[tei-council] FR 3106829 on <quote> and <floatingText> (was Re: (no subject))

Sun Apr 17 13:03:40 EDT 2011

Is it a matter of compromise or stating clearly what we mean? If "coming
from the outside" is not a necessary condition of floatingText, the
examples should make this clear as well. The crucial sentence in your
paragraph might then read:

The <floatingText> element is simply used whenever the richer content
model it provides is required to support mark up of a text or part of a
text which presented as a discrete inclusion within the text. Such an
"inclusion" might consist of a text that is perceived as external to the
document, such as a letter, enclosure, or attachment. But it might also
consist of a "musical number" that is set off from its surrounding text in
the libretto of an opera.

I could live with something like that, but I'm not sure I have a good
answer to the person who asks in what way an aria in an opera libretto is
a "discrete inclusion."

On 4/17/11 11:21 AM, "Kevin Hawkins" <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info>
wrote:

>Perhaps we could compromise on this?
>
>It is important to distinguish the use of <floatingText> and <quote>.
>Whereas the semantics of <quote> imply that its content emanates from
>somewhere external to the current text, <floatingText> does not imply
>this. The <floatingText> element is simply used whenever the richer
>content model it provides is required to support mark up of a text or
>part of a text which is presented as a discrete inclusion within the
>text. Such an inclusion might resemble an enclosure or an attachment in
>the source document or an embedded story within a framing narrative, or
>it might simply appear as an explicit quotation. Hence the two elements
>may be used in combination: a <floatingText> may appear within a <quote>
>(when a text wich rich internal structure is quoted at length), and
><floatingText> may also include one or more <quote> elements as part of
>its own structure, just like any text.
>
>On 4/17/2011 10:55 AM, Laurent Romary wrote:
>> I tend to agree with this. floatingText are sub-texts whose internal
>>structure does not match that of the encompassing document. Call it
>>syntaxic or not, I think we need to reflect this specificity without
>>trying to make too much meaning of it.
>> .
>> Le 17 avr. 2011 à 16:09, Martin Mueller a écrit :
>>
>>> I am not sure whether this language really resolves the issues. How
>>> floatingText relates to quote is one issue. But the deeper issue may be
>>> when and whether to use floatingText in the first place. Is it a
>>>necessary
>>> condition for floatingText that it "emanates from somewhere external to
>>> the current text text" and what does "external" mean?
>>>
>>> Martin Holmes sidestepped the issue of "external" by saying that it
>>>was a
>>> purely syntactic matter. Paul Schaffner in private correspondence
>>>talked
>>> about "raisins in the oatmeal." Thus floatingText functions like the
>>>skin
>>> of a raisin. Use it whenever you come across a raisin-like thing in
>>>your
>>> text.
>>>
>>> Defining floatingText in such purely formal a manner suited me fine
>>> because it solves a problem of encoding recurring patterns in
>>> libretto-like texts, but I confessed to a "lingering sense" that this
>>>was
>>> not quite right. I was comforted by Kevin's reassurance that nobody
>>>else
>>> shared this lingering sense. But Lou seems to share it when he says
>>>that
>>> "I don't like the implication that we cleanly distinguish 'semantic'
>>>and
>>> 'syntactic' elements.
>>>
>>> Lou's revision postulates 'discrete inclusion' as a necessary condition
>>> and the cited examples confirm that floatingText is something that
>>>comes
>>> from the outside. If that is right, what do you do with textual
>>>"raisins"
>>> that are not like enclosures or attachments but have a "rich internal
>>> structure" that is not easily modeled within existing element rules?
>>>
>>> Let me return for a moment to an exchange from last October where I
>>>raised
>>> the question how to encode something like the following, which is very
>>> common in comic opera texts of the 18th century
>>>
>>> (Dialogue, unmarked)
>>> A : I love you
>>> B: I love you too
>>>
>>>
>>> Duet (with title and typographical changes to mark its special staus)
>>> A: I will love you forever
>>> B: I will cherish you forever
>>> AB: We will love and cherish each other forever
>>>
>>>
>>> (Dialogue, unmarked)
>>> A: Let's get married
>>> B: Tomorrow
>>>
>>> Here the dialogue is the "oatmeal" and the duet is the "raisin." I
>>> suggested three possible encodings, all of which parse:
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. Turning the dialogue and duet sections into distinct div children to
>>> get a fully tesselated structure
>>> 2. Using floatingText to encode the duet
