6.0612 Rs: Dislocation; Illogical Constructions (4/86)

Elaine Brennan (EDITORS@BROWNVM.BITNET)
Mon, 22 Mar 1993 14:28:31 EST

Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 6, No. 0612. Monday, 22 Mar 1993.


(1) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 93 12:49:24 PST (11 lines)
From: Joseph Jones <USERLJOE@UBCMTSL.BITNET>
Subject: Dislocation, Bisociation

(2) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 17:09:51 -0800 (PST) (24 lines)
From: Paul Pascal <paulpasc@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Illogical constructions

(3) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 15:27:10 EST (18 lines)
From: Eric Rabkin <USERGDFD@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject: Illogical constructions/Irish bulls

(4) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 21:44:02 IST (33 lines)
From: "David M. Schaps" <F21004@BARILVM>
Subject: Re: 6.0607 Qs: Illogical Constructions

(1) --------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 93 12:49:24 PST
From: Joseph Jones <USERLJOE@UBCMTSL.BITNET>
Subject: Dislocation, Bisociation

Regarding the multiplicity of English vocabulary. While not
limited to the noun/adjective pattern that Marchand points out,
the entry under Bisociation in the Oxford Companion to the
English Language may be of interest.

Joseph Jones - University of British Columbia Library
jjones@library.ubc.ca
(2) --------------------------------------------------------------40----
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 17:09:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Pascal <paulpasc@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Illogical constructions

With reference to David Hoekema's query about such illogicalities as "I
could care less," there is a list of such items under the rubric STURDY
INDEFENSIBLES in H. W. Fowler's *Dictionary of Modern English Usage*.
This includes, for example, "I should not be surprised if it didn't
rain." My own favorite is from an old popular "cowboy" song: "That song
ain't so very far from wrong"--meaning it is absolutely right. Such
incongruities used to be called Irish bulls, for reasons perhaps better
left unexamined so soon after St. Patrick's Day. Many dictionaries (for
example, the American Heritage and Webster's New International Second
Ed.) still recognize the term and give amusing examples. If a better name
is to be coined, perhaps *Marxism* would do, as they were very popular
with the Marx Brothers, especially Chico.

Paul Pascal
Professor Emeritus, Classics DH-10
University of Washington / Seattle WA 98195
paulpasc@u.washington.edu



(3) --------------------------------------------------------------27----
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 15:27:10 EST
From: Eric Rabkin <USERGDFD@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject: Illogical constructions/Irish bulls

David Hoekema asks what one calls "illogical constructions" that
we nonetheless understand immediately, like
> --"Haven't you ever seen ?Comedian X?? He's just like Steve Martin, only
> more so."
> --"It doesn't matter--it's the same difference."
> --"I could care less what happens to her."
They're called "Irish bulls." That goes without saying.
Eric

Eric Rabkin esrabkin@umichum.bitnet
Department of English esrabkin@um.cc.umich.edu
University of Michigan office : 313-764-2553
Ann Arbor MI 48109-1045 dept : 313-764-6330
voice msgs: 313-763-3128
(4) --------------------------------------------------------------40----
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 93 21:44:02 IST
From: "David M. Schaps" <F21004@BARILVM>
Subject: Re: 6.0607 Qs: Housing in London; Illogical Constructions

"The same difference", I presume, is a simple malapropism (if th is
the correct term) made up by conflation of two synonymous expressions
(here "it's all the same" or "there's no difference"). Similar are
such terms as "irregardless" and the one our teacher always
excoriated, "the reason is because".
As for "I could care less", I was always bothered by it when a
person dear to me (my father-in-law) used to use it. I finally came
up with a rationalization: "No amount of consideration of the matter
will make me care more about it. I could only care less." Not, I think,
very likely to be historically accurate as the source of the phrase.
I note only that certain phrases with "not" seem to confuse people:
whether, for example, a person who says "I am afraid he will not come"
will be afraid if he does or does not come is a matter that seems to
vary from language to language. In Greek, it could produce double
negatives, and expressions which mean the same when negated as when
asserted. The same, for that matter, is true of colloquial English,
where "He don't got nothing" and "Nothing is what he's got" mean the
same. In Hebrew, "Klum" "Lo Klum" and "v'lo Klum" all mean the same,
although technically the first is "nothing", the second "not nothing",
and the third "and not nothing". It's the same difference. But why
should caring less cause such confusion? Maybe because of the implied
negation in "less". Or maybe I should just admit to not knowing
nothing.

David M. Schaps
Department of Classical Studies
Bar Ilan University
Ramat Gan, Israel
FAX: 972-3-347-601