From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 1 06:08:21 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 11:08:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] /@absolute and dateTime values In-Reply-To: <20706.23954.938588.700568@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <50E2165F.304@uvic.ca> <20706.23954.938588.700568@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <50E2C3A5.3020907@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 01/01/13 03:52, Syd Bauman wrote: > I think your analysis is pretty correct, although I reach a slightly > different conclusion. Twas ever thus.... just for the record, I think it might be better to make the example conform to the documentation, i.e. reinstate the "+01:00" rather than removing the reference to BST. The comment on should make explicit that this is not required in the (more usual) circumstance where the times in the timeline are just relative to a specified , which is not itself absolutely located in time. This is the only situation in which one might care about the date, or time zone, of course. > > * The "BST" is leftover from P4, when it was specified in the > absolute=. I don't know how it got dropped. Seems to me the value > of absolute= in that example in TS should have been 12:20:01+01:00. > > * While you're right, and in many cases the note in data.temporal.w3c > is right, in many (if not most) cases where we can imagine > being used, dates (and for that matter time zones) are > simply irrelevant. In many (if not most) cases, although the times > might be compared, they're only going to be compared to other > in the same timeline, or other s in the same > corpus. Thus requiring a date (IMHO) would be silly. > > So my first reaction is that think we should drop the "BST", and > re-iterate the warning that if you expect the values in your timeline > to be compared to other values out there in the world, you should > include a date and timezone. > >> This bit of Chapter 8: >> >> >> >> contains this example: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> with the following commentary: >> >> "... TS-P1 is located absolutely, at 12:20:01:01 BST. TS-P2 is 4.5 >> seconds later than TS-P2 (i.e. at 12:20:46)..." >> >> I was first of all puzzled by the assertion that this is BST (British >> Summer Time). Nothing in the example suggests that there is any >> timezone offset from UTC, which I assumed was the default. Then I >> looked at the datatype for @absolute, which is data.temporal.w3c, >> about which we say in a note: >> >> "If it is likely that the value used is to be compared with another, >> then a time zone indicator should always be included, and only the >> dateTime representation should be used." >> >> >> >> So in this context, the xsd:dateTime representation should be used, >> and it should include a timezone. So I looked at the W3C spec: >> >> >> >> which, as I read it, requires the presence of a date; whereas our >> example has only a time. >> >> It seems to me, therefore, that this usage of @absolute is wrong on >> two counts: first, it should include a date, and second, it ought to >> have a timezone offset of 'Z', the canonical representation for an >> offset of zero, i.e. UTC. Further, I think the claim that this value >> is BST makes no sense (BST is UTC+1) given that the example has no >> timezone offset in it. >> >> Am I missing anything here? From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jan 1 13:27:51 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 10:27:51 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] /@absolute and dateTime values In-Reply-To: <20706.23954.938588.700568@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <50E2165F.304@uvic.ca> <20706.23954.938588.700568@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <50E32AA7.2070005@uvic.ca> That makes sense, and I'll make the relevant changes. This text, though: "If it is likely that the value used is to be compared with another, then a time zone indicator should always be included, and only the dateTime representation should be used." needs to be changed a bit to make it clear that what we mean here is comparison with an external datetime source, because in a TEI , as shown in the example below, the @absolute value is arguably always being compared with other internal values such as those specified in @interval. Cheers, Martin On 12-12-31 07:52 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: > I think your analysis is pretty correct, although I reach a slightly > different conclusion. > > * The "BST" is leftover from P4, when it was specified in the > absolute=. I don't know how it got dropped. Seems to me the value > of absolute= in that example in TS should have been 12:20:01+01:00. > > * While you're right, and in many cases the note in data.temporal.w3c > is right, in many (if not most) cases where we can imagine > being used, dates (and for that matter time zones) are > simply irrelevant. In many (if not most) cases, although the times > might be compared, they're only going to be compared to other > in the same timeline, or other s in the same > corpus. Thus requiring a date (IMHO) would be silly. > > So my first reaction is that think we should drop the "BST", and > re-iterate the warning that if you expect the values in your timeline > to be compared to other values out there in the world, you should > include a date and timezone. > >> This bit of Chapter 8: >> >> >> >> contains this example: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> with the following commentary: >> >> "... TS-P1 is located absolutely, at 12:20:01:01 BST. TS-P2 is 4.5 >> seconds later than TS-P2 (i.e. at 12:20:46)..." >> >> I was first of all puzzled by the assertion that this is BST (British >> Summer Time). Nothing in the example suggests that there is any >> timezone offset from UTC, which I assumed was the default. Then I >> looked at the datatype for @absolute, which is data.temporal.w3c, >> about which we say in a note: >> >> "If it is likely that the value used is to be compared with another, >> then a time zone indicator should always be included, and only the >> dateTime representation should be used." >> >> >> >> So in this context, the xsd:dateTime representation should be used, >> and it should include a timezone. So I looked at the W3C spec: >> >> >> >> which, as I read it, requires the presence of a date; whereas our >> example has only a time. >> >> It seems to me, therefore, that this usage of @absolute is wrong on >> two counts: first, it should include a date, and second, it ought to >> have a timezone offset of 'Z', the canonical representation for an >> offset of zero, i.e. UTC. Further, I think the claim that this value >> is BST makes no sense (BST is UTC+1) given that the example has no >> timezone offset in it. >> >> Am I missing anything here? From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jan 1 14:07:16 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 11:07:16 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] without timing information? Message-ID: <50E333E4.3080807@uvic.ca> Take a look at this block from Chapter 8: -------------------- Where the whole of one or another utterance is to be synchronized, the start and end attributes may be used: I used to smoke a lot more than this but I never inhaled the smoke You used to smoke [...] If synchronization with specific timing information is required, a timeline must be included: I used to smoke a lot more than this but I never inhaled the smoke You used to smoke ----------------- The expanded version with is introduced explicitly to show "specific timing information", but it doesn't seem to do so; there's no @absolute or @interval, and as far as I can see, the addition of provides no benefit to the encoding. I think this is a simple omission, which could be remedied by adding appropriate timing info, like this: I used to smoke a lot more than this but I never inhaled the smoke You used to smoke Have I misunderstood, or should I go ahead and make this change? Cheers, Martin From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed Jan 2 09:04:50 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 09:04:50 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] January TEI Release In-Reply-To: <50DB51AB.1060200@uvic.ca> References: <50DB4D17.2050209@it.ox.ac.uk> <50DB51AB.1060200@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50E43E82.40703@ultraslavonic.info> I've just noticed that the Oxford Jenkins is outdated. You'll notice that the citation including "Historical Social Research" contains biblScopes outside of imprint at http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CO.html but they are still inside the imprint at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CO.html#COBI The relevant change was committed on November 3! --Kevin On 12/26/12 2:36 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > When you read the chapter of your birth month (good idea, James), it's > best to read one of the current Jenkins build versions: > > > > > > (one at Oxford, one at UVic, both hopefully identical) so that you're > reading the very latest build, including any changes since the last > release. Differences will be minor, but it is most important to proof > the latest changes, which are only in the Jenkins builds. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 12-12-26 11:16 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Hugh mentions that 17 January might be a good day for him to do a >> TEI release and it is a day that I'm relatively free as well. >> >> Could I propose that we _try_ to stop any schema-affecting >> changes to the TEI SVN repository on the evening of the 15th >> January? (obvious exceptions being solving bugs introduced in >> the run up to that, typos, etc.) >> >> Also, some time before then, could everyone read the chapter >> whose number is the same as the month of their birth. (I.e. my >> birthdate is in December, like Lou's, so we'll both read chapter >> 12). >> >> I'm not in any way thinking this will get us a good complete >> coverage, but at least means some spot proofreading will be done >> and means we don't need to come up with a set list of >> assignments, etc. Obviously any typos, lack of clarity, etc. can >> just be corrected. Anything you think warrants a ticket, should >> be created. >> >> I've assigned the open SF bugs without ticket owners (only a >> handful) and will be doing so with the SF feature requests soon. >> >> -James >> > From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Jan 2 14:22:09 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 11:22:09 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] January TEI Release In-Reply-To: <50E43E82.40703@ultraslavonic.info> References: <50DB4D17.2050209@it.ox.ac.uk> <50DB51AB.1060200@uvic.ca> <50E43E82.40703@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <50E488E1.8060109@uvic.ca> Well spotted, and especially so because if you hadn't noticed, we might have released from the Oxford Jinks build and had another bad release experience. I don't know what would cause this, but the Oxford Jinks has been down a couple of times recently (once yesterday). I think only Sebastian has admin access. Might be time to nuke the workspace of the P5 job and make it do a fresh checkout. I wonder if we should set something up to check whether the two servers are producing identical products? It would be good to run that before a release, just to be sure. The two servers are supposed to act as a check on each other, but if they're producing different results we would currently only notice by accident. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-02 06:04 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > I've just noticed that the Oxford Jenkins is outdated. > > You'll notice that the citation including "Historical Social Research" > contains biblScopes outside of imprint at > > http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CO.html > > but they are still inside the imprint at > > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CO.html#COBI > > The relevant change was committed on November 3! > > --Kevin > > On 12/26/12 2:36 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> When you read the chapter of your birth month (good idea, James), it's >> best to read one of the current Jenkins build versions: >> >> >> >> >> >> (one at Oxford, one at UVic, both hopefully identical) so that you're >> reading the very latest build, including any changes since the last >> release. Differences will be minor, but it is most important to proof >> the latest changes, which are only in the Jenkins builds. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 12-12-26 11:16 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Hugh mentions that 17 January might be a good day for him to do a >>> TEI release and it is a day that I'm relatively free as well. >>> >>> Could I propose that we _try_ to stop any schema-affecting >>> changes to the TEI SVN repository on the evening of the 15th >>> January? (obvious exceptions being solving bugs introduced in >>> the run up to that, typos, etc.) >>> >>> Also, some time before then, could everyone read the chapter >>> whose number is the same as the month of their birth. (I.e. my >>> birthdate is in December, like Lou's, so we'll both read chapter >>> 12). >>> >>> I'm not in any way thinking this will get us a good complete >>> coverage, but at least means some spot proofreading will be done >>> and means we don't need to come up with a set list of >>> assignments, etc. Obviously any typos, lack of clarity, etc. can >>> just be corrected. Anything you think warrants a ticket, should >>> be created. >>> >>> I've assigned the open SF bugs without ticket owners (only a >>> handful) and will be doing so with the SF feature requests soon. >>> >>> -James >>> >> From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 2 14:33:55 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 19:33:55 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] January TEI Release In-Reply-To: <50E43E82.40703@ultraslavonic.info> References: <50DB4D17.2050209@it.ox.ac.uk> <50DB51AB.1060200@uvic.ca>,<50E43E82.40703@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: That's deeply disturbing. I'd like to analyse how this happened before I just do a deep clean Carved in stone on my iPad On 2 Jan 2013, at 14:04, "Kevin Hawkins" wrote: > I've just noticed that the Oxford Jenkins is outdated. > > You'll notice that the citation including "Historical Social Research" > contains biblScopes outside of imprint at > > http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CO.html > > but they are still inside the imprint at > > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CO.html#COBI > > The relevant change was committed on November 3! > > --Kevin > > On 12/26/12 2:36 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> When you read the chapter of your birth month (good idea, James), it's >> best to read one of the current Jenkins build versions: >> >> >> >> >> >> (one at Oxford, one at UVic, both hopefully identical) so that you're >> reading the very latest build, including any changes since the last >> release. Differences will be minor, but it is most important to proof >> the latest changes, which are only in the Jenkins builds. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 12-12-26 11:16 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Hugh mentions that 17 January might be a good day for him to do a >>> TEI release and it is a day that I'm relatively free as well. >>> >>> Could I propose that we _try_ to stop any schema-affecting >>> changes to the TEI SVN repository on the evening of the 15th >>> January? (obvious exceptions being solving bugs introduced in >>> the run up to that, typos, etc.) >>> >>> Also, some time before then, could everyone read the chapter >>> whose number is the same as the month of their birth. (I.e. my >>> birthdate is in December, like Lou's, so we'll both read chapter >>> 12). >>> >>> I'm not in any way thinking this will get us a good complete >>> coverage, but at least means some spot proofreading will be done >>> and means we don't need to come up with a set list of >>> assignments, etc. Obviously any typos, lack of clarity, etc. can >>> just be corrected. Anything you think warrants a ticket, should >>> be created. >>> >>> I've assigned the open SF bugs without ticket owners (only a >>> handful) and will be doing so with the SF feature requests soon. >>> >>> -James > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 2 17:42:01 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 22:42:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] January TEI Release In-Reply-To: <50E43E82.40703@ultraslavonic.info> References: <50DB4D17.2050209@it.ox.ac.uk> <50DB51AB.1060200@uvic.ca> <50E43E82.40703@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3668239B-5603-4070-8A3D-313BDDD17B01@it.ox.ac.uk> ah, the truth is revealed. the URL http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CO.html#CO.html is a proxy rewrite on tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk to http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CO.html and the latter is correct. so why does tei.oucs appear to be caching the files? because I messed up the rewrite rules... fixed... So I am happy that the Jenkins is correct. And the good news is that the install script uses the http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins version anyway, so releases would have been fine. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 3 06:04:21 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 11:04:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SF.net SVN: tei:[11270] trunk/P5/Source/Guidelines/en/ TS-TranscriptionsofSpeech.xml In-Reply-To: <50DC58B8.4030302@ultraslavonic.info> References: <15B12685-4B23-4243-B925-29172EC0D1DA@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50DC58B8.4030302@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: On 27 Dec 2012, at 14:18, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> -element; the class model.phrase.spoken >>> +element; the class model.global.spoken >>> provides the six other elements listed above.

>>> >> >> This suggests we should look at content of ident type="class" to check that ID exists? I could >> Add that to the validator. > > To validation as part of the build process? Yes, please. I have added this test. Lo! a slew of errors are reported :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 3 06:34:13 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 11:34:13 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SF.net SVN: tei:[11270] trunk/P5/Source/Guidelines/en/ TS-TranscriptionsofSpeech.xml In-Reply-To: References: <15B12685-4B23-4243-B925-29172EC0D1DA@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50DC58B8.4030302@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5BDE34F0-634E-4C01-B7ED-14C63DEAEB65@it.ox.ac.uk> On 3 Jan 2013, at 11:04, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> This suggests we should look at content of ident type="class" to check that ID exists? I could >>> Add that to the validator. >> >> To validation as part of the build process? Yes, please. > > I have added this test. > > Lo! a slew of errors are reported :-} I have, in case you wondered, fixed all these now. All the ones in old Prefaces which pointed at old names for classes I have simply changed to with no @type This was well worth doing - there were quite a few (understandable) typos and mis-rememberings there. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 3 07:37:18 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 12:37:18 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Use of "below" and "above" in Guidelines prose In-Reply-To: <50DB7A59.7010602@uvic.ca> References: <50DB7A59.7010602@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <82AA5839-10AD-4B42-8498-F2323846B291@it.ox.ac.uk> On 26 Dec 2012, at 22:29, Martin Holmes wrote: > I think this sort of phrasing: > > "...see sections 15.2.3 The Setting Description and 15.2.2 The > Participant Description below." (from Chapter 8) > > is confusing For what its worth, I have no problem myself in mentally translating the old meanings of "above" and "below" into their digital equivalents. But I guess it does no harm in simplifying the prose in the way you suggest. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 3 08:36:07 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 13:36:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] without timing information? In-Reply-To: <50E333E4.3080807@uvic.ca> References: <50E333E4.3080807@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3F316662-D2D9-4EA1-86DA-E0C9BCE1AB4D@it.ox.ac.uk> i support your interpretation that, without the timeline attributes on , the example is incoherent. so I'd say add 'em -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 3 09:54:36 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 14:54:36 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] description of @type's data values Message-ID: there's some interesting observations by the indefatigable John M at https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=644062&aid=3599062&group_id=106328 which needs some loving care. Anyone feel like a go at it? You have to love the on distinct/@type: "a semi-open user-defined list" I bet that meant something very specific to whoever wrote it :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 3 09:59:18 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 14:59:18 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] description of @type's data values In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E59CC6.5050703@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 03/01/13 14:54, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > there's some interesting observations by the indefatigable John M at https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=644062&aid=3599062&group_id=106328 > which needs some loving care. Anyone feel like a go at it? Happy to have a crack at these. Actually, there is an outstanding ticket somewhere (I think; or it may just be a council action) to check on all s. Although most of them are deeply suspicious we left them untouched because some of them express constraints that could or should be schematronized From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 3 10:04:01 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 15:04:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] description of @type's data values In-Reply-To: <50E59CC6.5050703@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E59CC6.5050703@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 3 Jan 2013, at 14:59, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 03/01/13 14:54, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> there's some interesting observations by the indefatigable John M at https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=644062&aid=3599062&group_id=106328 >> which needs some loving care. Anyone feel like a go at it? > > Happy to have a crack at these. Actually, there is an outstanding ticket > somewhere (I think; or it may just be a council action) to check on all > s. Although most of them are deeply suspicious we left them > untouched because some of them express constraints that could or should > be schematronized yes, nothing wrong with the use of per se, the concern is where the description is not consonant with data.enumerated. its language like "word or phrase" which jumps out at the reader. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jan 3 10:11:40 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2013 10:11:40 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Use of "below" and "above" in Guidelines prose In-Reply-To: <50DB7A59.7010602@uvic.ca> References: <50DB7A59.7010602@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50E59FAC.5090307@ultraslavonic.info> I'll give a "+1" in support of Martin, not to clutter everyone's inboxes but to counter the weak protests. --Kevin On 12/26/2012 5:29 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > I think this sort of phrasing: > > "...see sections 15.2.3 The Setting Description and 15.2.2 The > Participant Description below." (from Chapter 8) > > is confusing, given that the Guidelines are now almost universally read > in their modular online format. In Chapter 8, "below" suggests to me > that the relevant sections will be found within the current page > somewhere; actually, they're in a different chapter, which is a > different page. > > "Below" and "above" still make sense in the context of the one-document > PDF, but there also the sections referred to would be linked directly, > so finding them is not an issue. > > Absent loud protestations, I'm going to remove "below" from the sentence > above, and elsewhere in the chapter I'm proofing (except where it points > to a location which actually is in that chapter). > > Cheers, > Martin From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 3 12:05:27 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 17:05:27 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] specList/specDesc/@key=model.XXXX Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203CBF7572@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> you can see the way this is now displayed at http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CO.html#COBICOI if people dont like this display, they should shout now and say what they want :-} Sebastian Rahtz Oxford University Computing Services From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jan 3 13:54:57 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 10:54:57 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] description of @type's data values In-Reply-To: References: <50E59CC6.5050703@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E5D401.9010000@uvic.ca> It's this ticket: which I've made a start on. Would anyone care to read my last comment, and see if I've outlined the target attributes correctly? Cheers, Martin On 13-01-03 07:04 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 3 Jan 2013, at 14:59, Lou Burnard > wrote: > >> On 03/01/13 14:54, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> there's some interesting observations by the indefatigable John M at https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=644062&aid=3599062&group_id=106328 >>> which needs some loving care. Anyone feel like a go at it? >> >> Happy to have a crack at these. Actually, there is an outstanding ticket >> somewhere (I think; or it may just be a council action) to check on all >> s. Although most of them are deeply suspicious we left them >> untouched because some of them express constraints that could or should >> be schematronized > > > yes, nothing wrong with the use of per se, the concern is where > the description is not consonant with data.enumerated. its language like > "word or phrase" which jumps out at the reader. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 4 11:22:06 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:22:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] span span span span Message-ID: <50E701AE.9010705@retired.ox.ac.uk> As Piotr is no longer with us :-( I have taken it on myself to implement purl.org/TEI/FR/3526975 -- a bit irregular since I submitted the fr in the first place, but this has been sitting around for months. Pray forgive me! To do it properly I had to add a bunch of schematron rules, which someone else should check for me, From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 4 11:25:59 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 16:25:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] span span span span In-Reply-To: <50E701AE.9010705@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E701AE.9010705@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 4 Jan 2013, at 16:22, Lou Burnard wrote: > As Piotr is no longer with us :-( I have taken it on myself to implement > purl.org/TEI/FR/3526975 -- a bit irregular since I submitted the fr in > the first place, but this has been sitting around for months. Pray > forgive me! > To do it properly I had to add a bunch of schematron rules, which > someone else should check for me, i will add some test material to Tests/detest.xml for this -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 4 11:56:28 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:56:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] span span span span In-Reply-To: References: <50E701AE.9010705@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E709BC.8010400@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 04/01/13 16:33, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > should @target test it points to two things? > > -- > S Not nessa, i think. is semantically equivalent to From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Jan 4 12:29:24 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 12:29:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] TEI Tite status question Message-ID: Anyone on Council: Is the TEI Tite exemplar (at SF rev 11160, http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tei/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_tite.odd?view=log) more or less in a frozen state at the moment, or are substantive changes envisioned in any near future? I need to update an in-house vendor schema deriving from Tite but will wait if it is still in flux. thanks, David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400314, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4314 USA Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 4 12:34:26 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 17:34:26 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] description of @type's data values In-Reply-To: <50E5D401.9010000@uvic.ca> References: <50E59CC6.5050703@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50E5D401.9010000@uvic.ca> Message-ID: On 3 Jan 2013, at 18:54, Martin Holmes wrote: > It's this ticket: > > > > which I've made a start on. I chipped and sorted 60-70 of the s, about 180 remaining. A good many are perfectly sensible: Source/Specs/leaf.xml: The identifier of the parent node. others remain silly: Source/Specs/iNode.xml: A list of identifiers. while yet others are amenable to checking, but its hard: A series of one or more space-separated pointers (URIs) to category elements, typically located within a taxonomy element inside a TEI header. (not easy in Schematron if there are multiple pointers?) -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 4 12:36:20 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 17:36:20 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Tite status question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3DF945EE-E0A8-4DA6-8D0B-576D1EA27561@it.ox.ac.uk> On 4 Jan 2013, at 17:29, David Sewell wrote: > Anyone on Council: Is the TEI Tite exemplar (at SF rev 11160, > http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tei/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_tite.odd?view=log) > more or less in a frozen state at the moment, or are substantive changes > envisioned in any near future? I believe it to be in very slow flux. i.e. there are changes which Apex made by hand which need to be integrated back into the source, but its taking a while to get that done. I fear the burden is on Kevin's broad shoulders as ever. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Jan 4 12:41:04 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 12:41:04 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Tite status question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E71430.1030604@ultraslavonic.info> It's more or less frozen. I have an action item from the Ann Arbor meeting last April to freeze Tite more officially, like Lou did for Lite in early 2012, and I still haven't found time to do this. (On the other hand, from a prior Council meeting I also have an action item to to verify syncing the Apex and canonical Tite versions (partly held up by family illness on the Apex end), and I also want to implement a few long-standing Tite feature requests in SourceForge that I intentionally put off until I finished syncing the two Tite schemas. Still, none of these things are going to happen in the very near future.) --K. On 1/4/2013 12:29 PM, David Sewell wrote: > Anyone on Council: Is the TEI Tite exemplar (at SF rev 11160, > http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tei/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_tite.odd?view=log) > more or less in a frozen state at the moment, or are substantive changes > envisioned in any near future? > > I need to update an in-house vendor schema deriving from Tite but will wait if > it is still in flux. > > thanks, > > David > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 4 16:32:33 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2013 21:32:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction Message-ID: see conversation about Pessoa on TEI-L. On the one hand: @ed is described with "supplies an arbitrary identifier for the source edition in which the associated feature (for example, a page, column, or line break) occurs at this point in the text" , with a gloss of "A string of characters or sigil used conventionally to identify the edition", and an example is On the other hand: The datatype of @ed is data.code, which is anyURI I put if to you all that this cannot stand. The prose describes something like @cRef, the datatype is like @wit. I suggest that the datatype is what we intended, and that the prose has not been brought into line. Anyone with me? -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Jan 4 22:38:57 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 22:38:57 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> Looking through the history in Subversion, I see that att.sourced has had data.code since the beginning, when it was implemented as part of http://purl.org/TEI/FR/2216574 . Perhaps that sheds some light on this. On 1/4/13 4:32 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > see conversation about Pessoa on TEI-L. > > On the one hand: > @ed is described with "supplies an arbitrary identifier for the source edition in which > the associated feature (for example, a page, column, or line > break) occurs at this point in the text" , with a gloss of > "A string of characters or sigil used conventionally to identify the edition", and an example is > > On the other hand: > The datatype of @ed is data.code, which is anyURI > > I put if to you all that this cannot stand. The prose describes something like @cRef, > the datatype is like @wit. > > I suggest that the datatype is what we intended, and that the prose > has not been brought into line. > > Anyone with me? > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 08:11:49 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 13:11:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: On 5 Jan 2013, at 03:38, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Looking through the history in Subversion, I see that att.sourced has > had data.code since the beginning, when it was implemented as part of > http://purl.org/TEI/FR/2216574 . true. but what we're missing is a collective memory of how we intended data.code to work. It isn't used anywhere else except att.sourced, and I cant recall now why it is different to data.pointer. I think I remember there _was_ discussion about that, but I can't trace it. Mr Occam would suggest that the correct course of action could be - remove data.code - change att.sourced to use data.pointer - change prose to say that @ed must point to something -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 08:39:09 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 13:39:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> What about all the people who are now using @ed to contain a cRef like string that "conventionally expresses" the edition that has a linebreak at this point? (They should stop and start using a pointer instead of a cRef, I agree, but backwards compatibility?) I'm not sure if I'm suggesting forking @ed into @ed-string and @ed-ref, but I worry a little bit about it. Gabby On 05/01/2013 13:11, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 5 Jan 2013, at 03:38, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > >> Looking through the history in Subversion, I see that att.sourced has >> had data.code since the beginning, when it was implemented as part of >> http://purl.org/TEI/FR/2216574 . > > true. but what we're missing is a collective memory of how we intended > data.code to work. It isn't used anywhere else except att.sourced, and > I cant recall now why it is different to data.pointer. I think I remember there _was_ > discussion about that, but I can't trace it. > > Mr Occam would suggest that the correct course of action could be > > - remove data.code > - change att.sourced to use data.pointer > - change prose to say that @ed must point to something > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 09:00:09 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 14:00:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> On 5 Jan 2013, at 13:39, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > What about all the people who are now using @ed to contain a cRef like > string that "conventionally expresses" the edition that has a linebreak > at this point? (They should stop and start using a pointer instead of a > cRef, I agree, but backwards compatibility?) people who are currently saying are pointing at a local file called "1665", though they realize it or not. the alternative is to change data.code to be simply text, but the consider the question on TEI-L, where the questioner asks where to define what @ed refers to. in fact, the _text_ about @ed really seems to suggest use of data.key ("the range of attribute values expressing a coded value by means of an arbitrary identifier, typically taken from a set of externally-defined possibilities") -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 11:50:04 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 16:50:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] my open tickets for next release Message-ID: <0A125FC4-733F-4F26-A872-066FCEB27F0F@it.ox.ac.uk> I have been over the tickets assigned to me in Bugs and Feature Requests and resolved/fixed/implemented those that I feel I can have any effect on. I have 16 bugs assigned to me, but most are about Roma, and I am not about to work on that. I have 2 feature requests assigned to me, but cannot fix either Unless anyone is waiting on me to do anything, I am calling it a day for now. I am going outside the tent and may be some time :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Sat Jan 5 15:36:40 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 12:36:40 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] description of @type's data values In-Reply-To: References: <50E59CC6.5050703@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50E5D401.9010000@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50E88ED8.9060409@uvic.ca> Thanks Sebastian. I'm hoping to have a little time to work on this tomorrow. The challenge of checking a list of multiple pointers in Schematron is interesting. It might be possible to check pointers to @xml:ids inside the same file, but I don't think it's possible to check for the existence of a element in another file from inside a Schematron constraint, is it? Cheers, Martin On 13-01-04 09:34 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 3 Jan 2013, at 18:54, Martin Holmes wrote: > >> It's this ticket: >> >> >> >> which I've made a start on. > > I chipped and sorted 60-70 of the s, about 180 remaining. > A good many are perfectly sensible: > > Source/Specs/leaf.xml: The identifier of the parent node. > > others remain silly: > > Source/Specs/iNode.xml: A list of identifiers. > > while yet others are amenable to checking, but its hard: > A series of one or more space-separated pointers (URIs) to category > elements, typically located within a taxonomy element inside a TEI header. > (not easy in Schematron if there are multiple pointers?) > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From mholmes at uvic.ca Sat Jan 5 15:58:38 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 12:58:38 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E893FE.3040205@uvic.ca> +1 from me. On 13-01-04 01:32 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > see conversation about Pessoa on TEI-L. > > On the one hand: > @ed is described with "supplies an arbitrary identifier for the source edition in which > the associated feature (for example, a page, column, or line > break) occurs at this point in the text" , with a gloss of > "A string of characters or sigil used conventionally to identify the edition", and an example is > > On the other hand: > The datatype of @ed is data.code, which is anyURI > > I put if to you all that this cannot stand. The prose describes something like @cRef, > the datatype is like @wit. > > I suggest that the datatype is what we intended, and that the prose > has not been brought into line. > > Anyone with me? > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 16:06:36 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 21:06:36 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> No I agree with you that a pointer makes sense, and of the three options a. define @ed to take text, like @cRef b. define @ed to be a pointer and take a uri c. fork @ed so we have ways to do both the above I like (a) the least. But I'm a bit torn between b. and c., simply because of all the people who have been misled by the text ("A string of characters or sigil used conventionally to identify the edition") and example in the guidelines, which I suspect is the majority. (I haven't used @ed very often, and certainly not very recently, but I don't recall what I put in it. Probably not a pointer.) Not feeling strongly enough about this to shout if there is a clear consensus for (b), however. :-) Gabby On 05/01/2013 14:00, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 5 Jan 2013, at 13:39, Gabriel Bodard > wrote: > >> What about all the people who are now using @ed to contain a cRef like >> string that "conventionally expresses" the edition that has a linebreak >> at this point? (They should stop and start using a pointer instead of a >> cRef, I agree, but backwards compatibility?) > > people who are currently saying are pointing > at a local file called "1665", though they realize it or not. > > the alternative is to change data.code to be simply text, > but the consider the question on TEI-L, where the questioner > asks where to define what @ed refers to. > > in fact, the _text_ about @ed really seems to suggest > use of data.key ("the range of attribute values expressing a coded value by means of an arbitrary > identifier, typically taken from a set of externally-defined possibilities") > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Sat Jan 5 16:32:05 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 13:32:05 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E89BD5.8000103@uvic.ca> A quick fix for existing projects would be to implement a prefix definition declaration, and search-and-replace ed=" for ed="def: But that's hardly Birnbaumian. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-05 05:39 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > What about all the people who are now using @ed to contain a cRef like > string that "conventionally expresses" the edition that has a linebreak > at this point? (They should stop and start using a pointer instead of a > cRef, I agree, but backwards compatibility?) I'm not sure if I'm > suggesting forking @ed into @ed-string and @ed-ref, but I worry a little > bit about it. > > Gabby > > On 05/01/2013 13:11, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 5 Jan 2013, at 03:38, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> >>> Looking through the history in Subversion, I see that att.sourced has >>> had data.code since the beginning, when it was implemented as part of >>> http://purl.org/TEI/FR/2216574 . >> >> true. but what we're missing is a collective memory of how we intended >> data.code to work. It isn't used anywhere else except att.sourced, and >> I cant recall now why it is different to data.pointer. I think I remember there _was_ >> discussion about that, but I can't trace it. >> >> Mr Occam would suggest that the correct course of action could be >> >> - remove data.code >> - change att.sourced to use data.pointer >> - change prose to say that @ed must point to something >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz >> Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > From mholmes at uvic.ca Sat Jan 5 16:45:07 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 13:45:07 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> If we do b), I don't think we'll actually break very much, will we? The only case in which a currently-valid project would become invalid would be where the identifiers happen to begin with a number. If that's only a few cases, then it might be acceptable. Other cases where a cRef-style identifier is used would be formally wrong (they would apparently point to a file that didn't exist), but wouldn't show as invalid. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-05 01:06 PM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > No I agree with you that a pointer makes sense, and of the three options > > a. define @ed to take text, like @cRef > b. define @ed to be a pointer and take a uri > c. fork @ed so we have ways to do both the above > > I like (a) the least. But I'm a bit torn between b. and c., simply > because of all the people who have been misled by the text ("A string of > characters or sigil used conventionally to identify the edition") and > example in the guidelines, which I suspect is the majority. (I haven't > used @ed very often, and certainly not very recently, but I don't recall > what I put in it. Probably not a pointer.) > > Not feeling strongly enough about this to shout if there is a clear > consensus for (b), however. :-) > > Gabby > > On 05/01/2013 14:00, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 5 Jan 2013, at 13:39, Gabriel Bodard >> wrote: >> >>> What about all the people who are now using @ed to contain a cRef like >>> string that "conventionally expresses" the edition that has a linebreak >>> at this point? (They should stop and start using a pointer instead of a >>> cRef, I agree, but backwards compatibility?) >> >> people who are currently saying are pointing >> at a local file called "1665", though they realize it or not. >> >> the alternative is to change data.code to be simply text, >> but the consider the question on TEI-L, where the questioner >> asks where to define what @ed refers to. >> >> in fact, the _text_ about @ed really seems to suggest >> use of data.key ("the range of attribute values expressing a coded value by means of an arbitrary >> identifier, typically taken from a set of externally-defined possibilities") >> >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz >> Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> >> > From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 17:00:44 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 22:00:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> But whether the file is technically valid or not is less of an issue as far as I'm concerned than whether a file uses the TEI correctly. There are all sorts of ways for a file to be valid but wrong (a pointer that has nothing at the target explaining what is in your markup). If @ed is defined to be a pointer to a description of the edition in question, and instead it is being treated as an arbitrary, conventional string, then even if the schema can't tell the difference that is a bigger kind of broken. The analogous case, for me, of an attribute that didn't get a strict pointer/valList datatype in P5, is @lemma, and there were have the parallel @lemmaRef for the case where someone wants to use it in the more strict way, so there's precedent for forking, I guess. G On 05/01/2013 21:45, Martin Holmes wrote: > If we do b), I don't think we'll actually break very much, will we? The > only case in which a currently-valid project would become invalid would > be where the identifiers happen to begin with a number. If that's only a > few cases, then it might be acceptable. Other cases where a cRef-style > identifier is used would be formally wrong (they would apparently point > to a file that didn't exist), but wouldn't show as invalid. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-01-05 01:06 PM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> No I agree with you that a pointer makes sense, and of the three options >> >> a. define @ed to take text, like @cRef >> b. define @ed to be a pointer and take a uri >> c. fork @ed so we have ways to do both the above >> >> I like (a) the least. But I'm a bit torn between b. and c., simply >> because of all the people who have been misled by the text ("A string of >> characters or sigil used conventionally to identify the edition") and >> example in the guidelines, which I suspect is the majority. (I haven't >> used @ed very often, and certainly not very recently, but I don't recall >> what I put in it. Probably not a pointer.) >> >> Not feeling strongly enough about this to shout if there is a clear >> consensus for (b), however. :-) >> >> Gabby >> >> On 05/01/2013 14:00, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> >>> On 5 Jan 2013, at 13:39, Gabriel Bodard >>> wrote: >>> >>>> What about all the people who are now using @ed to contain a cRef like >>>> string that "conventionally expresses" the edition that has a linebreak >>>> at this point? (They should stop and start using a pointer instead of a >>>> cRef, I agree, but backwards compatibility?) >>> >>> people who are currently saying are pointing >>> at a local file called "1665", though they realize it or not. >>> >>> the alternative is to change data.code to be simply text, >>> but the consider the question on TEI-L, where the questioner >>> asks where to define what @ed refers to. >>> >>> in fact, the _text_ about @ed really seems to suggest >>> use of data.key ("the range of attribute values expressing a coded value by means of an arbitrary >>> identifier, typically taken from a set of externally-defined possibilities") >>> >>> -- >>> Sebastian Rahtz >>> http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz >>> Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services >>> University of Oxford IT Services >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>> >>> >> -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Sat Jan 5 17:09:52 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 14:09:52 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E8A4B0.6010605@uvic.ca> Fair enough. I see so much abuse of data.pointer attributes that I guess I've become immune to it; I've lost count of the number of times I've said "you do know that this points to a file called xxxx which doesn't exist, don't you?" But the precedent of @lemma and @lemmaRef is a good one; that inclines me towards solution c), adding @edRef, with a plan to deprecate @ed in the long term. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-05 02:00 PM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > But whether the file is technically valid or not is less of an issue as > far as I'm concerned than whether a file uses the TEI correctly. There > are all sorts of ways for a file to be valid but wrong (a pointer that > has nothing at the target explaining what is in your markup). If @ed is > defined to be a pointer to a description of the edition in question, and > instead it is being treated as an arbitrary, conventional string, then > even if the schema can't tell the difference that is a bigger kind of > broken. > > The analogous case, for me, of an attribute that didn't get a strict > pointer/valList datatype in P5, is @lemma, and there were have the > parallel @lemmaRef for the case where someone wants to use it in the > more strict way, so there's precedent for forking, I guess. > > G > > On 05/01/2013 21:45, Martin Holmes wrote: >> If we do b), I don't think we'll actually break very much, will we? The >> only case in which a currently-valid project would become invalid would >> be where the identifiers happen to begin with a number. If that's only a >> few cases, then it might be acceptable. Other cases where a cRef-style >> identifier is used would be formally wrong (they would apparently point >> to a file that didn't exist), but wouldn't show as invalid. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-01-05 01:06 PM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> No I agree with you that a pointer makes sense, and of the three options >>> >>> a. define @ed to take text, like @cRef >>> b. define @ed to be a pointer and take a uri >>> c. fork @ed so we have ways to do both the above >>> >>> I like (a) the least. But I'm a bit torn between b. and c., simply >>> because of all the people who have been misled by the text ("A string of >>> characters or sigil used conventionally to identify the edition") and >>> example in the guidelines, which I suspect is the majority. (I haven't >>> used @ed very often, and certainly not very recently, but I don't recall >>> what I put in it. Probably not a pointer.) >>> >>> Not feeling strongly enough about this to shout if there is a clear >>> consensus for (b), however. :-) >>> >>> Gabby >>> >>> On 05/01/2013 14:00, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>> >>>> On 5 Jan 2013, at 13:39, Gabriel Bodard >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> What about all the people who are now using @ed to contain a cRef like >>>>> string that "conventionally expresses" the edition that has a linebreak >>>>> at this point? (They should stop and start using a pointer instead of a >>>>> cRef, I agree, but backwards compatibility?) >>>> >>>> people who are currently saying are pointing >>>> at a local file called "1665", though they realize it or not. >>>> >>>> the alternative is to change data.code to be simply text, >>>> but the consider the question on TEI-L, where the questioner >>>> asks where to define what @ed refers to. >>>> >>>> in fact, the _text_ about @ed really seems to suggest >>>> use of data.key ("the range of attribute values expressing a coded value by means of an arbitrary >>>> identifier, typically taken from a set of externally-defined possibilities") >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sebastian Rahtz >>>> http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz >>>> Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services >>>> University of Oxford IT Services >>>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>>> >>>> >>> > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 17:10:00 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 22:10:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> I think most people who actually use @ed are quite comfortable with the idea of referring to an edition by means of a siglum such as "1815" or "Blenkinsop" without any particular need to point to an explanation of what that edition is. That's why it was originally defined in this way at any rate. Insisting that it become a pointer seems a bit harsh to me. So my vote is for (a). On 05/01/13 22:00, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > But whether the file is technically valid or not is less of an issue as > far as I'm concerned than whether a file uses the TEI correctly. There > are all sorts of ways for a file to be valid but wrong (a pointer that > has nothing at the target explaining what is in your markup). If @ed is > defined to be a pointer to a description of the edition in question, and > instead it is being treated as an arbitrary, conventional string, then > even if the schema can't tell the difference that is a bigger kind of > broken. > > The analogous case, for me, of an attribute that didn't get a strict > pointer/valList datatype in P5, is @lemma, and there were have the > parallel @lemmaRef for the case where someone wants to use it in the > more strict way, so there's precedent for forking, I guess. > > G > > On 05/01/2013 21:45, Martin Holmes wrote: >> If we do b), I don't think we'll actually break very much, will we? The >> only case in which a currently-valid project would become invalid would >> be where the identifiers happen to begin with a number. If that's only a >> few cases, then it might be acceptable. Other cases where a cRef-style >> identifier is used would be formally wrong (they would apparently point >> to a file that didn't exist), but wouldn't show as invalid. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-01-05 01:06 PM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> No I agree with you that a pointer makes sense, and of the three options >>> >>> a. define @ed to take text, like @cRef >>> b. define @ed to be a pointer and take a uri >>> c. fork @ed so we have ways to do both the above >>> >>> I like (a) the least. But I'm a bit torn between b. and c., simply >>> because of all the people who have been misled by the text ("A string of >>> characters or sigil used conventionally to identify the edition") and >>> example in the guidelines, which I suspect is the majority. (I haven't >>> used @ed very often, and certainly not very recently, but I don't recall >>> what I put in it. Probably not a pointer.) >>> >>> Not feeling strongly enough about this to shout if there is a clear >>> consensus for (b), however. :-) >>> >>> Gabby >>> >>> On 05/01/2013 14:00, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>> >>>> On 5 Jan 2013, at 13:39, Gabriel Bodard >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> What about all the people who are now using @ed to contain a cRef like >>>>> string that "conventionally expresses" the edition that has a linebreak >>>>> at this point? (They should stop and start using a pointer instead of a >>>>> cRef, I agree, but backwards compatibility?) >>>> >>>> people who are currently saying are pointing >>>> at a local file called "1665", though they realize it or not. >>>> >>>> the alternative is to change data.code to be simply text, >>>> but the consider the question on TEI-L, where the questioner >>>> asks where to define what @ed refers to. >>>> >>>> in fact, the _text_ about @ed really seems to suggest >>>> use of data.key ("the range of attribute values expressing a coded value by means of an arbitrary >>>> identifier, typically taken from a set of externally-defined possibilities") >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sebastian Rahtz >>>> http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz >>>> Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services >>>> University of Oxford IT Services >>>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>>> >>>> >>> > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 18:16:21 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 23:16:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 5 Jan 2013, at 22:10, Lou Burnard wrote: > I think most people who actually use @ed are quite comfortable with the > idea of referring to an edition by means of a siglum such as "1815" or > "Blenkinsop" without any particular need to point to an explanation of > what that edition is. indeed. how do you answer Ant?nio Rito Silva, though? by adding edRef? > That's why it was originally defined in this way > at any rate. Insisting that it become a pointer seems a bit harsh to me. well, except that it _is_ a pointer, and has been so for 4 years now.... -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 18:20:11 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 23:20:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E8B52B.4070406@kcl.ac.uk> On 05/01/2013 23:16, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > indeed. how do you answer Ant?nio Rito Silva, though? by adding edRef? One possibility. Or treating it like a key--a magic bullet. Project-specific definition for how it relates to a bibliographical entry in the header or elsewhere in the project documentation. Adding @edRef seems nicer to me though. It has the advantage of keeping @ed "dumb" while adding smartness, and parallels @lemma[Ref] nicely. G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 18:22:57 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 23:22:57 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <673D6640-1C76-45A1-822C-5F8AA62D6CA0@it.ox.ac.uk> I think I like GB's solution of adding a new @edRef attribute, deleting data.code, changing @ed to use data.key, and deprecating @ed. Its complicated, but it does the least damage to existing practice (which has almost certainly followed the prose), while giving a proper solution to the Pessoa question. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 18:24:27 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 23:24:27 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E8B52B.4070406@kcl.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B52B.4070406@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <04765FCD-9043-40AE-B448-7B268712AB6C@it.ox.ac.uk> On 5 Jan 2013, at 23:20, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > > Adding @edRef seems nicer to me though. It has the advantage of keeping > @ed "dumb" while adding smartness, and parallels @lemma[Ref] nicely. we shouldnt be using the existing @resp? -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 18:26:28 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 23:26:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] description of @type's data values In-Reply-To: <50E88ED8.9060409@uvic.ca> References: <50E59CC6.5050703@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50E5D401.9010000@uvic.ca> <50E88ED8.9060409@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <88CF8458-FAEB-4535-8934-4C3CF09E52A1@it.ox.ac.uk> On 5 Jan 2013, at 20:36, Martin Holmes wrote: > > The challenge of checking a list of multiple pointers in Schematron is interesting. It might be possible to check pointers to @xml:ids inside the same file, but I don't think it's possible to check for the existence of a element in another file from inside a Schematron constraint, is it? > unless you can use the doc() function. which I doubt. and anyway, its not a fault if the URI is inaccessible at check time. I think its fairly well accepted that you can't really validate a URI in all generality. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 18:27:31 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 23:27:31 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <04765FCD-9043-40AE-B448-7B268712AB6C@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B52B.4070406@kcl.ac.uk> <04765FCD-9043-40AE-B448-7B268712AB6C@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E8B6E3.6060308@kcl.ac.uk> @resp is slightly different, isn't it? It's saying who made the encoding decision to put an tag here in the document. @ed is saying, this is the edition in which (the current encoder asserts) a line begins here. On 05/01/2013 23:24, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 5 Jan 2013, at 23:20, Gabriel Bodard > wrote: > >> >> Adding @edRef seems nicer to me though. It has the advantage of keeping >> @ed "dumb" while adding smartness, and parallels @lemma[Ref] nicely. > > > we shouldnt be using the existing @resp? > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sat Jan 5 18:28:26 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 18:28:26 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> On 1/5/13 6:16 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> That's why it was originally defined in this way >> at any rate. Insisting that it become a pointer seems a bit harsh to me. > > well, except that it _is_ a pointer, and has been so for 4 years now.... Given that the prose and the datatype of the attribute haven't matched for four years, and given that validators don't resolve pointers, it seems to me that if we don't want to create @edRef (as Gabby suggests), we should revert the data type to match the prose. However, I have no problem with the solution Gabby proposes. I am generally well disposed to having parallel structures (in this case, @lemma : @lemmaRef :: @ed : @edRef). --K. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Jan 5 19:21:41 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 19:21:41 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> The difference between data.code and data.pointer is that in some previous (probably pre-release) iteration of P5, data.code was intended to point to something *in the same file*, thus being a mechanism for on-the-fly controlled vocabularies. The TEI has (or at least had) 5 general-purpose mechanisms for providing vocabularies for attribute values: * list of values is supplied in the ODD (either TEI ODD, user's ODD, or combination thereof) and thus the schema: data.enumerated. * list of values is supplied in the instance file (typically in the header): data.code. * list of values is supplied in a specific external source: data.language (which I think is only example of this at the moment, since data.outputMeasurement and data.sex do not reference the specs, but rather check for values themselves) * list of values is supplied somewhere on the web: data.pointer. * list of values is magically generated at run-time by the user, with the algorithm supplied in a TEI-conformant way (@cRef) or some other way, typically an index into an external database (@key). I think Lou is right, most people who actually use @ed are perfectly happy using a data.word-like string that everyone in their project (sometimes in their entire field) recognizes immediately. IMHO, that's an argument for this to be data.enumerated. But I can see that a lot of folks would want to point from @ed to a bibliographic entry for the particular edition. In which case data.pointer seems reasonable. So I'm thinking (reiterating some of this thread) we have three choices: * change @ed to data.pointer, thus requiring (in some loose sense) that the "Silver" edition be indicated with "#Silver" and that the 1674 edition be indicated with "#e1674" or some such. (But as has been pointed out, many users obliviously point to non-existent local files named "Silver" and "1674", and go on with their lives quite happily.) * change @ed to data.enumerated, and folks who want a bibliographic description of their edition can put it inside the of the appropriate . * change @ed to data.enumerated, and provide @edRef as a data.pointer. I don't really see any place for data.text here. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sat Jan 5 19:34:18 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 19:34:18 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Attributes without examples In-Reply-To: <50DF3058.80508@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5028011F.4050007@it.ox.ac.uk> <502848C5.5030504@uvic.ca> <50D3E1E1.7080201@ultraslavonic.info> <50D48A1F.60202@uvic.ca> <50D48E07.2040709@ultraslavonic.info> <50DF2F5B.1030904@ultraslavonic.info> <50DF3058.80508@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E8C68A.1050005@ultraslavonic.info> On 12/29/12 1:03 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 29/12/12 17:58, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> A procedural question about this task ... >> >> Is it okay to copy an example from a chapter of the Guidelines into the >> appropriate elementSpec or classSpec? That is, we're not concerned >> about such duplicated examples falling out of sync in case we adjust one >> and not another? > There's ample precedent for that. Both the copying, and the failing to > keep them in sync. :-( Okay, but do you agree with Sebastian that we shouldn't do it when adding new examples? I can of course tweak an example from the chapter before inserting into the spec, but that feels silly. If that's all I'm doing, why not keep the example as is (albeit without a mechanism to keep them in sync)? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 6 10:56:09 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 15:56:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> Syd's useful analysis explains, I think, what happened. We set up data.code with the intention of it being a special case of linking to a set of known values, but then forgot the plan and made it a pointer instead. > > So I'm thinking (reiterating some of > this thread) we have three choices: > > * change @ed to data.pointer,.. > * change @ed to data.enumerated > * change @ed to data.enumerated, and provide @edRef as a > data.pointer. everyone who has spoken seems in favour of the last of these - any objections? (though I think I'd say data.key not data.enumerated, as that seems to fit the "everyone knows" case of "1661 edition" better) -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 6 11:25:55 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 16:25:55 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 06/01/13 15:56, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Syd's useful analysis explains, I think, what happened. We set up data.code with the > intention of it being a special case of linking to a set of known values, but then > forgot the plan and made it a pointer instead. I for one did not forget that data.code was meant not to be a pointer, but I seem to remember being over-ruled! > >> >> So I'm thinking (reiterating some of >> this thread) we have three choices: >> >> * change @ed to data.pointer,.. >> * change @ed to data.enumerated >> * change @ed to data.enumerated, and provide @edRef as a >> data.pointer. > > > everyone who has spoken seems in favour of the last of these - any objections? data.enumerated is (as we agreed on a previous thread) constrained to be an XML name so ed="1666" would actually be illegal. > (though I think I'd say data.key not data.enumerated, as that seems to fit > the "everyone knows" case of "1661 edition" better) Yes, data.key probably has the right semantics here, although it doesn't actually exist in the TEI any more. I seem to remember some inconclusive argument about what the distinction between data.key and data.code should be, but the only upshot seems to have been the abolition of data.key and mass deployment of anyURI even in rather dubious contexts. I think the answer is to change the datatype of data.code from anyURI (which is silly) to data.text (which is painful, since it permits blanks, but is consistent with what we currently do with @key) Or (better) to reinvent data.key as something intermediate between data.name and data.text > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 6 11:40:53 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 16:40:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 6 Jan 2013, at 16:25, Lou Burnard wrote: >> Syd's useful analysis explains, I think, what happened. We set up data.code with the >> intention of it being a special case of linking to a set of known values, but then >> forgot the plan and made it a pointer instead. > > I for one did not forget that data.code was meant not to be a pointer, > but I seem to remember being over-ruled! I think I remember that discussion vaguely..... > ... > Yes, data.key probably has the right semantics here, although it doesn't > actually exist in the TEI any more. poor thing is still there, just unused by anyone > I think the answer is to change the datatype of data.code from anyURI > (which is silly) to data.text (which is painful, since it permits > blanks, but is consistent with what we currently do with @key) data.word covers this case already > > Or (better) to reinvent data.key as something intermediate between > data.name and data.text since data.code is not used anywhere except in att.sourced, and data.key is not used at all, we can drop both of them in favour of data.word -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sun Jan 6 12:52:36 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 12:52:36 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20713.47588.337416.135396@emt.ad.brown.edu> The advantage of data.word is that a value could start with a digit (like "1674"). The advantage of data.enumerated is that means the TEI is saying (appropriately, I think) "you should document your set of values in your ODD". Personally, I think the latter is more important, but it also would break backwards compatibility, so I'm thinking we should leave the official datatype as data.word, perhaps with some sort of prose recommendation for defining a constrained value list via in your ODD. > since data.code is not used anywhere except in att.sourced, and > data.key is not used at all, we can drop both of them in favour of > data.word From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 6 13:57:30 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 18:57:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <20713.47588.337416.135396@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20713.47588.337416.135396@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <00D259E6-48C2-4729-9CDF-93F9B0576C9F@it.ox.ac.uk> On 6 Jan 2013, at 17:52, Syd Bauman wrote: > The advantage of data.word is that a value could start with a digit > (like "1674"). The advantage of data.enumerated is that means the TEI > is saying (appropriately, I think) "you should document your set of > values in your ODD". really? surely the ODD is designed for the project level, while this information is for the document level. In my ODD I set up documented lists of (eg) the values I use for @type, but do I really embed in my schema the fact that for this one of document (of many in my set) I want to use "1661" and "1671" as values for lb/@ed? those seem like things I'll list in my header, not my schema. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 6 14:08:33 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 19:08:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <20713.47588.337416.135396@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20713.47588.337416.135396@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <50E9CBB1.1090307@retired.ox.ac.uk> Not sure about that. Some TEI datatypes provide both information about both what sort of value this is and also how it should be used. data.enumerated, for example says "the value should (actually or potentially) come from a fixed list of possible values". It also says "the value looks like an XML name". If we found a way of implementing enumerations which didn't need the additional constraint of being a name, then we'd change the mapping of data.enumerated Simly, I think I'd prefer to retain (or reinsert) data.key for its ability to say "this is an identifier of some non-pointerly kind that everyone recognizes" distinct from data.word -- the latter (analogously to data.name) provides only information that this thing has certain syntactic constraints. On 06/01/13 17:52, Syd Bauman wrote: > The advantage of data.word is that a value could start with a digit > (like "1674"). The advantage of data.enumerated is that means the TEI > is saying (appropriately, I think) "you should document your set of > values in your ODD". Personally, I think the latter is more > important, but it also would break backwards compatibility, so I'm > thinking we should leave the official datatype as data.word, perhaps > with some sort of prose recommendation for defining a constrained > value list via in your ODD. > > >> since data.code is not used anywhere except in att.sourced, and >> data.key is not used at all, we can drop both of them in favour of >> data.word From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 6 14:11:11 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 19:11:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <00D259E6-48C2-4729-9CDF-93F9B0576C9F@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20713.47588.337416.135396@emt.ad.brown.edu> <00D259E6-48C2-4729-9CDF-93F9B0576C9F@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E9CC4F.20501@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 06/01/13 18:57, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 6 Jan 2013, at 17:52, Syd Bauman > wrote: > >> The advantage of data.word is that a value could start with a digit >> (like "1674"). The advantage of data.enumerated is that means the TEI >> is saying (appropriately, I think) "you should document your set of >> values in your ODD". > > really? surely the ODD is designed for the project level, while this information > is for the document level. In my ODD I set up documented lists of (eg) > the values I use for @type, but do I really embed in my schema the fact that > for this one of document (of many in my set) I want to use "1661" and "1671" as > values for lb/@ed? those seem like things I'll list in my header, not my schema. Surely both are plausible ? However, I agree that enumerations are not *necessarily* provided in your ODD. They might well be documented in a corpus or text header. But that really is a project-specific choice. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 6 16:26:54 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 21:26:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E9CC4F.20501@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20713.47588.337416.135396@emt.ad.brown.edu> <00D259E6-48C2-4729-9CDF-93F9B0576C9F@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9CC4F.20501@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <54b36d17-62c4-4bc7-9879-04171e14c8d1@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 6 Jan 2013, at 19:11, Lou Burnard wrote: > However, I agree that enumerations are not *necessarily* provided in > your ODD. They might well be documented in a corpus or text header. But > that really is a project-specific choice. James will tell us that the ODD can be embedded in the header, so you can can have your cake and eat it :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 6 16:37:20 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 21:37:20 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E9CBB1.1090307@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20713.47588.337416.135396@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50E9CBB1.1090307@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 6 Jan 2013, at 19:08, Lou Burnard wrote: > data.enumerated, for example says "the value should (actually or > potentially) come from a fixed list of possible values". It also says > "the value looks like an XML name". If we found a way of implementing > enumerations which didn't need the additional constraint of being a > name, then we'd change the mapping of data.enumerated why do we still have that restriction, I wonder? it used to be, I think, 'cos we had that restriction on valItem/@ident, but that is no longer the case. what would go wrong if we said data.enumerated used data.word instead of data.name? apologies if we've had this discussion in the past and I have forgot. > > Simly, I think I'd prefer to retain (or reinsert) data.key for its > ability to say "this is an identifier of some non-pointerly kind that > everyone recognizes" distinct from data.word -- the latter (analogously > to data.name) provides only information that this thing has certain > syntactic constraints. you can have data.key, pointing to data.word, as a specialization; just as data.enumerated points at data.name now. so we might do the following: - change @ed to be data.key or data.enumerated (I vote for key myself, but am not wedded to it) - zap data.code - change data.enumerated to point to data.word - add @edRef, using data.pointer -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 6 16:46:00 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 21:46:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <6CAE525B-5E4F-4E81-BB8A-F215547CBE1E@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20713.47588.337416.135396@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50E9CBB1.1090307@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6CAE525B-5E4F-4E81-BB8A-F215547CBE1E@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50E9F098.3060603@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 06/01/13 21:37, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 6 Jan 2013, at 19:08, Lou Burnard wrote: > >> data.enumerated, for example says "the value should (actually or >> potentially) come from a fixed list of possible values". It also says >> "the value looks like an XML name". If we found a way of implementing >> enumerations which didn't need the additional constraint of being a >> name, then we'd change the mapping of data.enumerated > > why do we still have that restriction, I wonder? it used to be, I think, > 'cos we had that restriction on valItem/@ident, but that is no longer the case. yes, I'd forgotten that in a weak moment we allowed valItem/ident to become just text! > what would go wrong if we said data.enumerated used data.word instead > of data.name? all those people who insisted on using spaces within @ident values would get v. cross ? > > apologies if we've had this discussion in the past and I have forgot. good thing we have this tracker system eh >> From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 6 16:49:25 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2013 21:49:25 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] att.sourced () contradiction In-Reply-To: <50E9F098.3060603@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20713.47588.337416.135396@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50E9CBB1.1090307@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6CAE525B-5E4F-4E81-BB8A-F215547CBE1E@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9F098.3060603@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4cc8632e-b774-40e9-a9e6-0ca7064856b8@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 6 Jan 2013, at 21:46, Lou Burnard wrote: > >> what would go wrong if we said data.enumerated used data.word instead >> of data.name? > > all those people who insisted on using spaces within @ident values would get v. cross ? > this would not affect them. if you make a with /@ident s which has spaces, then your datatype is no longer data.enumerated. But that is true already. We would _extend_ the number of people who could keep using data.enumerated, as would now allow in the "1671" crowd (louche lot that they are). -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 09:15:44 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 09:15:44 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines Ch. 6 Message-ID: Hi all, I've been reading Chapter 6, which overall seems to be in really good shape--extremely thorough examples and very clearly written. One bit that gives me pause is below. In 6.1 there is an example: In the first year of Freedom's second dawn Died George the Third; although no tyrant, one Who shielded tyrants, till each sense withdrawn Left him nor mental nor external sun: A better farmer ne'er brushed dew from lawn, A worse king never left a realm undone! He died ? but left his subjects still behind, One half as mad ? and t'other no less blind. Followed by some commentary: "Note the use of the type attribute to name the type of unit encoded by the lg element; this attribute is common to all members of the att.divLikeclass (see section 4.1.1 Un-numbered Divisions). ?Sestet? and ?couplet? might conceivably also be used as the values of the rhyme attribute in an analysis of rhyme scheme, for which see below, section 6.3 Rhyme and Metrical Analysis. The type attribute is intended solely for conventional names of different classes of text block; the met attribute is intended for systematic metrical analysis." I'm not convinced that 'sestet' and 'couplet' are on their own viable values for @rhyme. These terms simply define how many lines are in a group. While there are conventions/implications about what this means for rhyme in certain kinds of poetry, they do not explicitly document a rhyme scheme, which is the purpose of @rhyme. If others agree, I propose the following revision: "Note the use of the type attribute to name the type of unit encoded by the lg element; this attribute is common to all members of the att.divLikeclass (see section 4.1.1 Un-numbered Divisions). When used on , the type attribute is intended solely for conventional names of different classes of text block. For systematic analysis of metrical and rhyme schemes, use the met and rhyme attributes, for which see below, section 6.3 Rhyme and Metrical Analysis." Or maybe I'm wrong: would 'sestet' and 'couplet' become meaningful values for @rhyme if (and perhaps only if) a specific rhyme scheme corresponding to each were defined in ? In this case, my proposed revision to the text is still correct, but the original could stay as it is. Becky From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Jan 7 11:47:44 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 08:47:44 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines Ch. 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50EAFC30.10400@uvic.ca> I think I'm with you on this. Rhyme schemes are variable in sestets (according to Wikipedia: ), so it makes no sense to characterize a rhyme scheme using "sestet". Cheers, Martin On 13-01-07 06:15 AM, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been reading Chapter 6, which overall seems to be in really good > shape--extremely thorough examples and very clearly written. One bit > that gives me pause is below. > > In 6.1 there is an example: > > > > In the first year of Freedom's second dawn > Died George the Third; although no tyrant, one > Who shielded tyrants, till each sense withdrawn > Left him nor mental nor external sun: > A better farmer ne'er brushed dew from lawn, > A worse king never left a realm undone! > > > He died ? but left his subjects still behind, > One half as mad ? and t'other no less blind. > > > > Followed by some commentary: > "Note the use of the type attribute to name the type of unit encoded > by the lg element; this attribute is common to all members of the > att.divLikeclass (see section 4.1.1 Un-numbered Divisions). ?Sestet? > and ?couplet? might conceivably also be used as the values of the > rhyme attribute in an analysis of rhyme scheme, for which see below, > section 6.3 Rhyme and Metrical Analysis. The type attribute is > intended solely for conventional names of different classes of text > block; the met attribute is intended for systematic metrical > analysis." > > I'm not convinced that 'sestet' and 'couplet' are on their own viable > values for @rhyme. These terms simply define how many lines are in a > group. While there are conventions/implications about what this means > for rhyme in certain kinds of poetry, they do not explicitly document > a rhyme scheme, which is the purpose of @rhyme. If others agree, I > propose the following revision: > > "Note the use of the type attribute to name the type of unit encoded > by the lg element; this attribute is common to all members of the > att.divLikeclass (see section 4.1.1 Un-numbered Divisions). When used > on , the type attribute is intended solely for conventional names > of different classes of text block. For systematic analysis of > metrical and rhyme schemes, use the met and rhyme attributes, for > which see below, section 6.3 Rhyme and Metrical Analysis." > > Or maybe I'm wrong: would 'sestet' and 'couplet' become meaningful > values for @rhyme if (and perhaps only if) a specific rhyme scheme > corresponding to each were defined in ? In this case, my > proposed revision to the text is still correct, but the original could > stay as it is. > > Becky > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 11:57:56 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2013 16:57:56 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines Ch. 6 In-Reply-To: <50EAFC30.10400@uvic.ca> References: <50EAFC30.10400@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50EAFE94.5080802@retired.ox.ac.uk> Well, to defend this apparent oddity, in this particular case, the ottavarima, as practiced by Byron at least, it *does* make sense to talk of the sestet and the couplet, and the rhyming structure is completely regular within that structure. So I can see why the author of this piece might propose using these as values for @rhyme, to avoid the tedium of saying "ABABAB" for the former and "CC" for the latter (vel sim). And a "couplet" is always a pair of lines which rhyme, not just a pair of lines. However, I have no problem with Becky's revision, which leaves this whole question (rightly) under specified. On 07/01/13 16:47, Martin Holmes wrote: > I think I'm with you on this. Rhyme schemes are variable in sestets > (according to Wikipedia: ), so it > makes no sense to characterize a rhyme scheme using "sestet". > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-01-07 06:15 AM, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I've been reading Chapter 6, which overall seems to be in really good >> shape--extremely thorough examples and very clearly written. One bit >> that gives me pause is below. >> >> In 6.1 there is an example: >> >> >> >> In the first year of Freedom's second dawn >> Died George the Third; although no tyrant, one >> Who shielded tyrants, till each sense withdrawn >> Left him nor mental nor external sun: >> A better farmer ne'er brushed dew from lawn, >> A worse king never left a realm undone! >> >> >> He died ? but left his subjects still behind, >> One half as mad ? and t'other no less blind. >> >> >> >> Followed by some commentary: >> "Note the use of the type attribute to name the type of unit encoded >> by the lg element; this attribute is common to all members of the >> att.divLikeclass (see section 4.1.1 Un-numbered Divisions). ?Sestet? >> and ?couplet? might conceivably also be used as the values of the >> rhyme attribute in an analysis of rhyme scheme, for which see below, >> section 6.3 Rhyme and Metrical Analysis. The type attribute is >> intended solely for conventional names of different classes of text >> block; the met attribute is intended for systematic metrical >> analysis." >> >> I'm not convinced that 'sestet' and 'couplet' are on their own viable >> values for @rhyme. These terms simply define how many lines are in a >> group. While there are conventions/implications about what this means >> for rhyme in certain kinds of poetry, they do not explicitly document >> a rhyme scheme, which is the purpose of @rhyme. If others agree, I >> propose the following revision: >> >> "Note the use of the type attribute to name the type of unit encoded >> by the lg element; this attribute is common to all members of the >> att.divLikeclass (see section 4.1.1 Un-numbered Divisions). When used >> on , the type attribute is intended solely for conventional names >> of different classes of text block. For systematic analysis of >> metrical and rhyme schemes, use the met and rhyme attributes, for >> which see below, section 6.3 Rhyme and Metrical Analysis." >> >> Or maybe I'm wrong: would 'sestet' and 'couplet' become meaningful >> values for @rhyme if (and perhaps only if) a specific rhyme scheme >> corresponding to each were defined in ? In this case, my >> proposed revision to the text is still correct, but the original could >> stay as it is. >> >> Becky >> > From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Jan 7 18:27:16 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 15:27:16 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] My tickets Message-ID: <50EB59D4.6000300@uvic.ca> Hi all, I think I've now completed all tickets assigned to me that should be done before the upcoming release. There are two exceptions: which I think should be obviated by Lou's work on this one: Lou, could you confirm? I also still have this one outstanding: which is the one about adding "tei_" to all anchors and their corresponding links inside the web version of the Guidelines. I had one shot at this a few months ago and failed, but I'm not giving up, and James promised to take a look at it and help. Since screwing it up is potentially so disastrous, though, I don't propose to take it on in the run-up to a release. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 04:15:05 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 09:15:05 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] My tickets In-Reply-To: <50EB59D4.6000300@uvic.ca> References: <50EB59D4.6000300@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50EBE399.1030002@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 07/01/13 23:27, Martin Holmes wrote: > There are two exceptions: > > > > which I think should be obviated by Lou's work on this one: > > > > Lou, could you confirm? > Yes, was planning to update that ticket accordingly, but ran out of steam dealing with the long overdue att.fragmentable last night > I also still have this one outstanding: > > > > which is the one about adding "tei_" to all anchors and their > corresponding links inside the web version of the Guidelines. I had one > shot at this a few months ago and failed, but I'm not giving up, and > James promised to take a look at it and help. Since screwing it up is > potentially so disastrous, though, I don't propose to take it on in the > run-up to a release. hear hear From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 07:04:59 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 12:04:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI2013: Programme Committee Message-ID: <50EC0B6B.7090003@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi all, The TEI Technical Council usually has a representative on the TEI2013 Programme Committee. While it isn't necessary for it to be someone who will be attending, it is beneficial IMHO. I happen to know already that I'll be unable to attend this year's Conference and so feel that someone else should be on the Programme Committee this year. If you think you might be able to attend the TEI2013 conference, happening in Italy in early October, and are interested in being the Council's representative to the TEI2013 Programme Committee please let me know. I'll pass the first name I get on to the board. Best wishes, -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 07:06:24 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 12:06:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] My tickets In-Reply-To: <50EBE399.1030002@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50EB59D4.6000300@uvic.ca> <50EBE399.1030002@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EC0BC0.40204@it.ox.ac.uk> >> I also still have this one outstanding: >> >> >> >> which is the one about adding "tei_" to all anchors and their >> corresponding links inside the web version of the Guidelines. I had one >> shot at this a few months ago and failed, but I'm not giving up, and >> James promised to take a look at it and help. Since screwing it up is >> potentially so disastrous, though, I don't propose to take it on in the >> run-up to a release. > hear hear I'd agree with that. Although the problem may still exist it is best to get any solution to it solid. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 08:40:05 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 13:40:05 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI2013: Programme Committee In-Reply-To: <50EC0B6B.7090003@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50EC0B6B.7090003@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EC21B5.8030503@kcl.ac.uk> I'm only 75% likely to go to Rome, but if no one more certain signs up in the meantime I'm happy to help with this. G On 2013-01-08 12:04, James Cummings wrote: > Hi all, > > The TEI Technical Council usually has a representative on the > TEI2013 Programme Committee. While it isn't necessary for it to > be someone who will be attending, it is beneficial IMHO. I happen > to know already that I'll be unable to attend this year's > Conference and so feel that someone else should be on the > Programme Committee this year. > > If you think you might be able to attend the TEI2013 conference, > happening in Italy in early October, and are interested in being > the Council's representative to the TEI2013 Programme Committee > please let me know. I'll pass the first name I get on to the board. > > Best wishes, > > -James > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 F: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 09:09:31 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 14:09:31 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI2013: Programme Committee In-Reply-To: <50EC0B6B.7090003@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50EC0B6B.7090003@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <9e5c02c4-4419-4c36-ac11-975b3dccd168@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> If its in Rome, I will go even if I have to pay for it myself and take holiday. So I could do if needed Sent from my iPad On 8 Jan 2013, at 12:05, "James Cummings" wrote: > Hi all, > > The TEI Technical Council usually has a representative on the > TEI2013 Programme Committee. While it isn't necessary for it to > be someone who will be attending, it is beneficial IMHO. I happen > to know already that I'll be unable to attend this year's > Conference and so feel that someone else should be on the > Programme Committee this year. > > If you think you might be able to attend the TEI2013 conference, > happening in Italy in early October, and are interested in being > the Council's representative to the TEI2013 Programme Committee > please let me know. I'll pass the first name I get on to the board. > > Best wishes, > > -James > > -- > Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 10:28:03 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 15:28:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the word according to John Message-ID: <527F1FDD-98A3-485D-BFE3-B862B7EC12DE@it.ox.ac.uk> Lovely quote from an SF ticket comment by John M: "?.reminding them that examples in the Guidelines often assume particular downstream processing that is nowhere documented. That is: Use these examples to guide your own practice, but -- secret of secrets -- be sure the consumers of your TEI file process whitespace the way the examples presume they will. What exactly that is, is for you to figure out. Case by case. Good luck." -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 12:13:11 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 17:13:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] attribute names used in classes which are duplicated on elements Message-ID: <078B8ED1-305F-459C-BDD8-29E5273C33AD@it.ox.ac.uk> As per FR 3567935, I have compiled a catalogue at of all the cases where an attribute name defined in a class is also used on an element. This happens 49 times. Each of them needs examining to see whether they can now be replaced with class membership and local override of the given attribute. you can see the catalogue as an editable spreadsheet at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhciBT9b4XaZdEQ1bmZ6emF0ck9GQU9sWDlFSlRkUFE (and with better formatting and links at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/duplatts.html). this raises many questions. A simple one: /@ref is pretty much the same as att.canonical/@ref, but if we add to att.canonical, it gains @key as well. Is that a Good Thing or a Bad Thing? obviously we can have the status quo, by adding to I think I could go ahead and do 90% of these myself by common sense, but thats not sensible :-}. I suggest that we use that spreadsheet to look at some of these cases and add a decision/recommendation/vote to the first column. choices may be: easy: make all elements members of class hard: make elements members of class, but with adjustments (i.e. only having some attributes from class, overriding description) harder: some elements only, needs careful thought impossible: the attributes are definitely not the same beast I have some suggestions already Then at a second stage someone can go in and action each case. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 12:16:28 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 17:16:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI2013: Programme Committee In-Reply-To: <0C86FD9F-5BBD-45B7-B10F-05AEFAACCBE2@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50EC0B6B.7090003@it.ox.ac.uk> <0C86FD9F-5BBD-45B7-B10F-05AEFAACCBE2@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EC546C.50504@it.ox.ac.uk> This sounds like a winner to me. I'll be forwarding Sebastian's name to the Board for inclusion on the committee. -James On 08/01/13 14:09, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > If its in Rome, I will go even if I have to pay for it myself and take holiday. So I could do if needed > > Sent from my iPad > > On 8 Jan 2013, at 12:05, "James Cummings" wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> The TEI Technical Council usually has a representative on the >> TEI2013 Programme Committee. While it isn't necessary for it to >> be someone who will be attending, it is beneficial IMHO. I happen >> to know already that I'll be unable to attend this year's >> Conference and so feel that someone else should be on the >> Programme Committee this year. >> >> If you think you might be able to attend the TEI2013 conference, >> happening in Italy in early October, and are interested in being >> the Council's representative to the TEI2013 Programme Committee >> please let me know. I'll pass the first name I get on to the board. >> >> Best wishes, >> >> -James >> >> -- >> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Jan 8 12:52:53 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 12:52:53 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] attribute names used in classes which are duplicated on elements In-Reply-To: <078B8ED1-305F-459C-BDD8-29E5273C33AD@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <078B8ED1-305F-459C-BDD8-29E5273C33AD@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EC5CF5.6070709@ultraslavonic.info> On 1/8/2013 12:13 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > As per FR 3567935, I have compiled a catalogue at > of all the cases where an attribute name defined in a class is also used on an element. > This happens 49 times. Each of them needs examining to see whether they can now be > replaced with class membership and local override of the given attribute. > > you can see the catalogue as an editable spreadsheet at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhciBT9b4XaZdEQ1bmZ6emF0ck9GQU9sWDlFSlRkUFE > (and with better formatting and links at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/duplatts.html). > > this raises many questions. A simple one: > > /@ref is pretty much the same as att.canonical/@ref, but if we > add to att.canonical, it gains @key as well. Is that a > Good Thing or a Bad Thing? obviously we can have the status quo, > by adding to If I understand correctly, these sorts of questions are not included in your spreadsheet and have to be discovered by looking at each element in column D, and seeing whether it lacks any of the attributes that come along with those in the class in column B. And then we decide whether we think it's good to add those attributes, keep them out using mode="delete", or not use the class at all. > I think I could go ahead and do 90% of these myself by common sense, but > thats not sensible :-}. I suggest that we use that spreadsheet > to look at some of these cases and add a decision/recommendation/vote > to the first column. choices may be: > > easy: make all elements members of class > hard: make elements members of class, but with adjustments (i.e. only having some attributes from class, overriding description) > harder: some elements only, needs careful thought > impossible: the attributes are definitely not the same beast > > I have some suggestions already Since you've added your suggestions there already, I guess we need to put "SR: " in front of each and then let people add their own votes on separate lines in each cell in column A. > Then at a second stage someone can go in and action each case. For each "hard" we're going to have to decide which attributes will be included and which will have mode="delete". And for each "harder", we're going to have to say which elements will get the membership class. So I feel that these two labels won't actually help us reach consensus on these questions, and in fact, if two people choosing one of these labels are assuming different sets of attributes or elements to be affected, we might have less consensus than it appears. In short, I feel we need a different method to tackle this problem. Do we dare create a ticket for each row in the table and let people propose and discuss how to handle the affected elements and attributes? K. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 13:07:02 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 18:07:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] attribute names used in classes which are duplicated on elements In-Reply-To: <50EC5CF5.6070709@ultraslavonic.info> References: <078B8ED1-305F-459C-BDD8-29E5273C33AD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EC5CF5.6070709@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3E4F2AA0-6CB1-47D2-A766-45EB8F2036D5@it.ox.ac.uk> On 8 Jan 2013, at 17:52, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> /@ref is pretty much the same as att.canonical/@ref, but if we >> add to att.canonical, it gains @key as well. Is that a >> Good Thing or a Bad Thing? obviously we can have the status quo, >> by adding to > > If I understand correctly, these sorts of questions are not included in > your spreadsheet and have to be discovered by looking at each element in > column D, and seeing whether it lacks any of the attributes that come > along with those in the class in column B. And then we decide whether > we think it's good to add those attributes, keep them out using > mode="delete", or not use the class at all. correct. thats what I am imagining you doing >> >> I have some suggestions already > > Since you've added your suggestions there already, I guess we need to > put "SR: " in front of each and then let people add their own votes on > separate lines in each cell in column A. well, I'd say thats over-problematizing it. just override my suggestion if its wrong. i honestly doubt we'll fight over it. just add more prose as needed. > >> Then at a second stage someone can go in and action each case. > > For each "hard" we're going to have to decide which attributes will be > included and which will have mode="delete". And for each "harder", > we're going to have to say which elements will get the membership class. yup. and the cases where the description needs a local override. > So I feel that these two labels won't actually help us reach consensus > on these questions, and in fact, if two people choosing one of these > labels are assuming different sets of attributes or elements to be > affected, we might have less consensus than it appears. i'd say just write prose in column A to make clear what the status is, as much as is needed. > > In short, I feel we need a different method to tackle this problem. Do > we dare create a ticket for each row in the table and let people propose > and discuss how to handle the affected elements and attributes? > please god no. 150 extra tickets in SF? oh how I hate using that clumsy system. honest, I claim its easier than you think to sort most of these. @type will take a month of someone's life one day, however, -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 13:14:02 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 18:14:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] attribute names used in classes which are duplicated on elements In-Reply-To: <3E4F2AA0-6CB1-47D2-A766-45EB8F2036D5@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <078B8ED1-305F-459C-BDD8-29E5273C33AD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EC5CF5.6070709@ultraslavonic.info> <3E4F2AA0-6CB1-47D2-A766-45EB8F2036D5@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EC61EA.30602@kcl.ac.uk> On 2013-01-08 18:07, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 8 Jan 2013, at 17:52, Kevin Hawkins > wrote: >> In short, I feel we need a different method to tackle this problem. Do >> we dare create a ticket for each row in the table and let people propose >> and discuss how to handle the affected elements and attributes? >> > please god no. 150 extra tickets in SF? oh how I hate using that clumsy system. > > honest, I claim its easier than you think to sort most of these. @type > will take a month of someone's life one day, however, I agree. Most of these can be settled by one person looking at them and making a decision/recommendation. The few that remain (even if that's a dozen or more) could conceivably be ticketed (in groups or singly), but only when we're tried and failed to resolve them in this way. G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 F: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jan 8 13:15:01 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 10:15:01 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] attribute names used in classes which are duplicated on elements In-Reply-To: <078B8ED1-305F-459C-BDD8-29E5273C33AD@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <078B8ED1-305F-459C-BDD8-29E5273C33AD@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EC6225.9080409@uvic.ca> Hi there, On 13-01-08 09:13 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > As per FR 3567935, I have compiled a catalogue at > of all the cases where an attribute name defined in a class is also used on an element. > This happens 49 times. Each of them needs examining to see whether they can now be > replaced with class membership and local override of the given attribute. > > you can see the catalogue as an editable spreadsheet at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhciBT9b4XaZdEQ1bmZ6emF0ck9GQU9sWDlFSlRkUFE > (and with better formatting and links at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/duplatts.html). > > this raises many questions. A simple one: > > /@ref is pretty much the same as att.canonical/@ref, but if we > add to att.canonical, it gains @key as well. Is that a > Good Thing or a Bad Thing? obviously we can have the status quo, > by adding to I don't think we should add @key to anything, given that we're thinking of deprecating it. > I think I could go ahead and do 90% of these myself by common sense, but > thats not sensible :-}. I suggest that we use that spreadsheet > to look at some of these cases and add a decision/recommendation/vote > to the first column. choices may be: > > easy: make all elements members of class > hard: make elements members of class, but with adjustments (i.e. only having some attributes from class, overriding description) > harder: some elements only, needs careful thought > impossible: the attributes are definitely not the same beast > > I have some suggestions already > > Then at a second stage someone can go in and action each case. One question I raised on the ticket was that with @type and @target, more than one class exists. Should we be aiming to collapse those classes into one? Cheers, Martin > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 13:21:32 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 18:21:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] attribute names used in classes which are duplicated on elements In-Reply-To: <50EC6225.9080409@uvic.ca> References: <078B8ED1-305F-459C-BDD8-29E5273C33AD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EC6225.9080409@uvic.ca> Message-ID: On 8 Jan 2013, at 18:15, Martin Holmes wrote: >> /@ref is pretty much the same as att.canonical/@ref, but if we >> add to att.canonical, it gains @key as well. Is that a >> Good Thing or a Bad Thing? obviously we can have the status quo, >> by adding to > > I don't think we should add @key to anything, given that we're thinking > of deprecating it. > but when we do so, we'll deprecate it in att. canonical, so it will apply to everyone. arguably more honest. >> Then at a second stage someone can go in and action each case. > > One question I raised on the ticket was that with @type and @target, > more than one class exists. Should we be aiming to collapse those > classes into one? at first blush, simply too hard, IMHO we can either a) do the simpler cases first, and leave @type or b) tackle @type head on and clean up others at leisure my innate laziness suggests a), but b) is equally sensible. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jan 8 13:35:42 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 10:35:42 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] attribute names used in classes which are duplicated on elements In-Reply-To: References: <078B8ED1-305F-459C-BDD8-29E5273C33AD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EC6225.9080409@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50EC66FE.8030405@uvic.ca> On 13-01-08 10:21 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 8 Jan 2013, at 18:15, Martin Holmes > wrote: >>> /@ref is pretty much the same as att.canonical/@ref, but if we >>> add to att.canonical, it gains @key as well. Is that a >>> Good Thing or a Bad Thing? obviously we can have the status quo, >>> by adding to >> >> I don't think we should add @key to anything, given that we're thinking >> of deprecating it. >> > but when we do so, we'll deprecate it in att. canonical, > so it will apply to everyone. arguably more honest. True, but in the meantime we'd be providing a new opportunity for people to use @key in a new context, only to deprecate it soon after. >>> Then at a second stage someone can go in and action each case. >> >> One question I raised on the ticket was that with @type and @target, >> more than one class exists. Should we be aiming to collapse those >> classes into one? > > at first blush, simply too hard, IMHO > > we can either > > a) do the simpler cases first, and leave @type > or > b) tackle @type head on and clean up others at leisure > > my innate laziness suggests a), but b) is equally sensible. +1 for laziness and low-hanging fruit. I think @type is a different species of problem, to be honest. I've always felt that @type and @subtype should be generic attributes with no suggested values in att.global, and where we're inclined to suggest or prescribe values, a separate attribute should be created with a more precise name -- list/@format, factuality/@value, or whatever. Cheers, Martin > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > . > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 15:57:47 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 20:57:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] attribute names used in classes which are duplicated on elements In-Reply-To: <50EC66FE.8030405@uvic.ca> References: <078B8ED1-305F-459C-BDD8-29E5273C33AD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EC6225.9080409@uvic.ca> <50EC66FE.8030405@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50EC884B.7030507@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 08/01/13 18:35, Martin Holmes wrote: > > On 13-01-08 10:21 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> On 8 Jan 2013, at 18:15, Martin Holmes >> wrote: >>>> /@ref is pretty much the same as att.canonical/@ref, but if we >>>> add to att.canonical, it gains @key as well. Is that a >>>> Good Thing or a Bad Thing? obviously we can have the status quo, >>>> by adding to >>> I don't think we should add @key to anything, given that we're thinking >>> of deprecating it. >>> >> but when we do so, we'll deprecate it in att. canonical, >> so it will apply to everyone. arguably more honest. > True, but in the meantime we'd be providing a new opportunity for people > to use @key in a new context, only to deprecate it soon after. Maybe we might revise our view on the heinousness of @key ? (cf recent discussion about lb/@ed) From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jan 8 17:32:54 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 14:32:54 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] attribute names used in classes which are duplicated on elements In-Reply-To: <50EC884B.7030507@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <078B8ED1-305F-459C-BDD8-29E5273C33AD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EC6225.9080409@uvic.ca> <50EC66FE.8030405@uvic.ca> <50EC884B.7030507@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EC9E96.2040603@uvic.ca> On 13-01-08 12:57 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 08/01/13 18:35, Martin Holmes wrote: >> >> On 13-01-08 10:21 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> On 8 Jan 2013, at 18:15, Martin Holmes >>> wrote: >>>>> /@ref is pretty much the same as att.canonical/@ref, but if we >>>>> add to att.canonical, it gains @key as well. Is that a >>>>> Good Thing or a Bad Thing? obviously we can have the status quo, >>>>> by adding to >>>> I don't think we should add @key to anything, given that we're thinking >>>> of deprecating it. >>>> >>> but when we do so, we'll deprecate it in att. canonical, >>> so it will apply to everyone. arguably more honest. >> True, but in the meantime we'd be providing a new opportunity for people >> to use @key in a new context, only to deprecate it soon after. > > Maybe we might revise our view on the heinousness of @key ? (cf recent > discussion about lb/@ed) I don't think I'm going to revise my view, to be honest. I don't think it's heinous; I just think better options exist (private uri schemes + dereferencing mechanisms), and I think that as we're continually expanding the TEI in response to needs, we should also be trying to deprecate and eventually remove cruft. The discussion of lb/@ed concluded that we should keep @ed for backwards compatibility, but add @edRef because it's better; then eventually we can deprecate @ed too. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 17:43:51 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 22:43:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] lb/@ed agayne Message-ID: I'd like to invoke the "you have 48 hours to say nay" convention on lb/@ed my proposed plan of action if there is no protest is 1. make data.code have the same datatype as data.word 2. add @edRef to att.sourced, with the data.pointer datatype with appropriate examples added for @edRef. would it be sensible for the example @edRef to point to a ? -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jan 8 18:28:04 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 15:28:04 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] lb/@ed agayne In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50ECAB84.9040508@uvic.ca> Shouldn't @edRef be one-to-infinity data.pointers? Cheers, Martin On 13-01-08 02:43 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'd like to invoke the "you have 48 hours to say nay" convention on lb/@ed > > my proposed plan of action if there is no protest is > > 1. make data.code have the same datatype as data.word > 2. add @edRef to att.sourced, with the data.pointer datatype > > with appropriate examples added for @edRef. > > would it be sensible for the example @edRef to point to a ? > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 18:44:07 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 23:44:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] lb/@ed agayne In-Reply-To: <50ECAB84.9040508@uvic.ca> References: <50ECAB84.9040508@uvic.ca> Message-ID: On 8 Jan 2013, at 23:28, Martin Holmes wrote: > Shouldn't @edRef be one-to-infinity data.pointers? > sorry, yes, I assumed that -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 9 10:42:49 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 15:42:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] lb/@ed agayne In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50ED8FF9.7030007@it.ox.ac.uk> For the record I agree with this. (While silence provides assumed consent, active agreement is allowed and reinforces that we agree ;-) ) -James On 08/01/13 22:43, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'd like to invoke the "you have 48 hours to say nay" convention on lb/@ed > > my proposed plan of action if there is no protest is > > 1. make data.code have the same datatype as data.word > 2. add @edRef to att.sourced, with the data.pointer datatype > > with appropriate examples added for @edRef. > > would it be sensible for the example @edRef to point to a ? -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Jan 9 12:06:48 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 09:06:48 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] lb/@ed agayne In-Reply-To: <50ED8FF9.7030007@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50ED8FF9.7030007@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EDA3A8.101@uvic.ca> +1 from me. I see no reason why @edRef shouldn't point to a . Cheers, Martin On 13-01-09 07:42 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > For the record I agree with this. > > (While silence provides assumed consent, active agreement is > allowed and reinforces that we agree ;-) ) > > -James > > On 08/01/13 22:43, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> I'd like to invoke the "you have 48 hours to say nay" convention on lb/@ed >> >> my proposed plan of action if there is no protest is >> >> 1. make data.code have the same datatype as data.word >> 2. add @edRef to att.sourced, with the data.pointer datatype >> >> with appropriate examples added for @edRef. >> >> would it be sensible for the example @edRef to point to a ? > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Jan 9 12:23:37 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 09:23:37 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Please weigh in on this debate Message-ID: <50EDA799.5020202@uvic.ca> Hi all, Lou and I are having a discussion on this ticket: and I'd like to get some other people to provide input on it. Could you take a look, and comment if you can? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 9 13:13:20 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2013 18:13:20 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] lb/@ed agayne In-Reply-To: <50ED8FF9.7030007@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50ED8FF9.7030007@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EDB340.9050002@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 08/01/13 22:43, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> I'd like to invoke the "you have 48 hours to say nay" convention on lb/@ed >> >> my proposed plan of action if there is no protest is >> >> 1. make data.code have the same datatype as data.word does this mean (a) replace the definition for data.code (currently "anyURI") with that for data,word (currently a rather hairy regexp) (b) replace the reference to "anyURI" with a reference to data.word (c) replace the definition for @ed (currently a reference to data.code) with a reference to data.word I think I would vote for (c) or (b) but not for (a) >> 2. add @edRef to att.sourced, with the data.pointer datatype >> >> with appropriate examples added for @edRef. > would it be sensible for the example @edRef to point to a ? No objection to that ... (assuming that this is not another case for the attribute which is not @corresp) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 9 15:23:06 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 20:23:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] lb/@ed agayne In-Reply-To: <50EDB340.9050002@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50ED8FF9.7030007@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EDB340.9050002@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 9 Jan 2013, at 18:13, Lou Burnard wrote: > does this mean > > (a) replace the definition for data.code (currently "anyURI") > with that for data,word (currently a rather hairy regexp) > (b) replace the reference to "anyURI" with a reference to data.word > (c) replace the definition for @ed (currently a reference to > data.code) with a reference to data.word > > I think I would vote for (c) or (b) but not for (a) well, actually, I was thinking of (a), in order to preserve the singular characteristics of data.code. but I have switched to (b), which has the same outcome >>> with appropriate examples added for @edRef. > >> would it be sensible for the example @edRef to point to a ? > > No objection to that ... (assuming that this is not another case for the > attribute which is not @corresp) ah well, not sure we want to go into the many very similar but slightly variants of the "attribute which points at something sourcelike"..... changes duly committed to att.sourced -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Jan 10 09:35:58 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 09:35:58 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TEI2013: Programme Committee In-Reply-To: <9e5c02c4-4419-4c36-ac11-975b3dccd168@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <50EC0B6B.7090003@it.ox.ac.uk> <9e5c02c4-4419-4c36-ac11-975b3dccd168@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20718.53710.69059.927777@emt.ad.brown.edu> I'll throw a bid in for next year, then. :-) (I was on the programme committee every year from 2002 to 2010, IIRC, so a few years away is not a bad idea.) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 09:37:30 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:37:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal Message-ID: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> with regard to the new element (http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-media.html) I propose to - make mimeType mandatory - change the examples of @type to use @mimeType (and associated prose) - move all those attributes to a class (from media, graphic, binary object) called att. graphical why not @type? because I think thats not specific enough. I want to force people to say what this beast is any anti-votes? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 09:44:52 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:44:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: You will need to change the prose a bit too since it suggests using @type as a simplification for mimetype Sent from my HTC ----- Reply message ----- From: "Sebastian Rahtz" To: "TEI Council" Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal Date: Thu, Jan 10, 2013 14:37 with regard to the new element (http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-media.html) I propose to - make mimeType mandatory - change the examples of @type to use @mimeType (and associated prose) - move all those attributes to a class (from media, graphic, binary object) called att. graphical why not @type? because I think thats not specific enough. I want to force people to say what this beast is any anti-votes? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 09:47:53 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:47:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <5A5E0B16-D83F-4AB9-AE7B-77EB5B7E5C5C@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <5A5E0B16-D83F-4AB9-AE7B-77EB5B7E5C5C@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <787f29a9-61d6-439b-b8f7-421d4e472633@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 10 Jan 2013, at 14:44, Lou Burnard wrote: > You will need to change the prose a bit too since it suggests using @type as a simplification for mime type yes indeed. that was my issue - i thought that use of @type as a simplification is a premature and unneeded optimisation, and it is better to keep @type for future purposes as yet unknown -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jan 10 11:21:03 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 08:21:03 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> Good, but I don't like att.graphical. may perfectly well be audio, or some other things that doesn't exist yet. How about att.media, and how about making it a member of att.internetMedia, so the members inherit @mimeType through that? Cheers, Martin On 13-01-10 06:37 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > with regard to the new element (http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-media.html) > I propose to > > - make mimeType mandatory > - change the examples of @type to use @mimeType (and associated prose) > - move all those attributes to a class (from media, graphic, binary object) called att. graphical > > why not @type? because I think thats not specific enough. I want to force people to say > what this beast is > > any anti-votes? > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 11:30:33 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:30:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> On 10 Jan 2013, at 16:21, Martin Holmes wrote: > Good, but I don't like att.graphical. may perfectly well be > audio, or some other things that doesn't exist yet. How about att.media, > and how about making it a member of att.internetMedia, so the members > inherit @mimeType through that? > ok -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 13:25:25 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 18:25:25 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 10/01/13 16:30, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 10 Jan 2013, at 16:21, Martin Holmes > wrote: > >> Good, but I don't like att.graphical. may perfectly well be >> audio, or some other things that doesn't exist yet. How about att.media, >> and how about making it a member of att.internetMedia, so the members >> inherit @mimeType through that? >> > ok > if you're going to make mimetype obligatory, why not just add all the other attributes to the existing att.internetMedia class? (I still think requiring mimetype is a bad idea, btw) From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Jan 10 13:50:13 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:50:13 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] lb/@ed agayne In-Reply-To: <50EDB340.9050002@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50ED8FF9.7030007@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EDB340.9050002@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20719.3429.509017.275494@emt.ad.brown.edu> > (a) replace the definition for data.code (currently > "anyURI") with that for data,word (currently a rather hairy regexp) > (b) replace the reference to "anyURI" with a reference to data.word > (c) replace the definition for @ed (currently a reference > to data.code) with a reference to data.word Like Lou, I shy away from (a). I distinctly prefer (c). I'm pretty sure most any value currently valid against data.code will remain valid against data.word. > > would it be sensible for the example @edRef to point to a ? Yes, or a . > No objection to that ... (assuming that this is not another case > for the attribute which is not @corresp) I got lost. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Jan 10 14:19:12 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 14:19:12 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20719.5168.561280.228366@emt.ad.brown.edu> I have not folowed this completely (being unfamiliar with ), but also balked at the name att.graphical. An att.internetMedia seems like a reasoanble way to go. > > Good, but I don't like att.graphical. may perfectly well be > > audio, or some other things that doesn't exist yet. How about > > att.media, and how about making it a member of att.internetMedia, > > so the members inherit @mimeType through that? > > > ok From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jan 10 14:28:03 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:28:03 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> On 13-01-10 10:25 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 10/01/13 16:30, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> On 10 Jan 2013, at 16:21, Martin Holmes >> wrote: >> >>> Good, but I don't like att.graphical. may perfectly well be >>> audio, or some other things that doesn't exist yet. How about att.media, >>> and how about making it a member of att.internetMedia, so the members >>> inherit @mimeType through that? >>> >> ok >> > > if you're going to make mimetype obligatory, why not just add all the > other attributes to the existing att.internetMedia class? Because there's nothing explicitly "internet" about media files, presumably. A mime type is actually an "Internet Media Type" , but these other things are not. I'd be in favour of putting @mimeType in att.media, though, and getting rid of its class. > > (I still think requiring mimetype is a bad idea, btw) Why? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 15:34:50 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:34:50 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] lb/@ed agayne In-Reply-To: <20719.3429.509017.275494@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <50ED8FF9.7030007@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EDB340.9050002@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.3429.509017.275494@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <26394A50-9410-4C53-BB67-F58ECF64A071@it.ox.ac.uk> On 10 Jan 2013, at 18:50, Syd Bauman wrote: >> (a) replace the definition for data.code (currently >> "anyURI") with that for data,word (currently a rather hairy regexp) >> (b) replace the reference to "anyURI" with a reference to data.word >> (c) replace the definition for @ed (currently a reference >> to data.code) with a reference to data.word > > Like Lou, I shy away from (a). I distinctly prefer (c). I'm pretty > sure most any value currently valid against data.code will remain > valid against data.word. > the reason for keeping data.code in the loop is because while its syntactically data.word, its at a slightly higher level semantically anyway, see what you think of http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-att.sourced.html and links therefrom feel free to edit, obv. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 15:36:16 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:36:16 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <912B7A66-594D-4A1B-A7D6-A76E3147F441@it.ox.ac.uk> On 10 Jan 2013, at 19:28, Martin Holmes wrote: > > I'd be in favour of putting @mimeType in att.media, though, and getting > rid of its class. > I thought of that, but ptr, ref, equiv would also be affected -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 16:45:18 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:45:18 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 10/01/13 19:28, Martin Holmes wrote: > >> if you're going to make mimetype obligatory, why not just add all the >> other attributes to the existing att.internetMedia class? > Because there's nothing explicitly "internet" about media files, > presumably. A mime type is actually an "Internet Media Type" > , but these other > things are not. But if you're making them all take a mime type then surely they *are* all "internet media"? Dunno what "these other things" are, > > (I still think requiring mimetype is a bad idea, btw) > Why? Because most of us can say whether something is a video or an audio, without knowing (or caring) necessarily what its internet media type is > > Cheers, > Martin > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 16:57:55 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:57:55 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 10 Jan 2013, at 21:45, Lou Burnard wrote: > > But if you're making them all take a mime type then surely they *are* > all "internet media"? only has it compulsory, tho >> Why? > > Because most of us can say whether something is a video or an audio, > without knowing (or caring) necessarily what its internet media type is saying is fine for your average Czech human, I am sure, but it is not much use for a computer. I think these things should be machine-readable using public standards where possible. why invent our own ad hoc ontology when a perfectly good one exists? you may well ripost that the "file" command does a damn fine job of _guessing_ mime types, but a) that is beyond the reach of most people, and b) its not infallible. but I may well be wrong. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 17:09:17 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 22:09:17 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 10/01/13 21:57, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 10 Jan 2013, at 21:45, Lou Burnard > wrote: > >> But if you're making them all take a mime type then surely they *are* >> all "internet media"? > only has it compulsory, tho Ah yes, I had forgotten that we now have the ability to make things members of a class, and then tweak what that membership means a bit in some cases. In this case (making it mandatory for one class member, but not the others) this seems like a very good idea, but ... Using the same trick to actually *remove* an attribute provided by the class (i.e. @url on binaryObject) is pretty mind-blowing though. Being in an att class means you get the attributes that class provides -- what sort of club allows you to claim you're a member of it even if you refuse to wear the club colours? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 17:17:32 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 22:17:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <37016cff-df17-4322-a433-19a9b92c6129@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 10 Jan 2013, at 22:09, Lou Burnard wrote: > Ah yes, I had forgotten that we now have the ability to make things members of a class, and then tweak what that membership means a bit in some cases. its powerful, dangerous and not even fully implemented... as you'll know if you watch the Jenkins logs :-{ > > Using the same trick to actually *remove* an attribute provided by the class (i.e. @url on binaryObject) is pretty mind-blowing though. Being in an att class means you get the attributes that class provides -- what sort of club allows you to claim you're a member of it even if you refuse to wear the club colours? it's always been possible in ODD to do this. we're just letting you say you never even _smoked_ @url, let alone inhaled when you see that joins att.typed, but eschews what it considers the affectation of @subtype, does that bother you slightly less? seriously, if you think this is making a rent in the space-time continuum through which Evil may flow, speak now, cos I have already used it in several places. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 17:21:29 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 22:21:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 10/01/13 22:17, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > when you see that joins att.typed, but eschews what it considers the affectation of @subtype, does that bother you slightly less? No, it bothers me just as much > seriously, if you think this is making a rent in the space-time continuum through which Evil may flow, speak now, cos I have already used it in several places. Well, yes, metaphors apart it does seem to me that if we allow attributes to be deleted from some members of an attribute class, but not others, we are rather calling into question just what "membership of an attribute class" means. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 17:30:42 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 22:30:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <035a7341-8363-4085-82b3-0dff611d9973@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 10 Jan 2013, at 22:21, Lou Burnard wrote: > > Well, yes, metaphors apart it does seem to me that if we allow attributes to be deleted from some members of an attribute class, but not others, we are rather calling into question just what "membership of an attribute class" means. > It's like a macro; its a convenient, named, way of doing a set of common things. you can temper it by saying eg "yes I want the breakfast menu, but my standard order is to hold the eggs". if the breakfast menu tomorrow gains an extra ingredient (black pudding), you'll get your usual eggless dish, but with the black pudding. sorry about more metaphors. so if we add @zdepth to att.media, gets it, even though it opts out of @url I do appreciate your point; but I thought this was inherent in the proposal of about a year ago which was implemented in the summer, so it is scary to have it brought into doubt now. Other readers need to get their heads round the discussion, and decide whether they are as unnerved as Lou by this. If so, some rapid backtracking is in order. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 17:39:37 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 22:39:37 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 10/01/13 22:30, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 10 Jan 2013, at 22:21, Lou Burnard > wrote: >> Well, yes, metaphors apart it does seem to me that if we allow attributes to be deleted from some members of an attribute class, but not others, we are rather calling into question just what "membership of an attribute class" means. >> > It's like a macro; its a convenient, named, way of doing a set of common things. you can temper it by saying eg "yes I want the breakfast menu, > but my standard order is to hold the eggs". if the breakfast menu tomorrow gains an extra ingredient (black pudding), you'll get your > usual eggless dish, but with the black pudding. sorry about more metaphors. I'm thinking about it the other way round. If I see something on the menu claiming to be "English breakfast" I will feel cheated if the hotel has unilaterally decided eggs is off. Where will does it tell me that on the menu? Most people, I claim, don't want to modify or understand the class system. For them, the class system is just a shorthand way of saying "you get these attributes". What we discussed during the summer was ways of constraining the behaviour or options available with some of the attributes, e.g. adding a closed valList. OK, removing an attribute entirely is a pretty effective way of constraining its values, but it still seems to me a horse of a different colour. However, I will now shut up and see what other interested parties think. If there are any, and they do. