[tei-council] FR 3106829 on <quote> and <floatingText> (was Re: (no subject))
laurent.romary at inria.fr
Sun Apr 17 10:55:14 EDT 2011
I tend to agree with this. floatingText are sub-texts whose internal structure does not match that of the encompassing document. Call it syntaxic or not, I think we need to reflect this specificity without trying to make too much meaning of it.
Le 17 avr. 2011 à 16:09, Martin Mueller a écrit :
> I am not sure whether this language really resolves the issues. How
> floatingText relates to quote is one issue. But the deeper issue may be
> when and whether to use floatingText in the first place. Is it a necessary
> condition for floatingText that it "emanates from somewhere external to
> the current text text" and what does "external" mean?
> Martin Holmes sidestepped the issue of "external" by saying that it was a
> purely syntactic matter. Paul Schaffner in private correspondence talked
> about "raisins in the oatmeal." Thus floatingText functions like the skin
> of a raisin. Use it whenever you come across a raisin-like thing in your
> Defining floatingText in such purely formal a manner suited me fine
> because it solves a problem of encoding recurring patterns in
> libretto-like texts, but I confessed to a "lingering sense" that this was
> not quite right. I was comforted by Kevin's reassurance that nobody else
> shared this lingering sense. But Lou seems to share it when he says that
> "I don't like the implication that we cleanly distinguish 'semantic' and
> 'syntactic' elements.
> Lou's revision postulates 'discrete inclusion' as a necessary condition
> and the cited examples confirm that floatingText is something that comes
> from the outside. If that is right, what do you do with textual "raisins"
> that are not like enclosures or attachments but have a "rich internal
> structure" that is not easily modeled within existing element rules?
> Let me return for a moment to an exchange from last October where I raised
> the question how to encode something like the following, which is very
> common in comic opera texts of the 18th century
> (Dialogue, unmarked)
> A : I love you
> B: I love you too
> Duet (with title and typographical changes to mark its special staus)
> A: I will love you forever
> B: I will cherish you forever
> AB: We will love and cherish each other forever
> (Dialogue, unmarked)
> A: Let's get married
> B: Tomorrow
> Here the dialogue is the "oatmeal" and the duet is the "raisin." I
> suggested three possible encodings, all of which parse:
> 1. Turning the dialogue and duet sections into distinct div children to
> get a fully tesselated structure
> 2. Using floatingText to encode the duet
> 3. Using <q type="duet"> with some combination of <sp> and <lg> and
> possibly <label>
> Lou said that using q was tag abuse and that the duet wasn't really a
> separate text. I agree with both of these judgments. Lou then made a
> proposal for a "speechgroup" element, which has languished so far on
> SourceForge. It provides a particular solution for a particular kind of
> raisin, but it does not offer a general solution for the recurring
> phenomenon of bits of text that that have a 'rich internal structure' but
> do not come from the outside.
> Putting the definitions of q and floatingText next to each other
> highlights some aspects of that problem. What is the difference between
> floatingText, which "contains a single text of any kind, whether unitary
> or composite, which interrupts the text containing it at any point and
> after which the surrounding text resumes" and q, which "contains material
> which is marked as (ostensibly) being somehow different than the
> surrounding text for any one of a variety of reason including but not
> limit to direct speech."
> Coming back to my musical numbers problem, you can model them as either q
> or floatingText in ways that quite accurately represent the structure of
> the particular "raisins." But neither feels quite right, and my sense is
> that there areas of textual articulation or "set-offness" that are not
> well served by the current elements and their rules.
> On 4/16/11 8:13 PM, "Kevin Hawkins" <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info>
>> This is good, but I think "or appear within an explicit quotation"
>> should be "or simply appear as an explicit quotation". I've posted my
>> slightly revised version in the ticket in SF.
>> I think if there are no further objections, this is ready for
>> On 4/15/11 3:37 PM, Lou Burnard wrote:
>>> I don't like the implication that we cleanly distinguish "semantic" and
>>> "syntactic" elements. All elements are both in some sense. So here's my
>>> The semantics of<quote> imply that its content emanates from somewhere
>>> external to the current text. The<floatingText> element, on the other
>>> hand, is used whenever the richer content model it provides is required
>>> to support mark up of a document or part of a document which is
>>> presented as a discrete inclusion within the text. Such an inclusion
>>> might resemble an enclosure or an attachment, or an embedded story
>>> within a framing narrative, or appear within an explicit quotation.
>>> Hence the two elements may be used in combination: a<floatingText> may
>>> appear within a<quote>, and may also of course include a<quote> as
>>> part of its own structure.
>>> On 12/04/11 14:29, Kevin Hawkins wrote:
>>>> I've done some further revisions, so this is the latest version of the
>>>> proposal for how to handle feature request 3106829.
>>>> The floatingText element should only be used for complete texts which
>>>> form a part of the text being encoded. Where a character in one
>>>> narrative quotes from some other text or narrative, fully or in part,
>>>> the quote element discussed in 3.3.3 Quotation should be used instead.
>>>> It is important to distinguish the use of<floatingText> and<quote>.
>>>> <quote> is a semantic element for a passage attributed to an external
>>>> agent, whereas<floatingText> is a syntactic element and is used to
>>>> provide rich internal structure for a text or part of a text which is
>>>> included within the main text, such as an enclosure or attachment or
>>>> simply a story within a frame narrative. These elements may be used in
>>>> combination. In the case of an extended quotation,<floatingText> may
>>>> used as a child of<quote>. On the other hand, there may be cases where
>>>> a<floatingText> includes one or more<quote> elements as part of its
>>>> If there are no further comments in the next week, I can add this as a
>>>> comment on the ticket.
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