3.151 education and universities, cont.; journals (94)

Willard McCarty (MCCARTY@VM.EPAS.UTORONTO.CA)
Wed, 21 Jun 89 18:19:38 EDT


Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 3, No. 151. Wednesday, 21 Jun 1989.


(1) Date: Tue, 20 Jun 89 19:48:00 EDT (11 lines)
From: <BCJ@PSUVM.bitnet>
Subject: Re: 3.146 education and universities, cont. (68)

(2) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 89 12:49:36 EDT (41 lines)
From: Geoff Rockwell <rockwell@utorgpu>
Subject: Re: 3.146 education and universities, cont. (68)

(3) Date: Wed, 21 Jun 89 10:15:00 EDT (16 lines)
From: unh!psc90!jdg@uunet.UU.NET (Dr. Joel Goldfield)
Subject: "Learned journals"

(1) --------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 89 19:48:00 EDT
From: <BCJ@PSUVM.bitnet>
Subject: Re: 3.146 education and universities, cont. (68)

Perhaps I'm naive in this regard, but, _pace_ N. Miller, the notion of
making what appears to be a mutually exclusive division between virtue (as a
scheme of personal values) and justice (a scheme of social values) makes me
very uncomfortable.

Perhaps what I'm trying to say is that my ideal university seeks to combine
the two enquiries. -K. Berland
(2) --------------------------------------------------------------46----
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 89 12:49:36 EDT
From: Geoff Rockwell <rockwell@utorgpu>
Subject: Re: 3.146 education and universities, cont. (68)

It seems to me that teaching virtue is unlike other subjects. The problem
of what virtue is, and hence the problem of whether it can be taught haunt
any teaching of virtue. If Socrates can be said to have taught virtue,
something he would have contested, it is by making the teaching of
virtue an issue. This is unlike the teaching of WordPerfect, in that no one
discusses the possibility that WordPerfect cannot be taught in a WordPerfect
course. (Except the poor soul that has to teach it.) While the teachability of
WordPerfect is not an issue when WordPerfect is being taught, it is
when virtue is being taught. In fact, the Socratic dialogues and our
discussion on Humanist suggest that, only by making the nature of virtue and
the possibility of its instruction an issue, can it be taught, if at all.
(In the "Meno" Socrates ends up by ironically suggesting that virtue can
only be aquired by divine inspiration.)

Aristotle and the Athenian Stranger in Plato's "Laws" offer a more
satisfying answer. Both argue that virtue is a combination of disposition
(being disposed to be virtuous if you can understand what it is) and
education. The disposition to virtue is trained while the understanding of
the virtue is taught. Training takes place at home and in primary schools,
when the student is young. A student that is not disposed to be virtuous
will not profit from any education later on. Such a student, if ill
disposed, may abuse the education (become a sophist or an purveyor of
virtue.)

I suspect that Aristotle is right, that no amount of education at
the college level will teach virtue to someone who is not so disposed. Few
students who get to that level, however, will be viciously disposed, so there
is hope. (High school teachers have a tendency to flunk students with "bad
attitudes.") Is it then possible to teach those who are not vicious? I think
Socrates would argue that we have to reverse the question. We have to ask of
ourselves, "is it possible to learn to be virtuous?" Taking this question
seriously and sharing our concern with our students is the closest we can
get. Who wants to claim they know what virtue is, such that they can say
whether it can be taught?

Yours Geoffrey Rockwell
rockwell@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
(3) --------------------------------------------------------------20----
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 89 10:15:00 EDT
From: unh!psc90!jdg@uunet.UU.NET (Dr. Joel Goldfield)
Subject: "Learned journals"

At the same time that I relish our discussion of values and of how ostensibly
extremist positions begin to resemble each other, I'd like not to lose
the thread of an intriguing subject: the intellectual (if not ideolo-
gical) value/s of our learned journals. Perhaps someone can suggest a
publication along the lines of a university's apparently, but not always,
superfluous "Committee on Committees." That is to say, is there a
forum where we may all discuss the relative and absolute value/s of our
journals by discipline? If the subject interests you, I'd relish
a comparison of the MLJ, FLAnnals, PMLA, MLN, CALICO Journal, System,
and other notable acronyms.
--Joel D. Goldfield
J_GOLDFI@UNHH.BITNET