>>> 3. Using<q type="duet">  with some combination of<sp>  and<lg>  and
>>> possibly<label>
>>>
>>> Lou said that using q was tag abuse and that the duet wasn't really a
>>> separate text. I agree with both of these judgments. Lou then made a
>>> proposal for a "speechgroup" element, which has languished so far on
>>> SourceForge.  It provides a particular solution for a particular kind
>>>of
>>> raisin, but it does not offer a general solution for the recurring
>>> phenomenon of bits of text that that have a 'rich internal structure'
>>>but
>>> do not come from the outside.
>>>
>>> Putting the definitions of q and floatingText next to each other
>>> highlights some aspects of that problem. What is the difference between
>>> floatingText, which "contains a single text of any kind, whether
>>>unitary
>>> or composite, which interrupts the text containing it at any point and
>>> after which the surrounding text resumes"  and q, which "contains
>>>material
>>> which is marked as (ostensibly) being somehow different than the
>>> surrounding text for any one of a variety of reason including but not
>>> limit to direct speech."
>>>
>>> Coming back to my musical numbers problem, you can model them as
>>>either q
>>> or floatingText in ways that quite accurately represent the structure
>>>of
>>> the particular "raisins." But neither feels quite right, and my sense
>>>is
>>> that there areas of textual articulation or "set-offness" that are not
>>> well served by the current elements and their rules.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 4/16/11 8:13 PM, "Kevin Hawkins"<kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is good, but I think "or appear within  an explicit quotation"
>>>> should be "or simply appear as an explicit quotation".  I've posted my
>>>> slightly revised version in the ticket in SF.
>>>>
>>>> I think if there are no further objections, this is ready for
>>>> implementation!
>>>>
>>>> On 4/15/11 3:37 PM, Lou Burnard wrote:
>>>>> I don't like the implication that we cleanly distinguish "semantic"
>>>>>and
>>>>> "syntactic" elements. All elements are both in some sense. So here's
>>>>>my
>>>>> revision...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The semantics of<quote>   imply that its content emanates from
>>>>>somewhere
>>>>> external to the current text. The<floatingText>   element, on the
>>>>>other
>>>>> hand, is used whenever the richer content model it provides is
>>>>>required
>>>>> to support mark up of a  document or part of a document which is
>>>>> presented as a discrete inclusion within the text. Such an inclusion
>>>>> might resemble an enclosure or an attachment, or an embedded story
>>>>> within a framing narrative, or appear within  an explicit quotation.
>>>>> Hence the two elements may be used in combination: a<floatingText>
>>>>>may
>>>>> appear within a<quote>, and may also of course include a<quote>   as
>>>>> part of its own structure.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/04/11 14:29, Kevin Hawkins wrote:
>>>>>> I've done some further revisions, so this is the latest version of
>>>>>>the
>>>>>> proposal for how to handle feature request 3106829.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ###
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Replace:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The floatingText element should only be used for complete texts
>>>>>>which
>>>>>> form a part of the text being encoded. Where a character in one
>>>>>> narrative quotes from some other text or narrative, fully or in
>>>>>>part,
>>>>>> the quote element discussed in 3.3.3 Quotation should be used
>>>>>>instead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> with:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is important to distinguish the use of<floatingText>
>>>>>>and<quote>.
>>>>>> <quote>    is a semantic element for a passage attributed to an
>>>>>>external
>>>>>> agent, whereas<floatingText>    is a syntactic element and is used
>>>>>>to
>>>>>> provide rich internal structure for a text or part of a text which
>>>>>>is
>>>>>> included within the main text, such as an enclosure or attachment or
>>>>>> simply a story within a frame narrative.  These elements may be
>>>>>>used in
>>>>>> combination. In the case of an extended quotation,<floatingText>
>>>>>>may
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> used as a child of<quote>.  On the other hand, there may be cases
>>>>>>where
>>>>>> a<floatingText>    includes one or more<quote>    elements as part
>>>>>>of its
>>>>>> structure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If there are no further comments in the next week, I can add this
>>>>>>as a
>>>>>> comment on the ticket.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>> Laurent Romary
>> INRIA&  HUB-IDSL
>> laurent.romary at inria.fr
>>
>>
>>
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