Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 17, No. 30.
Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London
www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/humanist/
Submit to: humanist@princeton.edu
[1] From: rddescha <rddescha@DAL.CA> (10)
Subject: RE: FWD: 17.029 nested narrative? bibliographies of
didactics & ICT in literature?
[2] From: Patricia Galloway <galloway@ischool.utexas.edu> (9)
Subject: Re: 17.029 nested narrative
[3] From: John Lavagnino <John.Lavagnino@kcl.ac.uk> (16)
Subject: Re: 17.029 nested narrative?
[4] From: "David L. Hoover" <david.hoover@verizon.net> (24)
Subject: Re: 17.029 nested narrative? bibliographies of
didactics & ICT inliterature?
[5] From: johnsone7@sio.midco.net (6)
Subject: Re: nested narrative?
[6] From: Willard McCarty <willard.mccarty@kcl.ac.uk> (34)
Subject: narrative nesting
--[1]------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:10:32 +0100
From: rddescha <rddescha@DAL.CA>
Subject: RE: FWD: 17.029 nested narrative? bibliographies of
didactics & ICT in literature?
Sorry I am not following this list, but a colleague forwarded this message to
me and I thought I could help a little.
One of the tales in _Arabian Nights_ (Arabic et. al. tradition -- and I don't
think this particular tale is one of the "orphan" tales) goes well beyond
three levels. I think its called "Fisherman and Genie"
Also, I think Thomas King's _Green Grass, Running Water_ (Cherokee tradition)
gets quite complicated with the nested narratives, running at least three
levels (if not more) AND having simultaneous plots running to boot.
Ryan. . .
Ryan Deschamps
MLIS/MPA Candidate -- Faculty of Management, Dalhousie University
--[2]------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:11:27 +0100
From: Patricia Galloway <galloway@ischool.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: 17.029 nested narrative
Re nested narrative--a zillion years ago I wrote this about logical nesting
that is indirectly relevant to Wendell's question in such a way that it may
relate to the confusion of such nesting (I've scanned it in case people
find it not very accessible in physical form):
Yngve's Depth Hypothesis and the structure of narrative: the example of
detective fiction. In Maxine McCafferty and Kathleen Gray (eds.), The
Analysis of Meaning: Informatics 5, 104-109. ASLIB, London, 1979. (see
<http://www.gslis.utexas.edu/%7Egalloway/aslib2.pdf>http://www.gslis.utexas.edu/%7Egalloway/aslib2.pdf)
Patricia Galloway
University of Texas-Austin
--[3]------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:11:53 +0100
From: John Lavagnino <John.Lavagnino@kcl.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: 17.029 nested narrative?
There's a (non-oral) example of nested narrative in Joseph Conrad that
goes four levels deep. In his novel Chance, there's a point in Part I
where these stories are all going at once:
We're hearing the tale of Mr Powell, who was second mate under
Captain Anthony; this is interrupted by Marlow for the story of:
Marlow's acquaintance with the Fynes, and presence on the scene
when the elopement of Flora de Barral with Captain Anthony is
revealed; he pauses in the middle of this story to tell us about:
The financier de Barral, Flora's father, in his heyday; this
is mostly not firsthand, but Marlow interrupts this account to
tell us about:
His private-financier acquaintance through whom he once met
de Barral, or at least had a chance to observe him closely.
Now an objective judge would have to say that this book consigns Homer
to the dustbin of history.
John Lavagnino
Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London
--[4]------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:12:50 +0100
From: "David L. Hoover" <david.hoover@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: 17.029 nested narrative? bibliographies of didactics
& ICT inliterature?
I can't add anything to Wendell's comment about deeply nested narrative in
Homer or other oral narrative, but Chaucer has no trouble with five levels in
the Nun's Priest's Tale, depending on just how you are counting.
That is, Chaucer tells the Canterbury Tales in which
the Nun's Priest tells the story of Chauntecleer and Pertelote, in which
Chauntecler's narrative about dreams includes a story in which
Cicero tells about a man who has a dream in which
the man's friend appears and tells about the friend's own murder.
And four levels are, I think, quite common in Chaucer.