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Jan 10 19:06:02 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 19:06:02 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> I'm certainly an interested party, but I'm not sufficiently well versed in the happenings since the ODD meeting to speak intelligently. I can go back through the archives, etc., but honestly, I'm still trying to catch up on the rest of the conversations that have occurred over past couple of months. Maybe you two can quickly frame the discussion. Here is what I infer has happened. Let me know if and where I'm off target. * Since the dawn of P5, if an says "I am a member of att.foo", it gains the attrs defined in att.foo. * Since shortly thereafter (and before release of P5) an element could also say "but I don't want that one" using . * The Guidelines, however, only take advantage of this capability to remove @subtype from and . Users, of course, can do it in their own customization ODDs all they want. (One could, supposedly, delete all the attributes that are part of att.foo.) * Something happened this summer to make this more obvious or easier. How am I doing so far? > However, I will now shut up and see what other interested parties > think. If there are any, and they do. From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jan 10 19:25:01 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:25:01 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EF5BDD.8020505@uvic.ca> On 13-01-10 02:21 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 10/01/13 22:17, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > when you see that <abbr> joins att.typed, but eschews what it > considers the affectation of @subtype, does that bother you slightly less? > > No, it bothers me just as much > > > seriously, if you think this is making a rent in the space-time > continuum through which Evil may flow, speak now, cos I have already > used it in several places. > > Well, yes, metaphors apart it does seem to me that if we allow > attributes to be deleted from some members of an attribute class, but > not others, we are rather calling into question just what "membership of > an attribute class" means. Membership of an attribute class does not only consist in claiming membership; it also includes any subsequent modifications (such as deleting attributes) that are made to what the class provides. In other words, membership is not simply binary. Attribute classes are handy tools for gathering together sets of attributes likely to be used together, not, surely, a way of claiming that their members all have identical needs. If you join the Masons but don't go to all the meetings, you're still a Mason, aren't you? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jan 10 20:47:31 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 20:47:31 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] [TEI-notify] SF.net SVN: tei:[11278] trunk/P5/Source/Guidelines/en/CO-CoreElements.xml In-Reply-To: <50DF15B9.7090908@ultraslavonic.info> References: <E1Too4z-0005wE-DR@sfp-svn-1.v30.ch3.sourceforge.com> <50DEECAB.3090508@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50DEF92F.7080400@ultraslavonic.info> <50DF1181.60800@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50DF15B9.7090908@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <50EF6F33.9040203@ultraslavonic.info> I've come back to this with fresh eyes ... On 12/29/12 11:09 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 12/29/12 10:51 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> On 29/12/12 14:07, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> >>> Actually, the prose no longer says this (see below), so in this latest >>> commit I corrected the example so that the Merlin example no longer has >>> an inferred value of @level. >> >> I'm referring to the following: >> >> "In this case, the analytic title <q>Notes on Manuscripts of the >> <title level="m" xml:lang="fr">Proph?cies de Merlin needs no >> level >> attribute because it is directly contained by an analytic >> element. The monographic title it contains similarly needs no >> level attribute, since it is a constituent of the analytic >> title. " >> >> which follows an example in which the @level attribute *is* supplied, on >> both s. I think that's rather confusing. > > Fair enough, even though the "needs to <att>level</att> attribute" is > still strictly true. (I meant "needs no <att>level</att> attribute".) >>>> A sentence has been added earlier saying that we recommend always >>>> supplying the @level attribute, which I don't recall our having >>>> discussed as such. >>> >>> Following the sentence "When it appears directly within an >>> <gi>analytic</gi>, <gi>monogr</gi>, or <gi>series</gi> element, >>> <gi>title</gi> is interpreted as belonging to the appropriate level.", >>> the Guidelines used to say: >>> >>> When it appears elsewhere, its <att>level</att> attribute should be used >>> to signal its bibliographic level. >>> >>> But at revision 7964, Lou changed it to: >>> >>> However, it is recommended that the <att>level</att> attribute should >>> always be used to signal this explicitly >> >> No need to be ad hominem about this. I stand by my assertion that this >> recommendation needs more justification (f @level is not >> >> mandatory on <title> (which it currently isn't) then we ought to >> explain >> >> in what circs it can be omitted, and how its absence is to be >> >> interpreted, (as we currently do more or less). And we ought to have >> >> some examples showing it being omitted, obv. > > Possibly, though the "however" sentence follows the one about appearing > directly within <analytic>, <monogr>, and <series>, so it seems to me > that we are giving this recommendation only in the case that <title> > appears directly within <analytic>, <monogr>, and <series>. Maybe that > recommendation should be expanded to other positions in which <title> > may appear (such as in a <bibl> or elsewhere in the document). Or we > should revert this particular change from revision 7964. I have tried to clarify things: http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tei/trunk/P5/Source/Guidelines/en/CO-CoreElements.xml?r1=11371&r2=11370&pathrev=11371 --Kevin From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jan 10 21:18:08 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:18:08 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] [TEI-notify] SF.net SVN: tei:[11278] trunk/P5/Source/Guidelines/en/CO-CoreElements.xml In-Reply-To: <50EF7511.6050407@uvic.ca> References: <E1Too4z-0005wE-DR@sfp-svn-1.v30.ch3.sourceforge.com> <50DEECAB.3090508@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50DEF92F.7080400@ultraslavonic.info> <50DF1181.60800@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50DF15B9.7090908@ultraslavonic.info> <50EF6F33.9040203@ultraslavonic.info> <50EF7511.6050407@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50EF7660.8070106@ultraslavonic.info> Yes indeed. :( Now fixed at revision 11372. On 1/10/13 9:12 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > HI Kevin, > > I think in this bit: > > the monographic title contained with it, <q xml:lang="fr">Proph?cies de > Merlin</q>, is not semantically erroneous because it is not directly > contained by the <gi>analytic</gi> element. > > it should be "contained _within_ it", shouldn't it? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-01-10 05:47 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> I've come back to this with fresh eyes ... >> >> On 12/29/12 11:09 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> On 12/29/12 10:51 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>>> On 29/12/12 14:07, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>> >>>>> Actually, the prose no longer says this (see below), so in this latest >>>>> commit I corrected the example so that the Merlin example no longer >>>>> has >>>>> an inferred value of @level. >>>> >>>> I'm referring to the following: >>>> >>>> "In this case, the analytic title <q>Notes on Manuscripts of the >>>> <title level="m" xml:lang="fr">Proph?cies de Merlin >>>> needs no >>>> level >>>> attribute because it is directly contained by an analytic >>>> element. The monographic title it contains similarly needs no >>>> level attribute, since it is a constituent of the analytic >>>> title. " >>>> >>>> which follows an example in which the @level attribute *is* >>>> supplied, on >>>> both s. I think that's rather confusing. >>> >>> Fair enough, even though the "needs to <att>level</att> attribute" is >>> still strictly true. >> >> (I meant "needs no <att>level</att> attribute".) >> >>>>>> A sentence has been added earlier saying that we recommend always >>>>>> supplying the @level attribute, which I don't recall our having >>>>>> discussed as such. >>>>> >>>>> Following the sentence "When it appears directly within an >>>>> <gi>analytic</gi>, <gi>monogr</gi>, or <gi>series</gi> element, >>>>> <gi>title</gi> is interpreted as belonging to the appropriate level.", >>>>> the Guidelines used to say: >>>>> >>>>> When it appears elsewhere, its <att>level</att> attribute should be >>>>> used >>>>> to signal its bibliographic level. >>>>> >>>>> But at revision 7964, Lou changed it to: >>>>> >>>>> However, it is recommended that the <att>level</att> attribute should >>>>> always be used to signal this explicitly >>>> >>>> No need to be ad hominem about this. I stand by my assertion that this >>>> recommendation needs more justification (f @level is not >>>> >> mandatory on <title> (which it currently isn't) then we ought to >>>> explain >>>> >> in what circs it can be omitted, and how its absence is to be >>>> >> interpreted, (as we currently do more or less). And we ought >>>> to have >>>> >> some examples showing it being omitted, obv. >>> >>> Possibly, though the "however" sentence follows the one about appearing >>> directly within <analytic>, <monogr>, and <series>, so it seems to me >>> that we are giving this recommendation only in the case that <title> >>> appears directly within <analytic>, <monogr>, and <series>. Maybe that >>> recommendation should be expanded to other positions in which <title> >>> may appear (such as in a <bibl> or elsewhere in the document). Or we >>> should revert this particular change from revision 7964. >> >> I have tried to clarify things: >> >> http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tei/trunk/P5/Source/Guidelines/en/CO-CoreElements.xml?r1=11371&r2=11370&pathrev=11371 >> >> >> --Kevin >> From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 03:44:42 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:44:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Jan 2013, at 00:06, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at BROWN.EDU> wrote: > > * Since the dawn of P5, if an <elementSpec> says "I am a member of > att.foo", it gains the attrs defined in att.foo. > > * Since shortly thereafter (and before release of P5) an element > could also say "but I don't want that one" using <attDef > mode="delete">. yes. its always been true that a customization can say it does not want one of the attribute class members. now we support this form of modification purely within the Guidelines themselves, before the customization comes anywhere near it. <abbr> is a member of att.typed, but rejects @subtype. So your customization cannot put that @subtype back easily, it is absent from the start of your view of the Guidelines > > * The Guidelines, however, only take advantage of this capability to > remove @subtype from <abbr> and <title>. ... > > * Something happened this summer to make this more obvious or easier. what happened last summer was the _implementation_ of this facility. it didn't exist before last July at all. I used it on <abbr> and <title> to prove it worked (and changed the <desc> as well, I think) and assumed this was what we had intended all along. this week I used it again, to make <binaryObject> a member of att.media, but remove the @url attribute from the inherited set. This is what Lou noticed, and realized that it upset him. So nothing has changed since last year, just that the uses of the facillty start to cause raised eyebrows. Your task is decide whether you think use of <attDef mode="delete" ..> should be banned in the P5 source. [no metaphors were used in the preparation of this message. possibly some anthropomorphism] -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 06:55:35 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:55:35 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 11/01/13 08:44, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > yes. its always been true that a customization can say it does not > want one of the attribute class members. now we support this form of > modification purely within the Guidelines themselves, before the > customization comes anywhere near it. <abbr> is a member of att.typed, > but rejects @subtype. So your customization cannot put that @subtype back Now I am really worried. I am a user of the Guidelines. I see that <abbr> is a member of att.typed and, being used to the idea that it will therefore have both @type and @subtype, I develop a fairly elaborate typology for my abbreviations (Yes, my name is Matthew), which includes subtyping. How do I get my @subtype back? If I *do* put it back, presumably by adding it in my ODD, is my document no longer TEI-conformant? Do I have to add my @subtype in its own namespace? Why did you decide to remove @subtype, btw? was there ever a feature request to that effect, or were you just trying to find a way of testing this new facility? >what happened last summer was the _implementation_ of this facility. it didn't exist before last July at all. I used it on <abbr> and <title> to prove it worked (and changed the <desc> as >well, I think) and assumed this was what we had intended all along. this week I used it again, to make <binaryObject> a member of att.media, but remove the @url attribute from the >inherited set. This is what Lou noticed, and realized that it upset him. So nothing has changed since last year, just that the uses of the facillty start to cause raised eyebrows. Your task is >decide whether you think use of <attDef mode="delete" ..> should be banned in the P5 source. The more I think about it, the more it upsets me! We have gone to quite some effort in the past to ensure that elements inherit all and only the attributes the need from classes, and the usual mechanism has been to define additional sub or super classes. Which works fine, though at the expense of multiplying the number of classes. This seems to to provide a different mechanism which has the side effect of nullifying the definition of what an attribute class is! Going back to the @url example, by the way: if someone attempts to restore @url to the element from which it's been deleted (binaryObject) would that also be TEI-conformant? I'd say not, since <binaryObject>'s only reason for existence is to provide inline the content which that @url would indicate. Hence I'd say that restoring @url to it would break the TEI semantic model. And hence, I argue, its presence in the attribute class from which it would (if we hadn't stopped it) inherit same is also semantically invalid. I yield to no-one in my admiration for Sebastian's work in implementing ideas we have only half formulated, but here I think implementation has been a bit too previous. i vote for an explicit ban on <attDef mode="delete" ..> in the P5 source. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 07:59:38 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:59:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Jan 2013, at 11:55, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Now I am really worried. I am a user of the Guidelines. I see that > <abbr> is a member of att. typed but you don't. you see it has a @type attribute > and, being used to the idea that it will > therefore have both @type and @subtype, I develop a fairly elaborate > typology for my abbreviations (Yes, my name is Matthew), which includes > subtyping. How do I get my @subtype back? If I *do* put it back, > presumably by adding it in my ODD, is my document no longer > TEI-conformant? Do I have to add my @subtype in its own namespace? > these are moot issues > Why did you decide to remove @subtype, btw? was there ever a feature > request to that effect, or were you just trying to find a way of testing > this new facility? no. the old <abbr> had its own local copy of @type. I replicated the effect by removing the local copy, adding it to att.typed, and then zapping subtype. so the schema is the same as it was before all as foreseen and discussed, I claim > > The more I think about it, the more it upsets me! We have gone to quite > some effort in the past to ensure that elements inherit all and only the > attributes the need from classes, and the usual mechanism has been to > define additional sub or super classes. Which works fine, though at the > expense of multiplying the number of classes. This seems to to provide a > different mechanism which has the side effect of nullifying the > definition of what an attribute class is! well, we could make up att.subtyped, which is a member of att. typed but adds a new attribute, to cope with <abbr> situation. > > Going back to the @url example, by the way: if someone attempts to > restore @url to the element from which it's been deleted (binaryObject) > would that also be TEI-conformant? I'd say not, since <binaryObject>'s > only reason for existence is to provide inline the content which that > @url would indicate. Hence I'd say that restoring @url to it would break > the TEI semantic model. And hence, I argue, its presence in the > attribute class from which it would (if we hadn't stopped it) inherit > same is also semantically invalid. i can see your argument. i think i regard att classes as less semantically significant tho > > I yield to no-one in my admiration for Sebastian's work in implementing > ideas we have only half formulated, but here I think implementation has > been a bit too previous. I think that is a _bit_ unfair. the Council told me to make the ODD @mode stuff work at source, so I did. I don't think it was previous?. for background, the SF ticket about this was https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3415801&group_id=106328&atid=644065 > i vote for an explicit ban on <attDef > mode="delete" ..> in the P5 source. I vote against that, on the grounds that a) I find it a felicitous side effect that we can zap @url from binaryObject, the concept seems natural, and b) in general we should make ODD consistent and try to avoid any special cases. if you can do mods at source level, don't limit what those mods are. of course, Lou's request can come in two flavours 1. as an editing convention, lets not use attDef mode="delete" in TEI Guideline please 2. lets make that ban part of the ODD spec and remove the implementation, and document the fact if we go for 2., then I have to say I don't think its possible before the release, so we'd have to put that off; if we go for 1, then we need to decide on whether <abbr> and <title> should gain @subtype, or revert to local copies of the attribute This is urgent. We are close to release, and there isn't a simple back-out which can be applied. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 08:21:49 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:21:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <2F7641D0-216C-4480-AA9C-B0F4F4D7901E@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <2F7641D0-216C-4480-AA9C-B0F4F4D7901E@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F011ED.3090807@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 11/01/13 12:59, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 11 Jan 2013, at 11:55, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: >> Now I am really worried. I am a user of the Guidelines. I see that >> <abbr> is a member of att. typed > but you don't. you see it has a @type attribute Interestingly, this is true for <abbr>, but not for <binaryObject>. The HTML display for the former looks just the same in the most recent build as it ever has i.e. it looks as if @type is locally defined. For binaryObject, however, there is no documentation of or reference to the att.media class attributes it now has at all, except in the declaration for the element. That surely is a bug? > no. the old <abbr> had its own local copy of @type. I replicated the > effect by removing the local copy, adding it to att.typed, and then > zapping subtype. so the schema is the same as it was before My point though is that adding it to the class (and thus gaining @subtype) is probably an improvement to the schema >> Going back to the @url example, by the way: if someone attempts to >> restore @url to the element from which it's been deleted (binaryObject) >> would that also be TEI-conformant? I'd say not, since <binaryObject>'s >> only reason for existence is to provide inline the content which that >> @url would indicate. Hence I'd say that restoring @url to it would break >> the TEI semantic model. And hence, I argue, its presence in the >> attribute class from which it would (if we hadn't stopped it) inherit >> same is also semantically invalid. > i can see your argument. i think i regard att classes as less semantically > significant tho > >> I yield to no-one in my admiration for Sebastian's work in implementing >> ideas we have only half formulated, but here I think implementation has >> been a bit too previous. > I think that is a _bit_ unfair. the Council told me to make the ODD @mode > stuff work at source, so I did. I don't think it was previous?. > > > for background, the SF ticket about this was https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3415801&group_id=106328&atid=644065ut th For the record, this ticket discusses *only* modification -- not deletion I vote against that, on the grounds that a) I find it a felicitous side effect that we can zap @url from binaryObject, the concept seems natural, and b) in general we should make ODD consistent and try to avoid any special cases. if you can do mods at source level, don't limit what those mods are. of course, Lou's request can come in two flavours 1. as an editing convention, lets not use attDef mode="delete" in TEI Guideline please 2. lets make that ban part of the ODD spec and remove the implementation, and document the fact if we go for 2., then I have to say I don't think its possible before the release, so we'd have to put that off; if we go for 1, then we need to decide on whether <abbr> and <title> should gain @subtype, or revert to local copies of the attribute My vote is for 1, and for <abbr> and <title> gaining subtitle. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 08:29:34 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:29:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F011ED.3090807@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <2F7641D0-216C-4480-AA9C-B0F4F4D7901E@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F011ED.3090807@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <a40aa1b1-3e61-4c81-ab67-9fa6f2994e19@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Jan 2013, at 13:21, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> but you don't. you see it has a @type attribute > > Interestingly, this is true for <abbr>, but not for <binaryObject>. The HTML display for the former looks just the same in the most recent build as it ever has i.e. it looks as if @type is locally defined. For binaryObject, however, there is no documentation of or reference to the att.media class attributes it now has at all, except in the declaration for the element. That surely is a bug? yup. see rebuild currently ongoing. >> effect by removing the local copy, adding it to att.typed, and then >> zapping subtype. so the schema is the same as it was before > > My point though is that adding it to the class (and thus gaining @subtype) is probably an improvement to the schema > possibly. but presumably that was explicitly rejected way back when, during the class war? > 1. as an editing convention, lets not use attDef mode="delete" in TEI Guideline please > 2. lets make that ban part of the ODD spec and remove the implementation, and document the fact > > if we go for 2., then I have to say I don't think its possible before the release, so we'd have to > put that off; if we go for 1, then we need to decide on whether <abbr> and <title> > should gain @subtype, or revert to local copies of the attribute > > > My vote is for 1, and for <abbr> and <title> gaining subtitle. what about @url on binaryObject, if you follow that line? do you a) restore @url as local att on the other elements b) make a new class which has just @url, and is a member of att.media c) add a schematron rule saying that while @url is technically legal on binaryObject, you shouldn't use it ? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jan 11 08:42:11 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:42:11 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> I am leaning towards agreeing with Lou on this. I am reminded of the scene in _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ in which Indiana Jones and ???? (Sallah) have asked the wise man Omar to read the markings on a medallion. --------- Omar: This were the old way, this says "six Kadan height - " Indiana: About seventy-two inches. Omar: Wait! [turns medallion over] Omar: "And take back one Kadan, to honor the Hebrew God whose ark this is." Indiana: Balloq's medallion only had writing on one side? You sure about that? Sallah: Positive! Indiana: Balloq's staff is too long. Indiana, Sallah: They're digging in the wrong place! --------- Consultant: This is P5, this says "member of att.typed" User: Has @type and @subtype Consultant: Wait! [scrolls down] Consultant: "but take back @subtype, we don't really want it." User: But *we* really want to use @subtype. You sure about that? Scholar: Positive! User: Then we have to put @subtype back. User, Scholar: We have to use our own namespace! --------- I'm leaning towards "as an editing convention, we generally don't use attDef mode="delete" in the source of the TEI Guidelines, and if we do, it's with great care"; but also to re-arranging the attribute classes to provide what we need. (Yes, it's a pain, but ...) att.typed becomes a class that is a member of att.typedGrossly which provides only @type, and also provided @subtype. att.media would be a member of att.mediaURLless which provides all the attrs *except* @url, and att.media defines @url itself. Then <mediaObject> is a member of att.mediaURLless, and <binaryObject> of att.media. I'm not sure that latter is needed. For @subytpe, it's perfectly reasonable that a project would want to add it back, so we should put in the effort to make sure that's not difficult. But for @url, if it really is non-sensical to have it, perhaps the fact that it would be hard for a user to add it back is not a strong argument, and we should in this case resort to deleting it from within the Guidelines. Hmmm ... From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 08:48:49 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:48:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Jan 2013, at 13:42, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu> wrote: > Consultant: This is P5, this says "member of att.typed" > User: Has @type and @subtype but what the User actually reads is http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-abbr.html so he has no idea this is implemented by partial membership of att. typed, so he has no notion of @subtype similarly, consider <alt>, which gets @target from att. typed: http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-alt.html Someone will use the phrase "smoke and mirrors" soon. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 08:59:50 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:59:50 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> Isn't that a bit misleading? I would have expected (and I think wanted) to see something like: ... att.typed (@type) So that, as with any other attribute, I can go to look at the definition of that attribute in the place where it is defined, see other examples of its use, etc. (I appreciate this is exactly what is making Lou and Syd uncomfortable, but if we somewhere carefully express this as "acquires the following attribute(s) from att.typed"--rather than "acquires att.typed, namely the following attribute(s)"--that might be easier?) So maybe what we really want to see is: ... att.typed[modified] (@type) or something? I think I feel quite strongly that if we modify a class for a single element, then that should be transparently reflected in the guidelines as well as the schema. G On 2013-01-11 13:48, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 11 Jan 2013, at 13:42, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu> > wrote: > >> Consultant: This is P5, this says "member of att.typed" >> User: Has @type and @subtype > > but what the User actually reads is > http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-abbr.html > so he has no idea this is implemented by partial membership of att. typed, so he has no notion of @subtype > > similarly, consider <alt>, which gets @target from att. typed: > http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-alt.html > > Someone will use the phrase "smoke and mirrors" soon. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 F: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 09:31:24 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:31:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <CD0B1E67-E275-4C86-8086-365B36AB8C03@it.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Jan 2013, at 13:59, Gabriel Bodard <gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk> wrote: > Isn't that a bit misleading? I would have expected (and I think wanted) > to see something like: > > ... att.typed (@type) i think the display in the HTML needs (possibly quite a lot of) work to display what is going on to best advantage. my implementation of this stuff is not great, I admit. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Jan 11 09:37:03 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 09:37:03 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F0238F.8020500@ultraslavonic.info> I agree with Syd that ... On 1/11/2013 8:42 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > For @subytpe, it's perfectly > reasonable that a project would want to add it back, so we should put > in the effort to make sure that's not difficult. And I agree with Gabby in what he writes below. On 1/11/2013 8:59 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Isn't that a bit misleading? I would have expected (and I think wanted) > to see something like: > > ... att.typed (@type) > > So that, as with any other attribute, I can go to look at the definition > of that attribute in the place where it is defined, see other examples > of its use, etc. (I appreciate this is exactly what is making Lou and > Syd uncomfortable, but if we somewhere carefully express this as > "acquires the following attribute(s) from att.typed"--rather than > "acquires att.typed, namely the following attribute(s)"--that might be > easier?) > > So maybe what we really want to see is: > > ... att.typed[modified] (@type) > > or something? > > I think I feel quite strongly that if we modify a class for a single > element, then that should be transparently reflected in the guidelines > as well as the schema. > > G > > On 2013-01-11 13:48, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 11 Jan 2013, at 13:42, Syd Bauman<Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu> >> wrote: >> >>> Consultant: This is P5, this says "member of att.typed" >>> User: Has @type and @subtype >> >> but what the User actually reads is >> http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-abbr.html >> so he has no idea this is implemented by partial membership of att. typed, so he has no notion of @subtype >> >> similarly, consider<alt>, which gets @target from att. typed: >> http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-alt.html >> >> Someone will use the phrase "smoke and mirrors" soon. >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 09:42:50 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 14:42:50 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F0238F.8020500@ultraslavonic.info> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F0238F.8020500@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <50417585-2766-47F4-AF55-59BAE4422C01@it.ox.ac.uk> the @subtype discussion seems different from the @url one. It seems simplest to to just change abbr and title to give them @subtype regardless, so i have just done that -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 10:27:58 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 15:27:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50417585-2766-47F4-AF55-59BAE4422C01@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F0238F.8020500@ultraslavonic.info> <50417585-2766-47F4-AF55-59BAE4422C01@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F02F7E.9040508@it.ox.ac.uk> This discussion clarifies things in my mind: a) On principle I think anything that has @type should have @subtype (if it can be classified it can be sub-classified). b) The main purpose for allowing local in-place modifications was to rationalise things like @type appearing in different places but having slightly different descs or suggested valLists. But this underscores a principle I think: Claiming membership in a class does *not* mean you claim everything that class provides/enables. I maybe be a member of a club, but that does not mean I also pay the extra supplement to use the gym. I vote that we should be allowed to delete attributes from a particular element's use of that class exactly as Sebastian did first. (Ok, if in this case adding @subtype is easier, I'm fine with that, see a. above) So if <elementFoo> has @type but not @subtype (for whatever reason) then I would rather it was a member of att.typed but only claimed to get @type from it than it have its own local @type c) My unfounded belief is that the majority of users look at <elementFoo> reference page and see that it has this-or-that attribute. They may notice that they get this attribute from this-or-that class, but they won't care that the desc is slightly modified or there is a slightly different suggested valList. They'll think it is good that @type on title has suggestions for types of titles rather than really vague and general types. My tuppence, -James On 11/01/13 14:42, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > the @subtype discussion seems different from the @url one. > > It seems simplest to to just change abbr and title to give them @subtype regardless, so i have just done that > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 11 11:27:27 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:27:27 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <50F03D6F.2020704@uvic.ca> I'm definitely against Lou and Syd here. I think deleting attributes is absolutely fine. The attribute classes are a convenience, not a typology. Especially when you look at something like this: > att.media would be a member of att.mediaURLless which provides all > the attrs *except* @url, and att.media defines @url itself. Then > <mediaObject> is a member of att.mediaURLless, and <binaryObject> of > att.media. Imagine being a regular user working on a customization, and trying to figure that out. It's far weirder than a deleted attribute. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-11 05:42 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > I am leaning towards agreeing with Lou on this. I am reminded of the > scene in _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ in which Indiana Jones and ???? > (Sallah) have asked the wise man Omar to read the markings on a > medallion. > --------- > Omar: This were the old way, this says "six Kadan height - " > Indiana: About seventy-two inches. > Omar: Wait! > [turns medallion over] > Omar: "And take back one Kadan, to honor the Hebrew God whose ark this is." > Indiana: Balloq's medallion only had writing on one side? You sure about that? > Sallah: Positive! > Indiana: Balloq's staff is too long. > Indiana, Sallah: They're digging in the wrong place! > --------- > Consultant: This is P5, this says "member of att.typed" > User: Has @type and @subtype > Consultant: Wait! > [scrolls down] > Consultant: "but take back @subtype, we don't really want it." > User: But *we* really want to use @subtype. You sure about that? > Scholar: Positive! > User: Then we have to put @subtype back. > User, Scholar: We have to use our own namespace! > --------- > > I'm leaning towards "as an editing convention, we generally don't use > attDef mode="delete" in the source of the TEI Guidelines, and if we > do, it's with great care"; but also to re-arranging the attribute > classes to provide what we need. (Yes, it's a pain, but ...) > > att.typed becomes a class that is a member of att.typedGrossly which > provides only @type, and also provided @subtype. > > att.media would be a member of att.mediaURLless which provides all > the attrs *except* @url, and att.media defines @url itself. Then > <mediaObject> is a member of att.mediaURLless, and <binaryObject> of > att.media. > > I'm not sure that latter is needed. For @subytpe, it's perfectly > reasonable that a project would want to add it back, so we should put > in the effort to make sure that's not difficult. But for @url, if it > really is non-sensical to have it, perhaps the fact that it would be > hard for a user to add it back is not a strong argument, and we > should in this case resort to deleting it from within the Guidelines. > > Hmmm ... > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 11 11:29:04 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 08:29:04 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> +1 from me for Gaby's view here. On 13-01-11 05:59 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Isn't that a bit misleading? I would have expected (and I think wanted) > to see something like: > > ... att.typed (@type) > > So that, as with any other attribute, I can go to look at the definition > of that attribute in the place where it is defined, see other examples > of its use, etc. (I appreciate this is exactly what is making Lou and > Syd uncomfortable, but if we somewhere carefully express this as > "acquires the following attribute(s) from att.typed"--rather than > "acquires att.typed, namely the following attribute(s)"--that might be > easier?) > > So maybe what we really want to see is: > > ... att.typed[modified] (@type) > > or something? > > I think I feel quite strongly that if we modify a class for a single > element, then that should be transparently reflected in the guidelines > as well as the schema. > > G > > On 2013-01-11 13:48, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 11 Jan 2013, at 13:42, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu> >> wrote: >> >>> Consultant: This is P5, this says "member of att.typed" >>> User: Has @type and @subtype >> >> but what the User actually reads is >> http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-abbr.html >> so he has no idea this is implemented by partial membership of att. typed, so he has no notion of @subtype >> >> similarly, consider <alt>, which gets @target from att. typed: >> http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-alt.html >> >> Someone will use the phrase "smoke and mirrors" soon. >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jan 11 11:37:40 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:37:40 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> First, +1 to Gabby, Sebastian has done a quick first-cit proof of concept, fine, but if we do allow deletions we have to spend some time to make it really clear and easy to an end user reading the tagdoc in the Guidelines. But I want to re-iterate that what I'm worried about here really (despite the lovely excerpt from Indiana Jones) is not a user getting confused about what attrs an element has, but a customizer being baffled by how to add the attribute back. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jan 11 11:45:11 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:45:11 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> Two related thoughts: * Why is this urgent? I realize we had planned for a release of the Guidelines soon (14th? 17th?), but why is that carved in stone? I'd much prefer to get this right and push the release a week later. * Elli Mylonas mentioned the possibility of leaving the tagdoc page looking pretty much as it does, but if element <foo> has deleted attribute @bar from class att.duck, then the "@bar" would be crossed out in the parenthetical list of attributes that follow "att.duck". (Just an idea.) From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 11:50:12 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:50:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> On 2013-01-11 16:45, Syd Bauman wrote: > * Why is this urgent? I realize we had planned for a release of the > Guidelines soon (14th? 17th?), but why is that carved in stone? I'd > much prefer to get this right and push the release a week later. I think if this is going to involve any kind of a major change to the current way of doing things, we want not to push next week's release back by a week (which might be a problem for Hugh who has cleared a day, for example), but to put off these changes until after this release, so that we can have several months to spot problems in the Jinks versions before we release again. (In other words, even a week isn't enough. This is supposed to be a maintenance release, not a major new re-architecture.) > * Elli Mylonas mentioned the possibility of leaving the tagdoc page > looking pretty much as it does, but if element <foo> has deleted > attribute @bar from class att.duck, then the "@bar" would be > crossed out in the parenthetical list of attributes that follow > "att.duck". (Just an idea.) I like that idea, yes. It *might* be a little bit confusing for people who don't know or care about attribute classes, but it would be pretty transparent. (Especially if a tool-tip were to add "Does not inherit the attribute @bar from att.duck" or similar.) G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 F: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Jan 11 11:56:21 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:56:21 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F04435.5080809@ultraslavonic.info> On 1/11/2013 11:50 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > On 2013-01-11 16:45, Syd Bauman wrote: >> * Why is this urgent? I realize we had planned for a release of the >> Guidelines soon (14th? 17th?), but why is that carved in stone? I'd >> much prefer to get this right and push the release a week later. > > I think if this is going to involve any kind of a major change to the > current way of doing things, we want not to push next week's release > back by a week (which might be a problem for Hugh who has cleared a day, > for example), but to put off these changes until after this release, so > that we can have several months to spot problems in the Jinks versions > before we release again. (In other words, even a week isn't enough. This > is supposed to be a maintenance release, not a major new re-architecture.) I agree that we've got a lot of last-minute things and are risking having to put out a second release a week or two later once we further fix things. I've been wondering whether we were still planning to call this a "maintenance release". My impression is that we have actually implemented more new features since the last release than we did between the last two releases. That is, this is not really a maintenance release any more. >> * Elli Mylonas mentioned the possibility of leaving the tagdoc page >> looking pretty much as it does, but if element<foo> has deleted >> attribute @bar from class att.duck, then the "@bar" would be >> crossed out in the parenthetical list of attributes that follow >> "att.duck". (Just an idea.) > > I like that idea, yes. It *might* be a little bit confusing for people > who don't know or care about attribute classes, but it would be pretty > transparent. (Especially if a tool-tip were to add "Does not inherit the > attribute @bar from att.duck" or similar.) I agree! From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 11 12:01:16 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 09:01:16 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <50F0455C.1040708@uvic.ca> On 13-01-11 08:45 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > Two related thoughts: > > * Why is this urgent? I realize we had planned for a release of the > Guidelines soon (14th? 17th?), but why is that carved in stone? I'd > much prefer to get this right and push the release a week later. It's remarkable how the fact of a looming release date seems to crystallize all sorts of major issues that ought to have lengthy consideration and should never be handled in the run-up to it. But I still favour sticking to the release date -- Hugh has presumably cleared his schedule, as have others who will be helping him in case things go wrong, and it's difficult to rearrange all that. > * Elli Mylonas mentioned the possibility of leaving the tagdoc page > looking pretty much as it does, but if element <foo> has deleted > attribute @bar from class att.duck, then the "@bar" would be > crossed out in the parenthetical list of attributes that follow > "att.duck". (Just an idea.) This seems like a good idea. The crossed-out attribute could also be a link to an explanatory page which shows how you can add it back if you want to. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From philomousos at gmail.com Fri Jan 11 12:03:51 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:03:51 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <15FA76BA-E47E-4C10-9565-9AE909D80CC5@gmail.com> If we need to wait a week, that will be ok. If more, my schedule is a bit messier in February, but not so bad I couldn't find a day to work on the release. So that shouldn't be a factor. Hugh On Jan 11, 2013, at 11:50 , Gabriel Bodard <gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk> wrote: > On 2013-01-11 16:45, Syd Bauman wrote: >> * Why is this urgent? I realize we had planned for a release of the >> Guidelines soon (14th? 17th?), but why is that carved in stone? I'd >> much prefer to get this right and push the release a week later. > > I think if this is going to involve any kind of a major change to the > current way of doing things, we want not to push next week's release > back by a week (which might be a problem for Hugh who has cleared a day, > for example), but to put off these changes until after this release, so > that we can have several months to spot problems in the Jinks versions > before we release again. (In other words, even a week isn't enough. This > is supposed to be a maintenance release, not a major new re-architecture.) > >> * Elli Mylonas mentioned the possibility of leaving the tagdoc page >> looking pretty much as it does, but if element <foo> has deleted >> attribute @bar from class att.duck, then the "@bar" would be >> crossed out in the parenthetical list of attributes that follow >> "att.duck". (Just an idea.) > > I like that idea, yes. It *might* be a little bit confusing for people > who don't know or care about attribute classes, but it would be pretty > transparent. (Especially if a tool-tip were to add "Does not inherit the > attribute @bar from att.duck" or similar.) > > G > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > Researcher in Digital Epigraphy > > Digital Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > > T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > F: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 > E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 11 12:10:45 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 09:10:45 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <15FA76BA-E47E-4C10-9565-9AE909D80CC5@gmail.com> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> <15FA76BA-E47E-4C10-9565-9AE909D80CC5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F04795.4000805@uvic.ca> Do we think we can come to a consensus and implement necessary changes in a week, then, with a commit freeze on the 22nd and release on the 24th? We might easily argue for a week over this. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-11 09:03 AM, Hugh Cayless wrote: > If we need to wait a week, that will be ok. If more, my schedule is a bit messier in February, but not so bad I couldn't find a day to work on the release. So that shouldn't be a factor. > > Hugh > > On Jan 11, 2013, at 11:50 , Gabriel Bodard <gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk> wrote: > >> On 2013-01-11 16:45, Syd Bauman wrote: >>> * Why is this urgent? I realize we had planned for a release of the >>> Guidelines soon (14th? 17th?), but why is that carved in stone? I'd >>> much prefer to get this right and push the release a week later. >> >> I think if this is going to involve any kind of a major change to the >> current way of doing things, we want not to push next week's release >> back by a week (which might be a problem for Hugh who has cleared a day, >> for example), but to put off these changes until after this release, so >> that we can have several months to spot problems in the Jinks versions >> before we release again. (In other words, even a week isn't enough. This >> is supposed to be a maintenance release, not a major new re-architecture.) >> >>> * Elli Mylonas mentioned the possibility of leaving the tagdoc page >>> looking pretty much as it does, but if element <foo> has deleted >>> attribute @bar from class att.duck, then the "@bar" would be >>> crossed out in the parenthetical list of attributes that follow >>> "att.duck". (Just an idea.) >> >> I like that idea, yes. It *might* be a little bit confusing for people >> who don't know or care about attribute classes, but it would be pretty >> transparent. (Especially if a tool-tip were to add "Does not inherit the >> attribute @bar from att.duck" or similar.) >> >> G >> >> -- >> Dr Gabriel BODARD >> Researcher in Digital Epigraphy >> >> Digital Humanities >> King's College London >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL >> >> T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 >> F: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 >> E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk >> >> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ >> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ >> >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 12:19:38 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:19:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50417585-2766-47F4-AF55-59BAE4422C01@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F0238F.8020500@ultraslavonic.info> <50417585-2766-47F4-AF55-59BAE4422C01@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F049AA.1040602@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 11/01/13 14:42, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > the @subtype discussion seems different from the @url one. > > It seems simplest to to just change abbr and title to give them @subtype regardless, so i have just done that That sounds sensible to me. My recommendation, for the @url case, is a) remove @url from the att.media class b) define a new class att.resource (or something) which provides the @url attribute c) make the elements which need @url specify their membership in the new class Justification (apart from obviating the need for this bizarro now-you-see-it-now-you-dont technique) - the attributes provided by the att.media class (minus URL) are all clearly related (they all have to do with the display/performance of some piece of media) - any element which wants one of them will probably want the others too (@dur on <graphic> is a possible exception here) - at some point in the future someone is going to say "what's the diff between @target and @url?" when that happens, it will be convenient to have @url in one clearly defined place - at some point in the future someone is going to want to locate their media by some means which is neither inline nor a URL From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 11 12:22:33 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 09:22:33 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F049AA.1040602@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F0238F.8020500@ultraslavonic.info> <50417585-2766-47F4-AF55-59BAE4422C01@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F049AA.1040602@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F04A59.2010907@uvic.ca> +1. att.resource seems a big vague, though I can't think of a better option. On 13-01-11 09:19 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 11/01/13 14:42, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> the @subtype discussion seems different from the @url one. >> >> It seems simplest to to just change abbr and title to give them @subtype regardless, so i have just done that > > That sounds sensible to me. > > My recommendation, for the @url case, is > > a) remove @url from the att.media class > b) define a new class att.resource (or something) which provides the > @url attribute > c) make the elements which need @url specify their membership in the new > class > > > Justification (apart from obviating the need for this bizarro > now-you-see-it-now-you-dont technique) > > - the attributes provided by the att.media class (minus URL) are all > clearly related (they all have to do with the display/performance of > some piece of media) > - any element which wants one of them will probably want the others too > (@dur on <graphic> is a possible exception here) > - at some point in the future someone is going to say "what's the diff > between @target and @url?" when that happens, it will be convenient to > have @url in one clearly defined place > - at some point in the future someone is going to want to locate their > media by some means which is neither inline nor a URL > > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 12:23:03 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:23:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F02F7E.9040508@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F0238F.8020500@ultraslavonic.info> <50417585-2766-47F4-AF55-59BAE4422C01@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F02F7E.9040508@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F04A77.1060509@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 11/01/13 15:27, James Cummings wrote: > This discussion clarifies things in my mind: > > a) On principle I think anything that has @type should have > @subtype (if it can be classified it can be sub-classified). I think that's a sensible principle which I am happy to subscribe to. I think, btw, that we do need an additional schematron constraint to the effect "you can't specify @subtype without also specifying @type" > > b) ,.,. Claiming membership in a > class does *not* mean you claim everything that class > provides/enables. We disagree on this point then. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 12:27:14 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:27:14 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4DEF035B-068B-4178-BFD4-9BF576E909FA@it.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Jan 2013, at 16:37, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu> wrote: > First, +1 to Gabby, Sebastian has done a quick first-cit proof of > concept, fine, but if we do allow deletions we have to spend some > time to make it really clear and easy to an end user reading the > tagdoc in the Guidelines. indeed. better version being compiled as we speak, which you may find more acceptable > > But I want to re-iterate that what I'm worried about here really > (despite the lovely excerpt from Indiana Jones) is not a user getting > confused about what attrs an element has, but a customizer being > baffled by how to add the attribute back. they can't. its as if it never existed. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Jan 11 12:29:27 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:29:27 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <4DEF035B-068B-4178-BFD4-9BF576E909FA@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <4DEF035B-068B-4178-BFD4-9BF576E909FA@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F04BF7.3010106@ultraslavonic.info> On 1/11/2013 12:27 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> But I want to re-iterate that what I'm worried about here really >> (despite the lovely excerpt from Indiana Jones) is not a user getting >> confused about what attrs an element has, but a customizer being >> baffled by how to add the attribute back. > > they can't. its as if it never existed. Actually, I believe the way for them to "get it back" is to re-define the attribute for just that element. But this means they won't inherit any revisions to that attribute's definition as they would with attributes in other cases. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 12:31:05 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:31:05 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <71547B20-3E00-4FB0-A7FE-A41A9A6E4C03@it.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Jan 2013, at 16:45, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu> wrote: > Two related thoughts: > > * Why is this urgent? I realize we had planned for a release of the > Guidelines soon (14th? 17th?), but why is that carved in stone? I'd > much prefer to get this right and push the release a week later. it is not carved in stone, but if Hugh has booked the time, we don't really want to muck him about unless we really have to > > * Elli Mylonas mentioned the possibility of leaving the tagdoc page > looking pretty much as it does, but if element <foo> has deleted > attribute @bar from class att.duck, then the "@bar" would be > crossed out in the parenthetical list of attributes that follow > "att.duck". (Just an idea.) nice, but I am not sure offhand that I see how to do it :-} its all stylesheets/common2/tagdocs.xsl for those who want to play. now that binaryObject/@url is the only use of this delete feature, the looknfeel may be less urgent, anyway. its not going to be very noticeable -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 12:34:51 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:34:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <E04E0669-3ADD-43E9-8E9E-32BA4E9012D3@it.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Jan 2013, at 16:50, Gabriel Bodard <gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk> wrote: > for example), but to put off these changes until after this release, so > that we can have several months to spot problems in the Jinks versions > before we release again. (In other words, even a week isn't enough. This > is supposed to be a maintenance release, not a major new re-architecture.) > Hang on, the functionality and display has been there and in use since last summer, so there is nothing to put off. We could undo changes made last summer but thats an even more frightening prospect let me reiterate that all this is NOT a last minute big change I am proposing. it is a change we discussed 9 months ago, and which was made last summer, and went through the autumn release. Only now has anyone noticed the effect, however?.. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 12:38:25 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:38:25 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <E04E0669-3ADD-43E9-8E9E-32BA4E9012D3@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> <E04E0669-3ADD-43E9-8E9E-32BA4E9012D3@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F04E11.4070803@kcl.ac.uk> For the record, I was agreeing with Sebastian when I wrote the below. The "major new re-architecture" I rather clumsily mentioned would be reversing last summer's implementation, and/or making a new rule that we can't use it in the Guidelines. I think Sebastian's current solution is fine; the panic about allowing local deletion of attributes from classes and contortions to avoid it is what I think we don't want to try to force into this release.... On 2013-01-11 17:34, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 11 Jan 2013, at 16:50, Gabriel Bodard <gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk> > wrote: > >> for example), but to put off these changes until after this release, so >> that we can have several months to spot problems in the Jinks versions >> before we release again. (In other words, even a week isn't enough. This >> is supposed to be a maintenance release, not a major new re-architecture.) >> > Hang on, the functionality and display has been there and in use since last summer, > so there is nothing to put off. We could undo changes made > last summer but thats an even more frightening prospect > > let me reiterate that all this is NOT a last minute big change I am proposing. > it is a change we discussed 9 months ago, and which was made last summer, > and went through the autumn release. > > Only now has anyone noticed the effect, however?.. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 F: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 12:38:53 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:38:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <E04E0669-3ADD-43E9-8E9E-32BA4E9012D3@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> <E04E0669-3ADD-43E9-8E9E-32BA4E9012D3@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F04E2D.9070308@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 11/01/13 17:34, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > let me reiterate that all this is NOT a last minute big change I am > proposing. it is a change we discussed 9 months ago, and which was > made last summer, and went through the autumn release. Only now has > anyone noticed the effect, however?.. and let me reiterate that we did not discuss or approve the notion of using the ability to delete elements from a class; we discussed and approved the ability to modify their descriptions (within some undefined reasonable bounds) and to restrict their value lists From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 12:41:06 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:41:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F04E2D.9070308@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> <E04E0669-3ADD-43E9-8E9E-32BA4E9012D3@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F04E2D.9070308@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <447582a9-db4e-4b72-9104-495c3fc809bd@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:38, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> let me reiterate that all this is NOT a last minute big change I am >> proposing. it is a change we discussed 9 months ago, and which was >> made last summer, and went through the autumn release. Only now has >> anyone noticed the effect, however?.. > > and let me reiterate that we did not discuss or approve the notion of > using the ability to delete elements from a class; we discussed and > approved the ability to modify their descriptions (within some undefined > reasonable bounds) and to restrict their value lists that depends on your memory of the discussion :-} luckily the minutes are vague. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 12:45:42 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:45:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <8FA24EFB-EF16-40C0-A27D-40B04FFF46F5@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> <E04E0669-3ADD-43E9-8E9E-32BA4E9012D3@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F04E2D.9070308@retired.ox.ac.uk> <8FA24EFB-EF16-40C0-A27D-40B04FFF46F5@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F04FC6.60401@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 11/01/13 17:41, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:38, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: >>> let me reiterate that all this is NOT a last minute big change I am >>> proposing. it is a change we discussed 9 months ago, and which was >>> made last summer, and went through the autumn release. Only now has >>> anyone noticed the effect, however?.. >> and let me reiterate that we did not discuss or approve the notion of >> using the ability to delete elements from a class; we discussed and >> approved the ability to modify their descriptions (within some undefined >> reasonable bounds) and to restrict their value lists > > that depends on your memory of the discussion :-} luckily the minutes are vague. > > true. but since we don't actually need to use this mechanism, what's wrong with my earlier suggestion of providing @url via some other class? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 12:49:11 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:49:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <15FA76BA-E47E-4C10-9565-9AE909D80CC5@gmail.com> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> <15FA76BA-E47E-4C10-9565-9AE909D80CC5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <72BCF12A-A33F-48F5-B377-77C1C428BAE2@it.ox.ac.uk> a week extra still may not be enough time to get the display to everyone's satisfaction. i can't guarantee doing anything to the XSL, i am afraid (though as I say its a very specific bit of the code, and quite a few of you are more than capable of hacking it?.) you can see current state at http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-alt.html but you cannot see here that @target was grabbed from att. pointing -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 12:51:48 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:51:48 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F04FC6.60401@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> <E04E0669-3ADD-43E9-8E9E-32BA4E9012D3@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F04E2D.9070308@retired.ox.ac.uk> <8FA24EFB-EF16-40C0-A27D-40B04FFF46F5@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F04FC6.60401@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <061ea69c-c91c-478e-8e8f-0dc2cb4e5168@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Jan 2013, at 17:45, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > but since we don't actually need to use this mechanism, what's wrong with my earlier suggestion of providing @url via some other class? > nothing, that's fine. can you activate it? i am very happy with the solution that we put off having to consider either the display or the morals simply by avoiding the use of @mode='delete' in this release. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jan 11 17:04:38 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:04:38 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <50F04A77.1060509@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EEEA6F.7070001@uvic.ca> <3284537D-8D79-4314-8FDF-06885228CF58@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF0795.9020900@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F0238F.8020500@ultraslavonic.info> <50417585-2766-47F4-AF55-59BAE4422C01@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F02F7E.9040508@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F04A77.1060509@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20720.35958.401488.599458@emt.ad.brown.edu> > > a) On principle I think anything that has @type should have > > @subtype (if it can be classified it can be sub-classified). > > I think that's a sensible principle which I am happy to subscribe > to. Whoo-hoo! Agreed. > I think, btw, that we do need an additional schematron constraint > to the effect "you can't specify @subtype without also specifying > @type" Done and checked-in. My check-in also moved the sentence "Use of this attribute allows an external schema which has an element with the same local name as a TEI element to be mixed in." from the <desc> to the <remarks> of the definition of @prefix of <schemaSpec>. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jan 11 17:20:16 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:20:16 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <061ea69c-c91c-478e-8e8f-0dc2cb4e5168@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF1643.3090905@uvic.ca> <50EF366E.7070905@retired.ox.ac.uk> <D5D2DA63-8D45-4552-8873-06409CF481B4@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3C0D.6040901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> <E04E0669-3ADD-43E9-8E9E-32BA4E9012D3@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F04E2D.9070308@retired.ox.ac.uk> <8FA24EFB-EF16-40C0-A27D-40B04FFF46F5@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F04FC6.60401@retired.ox.ac.uk> <061ea69c-c91c-478e-8e8f-0dc2cb4e5168@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20720.36896.101270.146195@emt.ad.brown.edu> LB> My recommendation, for the @url case, is LB> a) remove @url from the att.media class b) define a new class LB> att.resource (or something) which provides the @url attribute c) LB> make the elements which need @url specify their membership in the LB> new class I like this idea and think not only is Lou's reasoning sound, but the reverse is even more likely: to wit, at some point in the future someone is going to want to point to the target of their <note> or <ref> by some means which is not a URL. I think att.resource is reasonable, given that the name of the attribute stands for Universal Resource Locator, and it is defined to be a Universal Resource Identifier. (And using att.identifier would drive us nuts! att.locator might not be so bad.) SB> ... what I'm worried about ... is ... a customizer being baffled SB> by how to add the attribute back. SR> they can't. its as if it never existed. KH> Actually, I believe the way for them to "get it back" is to KH> re-define the attribute for just that element. But this means KH> they won't inherit any revisions to that attribute's definition KH> as they would with attributes in other cases. But as Lou and I have separately pointed out, this is confusing. (Why do I have to define @bar of <foo> in my own namespace when <foo> is a member of att.duck which (normally) provides @bar?) So a) I like the idea that if <attDef mode="delete"> is used in the Guidelines it should be used only in cases where we are quite confident that users will not want that attribute. b) I like Lou's suggestion of att.resource meaning we don't have to decide this issue forevermore right now, nor do we have to figure out what the output of a tagdoc that has <attDef mode="delete"> looks like for at least the next few months. So the good stuff happens right away and the hard stuff is deferred. LB> but since we don't actually need to use this mechanism, what's LB> wrong with my earlier suggestion of providing @url via some other LB> class? SR> nothing, that's fine. can you activate it? If no one else wants to implement this, I'd be happy to. (Although maybe I should read TCW 20 first?) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 17:25:51 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 22:25:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another High Noon proposal In-Reply-To: <20720.36896.101270.146195@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <455304B0-EC01-4903-A4FA-24D43AF6CF9B@it.ox.ac.uk> <7E4D7736-7F11-4496-87D4-4A8CD01D17B2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF3EE9.4080507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <BE14F37E-1F16-4C7A-8383-D530CEBC8C19@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EF4329.3060902@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20719.22378.773363.15450@emt.ad.brown.edu> <40ED370A-D8DE-486A-9D75-B1978AC34996@it.ox.ac.uk> <50EFFDB7.5050300@retired.ox.ac.uk> <6b31a10e-1c1e-403b-92ed-15a92513c21a@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.5811.9920.237851@emt.ad.brown.edu> <893A6577-3A24-4849-8DED-DA62C19E434B@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F01AD6.300@kcl.ac.uk> <50F03DD0.3020205@uvic.ca> <20720.16340.701165.259666@emt.ad.brown.edu> <20720.16791.309285.709782@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F042C4.1000209@kcl.ac.uk> <E04E0669-3ADD-43E9-8E9E-32BA4E9012D3@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F04E2D.9070308@retired.ox.ac.uk> <8FA24EFB-EF16-40C0-A27D-40B04FFF46F5@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F04FC6.60401@retired.ox.ac.uk> <061ea69c-c91c-478e-8e8f-0dc2cb4e5168@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20720.36896.101270.146195@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <50F0916F.2060002@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 11/01/13 22:20, Syd Bauman wrote: > > LB> but since we don't actually need to use this mechanism, what's > LB> wrong with my earlier suggestion of providing @url via some other > LB> class? > SR> nothing, that's fine. can you activate it? > > If no one else wants to implement this, I'd be happy to. (Although > maybe I should read TCW 20 first?) Certainly we should all read TCW20 often, but I'm afraid I have already implemented the att.resourced proposal, earlier this evening on receiving a green light from both Martin and Sebastian. I see Syd has consoled himself by implementing the suggested change to prevent @subtype being used without @type which is also good! From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 12 12:03:09 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:03:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] display of modified arts in P5 Message-ID: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> have a gander at http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-abbr.html and see if you can make small improvements to the layout, to make it clear what @type is up to. no, I dont think its plausible at this time to program in a "diff"-like display showing in what ways it is changed from the original. well, one can try, but I can't :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Sat Jan 12 12:20:51 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 09:20:51 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] display of modified arts in P5 In-Reply-To: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F19B73.6050000@uvic.ca> HI there, I don't think the little red [...] is very comprehensible. How about this: @type? @type followed by a down arrow, which is in red, and which has a title attribute saying "This attribute is modified below". Would that work? On 13-01-12 09:03 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > have a gander at http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-abbr.html > and see if you can make small improvements to the layout, to make it clear what @type is up to. > > no, I dont think its plausible at this time to program in a "diff"-like display showing in what ways it is changed > from the original. well, one can try, but I can't :-} > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 12 12:44:42 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 17:44:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] display of modified arts in P5 In-Reply-To: <50F19B73.6050000@uvic.ca> References: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F19B73.6050000@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <728505BC-B409-451B-8180-D60859C7F7F5@it.ox.ac.uk> On 12 Jan 2013, at 17:20, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > > I don't think the little red [...] is very comprehensible. How about this: > > @type? > > @type followed by a down arrow, which is in red, and which has a title > attribute saying "This attribute is modified below". > > Would that work? possibly. but at present the XSL is not aware of the existence of the missing @type in att.typed. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sat Jan 12 12:59:43 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 12:59:43 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] display of modified arts in P5 In-Reply-To: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F1A48F.1000702@ultraslavonic.info> What if the red text was instead: [except @type] ? On 1/12/13 12:03 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > have a gander at http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-abbr.html > and see if you can make small improvements to the layout, to make it clear what @type is up to. > > no, I dont think its plausible at this time to program in a "diff"-like display showing in what ways it is changed > from the original. well, one can try, but I can't :-} > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Jan 12 16:58:49 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 16:58:49 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] <timeline> without timing information? In-Reply-To: <3F316662-D2D9-4EA1-86DA-E0C9BCE1AB4D@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E333E4.3080807@uvic.ca> <3F316662-D2D9-4EA1-86DA-E0C9BCE1AB4D@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20721.56473.581038.994001@emt.ad.brown.edu> I agree with Martin and Sebastian. Who's going to fix this? From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 12 17:09:44 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2013 22:09:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] <timeline> without timing information? In-Reply-To: <50E333E4.3080807@uvic.ca> References: <50E333E4.3080807@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50F1DF28.7000504@retired.ox.ac.uk> While I've no objection to adding some more detail to the example as Martin suggests, I must protest at the suggestion that it is currently incoherent. The point which is not perhaps being made clearly enough here is that simply aligning bits of a dialog with distinct <when> elements provides some kind of temporal ordering for them, since <when>s are always ordered within a <timeline>, even in the absence of additional timing information. Whereas the synchronization attributes just allow you to say that events are um synchronous, without saying anything about the order in which they occur On 01/01/13 19:07, Martin Holmes wrote: > Take a look at this block from Chapter 8: > > -------------------- > Where the whole of one or another utterance is to be synchronized, the > start and end attributes may be used: > > <u who="#tom">I used to smoke <anchor xml:id="TS-p10"/> a lot more than this > <anchor xml:id="TS-p20"/>but I never inhaled the smoke</u> > <u start="#TS-p10" end="#TS-p20" who="#bob">You used to smoke</u> > > [...]in > > If synchronization with specific timing information is required, a > timeline must be included: > > <timeline origin="#TS-t01"> > <when xml:id="TS-t01"/> > <when xml:id="TS-t02"/> > </timeline> > <u who="#tom">I used to smoke > <anchor synch="#TS-t01"/>a lot more than this > <anchor synch="#TS-t02"/>but I never inhaled the smoke</u> > <u who="#bob"> > <anchor synch="#TS-t01"/>You used to smoke<anchor synch="#TS-t02"/> > </u> > ----------------- > > The expanded version with <timeline> is introduced explicitly to show > "specific timing information", but it doesn't seem to do so; there's no > @absolute or @interval, and as far as I can see, the addition of > <timeline> provides no benefit to the encoding. I think this is a simple > omission, which could be remedied by adding appropriate timing info, > like this: > > > <timeline origin="#TS-t01" unit="s"> > <when xml:id="TS-t01" absolute="15:33:01Z"/> > <when xml:id="TS-t02" interval="2.5" since="#TS-t01"/> > </timeline> > <u who="#tom">I used to smoke > <anchor synch="#TS-t01"/>a lot more than this > <anchor synch="#TS-t02"/>but I never inhaled the smoke</u> > <u who="#bob"> > <anchor synch="#TS-t01"/>You used to smoke<anchor synch="#TS-t02"/> > </u> > > Have I misunderstood, or should I go ahead and make this change? > > Cheers, > Martin From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 09:09:52 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 14:09:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] display of modified arts in P5 In-Reply-To: <728505BC-B409-451B-8180-D60859C7F7F5@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F19B73.6050000@uvic.ca> <728505BC-B409-451B-8180-D60859C7F7F5@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4EE58CF4-6F27-4F5B-9298-714B56E57E20@it.ox.ac.uk> see http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-abbr.html for the latest display which may be helpful -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Jan 13 12:48:42 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 12:48:42 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? Message-ID: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> Those of you who have been around a while will recall that over the past few years the need to deprecate certain practices in P5 has emerged, and we've been trying to figure out various mechanisms to go about this. We began using the terms "soft deprecation" and "hard deprecation" though without clearly defining either. In August I tried to summarize the state of the art: http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php?title=Deprecation&oldid=11165 which spawned a discussion on tei-council, which I captured on a "talk" page on the wiki: http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Talk:Deprecation to which I've added my own responses. As you can see from these pages, Martin and I want to use @status='deprecated' in the ODD (which leads to a bold, red "deprecated" note appearing in the spec online) in all cases, whereas James (and possibly Laurent -- it's unclear) want to use @status='deprecated' only for cases of "hard deprecation" ("when we really want to deprecate something"). In September Lou and I were charged with formulating a TCW document on deprecation for the next face-to-face meeting, but we still haven't formulated that. In the meantime, though, I am faced with needing to know whether to use @status='deprecated' when performing a "soft, soft deprecation" on biblScope at type: http://purl.org/TEI/FR/3570037 For now I did it WITH @status='deprecated' -- that is, the way Martin and I want to do it -- but since Lou and I still haven't developed a practice here, maybe I should remove this before our upcoming release. Until that TCW is ready, could I get an extra opinion or two on whether to use @status='deprecated' here? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 13:40:45 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:40:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> I'm pretty much with you and Martin - there's deprecation, and thats it. no hard and soft complications and worries. I'm all for formalizing things like this. ie if we decide something is deprecated, set a time limit on it (12 months? 2 years?) after which it moves to a module called "backwardcompatibility" which is not included by default. We could implement that for the release next autumn. the new ability to say @mode on source provides a convenient mechanism,possibly (I havent thought through the details). -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Jan 13 13:51:59 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 10:51:59 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> I think a "backwardCompatibility" or Birnbaum module is a great idea. We could provide a customization alongside tei_all which incorporates it, so people could decide whether their projects are forward-looking or backward-looking. I suspect there will be gotchas, though. For instance I just renamed att.sourced to att.edition; a Birnbaum module that attempted to restore a deleted attribute to att.sourced would fail because it's not there any more. We'd have to maintain the Birnbaum module carefully alongside the main codebase, updating it to take account of changes like this. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-13 10:40 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'm pretty much with you and Martin - there's deprecation, and thats it. no hard and soft complications > and worries. > > I'm all for formalizing things like this. ie if we decide something is deprecated, set a time limit on it > (12 months? 2 years?) after which it moves to a module called "backwardcompatibility" which > is not included by default. We could implement that for the release next autumn. the new > ability to say @mode on source provides a convenient mechanism,possibly (I havent thought > through the details). > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 14:11:17 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:11:17 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F306D5.5060202@retired.ox.ac.uk> I tend to agree that this discussion so far seems to be needlessly complicating the issue. So I will complicate it some more. A quick grep through the guidelines shows us "deprecating" several different kinds of thing. Most of the time it's a specific attribute or (less often) an element, which we retain for purposes of backwards compatibility but for which we now recognise a better solution. Flagging those up with @status=deprecated and in due course removing them is not difficult. But we also tend to talk about "deprecated" usages -- for example, that a dictionary entry with only one sense need not tag that sense explicitly; or that <ref> should not be used within <biblScope>; or that <list> should not used within <keywords>. Such things could (and surely should) be caught by additional schematron constraints: but there are cases for which I don't think any automated method will be feasible: for example the recommendation against using @target (rather than @facs) on <locus> to point to an image, or against using <c> rather than <pc> to mark punctuation marks. Should we ignore such cases entirely in the present discussion? FWIW, I think a "backwards compatibility" module would be over-engineering. If people want to recover something we've removed, there are other and simpler ways of doing so. Most oOn 13/01/13 18:40, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'm pretty much with you and Martin - there's deprecation, and thats it. no hard and soft complications > and worries. > > I'm all for formalizing things like this. ie if we decide something is deprecated, set a time limit on it > (12 months? 2 years?) after which it moves to a module called "backwardcompatibility" which > is not included by default. We could implement that for the release next autumn. the new > ability to say @mode on source provides a convenient mechanism,possibly (I havent thought > through the details). > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 14:26:37 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 19:26:37 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> On 13 Jan 2013, at 18:51, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > I suspect there will be gotchas, though. For instance I just renamed > att.sourced to att.edition; a Birnbaum module that attempted to restore > a deleted attribute to att.sourced would fail because it's not there any > more. We'd have to maintain the Birnbaum module carefully alongside the > main codebase, updating it to take account of changes like this. Yes, it would take some careful thought on how to do it. But it seems worth a try, a maintained schema which confirmed Birnbaumites could access. Lou will shudder when I now also suggest the FarFutureCalling [1] module, which includes things we are considering adding to the TEI; an incubation module, if you like. Pythoneers will recall the "from future import xxx" directive. [1] http://olafstapledonarchive.webs.com/farfuturecalling.html -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 15:24:41 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:24:41 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 13/01/13 19:26, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 13 Jan 2013, at 18:51, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote: > >> I suspect there will be gotchas, though. For instance I just renamed >> att.sourced to att.edition; a Birnbaum module that attempted to restore >> a deleted attribute to att.sourced would fail because it's not there any >> more. We'd have to maintain the Birnbaum module carefully alongside the >> main codebase, updating it to take account of changes like this. > > Yes, it would take some careful thought on how to do it. But it seems worth a > try, a maintained schema which confirmed Birnbaumites could access. I think that's just silly. How would this be different from (or more useful than) a previous version of the schema in which the various deprecations had not yet taken effect? I say when things are removed, they are removed. End of. > > Lou will shudder when I now also suggest the FarFutureCalling [1] module, > which includes things we are considering adding to the TEI; an incubation > module, if you like. Or a Fork? > [1] http://olafstapledonarchive.webs.com/farfuturecalling.html Thanks for that! Another website to TEI-ify... From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 15:56:04 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:56:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <55df888a-1037-4605-acc0-089f10698d2e@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> > > I think that's just silly. How would this be different from (or more > useful than) a previous version of the schema in which the various > deprecations had not yet taken effect? Because the schema would also include new things. the scenario Is that I need t keep using @targets cos my tool supports that, and I can't afford to change. I have my loads of docs using that markup. But I also want to use the new @magic markup. Now you will say "tough titty. Change your tool and your old docs". I argue that's too harsh > >> [1] http://olafstapledonarchive.webs.com/farfuturecalling.html > > Thanks for that! Another website to TEI-ify... > Remember he only died in 1950, so that's all still in copyright. Might affect how you use it. Roll n 2020. Sebastian From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 15:59:11 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:59:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 13/01/13 20:56, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > Because the schema would also include new things. the scenario > Is that I need t keep using @targets cos my tool supports that, and I can't afford to change. I have my loads of docs using that markup. But I also want to use the new @magic markup. > > Now you will say "tough titty. Change your tool and your old docs". I argue that's too harsh But chances are my old tool won't be able to do anything with the new @magic so why would I bother? Or if I want to make it do so, then I might as well teach it not to use old @targets. I really think this is a case of a solution looking for a problem... From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 16:28:14 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:28:14 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <f6417f04-07d6-4d73-9434-10429d950a32@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> on reflection, maybe I mean that when we decide to deprecate something, we move it immediately to the new Deprecated module. One day, we delete it even from there, but for a few years you can still use it if you want, with some extra barrier (making a new schema with that module) -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 16:44:31 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:44:31 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 13/01/13 21:28, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > on reflection, maybe I mean that when we decide to deprecate something, > we move it immediately to the new Deprecated module. One day, we delete > it even from there, but for a few years you can still use it if you want, with > some extra barrier (making a new schema with that module) > > This is a cunning way of circumventing/subverting the Birnbaum Doctrine. Whereas we used to say "no changes made in the TEI scheme will invalidate your document", we're now saying "no changes made in the TEI scheme will invalidate your document, so long as you include the "deprecated" module in your schema". Will it work though? Suppose we decide that we want to rename attribute @target to @url and deprecate @target passim (stranger things have happened). We make the change in P5. We provide alternative definitions for all the elements which used to use @target in which they still do and bung them in the deprecated module. So far so good. But now suppose we make some other change to one or more of those elements, which doesn't involve any deprecation but which is a straightforward bug fix. Do we apply this fix to the deprecated version as well? What if (as you suggested earlier) one or more of these elements gets a new attribute ? And I still don't know what we do about "stylistic deprecation" -- where we say this element is permitted in the content model, but you should really only use it in this particular way (e.g. @target on <locus> ) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 16:57:57 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:57:57 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1471c10f-c947-4ec6-95be-73983e3a4645@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 13 Jan 2013, at 21:44, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > This is a cunning way of circumventing/subverting the Birnbaum Doctrine. Whereas we used to say "no changes made in the TEI scheme will invalidate your document", we're now saying "no changes made in the TEI scheme will invalidate your document, so long as you include the "deprecated" module in your schema". yes, thats another way of looking at it. if we follow Birnbaum to the letter, we'll never implement deprecation > Will it work though? Suppose we decide that we want to rename attribute @target to @url and deprecate @target passim (stranger things have happened). We make the change in P5. We provide alternative definitions for all the elements which used to use @target in which they still do and bung them in the deprecated module. So far so good. But now suppose we make some other change to one or more of those elements, which doesn't involve any deprecation but which is a straightforward bug fix. Do we apply this fix to the deprecated version as well? What if (as you suggested earlier) one or more of these elements gets a new attribute ? > We'd find some mechanism in the deprecated module to work around these issues. Definitely lots of details to work out. My assumption is that Deprecated would be like a customization we pre-applied before any other customization. So things like element X getting a new attribute is fine, as the module would just be modifying it to add (back) a deleted attribute > And I still don't know what we do about "stylistic deprecation" -- where we say this element is permitted in the content model, but you should really only use it in this particular way (e.g. @target on <locus> ) i dont have a simple answer to that, I admit. Does Schematron formally support Warnings as opposed to Errors? -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Jan 13 18:52:12 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 15:52:12 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F348AC.5030006@uvic.ca> On 13-01-13 12:24 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 13/01/13 19:26, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> On 13 Jan 2013, at 18:51, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> >> wrote: >> >>> I suspect there will be gotchas, though. For instance I just renamed >>> att.sourced to att.edition; a Birnbaum module that attempted to restore >>> a deleted attribute to att.sourced would fail because it's not there any >>> more. We'd have to maintain the Birnbaum module carefully alongside the >>> main codebase, updating it to take account of changes like this. >> >> Yes, it would take some careful thought on how to do it. But it seems worth a >> try, a maintained schema which confirmed Birnbaumites could access. > > I think that's just silly. How would this be different from (or more > useful than) a previous version of the schema in which the various > deprecations had not yet taken effect? It enables you to take advantage of new additions and changes to the schema, without having to abandon your beloved @key (or whatever it is). > I say when things are removed, they are removed. End of. I read that wrong first time. It sounded like you were abrogating to yourself all authority to remove things, and brooking no argument from the rest of us. :-) Cheers, Martin > >> >> Lou will shudder when I now also suggest the FarFutureCalling [1] module, >> which includes things we are considering adding to the TEI; an incubation >> module, if you like. > > Or a Fork? > > > [1] http://olafstapledonarchive.webs.com/farfuturecalling.html > > Thanks for that! Another website to TEI-ify... > > > > From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Jan 13 18:57:13 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 15:57:13 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <1471c10f-c947-4ec6-95be-73983e3a4645@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <1471c10f-c947-4ec6-95be-73983e3a4645@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F349D9.4060509@uvic.ca> > Does Schematron formally support Warnings as opposed to Errors? I use them in my Schematron and they certainly work in Oxygen. You just get a yellow icon instead of a red one in your validation results at the bottom of the screen. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-13 01:57 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 13 Jan 2013, at 21:44, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> >> This is a cunning way of circumventing/subverting the Birnbaum Doctrine. Whereas we used to say "no changes made in the TEI scheme will invalidate your document", we're now saying "no changes made in the TEI scheme will invalidate your document, so long as you include the "deprecated" module in your schema". > > yes, thats another way of looking at it. if we follow Birnbaum to the letter, we'll never implement deprecation > >> Will it work though? Suppose we decide that we want to rename attribute @target to @url and deprecate @target passim (stranger things have happened). We make the change in P5. We provide alternative definitions for all the elements which used to use @target in which they still do and bung them in the deprecated module. So far so good. But now suppose we make some other change to one or more of those elements, which doesn't involve any deprecation but which is a straightforward bug fix. Do we apply this fix to the deprecated version as well? What if (as you suggested earlier) one or more of these elements gets a new attribute ? >> > We'd find some mechanism in the deprecated module to work around these issues. Definitely lots of details to work out. My assumption is that > Deprecated would be like a customization we pre-applied before any other customization. So things like element X getting a new attribute is fine, > as the module would just be modifying it to add (back) a deleted attribute > >> And I still don't know what we do about "stylistic deprecation" -- where we say this element is permitted in the content model, but you should really only use it in this particular way (e.g. @target on <locus> ) > > i dont have a simple answer to that, I admit. > > Does Schematron formally support Warnings as opposed to Errors? > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 14 04:43:35 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 09:43:35 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <50F349D9.4060509@uvic.ca> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <1471c10f-c947-4ec6-95be-73983e3a4645@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50F349D9.4060509@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <7719D39B-EF07-42BC-945E-BAE369D3538C@it.ox.ac.uk> On 13 Jan 2013, at 23:57, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: >> Does Schematron formally support Warnings as opposed to Errors? > > I use them in my Schematron and they certainly work in Oxygen. You just > get a yellow icon instead of a red one in your validation results at the > bottom of the screen. > sounds like we should use this immediately to indicate deprecation? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 14 06:13:44 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:13:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] display of modified arts in P5 In-Reply-To: <4EE58CF4-6F27-4F5B-9298-714B56E57E20@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F19B73.6050000@uvic.ca> <728505BC-B409-451B-8180-D60859C7F7F5@it.ox.ac.uk> <4EE58CF4-6F27-4F5B-9298-714B56E57E20@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F3E868.7060008@it.ox.ac.uk> On 13/01/13 14:09, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > see http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-abbr.html > for the latest display which may be helpful Let me see if I'm reading this right: 1) This says that <abbr> gets @subtype from att.typed but not @type? 2) It then creates a new @type element which is modified in some way but I've no idea how? 3) It says 'Derived from att.typed' to indicate this is a pure subset change? But since locally re-defined it won't inherit any future changes to att.typed's @type? If I was an average user looking at this I would really be wondering why @type is redefined locally in preference to using the att.typed version. Should it be policy that any time we do something like this it requires a note/remark here about why this has been done? -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 14 06:26:33 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:26:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] display of modified arts in P5 In-Reply-To: <50F3E868.7060008@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F19B73.6050000@uvic.ca> <728505BC-B409-451B-8180-D60859C7F7F5@it.ox.ac.uk> <4EE58CF4-6F27-4F5B-9298-714B56E57E20@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3E868.7060008@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <87576f38-62fe-4c60-ab6b-5a359d9eb04d@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 14 Jan 2013, at 11:13, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > On 13/01/13 14:09, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> see http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-abbr.html >> for the latest display which may be helpful > > Let me see if I'm reading this right: > 1) This says that <abbr> gets @subtype from att.typed but not @type? krekt > 2) It then creates a new @type element which is modified in some > way but I've no idea how? yes. well, its not a new @type, its a modification of it > 3) It says 'Derived from att.typed' to indicate this is a pure > subset change? no, there is not a _promise_ that its a subset change only. its possible that we might use this to open up a data type? i reiterate that displaying what has changed in relation to the source is not attempted, any more than it ever has been in documentation for a customisation before. it would mean a serious redesign. ultimately, one is reduced to reading the source, luke > But since locally re-defined it won't inherit any > future changes to att.typed's @type? > no, thats not true. it depends what it changed. if just the description is what changed, anything else will be inherited after change > If I was an average user looking at this I would really be > wondering why @type is redefined locally in preference to using > the att.typed version. > > Should it be policy that any time we do something like this it > requires a note/remark here about why this has been done? yes, quite possibly. do you want to experiment and see how it would look? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 14 06:27:17 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:27:17 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] <timeline> without timing information? In-Reply-To: <50F1DF28.7000504@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50E333E4.3080807@uvic.ca> <50F1DF28.7000504@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F3EB95.2080906@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi all, I agree with Lou here, this is showing how the utterances are ordered and I've never found it confusing. The problem comes from the use of the phrase 'specific timing information' which does, as Martin points out, seem to imply that there should be specific time-stamps given. I'd suggest adding the timing information as suggested by Martin, but then copying the current example after it and saying something like "If only the ordering or sequencing of utterances is needed, then specific timing information does not need to be provided." And having the current example after that. -James On 12/01/13 22:09, Lou Burnard wrote: > While I've no objection to adding some more detail to the example as > Martin suggests, I must protest at the suggestion that it is currently > incoherent. The point which is not perhaps being made clearly enough > here is that simply aligning bits of a dialog with distinct <when> > elements provides some kind of temporal ordering for them, since <when>s > are always ordered within a <timeline>, even in the absence of > additional timing information. Whereas the synchronization attributes > just allow you to say that events are um synchronous, without saying > anything about the order in which they occur > > > On 01/01/13 19:07, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Take a look at this block from Chapter 8: >> >> -------------------- >> Where the whole of one or another utterance is to be synchronized, the >> start and end attributes may be used: >> >> <u who="#tom">I used to smoke <anchor xml:id="TS-p10"/> a lot more than this >> <anchor xml:id="TS-p20"/>but I never inhaled the smoke</u> >> <u start="#TS-p10" end="#TS-p20" who="#bob">You used to smoke</u> >> >> [...]in >> >> If synchronization with specific timing information is required, a >> timeline must be included: >> >> <timeline origin="#TS-t01"> >> <when xml:id="TS-t01"/> >> <when xml:id="TS-t02"/> >> </timeline> >> <u who="#tom">I used to smoke >> <anchor synch="#TS-t01"/>a lot more than this >> <anchor synch="#TS-t02"/>but I never inhaled the smoke</u> >> <u who="#bob"> >> <anchor synch="#TS-t01"/>You used to smoke<anchor synch="#TS-t02"/> >> </u> >> ----------------- >> >> The expanded version with <timeline> is introduced explicitly to show >> "specific timing information", but it doesn't seem to do so; there's no >> @absolute or @interval, and as far as I can see, the addition of >> <timeline> provides no benefit to the encoding. I think this is a simple >> omission, which could be remedied by adding appropriate timing info, >> like this: >> >> >> <timeline origin="#TS-t01" unit="s"> >> <when xml:id="TS-t01" absolute="15:33:01Z"/> >> <when xml:id="TS-t02" interval="2.5" since="#TS-t01"/> >> </timeline> >> <u who="#tom">I used to smoke >> <anchor synch="#TS-t01"/>a lot more than this >> <anchor synch="#TS-t02"/>but I never inhaled the smoke</u> >> <u who="#bob"> >> <anchor synch="#TS-t01"/>You used to smoke<anchor synch="#TS-t02"/> >> </u> >> >> Have I misunderstood, or should I go ahead and make this change? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Mon Jan 14 06:27:40 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:27:40 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <7719D39B-EF07-42BC-945E-BAE369D3538C@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <1471c10f-c947-4ec6-95be-73983e3a4645@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50F349D9.4060509@uvic.ca> <7719D39B-EF07-42BC-945E-BAE369D3538C@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F3EBAC.7000207@kcl.ac.uk> I never use warnings in my Schematron, primarily because they're annoying. If something is disrecommended rather than incorrect, then presumably that means it's sometimes right, and I don't want to get a validation error (even if it is a less "wrong" color) every time it occurs. I don't know any validator that doesn't say "errors found" when schematron issues warnings. That said, I think the value of deprecation is precisely that people can carry on using the deprecated attribute (vel sim) without having to think about it especially, just receiving a gentle warning (in the Guidelines, I guess) rather than that people have to speifically re-introduce a deprecation module to their schema to keep the attribute around. In general people who want to be this proactive with their schemas are the ones who will take account of deprecation the soonest. tl;dr I vote for the red "Deprecated" flag in the element/class Spec page. Gabby On 2013-01-14 09:43, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 13 Jan 2013, at 23:57, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote: > >>> Does Schematron formally support Warnings as opposed to Errors? >> >> I use them in my Schematron and they certainly work in Oxygen. You just >> get a yellow icon instead of a red one in your validation results at the >> bottom of the screen. >> > sounds like we should use this immediately to indicate deprecation? > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 F: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 14 06:43:58 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:43:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <50F3EBAC.7000207@kcl.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <1471c10f-c947-4ec6-95be-73983e3a4645@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50F349D9.4060509@uvic.ca> <7719D39B-EF07-42BC-945E-BAE369D3538C@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3EBAC.7000207@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F3EF7E.5050906@it.ox.ac.uk> I think I'm with Lou and partly with Gabby here. When something is deprecated, it is deprecated. It should get a little red warning on the reference page. And it would be even better if there was a date attached so it could say 'To be removed at the release following 2014-01-13' or something. IF our user community read the reference pages regularly then I think that is where it should end. However, I think it much more likely that they use the schemas in oxygen, start putting in an element and if it is allowed then it is allowed. Thus schematron warning rules and a change to the description might be beneficial. I see the following options on deprecation: A) Marked as deprecated on the reference page preferably with a note with date or similar at which it will be removed. B) Marked as deprecated on the reference page preferably with a note with date or similar at which it will be removed, and a schematron warning rule set up. C) Marked as deprecated on the reference page preferably with a note with date or similar at which it will be removed, a schematron warning rule set up, and the <desc> changed to be prefixed with 'DEPRECATED: '. Changing the <desc> will result in people noticing this in tooltips in software like oXygen, make it that much more evident on the reference page, and where specDesc has been used to pull in the description elsewhere. Of these I'd prefer that we are the clearest we can possibly be, and so would vote for C. -James On 14/01/13 11:27, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > I never use warnings in my Schematron, primarily because they're > annoying. If something is disrecommended rather than incorrect, then > presumably that means it's sometimes right, and I don't want to get a > validation error (even if it is a less "wrong" color) every time it > occurs. I don't know any validator that doesn't say "errors found" when > schematron issues warnings. > > That said, I think the value of deprecation is precisely that people can > carry on using the deprecated attribute (vel sim) without having to > think about it especially, just receiving a gentle warning (in the > Guidelines, I guess) rather than that people have to speifically > re-introduce a deprecation module to their schema to keep the attribute > around. In general people who want to be this proactive with their > schemas are the ones who will take account of deprecation the soonest. > > tl;dr I vote for the red "Deprecated" flag in the element/class Spec page. > > Gabby > > On 2013-01-14 09:43, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 13 Jan 2013, at 23:57, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> >> wrote: >> >>>> Does Schematron formally support Warnings as opposed to Errors? >>> >>> I use them in my Schematron and they certainly work in Oxygen. You just >>> get a yellow icon instead of a red one in your validation results at the >>> bottom of the screen. >>> >> sounds like we should use this immediately to indicate deprecation? >> >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Mon Jan 14 06:48:21 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:48:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <50F3EF7E.5050906@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <1471c10f-c947-4ec6-95be-73983e3a4645@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50F349D9.4060509@uvic.ca> <7719D39B-EF07-42BC-945E-BAE369D3538C@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3EBAC.7000207@kcl.ac.uk> <50F3EF7E.5050906@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F3F085.3060802@kcl.ac.uk> That's a good point. I do something very similar to C with the EpiDoc ODD/schema. (Attribute values that we no longer recommend and plan to take out of the valList in a future release have the word "DEPRECATED" and a brief explanation of what you should use instead at the start of their desc.) Remember that, at least with current technologies, most people don't see the schematron validation errors/warnings if they only have a xml-model[@schematypens='rng'] in their document. G On 2013-01-14 11:43, James Cummings wrote: > > I think I'm with Lou and partly with Gabby here. > > When something is deprecated, it is deprecated. It should get a > little red warning on the reference page. And it would be even > better if there was a date attached so it could say 'To be > removed at the release following 2014-01-13' or something. IF > our user community read the reference pages regularly then I > think that is where it should end. However, I think it much more > likely that they use the schemas in oxygen, start putting in an > element and if it is allowed then it is allowed. Thus schematron > warning rules and a change to the description might be beneficial. > > I see the following options on deprecation: > > A) Marked as deprecated on the reference page preferably with a > note with date or similar at which it will be removed. > > B) Marked as deprecated on the reference page preferably with a > note with date or similar at which it will be removed, and a > schematron warning rule set up. > > C) Marked as deprecated on the reference page preferably with a > note with date or similar at which it will be removed, a > schematron warning rule set up, and the <desc> changed to be > prefixed with 'DEPRECATED: '. > > Changing the <desc> will result in people noticing this in > tooltips in software like oXygen, make it that much more evident > on the reference page, and where specDesc has been used to pull > in the description elsewhere. > > Of these I'd prefer that we are the clearest we can possibly be, > and so would vote for C. > > -James > > On 14/01/13 11:27, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> I never use warnings in my Schematron, primarily because they're >> annoying. If something is disrecommended rather than incorrect, then >> presumably that means it's sometimes right, and I don't want to get a >> validation error (even if it is a less "wrong" color) every time it >> occurs. I don't know any validator that doesn't say "errors found" when >> schematron issues warnings. >> >> That said, I think the value of deprecation is precisely that people can >> carry on using the deprecated attribute (vel sim) without having to >> think about it especially, just receiving a gentle warning (in the >> Guidelines, I guess) rather than that people have to speifically >> re-introduce a deprecation module to their schema to keep the attribute >> around. In general people who want to be this proactive with their >> schemas are the ones who will take account of deprecation the soonest. >> >> tl;dr I vote for the red "Deprecated" flag in the element/class Spec page. >> >> Gabby >> >> On 2013-01-14 09:43, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> >>> On 13 Jan 2013, at 23:57, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> Does Schematron formally support Warnings as opposed to Errors? >>>> >>>> I use them in my Schematron and they certainly work in Oxygen. You just >>>> get a yellow icon instead of a red one in your validation results at the >>>> bottom of the screen. >>>> >>> sounds like we should use this immediately to indicate deprecation? >>> >>> -- >>> Sebastian Rahtz >>> Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services >>> University of Oxford IT Services >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>> >> > > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 F: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 14 06:49:13 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:49:13 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] display of modified arts in P5 In-Reply-To: <99BEB465-4DC5-47EC-BB96-79D77F0704DF@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F19B73.6050000@uvic.ca> <728505BC-B409-451B-8180-D60859C7F7F5@it.ox.ac.uk> <4EE58CF4-6F27-4F5B-9298-714B56E57E20@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3E868.7060008@it.ox.ac.uk> <99BEB465-4DC5-47EC-BB96-79D77F0704DF@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F3F0B9.6010709@it.ox.ac.uk> On 14/01/13 11:26, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> 2) It then creates a new @type element which is modified in some >> way but I've no idea how? > yes. well, its not a new @type, its a modification of it Ok, that really isn't how it looks in the Declaration section then. It looks like it is an entirely new attribute to me. >> 3) It says 'Derived from att.typed' to indicate this is a pure >> subset change? > no, there is not a _promise_ that its a subset change only. > its possible that we might use this to open up a data type? Wouldn't that be breaking our own rules on Conformance? > i reiterate that displaying what has changed in relation > to the source is not attempted, any more than it ever has been > in documentation for a customisation before. it would mean > a serious redesign. I see that. >> Should it be policy that any time we do something like this it >> requires a note/remark here about why this has been done? > yes, quite possibly. do you want to experiment and see how it would look? I'm not sure what you mean, surely it would look just like the note that is already there. I mean just having a standard bit of text we add in these circumstances. "This attribute has be redefined locally in order to provide a slightly narrowed definition." or something like that? -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Mon Jan 14 06:54:21 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 11:54:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] display of modified arts in P5 In-Reply-To: <50F3F0B9.6010709@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F19B73.6050000@uvic.ca> <728505BC-B409-451B-8180-D60859C7F7F5@it.ox.ac.uk> <4EE58CF4-6F27-4F5B-9298-714B56E57E20@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3E868.7060008@it.ox.ac.uk> <99BEB465-4DC5-47EC-BB96-79D77F0704DF@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3F0B9.6010709@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F3F1ED.6020500@kcl.ac.uk> On 2013-01-14 11:49, James Cummings wrote: > On 14/01/13 11:26, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> no, there is not a _promise_ that its a subset change only. >> its possible that we might use this to open up a data type? > > Wouldn't that be breaking our own rules on Conformance? I don't see why. It's not as if TEI has a global rule that @type must be a data.name, whether it's defined in att.typed or elsewhere on an elementSpec. If we did have such a rule, then any local schema that loosened the datatype would be breaking conformance with the TEI as a whole, but if we define it differently in one case, that's the thing people need to be conformant with, surely? -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 F: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 14 07:01:56 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 12:01:56 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] display of modified arts in P5 In-Reply-To: <50F3F0B9.6010709@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F19B73.6050000@uvic.ca> <728505BC-B409-451B-8180-D60859C7F7F5@it.ox.ac.uk> <4EE58CF4-6F27-4F5B-9298-714B56E57E20@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3E868.7060008@it.ox.ac.uk> <99BEB465-4DC5-47EC-BB96-79D77F0704DF@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3F0B9.6010709@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <509f6c8d-f966-45be-ac63-091559b3a2ad@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 14 Jan 2013, at 11:49, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > On 14/01/13 11:26, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> 2) It then creates a new @type element which is modified in some >>> way but I've no idea how? >> yes. well, its not a new @type, its a modification of it > > Ok, that really isn't how it looks in the Declaration section then. It looks like it is an entirely new attribute to me. i agree, its not ideal. I am out of ideas on how to present this, though. > >>> 3) It says 'Derived from att.typed' to indicate this is a pure >>> subset change? >> no, there is not a _promise_ that its a subset change only. >> its possible that we might use this to open up a data type? > > Wouldn't that be breaking our own rules on Conformance? not IMHO. this is all part of the guidelines, we set the rules. > I'm not sure what you mean, surely it would look just like the note that is already there. I mean just having a standard bit of text we add in these circumstances. "This attribute has be redefined locally in order to provide a slightly narrowed definition." or something like that? you could work through this on <title> (which already has a <remark>) and see how it looks. I think your text there is more confusing than not, but I could be persuaded either way. my general feeling remains that we're fetishizing attribute classes with all this, and creating imaginary problems. but I am aware I am not much good at empathy :-{ -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Jan 14 08:45:12 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 05:45:12 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] display of modified arts in P5 In-Reply-To: <50F3F1ED.6020500@kcl.ac.uk> References: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F19B73.6050000@uvic.ca> <728505BC-B409-451B-8180-D60859C7F7F5@it.ox.ac.uk> <4EE58CF4-6F27-4F5B-9298-714B56E57E20@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3E868.7060008@it.ox.ac.uk> <99BEB465-4DC5-47EC-BB96-79D77F0704DF@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3F0B9.6010709@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3F1ED.6020500@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F40BE8.9080000@uvic.ca> On 13-01-14 03:54 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > On 2013-01-14 11:49, James Cummings wrote: >> On 14/01/13 11:26, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> no, there is not a _promise_ that its a subset change only. >>> its possible that we might use this to open up a data type? >> >> Wouldn't that be breaking our own rules on Conformance? > > I don't see why. It's not as if TEI has a global rule that @type must be > a data.name, whether it's defined in att.typed or elsewhere on an > elementSpec. If we did have such a rule, then any local schema that > loosened the datatype would be breaking conformance with the TEI as a > whole, but if we define it differently in one case, that's the thing > people need to be conformant with, surely? If a previously-valid document now fails to validate against tei_all due to a datatype change, then we would be breaking backwards compatibility. Is that perhaps what James meant? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 14 08:50:07 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:50:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Orbi... et urbi! In-Reply-To: <CAL0EUgO6j88GYasJA1pVU2x6gUd9OZziXiXpnH5t5_E3OaLu5Q@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAL0EUgO6j88GYasJA1pVU2x6gUd9OZziXiXpnH5t5_E3OaLu5Q@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F40D0F.1040105@it.ox.ac.uk> Dear Council, Marjorie pointed out on the TEI-Board mailing list that the Vatican Library's Catalogue of Manuscripts notes that it is using the TEI-MS specification. I thought some of Council might be interested in this. Just to pass on the info, -James -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [tei-board] Orbi... et urbi! Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 00:10:55 +0100 From: Marjorie Burghart <marjorie.burghart at ehess.fr> Reply-To: <tei-board at lists.village.Virginia.EDU> To: <tei-board at lists.village.virginia.edu> Dear Board members, I've just checked the online catalogue of manuscripts at the Bibliotheca Apostolica Vaticana, and was delighted to read a mention of TEI on the front page :) http://www.vaticanlibrary.va/home.php?pag=catalogo_manoscritti Just to share the news ;) Marjorie From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 14 08:56:51 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:56:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] display of modified arts in P5 In-Reply-To: <50F40BE8.9080000@uvic.ca> References: <289C65CC-8BDF-478F-A1CE-2BC5FF04B59E@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F19B73.6050000@uvic.ca> <728505BC-B409-451B-8180-D60859C7F7F5@it.ox.ac.uk> <4EE58CF4-6F27-4F5B-9298-714B56E57E20@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3E868.7060008@it.ox.ac.uk> <99BEB465-4DC5-47EC-BB96-79D77F0704DF@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3F0B9.6010709@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3F1ED.6020500@kcl.ac.uk> <50F40BE8.9080000@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50F40EA3.10404@it.ox.ac.uk> On 14/01/13 13:45, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-01-14 03:54 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> On 2013-01-14 11:49, James Cummings wrote: >>> On 14/01/13 11:26, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>> no, there is not a _promise_ that its a subset change only. >>>> its possible that we might use this to open up a data type? >>> >>> Wouldn't that be breaking our own rules on Conformance? >> >> I don't see why. It's not as if TEI has a global rule that @type must be >> a data.name, whether it's defined in att.typed or elsewhere on an >> elementSpec. If we did have such a rule, then any local schema that >> loosened the datatype would be breaking conformance with the TEI as a >> whole, but if we define it differently in one case, that's the thing >> people need to be conformant with, surely? > > If a previously-valid document now fails to validate against tei_all due > to a datatype change, then we would be breaking backwards compatibility. > Is that perhaps what James meant? No, I was confused. As part of our Conformance guidelines we say it is fine to tighten up a specification (e.g. reduce the content model, constrain attribute values), but that loosening them so you've extended it in a way that something valid against your schema isn't valid against tei_all breaks the abstract model. You guys are right that we make the rules and this isn't the case. However, this is precisely the instance where I think an attribute _shouldn't_ be inherited from a class. If we are loosening/changing the content model so that something using this attribute would not validate for other uses of this attribute in the class, then that is a clear argument for me that it should be created locally. So I would only use this in-place modification where we are subsetting, refining the definition, or constraining the attribute's valList. If we're using it to make it looser then I don't think it is a member of the class any more. Or if you want a new conundrum, why do this rather than make the attribute class as a whole looser and tighten it up in all the *other* places rather than this one. Of course I could be continuing to misunderstand, -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Jan 14 11:18:33 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 08:18:33 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> > > And I still don't know what we do about "stylistic deprecation" -- where > we say this element is permitted in the content model, but you should > really only use it in this particular way (e.g. @target on <locus> ) I don't really think this is much of a problem in real life, as long as the Guidelines are chock-full of good examples of what we believe people should be doing. (Of course they're still a bit lacking in that area, but we are committed to fixing that.) Weird uses which are schema-compliant but undesirable tend to arise mainly because there's no useful example for people to follow. The elementSpec for <locus> is good in this respect: there are two examples and a note explaining the issue. If we give advice and people choose to ignore it, that's up to them, really. We can't police everything. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-13 01:44 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 13/01/13 21:28, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> on reflection, maybe I mean that when we decide to deprecate something, >> we move it immediately to the new Deprecated module. One day, we delete >> it even from there, but for a few years you can still use it if you want, with >> some extra barrier (making a new schema with that module) >> >> > > This is a cunning way of circumventing/subverting the Birnbaum Doctrine. > Whereas we used to say "no changes made in the TEI scheme will > invalidate your document", we're now saying "no changes made in the TEI > scheme will invalidate your document, so long as you include the > "deprecated" module in your schema". > Will it work though? Suppose we decide that we want to rename attribute > @target to @url and deprecate @target passim (stranger things have > happened). We make the change in P5. We provide alternative definitions > for all the elements which used to use @target in which they still do > and bung them in the deprecated module. So far so good. But now suppose > we make some other change to one or more of those elements, which > doesn't involve any deprecation but which is a straightforward bug fix. > Do we apply this fix to the deprecated version as well? What if (as you > suggested earlier) one or more of these elements gets a new attribute ? > > And I still don't know what we do about "stylistic deprecation" -- where > we say this element is permitted in the content model, but you should > really only use it in this particular way (e.g. @target on <locus> ) > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 15 05:36:24 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:36:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] http://purl.org/tei/fr/3575450 Message-ID: <50F53128.7040302@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi all, In ticket http://purl.org/tei/fr/3575450 Torsten asks that <availability> be allowed inside <recordHist> to enable manuscript descriptions have individual licences. While I think this is a bit bonkers (as Lou expressed on the ticket), I think the way to solve it really is much easier than what Torsten requested. Let's say it wasn't an <msDesc> that had a different licence, but a <text> or a <div>, what would we do then? Well simple, you say, we'd use @decls on this element to point to the header to say that this is the license that applies here. And right you'd be! My counter-proposal to Torsten is that we recommend storing all the licenses up in the header, as we would with different license for <text> elements, and that we have <msDesc> claim membership in the att.declaring class (which will get it the @decls attribute and the ability to choose non-default bits of the header that apply to it). Any objections or thoughts before I summarise this back on the ticket? -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jan 15 18:11:14 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 15:11:14 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Why is fDescr not fDesc? Message-ID: <50F5E212.8080906@uvic.ca> Does anyone know why <fDescr> (feature description) is so named, and not <fDesc>, like other <*Desc> elements? I'm not suggesting we should change it -- presumably we can't, now, because TEI feature structures are standardized by ISO -- but I just wondered if there's a history to it. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 07:30:33 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:30:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 Message-ID: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi there, John McCaskey believes we introduced new errors and confusion by our attempt to clarify the use of the @xml:space attribute and so re-opened a ticket about it. I suggested he rewrite the copy to what he believed would express the truth and Sebastian and I have both looked at it. http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 Since this is a textual (non-schema affecting) change, could Council look at this ASAP and see if you think it represents the truth of what we believe @xml:space to do? A lot of this seems to originate from vagueness in the original specification and different tool implementations. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 07:35:27 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 12:35:27 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <aa340055-99ec-4d0b-ba17-7ce538e2e02b@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> to save time later, i have added an XML marked-up version of JM's prose to the ticket and corrected a typo. i confess i have the very greatest difficulty understanding this issue, because it seems likely that I have got it wrong for the last decade, but i can't find a flaw in John's prose. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 08:24:12 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:24:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <aaab92ee-df29-40a5-ac0c-58bc23dc4c80@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> we do have an option of moving out _all_ the prose about xml:space and ending the prose at "We do not describe them in detail here" ... I think John M is right that we can do more harm than good if we don't get it exactly right, and all understand what we mean. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Jan 16 08:44:18 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 05:44:18 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F6AEB2.7090103@uvic.ca> The text reflects my own understanding of the situation (although I'm as cautious as Sebastian with regard to whether I do understand it or not). One bit caught my attention, though: "Treating a structured element as a mixed-content one, or vice versa, should be done with care. If it is done, the schema should be customized to record the fact." How would one customize the schema to do this? I can see that you could use @xml:space="preserve" to specify that an element with element-only content has significant whitespace, but that's in the encoding itself, not the schema; and I don't see how you can specify the reverse (since "default" won't do it). The text also explains how you can use <encodingDesc> to document such things. But I'm not sure how you could do it in the schema. Other than that, I think it's great. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-16 04:30 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > Hi there, > > John McCaskey believes we introduced new errors and confusion by > our attempt to clarify the use of the @xml:space attribute and so > re-opened a ticket about it. I suggested he rewrite the copy to > what he believed would express the truth and Sebastian and I have > both looked at it. > > http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 > > Since this is a textual (non-schema affecting) change, could > Council look at this ASAP and see if you think it represents the > truth of what we believe @xml:space to do? A lot of this seems > to originate from vagueness in the original specification and > different tool implementations. > > > -James > > > -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 08:57:23 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:57:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <50F6AEB2.7090103@uvic.ca> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6AEB2.7090103@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50F6B1C3.90206@it.ox.ac.uk> Some of the confusion, I think, might revolve around the dichotomy (which TEI exposes as false) between a simplistic view of an element's content as 'structured' or 'mixed content'. The TEI allows the same element to act as both and <persName> is indeed a good example of this. It sometimes just may have <forename> and <surname> in it, but other times might also have a comma or just text. If it is not mixed content then the tests I've done indicate it is usually treated as if it is what John calls a 'structured' element. To do otherwise implies schema-aware processing. There are plenty of times I've treated <persName> as if it is a 'structured' element... in fact I prefer to do that. I've never used @xml:space to indicate my intention, just relied on things following the same assumptions as me. (I'm not saying this is a good idea, just reporting on my usage.) I think I'd just remove the sentence starting 'If it is done,...'. -James On 16/01/13 13:44, Martin Holmes wrote: > The text reflects my own understanding of the situation (although I'm as > cautious as Sebastian with regard to whether I do understand it or not). > One bit caught my attention, though: > > "Treating a structured element as a mixed-content one, or vice versa, > should be done with care. If it is done, the schema should be customized > to record the fact." > > How would one customize the schema to do this? I can see that you could > use @xml:space="preserve" to specify that an element with element-only > content has significant whitespace, but that's in the encoding itself, > not the schema; and I don't see how you can specify the reverse (since > "default" won't do it). The text also explains how you can use > <encodingDesc> to document such things. But I'm not sure how you could > do it in the schema. > > Other than that, I think it's great. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-01-16 04:30 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> >> Hi there, >> >> John McCaskey believes we introduced new errors and confusion by >> our attempt to clarify the use of the @xml:space attribute and so >> re-opened a ticket about it. I suggested he rewrite the copy to >> what he believed would express the truth and Sebastian and I have >> both looked at it. >> >> http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 >> >> Since this is a textual (non-schema affecting) change, could >> Council look at this ASAP and see if you think it represents the >> truth of what we believe @xml:space to do? A lot of this seems >> to originate from vagueness in the original specification and >> different tool implementations. >> >> >> -James >> >> >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 09:22:10 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:22:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <50F6B1C3.90206@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6AEB2.7090103@uvic.ca> <50F6B1C3.90206@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4c02fed4-329d-4c54-a03e-16b985a0e777@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 16 Jan 2013, at 13:57, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Some of the confusion, I think, might revolve around the > dichotomy (which TEI exposes as false) between a simplistic view > of an element's content as 'structured' or 'mixed content'. The > TEI allows the same element to act as both and <persName> is > indeed a good example of this. i dont agree. persName is a mixed-content element, always. you may choose to pretend thats not so, in your project, but the TEI schema says that it can contain text nodes, so anything you put in must be treated as such > If it is not mixed content then the tests > I've done indicate it is usually treated as if it is what John > calls a 'structured' element. To do otherwise implies > schema-aware processing. no, no, and no. i think you're falling into john's trap > There are plenty of times I've treated > <persName> as if it is a 'structured' element... in fact I prefer > to do that. i honestly think you are confusing two issues * whether you choose to record punctuation, or insert it at render time * whether the whitespace between elements is, according to the TEI, meaningful > I've never used @xml:space to indicate my intention, > just relied on things following the same assumptions as me. and thats what causes John to have no hair, and a bruise on his head from banging it on the wall. xml:space is simply not relevant to whether those line endings after <forename> are significant or not. but i wholeheartedly agree, just remove the sentence "If it is done, the schema should be customised to record the fact" - what he means is, redefine the element so that the element cannot cannot text, and then adjust your strip-space accordingly. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From philomousos at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 09:30:46 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 09:30:46 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? Message-ID: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> I'm not sure where we left it: are we still on for this Thursday, or did we decide to delay a week or two? Hugh From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 09:31:45 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:31:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> On 16/01/13 14:30, Hugh Cayless wrote: > I'm not sure where we left it: are we still on for this Thursday, or did we decide to delay a week or two? My understanding is that we were still going on Thursday. Do others concur with that? -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 09:35:28 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:35:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <71689885-b612-46d9-a21f-7581ea98c7ff@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 16 Jan 2013, at 14:31, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > On 16/01/13 14:30, Hugh Cayless wrote: >> I'm not sure where we left it: are we still on for this Thursday, or did we decide to delay a week or two? > > My understanding is that we were still going on Thursday. > > Do others concur with that? i don't see any reason to change yet, fwiw. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Jan 16 11:13:31 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 08:13:31 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> OK with me. We should be in freeze mode right now, in that case, so I'd suggest the last change that's made be the insertion of John's slightly modified text about xml:space, and then we all take an hour or so this evening to read and click around in the Jenkins build of the Guidelines to make sure nothing untoward has been introduced recently. Jinks builds are here: <http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/index.html> <http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/index.html> Cheers, Martin On 13-01-16 06:31 AM, James Cummings wrote: > On 16/01/13 14:30, Hugh Cayless wrote: >> I'm not sure where we left it: are we still on for this Thursday, or did we decide to delay a week or two? > > My understanding is that we were still going on Thursday. > > Do others concur with that? > > -James > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 11:49:47 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 16:49:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50F6DA2B.5090104@it.ox.ac.uk> I agree with Martin below. Unless I hear any other disagreements about the @xml:space suggested prose I'll add it later this evening. Please do click around the Jenkins sites and double-check changes you've made or any other bits that catch your eye. If you have time then please give a quick skim (for typos or inconsistencies from which you can create bugs/fr tickets) through your 'birth month' chapter. (Yes, I know, completely silly way to do it...but better than nothing!) By the way, does anyone know what might have happened to our repositories on the 4-6 of December? Is there any reason we should have had a *massive* spike in SVN repository reads at that point? I mean going from 100 to 400 SVN repository reads to 84K, 137K, and 154K reads?!? https://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/stats/scm?repo=SVNRepository&dates=2012-10-25+to+2013-01-17 I was thinking of including some repository statistics but I suspect these aren't ...ermm... accurate?! -James On 16/01/13 16:13, Martin Holmes wrote: > OK with me. We should be in freeze mode right now, in that case, so I'd > suggest the last change that's made be the insertion of John's slightly > modified text about xml:space, and then we all take an hour or so this > evening to read and click around in the Jenkins build of the Guidelines > to make sure nothing untoward has been introduced recently. > > Jinks builds are here: > > <http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/index.html> > > <http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/index.html> > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-01-16 06:31 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> On 16/01/13 14:30, Hugh Cayless wrote: >>> I'm not sure where we left it: are we still on for this Thursday, or did we decide to delay a week or two? >> >> My understanding is that we were still going on Thursday. >> >> Do others concur with that? >> >> -James >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 11:50:22 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 11:50:22 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <4c02fed4-329d-4c54-a03e-16b985a0e777@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6AEB2.7090103@uvic.ca> <50F6B1C3.90206@it.ox.ac.uk> <4c02fed4-329d-4c54-a03e-16b985a0e777@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <CAA2irt+Gt+TtzGpq8Zrup100=+FPYNZA0pVbhHJN8jW_4mWV+Q@mail.gmail.com> John's prose looks really good to me--it is extremely clear and sensible. His understanding of this issue is much deeper than mine, so his account of these issues is gratefully welcomed. I had some reservations about whether this entire discussion belonged in the guidelines, preferring to err on the side of saying less and leaving a fuller discussion of how whitespace works to other platforms (like the wiki, where John has already graciously contributed a lot about this). However, the way John has written this ties the discussion clearly to a TEI-centric view of understanding the possible values for @xml:space, so it makes sense to me to include it. On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > On 16 Jan 2013, at 13:57, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: > >> >> Some of the confusion, I think, might revolve around the >> dichotomy (which TEI exposes as false) between a simplistic view >> of an element's content as 'structured' or 'mixed content'. The >> TEI allows the same element to act as both and <persName> is >> indeed a good example of this. > > i dont agree. persName is a mixed-content element, always. you may choose > to pretend thats not so, in your project, but the TEI schema says that > it can contain text nodes, so anything you put in must be treated as such > >> If it is not mixed content then the tests >> I've done indicate it is usually treated as if it is what John >> calls a 'structured' element. To do otherwise implies >> schema-aware processing. > > no, no, and no. i think you're falling into john's trap > >> There are plenty of times I've treated >> <persName> as if it is a 'structured' element... in fact I prefer >> to do that. > i honestly think you are confusing two issues > > * whether you choose to record punctuation, or insert it at render time > * whether the whitespace between elements is, according to the TEI, > meaningful > >> I've never used @xml:space to indicate my intention, >> just relied on things following the same assumptions as me. > > and thats what causes John to have no hair, and a bruise on his > head from banging it on the wall. xml:space is simply not > relevant to whether those line endings after <forename> > are significant or not. > > but i wholeheartedly agree, just remove the sentence > "If it is done, the schema should be customised to record the fact" > - what he means is, redefine the element so that the element > cannot cannot text, and then adjust your strip-space accordingly. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 12:51:08 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 17:51:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3ECC61E1-6144-491E-B109-177D49E0E5FE@it.ox.ac.uk> have a look at the formatted version at http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ST.html#index-body.1_div.1_div.3_div.1_div.1_div.5 and comment to James, so he can edit it tonight. i am not convinced it works as its own section -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed Jan 16 14:02:31 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:02:31 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <3ECC61E1-6144-491E-B109-177D49E0E5FE@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> <3ECC61E1-6144-491E-B109-177D49E0E5FE@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F6F947.6030208@ultraslavonic.info> I think it works as its own section but perhaps is in the wrong place in the Guidelines. What if it were inserted as a new section 3.3, between the current 3.2 and 3.3? On 1/16/2013 12:51 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > have a look at the formatted version at > http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ST.html#index-body.1_div.1_div.3_div.1_div.1_div.5 > and comment to James, so he can edit it tonight. > > i am not convinced it works as its own section > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 14:30:08 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:30:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <50F6DA2B.5090104@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> <50F6DA2B.5090104@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F6FFC0.6080808@retired.ox.ac.uk> I thought we'd agreed the cut off date for this release was to be the 15th ? I don't see any good reason to steamroller into it a revision which was only submitted as a FR on the 15th. The new section has several US-specific spellings, which need modifying. But more significantly, if there is some lurking misunderstanding or misrepresentation here,I for one would like to take my time and read the new text a lot more carefully this time round I've been offline up till now (dinner time) today so I am pretty sure I don't have time to do much with the text as proposed. On 16/01/13 16:49, James Cummings wrote: > I agree with Martin below. > > Unless I hear any other disagreements about the @xml:space > suggested prose I'll add it later this evening. > > Please do click around the Jenkins sites and double-check changes > you've made or any other bits that catch your eye. If you have > time then please give a quick skim (for typos or inconsistencies > from which you can create bugs/fr tickets) through your 'birth > month' chapter. (Yes, I know, completely silly way to do > it...but better than nothing!) > > By the way, does anyone know what might have happened to our > repositories on the 4-6 of December? Is there any reason we > should have had a *massive* spike in SVN repository reads at that > point? I mean going from 100 to 400 SVN repository reads to 84K, > 137K, and 154K reads?!? > > https://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/stats/scm?repo=SVNRepository&dates=2012-10-25+to+2013-01-17 > > I was thinking of including some repository statistics but I > suspect these aren't ...ermm... accurate?! > > -James > > On 16/01/13 16:13, Martin Holmes wrote: >> OK with me. We should be in freeze mode right now, in that case, so I'd >> suggest the last change that's made be the insertion of John's slightly >> modified text about xml:space, and then we all take an hour or so this >> evening to read and click around in the Jenkins build of the Guidelines >> to make sure nothing untoward has been introduced recently. >> >> Jinks builds are here: >> >> <http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/index.html> >> >> <http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/index.html> >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-01-16 06:31 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>> On 16/01/13 14:30, Hugh Cayless wrote: >>>> I'm not sure where we left it: are we still on for this Thursday, or did we decide to delay a week or two? >>> My understanding is that we were still going on Thursday. >>> >>> Do others concur with that? >>> >>> -James >>> > From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Jan 16 14:56:44 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:56:44 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <50F6DA2B.5090104@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> <50F6DA2B.5090104@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20727.1532.857145.629515@emt.ad.brown.edu> I see no reason to delay the release. > By the way, does anyone know what might have happened to our > repositories on the 4-6 of December? Is there any reason we should > have had a *massive* spike in SVN repository reads at that point? I > mean going from 100 to 400 SVN repository reads to 84K, 137K, and > 154K reads?!? No, I have no idea. In particular, those were *not* the dates of the WWP Customization workshop, which should have caused a teeny uptick. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed Jan 16 14:58:47 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:58:47 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <50F6DA2B.5090104@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> <50F6DA2B.5090104@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F70677.7010203@ultraslavonic.info> On 1/16/2013 11:49 AM, James Cummings wrote: > By the way, does anyone know what might have happened to our > repositories on the 4-6 of December? Is there any reason we > should have had a *massive* spike in SVN repository reads at that > point? I mean going from 100 to 400 SVN repository reads to 84K, > 137K, and 154K reads?!? > > https://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/stats/scm?repo=SVNRepository&dates=2012-10-25+to+2013-01-17 > > I was thinking of including some repository statistics but I > suspect these aren't ...ermm... accurate?! We've had similar problems with spikes downloads of particular, not especially in-demand files from our institutional repository. The downloads are from ISPs in China and Korea, so I suspect attempts at denial-of-service attacks. It does mess up the stats, unfortunately. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 15:15:29 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:15:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <50F6FFC0.6080808@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> <50F6DA2B.5090104@it.ox.ac.uk>,<50F6FFC0.6080808@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <412b84cf-b512-433a-81f3-6f51fc266cc1@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 16 Jan 2013, at 19:30, "Lou Burnard" <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > I thought we'd agreed the cut off date for this release was to be the 15th ? > > I don't see any good reason to steamroller into it a revision which was > only submitted as a FR on the 15th. The problem is that it's really a bug report on a recent change. If he is right, our Guidelines are simply wrong, so I think we do have a duty to respond urgently. If you do read it, follow along on your command line with some XML tools. James and I surprised ourselves earlier today doing this. > > The new section has several US-specific spellings, which need modifying. > Lets hope James spots them tonight ok. Sebastian From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 15:17:25 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:17:25 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <50F6F947.6030208@ultraslavonic.info> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> <3ECC61E1-6144-491E-B109-177D49E0E5FE@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F6F947.6030208@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <859BF24B-8DE9-4BCB-880F-5CCB582EFA92@oucs.ox.ac.uk> On 16 Jan 2013, at 19:02, "Kevin Hawkins" <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > I think it works as its own section but perhaps is in the wrong place in > the Guidelines. What if it were inserted as a new section 3.3, between > the current 3.2 and 3.3? > Better. Needs some change to wording in section on "other global attributes" too maybe? Sebastian From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 15:44:06 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:44:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <859BF24B-8DE9-4BCB-880F-5CCB582EFA92@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> <3ECC61E1-6144-491E-B109-177D49E0E5FE@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F6F947.6030208@ultraslavonic.info> <859BF24B-8DE9-4BCB-880F-5CCB582EFA92@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F71116.2060901@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 16/01/13 20:17, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > > On 16 Jan 2013, at 19:02, "Kevin Hawkins" <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > >> I think it works as its own section but perhaps is in the wrong place in >> the Guidelines. What if it were inserted as a new section 3.3, between >> the current 3.2 and 3.3? >> > Better. Needs some change to wording in section on "other global attributes" too maybe? > Sorry, I disagree, though I do think we need a reference to (and possibly some dioscuassion of) the issue in the current 3.2, on punctuation. Its current proposed location makes sense : it's in a section where we discuss the global attributes, one of which is xml:space. I would suggest splitting "Other global attributes" into two distinct sections, one on xml:base, one on xml:space and losing, or duplicating the current initial sentence about xml: namespaced attributes. From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 15:49:45 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:49:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <50F6B1C3.90206@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6AEB2.7090103@uvic.ca> <50F6B1C3.90206@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F71269.5030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 16/01/13 13:57, James Cummings wrote: > Some of the confusion, I think, might revolve around the > dichotomy (which TEI exposes as false) between a simplistic view > of an element's content as 'structured' or 'mixed content'. The > TEI allows the same element to act as both and <persName> is > indeed a good example of this. What?! The TEI does no such thing! You may choose to pretend that your <persName> doesn't have mixed content but You Are Wrong! You may redefine its content model so that text nodes are no longer permitted directly within it -- but that's a modification. This is not a false dichotomy: it's one we have seen before -- compare <bibl> and <biblStruct> for example. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 15:50:52 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:50:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <50F71116.2060901@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> <3ECC61E1-6144-491E-B109-177D49E0E5FE@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F6F947.6030208@ultraslavonic.info> <859BF24B-8DE9-4BCB-880F-5CCB582EFA92@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F71116.2060901@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <fef3e95f-2ba5-459a-aef6-6545ee268351@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 16 Jan 2013, at 20:44, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Its current proposed location makes sense : it's in a section where we > discuss the global attributes, one of which is xml:space. tho its about more than xml:space, of course > I would > suggest splitting "Other global attributes" into two distinct sections, > one on xml:base, can you suggest a nice heading for that? i cant think of an appropriate English word. > one on xml:space and losing, or duplicating the current > initial sentence about xml: namespaced attributes. > true -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 15:51:25 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:51:25 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <50F71269.5030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6AEB2.7090103@uvic.ca> <50F6B1C3.90206@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F71269.5030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F712CD.3060309@it.ox.ac.uk> On 16/01/13 20:49, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 16/01/13 13:57, James Cummings wrote: >> Some of the confusion, I think, might revolve around the >> dichotomy (which TEI exposes as false) between a simplistic view >> of an element's content as 'structured' or 'mixed content'. The >> TEI allows the same element to act as both and <persName> is >> indeed a good example of this. > > What?! The TEI does no such thing! You may choose to pretend that your > <persName> doesn't have mixed content but You Are Wrong! You may > redefine its content model so that text nodes are no longer permitted > directly within it -- but that's a modification. This is not a false > dichotomy: it's one we have seen before -- compare <bibl> and > <biblStruct> for example. Yes, Sebastian has already pointed out my error in thinking here. Really what I meant is that *I* often use <persName> as if it is 'structured' and not mixed-content. -James > > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 15:53:07 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:53:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <50F712CD.3060309@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6AEB2.7090103@uvic.ca> <50F6B1C3.90206@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F71269.5030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F712CD.3060309@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F71333.1090501@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 16/01/13 20:51, James Cummings wrote: > Yes, Sebastian has already pointed out my error in thinking here. > Really what I meant is that *I* often use <persName> as if it is > 'structured' and not mixed-content. -James Say three "Hail Michaels" and fast for a week. Go in peace, and sin no more. From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 15:53:58 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:53:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <50F71116.2060901@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> <3ECC61E1-6144-491E-B109-177D49E0E5FE@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F6F947.6030208@ultraslavonic.info> <859BF24B-8DE9-4BCB-880F-5CCB582EFA92@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F71116.2060901@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F71366.6020209@it.ox.ac.uk> I agree with Sebastian that we should do it (because the early explanation is misleading). I agree with Lou that it should be where it is currently proposed. (And once there, I think it is less problematic to move, split, or re-organise it in a subsequent review... but yes, of course, nice to get it right first time.) Also, I should point out that the freeze of last night is intended for *schema-affecting* changes. Changing of prose, correcting typos, etc. are allowed (if important) up until Hugh announces a release freeze as part of the steps of making a release tomorrow. -James On 16/01/13 20:44, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 16/01/13 20:17, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> >> On 16 Jan 2013, at 19:02, "Kevin Hawkins" <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: >> >>> I think it works as its own section but perhaps is in the wrong place in >>> the Guidelines. What if it were inserted as a new section 3.3, between >>> the current 3.2 and 3.3? >>> >> Better. Needs some change to wording in section on "other global attributes" too maybe? >> > > Sorry, I disagree, though I do think we need a reference to (and > possibly some dioscuassion of) the issue in the current 3.2, on punctuation. > > Its current proposed location makes sense : it's in a section where we > discuss the global attributes, one of which is xml:space. I would > suggest splitting "Other global attributes" into two distinct sections, > one on xml:base, one on xml:space and losing, or duplicating the current > initial sentence about xml: namespaced attributes. > > > > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 15:56:48 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:56:48 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <569BF513-2636-4D2F-8765-C46765FD0885@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> <3ECC61E1-6144-491E-B109-177D49E0E5FE@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F6F947.6030208@ultraslavonic.info> <859BF24B-8DE9-4BCB-880F-5CCB582EFA92@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F71116.2060901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <569BF513-2636-4D2F-8765-C46765FD0885@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F71410.40808@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 16/01/13 20:50, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 16 Jan 2013, at 20:44, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: > >> Its current proposed location makes sense : it's in a section where we >> discuss the global attributes, one of which is xml:space. > tho its about more than xml:space, of course True, but no more than the other subsections of this section necessarily discuss other things as a consequence of their subject matter. > >> I would >> suggest splitting "Other global attributes" into two distinct sections, >> one on xml:base, > can you suggest a nice heading for that? i cant think of an appropriate English word. Hmm. "Linking context"? "Relative pointer context"? "Evaluation of hyperlinks"? From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Jan 16 16:36:26 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 13:36:26 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <50F71366.6020209@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> <3ECC61E1-6144-491E-B109-177D49E0E5FE@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F6F947.6030208@ultraslavonic.info> <859BF24B-8DE9-4BCB-880F-5CCB582EFA92@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F71116.2060901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F71366.6020209@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F71D5A.8040003@uvic.ca> On 13-01-16 12:53 PM, James Cummings wrote: > > I agree with Sebastian that we should do it (because the early > explanation is misleading). I agree with Lou that it should be > where it is currently proposed. (And once there, I think it is > less problematic to move, split, or re-organise it in a > subsequent review... but yes, of course, nice to get it right > first time.) > Also, I should point out that the freeze of last night is > intended for *schema-affecting* changes. Changing of prose, > correcting typos, etc. are allowed (if important) up until Hugh > announces a release freeze as part of the steps of making a > release tomorrow. Ooo. Slippery slope. I predict dozens of last-minute tweaks kicking off cascades of rebuilds that eat up half the release day... > > -James > > > On 16/01/13 20:44, Lou Burnard wrote: >> On 16/01/13 20:17, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 16 Jan 2013, at 19:02, "Kevin Hawkins" <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: >>> >>>> I think it works as its own section but perhaps is in the wrong place in >>>> the Guidelines. What if it were inserted as a new section 3.3, between >>>> the current 3.2 and 3.3? >>>> >>> Better. Needs some change to wording in section on "other global attributes" too maybe? >>> >> >> Sorry, I disagree, though I do think we need a reference to (and >> possibly some dioscuassion of) the issue in the current 3.2, on punctuation. >> >> Its current proposed location makes sense : it's in a section where we >> discuss the global attributes, one of which is xml:space. I would >> suggest splitting "Other global attributes" into two distinct sections, >> one on xml:base, one on xml:space and losing, or duplicating the current >> initial sentence about xml: namespaced attributes. >> >> >> >> > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 16:43:51 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:43:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release date? In-Reply-To: <50F71D5A.8040003@uvic.ca> References: <AE5E6D74-8271-48A7-A12D-F16E8395F57D@gmail.com> <50F6B9D1.4080002@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6D1AB.7030205@uvic.ca> <3ECC61E1-6144-491E-B109-177D49E0E5FE@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F6F947.6030208@ultraslavonic.info> <859BF24B-8DE9-4BCB-880F-5CCB582EFA92@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F71116.2060901@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F71366.6020209@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F71D5A.8040003@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50F71F17.3010103@it.ox.ac.uk> On 16/01/13 21:36, Martin Holmes wrote: > Ooo. Slippery slope. I predict dozens of last-minute tweaks kicking off > cascades of rebuilds that eat up half the release day... That's why they all have to stop when he announces a release. In practice these tend to stop the evening before ;-) But yes, if loads are queued up that could be problematic. -James > > >> >> -James >> >> >> On 16/01/13 20:44, Lou Burnard wrote: >>> On 16/01/13 20:17, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16 Jan 2013, at 19:02, "Kevin Hawkins" <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I think it works as its own section but perhaps is in the wrong place in >>>>> the Guidelines. What if it were inserted as a new section 3.3, between >>>>> the current 3.2 and 3.3? >>>>> >>>> Better. Needs some change to wording in section on "other global attributes" too maybe? >>>> >>> >>> Sorry, I disagree, though I do think we need a reference to (and >>> possibly some dioscuassion of) the issue in the current 3.2, on punctuation. >>> >>> Its current proposed location makes sense : it's in a section where we >>> discuss the global attributes, one of which is xml:space. I would >>> suggest splitting "Other global attributes" into two distinct sections, >>> one on xml:base, one on xml:space and losing, or duplicating the current >>> initial sentence about xml: namespaced attributes. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 16:48:28 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:48:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <50F71333.1090501@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6AEB2.7090103@uvic.ca> <50F6B1C3.90206@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F71269.5030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F712CD.3060309@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F71333.1090501@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F7202C.1090207@it.ox.ac.uk> I've edited it slightly, if people have further changes that they want to do I'm happy to do so if they are unwilling. http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca:8080/job/TEIP5-Documentation/ws/Guidelines-web/en/html/ST.html#index-body.1_div.1_div.3_div.1_div.1_div.5 -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 16:49:42 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:49:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <50F7202C.1090207@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6AEB2.7090103@uvic.ca> <50F6B1C3.90206@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F71269.5030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F712CD.3060309@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F71333.1090501@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F7202C.1090207@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F72076.7000909@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 16/01/13 21:48, James Cummings wrote: > I've edited it slightly, if people have further changes that they > want to do I'm happy to do so if they are unwilling. > > http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca:8080/job/TEIP5-Documentation/ws/Guidelines-web/en/html/ST.html#index-body.1_div.1_div.3_div.1_div.1_div.5 > > I am in the throes of rewording this a bit more, and will check in my version in the next half hour or so. From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 17:12:18 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 22:12:18 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <50F72076.7000909@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6AEB2.7090103@uvic.ca> <50F6B1C3.90206@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F71269.5030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F712CD.3060309@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F71333.1090501@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F7202C.1090207@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F72076.7000909@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F725C2.9050603@it.ox.ac.uk> On 16/01/13 21:49, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 16/01/13 21:48, James Cummings wrote: >> I've edited it slightly, if people have further changes that they >> want to do I'm happy to do so if they are unwilling. >> >> http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca:8080/job/TEIP5-Documentation/ws/Guidelines-web/en/html/ST.html#index-body.1_div.1_div.3_div.1_div.1_div.5 >> >> > > I am in the throes of rewording this a bit more, and will check in my > version in the next half hour or so. Many thanks! I think I caught some of the americanisms, but not all! -James > > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 16 17:24:23 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 22:24:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <50F725C2.9050603@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6AEB2.7090103@uvic.ca> <50F6B1C3.90206@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F71269.5030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F712CD.3060309@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F71333.1090501@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F7202C.1090207@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F72076.7000909@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F725C2.9050603@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F72897.5060206@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 16/01/13 22:12, James Cummings wrote: > Many thanks! I think I caught some of the americanisms, but not all! The trick is not just to replace the americanisms with briticisms though. You have to find a turn of phrase which is not marked as coming from either side of the pond. This is, in general, impossible, I freely confess. From bbarney2 at unl.edu Wed Jan 16 18:03:12 2013 From: bbarney2 at unl.edu (Brett Barney) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 23:03:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:space, whitespace and http://purl.org/tei/bug/3600991 In-Reply-To: <50F72897.5060206@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F69D69.5020607@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F6AEB2.7090103@uvic.ca> <50F6B1C3.90206@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F71269.5030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F712CD.3060309@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F71333.1090501@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F7202C.1090207@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F72076.7000909@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F725C2.9050603@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F72897.5060206@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <596F07805EF3FB4CAB6D065ACD28447A1A8C5B8B@BY2PRD0811MB427.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> On Jan 16, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > > The trick is not just to replace the americanisms with briticisms > though. You have to find a turn of phrase which is not marked as coming > from either side of the pond. > This is, in general, impossible, I freely confess. Glad to have Lou's confession in writing for future reference. :) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 17 05:06:58 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:06:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] navigation problem in guidelines xslt Message-ID: <50F7CD42.1060707@it.ox.ac.uk> When I compare http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/REF-ELEMENTS.html and http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5-Documentation/ws/Guidelines-web/en/html/REF-ELEMENTS.html The little navigation box on the right-hand side seems to not be giving 'forward' navigation. The same is true in the Guidelines chapters. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 17 07:56:45 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 12:56:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] draft P5 2.3.0 release notes Message-ID: <50F7F50D.8010709@it.ox.ac.uk> I've done some draft 2.3.0 release notes for Hugh at: http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca:8080/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/readme-2.3.0.html Let me know if in the 'highlights of the TEI P5 2.3.0 release' your favourite change is not noted. (There were a lot and I tried to choose a variety of types and subjects, mostly based on their commit messages.) The urls in most cases link through to the Vault location of 2.3.0 where it *will* be after we do the release...so if they go to the wrong place tell me, but obviously nothing is meant to be there at the moment. (The exception to this being a mention of the 'att.sourced' class which points to 2.2.0 since it was being renamed att.edition, if I've understood correctly.) Also send me corrections if I've entirely mis-understood the nature of the change, typos, etc. Happy to make any changes, -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From philomousos at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 09:24:59 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:24:59 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] commit freeze Message-ID: <A9C009E8-64D9-4F2A-A59E-767529F5E0E4@gmail.com> Hi all, I'm starting work on the release, so I'm calling a commit freeze as of 0924 EST. This is your last chance to yell NO WAIT STOP. :-) Hugh From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jan 17 09:29:56 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:29:56 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] draft P5 2.3.0 release notes In-Reply-To: <50F7F50D.8010709@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F7F50D.8010709@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F80AE4.2030000@ultraslavonic.info> I suppose that revisions to this are the one exception to the commit freeze? How about mentioning the addition of <citedRange>, which is now distinguished from <biblScope>. See new section 3.11.2.4 Scopes and ranges in bibliographic citations describing the difference. On 1/17/2013 7:56 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > I've done some draft 2.3.0 release notes for Hugh at: > > http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca:8080/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/readme-2.3.0.html > > Let me know if in the 'highlights of the TEI P5 2.3.0 release' > your favourite change is not noted. (There were a lot and I > tried to choose a variety of types and subjects, mostly based on > their commit messages.) > > The urls in most cases link through to the Vault location of > 2.3.0 where it *will* be after we do the release...so if they go > to the wrong place tell me, but obviously nothing is meant to be > there at the moment. (The exception to this being a mention of > the 'att.sourced' class which points to 2.2.0 since it was being > renamed att.edition, if I've understood correctly.) > > Also send me corrections if I've entirely mis-understood the > nature of the change, typos, etc. > > Happy to make any changes, > > > -James > From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Jan 17 09:31:01 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:31:01 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] commit freeze In-Reply-To: <A9C009E8-64D9-4F2A-A59E-767529F5E0E4@gmail.com> References: <A9C009E8-64D9-4F2A-A59E-767529F5E0E4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20728.2853.529128.818077@emt.ad.brown.edu> All I'll yell is GOOD LUCK HUGH. :-) Can someone remind me of the IRC channel? > I'm starting work on the release, so I'm calling a commit freeze as > of 0924 EST. > > This is your last chance to yell NO WAIT STOP. From philomousos at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 09:32:29 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:32:29 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] draft P5 2.3.0 release notes In-Reply-To: <50F80AE4.2030000@ultraslavonic.info> References: <50F7F50D.8010709@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F80AE4.2030000@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <937D5937-7696-4A75-BE79-07AA4B7FA870@gmail.com> Well, no. I'll be doing them :-) I'll put that in. H On Jan 17, 2013, at 9:29 , Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > I suppose that revisions to this are the one exception to the commit freeze? > > How about mentioning the addition of <citedRange>, which is now > distinguished from <biblScope>. See new section 3.11.2.4 Scopes and > ranges in bibliographic citations describing the difference. > > On 1/17/2013 7:56 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> >> I've done some draft 2.3.0 release notes for Hugh at: >> >> http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca:8080/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/readme-2.3.0.html >> >> Let me know if in the 'highlights of the TEI P5 2.3.0 release' >> your favourite change is not noted. (There were a lot and I >> tried to choose a variety of types and subjects, mostly based on >> their commit messages.) >> >> The urls in most cases link through to the Vault location of >> 2.3.0 where it *will* be after we do the release...so if they go >> to the wrong place tell me, but obviously nothing is meant to be >> there at the moment. (The exception to this being a mention of >> the 'att.sourced' class which points to 2.2.0 since it was being >> renamed att.edition, if I've understood correctly.) >> >> Also send me corrections if I've entirely mis-understood the >> nature of the change, typos, etc. >> >> Happy to make any changes, >> >> >> -James >> > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 17 09:48:00 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 14:48:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] draft P5 2.3.0 release notes In-Reply-To: <937D5937-7696-4A75-BE79-07AA4B7FA870@gmail.com> References: <50F7F50D.8010709@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F80AE4.2030000@ultraslavonic.info> <937D5937-7696-4A75-BE79-07AA4B7FA870@gmail.com> Message-ID: <384C1936-74B6-4B9A-9BA5-D03EAD9104AD@it.ox.ac.uk> just to how how NICE I am, I am going to hold back from releasing a new version of my XSL stylesheets which actually implement the rules espoused in our section about whitespace, and have the side effect of changing almost every output file in the test suite..... and which would probably cause the whole Guidelines to look different........ jolly interesting, this whitespace business :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From philomousos at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 09:54:16 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:54:16 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] draft P5 2.3.0 release notes In-Reply-To: <384C1936-74B6-4B9A-9BA5-D03EAD9104AD@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F7F50D.8010709@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F80AE4.2030000@ultraslavonic.info> <937D5937-7696-4A75-BE79-07AA4B7FA870@gmail.com> <384C1936-74B6-4B9A-9BA5-D03EAD9104AD@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <64587868-60AF-4D33-A198-730DDBA21BAC@gmail.com> You ARE nice :-) Some time in the future, I may add a bit to that section on how xml:space="preserve" can be actually very *useful*, but not today. Hugh On Jan 17, 2013, at 9:48 , Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > just to how how NICE I am, I am going to hold back from releasing a new version > of my XSL stylesheets which actually implement the rules espoused in our section > about whitespace, and have the side effect of changing almost every output file > in the test suite..... and which would probably cause the whole Guidelines to look > different........ > > jolly interesting, this whitespace business :-} > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From philomousos at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 10:10:12 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:10:12 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] draft P5 2.3.0 release notes In-Reply-To: <50F80AE4.2030000@ultraslavonic.info> References: <50F7F50D.8010709@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F80AE4.2030000@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <A2A40724-F6C5-4776-B18A-24EE2C9BC20C@gmail.com> I can't find a sourceforge ticket for this. Is there one? On Jan 17, 2013, at 9:29 , Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > I suppose that revisions to this are the one exception to the commit freeze? > > How about mentioning the addition of <citedRange>, which is now > distinguished from <biblScope>. See new section 3.11.2.4 Scopes and > ranges in bibliographic citations describing the difference. > > On 1/17/2013 7:56 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> >> I've done some draft 2.3.0 release notes for Hugh at: >> >> http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca:8080/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/readme-2.3.0.html >> >> Let me know if in the 'highlights of the TEI P5 2.3.0 release' >> your favourite change is not noted. (There were a lot and I >> tried to choose a variety of types and subjects, mostly based on >> their commit messages.) >> >> The urls in most cases link through to the Vault location of >> 2.3.0 where it *will* be after we do the release...so if they go >> to the wrong place tell me, but obviously nothing is meant to be >> there at the moment. (The exception to this being a mention of >> the 'att.sourced' class which points to 2.2.0 since it was being >> renamed att.edition, if I've understood correctly.) >> >> Also send me corrections if I've entirely mis-understood the >> nature of the change, typos, etc. >> >> Happy to make any changes, >> >> >> -James >> > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 17 10:14:18 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 15:14:18 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] draft P5 2.3.0 release notes In-Reply-To: <64587868-60AF-4D33-A198-730DDBA21BAC@gmail.com> References: <50F7F50D.8010709@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F80AE4.2030000@ultraslavonic.info> <937D5937-7696-4A75-BE79-07AA4B7FA870@gmail.com> <384C1936-74B6-4B9A-9BA5-D03EAD9104AD@it.ox.ac.uk> <64587868-60AF-4D33-A198-730DDBA21BAC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0BFE38E2-46A8-4178-AED8-911C8E42CD2F@it.ox.ac.uk> On 17 Jan 2013, at 14:54, Hugh Cayless <philomousos at gmail.com> wrote: > > Some time in the future, I may add a bit to that section on how xml:space="preserve" can be actually very *useful* fighting talk..... -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu Jan 17 10:24:23 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 15:24:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] commit freeze In-Reply-To: <20728.2853.529128.818077@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <A9C009E8-64D9-4F2A-A59E-767529F5E0E4@gmail.com> <20728.2853.529128.818077@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <50F817A7.90400@kcl.ac.uk> Syd, irc://freenode/TEI-C Cheers, G On 2013-01-17 14:31, Syd Bauman wrote: > All I'll yell is GOOD LUCK HUGH. > :-) > > Can someone remind me of the IRC channel? > > >> I'm starting work on the release, so I'm calling a commit freeze as >> of 0924 EST. >> >> This is your last chance to yell NO WAIT STOP. -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 17 10:49:32 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 15:49:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] commit freeze In-Reply-To: <50F817A7.90400@kcl.ac.uk> References: <A9C009E8-64D9-4F2A-A59E-767529F5E0E4@gmail.com> <20728.2853.529128.818077@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F817A7.90400@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F81D8C.7010308@it.ox.ac.uk> Or see http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/IRC -James On 17/01/13 15:24, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Syd, > > irc://freenode/TEI-C > > Cheers, > > G > > On 2013-01-17 14:31, Syd Bauman wrote: >> All I'll yell is GOOD LUCK HUGH. >> :-) >> >> Can someone remind me of the IRC channel? >> >> >>> I'm starting work on the release, so I'm calling a commit freeze as >>> of 0924 EST. >>> >>> This is your last chance to yell NO WAIT STOP. > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jan 17 11:19:51 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:19:51 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] draft P5 2.3.0 release notes In-Reply-To: <A2A40724-F6C5-4776-B18A-24EE2C9BC20C@gmail.com> References: <50F7F50D.8010709@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F80AE4.2030000@ultraslavonic.info> <A2A40724-F6C5-4776-B18A-24EE2C9BC20C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F824A7.1080306@ultraslavonic.info> http://purl.org/TEI/FR/3555191 On 1/17/2013 10:10 AM, Hugh Cayless wrote: > I can't find a sourceforge ticket for this. Is there one? > > On Jan 17, 2013, at 9:29 , Kevin Hawkins<kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > >> I suppose that revisions to this are the one exception to the commit freeze? >> >> How about mentioning the addition of<citedRange>, which is now >> distinguished from<biblScope>. See new section 3.11.2.4 Scopes and >> ranges in bibliographic citations describing the difference. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jan 17 21:32:34 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 21:32:34 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50F8B442.4040802@ultraslavonic.info> Thank you all for you contributions to this discussion. I have added them to http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Deprecation to help Lou and me along in formulating the proposal promised for the next face-to-face meeting. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jan 17 21:35:10 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 21:35:10 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Doodle Poll for Spring Council meeting In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpe+vQ3zdeaB93SDGt08gvgAjzMmQPCBipm96sxnjEoh5A@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpe+vQ3zdeaB93SDGt08gvgAjzMmQPCBipm96sxnjEoh5A@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50F8B4DE.4020702@ultraslavonic.info> All, I see disappointingly few responses to this poll. If the dates haven't been chosen yet, perhaps the rest of you could indicate your availability so we could settle on meeting dates? --Kevin On 12/13/12 2:38 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > Please visit the following link > > http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i > > to vote on most desirable and least desirable dates for the spring meeting. > > --elli > > [Elli Mylonas > Senior Digital Humanities Librarian > and > Center for Digital Scholarship > University Library > Brown University > library.brown.edu/cds] > From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jan 17 22:29:41 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 19:29:41 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <50F8B442.4040802@ultraslavonic.info> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk>, <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> <50F8B442.4040802@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <50F8C1A5.8050701@uvic.ca> One more thing just occurred to me: Sebastian suggested using Schematron to warn when an element is deprecated, but that's probably not so good because it will annoy people still using it. However, we could use Schematron _after_ a deprecated element is finally deleted, to trap for its presence and explain that it was previously deprecated and is now gone. That would only hit people once, when they update their schema after the deletion, and it would provide a helpful explanation for a situation which might otherwise take them by surprise or puzzle them. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-17 06:32 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Thank you all for you contributions to this discussion. I have added > them to http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Deprecation to help Lou and me > along in formulating the proposal promised for the next face-to-face > meeting. > From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Jan 17 23:52:39 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 23:52:39 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Doodle Poll for Spring Council meeting In-Reply-To: <50F8B4DE.4020702@ultraslavonic.info> References: <CAMuBKpe+vQ3zdeaB93SDGt08gvgAjzMmQPCBipm96sxnjEoh5A@mail.gmail.com> <50F8B4DE.4020702@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <20728.54551.149284.749822@emt.ad.brown.edu> Sorry, I didn't even notice the initial e-mail. Filled out now. It may be worth keeping in mind that other XMLers, particularly George and Radu from oXygen, will be in Providence for the DITA conference Mon 04-15 to Wed 04-17. (I haven't heard from Eliot Kimber yet.) George and Radu plan to stick around until Fri 04-19 or Sat 04-20. That's why I did not check that Thu and Fri -- Julia and I, and probably Elli, will likely be playing host to George and Radu for some or all of those days. They will probably be giving a show-and- tell or two. > I see disappointingly few responses to this poll. If the dates > haven't been chosen yet, perhaps the rest of you could indicate > your availability so we could settle on meeting dates? > > http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 04:47:44 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:47:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: TEI P5 version 2.3.0 is released! In-Reply-To: <261CD5CB-3EF4-4A08-BE70-B88FED3D7666@brown.edu> References: <261CD5CB-3EF4-4A08-BE70-B88FED3D7666@brown.edu> Message-ID: <50F91A40.9090601@it.ox.ac.uk> Dear Council, You may wish to read this community feedback. Congrats especially go to Hugh for patiently waiting for Jenkins rebuilds, and Martin and Sebastian on IRC for noticing and solving some additional problems. I have, of course, attempted to disabuse Julia of the notion that it was all magically smooth sailing by explaining the process in more detail. -James -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: TEI P5 version 2.3.0 is released! Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2013 21:07:46 -0500 From: Julia Flanders <julia_flanders at brown.edu> To: James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> James, may I please express my great and heartfelt commendation to you (as proxy if necessary for others involved) for the way this process has become so transparent and admirable and effective? I'm really, really impressed every time something comes out from the Council--it really seems like an exemplary and well-run organization, and I just feel lucky that it's working in an area I care about :-) Bravo-- best, Julia From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 04:53:01 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:53:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Doodle Poll for Spring Council meeting In-Reply-To: <20728.54551.149284.749822@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <CAMuBKpe+vQ3zdeaB93SDGt08gvgAjzMmQPCBipm96sxnjEoh5A@mail.gmail.com> <50F8B4DE.4020702@ultraslavonic.info> <20728.54551.149284.749822@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <50F91B7D.3040806@it.ox.ac.uk> Oops, I had missed this as well. So far looking like 10-12 is probably the least inconvenient for the most people. -James On 18/01/13 04:52, Syd Bauman wrote: > Sorry, I didn't even notice the initial e-mail. Filled out now. > > It may be worth keeping in mind that other XMLers, particularly > George and Radu from oXygen, will be in Providence for the DITA > conference Mon 04-15 to Wed 04-17. (I haven't heard from Eliot Kimber > yet.) George and Radu plan to stick around until Fri 04-19 or Sat > 04-20. That's why I did not check that Thu and Fri -- Julia and I, > and probably Elli, will likely be playing host to George and Radu for > some or all of those days. They will probably be giving a show-and- > tell or two. > >> I see disappointingly few responses to this poll. If the dates >> haven't been chosen yet, perhaps the rest of you could indicate >> your availability so we could settle on meeting dates? > >>> http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 05:14:04 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 10:14:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release Process Message-ID: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi Council, Several suggestions were made (on IRC) about the release process that we go through and how we might make it more robust, open, and manageable. Having a process where we freeze schema-changing commits and only correct prose/typos has served us well, but it has been suggested that we extend this and open it to the TEI community. How about this as a strawman proposal: 2 weeks before release: - Stop schema-affecting changes - Freeze development on stylesheets, roma, oxgarage, etc. - Proofread for stability/functioning of release - Proofread for typos, bad examples, missing prose, etc. - Only fix non-schema relating things - Version number fixed at this point - if something larger and release-blocking is discovered the clock resets to zero once the problem is solved. 1 week before release: - Stop any changes by Council except typos - Announce beta release on TEI-L and point them to lastSuccessfulArtifact on Jenkins - Accept and correct any minor typos by public - If anything more significant than a typo is raised that Council determines is release-blocking, the whole process is frozen and clock reset to zero once the problem is solved. 1 day before release: - Final release notes agreed. - Final date change - Then SVN frozen entirely Day of release: - No SVN changes, only release made - Testing of Roma and related systems after release made, but before announced. - Announce release Improvements? -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 07:56:16 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 12:56:16 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release Process In-Reply-To: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <cb0be15f-1828-4242-9adc-a7f8e0afc10c@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> i think yesterday would have passed without incident if I had not simultaneously tried to make stylesheet fixes, so the "freeze all other changes and issue a public beta for a week" will deal with most situations. WHat it would not catch is where the new release bites Roma or Oxgarage, as we don't have beta releases of those, but thats not a likely attack vector. Just to stress that the traumatic hours yesterday were NOT caused by the new P5 release itself breaking anything. it _looked_ like it broke Roma, but that was a delusion. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 08:03:10 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:03:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release Process In-Reply-To: <cb0be15f-1828-4242-9adc-a7f8e0afc10c@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> <cb0be15f-1828-4242-9adc-a7f8e0afc10c@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F9480E.3090402@it.ox.ac.uk> Perhaps one of the things to do in that first week would be to deploy the Release Candidate on the development version of Roma and Oxgarage? -James On 18/01/13 12:56, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > i think yesterday would have passed without incident if I had not simultaneously tried to make stylesheet fixes, > so the "freeze all other changes and issue a public beta for a week" will deal with most situations. WHat it > would not catch is where the new release bites Roma or Oxgarage, as we don't have beta releases of those, > but thats not a likely attack vector. > > Just to stress that the traumatic hours yesterday were NOT caused by the new P5 release itself > breaking anything. it _looked_ like it broke Roma, but that was a delusion. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 08:23:54 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:23:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release Process In-Reply-To: <50F9480E.3090402@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> <cb0be15f-1828-4242-9adc-a7f8e0afc10c@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50F9480E.3090402@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <e7d1ba8d-ec24-43ad-b9dc-226bcbfc45ed@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 18 Jan 2013, at 13:03, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Perhaps one of the things to do in that first week would be to > deploy the Release Candidate on the development version of Roma > and Oxgarage? We don't really have either of those, I am afraid. the Roma on tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk is not stable or up to date. and OxGarage does not have a copy of P5 in anyway. Roma on www.tei-c.org points at the oxgarage there, which gets its stylesheets etc from the local install. The answers to the questions you will now ask are a) no and b) no :-} (I speak solely for my own input and time there). Roll on Byzantium. Unfortunately the reaction to that is effectively non-existent (in terms of anyone wanting to work on it or say they will use it) :-{ -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 18 08:40:58 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 05:40:58 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Release Process In-Reply-To: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F950EA.6030105@uvic.ca> I think release notes and version information should be done at least a week before release. Since there will be no schema-affecting changes, there's no reason not to, and in both of the last two releases we've found typos in them at the very last minute, which slowed things down a bit. If the clock gets reset at some point, we'd have to change the dates. Watching the release process yesterday made me think again about using git. If Council members could continue their schema-changing work in their own forks, leaving the trunk unchanged, during the two-week release period, we might have less instability. Then immediately after release, they could merge their branches and let Jinks have at them. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-18 02:14 AM, James Cummings wrote: > Hi Council, > > Several suggestions were made (on IRC) about the release process > that we go through and how we might make it more robust, open, > and manageable. > > Having a process where we freeze schema-changing commits and only > correct prose/typos has served us well, but it has been suggested > that we extend this and open it to the TEI community. > > How about this as a strawman proposal: > > 2 weeks before release: > - Stop schema-affecting changes > - Freeze development on stylesheets, roma, oxgarage, etc. > - Proofread for stability/functioning of release > - Proofread for typos, bad examples, missing prose, etc. > - Only fix non-schema relating things > - Version number fixed at this point > - if something larger and release-blocking is discovered the > clock resets to zero once the problem is solved. > > 1 week before release: > - Stop any changes by Council except typos > - Announce beta release on TEI-L and point them to > lastSuccessfulArtifact on Jenkins > - Accept and correct any minor typos by public > - If anything more significant than a typo is raised that Council > determines is release-blocking, the whole process is frozen and > clock reset to zero once the problem is solved. > > 1 day before release: > - Final release notes agreed. > - Final date change > - Then SVN frozen entirely > > Day of release: > - No SVN changes, only release made > - Testing of Roma and related systems after release made, but > before announced. > - Announce release > > Improvements? > -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 08:43:52 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:43:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release Process In-Reply-To: <50F950EA.6030105@uvic.ca> References: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F950EA.6030105@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <1D45F6D4-6AD5-4E21-A902-59D5FA8F6689@it.ox.ac.uk> On 18 Jan 2013, at 13:40, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > > Watching the release process yesterday made me think again about using > git. If Council members could continue their schema-changing work in > their own forks, leaving the trunk unchanged, during the two-week > release period, we might have less instability. Then immediately after > release, they could merge their branches and let Jinks have at them. > nice idea, but don't most people rely on Jenkins to catch their little mistakes of validity etc? I'd happily work away in my fork, but I do all my testing on the command line - others need J's help. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 18 08:44:44 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 05:44:44 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Release Process In-Reply-To: <cb0be15f-1828-4242-9adc-a7f8e0afc10c@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> <cb0be15f-1828-4242-9adc-a7f8e0afc10c@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F951CC.5070201@uvic.ca> I wonder if it would be a good idea to run a test version of Roma on my Jinks box? People could then test schema generation during the RC testing period. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-18 04:56 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > i think yesterday would have passed without incident if I had not simultaneously tried to make stylesheet fixes, > so the "freeze all other changes and issue a public beta for a week" will deal with most situations. WHat it > would not catch is where the new release bites Roma or Oxgarage, as we don't have beta releases of those, > but thats not a likely attack vector. > > Just to stress that the traumatic hours yesterday were NOT caused by the new P5 release itself > breaking anything. it _looked_ like it broke Roma, but that was a delusion. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 18 08:48:02 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 05:48:02 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Release Process In-Reply-To: <1D45F6D4-6AD5-4E21-A902-59D5FA8F6689@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F950EA.6030105@uvic.ca> <1D45F6D4-6AD5-4E21-A902-59D5FA8F6689@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F95292.4030103@uvic.ca> On 13-01-18 05:43 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 18 Jan 2013, at 13:40, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote: >> >> Watching the release process yesterday made me think again about using >> git. If Council members could continue their schema-changing work in >> their own forks, leaving the trunk unchanged, during the two-week >> release period, we might have less instability. Then immediately after >> release, they could merge their branches and let Jinks have at them. >> > nice idea, but don't most people rely on Jenkins to catch > their little mistakes of validity etc? I'd happily work away in my fork, > but I do all my testing on the command line - others need > J's help. When I said "Council members", it was mainly you I was thinking of. :-) But most of us should be deployed typo-hunting during that period anyway. Enthusiastic folks can be shown how to do "make validate" on their local machine. Cheers, Martin > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 08:48:36 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:48:36 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release Process In-Reply-To: <50F951CC.5070201@uvic.ca> References: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> <cb0be15f-1828-4242-9adc-a7f8e0afc10c@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50F951CC.5070201@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <6AF9EA6E-64E4-4825-BFFC-21FF8E9179FE@it.ox.ac.uk> On 18 Jan 2013, at 13:44, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > I wonder if it would be a good idea to run a test version of Roma on my > Jinks box? People could then test schema generation during the RC > testing period. if your Jenkins took on the extra task of rebuilding the eXist database after each run, yes that would work. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 08:54:19 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:54:19 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release Process In-Reply-To: <50F95292.4030103@uvic.ca> References: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F950EA.6030105@uvic.ca> <1D45F6D4-6AD5-4E21-A902-59D5FA8F6689@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F95292.4030103@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <60E17F2C-D169-483B-B7AE-8CD6C7AD682F@it.ox.ac.uk> On 18 Jan 2013, at 13:48, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > > When I said "Council members", it was mainly you I was thinking of. :-) but forking the Guidelines doesn't solve the problem of me breaking the infrastructure XSL... -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 10:25:49 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:25:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Doodle Poll for Spring Council meeting In-Reply-To: <50F91B7D.3040806@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpe+vQ3zdeaB93SDGt08gvgAjzMmQPCBipm96sxnjEoh5A@mail.gmail.com> <50F8B4DE.4020702@ultraslavonic.info> <20728.54551.149284.749822@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F91B7D.3040806@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F9697D.9060302@kcl.ac.uk> If we did 10-12th, would Sebastian not be able to come at all, because of whatever's clashing on the 12th? I ask because if so, then 11-13th would be no worse, and would fix Hugh's clash... (And be one less day those of us who need to spend a Saturday night would have to stay extra at the end.) Would that work for Brown folks? On 2013-01-18 09:53, James Cummings wrote: > > Oops, I had missed this as well. > > So far looking like 10-12 is probably the least inconvenient for > the most people. > > -James > > > On 18/01/13 04:52, Syd Bauman wrote: >> Sorry, I didn't even notice the initial e-mail. Filled out now. >> >> It may be worth keeping in mind that other XMLers, particularly >> George and Radu from oXygen, will be in Providence for the DITA >> conference Mon 04-15 to Wed 04-17. (I haven't heard from Eliot Kimber >> yet.) George and Radu plan to stick around until Fri 04-19 or Sat >> 04-20. That's why I did not check that Thu and Fri -- Julia and I, >> and probably Elli, will likely be playing host to George and Radu for >> some or all of those days. They will probably be giving a show-and- >> tell or two. >> >>> I see disappointingly few responses to this poll. If the dates >>> haven't been chosen yet, perhaps the rest of you could indicate >>> your availability so we could settle on meeting dates? >> >>>> http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i > > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 10:36:30 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:36:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Doodle Poll for Spring Council meeting In-Reply-To: <50F9697D.9060302@kcl.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpe+vQ3zdeaB93SDGt08gvgAjzMmQPCBipm96sxnjEoh5A@mail.gmail.com> <50F8B4DE.4020702@ultraslavonic.info> <20728.54551.149284.749822@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F91B7D.3040806@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F9697D.9060302@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F96BFE.1010506@it.ox.ac.uk> I believe Elli offered just weekdays because it would be more difficult at weekends? That is my recollection, please do correct me if wrong! I'm free almost any time during that period. While I have a meeting on Monday 8 April, it probably won't miss me much. -James On 18/01/13 15:25, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > If we did 10-12th, would Sebastian not be able to come at all, because > of whatever's clashing on the 12th? I ask because if so, then 11-13th > would be no worse, and would fix Hugh's clash... > > (And be one less day those of us who need to spend a Saturday night > would have to stay extra at the end.) > > Would that work for Brown folks? > > On 2013-01-18 09:53, James Cummings wrote: >> >> Oops, I had missed this as well. >> >> So far looking like 10-12 is probably the least inconvenient for >> the most people. >> >> -James >> >> >> On 18/01/13 04:52, Syd Bauman wrote: >>> Sorry, I didn't even notice the initial e-mail. Filled out now. >>> >>> It may be worth keeping in mind that other XMLers, particularly >>> George and Radu from oXygen, will be in Providence for the DITA >>> conference Mon 04-15 to Wed 04-17. (I haven't heard from Eliot Kimber >>> yet.) George and Radu plan to stick around until Fri 04-19 or Sat >>> 04-20. That's why I did not check that Thu and Fri -- Julia and I, >>> and probably Elli, will likely be playing host to George and Radu for >>> some or all of those days. They will probably be giving a show-and- >>> tell or two. >>> >>>> I see disappointingly few responses to this poll. If the dates >>>> haven't been chosen yet, perhaps the rest of you could indicate >>>> your availability so we could settle on meeting dates? >>> >>>>> http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i >> >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 10:38:27 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:38:27 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Doodle Poll for Spring Council meeting In-Reply-To: <50F9697D.9060302@kcl.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpe+vQ3zdeaB93SDGt08gvgAjzMmQPCBipm96sxnjEoh5A@mail.gmail.com> <50F8B4DE.4020702@ultraslavonic.info> <20728.54551.149284.749822@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F91B7D.3040806@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F9697D.9060302@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <A6240A06-328C-4AC3-8F7D-97CF2FC90A9A@it.ox.ac.uk> On 18 Jan 2013, at 15:25, Gabriel Bodard <gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk> wrote: > If we did 10-12th, would Sebastian not be able to come at all, because > of whatever's clashing on the 12th? I ask because if so, then 11-13th > would be no worse, and would fix Hugh's clash... I have checked at home, and edited my entry. I can do April 12th, and Saturday 13th/Sunday 14th ok -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 10:53:00 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 15:53:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Doodle Poll for Spring Council meeting In-Reply-To: <A6240A06-328C-4AC3-8F7D-97CF2FC90A9A@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpe+vQ3zdeaB93SDGt08gvgAjzMmQPCBipm96sxnjEoh5A@mail.gmail.com> <50F8B4DE.4020702@ultraslavonic.info> <20728.54551.149284.749822@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F91B7D.3040806@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F9697D.9060302@kcl.ac.uk> <A6240A06-328C-4AC3-8F7D-97CF2FC90A9A@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F96FDC.50509@it.ox.ac.uk> Looks like 11-13th would be mostly fine, if Brown is able to offer space on the Saturday. (Of course ppl haven't indicated their availability on the Saturday, so maybe they can't.) -James On 18/01/13 15:38, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 18 Jan 2013, at 15:25, Gabriel Bodard <gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk> wrote: > >> If we did 10-12th, would Sebastian not be able to come at all, because >> of whatever's clashing on the 12th? I ask because if so, then 11-13th >> would be no worse, and would fix Hugh's clash... > > > I have checked at home, and edited my entry. I can do April 12th, and Saturday 13th/Sunday 14th ok > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 18 11:27:45 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:27:45 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Release Process In-Reply-To: <6AF9EA6E-64E4-4825-BFFC-21FF8E9179FE@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> <cb0be15f-1828-4242-9adc-a7f8e0afc10c@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50F951CC.5070201@uvic.ca> <6AF9EA6E-64E4-4825-BFFC-21FF8E9179FE@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F97801.1040706@uvic.ca> So I'd need: - Apache (already running) - PHP (not sure, have to check) - Roma version same as Oxford version - eXist (which version do you use?) - OxGarage (same version as Oxford and/or Virginia) How often do you update the Oxford Roma and the two OxGarages? This could also be used for beta-testing changes to Roma and OxGarage, independently of P5 or Stylesheet releases. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-18 05:48 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 18 Jan 2013, at 13:44, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote: > >> I wonder if it would be a good idea to run a test version of Roma on my >> Jinks box? People could then test schema generation during the RC >> testing period. > > > if your Jenkins took on the extra task of rebuilding the eXist database > after each run, yes that would work. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 18 11:29:52 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:29:52 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Release Process In-Reply-To: <60E17F2C-D169-483B-B7AE-8CD6C7AD682F@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F950EA.6030105@uvic.ca> <1D45F6D4-6AD5-4E21-A902-59D5FA8F6689@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F95292.4030103@uvic.ca> <60E17F2C-D169-483B-B7AE-8CD6C7AD682F@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F97880.4000209@uvic.ca> On 13-01-18 05:54 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 18 Jan 2013, at 13:48, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote: > >> >> When I said "Council members", it was mainly you I was thinking of. :-) > > but forking the Guidelines doesn't solve the problem of me > breaking the infrastructure XSL... It would, because your XSL hacking would take place in your own branch. Only minor bugfixes would be merged back into the main branch, so the builds of P5 would be using the trunk Stylesheets. Meanwhile, you could hack away to your heart's content in your own branch, and then merge it after the release. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 18 11:54:47 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:54:47 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Doodle Poll for Spring Council meeting In-Reply-To: <A6240A06-328C-4AC3-8F7D-97CF2FC90A9A@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpe+vQ3zdeaB93SDGt08gvgAjzMmQPCBipm96sxnjEoh5A@mail.gmail.com> <50F8B4DE.4020702@ultraslavonic.info> <20728.54551.149284.749822@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F91B7D.3040806@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F9697D.9060302@kcl.ac.uk> <A6240A06-328C-4AC3-8F7D-97CF2FC90A9A@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F97E57.9000509@uvic.ca> 11-13 would suit me better, because I could travel on the 10th. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-18 07:38 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 18 Jan 2013, at 15:25, Gabriel Bodard <gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk> wrote: > >> If we did 10-12th, would Sebastian not be able to come at all, because >> of whatever's clashing on the 12th? I ask because if so, then 11-13th >> would be no worse, and would fix Hugh's clash... > > > I have checked at home, and edited my entry. I can do April 12th, and Saturday 13th/Sunday 14th ok > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 12:05:19 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 17:05:19 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Release Process In-Reply-To: <50F97880.4000209@uvic.ca> References: <50F9206C.6010000@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F950EA.6030105@uvic.ca> <1D45F6D4-6AD5-4E21-A902-59D5FA8F6689@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F95292.4030103@uvic.ca> <60E17F2C-D169-483B-B7AE-8CD6C7AD682F@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F97880.4000209@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50F980CF.4010301@it.ox.ac.uk> On 18/01/13 16:29, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-01-18 05:54 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 18 Jan 2013, at 13:48, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> When I said "Council members", it was mainly you I was thinking of. :-) >> >> but forking the Guidelines doesn't solve the problem of me >> breaking the infrastructure XSL... > > It would, because your XSL hacking would take place in your own branch. > Only minor bugfixes would be merged back into the main branch, so the > builds of P5 would be using the trunk Stylesheets. Meanwhile, you could > hack away to your heart's content in your own branch, and then merge it > after the release. But this is true at the moment... He can and does hack away for quite awhile before committing back to the main branch. Just because he could use git and commit to his own local repository (which yes gets him the ability to roll back on his own fork), isn't much different from what happens with SVN. (Yes, I agree that him committing to his own fork and making that available and merging it back in later is better in principle... but remember that forking and branching can be done in SVN as well (just not as easily)). -James > > Cheers, > Martin > > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Fri Jan 18 13:49:32 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 13:49:32 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Doodle Poll for Spring Council meeting In-Reply-To: <50F96BFE.1010506@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpe+vQ3zdeaB93SDGt08gvgAjzMmQPCBipm96sxnjEoh5A@mail.gmail.com> <50F8B4DE.4020702@ultraslavonic.info> <20728.54551.149284.749822@emt.ad.brown.edu> <50F91B7D.3040806@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F9697D.9060302@kcl.ac.uk> <50F96BFE.1010506@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpdLa84AQFc0yAyS0jrhiubwVRoGkY07pJGg38h29tL2Gw@mail.gmail.com> I offered only weekdays because I understood that to be the preference. Also that probably one weekend day would be included. weekends are fine as far as I and scheduling is concerned. Better, I'd say for the room situation! --elli [Elli Mylonas Senior Digital Humanities Librarian and Center for Digital Scholarship University Library Brown University library.brown.edu/cds] On Fri, Jan 18, 2013 at 10:36 AM, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > I believe Elli offered just weekdays because it would be more > difficult at weekends? That is my recollection, please do > correct me if wrong! I'm free almost any time during that period. > While I have a meeting on Monday 8 April, it probably won't miss > me much. > > -James > > > > On 18/01/13 15:25, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> If we did 10-12th, would Sebastian not be able to come at all, because >> of whatever's clashing on the 12th? I ask because if so, then 11-13th >> would be no worse, and would fix Hugh's clash... >> >> (And be one less day those of us who need to spend a Saturday night >> would have to stay extra at the end.) >> >> Would that work for Brown folks? >> >> On 2013-01-18 09:53, James Cummings wrote: >>> >>> Oops, I had missed this as well. >>> >>> So far looking like 10-12 is probably the least inconvenient for >>> the most people. >>> >>> -James >>> >>> >>> On 18/01/13 04:52, Syd Bauman wrote: >>>> Sorry, I didn't even notice the initial e-mail. Filled out now. >>>> >>>> It may be worth keeping in mind that other XMLers, particularly >>>> George and Radu from oXygen, will be in Providence for the DITA >>>> conference Mon 04-15 to Wed 04-17. (I haven't heard from Eliot Kimber >>>> yet.) George and Radu plan to stick around until Fri 04-19 or Sat >>>> 04-20. That's why I did not check that Thu and Fri -- Julia and I, >>>> and probably Elli, will likely be playing host to George and Radu for >>>> some or all of those days. They will probably be giving a show-and- >>>> tell or two. >>>> >>>>> I see disappointingly few responses to this poll. If the dates >>>>> haven't been chosen yet, perhaps the rest of you could indicate >>>>> your availability so we could settle on meeting dates? >>>> >>>>>> http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i >>> >>> >> > > > -- > Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 18 14:26:15 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:26:15 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Prefixing ids with "tei_" Message-ID: <50F9A1D7.20505@uvic.ca> Hi all, I've been working on this long-standing ticket (<http://purl.org/TEI/BUGS/3472477>) to add a "tei_" prefix to all ids and pointers in the Guidelines build, to avoid having adblock tools hide divs because of accidental collisions of id with known ad ids. This proves to be way more difficult than you'd think, but I have managed something: <http://web.uvic.ca/lancenrd/martin/guidelines/index.html> (No images are there, just the text pages.) I'm doing this by pre-processing the p5.xml file to add the prefix throughout, before passing the result to the guidelines processing xsl. There are some changes to the guidelines.xsl.model to make it work, but no changes to other stylesheets. The wrinkle is that I can't find a way to do just the in-page ids; I have to do the page filenames as well, because @xml:ids are intimately tied up with chapter page names. So where before we had SD.html, we now have tei_SD.html. This will be annoying to people who have bookmarked pages in the guidelines, but it could be mitigated by redirects. If this change is unacceptable, then I think I'll have to give up on this approach, and go for post-processing the Guidelines pages after they're generated. I think that will add more time to the build than the pre-processing approach. Let me know what you think. It may be that this whole idea is not worth the trouble. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 14:29:35 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:29:35 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Prefixing ids with "tei_" In-Reply-To: <50F9A1D7.20505@uvic.ca> References: <50F9A1D7.20505@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50F9A29F.1030703@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 18/01/13 19:26, Martin Holmes wrote: >> The wrinkle is that I can't find a way to do just the in-page ids; I > have to do the page filenames as well, because @xml:ids are intimately > tied up with chapter page names. So where before we had SD.html, we now > have tei_SD.html. This will be annoying to people who have bookmarked > pages in the guidelines, but it could be mitigated by redirects. I think that's very annoying. It's also feature-creep -- we embarked on the idea of modifying the IDs because they're transparent, but the page identifiers are not. > > If this change is unacceptable, then I think I'll have to give up on > this approach, and go for post-processing the Guidelines pages after > they're generated. I think that will add more time to the build than the > pre-processing approach. really? > > Let me know what you think. It may be that this whole idea is not worth > the trouble. It's never seemed worth the effort to me, to tell the truth. We had one problem, which we solved without going to these lengths. From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 18 14:37:24 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:37:24 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Prefixing ids with "tei_" In-Reply-To: <50F9A29F.1030703@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F9A1D7.20505@uvic.ca> <50F9A29F.1030703@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50F9A474.7000304@uvic.ca> Hi Lou On 13-01-18 11:29 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 18/01/13 19:26, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> The wrinkle is that I can't find a way to do just the in-page ids; I >> have to do the page filenames as well, because @xml:ids are intimately >> tied up with chapter page names. So where before we had SD.html, we now >> have tei_SD.html. This will be annoying to people who have bookmarked >> pages in the guidelines, but it could be mitigated by redirects. > > I think that's very annoying. It's also feature-creep -- we embarked on > the idea of modifying the IDs because they're transparent, but the page > identifiers are not. I know. I don't like it myself. >> If this change is unacceptable, then I think I'll have to give up on >> this approach, and go for post-processing the Guidelines pages after >> they're generated. I think that will add more time to the build than the >> pre-processing approach. > > really? I think so, because visiting every @xml:id, @target and @corresp in the source amounts to less work than visiting every @id and @href in the output; we generate many more links in processing than are explicitly there in the source. Also, processing the source amounts to processing a single file (p5.xml -> p5_prefixed.xml), whereas to process the output would require processing every html page. >> Let me know what you think. It may be that this whole idea is not worth >> the trouble. > > It's never seemed worth the effort to me, to tell the truth. We had one > problem, which we solved without going to these lengths. AFAIK, the problem is still there with at least one adblock list: the Fanboy list developers completely ignored our requests for a change. However, their list looks like it's moribund -- no updates since August. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 14:59:22 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:59:22 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Prefixing ids with "tei_" In-Reply-To: <50F9A474.7000304@uvic.ca> References: <50F9A1D7.20505@uvic.ca> <50F9A29F.1030703@retired.ox.ac.uk>,<50F9A474.7000304@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <dqlgk4fucntqne5oyewkjoe8.1358539144711@email.android.com> Explain to me again why this isn't a one-off task where we run through the existing guidelines and prefix IDs and ptr and such? Then save them back to svn? I'm sure you explained it to me before but I've evidently forgotten. (About to watch Jeremy Hardy do standup) JamesC Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: Hi Lou On 13-01-18 11:29 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 18/01/13 19:26, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> The wrinkle is that I can't find a way to do just the in-page ids; I >> have to do the page filenames as well, because @xml:ids are intimately >> tied up with chapter page names. So where before we had SD.html, we now >> have tei_SD.html. This will be annoying to people who have bookmarked >> pages in the guidelines, but it could be mitigated by redirects. > > I think that's very annoying. It's also feature-creep -- we embarked on > the idea of modifying the IDs because they're transparent, but the page > identifiers are not. I know. I don't like it myself. >> If this change is unacceptable, then I think I'll have to give up on >> this approach, and go for post-processing the Guidelines pages after >> they're generated. I think that will add more time to the build than the >> pre-processing approach. > > really? I think so, because visiting every @xml:id, @target and @corresp in the source amounts to less work than visiting every @id and @href in the output; we generate many more links in processing than are explicitly there in the source. Also, processing the source amounts to processing a single file (p5.xml -> p5_prefixed.xml), whereas to process the output would require processing every html page. >> Let me know what you think. It may be that this whole idea is not worth >> the trouble. > > It's never seemed worth the effort to me, to tell the truth. We had one > problem, which we solved without going to these lengths. AFAIK, the problem is still there with at least one adblock list: the Fanboy list developers completely ignored our requests for a change. However, their list looks like it's moribund -- no updates since August. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 18 15:08:01 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 12:08:01 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Prefixing ids with "tei_" In-Reply-To: <dqlgk4fucntqne5oyewkjoe8.1358539144711@email.android.com> References: <50F9A1D7.20505@uvic.ca> <50F9A29F.1030703@retired.ox.ac.uk>, <50F9A474.7000304@uvic.ca> <dqlgk4fucntqne5oyewkjoe8.1358539144711@email.android.com> Message-ID: <50F9ABA1.3080104@uvic.ca> On 13-01-18 11:59 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > Explain to me again why this isn't a one-off task where we run > through the existing guidelines and prefix IDs and ptr and such? Then > save them back to svn? > > I'm sure you explained it to me before but I've evidently forgotten. I never thought that was what the task was. My assumption was that everyone wanted to keep the same ids (which are nice and short) throughout the source, and only change them when rendering the guidelines for the web, because it's only in the HTML output that this particular issue occurs; no reason presumably to burden the ePub output (for instance) with hundreds of longer ids. I was following an approach Sebastian suggested in going the pre-processing route. If it turns out to be a waste of time, at least I've been looking at the stylesheet source for a couple of hours, which won't do me any harm. > (About to watch Jeremy Hardy do standup) Wot, live? Cheers, Martin > > > JamesC > > Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > > > Hi Lou > > On 13-01-18 11:29 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> On 18/01/13 19:26, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> The wrinkle is that I can't find a way to do just the in-page >>>> ids; I >>> have to do the page filenames as well, because @xml:ids are >>> intimately tied up with chapter page names. So where before we >>> had SD.html, we now have tei_SD.html. This will be annoying to >>> people who have bookmarked pages in the guidelines, but it could >>> be mitigated by redirects. >> >> I think that's very annoying. It's also feature-creep -- we >> embarked on the idea of modifying the IDs because they're >> transparent, but the page identifiers are not. > > I know. I don't like it myself. > >>> If this change is unacceptable, then I think I'll have to give up >>> on this approach, and go for post-processing the Guidelines pages >>> after they're generated. I think that will add more time to the >>> build than the pre-processing approach. >> >> really? > > I think so, because visiting every @xml:id, @target and @corresp in > the source amounts to less work than visiting every @id and @href in > the output; we generate many more links in processing than are > explicitly there in the source. Also, processing the source amounts > to processing a single file (p5.xml -> p5_prefixed.xml), whereas to > process the output would require processing every html page. > >>> Let me know what you think. It may be that this whole idea is not >>> worth the trouble. >> >> It's never seemed worth the effort to me, to tell the truth. We had >> one problem, which we solved without going to these lengths. > > AFAIK, the problem is still there with at least one adblock list: > the Fanboy list developers completely ignored our requests for a > change. However, their list looks like it's moribund -- no updates > since August. > > Cheers, Martin > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and > Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) -- tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived . > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 17:21:10 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2013 22:21:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Prefixing ids with "tei_" In-Reply-To: <50F9ABA1.3080104@uvic.ca> References: <50F9A1D7.20505@uvic.ca> <50F9A29F.1030703@retired.ox.ac.uk>, <50F9A474.7000304@uvic.ca> <dqlgk4fucntqne5oyewkjoe8.1358539144711@email.android.com> <50F9ABA1.3080104@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50F9CAD6.5010002@it.ox.ac.uk> On 18/01/13 20:08, Martin Holmes wrote: > I never thought that was what the task was. My assumption was that > everyone wanted to keep the same ids (which are nice and short) > throughout the source, and only change them when rendering the > guidelines for the web, because it's only in the HTML output that this > particular issue occurs; no reason presumably to burden the ePub output > (for instance) with hundreds of longer ids. Hrmmm... I think that is an assumption. I don't care one iota what the ids actually are... I never look at them really (just use them in a variety of ways). If processing the Guidelines once and using slightly longer ids would solve the problem once and for all (and just add the rule that all our ids start with tei_) then fair enough... that doesn't bother me really. >> (About to watch Jeremy Hardy do standup) > Wot, live? Yes, best way. He was very good, thought provoking yet funny. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Sat Jan 19 11:07:38 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2013 08:07:38 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Prefixing ids with "tei_" In-Reply-To: <50F9CAD6.5010002@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F9A1D7.20505@uvic.ca> <50F9A29F.1030703@retired.ox.ac.uk>, <50F9A474.7000304@uvic.ca> <dqlgk4fucntqne5oyewkjoe8.1358539144711@email.android.com> <50F9ABA1.3080104@uvic.ca> <50F9CAD6.5010002@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50FAC4CA.30502@uvic.ca> On 13-01-18 02:21 PM, James Cummings wrote: > On 18/01/13 20:08, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I never thought that was what the task was. My assumption was that >> everyone wanted to keep the same ids (which are nice and short) >> throughout the source, and only change them when rendering the >> guidelines for the web, because it's only in the HTML output that this >> particular issue occurs; no reason presumably to burden the ePub output >> (for instance) with hundreds of longer ids. > > Hrmmm... I think that is an assumption. I don't care one iota > what the ids actually are... I never look at them really (just > use them in a variety of ways). If processing the Guidelines > once and using slightly longer ids would solve the problem once > and for all (and just add the rule that all our ids start with > tei_) then fair enough... that doesn't bother me really. Does anyone else think this is worthwhile? Unless there's a chorus of ayes, I think I'm going to close this ticket without further action. Cheers, Martin From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 20 12:26:02 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:26:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Prefixing ids with "tei_" In-Reply-To: <50F9CAD6.5010002@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F9A1D7.20505@uvic.ca> <50F9A29F.1030703@retired.ox.ac.uk>, <50F9A474.7000304@uvic.ca> <dqlgk4fucntqne5oyewkjoe8.1358539144711@email.android.com> <50F9ABA1.3080104@uvic.ca> <50F9CAD6.5010002@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <C0C9DBF5-A448-4BAE-814B-54CB3610B1A1@it.ox.ac.uk> i am afraid I think the disadvantages of the prefixing outweigh the advantages, whatever method is used. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 20 13:02:36 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 18:02:36 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] streamlining release procedures Message-ID: <B74FE597-2C37-4A87-B137-671C927ED4D8@it.ox.ac.uk> After the lengthy delays on Thursday night, I spent some time trying to make the beastly process of building TEI P5 go faster. Some things I can't help (like the ever-damned Amazon "kindlegen" programme, and TeX), but rearranging and grouping jobs, avoiding duplication, and profilng XSL has taken the build down to nearer 35 minutes than the hour or more previously. Still, there are limits. We make over 21000 HTML files as part of the process, and that is always going to be slow. anyway, changes submitted, last run on tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk timed at 35 minutes. hurrah. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Jan 20 13:16:22 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 10:16:22 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] streamlining release procedures In-Reply-To: <B74FE597-2C37-4A87-B137-671C927ED4D8@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <B74FE597-2C37-4A87-B137-671C927ED4D8@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50FC3476.1090800@uvic.ca> Wonderful work by Sebastian! My Jinks, which doesn't do kindlegen (nasty closed-source proprietary etc. etc.) is down to 23 minutes. But I think we'll end up putting kindlegen on mine eventually, because otherwise it's not a true alternative source for our products. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-20 10:02 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > After the lengthy delays on Thursday night, I spent some time trying to make the > beastly process of building TEI P5 go faster. Some things I can't help > (like the ever-damned Amazon "kindlegen" programme, and TeX), but > rearranging and grouping jobs, avoiding duplication, and profilng XSL > has taken the build down to nearer 35 minutes than the hour or more > previously. Still, there are limits. We make over 21000 HTML files > as part of the process, and that is always going to be slow. > > anyway, changes submitted, last run on tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk timed at 35 minutes. > hurrah. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 20 13:37:36 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 18:37:36 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] streamlining release procedures In-Reply-To: <50FC3476.1090800@uvic.ca> References: <B74FE597-2C37-4A87-B137-671C927ED4D8@it.ox.ac.uk> <50FC3476.1090800@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5001463A-A08E-4A38-8A90-EB49AE57694E@it.ox.ac.uk> On 20 Jan 2013, at 18:16, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > My Jinks, which doesn't do kindlegen (nasty closed-source proprietary > etc. etc.) is down to 23 minutes. I could get it down still further if the people who do Debian would upgrade their version of ant to 1.8.2 from 1.8.0. Sounds small, doesn't it, but it is significant. The 1.8.2 allows us to run jing and trang (which makes xsd and rnc formats) from within ant, like it oughta, and avoid the overhead of stopping and starting Java all the time. When you're making loads of Exemplar schemas, this matters. i bet some of you are thinking "oh do go away and stop being so nerdy"..... -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Jan 20 14:26:32 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 11:26:32 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] streamlining release procedures In-Reply-To: <5001463A-A08E-4A38-8A90-EB49AE57694E@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <B74FE597-2C37-4A87-B137-671C927ED4D8@it.ox.ac.uk> <50FC3476.1090800@uvic.ca> <5001463A-A08E-4A38-8A90-EB49AE57694E@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <50FC44E8.6000608@uvic.ca> Ant is 1.8.2 on my Jinks server (Ubuntu 12.04), but only 1.8.0 on my Lucid (10.04) desktop. In Debian sid it's 1.8.2 (<http://packages.debian.org/sid/ant>). Is it essential to support squeeze? Cheers, Martin On 13-01-20 10:37 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 20 Jan 2013, at 18:16, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote: >> My Jinks, which doesn't do kindlegen (nasty closed-source proprietary >> etc. etc.) is down to 23 minutes. > > I could get it down still further if the people who do Debian > would upgrade their version of ant to 1.8.2 from 1.8.0. > Sounds small, doesn't it, but it is significant. The 1.8.2 allows us > to run jing and trang (which makes xsd and rnc formats) from within > ant, like it oughta, and avoid the overhead of stopping > and starting Java all the time. When you're making loads of Exemplar > schemas, this matters. > > i bet some of you are thinking "oh do go away and stop > being so nerdy"..... > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Jan 20 15:10:47 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 12:10:47 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] streamlining release procedures In-Reply-To: <50FC4106.1010509@uvic.ca> References: <B74FE597-2C37-4A87-B137-671C927ED4D8@it.ox.ac.uk> <50FC3476.1090800@uvic.ca> <50FC3704.6020605@ultraslavonic.info> <50FC4106.1010509@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50FC4F47.4010502@uvic.ca> Over an hour ago, I started Calibre at the command line converting the latest ePub version of the Glines to mobi. It's still running. So we may be stuck with kindlegen. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-20 11:09 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > That's a great idea. I'm running a conversion right now using the > command-line Calibre ebook-convert, from the latest ePub build on Jinks, > and I'll post the resulting .mobi to the web so people with Kindles can > test it. (I don't have access to one.) > > It's taking a few minutes, and it's already thrown up a few errors, but > they don't look like show-stoppers (complaints about webkit-prefixed CSS > properties etc.). > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-01-20 10:27 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> What if we replace kindlegen with calibre? While it doesn't produce PRC >> as an output format, it can do MOBI and the newer Kindle formats: >> >> http://manual.calibre-ebook.com/faq.html#what-formats-does-app-support-conversion-to-from >> >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Format_support_by_device >> >> --Kevin >> >> On 1/20/13 1:16 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> Wonderful work by Sebastian! >>> >>> My Jinks, which doesn't do kindlegen (nasty closed-source proprietary >>> etc. etc.) is down to 23 minutes. But I think we'll end up putting >>> kindlegen on mine eventually, because otherwise it's not a true >>> alternative source for our products. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-01-20 10:02 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>> Some things I can't help >>>> (like the ever-damned Amazon "kindlegen" programme, and TeX) From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Jan 20 15:39:59 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 12:39:59 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] streamlining release procedures In-Reply-To: <50FC4F47.4010502@uvic.ca> References: <B74FE597-2C37-4A87-B137-671C927ED4D8@it.ox.ac.uk> <50FC3476.1090800@uvic.ca> <50FC3704.6020605@ultraslavonic.info> <50FC4106.1010509@uvic.ca> <50FC4F47.4010502@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <50FC561F.90300@uvic.ca> OK, the Calibre build of .mobi is here: <http://web.uvic.ca/lancenrd/martin/guidelines/Guidelines.mobi> Can someone with a Kindle give it a try? It took about an hour and a half to build. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-20 12:10 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > Over an hour ago, I started Calibre at the command line converting the > latest ePub version of the Glines to mobi. It's still running. > > So we may be stuck with kindlegen. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-01-20 11:09 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> That's a great idea. I'm running a conversion right now using the >> command-line Calibre ebook-convert, from the latest ePub build on Jinks, >> and I'll post the resulting .mobi to the web so people with Kindles can >> test it. (I don't have access to one.) >> >> It's taking a few minutes, and it's already thrown up a few errors, but >> they don't look like show-stoppers (complaints about webkit-prefixed CSS >> properties etc.). >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-01-20 10:27 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> What if we replace kindlegen with calibre? While it doesn't produce PRC >>> as an output format, it can do MOBI and the newer Kindle formats: >>> >>> http://manual.calibre-ebook.com/faq.html#what-formats-does-app-support-conversion-to-from >>> >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle#Format_support_by_device >>> >>> --Kevin >>> >>> On 1/20/13 1:16 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> Wonderful work by Sebastian! >>>> >>>> My Jinks, which doesn't do kindlegen (nasty closed-source proprietary >>>> etc. etc.) is down to 23 minutes. But I think we'll end up putting >>>> kindlegen on mine eventually, because otherwise it's not a true >>>> alternative source for our products. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On 13-01-20 10:02 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>>> Some things I can't help >>>>> (like the ever-damned Amazon "kindlegen" programme, and TeX) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 23 09:43:03 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:43:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sex, gender, and http://purl.org/tei/fr/3601624 Message-ID: <50FFF6F7.3050900@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi TEI Council, A number of people on twitter pointed out that our use of ISO 5218 for the data.sex datatype. Melissa Terras has since submitted a feature request asking us to re-examine this at http://purl.org/tei/fr/3601624. I won't repeat the whole discussion on the ticket, please go and read it there, but simply summarise the basic problem and encourage you to read and comment on the ticket itself. As you may know @sex and tei:sex/@value are a TEI datatype 'data.sex' which implements ISO 5218 which is a recommendation for single-digit representations of sex. This has 0, 1, 2, and 9. With male coded as '1' and female coded as '2'. Some believe that this represents a deeply-rooted patriarchal system that implies that women are somehow secondary to men. The standard itself explicitly states that no such implication is intended and it was simply codifying existing practice amongst member states. (Countries seemed to use odd/even numbers or 1 / 2.) The TEI moved away from a system of 'm', 'f', 'u, and 'x' used in P4 when developing P5 partly because this standard existed (and where ISO standards exist for things we are modelling we try to use them if appropriate), and partly because values like 'm' and 'f' are generally anglo-centric. However, it has been pointed out that this might be interpreted as inherent support for this patriarchal worldview. I'm quite confident that the TEI does not want to cause offence to any of its users but needs to balance that against providing a robust and rigorous scheme. One solution is to retain our use of ISO 5218 but note on the data.sex reference page the offence that may be caused and possibly propose alternatives. One such alternative is the use of @ana to point to one or more categories in a local or remote taxonomy, with the benefits of being able to categorise multiple vectors (e.g. biological sex vs gender vs sexual identity vs allSortsOfOtherThings), but with the drawback that it is not a simple international standard. I don't believe the TEI itself should propose this taxonomy because I feel it may be too culturally-specific. If you have (appropriate) thoughts on this issue please post them on the ticket http://purl.org/tei/fr/3601624. Many thanks, -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Jan 23 17:03:17 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:03:17 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Visualization of our work in SVN Message-ID: <51005E25.1080106@uvic.ca> I just discovered the amazing app gource, and generated this visualization with it: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGWBGufBbD8> It shows all our work in SVN between the release of P5 2.2 and 2.3. I'm going to experiment a bit more when I get a chance and see if I can make the components larger. It's kind of mesmerizing. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed Jan 23 17:16:04 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 17:16:04 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Visualization of our work in SVN In-Reply-To: <51005E25.1080106@uvic.ca> References: <51005E25.1080106@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51006124.3010103@ultraslavonic.info> Cool. What are the x and y dimensions? Or, rather, what does distance from the center signify? On 1/23/2013 5:03 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > I just discovered the amazing app gource, and generated this > visualization with it: > > <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGWBGufBbD8> > > It shows all our work in SVN between the release of P5 2.2 and 2.3. I'm > going to experiment a bit more when I get a chance and see if I can make > the components larger. It's kind of mesmerizing. > > Cheers, > Martin From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Jan 23 18:05:19 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:05:19 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Visualization of our work in SVN In-Reply-To: <51006124.3010103@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51005E25.1080106@uvic.ca> <51006124.3010103@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51006CAF.2050503@uvic.ca> On 13-01-23 02:16 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Cool. What are the x and y dimensions? Or, rather, what does distance > from the center signify? I don't actually know -- I think it just distributes things at distances that keep them from bouncing into each other. Cheers, Martin > > On 1/23/2013 5:03 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I just discovered the amazing app gource, and generated this >> visualization with it: >> >> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGWBGufBbD8> >> >> It shows all our work in SVN between the release of P5 2.2 and 2.3. I'm >> going to experiment a bit more when I get a chance and see if I can make >> the components larger. It's kind of mesmerizing. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 04:25:38 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:25:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Visualization of our work in SVN In-Reply-To: <51006CAF.2050503@uvic.ca> References: <51005E25.1080106@uvic.ca> <51006124.3010103@ultraslavonic.info> <51006CAF.2050503@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5100FE12.6090707@it.ox.ac.uk> You may wish to mention it on TEI-L ... anything that shows that we do indeed work (and in this case I notice work intensifies as we approach release date) is a good thing to communicate. -James On 23/01/13 23:05, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-01-23 02:16 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> Cool. What are the x and y dimensions? Or, rather, what does distance >> from the center signify? > > I don't actually know -- I think it just distributes things at distances > that keep them from bouncing into each other. > > Cheers, > Martin > >> >> On 1/23/2013 5:03 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> I just discovered the amazing app gource, and generated this >>> visualization with it: >>> >>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGWBGufBbD8> >>> >>> It shows all our work in SVN between the release of P5 2.2 and 2.3. I'm >>> going to experiment a bit more when I get a chance and see if I can make >>> the components larger. It's kind of mesmerizing. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 06:22:02 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 11:22:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Visualization of our work in SVN In-Reply-To: <5100FE12.6090707@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51005E25.1080106@uvic.ca> <51006124.3010103@ultraslavonic.info> <51006CAF.2050503@uvic.ca> <5100FE12.6090707@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5101195A.6060704@kcl.ac.uk> The one thing I imagine a regular visualization like this is likely to achieve, even if no one other than us looks at it, is shame many of us into committing work on the odd and gls more often. :-) It's strangely fascinating. Is there an option to add laser beam and warp engine sound effects? On 2013-01-24 09:25, James Cummings wrote: > > You may wish to mention it on TEI-L ... anything that shows that > we do indeed work (and in this case I notice work intensifies as > we approach release date) is a good thing to communicate. > > -James > > On 23/01/13 23:05, Martin Holmes wrote: >> On 13-01-23 02:16 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> Cool. What are the x and y dimensions? Or, rather, what does distance >>> from the center signify? >> >> I don't actually know -- I think it just distributes things at distances >> that keep them from bouncing into each other. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >>> >>> On 1/23/2013 5:03 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> I just discovered the amazing app gource, and generated this >>>> visualization with it: >>>> >>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGWBGufBbD8> >>>> >>>> It shows all our work in SVN between the release of P5 2.2 and 2.3. I'm >>>> going to experiment a bit more when I get a chance and see if I can make >>>> the components larger. It's kind of mesmerizing. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >> > > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jan 24 08:50:09 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 05:50:09 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Visualization of our work in SVN In-Reply-To: <5101195A.6060704@kcl.ac.uk> References: <51005E25.1080106@uvic.ca> <51006124.3010103@ultraslavonic.info> <51006CAF.2050503@uvic.ca> <5100FE12.6090707@it.ox.ac.uk> <5101195A.6060704@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51013C11.1070502@uvic.ca> On 13-01-24 03:22 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > The one thing I imagine a regular visualization like this is likely to > achieve, even if no one other than us looks at it, is shame many of us > into committing work on the odd and gls more often. :-) > > It's strangely fascinating. Is there an option to add laser beam and > warp engine sound effects? No audio options, unfortunately, but we could write a soundtrack for it. Shall I raise a ticket? Cheers, Martin > > On 2013-01-24 09:25, James Cummings wrote: >> >> You may wish to mention it on TEI-L ... anything that shows that >> we do indeed work (and in this case I notice work intensifies as >> we approach release date) is a good thing to communicate. >> >> -James >> >> On 23/01/13 23:05, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> On 13-01-23 02:16 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>> Cool. What are the x and y dimensions? Or, rather, what does distance >>>> from the center signify? >>> >>> I don't actually know -- I think it just distributes things at distances >>> that keep them from bouncing into each other. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>>> >>>> On 1/23/2013 5:03 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>> I just discovered the amazing app gource, and generated this >>>>> visualization with it: >>>>> >>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGWBGufBbD8> >>>>> >>>>> It shows all our work in SVN between the release of P5 2.2 and 2.3. I'm >>>>> going to experiment a bit more when I get a chance and see if I can make >>>>> the components larger. It's kind of mesmerizing. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Martin >>> >> >> > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 08:54:04 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:54:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] automated oxygen update Message-ID: <BA311350-EBE3-427A-9563-CFB09B593CC6@it.ox.ac.uk> if you use oXygen, try using an experimental TEI framework add-on. a) Go to Preferences Document Type Associations and untick all the existing TEI things b) Go to Preferences/add-ons and add http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/updateSite.xml c) go to Help/Manage add-ons and install the "tei" one all being well, you'll get tei 2.3.0 locally note that you only need to a) once, and that from now on you'll get automatic updates (assuming we keep the updateSite.xml up to date) obviously we need a proper canonical location for the XML file, and procedures to keep it up to date, but I thought it might be helpful if a few people tested it first. if we get this right, I'd say its a considerably good thing?.. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 08:55:52 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:55:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Visualization of our work in SVN In-Reply-To: <51013C11.1070502@uvic.ca> References: <51005E25.1080106@uvic.ca> <51006124.3010103@ultraslavonic.info> <51006CAF.2050503@uvic.ca> <5100FE12.6090707@it.ox.ac.uk> <5101195A.6060704@kcl.ac.uk> <51013C11.1070502@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <6BF13437-61E2-410A-9138-239033ECE930@it.ox.ac.uk> On 24 Jan 2013, at 13:50, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: >> The one thing I imagine a regular visualization like this is likely to >> achieve, even if no one other than us looks at it, is shame many of us >> into committing work on the odd and gls more often. :-) >> >> It's strangely fascinating. Is there an option to add laser beam and >> warp engine sound effects? > > No audio options, unfortunately, but we could write a soundtrack for it. > Shall I raise a ticket? you need to make a racket, not raise a ticket the Blue Danube waltz would take me back to my youth watching 2001 i suppose -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 08:56:29 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:56:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] automated oxygen update In-Reply-To: <BA311350-EBE3-427A-9563-CFB09B593CC6@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <BA311350-EBE3-427A-9563-CFB09B593CC6@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1DB8037D-047C-4E75-B152-13FBD13CAB36@it.ox.ac.uk> On 24 Jan 2013, at 13:54, Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/updateSite.xml i meant http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/updateSite.oxygen of course -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 09:05:49 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:05:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Visualization of our work in SVN In-Reply-To: <51013C11.1070502@uvic.ca> References: <51005E25.1080106@uvic.ca> <51006124.3010103@ultraslavonic.info> <51006CAF.2050503@uvic.ca> <5100FE12.6090707@it.ox.ac.uk> <5101195A.6060704@kcl.ac.uk> <51013C11.1070502@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <4048B218-E92F-403A-9B44-7EE68C934D8E@it.ox.ac.uk> one really good commit every 6 months is worth a thousand flashes in the pan from late night commits (I speak as one who over-commits?.) -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From philomousos at gmail.com Thu Jan 24 09:37:30 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 09:37:30 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Visualization of our work in SVN In-Reply-To: <51013C11.1070502@uvic.ca> References: <51005E25.1080106@uvic.ca> <51006124.3010103@ultraslavonic.info> <51006CAF.2050503@uvic.ca> <5100FE12.6090707@it.ox.ac.uk> <5101195A.6060704@kcl.ac.uk> <51013C11.1070502@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <D12DB2F2-F303-4D20-910E-64796CB44C04@gmail.com> I nominate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um4TrbU2Eic On Jan 24, 2013, at 8:50 , Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > On 13-01-24 03:22 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> The one thing I imagine a regular visualization like this is likely to >> achieve, even if no one other than us looks at it, is shame many of us >> into committing work on the odd and gls more often. :-) >> >> It's strangely fascinating. Is there an option to add laser beam and >> warp engine sound effects? > > No audio options, unfortunately, but we could write a soundtrack for it. > Shall I raise a ticket? > > Cheers, > Martin > >> >> On 2013-01-24 09:25, James Cummings wrote: >>> >>> You may wish to mention it on TEI-L ... anything that shows that >>> we do indeed work (and in this case I notice work intensifies as >>> we approach release date) is a good thing to communicate. >>> >>> -James >>> >>> On 23/01/13 23:05, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> On 13-01-23 02:16 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>>> Cool. What are the x and y dimensions? Or, rather, what does distance >>>>> from the center signify? >>>> >>>> I don't actually know -- I think it just distributes things at distances >>>> that keep them from bouncing into each other. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 1/23/2013 5:03 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>>> I just discovered the amazing app gource, and generated this >>>>>> visualization with it: >>>>>> >>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGWBGufBbD8> >>>>>> >>>>>> It shows all our work in SVN between the release of P5 2.2 and 2.3. I'm >>>>>> going to experiment a bit more when I get a chance and see if I can make >>>>>> the components larger. It's kind of mesmerizing. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Martin >>>> >>> >>> >> > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 10:24:53 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:24:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] automated oxygen update In-Reply-To: <BA311350-EBE3-427A-9563-CFB09B593CC6@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <BA311350-EBE3-427A-9563-CFB09B593CC6@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51015245.4040309@it.ox.ac.uk> Things I notice: a) We should check what version of oxygen this will work with (I think 14.*+ ?) b) The licence is wrong...it says CC by-sa when it should only by CC by. c) The add-on isn't 'signed' perhaps we should do that if releasing publicly? It appears to work though, after restart of oXygen. At least I got @unit on <biblScope>, which I believe was new, right? -James On 24/01/13 13:54, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > if you use oXygen, try using an experimental TEI framework add-on. > > a) Go to Preferences Document Type Associations and untick all the existing TEI things > b) Go to Preferences/add-ons and add http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/updateSite.xml > c) go to Help/Manage add-ons and install the "tei" one > > all being well, you'll get tei 2.3.0 locally > > note that you only need to a) once, and that from now on you'll get automatic updates > (assuming we keep the updateSite.xml up to date) > > obviously we need a proper canonical location for the XML file, and procedures > to keep it up to date, but I thought it might be helpful if a few people tested it first. > > if we get this right, I'd say its a considerably good thing?.. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 10:32:39 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 15:32:39 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] automated oxygen update In-Reply-To: <51015245.4040309@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <BA311350-EBE3-427A-9563-CFB09B593CC6@it.ox.ac.uk> <51015245.4040309@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5eced7bc-70ca-4134-9cc4-73c0a8a34f16@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 24 Jan 2013, at 15:24, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > > Things I notice: > > a) We should check what version of oxygen this will work with (I > think 14.*+ ?) correct. > b) The licence is wrong...it says CC by-sa when it should only by > CC by. thats taken from COPYING.txt, can you change that? > c) The add-on isn't 'signed' perhaps we should do that if > releasing publicly? > yes, but signed by who? > It appears to work though, after restart of oXygen. At least I > got @unit on <biblScope>, which I believe was new, right? > or if you see <media> I have added the XML file to P5, so anyone can edit it, by the way. If we go with it, that means an extra stanza in the Release manual (or maybe not, can probably be automated) -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 11:11:33 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:11:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] automated oxygen update In-Reply-To: <850DCFFE-6E4C-419F-BCF3-49864B2457BE@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <BA311350-EBE3-427A-9563-CFB09B593CC6@it.ox.ac.uk> <51015245.4040309@it.ox.ac.uk> <850DCFFE-6E4C-419F-BCF3-49864B2457BE@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51015D35.5040206@it.ox.ac.uk> On 24/01/13 15:32, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> b) The licence is wrong...it says CC by-sa when it should only by >> CC by. > > thats taken from COPYING.txt, can you change that? Done, changed to pretty much the text that is on the website. >> c) The add-on isn't 'signed' perhaps we should do that if >> releasing publicly? >> > yes, but signed by who? TEI-C as a consortium perhaps? > or if you see <media> I do indeed and hadn't updated otherwise. > I have added the XML file to P5, so anyone can edit it, by the way. If > we go with it, that means an extra stanza in the Release manual > (or maybe not, can probably be automated) And we will have to make sure that we choose a good place for it in the release hierarchy. Would this go with each of the releases, so somewhere like: http://www.tei-c.org/release/xml/tei/schema/ or http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/ or more related to the tei-oxygen package? http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-oxygen/ I guess the question is: would the framework be updated without a release of the Guidelines? (Perhaps... if the XSLT it brings with it has been updated?) But great work though! -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 11:16:39 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:16:39 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] automated oxygen update In-Reply-To: <51015D35.5040206@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <BA311350-EBE3-427A-9563-CFB09B593CC6@it.ox.ac.uk> <51015245.4040309@it.ox.ac.uk> <850DCFFE-6E4C-419F-BCF3-49864B2457BE@it.ox.ac.uk> <51015D35.5040206@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <62fdd3fb-6637-4111-a7ac-228b889aff13@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 24 Jan 2013, at 16:11, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> yes, but signed by who? > > TEI-C as a consortium perhaps? isn't the _point_ of signing that its traceable to a trusted _person_? maybe I misunderstand what oxygen folks mean > > And we will have to make sure that we choose a good place for it in the release hierarchy. Would this go with each of the releases, so somewhere like: > > http://www.tei-c.org/release/xml/tei/schema/ > or > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/ > > or more related to the tei-oxygen package? > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-oxygen/ > > I guess the question is: would the framework be updated without a release of the Guidelines? (Perhaps... if the XSLT it brings with it has been updated?) I had kind of thought right up at http://www.tei-c.org/release - its a meta file, not documentation, I think. and yes, it would change if we decided to repackage the same TEI P5 release with a later stylesheets (as in fact I will do shortly for the new oxygen release) -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jan 24 11:35:50 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 08:35:50 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] automated oxygen update In-Reply-To: <1DB8037D-047C-4E75-B152-13FBD13CAB36@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <BA311350-EBE3-427A-9563-CFB09B593CC6@it.ox.ac.uk> <1DB8037D-047C-4E75-B152-13FBD13CAB36@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510162E6.3080202@uvic.ca> Works great for me, as far as I can tell -- when I create a new TEI file using tei_all, <listPrefixDef> is available in <encodingDesc>. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-24 05:56 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 24 Jan 2013, at 13:54, Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: > >> http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/updateSite.xml > > i meant http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/updateSite.oxygen of course > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 11:43:28 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:43:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] automated oxygen update In-Reply-To: <62fdd3fb-6637-4111-a7ac-228b889aff13@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <BA311350-EBE3-427A-9563-CFB09B593CC6@it.ox.ac.uk> <51015245.4040309@it.ox.ac.uk> <850DCFFE-6E4C-419F-BCF3-49864B2457BE@it.ox.ac.uk> <51015D35.5040206@it.ox.ac.uk> <62fdd3fb-6637-4111-a7ac-228b889aff13@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510164B0.8090105@it.ox.ac.uk> On 24/01/13 16:16, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 24 Jan 2013, at 16:11, James Cummings > <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>> yes, but signed by who? >> >> TEI-C as a consortium perhaps? > > isn't the _point_ of signing that its traceable to a trusted > _person_? maybe I misunderstand what oxygen folks mean Dunno. It might be a role (Council Chair, or Release Technician) can be viewed as trusted for oXygen's point of view. I've emailed them, CC'ing you. > I had kind of thought right up at http://www.tei-c.org/release > - its a meta file, not documentation, I think. I agree... just worry about either cluttering things up or appearing to endorse only oXygen. > and yes, it would change if we decided to repackage the same > TEI P5 release with a later stylesheets (as in fact I will do > shortly for the new oxygen release) Then definitely outside the lower down release tree but inside /release/ I guess. though we could do /release/someDirectoryName/updateSite.oxygen of course, where 'someDirectoryName' is something that means 'configuration files for any third-party tools we want to support'? -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 12:16:47 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:16:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Visualization of our work in SVN In-Reply-To: <4048B218-E92F-403A-9B44-7EE68C934D8E@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51005E25.1080106@uvic.ca> <51006124.3010103@ultraslavonic.info> <51006CAF.2050503@uvic.ca> <5100FE12.6090707@it.ox.ac.uk> <5101195A.6060704@kcl.ac.uk> <51013C11.1070502@uvic.ca> <4048B218-E92F-403A-9B44-7EE68C934D8E@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51016C7F.1030903@it.ox.ac.uk> On 24/01/13 14:05, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > one really good commit every 6 months is worth a thousand flashes in the pan from late night commits > > (I speak as one who over-commits?.) One can also look at https://www.ohloh.net/p/tei which tells me: In a Nutshell, Text Encoding Initiative ...has had 11,300 commits made by 32 contributors representing 1,311,910 lines of code ...is mostly written in XSL Transformation with a low number of source code comments [ed note: that's because it doesn't understand the xml commenting system used in the Stylesheets, or that the majority of our text is prose not source code.] ...has a well established, mature codebase maintained by a large development team with stable year-over-year commits ...took an estimated 369 years of effort (COCOMO model) starting with its first commit in April, 2004 ending with its most recent commit 4 days ago In the last 30 days: 30 Day Summary Dec 22 2012 ? Jan 21 2013 243 Commits, 9 Contributors including 1 new contributor However, in the last 12 months: 12 Month Summary Jan 21 2012 ? Jan 21 2013 1436 Commits; Down -179 (11%) from previous 12 months 14 Contributors; Down -2 (12%) from previous 12 months I'm fifth in the ranking of commits in the last 12 months, or sixth overall, so I must up my commit numbers significantly! You can even get a SIMILE timeline of Sebastian's commits at: https://www.ohloh.net/p/tei/contributors/118006374035065 fun fun fun, now back to work! -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 12:29:42 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:29:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] automated oxygen update In-Reply-To: <5eced7bc-70ca-4134-9cc4-73c0a8a34f16@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <BA311350-EBE3-427A-9563-CFB09B593CC6@it.ox.ac.uk> <51015245.4040309@it.ox.ac.uk> <5eced7bc-70ca-4134-9cc4-73c0a8a34f16@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51016F86.7060908@retired.ox.ac.uk> All works fine for me, even in French. (Apparently the french for "add-on" is ... drumroll ... "add-on") Obvious I know but when the idiot tutorial on how to set this up is written, it should point out that you really have to be online to do it -- and that it takes a while to grab and process the zip. Also that you have to agree to a licence. And the absence of signature will worry some paranoid people, as well it might. Doesn it not mean signed as in "signed certificate"? On 24/01/13 15:32, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 24 Jan 2013, at 15:24, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: > >> >> Things I notice: >> >> a) We should check what version of oxygen this will work with (I >> think 14.*+ ?) > correct. > >> b) The licence is wrong...it says CC by-sa when it should only by >> CC by. > thats taken from COPYING.txt, can you change that? > >> c) The add-on isn't 'signed' perhaps we should do that if >> releasing publicly? >> > yes, but signed by who? > >> It appears to work though, after restart of oXygen. At least I >> got @unit on <biblScope>, which I believe was new, right? >> > or if you see <media> > > > I have added the XML file to P5, so anyone can edit it, by the way. If > we go with it, that means an extra stanza in the Release manual > (or maybe not, can probably be automated) > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 16:30:37 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:30:37 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Visualization of our work in SVN In-Reply-To: <51016C7F.1030903@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51005E25.1080106@uvic.ca> <51006124.3010103@ultraslavonic.info> <51006CAF.2050503@uvic.ca> <5100FE12.6090707@it.ox.ac.uk> <5101195A.6060704@kcl.ac.uk> <51013C11.1070502@uvic.ca> <4048B218-E92F-403A-9B44-7EE68C934D8E@it.ox.ac.uk> <51016C7F.1030903@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <f7b67377-a6a9-4068-aad6-0de87751fb9d@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> > > You can even get a SIMILE timeline of Sebastian's commits at: > https://www.ohloh.net/p/tei/contributors/118006374035065 > its a curious metric. I sit there late at night, make mistakes, commit them, notice, fix them, wait until next day,someone else finds a mistake, fix badly, commit, notice, fix again that should have been one "design it right in the first place" :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 16:38:11 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 21:38:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] automated oxygen update In-Reply-To: <510164B0.8090105@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <BA311350-EBE3-427A-9563-CFB09B593CC6@it.ox.ac.uk> <51015245.4040309@it.ox.ac.uk> <850DCFFE-6E4C-419F-BCF3-49864B2457BE@it.ox.ac.uk> <51015D35.5040206@it.ox.ac.uk> <62fdd3fb-6637-4111-a7ac-228b889aff13@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <510164B0.8090105@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <ec030a20-d100-4a8d-8206-6a4074d80962@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 24 Jan 2013, at 16:43, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Then definitely outside the lower down release tree but inside > /release/ I guess. though we could do > /release/someDirectoryName/updateSite.oxygen of course, where > 'someDirectoryName' is something that means 'configuration files > for any third-party tools we want to support'? > could be in /oxygen/ or /release/oxygen/ ? once we decide that, we can ask for more testers, and write documentation. but obviously better to stick with a destination if we can for those who haven't looked at the source, it pulls the distribution from https://code.google.com/p/oxygen-tei/ - which goes, of course, some way towards paciifying Martin Mueller's complaints about unfriendliness, at almost no cost to us (since we do the thing at oxygen-tei anyway, we just have to maintain this one simple config file) -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jan 24 16:39:09 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 13:39:09 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Visualization of our work in SVN In-Reply-To: <51016C7F.1030903@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51005E25.1080106@uvic.ca> <51006124.3010103@ultraslavonic.info> <51006CAF.2050503@uvic.ca> <5100FE12.6090707@it.ox.ac.uk> <5101195A.6060704@kcl.ac.uk> <51013C11.1070502@uvic.ca> <4048B218-E92F-403A-9B44-7EE68C934D8E@it.ox.ac.uk> <51016C7F.1030903@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5101A9FD.9000202@uvic.ca> I've created a cleaner version, removed the old one, and posted a message to TEI-L. The new one also shows a tally of the types of files being worked on. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-24 09:16 AM, James Cummings wrote: > On 24/01/13 14:05, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> one really good commit every 6 months is worth a thousand flashes in the pan from late night commits >> >> (I speak as one who over-commits?.) > > One can also look at https://www.ohloh.net/p/tei > > > which tells me: > > In a Nutshell, Text Encoding Initiative > ...has had 11,300 commits made by 32 contributors > representing 1,311,910 lines of code > ...is mostly written in XSL Transformation > with a low number of source code comments > > [ed note: that's because it doesn't understand the xml commenting > system used in the Stylesheets, or that the majority of our text > is prose not source code.] > > ...has a well established, mature codebase > maintained by a large development team > with stable year-over-year commits > ...took an estimated 369 years of effort (COCOMO model) > starting with its first commit in April, 2004 > ending with its most recent commit 4 days ago > > In the last 30 days: > 30 Day Summary Dec 22 2012 ? Jan 21 2013 > 243 Commits, 9 Contributors including 1 new contributor > > However, in the last 12 months: > 12 Month Summary Jan 21 2012 ? Jan 21 2013 > > 1436 Commits; Down -179 (11%) from previous 12 months > 14 Contributors; Down -2 (12%) from previous 12 months > > I'm fifth in the ranking of commits in the last 12 months, or > sixth overall, so I must up my commit numbers significantly! > > You can even get a SIMILE timeline of Sebastian's commits at: > https://www.ohloh.net/p/tei/contributors/118006374035065 > > fun fun fun, > > now back to work! > > -James > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jan 25 15:23:24 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 12:23:24 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Move tickets in SF from one tracker to another Message-ID: <5102E9BC.8010204@uvic.ca> I noticed that SF has implemented this: "Today?s push implemented feature request ticket 16, giving the ability to move a ticket from one tracker to another. This is very useful if you have multiple trackers on one project, or have several related projects. To move a ticket, click the Move link at the top right of your ticket view. " This doesn't seem to be available yet on the live SF site, and perhaps might not be available until we move to the new system -- not sure about that -- but I think it's going to make our lives slightly better. We might decide to implement a few more trackers -- perhaps even use separate trackers in place of the colour-coding system. Then we could easily provide links to "upcoming changes" (i.e. green tickets) in the run-up to a release, so users could see more background before and after a release. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Jan 27 12:39:46 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 12:39:46 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Standardi[s|z]ation In-Reply-To: <4F4A42E4.9050203@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <4F4925E9.8020105@uvic.ca> <4F492BAC.2080904@retired.ox.ac.uk> <4F4A42E4.9050203@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51056662.3060607@ultraslavonic.info> I have added this rule to http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw24.xml --Kevin On 2/26/2012 9:34 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > Further to my rather cryptic comment below: my recommendation is > > a) look up the word in the OED > b) if it says that both -IZE and -ISE forms are usable, use the -IZE form. > c) otherwise use the -ISE form. > > > n 25/02/12 18:42, Lou Burnard wrote: >> Michael Quinnion is good on this, (as on many other things) >> >> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ise1.htm >> >> The -IZE suffix only applize to words which (etymologically speaking) >> come to use from a Latinized version of a Greek suffix. That's the >> rationale given by the OED anyway. >> >> I don't think we should be guided by "instinct" here. Look em up. >> >> >> On 25/02/12 18:18, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> One of Jens's excellent proofing reports suggests that we standardize >>> spellings ending in -ise/-ize. I'm inclined to agree, and with -ise >>> looking a bit beleaguered these days, I think it should be -ize. Lou >>> agrees, on the ticket. >>> >>> So I ran this regex to see what we have: >>> >>> is((e[d|s]*)|(ing))\b >>> >>> It found 1529 instances, most of which aren't relevant ("otherwise", >>> "raise" etc.). But amongst those which are, they don't all seem clear >>> cut to me, though. I think these are uncontroversial: >>> >>> standardise >>> normalise >>> capitalise >>> specialise >>> summarise >>> computerise >>> italicise >>> recognise >>> regularise >>> categorise >>> >>> But what about these? I feel instinctively less happy with changing >>> these to z, for some reason: >>> >>> harmonise >>> compromise >>> analyse >>> exercise >>> utilise >>> >>> and I think these cannot be changed to z, even though, in many cases, >>> variants with z are attested: >>> >>> comprise >>> revise >>> devise >>> advise >>> excise >>> >>> So what do your instincts tell you about these? Should we basically make >>> a list of words which should use z, and put it in our style guide? >>> >>> Making the changes will be a significant job, because there are >>> instances of similar words in French that mustn't be changed ("utilise", >>> for instance). I think it'll best be done with XSLT (which can be >>> language-aware, and ignore the French) and some very precise regexes. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >> > From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Jan 27 12:44:03 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 12:44:03 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] "TEI Header" vs. "TEI header" Message-ID: <51056763.20105@ultraslavonic.info> A quick grep of files in Subversion finds 264 instances of "TEI Header" and 250 of "TEI header". I'd like to settle on one of these and add the verdict to http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw24.xml . My suggestion is that we settle on "TEI header". In my view, "header" is not a proper noun because it's not the proper name of the element (<teiHeader>), just a verbal shorthand we use. If there are no objections in a few days, I'll make the change globally and commit those files, and I'll add this to tcw24. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 27 12:48:54 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 17:48:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "TEI Header" vs. "TEI header" In-Reply-To: <51056763.20105@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51056763.20105@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <71D85BF8-03B7-452F-B33C-E933792AB48B@it.ox.ac.uk> On 27 Jan 2013, at 17:44, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > My suggestion is that we settle on "TEI header". In my view, "header" > is not a proper noun because it's not the proper name of the element > (<teiHeader>), just a verbal shorthand we use. > so we should say _either_ "in the TEI header" _or_ "in the <gi>teiHeader</gi>"? that does make sense. dont forget that section headings like "2 The TEI Header" would stay as is, though, so its not just a global search and replace. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Jan 27 14:39:52 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 14:39:52 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines Message-ID: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> At http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw20.xml we say to add a bibliographic citation for the source of any encoded fragment in an <egXML> and link to it using @corresp. But I can't find any explanation in TCW20 or TCW24 of where to put a bibliographic citation for something mentioned in the prose. We sometimes cite sources within a <note place="bottom"> and other times using a <ref> or <ptr/> to something in BIB-Bibliography.xml. Is there an undocumented practice here for when to include in one place or other? Perhaps sources likely to be referenced a second time should always be put in BIB-Bibliography.xml while others are fine in footnotes? I can update the very brief discussion of references in TCW24 once we reach conclusion. --Kevin From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Jan 27 14:44:00 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 14:44:00 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] "the Guidelines" vs. "these Guidelines" Message-ID: <51058380.4050901@ultraslavonic.info> I count 59 instances of "the Guidelines" and 127 of "these Guidelines". Would be nice to stick to just one and document. I think "these Guidelines" is clearer but could be talked into using "the Guidelines" or even leaving things as they are. Thoughts? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 27 14:52:48 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 19:52:48 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> On 27 Jan 2013, at 19:39, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > At > > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw20.xml > > we say to add a bibliographic citation for the source of any encoded > fragment in an <egXML> and link to it using @corresp. which should change to @source now, and we should change all the old ones. I put the change into the XSL to support this > But I can't find > any explanation in TCW20 or TCW24 of where to put a bibliographic > citation for something mentioned in the prose. the new @source on <quote> and <q> may fit some of the bill? otherwise I'd expect to use <ptr target="#Jones76" rend="bibcite"/>, but I am making that up as I write > Perhaps > sources likely to be referenced a second time should always be put in > BIB-Bibliography.xml while others are fine in footnotes? I would guess things should be in BIB if at all possible, and keep the footnotes for _ad hoc_ URLs? -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 27 14:53:38 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 19:53:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "the Guidelines" vs. "these Guidelines" In-Reply-To: <51058380.4050901@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51058380.4050901@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <6029BD04-6258-48B6-B607-9CA1E1BC818E@it.ox.ac.uk> On 27 Jan 2013, at 19:44, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > I count 59 instances of "the Guidelines" and 127 of "these Guidelines". > Would be nice to stick to just one and document. I think "these > Guidelines" is clearer but could be talked into using "the Guidelines" > or even leaving things as they are. i very mildly vote in favour of standardizing on "these Guidelines" -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 27 16:49:35 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 21:49:35 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "the Guidelines" vs. "these Guidelines" In-Reply-To: <51058380.4050901@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51058380.4050901@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5105A0EF.3040506@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 27/01/13 19:44, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > I count 59 instances of "the Guidelines" and 127 of "these Guidelines". > Would be nice to stick to just one and document. I think "these > Guidelines" is clearer but could be talked into using "the Guidelines" > or even leaving things as they are. > Well, there are a few subtle cases ... e.g. "The Guidelines were first published in ..." sounds better than "These Guidelines were first" presumably because we're talking about the bibliographic concept in the former, and the current version in the latter. From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Jan 27 23:38:46 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 20:38:46 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510600D6.50303@uvic.ca> > > I would guess things should be in BIB if at all possible, and keep the footnotes > for _ad hoc_ URLs? I agree. I've also been meaning to make those footnotes actually pop up next to the footnote number so you don't bounce down to the bottom of the page and bounce back. Does everyone think that would be a good idea? It would be like the footnotes on a page like this: <http://bcgenesis.uvic.ca/getDoc.htm?id=V465HB01.scx> (Scroll down till you see the grey button with "1" on it, and click it.) Cheers, Martin On 13-01-27 11:52 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 27 Jan 2013, at 19:39, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> > wrote: > >> At >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw20.xml >> >> we say to add a bibliographic citation for the source of any encoded >> fragment in an <egXML> and link to it using @corresp. > > which should change to @source now, and we should change all the old ones. > I put the change into the XSL to support this > >> But I can't find >> any explanation in TCW20 or TCW24 of where to put a bibliographic >> citation for something mentioned in the prose. > the new @source on <quote> and <q> may fit some of the bill? otherwise > I'd expect to use <ptr target="#Jones76" rend="bibcite"/>, but I am making that up > as I write > >> Perhaps >> sources likely to be referenced a second time should always be put in >> BIB-Bibliography.xml while others are fine in footnotes? > > > I would guess things should be in BIB if at all possible, and keep the footnotes > for _ad hoc_ URLs? > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Jan 27 23:39:31 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 20:39:31 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] "the Guidelines" vs. "these Guidelines" In-Reply-To: <6029BD04-6258-48B6-B607-9CA1E1BC818E@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51058380.4050901@ultraslavonic.info> <6029BD04-6258-48B6-B607-9CA1E1BC818E@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51060103.1010906@uvic.ca> I think having both is OK. On 13-01-27 11:53 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 27 Jan 2013, at 19:44, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> > wrote: > >> I count 59 instances of "the Guidelines" and 127 of "these Guidelines". >> Would be nice to stick to just one and document. I think "these >> Guidelines" is clearer but could be talked into using "the Guidelines" >> or even leaving things as they are. > > > i very mildly vote in favour of standardizing on "these Guidelines" > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 28 07:22:50 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:22:50 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] "the Guidelines" vs. "these Guidelines" In-Reply-To: <5105A0EF.3040506@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51058380.4050901@ultraslavonic.info> <5105A0EF.3040506@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51066D9A.8030807@it.ox.ac.uk> On 27/01/13 21:49, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 27/01/13 19:44, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> I count 59 instances of "the Guidelines" and 127 of "these Guidelines". >> Would be nice to stick to just one and document. I think "these >> Guidelines" is clearer but could be talked into using "the Guidelines" >> or even leaving things as they are. >> > > Well, there are a few subtle cases ... e.g. "The Guidelines were first > published in ..." sounds better than "These Guidelines were first" > presumably because we're talking about the bibliographic concept in the > former, and the current version in the latter. I've always said 'The Guidelines' but I suppose 'These' makes sense. But as Lou notes these would have to be checked in each case. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 28 07:46:01 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:46:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] automated oxygen update In-Reply-To: <592F267E-F509-4E23-8963-16C3DA1A4D5C@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <BA311350-EBE3-427A-9563-CFB09B593CC6@it.ox.ac.uk> <51015245.4040309@it.ox.ac.uk> <850DCFFE-6E4C-419F-BCF3-49864B2457BE@it.ox.ac.uk> <51015D35.5040206@it.ox.ac.uk> <62fdd3fb-6637-4111-a7ac-228b889aff13@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <510164B0.8090105@it.ox.ac.uk> <592F267E-F509-4E23-8963-16C3DA1A4D5C@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51067309.8090404@it.ox.ac.uk> On 24/01/13 21:38, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > could be in /oxygen/ or /release/oxygen/ ? How about the latter, i.e.: http://www.tei-c.org/release/oxygen/updateSite.oxygen Any serious arguments against this? If not silence will be assumed to be consent by the time Sebastian gets around to implementing it in the build and release process. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Jan 28 15:50:48 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:50:48 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Re currently broken build Message-ID: <5106E4A8.7070500@uvic.ca> The broken P5Test is my fault, and I do know about it -- I'm hoping to get time to fix it by the end of the day, but if you need a working Jenkins please feel free to revert my changes in rev 11544. If you fancy helping me fix it, the ticket it results from is this one: <http://purl.org/TEI/BUGS/3602122> Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 12:14:58 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:14:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] is <eg> special as regards whitespace? Message-ID: <9F9067C2-B8E4-4EBE-95B7-DB9B9F43D9EA@it.ox.ac.uk> One of the effects of implementing those white space rules in my XSL is that the contents of <eg> are now treated like any other element, i.e. newlines are replace by space etc. This means it is no longer equivalent to <pre> in HTML. So tell me, o wolves, what does the encoding <eg> the cat sat on the mat <./eg> mean? since the reference page has nothing to say on the matter, I suggest that i currently have no justification to make <eg> always behave as if it had xml:space="preserve" so tell me, is <eg> to be a hard-wired exception? if so, we must document it, lest the Wrath of McCaskey descend upon us. (and please, if anyone says, "won't using CDATA [[]] help", I shall probably have to eat a stuffed monkey again) -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jan 29 12:19:40 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 09:19:40 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] is <eg> special as regards whitespace? In-Reply-To: <9F9067C2-B8E4-4EBE-95B7-DB9B9F43D9EA@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <9F9067C2-B8E4-4EBE-95B7-DB9B9F43D9EA@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510804AC.1050403@uvic.ca> If no-one has complained that their linebreaks are disappearing with the new stylesheets, then I would say that you should leave well alone; it's easy enough for someone to add xml:space="preserve" if they need to, and it seems wrong that space should be preserved without it. However, I will suggest: won't using CDATA [[]] help? (I want to see you eat a stuffed monkey. I missed it the first time.) Cheers, Martin On 13-01-29 09:14 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > One of the effects of implementing those white space rules in my XSL is that > the contents of <eg> are now treated like any other element, i.e. > newlines are replace by space etc. This means it is no longer equivalent > to <pre> in HTML. > > So tell me, o wolves, what does the encoding > > <eg> > the cat > sat on the mat > <./eg> > > mean? > > since the reference page has nothing to say on the matter, I suggest that i currently > have no justification to make <eg> always behave as if it had xml:space="preserve" > > so tell me, is <eg> to be a hard-wired exception? if so, we must > document it, lest the Wrath of McCaskey descend upon us. > > (and please, if anyone says, "won't using CDATA [[]] help", > I shall probably have to eat a stuffed monkey again) > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 12:20:56 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:20:56 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] is <eg> special as regards whitespace? In-Reply-To: <9F9067C2-B8E4-4EBE-95B7-DB9B9F43D9EA@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <9F9067C2-B8E4-4EBE-95B7-DB9B9F43D9EA@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510804F8.4040704@it.ox.ac.uk> I'm of the opinion that <eg> is not special as regards whitespace. If its definition is to be revised then there could be an argument for extending its content model. i.e. now it allows only character data... which is very much *not* the model of 'illustrative example' that I think most people would understand. It makes sense only as its roots in ODD not is any provision for wider use. -James On 29/01/13 17:14, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > One of the effects of implementing those white space rules in my XSL is that > the contents of <eg> are now treated like any other element, i.e. > newlines are replace by space etc. This means it is no longer equivalent > to <pre> in HTML. > > So tell me, o wolves, what does the encoding > > <eg> > the cat > sat on the mat > <./eg> > > mean? > > since the reference page has nothing to say on the matter, I suggest that i currently > have no justification to make <eg> always behave as if it had xml:space="preserve" > > so tell me, is <eg> to be a hard-wired exception? if so, we must > document it, lest the Wrath of McCaskey descend upon us. > > (and please, if anyone says, "won't using CDATA [[]] help", > I shall probably have to eat a stuffed monkey again) > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 12:23:29 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:23:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] is <eg> special as regards whitespace? In-Reply-To: <510804AC.1050403@uvic.ca> References: <9F9067C2-B8E4-4EBE-95B7-DB9B9F43D9EA@it.ox.ac.uk> <510804AC.1050403@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <59B7FFF9-B05E-412D-B249-45FF7C70A8A5@it.ox.ac.uk> On 29 Jan 2013, at 17:19, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > If no-one has complained that their linebreaks are disappearing with the > new stylesheets, then I would say that you should leave well alone; well, unfortunately they have complained, see ticket in SF. one person at least, the indefatigable fine man D Meeus > it's > easy enough for someone to add xml:space="preserve" if they need to, and > it seems wrong that space should be preserved without it. i agree, its in our new spirit of "no magic" > > (I want to see you eat a stuffed monkey. I missed it the first time.) you're too far away to invite to dinner, so it may have to wait until the summer. OK if I try again this weekend, and just send a photo? the last one fell to pieces. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Jan 29 19:49:12 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:49:12 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] is <eg> special as regards whitespace? In-Reply-To: <510804F8.4040704@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <9F9067C2-B8E4-4EBE-95B7-DB9B9F43D9EA@it.ox.ac.uk> <510804F8.4040704@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51086E08.5070202@ultraslavonic.info> I'm with Martin and James that <tei:eg> is not currently defined in a way that implies that it behaves like <html:pre>, so you should not do @xml:space='preserve' in your stylesheets. If anyone was assuming behavior like <html:pre> up to now, they should be able to insert @xml:space='preserve' in their data globally to fix the problem. --K. On 1/29/13 12:20 PM, James Cummings wrote: > > I'm of the opinion that <eg> is not special as regards > whitespace. If its definition is to be revised then there could > be an argument for extending its content model. > > i.e. now it allows only character data... which is very much > *not* the model of 'illustrative example' that I think most > people would understand. It makes sense only as its roots in ODD > not is any provision for wider use. > > -James > > > On 29/01/13 17:14, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> One of the effects of implementing those white space rules in my XSL is that >> the contents of <eg> are now treated like any other element, i.e. >> newlines are replace by space etc. This means it is no longer equivalent >> to <pre> in HTML. >> >> So tell me, o wolves, what does the encoding >> >> <eg> >> the cat >> sat on the mat >> <./eg> >> >> mean? >> >> since the reference page has nothing to say on the matter, I suggest that i currently >> have no justification to make <eg> always behave as if it had xml:space="preserve" >> >> so tell me, is <eg> to be a hard-wired exception? if so, we must >> document it, lest the Wrath of McCaskey descend upon us. >> >> (and please, if anyone says, "won't using CDATA [[]] help", >> I shall probably have to eat a stuffed monkey again) >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > > From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 31 05:51:41 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 10:51:41 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Front and titlePage Message-ID: <510A4CBD.5020004@it.ox.ac.uk> Hiya TEI Technical Council, I've been reading through the Default Text Structure chapter and a minor organisational question jumped out at me. If you look at the table of contents of DS: http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/DS.html, why is section 4.6 (title pages) not nested inside the section 4.5 (front matter)? Is it that title pages are so important that they deserve a equal footing with front and back even though lower in the XML hierarchy? For what it is worth, this separation out as a division dates from at least P2. Just thought I'd ask as any principle of when something should be a separate section or nested. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jan 31 08:48:06 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 05:48:06 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Front and titlePage In-Reply-To: <510A4CBD.5020004@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510A4CBD.5020004@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510A7616.4090401@uvic.ca> I vote for nesting here. I've actually stumbled over that oddity myself. Cheers, Martin On 13-01-31 02:51 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > Hiya TEI Technical Council, > > I've been reading through the Default Text Structure chapter and > a minor organisational question jumped out at me. If you look at > the table of contents of DS: > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/DS.html, why > is section 4.6 (title pages) not nested inside the section 4.5 > (front matter)? Is it that title pages are so important that > they deserve a equal footing with front and back even though > lower in the XML hierarchy? > > For what it is worth, this separation out as a division dates > from at least P2. > > Just thought I'd ask as any principle of when something should be > a separate section or nested. > > -James > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 31 09:28:02 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 14:28:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Front and titlePage In-Reply-To: <510A7616.4090401@uvic.ca> References: <510A4CBD.5020004@it.ox.ac.uk> <510A7616.4090401@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <510A7F72.7080708@retired.ox.ac.uk> I suspect I was responsible for the decision to separate title pages out from other bits of front and back matter way back in the middle ages. The rationale was that titlepages can appear in either front or back matter, so putting a section devoted to them in one devoted to either would be wrong. And of course they have a lot of specialised subcomponents which dont appear in either front or back otherwise. I don't think anyone has ever regarded this as particularly odd, till now. On 31/01/13 13:48, Martin Holmes wrote: > I vote for nesting here. I've actually stumbled over that oddity myself. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-01-31 02:51 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> >> Hiya TEI Technical Council, >> >> I've been reading through the Default Text Structure chapter and >> a minor organisational question jumped out at me. If you look at >> the table of contents of DS: >> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/DS.html, why >> is section 4.6 (title pages) not nested inside the section 4.5 >> (front matter)? Is it that title pages are so important that >> they deserve a equal footing with front and back even though >> lower in the XML hierarchy? >> >> For what it is worth, this separation out as a division dates >> from at least P2. >> >> Just thought I'd ask as any principle of when something should be >> a separate section or nested. >> >> -James >> From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 31 12:49:48 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:49:48 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Front and titlePage In-Reply-To: <510A7F72.7080708@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <510A4CBD.5020004@it.ox.ac.uk> <510A7616.4090401@uvic.ca> <510A7F72.7080708@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510AAEBC.40109@it.ox.ac.uk> On 31/01/13 14:28, Lou Burnard wrote: > I suspect I was responsible for the decision to separate title pages out > from other bits of front and back matter way back in the middle ages. > The rationale was that titlepages can appear in either front or back > matter, so putting a section devoted to them in one devoted to either > would be wrong. And of course they have a lot of specialised > subcomponents which dont appear in either front or back otherwise. That is the justification that I thought would appear -- It can appear in more than one of the things that are described at that top level. Another approach of course is to have a section which includes all three of these things. i.e.: - Front and Back Matter -- Front -- Back -- Title Pages -- Other things appearing in front/back or something. I'm not making a strong case for it, so I didn't file a bug report or anything, was just sort of musing aloud in case anyone else had found it odd (and martin appears to fall into that category. Maybe we're just the strange ones though. > I don't think anyone has ever regarded this as particularly odd, till now. What society considers odd (and ODD?) changes over time. -James > > On 31/01/13 13:48, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I vote for nesting here. I've actually stumbled over that oddity myself. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-01-31 02:51 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>> >>> Hiya TEI Technical Council, >>> >>> I've been reading through the Default Text Structure chapter and >>> a minor organisational question jumped out at me. If you look at >>> the table of contents of DS: >>> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/DS.html, why >>> is section 4.6 (title pages) not nested inside the section 4.5 >>> (front matter)? Is it that title pages are so important that >>> they deserve a equal footing with front and back even though >>> lower in the XML hierarchy? >>> >>> For what it is worth, this separation out as a division dates >>> from at least P2. >>> >>> Just thought I'd ask as any principle of when something should be >>> a separate section or nested. >>> >>> -James >>> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 31 13:14:42 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:14:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Front and titlePage In-Reply-To: <510AAEBC.40109@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510A4CBD.5020004@it.ox.ac.uk> <510A7616.4090401@uvic.ca> <510A7F72.7080708@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510AAEBC.40109@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510AB492.5030508@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 31/01/13 17:49, James Cummings wrote: Another approach of course is to have a section which > includes all three of these things. i.e.: > > - Front and Back Matter > -- Front > -- Back > -- Title Pages > -- Other things appearing in front/back > yeah, except that so far there aren't any things in the last subdivision, which makes for rather dull reading. From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 1 10:53:07 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 15:53:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. Message-ID: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi Elli, (CC'ed rest of Council) Looking at http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 April were the best dates? Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a Saturday? I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the next couple days. If not we better start organising! Questions/requirements that occur to me are: - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for informal small breakout groups? - We'll definitely need wifi available. ;-) - We usually either book coffee breaks from whatever catering you'd normally use (or if there is a really close place to buy such refreshments) - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that will take a group our size each day. - Do you know if there is any benefit of doing the hotel booking en masse via you (i.e. Brown gets discount or something) or is better to do individually? (We've done both ways before). Can you recommend a reasonable nearby hotel with wifi? - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day before, weds 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with hearing about it from you. :-) There are some other things on http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council-Meeting-Checklist but that's a start! Best, -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Fri Feb 1 11:55:34 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 11:55:34 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> answers interspersed below. On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:53 AM, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Hi Elli, (CC'ed rest of Council) > > Looking at http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i > > Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 April > were the best dates? Those work for me. Saturday is easier w/ respect to room availability. > > Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a Saturday? > I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the next couple > days. > > If not we better start organising! > > Questions/requirements that occur to me are: > - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for informal > small breakout groups? I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. > - We'll definitely need wifi available. ;-) Brown has guest wifi > - We usually either book coffee breaks from whatever catering you'd normally > use (or if there is a really close place to buy such refreshments) both are possible > - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that will take a > group our size each day. yup, or can cater it > - Do you know if there is any benefit of doing the hotel booking en masse > via you (i.e. Brown gets discount or something) or is better to do > individually? (We've done both ways before). Can you recommend a reasonable > nearby hotel with wifi? Brown doesn't have official discounts, but I can ask around. Or give you names so you can try for them on hotels.com. > - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day before, weds > 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with hearing > about it from you. :-) > I was thinking about shilling for TEI talks to the Boston DH consortium, to see if anyone wants to be invited, maybe get some travel defrayed. John Unsworth, as treasurer, has a vested interest in keeping costs down. > There are some other things on > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council-Meeting-Checklist but that's a > start! > > Best, > -James > > -- > Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Feb 1 11:59:22 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 08:59:22 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] data.code and data.word In-Reply-To: <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <E5CD1A79-6E06-458D-88EB-62F50E3DE282@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <AE53FDC7-1E76-4249-94FF-4E2B7EEFFA23@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510BF46A.1040207@uvic.ca> The discussion that begins here: <http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2013/016983.html> (and which follows on from a lengthy preceding one) has resulted in a situation where there is only one attribute in TEI with a datatype of data.code (att.edition/@ed), and data.code itself is defined as data.word. Can we now go ahead and redefine @ed as data.word, and remove data.code from the system? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Feb 1 13:33:48 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 10:33:48 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] @rows="0", @cols="0"? Message-ID: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> I'm working on this ticket: http://purl.org/TEI/FR/3511398 where the objective is to express any constraint on an attribute value which is currently only expressed in a valDesc as Schematron so it can be enforced. So far the only candidates I've found for this are @rows and @cols in att.tableDecoration. These are data.count, which permits zero, but the valDescs would seem to imply that zero is wrong. Can anyone think of a scenario in which it would be reasonable to have: <row cols="0"> or <cell rows="0">? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Fri Feb 1 17:00:26 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 17:00:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] @rows="0", @cols="0"? In-Reply-To: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> References: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1302011659080.21318@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: > Can anyone think of a scenario in which it would be reasonable to have: > > <row cols="0"> or <cell rows="0">? This sounds like a trick question but I'll play along. My answer is "No." pfs From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Feb 1 17:10:12 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 17:10:12 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] @rows="0", @cols="0"? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1302011659080.21318@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1302011659080.21318@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <510C3D44.1020200@ultraslavonic.info> On 2/1/2013 5:00 PM, Paul F. Schaffner wrote: > On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: > >> Can anyone think of a scenario in which it would be reasonable to have: >> >> <row cols="0"> or<cell rows="0">? > > This sounds like a trick question but I'll play along. > > My answer is "No." I threw this out there to my gang as some were heading out the door for the weekend. We decided that a row spanning no columns or a cell spanning no rows is a Zen koan akin to the sound of one hand clapping. While we're at it, what about <row rows="0"> and <cell cols="0">? K. From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Fri Feb 1 17:16:48 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 17:16:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] @rows="0", @cols="0"? In-Reply-To: <510C3D44.1020200@ultraslavonic.info> References: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1302011659080.21318@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <510C3D44.1020200@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1302011715420.21318@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> On Fri, 1 Feb 2013, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > We decided that a row spanning no columns or a cell > spanning no rows is a Zen koan akin to the sound of one hand clapping. I was thinking more in terms of topological oddities, oblique universes, and the Doctor's E-space. pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Feb 1 17:57:20 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 17:57:20 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: Google Books > TEI In-Reply-To: <50B4D29B.5070904@ultraslavonic.info> References: <CAHScxsXxO188J7bFBH929-r2btB1ajB8Fv=ESNPerXjVgEb24g@mail.gmail.com> <4F56CA83.8050704@ultraslavonic.info> <CAA2irtJs0PfM8=FgJdRC3FxK7Oqu_U9_=8R3PRLbFOam6qka0w@mail.gmail.com> <CAHScxsWcSq5Yp=xcmJbTGW3cKrKBrVdpJuhj1cG_=+AS-NvJcA@mail.gmail.com> <4F5A3E50.7020508@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <CAHScxsXgBDv_vY2=1S-Ux9Wv+y82tmHdoWj-j2DJ0fpak_gfWA@mail.gmail.com> <50B4D29B.5070904@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <510C4850.7080700@ultraslavonic.info> Ranjith, just checking that I haven't missed a reply from you ... On 11/27/2012 9:47 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Hi Ranjith, > > Any progress on deployment of TEI export capability in Google Books? > > If not, perhaps we can supplement the info at > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PWBt_y-svn8ESAFDz1KxZinKXxc9dfn6kj5sbsIbBR0/edit > by setting up a form in Google Drive where we ask one or two questions > of the community (like "If Google Books made public domain titles > available to download as TEI documents, how would you use these?") and > let people fill in free-form responses. I can circulate send the link > to the form to the TEI email list in the hope of getting a broader set > of responses than just the few of us who have been editing the Google > Drive document above. What do you think? > > --Kevin > > On 3/9/2012 12:39 PM, Ranjith Unnikrishnan wrote: >> That's a great idea, James. I look forward to getting your collective input. >> >> Best, >> ~R >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 9:30 AM, James Cummings >> <James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk<mailto:James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk>> wrote: >> >> On 07/03/12 18:48, Ranjith Unnikrishnan wrote: >> >> I'm looking for formal justification from you for our producing >> and making TEI files available for download on Google Books. Both >> require our commitment of several resources for the long term eg. >> for updating and maintaining code, making necessary changes in >> our processing pipeline, maintaining the download functionality >> for the lifetime of Google Books, committing to the extra storage >> space and computation etc. I have some anecdotal knowledge of why >> TEI is important, and have already spent a substantial amount of >> personal time writing the code and vetting the converted TEI >> output along with various interested parties; so we know it is >> possible and obviously I have an interest in seeing this all the >> way through. But since this will be "product"-level decision, >> there are others who will need to be convinced and will ask the >> big questions such as: >> >> >> Hi Ranjith, >> >> I'm more than happy to work with you in coming up with some >> executive summary kind of answers to these questions if that will >> help. How about I share a google doc with you and some of the others >> of the ad hoc working group. >> >> >> Hope that makes sense. I'm just trying to move this effort >> forward with your input. >> >> >> We really appreciate that and all your hard work. We're more than >> happy to work with you in any way to benefit TEI users. >> >> I'll share a google doc link from my gapps account soon. >> >> >> -James >> >> -- >> Dr James Cummings, InfoDev, >> Computing Services, University of Oxford >> >> From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 1 18:19:30 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 23:19:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] data.code and data.word In-Reply-To: <510BF46A.1040207@uvic.ca> References: <E5CD1A79-6E06-458D-88EB-62F50E3DE282@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <AE53FDC7-1E76-4249-94FF-4E2B7EEFFA23@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <510BF46A.1040207@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <510C4D82.6030405@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 01/02/13 16:59, Martin Holmes wrote: > The discussion that begins here: > > <http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2013/016983.html> > > (and which follows on from a lengthy preceding one) has resulted in a > situation where there is only one attribute in TEI with a datatype of > data.code (att.edition/@ed), and data.code itself is defined as data.word. > > Can we now go ahead and redefine @ed as data.word, and remove data.code > from the system? > Works for me From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Feb 1 21:55:38 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 21:55:38 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Upgrading TEI Project on SF In-Reply-To: <50C0A98C.5090007@kcl.ac.uk> References: <50BF7A22.7060401@it.ox.ac.uk> <50BF82FF.3030804@uvic.ca> <50BF8487.6020103@it.ox.ac.uk> <50C0A98C.5090007@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510C802A.4070404@ultraslavonic.info> So, now that our release is out the door, I think we'd better return to this: http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2012/016726.html As Gabby noted ... On 12/6/12 9:19 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > On 2012-12-05 17:29, James Cummings wrote: >>> Does SF have a deadline by which we need to move? >> >> Not that I've seen so far. > > They say "in the first quarter of 2013", which I think implies that if > we haven't upgraded by end March, they'll probably do it for us soon > thereafter. You'll recall that I started working out a plan for this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E0aV-E75VOLE_TCrEXVVqaez-9zlyDcpCTeF5QP2BPI/edit Maybe we can get a volunteer or two to lead this initiative? --Kevin From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Feb 1 22:31:25 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 22:31:25 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510C888D.9040206@ultraslavonic.info> On 1/27/13 2:52 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 27 Jan 2013, at 19:39, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> > wrote: > >> At >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw20.xml >> >> we say to add a bibliographic citation for the source of any encoded >> fragment in an <egXML> and link to it using @corresp. > > which should change to @source now, and we should change all the old ones. > I put the change into the XSL to support this Okay. I've updated TCW20 to say to use @source, but I've left the task of updating existing ODDs as an exercise for the reader: http://purl.org/TEI/FR/3603060 I'll post on the stylistic question that I first raised in this thread separately. --K. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Feb 1 22:37:27 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 22:37:27 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <510600D6.50303@uvic.ca> References: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> <510600D6.50303@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <510C89F7.10408@ultraslavonic.info> Regarding the display of footnotes in the HTML version of the Guidelines, Martin says: On 1/27/13 11:38 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: [. . .] >I've also been meaning to make those footnotes actually pop up > next to the footnote number so you don't bounce down to the bottom of > the page and bounce back. Does everyone think that would be a good idea? > It would be like the footnotes on a page like this: > > <http://bcgenesis.uvic.ca/getDoc.htm?id=V465HB01.scx> > > (Scroll down till you see the grey button with "1" on it, and click it.) Do these meet accessibility guidelines? I would prefer that any solution we implement be fully accessible. --Kevin From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Feb 1 23:14:16 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 23:14:16 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] "TEI Header" vs. "TEI header" In-Reply-To: <51056A90.8040702@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51056763.20105@ultraslavonic.info> <71D85BF8-03B7-452F-B33C-E933792AB48B@it.ox.ac.uk> <51056A90.8040702@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <510C9298.3030601@ultraslavonic.info> I've gone through the Guidelines carefully to implement as discussed (revisions 11563 and 11564), and I've added this rule to TCW24. On 1/27/13 12:57 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 1/27/2013 12:48 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 27 Jan 2013, at 17:44, Kevin >> Hawkins<kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> >> wrote: >> >>> My suggestion is that we settle on "TEI header". In my view, "header" >>> is not a proper noun because it's not the proper name of the element >>> (<teiHeader>), just a verbal shorthand we use. >>> >> so we should say _either_ "in the TEI header" _or_ "in >> the<gi>teiHeader</gi>"? >> that does make sense. > > Yes, that was my intention. > > Generally speaking, there is ambiguity in technical documentation that > says "inside <foo>" in that it's not clear whether you mean a child of > <foo> or any descendant of <foo>". My impression is that we have > generally used "in the TEI [H/h]eader" to mean as a descendant, not a > child. But perhaps that's neither here nor there. > >> dont forget that section headings like "2 The TEI Header" would stay >> as is, though, >> so its not just a global search and replace. > > Ugh, you're right. > > --K. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Feb 1 23:34:15 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 23:34:15 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <510600D6.50303@uvic.ca> References: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> <510600D6.50303@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <510C9747.7040000@ultraslavonic.info> Sebastian and Martin both like this distinction ... On 1/27/13 11:38 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> >> I would guess things should be in BIB if at all possible, and keep the footnotes >> for _ad hoc_ URLs? > > I agree. .. and that makes sense to me. I've created a ticket to do cleanup (and am hoping for a good Samaritan volunteer): http://purl.org/TEI/BUGS/3603070 --K. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Feb 1 23:39:48 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 23:39:48 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] "the Guidelines" vs. "these Guidelines" In-Reply-To: <51066D9A.8030807@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51058380.4050901@ultraslavonic.info> <5105A0EF.3040506@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51066D9A.8030807@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510C9894.1010806@ultraslavonic.info> On 1/28/13 7:22 AM, James Cummings wrote: > On 27/01/13 21:49, Lou Burnard wrote: >> On 27/01/13 19:44, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> I count 59 instances of "the Guidelines" and 127 of "these Guidelines". >>> Would be nice to stick to just one and document. I think "these >>> Guidelines" is clearer but could be talked into using "the Guidelines" >>> or even leaving things as they are. >>> >> >> Well, there are a few subtle cases ... e.g. "The Guidelines were first >> published in ..." sounds better than "These Guidelines were first" >> presumably because we're talking about the bibliographic concept in the >> former, and the current version in the latter. > > I've always said 'The Guidelines' but I suppose 'These' makes > sense. But as Lou notes these would have to be checked in each case. Yes, it does seem that "these Guidelines" refers to the current version whereas "the Guidelines" refers to the work as a whole, in whatever edition. That still leaves quite a few instances of "the Guidelines" that should be changed to "these Guidelines", some fine day when we've run out of other things to do. I've created the lowest priority ticket possible: http://purl.org/TEI/BUGS/3603071 --K. From mholmes at uvic.ca Sat Feb 2 01:40:41 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 22:40:41 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <510C89F7.10408@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> <510600D6.50303@uvic.ca> <510C89F7.10408@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <510CB4E9.70205@uvic.ca> On 13-02-01 07:37 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Regarding the display of footnotes in the HTML version of the > Guidelines, Martin says: > > On 1/27/13 11:38 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > > [. . .] > >> I've also been meaning to make those footnotes actually pop up >> next to the footnote number so you don't bounce down to the bottom of >> the page and bounce back. Does everyone think that would be a good idea? >> It would be like the footnotes on a page like this: >> >> <http://bcgenesis.uvic.ca/getDoc.htm?id=V465HB01.scx> >> >> (Scroll down till you see the grey button with "1" on it, and click it.) > > Do these meet accessibility guidelines? I would prefer that any > solution we implement be fully accessible. On that page, the footnotes are all listed at the bottom of the document. IIRC, what I do is to make a copy of the footnote node, strip its @id attribute (so that it doesn't end up with the same id as the original), and then show it in the popup. The original footnote is still there to view if you want to scroll down to it. I don't think there are any accessibility issues with this -- a screen reader, for instance, can read the whole page with footnotes included, and can also read the popup when it appears presumably -- but I'm not an expert in accessibility. Cheers, Martin > > --Kevin > -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 02:47:13 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 07:47:13 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Upgrading TEI Project on SF In-Reply-To: <510C802A.4070404@ultraslavonic.info> References: <50BF7A22.7060401@it.ox.ac.uk> <50BF82FF.3030804@uvic.ca> <50BF8487.6020103@it.ox.ac.uk> <50C0A98C.5090007@kcl.ac.uk>,<510C802A.4070404@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <al4ml6pbluham0jqkhtlf3pf.1359791230777@email.android.com> I'm happy to take the lead in this. I seem to remember that gabby or someone said epidoc was going to do this.... did it? Anyone else upgraded their other projects? Any side effects? Problems? JamesC Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: So, now that our release is out the door, I think we'd better return to this: http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2012/016726.html As Gabby noted ... On 12/6/12 9:19 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > On 2012-12-05 17:29, James Cummings wrote: >>> Does SF have a deadline by which we need to move? >> >> Not that I've seen so far. > > They say "in the first quarter of 2013", which I think implies that if > we haven't upgraded by end March, they'll probably do it for us soon > thereafter. You'll recall that I started working out a plan for this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E0aV-E75VOLE_TCrEXVVqaez-9zlyDcpCTeF5QP2BPI/edit Maybe we can get a volunteer or two to lead this initiative? --Kevin -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 05:47:02 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:47:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: RE: @resp In-Reply-To: <02dc01ce0124$fc59b130$f50d1390$@ijs.si> References: <02dc01ce0124$fc59b130$f50d1390$@ijs.si> Message-ID: <510CEEA6.2040006@retired.ox.ac.uk> Tomaz has a good point here. Presumably att.editLike should inherit the @source attribute from att.sourced ? I am waiting for someone to want @source to be added to att.global... -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: @resp Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:09:19 +0100 From: Tomaz Erjavec <tomaz.erjavec at ijs.si> To: 'Lou Burnard' <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> CC: <TEI-L at LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU> ... @source is the only attribute defined in the att.source class (with quote q writing egXML as members). But @source is also defined (directly, not via class) as an attribute of att.editLike, so in fact quite a lot of other elements already have it. Is there any particular reason that it is defined in two different places? I'd say it only confuses things. And, yes, it would probably be a good idea to have source on even more elements, e.g. person and all its descendants. Best, Toma? - From philomousos at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 10:05:25 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:05:25 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Upgrading TEI Project on SF In-Reply-To: <al4ml6pbluham0jqkhtlf3pf.1359791230777@email.android.com> References: <50BF7A22.7060401@it.ox.ac.uk> <50BF82FF.3030804@uvic.ca> <50BF8487.6020103@it.ox.ac.uk> <50C0A98C.5090007@kcl.ac.uk>, <510C802A.4070404@ultraslavonic.info> <al4ml6pbluham0jqkhtlf3pf.1359791230777@email.android.com> Message-ID: <E52D29A0-15A7-459C-89EE-3557A8915CE7@gmail.com> We haven't done EpiDoc yet (unless Gabby did it quietly and didn't tell anyone). We're on the same deadline as TEI though. If we get around to it soonish, I (and/or Gabby) will let you know what happened. I'm happy to help move this along. Hugh On Feb 2, 2013, at 2:47 , James Cummings <James.Cummings at IT.OX.AC.UK> wrote: > > > I'm happy to take the lead in this. I seem to remember that gabby or someone said epidoc was going to do this.... did it? Anyone else upgraded their other projects? Any side effects? Problems? > > JamesC > > Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > > > So, now that our release is out the door, I think we'd better return to > this: > > http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2012/016726.html > > As Gabby noted ... > > On 12/6/12 9:19 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> On 2012-12-05 17:29, James Cummings wrote: >>>> Does SF have a deadline by which we need to move? >>> >>> Not that I've seen so far. >> >> They say "in the first quarter of 2013", which I think implies that if >> we haven't upgraded by end March, they'll probably do it for us soon >> thereafter. > > You'll recall that I started working out a plan for this: > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E0aV-E75VOLE_TCrEXVVqaez-9zlyDcpCTeF5QP2BPI/edit > > Maybe we can get a volunteer or two to lead this initiative? > > --Kevin > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Sat Feb 2 12:07:26 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 09:07:26 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: RE: @resp In-Reply-To: <510CEEA6.2040006@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <02dc01ce0124$fc59b130$f50d1390$@ijs.si> <510CEEA6.2040006@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510D47CE.7050802@uvic.ca> On 13-02-02 02:47 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > Tomaz has a good point here. Presumably att.editLike should inherit the > @source attribute from att.sourced ? > > I am waiting for someone to want @source to be added to att.global... And that would be me. I can imagine a use-case for virtually any element. I'd also like @resp to be global, incidentally -- same argument. I need to assign responsibility for <pron>, <seg>, <def> and all sorts of other bits and pieces in a dictionary project I'm working on. Cheers, Martin > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE: @resp > Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:09:19 +0100 > From: Tomaz Erjavec <tomaz.erjavec at ijs.si> > To: 'Lou Burnard' <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> > CC: <TEI-L at LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU> > > ... > > @source is the only attribute defined in the att.source class (with > quote q writing egXML as members). > But @source is also defined (directly, not via class) as an attribute of > att.editLike, so in fact quite a lot of other elements already have it. > Is there any particular reason that it is defined in two different > places? I'd say it only confuses things. > And, yes, it would probably be a good idea to have source on even more > elements, e.g. person and all its descendants. > Best, > Toma? > > - > From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 13:04:34 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 18:04:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @rows="0", @cols="0"? In-Reply-To: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> References: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <510D5532.8070505@kcl.ac.uk> I feel as though the answer to this ought to be yes (even if only in a hypothetical, never-really-going-to-happen kind of way) but I'm not sure I can think of even that. Trying to twist my mind... Would you ever get a case when a table (in the proper sense of a series of rows, each cell in which lines up semantically with a column heading above) has both spanning cells and absent cells (that would need to be so marked)? So if the table has columns A, B, C, and rows 1, 2, 3, with a structure something like: <table cols="4"> <row> <cell role="label">A</cell> <cell role="label">B</cell> <cell role="label">C</cell> </row> <row> <cell role="label">1</cell> <cell>1A</cell> <cell>1B</cell> <cell>1C</cell> </row> <row> <cell role="label">2</cell> <cell cols="2">2A</cell> <cell>3C</cell> </row> <row> <cell role="label">3</cell> <cell cols="2">3A</cell> <cell>3B</cell> </row> </table> How can you tell from the markup (given the content is arbitrary) that row 3 does not have the same structure as row 2? Would a <cell cols="0"/> in row 2 make it clearer that there is no value for column "B" in that row? That's the best I can do. I'm not sure even I'm convinced. G On 01/02/2013 18:33, Martin Holmes wrote: > I'm working on this ticket: > > http://purl.org/TEI/FR/3511398 > > where the objective is to express any constraint on an attribute value > which is currently only expressed in a valDesc as Schematron so it can > be enforced. So far the only candidates I've found for this are @rows > and @cols in att.tableDecoration. These are data.count, which permits > zero, but the valDescs would seem to imply that zero is wrong. > > Can anyone think of a scenario in which it would be reasonable to have: > > <row cols="0"> > > or > > <cell rows="0">? > > Cheers, > Martin > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 13:27:21 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 18:27:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: RE: @resp In-Reply-To: <510D47CE.7050802@uvic.ca> References: <02dc01ce0124$fc59b130$f50d1390$@ijs.si> <510CEEA6.2040006@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510D47CE.7050802@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <510D5A89.1020502@kcl.ac.uk> Seconded. I (as I pointed out in another venue recently) am regularly surprised to re-learn that @resp isn't global already. I can't imagine any element that I would not want to be able to say either who is responsible for the decisions it represents, or from what publication the information so tagged comes. (Certainly everything in msDesc, as well as editLike, at the very least.) G On 02/02/2013 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-02-02 02:47 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> Tomaz has a good point here. Presumably att.editLike should inherit the >> @source attribute from att.sourced ? >> >> I am waiting for someone to want @source to be added to att.global... > > And that would be me. I can imagine a use-case for virtually any > element. I'd also like @resp to be global, incidentally -- same > argument. I need to assign responsibility for <pron>, <seg>, <def> and > all sorts of other bits and pieces in a dictionary project I'm working on. > > Cheers, > Martin > >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: RE: @resp >> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:09:19 +0100 >> From: Tomaz Erjavec <tomaz.erjavec at ijs.si> >> To: 'Lou Burnard' <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> >> CC: <TEI-L at LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU> >> >> ... >> >> @source is the only attribute defined in the att.source class (with >> quote q writing egXML as members). >> But @source is also defined (directly, not via class) as an attribute of >> att.editLike, so in fact quite a lot of other elements already have it. >> Is there any particular reason that it is defined in two different >> places? I'd say it only confuses things. >> And, yes, it would probably be a good idea to have source on even more >> elements, e.g. person and all its descendants. >> Best, >> Toma? >> >> - >> -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 14:14:13 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 19:14:13 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: RE: @resp In-Reply-To: <510D5A89.1020502@kcl.ac.uk> References: <02dc01ce0124$fc59b130$f50d1390$@ijs.si> <510CEEA6.2040006@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510D47CE.7050802@uvic.ca> <510D5A89.1020502@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510D6585.9070900@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi all, I can see att.responsibility being made available more generally (I'm very reluctant to say globally until I've really sat down and thought about the implications of that...) I understand it may have once(?) been intended for editorial intrusions into a transcription or edition but believe we've generalised out such indications to refer to any markup or encoding. Maybe it was always intended as such. I can see arguments for @source (which is where this started right?) on more things and that att.editLike should get it from the att.source class. But, I think we have to be careful that it is available only on things which can be classified as containing a 'quotation or citation' in some way since it "provides a pointer to the bibliographical source from which a quotation or citation is drawn." Either that, or this definition would have to be changed. Why does egXML get @source and not eg incidentally? -James On 02/02/13 18:27, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Seconded. > > I (as I pointed out in another venue recently) am regularly surprised to > re-learn that @resp isn't global already. I can't imagine any element > that I would not want to be able to say either who is responsible for > the decisions it represents, or from what publication the information so > tagged comes. (Certainly everything in msDesc, as well as editLike, at > the very least.) > > G > > On 02/02/2013 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: >> On 13-02-02 02:47 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>> Tomaz has a good point here. Presumably att.editLike should inherit the >>> @source attribute from att.sourced ? >>> >>> I am waiting for someone to want @source to be added to att.global... >> >> And that would be me. I can imagine a use-case for virtually any >> element. I'd also like @resp to be global, incidentally -- same >> argument. I need to assign responsibility for <pron>, <seg>, <def> and >> all sorts of other bits and pieces in a dictionary project I'm working on. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >>> >>> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: RE: @resp >>> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:09:19 +0100 >>> From: Tomaz Erjavec <tomaz.erjavec at ijs.si> >>> To: 'Lou Burnard' <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> >>> CC: <TEI-L at LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU> >>> >>> ... >>> >>> @source is the only attribute defined in the att.source class (with >>> quote q writing egXML as members). >>> But @source is also defined (directly, not via class) as an attribute of >>> att.editLike, so in fact quite a lot of other elements already have it. >>> Is there any particular reason that it is defined in two different >>> places? I'd say it only confuses things. >>> And, yes, it would probably be a good idea to have source on even more >>> elements, e.g. person and all its descendants. >>> Best, >>> Toma? >>> >>> - >>> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 14:39:46 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 19:39:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: RE: @resp In-Reply-To: <510D6585.9070900@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <02dc01ce0124$fc59b130$f50d1390$@ijs.si> <510CEEA6.2040006@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510D47CE.7050802@uvic.ca> <510D5A89.1020502@kcl.ac.uk> <510D6585.9070900@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510D6B82.4060109@kcl.ac.uk> Surely the definition of @source only contains the word "quotation" because it was designed for <q>, <quote>, etc. If we consider it a suitable mechanism for indicating the bibliographic source of a set of dimensions, for example, then that definition would have to change. [Aside: when marking up apparatus criticus, I use @resp to point to bibiographical references for readings and conjectures, not to persons. Does this mean @source would be more appropriate for this use?] G On 02/02/2013 19:14, James Cummings wrote: > Hi all, > > I can see att.responsibility being made available more generally > (I'm very reluctant to say globally until I've really sat down > and thought about the implications of that...) I understand it > may have once(?) been intended for editorial intrusions into a > transcription or edition but believe we've generalised out such > indications to refer to any markup or encoding. Maybe it was > always intended as such. > > I can see arguments for @source (which is where this started > right?) on more things and that att.editLike should get it from > the att.source class. But, I think we have to be careful that it > is available only on things which can be classified as containing > a 'quotation or citation' in some way since it "provides a > pointer to the bibliographical source from which a quotation or > citation is drawn." Either that, or this definition would have > to be changed. > > Why does egXML get @source and not eg incidentally? > > -James > > > > On 02/02/13 18:27, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> Seconded. >> >> I (as I pointed out in another venue recently) am regularly surprised to >> re-learn that @resp isn't global already. I can't imagine any element >> that I would not want to be able to say either who is responsible for >> the decisions it represents, or from what publication the information so >> tagged comes. (Certainly everything in msDesc, as well as editLike, at >> the very least.) >> >> G >> >> On 02/02/2013 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> On 13-02-02 02:47 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>>> Tomaz has a good point here. Presumably att.editLike should inherit the >>>> @source attribute from att.sourced ? >>>> >>>> I am waiting for someone to want @source to be added to att.global... >>> >>> And that would be me. I can imagine a use-case for virtually any >>> element. I'd also like @resp to be global, incidentally -- same >>> argument. I need to assign responsibility for <pron>, <seg>, <def> and >>> all sorts of other bits and pieces in a dictionary project I'm working on. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>> Subject: RE: @resp >>>> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:09:19 +0100 >>>> From: Tomaz Erjavec <tomaz.erjavec at ijs.si> >>>> To: 'Lou Burnard' <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> >>>> CC: <TEI-L at LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU> >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> @source is the only attribute defined in the att.source class (with >>>> quote q writing egXML as members). >>>> But @source is also defined (directly, not via class) as an attribute of >>>> att.editLike, so in fact quite a lot of other elements already have it. >>>> Is there any particular reason that it is defined in two different >>>> places? I'd say it only confuses things. >>>> And, yes, it would probably be a good idea to have source on even more >>>> elements, e.g. person and all its descendants. >>>> Best, >>>> Toma? >>>> >>>> - >>>> >> > > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sat Feb 2 17:08:05 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:08:05 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml: the missing chapter Message-ID: <510D8E45.5000104@ultraslavonic.info> Folks, I just came across Source/Guidelines/en/SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml . From comments in the file, it looks like John Walsh, Natasha Smith, and others from the SIG on Libraries were once involved in drafting this but it never made it into the Guidelines. Does anyone know whether this was rejected for inclusion in the Guidelines, or was the work just never completed? It includes a number of things that made their way in some form into the latest revision of the Best Practices for TEI in Libraries (though I have quibbles with how many things are stated in "SH"), and I was thinking that since we decided to incorporate things from the Best Practices into the Guidelines, it seems like a good way to start would be to get SH into a good enough form for inclusion in the Guidelines. I'm willing to take the lead on that and ask for feedback on my revised draft from the SIG on Libraries. Objections? Does anyone have notes on previous objections to the text, things that were meant to be incorporated, etc.? --Kevin From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sat Feb 2 17:10:19 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:10:19 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] outdated navbar and footer on tei.sourceforge.net Message-ID: <510D8ECB.6070602@ultraslavonic.info> The navbar and footer on tei.sourceforge.net are old snapshots of what was being served by OpenCMS, but a number of things have changed since this was last updated. Could someone update this? Better yet, is there a way of incorporating this into the build process, much like we've done with the navbar on all HTML pages of P5? From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 18:06:02 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 23:06:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] outdated navbar and footer on tei.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <510D8ECB.6070602@ultraslavonic.info> References: <510D8ECB.6070602@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <emypild5wfqv1m6ovxdg52wa.1359846360300@email.android.com> I had previously manually cut and pasted this... since the download package is copied to sourceforge it seems possible that we could copy a new version of this file at the same time? JamesC Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: The navbar and footer on tei.sourceforge.net are old snapshots of what was being served by OpenCMS, but a number of things have changed since this was last updated. Could someone update this? Better yet, is there a way of incorporating this into the build process, much like we've done with the navbar on all HTML pages of P5? -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 18:06:43 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 23:06:43 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml: the missing chapter In-Reply-To: <510D8E45.5000104@ultraslavonic.info> References: <510D8E45.5000104@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <510D9C03.2030206@retired.ox.ac.uk> Well, here's my understanding of the history: Chapter SH was originally called "The Independent Header" and was drafted for P3 by Rich Giordano. This survived into P4, but in P5 was removed. In 2005 or so, when Natasha and John were both on Council, they volunteered to rework it as a survey of the way libraries in practice mapped TEI Header elements to other metadata standards. There are a few mentions of this work as being ongoing in the minutes of that year -- not having all the minutes to hand I am not sure what happened to this work -- but doubt John can. On 02/02/13 22:08, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Folks, > > I just came across Source/Guidelines/en/SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml . > From comments in the file, it looks like John Walsh, Natasha Smith, > and others from the SIG on Libraries were once involved in drafting this > but it never made it into the Guidelines. > > Does anyone know whether this was rejected for inclusion in the > Guidelines, or was the work just never completed? It includes a number > of things that made their way in some form into the latest revision of > the Best Practices for TEI in Libraries (though I have quibbles with how > many things are stated in "SH"), and I was thinking that since we > decided to incorporate things from the Best Practices into the > Guidelines, it seems like a good way to start would be to get SH into a > good enough form for inclusion in the Guidelines. I'm willing to take > the lead on that and ask for feedback on my revised draft from the SIG > on Libraries. > > Objections? Does anyone have notes on previous objections to the text, > things that were meant to be incorporated, etc.? > > --Kevin > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 18:12:47 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 23:12:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml: the missing chapter In-Reply-To: <510D9C03.2030206@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <510D8E45.5000104@ultraslavonic.info> <510D9C03.2030206@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510D9D6F.4090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> Ah, found it. http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm30.xml (Minutes of council meeting in Berlin, April 2007 at which all P5 chapters were reviewed) "SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml MD recommends chapter be dropped. JW (co-author of the re-write) concurs. JW was assigned to draft a few paragraphs discussing the relationship between the TEI Header and other standards (including MARC and Dublin Core) in general terms, without detailed mappings. Action 52: JW TRAC http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac/TEIP5/ticket/336 . Draft paras on metadata standards 2007-05-05 Action 53: SB put JW paras in appropriate place at end of HD 2007-05-12" On 02/02/13 23:06, Lou Burnard wrote: > Well, here's my understanding of the history: > > Chapter SH was originally called "The Independent Header" and was > drafted for P3 by Rich Giordano. This survived into P4, but in P5 was > removed. In 2005 or so, when Natasha and John were both on Council, they > volunteered to rework it as a survey of the way libraries in practice > mapped TEI Header elements to other metadata standards. There are a few > mentions of this work as being ongoing in the minutes of that year -- > not having all the minutes to hand I am not sure what happened to this > work -- but doubt John can. > > > > On 02/02/13 22:08, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> Folks, >> >> I just came across Source/Guidelines/en/SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml . >> From comments in the file, it looks like John Walsh, Natasha Smith, >> and others from the SIG on Libraries were once involved in drafting this >> but it never made it into the Guidelines. >> >> Does anyone know whether this was rejected for inclusion in the >> Guidelines, or was the work just never completed? It includes a number >> of things that made their way in some form into the latest revision of >> the Best Practices for TEI in Libraries (though I have quibbles with how >> many things are stated in "SH"), and I was thinking that since we >> decided to incorporate things from the Best Practices into the >> Guidelines, it seems like a good way to start would be to get SH into a >> good enough form for inclusion in the Guidelines. I'm willing to take >> the lead on that and ask for feedback on my revised draft from the SIG >> on Libraries. >> >> Objections? Does anyone have notes on previous objections to the text, >> things that were meant to be incorporated, etc.? >> >> --Kevin >> > From dsewell at virginia.edu Sun Feb 3 20:57:16 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 20:57:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Updating TEI "Customiztion" page to reflect current reality Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302032053340.17710@tadai.local> Council, I just posted a note to TEI-L regarding the disappearance of the "TEI for Dictionaries" customization. I updated the web page to remove it, but I believe that the Customization page (http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/index.xml) still needs some changes to bring it in line with what people see in Roma, per discusson a few months ago: http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2012/016181.html I'm happy to implement any requested changes if there is a consensus on what to change. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400314, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4314 USA Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Feb 3 21:07:27 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 18:07:27 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] @rows="0", @cols="0"? In-Reply-To: <510D5532.8070505@kcl.ac.uk> References: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> <510D5532.8070505@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <510F17DF.6030001@uvic.ca> I'm not sure I understand Gaby's example below, but I have a feeling that if the intention is to say that it's cell B that's missing from row 2, and cell C that's missing from row 3, then I think empty cells would be included; as far as I can see, if the second cell spans both columns, it somehow constitutes both of them. Next question: given that we mostly seem to feel that values of zero are wrong, would we go so far as to forbid them through Schematron (given that every Schematron check adds to build time and code complexity), or should we just quietly allow people to perpetrate zeroes without sanction? Cheers, Martin On 13-02-02 10:04 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > I feel as though the answer to this ought to be yes (even if only in a > hypothetical, never-really-going-to-happen kind of way) but I'm not sure > I can think of even that. Trying to twist my mind... > > Would you ever get a case when a table (in the proper sense of a series > of rows, each cell in which lines up semantically with a column heading > above) has both spanning cells and absent cells (that would need to be > so marked)? > > So if the table has columns A, B, C, and rows 1, 2, 3, with a structure > something like: > > <table cols="4"> > <row> > <cell role="label">A</cell> > <cell role="label">B</cell> > <cell role="label">C</cell> > </row> > <row> > <cell role="label">1</cell> > <cell>1A</cell> > <cell>1B</cell> > <cell>1C</cell> > </row> > <row> > <cell role="label">2</cell> > <cell cols="2">2A</cell> > <cell>3C</cell> > </row> > <row> > <cell role="label">3</cell> > <cell cols="2">3A</cell> > <cell>3B</cell> > </row> > </table> > > How can you tell from the markup (given the content is arbitrary) that > row 3 does not have the same structure as row 2? Would a <cell > cols="0"/> in row 2 make it clearer that there is no value for column > "B" in that row? > > That's the best I can do. I'm not sure even I'm convinced. > > G > > On 01/02/2013 18:33, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I'm working on this ticket: >> >> http://purl.org/TEI/FR/3511398 >> >> where the objective is to express any constraint on an attribute value >> which is currently only expressed in a valDesc as Schematron so it can >> be enforced. So far the only candidates I've found for this are @rows >> and @cols in att.tableDecoration. These are data.count, which permits >> zero, but the valDescs would seem to imply that zero is wrong. >> >> Can anyone think of a scenario in which it would be reasonable to have: >> >> <row cols="0"> >> >> or >> >> <cell rows="0">? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> > From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Mon Feb 4 06:16:55 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 11:16:55 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @rows="0", @cols="0"? In-Reply-To: <510F17DF.6030001@uvic.ca> References: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> <510D5532.8070505@kcl.ac.uk> <510F17DF.6030001@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <510F98A7.5060700@kcl.ac.uk> Happy to concede that my examples make no sense. :-) However, what *harm* would a value of zero actually do in there, if someone inserted one in a table because their processing (or their understanding) expected it? I kind of vote for ignoring it... G On 2013-02-04 02:07, Martin Holmes wrote: > I'm not sure I understand Gaby's example below, but I have a feeling > that if the intention is to say that it's cell B that's missing from row > 2, and cell C that's missing from row 3, then I think empty cells would > be included; as far as I can see, if the second cell spans both columns, > it somehow constitutes both of them. > > Next question: given that we mostly seem to feel that values of zero are > wrong, would we go so far as to forbid them through Schematron (given > that every Schematron check adds to build time and code complexity), or > should we just quietly allow people to perpetrate zeroes without sanction? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-02-02 10:04 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> I feel as though the answer to this ought to be yes (even if only in a >> hypothetical, never-really-going-to-happen kind of way) but I'm not sure >> I can think of even that. Trying to twist my mind... >> >> Would you ever get a case when a table (in the proper sense of a series >> of rows, each cell in which lines up semantically with a column heading >> above) has both spanning cells and absent cells (that would need to be >> so marked)? >> >> So if the table has columns A, B, C, and rows 1, 2, 3, with a structure >> something like: >> >> <table cols="4"> >> <row> >> <cell role="label">A</cell> >> <cell role="label">B</cell> >> <cell role="label">C</cell> >> </row> >> <row> >> <cell role="label">1</cell> >> <cell>1A</cell> >> <cell>1B</cell> >> <cell>1C</cell> >> </row> >> <row> >> <cell role="label">2</cell> >> <cell cols="2">2A</cell> >> <cell>3C</cell> >> </row> >> <row> >> <cell role="label">3</cell> >> <cell cols="2">3A</cell> >> <cell>3B</cell> >> </row> >> </table> >> >> How can you tell from the markup (given the content is arbitrary) that >> row 3 does not have the same structure as row 2? Would a <cell >> cols="0"/> in row 2 make it clearer that there is no value for column >> "B" in that row? >> >> That's the best I can do. I'm not sure even I'm convinced. >> >> G >> >> On 01/02/2013 18:33, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> I'm working on this ticket: >>> >>> http://purl.org/TEI/FR/3511398 >>> >>> where the objective is to express any constraint on an attribute value >>> which is currently only expressed in a valDesc as Schematron so it can >>> be enforced. So far the only candidates I've found for this are @rows >>> and @cols in att.tableDecoration. These are data.count, which permits >>> zero, but the valDescs would seem to imply that zero is wrong. >>> >>> Can anyone think of a scenario in which it would be reasonable to have: >>> >>> <row cols="0"> >>> >>> or >>> >>> <cell rows="0">? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >> -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 4 08:47:36 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:47:36 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @rows="0", @cols="0"? In-Reply-To: <510F17DF.6030001@uvic.ca> References: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> <510D5532.8070505@kcl.ac.uk> <510F17DF.6030001@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <7A28AF7E-53C1-4CD1-AAA2-0BF512423DB2@it.ox.ac.uk> On 4 Feb 2013, at 02:07, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > Next question: given that we mostly seem to feel that values of zero are > wrong, would we go so far as to forbid them through Schematron (given > that every Schematron check adds to build time and code complexity), or > should we just quietly allow people to perpetrate zeroes without sanction? > you don't need Schematron, this is normal RELAX NG: <rng:data type="nonNegativeInteger"> <rng:param name="minInclusive">1</rng:param> </rng:data> or the like (untested). -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Mon Feb 4 15:16:12 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 15:16:12 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Updating TEI "Customiztion" page to reflect current reality In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302032053340.17710@tadai.local> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302032053340.17710@tadai.local> Message-ID: <5110170C.903@ultraslavonic.info> That discussion was scheduled for Oxford: http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2012-09 but the minutes pretty much just show the agenda items without any resolution or active items. Looking at the revisionDesc for http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/index.xml and the diff list in OpenCMS, I definitely made a number of adjustments after the meeting (based, I suppose, on my own notes, which I no longer have). Somehow removing the dictionaries customization didn't make that list. If anyone remembers anything else that was supposed to happen, please let me know. --Kevin On 2/3/2013 8:57 PM, David Sewell wrote: > Council, > > I just posted a note to TEI-L regarding the disappearance of the "TEI > for Dictionaries" customization. I updated the web page to remove it, > but I believe that the Customization page > (http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/index.xml) still needs > some changes to bring it in line with what people see in Roma, per > discusson a few months ago: > > http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2012/016181.html > > I'm happy to implement any requested changes if there is a consensus on > what to change. > > David > From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Feb 4 15:22:40 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 12:22:40 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] @rows="0", @cols="0"? In-Reply-To: <7A28AF7E-53C1-4CD1-AAA2-0BF512423DB2@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> <510D5532.8070505@kcl.ac.uk> <510F17DF.6030001@uvic.ca> <7A28AF7E-53C1-4CD1-AAA2-0BF512423DB2@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51101890.4070304@uvic.ca> On 13-02-04 05:47 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 4 Feb 2013, at 02:07, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > >> Next question: given that we mostly seem to feel that values of zero are >> wrong, would we go so far as to forbid them through Schematron (given >> that every Schematron check adds to build time and code complexity), or >> should we just quietly allow people to perpetrate zeroes without sanction? >> > you don't need Schematron, this is normal RELAX NG: > > <rng:data type="nonNegativeInteger"> > <rng:param name="minInclusive">1</rng:param> > </rng:data> > > or the like (untested). Wouldn't that involve changing the datatype from data.count? Cheers, Martin > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Feb 4 15:33:59 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 12:33:59 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Updating TEI "Customiztion" page to reflect current reality In-Reply-To: <5110170C.903@ultraslavonic.info> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302032053340.17710@tadai.local> <5110170C.903@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51101B37.9040908@uvic.ca> The minutes show lots of discussion and action items: <http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm52.xml> See the section on "Roma Templates and Example Customizations" including this: Action on KH: remove ?experimental? and ?restricted? language from TEI Customization page. Use instead: ?the following are not available as DTD or XSD?. and that shows up on the actions page as done: <http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Oxford2012-Actions> I don't remember any specific discussion of the Dictionaries customization, but it's possible we mentioned it and I failed to record it in the minutes. Cheers, Martin On 13-02-04 12:16 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > That discussion was scheduled for Oxford: > > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2012-09 > > but the minutes pretty much just show the agenda items without any > resolution or active items. Looking at the revisionDesc for > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/index.xml and the diff > list in OpenCMS, I definitely made a number of adjustments after the > meeting (based, I suppose, on my own notes, which I no longer have). > Somehow removing the dictionaries customization didn't make that list. > > If anyone remembers anything else that was supposed to happen, please > let me know. > > --Kevin > > On 2/3/2013 8:57 PM, David Sewell wrote: >> Council, >> >> I just posted a note to TEI-L regarding the disappearance of the "TEI >> for Dictionaries" customization. I updated the web page to remove it, >> but I believe that the Customization page >> (http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/index.xml) still needs >> some changes to bring it in line with what people see in Roma, per >> discusson a few months ago: >> >> http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2012/016181.html >> >> I'm happy to implement any requested changes if there is a consensus on >> what to change. >> >> David >> -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Mon Feb 4 15:42:19 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 15:42:19 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Updating TEI "Customiztion" page to reflect current reality In-Reply-To: <51101B37.9040908@uvic.ca> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302032053340.17710@tadai.local> <5110170C.903@ultraslavonic.info> <51101B37.9040908@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51101D2B.2080607@ultraslavonic.info> Oh yes. I was looking farther down the page: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm52.xml#body.1_div.3_div.4_div.1 perhaps the text there was left over from the agenda pasted into the minutes and should now be removed? On 2/4/2013 3:33 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > The minutes show lots of discussion and action items: > > <http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm52.xml> > > See the section on "Roma Templates and Example Customizations" including > this: > > Action on KH: remove ?experimental? and ?restricted? language from TEI > Customization page. Use instead: ?the following are not available as DTD > or XSD?. > > and that shows up on the actions page as done: > > <http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Oxford2012-Actions> > > I don't remember any specific discussion of the Dictionaries > customization, but it's possible we mentioned it and I failed to record > it in the minutes. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-02-04 12:16 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> That discussion was scheduled for Oxford: >> >> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2012-09 >> >> but the minutes pretty much just show the agenda items without any >> resolution or active items. Looking at the revisionDesc for >> http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/index.xml and the diff >> list in OpenCMS, I definitely made a number of adjustments after the >> meeting (based, I suppose, on my own notes, which I no longer have). >> Somehow removing the dictionaries customization didn't make that list. >> >> If anyone remembers anything else that was supposed to happen, please >> let me know. >> >> --Kevin >> >> On 2/3/2013 8:57 PM, David Sewell wrote: >>> Council, >>> >>> I just posted a note to TEI-L regarding the disappearance of the "TEI >>> for Dictionaries" customization. I updated the web page to remove it, >>> but I believe that the Customization page >>> (http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/index.xml) still needs >>> some changes to bring it in line with what people see in Roma, per >>> discusson a few months ago: >>> >>> http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2012/016181.html >>> >>> I'm happy to implement any requested changes if there is a consensus on >>> what to change. >>> >>> David >>> > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 4 15:53:37 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 20:53:37 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @rows="0", @cols="0"? In-Reply-To: <51101890.4070304@uvic.ca> References: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> <510D5532.8070505@kcl.ac.uk> <510F17DF.6030001@uvic.ca> <7A28AF7E-53C1-4CD1-AAA2-0BF512423DB2@it.ox.ac.uk> <51101890.4070304@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <501CB540-DDF9-46A5-9E42-CC6C8E595DE3@it.ox.ac.uk> On 4 Feb 2013, at 20:22, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote:you don't need Schematron, this is normal RELAX NG: >> >> <rng:data type="nonNegativeInteger"> >> <rng:param name="minInclusive">1</rng:param> >> </rng:data> >> >> or the like (untested). > > Wouldn't that involve changing the datatype from data.count? yes, which is no problem, surely? -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Feb 4 16:38:19 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:38:19 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Updating TEI "Customiztion" page to reflect current reality In-Reply-To: <51101D2B.2080607@ultraslavonic.info> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302032053340.17710@tadai.local> <5110170C.903@ultraslavonic.info> <51101B37.9040908@uvic.ca> <51101D2B.2080607@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51102A4B.3090100@uvic.ca> I think what happened was that we had two overlapping topics scheduled in the agenda, and we drifted from one to the other. However, this bit: "On http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/ and http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/odds.xml, are any modules labeled as experimental that should not be, or any modules not labeled but should be? (Note that currently the dictionaries module is documented differently on these two pages.) SR said that none are experimental any more." suggests that we did raise the issue of the Dictionaries customization, and that Sebastian believed it was no longer experimental so it should stay on the page. We all presumably believed he was correct at the time, so there was no action to remove it. Cheers, Martin On 13-02-04 12:42 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Oh yes. I was looking farther down the page: > > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm52.xml#body.1_div.3_div.4_div.1 > > perhaps the text there was left over from the agenda pasted into the > minutes and should now be removed? > > On 2/4/2013 3:33 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> The minutes show lots of discussion and action items: >> >> <http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm52.xml> >> >> See the section on "Roma Templates and Example Customizations" including >> this: >> >> Action on KH: remove ?experimental? and ?restricted? language from TEI >> Customization page. Use instead: ?the following are not available as DTD >> or XSD?. >> >> and that shows up on the actions page as done: >> >> <http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Oxford2012-Actions> >> >> I don't remember any specific discussion of the Dictionaries >> customization, but it's possible we mentioned it and I failed to record >> it in the minutes. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-02-04 12:16 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> That discussion was scheduled for Oxford: >>> >>> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2012-09 >>> >>> but the minutes pretty much just show the agenda items without any >>> resolution or active items. Looking at the revisionDesc for >>> http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/index.xml and the diff >>> list in OpenCMS, I definitely made a number of adjustments after the >>> meeting (based, I suppose, on my own notes, which I no longer have). >>> Somehow removing the dictionaries customization didn't make that list. >>> >>> If anyone remembers anything else that was supposed to happen, please >>> let me know. >>> >>> --Kevin >>> >>> On 2/3/2013 8:57 PM, David Sewell wrote: >>>> Council, >>>> >>>> I just posted a note to TEI-L regarding the disappearance of the "TEI >>>> for Dictionaries" customization. I updated the web page to remove it, >>>> but I believe that the Customization page >>>> (http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/index.xml) still needs >>>> some changes to bring it in line with what people see in Roma, per >>>> discusson a few months ago: >>>> >>>> http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2012/016181.html >>>> >>>> I'm happy to implement any requested changes if there is a consensus on >>>> what to change. >>>> >>>> David >>>> >> -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Feb 4 16:46:18 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:46:18 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] @rows="0", @cols="0"? In-Reply-To: <501CB540-DDF9-46A5-9E42-CC6C8E595DE3@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> <510D5532.8070505@kcl.ac.uk> <510F17DF.6030001@uvic.ca> <7A28AF7E-53C1-4CD1-AAA2-0BF512423DB2@it.ox.ac.uk> <51101890.4070304@uvic.ca> <501CB540-DDF9-46A5-9E42-CC6C8E595DE3@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51102C2A.6080401@uvic.ca> On 13-02-04 12:53 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 4 Feb 2013, at 20:22, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote:you don't need Schematron, this is normal RELAX NG: >>> >>> <rng:data type="nonNegativeInteger"> >>> <rng:param name="minInclusive">1</rng:param> >>> </rng:data> >>> >>> or the like (untested). >> >> Wouldn't that involve changing the datatype from data.count? > > yes, which is no problem, surely? Not as far as I know, but I thought it was preferable to have our datatypes declared as TEI macros such as data.count rather than direct declaration as RNG. Is there any policy on this? Should we be creating data.posInt or something for attributes like this, or just defining them directly? Personally, for rows and cols, I'm sufficiently convinced that someone, somewhere, will want to have zero-column rows and zero-row cells that I don't think this is necessary, but I wanted to raise it before closing the ticket on valDescs -> Schematron. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 4 16:54:45 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 21:54:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @rows="0", @cols="0"? In-Reply-To: <51102C2A.6080401@uvic.ca> References: <510C0A8C.4010201@uvic.ca> <510D5532.8070505@kcl.ac.uk> <510F17DF.6030001@uvic.ca> <7A28AF7E-53C1-4CD1-AAA2-0BF512423DB2@it.ox.ac.uk> <51101890.4070304@uvic.ca> <501CB540-DDF9-46A5-9E42-CC6C8E595DE3@it.ox.ac.uk> <51102C2A.6080401@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <096CF140-5697-4842-9586-650CA1A11A51@it.ox.ac.uk> On 4 Feb 2013, at 21:46, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > > Not as far as I know, but I thought it was preferable to have our datatypes declared as TEI macros such as data.count rather than direct declaration as RNG. Is there any policy on this? case law is fairly old. and we do have other uses of rng:data. I wouldnt worry too much about changing it. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 5 02:34:58 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 07:34:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5110B622.8030806@it.ox.ac.uk> On 01/02/13 16:55, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >> Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 April >> were the best dates? > Those work for me. Saturday is easier w/ respect to room availability. >> Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a Saturday? >> I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the next couple >> days. Hi all, I'm now assuming these dates are good for everyone. Please put these into your calendar now. No, not later, right now. ;-) > I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there > is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are > at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, > my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. That sounds perfect! >> - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that will take a >> group our size each day. > yup, or can cater it Also good. Maybe cater on Thurs/Fri and go out on the Sat? > Brown doesn't have official discounts, but I can ask around. Or give > you names so you can try for them on hotels.com. Let us know which you'd prefer, there are obvious benefits if those staying in hotels stay at the same one. (We get to debate issues over breakfast ;-) ) >> - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day before, weds >> 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with hearing >> about it from you. :-) > I was thinking about shilling for TEI talks to the Boston DH > consortium, to see if anyone wants to be invited, maybe get some > travel defrayed. John Unsworth, as treasurer, has a vested interest > in keeping costs down. Let us know if and how many volunteers from Council you might need since this will affect any travel/hotel bookings we make. Best, -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Feb 5 11:18:51 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 08:18:51 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Links to the Vault Message-ID: <511130EB.3000606@uvic.ca> Hi there, I just found myself trying to find the archive of version 2.2 in the Vault, and it was quite hard. The link on the main Guidelines page to the Archive goes here: <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/> but that page doesn't have links to the recent versions in the Vault, just to an ancient page of old drafts: <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/Vault-GL.html> Searching the site for "Vault" brings up this directory: <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/P5/> Would it be a good idea to link to that directory from the default Vault page? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 5 11:26:13 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 16:26:13 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Links to the Vault In-Reply-To: <511130EB.3000606@uvic.ca> References: <511130EB.3000606@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <511132A5.3000803@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 05/02/13 16:18, Martin Holmes wrote: > Hi there, > > I just found myself trying to find the archive of version 2.2 in the > Vault, and it was quite hard. The link on the main Guidelines page to > the Archive goes here: > > <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/> > > but that page doesn't have links to the recent versions in the Vault, > just to an ancient page of old drafts: > > <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/Vault-GL.html> > > Searching the site for "Vault" brings up this directory: > > <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/P5/> > > Would it be a good idea to link to that directory from the default Vault > page? > > Almost certainly. Just a matter of updating Vault/index.html I think (once upon a time, this was auto generated but it probably isn't any more) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Feb 5 11:26:58 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 11:26:58 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Links to the Vault In-Reply-To: <511130EB.3000606@uvic.ca> References: <511130EB.3000606@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <511132D2.5010104@ultraslavonic.info> Actually, I think we can solve this by modifying http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/Vault-GL.html so that instead of 2. Previous drafts of the Guidelines it would say: 2. Previous versions of the Guidelines and adding a link on this page to http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/#previous for old versions of P5. (We'd also change "drafts" to "versions" in the label at http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/ .) On 2/5/2013 11:18 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > Hi there, > > I just found myself trying to find the archive of version 2.2 in the > Vault, and it was quite hard. The link on the main Guidelines page to > the Archive goes here: > > <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/> > > but that page doesn't have links to the recent versions in the Vault, > just to an ancient page of old drafts: > > <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/Vault-GL.html> > > Searching the site for "Vault" brings up this directory: > > <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/P5/> > > Would it be a good idea to link to that directory from the default Vault > page? > > Cheers, > Martin From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 5 11:37:15 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 16:37:15 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Links to the Vault In-Reply-To: <511132D2.5010104@ultraslavonic.info> References: <511130EB.3000606@uvic.ca> <511132D2.5010104@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5111353B.6040109@it.ox.ac.uk> On 05/02/13 16:26, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Actually, I think we can solve this by modifying > > http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/Vault-GL.html > > so that instead of > > 2. Previous drafts of the Guidelines > > it would say: > > 2. Previous versions of the Guidelines Done. > > and adding a link on this page to > > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/#previous > > for old versions of P5. > Done. > (We'd also change "drafts" to "versions" in the label at > http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/ .) Done. Really we need to completely reorganize the Vault ... not to the break any links, but to perhaps get rid of the cruftier old HTML pages and either replace them with slightly better ones or something else. Anyone interested in this? The reason I hadn't corrected this before was that the pages all say they are automatically generated, but I couldn't find the source XML from which they had been. -James > > On 2/5/2013 11:18 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> I just found myself trying to find the archive of version 2.2 in the >> Vault, and it was quite hard. The link on the main Guidelines page to >> the Archive goes here: >> >> <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/> >> >> but that page doesn't have links to the recent versions in the Vault, >> just to an ancient page of old drafts: >> >> <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/Vault-GL.html> >> >> Searching the site for "Vault" brings up this directory: >> >> <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/P5/> >> >> Would it be a good idea to link to that directory from the default Vault >> page? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Feb 5 11:42:22 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 08:42:22 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Links to the Vault In-Reply-To: <511132D2.5010104@ultraslavonic.info> References: <511130EB.3000606@uvic.ca> <511132D2.5010104@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5111366E.7020003@uvic.ca> Where does that stuff live? I can't seem to find Vault in the CMS. This was the bit I was searching for, having vaguely remembered it existed: <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/#previous> but it's right down at the bottom of that page. Perhaps the page could have a little TOC at the top too? Cheers, Martin On 13-02-05 08:26 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Actually, I think we can solve this by modifying > > http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/Vault-GL.html > > so that instead of > > 2. Previous drafts of the Guidelines > > it would say: > > 2. Previous versions of the Guidelines > > and adding a link on this page to > > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/#previous > > for old versions of P5. > > (We'd also change "drafts" to "versions" in the label at > http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/ .) > > On 2/5/2013 11:18 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> I just found myself trying to find the archive of version 2.2 in the >> Vault, and it was quite hard. The link on the main Guidelines page to >> the Archive goes here: >> >> <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/> >> >> but that page doesn't have links to the recent versions in the Vault, >> just to an ancient page of old drafts: >> >> <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/Vault-GL.html> >> >> Searching the site for "Vault" brings up this directory: >> >> <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/P5/> >> >> Would it be a good idea to link to that directory from the default Vault >> page? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 5 11:51:00 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 16:51:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Links to the Vault In-Reply-To: <5111366E.7020003@uvic.ca> References: <511130EB.3000606@uvic.ca> <511132D2.5010104@ultraslavonic.info> <5111366E.7020003@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51113874.5070200@it.ox.ac.uk> On 05/02/13 16:42, Martin Holmes wrote: > Where does that stuff live? I can't seem to find Vault in the CMS. The Vault is one of the bits of the website that is entirely separate from the CMS. Stored on disk on tei-c.org but I believe DavidS has a copy of it in a separate subversion. (I believe the idea was that as an archive it shouldn't be easy to change it and should be separate from the Guidelines, etc.) > This was the bit I was searching for, having vaguely remembered it existed: > > <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/#previous> > > but it's right down at the bottom of that page. Perhaps the page could > have a little TOC at the top too? Not sure how to do that in the CMS. Kevin/David, you know? -James > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-02-05 08:26 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> Actually, I think we can solve this by modifying >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/Vault-GL.html >> >> so that instead of >> >> 2. Previous drafts of the Guidelines >> >> it would say: >> >> 2. Previous versions of the Guidelines >> >> and adding a link on this page to >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/#previous >> >> for old versions of P5. >> >> (We'd also change "drafts" to "versions" in the label at >> http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/ .) >> >> On 2/5/2013 11:18 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> Hi there, >>> >>> I just found myself trying to find the archive of version 2.2 in the >>> Vault, and it was quite hard. The link on the main Guidelines page to >>> the Archive goes here: >>> >>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/> >>> >>> but that page doesn't have links to the recent versions in the Vault, >>> just to an ancient page of old drafts: >>> >>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/Vault-GL.html> >>> >>> Searching the site for "Vault" brings up this directory: >>> >>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/P5/> >>> >>> Would it be a good idea to link to that directory from the default Vault >>> page? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From dsewell at virginia.edu Tue Feb 5 11:59:33 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 11:59:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Links to the Vault In-Reply-To: <51113874.5070200@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <511130EB.3000606@uvic.ca> <511132D2.5010104@ultraslavonic.info> <5111366E.7020003@uvic.ca> <51113874.5070200@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302051159120.27177@lister.ei.virginia.edu> I can take a look at these Vault things tonight but I'm swamped during the day today, David On Tue, 5 Feb 2013, James Cummings wrote: > On 05/02/13 16:42, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Where does that stuff live? I can't seem to find Vault in the CMS. > > The Vault is one of the bits of the website that is entirely > separate from the CMS. Stored on disk on tei-c.org but I believe > DavidS has a copy of it in a separate subversion. (I believe the > idea was that as an archive it shouldn't be easy to change it and > should be separate from the Guidelines, etc.) > >> This was the bit I was searching for, having vaguely remembered it existed: >> >> <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/#previous> >> >> but it's right down at the bottom of that page. Perhaps the page could >> have a little TOC at the top too? > > Not sure how to do that in the CMS. Kevin/David, you know? > > -James >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-02-05 08:26 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> Actually, I think we can solve this by modifying >>> >>> http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/Vault-GL.html >>> >>> so that instead of >>> >>> 2. Previous drafts of the Guidelines >>> >>> it would say: >>> >>> 2. Previous versions of the Guidelines >>> >>> and adding a link on this page to >>> >>> http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/#previous >>> >>> for old versions of P5. >>> >>> (We'd also change "drafts" to "versions" in the label at >>> http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/ .) >>> >>> On 2/5/2013 11:18 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> Hi there, >>>> >>>> I just found myself trying to find the archive of version 2.2 in the >>>> Vault, and it was quite hard. The link on the main Guidelines page to >>>> the Archive goes here: >>>> >>>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/> >>>> >>>> but that page doesn't have links to the recent versions in the Vault, >>>> just to an ancient page of old drafts: >>>> >>>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/Vault-GL.html> >>>> >>>> Searching the site for "Vault" brings up this directory: >>>> >>>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Vault/P5/> >>>> >>>> Would it be a good idea to link to that directory from the default Vault >>>> page? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >> > > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400314, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4314 USA Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 5 12:30:13 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 17:30:13 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Links to the Vault In-Reply-To: <5111353B.6040109@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <511130EB.3000606@uvic.ca> <511132D2.5010104@ultraslavonic.info> <5111353B.6040109@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <511141A5.1050502@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 05/02/13 16:37, James Cummings wrote: > > > Really we need to completely reorganize the Vault ... not to the > break any links, but to perhaps get rid of the cruftier old HTML > pages and either replace them with slightly better ones or > something else. Anyone interested in this? Yes, me. There are big gaps to be filled too. > > The reason I hadn't corrected this before was that the pages all > say they are automatically generated, but I couldn't find the > source XML from which they had been. The files doclist.xml and doclist.xsl are probably involved somewhere.... From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Feb 5 18:38:28 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 15:38:28 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? Message-ID: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> I have an ODD file containing this: <elementSpec ident="list" mode="change"> <attList> <attDef ident="type" mode="change" usage="opt"> <valList mode="add" type="closed"> <valItem ident="ordered"/> <valItem ident="unordered"/> </valList> </attDef> </attList> </elementSpec> When I run Roma and generate an RNG schema, it has this: <optional> <attribute xmlns:a="http://relaxng.org/ns/compatibility/annotations/1.0" name="type" a:defaultValue="simple"> <a:documentation>describes the form of the list.</a:documentation> <choice> <value>ordered</value> <a:documentation/> <value>unordered</value> <a:documentation/> </choice> </attribute> </optional> Note the default value of "simple". With this schema, the following becomes invalid: <list> because the processor assumes the default value of "simple" in the absence of the attribute (even though the attribute is optional), and because "simple" is not in the list of allowed values, the element is invalid. At least, I presume that's what's happening. Should this be the case? Or should Roma detect when a default value is not included in the list of allowed values in the ODD, and discard it? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Feb 5 20:08:06 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 20:08:06 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20753.44278.193085.243786@emt.ad.brown.edu> For that matter, should the type= of <list> have a default value at all? From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 01:23:33 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 06:23:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5111F6E5.7040609@it.ox.ac.uk> Gosh, interesting. I think if there is a default value then it should be impossible to have a closed valList without that being included. I don't think it should automatically include it...but simply raise an error when processing such an ODD. But this is just a gut feeling, -James On 05/02/13 23:38, Martin Holmes wrote: > I have an ODD file containing this: > > <elementSpec ident="list" mode="change"> > <attList> > <attDef ident="type" mode="change" usage="opt"> > <valList mode="add" type="closed"> > <valItem ident="ordered"/> > <valItem ident="unordered"/> > </valList> > </attDef> > > </attList> > </elementSpec> > > When I run Roma and generate an RNG schema, it has this: > > <optional> > <attribute > xmlns:a="http://relaxng.org/ns/compatibility/annotations/1.0" > name="type" a:defaultValue="simple"> > <a:documentation>describes the form of the > list.</a:documentation> > <choice> > <value>ordered</value> > <a:documentation/> > <value>unordered</value> > <a:documentation/> > </choice> > </attribute> > </optional> > > Note the default value of "simple". With this schema, the following > becomes invalid: > > <list> > > because the processor assumes the default value of "simple" in the > absence of the attribute (even though the attribute is optional), and > because "simple" is not in the list of allowed values, the element is > invalid. At least, I presume that's what's happening. > > Should this be the case? Or should Roma detect when a default value is > not included in the list of allowed values in the ODD, and discard it? > > Cheers, > Martin > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 04:25:10 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 09:25:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> The current odd processor does very little error/consistency checking of this kind, so I am not surprised that you can generate a nonsense. I suppose one could trap this situation fairly easily. don't get me started on the nonsense of the defaultVal for list/@type of "simple". -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 04:25:12 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 09:25:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <086A635C-4F6B-4A5B-BA2B-677DEE58E3BA@it.ox.ac.uk> The current odd processor does very little error/consistency checking of this kind, so I am not surprised that you can generate a nonsense. I suppose one could trap this situation fairly easily. don't get me started on the nonsense of the defaultVal for list/@type of "simple". -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 04:42:53 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 09:42:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca>, <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> May e we should start deprecating defaultVal ? Sent from my HTC ----- Reply message ----- From: "Sebastian Rahtz" <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> To: "<mholmes at uvic.ca>" <mholmes at uvic.ca> Cc: "TEI Council" <tei-council at lists.village.virginia.edu> Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? Date: Wed, Feb 6, 2013 09:25 The current odd processor does very little error/consistency checking of this kind, so I am not surprised that you can generate a nonsense. I suppose one could trap this situation fairly easily. don't get me started on the nonsense of the defaultVal for list/@type of "simple". -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 04:51:22 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 09:51:22 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <73242DA2-F3F1-4C79-9B66-7B3DE98CDFDD@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca>, <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <73242DA2-F3F1-4C79-9B66-7B3DE98CDFDD@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <7e817578-092c-42b8-aa38-e3eb6b56b611@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 6 Feb 2013, at 09:42, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > May e we should start deprecating defaultVal ? I am wary of using deprecation as a way of brushing things under the carpet, mainly because we have no real plans to have it mean anything. We have discussed how to show it to the reader better in documentation, but thats a bit of a figleaf. Unless we really put time limits on the life of features, and actually remove them on some date, I don't see the value. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 05:23:00 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 10:23:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <5F62063C-EC90-4625-9F7F-E2E2AC5DAADF@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca>, <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <73242DA2-F3F1-4C79-9B66-7B3DE98CDFDD@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5F62063C-EC90-4625-9F7F-E2E2AC5DAADF@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51122F04.7080208@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 06/02/13 09:51, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 6 Feb 2013, at 09:42, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> May e we should start deprecating defaultVal ? > > I am wary of using deprecation as a way of brushing things under the carpet, > mainly because we have no real plans to have it mean anything. We have discussed > how to show it to the reader better in documentation, but thats a bit of a figleaf. > Unless we really put time limits on the life of features, and actually remove them > on some date, I don't see the value. So because our current implementation of deprecation is suboptimal we shouldn't use it? In fact you propose to deprecate deprecation? Sounds like we're really having a bad day... From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 05:25:39 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 10:25:39 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <51122F04.7080208@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca>, <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <73242DA2-F3F1-4C79-9B66-7B3DE98CDFDD@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5F62063C-EC90-4625-9F7F-E2E2AC5DAADF@it.ox.ac.uk>, <51122F04.7080208@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <ec012bf5-f7b0-43a8-ac08-1285db71a199@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> > > So because our current implementation of deprecation is suboptimal we shouldn't use it? In fact you propose to deprecate deprecation? No, I am proposing that we implement deprecation properly. No paper tigers. > Sebastian From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 05:30:41 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 10:30:41 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <FF639519-4A18-47CA-9838-9AE8CA27AD9D@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca>, <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <73242DA2-F3F1-4C79-9B66-7B3DE98CDFDD@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5F62063C-EC90-4625-9F7F-E2E2AC5DAADF@it.ox.ac.uk>, <51122F04.7080208@retired.ox.ac.uk> <FF639519-4A18-47CA-9838-9AE8CA27AD9D@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <511230D1.2070104@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 06/02/13 10:25, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > > >> >> So because our current implementation of deprecation is suboptimal we shouldn't use it? In fact you propose to deprecate deprecation? > > No, I am proposing that we implement deprecation properly. No paper tigers. >> That seems like a different question from the one we were discussing then... whether or not in general defaultVal is a bad idea. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Feb 6 05:34:50 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 05:34:50 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <ec012bf5-f7b0-43a8-ac08-1285db71a199@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <73242DA2-F3F1-4C79-9B66-7B3DE98CDFDD@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5F62063C-EC90-4625-9F7F-E2E2AC5DAADF@it.ox.ac.uk> <51122F04.7080208@retired.ox.ac.uk> <ec012bf5-f7b0-43a8-ac08-1285db71a199@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20754.12746.677072.596463@emt.ad.brown.edu> While I'm not against improving our deprecation procedures, I'd be happy to have the paper tiger attack <defaultVal> in the meantime. But that said, I'm not sure <defaultVal> *should* be depreated to extinction. I think it should just be far better documented to say what it *means*. Since the underlying language of TEI is RELAX NG, the default value is not much more than a suggestion to processors. But our documentation doesn't say anything along these lines at all. Shouldn't the Guidelines explain exactly what happens when an element that has a default attribute value specified in its ODD is processed by a DTD, RELAX NG, XML Schema, or non-validating processor? Or is that getting too process-specific for text encoding guidelines? (Right now, I'm leaning strongly towards "yes, we should explain this".) > > So because our current implementation of deprecation is > > suboptimal we shouldn't use it? In fact you propose to deprecate > > deprecation? > > No, I am proposing that we implement deprecation properly. No paper > tigers. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 05:42:29 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 10:42:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <20754.12746.677072.596463@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <73242DA2-F3F1-4C79-9B66-7B3DE98CDFDD@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5F62063C-EC90-4625-9F7F-E2E2AC5DAADF@it.ox.ac.uk> <51122F04.7080208@retired.ox.ac.uk> <ec012bf5-f7b0-43a8-ac08-1285db71a199@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20754.12746.677072.596463@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4E95A7FD-2FD1-4B90-8C63-5AA0D550E3D8@it.ox.ac.uk> On 6 Feb 2013, at 10:34, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu> wrote: > But that said, I'm not sure <defaultVal> *should* be depreated to > extinction. I think it should just be far better documented to say > what it *means*. Since the underlying language of TEI is RELAX NG, > the default value is not much more than a suggestion to processors. > But our documentation doesn't say anything along these lines at all. But when the RNG is converted to XSD, and you use a schema-aware processor, the defaultVal becomes formal again, I think? > > Shouldn't the Guidelines explain exactly what happens when an element > that has a default attribute value specified in its ODD is processed > by a DTD, RELAX NG, XML Schema, or non-validating processor? I agree. if we keep it, lets explain it. if we can't explain it, we should drop it. there is an intermediate solution - keep defaultVal in ODD, but not use it ourselves in P5. a propose of <list>, I'd just make @type mandatory there?. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 05:45:43 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 10:45:43 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] content model of <eg> Message-ID: <AA898FAB-F302-432C-BD8C-A4F1C471CA7A@it.ox.ac.uk> would anyone else to support https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3602583&group_id=106328&atid=644065 ? I can't support myself on the ticket, but I do claim is an anomaly which can be resolved -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Feb 6 06:17:31 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 06:17:31 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] content model of <eg> In-Reply-To: <AA898FAB-F302-432C-BD8C-A4F1C471CA7A@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <AA898FAB-F302-432C-BD8C-A4F1C471CA7A@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20754.15307.281558.917144@emt.ad.brown.edu> Not sure if "support" here has a particular meaning here (if I click on "support" on the SF ticket page, I get their help). BUT ... My instinct is that I don't want to give <eg> a real content model OR a default value of xml:space="preserve". I want to give it BOTH a real content model (is model.phraseSeq the right one?) AND a default value of xml:space="preserve". (Except that I don't like default attribute values much at all. See previous post/thread :-) > would anyone else to support > https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3602583&group_id=106328&atid=644065 > ? > > I can't support myself on the ticket, but I do claim is an anomaly > which can be resolved From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 06:19:21 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 11:19:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <20754.12746.677072.596463@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <73242DA2-F3F1-4C79-9B66-7B3DE98CDFDD@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5F62063C-EC90-4625-9F7F-E2E2AC5DAADF@it.ox.ac.uk> <51122F04.7080208@retired.ox.ac.uk> <ec012bf5-f7b0-43a8-ac08-1285db71a199@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20754.12746.677072.596463@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <993D8715-64CF-49B9-8597-44831C332A47@it.ox.ac.uk> On 6 Feb 2013, at 10:34, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at BROWN.EDU> wrote: > Shouldn't the Guidelines explain exactly what happens when an element > that has a default attribute value specified in its ODD is processed > by a DTD, RELAX NG, XML Schema, or non-validating processor? I did just look at this, and I see we do generate the default formally in XSD: <xs:attribute name="type" default="simple"> so we can be in a number of different situations when we process a document containing <list>: 1. we use no schema at all: we get no knowledge of "simple" 2. we refer to an XSD but use a no-frills XSL processor: we get no knowledge of "simple" 3. we refer to a XSD and use a full schema-aware XSL parser: we can see type="simple" but its not auto-interpolated (?) 4. we refer to a DTD and use a full XML parser: we have type="simple" interpolated for us 5. we refer to a DTD and use a minimal XML parser: we get no knowledge of "simple" 6. we refere to a RELAX NG schema: we get no knowledge of "simple" except in help during editing by some editors pretty unsatisfactory, isn't it? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 06:23:10 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 11:23:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] content model of <eg> In-Reply-To: <20754.15307.281558.917144@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <AA898FAB-F302-432C-BD8C-A4F1C471CA7A@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.15307.281558.917144@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <30CDDE91-19E2-4F82-9650-1C03CE4A917B@it.ox.ac.uk> On 6 Feb 2013, at 11:17, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu> wrote: > > My instinct is that I don't want to give <eg> a real content model OR > a default value of xml:space="preserve". I want to give it BOTH a > real content model (is model.phraseSeq the right one?) AND a default > value of xml:space="preserve". (Except that I don't like default > attribute values much at all. See previous post/thread :-) well, quite. we don't have a mechanism for saying it should be given xml:space="preserve", so we'd have to rely on the prose explaining that. which would be better than nothing. we _could_ make xml:space mandatory on <eg>, to make people think about it. (no, I don't know exactly what the right content model should be. phraseSeq was a guess) -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Feb 6 06:29:26 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 06:29:26 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <993D8715-64CF-49B9-8597-44831C332A47@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <73242DA2-F3F1-4C79-9B66-7B3DE98CDFDD@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5F62063C-EC90-4625-9F7F-E2E2AC5DAADF@it.ox.ac.uk> <51122F04.7080208@retired.ox.ac.uk> <ec012bf5-f7b0-43a8-ac08-1285db71a199@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <20754.12746.677072.596463@emt.ad.brown.edu> <993D8715-64CF-49B9-8597-44831C332A47@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20754.16022.597380.500473@emt.ad.brown.edu> That's about the result I expected, and is exactly the kind of thing I think we should document. (Although, as with XSD, say of RELAX NG that a basic processor will give you no knowledge of the default value, and one that follows (the ISO equivalent of) _RELAX NG DTD Compatibility Annotations_ will give you the default value.) And while it may be unsatisfactory, it isn't of *our* doing, and there isn't much we can do about it[1] except try to help our users wade through it. Notes ----- [1] Yes, the entire TEI community could stand and cry out to the W3C in unison "schema-added information to an XML document is evil, please stop it". I wonder if they'd even waste the breath to laugh at us. > > Shouldn't the Guidelines explain exactly what happens when an > > element that has a default attribute value specified in its ODD is > > processed by a DTD, RELAX NG, XML Schema, or non-validating > > processor? > > I did just look at this, and I see we do generate the default > formally in XSD: > <xs:attribute name="type" default="simple"> > > so we can be in a number of different situations when we process a > document containing <list>: > > 1. we use no schema at all: we get no knowledge of "simple" 2. we > refer to an XSD but use a no-frills XSL processor: we get no > knowledge of "simple" 3. we refer to a XSD and use a full > schema-aware XSL parser: we can see type="simple" but its not > auto-interpolated (?) 4. we refer to a DTD and use a full XML > parser: we have type="simple" interpolated for us 5. we refer to a > DTD and use a minimal XML parser: we get no knowledge of "simple" 6. > we refere to a RELAX NG schema: we get no knowledge of "simple" > except in help during editing by some editors > > pretty unsatisfactory, isn't it? From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Feb 6 06:31:16 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 06:31:16 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] content model of <eg> In-Reply-To: <30CDDE91-19E2-4F82-9650-1C03CE4A917B@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <AA898FAB-F302-432C-BD8C-A4F1C471CA7A@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.15307.281558.917144@emt.ad.brown.edu> <30CDDE91-19E2-4F82-9650-1C03CE4A917B@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20754.16132.117133.895952@emt.ad.brown.edu> > we _could_ make xml:space mandatory on <eg>, to make people think > about it. Could even make it mandatory and give it only one possible value, "preserve". From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Feb 6 08:31:25 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 05:31:25 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca>, <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> First of all, I think we should get rid of it in this particular case. As Syd and Sebastian say, it makes no sense, especially when we're a bit in doubt already about what the recommended values should be. Then I think we should look at all default values for attributes which are optional, at least. Cheers, Martin On 13-02-06 01:42 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > May e we should start deprecating defaultVal ? > > Sent from my HTC > > ----- Reply message ----- > From: "Sebastian Rahtz" <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> > To: "<mholmes at uvic.ca>" <mholmes at uvic.ca> > Cc: "TEI Council" <tei-council at lists.village.virginia.edu> > Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? > Date: Wed, Feb 6, 2013 09:25 > > > > The current odd processor does very little error/consistency checking of > this kind, > so I am not surprised that you can generate a nonsense. I suppose one could > trap this situation fairly easily. > > don't get me started on the nonsense of the defaultVal for list/@type of > "simple". > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 08:42:51 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 13:42:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca>, <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> On 6 Feb 2013, at 13:31, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > First of all, I think we should get rid of it in this particular case. > As Syd and Sebastian say, it makes no sense, especially when we're a bit > in doubt already about what the recommended values should be. > i think this case, <list>, is rather tricky, as the @type is rather vital. Usually, having no @type on an element is fine, but it is used very often with <list> to effectively indicate rendition. having a <defaultVal> is a confusion, as noted, but some prose indicating what an untyped list _does_ represent would be useful. it would be nice to have a facsimile of what the example from Pope Hadrian looked like. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Feb 6 10:19:09 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 10:19:09 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> I agree that <list> is rather tricky, now that you point out that type= is often used to indicate what the list *looked like in the original* (because, of course, except for those of us foolish enough to use TEI to write things like papers and websites, nobody forgets the TEI is about the input, not the output). But perhaps, with the exception of "gloss" (which really means "I'm using <list> to encode a 2-column <table> because it's easier), we don't need type= for this purpose at all. After all, we already have rend=, rendition=, and style=. Saying that a transcribed list is "ordered" seems a bit silly. Of course it's ordered, and not only that, I've encoded the items in that order. But perhaps "ordered" means "it has numbers (or letters) in front of each item", in which case rend=, rendition=, or style= seems like the more appropriate place to record that information. But perhaps "ordered" means "I am asserting that the order of these items was important to the author", in which case ana= seems more appropriate, no? But of course, when <list> is used in an authorial instead of transcriptional way, saying "ordered" is asserting "I want these things in this order, and numbered please" which seems quite helpful. I guess my point here (besides that I'm *really* tired) is that we should re-think list/@type entirely. > i think this case, <list>, is rather tricky, as the @type is rather > vital. Usually, having no @type on an element is fine, but it is > used very often with <list> to effectively indicate rendition. > > having a <defaultVal> is a confusion, as noted, but some prose > indicating what an untyped list _does_ represent would be useful. > > it would be nice to have a facsimile of what the example from Pope > Hadrian looked like. From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Feb 6 11:38:53 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 08:38:53 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Deprecation: some positive action? In-Reply-To: <ec012bf5-f7b0-43a8-ac08-1285db71a199@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca>, <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <73242DA2-F3F1-4C79-9B66-7B3DE98CDFDD@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5F62063C-EC90-4625-9F7F-E2E2AC5DAADF@it.ox.ac.uk>, <51122F04.7080208@retired.ox.ac.uk> <ec012bf5-f7b0-43a8-ac08-1285db71a199@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5112871D.7090200@uvic.ca> On April 19 2011, quotation/@form was deprecated. By the time the next release comes, it will have been deprecated for two years. Can I suggest we now remove it, and perhaps send a message to TEI-L warning that this change will appear in the next release? Cheers, Martin On 13-02-06 02:25 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > > >> >> So because our current implementation of deprecation is suboptimal we shouldn't use it? In fact you propose to deprecate deprecation? > > No, I am proposing that we implement deprecation properly. No paper tigers. >> > > Sebastian > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed Feb 6 11:50:26 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 11:50:26 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Deprecation: some positive action? In-Reply-To: <5112871D.7090200@uvic.ca> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca>, <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <73242DA2-F3F1-4C79-9B66-7B3DE98CDFDD@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5F62063C-EC90-4625-9F7F-E2E2AC5DAADF@it.ox.ac.uk>, <51122F04.7080208@retired.ox.ac.uk> <ec012bf5-f7b0-43a8-ac08-1285db71a199@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5112871D.7090200@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <511289D2.4050309@ultraslavonic.info> I would prefer that Lou and I first produce a coherent deprecation policy to Council at the next face-to-face, as we agreed to do in Oxford. Then we can act according to this. (After our last round of discussion of deprecation strategies on tei-council, I added the various proposals to http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Deprecation .) On 2/6/2013 11:38 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > On April 19 2011, quotation/@form was deprecated. By the time the next > release comes, it will have been deprecated for two years. Can I suggest > we now remove it, and perhaps send a message to TEI-L warning that this > change will appear in the next release? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-02-06 02:25 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> So because our current implementation of deprecation is suboptimal we shouldn't use it? In fact you propose to deprecate deprecation? >> >> No, I am proposing that we implement deprecation properly. No paper tigers. >>> >> >> Sebastian >> > From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Feb 6 11:58:30 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 08:58:30 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Quick survey of defaultVals Message-ID: <51128BB6.2050408@uvic.ca> There are 66: zone / @rotate data.count 0 att.tableDecora / @rows data.count 1 att.tableDecora / @cols data.count 1 datatype / @minOccurs data.count 1 datatype / @maxOccurs 1 teiCorpus / @version data.version 5.0 att.fragmentabl / @part data.enumerated N att / @scheme data.enumerated TEI gi / @scheme data.enumerated TEI tag / @scheme data.enumerated TEI schemaSpec / @start data.name TEI geoDecl / @datum data.enumerated WGS84 memberOf / @mode data.enumerated add att.combinable / @mode data.enumerated add recording / @type data.enumerated audio att.divLike / @sample data.enumerated complete att.tableDecora / @role data.enumerated data att.docStatus / @status data.enumerated draft altGrp / @mode data.enumerated excl att.declarable / @default data.truthValue false att.editLike / @instant data.xTruthValue false vocal / @iterated data.xTruthValue false kinesic / @iterated data.xTruthValue false att.lexicograph / @opt false att.msExcerpt / @defective data.xTruthValue false att.identified / @predeclare data.truthValue false orth / @extent data.enumerated full pron / @extent data.enumerated full attList / @org data.enumerated group attDef / @ns data.namespace http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0 att.namespaceab / @ns data.namespace http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0 titlePart / @type data.enumerated main att.entryLike / @type data.enumerated main metDecl / @type data.enumerated met real shift / @new data.enumerated normal valList / @type data.enumerated open attDef / @usage data.enumerated opt relation / @type data.enumerated personal classes / @mode data.enumerated replace castItem / @type data.enumerated role join / @scope data.enumerated root correction / @method data.enumerated silent normalization / @method data.enumerated silent list / @type data.enumerated simple constitution / @type data.enumerated single u / @trans data.enumerated smooth hyphenation / @eol data.enumerated some att.identified / @status data.enumerated stable teiHeader / @type data.enumerated text said / @direct data.xTruthValue true note / @anchored data.truthValue true metSym / @terminal data.truthValue true listChange / @ordered data.truthValue true fDecl / @optional true tree / @ord data.enumerated true egXML / @valid data.enumerated true content / @autoPrefix data.truthValue true att.divLike / @org data.enumerated uniform availability / @status data.enumerated unknown correction / @status data.enumerated unknown quotation / @form unknown said / @aloud data.xTruthValue unknown sound / @discrete data.xTruthValue unknown att.transcripti / @status data.enumerated unremarkable channel / @mode data.enumerated x att.personal / @full data.enumerated yes -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 16:51:02 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 21:51:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> Just a quick note to say that I agree that list/@type is very difficult. I've always argued against our suggested value of 'bulleted' because I think it muddies these waters further. (That it is bulleted may apply to an ordered or unordered list... that, to me, is a more usually a feature of its rendition.) I think most people interpret ordered also as rendition (numbered) but being able to distinguish that you think the order in this list set is important versus not being important is useful. -James On 06/02/13 15:19, Syd Bauman wrote: > I agree that <list> is rather tricky, now that you point out that > type= is often used to indicate what the list *looked like in the > original* (because, of course, except for those of us foolish enough > to use TEI to write things like papers and websites, nobody forgets > the TEI is about the input, not the output). But perhaps, with the > exception of "gloss" (which really means "I'm using <list> to encode > a 2-column <table> because it's easier), we don't need type= for this > purpose at all. After all, we already have rend=, rendition=, and > style=. > > Saying that a transcribed list is "ordered" seems a bit silly. Of > course it's ordered, and not only that, I've encoded the items in > that order. But perhaps "ordered" means "it has numbers (or letters) > in front of each item", in which case rend=, rendition=, or style= > seems like the more appropriate place to record that information. But > perhaps "ordered" means "I am asserting that the order of these items > was important to the author", in which case ana= seems more > appropriate, no? > > But of course, when <list> is used in an authorial instead of > transcriptional way, saying "ordered" is asserting "I want these > things in this order, and numbered please" which seems quite helpful. > > I guess my point here (besides that I'm *really* tired) is that we > should re-think list/@type entirely. > >> i think this case, <list>, is rather tricky, as the @type is rather >> vital. Usually, having no @type on an element is fine, but it is >> used very often with <list> to effectively indicate rendition. >> >> having a <defaultVal> is a confusion, as noted, but some prose >> indicating what an untyped list _does_ represent would be useful. >> >> it would be nice to have a facsimile of what the example from Pope >> Hadrian looked like. -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Feb 6 17:32:13 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 14:32:13 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> I think the core problem here is that we've been using @type on <list> for all these years when we should have been using @rend. Doesn't this sound more sane? @rend="bulleted" @rend="numbered" @rend="simple" The only value of @type that really looks like a type to me is "gloss", but this is used, as far as I understand it, when there is a <label> preceding the <item>, and in that case the presence of <label> is sufficient to determine the output appearance. So I would recommend: 1. Changing our recommendation so that we provide suggested values for @rend, not @type. 2. Adding a suggestion that using @style with CSS will provide a useful range of precise options that cover most cases. 3. Leaving @type on <list>, for backward compatibility, but providing no suggested values for it. This will cause Sebastian considerable stylesheet-related pain, I know, so apologies for that. Cheers, martin On 13-02-06 01:51 PM, James Cummings wrote: > > Just a quick note to say that I agree that list/@type is very > difficult. I've always argued against our suggested value of > 'bulleted' because I think it muddies these waters further. > (That it is bulleted may apply to an ordered or unordered list... > that, to me, is a more usually a feature of its rendition.) I > think most people interpret ordered also as rendition (numbered) > but being able to distinguish that you think the order in this > list set is important versus not being important is useful. > > -James > > On 06/02/13 15:19, Syd Bauman wrote: >> I agree that <list> is rather tricky, now that you point out that >> type= is often used to indicate what the list *looked like in the >> original* (because, of course, except for those of us foolish enough >> to use TEI to write things like papers and websites, nobody forgets >> the TEI is about the input, not the output). But perhaps, with the >> exception of "gloss" (which really means "I'm using <list> to encode >> a 2-column <table> because it's easier), we don't need type= for this >> purpose at all. After all, we already have rend=, rendition=, and >> style=. >> >> Saying that a transcribed list is "ordered" seems a bit silly. Of >> course it's ordered, and not only that, I've encoded the items in >> that order. But perhaps "ordered" means "it has numbers (or letters) >> in front of each item", in which case rend=, rendition=, or style= >> seems like the more appropriate place to record that information. But >> perhaps "ordered" means "I am asserting that the order of these items >> was important to the author", in which case ana= seems more >> appropriate, no? >> >> But of course, when <list> is used in an authorial instead of >> transcriptional way, saying "ordered" is asserting "I want these >> things in this order, and numbered please" which seems quite helpful. >> >> I guess my point here (besides that I'm *really* tired) is that we >> should re-think list/@type entirely. >> >>> i think this case, <list>, is rather tricky, as the @type is rather >>> vital. Usually, having no @type on an element is fine, but it is >>> used very often with <list> to effectively indicate rendition. >>> >>> having a <defaultVal> is a confusion, as noted, but some prose >>> indicating what an untyped list _does_ represent would be useful. >>> >>> it would be nice to have a facsimile of what the example from Pope >>> Hadrian looked like. > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed Feb 6 17:48:57 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 17:48:57 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5112DDD9.9040501@ultraslavonic.info> On 2/6/13 5:32 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > I think the core problem here is that we've been using @type on <list> > for all these years when we should have been using @rend. Doesn't this > sound more sane? > > @rend="bulleted" > @rend="numbered" > @rend="simple" For the third, I think we would want to rename this to @rend='unlabelled' since "simple" sounds to me more like a type than a way of rendering. > The only value of @type that really looks like a type to me is "gloss", > but this is used, as far as I understand it, when there is a <label> > preceding the <item>, and in that case the presence of <label> is > sufficient to determine the output appearance. I think that's right. > So I would recommend: > > 1. Changing our recommendation so that we provide suggested values for > @rend, not @type. > > 2. Adding a suggestion that using @style with CSS will provide a useful > range of precise options that cover most cases. > > 3. Leaving @type on <list>, for backward compatibility, but providing no > suggested values for it. Or we could leave the values in place, though indicate deprecation, as i did for biblScope at type. --K. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 18:31:32 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 23:31:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <474E1ADD-AD52-4E16-A159-E5FD91994612@it.ox.ac.uk> On 6 Feb 2013, at 22:32, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > I think the core problem here is that we've been using @type on <list> > for all these years when we should have been using @rend. yes and no. I can't shake my conviction that every _modern_ system does make that fundamental distinction between the ordered and unordered list. Yes of course we are about transcribing what we see, but those modern things didnt appear from nowhere. > Doesn't this > sound more sane? > > @rend="bulleted" > @rend="numbered" > @rend="simple" well, sort of. I've always disliked the over-specific "bulleted", and I've never understood "simple" but I accept thats my problem :-{ > > The only value of @type that really looks like a type to me is "gloss", > but this is used, as far as I understand it, when there is a <label> > preceding the <item>, and in that case the presence of <label> is > sufficient to determine the output appearance. yes, thats true. if there are label children, its a gloss list. > > So I would recommend: > > 1. Changing our recommendation so that we provide suggested values for > @rend, not @type. ok, I suppose > 2. Adding a suggestion that using @style with CSS will provide a useful > range of precise options that cover most cases. > or better, @rendition, in fact. @rendition="#romannumbered" is a more useful scenario > 3. Leaving @type on <list>, for backward compatibility, but providing no > suggested values for it. not suggested values, but with an example? can we think of one? > > This will cause Sebastian considerable stylesheet-related pain, I know, > so apologies for that. yes, I haven't the faintest idea how to know whether to make <ul> or <ol>. I suggest that this is such a big bucket of worms that it needs public discussion. @type on <list> seems so well established in both instances and tools that I can't help feeling we may provoke howls of protest across the seven seas. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 18:35:42 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 23:35:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Quick survey of defaultVals In-Reply-To: <51128BB6.2050408@uvic.ca> References: <51128BB6.2050408@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <D055D53E-C58E-41D7-8C57-D8D06E3F4402@it.ox.ac.uk> One way of dealing with this is to decide that <defaultVal> is _always_ purely documentary, and say that ODD processors should not attempt to put it in a schema. It says how we intend you to read the specification, and it is guidance for a processing model. Its a shame to lose the information that <datatype> without @maxOccurs should be treated as if it has a limit of 1. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Feb 6 20:20:11 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 17:20:11 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <474E1ADD-AD52-4E16-A159-E5FD91994612@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> <474E1ADD-AD52-4E16-A159-E5FD91994612@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5113014B.7050504@uvic.ca> On 13-02-06 03:31 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 6 Feb 2013, at 22:32, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > >> I think the core problem here is that we've been using @type on <list> >> for all these years when we should have been using @rend. > > yes and no. I can't shake my conviction that every _modern_ system does make > that fundamental distinction between the ordered and unordered list. Yes of course > we are about transcribing what we see, but those modern things didnt appear from nowhere. But the same thing applies to italics, or drop-caps, doesn't it? As Syd says, lists are ordered and can't be otherwise; the issue is whether they're explicitly numbered, and that's a typographical rendition issue. I think the unfortunate issue of HTML ul/ol versus the CSS that should do the job (list-style-type), but which only came later, has confused our thinking on this. If there were a true difference in type, wouldn't TEI have created two separate elements? >> Doesn't this >> sound more sane? >> >> @rend="bulleted" >> @rend="numbered" >> @rend="simple" > well, sort of. I've always disliked the over-specific "bulleted", and I've never understood > "simple" but I accept thats my problem :-{ At least "bulleted" is a clear description of the rendering of the list. >> The only value of @type that really looks like a type to me is "gloss", >> but this is used, as far as I understand it, when there is a <label> >> preceding the <item>, and in that case the presence of <label> is >> sufficient to determine the output appearance. > yes, thats true. if there are label children, its a gloss list. >> >> So I would recommend: >> >> 1. Changing our recommendation so that we provide suggested values for >> @rend, not @type. > > ok, I suppose > >> 2. Adding a suggestion that using @style with CSS will provide a useful >> range of precise options that cover most cases. >> > or better, @rendition, in fact. @rendition="#romannumbered" is a more useful > scenario How about <list style="list-style-type:upper-roman;">? >> 3. Leaving @type on <list>, for backward compatibility, but providing no >> suggested values for it. > not suggested values, but with an example? can we think of one? <list type="instructions"> <list type="recipe"> <list type="shopping"> These are all actual types of list; any of them might be rendered with bullets or numbers, without changing their type. >> This will cause Sebastian considerable stylesheet-related pain, I know, >> so apologies for that. > > > yes, I haven't the faintest idea how to know whether to make <ul> or <ol>. Yes, damn it, that's the heart of the problem. HTML was wrong to have two separate tags. But if you create a <ul> and make it list-style-type: upper-roman, you'll get roman numerals, and if you give an <ol> list-style-type: disc, you'll get a bulleted list. If we believe that all lists are inherently ordered, we could just use <ol> in the output and let CSS do the styling. > I suggest that this is such a big bucket of worms that it needs public discussion. > @type on <list> seems so well established in both instances and tools that > I can't help feeling we may provoke howls of protest across the seven seas. Indeed. But we don't have to break backwards compatibility; you could still detect the old values in the stylesheets and retain the old behaviour. Cheers, Martin > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Feb 7 11:02:20 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 08:02:20 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Quick survey of defaultVals In-Reply-To: <D055D53E-C58E-41D7-8C57-D8D06E3F4402@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51128BB6.2050408@uvic.ca> <D055D53E-C58E-41D7-8C57-D8D06E3F4402@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5113D00C.5090405@uvic.ca> On 13-02-06 03:35 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > One way of dealing with this is to decide that <defaultVal> is _always_ purely documentary, > and say that ODD processors should not attempt to put it in a schema. It says how > we intend you to read the specification, and it is guidance for a processing model. Its > a shame to lose the information that <datatype> without @maxOccurs should be treated > as if it has a limit of 1. It took me a while to figure out what the last sentence has to do with the preceding, but I think I've got it: the defaultVal of @maxOccurs is 1. That's a good example of where defaultVal makes perfect sense, but it's not a context most users will ever think about. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Feb 7 11:19:17 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:19:17 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Quick survey of defaultVals In-Reply-To: <5113D00C.5090405@uvic.ca> References: <51128BB6.2050408@uvic.ca> <D055D53E-C58E-41D7-8C57-D8D06E3F4402@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113D00C.5090405@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20755.54277.365143.111685@emt.ad.brown.edu> I think you've interpreted Sebastian correctly, and true, most users won't ever worry about datatype/@maxOccurs. But I think the same thing ("It's a shame to lose the information that ...") can be equally well applied to quite a few others as well. > It took me a while to figure out what the last sentence has to do > with the preceding, but I think I've got it: the defaultVal of > @maxOccurs is 1. That's a good example of where defaultVal makes > perfect sense, but it's not a context most users will ever think > about. From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Feb 7 11:25:01 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 08:25:01 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> I need to book my trip soon. Is it Green Airport we should be flying into? Cheers, Martin On 13-02-01 08:55 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > answers interspersed below. > > On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:53 AM, James Cummings > <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> >> Hi Elli, (CC'ed rest of Council) >> >> Looking at http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i >> >> Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 April >> were the best dates? > > Those work for me. Saturday is easier w/ respect to room availability. > >> >> Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a Saturday? >> I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the next couple >> days. >> >> If not we better start organising! >> >> Questions/requirements that occur to me are: >> - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for informal >> small breakout groups? > > I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there > is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are > at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, > my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. > >> - We'll definitely need wifi available. ;-) > Brown has guest wifi > >> - We usually either book coffee breaks from whatever catering you'd normally >> use (or if there is a really close place to buy such refreshments) > both are possible > >> - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that will take a >> group our size each day. > yup, or can cater it > >> - Do you know if there is any benefit of doing the hotel booking en masse >> via you (i.e. Brown gets discount or something) or is better to do >> individually? (We've done both ways before). Can you recommend a reasonable >> nearby hotel with wifi? > Brown doesn't have official discounts, but I can ask around. Or give > you names so you can try for them on hotels.com. > >> - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day before, weds >> 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with hearing >> about it from you. :-) >> > I was thinking about shilling for TEI talks to the Boston DH > consortium, to see if anyone wants to be invited, maybe get some > travel defrayed. John Unsworth, as treasurer, has a vested interest > in keeping costs down. > >> There are some other things on >> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council-Meeting-Checklist but that's a >> start! >> >> Best, >> -James >> >> -- >> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 7 11:27:57 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:27:57 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5113D60D.9050105@it.ox.ac.uk> I was assuming Boston/Logan Airport and then train to Providence. I wonder how much a connecting flight adds? Elli: Do we know whether some of us need to come a day early for giving some talks, or not? -James On 07/02/13 16:25, Martin Holmes wrote: > I need to book my trip soon. Is it Green Airport we should be flying into? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-02-01 08:55 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >> answers interspersed below. >> >> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:53 AM, James Cummings >> <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Elli, (CC'ed rest of Council) >>> >>> Looking at http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i >>> >>> Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 April >>> were the best dates? >> >> Those work for me. Saturday is easier w/ respect to room availability. >> >>> >>> Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a Saturday? >>> I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the next couple >>> days. >>> >>> If not we better start organising! >>> >>> Questions/requirements that occur to me are: >>> - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for informal >>> small breakout groups? >> >> I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there >> is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are >> at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, >> my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. >> >>> - We'll definitely need wifi available. ;-) >> Brown has guest wifi >> >>> - We usually either book coffee breaks from whatever catering you'd normally >>> use (or if there is a really close place to buy such refreshments) >> both are possible >> >>> - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that will take a >>> group our size each day. >> yup, or can cater it >> >>> - Do you know if there is any benefit of doing the hotel booking en masse >>> via you (i.e. Brown gets discount or something) or is better to do >>> individually? (We've done both ways before). Can you recommend a reasonable >>> nearby hotel with wifi? >> Brown doesn't have official discounts, but I can ask around. Or give >> you names so you can try for them on hotels.com. >> >>> - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day before, weds >>> 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with hearing >>> about it from you. :-) >>> >> I was thinking about shilling for TEI talks to the Boston DH >> consortium, to see if anyone wants to be invited, maybe get some >> travel defrayed. John Unsworth, as treasurer, has a vested interest >> in keeping costs down. >> >>> There are some other things on >>> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council-Meeting-Checklist but that's a >>> start! >>> >>> Best, >>> -James >>> >>> -- >>> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >>> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 7 11:29:03 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 16:29:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Quick survey of defaultVals In-Reply-To: <20755.54277.365143.111685@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <51128BB6.2050408@uvic.ca> <D055D53E-C58E-41D7-8C57-D8D06E3F4402@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113D00C.5090405@uvic.ca> <20755.54277.365143.111685@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <D62E75FA-DC54-4AC9-8D6E-BC430753CC5C@it.ox.ac.uk> On 7 Feb 2013, at 16:19, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at BROWN.EDU> wrote: > I think you've interpreted Sebastian correctly, and true, most users > won't ever worry about datatype/@maxOccurs. But I think the same > thing ("It's a shame to lose the information that ...") can be > equally well applied to quite a few others as well. sure. I agree, many of those defaultVals contain useful information. if we just stop making it formal, since formal support is so weird and patchy, we can keep as is. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Feb 7 11:44:28 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 08:44:28 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Quick survey of defaultVals In-Reply-To: <D62E75FA-DC54-4AC9-8D6E-BC430753CC5C@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51128BB6.2050408@uvic.ca> <D055D53E-C58E-41D7-8C57-D8D06E3F4402@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113D00C.5090405@uvic.ca> <20755.54277.365143.111685@emt.ad.brown.edu> <D62E75FA-DC54-4AC9-8D6E-BC430753CC5C@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5113D9EC.2050701@uvic.ca> If I wanted to explicitly remove the default value, in my original example: <elementSpec ident="list" mode="change"> <attList> <attDef ident="type" mode="change" usage="opt"> <valList mode="add" type="closed"> <valItem ident="ordered"/> <valItem ident="unordered"/> </valList> </attDef> </attList> </elementSpec> would I do it simply by inserting this? <defaultVal></defaultVal>? Cheers, Martin On 13-02-07 08:29 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 7 Feb 2013, at 16:19, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at BROWN.EDU> wrote: > >> I think you've interpreted Sebastian correctly, and true, most users >> won't ever worry about datatype/@maxOccurs. But I think the same >> thing ("It's a shame to lose the information that ...") can be >> equally well applied to quite a few others as well. > > > sure. I agree, many of those defaultVals contain useful > information. if we just stop making it formal, since > formal support is so weird and patchy, we can keep as is. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 7 11:45:32 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 16:45:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Quick survey of defaultVals In-Reply-To: <5113D9EC.2050701@uvic.ca> References: <51128BB6.2050408@uvic.ca> <D055D53E-C58E-41D7-8C57-D8D06E3F4402@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113D00C.5090405@uvic.ca> <20755.54277.365143.111685@emt.ad.brown.edu> <D62E75FA-DC54-4AC9-8D6E-BC430753CC5C@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113D9EC.2050701@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5690CF25-45C8-4327-A807-4596F94A73BC@it.ox.ac.uk> On 7 Feb 2013, at 16:44, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > If I wanted to explicitly remove the default value, in my original example: > > <elementSpec ident="list" mode="change"> > <attList> > <attDef ident="type" mode="change" usage="opt"> > <valList mode="add" type="closed"> > <valItem ident="ordered"/> > <valItem ident="unordered"/> > </valList> > </attDef> > > </attList> > </elementSpec> > > would I do it simply by inserting this? > > <defaultVal></defaultVal>? <defaultVal mode="delete"/> is more expressive. whether that _works_, I am not sure. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Feb 7 15:21:41 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 12:21:41 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <5113D60D.9050105@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <5113D60D.9050105@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51140CD5.7090709@uvic.ca> Looks like Logan would be cheaper. Flying to Green adds about $150 to the fare for me, and although Green is only ten miles from Brown, according to the RI transportation site I would need to walk for 36 minutes from the airport to catch a bus to the campus. It looks much easier to get in from Logan. Cheers, Martin On 13-02-07 08:27 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > I was assuming Boston/Logan Airport and then train to Providence. > I wonder how much a connecting flight adds? > > Elli: Do we know whether some of us need to come a day early for > giving some talks, or not? > > -James > > > On 07/02/13 16:25, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I need to book my trip soon. Is it Green Airport we should be flying into? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-02-01 08:55 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >>> answers interspersed below. >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:53 AM, James Cummings >>> <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Elli, (CC'ed rest of Council) >>>> >>>> Looking at http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i >>>> >>>> Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 April >>>> were the best dates? >>> >>> Those work for me. Saturday is easier w/ respect to room availability. >>> >>>> >>>> Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a Saturday? >>>> I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the next couple >>>> days. >>>> >>>> If not we better start organising! >>>> >>>> Questions/requirements that occur to me are: >>>> - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for informal >>>> small breakout groups? >>> >>> I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there >>> is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are >>> at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, >>> my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. >>> >>>> - We'll definitely need wifi available. ;-) >>> Brown has guest wifi >>> >>>> - We usually either book coffee breaks from whatever catering you'd normally >>>> use (or if there is a really close place to buy such refreshments) >>> both are possible >>> >>>> - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that will take a >>>> group our size each day. >>> yup, or can cater it >>> >>>> - Do you know if there is any benefit of doing the hotel booking en masse >>>> via you (i.e. Brown gets discount or something) or is better to do >>>> individually? (We've done both ways before). Can you recommend a reasonable >>>> nearby hotel with wifi? >>> Brown doesn't have official discounts, but I can ask around. Or give >>> you names so you can try for them on hotels.com. >>> >>>> - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day before, weds >>>> 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with hearing >>>> about it from you. :-) >>>> >>> I was thinking about shilling for TEI talks to the Boston DH >>> consortium, to see if anyone wants to be invited, maybe get some >>> travel defrayed. John Unsworth, as treasurer, has a vested interest >>> in keeping costs down. >>> >>>> There are some other things on >>>> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council-Meeting-Checklist but that's a >>>> start! >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> -James >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >>>> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >> > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 7 15:22:21 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 20:22:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <51140CD5.7090709@uvic.ca> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <5113D60D.9050105@it.ox.ac.uk> <51140CD5.7090709@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51140CFD.3010903@retired.ox.ac.uk> Indeed so. There's even a TRAIN! On 07/02/13 20:21, Martin Holmes wrote: > Looks like Logan would be cheaper. Flying to Green adds about $150 to > the fare for me, and although Green is only ten miles from Brown, > according to the RI transportation site I would need to walk for 36 > minutes from the airport to catch a bus to the campus. It looks much > easier to get in from Logan. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-02-07 08:27 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> I was assuming Boston/Logan Airport and then train to Providence. >> I wonder how much a connecting flight adds? >> >> Elli: Do we know whether some of us need to come a day early for >> giving some talks, or not? >> >> -James >> >> >> On 07/02/13 16:25, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> I need to book my trip soon. Is it Green Airport we should be flying into? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-02-01 08:55 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >>>> answers interspersed below. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:53 AM, James Cummings >>>> <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>> Hi Elli, (CC'ed rest of Council) >>>>> >>>>> Looking at http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i >>>>> >>>>> Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 April >>>>> were the best dates? >>>> Those work for me. Saturday is easier w/ respect to room availability. >>>> >>>>> Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a Saturday? >>>>> I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the next couple >>>>> days. >>>>> >>>>> If not we better start organising! >>>>> >>>>> Questions/requirements that occur to me are: >>>>> - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for informal >>>>> small breakout groups? >>>> I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there >>>> is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are >>>> at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, >>>> my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. >>>> >>>>> - We'll definitely need wifi available. ;-) >>>> Brown has guest wifi >>>> >>>>> - We usually either book coffee breaks from whatever catering you'd normally >>>>> use (or if there is a really close place to buy such refreshments) >>>> both are possible >>>> >>>>> - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that will take a >>>>> group our size each day. >>>> yup, or can cater it >>>> >>>>> - Do you know if there is any benefit of doing the hotel booking en masse >>>>> via you (i.e. Brown gets discount or something) or is better to do >>>>> individually? (We've done both ways before). Can you recommend a reasonable >>>>> nearby hotel with wifi? >>>> Brown doesn't have official discounts, but I can ask around. Or give >>>> you names so you can try for them on hotels.com. >>>> >>>>> - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day before, weds >>>>> 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with hearing >>>>> about it from you. :-) >>>>> >>>> I was thinking about shilling for TEI talks to the Boston DH >>>> consortium, to see if anyone wants to be invited, maybe get some >>>> travel defrayed. John Unsworth, as treasurer, has a vested interest >>>> in keeping costs down. >>>> >>>>> There are some other things on >>>>> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council-Meeting-Checklist but that's a >>>>> start! >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> -James >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >>>>> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >> From philomousos at gmail.com Thu Feb 7 15:34:32 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 15:34:32 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <51140CD5.7090709@uvic.ca> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <5113D60D.9050105@it.ox.ac.uk> <51140CD5.7090709@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <367C4F72-6285-493E-9B0C-B37E8E03CA43@gmail.com> Surely there must be taxis at least. I have a couple of newbie questions: 1) I can't travel on the 10th, so a horrifically early flight into Providence looks like my best bet. How long does it take to get to Brown from there, and what's the best mode of transport? 2) what's the procedure for reimbursements? Thanks, Hugh On Feb 7, 2013, at 15:21 , Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > Looks like Logan would be cheaper. Flying to Green adds about $150 to > the fare for me, and although Green is only ten miles from Brown, > according to the RI transportation site I would need to walk for 36 > minutes from the airport to catch a bus to the campus. It looks much > easier to get in from Logan. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-02-07 08:27 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> >> I was assuming Boston/Logan Airport and then train to Providence. >> I wonder how much a connecting flight adds? >> >> Elli: Do we know whether some of us need to come a day early for >> giving some talks, or not? >> >> -James >> >> >> On 07/02/13 16:25, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> I need to book my trip soon. Is it Green Airport we should be flying into? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-02-01 08:55 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >>>> answers interspersed below. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:53 AM, James Cummings >>>> <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Elli, (CC'ed rest of Council) >>>>> >>>>> Looking at http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i >>>>> >>>>> Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 April >>>>> were the best dates? >>>> >>>> Those work for me. Saturday is easier w/ respect to room availability. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a Saturday? >>>>> I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the next couple >>>>> days. >>>>> >>>>> If not we better start organising! >>>>> >>>>> Questions/requirements that occur to me are: >>>>> - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for informal >>>>> small breakout groups? >>>> >>>> I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there >>>> is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are >>>> at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, >>>> my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. >>>> >>>>> - We'll definitely need wifi available. ;-) >>>> Brown has guest wifi >>>> >>>>> - We usually either book coffee breaks from whatever catering you'd normally >>>>> use (or if there is a really close place to buy such refreshments) >>>> both are possible >>>> >>>>> - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that will take a >>>>> group our size each day. >>>> yup, or can cater it >>>> >>>>> - Do you know if there is any benefit of doing the hotel booking en masse >>>>> via you (i.e. Brown gets discount or something) or is better to do >>>>> individually? (We've done both ways before). Can you recommend a reasonable >>>>> nearby hotel with wifi? >>>> Brown doesn't have official discounts, but I can ask around. Or give >>>> you names so you can try for them on hotels.com. >>>> >>>>> - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day before, weds >>>>> 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with hearing >>>>> about it from you. :-) >>>>> >>>> I was thinking about shilling for TEI talks to the Boston DH >>>> consortium, to see if anyone wants to be invited, maybe get some >>>> travel defrayed. John Unsworth, as treasurer, has a vested interest >>>> in keeping costs down. >>>> >>>>> There are some other things on >>>>> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council-Meeting-Checklist but that's a >>>>> start! >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> -James >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >>>>> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >>> >> >> > > -- > Martin Holmes > University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre > (mholmes at uvic.ca) > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Feb 7 15:43:22 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:43:22 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <367C4F72-6285-493E-9B0C-B37E8E03CA43@gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <5113D60D.9050105@it.ox.ac.uk> <51140CD5.7090709@uvic.ca> <367C4F72-6285-493E-9B0C-B37E8E03CA43@gmail.com> Message-ID: <511411EA.6030505@ultraslavonic.info> On 2/7/2013 3:34 PM, Hugh Cayless wrote: > 2) what's the procedure for reimbursements? Save your receipts and submit afterwards: http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/TEI-Council-FAQ#What_funding_is_available_for_Council_Activities.3F However, best not to pay for a hotel room at this point since we're waiting to hear from Elli whether she will arrange a block of rooms from us. --Kevin From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Thu Feb 7 16:21:10 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 16:21:10 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpfEutNB0iBkKj=8esXnmnHAMAoMrRXWiMH9rnY46RYbOA@mail.gmail.com> I think I already sent this to the list when we first discussed it. international flights should go to Logan. there is a bus directly from Logan to Providence (www.peterpanbus.com) and you can also take the T to South Station and take the MBTA to Providence from there (www.mbta.com, providence line) Occasionally you can price something to Newark, with a flight to Providence, but mostly Logan is better. Within the US, you can fly to TF Green airport in Providence. It's about 12 miles from Providence, taxi costs about $25 (v. expensive, considering) or you can ride a city bus for $2 into Providence. Also, if the timing is right, the Boston commuter rail will also do it. You can also fly to Boston, some flights are cheaper, but you have to figure in another hour at least of travel time. Also, departing, TF Green is a little airport and you can get away with arriving an hour in advance, Logan is big and you have to a) leave more time and b) work with bus/train schedules. I can help with more details otherwise. --elli On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > I need to book my trip soon. Is it Green Airport we should be flying into? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-02-01 08:55 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > > answers interspersed below. > > > > On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:53 AM, James Cummings > > <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> > >> Hi Elli, (CC'ed rest of Council) > >> > >> Looking at http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i > >> > >> Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 > April > >> were the best dates? > > > > Those work for me. Saturday is easier w/ respect to room availability. > > > >> > >> Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a > Saturday? > >> I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the next > couple > >> days. > >> > >> If not we better start organising! > >> > >> Questions/requirements that occur to me are: > >> - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for > informal > >> small breakout groups? > > > > I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there > > is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are > > at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, > > my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. > > > >> - We'll definitely need wifi available. ;-) > > Brown has guest wifi > > > >> - We usually either book coffee breaks from whatever catering you'd > normally > >> use (or if there is a really close place to buy such refreshments) > > both are possible > > > >> - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that will > take a > >> group our size each day. > > yup, or can cater it > > > >> - Do you know if there is any benefit of doing the hotel booking en > masse > >> via you (i.e. Brown gets discount or something) or is better to do > >> individually? (We've done both ways before). Can you recommend a > reasonable > >> nearby hotel with wifi? > > Brown doesn't have official discounts, but I can ask around. Or give > > you names so you can try for them on hotels.com. > > > >> - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day before, > weds > >> 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with > hearing > >> about it from you. :-) > >> > > I was thinking about shilling for TEI talks to the Boston DH > > consortium, to see if anyone wants to be invited, maybe get some > > travel defrayed. John Unsworth, as treasurer, has a vested interest > > in keeping costs down. > > > >> There are some other things on > >> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council-Meeting-Checklist but that's a > >> start! > >> > >> Best, > >> -James > >> > >> -- > >> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > >> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > > -- > Martin Holmes > University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre > (mholmes at uvic.ca) > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Thu Feb 7 16:28:57 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 16:28:57 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpfEutNB0iBkKj=8esXnmnHAMAoMrRXWiMH9rnY46RYbOA@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <CAMuBKpfEutNB0iBkKj=8esXnmnHAMAoMrRXWiMH9rnY46RYbOA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpcUtdKFqjLsoN66P_ngey0dQqDnOr-A92DAhmC9DctiyA@mail.gmail.com> getting from TF Green to Providence by bus: you DON'T have to walk 36 minutes. unless you walk very, very slowly. Bus 14 and 20 stop right in front of the terminal. Bus 8 stops at the other end of a long skyway that also connects the airport to a parking garage and the train. I think it took me about 10 minutes to walk across the skyway. for taxi, see previous mail - it's about 15 minutes, but a little pricey. I'll be calling hotels tomorrow. --elli On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Mylonas, Elli <elli_mylonas at brown.edu>wrote: > I think I already sent this to the list when we first discussed it. > > international flights should go to Logan. there is a bus directly from > Logan to Providence (www.peterpanbus.com) and you can also take the T to > South Station and take the MBTA to Providence from there (www.mbta.com, > providence line) > > Occasionally you can price something to Newark, with a flight to > Providence, but mostly Logan is better. > > Within the US, you can fly to TF Green airport in Providence. It's about > 12 miles from Providence, taxi costs about $25 (v. expensive, considering) > or you can ride a city bus for $2 into Providence. Also, if the timing is > right, the Boston commuter rail will also do it. > > You can also fly to Boston, some flights are cheaper, but you have to > figure in another hour at least of travel time. Also, departing, TF Green > is a little airport and you can get away with arriving an hour in advance, > Logan is big and you have to a) leave more time and b) work with bus/train > schedules. > > I can help with more details otherwise. --elli > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > >> I need to book my trip soon. Is it Green Airport we should be flying into? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-02-01 08:55 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >> > answers interspersed below. >> > >> > On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:53 AM, James Cummings >> > <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi Elli, (CC'ed rest of Council) >> >> >> >> Looking at http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i >> >> >> >> Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 >> April >> >> were the best dates? >> > >> > Those work for me. Saturday is easier w/ respect to room availability. >> > >> >> >> >> Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a >> Saturday? >> >> I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the next >> couple >> >> days. >> >> >> >> If not we better start organising! >> >> >> >> Questions/requirements that occur to me are: >> >> - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for >> informal >> >> small breakout groups? >> > >> > I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there >> > is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are >> > at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, >> > my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. >> > >> >> - We'll definitely need wifi available. ;-) >> > Brown has guest wifi >> > >> >> - We usually either book coffee breaks from whatever catering you'd >> normally >> >> use (or if there is a really close place to buy such refreshments) >> > both are possible >> > >> >> - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that will >> take a >> >> group our size each day. >> > yup, or can cater it >> > >> >> - Do you know if there is any benefit of doing the hotel booking en >> masse >> >> via you (i.e. Brown gets discount or something) or is better to do >> >> individually? (We've done both ways before). Can you recommend a >> reasonable >> >> nearby hotel with wifi? >> > Brown doesn't have official discounts, but I can ask around. Or give >> > you names so you can try for them on hotels.com. >> > >> >> - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day >> before, weds >> >> 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with >> hearing >> >> about it from you. :-) >> >> >> > I was thinking about shilling for TEI talks to the Boston DH >> > consortium, to see if anyone wants to be invited, maybe get some >> > travel defrayed. John Unsworth, as treasurer, has a vested interest >> > in keeping costs down. >> > >> >> There are some other things on >> >> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council-Meeting-Checklist but that's a >> >> start! >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> -James >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >> >> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >> >> -- >> Martin Holmes >> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre >> (mholmes at uvic.ca) >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> > > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 7 16:30:54 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 21:30:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <51140CD5.7090709@uvic.ca> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <5113D60D.9050105@it.ox.ac.uk> <51140CD5.7090709@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <790EFFD2-C961-4173-9EAD-F21A3DC064F7@it.ox.ac.uk> so we're looking at working on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, then departing leisurely on Sunday? -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Thu Feb 7 16:32:33 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 16:32:33 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpcUtdKFqjLsoN66P_ngey0dQqDnOr-A92DAhmC9DctiyA@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <CAMuBKpfEutNB0iBkKj=8esXnmnHAMAoMrRXWiMH9rnY46RYbOA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpcUtdKFqjLsoN66P_ngey0dQqDnOr-A92DAhmC9DctiyA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpf4BU-eGH3o28=W7_CXtO36J=z8NLTfB1TmkNyhMh1h3g@mail.gmail.com> One last question about the meeting: Are any of you interested in perhaps giving a talk before the meeting? I can contact the Boston area DH group to see if we can organize something. I figure this might be a way to defray some travel for the TEI. Will anyone be here during the day on Wednesday? --elli On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Mylonas, Elli <elli_mylonas at brown.edu>wrote: > getting from TF Green to Providence by bus: you DON'T have to walk 36 > minutes. unless you walk very, very slowly. Bus 14 and 20 stop right in > front of the terminal. Bus 8 stops at the other end of a long skyway that > also connects the airport to a parking garage and the train. I think it > took me about 10 minutes to walk across the skyway. > > for taxi, see previous mail - it's about 15 minutes, but a little pricey. > > I'll be calling hotels tomorrow. --elli > > > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Mylonas, Elli <elli_mylonas at brown.edu>wrote: > >> I think I already sent this to the list when we first discussed it. >> >> international flights should go to Logan. there is a bus directly from >> Logan to Providence (www.peterpanbus.com) and you can also take the T to >> South Station and take the MBTA to Providence from there (www.mbta.com, >> providence line) >> >> Occasionally you can price something to Newark, with a flight to >> Providence, but mostly Logan is better. >> >> Within the US, you can fly to TF Green airport in Providence. It's about >> 12 miles from Providence, taxi costs about $25 (v. expensive, considering) >> or you can ride a city bus for $2 into Providence. Also, if the timing is >> right, the Boston commuter rail will also do it. >> >> You can also fly to Boston, some flights are cheaper, but you have to >> figure in another hour at least of travel time. Also, departing, TF Green >> is a little airport and you can get away with arriving an hour in advance, >> Logan is big and you have to a) leave more time and b) work with bus/train >> schedules. >> >> I can help with more details otherwise. --elli >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: >> >>> I need to book my trip soon. Is it Green Airport we should be flying >>> into? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-02-01 08:55 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >>> > answers interspersed below. >>> > >>> > On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:53 AM, James Cummings >>> > <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Hi Elli, (CC'ed rest of Council) >>> >> >>> >> Looking at http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i >>> >> >>> >> Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 >>> April >>> >> were the best dates? >>> > >>> > Those work for me. Saturday is easier w/ respect to room availability. >>> > >>> >> >>> >> Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a >>> Saturday? >>> >> I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the next >>> couple >>> >> days. >>> >> >>> >> If not we better start organising! >>> >> >>> >> Questions/requirements that occur to me are: >>> >> - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for >>> informal >>> >> small breakout groups? >>> > >>> > I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there >>> > is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are >>> > at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, >>> > my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. >>> > >>> >> - We'll definitely need wifi available. ;-) >>> > Brown has guest wifi >>> > >>> >> - We usually either book coffee breaks from whatever catering you'd >>> normally >>> >> use (or if there is a really close place to buy such refreshments) >>> > both are possible >>> > >>> >> - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that will >>> take a >>> >> group our size each day. >>> > yup, or can cater it >>> > >>> >> - Do you know if there is any benefit of doing the hotel booking en >>> masse >>> >> via you (i.e. Brown gets discount or something) or is better to do >>> >> individually? (We've done both ways before). Can you recommend a >>> reasonable >>> >> nearby hotel with wifi? >>> > Brown doesn't have official discounts, but I can ask around. Or give >>> > you names so you can try for them on hotels.com. >>> > >>> >> - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day >>> before, weds >>> >> 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with >>> hearing >>> >> about it from you. :-) >>> >> >>> > I was thinking about shilling for TEI talks to the Boston DH >>> > consortium, to see if anyone wants to be invited, maybe get some >>> > travel defrayed. John Unsworth, as treasurer, has a vested interest >>> > in keeping costs down. >>> > >>> >> There are some other things on >>> >> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council-Meeting-Checklist but that's >>> a >>> >> start! >>> >> >>> >> Best, >>> >> -James >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >>> >> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >>> >>> -- >>> Martin Holmes >>> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre >>> (mholmes at uvic.ca) >>> -- >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >>> >> >> > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 7 16:40:12 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 21:40:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpf4BU-eGH3o28=W7_CXtO36J=z8NLTfB1TmkNyhMh1h3g@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <CAMuBKpfEutNB0iBkKj=8esXnmnHAMAoMrRXWiMH9rnY46RYbOA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpcUtdKFqjLsoN66P_ngey0dQqDnOr-A92DAhmC9DctiyA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpf4BU-eGH3o28=W7_CXtO36J=z8NLTfB1TmkNyhMh1h3g@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <C41DF579-2761-4C8D-A8A4-B449745B8328@it.ox.ac.uk> On 7 Feb 2013, at 21:32, "Mylonas, Elli" <elli_mylonas at brown.edu> wrote: > Are any of you interested in perhaps giving a talk before the meeting? I > can contact the Boston area DH group to see if we can organize something. I > figure this might be a way to defray some travel for the TEI. > > Will anyone be here during the day on Wednesday? --elli Depends which of us you can make effective use of. I, for example, can talk TEI and eBooks, ODD, XSLT, and CLAROS (www.clarosnet.org) until blood runs from your eyes in sheer boredom, but no doubt others can do the same with their fave topic. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Feb 7 18:29:44 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 15:29:44 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpcUtdKFqjLsoN66P_ngey0dQqDnOr-A92DAhmC9DctiyA@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <CAMuBKpfEutNB0iBkKj=8esXnmnHAMAoMrRXWiMH9rnY46RYbOA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpcUtdKFqjLsoN66P_ngey0dQqDnOr-A92DAhmC9DctiyA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <511438E8.6020605@uvic.ca> Weird. I went to the RIPTA site, and entered from: tf green, to: brown university campus, and got this: <http://maps.google.com/maps?start=0&dirflg=r&mra=ls&sll=41.8249%2C-71.4119&sspn=0.2%2C0.2&=0&ttype=dep&date=02%2F07%2F13&saddr=tf+green&daddr=brown+university+campus&time=6%3A30pm> All the options show lengthy walks. But the airport site does show buses, now I've found it. Cheers, Martin On 13-02-07 01:28 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > getting from TF Green to Providence by bus: you DON'T have to walk 36 > minutes. unless you walk very, very slowly. Bus 14 and 20 stop right in > front of the terminal. Bus 8 stops at the other end of a long skyway that > also connects the airport to a parking garage and the train. I think it > took me about 10 minutes to walk across the skyway. > > for taxi, see previous mail - it's about 15 minutes, but a little pricey. > > I'll be calling hotels tomorrow. --elli > > > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Mylonas, Elli <elli_mylonas at brown.edu>wrote: > >> I think I already sent this to the list when we first discussed it. >> >> international flights should go to Logan. there is a bus directly from >> Logan to Providence (www.peterpanbus.com) and you can also take the T to >> South Station and take the MBTA to Providence from there (www.mbta.com, >> providence line) >> >> Occasionally you can price something to Newark, with a flight to >> Providence, but mostly Logan is better. >> >> Within the US, you can fly to TF Green airport in Providence. It's about >> 12 miles from Providence, taxi costs about $25 (v. expensive, considering) >> or you can ride a city bus for $2 into Providence. Also, if the timing is >> right, the Boston commuter rail will also do it. >> >> You can also fly to Boston, some flights are cheaper, but you have to >> figure in another hour at least of travel time. Also, departing, TF Green >> is a little airport and you can get away with arriving an hour in advance, >> Logan is big and you have to a) leave more time and b) work with bus/train >> schedules. >> >> I can help with more details otherwise. --elli >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: >> >>> I need to book my trip soon. Is it Green Airport we should be flying into? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-02-01 08:55 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >>>> answers interspersed below. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:53 AM, James Cummings >>>> <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Elli, (CC'ed rest of Council) >>>>> >>>>> Looking at http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i >>>>> >>>>> Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 >>> April >>>>> were the best dates? >>>> >>>> Those work for me. Saturday is easier w/ respect to room availability. >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a >>> Saturday? >>>>> I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the next >>> couple >>>>> days. >>>>> >>>>> If not we better start organising! >>>>> >>>>> Questions/requirements that occur to me are: >>>>> - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for >>> informal >>>>> small breakout groups? >>>> >>>> I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there >>>> is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are >>>> at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, >>>> my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. >>>> >>>>> - We'll definitely need wifi available. ;-) >>>> Brown has guest wifi >>>> >>>>> - We usually either book coffee breaks from whatever catering you'd >>> normally >>>>> use (or if there is a really close place to buy such refreshments) >>>> both are possible >>>> >>>>> - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that will >>> take a >>>>> group our size each day. >>>> yup, or can cater it >>>> >>>>> - Do you know if there is any benefit of doing the hotel booking en >>> masse >>>>> via you (i.e. Brown gets discount or something) or is better to do >>>>> individually? (We've done both ways before). Can you recommend a >>> reasonable >>>>> nearby hotel with wifi? >>>> Brown doesn't have official discounts, but I can ask around. Or give >>>> you names so you can try for them on hotels.com. >>>> >>>>> - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day >>> before, weds >>>>> 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with >>> hearing >>>>> about it from you. :-) >>>>> >>>> I was thinking about shilling for TEI talks to the Boston DH >>>> consortium, to see if anyone wants to be invited, maybe get some >>>> travel defrayed. John Unsworth, as treasurer, has a vested interest >>>> in keeping costs down. >>>> >>>>> There are some other things on >>>>> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council-Meeting-Checklist but that's a >>>>> start! >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> -James >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >>>>> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >>> >>> -- >>> Martin Holmes >>> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre >>> (mholmes at uvic.ca) >>> -- >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >>> >> >> -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Feb 7 18:34:33 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 18:34:33 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <C41DF579-2761-4C8D-A8A4-B449745B8328@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <CAMuBKpfEutNB0iBkKj=8esXnmnHAMAoMrRXWiMH9rnY46RYbOA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpcUtdKFqjLsoN66P_ngey0dQqDnOr-A92DAhmC9DctiyA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpf4BU-eGH3o28=W7_CXtO36J=z8NLTfB1TmkNyhMh1h3g@mail.gmail.com> <C41DF579-2761-4C8D-A8A4-B449745B8328@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20756.14857.733409.44309@emt.ad.brown.edu> Just to reiterate what Elli has already said -- flying from within the U.S., and I daresay Canada, you do better to fly into T. F. Green airport (PVD). Busses from airport to downtown Providence are $2. Depending on when you are arriving or departing, I can likely give some folks rides. Flying internationally you probably do best to fly into Boston's Logan airport (BOS). I am not likely to be able to pick up & drop off folks at Logan. A commercial bus[1] takes > 1.5 hrs, but costs only $28. (You can purchase tickets on the bus -- I suppose in theory if the bus were full, you'd be out of luck, but I have never seen one 1/2 full, let alone full.) The train[2] involves taking a "Silver line" bus from the airport to the train station. Overall it is a little faster or slower than the commercial bus depending on layover, etc. Costs a little less and has (slow) free wireless. However, trains don't run very often. Notes ----- [1] Use http://peterpanbus.com/, enter "Boston Logan Arpt, MA" and "Providence Kennedy Plz BZ, RI" as your destinations. [2] Use http://www.mbta.com/rider_tools/trip_planner/ and plug in "Air - Logan Airport (Terminal E)" and "Providence Station" as your destinations. From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Feb 7 18:38:37 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 15:38:37 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpf4BU-eGH3o28=W7_CXtO36J=z8NLTfB1TmkNyhMh1h3g@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <CAMuBKpfEutNB0iBkKj=8esXnmnHAMAoMrRXWiMH9rnY46RYbOA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpcUtdKFqjLsoN66P_ngey0dQqDnOr-A92DAhmC9DctiyA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpf4BU-eGH3o28=W7_CXtO36J=z8NLTfB1TmkNyhMh1h3g@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51143AFD.3020801@uvic.ca> It looks like my best bet, since I'm going east, is to set off Tuesday afternoon and arrive some time on Wednesday, hopefully before lunch. That would put me there for Wednesday afternoon or evening. I've promised James a talk for DHOXSS in July, which I could also give, about an API and web service for providing encoding examples directly from a TEI project database. Something like "Turn your TEI site into a a repository of TEI coding examples" -- can't figure out a snappy title yet. Too geeky? Cheers, Martin On 13-02-07 01:32 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > One last question about the meeting: > > Are any of you interested in perhaps giving a talk before the meeting? I > can contact the Boston area DH group to see if we can organize something. I > figure this might be a way to defray some travel for the TEI. > > Will anyone be here during the day on Wednesday? --elli > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Mylonas, Elli <elli_mylonas at brown.edu>wrote: > >> getting from TF Green to Providence by bus: you DON'T have to walk 36 >> minutes. unless you walk very, very slowly. Bus 14 and 20 stop right in >> front of the terminal. Bus 8 stops at the other end of a long skyway that >> also connects the airport to a parking garage and the train. I think it >> took me about 10 minutes to walk across the skyway. >> >> for taxi, see previous mail - it's about 15 minutes, but a little pricey. >> >> I'll be calling hotels tomorrow. --elli >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Mylonas, Elli <elli_mylonas at brown.edu>wrote: >> >>> I think I already sent this to the list when we first discussed it. >>> >>> international flights should go to Logan. there is a bus directly from >>> Logan to Providence (www.peterpanbus.com) and you can also take the T to >>> South Station and take the MBTA to Providence from there (www.mbta.com, >>> providence line) >>> >>> Occasionally you can price something to Newark, with a flight to >>> Providence, but mostly Logan is better. >>> >>> Within the US, you can fly to TF Green airport in Providence. It's about >>> 12 miles from Providence, taxi costs about $25 (v. expensive, considering) >>> or you can ride a city bus for $2 into Providence. Also, if the timing is >>> right, the Boston commuter rail will also do it. >>> >>> You can also fly to Boston, some flights are cheaper, but you have to >>> figure in another hour at least of travel time. Also, departing, TF Green >>> is a little airport and you can get away with arriving an hour in advance, >>> Logan is big and you have to a) leave more time and b) work with bus/train >>> schedules. >>> >>> I can help with more details otherwise. --elli >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: >>> >>>> I need to book my trip soon. Is it Green Airport we should be flying >>>> into? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On 13-02-01 08:55 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >>>>> answers interspersed below. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:53 AM, James Cummings >>>>> <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Elli, (CC'ed rest of Council) >>>>>> >>>>>> Looking at http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i >>>>>> >>>>>> Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 >>>> April >>>>>> were the best dates? >>>>> >>>>> Those work for me. Saturday is easier w/ respect to room availability. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a >>>> Saturday? >>>>>> I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the next >>>> couple >>>>>> days. >>>>>> >>>>>> If not we better start organising! >>>>>> >>>>>> Questions/requirements that occur to me are: >>>>>> - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for >>>> informal >>>>>> small breakout groups? >>>>> >>>>> I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there >>>>> is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are >>>>> at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, >>>>> my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. >>>>> >>>>>> - We'll definitely need wifi available. ;-) >>>>> Brown has guest wifi >>>>> >>>>>> - We usually either book coffee breaks from whatever catering you'd >>>> normally >>>>>> use (or if there is a really close place to buy such refreshments) >>>>> both are possible >>>>> >>>>>> - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that will >>>> take a >>>>>> group our size each day. >>>>> yup, or can cater it >>>>> >>>>>> - Do you know if there is any benefit of doing the hotel booking en >>>> masse >>>>>> via you (i.e. Brown gets discount or something) or is better to do >>>>>> individually? (We've done both ways before). Can you recommend a >>>> reasonable >>>>>> nearby hotel with wifi? >>>>> Brown doesn't have official discounts, but I can ask around. Or give >>>>> you names so you can try for them on hotels.com. >>>>> >>>>>> - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day >>>> before, weds >>>>>> 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with >>>> hearing >>>>>> about it from you. :-) >>>>>> >>>>> I was thinking about shilling for TEI talks to the Boston DH >>>>> consortium, to see if anyone wants to be invited, maybe get some >>>>> travel defrayed. John Unsworth, as treasurer, has a vested interest >>>>> in keeping costs down. >>>>> >>>>>> There are some other things on >>>>>> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council-Meeting-Checklist but that's >>>> a >>>>>> start! >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> -James >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >>>>>> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Martin Holmes >>>> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre >>>> (mholmes at uvic.ca) >>>> -- >>>> tei-council mailing list >>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>>> >>>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >>>> >>> >>> >> -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Thu Feb 7 18:47:59 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 18:47:59 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <51143AFD.3020801@uvic.ca> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <CAMuBKpfEutNB0iBkKj=8esXnmnHAMAoMrRXWiMH9rnY46RYbOA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpcUtdKFqjLsoN66P_ngey0dQqDnOr-A92DAhmC9DctiyA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpf4BU-eGH3o28=W7_CXtO36J=z8NLTfB1TmkNyhMh1h3g@mail.gmail.com> <51143AFD.3020801@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpehGvNnNDuURLV47cjbw3k93YYJxCnc+X8HJ_oBXvGk6Q@mail.gmail.com> This is a great example of Google maps being too literal. in the appended picture. Google is calculating distances from the balloon labelled "A". This is at the back of the airport, behind the runway. It thinks you have to circumnavigate the whole airport. At least TF Green only has 2 runways... Actually, you exit the airport exactly where the dot is on the 20 - that is the airport terminal building. And you can see the bus loop in front of it I think it works better if you type "TF Green Airport Terminal" as the location. For all I know, the "A" is the airport offices. Btw, for the Americans, or N. Americans, note that Southwest and Jet Blue also fly to TF Green. You won't pick them up on Orbitz or Kayak. --elli [image: Inline image 1] On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 6:38 PM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > It looks like my best bet, since I'm going east, is to set off Tuesday > afternoon and arrive some time on Wednesday, hopefully before lunch. > That would put me there for Wednesday afternoon or evening. I've > promised James a talk for DHOXSS in July, which I could also give, about > an API and web service for providing encoding examples directly from a > TEI project database. Something like "Turn your TEI site into a a > repository of TEI coding examples" -- can't figure out a snappy title > yet. Too geeky? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-02-07 01:32 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > > One last question about the meeting: > > > > Are any of you interested in perhaps giving a talk before the meeting? I > > can contact the Boston area DH group to see if we can organize > something. I > > figure this might be a way to defray some travel for the TEI. > > > > Will anyone be here during the day on Wednesday? --elli > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:28 PM, Mylonas, Elli <elli_mylonas at brown.edu > >wrote: > > > >> getting from TF Green to Providence by bus: you DON'T have to walk 36 > >> minutes. unless you walk very, very slowly. Bus 14 and 20 stop right in > >> front of the terminal. Bus 8 stops at the other end of a long skyway > that > >> also connects the airport to a parking garage and the train. I think it > >> took me about 10 minutes to walk across the skyway. > >> > >> for taxi, see previous mail - it's about 15 minutes, but a little > pricey. > >> > >> I'll be calling hotels tomorrow. --elli > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Mylonas, Elli <elli_mylonas at brown.edu > >wrote: > >> > >>> I think I already sent this to the list when we first discussed it. > >>> > >>> international flights should go to Logan. there is a bus directly from > >>> Logan to Providence (www.peterpanbus.com) and you can also take the T > to > >>> South Station and take the MBTA to Providence from there (www.mbta.com > , > >>> providence line) > >>> > >>> Occasionally you can price something to Newark, with a flight to > >>> Providence, but mostly Logan is better. > >>> > >>> Within the US, you can fly to TF Green airport in Providence. It's > about > >>> 12 miles from Providence, taxi costs about $25 (v. expensive, > considering) > >>> or you can ride a city bus for $2 into Providence. Also, if the timing > is > >>> right, the Boston commuter rail will also do it. > >>> > >>> You can also fly to Boston, some flights are cheaper, but you have to > >>> figure in another hour at least of travel time. Also, departing, TF > Green > >>> is a little airport and you can get away with arriving an hour in > advance, > >>> Logan is big and you have to a) leave more time and b) work with > bus/train > >>> schedules. > >>> > >>> I can help with more details otherwise. --elli > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote: > >>> > >>>> I need to book my trip soon. Is it Green Airport we should be flying > >>>> into? > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Martin > >>>> > >>>> On 13-02-01 08:55 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > >>>>> answers interspersed below. > >>>>> > >>>>> On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 10:53 AM, James Cummings > >>>>> <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hi Elli, (CC'ed rest of Council) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Looking at http://www.doodle.com/58khxi5tk9eieg3i > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Did we finally decide that Thursday 11, Friday 12 , and Saturday 13 > >>>> April > >>>>>> were the best dates? > >>>>> > >>>>> Those work for me. Saturday is easier w/ respect to room > availability. > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Does anyone have any serious objections to the last day being a > >>>> Saturday? > >>>>>> I'll assume everyone is good with this unless you respond in the > next > >>>> couple > >>>>>> days. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If not we better start organising! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Questions/requirements that occur to me are: > >>>>>> - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for > >>>> informal > >>>>>> small breakout groups? > >>>>> > >>>>> I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there > >>>>> is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are > >>>>> at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to > DSL, > >>>>> my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. > >>>>> > >>>>>> - We'll definitely need wifi available. ;-) > >>>>> Brown has guest wifi > >>>>> > >>>>>> - We usually either book coffee breaks from whatever catering you'd > >>>> normally > >>>>>> use (or if there is a really close place to buy such refreshments) > >>>>> both are possible > >>>>> > >>>>>> - We'll need at least reservations for lunch at some places that > will > >>>> take a > >>>>>> group our size each day. > >>>>> yup, or can cater it > >>>>> > >>>>>> - Do you know if there is any benefit of doing the hotel booking en > >>>> masse > >>>>>> via you (i.e. Brown gets discount or something) or is better to do > >>>>>> individually? (We've done both ways before). Can you recommend a > >>>> reasonable > >>>>>> nearby hotel with wifi? > >>>>> Brown doesn't have official discounts, but I can ask around. Or give > >>>>> you names so you can try for them on hotels.com. > >>>>> > >>>>>> - Is it helpful for some of us to gives talks (possibly the day > >>>> before, weds > >>>>>> 10) on our TEI-related work? Are locals interested or fed up with > >>>> hearing > >>>>>> about it from you. :-) > >>>>>> > >>>>> I was thinking about shilling for TEI talks to the Boston DH > >>>>> consortium, to see if anyone wants to be invited, maybe get some > >>>>> travel defrayed. John Unsworth, as treasurer, has a vested interest > >>>>> in keeping costs down. > >>>>> > >>>>>> There are some other things on > >>>>>> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council-Meeting-Checklist but > that's > >>>> a > >>>>>> start! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Best, > >>>>>> -James > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > >>>>>> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Martin Holmes > >>>> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre > >>>> (mholmes at uvic.ca) > >>>> -- > >>>> tei-council mailing list > >>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > >>>> > >>>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > -- > Martin Holmes > University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre > (mholmes at uvic.ca) > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 54724 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20130207/67a9d56c/attachment-0001.jpe From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 8 06:02:59 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 11:02:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <C41DF579-2761-4C8D-A8A4-B449745B8328@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <CAMuBKpfEutNB0iBkKj=8esXnmnHAMAoMrRXWiMH9rnY46RYbOA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpcUtdKFqjLsoN66P_ngey0dQqDnOr-A92DAhmC9DctiyA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpf4BU-eGH3o28=W7_CXtO36J=z8NLTfB1TmkNyhMh1h3g@mail.gmail.com> <C41DF579-2761-4C8D-A8A4-B449745B8328@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5114DB63.5010201@it.ox.ac.uk> On 07/02/13 21:40, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 7 Feb 2013, at 21:32, "Mylonas, Elli" <elli_mylonas at brown.edu> > wrote: > >> Are any of you interested in perhaps giving a talk before the meeting? I >> can contact the Boston area DH group to see if we can organize something. I >> figure this might be a way to defray some travel for the TEI. >> >> Will anyone be here during the day on Wednesday? --elli > > > Depends which of us you can make > effective use of. I, for example, can talk TEI and eBooks, ODD, XSLT, > and CLAROS (www.clarosnet.org) until blood runs from your eyes in sheer > boredom, but no doubt others can do the same with their fave topic. Likewise I could be there on Wednesday and could talk about a variety of the TEI-related projects we've been involved with; depends what you feel will be most useful to the audience. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Feb 8 09:36:21 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 09:36:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] dead link (fwd) Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302080933340.5736@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Two of the XSD P5 customizations listed at http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/ are not in the release directory (/projects/tei/web/release/xml/tei/custom/schema/xsd on the filesystem): tei_lite.xsd and tei_tite.xsd. As all other formats for those customizations are available, I guess this is from a bug in the Makefile or latest release process? Files in that directory have date stamps of 17 January. David ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 13:01:47 +0100 From: Jens ?stergaard Petersen <oesterg at gmail.com> To: web at tei-c.org Subject: dead link Hi, On <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/#community>, the link <http://www.tei-c.org/release/xml/tei/custom/schema/xsd/tei_lite.xsd> is dead. Jens From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 8 10:50:52 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 15:50:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] dead link (fwd) In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302080933340.5736@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302080933340.5736@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <2BE642BC-B478-49CA-8E42-4BDA81DA8B5C@it.ox.ac.uk> On 8 Feb 2013, at 14:36, David Sewell <dsewell at virginia.edu> wrote: > Two of the XSD P5 customizations listed at http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/ are not in the release directory (/projects/tei/web/release/xml/tei/custom/schema/xsd on the filesystem): tei_lite.xsd and tei_tite.xsd. As all other formats for those customizations are available, I guess this is from a bug in the Makefile or latest release process? oh dear me. that's not good. I have found the bug (missing the word "xsd" in a line in the Exemplars Makefile), and remade the schemas using the source from 17th Jan, will upload to web as hot fix later -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Feb 8 10:52:42 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:52:42 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] dead link (fwd) In-Reply-To: <2BE642BC-B478-49CA-8E42-4BDA81DA8B5C@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302080933340.5736@lister.ei.virginia.edu> <2BE642BC-B478-49CA-8E42-4BDA81DA8B5C@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51151F4A.2000801@ultraslavonic.info> Sebastian, when you remade the schemes, did it also generate the dictionaries customization? If so, and if you add them to the release directory as a hot fix as well, David or I can add the links to the dictionary back to http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/ (since we only recently removed them when the customization disappeared). On 2/8/2013 10:50 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 8 Feb 2013, at 14:36, David Sewell<dsewell at virginia.edu> wrote: > >> Two of the XSD P5 customizations listed at http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/ are not in the release directory (/projects/tei/web/release/xml/tei/custom/schema/xsd on the filesystem): tei_lite.xsd and tei_tite.xsd. As all other formats for those customizations are available, I guess this is from a bug in the Makefile or latest release process? > > > oh dear me. that's not good. I have found the bug (missing the word "xsd" in a line in the Exemplars Makefile), > and remade the schemas using the source from 17th Jan, will upload to web as hot fix later > > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 8 12:23:22 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 17:23:22 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] dead link (fwd) In-Reply-To: <51151F4A.2000801@ultraslavonic.info> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302080933340.5736@lister.ei.virginia.edu> <2BE642BC-B478-49CA-8E42-4BDA81DA8B5C@it.ox.ac.uk> <51151F4A.2000801@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <E3B5B4ED-8C5C-47D9-A1E3-E0E7D329FDA3@it.ox.ac.uk> On 8 Feb 2013, at 15:52, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > Sebastian, when you remade the schemes, did it also generate the > dictionaries customization? If so, and if you add them to the release > directory as a hot fix as well, David or I can add the links to the > dictionary back to http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/ (since > we only recently removed them when the customization disappeared). > I am afraid the dictionaries customisation is entirely extinct. I can't now recall when and where it was decided that it was not useful (it was a experiment by Laurent), but I swear i had a mandate to remove it? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 8 12:26:47 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 17:26:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] dead link (fwd) In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302080933340.5736@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302080933340.5736@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <F863B145-50C8-4C07-936A-90F1B49AE590@it.ox.ac.uk> I have got the wandering children in place e.g. http://www.tei-c.org/release/xml/tei/custom/schema/xsd/tei_lite.xsd -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 8 14:12:30 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 19:12:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] dead link (fwd) In-Reply-To: <E3B5B4ED-8C5C-47D9-A1E3-E0E7D329FDA3@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302080933340.5736@lister.ei.virginia.edu> <2BE642BC-B478-49CA-8E42-4BDA81DA8B5C@it.ox.ac.uk> <51151F4A.2000801@ultraslavonic.info> <E3B5B4ED-8C5C-47D9-A1E3-E0E7D329FDA3@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51154E1E.1050702@it.ox.ac.uk> That is my recollection as well. I seem to remember Council when Laurent was still chair deciding to remove this. -James On 08/02/13 17:23, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 8 Feb 2013, at 15:52, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> > wrote: > >> Sebastian, when you remade the schemes, did it also generate the >> dictionaries customization? If so, and if you add them to the release >> directory as a hot fix as well, David or I can add the links to the >> dictionary back to http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/Customization/ (since >> we only recently removed them when the customization disappeared). >> > I am afraid the dictionaries customisation is entirely extinct. I can't now recall > when and where it was decided that it was not useful (it was a experiment by Laurent), > but I swear i had a mandate to remove it? > > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Research Support, IT Services, University of Oxford From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Fri Feb 8 18:54:59 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 18:54:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <5114DB63.5010201@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <CAMuBKpfEutNB0iBkKj=8esXnmnHAMAoMrRXWiMH9rnY46RYbOA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpcUtdKFqjLsoN66P_ngey0dQqDnOr-A92DAhmC9DctiyA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpf4BU-eGH3o28=W7_CXtO36J=z8NLTfB1TmkNyhMh1h3g@mail.gmail.com> <C41DF579-2761-4C8D-A8A4-B449745B8328@it.ox.ac.uk> <5114DB63.5010201@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1302081839030.27226@goldenaxe.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> (1) Since I only fly when compelled to do so, I may well end up driving (it's about a 16-18 hour drive the way I drive, given that Providence is stuck out on the rim of nowhere....) I've driven to Providence once before and vaguely recall that there's nowhere to park, and nowhere affordable to stay -- I think we ended up in a motel halfway to New Haven :) I would be pleased to be corrected on both points. (2) I am of course always glad to talk TCP stuff, but am unsure if anyone is interested or if that would be appropriate. pfs ps I have a house in SE Vermont and a brother and daughter in Boston, which might influence the choice of travel methods. On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, James Cummings wrote: > On 07/02/13 21:40, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> On 7 Feb 2013, at 21:32, "Mylonas, Elli" <elli_mylonas at brown.edu> >> wrote: >> >>> Are any of you interested in perhaps giving a talk before the meeting? I >>> can contact the Boston area DH group to see if we can organize something. I >>> figure this might be a way to defray some travel for the TEI. >>> >>> Will anyone be here during the day on Wednesday? --elli >> >> >> Depends which of us you can make >> effective use of. I, for example, can talk TEI and eBooks, ODD, XSLT, >> and CLAROS (www.clarosnet.org) until blood runs from your eyes in sheer >> boredom, but no doubt others can do the same with their fave topic. > > Likewise I could be there on Wednesday and could talk about a > variety of the TEI-related projects we've been involved with; > depends what you feel will be most useful to the audience. > > -James > > -- > Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Feb 8 19:09:14 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 19:09:14 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1302081839030.27226@goldenaxe.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <5113D55D.4080805@uvic.ca> <CAMuBKpfEutNB0iBkKj=8esXnmnHAMAoMrRXWiMH9rnY46RYbOA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpcUtdKFqjLsoN66P_ngey0dQqDnOr-A92DAhmC9DctiyA@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpf4BU-eGH3o28=W7_CXtO36J=z8NLTfB1TmkNyhMh1h3g@mail.gmail.com> <C41DF579-2761-4C8D-A8A4-B449745B8328@it.ox.ac.uk> <5114DB63.5010201@it.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1302081839030.27226@goldenaxe.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <511593AA.1090302@ultraslavonic.info> On 2/8/13 6:54 PM, Paul F. Schaffner wrote: > given that Providence > is stuck out on the rim of nowhere....) LOL. Providence, with commuter trains to Boston and a location amidst the northeast Megalopolis, on the rim of nowhere!? You know, a lotta people "back east" think of places like Michigan as being on the rim of nowhere! From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Feb 9 09:48:50 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 09:48:50 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Stormy Weather In-Reply-To: <735F870C-BCD8-4726-A599-05147020886F@earthlink.net> References: <CAABXsyRy5JhtzWbopLT1=w43h0eK8hx2dX2R7Gt0Cm0LV1r-pQ@mail.gmail.com> <5C71FAAC-7C7A-4F82-ACCF-BA18D3F1E92D@comcast.net> <1B047227A5B542D7BED64ECDEE8AB55A@DBBHGPM1> <4E519AFD-6D3A-445C-8414-D396A87A19EF@earthlink.net> <50212A91F49A404C93BAEA52A894CF72EAF252@wf-server.wf-domain.local> <735F870C-BCD8-4726-A599-05147020886F@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20758.25042.865354.71381@emt.ad.brown.edu> We have no power, probably for days to a week or so. Julia and Elli are probably out of power, too. From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Sat Feb 9 10:19:14 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 10:19:14 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Stormy Weather In-Reply-To: <20758.25042.865354.71381@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <CAABXsyRy5JhtzWbopLT1=w43h0eK8hx2dX2R7Gt0Cm0LV1r-pQ@mail.gmail.com> <5C71FAAC-7C7A-4F82-ACCF-BA18D3F1E92D@comcast.net> <1B047227A5B542D7BED64ECDEE8AB55A@DBBHGPM1> <4E519AFD-6D3A-445C-8414-D396A87A19EF@earthlink.net> <50212A91F49A404C93BAEA52A894CF72EAF252@wf-server.wf-domain.local> <735F870C-BCD8-4726-A599-05147020886F@earthlink.net> <20758.25042.865354.71381@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpd7+2L7kxffoZzjWqLpNEB2fu8R-XU16+K8ziSHvaaMQg@mail.gmail.com> Can't speak for Julia, but fortunately the urban center is holding out well. We have close to 2 feet of snow, lots of drifts that are worse, sadly exactly where we have to shovel. But we have power. Can offer shower and other help if anyone needs it, once we can all circulate again. The roads are nominally plowed, but not advisable to drive yet. As I embark on a day of hard labor, I hope everyone else is ok. --elli On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 9:48 AM, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at brown.edu> wrote: > We have no power, probably for days to a week or so. Julia and Elli > are probably out of power, too. > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Feb 10 15:39:04 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 15:39:04 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] outdated navbar and footer on tei.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <emypild5wfqv1m6ovxdg52wa.1359846360300@email.android.com> References: <510D8ECB.6070602@ultraslavonic.info> <emypild5wfqv1m6ovxdg52wa.1359846360300@email.android.com> Message-ID: <51180568.9060908@ultraslavonic.info> That sounds right to me, but I don't feel like the best person to mess with the build process. Sebastian, could you look into this? --Kevin On 2/2/13 6:06 PM, James Cummings wrote: > > I had previously manually cut and pasted this... since the download package is copied to sourceforge it seems possible that we could copy a new version of this file at the same time? > > JamesC > > Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > > > The navbar and footer on tei.sourceforge.net are old snapshots of what > was being served by OpenCMS, but a number of things have changed since > this was last updated. Could someone update this? Better yet, is there > a way of incorporating this into the build process, much like we've done > with the navbar on all HTML pages of P5? > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 10 16:11:44 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 21:11:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] outdated navbar and footer on tei.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <51180568.9060908@ultraslavonic.info> References: <510D8ECB.6070602@ultraslavonic.info> <emypild5wfqv1m6ovxdg52wa.1359846360300@email.android.com> <51180568.9060908@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <DC9A3BE1-E964-4B7C-B281-1880B1C601AD@it.ox.ac.uk> On 10 Feb 2013, at 20:39, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > That sounds right to me, but I don't feel like the best person to mess > with the build process. Sebastian, could you look into this? --Kevin > the web page at tei.sourceforge.net is managed separated from the downloads which are created by the build process. to be honest, I have no memory of how to edit it any more :-} it looks like its explained at https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/sourceforge/wiki/Project%20web -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sun Feb 10 20:49:31 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 20:49:31 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Stormy Weather In-Reply-To: <20758.25042.865354.71381@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <CAABXsyRy5JhtzWbopLT1=w43h0eK8hx2dX2R7Gt0Cm0LV1r-pQ@mail.gmail.com> <5C71FAAC-7C7A-4F82-ACCF-BA18D3F1E92D@comcast.net> <1B047227A5B542D7BED64ECDEE8AB55A@DBBHGPM1> <4E519AFD-6D3A-445C-8414-D396A87A19EF@earthlink.net> <50212A91F49A404C93BAEA52A894CF72EAF252@wf-server.wf-domain.local> <735F870C-BCD8-4726-A599-05147020886F@earthlink.net> <20758.25042.865354.71381@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <20760.20011.641094.197664@emt.ad.brown.edu> Power's back -- bizarrely, we were lucky enough not to have lost power due to an isolated tree knocking down power lines which affect a small number of houses (and which happened in ~16 places in my tiny home town), but rather due to some sizable sub-station or some such being knocked out of commission. That affected > 2000 houses, so was a high priority for fixing, I guess. In any case, I won't get to read any TEI posts until at least tomorrow (still digging out, etc., and now have ~3 days of e-mail to deal with). > We have no power, probably for days to a week or so. Julia and Elli > are probably out of power, too. From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 11 04:43:18 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 09:43:18 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] outdated navbar and footer on tei.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <DC9A3BE1-E964-4B7C-B281-1880B1C601AD@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510D8ECB.6070602@ultraslavonic.info> <emypild5wfqv1m6ovxdg52wa.1359846360300@email.android.com> <51180568.9060908@ultraslavonic.info> <DC9A3BE1-E964-4B7C-B281-1880B1C601AD@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5118BD36.6060101@it.ox.ac.uk> On 10/02/13 21:11, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 10 Feb 2013, at 20:39, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> > wrote: > >> That sounds right to me, but I don't feel like the best person to mess >> with the build process. Sebastian, could you look into this? --Kevin >> > the web page at tei.sourceforge.net is managed separated from the > downloads which are created by the build process. to be honest, I have > no memory of how to edit it any more :-} > > it looks like its explained at https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/sourceforge/wiki/Project%20web That makes sense. But we should still change it to being an XML file that is transformed when we build Guidelines-web so that it gets the latest navbar links if we've changed those. Any suggestion where the best place to put the file in SVN is and how to include it in the build process? -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 11 04:50:00 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 09:50:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] outdated navbar and footer on tei.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <5118BD36.6060101@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510D8ECB.6070602@ultraslavonic.info> <emypild5wfqv1m6ovxdg52wa.1359846360300@email.android.com> <51180568.9060908@ultraslavonic.info> <DC9A3BE1-E964-4B7C-B281-1880B1C601AD@it.ox.ac.uk> <5118BD36.6060101@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <41f461bf-d306-4264-b672-0ca36943259f@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Feb 2013, at 09:43, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > That makes sense. But we should still change it to being an XML > file that is transformed when we build Guidelines-web so that it > gets the latest navbar links if we've changed those. Any > suggestion where the best place to put the file in SVN is and how > to include it in the build process? > i think I am not understanding this. what does the cycle of building P5 have to do with the cycle of changes to navbars and top menus? whatever those change on www.tei-c, they should change on SF too. or I am confused and are you talking about the Guidelines HTML? is some prtion of that static? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 11 06:23:07 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 11:23:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] outdated navbar and footer on tei.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <113BDB3C-047E-4C31-922F-0EE3372F512A@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510D8ECB.6070602@ultraslavonic.info> <emypild5wfqv1m6ovxdg52wa.1359846360300@email.android.com> <51180568.9060908@ultraslavonic.info> <DC9A3BE1-E964-4B7C-B281-1880B1C601AD@it.ox.ac.uk> <5118BD36.6060101@it.ox.ac.uk> <113BDB3C-047E-4C31-922F-0EE3372F512A@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5118D49B.80007@it.ox.ac.uk> On 11/02/13 09:50, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> That makes sense. But we should still change it to being an XML >> file that is transformed when we build Guidelines-web so that it >> gets the latest navbar links if we've changed those. Any >> suggestion where the best place to put the file in SVN is and how >> to include it in the build process? >> > > i think I am not understanding this. what does the cycle of building > P5 have to do with the cycle of changes to navbars and top menus? > whatever those change on www.tei-c, they should change on SF too. > > or I am confused and are you talking about the Guidelines HTML? > is some prtion of that static? The index.html file at tei.sf.net is currently manually created. I cut-and-paste the latest menu bars into it and rsync it to SF when I remember to do so, which isn't very often. I'm suggesting that since we already always need to make sure the Guidelines-web menu bars are up-to-date when they are generated then we could include auto-generation of this file into the build process and push a copy of it to SF as part of the release process. (Updating it at every release being better than just remembering to do it every so often. It means we won't forget it.) Do you have a suggestion of a better way to do this that is separate? I'm happy to implement it, just want to make sure I'm doing so in the right way and that we agree it is a good idea. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 11 07:40:17 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 12:40:17 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] outdated navbar and footer on tei.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <5118BD36.6060101@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510D8ECB.6070602@ultraslavonic.info> <emypild5wfqv1m6ovxdg52wa.1359846360300@email.android.com> <51180568.9060908@ultraslavonic.info> <DC9A3BE1-E964-4B7C-B281-1880B1C601AD@it.ox.ac.uk> <5118BD36.6060101@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <132b46c3-da05-4f15-9f7a-7f59b57a9512@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Feb 2013, at 09:43, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > That makes sense. But we should still change it to being an XML > file that is transformed when we build Guidelines-web so that it > gets the latest navbar links if we've changed those. Any > suggestion where the best place to put the file in SVN is and how > to include it in the build process? > as said to James f2f, I'd just script the creation of the file, and so avoid the problem -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 11 07:51:22 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 12:51:22 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] outdated navbar and footer on tei.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <5118D49B.80007@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510D8ECB.6070602@ultraslavonic.info> <emypild5wfqv1m6ovxdg52wa.1359846360300@email.android.com> <51180568.9060908@ultraslavonic.info> <DC9A3BE1-E964-4B7C-B281-1880B1C601AD@it.ox.ac.uk> <5118BD36.6060101@it.ox.ac.uk> <113BDB3C-047E-4C31-922F-0EE3372F512A@it.ox.ac.uk> <5118D49B.80007@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <b512a9ed-8f1f-4dc6-959e-f432b64d1f9f@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Feb 2013, at 11:23, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Do you have a suggestion of a better way to do this that is separate? a cron job at www.tei-c.org which checks to see if the front page there has changed, and if so updates tei.sf.net i think it is misleading to try and cut corners by building it into the P5 process. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Mon Feb 11 13:00:22 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 13:00:22 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] outdated navbar and footer on tei.sourceforge.net In-Reply-To: <b512a9ed-8f1f-4dc6-959e-f432b64d1f9f@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <510D8ECB.6070602@ultraslavonic.info> <emypild5wfqv1m6ovxdg52wa.1359846360300@email.android.com> <51180568.9060908@ultraslavonic.info> <DC9A3BE1-E964-4B7C-B281-1880B1C601AD@it.ox.ac.uk> <5118BD36.6060101@it.ox.ac.uk> <113BDB3C-047E-4C31-922F-0EE3372F512A@it.ox.ac.uk> <5118D49B.80007@it.ox.ac.uk> <b512a9ed-8f1f-4dc6-959e-f432b64d1f9f@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <511931B6.5070701@ultraslavonic.info> On 2/11/2013 7:51 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 11 Feb 2013, at 11:23, James Cummings<james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> Do you have a suggestion of a better way to do this that is separate? > > a cron job at www.tei-c.org which checks to see if the front page there has changed, > and if so updates tei.sf.net That's fine with me. I only suggested incorporating into the build process because we similarly incorporated into the build process a step that grabs the latest header and footer when creating the HTML guidelines and specs (since, previously, these were based on an old snapshot of what was in use at www.tei-c.org). And, as James said, it seemed like a way to make sure it happens periodically. But I like Sebastian's proposal. --K. From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Thu Feb 14 15:09:40 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 15:09:40 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting Message-ID: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I'm looking into hotels, and have the following information, also an important question: How many will be attending and needing a hotel room? I may be able to do something with a block of 10 or more. I am looking at hotels in downtown Providence, easy walking distance to Brown (uphill towards Brown, downhill back). These are also within walking distance of restaurants and pubs. I am excluding paid wifi unless the total cost is advantageous. Right now, the best I've got is $139/night. All downtown hotels offer valet parking for @$28/day. What this means is they don't have adjacent parking, and they drive your car to some lot they all use. There is also the Wyndham Garden, on the other side of Brown. It is also within walking distance of Brown, but through a mediocre neighborhood and not a great walk home at night. It's sort of near a street of restaurants, but again, the walk isn't great - probably fine for a group. It's right on a highway ramp, and has free parking. The rooms on hotels.com are under $100, also has free wireless. They do offer a shuttle (for a small charge, they say). Optimized for people with cars (Paul!). I may be able to get some better prices downtown, but right now, the Wyndham has the others beat, at least on hotels.com. Syd and I will have cars, and I am housing Gabby and Hugh. --elli From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Feb 14 15:11:46 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 15:11:46 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <511D4502.7020004@uvic.ca> I'm planning on coming. Cheers, Martin On 13-02-14 03:09 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > Hi all, I'm looking into hotels, and have the following information, also > an important question: > > How many will be attending and needing a hotel room? I may be able to do > something with a block of 10 or more. > > I am looking at hotels in downtown Providence, easy walking distance to > Brown (uphill towards Brown, downhill back). These are also within walking > distance of restaurants and pubs. I am excluding paid wifi unless the total > cost is advantageous. Right now, the best I've got is $139/night. All > downtown hotels offer valet parking for @$28/day. What this means is they > don't have adjacent parking, and they drive your car to some lot they all > use. > > There is also the Wyndham Garden, on the other side of Brown. It is also > within walking distance of Brown, but through a mediocre neighborhood and > not a great walk home at night. It's sort of near a street of restaurants, > but again, the walk isn't great - probably fine for a group. It's right on > a highway ramp, and has free parking. The rooms on hotels.com are under > $100, also has free wireless. They do offer a shuttle (for a small charge, > they say). Optimized for people with cars (Paul!). > > I may be able to get some better prices downtown, but right now, the > Wyndham has the others beat, at least on hotels.com. > > Syd and I will have cars, and I am housing Gabby and Hugh. --elli > -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Feb 14 16:57:02 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:57:02 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <511D5DAE.4060405@ultraslavonic.info> I have booked my flight to arrive Wednesday and leave Saturday. Will need a room but can do without free wifi since I can do tethering on my cellphone. --Kevin On 2/14/2013 3:09 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > Hi all, I'm looking into hotels, and have the following information, also > an important question: > > How many will be attending and needing a hotel room? I may be able to do > something with a block of 10 or more. > > I am looking at hotels in downtown Providence, easy walking distance to > Brown (uphill towards Brown, downhill back). These are also within walking > distance of restaurants and pubs. I am excluding paid wifi unless the total > cost is advantageous. Right now, the best I've got is $139/night. All > downtown hotels offer valet parking for @$28/day. What this means is they > don't have adjacent parking, and they drive your car to some lot they all > use. > > There is also the Wyndham Garden, on the other side of Brown. It is also > within walking distance of Brown, but through a mediocre neighborhood and > not a great walk home at night. It's sort of near a street of restaurants, > but again, the walk isn't great - probably fine for a group. It's right on > a highway ramp, and has free parking. The rooms on hotels.com are under > $100, also has free wireless. They do offer a shuttle (for a small charge, > they say). Optimized for people with cars (Paul!). > > I may be able to get some better prices downtown, but right now, the > Wyndham has the others beat, at least on hotels.com. > > Syd and I will have cars, and I am housing Gabby and Hugh. --elli From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Thu Feb 14 21:07:23 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 21:07:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <511D5DAE.4060405@ultraslavonic.info> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> <511D5DAE.4060405@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1302142103090.16827@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> I've given up on car and train -- just TOO long, and booked a flight into PVD arriving Tuesday 9 April and departing Monday 15 April. That will give me Wednesday free for a lightning visit with family and leave Sunday free for a possible drive (rental) up to SE Vermont and back. I also booked a room for the duration at Annie Brownell House B&B on Waterman Square for ~ $100/night. Right across from Myopic Books, I believe, which I intend to revisit because its owner is a fellow-collector of old hymn books and has been known to put some of his own collection up for sale. Now you know it all! pfs On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > I have booked my flight to arrive Wednesday and leave Saturday. Will > need a room but can do without free wifi since I can do tethering on my > cellphone. --Kevin > > On 2/14/2013 3:09 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >> Hi all, I'm looking into hotels, and have the following information, also >> an important question: >> >> How many will be attending and needing a hotel room? I may be able to do >> something with a block of 10 or more. >> >> I am looking at hotels in downtown Providence, easy walking distance to >> Brown (uphill towards Brown, downhill back). These are also within walking >> distance of restaurants and pubs. I am excluding paid wifi unless the total >> cost is advantageous. Right now, the best I've got is $139/night. All >> downtown hotels offer valet parking for @$28/day. What this means is they >> don't have adjacent parking, and they drive your car to some lot they all >> use. >> >> There is also the Wyndham Garden, on the other side of Brown. It is also >> within walking distance of Brown, but through a mediocre neighborhood and >> not a great walk home at night. It's sort of near a street of restaurants, >> but again, the walk isn't great - probably fine for a group. It's right on >> a highway ramp, and has free parking. The rooms on hotels.com are under >> $100, also has free wireless. They do offer a shuttle (for a small charge, >> they say). Optimized for people with cars (Paul!). >> >> I may be able to get some better prices downtown, but right now, the >> Wyndham has the others beat, at least on hotels.com. >> >> Syd and I will have cars, and I am housing Gabby and Hugh. --elli > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Thu Feb 14 21:23:49 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 21:23:49 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1302142103090.16827@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> <511D5DAE.4060405@ultraslavonic.info> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1302142103090.16827@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpd0TVbf9ztNrMoKTsJbErhxALO+qu+OcKsG6DkK7XXfYw@mail.gmail.com> Annie Brownell is a very nice B&B, It's about 4 blocks from Myopic (they were forced to change their name by some trademark threat, but still the same place in Wayland Sq) and also an easy walk to Brown. I'd suggest it for others, but it doesn't have enough rooms for everyone and I'm not sure about the wifi, --elli On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 9:07 PM, Paul F. Schaffner <PFSchaffner at umich.edu>wrote: > > I've given up on car and train -- just TOO long, and booked > a flight into PVD arriving Tuesday 9 April and departing > Monday 15 April. That will give me Wednesday free for a lightning > visit with family and leave Sunday free for a possible drive > (rental) up to SE Vermont and back. > > I also booked a room for the duration at Annie Brownell House B&B > on Waterman Square for ~ $100/night. Right across from Myopic Books, > I believe, which I intend to revisit because its owner is a > fellow-collector of old hymn books and has been known to put > some of his own collection up for sale. > > Now you know it all! > > pfs > > > On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > > > I have booked my flight to arrive Wednesday and leave Saturday. Will > > need a room but can do without free wifi since I can do tethering on my > > cellphone. --Kevin > > > > On 2/14/2013 3:09 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > >> Hi all, I'm looking into hotels, and have the following information, > also > >> an important question: > >> > >> How many will be attending and needing a hotel room? I may be able to > do > >> something with a block of 10 or more. > >> > >> I am looking at hotels in downtown Providence, easy walking distance to > >> Brown (uphill towards Brown, downhill back). These are also within > walking > >> distance of restaurants and pubs. I am excluding paid wifi unless the > total > >> cost is advantageous. Right now, the best I've got is $139/night. All > >> downtown hotels offer valet parking for @$28/day. What this means is > they > >> don't have adjacent parking, and they drive your car to some lot they > all > >> use. > >> > >> There is also the Wyndham Garden, on the other side of Brown. It is also > >> within walking distance of Brown, but through a mediocre neighborhood > and > >> not a great walk home at night. It's sort of near a street of > restaurants, > >> but again, the walk isn't great - probably fine for a group. It's right > on > >> a highway ramp, and has free parking. The rooms on hotels.com are under > >> $100, also has free wireless. They do offer a shuttle (for a small > charge, > >> they say). Optimized for people with cars (Paul!). > >> > >> I may be able to get some better prices downtown, but right now, the > >> Wyndham has the others beat, at least on hotels.com. > >> > >> Syd and I will have cars, and I am housing Gabby and Hugh. --elli > > -- > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ > 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 15 07:01:01 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 12:01:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <511E237D.6000807@it.ox.ac.uk> If I'm counting correctly and you are housing Gabby and Hugh, and Syd is also local then those needing hotels are: JamesC, BrettB, KevinH, MartinH, PaulS, RebeccaW, SebastianR, and LouB which totals 8 people. Personally, I'm not too bothered about which hotel but would certainly prefer to be where everyone else is. ;-) I've not booked my flight yet but was intending to come in on the Tuesday if you need me to speak or the Wednesday otherwise. -James On 14/02/13 20:09, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > Hi all, I'm looking into hotels, and have the following information, also > an important question: > > How many will be attending and needing a hotel room? I may be able to do > something with a block of 10 or more. > > I am looking at hotels in downtown Providence, easy walking distance to > Brown (uphill towards Brown, downhill back). These are also within walking > distance of restaurants and pubs. I am excluding paid wifi unless the total > cost is advantageous. Right now, the best I've got is $139/night. All > downtown hotels offer valet parking for @$28/day. What this means is they > don't have adjacent parking, and they drive your car to some lot they all > use. > > There is also the Wyndham Garden, on the other side of Brown. It is also > within walking distance of Brown, but through a mediocre neighborhood and > not a great walk home at night. It's sort of near a street of restaurants, > but again, the walk isn't great - probably fine for a group. It's right on > a highway ramp, and has free parking. The rooms on hotels.com are under > $100, also has free wireless. They do offer a shuttle (for a small charge, > they say). Optimized for people with cars (Paul!). > > I may be able to get some better prices downtown, but right now, the > Wyndham has the others beat, at least on hotels.com. > > Syd and I will have cars, and I am housing Gabby and Hugh. --elli > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Fri Feb 15 09:36:35 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 09:36:35 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <511E237D.6000807@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> <511E237D.6000807@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpduCD3wxXie=ApLNshF-a0e337DrWYYQ7ngsFKmMZQ5Dg@mail.gmail.com> OK, so since Paul is all set with his B&B, that's 7 people/rooms. I'll harass the hotels once again today to get last set of prices -elli On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 7:01 AM, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk>wrote: > > If I'm counting correctly and you are housing Gabby and Hugh, and > Syd is also local then those needing hotels are: > > JamesC, BrettB, KevinH, MartinH, PaulS, RebeccaW, SebastianR, and > LouB > > which totals 8 people. > > Personally, I'm not too bothered about which hotel but would > certainly prefer to be where everyone else is. ;-) > > I've not booked my flight yet but was intending to come in on the > Tuesday if you need me to speak or the Wednesday otherwise. > > -James > > > > On 14/02/13 20:09, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > > Hi all, I'm looking into hotels, and have the following information, also > > an important question: > > > > How many will be attending and needing a hotel room? I may be able to do > > something with a block of 10 or more. > > > > I am looking at hotels in downtown Providence, easy walking distance to > > Brown (uphill towards Brown, downhill back). These are also within > walking > > distance of restaurants and pubs. I am excluding paid wifi unless the > total > > cost is advantageous. Right now, the best I've got is $139/night. All > > downtown hotels offer valet parking for @$28/day. What this means is they > > don't have adjacent parking, and they drive your car to some lot they all > > use. > > > > There is also the Wyndham Garden, on the other side of Brown. It is also > > within walking distance of Brown, but through a mediocre neighborhood and > > not a great walk home at night. It's sort of near a street of > restaurants, > > but again, the walk isn't great - probably fine for a group. It's right > on > > a highway ramp, and has free parking. The rooms on hotels.com are under > > $100, also has free wireless. They do offer a shuttle (for a small > charge, > > they say). Optimized for people with cars (Paul!). > > > > I may be able to get some better prices downtown, but right now, the > > Wyndham has the others beat, at least on hotels.com. > > > > Syd and I will have cars, and I am housing Gabby and Hugh. --elli > > > > > -- > Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Tue Feb 19 10:37:12 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:37:12 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpduCD3wxXie=ApLNshF-a0e337DrWYYQ7ngsFKmMZQ5Dg@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> <511E237D.6000807@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpduCD3wxXie=ApLNshF-a0e337DrWYYQ7ngsFKmMZQ5Dg@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpfaf0fkt78tV52xRBPNeTFUPfs1r1fSGUV1M4JC6cD3GA@mail.gmail.com> OK, the winner of the hotel competition is the Providence Biltmore ( http://www.providencebiltmore.com). It is within walking distance of Brown, the train station, the bus station (city and airport busses), has free wireless and is in the middle of downtown Providence, so near restaurants, pubs, etc. They've quoted me a $95/night price - just say you are attending a meeting at Brown University. There is no special number, nor do they seem to want to police the rate. If they want more information, then you can say the meeting is at the Library, and give me name/email as contact. If there is a way to pay for rooms such that reimbursement is easier, perhaps John Unsworth can weigh in. There is no special room block in place. --elli On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Mylonas, Elli <elli_mylonas at brown.edu>wrote: > OK, so since Paul is all set with his B&B, that's 7 people/rooms. I'll > harass the hotels once again today to get last set of prices -elli > > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 7:01 AM, James Cummings < > James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> >> If I'm counting correctly and you are housing Gabby and Hugh, and >> Syd is also local then those needing hotels are: >> >> JamesC, BrettB, KevinH, MartinH, PaulS, RebeccaW, SebastianR, and >> LouB >> >> which totals 8 people. >> >> Personally, I'm not too bothered about which hotel but would >> certainly prefer to be where everyone else is. ;-) >> >> I've not booked my flight yet but was intending to come in on the >> Tuesday if you need me to speak or the Wednesday otherwise. >> >> -James >> >> >> >> On 14/02/13 20:09, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >> > Hi all, I'm looking into hotels, and have the following information, >> also >> > an important question: >> > >> > How many will be attending and needing a hotel room? I may be able to >> do >> > something with a block of 10 or more. >> > >> > I am looking at hotels in downtown Providence, easy walking distance to >> > Brown (uphill towards Brown, downhill back). These are also within >> walking >> > distance of restaurants and pubs. I am excluding paid wifi unless the >> total >> > cost is advantageous. Right now, the best I've got is $139/night. All >> > downtown hotels offer valet parking for @$28/day. What this means is >> they >> > don't have adjacent parking, and they drive your car to some lot they >> all >> > use. >> > >> > There is also the Wyndham Garden, on the other side of Brown. It is also >> > within walking distance of Brown, but through a mediocre neighborhood >> and >> > not a great walk home at night. It's sort of near a street of >> restaurants, >> > but again, the walk isn't great - probably fine for a group. It's right >> on >> > a highway ramp, and has free parking. The rooms on hotels.com are under >> > $100, also has free wireless. They do offer a shuttle (for a small >> charge, >> > they say). Optimized for people with cars (Paul!). >> > >> > I may be able to get some better prices downtown, but right now, the >> > Wyndham has the others beat, at least on hotels.com. >> > >> > Syd and I will have cars, and I am housing Gabby and Hugh. --elli >> > >> >> >> -- >> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> > > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 19 10:41:40 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 15:41:40 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpfaf0fkt78tV52xRBPNeTFUPfs1r1fSGUV1M4JC6cD3GA@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> <511E237D.6000807@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpduCD3wxXie=ApLNshF-a0e337DrWYYQ7ngsFKmMZQ5Dg@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpfaf0fkt78tV52xRBPNeTFUPfs1r1fSGUV1M4JC6cD3GA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <093F6CFE-536C-47F0-9112-8103EC1E2654@it.ox.ac.uk> so the missing info is who, if any, you want to be available on Wednesday to sing and dance. that dictates flight and hotel booking. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Tue Feb 19 10:45:15 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:45:15 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <093F6CFE-536C-47F0-9112-8103EC1E2654@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> <511E237D.6000807@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpduCD3wxXie=ApLNshF-a0e337DrWYYQ7ngsFKmMZQ5Dg@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpfaf0fkt78tV52xRBPNeTFUPfs1r1fSGUV1M4JC6cD3GA@mail.gmail.com> <093F6CFE-536C-47F0-9112-8103EC1E2654@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpdZvDEU6+BSsM_Tit3j1mENUz=iL9r94iUuXBKqpHEUoQ@mail.gmail.com> yes, I'm working on that, if a few more days won't mess up prices, I'll shoot for the end of the week. --elli On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Sebastian Rahtz < sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > so the missing info is who, if any, you want to be available on Wednesday > to sing and dance. that dictates flight and hotel booking. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Feb 19 11:28:26 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 08:28:26 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpfaf0fkt78tV52xRBPNeTFUPfs1r1fSGUV1M4JC6cD3GA@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> <511E237D.6000807@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpduCD3wxXie=ApLNshF-a0e337DrWYYQ7ngsFKmMZQ5Dg@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpfaf0fkt78tV52xRBPNeTFUPfs1r1fSGUV1M4JC6cD3GA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5123A82A.2070705@uvic.ca> I couldn't get the $95 rate booking online, so I've emailed them to see how to go about it. I'll let everyone know what I hear back. Cheers, Martin On 13-02-19 07:37 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > OK, the winner of the hotel competition is the Providence Biltmore ( > http://www.providencebiltmore.com). It is within walking distance of Brown, > the train station, the bus station (city and airport busses), has free > wireless and is in the middle of downtown Providence, so near restaurants, > pubs, etc. > > They've quoted me a $95/night price - just say you are attending a meeting > at Brown University. There is no special number, nor do they seem to want > to police the rate. If they want more information, then you can say the > meeting is at the Library, and give me name/email as contact. > > If there is a way to pay for rooms such that reimbursement is easier, > perhaps John Unsworth can weigh in. There is no special room block in > place. > > --elli > > > On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Mylonas, Elli <elli_mylonas at brown.edu>wrote: > >> OK, so since Paul is all set with his B&B, that's 7 people/rooms. I'll >> harass the hotels once again today to get last set of prices -elli >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 7:01 AM, James Cummings < >> James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> >>> If I'm counting correctly and you are housing Gabby and Hugh, and >>> Syd is also local then those needing hotels are: >>> >>> JamesC, BrettB, KevinH, MartinH, PaulS, RebeccaW, SebastianR, and >>> LouB >>> >>> which totals 8 people. >>> >>> Personally, I'm not too bothered about which hotel but would >>> certainly prefer to be where everyone else is. ;-) >>> >>> I've not booked my flight yet but was intending to come in on the >>> Tuesday if you need me to speak or the Wednesday otherwise. >>> >>> -James >>> >>> >>> >>> On 14/02/13 20:09, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >>>> Hi all, I'm looking into hotels, and have the following information, >>> also >>>> an important question: >>>> >>>> How many will be attending and needing a hotel room? I may be able to >>> do >>>> something with a block of 10 or more. >>>> >>>> I am looking at hotels in downtown Providence, easy walking distance to >>>> Brown (uphill towards Brown, downhill back). These are also within >>> walking >>>> distance of restaurants and pubs. I am excluding paid wifi unless the >>> total >>>> cost is advantageous. Right now, the best I've got is $139/night. All >>>> downtown hotels offer valet parking for @$28/day. What this means is >>> they >>>> don't have adjacent parking, and they drive your car to some lot they >>> all >>>> use. >>>> >>>> There is also the Wyndham Garden, on the other side of Brown. It is also >>>> within walking distance of Brown, but through a mediocre neighborhood >>> and >>>> not a great walk home at night. It's sort of near a street of >>> restaurants, >>>> but again, the walk isn't great - probably fine for a group. It's right >>> on >>>> a highway ramp, and has free parking. The rooms on hotels.com are under >>>> $100, also has free wireless. They do offer a shuttle (for a small >>> charge, >>>> they say). Optimized for people with cars (Paul!). >>>> >>>> I may be able to get some better prices downtown, but right now, the >>>> Wyndham has the others beat, at least on hotels.com. >>>> >>>> Syd and I will have cars, and I am housing Gabby and Hugh. --elli >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >>> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >>> -- >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >>> >> >> -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 19 11:56:06 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 16:56:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpdZvDEU6+BSsM_Tit3j1mENUz=iL9r94iUuXBKqpHEUoQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> <511E237D.6000807@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpduCD3wxXie=ApLNshF-a0e337DrWYYQ7ngsFKmMZQ5Dg@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpfaf0fkt78tV52xRBPNeTFUPfs1r1fSGUV1M4JC6cD3GA@mail.gmail.com> <093F6CFE-536C-47F0-9112-8103EC1E2654@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpdZvDEU6+BSsM_Tit3j1mENUz=iL9r94iUuXBKqpHEUoQ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5123AEA6.3020400@it.ox.ac.uk> On 19/02/13 15:45, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > yes, I'm working on that, if a few more days won't mess up prices, I'll > shoot for the end of the week. I'll hold off until then to book my flight. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Feb 19 12:45:03 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:45:03 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Brown Rate for hotel In-Reply-To: <A85DC14C8172414CB62260CDDB6A55AC11DDF324@mbx030-w1-co-1.exch030.domain.local> References: <A85DC14C8172414CB62260CDDB6A55AC11DDF324@mbx030-w1-co-1.exch030.domain.local> Message-ID: <5123BA1F.2060408@uvic.ca> This is what I got back from the hotel: Good Afternoon, We do have a Brown rate at $95 which is available for the dates that you are requesting. If you would like to book directly with us you can call me at 401.455.3022, or you could go to our website at providencebiltmore.com. From our main page you would click on reservation/book now, enter your dates and under corporate/promotion code you would enter BROWN. From there you will be able to book your reservation. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at the number below. Thank you! -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Brown Rate Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:16:45 -0800 From: Reservations <reservations at providencebiltmore.com> To: Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Tue Feb 19 12:55:13 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 12:55:13 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Brown Rate for hotel In-Reply-To: <5123BA1F.2060408@uvic.ca> References: <A85DC14C8172414CB62260CDDB6A55AC11DDF324@mbx030-w1-co-1.exch030.domain.local> <5123BA1F.2060408@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpfuSJUWuqv5HXfBmZrByynh-hktCxncgAoAdDm=cE9hOw@mail.gmail.com> I'll give them a call again. --elli On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > This is what I got back from the hotel: > > Good Afternoon, > > We do have a Brown rate at $95 which is available for the dates that you > are requesting. If you would like to book directly with us you can call > me at 401.455.3022, or you could go to our website at > providencebiltmore.com. From our main page you would click on > reservation/book now, enter your dates and under corporate/promotion > code you would enter BROWN. From there you will be able to book your > reservation. > > If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at the number > below. > > > > Thank you! > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Brown Rate > Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:16:45 -0800 > From: Reservations <reservations at providencebiltmore.com> > To: Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > > > > > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 19 13:19:05 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 18:19:05 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpfaf0fkt78tV52xRBPNeTFUPfs1r1fSGUV1M4JC6cD3GA@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> <511E237D.6000807@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpduCD3wxXie=ApLNshF-a0e337DrWYYQ7ngsFKmMZQ5Dg@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpfaf0fkt78tV52xRBPNeTFUPfs1r1fSGUV1M4JC6cD3GA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5123C219.1090208@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 19/02/13 15:37, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > OK, the winner of the hotel competition is the Providence Biltmore ( > http://www.providencebiltmore.com). It is within walking distance of Brown, > the train station, the bus station (city and airport busses), has free > wireless and is in the middle of downtown Providence, so near restaurants, > pubs, etc. Hoorah! I have fond memories of staying at the Biltmore in a previous lifetime, probably for some SGML conference (SGML-92 maybe?) Has anyone yet asked the usual question about whether we are aiming to finish in time for an early evening flight on Saturday? And if so, what was the answer? Re arrival time, if there is some kind of "welcome TEI" event planned for Wednesday, I'd be delighted to attend/participate (jet lag permitting) but I need to know SOON. From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Tue Feb 19 13:56:21 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 13:56:21 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Brown Rate for hotel In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpfuSJUWuqv5HXfBmZrByynh-hktCxncgAoAdDm=cE9hOw@mail.gmail.com> References: <A85DC14C8172414CB62260CDDB6A55AC11DDF324@mbx030-w1-co-1.exch030.domain.local> <5123BA1F.2060408@uvic.ca> <CAMuBKpfuSJUWuqv5HXfBmZrByynh-hktCxncgAoAdDm=cE9hOw@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpfwfoqwx2xD_DV+JVCN8BOxJ9hgfvDueJV5DBQPBQjvYA@mail.gmail.com> I just spoke with someone at the Biltmore who explained the following - Go online to the hotel website Click Reservations, Book Now select your dates Type "Brown" into the corporate rate box it should bring up a $95 rate with free wifi I was able to get those results when I just tried it. --elli On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:55 PM, Mylonas, Elli <elli_mylonas at brown.edu>wrote: > I'll give them a call again. --elli > > > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > >> This is what I got back from the hotel: >> >> Good Afternoon, >> >> We do have a Brown rate at $95 which is available for the dates that you >> are requesting. If you would like to book directly with us you can call >> me at 401.455.3022, or you could go to our website at >> providencebiltmore.com. From our main page you would click on >> reservation/book now, enter your dates and under corporate/promotion >> code you would enter BROWN. From there you will be able to book your >> reservation. >> >> If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at the number >> below. >> >> >> >> Thank you! >> >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Brown Rate >> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:16:45 -0800 >> From: Reservations <reservations at providencebiltmore.com> >> To: Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> > > From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 19 13:58:55 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 18:58:55 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <5123C219.1090208@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> <511E237D.6000807@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpduCD3wxXie=ApLNshF-a0e337DrWYYQ7ngsFKmMZQ5Dg@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpfaf0fkt78tV52xRBPNeTFUPfs1r1fSGUV1M4JC6cD3GA@mail.gmail.com> <5123C219.1090208@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5123CB6F.8090503@it.ox.ac.uk> On 19/02/13 18:19, Lou Burnard wrote: > Has anyone yet asked the usual question about whether we are aiming to > finish in time for an early evening flight on Saturday? And if so, what > was the answer? Agenda hasn't been set yet there is a page at http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2013-04 (linked to from http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council ) for us to start putting in the things we must discuss. However, as with Ann Arbor and Oxford I'd assume that the meeting ends after lunch on the third day (Saturday), if we've got through all our tickets and important issues. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 09:52:39 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 09:52:39 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <5123CB6F.8090503@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> <511E237D.6000807@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpduCD3wxXie=ApLNshF-a0e337DrWYYQ7ngsFKmMZQ5Dg@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpfaf0fkt78tV52xRBPNeTFUPfs1r1fSGUV1M4JC6cD3GA@mail.gmail.com> <5123C219.1090208@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5123CB6F.8090503@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <CAA2irtJoR-B6fVr4BLRVR6DZNLXQmnfz0kFLuqVmipP83+HY_w@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for this info, and for your work in setting this up, Elli. Looking forward to seeing everyone soon. On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 1:58 PM, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > On 19/02/13 18:19, Lou Burnard wrote: >> Has anyone yet asked the usual question about whether we are aiming to >> finish in time for an early evening flight on Saturday? And if so, what >> was the answer? > > Agenda hasn't been set yet there is a page at > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2013-04 > (linked to from http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council ) > for us to start putting in the things we must discuss. > > However, as with Ann Arbor and Oxford I'd assume that the meeting > ends after lunch on the third day (Saturday), if we've got > through all our tickets and important issues. > > -James > > > -- > Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Thu Feb 21 08:02:39 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 08:02:39 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <CAA2irtJoR-B6fVr4BLRVR6DZNLXQmnfz0kFLuqVmipP83+HY_w@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> <511E237D.6000807@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpduCD3wxXie=ApLNshF-a0e337DrWYYQ7ngsFKmMZQ5Dg@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpfaf0fkt78tV52xRBPNeTFUPfs1r1fSGUV1M4JC6cD3GA@mail.gmail.com> <5123C219.1090208@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5123CB6F.8090503@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAA2irtJoR-B6fVr4BLRVR6DZNLXQmnfz0kFLuqVmipP83+HY_w@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpfzrsYhQO7Ykjm4_epFwsXNhK0OsVZUG_uRKV+tQBizOQ@mail.gmail.com> Latest: Booking flights: Most important - I polled various constituencies, and there is a lot going on in April here at Brown -and I'm not sure that I can get a fairly technical group that is large enough to make it worth anyone's while. So book your flights for a Thursday meeting time. Anyone who's here on Wednesday -I think it was Martin? can tour Providence or be roped into a much smaller and more informal gathering with the XMLiterati. Paying for the Biltmore: John Unsworth suggested that the TEI pay for the rooms all at once (room charges and tax, not incidentals), to make things easier for reimbursements. I will call them today to find out exactly how that's done. This affects the non-Americans primarily, who would have to deal with exchange rates and credit card fees. So, anyone for whom it's easier to have John pay, please send me your name, and arrival/departure dates. Perhaps also a contact phone number. thank you! --elli On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Rebecca Welzenbach <rwelzenbach at gmail.com>wrote: > Thanks for this info, and for your work in setting this up, Elli. > Looking forward to seeing everyone soon. > > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 1:58 PM, James Cummings > <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > On 19/02/13 18:19, Lou Burnard wrote: > >> Has anyone yet asked the usual question about whether we are aiming to > >> finish in time for an early evening flight on Saturday? And if so, what > >> was the answer? > > > > Agenda hasn't been set yet there is a page at > > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2013-04 > > (linked to from http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council ) > > for us to start putting in the things we must discuss. > > > > However, as with Ann Arbor and Oxford I'd assume that the meeting > > ends after lunch on the third day (Saturday), if we've got > > through all our tickets and important issues. > > > > -James > > > > > > -- > > Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > > Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > > -- > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Feb 21 08:46:05 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 05:46:05 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] hotels for April meeting In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpfzrsYhQO7Ykjm4_epFwsXNhK0OsVZUG_uRKV+tQBizOQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpeFjC=EYJQypVdVd6D-=6bJnCn5=XY9jD7TB--p_8PwUQ@mail.gmail.com> <511E237D.6000807@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpduCD3wxXie=ApLNshF-a0e337DrWYYQ7ngsFKmMZQ5Dg@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpfaf0fkt78tV52xRBPNeTFUPfs1r1fSGUV1M4JC6cD3GA@mail.gmail.com> <5123C219.1090208@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5123CB6F.8090503@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAA2irtJoR-B6fVr4BLRVR6DZNLXQmnfz0kFLuqVmipP83+HY_w@mail.gmail.com> <CAMuBKpfzrsYhQO7Ykjm4_epFwsXNhK0OsVZUG_uRKV+tQBizOQ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5126251D.5030504@uvic.ca> On 13-02-21 05:02 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > Latest: > > Booking flights: > Most important - I polled various constituencies, and there is a lot going > on in April here at Brown -and I'm not sure that I can get a fairly > technical group that is large enough to make it worth anyone's while. So > book your flights for a Thursday meeting time. Anyone who's here on > Wednesday -I think it was Martin? can tour Providence or be roped into a > much smaller and more informal gathering with the XMLiterati. I will be here on Wednesday -- I'm getting to Logan about 11am, I think. I'm happy to talk about my CodeSharing idea if there's anyone interested. > Paying for the Biltmore: > John Unsworth suggested that the TEI pay for the rooms all at once (room > charges and tax, not incidentals), to make things easier for > reimbursements. I will call them today to find out exactly how that's done. > This affects the non-Americans primarily, who would have to deal with > exchange rates and credit card fees. So, anyone for whom it's easier to > have John pay, please send me your name, and arrival/departure dates. > Perhaps also a contact phone number. I'll forward my booking confirmation to you. Cheers, Martin > thank you! --elli > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Rebecca Welzenbach > <rwelzenbach at gmail.com>wrote: > >> Thanks for this info, and for your work in setting this up, Elli. >> Looking forward to seeing everyone soon. >> >> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 1:58 PM, James Cummings >> <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>> On 19/02/13 18:19, Lou Burnard wrote: >>>> Has anyone yet asked the usual question about whether we are aiming to >>>> finish in time for an early evening flight on Saturday? And if so, what >>>> was the answer? >>> >>> Agenda hasn't been set yet there is a page at >>> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2013-04 >>> (linked to from http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council ) >>> for us to start putting in the things we must discuss. >>> >>> However, as with Ann Arbor and Oxford I'd assume that the meeting >>> ends after lunch on the third day (Saturday), if we've got >>> through all our tickets and important issues. >>> >>> -James >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >>> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >>> -- >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Feb 22 12:48:18 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:48:18 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SVG logo is broken Message-ID: <5127AF62.60302@uvic.ca> Hi there, I wanted to use the SVG TEI logo here: <http://www.tei-c.org/About/Logos/> in a presentation, but Inkscape refuses to open it. When I look at it in Oxygen, it appears to be full of horrible Adobe-specific extensions. Does anyone have the original .ai file it came from? It would be nice to create a clean compliant SVG version of the logo. I think it's possible to generate proper SVG from .ai files one way or another. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Feb 22 12:50:50 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:50:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] TEI SVG logo is broken In-Reply-To: <5127AF62.60302@uvic.ca> References: <5127AF62.60302@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1302221248510.17968@lister.ei.virginia.edu> That file predates the move of the website from Oxford to Virginia, I believe (at any rate it has been there since 2007)--someone else may know who generated the originals. On Fri, 22 Feb 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: > Hi there, > > I wanted to use the SVG TEI logo here: > > <http://www.tei-c.org/About/Logos/> > > in a presentation, but Inkscape refuses to open it. When I look at it in > Oxygen, it appears to be full of horrible Adobe-specific extensions. > Does anyone have the original .ai file it came from? It would be nice to > create a clean compliant SVG version of the logo. I think it's possible > to generate proper SVG from .ai files one way or another. > > Cheers, > Martin > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400314, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4314 USA Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Feb 22 12:55:43 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:55:43 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SVG logo is broken In-Reply-To: <5127AF62.60302@uvic.ca> References: <5127AF62.60302@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5127B11F.2070508@uvic.ca> I managed to do a conversion, but the result is an SVG file that consists of base64 data for a PNG bitmap. Not really SVG at all. Presumably the original logo was done as a vector, so if we can find the .ai file, we should be able to generate a proper SVG version. Cheers, Martin On 13-02-22 09:48 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > Hi there, > > I wanted to use the SVG TEI logo here: > > <http://www.tei-c.org/About/Logos/> > > in a presentation, but Inkscape refuses to open it. When I look at it in > Oxygen, it appears to be full of horrible Adobe-specific extensions. > Does anyone have the original .ai file it came from? It would be nice to > create a clean compliant SVG version of the logo. I think it's possible > to generate proper SVG from .ai files one way or another. > > Cheers, > Martin > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 22 13:06:57 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 18:06:57 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SVG logo is broken In-Reply-To: <5127B11F.2070508@uvic.ca> References: <5127AF62.60302@uvic.ca> <5127B11F.2070508@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5127B3C1.3010809@retired.ox.ac.uk> "Julia Flanders thanked Geoffrey Rockwell and Sebastian Rahtz, who took the lead in the design process, and also thanked the logo's designers: Andrew Paulin of McMaster University, who undertook the initial design and produced a number of prototypes from which a few were selected for further development; and Rowan Wilson of Oxford University, who took Andrew's prototype and developed it into a finished logo. The membership instructed the Chair to thank both Andrew and Rowan for their work." It was probably on a desktop somewhere in Oxford ... once. On 22/02/13 17:55, Martin Holmes wrote: > I managed to do a conversion, but the result is an SVG file that > consists of base64 data for a PNG bitmap. Not really SVG at all. > Presumably the original logo was done as a vector, so if we can find the > .ai file, we should be able to generate a proper SVG version. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-02-22 09:48 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> I wanted to use the SVG TEI logo here: >> >> <http://www.tei-c.org/About/Logos/> >> >> in a presentation, but Inkscape refuses to open it. When I look at it in >> Oxygen, it appears to be full of horrible Adobe-specific extensions. >> Does anyone have the original .ai file it came from? It would be nice to >> create a clean compliant SVG version of the logo. I think it's possible >> to generate proper SVG from .ai files one way or another. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> > From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Feb 22 13:19:15 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:19:15 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SVG logo is broken In-Reply-To: <5127B3C1.3010809@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5127AF62.60302@uvic.ca> <5127B11F.2070508@uvic.ca> <5127B3C1.3010809@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5127B6A3.8080808@uvic.ca> I've found that I can generate a true SVG version using Inkscape based on the PDF version of the file. I've added the result to SVN: /trunk/Documents/oddmanual/TEILogo.svg I'd suggest that we provide this version instead of the bitmap monstrosity that's currently there. Cheers, Martin On 13-02-22 10:06 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > "Julia Flanders thanked Geoffrey Rockwell and Sebastian Rahtz, who took > the lead in the design process, and also thanked the logo's designers: > Andrew Paulin of McMaster University, who undertook the initial design > and produced a number of prototypes from which a few were selected for > further development; and Rowan Wilson of Oxford University, who took > Andrew's prototype and developed it into a finished logo. The membership > instructed the Chair to thank both Andrew and Rowan for their work." > > It was probably on a desktop somewhere in Oxford ... once. > > > On 22/02/13 17:55, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I managed to do a conversion, but the result is an SVG file that >> consists of base64 data for a PNG bitmap. Not really SVG at all. >> Presumably the original logo was done as a vector, so if we can find the >> .ai file, we should be able to generate a proper SVG version. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-02-22 09:48 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> Hi there, >>> >>> I wanted to use the SVG TEI logo here: >>> >>> <http://www.tei-c.org/About/Logos/> >>> >>> in a presentation, but Inkscape refuses to open it. When I look at it in >>> Oxygen, it appears to be full of horrible Adobe-specific extensions. >>> Does anyone have the original .ai file it came from? It would be nice to >>> create a clean compliant SVG version of the logo. I think it's possible >>> to generate proper SVG from .ai files one way or another. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >> > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 22 13:22:33 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 18:22:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SVG logo is broken In-Reply-To: <5127B3C1.3010809@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5127AF62.60302@uvic.ca> <5127B11F.2070508@uvic.ca> <5127B3C1.3010809@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5127B769.7010007@it.ox.ac.uk> I've asked Rowan if he has the original files around. -James On 22/02/13 18:06, Lou Burnard wrote: > "Julia Flanders thanked Geoffrey Rockwell and Sebastian Rahtz, who took > the lead in the design process, and also thanked the logo's designers: > Andrew Paulin of McMaster University, who undertook the initial design > and produced a number of prototypes from which a few were selected for > further development; and Rowan Wilson of Oxford University, who took > Andrew's prototype and developed it into a finished logo. The membership > instructed the Chair to thank both Andrew and Rowan for their work." > > It was probably on a desktop somewhere in Oxford ... once. > > > On 22/02/13 17:55, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I managed to do a conversion, but the result is an SVG file that >> consists of base64 data for a PNG bitmap. Not really SVG at all. >> Presumably the original logo was done as a vector, so if we can find the >> .ai file, we should be able to generate a proper SVG version. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-02-22 09:48 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> Hi there, >>> >>> I wanted to use the SVG TEI logo here: >>> >>> <http://www.tei-c.org/About/Logos/> >>> >>> in a presentation, but Inkscape refuses to open it. When I look at it in >>> Oxygen, it appears to be full of horrible Adobe-specific extensions. >>> Does anyone have the original .ai file it came from? It would be nice to >>> create a clean compliant SVG version of the logo. I think it's possible >>> to generate proper SVG from .ai files one way or another. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 24 13:43:47 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 18:43:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] attribute datatypes Message-ID: <512A5F63.6060804@retired.ox.ac.uk> Just a word (well, several) on attribute datatypes. I believe our policy to be that attributes define their datatype indirectly by refering to one of the existing data.xxx macros, which are then mapped to a RELAXNG expression. This additional layer of indirection allows us to say something about the datatype independently of how it's currently constrained by the RELAXNG schemas, and is thus, I contend, A Good Thing, which should be applied consistently. As, for the most part, it is. However I have discovered the following which appear to me to be anomalous: 1. source at readFrom is defined directly as "anyURI" which is a macro, not a datatype: It should be corrected to data.pointer 2. att.lexicographic at opt and fDecl at optional are both defined as boolean, but should probably be data.truthValue 3. timeline at interval and when at interval are both defined using ad hoc RNG constructs (but not identical ones); we should define a data.interval which is consistent. 4. language at usage uses an adhoc RNG datatype directly; we should define a new "data.percentage" macro for it (and look for other cases where this might be used) 5. application at version uses an adhoc RNG expression, which surely ought to be replaced by a "data.versionNum" macro 6. Several attributes [moduleRef at except and @include; att.identified at module; @key, on classRef, elementRef, macroRef, and moduleRef; moduleRef at prefix] use the built in RNG datatype "NCName". It might be more consistent to define our own macro "data.xmlName" vel sim. 7. That old bugbear rng:text is still used on most of the attributes delivered by att.lexicographic (expand, norm, orig, split, and value); two attributes which hold regexp values (att.patternReplacement at replacementPattern and att.scoping at match); also on refState at delim, and valItem at ident. I think we should have just one datatype for "string of words to be treated as a single entity" and use that for some of these; for the regexpes surely we should have data.regexp. 8. Many many attributes currently include <valList>s of various levels of closure. I felt too faint to check (and I think someone else already has), but they should all also have a datatype of data.enumerated. Yes, I know this should be a ticket or several such. But I thought it might be a good idea to check that we're all agreed on the principle before setting in motion its consequences. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 24 14:02:46 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 19:02:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] attribute datatypes In-Reply-To: <512A5F63.6060804@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <512A5F63.6060804@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <b43545f4-4e03-4565-9ef0-73bb405e1ac3@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> I do agree they should be consistent, but I do wonder whether there isn't a law of diminishing returns in defining macros for every pattern. I am not so bothered myself by a few raw <rng:data> where it is a one-off and its expressive. i'd count things like converting <rng:data type="boolean"/> to data.truthValue as a corrigible error, and just make the change it if I saw it. ie not worth a ticket. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Feb 24 14:38:16 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 11:38:16 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] attribute datatypes In-Reply-To: <512A5F63.6060804@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <512A5F63.6060804@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <512A6C28.2080201@uvic.ca> I definitely agree with the principle. The two @interval attributes are interesting, though; in addition to a float (in both cases), <when> allows a string value of "unknown", while <timeline> has possible values of "regular" and "irregular". If we were to unify those under a single macro, those text values would have to be shared, and I'm not sure that's ideal. <when interval="irregular"> seems meaningless to me. Cheers, Martin On 13-02-24 10:43 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > Just a word (well, several) on attribute datatypes. > > I believe our policy to be that attributes define their datatype > indirectly by refering to one of the existing data.xxx macros, which > are then mapped to a RELAXNG expression. This additional layer of > indirection allows us to say something about the datatype > independently of how it's currently constrained by the RELAXNG > schemas, and is thus, I contend, A Good Thing, which should be applied > consistently. As, for the most part, it is. However I have > discovered the following which appear to me to be anomalous: > > 1. source at readFrom is defined directly as "anyURI" which is a macro, > not a datatype: It should be corrected to data.pointer > > 2. att.lexicographic at opt and fDecl at optional are both defined as > boolean, but should probably be data.truthValue > > 3. timeline at interval and when at interval are both defined using ad > hoc RNG constructs (but not identical ones); we should define a > data.interval which is consistent. > > 4. language at usage uses an adhoc RNG datatype directly; we should > define a new "data.percentage" macro for it (and look for other cases > where this might be used) > > 5. application at version uses an adhoc RNG expression, which surely ought > to be replaced by a "data.versionNum" macro > > 6. Several attributes [moduleRef at except and @include; > att.identified at module; @key, on classRef, elementRef, macroRef, and > moduleRef; moduleRef at prefix] use the built in RNG datatype "NCName". It > might > be more consistent to define our own macro "data.xmlName" vel sim. > > 7. That old bugbear rng:text is still used on most of the attributes > delivered by att.lexicographic (expand, norm, orig, split, and > value); two attributes which hold regexp values > (att.patternReplacement at replacementPattern and att.scoping at match); > also on refState at delim, and valItem at ident. I think we should have > just one datatype for "string of words to be treated as a single entity" and > use that for some of these; for the regexpes surely we should have > data.regexp. > > > 8. Many many attributes currently include <valList>s of various levels > of closure. I felt too faint to check (and I think someone else > already has), but they should all also have a datatype of data.enumerated. > > Yes, I know this should be a ticket or several such. But I thought it > might be a good idea to check that we're all agreed on the principle > before setting in motion its consequences. > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 26 10:50:48 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 15:50:48 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] attribute datatypes In-Reply-To: <512A6C28.2080201@uvic.ca> References: <512A5F63.6060804@retired.ox.ac.uk> <512A6C28.2080201@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <512CD9D8.2030407@retired.ox.ac.uk> OK, I will add a ticket for the ones that are not just corrigible errors (i.e. 1 and 2, which I have just fixed) Re @interval -- "interesting" as in "interesting times" methinks -- Personally, I cannot get my head round the idea of any interval which is not regular, but in any case if this is a distinction worth making (between regular and irregular that is) it ought to be a separate attribute, shirley. On 24/02/13 19:38, Martin Holmes wrote: > I definitely agree with the principle. The two @interval attributes are > interesting, though; in addition to a float (in both cases), <when> > allows a string value of "unknown", while <timeline> has possible values > of "regular" and "irregular". If we were to unify those under a single > macro, those text values would have to be shared, and I'm not sure > that's ideal. <when interval="irregular"> seems meaningless to me. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-02-24 10:43 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> Just a word (well, several) on attribute datatypes. >> >> I believe our policy to be that attributes define their datatype >> indirectly by refering to one of the existing data.xxx macros, which >> are then mapped to a RELAXNG expression. This additional layer of >> indirection allows us to say something about the datatype >> independently of how it's currently constrained by the RELAXNG >> schemas, and is thus, I contend, A Good Thing, which should be applied >> consistently. As, for the most part, it is. However I have >> discovered the following which appear to me to be anomalous: >> >> 1. source at readFrom is defined directly as "anyURI" which is a macro, >> not a datatype: It should be corrected to data.pointer >> >> 2. att.lexicographic at opt and fDecl at optional are both defined as >> boolean, but should probably be data.truthValue >> >> 3. timeline at interval and when at interval are both defined using ad >> hoc RNG constructs (but not identical ones); we should define a >> data.interval which is consistent. >> >> 4. language at usage uses an adhoc RNG datatype directly; we should >> define a new "data.percentage" macro for it (and look for other cases >> where this might be used) >> >> 5. application at version uses an adhoc RNG expression, which surely ought >> to be replaced by a "data.versionNum" macro >> >> 6. Several attributes [moduleRef at except and @include; >> att.identified at module; @key, on classRef, elementRef, macroRef, and >> moduleRef; moduleRef at prefix] use the built in RNG datatype "NCName". It >> might >> be more consistent to define our own macro "data.xmlName" vel sim. >> >> 7. That old bugbear rng:text is still used on most of the attributes >> delivered by att.lexicographic (expand, norm, orig, split, and >> value); two attributes which hold regexp values >> (att.patternReplacement at replacementPattern and att.scoping at match); >> also on refState at delim, and valItem at ident. I think we should have >> just one datatype for "string of words to be treated as a single entity" and >> use that for some of these; for the regexpes surely we should have >> data.regexp. >> >> >> 8. Many many attributes currently include <valList>s of various levels >> of closure. I felt too faint to check (and I think someone else >> already has), but they should all also have a datatype of data.enumerated. >> >> Yes, I know this should be a ticket or several such. But I thought it >> might be a good idea to check that we're all agreed on the principle >> before setting in motion its consequences. >> From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 27 17:41:13 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:41:13 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] sluice your glosses Message-ID: <512E8B89.5040008@retired.ox.ac.uk> A French colleague has been very helpfully re-reading and correcting gross errors in the French translation of TEI Lite I mentioned a week or two ago. He's picked up lots of slips in the P5 tag descriptions, as well as some gaps, typos, missing accents etc. He also makes a strong plea for finding some better way of explaining the tag name "sic". In the English, this is glossed "Latin for "thus" or "so"; in the French simply "latin pour ainsi" (which is unidiomatic and fairly incomprehensible). He suggests we need to explain more exactly why this tag is so named. "Au lieu de (latin pour ainsi ) qu?un non sp?cialiste relira plusieurs fois pour comprendre je dirais plut?t ? expression latine signifiant identique utilis?e dans les ?dition savantes pour signaler l??dition d?un passage ou d?un mot ? l?identique ? C?EST LONG MAIS MALHEUREUSEMENT LES G?N?RATIONS ?TUDIANTES ACTUELLES EN France (JE NE PARLE PAS DES CHARTISTES OU DES NORMALIENS) IGNORENT LA PLUPART DES EXPRESSIONS OU SENTENCES LATINES. DONC SI TU VEUX ?LARGIR LE PUBLIC, COMME POUR LES REF LITT?RAIRES IL FAUT ETRE MOINS ?LITISTE" ( "les ref litteraires" is because I forgot to include bibliographic references for the new French examples in the version he read; now fixed) But the trouble is, the <gloss> in a TEI element spec is just intended to expand on a gi such as <lb/> (or, indeed, <gi>) which isn't a word -- not give a long explanation of why it is so called. Otherwise we'll never finish. So I am inclined to think that the best solution is just to remove the <gloss> entirely -- in English as well as other languages -- and maybe add a <remark> explaining why this tag is so-named. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 27 17:53:20 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:53:20 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] sluice your glosses In-Reply-To: <512E8B89.5040008@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <512E8B89.5040008@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <fc1f1dd2-a098-4262-bf45-5afdbacb361b@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> As an odd implemntor (in both senses), I would much welcome the death of <gloss>. It adds a layer of pain, and its advantage minimal. If yu need a gloss, make it art of desc prose. I would be quite surprised if there were many mourners at the funeral. Just a few stifled sobs, and a stiff bow to the coffin, and send it on its way. Carved in stone on my iPad > From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed Feb 27 20:24:25 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 20:24:25 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] sluice your glosses In-Reply-To: <fc1f1dd2-a098-4262-bf45-5afdbacb361b@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <512E8B89.5040008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <fc1f1dd2-a098-4262-bf45-5afdbacb361b@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <512EB1C9.4050900@ultraslavonic.info> Since we go around telling people that you shouldn't read element names literally -- for example, that a <monogr> can include things that you don't think of as a "monograph" and that <msDesc> can be used to describe early printed books, not just handwritten manuscripts -- it seems to me that doing away with <gloss> in element specs, as Lou and Sebastian suggest, would be in line with what we say. Lou said in his message "Otherwise we'll never finish" [if we don't do this], though I'm not sure what he means. --Kevin On 2/27/13 5:53 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > As an odd implemntor (in both senses), I would much welcome the death of <gloss>. It adds a layer of pain, and its advantage minimal. If yu need a gloss, make it art of desc prose. I would be quite surprised if there were many mourners at the funeral. Just a few stifled sobs, and a stiff bow to the coffin, and send it on its way. > > Carved in stone on my iPad >> From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 28 05:23:14 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:23:14 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] sluice your glosses In-Reply-To: <512EB1C9.4050900@ultraslavonic.info> References: <512E8B89.5040008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <fc1f1dd2-a098-4262-bf45-5afdbacb361b@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <512EB1C9.4050900@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <512F3012.4020205@it.ox.ac.uk> On 28/02/13 01:24, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Since we go around telling people that you shouldn't read > element names literally -- for example, that a <monogr> can > include things that you don't think of as a "monograph" and > that <msDesc> can be used to describe early printed books, not > just handwritten manuscripts -- it seems to me that doing away > with <gloss> in element specs, as Lou and Sebastian suggest, > would be in line with what we say. Yes, I'd agree with this. Retain the element (and continue to allow it at that point for those existing ODDs that use it) but remove it from all official TEI use as an example. Move any existing glosses that would be helpful (e.g. 'sic' but with more explanation) to a <remark> or <desc> with more explanation. If no one objects strongly to this in the next couple days, can I have a volunteer to implement it? > Lou said in his message "Otherwise we'll never finish" [if we > don't do this], though I'm not sure what he means. I think he means that we'd talk about it forever and not make a decision. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 28 07:13:51 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:13:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] sluice your glosses In-Reply-To: <512F3012.4020205@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <512E8B89.5040008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <fc1f1dd2-a098-4262-bf45-5afdbacb361b@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <512EB1C9.4050900@ultraslavonic.info> <512F3012.4020205@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <512F49FF.3000309@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 28/02/13 10:23, James Cummings wrote: > On 28/02/13 01:24, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> Since we go around telling people that you shouldn't read >> element names literally -- for example, that a <monogr> can >> include things that you don't think of as a "monograph" and >> that <msDesc> can be used to describe early printed books, not >> just handwritten manuscripts I think these are two rather exceptional cases : for the most part tag names (once you know what they are) *should* be used for the things their names suggest. Even in these cases, the fact that they can also be used for other things doesn't invalidate that. -- it seems to me that doing away >> with <gloss> in element specs, as Lou and Sebastian suggest, >> would be in line with what we say. > > Yes, I'd agree with this. Retain the element (and continue to > allow it at that point for those existing ODDs that use it) but > remove it from all official TEI use as an example. Move any > existing glosses that would be helpful (e.g. 'sic' but with more > explanation) to a <remark> or <desc> with more explanation. > > If no one objects strongly to this in the next couple days, can I > have a volunteer to implement it? I have no idea what "all official TEI use" means as distinct from the "existing ODDs" (are our existing ODDs unofficial in some way?), but I do think this is a somewhat draconian and misguided reaction to the problem I was raising. The intended use for the things currently tagged as <gloss> is to indicate an expansion of a tagname which is otherwise meaningless or ambiguous to a native speaker. Examples include <lb> and <p>. This is very useful! Lots of people like using short tags (cf the dictionary chapter) even though we try hard to make tag names complete words and it doesn't cramp their style too much to require them also to add an expansion. It would be a highly retrograde step to remove them, though I don't think that's what James is proposing, but it would also be a shame to preclude their use in future short tags <imho/> (which I think he is proposing). These expansions are also useful (if properly recognised for what they are) to the non-native speaker, though sometimes it is necessary to add further explanation of why that (expanded) term is used or to translate it. As we're all non-native speakers of Latin (I assume) this is why <sic> is an interesting case. <eg> might be another, if it wasn't for the fact that Molesworth has made this effectively an English word -- no one is proposing that we add a gloss of "exemplia gratia" rather than the current "example" (I hope); the problem with <sic> is that people apparently don't understand what it means, even though it's not an abbreviation. We should recognise that <gloss> is actually being used as a synonym for <expan> when it appears in an <elemntSpec> or similar; we shouldn't use it to provide discursive or etymological explanations of why the thing has that name. If that's necessary, provide it in the <remarks>. See <fw> for example -- NOBODY knows why it's called "forme work", even native speakers, so we should add an explanation there. Alternatively, we provide a different tag for the "etymological discussion" of a tag rethink <gloss> with more structure within it, e.g. <tagEtym><expan>forme work</expan><gloss>from the printer's term for material common to all formes (i.e the block in which type was set)</gloss></tagEtym> This has the advantage of addressing a frequent reproach made by non-native speakers, viz that even after the tagname has been expanded they still don't know what the deuce it means. And the disadvantage of giving everyone's favourite ODD editor even more white hairs. > > >> Lou said in his message "Otherwise we'll never finish" [if we >> don't do this], though I'm not sure what he means. > > I think he means that we'd talk about it forever and not make a > decision. > I might well have meant that, but actually I meant that providing reasons why any tag has the name it has is a rather open ended task. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 28 07:25:42 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:25:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] sluice your glosses In-Reply-To: <512F49FF.3000309@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <512E8B89.5040008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <fc1f1dd2-a098-4262-bf45-5afdbacb361b@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <512EB1C9.4050900@ultraslavonic.info> <512F3012.4020205@it.ox.ac.uk> <512F49FF.3000309@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <58d9daf7-2f20-48a8-b7c8-9db04138897b@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> I incline to think that lou is problematising this. Give an element or attribute a <desc> field, and let the ODD author put in there whatever is needed to explain it to the user. if that involves prefixing it "(line break)", that's fine by me. Norm Walsh doesn't feel the need at http://www.docbook.org/tdg5/en/html/lhs.html to be explicit that "lhs" stands for left hand side", it is better done in his "The left-hand side of an EBNF production" if we didn't have <gloss>, would anyone ever ask for it? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 28 07:34:00 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:34:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] sluice your glosses In-Reply-To: <8854BC6A-1F9B-4B65-AC40-9B71AF0436BE@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <512E8B89.5040008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <fc1f1dd2-a098-4262-bf45-5afdbacb361b@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <512EB1C9.4050900@ultraslavonic.info> <512F3012.4020205@it.ox.ac.uk> <512F49FF.3000309@retired.ox.ac.uk> <8854BC6A-1F9B-4B65-AC40-9B71AF0436BE@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <512F4EB8.9090402@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 28/02/13 12:25, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I incline to think that lou is problematising this. Give an element or attribute a <desc> field, > and let the ODD author put in there whatever is needed to explain it to the user. if > that involves prefixing it "(line break)", that's fine by me. > There is a distinction between explaining the rationale for a name, and describing the ways that the thing named should be used. And isn't it a good idea to enforce some discipline about always putting the expansion in parens at the start? > Norm Walsh doesn't feel the need at http://www.docbook.org/tdg5/en/html/lhs.html > to be explicit that "lhs" stands for left hand side", it is better done in his "The left-hand side of an EBNF production" > ... which means that when you translate "the left hand side of an EBNF production" into French you are completely stumped as to why this thing is called "lhs" > if we didn't have <gloss>, would anyone ever ask for it? > -- yes. me. But I am somewhat puzzled. Are you in favour of (a) adding more waffle into the existing <gloss>es as and when someone says they are puzzled by their meanings (b) removing all existing <gloss>es entirely (c) merging existing <gloss>es into their sibling <desc>s (d) restricting <gloss>es to expansions and moving any useful waffle elsewhere? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 28 07:56:30 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:56:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] sluice your glosses In-Reply-To: <512F4EB8.9090402@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <512E8B89.5040008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <fc1f1dd2-a098-4262-bf45-5afdbacb361b@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <512EB1C9.4050900@ultraslavonic.info> <512F3012.4020205@it.ox.ac.uk> <512F49FF.3000309@retired.ox.ac.uk> <8854BC6A-1F9B-4B65-AC40-9B71AF0436BE@it.ox.ac.uk> <512F4EB8.9090402@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5d2323aa-98e6-4916-86da-fb1df82c1681@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 28 Feb 2013, at 12:34, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > On 28/02/13 12:25, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> I incline to think that lou is problematising this. Give an element or attribute a <desc> field, >> and let the ODD author put in there whatever is needed to explain it to the user. if >> that involves prefixing it "(line break)", that's fine by me. >> > > There is a distinction between explaining the rationale for a name, and describing the ways that the thing named should be used. there is indeed. and getting into it is called "problematisation" in the trade :-} > And isn't it a good idea to enforce some discipline about always putting the expansion in parens at the start? to be honest, no. its over-prescriptive. > >> Norm Walsh doesn't feel the need at http://www.docbook.org/tdg5/en/html/lhs.html >> to be explicit that "lhs" stands for left hand side", it is better done in his "The left-hand side of an EBNF production" >> > > ... which means that when you translate "the left hand side of an EBNF production" into French you are completely stumped as to why this thing is called "lhs" > thats up the French translator to decide whether or not the user needs to know the derivation of the tag name. hey, i sound like Lou, promoting freedom for the authors to do what they want! > (a) adding more waffle into the existing <gloss>es as and when someone says they are puzzled by their meanings > (b) removing all existing <gloss>es entirely > (c) merging existing <gloss>es into their sibling <desc>s > (d) restricting <gloss>es to expansions and moving any useful waffle elsewhere? > ( c ), probably zapping some along the way. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 28 12:14:30 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:14:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] sluice your glosses In-Reply-To: <04FF568F-317E-403D-9FD8-A991F0A4BD6C@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <512E8B89.5040008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <fc1f1dd2-a098-4262-bf45-5afdbacb361b@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <512EB1C9.4050900@ultraslavonic.info> <512F3012.4020205@it.ox.ac.uk> <512F49FF.3000309@retired.ox.ac.uk> <8854BC6A-1F9B-4B65-AC40-9B71AF0436BE@it.ox.ac.uk> <512F4EB8.9090402@retired.ox.ac.uk> <04FF568F-317E-403D-9FD8-A991F0A4BD6C@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <512F9076.4050908@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 28/02/13 12:56, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > There is a distinction between explaining the rationale for a name, and describing the ways that the thing named should be used. > there is indeed. and getting into it is called "problematisation" in the trade :-} The TEI is all about "problematization" of that kind. Don't say you hadn't noticed ! >> And isn't it a good idea to enforce some discipline about always putting the expansion in parens at the start? > to be honest, no. its over-prescriptive. Well, why have a structured description of elements at all then? Why not just bung it all into a rambling paragraph of text? Hey wait a minute, we could just use XHTML for that! > >>> Norm Walsh doesn't feel the need at http://www.docbook.org/tdg5/en/html/lhs.html >>> to be explicit that "lhs" stands for left hand side", it is better done in his "The left-hand side of an EBNF production" >>> >> ... which means that when you translate "the left hand side of an EBNF production" into French you are completely stumped as to why this thing is called "lhs" >> > thats up the French translator to decide whether or not the user needs to know the derivation of the tag name. > > hey, i sound like Lou, promoting freedom for the authors to do what they want! > Actually, the difference between "author" and "translator" is really rather crucuial here. Most translators I know would feel it was definitely exceeding their brief to do more than translate the text in front of them. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 28 12:30:48 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:30:48 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] sluice your glosses In-Reply-To: <512F9076.4050908@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <512E8B89.5040008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <fc1f1dd2-a098-4262-bf45-5afdbacb361b@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <512EB1C9.4050900@ultraslavonic.info> <512F3012.4020205@it.ox.ac.uk> <512F49FF.3000309@retired.ox.ac.uk> <8854BC6A-1F9B-4B65-AC40-9B71AF0436BE@it.ox.ac.uk> <512F4EB8.9090402@retired.ox.ac.uk> <04FF568F-317E-403D-9FD8-A991F0A4BD6C@it.ox.ac.uk> <512F9076.4050908@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <9a6b39e4-71c8-44fa-b6dc-e9f8c81fa238@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 28 Feb 2013, at 17:14, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> There is a distinction between explaining the rationale for a name, and describing the ways that the thing named should be used. >> there is indeed. and getting into it is called "problematisation" in the trade :-} > > The TEI is all about "problematization" of that kind. Don't say you hadn't noticed ! oh yeah. the key is knowing when to stop, though?. > >>> And isn't it a good idea to enforce some discipline about always putting the expansion in parens at the start? >> to be honest, no. its over-prescriptive. > > Well, why have a structured description of elements at all then? Why not just bung it all into a rambling paragraph of text? Hey wait a minute, we could just use XHTML for that! > yup. good idea. > > Actually, the difference between "author" and "translator" is really rather crucuial here. Most translators I know would feel it was definitely exceeding their brief to do more than translate the text in front of them. > you need to talk to internationalizers, not translators -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 4 12:38:14 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 17:38:14 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Newsletter to TEI Members Message-ID: <5134DC06.5080501@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi TEI Technical Council, The TEI Board is preparing a brief newsletter for TEI Members. I'm tasked with writing a short report from the technical council on our activities in order to highlight all the good work you do (and of course value for money of TEI membership). If you have particular work we do that you think should be highlighted please let me know. Although I'm the newsletter will be seen by others, the target audience in this case is those that pay the bills of the TEI through their memberships. (I.e. they might not necessarily be those people at the institutions who are *using* TEI, but the membership contact who just wants to know what their money is going to. Of course sometimes these may be the same people, but often not.) If you can get me any thoughts in the next day or so I'd appreciate it. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 6 18:06:21 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 23:06:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang Message-ID: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> As per discussion on TEI-L, i have changed the data.language macro to be a union of xs:language and "". three possibilities: 1. you have no idea what I am talking about but are content to let it be 2. you understand, and really think this is Bad 3. you get the idea, and says yup thats fine so can anyone in class 2. shout now, please? -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Mar 6 18:17:02 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:17:02 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang In-Reply-To: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20791.52846.221276.546313@emt.ad.brown.edu> Nope, sorry. Don't know what class I fall into, and won't be able to catch up to conversation on TEI-L for a bit -- perhaps Fri or Sat. (We are getting hit with another storm tomorrow.) > As per discussion on TEI-L, i have changed the data.language macro > to be a union of xs:language and "". > > three possibilities: > 1. you have no idea what I am talking about but are content to let > it be 2. you understand, and really think this is Bad 3. you get the > idea, and says yup thats fine > > so can anyone in class 2. shout now, please? From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Mar 6 18:24:46 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 15:24:46 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang In-Reply-To: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5137D03E.7010501@uvic.ca> #4: I understand, but I think we haven't discussed it enough or understood the implications properly. In particular, what does @xml:lang="" mean or do? Cheers, Martin On 13-03-06 03:06 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > As per discussion on TEI-L, i have changed the data.language macro to be a union of xs:language and "". > > three possibilities: > 1. you have no idea what I am talking about but are content to let it be > 2. you understand, and really think this is Bad > 3. you get the idea, and says yup thats fine > > so can anyone in class 2. shout now, please? > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Wed Mar 6 18:41:16 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:41:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang In-Reply-To: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1303061840460.20118@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Class 3. -- ever the easy-going team player. On Wed, 6 Mar 2013, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > As per discussion on TEI-L, i have changed the data.language macro to be a union of xs:language and "". > > three possibilities: > 1. you have no idea what I am talking about but are content to let it be > 2. you understand, and really think this is Bad > 3. you get the idea, and says yup thats fine > > so can anyone in class 2. shout now, please? > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Mar 6 20:13:13 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 20:13:13 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang In-Reply-To: <5137D03E.7010501@uvic.ca> References: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> <5137D03E.7010501@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20791.59817.249299.206423@emt.ad.brown.edu> > #4: I understand, but I think we haven't discussed it enough or > understood the implications properly. > > In particular, what does @xml:lang="" mean or do? In particular, the empty value of xml:lang is used on an element B to override a specification of xml:lang on an enclosing element A, without specifying another language. Within B, it is considered that there is no language information available, just as if xml:lang had not been specified on B or any of its ancestors. Applications determine which of an element's attribute values and which parts of its character content, if any, are treated as language-dependent values described by xml:lang. -- Extensible Markup Language (XML) 1.0 (Fifth Edition) section 2.12 http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-lang-tag From philomousos at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 20:17:27 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 20:17:27 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang In-Reply-To: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <F4F8634C-E5A7-4276-B76B-5EEDF623391E@gmail.com> As I understand it, the choice is either allow @xml:lang="" or stop using @xml:lang. I vote allow it. Hugh On Mar 6, 2013, at 18:06 , Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at IT.OX.AC.UK> wrote: > As per discussion on TEI-L, i have changed the data.language macro to be a union of xs:language and "". > > three possibilities: > 1. you have no idea what I am talking about but are content to let it be > 2. you understand, and really think this is Bad > 3. you get the idea, and says yup thats fine > > so can anyone in class 2. shout now, please? > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 7 04:51:22 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 09:51:22 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang In-Reply-To: <F4F8634C-E5A7-4276-B76B-5EEDF623391E@gmail.com> References: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> <F4F8634C-E5A7-4276-B76B-5EEDF623391E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5138631A.5010107@it.ox.ac.uk> I'm a 3 I think. While I'm always wanting to discuss things more (as Martin suggests), I think the spec is fairly clear here isn't it? -James On 07/03/13 01:17, Hugh Cayless wrote: > As I understand it, the choice is either allow @xml:lang="" or stop using @xml:lang. I vote allow it. > > Hugh > > On Mar 6, 2013, at 18:06 , Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at IT.OX.AC.UK> wrote: > >> As per discussion on TEI-L, i have changed the data.language macro to be a union of xs:language and "". >> >> three possibilities: >> 1. you have no idea what I am talking about but are content to let it be >> 2. you understand, and really think this is Bad >> 3. you get the idea, and says yup thats fine >> >> so can anyone in class 2. shout now, please? >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz >> Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 7 06:15:52 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 11:15:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang In-Reply-To: <F4F8634C-E5A7-4276-B76B-5EEDF623391E@gmail.com> References: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> <F4F8634C-E5A7-4276-B76B-5EEDF623391E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <513876E8.7030807@retired.ox.ac.uk> Well put. I agree. On 07/03/13 01:17, Hugh Cayless wrote: > As I understand it, the choice is either allow @xml:lang="" or stop using @xml:lang. I vote allow it. > > Hugh > > On Mar 6, 2013, at 18:06 , Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at IT.OX.AC.UK> wrote: > >> As per discussion on TEI-L, i have changed the data.language macro to be a union of xs:language and "". >> >> three possibilities: >> 1. you have no idea what I am talking about but are content to let it be >> 2. you understand, and really think this is Bad >> 3. you get the idea, and says yup thats fine >> >> so can anyone in class 2. shout now, please? >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz >> Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 7 06:19:23 2013 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 11:19:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] New convenors for the MS SIG In-Reply-To: <C6459136-5E1D-4B28-AF58-3870352EF559@kcl.ac.uk> References: <C6459136-5E1D-4B28-AF58-3870352EF559@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513877BB.2040308@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Dear council, Just to note that the convenors of the MS SIG will be changing to Dot Porter and Gerrit Br?ning. Since responsibility for the SIGs has now fallen to Council chair I thought I should notify Council of this. Best, -James From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 7 07:33:31 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 12:33:31 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang In-Reply-To: <513876E8.7030807@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> <F4F8634C-E5A7-4276-B76B-5EEDF623391E@gmail.com> <513876E8.7030807@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <ed644447-0219-4cb7-9304-a32a48b4ff07@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> inevitably, the change broke the ODD 2 DTD generation. sigh. Fixed, anyway -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Mar 7 08:33:31 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 05:33:31 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang In-Reply-To: <20791.59817.249299.206423@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> <5137D03E.7010501@uvic.ca> <20791.59817.249299.206423@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5138972B.1000305@uvic.ca> OK, I'm #3 now (understand, and say go ahead). On 13-03-06 05:13 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: >> #4: I understand, but I think we haven't discussed it enough or >> understood the implications properly. >> >> In particular, what does @xml:lang="" mean or do? > > In particular, the empty value of xml:lang is used on an element B > to override a specification of xml:lang on an enclosing element A, > without specifying another language. Within B, it is considered > that there is no language information available, just as if > xml:lang had not been specified on B or any of its ancestors. > Applications determine which of an element's attribute values and > which parts of its character content, if any, are treated as > language-dependent values described by xml:lang. > -- Extensible Markup Language (XML) 1.0 (Fifth Edition) > section 2.12 > http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-lang-tag > From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Mar 7 08:44:51 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:44:51 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang In-Reply-To: <F4F8634C-E5A7-4276-B76B-5EEDF623391E@gmail.com> References: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> <F4F8634C-E5A7-4276-B76B-5EEDF623391E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20792.39379.685079.851999@emt.ad.brown.edu> Oh. As I said, I haven't read the posts that lead up to this, but I had (perhaps completely incorrectly) been presuming that the choice was between changing decls so that either a) attribute xml:lang { data.langauge | "" } OR b) data.language = xsd:language | "" I.e., not asking whether xml:lang= should allow empty values (of course it should), but whether or not the *other* things that are declared as data.language should allow empty values, too. (I'll have to look and see what I think.) > As I understand it, the choice is either allow @xml:lang="" or stop > using @xml:lang. I vote allow it. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 7 08:52:34 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 13:52:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang In-Reply-To: <20792.39379.685079.851999@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> <F4F8634C-E5A7-4276-B76B-5EEDF623391E@gmail.com> <20792.39379.685079.851999@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <A7594415-3835-418C-84B1-4D53B5CCF3E3@it.ox.ac.uk> On 7 Mar 2013, at 13:44, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at BROWN.EDU> wrote: > Oh. As I said, I haven't read the posts that lead up to this, but I > had (perhaps completely incorrectly) been presuming that the choice > was between changing decls so that either > > a) attribute xml:lang { data.langauge | "" } > OR > b) data.language = xsd:language | "" > > I.e., not asking whether xml:lang= should allow empty values (of > course it should), but whether or not the *other* things that are > declared as data.language should allow empty values, too. (I'll have > to look and see what I think.) that's a very fair point. I may well have jumped prematurely to b); easy enough to change over, obviously. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research Support) of Academic IT Services University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 7 09:07:23 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2013 14:07:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang In-Reply-To: <A7594415-3835-418C-84B1-4D53B5CCF3E3@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> <F4F8634C-E5A7-4276-B76B-5EEDF623391E@gmail.com> <20792.39379.685079.851999@emt.ad.brown.edu> <A7594415-3835-418C-84B1-4D53B5CCF3E3@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51389F1B.7030100@it.ox.ac.uk> On 07/03/13 13:52, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> a) attribute xml:lang { data.langauge | "" } >> OR >> b) data.language = xsd:language | "" >> I.e., not asking whether xml:lang= should allow empty values (of >> course it should), but whether or not the *other* things that are >> declared as data.language should allow empty values, too. (I'll have >> to look and see what I think.) > that's a very fair point. I may well have jumped prematurely to b); > easy enough to change over, obviously. data.language is used by Class: att.global/@xml:lang att.pointing/@targetLang Element: langKnowledge/@tags langKnown/@tag language/@ident schemaSpec/@targetLang schemaSpec/@docLang textLang/@mainLang textLang/@otherLangs In most cases I think these should be the same as whatever we decide for xml:lang so on the face of it I'm still in the 'go ahead' camp. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Mar 7 11:53:42 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 08:53:42 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] @xml:lang In-Reply-To: <20792.39379.685079.851999@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <D42DC29B-4185-49DB-96FC-B7165715BA31@it.ox.ac.uk> <F4F8634C-E5A7-4276-B76B-5EEDF623391E@gmail.com> <20792.39379.685079.851999@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5138C616.70908@uvic.ca> On 13-03-07 05:44 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > Oh. As I said, I haven't read the posts that lead up to this, but I > had (perhaps completely incorrectly) been presuming that the choice > was between changing decls so that either > > a) attribute xml:lang { data.langauge | "" } > OR > b) data.language = xsd:language | "" > > I.e., not asking whether xml:lang= should allow empty values (of > course it should), but whether or not the *other* things that are > declared as data.language should allow empty values, too. (I'll have > to look and see what I think.) I've had a look, and I don't think any of them really make sense with an empty value, unless we imagine that (for instance), in the context of a document which has @xml:lang specified, we might wish to use this: @targetLang="" to clarify that the external resource being pointed at is not in the same language as the pointing document. But I don't really see how this is different from not specifying @targetLang (it is optional), and since we don't specify that a document linked by a pointer should be assumed to have the same language as the linking document, it doesn't seem necessary. Thorts? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Mar 11 16:38:56 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 16:38:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Academic support enquiry (fwd) Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1303111635310.66645@lister.ei.virginia.edu> This is a very curious query. Any other suggestions beyond pointing him to chapter 8 of the Guidelines ("Transcriptions of Speech")? The questioner must be this person on the English faculty of Obafemia Awolowo University in Nigeria: http://egl.oauife.edu.ng/2012-07-23-19-55-31/olaosun-ibrahim-esan so he has been doing technical sociolinguistic stuff. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2013 13:34:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Ibrahim Olaosun <olaibrahimeo at yahoo.com> To: info at tei-c.org Subject: Academic support enquiry This e-mail is to find out if TEI could be of help in my post-doctoral research on professional wrestling discourse. I specifically want to transcribe the wrestlers' talks into text and to digitally captures the visual constructions of messages by them. Thanks. Olaosun From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 05:27:34 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 09:27:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Academic support enquiry (fwd) In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1303111635310.66645@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1303111635310.66645@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <3DD1D1D7-4610-4FA8-8416-F456C500EF93@it.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Mar 2013, at 20:38, David Sewell <dsewell at virginia.edu> wrote: > This is a very curious query. Any other suggestions beyond pointing him to > chapter 8 of the Guidelines ("Transcriptions of Speech")? Send him to TEI-L, I reckon. we're not a big enough group to sensibly help individual queries like this where it requires a long analysis conversation. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 07:59:49 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 11:59:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade Message-ID: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> I've just performed the Sourceforge upgrade for EpiDoc, and as promised am reporting back here on our experiences of that for the TEI upgrade (impending, as it has to be this month or they'll do it for us). It all went pretty smoothely: the upgrade took 2 minutes from when I requested it, and the repos were migrated 3 minutes after that. (TEI is a lot bigger than EpiDoc, so it may take longer, but I bet not orders of magnitude longer.) The FR and bug trackers seem to have copied across with no loss of content. (But would need to be frozen for a few minutes to be on the safe side...) The only difficulty is with the SVN repos so far. As warned, the addresses will change: the existing https address will become a read-only repo, and the new repo is accessible only via svn+ssh (and I haven't figured out how to get anonymous checkout of that yet). Updating all systems that depend on that will be a pain, but we'll have to do it. Should we get started soon? Has someone started a survey of all the places where the SVN url will need to be updated? Cheers, G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Mar 12 07:42:20 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 04:42:20 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513F149C.3070608@uvic.ca> I think we do need to figure out how to allow anonymous checkout. Can you still do anonymous checkout using the old address? If so, how long will that be available? Cheers, Martin On 13-03-12 04:59 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > I've just performed the Sourceforge upgrade for EpiDoc, and as promised > am reporting back here on our experiences of that for the TEI upgrade > (impending, as it has to be this month or they'll do it for us). > > It all went pretty smoothely: the upgrade took 2 minutes from when I > requested it, and the repos were migrated 3 minutes after that. (TEI is > a lot bigger than EpiDoc, so it may take longer, but I bet not orders of > magnitude longer.) The FR and bug trackers seem to have copied across > with no loss of content. (But would need to be frozen for a few minutes > to be on the safe side...) > > The only difficulty is with the SVN repos so far. As warned, the > addresses will change: the existing https address will become a > read-only repo, and the new repo is accessible only via svn+ssh (and I > haven't figured out how to get anonymous checkout of that yet). Updating > all systems that depend on that will be a pain, but we'll have to do it. > > Should we get started soon? Has someone started a survey of all the > places where the SVN url will need to be updated? > > Cheers, > > G > -- Martin Holmes mholmes at uvic.ca UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 09:01:03 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:01:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F149C.3070608@uvic.ca> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F149C.3070608@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <513F270F.3020705@kcl.ac.uk> You can still checkout from the old address, but the contents won't be up-to-date any more. I've no idea how long that will remain. Is it even possible to do an anonymous checkout via SSH? I bet SF have a less secure address for that sort of thing (I know Github do, for example). G On 2013-03-12 11:42, Martin Holmes wrote: > I think we do need to figure out how to allow anonymous checkout. Can > you still do anonymous checkout using the old address? If so, how long > will that be available? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-03-12 04:59 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> I've just performed the Sourceforge upgrade for EpiDoc, and as promised >> am reporting back here on our experiences of that for the TEI upgrade >> (impending, as it has to be this month or they'll do it for us). >> >> It all went pretty smoothely: the upgrade took 2 minutes from when I >> requested it, and the repos were migrated 3 minutes after that. (TEI is >> a lot bigger than EpiDoc, so it may take longer, but I bet not orders of >> magnitude longer.) The FR and bug trackers seem to have copied across >> with no loss of content. (But would need to be frozen for a few minutes >> to be on the safe side...) >> >> The only difficulty is with the SVN repos so far. As warned, the >> addresses will change: the existing https address will become a >> read-only repo, and the new repo is accessible only via svn+ssh (and I >> haven't figured out how to get anonymous checkout of that yet). Updating >> all systems that depend on that will be a pain, but we'll have to do it. >> >> Should we get started soon? Has someone started a survey of all the >> places where the SVN url will need to be updated? >> >> Cheers, >> >> G >> > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From philomousos at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 09:02:01 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 09:02:01 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F149C.3070608@uvic.ca> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F149C.3070608@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <E43C2746-E211-4D25-A0F3-566D6C6BB20C@gmail.com> Anonymous checkout looks like it will work fine, just with a different URL. See: http://sourceforge.net/p/epidoc/code/1872/tree/ On Mar 12, 2013, at 7:42 , Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > I think we do need to figure out how to allow anonymous checkout. Can > you still do anonymous checkout using the old address? If so, how long > will that be available? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-03-12 04:59 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> I've just performed the Sourceforge upgrade for EpiDoc, and as promised >> am reporting back here on our experiences of that for the TEI upgrade >> (impending, as it has to be this month or they'll do it for us). >> >> It all went pretty smoothely: the upgrade took 2 minutes from when I >> requested it, and the repos were migrated 3 minutes after that. (TEI is >> a lot bigger than EpiDoc, so it may take longer, but I bet not orders of >> magnitude longer.) The FR and bug trackers seem to have copied across >> with no loss of content. (But would need to be frozen for a few minutes >> to be on the safe side...) >> >> The only difficulty is with the SVN repos so far. As warned, the >> addresses will change: the existing https address will become a >> read-only repo, and the new repo is accessible only via svn+ssh (and I >> haven't figured out how to get anonymous checkout of that yet). Updating >> all systems that depend on that will be a pain, but we'll have to do it. >> >> Should we get started soon? Has someone started a survey of all the >> places where the SVN url will need to be updated? >> >> Cheers, >> >> G >> > > -- > Martin Holmes > mholmes at uvic.ca > UVic Humanities Computing and Media Centre > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From dsewell at virginia.edu Tue Mar 12 09:29:30 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 09:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Academic support enquiry (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3DD1D1D7-4610-4FA8-8416-F456C500EF93@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1303111635310.66645@lister.ei.virginia.edu> <3DD1D1D7-4610-4FA8-8416-F456C500EF93@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1303120929230.70724@lister.ei.virginia.edu> I have so suggested. On Tue, 12 Mar 2013, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 11 Mar 2013, at 20:38, David Sewell <dsewell at virginia.edu> > wrote: > >> This is a very curious query. Any other suggestions beyond pointing him to >> chapter 8 of the Guidelines ("Transcriptions of Speech")? > > Send him to TEI-L, I reckon. we're not a big enough group to > sensibly help individual queries like this where it requires a long > analysis conversation. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400314, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4314 USA Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Mar 12 10:12:33 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 10:12:33 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> On 3/12/2013 7:59 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Should we get started soon? Absolutely! I think it's better to do this on our timeline rather than have them do it for us on their timeline (the end of the month, as you noted above). > Has someone started a survey of all the > places where the SVN url will need to be updated? Not quite. I think this list would go under step 2 of "During" at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E0aV-E75VOLE_TCrEXVVqaez-9zlyDcpCTeF5QP2BPI/edit# From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 10:26:33 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:26:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <513F3B19.3050002@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 12/03/13 14:12, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Not quite. I think this list would go under step 2 of "During" at: > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E0aV-E75VOLE_TCrEXVVqaez-9zlyDcpCTeF5QP2BPI/edit# this document wont let me read it cos I am logged into my gmail account (a bit weird but i think i understand why). however, i quite agree that we should Just Do It. maybe gabby is the best person to push the button, since he's already done it once? From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 10:27:07 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:27:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> Thanks Kevin. Can you make that doc publicly viewable? On 2013-03-12 14:12, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 3/12/2013 7:59 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> Should we get started soon? > > Absolutely! I think it's better to do this on our timeline rather than > have them do it for us on their timeline (the end of the month, as you > noted above). > >> Has someone started a survey of all the >> places where the SVN url will need to be updated? > > Not quite. I think this list would go under step 2 of "During" at: > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E0aV-E75VOLE_TCrEXVVqaez-9zlyDcpCTeF5QP2BPI/edit# > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Mar 12 10:30:28 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 10:30:28 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> I've made it publicly viewable and will continue granting write access as people request. As I've written in this document, I think we should check a few things before we push the button. There might be some additional scripting we can do that will leave us with fewer inconveniences following the migration. On 3/12/2013 10:27 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Thanks Kevin. Can you make that doc publicly viewable? > > On 2013-03-12 14:12, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> On 3/12/2013 7:59 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> Should we get started soon? >> >> Absolutely! I think it's better to do this on our timeline rather than >> have them do it for us on their timeline (the end of the month, as you >> noted above). >> >>> Has someone started a survey of all the >>> places where the SVN url will need to be updated? >> >> Not quite. I think this list would go under step 2 of "During" at: >> >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E0aV-E75VOLE_TCrEXVVqaez-9zlyDcpCTeF5QP2BPI/edit# >> > From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 10:58:23 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:58:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> As I've just commented on that doc, two things: (1) the old tracker urls in sourceforge automatically redirect to the new ones after migration, which is a relief; (2) the new urls are much nicer, about as transparent and nice as the purls, in fact. (There may still be good reason for using purls--persistence--but the niceness of the urls is no longer one.) As a result, I think we've answered all the "Beforehand" part of Kevin's doc. The conversion of old URLs would still be nice, but is not a blocker to proceeding, in my opinion. G On 2013-03-12 14:30, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > I've made it publicly viewable and will continue granting write access > as people request. > > As I've written in this document, I think we should check a few things > before we push the button. There might be some additional scripting we > can do that will leave us with fewer inconveniences following the migration. > > On 3/12/2013 10:27 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> Thanks Kevin. Can you make that doc publicly viewable? >> >> On 2013-03-12 14:12, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> On 3/12/2013 7:59 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>> Should we get started soon? >>> >>> Absolutely! I think it's better to do this on our timeline rather than >>> have them do it for us on their timeline (the end of the month, as you >>> noted above). >>> >>>> Has someone started a survey of all the >>>> places where the SVN url will need to be updated? >>> >>> Not quite. I think this list would go under step 2 of "During" at: >>> >>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E0aV-E75VOLE_TCrEXVVqaez-9zlyDcpCTeF5QP2BPI/edit# >>> >> -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 12:30:25 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:30:25 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> On 12/03/13 14:58, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > As I've just commented on that doc, two things: > > (1) the old tracker urls in sourceforge automatically redirect to the > new ones after migration, which is a relief; Good news -- do we know if they have promised to keep this for any length of time? > (2) the new urls are much nicer, about as transparent and nice as the > purls, in fact. (There may still be good reason for using > purls--persistence--but the niceness of the urls is no longer one.) Good, we can keep the purls for now or start using the new ones. > As a result, I think we've answered all the "Beforehand" part of Kevin's > doc. The conversion of old URLs would still be nice, but is not a > blocker to proceeding, in my opinion. I've also done an "XML Export" of the whole project which gives me a record of all sorts of information, and every single ticket, response, etc. (an xpath of //tracker_item finds 1037 tickets , for what that it is worth, and 3844 followups). That sound about right? I don't want to put that somewhere publicly accessible (it has your basic account details like email address in it), but will put it "somewhere safe". If people think we're all basically ready to go then I'm in favour of that. I've not turned up any other major red flags (that kevin hasn't noted down). One of the decisions is whether this is a good point to move community-contributed code out of the repository (e.g. things like Byzantium and Vesta and process-pb). I'd be interested in a list from people, especially Sebastian, of what they think should be moved elsewhere? -James > > G > > On 2013-03-12 14:30, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> I've made it publicly viewable and will continue granting write access >> as people request. >> >> As I've written in this document, I think we should check a few things >> before we push the button. There might be some additional scripting we >> can do that will leave us with fewer inconveniences following the migration. >> >> On 3/12/2013 10:27 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> Thanks Kevin. Can you make that doc publicly viewable? >>> >>> On 2013-03-12 14:12, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>> On 3/12/2013 7:59 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>> Should we get started soon? >>>> >>>> Absolutely! I think it's better to do this on our timeline rather than >>>> have them do it for us on their timeline (the end of the month, as you >>>> noted above). >>>> >>>>> Has someone started a survey of all the >>>>> places where the SVN url will need to be updated? >>>> >>>> Not quite. I think this list would go under step 2 of "During" at: >>>> >>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E0aV-E75VOLE_TCrEXVVqaez-9zlyDcpCTeF5QP2BPI/edit# >>>> >>> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 12:55:20 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:55:20 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513F5DF8.4080000@kcl.ac.uk> In haste: On 2013-03-12 16:30, James Cummings wrote: > One of the decisions is whether this is a good point to move > community-contributed code out of the repository (e.g. things > like Byzantium and Vesta and process-pb). I'd be interested in a > list from people, especially Sebastian, of what they think should > be moved elsewhere? I think I'm with Kevin on this one: since we don't have any decision on this, and we need to upgrade pretty soon, I don't see any reason to tie these two things together, do you? -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 12:58:06 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:58:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F5DF8.4080000@kcl.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F5DF8.4080000@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513F5E9E.9000402@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 12/03/13 16:55, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > In haste: > > On 2013-03-12 16:30, James Cummings wrote: >> One of the decisions is whether this is a good point to move >> community-contributed code out of the repository (e.g. things >> like Byzantium and Vesta and process-pb). I'd be interested in a >> list from people, especially Sebastian, of what they think should >> be moved elsewhere? > I think I'm with Kevin on this one: since we don't have any decision on > this, and we need to upgrade pretty soon, I don't see any reason to tie > these two things together, do you? > I agree with Gabby. If we wind up with some deadwood left behind on sf (e.g. tei-emacs which is currently giving me grief) so much the better. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 13:33:34 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:33:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <e9d11572-7e76-4630-943e-34e06b07e608@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 12 Mar 2013, at 16:30, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > One of the decisions is whether this is a good point to move > community-contributed code out of the repository (e.g. things > like Byzantium and Vesta and process-pb). I'd be interested in a > list from people, especially Sebastian, of what they think should > be moved elsewhere? I'm happy to move passivetex, Stylesheets-xslt1, TEIOO-Deprecated, TEIWORD, jerusalem, Vesta and tei-emacs to Github; but I see any advantage to doing it before the migration. Just press the button, Luke. Byzantium is not on SF process-pb is part of Stylesjheets. splitting that is a bigger project -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 13:43:54 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:43:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> In that case does anyone have any final reservations that I should not do this *tomorrow* Wednesday 13 March? I will take silence as assent and proceed tomorrow if I don't hear cries of stop. I'll send an email to this list announcing before I start (so get anything checked into SVN now while you can). And I'll send email out afterwards saying that it is done. (And that the Jenkins owners should reconfigure their jenkins) and then to TEI-L noting the change of URLs for the repository etc. -James On 12/03/13 17:33, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 12 Mar 2013, at 16:30, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> One of the decisions is whether this is a good point to move >> community-contributed code out of the repository (e.g. things >> like Byzantium and Vesta and process-pb). I'd be interested in a >> list from people, especially Sebastian, of what they think should >> be moved elsewhere? > > > I'm happy to move passivetex, Stylesheets-xslt1, TEIOO-Deprecated, TEIWORD, jerusalem, Vesta and tei-emacs to Github; > but I see any advantage to doing it before the migration. Just press the button, Luke. > > Byzantium is not on SF > > process-pb is part of Stylesjheets. splitting that is a bigger project > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 13:45:09 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:45:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <e9d11572-7e76-4630-943e-34e06b07e608@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <e9d11572-7e76-4630-943e-34e06b07e608@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513F69A5.3000701@kcl.ac.uk> Then if we want to roll, we just need: (a) code freeze, general announcement (b) someone press the button (in the morning, I'd suggest) (c) with people who maintain the jinkses (and any externals in the svn?) on standby to update the urls asap. (d) release code freeze... Anything missing? On 2013-03-12 17:33, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 12 Mar 2013, at 16:30, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> One of the decisions is whether this is a good point to move >> community-contributed code out of the repository (e.g. things >> like Byzantium and Vesta and process-pb). I'd be interested in a >> list from people, especially Sebastian, of what they think should >> be moved elsewhere? > > > I'm happy to move passivetex, Stylesheets-xslt1, TEIOO-Deprecated, TEIWORD, jerusalem, Vesta and tei-emacs to Github; > but I see any advantage to doing it before the migration. Just press the button, Luke. > > Byzantium is not on SF > > process-pb is part of Stylesjheets. splitting that is a bigger project > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Mar 12 13:45:58 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 13:45:58 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513F69D6.8030600@ultraslavonic.info> Are there any members of the TEI's SF project (like Laurent) who are not currently on tei-council but are still occasionally committing revisions? If so, they should be notified as well. --K. On 3/12/2013 1:43 PM, James Cummings wrote: > > In that case does anyone have any final reservations that I > should not do this *tomorrow* Wednesday 13 March? > > I will take silence as assent and proceed tomorrow if I don't > hear cries of stop. > I'll send an email to this list announcing before I start (so get > anything checked into SVN now while you can). And I'll send email > out afterwards saying that it is done. (And that the Jenkins > owners should reconfigure their jenkins) and then to TEI-L noting > the change of URLs for the repository etc. > > -James > > > On 12/03/13 17:33, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 12 Mar 2013, at 16:30, James Cummings<james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> One of the decisions is whether this is a good point to move >>> community-contributed code out of the repository (e.g. things >>> like Byzantium and Vesta and process-pb). I'd be interested in a >>> list from people, especially Sebastian, of what they think should >>> be moved elsewhere? >> >> >> I'm happy to move passivetex, Stylesheets-xslt1, TEIOO-Deprecated, TEIWORD, jerusalem, Vesta and tei-emacs to Github; >> but I see any advantage to doing it before the migration. Just press the button, Luke. >> >> Byzantium is not on SF >> >> process-pb is part of Stylesjheets. splitting that is a bigger project >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > > From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 13:46:17 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:46:17 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> Wouldn't it be polite to give TEI-L advance warning as well, so that people whose services depend on TEI repo (such as the EpiDoc guidelines), know to be on standby to fix stuff? On 2013-03-12 17:43, James Cummings wrote: > > In that case does anyone have any final reservations that I > should not do this *tomorrow* Wednesday 13 March? > > I will take silence as assent and proceed tomorrow if I don't > hear cries of stop. > I'll send an email to this list announcing before I start (so get > anything checked into SVN now while you can). And I'll send email > out afterwards saying that it is done. (And that the Jenkins > owners should reconfigure their jenkins) and then to TEI-L noting > the change of URLs for the repository etc. > > -James > > > On 12/03/13 17:33, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 12 Mar 2013, at 16:30, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> One of the decisions is whether this is a good point to move >>> community-contributed code out of the repository (e.g. things >>> like Byzantium and Vesta and process-pb). I'd be interested in a >>> list from people, especially Sebastian, of what they think should >>> be moved elsewhere? >> >> >> I'm happy to move passivetex, Stylesheets-xslt1, TEIOO-Deprecated, TEIWORD, jerusalem, Vesta and tei-emacs to Github; >> but I see any advantage to doing it before the migration. Just press the button, Luke. >> >> Byzantium is not on SF >> >> process-pb is part of Stylesjheets. splitting that is a bigger project >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 13:52:42 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 17:52:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> True, and as Kevin says notify people who also commit things to SF -- but if I include that in the TEI-L announcement maybe that is enough. (It isn't like we're getting thousands of commits a day.) I'll write up an announcement this evening. -James On 12/03/13 17:46, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Wouldn't it be polite to give TEI-L advance warning as well, so that > people whose services depend on TEI repo (such as the EpiDoc > guidelines), know to be on standby to fix stuff? > > On 2013-03-12 17:43, James Cummings wrote: >> >> In that case does anyone have any final reservations that I >> should not do this *tomorrow* Wednesday 13 March? >> >> I will take silence as assent and proceed tomorrow if I don't >> hear cries of stop. >> I'll send an email to this list announcing before I start (so get >> anything checked into SVN now while you can). And I'll send email >> out afterwards saying that it is done. (And that the Jenkins >> owners should reconfigure their jenkins) and then to TEI-L noting >> the change of URLs for the repository etc. >> >> -James >> >> >> On 12/03/13 17:33, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> >>> On 12 Mar 2013, at 16:30, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> One of the decisions is whether this is a good point to move >>>> community-contributed code out of the repository (e.g. things >>>> like Byzantium and Vesta and process-pb). I'd be interested in a >>>> list from people, especially Sebastian, of what they think should >>>> be moved elsewhere? >>> >>> >>> I'm happy to move passivetex, Stylesheets-xslt1, TEIOO-Deprecated, TEIWORD, jerusalem, Vesta and tei-emacs to Github; >>> but I see any advantage to doing it before the migration. Just press the button, Luke. >>> >>> Byzantium is not on SF >>> >>> process-pb is part of Stylesjheets. splitting that is a bigger project >>> -- >>> Sebastian Rahtz >>> Director (Research) of Academic IT >>> University of Oxford IT Services >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>> >> >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 14:13:06 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 18:13:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513F7032.9050201@kcl.ac.uk> People should stop submitting or commenting tickets for at least a few minutes too, right? (I would warn TEI-L before pushing the button, and then let them know when it's all stable again [hopefully 5 minutes later, as with EpiDoc].) On 2013-03-12 17:52, James Cummings wrote: > > True, and as Kevin says notify people who also commit things to > SF -- but if I include that in the TEI-L announcement maybe that > is enough. (It isn't like we're getting thousands of commits a day.) > > I'll write up an announcement this evening. > > -James > > On 12/03/13 17:46, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> Wouldn't it be polite to give TEI-L advance warning as well, so that >> people whose services depend on TEI repo (such as the EpiDoc >> guidelines), know to be on standby to fix stuff? >> >> On 2013-03-12 17:43, James Cummings wrote: >>> >>> In that case does anyone have any final reservations that I >>> should not do this *tomorrow* Wednesday 13 March? >>> >>> I will take silence as assent and proceed tomorrow if I don't >>> hear cries of stop. >>> I'll send an email to this list announcing before I start (so get >>> anything checked into SVN now while you can). And I'll send email >>> out afterwards saying that it is done. (And that the Jenkins >>> owners should reconfigure their jenkins) and then to TEI-L noting >>> the change of URLs for the repository etc. >>> >>> -James >>> >>> >>> On 12/03/13 17:33, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>> >>>> On 12 Mar 2013, at 16:30, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> One of the decisions is whether this is a good point to move >>>>> community-contributed code out of the repository (e.g. things >>>>> like Byzantium and Vesta and process-pb). I'd be interested in a >>>>> list from people, especially Sebastian, of what they think should >>>>> be moved elsewhere? >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm happy to move passivetex, Stylesheets-xslt1, TEIOO-Deprecated, TEIWORD, jerusalem, Vesta and tei-emacs to Github; >>>> but I see any advantage to doing it before the migration. Just press the button, Luke. >>>> >>>> Byzantium is not on SF >>>> >>>> process-pb is part of Stylesjheets. splitting that is a bigger project >>>> -- >>>> Sebastian Rahtz >>>> Director (Research) of Academic IT >>>> University of Oxford IT Services >>>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>>> >>> >>> >> > > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 19:06:39 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:06:39 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513F7032.9050201@kcl.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F7032.9050201@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <E1C03CFA-BA4B-435D-B182-E8AAA0FB514B@it.ox.ac.uk> Some would argue we should use this opportunity to convert from Subversion to Git (within the same Sourceforge setup). I just took some pleasure in removing passivetex, Vesta, tei-emacs, javalib, and XSLT 1.0 TEI stylesheets from Sourceforge, and taking them off to Github. It leaves the room a little bare, but all the better for that. The conversion from SVN to Git is surprisingly (or not) easy. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 12 19:28:22 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 23:28:22 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <E1C03CFA-BA4B-435D-B182-E8AAA0FB514B@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F7032.9050201@kcl.ac.uk>, <E1C03CFA-BA4B-435D-B182-E8AAA0FB514B@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <0e13d798-aa12-4ae3-90ae-756a3c1ce36e@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> I'm going to assume that we aren't switching to git as a technology for the Guidelines repo since I believe that is what we decided at our last face to face when discussing it. Presumably we could do this at a later stage? I'll post the warning message to TEI-L that I've drafted in the morning, then another when the process is complete noting that there may be some mistaken URLs in places until we get a chance to fix them. Best James -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: Some would argue we should use this opportunity to convert from Subversion to Git (within the same Sourceforge setup). I just took some pleasure in removing passivetex, Vesta, tei-emacs, javalib, and XSLT 1.0 TEI stylesheets from Sourceforge, and taking them off to Github. It leaves the room a little bare, but all the better for that. The conversion from SVN to Git is surprisingly (or not) easy. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Mar 12 19:40:56 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:40:56 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <E1C03CFA-BA4B-435D-B182-E8AAA0FB514B@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F7032.9050201@kcl.ac.uk> <E1C03CFA-BA4B-435D-B182-E8AAA0FB514B@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <513FBD08.9000300@ultraslavonic.info> Sebastian, could you update any relevant links on the following pages? http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Vesta http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/TEIEmacs http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Tei-xsl On 3/12/13 7:06 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Some would argue we should use this opportunity to convert from Subversion to Git > (within the same Sourceforge setup). > > I just took some pleasure in removing passivetex, Vesta, tei-emacs, javalib, and > XSLT 1.0 TEI stylesheets from Sourceforge, and taking them off to Github. It > leaves the room a little bare, but all the better for that. > > The conversion from SVN to Git is surprisingly (or not) easy. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 05:09:03 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:09:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513FBD08.9000300@ultraslavonic.info> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F7032.9050201@kcl.ac.uk> <E1C03CFA-BA4B-435D-B182-E8AAA0FB514B@it.ox.ac.uk> <513FBD08.9000300@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5140422F.8080604@it.ox.ac.uk> Dear Council, I've just sent a warning message to TEI-L announcing that I'll push the button at 10am and that they should submit tracker items or commit to the repository during that time. -James On 12/03/13 23:40, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Sebastian, could you update any relevant links on the following pages? > > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Vesta > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/TEIEmacs > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Tei-xsl > > On 3/12/13 7:06 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> Some would argue we should use this opportunity to convert from Subversion to Git >> (within the same Sourceforge setup). >> >> I just took some pleasure in removing passivetex, Vesta, tei-emacs, javalib, and >> XSLT 1.0 TEI stylesheets from Sourceforge, and taking them off to Github. It >> leaves the room a little bare, but all the better for that. >> >> The conversion from SVN to Git is surprisingly (or not) easy. >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Research Support, IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 05:22:59 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:22:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <napoqt44q39j414rsyk3tf5y.1363130891838@email.android.com> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F7032.9050201@kcl.ac.uk>, <E1C03CFA-BA4B-435D-B182-E8AAA0FB514B@it.ox.ac.uk> <napoqt44q39j414rsyk3tf5y.1363130891838@email.android.com> Message-ID: <ff3b6210-831e-46be-8824-76fc09fe10d9@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 12 Mar 2013, at 23:28, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > I'm going to assume that we aren't switching to git as a technology for the Guidelines repo since I believe that is what we decided at our last face to face i think we decided not to switch to Github. not _quite_ the same thing. but no matter -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 05:23:55 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:23:55 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <14736EB7-889F-47F1-88B6-7FBDE9F84696@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F7032.9050201@kcl.ac.uk>, <E1C03CFA-BA4B-435D-B182-E8AAA0FB514B@it.ox.ac.uk> <napoqt44q39j414rsyk3tf5y.1363130891838@email.android.com> <14736EB7-889F-47F1-88B6-7FBDE9F84696@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <514045AB.8080500@it.ox.ac.uk> On 13/03/13 09:22, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 12 Mar 2013, at 23:28, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: > >> I'm going to assume that we aren't switching to git as a technology for the Guidelines repo since I believe that is what we decided at our last face to face > > i think we decided not to switch to Github. not _quite_ the same thing. but no matter Possibly. But let's not do it _today_ regardless and separate it from all talk of migration of the SF site. ;-) -James > > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Research Support, IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 05:37:30 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 09:37:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <513FBD08.9000300@ultraslavonic.info> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F7032.9050201@kcl.ac.uk> <E1C03CFA-BA4B-435D-B182-E8AAA0FB514B@it.ox.ac.uk> <513FBD08.9000300@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <66230477-8C5E-472B-B75D-9624AA5922BD@it.ox.ac.uk> On 12 Mar 2013, at 23:40, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > Sebastian, could you update any relevant links on the following pages? > > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Vesta > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/TEIEmacs > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Tei-xsl yes, made some minimal needed changes to these pages. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 06:06:54 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 10:06:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <514045AB.8080500@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F7032.9050201@kcl.ac.uk>, <E1C03CFA-BA4B-435D-B182-E8AAA0FB514B@it.ox.ac.uk> <napoqt44q39j414rsyk3tf5y.1363130891838@email.android.com> <14736EB7-889F-47F1-88B6-7FBDE9F84696@it.ox.ac.uk> <514045AB.8080500@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51404FBE.4040302@it.ox.ac.uk> Just to let you know I did a SVN repository 'tag' to mark this point in the repository and have clicked the button so the TEI project is upgrading. -James On 13/03/13 09:23, James Cummings wrote: > On 13/03/13 09:22, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 12 Mar 2013, at 23:28, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> >> wrote: >> >>> I'm going to assume that we aren't switching to git as a technology for the Guidelines repo since I believe that is what we decided at our last face to face >> >> i think we decided not to switch to Github. not _quite_ the same thing. but no matter > > Possibly. But let's not do it _today_ regardless and separate it > from all talk of migration of the SF site. ;-) > > -James > >> >> >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Research Support, IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 06:25:01 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 10:25:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <51404FBE.4040302@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F7032.9050201@kcl.ac.uk>, <E1C03CFA-BA4B-435D-B182-E8AAA0FB514B@it.ox.ac.uk> <napoqt44q39j414rsyk3tf5y.1363130891838@email.android.com> <14736EB7-889F-47F1-88B6-7FBDE9F84696@it.ox.ac.uk> <514045AB.8080500@it.ox.ac.uk> <51404FBE.4040302@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <514053FD.2010506@it.ox.ac.uk> The upgrade has now completed. -James On 13/03/13 10:06, James Cummings wrote: > > Just to let you know I did a SVN repository 'tag' to mark this > point in the repository and have clicked the button so the TEI > project is upgrading. > > -James > > > On 13/03/13 09:23, James Cummings wrote: >> On 13/03/13 09:22, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> >>> On 12 Mar 2013, at 23:28, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm going to assume that we aren't switching to git as a technology for the Guidelines repo since I believe that is what we decided at our last face to face >>> >>> i think we decided not to switch to Github. not _quite_ the same thing. but no matter >> >> Possibly. But let's not do it _today_ regardless and separate it >> from all talk of migration of the SF site. ;-) >> >> -James >> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sebastian Rahtz >>> http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz >>> Director (Research) of Academic IT >>> University of Oxford IT Services >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>> >> >> > > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Research Support, IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 06:26:09 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 10:26:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <514053FD.2010506@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F7032.9050201@kcl.ac.uk>, <E1C03CFA-BA4B-435D-B182-E8AAA0FB514B@it.ox.ac.uk> <napoqt44q39j414rsyk3tf5y.1363130891838@email.android.com> <14736EB7-889F-47F1-88B6-7FBDE9F84696@it.ox.ac.uk> <514045AB.8080500@it.ox.ac.uk> <51404FBE.4040302@it.ox.ac.uk> <514053FD.2010506@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <7864d89a-043b-4ebf-81f5-e7f95dd3493d@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 13 Mar 2013, at 10:25, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > The upgrade has now completed. the SVN migration is still running, isnt it? that gives a later message -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 06:27:06 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 10:27:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge Upgrade In-Reply-To: <49170E3D-7B95-44FE-A24F-BE4E325B0163@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <513F18B5.2070005@kcl.ac.uk> <513F37D1.7080403@ultraslavonic.info> <513F3B3B.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> <513F3C04.4070100@ultraslavonic.info> <513F428F.7040703@kcl.ac.uk> <513F5821.4060604@it.ox.ac.uk> <352459D2-67AA-4326-9C42-BCDE4F6BAB60@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F695A.7080808@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F69E9.8030805@kcl.ac.uk> <513F6B6A.2010901@it.ox.ac.uk> <513F7032.9050201@kcl.ac.uk>, <E1C03CFA-BA4B-435D-B182-E8AAA0FB514B@it.ox.ac.uk> <napoqt44q39j414rsyk3tf5y.1363130891838@email.android.com> <14736EB7-889F-47F1-88B6-7FBDE9F84696@it.ox.ac.uk> <514045AB.8080500@it.ox.ac.uk> <51404FBE.4040302@it.ox.ac.uk> <514053FD.2010506@it.ox.ac.uk> <49170E3D-7B95-44FE-A24F-BE4E325B0163@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5140547A.7010107@it.ox.ac.uk> On 13/03/13 10:26, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 13 Mar 2013, at 10:25, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: > >> >> The upgrade has now completed. > > > the SVN migration is still running, isnt it? that gives a later message Yes, I believe that is the case. If I go to https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/ it says that it is still importing. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Research Support, IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 07:05:06 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:05:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade Message-ID: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> the Oxford Jenkins is now running off the new SVN repo. Martin, I updated the config.xml files on SF with new paths. -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 07:34:14 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:34:14 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> On 13/03/13 11:05, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > the Oxford Jenkins is now running off the new SVN repo. > > Martin, I updated the config.xml files on SF with new paths. I've also done a few tests, checked something in to test that it works, made some admin changes on the site. (I'm not sure I understand all the new 'tools'.) Posting message back to TEI-L -James > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Research Support, IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 07:39:27 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:39:27 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> If, as I just did, you try to comment on a ticket in the new system, be warned : you now have to type your response using some ghastly nonstandard set of input conventions called "markdown". Took me three goes to get my update to a ticket to look sensible. On 13/03/13 11:34, James Cummings wrote: > On 13/03/13 11:05, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> the Oxford Jenkins is now running off the new SVN repo. >> >> Martin, I updated the config.xml files on SF with new paths. > I've also done a few tests, checked something in to test that it > works, made some admin changes on the site. (I'm not sure I > understand all the new 'tools'.) > > Posting message back to TEI-L > > -James > > >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 07:41:24 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:41:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 13/03/13 11:39, Lou Burnard wrote: > If, as I just did, you try to comment on a ticket in the new system, be > warned : you now have to type your response using some ghastly > nonstandard set of input conventions called "markdown". Took me three > goes to get my update to a ticket to look sensible. > > No, make that 4 goes. Sigh. I'm sure we'll get used to it. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 07:44:53 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:44:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <53701fb8-11c3-4d1d-ac8d-ea9319f02459@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> who feels like editing what you see at http://tei.sourceforge.net/ to get the links right? I am not sure I even remember how :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz http://www.justgiving.com/SebastianRahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 07:57:02 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:57:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <53701fb8-11c3-4d1d-ac8d-ea9319f02459@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <53701fb8-11c3-4d1d-ac8d-ea9319f02459@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5140698E.7040602@it.ox.ac.uk> On 13/03/13 11:44, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > who feels like editing what you see at http://tei.sourceforge.net/ > to get the links right? I am not sure I even remember how :-} Currently all but code repository forward to correct place, I think. I'll have a go. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Research Support, IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 08:01:43 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:01:43 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <5140698E.7040602@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <53701fb8-11c3-4d1d-ac8d-ea9319f02459@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5140698E.7040602@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51406AA7.70902@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 13/03/13 11:57, James Cummings wrote: > On 13/03/13 11:44, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> who feels like editing what you see at http://tei.sourceforge.net/ >> to get the links right? I am not sure I even remember how :-} > Currently all but code repository forward to correct place, I think. > > I'll have a go. > > -James > I just fell over the page at https://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/reviews/ -- this contains dozens of glowing reviews of the TEI, of which all but 2 or 3 are clearly produced by oppressed workers placing links to spurious unrelated commercial enterprises. Until they introduce some better spam filtering, I wonder if it might not be advisable to turn the "reviews" facility off? From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 08:26:03 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:26:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <5140698E.7040602@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <53701fb8-11c3-4d1d-ac8d-ea9319f02459@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5140698E.7040602@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5140705B.8060706@it.ox.ac.uk> I believe I have done this now, for the record: 1) I created a ssh session with sourceforge using the instructions at https://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/sourceforge/wiki/Shell%20service 2) I scp'ed the /home/project-web/tei/htdocs/teisf.zip file I'd put there previously to my machine 3) unzipped it. 4) edited the index.html including cutting and pasting in the new menu 5) changed all relative paths to be pointing to tei-c website 6) downloaded fresh copies of all css and js from tei-c website to make sure we were using the latest ones. 7) zipped it all back up, scp'ed it back to SF, and unzipped it there. Should be working if you refresh the page and see the 'last updated' date at the bottom has changed. On 13/03/13 11:57, James Cummings wrote: > On 13/03/13 11:44, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> who feels like editing what you see at http://tei.sourceforge.net/ >> to get the links right? I am not sure I even remember how :-} > > Currently all but code repository forward to correct place, I think. > > I'll have a go. > > -James > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Research Support, IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 08:41:52 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:41:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] tools on SF 'allura' Message-ID: <51407410.6010405@it.ox.ac.uk> Post migration we have a variety of options of tools at https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/admin/tools Ones which we currently have enabled (some of which maybe we should 'delete'?) are: Summary Reviews Files Feature Requests Bugs Code Support Mailing Lists [tei-ontology-sig; tei-notify; tei-choice] PRWebEmail Hosted Apps Support Requests News Discussion Cvs [out of date? should we delete?] Admin We may be able to have multiple instances of those but ones we don't have turned on are: External Link Git Mercurial SVN [I'm assuming this is an additional svn repo? since SVN doesn't appear in the list of installed things] Wiki [it was turned on, I removed it] Tickets [? not sure how this differs from fr bugs] VHOST MySQL Databases Blog Subproject I mention this because we should investigate the new options and turn on the things we want to use, and turn off those things we don't want to use. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Research Support, IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 09:01:21 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:01:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <514078A1.7000203@it.ox.ac.uk> On 13/03/13 11:41, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 13/03/13 11:39, Lou Burnard wrote: >> If, as I just did, you try to comment on a ticket in the new system, be >> warned : you now have to type your response using some ghastly >> nonstandard set of input conventions called "markdown". Took me three >> goes to get my update to a ticket to look sensible. > No, make that 4 goes. Sigh. I'm sure we'll get used to it. there is information about Markdown at: https://sourceforge.net/p/forge/documentation/markdown_syntax/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markdown You don't *have* to use markdown... do you? It is only if you want to format your ticket in something more than just plain text. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Research Support, IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 09:03:05 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 13:03:05 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <514078A1.7000203@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <514078A1.7000203@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51407909.6020108@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 13/03/13 13:01, James Cummings wrote: > You don't *have* to use markdown... do you? It is only if you > want to format your ticket in something more than just plain text. > > - Yes, I think you do. I haven't found any way of avoiding it yet anyway. I will be mostly using the ` character I think. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 10:19:07 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:19:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <5140705B.8060706@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <53701fb8-11c3-4d1d-ac8d-ea9319f02459@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5140698E.7040602@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140705B.8060706@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48818565-ce7e-42cd-a204-50a0799f5ebf@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> "Code repository" might more helpfully point at https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/11700/tree/trunk/ (as opposed to just /tree/) - branches and trunks and tags are a bit obscure for most people -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 10:21:51 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:21:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] certainty/precision Message-ID: <51408B7F.9080408@kcl.ac.uk> So on discarding my checkout of the TEI P5 SVN repo, so as to re-check out the new address, I found that I had two uncommitted files from some months ago. (I know!) I had been about to check in a couple of revisions to the examples for <certainty/> and <precision/>, but to the best of my recollection we stalled a little bit on deciding exactly how to define the @match attribute. What I seem to have been about to check in was an additional example: <exemplum xml:lang="en"> <egXML xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples"> <space quantity="4" unit="chars"> <certainty match=".." cert="medium" locus="name" assertedValue="gap"/> </space> </egXML> </exemplum> But according to what seemed to be close to a consensus on this list back in December, that @match attribute would have been incorrect, since the default target of a certainty or precision with no @target would be the parent element (or an @match pointing to an XPath relative to that parent element). I'll go back and hunt out those emails shortly, unless somebody has a clearer recollection (or a minute somewhere) that we had in fact already decided this and reopening the can of worms would just be silly. (Stop me now before I kill again...) G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 10:32:51 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:32:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <152DEFD0-7D7A-4ECD-8091-11A5A294C0D0@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <53701fb8-11c3-4d1d-ac8d-ea9319f02459@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5140698E.7040602@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140705B.8060706@it.ox.ac.uk> <152DEFD0-7D7A-4ECD-8091-11A5A294C0D0@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51408E13.3010604@it.ox.ac.uk> On 13/03/13 14:19, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > "Code repository" might more helpfully point at https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/11700/tree/trunk/ > (as opposed to just /tree/) - branches and trunks and tags are a bit obscure for most people Um pointing at 11700 would be silly wouldn't it? That is a particular revision. https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/ redirects to the most recent revision... can anyone find a way to do that but point to tree/trunk/ ? -James > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 10:36:46 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:36:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <51408E13.3010604@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <53701fb8-11c3-4d1d-ac8d-ea9319f02459@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5140698E.7040602@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140705B.8060706@it.ox.ac.uk> <152DEFD0-7D7A-4ECD-8091-11A5A294C0D0@it.ox.ac.uk> <51408E13.3010604@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <299fb3d9-fad4-4104-82bb-8c45e456a120@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 13 Mar 2013, at 14:32, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > On 13/03/13 14:19, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> "Code repository" might more helpfully point at https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/11700/tree/trunk/ >> (as opposed to just /tree/) - branches and trunks and tags are a bit obscure for most people > > Um pointing at 11700 would be silly wouldn't it? That is a particular revision. > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/ > redirects to the most recent revision... can anyone find a way to do that but point to tree/trunk/ ? > ugh, I see what you mean. thats horrible... -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Mar 13 13:03:43 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 10:03:43 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <51408E13.3010604@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <53701fb8-11c3-4d1d-ac8d-ea9319f02459@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5140698E.7040602@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140705B.8060706@it.ox.ac.uk> <152DEFD0-7D7A-4ECD-8091-11A5A294C0D0@it.ox.ac.uk> <51408E13.3010604@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5140B16F.50600@uvic.ca> This seems to work: https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/ Cheers, Martin On 13-03-13 07:32 AM, James Cummings wrote: > On 13/03/13 14:19, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> "Code repository" might more helpfully point at https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/11700/tree/trunk/ >> (as opposed to just /tree/) - branches and trunks and tags are a bit obscure for most people > > Um pointing at 11700 would be silly wouldn't it? That is a > particular revision. > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/ > redirects to the most recent revision... can anyone find a way to > do that but point to tree/trunk/ ? > > -James > >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 13 19:44:49 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 23:44:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI SF upgrade In-Reply-To: <5140B16F.50600@uvic.ca> References: <4D65A1E8-D2AB-4087-82A5-FDBA42E6B29A@it.ox.ac.uk> <51406436.8000009@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140656F.2080202@retired.ox.ac.uk> <514065E4.2080008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <53701fb8-11c3-4d1d-ac8d-ea9319f02459@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5140698E.7040602@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140705B.8060706@it.ox.ac.uk> <152DEFD0-7D7A-4ECD-8091-11A5A294C0D0@it.ox.ac.uk> <51408E13.3010604@it.ox.ac.uk> <5140B16F.50600@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51410F71.7070402@it.ox.ac.uk> On 13/03/13 17:03, Martin Holmes wrote: > This seems to work: > > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/ Indeed it does. I'll try to edit that page. -James > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-03-13 07:32 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> On 13/03/13 14:19, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> "Code repository" might more helpfully point at https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/11700/tree/trunk/ >>> (as opposed to just /tree/) - branches and trunks and tags are a bit obscure for most people >> >> Um pointing at 11700 would be silly wouldn't it? That is a >> particular revision. >> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/ >> redirects to the most recent revision... can anyone find a way to >> do that but point to tree/trunk/ ? >> >> -James >> >>> -- >>> Sebastian Rahtz >>> Director (Research) of Academic IT >>> University of Oxford IT Services >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>> >> >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Mar 14 15:01:48 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 12:01:48 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] [tei-notify] and [tei:code] Message-ID: <51421E9C.9050701@uvic.ca> I'm now getting two notifications of every commit to SVN, one headed [tei-notify] (the one I used to get), and one headed [tei:code] (which started after the upgrade). tei-notify is an SF mailing list which I could unsubscribe from: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tei-notify> That's run by Lou. But I'm not sure what the status of the new tei:code thing is. If I go here: <https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/> I see a little envelope at the top right, which has the tooltip "unsubscribe from this tool". Does anyone know if that's the thing that's generating the tei:code emails? Should we have both, or since tei:code exists, do we no longer need tei-notify? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 14 15:11:43 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 19:11:43 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [tei-notify] and [tei:code] In-Reply-To: <51421E9C.9050701@uvic.ca> References: <51421E9C.9050701@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <mako9b3ue5sp1j8i01pbkbv9.1363288300997@email.android.com> I believe it is indeed. I would say we probably don't need the tei-notify list any more. James -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: I'm now getting two notifications of every commit to SVN, one headed [tei-notify] (the one I used to get), and one headed [tei:code] (which started after the upgrade). tei-notify is an SF mailing list which I could unsubscribe from: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tei-notify> That's run by Lou. But I'm not sure what the status of the new tei:code thing is. If I go here: <https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/> I see a little envelope at the top right, which has the tooltip "unsubscribe from this tool". Does anyone know if that's the thing that's generating the tei:code emails? Should we have both, or since tei:code exists, do we no longer need tei-notify? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Mar 14 16:14:03 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:14:03 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] [tei-notify] and [tei:code] In-Reply-To: <mako9b3ue5sp1j8i01pbkbv9.1363288300997@email.android.com> References: <51421E9C.9050701@uvic.ca> <mako9b3ue5sp1j8i01pbkbv9.1363288300997@email.android.com> Message-ID: <51422F8B.3040906@uvic.ca> On 13-03-14 12:11 PM, James Cummings wrote: > I believe it is indeed. I would say we probably don't need the > tei-notify list any more. Could you test with your unprivileged user to see if you're able to subscribe to tei:code? If not, I think we do need tei-notify for any lurkers who aren't project members. Cheers, Martin > James > > > -- > Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > > Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > I'm now getting two notifications of every commit to SVN, one headed > [tei-notify] (the one I used to get), and one headed [tei:code] (which > started after the upgrade). > > tei-notify is an SF mailing list which I could unsubscribe from: > > <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tei-notify> > > That's run by Lou. > > But I'm not sure what the status of the new tei:code thing is. If I go here: > > <https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/> > > I see a little envelope at the top right, which has the tooltip > "unsubscribe from this tool". Does anyone know if that's the thing > that's generating the tei:code emails? > > Should we have both, or since tei:code exists, do we no longer need > tei-notify? > > Cheers, > Martin > > > -- > Martin Holmes > University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre > (mholmes at uvic.ca) > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Mar 14 17:25:18 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 14:25:18 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] <styleDefDecl> and @scheme Message-ID: <5142403E.3070309@uvic.ca> Hi there, A discussion in the Text Directionality Working Group has thrown up the following issue: <styleDefDecl scheme="css"> is perhaps not granular enough, in that it does not allow specification of the version of CSS in use. Would it be a good idea to add @schemeVersion so that users could specify e.g. CSS 2.1 or 3? While looking at this, I noticed that <styleDefDecl> and <rendition> both have @scheme attributes, locally defined, which have the same legal values. Shouldn't this be an attribute class? (I have a vague memory of a discussion about this before, but I can't find any trace of it; forgive me if this has already been dealt with.) Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Mar 14 17:27:02 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:27:02 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] <styleDefDecl> and @scheme In-Reply-To: <5142403E.3070309@uvic.ca> References: <5142403E.3070309@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <514240A6.7020308@ultraslavonic.info> On 3/14/2013 5:25 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > <styleDefDecl scheme="css"> is perhaps not granular enough, in that it > does not allow specification of the version of CSS in use. Would it be a > good idea to add @schemeVersion so that users could specify e.g. CSS 2.1 > or 3? +1 > While looking at this, I noticed that<styleDefDecl> and<rendition> > both have @scheme attributes, locally defined, which have the same legal > values. Shouldn't this be an attribute class? (I have a vague memory of > a discussion about this before, but I can't find any trace of it; > forgive me if this has already been dealt with.) I don't recall this, but it seems appropriate to me. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Mar 14 17:35:15 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:35:15 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] <styleDefDecl> and @scheme In-Reply-To: <514240A6.7020308@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5142403E.3070309@uvic.ca> <514240A6.7020308@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <20802.17043.565145.126974@emt.ad.brown.edu> What are the pros and cons you see of adding a new @schemVersion rather than adding "css2.1" and "css3" as values to the existing @scheme? > > <styleDefDecl scheme="css"> is perhaps not granular enough, in that > > it does not allow specification of the version of CSS in use. Would > > it be a good idea to add @schemeVersion so that users could specify > > e.g. CSS 2.1 or 3? > > +1 > > > While looking at this, I noticed that<styleDefDecl> and<rendition> > > both have @scheme attributes, locally defined, which have the same > > legal values. Shouldn't this be an attribute class? (I have a vague > > memory of a discussion about this before, but I can't find any > > trace of it; forgive me if this has already been dealt with.) > > I don't recall this, but it seems appropriate to me. From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Mar 14 18:05:47 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 15:05:47 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] <styleDefDecl> and @scheme In-Reply-To: <20802.17043.565145.126974@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <5142403E.3070309@uvic.ca> <514240A6.7020308@ultraslavonic.info> <20802.17043.565145.126974@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <514249BB.7040500@uvic.ca> On 13-03-14 02:35 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: > What are the pros and cons you see of adding a new @schemVersion > rather than adding "css2.1" and "css3" as values to the existing > @scheme? There are two cons of adding e.g. "css2.1": 1. We'd have to keep adjusting the allowed value list every time a new version of CSS begins the route to recommendation. 2. Other style languages may be added at some point, and they may have their own versions, so it makes sense to separate the versions from the family names. Cons for the new attribute are that it's a new attribute, and we have hundreds of them already. :-) Cheers, Martin >>> <styleDefDecl scheme="css"> is perhaps not granular enough, in that >>> it does not allow specification of the version of CSS in use. Would >>> it be a good idea to add @schemeVersion so that users could specify >>> e.g. CSS 2.1 or 3? >> >> +1 >> >>> While looking at this, I noticed that<styleDefDecl> and<rendition> >>> both have @scheme attributes, locally defined, which have the same >>> legal values. Shouldn't this be an attribute class? (I have a vague >>> memory of a discussion about this before, but I can't find any >>> trace of it; forgive me if this has already been dealt with.) >> >> I don't recall this, but it seems appropriate to me. -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 14 19:17:49 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 23:17:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [tei-notify] and [tei:code] In-Reply-To: <51422F8B.3040906@uvic.ca> References: <51421E9C.9050701@uvic.ca> <mako9b3ue5sp1j8i01pbkbv9.1363288300997@email.android.com> <51422F8B.3040906@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51425A9D.6010308@it.ox.ac.uk> On 14/03/13 20:14, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-03-14 12:11 PM, James Cummings wrote: >> I believe it is indeed. I would say we probably don't need the >> tei-notify list any more. > > Could you test with your unprivileged user to see if you're able to > subscribe to tei:code? If not, I think we do need tei-notify for any > lurkers who aren't project members. I have tested with my project account and subscribed to tei:code. I'll assume that I will get a notification when someone next commits something. (I'll let you know if that isn't the case.) -James > > Cheers, > Martin > >> James >> >> >> -- >> Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >> >> Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: >> I'm now getting two notifications of every commit to SVN, one headed >> [tei-notify] (the one I used to get), and one headed [tei:code] (which >> started after the upgrade). >> >> tei-notify is an SF mailing list which I could unsubscribe from: >> >> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tei-notify> >> >> That's run by Lou. >> >> But I'm not sure what the status of the new tei:code thing is. If I go here: >> >> <https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/> >> >> I see a little envelope at the top right, which has the tooltip >> "unsubscribe from this tool". Does anyone know if that's the thing >> that's generating the tei:code emails? >> >> Should we have both, or since tei:code exists, do we no longer need >> tei-notify? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> >> -- >> Martin Holmes >> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre >> (mholmes at uvic.ca) >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Mar 14 20:15:40 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:15:40 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] [tei-notify] and [tei:code] In-Reply-To: <51425A9D.6010308@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51421E9C.9050701@uvic.ca> <mako9b3ue5sp1j8i01pbkbv9.1363288300997@email.android.com> <51422F8B.3040906@uvic.ca> <51425A9D.6010308@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5142682C.5030208@uvic.ca> On 13-03-14 04:17 PM, James Cummings wrote: > On 14/03/13 20:14, Martin Holmes wrote: >> On 13-03-14 12:11 PM, James Cummings wrote: >>> I believe it is indeed. I would say we probably don't need the >>> tei-notify list any more. >> >> Could you test with your unprivileged user to see if you're able to >> subscribe to tei:code? If not, I think we do need tei-notify for any >> lurkers who aren't project members. > > I have tested with my project account and subscribed to tei:code. > I'll assume that I will get a notification when someone next > commits something. (I'll let you know if that isn't the case.) I'm testing the reverse: I've unsubscribed from the tei:code thing (I think), and I'll report back on whether I'm still getting both or either of the emails. tei-notify emails are much nicer and more detailed than the ones from tei:code. Cheers, Martin > > -James > >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >>> James >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >>> >>> Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: >>> I'm now getting two notifications of every commit to SVN, one headed >>> [tei-notify] (the one I used to get), and one headed [tei:code] (which >>> started after the upgrade). >>> >>> tei-notify is an SF mailing list which I could unsubscribe from: >>> >>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tei-notify> >>> >>> That's run by Lou. >>> >>> But I'm not sure what the status of the new tei:code thing is. If I go here: >>> >>> <https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/> >>> >>> I see a little envelope at the top right, which has the tooltip >>> "unsubscribe from this tool". Does anyone know if that's the thing >>> that's generating the tei:code emails? >>> >>> Should we have both, or since tei:code exists, do we no longer need >>> tei-notify? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Martin Holmes >>> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre >>> (mholmes at uvic.ca) >>> -- >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Mar 14 20:51:41 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 20:51:41 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: TEI Project at SourceForge; Subversion Repository; Issue trackers In-Reply-To: <5141D72F.2080800@fastmail.fm> References: <5141D72F.2080800@fastmail.fm> Message-ID: <5142709D.806@ultraslavonic.info> James (and others), Given that the IDs of tracker items were unfortunately not maintained in the upgrade, I guess we will need to keep the PURL system resolving only to tracker rather than repurposing it for the new syntax. Are we going to create a new PURL syntax that resolves to the new SF system or not bother, instead using the fairly human-friendly URLs of the new system without bothering with any sort of PURL? Did any part of the upgrade process say how long the redirects would be maintained by SourceForge? Based on that answer, do we have a sense of how much value there is in updating URLs in old TCM documents etc. to point to the new tracker URLs? That is, at some point these links will break, but it can be helpful to reconstruct a discussion to look at the ticket. On the other hand, the longer ago something was, the less likely it is that we will need to (or bother to) dig so deep. Kevin > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: TEI Project at SourceForge; Subversion Repository; Issue > trackers > Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:36:34 +0000 > From: James Cummings <James.Cummings at IT.OX.AC.UK> > > Dear TEI Community, > > The TEI Project upgrade on SourceForge is now successfully > complete. The following URLs have changed: > > The summary page is now: > https://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/ > > The SVN repository is now browsable at: > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/ > > Feature requests are now read, created, and managed at: > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/ > > and bugs at: > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/ > > There are *certainly* going to be some places on websites which > point to the wrong URLs and these will be corrected soon. Many of > the old URLs will continue to forward for some time. The ID > numbers of old tracker items are not preserved, however those > pages forward through to the new ones. > > If you have a copy of the SVN repository checked out then you can > 'switch' its location by doing: > > svn relocate <new-repo-url> > svn switch --relocate <old-repo-url> <new-repo-url> > > e.g. > svn relocate svn://svn.code.sf.net/p/tei/code/trunk > or > svn relocate https://svn.code.sf.net/p/tei/code/trunk > > or > svn switch --relocate > https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/trunk > svn://svn.code.sf.net/p/tei/code/trunk > > Or of course simply use the svn checkout code presented to you > when you go to https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/ > > If you also commit to the TEI svn repository the urls and > protocol is slightly different (svn+ssh). For more details on > repository migration please see > https://sourceforge.net/p/forge/community-docs/Repository%20Upgrade%20FAQ/ > > If you have significant problems or questions please direct them > here to the mailing list so we can answer them for everyone. > > Thanks, > > James Cummings > TEI Technical Council Chair > From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Mar 15 08:15:45 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:15:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] <styleDefDecl> and @scheme In-Reply-To: <514249BB.7040500@uvic.ca> References: <5142403E.3070309@uvic.ca> <514240A6.7020308@ultraslavonic.info> <20802.17043.565145.126974@emt.ad.brown.edu> <514249BB.7040500@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <514310F1.7090007@it.ox.ac.uk> I'd vote in favour of the new attribute, and the class. Coincidentally, the new SF site does allow *voting* on tickets. I don't think we currently have this turned on (and I've no idea how it works or what constraints there are)... Is this something we'd like to consider? -James On 14/03/13 22:05, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-03-14 02:35 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: >> What are the pros and cons you see of adding a new @schemVersion >> rather than adding "css2.1" and "css3" as values to the existing >> @scheme? > > There are two cons of adding e.g. "css2.1": > > 1. We'd have to keep adjusting the allowed value list every time a new > version of CSS begins the route to recommendation. > > 2. Other style languages may be added at some point, and they may have > their own versions, so it makes sense to separate the versions from the > family names. > > Cons for the new attribute are that it's a new attribute, and we have > hundreds of them already. :-) > > Cheers, > Martin > >>>> <styleDefDecl scheme="css"> is perhaps not granular enough, in that >>>> it does not allow specification of the version of CSS in use. Would >>>> it be a good idea to add @schemeVersion so that users could specify >>>> e.g. CSS 2.1 or 3? >>> >>> +1 >>> >>>> While looking at this, I noticed that<styleDefDecl> and<rendition> >>>> both have @scheme attributes, locally defined, which have the same >>>> legal values. Shouldn't this be an attribute class? (I have a vague >>>> memory of a discussion about this before, but I can't find any >>>> trace of it; forgive me if this has already been dealt with.) >>> >>> I don't recall this, but it seems appropriate to me. > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Fri Mar 15 08:30:43 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:30:43 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] <styleDefDecl> and @scheme In-Reply-To: <514310F1.7090007@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <5142403E.3070309@uvic.ca> <514240A6.7020308@ultraslavonic.info> <20802.17043.565145.126974@emt.ad.brown.edu> <514249BB.7040500@uvic.ca> <514310F1.7090007@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51431473.8040307@kcl.ac.uk> Agreed re new attribute, and putting @scheme in a class. I'm not sure I like the idea of "voting" as any kind of formal method of resolving tickets. The TEI Council works on more of a consensus model, not requiring unanimity by any means, but informally weighting people's objections so that if I say, "I'm a bit uncomfortable with that, but if everyone else goes for it I'll bow to the majority" a ticket can pass, but if Sebastian says, "No no no, that is abject insanity" a ticket will probably stay open until we've all discussed it some more. What would voting gain us? G On 2013-03-15 12:15, James Cummings wrote: > > I'd vote in favour of the new attribute, and the class. > > Coincidentally, the new SF site does allow *voting* on tickets. > I don't think we currently have this turned on (and I've no idea > how it works or what constraints there are)... Is this something > we'd like to consider? > > -James > > On 14/03/13 22:05, Martin Holmes wrote: >> On 13-03-14 02:35 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: >>> What are the pros and cons you see of adding a new @schemVersion >>> rather than adding "css2.1" and "css3" as values to the existing >>> @scheme? >> >> There are two cons of adding e.g. "css2.1": >> >> 1. We'd have to keep adjusting the allowed value list every time a new >> version of CSS begins the route to recommendation. >> >> 2. Other style languages may be added at some point, and they may have >> their own versions, so it makes sense to separate the versions from the >> family names. >> >> Cons for the new attribute are that it's a new attribute, and we have >> hundreds of them already. :-) >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >>>>> <styleDefDecl scheme="css"> is perhaps not granular enough, in that >>>>> it does not allow specification of the version of CSS in use. Would >>>>> it be a good idea to add @schemeVersion so that users could specify >>>>> e.g. CSS 2.1 or 3? >>>> >>>> +1 >>>> >>>>> While looking at this, I noticed that<styleDefDecl> and<rendition> >>>>> both have @scheme attributes, locally defined, which have the same >>>>> legal values. Shouldn't this be an attribute class? (I have a vague >>>>> memory of a discussion about this before, but I can't find any >>>>> trace of it; forgive me if this has already been dealt with.) >>>> >>>> I don't recall this, but it seems appropriate to me. >> > > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Mar 15 08:37:12 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:37:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] <styleDefDecl> and @scheme In-Reply-To: <51431473.8040307@kcl.ac.uk> References: <5142403E.3070309@uvic.ca> <514240A6.7020308@ultraslavonic.info> <20802.17043.565145.126974@emt.ad.brown.edu> <514249BB.7040500@uvic.ca> <514310F1.7090007@it.ox.ac.uk> <51431473.8040307@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <514315F8.80400@it.ox.ac.uk> On 15/03/13 12:30, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Agreed re new attribute, and putting @scheme in a class. > > I'm not sure I like the idea of "voting" as any kind of formal method of > resolving tickets. The TEI Council works on more of a consensus model, > not requiring unanimity by any means, but informally weighting people's > objections so that if I say, "I'm a bit uncomfortable with that, but if > everyone else goes for it I'll bow to the majority" a ticket can pass, > but if Sebastian says, "No no no, that is abject insanity" a ticket will > probably stay open until we've all discussed it some more. > > What would voting gain us? I think there probably isn't a way to restrict it to developers as well. So, on feature requests for example, the community could be motivated to vote for a particular one that they feel is important. So If we did enable it, I think it would only be as a measure of popularity of a particular feature request... for seting priorities. But for the reasons you mentioned I'm a tad reluctant to do so for any serious decision making process. there are cases where voting is appropriate. (Do you want solution A or solution B?) But not usually in the decision to implement or not... -James > > G > > On 2013-03-15 12:15, James Cummings wrote: >> >> I'd vote in favour of the new attribute, and the class. >> >> Coincidentally, the new SF site does allow *voting* on tickets. >> I don't think we currently have this turned on (and I've no idea >> how it works or what constraints there are)... Is this something >> we'd like to consider? >> >> -James >> >> On 14/03/13 22:05, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> On 13-03-14 02:35 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: >>>> What are the pros and cons you see of adding a new @schemVersion >>>> rather than adding "css2.1" and "css3" as values to the existing >>>> @scheme? >>> >>> There are two cons of adding e.g. "css2.1": >>> >>> 1. We'd have to keep adjusting the allowed value list every time a new >>> version of CSS begins the route to recommendation. >>> >>> 2. Other style languages may be added at some point, and they may have >>> their own versions, so it makes sense to separate the versions from the >>> family names. >>> >>> Cons for the new attribute are that it's a new attribute, and we have >>> hundreds of them already. :-) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>>>>> <styleDefDecl scheme="css"> is perhaps not granular enough, in that >>>>>> it does not allow specification of the version of CSS in use. Would >>>>>> it be a good idea to add @schemeVersion so that users could specify >>>>>> e.g. CSS 2.1 or 3? >>>>> >>>>> +1 >>>>> >>>>>> While looking at this, I noticed that<styleDefDecl> and<rendition> >>>>>> both have @scheme attributes, locally defined, which have the same >>>>>> legal values. Shouldn't this be an attribute class? (I have a vague >>>>>> memory of a discussion about this before, but I can't find any >>>>>> trace of it; forgive me if this has already been dealt with.) >>>>> >>>>> I don't recall this, but it seems appropriate to me. >>> >> >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Mar 15 08:44:00 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 05:44:00 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] <styleDefDecl> and @scheme In-Reply-To: <51431473.8040307@kcl.ac.uk> References: <5142403E.3070309@uvic.ca> <514240A6.7020308@ultraslavonic.info> <20802.17043.565145.126974@emt.ad.brown.edu> <514249BB.7040500@uvic.ca> <514310F1.7090007@it.ox.ac.uk> <51431473.8040307@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51431790.7040007@uvic.ca> On 13-03-15 05:30 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Agreed re new attribute, and putting @scheme in a class. > > I'm not sure I like the idea of "voting" as any kind of formal method of > resolving tickets. The TEI Council works on more of a consensus model, > not requiring unanimity by any means, but informally weighting people's > objections so that if I say, "I'm a bit uncomfortable with that, but if > everyone else goes for it I'll bow to the majority" a ticket can pass, > but if Sebastian says, "No no no, that is abject insanity" a ticket will > probably stay open until we've all discussed it some more. > > What would voting gain us? We often do vote informally (+1 etc.), so it might be helpful to be able to have those quick polls recorded on the tickets. I think if people voted against, we'd be reluctant to implement anything. Can we change our votes after we've cast them? Cheers, Martin > > G > > On 2013-03-15 12:15, James Cummings wrote: >> I'd vote in favour of the new attribute, and the class. >> >> Coincidentally, the new SF site does allow *voting* on tickets. >> I don't think we currently have this turned on (and I've no idea >> how it works or what constraints there are)... Is this something >> we'd like to consider? >> >> -James >> >> On 14/03/13 22:05, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> On 13-03-14 02:35 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: >>>> What are the pros and cons you see of adding a new @schemVersion >>>> rather than adding "css2.1" and "css3" as values to the existing >>>> @scheme? >>> There are two cons of adding e.g. "css2.1": >>> >>> 1. We'd have to keep adjusting the allowed value list every time a new >>> version of CSS begins the route to recommendation. >>> >>> 2. Other style languages may be added at some point, and they may have >>> their own versions, so it makes sense to separate the versions from the >>> family names. >>> >>> Cons for the new attribute are that it's a new attribute, and we have >>> hundreds of them already. :-) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>>>>> <styleDefDecl scheme="css"> is perhaps not granular enough, in that >>>>>> it does not allow specification of the version of CSS in use. Would >>>>>> it be a good idea to add @schemeVersion so that users could specify >>>>>> e.g. CSS 2.1 or 3? >>>>> +1 >>>>> >>>>>> While looking at this, I noticed that<styleDefDecl> and<rendition> >>>>>> both have @scheme attributes, locally defined, which have the same >>>>>> legal values. Shouldn't this be an attribute class? (I have a vague >>>>>> memory of a discussion about this before, but I can't find any >>>>>> trace of it; forgive me if this has already been dealt with.) >>>>> I don't recall this, but it seems appropriate to me. >> From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Mar 15 10:57:04 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 07:57:04 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Tag names in tickets Message-ID: <514336C0.1090904@uvic.ca> I notice that the only way to get actual tag names to show up in tickets now is to surround the text with a line of tildes: ~~~~~~~~ @scheme on <rendition> and <styleDefDecl>... ~~~~~~~~ Sigh. This is not an improvement. I think I'm just going to be starting and ending every ticket and comment with lines of tildes. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Fri Mar 15 11:37:42 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul Schaffner) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:37:42 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Tag names in tickets In-Reply-To: <514336C0.1090904@uvic.ca> References: <514336C0.1090904@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <1363361862.17766.140661204803333.3D4A3BFC@webmail.messagingengine.com> What happens if you use a non-standard element delimiter? E.g. {rendition} or ???rendition? or ?rendition? or ?rendition? ? Ever looking for the kludgy workaround with unforseeable consequences. pfs On Fri, Mar 15, 2013, at 10:57, Martin Holmes wrote: > I notice that the only way to get actual tag names to show up in tickets > now is to surround the text with a line of tildes: > > ~~~~~~~~ > @scheme on <rendition> and <styleDefDecl>... > ~~~~~~~~ > > Sigh. This is not an improvement. I think I'm just going to be starting > and ending every ticket and comment with lines of tildes. > > Cheers, > Martin > -- > Martin Holmes > University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre > (mholmes at uvic.ca) > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived -- Paul Schaffner Digital Library Production Service PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Mar 15 12:21:24 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:21:24 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Tag names in tickets In-Reply-To: <1363361862.17766.140661204803333.3D4A3BFC@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <514336C0.1090904@uvic.ca> <1363361862.17766.140661204803333.3D4A3BFC@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <51434A84.8050701@uvic.ca> On 13-03-15 08:37 AM, Paul Schaffner wrote: > What happens if you use a non-standard element delimiter? E.g. > {rendition} or ???rendition? or ?rendition? or ?rendition? ? > Ever looking for the kludgy workaround with unforseeable > consequences. pfs I don't know, but I have discovered that I can edit my original ticket, which is very handy. One thing to watch: if you use tildes, you have to supply line-breaks manually. When you edit a ticket, a comment seems to be automatically added consisting of a diff between the original ticket and the edited version. I deleted it in this case, but in cases where there is some discussion leading to the revision of the original ticket, this might be a handy tracking mechanism. I think it will also allow us to work more consistently on one ticket rather than giving up on a complicated one that's changed direction too much, and generating a new one, as we've often done in the past. I suppose I'm going to get used to this, after some grumbling. It is nice to be able to put in links. Cheers, Martin > On Fri, Mar 15, 2013, at 10:57, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I notice that the only way to get actual tag names to show up in tickets >> now is to surround the text with a line of tildes: >> >> ~~~~~~~~ >> @scheme on <rendition> and <styleDefDecl>... >> ~~~~~~~~ >> >> Sigh. This is not an improvement. I think I'm just going to be starting >> and ending every ticket and comment with lines of tildes. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> -- >> Martin Holmes >> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre >> (mholmes at uvic.ca) >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Mar 15 19:12:48 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 23:12:48 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Tag names in tickets In-Reply-To: <51434A84.8050701@uvic.ca> References: <514336C0.1090904@uvic.ca> <1363361862.17766.140661204803333.3D4A3BFC@webmail.messagingengine.com> <51434A84.8050701@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5143AAF0.2080404@retired.ox.ac.uk> I think I pointed out a few days ago that the easiest way to get round this is to escape the bits of markup using back ticks. so if you just type a ` at the start of your text (and another at the end) you don't need to worry. On 15/03/13 16:21, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-03-15 08:37 AM, Paul Schaffner wrote: >> What happens if you use a non-standard element delimiter? E.g. >> {rendition} or ???rendition? or ?rendition? or ?rendition? ? >> Ever looking for the kludgy workaround with unforseeable >> consequences. pfs > I don't know, but I have discovered that I can edit my original ticket, > which is very handy. One thing to watch: if you use tildes, you have to > supply line-breaks manually. When you edit a ticket, a comment seems to > be automatically added consisting of a diff between the original ticket > and the edited version. I deleted it in this case, but in cases where > there is some discussion leading to the revision of the original ticket, > this might be a handy tracking mechanism. I think it will also allow us > to work more consistently on one ticket rather than giving up on a > complicated one that's changed direction too much, and generating a new > one, as we've often done in the past. > > I suppose I'm going to get used to this, after some grumbling. It is > nice to be able to put in links. > > Cheers, > Martin > >> On Fri, Mar 15, 2013, at 10:57, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> I notice that the only way to get actual tag names to show up in tickets >>> now is to surround the text with a line of tildes: >>> >>> ~~~~~~~~ >>> @scheme on <rendition> and <styleDefDecl>... >>> ~~~~~~~~ >>> >>> Sigh. This is not an improvement. I think I'm just going to be starting >>> and ending every ticket and comment with lines of tildes. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> -- >>> Martin Holmes >>> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre >>> (mholmes at uvic.ca) >>> -- >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sat Mar 16 22:42:16 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 22:42:16 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: TEI Project at SourceForge; Subversion Repository; Issue trackers In-Reply-To: <5142709D.806@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5141D72F.2080800@fastmail.fm> <5142709D.806@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51452D88.1070506@ultraslavonic.info> I have added these questions to the end of: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E0aV-E75VOLE_TCrEXVVqaez-9zlyDcpCTeF5QP2BPI/edit Above that, I have listed documents I have found on www.tei-c.org that need to be updated following the migration. I've also started making a table showing old and new URLs. I sense this is overkill, but right now I'm not sure I would correctly update all of the URLs. Frankly, I would prefer if someone closer to them migration went through to update these pages since I'm afraid of getting some pieces wrong. (Maybe James or Martin since they have access to the TEI website?) K. On 3/14/13 8:51 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > James (and others), > > Given that the IDs of tracker items were unfortunately not maintained in > the upgrade, I guess we will need to keep the PURL system resolving only > to tracker rather than repurposing it for the new syntax. Are we going > to create a new PURL syntax that resolves to the new SF system or not > bother, instead using the fairly human-friendly URLs of the new system > without bothering with any sort of PURL? > > Did any part of the upgrade process say how long the redirects would be > maintained by SourceForge? Based on that answer, do we have a sense of > how much value there is in updating URLs in old TCM documents etc. to > point to the new tracker URLs? That is, at some point these links will > break, but it can be helpful to reconstruct a discussion to look at the > ticket. On the other hand, the longer ago something was, the less > likely it is that we will need to (or bother to) dig so deep. > > Kevin > >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Re: TEI Project at SourceForge; Subversion Repository; Issue >> trackers >> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:36:34 +0000 >> From: James Cummings <James.Cummings at IT.OX.AC.UK> >> >> Dear TEI Community, >> >> The TEI Project upgrade on SourceForge is now successfully >> complete. The following URLs have changed: >> >> The summary page is now: >> https://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/ >> >> The SVN repository is now browsable at: >> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/ >> >> Feature requests are now read, created, and managed at: >> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/ >> >> and bugs at: >> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/ >> >> There are *certainly* going to be some places on websites which >> point to the wrong URLs and these will be corrected soon. Many of >> the old URLs will continue to forward for some time. The ID >> numbers of old tracker items are not preserved, however those >> pages forward through to the new ones. >> >> If you have a copy of the SVN repository checked out then you can >> 'switch' its location by doing: >> >> svn relocate <new-repo-url> >> svn switch --relocate <old-repo-url> <new-repo-url> >> >> e.g. >> svn relocate svn://svn.code.sf.net/p/tei/code/trunk >> or >> svn relocate https://svn.code.sf.net/p/tei/code/trunk >> >> or >> svn switch --relocate >> https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/trunk >> svn://svn.code.sf.net/p/tei/code/trunk >> >> Or of course simply use the svn checkout code presented to you >> when you go to https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/ >> >> If you also commit to the TEI svn repository the urls and >> protocol is slightly different (svn+ssh). For more details on >> repository migration please see >> https://sourceforge.net/p/forge/community-docs/Repository%20Upgrade%20FAQ/ >> >> >> If you have significant problems or questions please direct them >> here to the mailing list so we can answer them for everyone. >> >> Thanks, >> >> James Cummings >> TEI Technical Council Chair >> From mholmes at uvic.ca Sat Mar 16 23:16:48 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2013 20:16:48 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: TEI Project at SourceForge; Subversion Repository; Issue trackers In-Reply-To: <51452D88.1070506@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5141D72F.2080800@fastmail.fm> <5142709D.806@ultraslavonic.info> <51452D88.1070506@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <514535A0.8030602@uvic.ca> On 13-03-16 07:42 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > I have added these questions to the end of: > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E0aV-E75VOLE_TCrEXVVqaez-9zlyDcpCTeF5QP2BPI/edit > > Above that, I have listed documents I have found on www.tei-c.org that > need to be updated following the migration. I've also started making a > table showing old and new URLs. I sense this is overkill, but right now > I'm not sure I would correctly update all of the URLs. Frankly, I would > prefer if someone closer to them migration went through to update these > pages since I'm afraid of getting some pieces wrong. (Maybe James or > Martin since they have access to the TEI website?) I'm happy to work on that. Cheers, Martin > > K. > > On 3/14/13 8:51 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> James (and others), >> >> Given that the IDs of tracker items were unfortunately not maintained in >> the upgrade, I guess we will need to keep the PURL system resolving only >> to tracker rather than repurposing it for the new syntax. Are we going >> to create a new PURL syntax that resolves to the new SF system or not >> bother, instead using the fairly human-friendly URLs of the new system >> without bothering with any sort of PURL? >> >> Did any part of the upgrade process say how long the redirects would be >> maintained by SourceForge? Based on that answer, do we have a sense of >> how much value there is in updating URLs in old TCM documents etc. to >> point to the new tracker URLs? That is, at some point these links will >> break, but it can be helpful to reconstruct a discussion to look at the >> ticket. On the other hand, the longer ago something was, the less >> likely it is that we will need to (or bother to) dig so deep. >> >> Kevin >> >>> -------- Original Message -------- >>> Subject: Re: TEI Project at SourceForge; Subversion Repository; Issue >>> trackers >>> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 11:36:34 +0000 >>> From: James Cummings <James.Cummings at IT.OX.AC.UK> >>> >>> Dear TEI Community, >>> >>> The TEI Project upgrade on SourceForge is now successfully >>> complete. The following URLs have changed: >>> >>> The summary page is now: >>> https://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/ >>> >>> The SVN repository is now browsable at: >>> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/ >>> >>> Feature requests are now read, created, and managed at: >>> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/ >>> >>> and bugs at: >>> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/ >>> >>> There are *certainly* going to be some places on websites which >>> point to the wrong URLs and these will be corrected soon. Many of >>> the old URLs will continue to forward for some time. The ID >>> numbers of old tracker items are not preserved, however those >>> pages forward through to the new ones. >>> >>> If you have a copy of the SVN repository checked out then you can >>> 'switch' its location by doing: >>> >>> svn relocate <new-repo-url> >>> svn switch --relocate <old-repo-url> <new-repo-url> >>> >>> e.g. >>> svn relocate svn://svn.code.sf.net/p/tei/code/trunk >>> or >>> svn relocate https://svn.code.sf.net/p/tei/code/trunk >>> >>> or >>> svn switch --relocate >>> https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/trunk >>> svn://svn.code.sf.net/p/tei/code/trunk >>> >>> Or of course simply use the svn checkout code presented to you >>> when you go to https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/ >>> >>> If you also commit to the TEI svn repository the urls and >>> protocol is slightly different (svn+ssh). For more details on >>> repository migration please see >>> https://sourceforge.net/p/forge/community-docs/Repository%20Upgrade%20FAQ/ >>> >>> >>> If you have significant problems or questions please direct them >>> here to the mailing list so we can answer them for everyone. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> James Cummings >>> TEI Technical Council Chair >>> From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Mar 17 17:31:55 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:31:55 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml: the missing chapter In-Reply-To: <510D9D6F.4090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <510D8E45.5000104@ultraslavonic.info> <510D9C03.2030206@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510D9D6F.4090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5146364B.2010102@ultraslavonic.info> To close the loop (you all know how much I like to do that), I now think it would be better to leave this unfinished work as is and focus instead, as we've previously discussed, on incorporating relevant portions of the Best Practices for TEI in Libraries into the Guidelines. Still, since we have both Specs/ and Specs-Unused/ , what if we create a Guidelines-Unused/ to complement Guidelines/ ? (And then we'd move SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml to there.) --Kevin On 2/2/13 6:12 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > Ah, found it. > > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm30.xml (Minutes of > council meeting in Berlin, April 2007 at which all P5 chapters were > reviewed) > > > "SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml > > MD recommends chapter be dropped. JW (co-author of the re-write) > concurs. JW was assigned to draft a few paragraphs discussing the > relationship between the TEI Header and other standards (including MARC > and Dublin Core) in general terms, without detailed mappings. > > Action 52: JW TRAC http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac/TEIP5/ticket/336 . > Draft paras on metadata standards 2007-05-05 > Action 53: SB put JW paras in appropriate place at end of HD 2007-05-12" > > > > On 02/02/13 23:06, Lou Burnard wrote: >> Well, here's my understanding of the history: >> >> Chapter SH was originally called "The Independent Header" and was >> drafted for P3 by Rich Giordano. This survived into P4, but in P5 was >> removed. In 2005 or so, when Natasha and John were both on Council, they >> volunteered to rework it as a survey of the way libraries in practice >> mapped TEI Header elements to other metadata standards. There are a few >> mentions of this work as being ongoing in the minutes of that year -- >> not having all the minutes to hand I am not sure what happened to this >> work -- but doubt John can. >> >> >> >> On 02/02/13 22:08, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> Folks, >>> >>> I just came across Source/Guidelines/en/SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml . >>> From comments in the file, it looks like John Walsh, Natasha Smith, >>> and others from the SIG on Libraries were once involved in drafting this >>> but it never made it into the Guidelines. >>> >>> Does anyone know whether this was rejected for inclusion in the >>> Guidelines, or was the work just never completed? It includes a number >>> of things that made their way in some form into the latest revision of >>> the Best Practices for TEI in Libraries (though I have quibbles with how >>> many things are stated in "SH"), and I was thinking that since we >>> decided to incorporate things from the Best Practices into the >>> Guidelines, it seems like a good way to start would be to get SH into a >>> good enough form for inclusion in the Guidelines. I'm willing to take >>> the lead on that and ask for feedback on my revised draft from the SIG >>> on Libraries. >>> >>> Objections? Does anyone have notes on previous objections to the text, >>> things that were meant to be incorporated, etc.? >>> >>> --Kevin >>> >> > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Mar 17 17:51:09 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:51:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml: the missing chapter In-Reply-To: <5146364B.2010102@ultraslavonic.info> References: <510D8E45.5000104@ultraslavonic.info> <510D9C03.2030206@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510D9D6F.4090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5146364B.2010102@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51463ACD.2000806@retired.ox.ac.uk> Or you could just rename "Specs-Unused "to "nowDefunct" and keep all the old superceded garbage in there. On 17/03/13 21:31, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > To close the loop (you all know how much I like to do that), I now think > it would be better to leave this unfinished work as is and focus > instead, as we've previously discussed, on incorporating relevant > portions of the Best Practices for TEI in Libraries into the Guidelines. > > Still, since we have both Specs/ and Specs-Unused/ , what if we create a > Guidelines-Unused/ to complement Guidelines/ ? (And then we'd move > SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml to there.) > > --Kevin > > On 2/2/13 6:12 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> Ah, found it. >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm30.xml (Minutes of >> council meeting in Berlin, April 2007 at which all P5 chapters were >> reviewed) >> >> >> "SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml >> >> MD recommends chapter be dropped. JW (co-author of the re-write) >> concurs. JW was assigned to draft a few paragraphs discussing the >> relationship between the TEI Header and other standards (including MARC >> and Dublin Core) in general terms, without detailed mappings. >> >> Action 52: JW TRAC http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac/TEIP5/ticket/336 . >> Draft paras on metadata standards 2007-05-05 >> Action 53: SB put JW paras in appropriate place at end of HD 2007-05-12" >> >> >> >> On 02/02/13 23:06, Lou Burnard wrote: >>> Well, here's my understanding of the history: >>> >>> Chapter SH was originally called "The Independent Header" and was >>> drafted for P3 by Rich Giordano. This survived into P4, but in P5 was >>> removed. In 2005 or so, when Natasha and John were both on Council, they >>> volunteered to rework it as a survey of the way libraries in practice >>> mapped TEI Header elements to other metadata standards. There are a few >>> mentions of this work as being ongoing in the minutes of that year -- >>> not having all the minutes to hand I am not sure what happened to this >>> work -- but doubt John can. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 02/02/13 22:08, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>> Folks, >>>> >>>> I just came across Source/Guidelines/en/SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml . >>>> From comments in the file, it looks like John Walsh, Natasha Smith, >>>> and others from the SIG on Libraries were once involved in drafting this >>>> but it never made it into the Guidelines. >>>> >>>> Does anyone know whether this was rejected for inclusion in the >>>> Guidelines, or was the work just never completed? It includes a number >>>> of things that made their way in some form into the latest revision of >>>> the Best Practices for TEI in Libraries (though I have quibbles with how >>>> many things are stated in "SH"), and I was thinking that since we >>>> decided to incorporate things from the Best Practices into the >>>> Guidelines, it seems like a good way to start would be to get SH into a >>>> good enough form for inclusion in the Guidelines. I'm willing to take >>>> the lead on that and ask for feedback on my revised draft from the SIG >>>> on Libraries. >>>> >>>> Objections? Does anyone have notes on previous objections to the text, >>>> things that were meant to be incorporated, etc.? >>>> >>>> --Kevin >>>> From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Mar 17 20:03:40 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:03:40 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Updates to TCW 17 and to SF pre-configured searches Message-ID: <514659DC.5010002@uvic.ca> Hi there, I've updated TCW 17: <http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw17.html> which contains a list of links to bugs and frs in various stages. In the process, I've created pre-configured searches on the Bugs and Feature Requests pages: <http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/> <http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/> so you can see these lists even if you can't remember where TCW 17 is. This will be needed for the triage ahead of our meeting in Providence. If you can think of any other preconfigured searches that you'd like to see there, let me know. You can also bookmark a URL for your own custom searches; for instance, this shows all open bugs assigned to me: <https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/search/?q=status%3Aopen+AND+assigned_to_s%3Amartindholmes> Cheers, Martin From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Mar 17 20:15:46 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:15:46 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Status of tei-emacs Message-ID: <51465CB2.7090804@uvic.ca> Hi all, Our "Building a release" document (TCW 22) contains this: <quote> The TEI maintains a number of distinct packages on Sourceforge. The source for all of them is maintained in a Subversion repository. The main published packages are : P5 The main TEI P5 source Roma The web application Stylesheets The stylesheet library tei-emacs TEI customisation of emacs </quote> I see that the tei-emacs package is still one of the downloads on our download page, among others, but that it hasn't been modified since 2007. Is this another package that ought to be moved out to GitHub? Whether or not that's so, is there any good reason for it to be mentioned in TCW 22? Cheers, Martin From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Mar 17 20:29:08 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:29:08 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Testing tagging under the Allura system Message-ID: <51465FD4.4040000@uvic.ca> Our TCW 22 (Building a TEI Release) document includes the following instructions for creating a tag: <quote> Every time a new release is made, a "tag" is created consisting of a complete copy of the P5 tree at release time. You can do this from the command line on your own computer. This is how to do it: svn copy https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/trunk/P5 https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/tags/P5_release_X.X.X -m "Tagging the X.X.X release of P5." where X.X.X is your new release. Supply your SourceForge credentials when prompted. </quote> I suspect this will no longer work, or if it does for the moment, it'll stop working in the future. I want to test what should be the new equivalent some time in the next few days, so if you see me creating a unnecessary tag, that's what's happening; I'll delete it when I'm sure I've got the new syntax and paths right. Cheers, Martin From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Mar 17 20:36:26 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 00:36:26 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Testing tagging under the Allura system In-Reply-To: <51465FD4.4040000@uvic.ca> References: <51465FD4.4040000@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5146618A.3070608@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi Martin, I created one just prior to migration... but aside from needing entirely new URLs why do you think the tagging won't work? I see the tags at https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/tags/ -James On 18/03/13 00:29, Martin Holmes wrote: > Our TCW 22 (Building a TEI Release) document includes the following > instructions for creating a tag: > > <quote> > Every time a new release is made, a "tag" is created consisting of a > complete copy of the P5 tree at release time. You can do this from the > command line on your own computer. This is how to do it: > > svn copy https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/trunk/P5 > https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/tags/P5_release_X.X.X -m > "Tagging the X.X.X release of P5." > > where X.X.X is your new release. Supply your SourceForge credentials > when prompted. > </quote> > > I suspect this will no longer work, or if it does for the moment, it'll > stop working in the future. I want to test what should be the new > equivalent some time in the next few days, so if you see me creating a > unnecessary tag, that's what's happening; I'll delete it when I'm sure > I've got the new syntax and paths right. > > Cheers, > Martin > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Mar 17 20:48:21 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2013 17:48:21 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Testing tagging under the Allura system In-Reply-To: <5146618A.3070608@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51465FD4.4040000@uvic.ca> <5146618A.3070608@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51466455.2090308@uvic.ca> On 13-03-17 05:36 PM, James Cummings wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > I created one just prior to migration... but aside from needing > entirely new URLs why do you think the tagging won't work? > > I see the tags at https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/tags/ I'm presuming the URLs will change, but I think we're now suppsed to connect using svn+ssh for editing, aren't we? I don't know whether https will still work for committing but the message from SF after the switch suggested that editors use svn+ssh, and I presume that's different from https. But I'm quite ignorant here, so anyone who knows better, please correct me. I don't think we'll know for sure what will work until we try it, though, so that's why I'm warning everyone that you'll probably see me trying things and screwing them up till I get it right. Actually, I could test quietly using one of my own projects to which no-one else ever contributes, which is also on SF. That might be simpler. Cheers, Martin > > -James > > > On 18/03/13 00:29, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Our TCW 22 (Building a TEI Release) document includes the following >> instructions for creating a tag: >> >> <quote> >> Every time a new release is made, a "tag" is created consisting of a >> complete copy of the P5 tree at release time. You can do this from the >> command line on your own computer. This is how to do it: >> >> svn copy https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/trunk/P5 >> https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/tags/P5_release_X.X.X -m >> "Tagging the X.X.X release of P5." >> >> where X.X.X is your new release. Supply your SourceForge credentials >> when prompted. >> </quote> >> >> I suspect this will no longer work, or if it does for the moment, it'll >> stop working in the future. I want to test what should be the new >> equivalent some time in the next few days, so if you see me creating a >> unnecessary tag, that's what's happening; I'll delete it when I'm sure >> I've got the new syntax and paths right. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> > > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 18 03:25:14 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 07:25:14 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Status of tei-emacs In-Reply-To: <51465CB2.7090804@uvic.ca> References: <51465CB2.7090804@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <E36E891A-B27B-4DAE-AC28-1281649257D9@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Tei-emacs has indeed moved to github, and should be removed from here I think. It's just a skeleton now, not a windows distro as it used to be Carved in stone on my iPad On 18 Mar 2013, at 01:15, "Martin Holmes" <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > Hi all, > > Our "Building a release" document (TCW 22) contains this: > > <quote> > The TEI maintains a number of distinct packages on Sourceforge. The > source for all of them is maintained in a Subversion repository. The > main published packages are : > > P5 > The main TEI P5 source > Roma > The web application > Stylesheets > The stylesheet library > tei-emacs > TEI customisation of emacs > </quote> > > I see that the tei-emacs package is still one of the downloads on our > download page, among others, but that it hasn't been modified since > 2007. Is this another package that ought to be moved out to GitHub? > > Whether or not that's so, is there any good reason for it to be > mentioned in TCW 22? > > Cheers, > Martin > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 18 07:13:21 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:13:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [tei-notify] and [tei:code] In-Reply-To: <51425A9D.6010308@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51421E9C.9050701@uvic.ca> <mako9b3ue5sp1j8i01pbkbv9.1363288300997@email.android.com> <51422F8B.3040906@uvic.ca> <51425A9D.6010308@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5146F6D1.8070403@it.ox.ac.uk> For the record, although I was able to 'subscribe' to the tei:code 'tool' on new sourceforge with a non-developer account, I am not receiving message from it. (Whereas my developer account gets two notifications, one from tei-notify, one from tei:code). Thought I'd mention it. On holiday for a week, -James On 14/03/13 23:17, James Cummings wrote: > On 14/03/13 20:14, Martin Holmes wrote: >> On 13-03-14 12:11 PM, James Cummings wrote: >>> I believe it is indeed. I would say we probably don't need the >>> tei-notify list any more. >> >> Could you test with your unprivileged user to see if you're able to >> subscribe to tei:code? If not, I think we do need tei-notify for any >> lurkers who aren't project members. > > I have tested with my project account and subscribed to tei:code. > I'll assume that I will get a notification when someone next > commits something. (I'll let you know if that isn't the case.) > > -James > >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >>> James >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >>> >>> Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: >>> I'm now getting two notifications of every commit to SVN, one headed >>> [tei-notify] (the one I used to get), and one headed [tei:code] (which >>> started after the upgrade). >>> >>> tei-notify is an SF mailing list which I could unsubscribe from: >>> >>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tei-notify> >>> >>> That's run by Lou. >>> >>> But I'm not sure what the status of the new tei:code thing is. If I go here: >>> >>> <https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/> >>> >>> I see a little envelope at the top right, which has the tooltip >>> "unsubscribe from this tool". Does anyone know if that's the thing >>> that's generating the tei:code emails? >>> >>> Should we have both, or since tei:code exists, do we no longer need >>> tei-notify? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Martin Holmes >>> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre >>> (mholmes at uvic.ca) >>> -- >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> > > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Research Support, IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Mon Mar 18 07:14:47 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:14:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Testing tagging under the Allura system In-Reply-To: <51466455.2090308@uvic.ca> References: <51465FD4.4040000@uvic.ca> <5146618A.3070608@it.ox.ac.uk> <51466455.2090308@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5146F727.60208@kcl.ac.uk> https does still work for committing as well as checking out. (I think SF prefer us to use SSH, but I'm using HTTPS as before, partly because it works better with TortoiseSVN.) G On 2013-03-18 00:48, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-03-17 05:36 PM, James Cummings wrote: >> >> Hi Martin, >> >> I created one just prior to migration... but aside from needing >> entirely new URLs why do you think the tagging won't work? >> >> I see the tags at https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/tags/ > > I'm presuming the URLs will change, but I think we're now suppsed to > connect using svn+ssh for editing, aren't we? I don't know whether https > will still work for committing but the message from SF after the switch > suggested that editors use svn+ssh, and I presume that's different from > https. > > But I'm quite ignorant here, so anyone who knows better, please correct > me. I don't think we'll know for sure what will work until we try it, > though, so that's why I'm warning everyone that you'll probably see me > trying things and screwing them up till I get it right. > > Actually, I could test quietly using one of my own projects to which > no-one else ever contributes, which is also on SF. That might be simpler. > > Cheers, > Martin > >> >> -James >> >> >> On 18/03/13 00:29, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> Our TCW 22 (Building a TEI Release) document includes the following >>> instructions for creating a tag: >>> >>> <quote> >>> Every time a new release is made, a "tag" is created consisting of a >>> complete copy of the P5 tree at release time. You can do this from the >>> command line on your own computer. This is how to do it: >>> >>> svn copy https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/trunk/P5 >>> https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/tags/P5_release_X.X.X -m >>> "Tagging the X.X.X release of P5." >>> >>> where X.X.X is your new release. Supply your SourceForge credentials >>> when prompted. >>> </quote> >>> >>> I suspect this will no longer work, or if it does for the moment, it'll >>> stop working in the future. I want to test what should be the new >>> equivalent some time in the next few days, so if you see me creating a >>> unnecessary tag, that's what's happening; I'll delete it when I'm sure >>> I've got the new syntax and paths right. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >> >> -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Mar 18 08:39:27 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:39:27 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] [tei-notify] and [tei:code] In-Reply-To: <5146F6D1.8070403@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51421E9C.9050701@uvic.ca> <mako9b3ue5sp1j8i01pbkbv9.1363288300997@email.android.com> <51422F8B.3040906@uvic.ca> <51425A9D.6010308@it.ox.ac.uk> <5146F6D1.8070403@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51470AFF.6020906@uvic.ca> On 13-03-18 04:13 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > For the record, although I was able to 'subscribe' to the > tei:code 'tool' on new sourceforge with a non-developer account, > I am not receiving message from it. (Whereas my developer account > gets two notifications, one from tei-notify, one from tei:code). I've added this to our migration document so it gets followed up. I'll test with another unprivileged account to confirm your experience. Cheers, Martin > Thought I'd mention it. > > On holiday for a week, > > -James > > On 14/03/13 23:17, James Cummings wrote: >> On 14/03/13 20:14, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> On 13-03-14 12:11 PM, James Cummings wrote: >>>> I believe it is indeed. I would say we probably don't need the >>>> tei-notify list any more. >>> >>> Could you test with your unprivileged user to see if you're able to >>> subscribe to tei:code? If not, I think we do need tei-notify for any >>> lurkers who aren't project members. >> >> I have tested with my project account and subscribed to tei:code. >> I'll assume that I will get a notification when someone next >> commits something. (I'll let you know if that isn't the case.) >> >> -James >> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>>> James >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >>>> >>>> Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: >>>> I'm now getting two notifications of every commit to SVN, one headed >>>> [tei-notify] (the one I used to get), and one headed [tei:code] (which >>>> started after the upgrade). >>>> >>>> tei-notify is an SF mailing list which I could unsubscribe from: >>>> >>>> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tei-notify> >>>> >>>> That's run by Lou. >>>> >>>> But I'm not sure what the status of the new tei:code thing is. If I go here: >>>> >>>> <https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/> >>>> >>>> I see a little envelope at the top right, which has the tooltip >>>> "unsubscribe from this tool". Does anyone know if that's the thing >>>> that's generating the tei:code emails? >>>> >>>> Should we have both, or since tei:code exists, do we no longer need >>>> tei-notify? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Martin Holmes >>>> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre >>>> (mholmes at uvic.ca) >>>> -- >>>> tei-council mailing list >>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>>> >>>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >>> >> >> > > From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Mar 18 08:40:39 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 05:40:39 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Testing tagging under the Allura system In-Reply-To: <5146F727.60208@kcl.ac.uk> References: <51465FD4.4040000@uvic.ca> <5146618A.3070608@it.ox.ac.uk> <51466455.2090308@uvic.ca> <5146F727.60208@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51470B47.4070700@uvic.ca> On 13-03-18 04:14 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > https does still work for committing as well as checking out. (I think > SF prefer us to use SSH, but I'm using HTTPS as before, partly because > it works better with TortoiseSVN.) That's good -- I can just change the URLs in the document then. Cheers, Martin > > G > > On 2013-03-18 00:48, Martin Holmes wrote: >> On 13-03-17 05:36 PM, James Cummings wrote: >>> >>> Hi Martin, >>> >>> I created one just prior to migration... but aside from needing >>> entirely new URLs why do you think the tagging won't work? >>> >>> I see the tags at https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/tags/ >> >> I'm presuming the URLs will change, but I think we're now suppsed to >> connect using svn+ssh for editing, aren't we? I don't know whether https >> will still work for committing but the message from SF after the switch >> suggested that editors use svn+ssh, and I presume that's different from >> https. >> >> But I'm quite ignorant here, so anyone who knows better, please correct >> me. I don't think we'll know for sure what will work until we try it, >> though, so that's why I'm warning everyone that you'll probably see me >> trying things and screwing them up till I get it right. >> >> Actually, I could test quietly using one of my own projects to which >> no-one else ever contributes, which is also on SF. That might be simpler. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >>> >>> -James >>> >>> >>> On 18/03/13 00:29, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> Our TCW 22 (Building a TEI Release) document includes the following >>>> instructions for creating a tag: >>>> >>>> <quote> >>>> Every time a new release is made, a "tag" is created consisting of a >>>> complete copy of the P5 tree at release time. You can do this from the >>>> command line on your own computer. This is how to do it: >>>> >>>> svn copy https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/trunk/P5 >>>> https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/tags/P5_release_X.X.X -m >>>> "Tagging the X.X.X release of P5." >>>> >>>> where X.X.X is your new release. Supply your SourceForge credentials >>>> when prompted. >>>> </quote> >>>> >>>> I suspect this will no longer work, or if it does for the moment, it'll >>>> stop working in the future. I want to test what should be the new >>>> equivalent some time in the next few days, so if you see me creating a >>>> unnecessary tag, that's what's happening; I'll delete it when I'm sure >>>> I've got the new syntax and paths right. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>> >>> > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 18 11:34:15 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 15:34:15 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] jinkins art tha sleepin thar below? Message-ID: <514733F7.7090401@retired.ox.ac.uk> I just committed a slew of trivial updates to P5 tagdocs, some of which needless to say contained daft typos and infelicities. I was a bit surprised to receive no email from either British or Canadian jenkins (or none yet anyway) is that cos they are not running, cos i have dropped off their radar, or is it some other inscrutable consequence of the sf change? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 18 12:05:00 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 16:05:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] jinkins art tha sleepin thar below? In-Reply-To: <514733F7.7090401@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <514733F7.7090401@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <53777fae-3c18-4fdf-a460-78ec6baa6bb3@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> He is very chatty with me and Martin. Need to see why he don't talk to you Carved in stone on my iPad On 18 Mar 2013, at 16:34, "Lou Burnard" <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > I just committed a slew of trivial updates to P5 tagdocs, some of which > needless to say contained daft typos and infelicities. I was a bit > surprised to receive no email from either British or Canadian jenkins > (or none yet anyway) > > is that cos they are not running, cos i have dropped off their radar, or > is it some other inscrutable consequence of the sf change? > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Mar 18 14:57:50 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 11:57:50 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] jinkins art tha sleepin thar below? In-Reply-To: <53777fae-3c18-4fdf-a460-78ec6baa6bb3@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <514733F7.7090401@retired.ox.ac.uk> <53777fae-3c18-4fdf-a460-78ec6baa6bb3@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <514763AE.2030504@uvic.ca> My Jenkins he say: "Failed to send e-mail to louburnard because no e-mail address is known, and no default e-mail domain is configured" I'll have to look into that. I think it's almost certainly a side-effect of the Allura changes, but I'm not sure how yet. Cheers, Martin On 13-03-18 09:05 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > He is very chatty with me and Martin. Need to see why he don't talk to you > > Carved in stone on my iPad > > On 18 Mar 2013, at 16:34, "Lou Burnard" <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> I just committed a slew of trivial updates to P5 tagdocs, some of which >> needless to say contained daft typos and infelicities. I was a bit >> surprised to receive no email from either British or Canadian jenkins >> (or none yet anyway) >> >> is that cos they are not running, cos i have dropped off their radar, or >> is it some other inscrutable consequence of the sf change? >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Mar 18 15:20:10 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 12:20:10 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] jinkins art tha sleepin thar below? In-Reply-To: <53777fae-3c18-4fdf-a460-78ec6baa6bb3@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <514733F7.7090401@retired.ox.ac.uk> <53777fae-3c18-4fdf-a460-78ec6baa6bb3@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <514768EA.6070400@uvic.ca> I think I fixed mine; we'll see next time a broken commit goes in. Sebastian's seems to be already fixed, because a message went to Lou from Oxford after his test commit. For the record, I had to set "Default user e-mail suffix" to @sourceforge.net. I don't know why that was suddenly necessary, but I'll have to add it into the Jenkins build script. Cheers, Martin On 13-03-18 09:05 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > He is very chatty with me and Martin. Need to see why he don't talk to you > > Carved in stone on my iPad > > On 18 Mar 2013, at 16:34, "Lou Burnard" <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> I just committed a slew of trivial updates to P5 tagdocs, some of which >> needless to say contained daft typos and infelicities. I was a bit >> surprised to receive no email from either British or Canadian jenkins >> (or none yet anyway) >> >> is that cos they are not running, cos i have dropped off their radar, or >> is it some other inscrutable consequence of the sf change? >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 18 15:30:50 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2013 19:30:50 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] jinkins art tha sleepin thar below? In-Reply-To: <514768EA.6070400@uvic.ca> References: <514733F7.7090401@retired.ox.ac.uk> <53777fae-3c18-4fdf-a460-78ec6baa6bb3@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>, <514768EA.6070400@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <A9F346FF-4671-44AA-AE4B-E4BDFFC74428@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I did the same suffix thing, but Lou says it didn't work. H mmm. Carved in stone on my iPad On 18 Mar 2013, at 20:20, "Martin Holmes" <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > I think I fixed mine; we'll see next time a broken commit goes in. > Sebastian's seems to be already fixed, because a message went to Lou > from Oxford after his test commit. For the record, I had to set "Default > user e-mail suffix" to @sourceforge.net. I don't know why that was > suddenly necessary, but I'll have to add it into the Jenkins build script. > > From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Mar 19 08:42:49 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 05:42:49 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Duplicate pages on tei-c Message-ID: <51485D49.8090805@uvic.ca> Hi there, This page: <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> looks like a variant of this page: <http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw06.xml> In addition, the first one (get.xml) doesn't seem to be accessible from the menu system. Could we remove the first one, or does anyone know of links to it, or a need for it? Cheers, Martin From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Mar 19 09:50:08 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 09:50:08 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Duplicate pages on tei-c In-Reply-To: <51485D49.8090805@uvic.ca> References: <51485D49.8090805@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51486D10.4030101@ultraslavonic.info> Martin, to clarify, when you say that get.xml isn't accessible from the menu system, you mean that you can't find any page on www.tei-c.org from which you can reach this page using either the drop-down navbar at the top or the links on the left of any pages? If so, I should note that as a general rule, not all pages are in fact accessible this way. For example, http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/ lists 24 documents, but they're not listed to the left. I will, however, note that http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml is linked in the text of http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/index.xml . So is http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get_p5.xml . There seems to be significant overlap in them. Every time I sit down to think about how to merge them, I recoil at the prospect and decide to put it off to another day. --K. On 3/19/2013 8:42 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > Hi there, > > This page: > > <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> > > looks like a variant of this page: > > <http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw06.xml> > > In addition, the first one (get.xml) doesn't seem to be accessible from > the menu system. > > Could we remove the first one, or does anyone know of links to it, or a > need for it? > > Cheers, > Martin From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Mar 19 11:15:57 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 08:15:57 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Duplicate pages on tei-c In-Reply-To: <51486D10.4030101@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51485D49.8090805@uvic.ca> <51486D10.4030101@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5148812D.1090000@uvic.ca> On 13-03-19 06:50 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Martin, to clarify, when you say that get.xml isn't accessible from the > menu system, you mean that you can't find any page on www.tei-c.org from > which you can reach this page using either the drop-down navbar at the > top or the links on the left of any pages? If so, I should note that as > a general rule, not all pages are in fact accessible this way. For > example, http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/ lists 24 > documents, but they're not listed to the left. > > I will, however, note that http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml is > linked in the text of http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/index.xml . So > is http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get_p5.xml . There seems to be > significant overlap in them. Every time I sit down to think about how > to merge them, I recoil at the prospect and decide to put it off to > another day. I know, my heart is sinking too. But I think it's worth doing. I was thinking that we might have a single page with two sections: Checking out code as a user Checking out code as a contributor The page could live at the current get.xml location, and TCW 6 might then be retired. We have contributors who are not on Council, and I don't really think that the instructions for contributors should be different depending on whether they're on Council or not, so one page outside the Council area would presumably be sufficient. We also need to look at the status of the other projects listed on that page. Sebastian has already said that we can remove tei-emacs from documentation like this. It looks to me as though TEI-OO is now obsolete as well; Sebastian has written good working ODT converters (no longer specific to Open Office), and has completed the "plans for some filters for Microsoft Word". Shall we just remove that one? Cheers, Martin > > --K. > > On 3/19/2013 8:42 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> This page: >> >> <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> >> >> looks like a variant of this page: >> >> <http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw06.xml> >> >> In addition, the first one (get.xml) doesn't seem to be accessible from >> the menu system. >> >> Could we remove the first one, or does anyone know of links to it, or a >> need for it? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Mar 20 08:44:33 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 05:44:33 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] URL in get.xml doesn't go anywhere Message-ID: <5149AF31.5010305@uvic.ca> Hi there, The page at <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> links to this URL: <http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/> which no longer seems to point to anything. Is there another URL that should work, or should that whole section be deleted? Cheers, Martin From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Mar 20 08:47:14 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 05:47:14 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] URL in get.xml doesn't go anywhere In-Reply-To: <5149AF31.5010305@uvic.ca> References: <5149AF31.5010305@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5149AFD2.3080000@uvic.ca> This one links to a page, but the page doesn't seem relevant to the link in get.xml: <p>This complex customization is given as an example of how the Oxford University Computing Services use the TEI for authoring its website. See <ref target="http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/">http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/</ref> to see documents validated against schemas generated from this ODD.</p> Is there a better candidate for this link? Cheers, Martin On 13-03-20 05:44 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > Hi there, > > The page at > > <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> > > links to this URL: > > <http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/> > > which no longer seems to point to anything. Is there another URL that > should work, or should that whole section be deleted? > > Cheers, > Martin > From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Mar 20 20:11:42 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 17:11:42 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] TEI news feeds from SourceForge Message-ID: <514A503E.1040006@uvic.ca> Two automated feeds from SourceForge are transcluded on the Guidelines index page at P5/Source/Guidelines/index.xml: <p>Sourceforge summary: <ptr type="transclude" rend="rss2" target="http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projsummary.php?group_id=106328"/></p> <p>Sourceforge file releases: <ptr type="transclude" rend="rssbrief" target="http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projfiles.php?group_id=106328"/> </p> They both still work: <http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projsummary.php?group_id=106328> <http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projfiles.php?group_id=106328> but they'll presumably stop working at some point because they're in the old URL format. Has anyone come across equivalents in the new URL format that could replace them? Actually, I can't find any definite evidence that that index.xml page is actually used anywhere. Is it? If not, can I just nuke it? Cheers, mARTIN -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Mar 21 08:40:31 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 05:40:31 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] install-generated-packages-on-website.sh... In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A136C76@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <514A5225.3040702@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A136C76@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <514AFFBF.9040505@uvic.ca> HI all, There's a script in SVN called install-generated-packages-on-website.sh: <http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/11738/tree/trunk/P5/Utilities/install-generated-packages-on-website.sh> It was written by Sebastian about two years ago. The script is not mentioned in TCW 22: <http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw22.xml> so I don't think it's used for anything. Sebastian and I think it was superceded by tei_install.sh, written about the same time. Unless anyone objects, I propose removing it from SVN to avoid confusion. Silence = assent, as usual. Cheers, Martin On 13-03-21 04:59 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> is that script still current? surely superseded? > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Mar 21 09:43:41 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 09:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] TEI news feeds from SourceForge In-Reply-To: <514A503E.1040006@uvic.ca> References: <514A503E.1040006@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1303210942180.83605@lister.ei.virginia.edu> I don't believe that the SVN source file P5/Source/Guidelines/index.xml is currently being used anywhere as part of the TEI website. Looks like a version of it exists at http://projects.oucs.ox.ac.uk/teiweb/P5/ but that's an outdated page. I would think that if Sebastian agrees it could be deleted. David On Wed, 20 Mar 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: > Two automated feeds from SourceForge are transcluded on the Guidelines > index page at P5/Source/Guidelines/index.xml: > > <p>Sourceforge summary: > <ptr type="transclude" rend="rss2" > target="http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projsummary.php?group_id=106328"/></p> > > <p>Sourceforge file releases: > <ptr type="transclude" rend="rssbrief" > target="http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projfiles.php?group_id=106328"/> > </p> > > They both still work: > > <http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projsummary.php?group_id=106328> > > <http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projfiles.php?group_id=106328> > > but they'll presumably stop working at some point because they're in the > old URL format. Has anyone come across equivalents in the new URL format > that could replace them? > > Actually, I can't find any definite evidence that that index.xml page is > actually used anywhere. Is it? If not, can I just nuke it? > > Cheers, > mARTIN > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400314, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4314 USA Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 21 10:10:28 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 14:10:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI news feeds from SourceForge In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1303210942180.83605@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <514A503E.1040006@uvic.ca> <alpine.OSX.2.00.1303210942180.83605@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1375B6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 21 Mar 2013, at 13:43, David Sewell <dsewell at virginia.edu> wrote: > I don't believe that the SVN source file P5/Source/Guidelines/index.xml is > currently being used anywhere as part of the TEI website. Looks like a version > of it exists at http://projects.oucs.ox.ac.uk/teiweb/P5/ but that's an outdated > page. I would think that if Sebastian agrees it could be deleted. > i would guess this is an ancient artefac which can be zapped -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Mar 21 20:33:33 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 20:33:33 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] TEI news feeds from SourceForge In-Reply-To: <514A503E.1040006@uvic.ca> References: <514A503E.1040006@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <514BA6DD.2040804@ultraslavonic.info> On 3/20/13 8:11 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > Two automated feeds from SourceForge are transcluded on the Guidelines > index page at P5/Source/Guidelines/index.xml: > > <p>Sourceforge summary: > <ptr type="transclude" rend="rss2" > target="http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projsummary.php?group_id=106328"/></p> > > <p>Sourceforge file releases: > <ptr type="transclude" rend="rssbrief" > target="http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projfiles.php?group_id=106328"/> > </p> > > They both still work: > > <http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projsummary.php?group_id=106328> > > <http://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_projfiles.php?group_id=106328> > > but they'll presumably stop working at some point because they're in the > old URL format. Has anyone come across equivalents in the new URL format > that could replace them? For the record, the new URLs for the "project summary" and "file releases" are available by clicking on the XML chicklets at: https://sourceforge.net/export/rss2_project.php?group_id=106328 (which you can find from http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/ per my partial implementation of https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/292/ .) --Kevin From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Mar 24 14:59:59 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 11:59:59 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] TEI CD? Message-ID: <514F4D2F.1080105@uvic.ca> Hi all, This page: <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get_p5.xml> says this: "The entire set of TEI materials is also available on CD-ROM at TEI events." This is presumably obsolete, isn't it? Cheers, Martin From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Mar 24 15:07:10 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 19:07:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI CD? In-Reply-To: <514F4D2F.1080105@uvic.ca> References: <514F4D2F.1080105@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1632A1@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 24 Mar 2013, at 18:59, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get_p5.xml> > > says this: > > "The entire set of TEI materials is also available on CD-ROM at TEI events." > > This is presumably obsolete, isn't it? certainly is. its been some years since we did that. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Mar 24 15:07:51 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2013 19:07:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI CD? In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1632A1@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <514F4D2F.1080105@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1632A1@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <514F4F07.6030505@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 24/03/13 19:07, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > certainly is. its been some years since we did that. I remember when this was all fields... From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 08:18:22 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:18:22 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] change breaks DTD generation Message-ID: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> Maybe it's just me, but it seems that the change introducedwith commit r11676 on 6 march by rahtz in order to "allow data.language to have an empty value, as per XML spec" has a somewhat undesirable effect on DTD generation. Namely my local build fails when I try generating the exemplars quite rightly protesting that "()" is not valid as the second part of an ATTDEF declaration thusly Entity: line 1: parser error : Content error in the external subset %att.global.attributes; ^ Entity: line 7: xml:lang () #IMPLIED ^ make[1]: *** [test-extns] Error 1 This provokes several questions in my mind not least a) what the devil to do about it? b) is mr jenkins falling down on the job again -- no sign of this being a problem in the last good build ? From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Mar 25 08:49:38 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:49:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] change breaks DTD generation In-Reply-To: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <BDE04748DD16EA4C88CC19A69299A14A02402E@Buri.uvic.ca> Are you building against the latest version of the Stylesheets? You should be able to do that like this: XSL=http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/Stylesheets/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/dist/xml/tei/stylesheet/ Cheers, Martin ________________________________________ From: tei-council-bounces at lists.village.Virginia.EDU [tei-council-bounces at lists.village.Virginia.EDU] on behalf of Lou Burnard [lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk] Sent: March 25, 2013 5:18 AM To: tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU Subject: [tei-council] change breaks DTD generation Maybe it's just me, but it seems that the change introducedwith commit r11676 on 6 march by rahtz in order to "allow data.language to have an empty value, as per XML spec" has a somewhat undesirable effect on DTD generation. Namely my local build fails when I try generating the exemplars quite rightly protesting that "()" is not valid as the second part of an ATTDEF declaration thusly Entity: line 1: parser error : Content error in the external subset %att.global.attributes; ^ Entity: line 7: xml:lang () #IMPLIED ^ make[1]: *** [test-extns] Error 1 This provokes several questions in my mind not least a) what the devil to do about it? b) is mr jenkins falling down on the job again -- no sign of this being a problem in the last good build ? -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 08:51:30 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:51:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] change breaks DTD generation In-Reply-To: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <8c6b6545-e215-449a-93c6-ca7c102519d2@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 25 Mar 2013, at 12:18, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Maybe it's just me, but it seems that the change introducedwith commit > r11676 on 6 march by rahtz in order to "allow data.language to have an > empty value, as per XML spec" has a somewhat undesirable effect on DTD > generation. Namely my local build fails when I try generating the > exemplars quite rightly protesting that "()" is not valid as the second > part of an ATTDEF declaration thusly > > Entity: line 1: parser error : Content error in the external subset > %att.global.attributes; > ^ > Entity: line 7: > xml:lang () #IMPLIED > ^ > make[1]: *** [test-extns] Error 1 > > This provokes several questions in my mind not least > > a) what the devil to do about it? > > b) is mr jenkins falling down on the job again -- no sign of this being > a problem in the last good build ? > if neither Mr J, nor I on my desktop, see the error then something odd at your end? I am rerunning from clean here to check. what is the context of that error, i.e. which exemplar is it working on? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 08:52:33 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:52:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] change breaks DTD generation In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A56C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A56C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51504891.5030203@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 25/03/13 12:51, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > > if neither Mr J, nor I on my desktop, see the error then something > odd at your end? always a possibility! > I am rerunning from clean here to check. what is the context of that error, > i.e. which exemplar is it working on? bare From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 09:01:52 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 13:01:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] change breaks DTD generation In-Reply-To: <51504891.5030203@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A56C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51504891.5030203@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <c125ef64-21cd-4405-acac-377ed05a7c44@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> I see a clean run from bare, sorry, see below. does your log differ in any way? ANT_OPTS="-Xss2m -Xmx752m" ant -lib /usr/share/java/jing.jar:/usr/share/saxon/saxon9he.jar -Dtrang=/usr/share/trang/trang.jar -Dprofile=tei -DdefaultSource=`(cd ..; pwd)`/p5subset.xml -DXSL=/usr/share/xml/tei/stylesheet -Dbasedir=`pwd` -f ../Test/antruntest.xml -Doutputname=tei_bare -Dtestfile=tei_bare.tei -DoddFile=tei_bare.odd validateodd compileodd rng dtd isoschematron validateschematron cleanup Buildfile: /Volumes/Repo/TEI/Sourceforge/tei-code/P5/Test/antruntest.xml validateodd: [echo] Validate tei_bare.odd as ODD compileodd: [echo] Do ODD processing using /usr/share/saxon/saxon9he.jar and source /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/p5subset.xml [xslt] Processing /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_bare.odd to /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_bare.odd.compiled [xslt] Loading stylesheet /usr/share/xml/tei/stylesheet/odds2/odd2odd.xsl Warning: XML resolver not found; external catalogs will be ignored rng: [echo] XSLT generate RELAXNG tei_bare.rng [xslt] Processing /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_bare.odd.compiled to /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_bare.rng [xslt] Loading stylesheet /usr/share/xml/tei/stylesheet/profiles/tei/relaxng/to.xsl Warning: XML resolver not found; external catalogs will be ignored dtd: [echo] XSLT generate DTD tei_bare.dtd [xslt] Processing /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_bare.odd.compiled to /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_bare.dtd [xslt] Loading stylesheet /usr/share/xml/tei/stylesheet/profiles/tei/dtd/to.xsl Warning: XML resolver not found; external catalogs will be ignored isoschematron: [echo] XSLT generate ISO schematron tei_bare.isosch from compiled ODD [xslt] Processing /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_bare.odd.compiled to /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_bare.isosch [xslt] Loading stylesheet /usr/share/xml/tei/stylesheet/odds2/extract-isosch.xsl [xslt] Processing /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_bare.isosch to /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_bare.xsl [xslt] Loading stylesheet /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Utilities/iso_schematron_message_xslt2.xsl validateschematron: [echo] Validate using Schematron [xslt] Processing /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_bare.tei to /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/stdout [xslt] Loading stylesheet /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_bare.xsl cleanup: [delete] Deleting: /Users/rahtz/TEI/Sourceforge/trunk/P5/Exemplars/tei_bare.odd.compiled BUILD SUCCESSFUL Total time: 5 seconds trang -o disable-abstract-elements tei_bare.rng tei_bare.xsd trang tei_bare.rng tei_bare.rnc Validate XSD using Jing ... perl -p -i -e 's+http://www.w3.org/2004/10/xml.xsd+xml.xsd+' tei_bare.xsd test -f teix.xsd && perl -p -i -e 's+<.*\"xml.xsd\".*++' teix.xsd make[1]: [tei_bare.dtd] Error 1 (ignored) test -f spec.xsd && perl -p -i -e 's+<.*\"xml.xsd\".*++' spec.xsd make[1]: [tei_bare.dtd] Error 1 (ignored) test -f teix.xsd && mv teix.xsd tei_bare.teix.xsd make[1]: [tei_bare.dtd] Error 1 (ignored) test -f tei_bare.teix.xsd && perl -p -i -e "s/teix.xsd/tei_bare.teix.xsd/" tei_bare.xsd make[1]: [tei_bare.dtd] Error 1 (ignored) jing tei_bare.xsd tei_bare.tei Validate using xmllint for DTD xmllint --noout --dtdvalid tei_bare.dtd tei_bare.tei -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 09:02:03 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 13:02:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] change breaks DTD generation In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A56C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A56C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51504ACB.6020005@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 25/03/13 12:51, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I am rerunning from clean here to check. what is the context of that > error, i.e. which exemplar is it working on? Aha, curioser and curioser. It failed against bare the first time, but now I look at my second attempt more closely I see it's failing on extns.xml BUILD: Testing files which demonstrate user extensions xmllint --noout --valid extns.xml Entity: line 1: parser error : NmToken expected in ATTLIST enumeration %att.global.attributes; ^ Entity: line 7: xml:lang () #IMPLIED ^ Entity: line 1: parser error : Content error in the external subset %att.global.attributes; ^ Entity: line 7: xml:lang () #IMPLIED > -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of > Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 09:05:10 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 13:05:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] change breaks DTD generation In-Reply-To: <51504ACB.6020005@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A56C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51504ACB.6020005@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5020ec92-96b9-4074-9657-930c46377aa4@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> pursuing the obvious here, but this is after a "make clean", and with updated XSL from SVN? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 09:05:37 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 13:05:37 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] change breaks DTD generation In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A77E@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A56C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51504ACB.6020005@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A77E@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51504BA1.1010402@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 25/03/13 13:05, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > pursuing the obvious here, but this is after a "make clean", and with updated XSL from SVN? didnt do a make clean, but did update XSL yes From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Mar 25 12:31:45 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:31:45 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] change breaks DTD generation In-Reply-To: <51504BA1.1010402@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A56C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51504ACB.6020005@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A77E@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51504BA1.1010402@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51507BF1.5000404@uvic.ca> Isn't the Stylesheets build actually broken right now? If you make install the Stylesheets, won't you install a broken set? Cheers, Martin On 13-03-25 06:05 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 25/03/13 13:05, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> pursuing the obvious here, but this is after a "make clean", and with updated XSL from SVN? > > didnt do a make clean, but did update XSL yes > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 12:32:44 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 16:32:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] change breaks DTD generation In-Reply-To: <51507BF1.5000404@uvic.ca> References: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A56C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51504ACB.6020005@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A77E@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51504BA1.1010402@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51507BF1.5000404@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51507C2C.6040309@retired.ox.ac.uk> Not sfaics. I did a make clean and tried the build again and everything was tickety-boo. On 25/03/13 16:31, Martin Holmes wrote: > Isn't the Stylesheets build actually broken right now? If you make > install the Stylesheets, won't you install a broken set? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-03-25 06:05 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> On 25/03/13 13:05, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> pursuing the obvious here, but this is after a "make clean", and with updated XSL from SVN? >> didnt do a make clean, but did update XSL yes >> >> From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 12:38:57 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 16:38:57 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] change breaks DTD generation In-Reply-To: <51507BF1.5000404@uvic.ca> References: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A56C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51504ACB.6020005@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A77E@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51504BA1.1010402@retired.ox.ac.uk>,<51507BF1.5000404@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <74707AA5-56CA-472E-9D92-F50E11D229B5@it.ox.ac.uk> Technically yes. Buts it all around note processing so you can ignore Sent from my iPad On 25 Mar 2013, at 16:31, "Martin Holmes" <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > Isn't the Stylesheets build actually broken right now? If you make > install the Stylesheets, won't you install a broken set? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-03-25 06:05 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> On 25/03/13 13:05, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> pursuing the obvious here, but this is after a "make clean", and with updated XSL from SVN? >> >> didnt do a make clean, but did update XSL yes > > -- > Martin Holmes > University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre > (mholmes at uvic.ca) > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Mar 25 12:41:14 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:41:14 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] change breaks DTD generation In-Reply-To: <51507C2C.6040309@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5150408E.10407@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A56C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51504ACB.6020005@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16A77E@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51504BA1.1010402@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51507BF1.5000404@uvic.ca> <51507C2C.6040309@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51507E2A.4010600@uvic.ca> It's definitely broken on Jinks: diff -r -x .svn files/index.html expected-results/testnotes/index.html 40c40 < <div class="note" id="Note1"><span class="noteLabel">Note: </span>A free-standing note </div> --- > <span class="note" id="Note1"><span class="noteLabel">Note: </span>A free-standing note </span> make[1]: *** [test-html] Error 1 make[1]: Leaving directory `/srv/hudson/jobs/Stylesheets/workspace/Test' make: *** [test] Error 2 Build step 'Execute shell' marked build as failure but it looks like it's just an expected-results problem. Cheers, Martin On 13-03-25 09:32 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > Not sfaics. I did a make clean and tried the build again and everything > was tickety-boo. > > > On 25/03/13 16:31, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Isn't the Stylesheets build actually broken right now? If you make >> install the Stylesheets, won't you install a broken set? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-03-25 06:05 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>> On 25/03/13 13:05, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>> pursuing the obvious here, but this is after a "make clean", and with updated XSL from SVN? >>> didnt do a make clean, but did update XSL yes >>> >>> > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Mar 25 12:55:17 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 09:55:17 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Setting up chapters for translation Message-ID: <51508175.2040101@uvic.ca> Hi all, You've probably been following the discussion on the board-council list on translations of the Guidelines. The topic has split into two threads, really: a philosophical discussion and a practical one about how we might manage the translation of individual chapters and their components, and track subsequent changes. I think the latter topic should move over to the Council list, since it's a methodological issue rather than a matter of policy, and we should probably start experimenting right now with the suggested approach. Initially, this would involve a process whereby individual chapters of the Guidelines, which right now are single files, would be reorganized into a structure file, containing the intro, and the component pieces, which would be stored in a subfolder and XIncluded back into the main file at build time. So the CO chapter would become: CO-CoreElements.xml (structure file, including intro) CO (folder) | -- CO_COPA.xml (section on "Paragraphs") -- CO_COPU.xml (section on "Treatment of Punctuation") -- etc. Each section file would be XIncluded into the main structure file, which is in turn XIncluded into guidelines-en.xml for building. Lou has tested this nested-XInclude setup on his local machine and it seems to work fine. So: - Shall we go ahead and fragment the CO chapter as a test? - If so, do we believe that the granularity of the fragmenting (level 1 sections) is correct, or should we be breaking things down further? - Should we keep the overview in the main structure file, along with the intro? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 13:19:29 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 17:19:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Setting up chapters for translation In-Reply-To: <51508175.2040101@uvic.ca> References: <51508175.2040101@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16BDE5@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 25 Mar 2013, at 16:55, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > > - Shall we go ahead and fragment the CO chapter as a test? > if Florence does not choose to translate CO, I am not sure what its a test of? I am inclined to say do all chapters now or wait until we need to > - If so, do we believe that the granularity of the fragmenting (level > 1 sections) is correct, or should we be breaking things down further? > I'd say below div1 is impractical > - Should we keep the overview in the main structure file, along with > the intro? i am inclined to yes. have a single file with the whole structure, and one huge set of XIncluded <div>1 and I'd suggest to Florence that pretty please translate the whole structure into French first, then do a bunch of <div>1 at her leisure. Then we have a French Guidelines in skeletal form ready to roll. it would also make file management easier if we had guidelines-en.xml guidelines-fr.xml divs-fr/*.xml divs-en/*.xml -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 13:21:28 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 17:21:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Setting up chapters for translation In-Reply-To: <51508175.2040101@uvic.ca> References: <51508175.2040101@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51508798.5020202@kcl.ac.uk> Quick comment only: On 2013-03-25 16:55, Martin Holmes wrote: > - If so, do we believe that the granularity of the fragmenting (level > 1 sections) is correct, or should we be breaking things down further? I can't see the value in breaking it down any further. Surely if someone wants to read (or make) a translation of some of the core chapter, it won't be much use to them to only have a couple of paragraphs of that, will it? -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 14:13:51 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 18:13:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] URL in get.xml doesn't go anywhere In-Reply-To: <5149AFD2.3080000@uvic.ca> References: <5149AF31.5010305@uvic.ca> <5149AFD2.3080000@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <515093DF.6020502@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi Martin, Did you make a decision about this? I would, in fact, remove mention of OUCS all together (since OUCS no longer exists... we are now 'IT Services' and that website will one day disappear.) I also notice on this page that: - Link to the wiki uses the www.tei-c.org/wiki/ redirect to wiki.tei-c.org - The tei-emacs link is wrong (now github?) as is passivetex Catching up on email after week-long holiday, James On 20/03/13 12:47, Martin Holmes wrote: > This one links to a page, but the page doesn't seem relevant to the link > in get.xml: > > <p>This complex customization is given as an example of > how the Oxford University Computing Services use the > TEI for authoring its website. See <ref > target="http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/">http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/</ref> > to see documents validated against schemas generated > from this ODD.</p> > > Is there a better candidate for this link? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-03-20 05:44 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> The page at >> >> <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> >> >> links to this URL: >> >> <http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/> >> >> which no longer seems to point to anything. Is there another URL that >> should work, or should that whole section be deleted? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 14:58:44 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 18:58:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Setting up chapters for translation In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16BDE5@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51508175.2040101@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16BDE5@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51509E64.6030002@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 25/03/13 17:19, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 25 Mar 2013, at 16:55, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote: > >> - Shall we go ahead and fragment the CO chapter as a test? >> > if Florence does not choose to translate CO, I am not sure what its > a test of? I am inclined to say do all chapters now or wait > until we need to I can't see that it makes a lot of difference whether we split them all now or as and when we need to, but I've always been a "just-in-time" kind of person myself. > >> - If so, do we believe that the granularity of the fragmenting (level >> 1 sections) is correct, or should we be breaking things down further? >> > I'd say below div1 is impractical you mean div2. We already do xincludes for all the div1s in the file guidelines-xx.xml > >> - Should we keep the overview in the main structure file, along with >> the intro? > > i am inclined to yes. have a single file with the whole structure, and one huge set of XIncluded <div>1 see above. i otoh think it would be simpler just need to revise each XX-chapter.xml file to be a container for each of *its* top level divs (in the older chapters these are labelled @type=div2) > and I'd suggest to Florence that pretty please translate the whole structure into French > first, then do a bunch of <div>1 at her leisure. Then we have a French Guidelines > in skeletal form ready to roll. Not sure what you mean by that, nor what advantage it would give over tweaking the current guidelines-fr.xml > it would also make file management easier if we had > > guidelines-en.xml > guidelines-fr.xml > divs-fr/*.xml > divs-en/*.xml if you like. i was assuming a. take current CO. xml and replace all of its top level divs by xincludes of files named for the current xml:id value e.g COPA.xml, CONU.xml etc. b. copy that to a new CO-fr.xml which is then xincluded by guidelines-fr.xml c. when e.g. COPA.xml gets translated, we add a new file COPA-fr.xml and tweak the xInclude in CO-fr.xml to include that instead of COPA.xml d. if e.g. COPA.xml is modified subsequently we will notice that its date is more recent than that of COPA-fr.xml and ring appropriate alarum bells There will be less need to tweak the xInclude statements if we keep the directory structure flat, obvs. From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Mar 25 16:16:49 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 13:16:49 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] URL in get.xml doesn't go anywhere In-Reply-To: <515093DF.6020502@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <5149AF31.5010305@uvic.ca> <5149AFD2.3080000@uvic.ca> <515093DF.6020502@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5150B0B1.20702@uvic.ca> On 13-03-25 11:13 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > Did you make a decision about this? I would, in fact, remove > mention of OUCS all together (since OUCS no longer exists... we > are now 'IT Services' and that website will one day disappear.) That's what Sebastian said, so I nuked the entire bit. I guess we'll have to trawl the whole tei-c site and associated materials for anything pointing at OUCS. Seems weird that there'll be no OUCS any more. > I also notice on this page that: > > - Link to the wiki uses the www.tei-c.org/wiki/ redirect to > wiki.tei-c.org So it should be direct to wiki.tei-c.org? > > - The tei-emacs link is wrong (now github?) as is passivetex Should I point tei-emacs at github, or remove the ref to it? Where is passivetex now? Cheers, Martin > Catching up on email after week-long holiday, > > James > > On 20/03/13 12:47, Martin Holmes wrote: >> This one links to a page, but the page doesn't seem relevant to the link >> in get.xml: >> >> <p>This complex customization is given as an example of >> how the Oxford University Computing Services use the >> TEI for authoring its website. See <ref >> target="http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/">http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/</ref> >> to see documents validated against schemas generated >> from this ODD.</p> >> >> Is there a better candidate for this link? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-03-20 05:44 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> Hi there, >>> >>> The page at >>> >>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> >>> >>> links to this URL: >>> >>> <http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/> >>> >>> which no longer seems to point to anything. Is there another URL that >>> should work, or should that whole section be deleted? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 16:20:32 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 20:20:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] URL in get.xml doesn't go anywhere In-Reply-To: <5150B0B1.20702@uvic.ca> References: <5149AF31.5010305@uvic.ca> <5149AFD2.3080000@uvic.ca> <515093DF.6020502@it.ox.ac.uk> <5150B0B1.20702@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16D2B6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 25 Mar 2013, at 20:16, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > > Should I point tei-emacs at github, or remove the ref to it? Where is > passivetex now? https://github.com/sebastianrahtz/tei-emacs and https://github.com/sebastianrahtz/passivetex -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 18:06:01 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 22:06:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Setting up chapters for translation In-Reply-To: <51509E64.6030002@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51508175.2040101@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16BDE5@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51509E64.6030002@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <96f80bf0-cf44-4871-a076-943a79545f3c@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 25 Mar 2013, at 18:58, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> if Florence does not choose to translate CO, I am not sure what its >> a test of? I am inclined to say do all chapters now or wait >> until we need to > > I can't see that it makes a lot of difference whether we split them all > now or as and when we need to, but I've always been a "just-in-time" > kind of person myself. I'm more in favour of implementing it straightaway if we're ever going to > > you mean div2. We already do xincludes for all the div1s in the file > guidelines-xx.xml yeah, all my div1 i meant div2 > > see above. i otoh think it would be simpler just need to revise each > XX-chapter.xml file to be a container for each of *its* top level divs > (in the older chapters these are labelled @type=div2) > I was after the abstract beauty of an entire top level doc with all its div1 in place > > a. take current CO. xml and replace all of its top level divs by > xincludes of files named for the current xml:id value e.g COPA.xml, > CONU.xml etc. > > b. copy that to a new CO-fr.xml which is then xincluded by > guidelines-fr.xml > > c. when e.g. COPA.xml gets translated, we add a new file COPA-fr.xml and > tweak the xInclude in CO-fr.xml to include that instead of COPA.xml > > d. if e.g. COPA.xml is modified subsequently we will notice that its > date is more recent than that of COPA-fr.xml and ring appropriate alarum > bells i have a small dislike of a) embedding metadata (@lang) in file names, and b) special-casing english, FWIW. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 19:11:22 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 23:11:22 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Setting up chapters for translation In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16D8F6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51508175.2040101@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16BDE5@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51509E64.6030002@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16D8F6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5150D99A.9060303@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 25/03/13 22:06, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > i have a small dislike of a) embedding metadata (@lang) in file names, > and b) special-casing english, FWIW. -- a) but you don't mind embedding the same metadata in directory names? b) but english *is* a special case -- we are translating from it into other languages. no-one has yet proposed writing a new chapter of the Gl;ines in some other language. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 25 19:23:08 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2013 23:23:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Setting up chapters for translation In-Reply-To: <5150D99A.9060303@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51508175.2040101@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16BDE5@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51509E64.6030002@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16D8F6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5150D99A.9060303@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <ba52e769-0353-4c1f-8b26-5f7af6297d3c@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 25 Mar 2013, at 23:11, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> i have a small dislike of a) embedding metadata (@lang) in file names, and b) special-casing english, FWIW. -- > > a) but you don't mind embedding the same metadata in directory names? strangely, no I like the idea of matching an ID to a file name directly. > b) but english *is* a special case -- we are translating from it into other languages. no-one has yet proposed writing a new chapter of the Gl;ines in some other language. > hmm. that is an interesting argument. so if that happened (in French) then the french section would be shorn of a lang, and the english would have a suffix? smacks to me like it fails the famous "no magic" rule. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 26 06:37:26 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:37:26 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Setting up chapters for translation In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16E1C6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51508175.2040101@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16BDE5@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51509E64.6030002@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16D8F6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5150D99A.9060303@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16E1C6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51517A66.6050005@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 25/03/13 23:23, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 25 Mar 2013, at 23:11, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: >>> i have a small dislike of a) embedding metadata (@lang) in file names, and b) special-casing english, FWIW. -- >> a) but you don't mind embedding the same metadata in directory names? > strangely, no > > I like the idea of matching an ID to a file name directly. I think the risk of confusion when I have two files called COPA which are just different because of the folder they happen to be in is to be avoided. But it's not a deal breaker! > >> b) but english *is* a special case -- we are translating from it into other languages. no-one has yet proposed writing a new chapter of the Gl;ines in some other language. >> > hmm. that is an interesting argument. so if that happened (in French) then the french section would be shorn of a lang, and the english would have a suffix? So you would strain at the gnat of political incorrectness having swallowed the horse of someone writing a new chapter of the Guidelines in some language other than English? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 26 06:46:29 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2013 10:46:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Setting up chapters for translation In-Reply-To: <51517A66.6050005@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51508175.2040101@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16BDE5@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51509E64.6030002@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16D8F6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5150D99A.9060303@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A16E1C6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51517A66.6050005@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <217f3d1f-54b8-4e37-bab8-0125dbeaddf8@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 26 Mar 2013, at 10:37, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > I think the risk of confusion when I have two files called COPA which are just different because of the folder they happen to be in is to be avoided. strange. that comes naturally to me ... >>> >> hmm. that is an interesting argument. so if that happened (in French) then the french section would be shorn of a lang, and the english would have a suffix? > > So you would strain at the gnat of political incorrectness having swallowed the horse of someone writing a new chapter of the Guidelines in some language other than English? well, thats what they teach us to do at Oxford :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Mar 28 18:00:15 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 15:00:15 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Preparation for Providence Message-ID: <5154BD6F.8070506@uvic.ca> What should we be doing in preparation for the meeting? We have the to-do lists from the last two meetings: <http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/AnnArbor2012-Actions> <http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Oxford2012-Actions> and I know I have one or two things there which are embarrassingly not done. Is there anything else we could be doing? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 28 19:28:17 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 23:28:17 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Preparation for Providence In-Reply-To: <5154BD6F.8070506@uvic.ca> References: <5154BD6F.8070506@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5154D211.70800@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 28/03/13 22:00, Martin Holmes wrote: > What should we be doing in preparation for the meeting? We have the > to-do lists from the last two meetings: > > <http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/AnnArbor2012-Actions> > > <http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Oxford2012-Actions> > > and I know I have one or two things there which are embarrassingly not > done. Is there anything else we could be doing? I've added links to these lists to the agenda for the meeting that James has just put on the wiki at http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2013-04 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 28 20:03:15 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 00:03:15 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Preparation for Providence In-Reply-To: <5154D211.70800@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5154BD6F.8070506@uvic.ca> <5154D211.70800@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5154DA43.90808@it.ox.ac.uk> On 28/03/13 23:28, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 28/03/13 22:00, Martin Holmes wrote: >> What should we be doing in preparation for the meeting? We have the >> to-do lists from the last two meetings: >> >> <http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/AnnArbor2012-Actions> >> >> <http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Oxford2012-Actions> >> >> and I know I have one or two things there which are embarrassingly not >> done. Is there anything else we could be doing? > > I've added links to these lists to the agenda for the meeting that James > has just put on the wiki > at http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2013-04 As you can see from the skeleton agenda I'm proposing we work from 9-5:30 each day (though those who need to leave from Saturday lunchtime are able to). Council should fill out that schedule with issues that need discussing. We don't want to repeat discussions we've had before, but will be revisiting actions that have not been done. I'm assuming Council wants to work, as before, alternating between discussion of general issues and processing bugs/fr through a combination of full group discussion and small breakout groups, assigning them to someone and coming to a decision if possible. If you have tickets that are decided and assigned to you, then try to implement them so we can remove them from the triage that Lou has kindly agreed to attempt to do starting from Wednesday. You may have noticed that I've posted to TEI-L encouraging anyone with pending bugs/fr to submit them before that date. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Mar 28 20:30:50 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 17:30:50 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Preparation for Providence In-Reply-To: <5154D211.70800@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5154BD6F.8070506@uvic.ca> <5154D211.70800@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5154E0BA.2090301@uvic.ca> Great. I've taken the liberty of adding "Update on the work of the Text Directionality Working Group (MH) " to the agenda -- James, feel free to move it around (or delete it if you think it'll be too boring). I can't imagine talking for more than five or ten minutes about it. Cheers, Martin On 13-03-28 04:28 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 28/03/13 22:00, Martin Holmes wrote: >> What should we be doing in preparation for the meeting? We have the >> to-do lists from the last two meetings: >> >> <http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/AnnArbor2012-Actions> >> >> <http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Oxford2012-Actions> >> >> and I know I have one or two things there which are embarrassingly not >> done. Is there anything else we could be doing? > > I've added links to these lists to the agenda for the meeting that James > has just put on the wiki > at http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2013-04 > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Mar 29 05:36:38 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 09:36:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Preparation for Providence In-Reply-To: <5154E0BA.2090301@uvic.ca> References: <5154BD6F.8070506@uvic.ca> <5154D211.70800@retired.ox.ac.uk>,<5154E0BA.2090301@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <p7x6eiwhgw0dbr30uke0rwa9.1364549797147@email.android.com> I may move some things around but yes add anything that you feel needs to be discussed. We may reorganize stuff in the very first session. James -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: Great. I've taken the liberty of adding "Update on the work of the Text Directionality Working Group (MH) " to the agenda -- James, feel free to move it around (or delete it if you think it'll be too boring). I can't imagine talking for more than five or ten minutes about it. Cheers, Martin On 13-03-28 04:28 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 28/03/13 22:00, Martin Holmes wrote: >> What should we be doing in preparation for the meeting? We have the >> to-do lists from the last two meetings: >> >> <http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/AnnArbor2012-Actions> >> >> <http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Oxford2012-Actions> >> >> and I know I have one or two things there which are embarrassingly not >> done. Is there anything else we could be doing? > > I've added links to these lists to the agenda for the meeting that James > has just put on the wiki > at http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2013-04 > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Mar 29 22:59:35 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 22:59:35 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] handy interface for finding revisions affecting a given line Message-ID: <51565517.4000702@ultraslavonic.info> Before we upgraded our SF site to Allura, I recall that you could browse the svn repository trunk using the GUI, and that for any given files you could see not only the history of commit messages and diffs to previous versions but also could click on a link which, after a long delay, would produce a webpage that showed the whole file with a revision number next to each line, showing you when that line was last modified. I'm looking for this same feature in the Allura's GUI for accessing our repository. Well, if there's an svn command-line way to do it (where you supply a line number), that would be fine too. Has anyone seen this? From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Mar 29 23:07:32 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 23:07:32 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml: the missing chapter In-Reply-To: <51463ACD.2000806@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <510D8E45.5000104@ultraslavonic.info> <510D9C03.2030206@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510D9D6F.4090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5146364B.2010102@ultraslavonic.info> <51463ACD.2000806@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515656F4.9070708@ultraslavonic.info> This is now on our meeting agenda for Providence. On 3/17/13 5:51 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > Or you could just rename "Specs-Unused "to "nowDefunct" and keep all > the old superceded garbage in there. > > > > On 17/03/13 21:31, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> To close the loop (you all know how much I like to do that), I now think >> it would be better to leave this unfinished work as is and focus >> instead, as we've previously discussed, on incorporating relevant >> portions of the Best Practices for TEI in Libraries into the Guidelines. >> >> Still, since we have both Specs/ and Specs-Unused/ , what if we create a >> Guidelines-Unused/ to complement Guidelines/ ? (And then we'd move >> SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml to there.) >> >> --Kevin >> >> On 2/2/13 6:12 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>> Ah, found it. >>> >>> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm30.xml (Minutes of >>> council meeting in Berlin, April 2007 at which all P5 chapters were >>> reviewed) >>> >>> >>> "SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml >>> >>> MD recommends chapter be dropped. JW (co-author of the re-write) >>> concurs. JW was assigned to draft a few paragraphs discussing the >>> relationship between the TEI Header and other standards (including MARC >>> and Dublin Core) in general terms, without detailed mappings. >>> >>> Action 52: JW TRAC http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac/TEIP5/ticket/336 . >>> Draft paras on metadata standards 2007-05-05 >>> Action 53: SB put JW paras in appropriate place at end of HD 2007-05-12" >>> >>> >>> >>> On 02/02/13 23:06, Lou Burnard wrote: >>>> Well, here's my understanding of the history: >>>> >>>> Chapter SH was originally called "The Independent Header" and was >>>> drafted for P3 by Rich Giordano. This survived into P4, but in P5 was >>>> removed. In 2005 or so, when Natasha and John were both on Council, they >>>> volunteered to rework it as a survey of the way libraries in practice >>>> mapped TEI Header elements to other metadata standards. There are a few >>>> mentions of this work as being ongoing in the minutes of that year -- >>>> not having all the minutes to hand I am not sure what happened to this >>>> work -- but doubt John can. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 02/02/13 22:08, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>>> Folks, >>>>> >>>>> I just came across Source/Guidelines/en/SH-OtherMetadataStandards.xml . >>>>> From comments in the file, it looks like John Walsh, Natasha Smith, >>>>> and others from the SIG on Libraries were once involved in drafting this >>>>> but it never made it into the Guidelines. >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone know whether this was rejected for inclusion in the >>>>> Guidelines, or was the work just never completed? It includes a number >>>>> of things that made their way in some form into the latest revision of >>>>> the Best Practices for TEI in Libraries (though I have quibbles with how >>>>> many things are stated in "SH"), and I was thinking that since we >>>>> decided to incorporate things from the Best Practices into the >>>>> Guidelines, it seems like a good way to start would be to get SH into a >>>>> good enough form for inclusion in the Guidelines. I'm willing to take >>>>> the lead on that and ask for feedback on my revised draft from the SIG >>>>> on Libraries. >>>>> >>>>> Objections? Does anyone have notes on previous objections to the text, >>>>> things that were meant to be incorporated, etc.? >>>>> >>>>> --Kevin >>>>> > From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Mar 29 23:08:44 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2013 23:08:44 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: TEI Project at SourceForge; Subversion Repository; Issue trackers In-Reply-To: <51452D88.1070506@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5141D72F.2080800@fastmail.fm> <5142709D.806@ultraslavonic.info> <51452D88.1070506@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5156573C.6000900@ultraslavonic.info> I've added a link to these questions in the agenda for Providence. On 3/16/13 10:42 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > I have added these questions to the end of: > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E0aV-E75VOLE_TCrEXVVqaez-9zlyDcpCTeF5QP2BPI/edit > On 3/14/13 8:51 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> James (and others), >> >> Given that the IDs of tracker items were unfortunately not maintained in >> the upgrade, I guess we will need to keep the PURL system resolving only >> to tracker rather than repurposing it for the new syntax. Are we going >> to create a new PURL syntax that resolves to the new SF system or not >> bother, instead using the fairly human-friendly URLs of the new system >> without bothering with any sort of PURL? >> >> Did any part of the upgrade process say how long the redirects would be >> maintained by SourceForge? Based on that answer, do we have a sense of >> how much value there is in updating URLs in old TCM documents etc. to >> point to the new tracker URLs? That is, at some point these links will >> break, but it can be helpful to reconstruct a discussion to look at the >> ticket. On the other hand, the longer ago something was, the less >> likely it is that we will need to (or bother to) dig so deep. >> >> Kevin From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Apr 1 19:14:52 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 16:14:52 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] macro.anyXML Message-ID: <515A14EC.3010803@uvic.ca> When I look at the ref page for macro.anyXML, I see something that looks a bit weird: macro.anyXML = element * - (d36e2:* | d226960e7a3528:egXML) { attribute * { text }*, ( text | macro.anyXML )* } I think those strange namespace prefixes must be accidental artifacts of the processing; the spec itself specifies any element except for <egXML> in the Examples namespace. In the latest Jinks build, the prefixes differ slightly from those in the release, so I think they're auto-generated by XSLT somehow. Should I raise a bug, or am I missing something? Cheers, Martin From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 1 19:24:30 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 23:24:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] macro.anyXML In-Reply-To: <515A14EC.3010803@uvic.ca> References: <515A14EC.3010803@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3230DED5-893F-431F-BE26-C931CBB7DE03@it.ox.ac.uk> Namespace prefixes dont have to be humanly readable or the same all the time. Do they map to the right thing? Carved in stone on my iPad On 2 Apr 2013, at 00:14, "Martin Holmes" <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > When I look at the ref page for macro.anyXML, I see something that looks > a bit weird: > > macro.anyXML = > element * - (d36e2:* | d226960e7a3528:egXML) > { > attribute * { text }*, > ( text | macro.anyXML )* > } > > I think those strange namespace prefixes must be accidental artifacts of > the processing; the spec itself specifies any element except for <egXML> > in the Examples namespace. In the latest Jinks build, the prefixes > differ slightly from those in the release, so I think they're > auto-generated by XSLT somehow. > > Should I raise a bug, or am I missing something? > > Cheers, > Martin > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Apr 1 20:41:56 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 17:41:56 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] URL in get.xml doesn't go anywhere In-Reply-To: <515093DF.6020502@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <5149AF31.5010305@uvic.ca> <5149AFD2.3080000@uvic.ca> <515093DF.6020502@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515A2954.6020309@uvic.ca> Just checking before I go any further with this: I have the impression that any links to www.tei-c.org/wiki should be changed to wiki.tei-c.org, based on what James says below, so I've been doing that wherever I come across them. There are quite a few, though. Am I right that they should be going in that direction? In other words: www.tei-c.org/wiki <-- BAD wiki.tei-c.org/ <-- GOOD Cheers, Martin On 13-03-25 11:13 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > Did you make a decision about this? I would, in fact, remove > mention of OUCS all together (since OUCS no longer exists... we > are now 'IT Services' and that website will one day disappear.) > > I also notice on this page that: > > - Link to the wiki uses the www.tei-c.org/wiki/ redirect to > wiki.tei-c.org > > - The tei-emacs link is wrong (now github?) as is passivetex > > Catching up on email after week-long holiday, > > James > > On 20/03/13 12:47, Martin Holmes wrote: >> This one links to a page, but the page doesn't seem relevant to the link >> in get.xml: >> >> <p>This complex customization is given as an example of >> how the Oxford University Computing Services use the >> TEI for authoring its website. See <ref >> target="http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/">http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/</ref> >> to see documents validated against schemas generated >> from this ODD.</p> >> >> Is there a better candidate for this link? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-03-20 05:44 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> Hi there, >>> >>> The page at >>> >>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> >>> >>> links to this URL: >>> >>> <http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/> >>> >>> which no longer seems to point to anything. Is there another URL that >>> should work, or should that whole section be deleted? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> > > From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Apr 1 21:09:28 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2013 18:09:28 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] macro.anyXML In-Reply-To: <3230DED5-893F-431F-BE26-C931CBB7DE03@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <515A14EC.3010803@uvic.ca> <3230DED5-893F-431F-BE26-C931CBB7DE03@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515A2FC8.7090305@uvic.ca> On 13-04-01 04:24 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Namespace prefixes dont have to be humanly readable or the same all the time. Do they map to the right thing? I think they map to the right thing in the context of any given build of the Guidelines, but I was looking at the reference page from the point of view of its being documentation for regular users. There's no way to tell what they map to from the HTML page. I wonder if it might be better to use Clark Notation for namespaces in the HTML output? Cheers, Martin > > Carved in stone on my iPad > > On 2 Apr 2013, at 00:14, "Martin Holmes" <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > >> When I look at the ref page for macro.anyXML, I see something that looks >> a bit weird: >> >> macro.anyXML = >> element * - (d36e2:* | d226960e7a3528:egXML) >> { >> attribute * { text }*, >> ( text | macro.anyXML )* >> } >> >> I think those strange namespace prefixes must be accidental artifacts of >> the processing; the spec itself specifies any element except for <egXML> >> in the Examples namespace. In the latest Jinks build, the prefixes >> differ slightly from those in the release, so I think they're >> auto-generated by XSLT somehow. >> >> Should I raise a bug, or am I missing something? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Apr 2 13:48:34 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 13:48:34 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> Hi Elli, On 2/1/2013 11:55 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >> - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for informal >> small breakout groups? > > I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there > is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are > at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, > my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. Has this location been confirmed for Thursday, Friday, and/or Saturday? (I see at http://library.brown.edu/dsl/ that there's a lecture scheduled in there for Thursday, so I guess we'd have to move next door during that time, as you suggested.) --Kevin From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Tue Apr 2 14:09:02 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2013 14:09:02 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> Kevin: We have the DSL for Thur, Fri and Sat. We also have the room next door, and another conference room at our disposal. There is a lecture series (a good one, worth attending) at 5:30, and we may have to step out a little earlier for setup. I think there may also be a class we have to work around on Thursday. I am working on getting you all swipe cards so you can enter and leave the library easily. --elli On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Kevin Hawkins < kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > Hi Elli, > > On 2/1/2013 11:55 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > >> - We'll need a room for 12-15 people and some areas we can go for > informal > >> small breakout groups? > > > > I have requested the Digital Scholarship Lab for those days. If there > > is a class in it, we can move next door for an hour or two. There are > > at least 2 rooms for breakouts in the same building (room next to DSL, > > my office conference table), and possibly one or two more. > > Has this location been confirmed for Thursday, Friday, and/or Saturday? > (I see at http://library.brown.edu/dsl/ that there's a lecture > scheduled in there for Thursday, so I guess we'd have to move next door > during that time, as you suggested.) > > --Kevin > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Apr 2 19:33:57 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2013 19:33:57 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] URL in get.xml doesn't go anywhere In-Reply-To: <515A2954.6020309@uvic.ca> References: <5149AF31.5010305@uvic.ca> <5149AFD2.3080000@uvic.ca> <515093DF.6020502@it.ox.ac.uk> <515A2954.6020309@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <515B6AE5.5050903@ultraslavonic.info> I dug through emails from 2008 for the history. Originally MediaWiki was installed at http://www.tei-c.org/wiki , but I requested the virtual host for the very selfish reason that I wanted to continue using Firefox's Awesome Bar to autocomplete URLs that I would type in order to go straight to a particular wiki page that I had in mind. James sought approval from Council in December 2008, and then Shayne Brandon set up the virtual host and an Apache redirect from the old location. So, yes, I think you've got it right on which URLs are preferred. Incidentally, you might also notice that we have left-hand navigation menu links at these two pages: http://www.tei-c.org/Support/ http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/ that redirect to the wiki. These use OpenCMS-based redirects. --Kevin On 4/1/13 8:41 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > Just checking before I go any further with this: > > I have the impression that any links to www.tei-c.org/wiki should be > changed to wiki.tei-c.org, based on what James says below, so I've been > doing that wherever I come across them. There are quite a few, though. > Am I right that they should be going in that direction? In other words: > > www.tei-c.org/wiki <-- BAD > wiki.tei-c.org/ <-- GOOD > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-03-25 11:13 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> >> Hi Martin, >> >> Did you make a decision about this? I would, in fact, remove >> mention of OUCS all together (since OUCS no longer exists... we >> are now 'IT Services' and that website will one day disappear.) >> >> I also notice on this page that: >> >> - Link to the wiki uses the www.tei-c.org/wiki/ redirect to >> wiki.tei-c.org >> >> - The tei-emacs link is wrong (now github?) as is passivetex >> >> Catching up on email after week-long holiday, >> >> James >> >> On 20/03/13 12:47, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> This one links to a page, but the page doesn't seem relevant to the link >>> in get.xml: >>> >>> <p>This complex customization is given as an example of >>> how the Oxford University Computing Services use the >>> TEI for authoring its website. See <ref >>> target="http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/">http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/</ref> >>> to see documents validated against schemas generated >>> from this ODD.</p> >>> >>> Is there a better candidate for this link? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-03-20 05:44 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> Hi there, >>>> >>>> The page at >>>> >>>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> >>>> >>>> links to this URL: >>>> >>>> <http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/> >>>> >>>> which no longer seems to point to anything. Is there another URL that >>>> should work, or should that whole section be deleted? