[tei-council] "global" @source [was Re: Fwd: RE: @resp]

Thu May 30 13:21:57 EDT 2013

I tend to agree. Shall we find a temporary space to collect use-cases 
and see if we can collate them into coherent groups? I have a bunch of 
people outside council who have specific use-cases for @source, and we 
should look at these alongside yours.

G

On 30/05/2013 13:12, Martin Holmes wrote:
> On 13-05-30 09:58 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote:
>> So when you say you have this in hand, you mean you intend to come up
>> with a full proposal for which new elements/classes you would like @resp
>> to be available on?
>
> I was tasked with adding some use-cases from a variety of contexts
> supporting my contention that @resp ought to be available in lots of
> places. Personally, I still think it's simpler and cleaner to add it to
> att.global, but there is substantial resistance to that, so I guess
> we're going to end up with a list of classes or elements that meet the
> use-cases. I think att.sourced is a similar case; at the moment, it's
> only available on quote q writing egXML, but I can see arguments that it
> should be much more widely available too. Your final comment on the
> ticket suggests that it's @source that you need, rather than @resp. I
> think the arguments tend to go in parallel for these two attributes; for
> instance:
>
> <pron resp="#fred"> (Fred is responsible for attesting to this
> pronunciation)
>
> <pron source="#lass"> (The biblio item "lass" is the source of this
> pronunciation)
>
> So I think we should broaden the ticket and handle both together. We're
> talking about _attribution_ of two different kinds; perhaps there's an
> argument for att.attribution or some such thing.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>>
>> Should we discuss @source separately, or in parallel?
>>
>> G
>>
>> On 30/05/2013 12:15, Martin Holmes wrote:
>>> I have an open ticket on @resp:
>>>
>>> <http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/443/>
>>>
>>> which I haven't had time to proceed with. I do have it in hand, though.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Martin
>>>
>>> On 13-05-30 07:42 AM, James Cummings wrote:
>>>> On 30/05/13 15:31, Gabriel Bodard wrote:
>>>>> I don't think there's a ticket for this yet (please correct me if I've
>>>>> missed it) but this question (of making @source (a) available more
>>>>> widely than just on quote, egXML, etc., and (b) expanding its semantics
>>>>> to the source of a piece of information, datum, translation, encoding
>>>>> rather than just a quotation) is intimately tied up with
>>>>> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/443/ (on making @resp
>>>>> more widely available).
>>>>>
>>>>> As I understand and remember it, we had gotten as far as agreeing that
>>>>> both @resp and @source would usefully be more widely available than they
>>>>> currently are. (We would probably also agree that neither of these
>>>>> should be technically global attributes.) But how do we go forward to a
>>>>> decision somewhere in between the two extremes?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I seem to remember specifically quite some resistance to the
>>>> idea that either of these be truly made global.
>>>>
>>>>> I think the way forward is to collect (in a ticket? in a wiki page? in
>>>>> emails to the list/to me?) specific and documented use-cases of elements
>>>>> which we need to be able to attribute to a particular encoder, or whose
>>>>> content we need to attribute to a bibliographical source somewhere. From
>>>>> these examples, we should try to come up with a coherent proposal for
>>>>> the extension of both of these attributes.
>>>>
>>>> I've not personally got any use-cases to hand where I've felt I
>>>> needed this, but agree with some of the arguments for extending
>>>> it more widely. I'm really not sure how to implement that
>>>> sensibly or where to draw the line in this case.
>>>>
>>>> -James
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Does this seem reasonable? Does anyone else want to collate this
>>>>> information? Any preference as to where/how we do this? (Do we need a
>>>>> new ticket alongside FR 443, or should we have both conversations
>>>>> together in there?)
>>>>>
>>>>> Gabby
>>>>>
>>>>> On 02/02/2013 14:39, Gabriel Bodard wrote:
>>>>>> Surely the definition of @source only contains the word "quotation"
>>>>>> because it was designed for <q>, <quote>, etc. If we consider it a
>>>>>> suitable mechanism for indicating the bibliographic source of a set of
>>>>>> dimensions, for example, then that definition would have to change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Aside: when marking up apparatus criticus, I use @resp to point to
>>>>>> bibiographical references for readings and conjectures, not to persons.
>>>>>> Does this mean @source would be more appropriate for this use?]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> G
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 02/02/2013 19:14, James Cummings wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can see att.responsibility being made available more generally
>>>>>>> (I'm very reluctant to say globally until I've really sat down
>>>>>>> and thought about the implications of that...) I understand it
>>>>>>> may have once(?) been intended for editorial intrusions into a
>>>>>>> transcription or edition but believe we've generalised out such
>>>>>>> indications to refer to any markup or encoding.  Maybe it was
>>>>>>> always intended as such.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can see arguments for @source (which is where this started
>>>>>>> right?) on more things and that att.editLike should get it from
>>>>>>> the att.source class.  But, I think we have to be careful that it
>>>>>>> is available only on things which can be classified as containing
>>>>>>> a 'quotation or citation' in some way since it "provides a
>>>>>>> pointer to the bibliographical source from which a quotation or
>>>>>>> citation is drawn."  Either that, or this definition would have
>>>>>>> to be changed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why does egXML get @source and not eg incidentally?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -James
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 02/02/13 18:27, Gabriel Bodard wrote:
>>>>>>>> Seconded.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I (as I pointed out in another venue recently) am regularly surprised to
>>>>>>>> re-learn that @resp isn't global already. I can't imagine any element
>>>>>>>> that I would not want to be able to say either who is responsible for
>>>>>>>> the decisions it represents, or from what publication the information so
>>>>>>>> tagged comes. (Certainly everything in msDesc, as well as editLike, at
>>>>>>>> the very least.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> G
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 02/02/2013 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 13-02-02 02:47 AM, Lou Burnard wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Tomaz has a good point here. Presumably att.editLike should inherit the
>>>>>>>>>> @source attribute from att.sourced ?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am waiting for someone to want @source to be added to att.global...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And that would be me. I can imagine a use-case for virtually any
>>>>>>>>> element. I'd also like @resp to be global, incidentally -- same
>>>>>>>>> argument. I need to assign responsibility for <pron>, <seg>, <def> and
>>>>>>>>> all sorts of other bits and pieces in a dictionary project I'm working on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>> Martin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: @resp
>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:09:19 +0100
>>>>>>>>>> From: Tomaz Erjavec <tomaz.erjavec at ijs.si>
>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Lou Burnard' <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> CC: <TEI-L at LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> @source is the only attribute defined in the att.source class (with
>>>>>>>>>> quote q writing egXML as members).
>>>>>>>>>> But @source is also defined (directly, not via class) as an attribute of
>>>>>>>>>> att.editLike, so in fact quite a lot of other elements already have it.
>>>>>>>>>> Is there any particular reason that it is defined in two different
>>>>>>>>>> places? I'd say it only confuses things.
>>>>>>>>>> And, yes, it would probably be a good idea to have source on even more
>>>>>>>>>> elements, e.g. person and all its descendants.
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>> Tomaž
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

-- 
Dr Gabriel BODARD
Researcher in Digital Epigraphy

Department of Digital Humanities
King's College London
26-29 Drury Lane
London WC2B 5RL

E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk
T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388

http://www.digitalclassicist.org/
http://www.currentepigraphy.org/