Although it is a bit more doubtful, there may be four levels in the
Anglo-Saxon Dream of the Rood, which is presumably closer to oral tradition
(it is a VERY old poem):
the poet tells writes a poem in which
a dreamer tells about his dream in which
the cross speaks to him about its suffering
and (perhaps) reports God's words
Good hunting,
David Hoover
David L. Hoover, Assoc. Chair & Webmaster
NYU Eng. Dept., 212-998-8832 http://www.nyu.edu/gsas/dept/english/
"We easily perceive that the peoples furthest from civilization are the ones
where equality between man and woman are the furthest apart and consider
this one of the signs of savagery. But we are so stupid that we can't see that
we thus plainly admit that no civilization can be perfect until exact equality
between man and woman is included." (Mark Twain's Notebook, 1895)
--[5]------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:13:21 +0100
From: johnsone7@sio.midco.net
Subject: Re: nested narrative?
In answer to Wendell's question, Emily bronte's _Wuthering Heights_ comes
to mind. In one spot (page 118 of my Riverside paperback) Lockwood is
telling the story that Nelly told him and she quotes a letter from Isabella
that quotes Hindley and he quotes Heathcliff. That is five levels deep (I
think).
-- Eric Johnson
--[6]------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 07:14:35 +0100
From: Willard McCarty <willard.mccarty@kcl.ac.uk>
Subject: narrative nesting
This in response to Wendell Piez's question about locating nested narratives.
One example is provided by Ovid's Metamorphoses. In some places how many
levels one can say there are is a matter for interpretation, but in places
I count at least 5, in others possibly 7. An example of the former is the
so-called Aeneid (i.e. the story of Aeneas's wanderings) 13.623-14.608.
Several stories there go 4 deep, one goes 5 levels down: inside the Aeneid
is the story at Caieta 14.154-444, inside of which is Macareus &
Achaemenides 14.158-440, inside of which is Polyphemus 14.165-222 and the
Laestrygonians and Circe 14.223-440, inside of which is Picus 14.132-434.
There are two more of those in book 14 and another in book 15. See
http://www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/wlm/analyticalonomasticon/base/narrative.html
for my handy chart. But as in so many other cases, declaring anything to be
thus-and-so in the Met is very tricky. But then perhaps what you want is a
bag of hard tricks.
Another example is certainly in The Saragossa Manuscript, a film by
Wojciech Has (for which see http://www.cowboybi.com/saragossa/main.htm)
based on the 19C novel by Jan Potocki. This has to be one of the most
interesting and intricate films I have ever seen. (I caught it during my
undergraduate days at Reed College, when one or two prints were making the
underground scene at colleges and universities in the U.S.) The film is
also available on DVD, it seems, via (of course) amazon.com. (He turns
aside to do a one-click.) All, apparently, thanks to Jerry Garcia. Anyhow,
at one point, if counting from those days can be trusted, I counted 7
levels. Furthermore, on the 7th level, characters from other levels show
up, and then things really become complex.
I suspect but do not know that such intercalation (the technical term,
about which some has been written by Ovidians) is commonplace in Near
Eastern narrative traditions. I would ask someone who knows his or her way
around Arabic literature.
I also note that intercalation together with the epic convention of "in medias
res" (as in Homer) are two very ancient ways of playing against so-called
linear
narrative. Flashbacks are another; a milder form of that would be embedded
reminiscences; milder yet references to previous events and occasions;
mildest of
all, perhaps, word-meanings that evoke past times in the reader. I wonder how
commonplace strictly linear narratives actually are. Are there any that are
*strictly*
linear, or is this a rather unproductive notion of the hypertext
evangelists? How can
one tell the difference between a story and a reference to a story? In a
number of
places in Ovid's Met the difference seems purely arbitrary, i.e. a matter
of counting
words and lines.
Yours,
WM
Dr Willard McCarty | Senior Lecturer | Centre for Computing in the
Humanities | King's College London | Strand | London WC2R 2LS || +44 (0)20
7848-2784 fax: -2980 || willard.mccarty@kcl.ac.uk
www.kcl.ac.uk/humanities/cch/wlm/
This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : Thu May 22 2003 - 02:41:48 EDT