[tei-council] FR 3106829 on <quote> and <floatingText> (was Re: (no subject))

Sun Apr 17 12:21:45 EDT 2011

Perhaps we could compromise on this?

It is important to distinguish the use of <floatingText> and <quote>. 
Whereas the semantics of <quote> imply that its content emanates from 
somewhere external to the current text, <floatingText> does not imply 
this. The <floatingText> element is simply used whenever the richer 
content model it provides is required to support mark up of a text or 
part of a text which is presented as a discrete inclusion within the 
text. Such an inclusion might resemble an enclosure or an attachment in 
the source document or an embedded story within a framing narrative, or 
it might simply appear as an explicit quotation. Hence the two elements 
may be used in combination: a <floatingText> may appear within a <quote> 
(when a text wich rich internal structure is quoted at length), and 
<floatingText> may also include one or more <quote> elements as part of 
its own structure, just like any text.

On 4/17/2011 10:55 AM, Laurent Romary wrote:
> I tend to agree with this. floatingText are sub-texts whose internal structure does not match that of the encompassing document. Call it syntaxic or not, I think we need to reflect this specificity without trying to make too much meaning of it.
> .
> Le 17 avr. 2011 à 16:09, Martin Mueller a écrit :
>
>> I am not sure whether this language really resolves the issues. How
>> floatingText relates to quote is one issue. But the deeper issue may be
>> when and whether to use floatingText in the first place. Is it a necessary
>> condition for floatingText that it "emanates from somewhere external to
>> the current text text" and what does "external" mean?
>>
>> Martin Holmes sidestepped the issue of "external" by saying that it was a
>> purely syntactic matter. Paul Schaffner in private correspondence talked
>> about "raisins in the oatmeal." Thus floatingText functions like the skin
>> of a raisin. Use it whenever you come across a raisin-like thing in your
>> text.
>>
>> Defining floatingText in such purely formal a manner suited me fine
>> because it solves a problem of encoding recurring patterns in
>> libretto-like texts, but I confessed to a "lingering sense" that this was
>> not quite right. I was comforted by Kevin's reassurance that nobody else
>> shared this lingering sense. But Lou seems to share it when he says that
>> "I don't like the implication that we cleanly distinguish 'semantic' and
>> 'syntactic' elements.
>>
>> Lou's revision postulates 'discrete inclusion' as a necessary condition
>> and the cited examples confirm that floatingText is something that comes
>> from the outside. If that is right, what do you do with textual "raisins"
>> that are not like enclosures or attachments but have a "rich internal
>> structure" that is not easily modeled within existing element rules?
>>
>> Let me return for a moment to an exchange from last October where I raised
>> the question how to encode something like the following, which is very
>> common in comic opera texts of the 18th century
>>
>> (Dialogue, unmarked)
>> A : I love you
>> B: I love you too
>>
>>
>> Duet (with title and typographical changes to mark its special staus)
>> A: I will love you forever
>> B: I will cherish you forever
>> AB: We will love and cherish each other forever
>>
>>
>> (Dialogue, unmarked)
>> A: Let's get married
>> B: Tomorrow
>>
>> Here the dialogue is the "oatmeal" and the duet is the "raisin." I
>> suggested three possible encodings, all of which parse:
>>
>>
>> 1. Turning the dialogue and duet sections into distinct div children to
>> get a fully tesselated structure
>> 2. Using floatingText to encode the duet
>> 3. Using<q type="duet">  with some combination of<sp>  and<lg>  and
>> possibly<label>
>>
>> Lou said that using q was tag abuse and that the duet wasn't really a
>> separate text. I agree with both of these judgments. Lou then made a
>> proposal for a "speechgroup" element, which has languished so far on
>> SourceForge.  It provides a particular solution for a particular kind of
>> raisin, but it does not offer a general solution for the recurring
>> phenomenon of bits of text that that have a 'rich internal structure' but
>> do not come from the outside.
>>
>> Putting the definitions of q and floatingText next to each other
>> highlights some aspects of that problem. What is the difference between
>> floatingText, which "contains a single text of any kind, whether unitary
>> or composite, which interrupts the text containing it at any point and
>> after which the surrounding text resumes"  and q, which "contains material
>> which is marked as (ostensibly) being somehow different than the
>> surrounding text for any one of a variety of reason including but not
>> limit to direct speech."
>>
>> Coming back to my musical numbers problem, you can model them as either q
>> or floatingText in ways that quite accurately represent the structure of
>> the particular "raisins." But neither feels quite right, and my sense is
>> that there areas of textual articulation or "set-offness" that are not
>> well served by the current elements and their rules.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 4/16/11 8:13 PM, "Kevin Hawkins"<kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This is good, but I think "or appear within  an explicit quotation"
>>> should be "or simply appear as an explicit quotation".  I've posted my
>>> slightly revised version in the ticket in SF.
>>>
>>> I think if there are no further objections, this is ready for
>>> implementation!
>>>
>>> On 4/15/11 3:37 PM, Lou Burnard wrote:
>>>> I don't like the implication that we cleanly distinguish "semantic" and
>>>> "syntactic" elements. All elements are both in some sense. So here's my
>>>> revision...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The semantics of<quote>   imply that its content emanates from somewhere
>>>> external to the current text. The<floatingText>   element, on the other
>>>> hand, is used whenever the richer content model it provides is required
>>>> to support mark up of a  document or part of a document which is
>>>> presented as a discrete inclusion within the text. Such an inclusion
>>>> might resemble an enclosure or an attachment, or an embedded story
>>>> within a framing narrative, or appear within  an explicit quotation.
>>>> Hence the two elements may be used in combination: a<floatingText>   may
>>>> appear within a<quote>, and may also of course include a<quote>   as
>>>> part of its own structure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/04/11 14:29, Kevin Hawkins wrote:
>>>>> I've done some further revisions, so this is the latest version of the
>>>>> proposal for how to handle feature request 3106829.
>>>>>
>>>>> ###
>>>>>
>>>>> Replace:
>>>>>
>>>>> The floatingText element should only be used for complete texts which
>>>>> form a part of the text being encoded. Where a character in one
>>>>> narrative quotes from some other text or narrative, fully or in part,
>>>>> the quote element discussed in 3.3.3 Quotation should be used instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> with:
>>>>>
>>>>> It is important to distinguish the use of<floatingText>    and<quote>.
>>>>> <quote>    is a semantic element for a passage attributed to an external
>>>>> agent, whereas<floatingText>    is a syntactic element and is used to
>>>>> provide rich internal structure for a text or part of a text which is
>>>>> included within the main text, such as an enclosure or attachment or
>>>>> simply a story within a frame narrative.  These elements may be used in
>>>>> combination. In the case of an extended quotation,<floatingText>    may
>>>>> be
>>>>> used as a child of<quote>.  On the other hand, there may be cases where
>>>>> a<floatingText>    includes one or more<quote>    elements as part of its
>>>>> structure.
>>>>>
>>>>> If there are no further comments in the next week, I can add this as a
>>>>> comment on the ticket.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>
> Laurent Romary
> INRIA&  HUB-IDSL
> laurent.romary at inria.fr
>
>
>