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >> >> From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 3 08:35:02 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 05:35:02 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] URL in get.xml doesn't go anywhere In-Reply-To: <515B6AE5.5050903@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5149AF31.5010305@uvic.ca> <5149AFD2.3080000@uvic.ca> <515093DF.6020502@it.ox.ac.uk> <515A2954.6020309@uvic.ca> <515B6AE5.5050903@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <515C21F6.4050204@uvic.ca> Thanks Kevin. I'll go through the whole site and fix the URLs to point to the virtual host. I think there are around half a dozen pointing to the old location. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-02 04:33 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > I dug through emails from 2008 for the history. > > Originally MediaWiki was installed at http://www.tei-c.org/wiki , but I > requested the virtual host for the very selfish reason that I wanted to > continue using Firefox's Awesome Bar to autocomplete URLs that I would > type in order to go straight to a particular wiki page that I had in > mind. James sought approval from Council in December 2008, and then > Shayne Brandon set up the virtual host and an Apache redirect from the > old location. > > So, yes, I think you've got it right on which URLs are preferred. > > Incidentally, you might also notice that we have left-hand navigation > menu links at these two pages: > > http://www.tei-c.org/Support/ > http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/ > > that redirect to the wiki. These use OpenCMS-based redirects. > > --Kevin > > On 4/1/13 8:41 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Just checking before I go any further with this: >> >> I have the impression that any links to www.tei-c.org/wiki should be >> changed to wiki.tei-c.org, based on what James says below, so I've been >> doing that wherever I come across them. There are quite a few, though. >> Am I right that they should be going in that direction? In other words: >> >> www.tei-c.org/wiki <-- BAD >> wiki.tei-c.org/ <-- GOOD >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-03-25 11:13 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>> >>> Hi Martin, >>> >>> Did you make a decision about this? I would, in fact, remove >>> mention of OUCS all together (since OUCS no longer exists... we >>> are now 'IT Services' and that website will one day disappear.) >>> >>> I also notice on this page that: >>> >>> - Link to the wiki uses the www.tei-c.org/wiki/ redirect to >>> wiki.tei-c.org >>> >>> - The tei-emacs link is wrong (now github?) as is passivetex >>> >>> Catching up on email after week-long holiday, >>> >>> James >>> >>> On 20/03/13 12:47, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> This one links to a page, but the page doesn't seem relevant to the link >>>> in get.xml: >>>> >>>> <p>This complex customization is given as an example of >>>> how the Oxford University Computing Services use the >>>> TEI for authoring its website. See <ref >>>> target="http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/">http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/</ref> >>>> to see documents validated against schemas generated >>>> from this ODD.</p> >>>> >>>> Is there a better candidate for this link? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On 13-03-20 05:44 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>> Hi there, >>>>> >>>>> The page at >>>>> >>>>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> >>>>> >>>>> links to this URL: >>>>> >>>>> <http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/> >>>>> >>>>> which no longer seems to point to anything. Is there another URL that >>>>> should work, or should that whole section be deleted? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>> >>> From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Wed Apr 3 10:47:26 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:47:26 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> Two quick questions: (1) What is the weather like in RI in April? (It's still the middle of winter here in the UK, so just wondering if we should bring woollens and waterproofs or shorts and shades... ;-) ) (2) Is anyone arriving at Logan around 6 on Wednesday afternoon and fancies heading into Providence together? (I've done that trip before, but still don't trust myself to make all the connections in a sensible way...) Gabby -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 3 11:20:57 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:20:57 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] URL in get.xml doesn't go anywhere In-Reply-To: <515B6AE5.5050903@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5149AF31.5010305@uvic.ca> <5149AFD2.3080000@uvic.ca> <515093DF.6020502@it.ox.ac.uk> <515A2954.6020309@uvic.ca> <515B6AE5.5050903@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <515C48D9.2020509@uvic.ca> I've changed everything I can find in the CMS that references tei-c.org/wiki to wiki.tei-c.org, but there are still a couple of references that Kevin pointed out in the menus of these pages: http://www.tei-c.org/Support/ http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/ I can't see how those page-level menus are being created -- it's presumably somewhere in the XSLT. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Cheers, Martin On 13-04-02 04:33 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > I dug through emails from 2008 for the history. > > Originally MediaWiki was installed at http://www.tei-c.org/wiki , but I > requested the virtual host for the very selfish reason that I wanted to > continue using Firefox's Awesome Bar to autocomplete URLs that I would > type in order to go straight to a particular wiki page that I had in > mind. James sought approval from Council in December 2008, and then > Shayne Brandon set up the virtual host and an Apache redirect from the > old location. > > So, yes, I think you've got it right on which URLs are preferred. > > Incidentally, you might also notice that we have left-hand navigation > menu links at these two pages: > > http://www.tei-c.org/Support/ > http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/ > > that redirect to the wiki. These use OpenCMS-based redirects. > > --Kevin > > On 4/1/13 8:41 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Just checking before I go any further with this: >> >> I have the impression that any links to www.tei-c.org/wiki should be >> changed to wiki.tei-c.org, based on what James says below, so I've been >> doing that wherever I come across them. There are quite a few, though. >> Am I right that they should be going in that direction? In other words: >> >> www.tei-c.org/wiki <-- BAD >> wiki.tei-c.org/ <-- GOOD >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-03-25 11:13 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>> >>> Hi Martin, >>> >>> Did you make a decision about this? I would, in fact, remove >>> mention of OUCS all together (since OUCS no longer exists... we >>> are now 'IT Services' and that website will one day disappear.) >>> >>> I also notice on this page that: >>> >>> - Link to the wiki uses the www.tei-c.org/wiki/ redirect to >>> wiki.tei-c.org >>> >>> - The tei-emacs link is wrong (now github?) as is passivetex >>> >>> Catching up on email after week-long holiday, >>> >>> James >>> >>> On 20/03/13 12:47, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> This one links to a page, but the page doesn't seem relevant to the link >>>> in get.xml: >>>> >>>> <p>This complex customization is given as an example of >>>> how the Oxford University Computing Services use the >>>> TEI for authoring its website. See <ref >>>> target="http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/">http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/</ref> >>>> to see documents validated against schemas generated >>>> from this ODD.</p> >>>> >>>> Is there a better candidate for this link? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On 13-03-20 05:44 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>> Hi there, >>>>> >>>>> The page at >>>>> >>>>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> >>>>> >>>>> links to this URL: >>>>> >>>>> <http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/> >>>>> >>>>> which no longer seems to point to anything. Is there another URL that >>>>> should work, or should that whole section be deleted? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>> >>> -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Apr 3 11:39:37 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 11:39:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] URL in get.xml doesn't go anywhere In-Reply-To: <515C48D9.2020509@uvic.ca> References: <5149AF31.5010305@uvic.ca> <5149AFD2.3080000@uvic.ca> <515093DF.6020502@it.ox.ac.uk> <515A2954.6020309@uvic.ca> <515B6AE5.5050903@ultraslavonic.info> <515C48D9.2020509@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304031136530.26788@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Martin, In OpenCMS, navigate to /Support/. In the file list, you'll see "TEI_Wiki" with a globe icon. Right-click on it and choose "Edit Link" to change the target. (Thanks for making all these changes. I should note that I've had my hands full with work-related things and am not keeping as close a watch on the Board/Council lists as I'd like. It wouldn't hurt to send me email directly for any web-related things that need my input or help.) David On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: > I've changed everything I can find in the CMS that references > tei-c.org/wiki to wiki.tei-c.org, but there are still a couple of > references that Kevin pointed out in the menus of these pages: > > http://www.tei-c.org/Support/ > http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/ > > I can't see how those page-level menus are being created -- it's > presumably somewhere in the XSLT. Can anyone point me in the right > direction? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-04-02 04:33 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> I dug through emails from 2008 for the history. >> >> Originally MediaWiki was installed at http://www.tei-c.org/wiki , but I >> requested the virtual host for the very selfish reason that I wanted to >> continue using Firefox's Awesome Bar to autocomplete URLs that I would >> type in order to go straight to a particular wiki page that I had in >> mind. James sought approval from Council in December 2008, and then >> Shayne Brandon set up the virtual host and an Apache redirect from the >> old location. >> >> So, yes, I think you've got it right on which URLs are preferred. >> >> Incidentally, you might also notice that we have left-hand navigation >> menu links at these two pages: >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/Support/ >> http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/ >> >> that redirect to the wiki. These use OpenCMS-based redirects. >> >> --Kevin >> >> On 4/1/13 8:41 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> Just checking before I go any further with this: >>> >>> I have the impression that any links to www.tei-c.org/wiki should be >>> changed to wiki.tei-c.org, based on what James says below, so I've been >>> doing that wherever I come across them. There are quite a few, though. >>> Am I right that they should be going in that direction? In other words: >>> >>> www.tei-c.org/wiki <-- BAD >>> wiki.tei-c.org/ <-- GOOD >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-03-25 11:13 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Martin, >>>> >>>> Did you make a decision about this? I would, in fact, remove >>>> mention of OUCS all together (since OUCS no longer exists... we >>>> are now 'IT Services' and that website will one day disappear.) >>>> >>>> I also notice on this page that: >>>> >>>> - Link to the wiki uses the www.tei-c.org/wiki/ redirect to >>>> wiki.tei-c.org >>>> >>>> - The tei-emacs link is wrong (now github?) as is passivetex >>>> >>>> Catching up on email after week-long holiday, >>>> >>>> James >>>> >>>> On 20/03/13 12:47, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>> This one links to a page, but the page doesn't seem relevant to the link >>>>> in get.xml: >>>>> >>>>> <p>This complex customization is given as an example of >>>>> how the Oxford University Computing Services use the >>>>> TEI for authoring its website. See <ref >>>>> target="http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/">http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/</ref> >>>>> to see documents validated against schemas generated >>>>> from this ODD.</p> >>>>> >>>>> Is there a better candidate for this link? >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> On 13-03-20 05:44 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>>> Hi there, >>>>>> >>>>>> The page at >>>>>> >>>>>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> >>>>>> >>>>>> links to this URL: >>>>>> >>>>>> <http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/> >>>>>> >>>>>> which no longer seems to point to anything. Is there another URL that >>>>>> should work, or should that whole section be deleted? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>> >>>> > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400314, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4314 USA Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 3 11:46:21 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 08:46:21 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] URL in get.xml doesn't go anywhere In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304031136530.26788@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <5149AF31.5010305@uvic.ca> <5149AFD2.3080000@uvic.ca> <515093DF.6020502@it.ox.ac.uk> <515A2954.6020309@uvic.ca> <515B6AE5.5050903@ultraslavonic.info> <515C48D9.2020509@uvic.ca> <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304031136530.26788@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <515C4ECD.9080609@uvic.ca> On 13-04-03 08:39 AM, David Sewell wrote: > Martin, > > In OpenCMS, navigate to /Support/. In the file list, you'll see > "TEI_Wiki" with a globe icon. Right-click on it and choose "Edit Link" > to change the target. Ah -- I'd already made those changes, but I hadn't realized that the XSLT inserts a link link to the link, as it were, and the link points on to the wiki. Thanks! Cheers, Martin > (Thanks for making all these changes. I should note that I've had my > hands full with work-related things and am not keeping as close a watch > on the Board/Council lists as I'd like. It wouldn't hurt to send me > email directly for any web-related things that need my input or help.) > David > > On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: > >> I've changed everything I can find in the CMS that references >> tei-c.org/wiki to wiki.tei-c.org, but there are still a couple of >> references that Kevin pointed out in the menus of these pages: >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/Support/ >> http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/ >> >> I can't see how those page-level menus are being created -- it's >> presumably somewhere in the XSLT. Can anyone point me in the right >> direction? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-04-02 04:33 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> I dug through emails from 2008 for the history. >>> >>> Originally MediaWiki was installed at http://www.tei-c.org/wiki , but I >>> requested the virtual host for the very selfish reason that I wanted to >>> continue using Firefox's Awesome Bar to autocomplete URLs that I would >>> type in order to go straight to a particular wiki page that I had in >>> mind. James sought approval from Council in December 2008, and then >>> Shayne Brandon set up the virtual host and an Apache redirect from the >>> old location. >>> >>> So, yes, I think you've got it right on which URLs are preferred. >>> >>> Incidentally, you might also notice that we have left-hand navigation >>> menu links at these two pages: >>> >>> http://www.tei-c.org/Support/ >>> http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/ >>> >>> that redirect to the wiki. These use OpenCMS-based redirects. >>> >>> --Kevin >>> >>> On 4/1/13 8:41 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> Just checking before I go any further with this: >>>> >>>> I have the impression that any links to www.tei-c.org/wiki should be >>>> changed to wiki.tei-c.org, based on what James says below, so I've been >>>> doing that wherever I come across them. There are quite a few, though. >>>> Am I right that they should be going in that direction? In other words: >>>> >>>> www.tei-c.org/wiki <-- BAD >>>> wiki.tei-c.org/ <-- GOOD >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On 13-03-25 11:13 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Martin, >>>>> >>>>> Did you make a decision about this? I would, in fact, remove >>>>> mention of OUCS all together (since OUCS no longer exists... we >>>>> are now 'IT Services' and that website will one day disappear.) >>>>> >>>>> I also notice on this page that: >>>>> >>>>> - Link to the wiki uses the www.tei-c.org/wiki/ redirect to >>>>> wiki.tei-c.org >>>>> >>>>> - The tei-emacs link is wrong (now github?) as is passivetex >>>>> >>>>> Catching up on email after week-long holiday, >>>>> >>>>> James >>>>> >>>>> On 20/03/13 12:47, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>>> This one links to a page, but the page doesn't seem relevant to >>>>>> the link >>>>>> in get.xml: >>>>>> >>>>>> <p>This complex customization is given as an example of >>>>>> how the Oxford University Computing >>>>>> Services use the >>>>>> TEI for authoring its website. See <ref >>>>>> target="http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/">http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/</ref> >>>>>> to see documents validated against schemas >>>>>> generated >>>>>> from this ODD.</p> >>>>>> >>>>>> Is there a better candidate for this link? >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> On 13-03-20 05:44 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>>>> Hi there, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The page at >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> links to this URL: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> which no longer seems to point to anything. Is there another URL >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> should work, or should that whole section be deleted? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> >> > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 3 12:10:22 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 17:10:22 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> On 03/04/13 15:47, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Two quick questions: > > (1) What is the weather like in RI in April? (It's still the middle of > winter here in the UK, so just wondering if we should bring woollens and > waterproofs or shorts and shades... ;-) ) Using the 10 day forecast on www.weather.com tells me that Wed 10 is high of 11C/52F, Thursday same but with showers, Friday slightly better 13C/55F) with showers, average for Sat is 14C/58F. http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/USRI0050 > (2) Is anyone arriving at Logan around 6 on Wednesday afternoon and > fancies heading into Providence together? (I've done that trip before, > but still don't trust myself to make all the connections in a sensible > way...) Sebastian and I are arriving on BA 213 at 13:20 local time. Can you or someone who knows rehearse again what the easiest way is to get from Boston Logan to Providence is? -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 3 13:11:37 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 10:11:37 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515C62C9.7020405@uvic.ca> Hi there, > Sebastian and I are arriving on BA 213 at 13:20 local time. Can > you or someone who knows rehearse again what the easiest way is > to get from Boston Logan to Providence is? I'd appreciate that info too. I'll be arriving at Logan at 10.17 local time. Anyone else coming in the same time? If I'm delayed for some reason (I'm on Air Canada, overnight :-)) I'll try and hook up with you guys. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-03 09:10 AM, James Cummings wrote: > On 03/04/13 15:47, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> Two quick questions: >> >> (1) What is the weather like in RI in April? (It's still the middle of >> winter here in the UK, so just wondering if we should bring woollens and >> waterproofs or shorts and shades... ;-) ) > > Using the 10 day forecast on www.weather.com tells me that Wed > 10 is high of 11C/52F, Thursday same but with showers, Friday > slightly better 13C/55F) with showers, average for Sat is 14C/58F. > > http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/USRI0050 > >> (2) Is anyone arriving at Logan around 6 on Wednesday afternoon and >> fancies heading into Providence together? (I've done that trip before, >> but still don't trust myself to make all the connections in a sensible >> way...) > > Sebastian and I are arriving on BA 213 at 13:20 local time. Can > you or someone who knows rehearse again what the easiest way is > to get from Boston Logan to Providence is? > > -James > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 3 14:17:16 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:17:16 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk>,<515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <932584fd-9fa0-42b2-9c64-3e63e91770a2@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> > > >> > Sebastian and I are arriving on BA 213 at 13:20 local time. Can > you or someone who knows rehearse again what the easiest way is > to get from Boston Logan to Providence is? > Lou is on same flight, and has sussed the Amtrak route. I have got details. S From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 3 14:35:17 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:35:17 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk>, <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk>, <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5347bcbf-ad5b-4033-8eec-aa217256c2fd@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Maybe share these with the rest of the Council? Not that I don't trust you of course. James -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > >> > Sebastian and I are arriving on BA 213 at 13:20 local time. Can > you or someone who knows rehearse again what the easiest way is > to get from Boston Logan to Providence is? > Lou is on same flight, and has sussed the Amtrak route. I have got details. S From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 3 14:39:15 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 18:39:15 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk>, <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk>, <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk>, <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> Message-ID: <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 3 Apr 2013, at 19:35, "James Cummings" <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk<mailto:james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk>> wrote: Maybe share these with the rest of the Council? Not that I don't trust you of course. Sigh. And I thought I had demonstrated my untrustworthiness so often to you all.. Onna bus, will send Lou's timing later. Basically, go to Boston south station and jump onna train. Sebastian From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Wed Apr 3 14:54:04 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:54:04 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> Hi all council members: For travel from Logan to Providence, you have two options (I think I sent them earlier) Amtrak is a 3rd and much worse one. 1. Peter Pan Bus (www.peterpanbus.com) Goes around to all the terminals, runs about every 2 hours and comes directly to Providence. You get out not at the 1st Providence exit (the Bonanza Bus Station), you stay on the bus and go to Downtown Providence. You will be within a block of the Biltmore when you arrive. (Sometimes you have to get off at the bus station and get on another bus to go downtown, as they pool their passengers...) Fare is @ $20 o/w, $40 r/t and you can get your ticket on the web ahead of time. 2. Mass public transportation At Logan, get on the Silver Line bus/subway ($2) to South Station. At South Station, go to the train station, and buy a ticket for commuter rail to Providence ($20). You can find a schedule here: http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/lines/?route=PROVSTOU and make sure to correcty press inbound/outbound. it's a bad interface. There an MBTA phone app that may make buying a ticket easier. It's one of those things where you buy the ticket and activate it before getting on train. No standing in line. Is anyone arriving at Providence airport? (TF Green?) --elli On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk > wrote: > > > On 3 Apr 2013, at 19:35, "James Cummings" <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > <mailto:james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk>> wrote: > > Maybe share these with the rest of the Council? Not that I don't trust > you of course. > > Sigh. And I thought I had demonstrated my untrustworthiness so often to > you all.. > > Onna bus, will send Lou's timing later. Basically, go to Boston south > station and jump onna train. > > Sebastian > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed Apr 3 14:56:07 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 14:56:07 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <515C7B47.5050503@ultraslavonic.info> On 4/3/2013 2:54 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > Is anyone arriving at Providence airport? (TF Green?) I am. My plan is to take bus 14 (15-25-minute ride) or 20 (40-minute ride), for a $2 fare, to Providence (Kennedy Plaza) and then walk to the hotel. --Kevin From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Wed Apr 3 15:01:41 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:01:41 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <515C7B47.5050503@ultraslavonic.info> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> <515C7B47.5050503@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpd_jinb3J-RXNs5SFVo8F4ijHy0kTGtgxR_L04Tn6ZFVg@mail.gmail.com> That works perfectly. it will land you next to the hotel. --elli On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:56 PM, Kevin Hawkins < kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > On 4/3/2013 2:54 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > > Is anyone arriving at Providence airport? (TF Green?) > > I am. My plan is to take bus 14 (15-25-minute ride) or 20 (40-minute > ride), for a $2 fare, to Providence (Kennedy Plaza) and then walk to the > hotel. > > --Kevin > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 3 15:01:53 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 20:01:53 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <515C7CA1.9020507@retired.ox.ac.uk> Elli doesnt mention the third option, which is to take amtrak from south station. much quicker than the MBTA train, and the timing is better for our plane's arrival. but you have to book it in advance (online) On 03/04/13 19:54, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > Hi all council members: > > For travel from Logan to Providence, you have two options (I think I sent > them earlier) Amtrak is a 3rd and much worse one. > > 1. Peter Pan Bus (www.peterpanbus.com) Goes around to all the terminals, > runs about every 2 hours and comes directly to Providence. You get out not > at the 1st Providence exit (the Bonanza Bus Station), you stay on the bus > and go to Downtown Providence. You will be within a block of the Biltmore > when you arrive. (Sometimes you have to get off at the bus station and get > on another bus to go downtown, as they pool their passengers...) > Fare is @ $20 o/w, $40 r/t and you can get your ticket on the web ahead of > time. > > 2. Mass public transportation > At Logan, get on the Silver Line bus/subway ($2) to South Station. > At South Station, go to the train station, and buy a ticket for commuter > rail to Providence ($20). You can find a schedule here: > http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/lines/?route=PROVSTOU and make > sure to correcty press inbound/outbound. it's a bad interface. There an > MBTA phone app that may make buying a ticket easier. It's one of those > things where you buy the ticket and activate it before getting on train. No > standing in line. > > Is anyone arriving at Providence airport? (TF Green?) > > --elli > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk >> wrote: >> >> On 3 Apr 2013, at 19:35, "James Cummings" <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >> <mailto:james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk>> wrote: >> >> Maybe share these with the rest of the Council? Not that I don't trust >> you of course. >> >> Sigh. And I thought I had demonstrated my untrustworthiness so often to >> you all.. >> >> Onna bus, will send Lou's timing later. Basically, go to Boston south >> station and jump onna train. >> >> Sebastian >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Wed Apr 3 15:25:30 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 15:25:30 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <515C7CA1.9020507@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> <515C7CA1.9020507@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpc6b1B76F5YjKvXLLrcuqEOMWb2PCrVdRRPBQ_FVtsV-A@mail.gmail.com> Hi Lou, yes, Amtrak runs on the same lines and goes to the same stations as MBTA. It stops fewer times, but costs more, us locals don't ride it for such a short distance. Doesn't help that the one time I thought I was going to be efficient and return in time for a meeting never mind the cost, the train was 3 hours late (40 minute ride) because someone threw themselves in front of it half way there... But the T has gaps in the middle of the day. Looking forward to seeing you all here, some logistics will be following soon. --elli On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk>wrote: > Elli doesnt mention the third option, which is to take amtrak from south > station. much quicker than the MBTA train, and the timing is better for > our plane's arrival. but you have to book it in advance (online) > > > > > > On 03/04/13 19:54, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > > Hi all council members: > > > > For travel from Logan to Providence, you have two options (I think I sent > > them earlier) Amtrak is a 3rd and much worse one. > > > > 1. Peter Pan Bus (www.peterpanbus.com) Goes around to all the terminals, > > runs about every 2 hours and comes directly to Providence. You get out > not > > at the 1st Providence exit (the Bonanza Bus Station), you stay on the bus > > and go to Downtown Providence. You will be within a block of the Biltmore > > when you arrive. (Sometimes you have to get off at the bus station and > get > > on another bus to go downtown, as they pool their passengers...) > > Fare is @ $20 o/w, $40 r/t and you can get your ticket on the web ahead > of > > time. > > > > 2. Mass public transportation > > At Logan, get on the Silver Line bus/subway ($2) to South Station. > > At South Station, go to the train station, and buy a ticket for commuter > > rail to Providence ($20). You can find a schedule here: > > http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/lines/?route=PROVSTOU and > make > > sure to correcty press inbound/outbound. it's a bad interface. There an > > MBTA phone app that may make buying a ticket easier. It's one of those > > things where you buy the ticket and activate it before getting on train. > No > > standing in line. > > > > Is anyone arriving at Providence airport? (TF Green?) > > > > --elli > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Sebastian Rahtz < > sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk > >> wrote: > >> > >> On 3 Apr 2013, at 19:35, "James Cummings" <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > >> <mailto:james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk>> wrote: > >> > >> Maybe share these with the rest of the Council? Not that I don't trust > >> you of course. > >> > >> Sigh. And I thought I had demonstrated my untrustworthiness so often to > >> you all.. > >> > >> Onna bus, will send Lou's timing later. Basically, go to Boston south > >> station and jump onna train. > >> > >> Sebastian > >> -- > >> tei-council mailing list > >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > >> > >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > >> > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 3 15:46:53 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 12:46:53 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <515C872D.6030907@uvic.ca> Hi Elli, Is "Downtown Providence" what the Peter Pan Bus schedule refers to as "Prov K Plaza"? Cheers, Martin On 13-04-03 11:54 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > Hi all council members: > > For travel from Logan to Providence, you have two options (I think I sent > them earlier) Amtrak is a 3rd and much worse one. > > 1. Peter Pan Bus (www.peterpanbus.com) Goes around to all the terminals, > runs about every 2 hours and comes directly to Providence. You get out not > at the 1st Providence exit (the Bonanza Bus Station), you stay on the bus > and go to Downtown Providence. You will be within a block of the Biltmore > when you arrive. (Sometimes you have to get off at the bus station and get > on another bus to go downtown, as they pool their passengers...) > Fare is @ $20 o/w, $40 r/t and you can get your ticket on the web ahead of > time. > > 2. Mass public transportation > At Logan, get on the Silver Line bus/subway ($2) to South Station. > At South Station, go to the train station, and buy a ticket for commuter > rail to Providence ($20). You can find a schedule here: > http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/lines/?route=PROVSTOU and make > sure to correcty press inbound/outbound. it's a bad interface. There an > MBTA phone app that may make buying a ticket easier. It's one of those > things where you buy the ticket and activate it before getting on train. No > standing in line. > > Is anyone arriving at Providence airport? (TF Green?) > > --elli > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk >> wrote: > >> >> >> On 3 Apr 2013, at 19:35, "James Cummings" <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >> <mailto:james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk>> wrote: >> >> Maybe share these with the rest of the Council? Not that I don't trust >> you of course. >> >> Sigh. And I thought I had demonstrated my untrustworthiness so often to >> you all.. >> >> Onna bus, will send Lou's timing later. Basically, go to Boston south >> station and jump onna train. >> >> Sebastian >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From philomousos at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 16:04:53 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 16:04:53 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7C154482-62D6-4CBD-AF93-B0485D2131D9@gmail.com> I am. On the Thursday morning. What's the quickest way to get to where we're meeting? Hugh On Apr 3, 2013, at 14:54 , "Mylonas, Elli" <elli_mylonas at brown.edu> wrote: > Hi all council members: > > For travel from Logan to Providence, you have two options (I think I sent > them earlier) Amtrak is a 3rd and much worse one. > > 1. Peter Pan Bus (www.peterpanbus.com) Goes around to all the terminals, > runs about every 2 hours and comes directly to Providence. You get out not > at the 1st Providence exit (the Bonanza Bus Station), you stay on the bus > and go to Downtown Providence. You will be within a block of the Biltmore > when you arrive. (Sometimes you have to get off at the bus station and get > on another bus to go downtown, as they pool their passengers...) > Fare is @ $20 o/w, $40 r/t and you can get your ticket on the web ahead of > time. > > 2. Mass public transportation > At Logan, get on the Silver Line bus/subway ($2) to South Station. > At South Station, go to the train station, and buy a ticket for commuter > rail to Providence ($20). You can find a schedule here: > http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/lines/?route=PROVSTOU and make > sure to correcty press inbound/outbound. it's a bad interface. There an > MBTA phone app that may make buying a ticket easier. It's one of those > things where you buy the ticket and activate it before getting on train. No > standing in line. > > Is anyone arriving at Providence airport? (TF Green?) > > --elli > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk >> wrote: > >> >> >> On 3 Apr 2013, at 19:35, "James Cummings" <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >> <mailto:james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk>> wrote: >> >> Maybe share these with the rest of the Council? Not that I don't trust >> you of course. >> >> Sigh. And I thought I had demonstrated my untrustworthiness so often to >> you all.. >> >> Onna bus, will send Lou's timing later. Basically, go to Boston south >> station and jump onna train. >> >> Sebastian >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 3 17:23:10 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 22:23:10 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: logan-providence In-Reply-To: <5152EE9E.9000501@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5152EE9E.9000501@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515C9DBE.7080305@retired.ox.ac.uk> Here's the info I have (all from the Interweb) a) Bonanza Bus Leaves 1400 or 1630 (nothing in between), takes 90 mins, costs $38 return b) Metro Silver Line runs from all Logan terminals to South Station approx every 10 mins, journey time approx 20 mins, cost $2 Then you have a choice of MBTA train or Amtrak There are Amtrak departures from South Station at 1515 1520 1630 ; the first and last cost $46, the middle one costs $25 (first class) The MBTA line has departures at 1550 1601 1705 (nothing sfaics before then) and costs $12.50. Of course I am assuming in my European way that the trains stick more or less to the advertised timetables... From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 3 17:31:46 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 21:31:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: logan-providence In-Reply-To: <515C9DBE.7080305@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5152EE9E.9000501@retired.ox.ac.uk> <515C9DBE.7080305@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <e5d94acb-7b60-4d11-87de-af2870f68fd6@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 3 Apr 2013, at 22:23, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > There are Amtrak departures from South Station at 1515 1520 1630 ; the > first and last cost $46, the middle one costs $25 (first class) > and you're saying we have to book in advance for these, I think? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 3 17:35:52 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 22:35:52 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: logan-providence In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A19BFD5@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5152EE9E.9000501@retired.ox.ac.uk> <515C9DBE.7080305@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A19BFD5@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515CA0B8.6050001@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 03/04/13 22:31, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 3 Apr 2013, at 22:23, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: >> There are Amtrak departures from South Station at 1515 1520 1630 ; the >> first and last cost $46, the middle one costs $25 (first class) >> > and you're saying we have to book in advance for these, I think? dunno. i have bought mine in advance cos i am neurotic about such things, but I seem to remember just rolling up and buying my ticket on a previous occasion. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed Apr 3 17:39:45 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2013 17:39:45 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: logan-providence In-Reply-To: <515CA0B8.6050001@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5152EE9E.9000501@retired.ox.ac.uk> <515C9DBE.7080305@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A19BFD5@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <515CA0B8.6050001@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515CA1A1.2070500@ultraslavonic.info> On 4/3/2013 5:35 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 03/04/13 22:31, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> On 3 Apr 2013, at 22:23, Lou Burnard<lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> >> wrote: >>> There are Amtrak departures from South Station at 1515 1520 1630 ; the >>> first and last cost $46, the middle one costs $25 (first class) >>> >> and you're saying we have to book in advance for these, I think? > > dunno. i have bought mine in advance cos i am neurotic about such > things, but I seem to remember just rolling up and buying my ticket on a > previous occasion. You can buy an Amtrak ticket at the station, but it usually costs more than if you buy in advance because the cheaper tickets have already sold out. But if you miss your train because, say, your plane is late, you've got to buy a new ticket at the station anyway. An advantage to the MBTA, I suspect, is that there's just one price. From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 3 17:50:28 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 14:50:28 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: logan-providence In-Reply-To: <515CA1A1.2070500@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5152EE9E.9000501@retired.ox.ac.uk> <515C9DBE.7080305@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A19BFD5@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <515CA0B8.6050001@retired.ox.ac.uk> <515CA1A1.2070500@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <515CA424.7040507@uvic.ca> I bought a Peter Pan Bus ticket for the noon trip. We can see who has the best experience, train or bus. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-03 02:39 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 4/3/2013 5:35 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> On 03/04/13 22:31, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> On 3 Apr 2013, at 22:23, Lou Burnard<lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> >>> wrote: >>>> There are Amtrak departures from South Station at 1515 1520 1630 ; the >>>> first and last cost $46, the middle one costs $25 (first class) >>>> >>> and you're saying we have to book in advance for these, I think? >> >> dunno. i have bought mine in advance cos i am neurotic about such >> things, but I seem to remember just rolling up and buying my ticket on a >> previous occasion. > > You can buy an Amtrak ticket at the station, but it usually costs more > than if you buy in advance because the cheaper tickets have already sold > out. But if you miss your train because, say, your plane is late, > you've got to buy a new ticket at the station anyway. An advantage to > the MBTA, I suspect, is that there's just one price. > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Wed Apr 3 19:10:19 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:10:19 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <515C872D.6030907@uvic.ca> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> <515C872D.6030907@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpcDdfgpErwN6Ygz7Z2ZCQf=s6ASBi2Pkk-003Jch8Z2qw@mail.gmail.com> hi Martin - yes, K Plaza = Kennedy Plaza, which is the center of downtown Providence, also where the Biltmore is. thanks, -elli On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 3:46 PM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > Hi Elli, > > Is "Downtown Providence" what the Peter Pan Bus schedule refers to as > "Prov K Plaza"? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-04-03 11:54 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > > Hi all council members: > > > > For travel from Logan to Providence, you have two options (I think I sent > > them earlier) Amtrak is a 3rd and much worse one. > > > > 1. Peter Pan Bus (www.peterpanbus.com) Goes around to all the terminals, > > runs about every 2 hours and comes directly to Providence. You get out > not > > at the 1st Providence exit (the Bonanza Bus Station), you stay on the bus > > and go to Downtown Providence. You will be within a block of the Biltmore > > when you arrive. (Sometimes you have to get off at the bus station and > get > > on another bus to go downtown, as they pool their passengers...) > > Fare is @ $20 o/w, $40 r/t and you can get your ticket on the web ahead > of > > time. > > > > 2. Mass public transportation > > At Logan, get on the Silver Line bus/subway ($2) to South Station. > > At South Station, go to the train station, and buy a ticket for commuter > > rail to Providence ($20). You can find a schedule here: > > http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/lines/?route=PROVSTOU and > make > > sure to correcty press inbound/outbound. it's a bad interface. There an > > MBTA phone app that may make buying a ticket easier. It's one of those > > things where you buy the ticket and activate it before getting on train. > No > > standing in line. > > > > Is anyone arriving at Providence airport? (TF Green?) > > > > --elli > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Sebastian Rahtz < > sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk > >> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On 3 Apr 2013, at 19:35, "James Cummings" <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > >> <mailto:james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk>> wrote: > >> > >> Maybe share these with the rest of the Council? Not that I don't trust > >> you of course. > >> > >> Sigh. And I thought I had demonstrated my untrustworthiness so often to > >> you all.. > >> > >> Onna bus, will send Lou's timing later. Basically, go to Boston south > >> station and jump onna train. > >> > >> Sebastian > >> -- > >> tei-council mailing list > >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > >> > >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > >> > > -- > Martin Holmes > University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre > (mholmes at uvic.ca) > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Wed Apr 3 19:24:34 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:24:34 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <7C154482-62D6-4CBD-AF93-B0485D2131D9@gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> <7C154482-62D6-4CBD-AF93-B0485D2131D9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpdq8=N0pRguLLkZ3pOpLmwqtx4n_udXK1PB5BgtOWg6iA@mail.gmail.com> Depending on the time: There is a train (MBTA, as mentioned earlier) You'd have to hike up the hill (about 15 minutes) after arriving. There's one train at 8:01 and one at 9:26 The city bus, not rapid, but will drop you in the center of town. same walk more or less. it would be the 14 or the 20 as Kevin notes above. ($2, cash only). taxi - have them drop you at the Rockefeller library. It'll cost about $25 or $30 I think. They are pricey. What time are you arriving? --elli On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Hugh Cayless <philomousos at gmail.com> wrote: > I am. On the Thursday morning. What's the quickest way to get to where > we're meeting? > > Hugh > > On Apr 3, 2013, at 14:54 , "Mylonas, Elli" <elli_mylonas at brown.edu> wrote: > > > Hi all council members: > > > > For travel from Logan to Providence, you have two options (I think I sent > > them earlier) Amtrak is a 3rd and much worse one. > > > > 1. Peter Pan Bus (www.peterpanbus.com) Goes around to all the terminals, > > runs about every 2 hours and comes directly to Providence. You get out > not > > at the 1st Providence exit (the Bonanza Bus Station), you stay on the bus > > and go to Downtown Providence. You will be within a block of the Biltmore > > when you arrive. (Sometimes you have to get off at the bus station and > get > > on another bus to go downtown, as they pool their passengers...) > > Fare is @ $20 o/w, $40 r/t and you can get your ticket on the web ahead > of > > time. > > > > 2. Mass public transportation > > At Logan, get on the Silver Line bus/subway ($2) to South Station. > > At South Station, go to the train station, and buy a ticket for commuter > > rail to Providence ($20). You can find a schedule here: > > http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/lines/?route=PROVSTOU and > make > > sure to correcty press inbound/outbound. it's a bad interface. There an > > MBTA phone app that may make buying a ticket easier. It's one of those > > things where you buy the ticket and activate it before getting on train. > No > > standing in line. > > > > Is anyone arriving at Providence airport? (TF Green?) > > > > --elli > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Sebastian Rahtz < > sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk > >> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On 3 Apr 2013, at 19:35, "James Cummings" <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > >> <mailto:james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk>> wrote: > >> > >> Maybe share these with the rest of the Council? Not that I don't trust > >> you of course. > >> > >> Sigh. And I thought I had demonstrated my untrustworthiness so often to > >> you all.. > >> > >> Onna bus, will send Lou's timing later. Basically, go to Boston south > >> station and jump onna train. > >> > >> Sebastian > >> -- > >> tei-council mailing list > >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > >> > >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > >> > > -- > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > From philomousos at gmail.com Wed Apr 3 19:51:34 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 19:51:34 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpdq8=N0pRguLLkZ3pOpLmwqtx4n_udXK1PB5BgtOWg6iA@mail.gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> <7C154482-62D6-4CBD-AF93-B0485D2131D9@gmail.com> <CAMuBKpdq8=N0pRguLLkZ3pOpLmwqtx4n_udXK1PB5BgtOWg6iA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <FAC5F0A2-A207-46E0-933B-91CC3CE8286E@gmail.com> Supposedly about 10 minutes before 9:00 am, so I shall probably resort to a taxi in order not to be too late. Hugh On Apr 3, 2013, at 19:24 , "Mylonas, Elli" <elli_mylonas at brown.edu> wrote: > Depending on the time: > There is a train (MBTA, as mentioned earlier) You'd have to hike up the hill (about 15 minutes) after arriving. > There's one train at 8:01 and one at 9:26 > > The city bus, not rapid, but will drop you in the center of town. same walk more or less. > it would be the 14 or the 20 as Kevin notes above. ($2, cash only). > > taxi - have them drop you at the Rockefeller library. It'll cost about $25 or $30 I think. They are pricey. > > What time are you arriving? --elli > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Hugh Cayless <philomousos at gmail.com> wrote: > I am. On the Thursday morning. What's the quickest way to get to where we're meeting? > > Hugh > > On Apr 3, 2013, at 14:54 , "Mylonas, Elli" <elli_mylonas at brown.edu> wrote: > > > Hi all council members: > > > > For travel from Logan to Providence, you have two options (I think I sent > > them earlier) Amtrak is a 3rd and much worse one. > > > > 1. Peter Pan Bus (www.peterpanbus.com) Goes around to all the terminals, > > runs about every 2 hours and comes directly to Providence. You get out not > > at the 1st Providence exit (the Bonanza Bus Station), you stay on the bus > > and go to Downtown Providence. You will be within a block of the Biltmore > > when you arrive. (Sometimes you have to get off at the bus station and get > > on another bus to go downtown, as they pool their passengers...) > > Fare is @ $20 o/w, $40 r/t and you can get your ticket on the web ahead of > > time. > > > > 2. Mass public transportation > > At Logan, get on the Silver Line bus/subway ($2) to South Station. > > At South Station, go to the train station, and buy a ticket for commuter > > rail to Providence ($20). You can find a schedule here: > > http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/lines/?route=PROVSTOU and make > > sure to correcty press inbound/outbound. it's a bad interface. There an > > MBTA phone app that may make buying a ticket easier. It's one of those > > things where you buy the ticket and activate it before getting on train. No > > standing in line. > > > > Is anyone arriving at Providence airport? (TF Green?) > > > > --elli > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk > >> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On 3 Apr 2013, at 19:35, "James Cummings" <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > >> <mailto:james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk>> wrote: > >> > >> Maybe share these with the rest of the Council? Not that I don't trust > >> you of course. > >> > >> Sigh. And I thought I had demonstrated my untrustworthiness so often to > >> you all.. > >> > >> Onna bus, will send Lou's timing later. Basically, go to Boston south > >> station and jump onna train. > >> > >> Sebastian > >> -- > >> tei-council mailing list > >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > >> > >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > >> > > -- > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Wed Apr 3 20:18:49 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2013 20:18:49 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <FAC5F0A2-A207-46E0-933B-91CC3CE8286E@gmail.com> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> <7C154482-62D6-4CBD-AF93-B0485D2131D9@gmail.com> <CAMuBKpdq8=N0pRguLLkZ3pOpLmwqtx4n_udXK1PB5BgtOWg6iA@mail.gmail.com> <FAC5F0A2-A207-46E0-933B-91CC3CE8286E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpcGhSvX9ejXN7rC_GoRuVnvQ8Fyc3V6F=MjQwaGACy8gw@mail.gmail.com> taxi might be a good idea. The train might work, but it probably takes about 15 or so minutes to walk over there. --elli On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 7:51 PM, Hugh Cayless <philomousos at gmail.com> wrote: > Supposedly about 10 minutes before 9:00 am, so I shall probably resort to > a taxi in order not to be too late. > > Hugh > > On Apr 3, 2013, at 19:24 , "Mylonas, Elli" <elli_mylonas at brown.edu> wrote: > > > Depending on the time: > > There is a train (MBTA, as mentioned earlier) You'd have to hike up the > hill (about 15 minutes) after arriving. > > There's one train at 8:01 and one at 9:26 > > > > The city bus, not rapid, but will drop you in the center of town. same > walk more or less. > > it would be the 14 or the 20 as Kevin notes above. ($2, cash only). > > > > taxi - have them drop you at the Rockefeller library. It'll cost about > $25 or $30 I think. They are pricey. > > > > What time are you arriving? --elli > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 4:04 PM, Hugh Cayless <philomousos at gmail.com> > wrote: > > I am. On the Thursday morning. What's the quickest way to get to where > we're meeting? > > > > Hugh > > > > On Apr 3, 2013, at 14:54 , "Mylonas, Elli" <elli_mylonas at brown.edu> > wrote: > > > > > Hi all council members: > > > > > > For travel from Logan to Providence, you have two options (I think I > sent > > > them earlier) Amtrak is a 3rd and much worse one. > > > > > > 1. Peter Pan Bus (www.peterpanbus.com) Goes around to all the > terminals, > > > runs about every 2 hours and comes directly to Providence. You get out > not > > > at the 1st Providence exit (the Bonanza Bus Station), you stay on the > bus > > > and go to Downtown Providence. You will be within a block of the > Biltmore > > > when you arrive. (Sometimes you have to get off at the bus station and > get > > > on another bus to go downtown, as they pool their passengers...) > > > Fare is @ $20 o/w, $40 r/t and you can get your ticket on the web > ahead of > > > time. > > > > > > 2. Mass public transportation > > > At Logan, get on the Silver Line bus/subway ($2) to South Station. > > > At South Station, go to the train station, and buy a ticket for > commuter > > > rail to Providence ($20). You can find a schedule here: > > > http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/lines/?route=PROVSTOU and > make > > > sure to correcty press inbound/outbound. it's a bad interface. There an > > > MBTA phone app that may make buying a ticket easier. It's one of those > > > things where you buy the ticket and activate it before getting on > train. No > > > standing in line. > > > > > > Is anyone arriving at Providence airport? (TF Green?) > > > > > > --elli > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Sebastian Rahtz < > sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk > > >> wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> On 3 Apr 2013, at 19:35, "James Cummings" <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > > >> <mailto:james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk>> wrote: > > >> > > >> Maybe share these with the rest of the Council? Not that I don't > trust > > >> you of course. > > >> > > >> Sigh. And I thought I had demonstrated my untrustworthiness so often > to > > >> you all.. > > >> > > >> Onna bus, will send Lou's timing later. Basically, go to Boston south > > >> station and jump onna train. > > >> > > >> Sebastian > > >> -- > > >> tei-council mailing list > > >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > >> > > >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > >> > > > -- > > > tei-council mailing list > > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > > > > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Apr 4 06:01:32 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 11:01:32 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Approval of SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication. Message-ID: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> Dear TEI Technical Council, You may have noticed that in the agenda for the council meeting I added a: Approval of TEI-SIG for "Computer-Mediated Communication", but it occurs to me that this could probably just be done on the mailing list. Find attached (if the mailing list allows attachments, I've forgotten) a SIG proposal for a TEI SIG on computer-mediated communication. They also have a panel proposed for the TEI Conference (also attached). You may also remember their article in Issue 3 of the jTEI http://jtei.revues.org/476 coming out of their paper at the TEI conference in 2011. I can see no reason why we'd want to prevent formation of this SIG in any way as it doesn't significantly overlap with any of the existing SIGs. The purpose of the SIG is specifically to develop feature requests after discussion and investigation and present these to the council which is exactly the process we'd like SIGs to undertake. The precise proposals will be judged on their merits when they appear, though of course interested Council members are encouraged to join the SIG if we approve it. (And this reminds me that I should be editing http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/rules.xml to reflect the removal of the SIG Coordinator role and its duties having been merged into the Council Chair's.) Does anyone have any one have any comments on the approval or not of this SIG? If we agree it beforehand then that is one less item we need to discuss at the meeting. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tei-cmcsig-proposal.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 98928 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20130404/881a3ed7/attachment-0002.pdf -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TEIcmcpanel.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 50524 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20130404/881a3ed7/attachment-0003.pdf From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Apr 4 08:49:30 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 05:49:30 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Approval of SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication. In-Reply-To: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515D76DA.8080908@uvic.ca> This SIG looks great to me. They make a good case for the need they're addressing, they know how they want to address it, they have good collaborative links with other groups, and they're well organized. An enthusiastic yes from me. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-04 03:01 AM, James Cummings wrote: > Dear TEI Technical Council, > > You may have noticed that in the agenda for the council meeting I added a: > Approval of TEI-SIG for "Computer-Mediated Communication", but it occurs > to me that this could probably just be done on the mailing list. > > Find attached (if the mailing list allows attachments, I've forgotten) a > SIG proposal for a TEI SIG on computer-mediated communication. They also > have a panel proposed for the TEI Conference (also attached). > > You may also remember their article in Issue 3 of the jTEI > http://jtei.revues.org/476 coming out of their paper at the TEI > conference in 2011. > > I can see no reason why we'd want to prevent formation of this SIG in > any way as it doesn't significantly overlap with any of the existing > SIGs. The purpose of the SIG is specifically to develop feature requests > after discussion and investigation and present these to the council > which is exactly the process we'd like SIGs to undertake. The precise > proposals will be judged on their merits when they appear, though of > course interested Council members are encouraged to join the SIG if we > approve it. (And this reminds me that I should be editing > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/rules.xml to reflect the removal of > the SIG Coordinator role and its duties having been merged into the > Council Chair's.) > > Does anyone have any one have any comments on the approval or not of > this SIG? If we agree it beforehand then that is one less item we need > to discuss at the meeting. > > -James > > > From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Apr 4 09:54:09 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 09:54:09 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Approval of SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication. In-Reply-To: <515D76DA.8080908@uvic.ca> References: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> <515D76DA.8080908@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <515D8601.8050106@ultraslavonic.info> The proposal, on p.2 under "Members of the core group:", says that the core group will put their feature requests in SourceForge and then open up discussion. I take that to mean that they won't have an open list that others can join until they pull together these proposals. I'm not thrilled about this. While I have no problem with a group of people formulating proposals on their own and submitting them to SF without advertising their intentions in advance, I don't think the TEI-C should sponsor a SIG that works in a closed way. James, could you ask them to clarify this statement? Maybe I'm misunderstanding how they want to work. I would actually be fine if that "core group" put in their proposals and THEN we established the SIG to foster any discussion of the feature requests that people don't want to have on the SF tickets, or to discuss proposals additional feature requests that the core group didn't think of. Kevin On 4/4/2013 8:49 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > This SIG looks great to me. They make a good case for the need they're > addressing, they know how they want to address it, they have good > collaborative links with other groups, and they're well organized. An > enthusiastic yes from me. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-04-04 03:01 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> Dear TEI Technical Council, >> >> You may have noticed that in the agenda for the council meeting I added a: >> Approval of TEI-SIG for "Computer-Mediated Communication", but it occurs >> to me that this could probably just be done on the mailing list. >> >> Find attached (if the mailing list allows attachments, I've forgotten) a >> SIG proposal for a TEI SIG on computer-mediated communication. They also >> have a panel proposed for the TEI Conference (also attached). >> >> You may also remember their article in Issue 3 of the jTEI >> http://jtei.revues.org/476 coming out of their paper at the TEI >> conference in 2011. >> >> I can see no reason why we'd want to prevent formation of this SIG in >> any way as it doesn't significantly overlap with any of the existing >> SIGs. The purpose of the SIG is specifically to develop feature requests >> after discussion and investigation and present these to the council >> which is exactly the process we'd like SIGs to undertake. The precise >> proposals will be judged on their merits when they appear, though of >> course interested Council members are encouraged to join the SIG if we >> approve it. (And this reminds me that I should be editing >> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/rules.xml to reflect the removal of >> the SIG Coordinator role and its duties having been merged into the >> Council Chair's.) >> >> Does anyone have any one have any comments on the approval or not of >> this SIG? If we agree it beforehand then that is one less item we need >> to discuss at the meeting. >> >> -James >> >> >> From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Apr 4 11:05:12 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:05:12 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Approval of SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication. In-Reply-To: <515D8601.8050106@ultraslavonic.info> References: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> <515D76DA.8080908@uvic.ca> <515D8601.8050106@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <515D96A8.80407@it.ox.ac.uk> I've fed back this objection (and linked to this post on the open TEI Council Archives as a demonstration of precisely the openness you're requesting), and will forward any response I get. Best, -James On 04/04/13 14:54, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > The proposal, on p.2 under "Members of the core group:", says that the > core group will put their feature requests in SourceForge and then open > up discussion. I take that to mean that they won't have an open list > that others can join until they pull together these proposals. I'm not > thrilled about this. While I have no problem with a group of people > formulating proposals on their own and submitting them to SF without > advertising their intentions in advance, I don't think the TEI-C should > sponsor a SIG that works in a closed way. > > James, could you ask them to clarify this statement? Maybe I'm > misunderstanding how they want to work. I would actually be fine if > that "core group" put in their proposals and THEN we established the SIG > to foster any discussion of the feature requests that people don't want > to have on the SF tickets, or to discuss proposals additional feature > requests that the core group didn't think of. > > Kevin > > On 4/4/2013 8:49 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> This SIG looks great to me. They make a good case for the need they're >> addressing, they know how they want to address it, they have good >> collaborative links with other groups, and they're well organized. An >> enthusiastic yes from me. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-04-04 03:01 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>> Dear TEI Technical Council, >>> >>> You may have noticed that in the agenda for the council meeting I added a: >>> Approval of TEI-SIG for "Computer-Mediated Communication", but it occurs >>> to me that this could probably just be done on the mailing list. >>> >>> Find attached (if the mailing list allows attachments, I've forgotten) a >>> SIG proposal for a TEI SIG on computer-mediated communication. They also >>> have a panel proposed for the TEI Conference (also attached). >>> >>> You may also remember their article in Issue 3 of the jTEI >>> http://jtei.revues.org/476 coming out of their paper at the TEI >>> conference in 2011. >>> >>> I can see no reason why we'd want to prevent formation of this SIG in >>> any way as it doesn't significantly overlap with any of the existing >>> SIGs. The purpose of the SIG is specifically to develop feature requests >>> after discussion and investigation and present these to the council >>> which is exactly the process we'd like SIGs to undertake. The precise >>> proposals will be judged on their merits when they appear, though of >>> course interested Council members are encouraged to join the SIG if we >>> approve it. (And this reminds me that I should be editing >>> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/rules.xml to reflect the removal of >>> the SIG Coordinator role and its duties having been merged into the >>> Council Chair's.) >>> >>> Does anyone have any one have any comments on the approval or not of >>> this SIG? If we agree it beforehand then that is one less item we need >>> to discuss at the meeting. >>> >>> -James >>> >>> >>> -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Apr 4 11:59:53 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:59:53 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Approval of SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication. In-Reply-To: <515D96A8.80407@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> <515D76DA.8080908@uvic.ca> <515D8601.8050106@ultraslavonic.info> <515D96A8.80407@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515DA379.3010001@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi all, Michael's response is pasted below and is similar to Kevin's suggestion. What we would be doing now is approving that the SIG will be created, but later this year so it can have its first meeting at the TEI conference at which point its mailing list, discussions, etc. will be entirely open for all to join. So they are just going to go away as a private group and work up some initial proposals (which they are doing already for the conference), but knowing that we'll approve them as a SIG in time for them to have space/meeting at the conference at which point everything is open. (I.e. they don't want to spend lots of time working away on this without knowing we're going to approve them.) I don't honestly believe they wish to work in a closed manner, just get organised before launching themselves on the world and the Conference gives a good deadline. If that makes it clear, then shortly before the Conference, assuming that everything will be openly available, I'd be happy to 'pre-approve' them now and then do so officially as a "chair's action" shortly before the meeting without bothering Council with it again (unless their SIG proposal changes significantly). That way they don't need to wait ages for us to approve them at a busy point in time. Comments? === Dear James, thank you for forwarding the request from the Council to me. I absolutely understand the concerns of Kevin Hawkins concerning the 'openness' of the SIG. The idea to start working as a closed group first and then open the discussion for the public in a second step was just motivated by the intention to first come out with some first suggestions before starting into a broad discussion - in order to not have to deal with too many different input from too many sides at the very beginning. Since our own roadmap was to work out some first suggestions until October (see our panel proposal), then present them at the TEI conference and - at this stage of our work - open the discussion for everybody else, what would you say about the idea to officially get the SIG started on the occasion of the TEI members meeting in Rome? This would allow us to stick to our idea to first work on some first ideas + suggestions in a (pre-SIG) "core group", then present these first suggestions to the TEI public (= via sourceforge.net as well as - hopefully - in a panel) and then invite everybody who would like to contribute to become a part of the SIG's activities (= ideally, at a 1st meeting of the SIG at the conference). The work + discussions of the SIG - in the wiki, on SF, in the mailing list - would then completely be open to everybody who wants to participate. Please let me know if you find this a reasonable and adequate modus operandi for getting the SIG started. === On 04/04/13 16:05, James Cummings wrote: > > I've fed back this objection (and linked to this post on the open > TEI Council Archives as a demonstration of precisely the openness > you're requesting), and will forward any response I get. > > Best, > > -James > > On 04/04/13 14:54, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> The proposal, on p.2 under "Members of the core group:", says that the >> core group will put their feature requests in SourceForge and then open >> up discussion. I take that to mean that they won't have an open list >> that others can join until they pull together these proposals. I'm not >> thrilled about this. While I have no problem with a group of people >> formulating proposals on their own and submitting them to SF without >> advertising their intentions in advance, I don't think the TEI-C should >> sponsor a SIG that works in a closed way. >> >> James, could you ask them to clarify this statement? Maybe I'm >> misunderstanding how they want to work. I would actually be fine if >> that "core group" put in their proposals and THEN we established the SIG >> to foster any discussion of the feature requests that people don't want >> to have on the SF tickets, or to discuss proposals additional feature >> requests that the core group didn't think of. >> >> Kevin >> >> On 4/4/2013 8:49 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> This SIG looks great to me. They make a good case for the need they're >>> addressing, they know how they want to address it, they have good >>> collaborative links with other groups, and they're well organized. An >>> enthusiastic yes from me. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-04-04 03:01 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>>> Dear TEI Technical Council, >>>> >>>> You may have noticed that in the agenda for the council meeting I added a: >>>> Approval of TEI-SIG for "Computer-Mediated Communication", but it occurs >>>> to me that this could probably just be done on the mailing list. >>>> >>>> Find attached (if the mailing list allows attachments, I've forgotten) a >>>> SIG proposal for a TEI SIG on computer-mediated communication. They also >>>> have a panel proposed for the TEI Conference (also attached). >>>> >>>> You may also remember their article in Issue 3 of the jTEI >>>> http://jtei.revues.org/476 coming out of their paper at the TEI >>>> conference in 2011. >>>> >>>> I can see no reason why we'd want to prevent formation of this SIG in >>>> any way as it doesn't significantly overlap with any of the existing >>>> SIGs. The purpose of the SIG is specifically to develop feature requests >>>> after discussion and investigation and present these to the council >>>> which is exactly the process we'd like SIGs to undertake. The precise >>>> proposals will be judged on their merits when they appear, though of >>>> course interested Council members are encouraged to join the SIG if we >>>> approve it. (And this reminds me that I should be editing >>>> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/rules.xml to reflect the removal of >>>> the SIG Coordinator role and its duties having been merged into the >>>> Council Chair's.) >>>> >>>> Does anyone have any one have any comments on the approval or not of >>>> this SIG? If we agree it beforehand then that is one less item we need >>>> to discuss at the meeting. >>>> >>>> -James >>>> >>>> >>>> > > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu Apr 4 12:02:38 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 17:02:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Approval of SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication. In-Reply-To: <515DA379.3010001@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> <515D76DA.8080908@uvic.ca> <515D8601.8050106@ultraslavonic.info> <515D96A8.80407@it.ox.ac.uk> <515DA379.3010001@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515DA41E.3090501@kcl.ac.uk> Sounds reasonable to me. The only thing I'd stress is that if there's any chance of our supporting them in a practical way (funds, Council time and effort, space at conference, etc.) they'd need to be an open group by the time we approve that. But that sounds like exactly what they're suggesting, so I say +1 to James's suggestion below. G On 2013-04-04 16:59, James Cummings wrote: > > Hi all, > > Michael's response is pasted below and is similar to Kevin's > suggestion. What we would be doing now is approving that the SIG > will be created, but later this year so it can have its first > meeting at the TEI conference at which point its mailing list, > discussions, etc. will be entirely open for all to join. So they > are just going to go away as a private group and work up some > initial proposals (which they are doing already for the > conference), but knowing that we'll approve them as a SIG in time > for them to have space/meeting at the conference at which point > everything is open. (I.e. they don't want to spend lots of time > working away on this without knowing we're going to approve > them.) I don't honestly believe they wish to work in a closed > manner, just get organised before launching themselves on the > world and the Conference gives a good deadline. > > If that makes it clear, then shortly before the Conference, > assuming that everything will be openly available, I'd be happy > to 'pre-approve' them now and then do so officially as a "chair's > action" shortly before the meeting without bothering Council with > it again (unless their SIG proposal changes significantly). That > way they don't need to wait ages for us to approve them at a busy > point in time. > > Comments? > > === > Dear James, > > thank you for forwarding the request from the Council to me. I > absolutely > understand the concerns of Kevin Hawkins concerning the > 'openness' of the > SIG. The idea to start working as a closed group first and then > open the > discussion for the public in a second step was just motivated by the > intention to first come out with some first suggestions before > starting > into a broad discussion - in order to not have to deal with too many > different input from too many sides at the very beginning. > > Since our own roadmap was to work out some first suggestions > until October > (see our panel proposal), then present them at the TEI conference > and - at > this stage of our work - open the discussion for everybody else, what > would you say about the idea to officially get the SIG started on the > occasion of the TEI members meeting in Rome? This would allow us > to stick > to our idea to first work on some first ideas + suggestions in a > (pre-SIG) > "core group", then present these first suggestions to the TEI > public (= > via sourceforge.net as well as - hopefully - in a panel) and then > invite > everybody who would like to contribute to become a part of the SIG's > activities (= ideally, at a 1st meeting of the SIG at the > conference). The > work + discussions of the SIG - in the wiki, on SF, in the > mailing list - > would then completely be open to everybody who wants to participate. > > Please let me know if you find this a reasonable and adequate modus > operandi for getting the SIG started. > === > > > On 04/04/13 16:05, James Cummings wrote: >> >> I've fed back this objection (and linked to this post on the open >> TEI Council Archives as a demonstration of precisely the openness >> you're requesting), and will forward any response I get. >> >> Best, >> >> -James >> >> On 04/04/13 14:54, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> The proposal, on p.2 under "Members of the core group:", says that the >>> core group will put their feature requests in SourceForge and then open >>> up discussion. I take that to mean that they won't have an open list >>> that others can join until they pull together these proposals. I'm not >>> thrilled about this. While I have no problem with a group of people >>> formulating proposals on their own and submitting them to SF without >>> advertising their intentions in advance, I don't think the TEI-C should >>> sponsor a SIG that works in a closed way. >>> >>> James, could you ask them to clarify this statement? Maybe I'm >>> misunderstanding how they want to work. I would actually be fine if >>> that "core group" put in their proposals and THEN we established the SIG >>> to foster any discussion of the feature requests that people don't want >>> to have on the SF tickets, or to discuss proposals additional feature >>> requests that the core group didn't think of. >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> On 4/4/2013 8:49 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> This SIG looks great to me. They make a good case for the need they're >>>> addressing, they know how they want to address it, they have good >>>> collaborative links with other groups, and they're well organized. An >>>> enthusiastic yes from me. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On 13-04-04 03:01 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>>>> Dear TEI Technical Council, >>>>> >>>>> You may have noticed that in the agenda for the council meeting I added a: >>>>> Approval of TEI-SIG for "Computer-Mediated Communication", but it occurs >>>>> to me that this could probably just be done on the mailing list. >>>>> >>>>> Find attached (if the mailing list allows attachments, I've forgotten) a >>>>> SIG proposal for a TEI SIG on computer-mediated communication. They also >>>>> have a panel proposed for the TEI Conference (also attached). >>>>> >>>>> You may also remember their article in Issue 3 of the jTEI >>>>> http://jtei.revues.org/476 coming out of their paper at the TEI >>>>> conference in 2011. >>>>> >>>>> I can see no reason why we'd want to prevent formation of this SIG in >>>>> any way as it doesn't significantly overlap with any of the existing >>>>> SIGs. The purpose of the SIG is specifically to develop feature requests >>>>> after discussion and investigation and present these to the council >>>>> which is exactly the process we'd like SIGs to undertake. The precise >>>>> proposals will be judged on their merits when they appear, though of >>>>> course interested Council members are encouraged to join the SIG if we >>>>> approve it. (And this reminds me that I should be editing >>>>> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/rules.xml to reflect the removal of >>>>> the SIG Coordinator role and its duties having been merged into the >>>>> Council Chair's.) >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone have any one have any comments on the approval or not of >>>>> this SIG? If we agree it beforehand then that is one less item we need >>>>> to discuss at the meeting. >>>>> >>>>> -James >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> >> > > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Apr 4 12:07:39 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 09:07:39 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Approval of SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication. In-Reply-To: <515D96A8.80407@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> <515D76DA.8080908@uvic.ca> <515D8601.8050106@ultraslavonic.info> <515D96A8.80407@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515DA54B.8010308@uvic.ca> I took this to mean that the act of posting the FRs would be the catalyst for discussion. Not that no-one else would be able to join prior to that, just that it wouldn't be exactly clear what they'd be joining. Once they're a SIG and they have a mailing list, won't anyone be able to join? In other words, don't they open themselves up just by the act of becoming a SIG? Cheers, Martin On 13-04-04 08:05 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > I've fed back this objection (and linked to this post on the open > TEI Council Archives as a demonstration of precisely the openness > you're requesting), and will forward any response I get. > > Best, > > -James > > On 04/04/13 14:54, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> The proposal, on p.2 under "Members of the core group:", says that the >> core group will put their feature requests in SourceForge and then open >> up discussion. I take that to mean that they won't have an open list >> that others can join until they pull together these proposals. I'm not >> thrilled about this. While I have no problem with a group of people >> formulating proposals on their own and submitting them to SF without >> advertising their intentions in advance, I don't think the TEI-C should >> sponsor a SIG that works in a closed way. >> >> James, could you ask them to clarify this statement? Maybe I'm >> misunderstanding how they want to work. I would actually be fine if >> that "core group" put in their proposals and THEN we established the SIG >> to foster any discussion of the feature requests that people don't want >> to have on the SF tickets, or to discuss proposals additional feature >> requests that the core group didn't think of. >> >> Kevin >> >> On 4/4/2013 8:49 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> This SIG looks great to me. They make a good case for the need they're >>> addressing, they know how they want to address it, they have good >>> collaborative links with other groups, and they're well organized. An >>> enthusiastic yes from me. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-04-04 03:01 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>>> Dear TEI Technical Council, >>>> >>>> You may have noticed that in the agenda for the council meeting I added a: >>>> Approval of TEI-SIG for "Computer-Mediated Communication", but it occurs >>>> to me that this could probably just be done on the mailing list. >>>> >>>> Find attached (if the mailing list allows attachments, I've forgotten) a >>>> SIG proposal for a TEI SIG on computer-mediated communication. They also >>>> have a panel proposed for the TEI Conference (also attached). >>>> >>>> You may also remember their article in Issue 3 of the jTEI >>>> http://jtei.revues.org/476 coming out of their paper at the TEI >>>> conference in 2011. >>>> >>>> I can see no reason why we'd want to prevent formation of this SIG in >>>> any way as it doesn't significantly overlap with any of the existing >>>> SIGs. The purpose of the SIG is specifically to develop feature requests >>>> after discussion and investigation and present these to the council >>>> which is exactly the process we'd like SIGs to undertake. The precise >>>> proposals will be judged on their merits when they appear, though of >>>> course interested Council members are encouraged to join the SIG if we >>>> approve it. (And this reminds me that I should be editing >>>> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/rules.xml to reflect the removal of >>>> the SIG Coordinator role and its duties having been merged into the >>>> Council Chair's.) >>>> >>>> Does anyone have any one have any comments on the approval or not of >>>> this SIG? If we agree it beforehand then that is one less item we need >>>> to discuss at the meeting. >>>> >>>> -James >>>> >>>> >>>> > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Apr 4 12:17:17 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:17:17 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Approval of SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication. In-Reply-To: <515DA54B.8010308@uvic.ca> References: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> <515D76DA.8080908@uvic.ca> <515D8601.8050106@ultraslavonic.info> <515D96A8.80407@it.ox.ac.uk> <515DA54B.8010308@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <515DA78D.4090809@it.ox.ac.uk> If they post any FRs prior to becoming a SIG then they do so as private individuals not representing a SIG. If they do so after they are a SIG then they can certainly claim they are representing the SIG (but of course still have to do so as individuals since that is how SF works). Anything we give them (e.g. space at the conference) will be contingent on them already being an open SIG. -James On 04/04/13 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: > I took this to mean that the act of posting the FRs would be the > catalyst for discussion. Not that no-one else would be able to join > prior to that, just that it wouldn't be exactly clear what they'd be > joining. Once they're a SIG and they have a mailing list, won't anyone > be able to join? In other words, don't they open themselves up just by > the act of becoming a SIG? > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-04-04 08:05 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> >> I've fed back this objection (and linked to this post on the open >> TEI Council Archives as a demonstration of precisely the openness >> you're requesting), and will forward any response I get. >> >> Best, >> >> -James >> >> On 04/04/13 14:54, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> The proposal, on p.2 under "Members of the core group:", says that the >>> core group will put their feature requests in SourceForge and then open >>> up discussion. I take that to mean that they won't have an open list >>> that others can join until they pull together these proposals. I'm not >>> thrilled about this. While I have no problem with a group of people >>> formulating proposals on their own and submitting them to SF without >>> advertising their intentions in advance, I don't think the TEI-C should >>> sponsor a SIG that works in a closed way. >>> >>> James, could you ask them to clarify this statement? Maybe I'm >>> misunderstanding how they want to work. I would actually be fine if >>> that "core group" put in their proposals and THEN we established the SIG >>> to foster any discussion of the feature requests that people don't want >>> to have on the SF tickets, or to discuss proposals additional feature >>> requests that the core group didn't think of. >>> >>> Kevin >>> >>> On 4/4/2013 8:49 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> This SIG looks great to me. They make a good case for the need they're >>>> addressing, they know how they want to address it, they have good >>>> collaborative links with other groups, and they're well organized. An >>>> enthusiastic yes from me. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On 13-04-04 03:01 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>>>> Dear TEI Technical Council, >>>>> >>>>> You may have noticed that in the agenda for the council meeting I added a: >>>>> Approval of TEI-SIG for "Computer-Mediated Communication", but it occurs >>>>> to me that this could probably just be done on the mailing list. >>>>> >>>>> Find attached (if the mailing list allows attachments, I've forgotten) a >>>>> SIG proposal for a TEI SIG on computer-mediated communication. They also >>>>> have a panel proposed for the TEI Conference (also attached). >>>>> >>>>> You may also remember their article in Issue 3 of the jTEI >>>>> http://jtei.revues.org/476 coming out of their paper at the TEI >>>>> conference in 2011. >>>>> >>>>> I can see no reason why we'd want to prevent formation of this SIG in >>>>> any way as it doesn't significantly overlap with any of the existing >>>>> SIGs. The purpose of the SIG is specifically to develop feature requests >>>>> after discussion and investigation and present these to the council >>>>> which is exactly the process we'd like SIGs to undertake. The precise >>>>> proposals will be judged on their merits when they appear, though of >>>>> course interested Council members are encouraged to join the SIG if we >>>>> approve it. (And this reminds me that I should be editing >>>>> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/rules.xml to reflect the removal of >>>>> the SIG Coordinator role and its duties having been merged into the >>>>> Council Chair's.) >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone have any one have any comments on the approval or not of >>>>> this SIG? If we agree it beforehand then that is one less item we need >>>>> to discuss at the meeting. >>>>> >>>>> -James >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >> >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Apr 4 12:18:12 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:18:12 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Approval of SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication. In-Reply-To: <515DA78D.4090809@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> <515D76DA.8080908@uvic.ca> <515D8601.8050106@ultraslavonic.info> <515D96A8.80407@it.ox.ac.uk> <515DA54B.8010308@uvic.ca> <515DA78D.4090809@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515DA7C4.7030501@ultraslavonic.info> Okay, I'm fine with this plan! On 4/4/2013 12:17 PM, James Cummings wrote: > > If they post any FRs prior to becoming a SIG then they do so as > private individuals not representing a SIG. If they do so after > they are a SIG then they can certainly claim they are > representing the SIG (but of course still have to do so as > individuals since that is how SF works). > > Anything we give them (e.g. space at the conference) will be > contingent on them already being an open SIG. > > -James > > On 04/04/13 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I took this to mean that the act of posting the FRs would be the >> catalyst for discussion. Not that no-one else would be able to join >> prior to that, just that it wouldn't be exactly clear what they'd be >> joining. Once they're a SIG and they have a mailing list, won't anyone >> be able to join? In other words, don't they open themselves up just by >> the act of becoming a SIG? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-04-04 08:05 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>> >>> I've fed back this objection (and linked to this post on the open >>> TEI Council Archives as a demonstration of precisely the openness >>> you're requesting), and will forward any response I get. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> -James >>> >>> On 04/04/13 14:54, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>> The proposal, on p.2 under "Members of the core group:", says that the >>>> core group will put their feature requests in SourceForge and then open >>>> up discussion. I take that to mean that they won't have an open list >>>> that others can join until they pull together these proposals. I'm not >>>> thrilled about this. While I have no problem with a group of people >>>> formulating proposals on their own and submitting them to SF without >>>> advertising their intentions in advance, I don't think the TEI-C should >>>> sponsor a SIG that works in a closed way. >>>> >>>> James, could you ask them to clarify this statement? Maybe I'm >>>> misunderstanding how they want to work. I would actually be fine if >>>> that "core group" put in their proposals and THEN we established the SIG >>>> to foster any discussion of the feature requests that people don't want >>>> to have on the SF tickets, or to discuss proposals additional feature >>>> requests that the core group didn't think of. >>>> >>>> Kevin >>>> >>>> On 4/4/2013 8:49 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>> This SIG looks great to me. They make a good case for the need they're >>>>> addressing, they know how they want to address it, they have good >>>>> collaborative links with other groups, and they're well organized. An >>>>> enthusiastic yes from me. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> On 13-04-04 03:01 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>>>>> Dear TEI Technical Council, >>>>>> >>>>>> You may have noticed that in the agenda for the council meeting I added a: >>>>>> Approval of TEI-SIG for "Computer-Mediated Communication", but it occurs >>>>>> to me that this could probably just be done on the mailing list. >>>>>> >>>>>> Find attached (if the mailing list allows attachments, I've forgotten) a >>>>>> SIG proposal for a TEI SIG on computer-mediated communication. They also >>>>>> have a panel proposed for the TEI Conference (also attached). >>>>>> >>>>>> You may also remember their article in Issue 3 of the jTEI >>>>>> http://jtei.revues.org/476 coming out of their paper at the TEI >>>>>> conference in 2011. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can see no reason why we'd want to prevent formation of this SIG in >>>>>> any way as it doesn't significantly overlap with any of the existing >>>>>> SIGs. The purpose of the SIG is specifically to develop feature requests >>>>>> after discussion and investigation and present these to the council >>>>>> which is exactly the process we'd like SIGs to undertake. The precise >>>>>> proposals will be judged on their merits when they appear, though of >>>>>> course interested Council members are encouraged to join the SIG if we >>>>>> approve it. (And this reminds me that I should be editing >>>>>> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/rules.xml to reflect the removal of >>>>>> the SIG Coordinator role and its duties having been merged into the >>>>>> Council Chair's.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone have any one have any comments on the approval or not of >>>>>> this SIG? If we agree it beforehand then that is one less item we need >>>>>> to discuss at the meeting. >>>>>> >>>>>> -James >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>> >> > > From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Apr 4 12:30:54 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2013 17:30:54 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Approval of SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication. In-Reply-To: <515DA7C4.7030501@ultraslavonic.info> References: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> <515D76DA.8080908@uvic.ca> <515D8601.8050106@ultraslavonic.info> <515D96A8.80407@it.ox.ac.uk> <515DA54B.8010308@uvic.ca> <515DA78D.4090809@it.ox.ac.uk> <515DA7C4.7030501@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <515DAABE.1030402@it.ox.ac.uk> Assuming silence is assent I'll reply tomorrow (giving time for any other voices who want to speak up in the meantime) with something like the following: === The TEI Technical Council approves your application for a TEI SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication but in order to give you time to formulate the initial proposals which will be presented to the TEI Community the Technical Council is willing to post-date this approval until 26 August 2013 (about 6 weeks before the TEI Conference). At this point, unless the proposal for the SIG has changed significantly, it will be approved by the Technical Council Chair. From then on the TEI would request that all work done by the SIG be done so openly and anyone is allowed to join the SIG mailing lists, etc. The TEI is willing to provide mailing lists, web space, wiki space, and meeting space at the Conference to any approved SIG. === -James On 04/04/13 17:18, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Okay, I'm fine with this plan! > > On 4/4/2013 12:17 PM, James Cummings wrote: >> >> If they post any FRs prior to becoming a SIG then they do so as >> private individuals not representing a SIG. If they do so after >> they are a SIG then they can certainly claim they are >> representing the SIG (but of course still have to do so as >> individuals since that is how SF works). >> >> Anything we give them (e.g. space at the conference) will be >> contingent on them already being an open SIG. >> >> -James >> >> On 04/04/13 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> I took this to mean that the act of posting the FRs would be the >>> catalyst for discussion. Not that no-one else would be able to join >>> prior to that, just that it wouldn't be exactly clear what they'd be >>> joining. Once they're a SIG and they have a mailing list, won't anyone >>> be able to join? In other words, don't they open themselves up just by >>> the act of becoming a SIG? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-04-04 08:05 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>>> >>>> I've fed back this objection (and linked to this post on the open >>>> TEI Council Archives as a demonstration of precisely the openness >>>> you're requesting), and will forward any response I get. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> -James >>>> >>>> On 04/04/13 14:54, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>>> The proposal, on p.2 under "Members of the core group:", says that the >>>>> core group will put their feature requests in SourceForge and then open >>>>> up discussion. I take that to mean that they won't have an open list >>>>> that others can join until they pull together these proposals. I'm not >>>>> thrilled about this. While I have no problem with a group of people >>>>> formulating proposals on their own and submitting them to SF without >>>>> advertising their intentions in advance, I don't think the TEI-C should >>>>> sponsor a SIG that works in a closed way. >>>>> >>>>> James, could you ask them to clarify this statement? Maybe I'm >>>>> misunderstanding how they want to work. I would actually be fine if >>>>> that "core group" put in their proposals and THEN we established the SIG >>>>> to foster any discussion of the feature requests that people don't want >>>>> to have on the SF tickets, or to discuss proposals additional feature >>>>> requests that the core group didn't think of. >>>>> >>>>> Kevin >>>>> >>>>> On 4/4/2013 8:49 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>>> This SIG looks great to me. They make a good case for the need they're >>>>>> addressing, they know how they want to address it, they have good >>>>>> collaborative links with other groups, and they're well organized. An >>>>>> enthusiastic yes from me. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>> On 13-04-04 03:01 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>>>>>> Dear TEI Technical Council, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You may have noticed that in the agenda for the council meeting I added a: >>>>>>> Approval of TEI-SIG for "Computer-Mediated Communication", but it occurs >>>>>>> to me that this could probably just be done on the mailing list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Find attached (if the mailing list allows attachments, I've forgotten) a >>>>>>> SIG proposal for a TEI SIG on computer-mediated communication. They also >>>>>>> have a panel proposed for the TEI Conference (also attached). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You may also remember their article in Issue 3 of the jTEI >>>>>>> http://jtei.revues.org/476 coming out of their paper at the TEI >>>>>>> conference in 2011. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can see no reason why we'd want to prevent formation of this SIG in >>>>>>> any way as it doesn't significantly overlap with any of the existing >>>>>>> SIGs. The purpose of the SIG is specifically to develop feature requests >>>>>>> after discussion and investigation and present these to the council >>>>>>> which is exactly the process we'd like SIGs to undertake. The precise >>>>>>> proposals will be judged on their merits when they appear, though of >>>>>>> course interested Council members are encouraged to join the SIG if we >>>>>>> approve it. (And this reminds me that I should be editing >>>>>>> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/rules.xml to reflect the removal of >>>>>>> the SIG Coordinator role and its duties having been merged into the >>>>>>> Council Chair's.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does anyone have any one have any comments on the approval or not of >>>>>>> this SIG? If we agree it beforehand then that is one less item we need >>>>>>> to discuss at the meeting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -James >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From bbarney2 at unl.edu Thu Apr 4 12:56:53 2013 From: bbarney2 at unl.edu (Brett Barney) Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2013 16:56:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Approval of SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication. In-Reply-To: <515DAABE.1030402@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> <515D76DA.8080908@uvic.ca> <515D8601.8050106@ultraslavonic.info> <515D96A8.80407@it.ox.ac.uk> <515DA54B.8010308@uvic.ca> <515DA78D.4090809@it.ox.ac.uk> <515DA7C4.7030501@ultraslavonic.info> <515DAABE.1030402@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <296EFFCB-3D9F-437A-B0D5-D534F6CD3F83@unl.edu> James, Along with others who have responded, I think this is a positive development. Tiny edit: Could "At this point" change to "At that point"? Brett On Apr 4, 2013, at 11:30 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > Assuming silence is assent I'll reply tomorrow (giving time for > any other voices who want to speak up in the meantime) with > something like the following: > > === > The TEI Technical Council approves your application for a TEI SIG > for Computer-Mediated Communication but in order to give you time > to formulate the initial proposals which will be presented to the > TEI Community the Technical Council is willing to post-date this > approval until 26 August 2013 (about 6 weeks before the TEI > Conference). At this point, unless the proposal for the SIG has > changed significantly, it will be approved by the Technical > Council Chair. From then on the TEI would request that all work > done by the SIG be done so openly and anyone is allowed to join > the SIG mailing lists, etc. The TEI is willing to provide mailing > lists, web space, wiki space, and meeting space at the Conference > to any approved SIG. > === > > -James > > On 04/04/13 17:18, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> Okay, I'm fine with this plan! >> >> On 4/4/2013 12:17 PM, James Cummings wrote: >>> >>> If they post any FRs prior to becoming a SIG then they do so as >>> private individuals not representing a SIG. If they do so after >>> they are a SIG then they can certainly claim they are >>> representing the SIG (but of course still have to do so as >>> individuals since that is how SF works). >>> >>> Anything we give them (e.g. space at the conference) will be >>> contingent on them already being an open SIG. >>> >>> -James >>> >>> On 04/04/13 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> I took this to mean that the act of posting the FRs would be the >>>> catalyst for discussion. Not that no-one else would be able to join >>>> prior to that, just that it wouldn't be exactly clear what they'd be >>>> joining. Once they're a SIG and they have a mailing list, won't anyone >>>> be able to join? In other words, don't they open themselves up just by >>>> the act of becoming a SIG? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On 13-04-04 08:05 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I've fed back this objection (and linked to this post on the open >>>>> TEI Council Archives as a demonstration of precisely the openness >>>>> you're requesting), and will forward any response I get. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> -James >>>>> >>>>> On 04/04/13 14:54, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>>>> The proposal, on p.2 under "Members of the core group:", says that the >>>>>> core group will put their feature requests in SourceForge and then open >>>>>> up discussion. I take that to mean that they won't have an open list >>>>>> that others can join until they pull together these proposals. I'm not >>>>>> thrilled about this. While I have no problem with a group of people >>>>>> formulating proposals on their own and submitting them to SF without >>>>>> advertising their intentions in advance, I don't think the TEI-C should >>>>>> sponsor a SIG that works in a closed way. >>>>>> >>>>>> James, could you ask them to clarify this statement? Maybe I'm >>>>>> misunderstanding how they want to work. I would actually be fine if >>>>>> that "core group" put in their proposals and THEN we established the SIG >>>>>> to foster any discussion of the feature requests that people don't want >>>>>> to have on the SF tickets, or to discuss proposals additional feature >>>>>> requests that the core group didn't think of. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kevin >>>>>> >>>>>> On 4/4/2013 8:49 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>>>> This SIG looks great to me. They make a good case for the need they're >>>>>>> addressing, they know how they want to address it, they have good >>>>>>> collaborative links with other groups, and they're well organized. An >>>>>>> enthusiastic yes from me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 13-04-04 03:01 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>>>>>>> Dear TEI Technical Council, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You may have noticed that in the agenda for the council meeting I added a: >>>>>>>> Approval of TEI-SIG for "Computer-Mediated Communication", but it occurs >>>>>>>> to me that this could probably just be done on the mailing list. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Find attached (if the mailing list allows attachments, I've forgotten) a >>>>>>>> SIG proposal for a TEI SIG on computer-mediated communication. They also >>>>>>>> have a panel proposed for the TEI Conference (also attached). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You may also remember their article in Issue 3 of the jTEI >>>>>>>> http://jtei.revues.org/476 coming out of their paper at the TEI >>>>>>>> conference in 2011. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I can see no reason why we'd want to prevent formation of this SIG in >>>>>>>> any way as it doesn't significantly overlap with any of the existing >>>>>>>> SIGs. The purpose of the SIG is specifically to develop feature requests >>>>>>>> after discussion and investigation and present these to the council >>>>>>>> which is exactly the process we'd like SIGs to undertake. The precise >>>>>>>> proposals will be judged on their merits when they appear, though of >>>>>>>> course interested Council members are encouraged to join the SIG if we >>>>>>>> approve it. (And this reminds me that I should be editing >>>>>>>> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/rules.xml to reflect the removal of >>>>>>>> the SIG Coordinator role and its duties having been merged into the >>>>>>>> Council Chair's.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does anyone have any one have any comments on the approval or not of >>>>>>>> this SIG? If we agree it beforehand then that is one less item we need >>>>>>>> to discuss at the meeting. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -James >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> > > > -- > Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > ---------------- Brett Barney Associate Research Professor Center for Digital Research in the Humanities bbarney2 at unl.edu From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 07:07:00 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:07:00 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Face-to-face preparation Message-ID: <515EB054.5090107@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi Council, As part of your preparation for the face-to-face it would be good to familiarise yourself with and, where you have something useful to contribute, comment on any open feature requests or bugs. To do this in the new interface go to: http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/ or http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/ And I believe on the left-hand side you should see a 'search' that is 'Open Tickets'. To comment you'll have to be logged in. If we do this then none of the tickets should come as a surprise, and it will make deciding which you want to work on in our group breakout sessions easier. I've moved around some of the suggested items added to the agenda: http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2013-04 but please feel free to continue to add more. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Fri Apr 5 11:04:38 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 11:04:38 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences Message-ID: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> Hi all: Travel to Providence: This seems to have been thoroughly hashed out earlier. Don't hesitate to email Syd or me if you need any further information or if you are stuck somewhere. Wednesday: Early arrivals are welcome to get in touch and come up to campus for to visit and hang out. Thursday: I have a swipe card for each of you so you can get past the library lobby. So either Syd or I will be in the lobby at 8:30 in order to disburse the cards. I'll repeat this, but I'd like to have the cards back on Saturday, as they can be re-used. Food in General: Are there food allergies, issues, habits and preferences, that you want known before I buy shrimp flavored peanuts coated with bacon bits for snacks. (you can reply to me personally if you prefer) Food-Coffee and Snacks: I am planning on providing coffee in a box (1 box in the morning and 1 or 2 in the afternoon), a water boiler and tea bags for tea and various snacks (breads in the morning, cookies/trail mix in the afternoon) vel sim. If you think that most of us will prefer to go out and buy higher quality coffee or if you are all tea or water drinkers, then I won't bother. Same for snacks. Food-Lunch: Should it be provided or do we want to order in pizza or go out to nearby food places or the food trucks? Food-Dinner: Food preferences listed above will play into where we may go for dinner. However, I propose to invite you to dinner on Thursday chez Mylonas-Durand (TEI is treating, we're cooking), which will allow for more hanging out time, the ability to talk to more people than the one sitting next to you and so onl. Is that agreeable? I live close to campus, and we will provide rides home. Entertainment and Meeting Rooms: Thursday at 5:30 there is a great talk in the DSL (the space where we are having our meeting). We will have to clear out around 4:30 and move next door to allow for setup. However, the presentation is being given by John Cayley, one of our electronic writers, and he is planning on showing some code-based works (he does a lot of google hacking), but also performing a new piece, some kind of audio visual text based extravaganza. If you want to stay for that and do dinner afterwards, that would be great. It might set the schedule back by about 30 minutes, but well worth it. Thank you! --elli From philomousos at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 11:13:02 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 11:13:02 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <90179296-DC0D-4062-A28F-8904CB169E22@gmail.com> I'm allergic to shellfish, so I might pass on the nuts (though I suspect no shrimp were harmed in the production of their "flavor"). H On Apr 5, 2013, at 11:04 , "Mylonas, Elli" <elli_mylonas at brown.edu> wrote: > Are there food allergies, issues, habits and preferences, that you want > known before I buy shrimp flavored peanuts coated with bacon bits for > snacks. From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 11:15:09 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:15:09 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <515EEA7D.3070504@kcl.ac.uk> On 2013-04-05 16:04, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > Travel to Providence: > This seems to have been thoroughly hashed out earlier. Don't hesitate to > email Syd or me if you need any further information or if you are stuck > somewhere. I'll reply off-list re this, as I have a couple questions that won't interest anyone else... > Food in General: > Are there food allergies, issues, habits and preferences, that you want > known before I buy shrimp flavored peanuts coated with bacon bits for > snacks. (you can reply to me personally if you prefer) Vegan (or more specifically, vegetarian who doesn't eat cow's milk or eggs; i.o.w.: almost-vegan but has a weakness for goat cheese ;-) ). Call me vegan for the sake of catering. > Food-Coffee and Snacks: > I am planning on providing coffee in a box (1 box in the morning and 1 or 2 > in the afternoon), a water boiler and tea bags for tea and various snacks > (breads in the morning, cookies/trail mix in the afternoon) vel sim. If you > think that most of us will prefer to go out and buy higher quality coffee > or if you are all tea or water drinkers, then I won't bother. Same for > snacks. I don't drink coffee. Vegan trail mix sounds good. :-) > Food-Lunch: > Should it be provided or do we want to order in pizza or go out to nearby > food places or the food trucks? I'm always in favour of getting up and leaving the building for lunch. A change of scene is important for recharging batteries, unwinding from intense discussions, and digesting healthily. (Especially for this of us with jetlag...) > Food-Dinner: > Food preferences listed above will play into where we may go for dinner. > However, I propose to invite you to dinner on Thursday chez Mylonas-Durand > (TEI is treating, we're cooking), which will allow for more hanging out > time, the ability to talk to more people than the one sitting next to you > and so onl. Is that agreeable? I live close to campus, and we will provide Sounds great to me! > Entertainment and Meeting Rooms: Will we also get to play with your departmental WiiFit in breaks? ;-) G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 11:22:43 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:22:43 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <515EEC43.80306@it.ox.ac.uk> On 05/04/13 16:04, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > Hi all: > > Travel to Providence: > This seems to have been thoroughly hashed out earlier. Don't hesitate to > email Syd or me if you need any further information or if you are stuck > somewhere. > > Wednesday: > Early arrivals are welcome to get in touch and come up to campus for to > visit and hang out. I don't think I'll be there early, but perhaps in time for supper. Should we arrange to meet at the Biltmore Lobby at a particular time? 7pm? > Thursday: > I have a swipe card for each of you so you can get past the library lobby. > So either Syd or I will be in the lobby at 8:30 in order to disburse the > cards. I'll repeat this, but I'd like to have the cards back on Saturday, > as they can be re-used. > > Food in General: > Are there food allergies, issues, habits and preferences, that you want > known before I buy shrimp flavored peanuts coated with bacon bits for > snacks. (you can reply to me personally if you prefer) I have no food allergies but don't mind admitting publicly that I dislike coffee, raspberries, and cream cheese. Shrimp-flavoured peanutes coated with bacon bits would be just fine. (For some value of 'fine' meaning 'sounds disgusting'.) > Food-Coffee and Snacks: > I am planning on providing coffee in a box (1 box in the morning and 1 or 2 > in the afternoon), a water boiler and tea bags for tea and various snacks > (breads in the morning, cookies/trail mix in the afternoon) vel sim. If you > think that most of us will prefer to go out and buy higher quality coffee > or if you are all tea or water drinkers, then I won't bother. Same for > snacks. I don't drink coffee because it tastes icky whatever the quality. I'd be happy with tea or happy to bring my own water or more likely caffeine laden fizzy drink. But I will happily snack almost continuously on any snacks available and then regret it later. > Food-Lunch: > Should it be provided or do we want to order in pizza or go out to nearby > food places or the food trucks? I'm very undiscriminating when it comes to food and eat almost anything (except those things I dislike mentioned above, and even some of those if I'm trying to be polite). I'll leave it to more cultivated palettes to comment. > Food-Dinner: > Food preferences listed above will play into where we may go for dinner. > However, I propose to invite you to dinner on Thursday chez Mylonas-Durand > (TEI is treating, we're cooking), which will allow for more hanging out > time, the ability to talk to more people than the one sitting next to you > and so onl. Is that agreeable? I live close to campus, and we will provide > rides home. Sounds good to me. Can you give me (offlist fine) an estimate as to the expense? > Entertainment and Meeting Rooms: > Thursday at 5:30 there is a great talk in the DSL (the space where we are > having our meeting). We will have to clear out around 4:30 and move next > door to allow for setup. However, the presentation is being given by John > Cayley, one of our electronic writers, and he is planning on showing some > code-based works (he does a lot of google hacking), but also performing a > new piece, some kind of audio visual text based extravaganza. If you want > to stay for that and do dinner afterwards, that would be great. It might > set the schedule back by about 30 minutes, but well worth it. This sounds like fun to me. As I've said the schedule at http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2013-04 is flexible so we can push dinner slightly later. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Fri Apr 5 11:30:59 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 11:30:59 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <90179296-DC0D-4062-A28F-8904CB169E22@gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <90179296-DC0D-4062-A28F-8904CB169E22@gmail.com> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpf=8deasSxoMoUP2SdzmYOtu47ijyGWRPYijJAAvr03cw@mail.gmail.com> hah - bacon bits probably never been near a pig, either. I worry that an atrocity such as shrimp flavored peanuts with bacon bits actually exists... -elli On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Hugh Cayless <philomousos at gmail.com> wrote: > I'm allergic to shellfish, so I might pass on the nuts (though I suspect > no shrimp were harmed in the production of their "flavor"). > > H > > On Apr 5, 2013, at 11:04 , "Mylonas, Elli" <elli_mylonas at brown.edu> wrote: > > Are there food allergies, issues, habits and preferences, that you want > known before I buy shrimp flavored peanuts coated with bacon bits for > snacks. > > > From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 11:31:07 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 16:31:07 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Food per diem amounts Message-ID: <515EEE3B.9030309@it.ox.ac.uk> A reminder that the maximum per diem for all meals for a TEI council meeting is $71/day. These come from the GSA rates at http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/104877 (when the location is within the US, we use the State Department's rates http://aoprals.state.gov/web920/per_diem.asp when outside). Previously we've broken these into Breakfast/Lunch/Dinner to match the http://www.tei-c.org/Admin/TEI_travel_form.pdf but that is the target that you should be trying to keep under if you don't want to be out-of-pocket. In the cases where we are all having a meal out together it has often been the case that someone whose credit card is in local US currency will pay and then submit a full and detailed receipt to be reimbursed for this. (This stops extra expenses from exchange rates, etc.) In cases where someone pays then you should _not_ claim for that meal, lest JohnU get confused. Best, -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Apr 5 11:37:51 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 11:37:51 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Food per diem amounts In-Reply-To: <515EEE3B.9030309@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <515EEE3B.9030309@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20830.61391.457067.797281@emt.ad.brown.edu> Personally, I'd be hard pressed to spend 70 USD here in Providence on food in one day. And I'm (once again) happy to be the slug who pays for group meals. I agree with Gabby, I thinmk stepping out for lunch in smaller groups is a good idea. > A reminder that the maximum per diem for all meals for a TEI > council meeting is $71/day. > > These come from the GSA rates at > http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/104877 (when the location is > within the US, we use the State Department's rates > http://aoprals.state.gov/web920/per_diem.asp when outside). > > Previously we've broken these into Breakfast/Lunch/Dinner to > match the > > http://www.tei-c.org/Admin/TEI_travel_form.pdf > > but that is the target that you should be trying to keep under if > you don't want to be out-of-pocket. > > In the cases where we are all having a meal out together it has > often been the case that someone whose credit card is in local US > currency will pay and then submit a full and detailed receipt to > be reimbursed for this. (This stops extra expenses from exchange > rates, etc.) In cases where someone pays then you should _not_ > claim for that meal, lest JohnU get confused. From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Fri Apr 5 11:59:25 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 11:59:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <515EEC43.80306@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EEC43.80306@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051144210.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Surprisingly, I can echo almost everything James said. Exceptions noted below. pfs On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, James Cummings wrote: >> Travel to Providence: >> Wednesday: >> Early arrivals are welcome to get in touch and come up to campus for to >> visit and hang out. I'm actually arriving Tuesday afternoon, and plan to spend Wednesday in Boston visiting my daughter, itinerary subject to her whim. She tells me that she plans to get married in two months, and we have not actually discussed this. I'm a little afraid. > Sould we arrange to meet at the Biltmore Lobby at a particular time? 7pm? If I'm back by then, sure. See above. >> Thursday: >> I have a swipe card for each of you so you can get past the library lobby. >> So either Syd or I will be in the lobby at 8:30 in order to disburse the >> cards. 8:30 it is. Out of the curiosity, is the library commonly known as "the library"? or "Rock?" or something else entirely? Ours, for example, is usually called "Hatcher" or "The Grad"; whereas the library next door is officially, and increasingly, known as "Shapiro" but used to be known, aptly, as "The UGLI". >> Food in General: >> Are there food allergies, issues, habits and preferences, that you want >> known before I buy shrimp flavored peanuts coated with bacon bits for >> snacks. (you can reply to me personally if you prefer) > > I have no food allergies but don't mind admitting publicly that I > dislike coffee, raspberries, and cream cheese. Shrimp-flavoured > peanutes coated with bacon bits would be just fine. (For some > value of 'fine' meaning 'sounds disgusting'.) I've never tried coffee, so I can't say; tend to avoid seafood but not with conviction. Love raspberries and cream cheese (yes, and custard too.) Shrimp-flavored peanuts are a SE Asian thing, I believe (Vietnamese and Thai?) but I gather are not always taken to well by newcomers http://getoffthetrail.com/2012/08/08/shrimp-flavored-peanuts-237-of-365/ The bacon bits, I think, you'd have to add yourself. >> Food-Coffee and Snacks: >> I am planning on providing coffee in a box (1 box in the morning and 1 or 2 >> in the afternoon), a water boiler and tea bags for tea and various snacks >> (breads in the morning, cookies/trail mix in the afternoon) vel sim. If you >> think that most of us will prefer to go out and buy higher quality coffee >> or if you are all tea or water drinkers, then I won't bother. Same for >> snacks. > > I don't drink coffee because it tastes icky whatever the quality. > I'd be happy with tea or happy to bring my own water or more > likely caffeine laden fizzy drink. But I will happily snack > almost continuously on any snacks available and then regret it > later. Ditto to all of the above. >> Food-Lunch: >> Should it be provided or do we want to order in pizza or go out to nearby >> food places or the food trucks? > > I'm very undiscriminating when it comes to food and eat almost > anything (except those things I dislike mentioned above, and even > some of those if I'm trying to be polite). I'll leave it to more > cultivated palettes to comment. Ditto. >> Food-Dinner: >> Food preferences listed above will play into where we may go for dinner. >> However, I propose to invite you to dinner on Thursday chez Mylonas-Durand >> (TEI is treating, we're cooking), which will allow for more hanging out >> time, the ability to talk to more people than the one sitting next to you >> and so onl. Is that agreeable? I live close to campus, and we will provide >> rides home. > > Sounds good to me. Ditto. >> Entertainment and Meeting Rooms: >> Thursday at 5:30 there is a great talk in the DSL (the space where we are >> having our meeting). We will have to clear out around 4:30 and move next >> door to allow for setup. However, the presentation is being given by John >> Cayley, one of our electronic writers, and he is planning on showing some >> code-based works (he does a lot of google hacking), but also performing a >> new piece, some kind of audio visual text based extravaganza. If you want >> to stay for that and do dinner afterwards, that would be great. It might >> set the schedule back by about 30 minutes, but well worth it. > > This sounds like fun to me. Ditto? pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Fri Apr 5 12:14:19 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:14:19 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051144210.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EEC43.80306@it.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051144210.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpd0rKiif_Jg+9wa4MGnYLRmvpTt0tsHUqmF+6VuUx6JGw@mail.gmail.com> Important piece of information: we are meeting in the Rockefeller Library, which is known as the Rock. It is on on the corner of Prospect and College Streets. Paul can walk up Angell St, turn left at Prospect. Total walking time: less than 20 mins. The Biltmore gang will walk to Westminster St. turn left and walk east, cross the river, go straight up College St and arrive at the Rock at the top of the hill. It's steep but brief. Total walking time, again, about 20 minutes or less. -15 Westminster St. is the Rhode Island School of Design Library, an incredibly neat repurposing of a bank to make an art school library. Worth going in at some point. -The Providence Athenaeum is at the corner of College and Benefit, part way up the hill, a very nice and quite old subscription library. Worth going in, but not open at 8 in the morning. If there are issues with walking, there are taxis, and we can perhaps arrange for a ride. --elli From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Fri Apr 5 12:15:50 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:15:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April In-Reply-To: <515C7B47.5050503@ultraslavonic.info> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> <FE43E450-12AB-4B87-96D9-98D8EC7CBBB9@it.ox.ac.uk> <fuuxe7asynv1jxl2fr6k188h.1365014113667@email.android.com> <09e1f69d-5eda-4c23-aec5-24d5cee215b6@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpc2h=Y10D17ne4HZ5aUHKLZvFdSnA2mAQBv18K8=AmDoA@mail.gmail.com> <515C7B47.5050503@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051212290.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> I'm flying into PVD as well, but on Tuesday afternoon. Left myself plenty of time to find the bus, orient myself, climb the hill, and my B&B. The only real question is whether I can squeeze a week's worth of stuff into a carryon. I've never tried before. If the weather is like it is here (temps ranging from 21 to 55 F in the course of a day) it may be tricky. pfs On Wed, 3 Apr 2013, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 4/3/2013 2:54 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >> Is anyone arriving at Providence airport? (TF Green?) > > I am. My plan is to take bus 14 (15-25-minute ride) or 20 (40-minute > ride), for a $2 fare, to Providence (Kennedy Plaza) and then walk to the > hotel. > > --Kevin > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Apr 5 12:27:08 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 09:27:08 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <515EEC43.80306@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EEC43.80306@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515EFB5C.4010303@uvic.ca> Hi all, On 13-04-05 08:22 AM, James Cummings wrote: > On 05/04/13 16:04, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >> Wednesday: >> Early arrivals are welcome to get in touch and come up to campus for to >> visit and hang out. > > I don't think I'll be there early, but perhaps in time for > supper. Should we arrange to meet at the Biltmore Lobby at a > particular time? 7pm? That suits me. I should get to the Biltmore in the afternoon, but I suspect I'll doze for a couple of hours before dinner (overnight flight). >> Food in General: >> Are there food allergies, issues, habits and preferences, that you want >> known before I buy shrimp flavored peanuts coated with bacon bits for >> snacks. (you can reply to me personally if you prefer) No allergies or prejudices. I don't like Japanese natto, or durian. Other than that, anything. >> Food-Coffee and Snacks: >> I am planning on providing coffee in a box (1 box in the morning and 1 or 2 >> in the afternoon), a water boiler and tea bags for tea and various snacks >> (breads in the morning, cookies/trail mix in the afternoon) vel sim. If you >> think that most of us will prefer to go out and buy higher quality coffee >> or if you are all tea or water drinkers, then I won't bother. Same for >> snacks. Both cofee and tea will be welcome, ditto for snacks. I'm not a coffee snob. >> Food-Lunch: >> Should it be provided or do we want to order in pizza or go out to nearby >> food places or the food trucks? The main thing with lunch is to manage it so it doesn't take up two hours. In the past, when we've all trooped off to a distant restaurant, the usual problems with marshalling ten people and rounding up the distracted has meant that lunch has expanded a bit; that's not so much of a problem in the sense that we're usually "working" (talking about TEI stuff) anyway over lunch, but if the restaurant is noisy or if we're dispersed across multiple tables that's not very effective. If there are nearby places where we'd be able to sit together and chat comfortably, that would be great; otherwise I'm just fine with ordering in pizza, Chinese food or whatever. >> Food-Dinner: >> Food preferences listed above will play into where we may go for dinner. >> However, I propose to invite you to dinner on Thursday chez Mylonas-Durand >> (TEI is treating, we're cooking), which will allow for more hanging out >> time, the ability to talk to more people than the one sitting next to you >> and so onl. Is that agreeable? I live close to campus, and we will provide >> rides home. Sounds great! Looking forward to it. >> Entertainment and Meeting Rooms: >> Thursday at 5:30 there is a great talk in the DSL (the space where we are >> having our meeting). We will have to clear out around 4:30 and move next >> door to allow for setup. However, the presentation is being given by John >> Cayley, one of our electronic writers, and he is planning on showing some >> code-based works (he does a lot of google hacking), but also performing a >> new piece, some kind of audio visual text based extravaganza. If you want >> to stay for that and do dinner afterwards, that would be great. It might >> set the schedule back by about 30 minutes, but well worth it. Also sounds good. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Apr 5 12:42:00 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 12:42:00 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> Let me join in the fun with my list of preferences ... On 4/5/2013 11:04 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > Food in General: > Are there food allergies, issues, habits and preferences, that you want > known before I buy shrimp flavored peanuts coated with bacon bits for > snacks. (you can reply to me personally if you prefer) No. > Food-Coffee and Snacks: > I am planning on providing coffee in a box (1 box in the morning and 1 or 2 > in the afternoon), a water boiler and tea bags for tea and various snacks > (breads in the morning, cookies/trail mix in the afternoon) vel sim. If you > think that most of us will prefer to go out and buy higher quality coffee > or if you are all tea or water drinkers, then I won't bother. Same for > snacks. Cheap coffee and tea are fine with me. > Food-Lunch: > Should it be provided or do we want to order in pizza or go out to nearby > food places or the food trucks? I recall that James was particularly fascinated with food-truck culture in America, and since we had only one to choose from in College Station, I think a visit to the local selection, weather permitting, would be lovely. > Food-Dinner: > Food preferences listed above will play into where we may go for dinner. > However, I propose to invite you to dinner on Thursday chez Mylonas-Durand > (TEI is treating, we're cooking), which will allow for more hanging out > time, the ability to talk to more people than the one sitting next to you > and so onl. Is that agreeable? I live close to campus, and we will provide > rides home. This would be even more lovely. I look forward to it. > Entertainment and Meeting Rooms: > Thursday at 5:30 there is a great talk in the DSL (the space where we are > having our meeting). We will have to clear out around 4:30 and move next > door to allow for setup. However, the presentation is being given by John > Cayley, one of our electronic writers, and he is planning on showing some > code-based works (he does a lot of google hacking), but also performing a > new piece, some kind of audio visual text based extravaganza. If you want > to stay for that and do dinner afterwards, that would be great. It might > set the schedule back by about 30 minutes, but well worth it. Fine with me! K. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 12:50:41 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 16:50:41 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> i have no known allergies and think all the arrangements look great. since I don't know what a food truck is, I want to try one. i like short lunches. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Apr 5 13:00:10 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:00:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304051257430.43419@lister.ei.virginia.edu> On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > i have no known allergies and think all the arrangements look great. > > since I don't know what a food truck is, I want to try one. i like short lunches. A Google Image search for "food truck" is quite entertaining. Ditto "taco truck", which is the elder brother/sister of its Anglicized versions in North America. -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400314, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4314 USA Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Fri Apr 5 13:04:02 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > since I don't know what a food truck is, I'm sure I've seen some in Oxford, no? Perhaps just off of St Aldate's, somewhere between Pembroke St and Rose Pl ? pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Fri Apr 5 13:06:56 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:06:56 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <CAMuBKpc5WKjOG0No-qSGdX7XycjduCVtdWBeKjn4EESsW5U3YA@mail.gmail.com> Truck tweets att: http://blogs.providencejournal.com/arts-entertainment/lifestyles/food-dining/providence-food-trucks.html On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Paul F. Schaffner <PFSchaffner at umich.edu>wrote: > On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > > since I don't know what a food truck is, > > I'm sure I've seen some in Oxford, no? Perhaps just off of > St Aldate's, somewhere between Pembroke St and Rose Pl ? > > pfs > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ > 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Fri Apr 5 13:07:15 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051306580.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Paul F. Schaffner wrote: > On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> since I don't know what a food truck is, > > I'm sure I've seen some in Oxford, no? Perhaps just off of > St Aldate's, somewhere between Pembroke St and Rose Pl ? Perhaps in Pembroke Sq. pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 13:09:41 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:09:41 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AF05E@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 5 Apr 2013, at 18:04, "Paul F. Schaffner" <PFSchaffner at umich.edu> wrote: > On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> since I don't know what a food truck is, > > I'm sure I've seen some in Oxford, no? Perhaps just off of > St Aldate's, somewhere between Pembroke St and Rose Pl ? oh dear god, you mean a kebab van? i'll bring some antiobiotics. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 13:12:51 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:12:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpc5WKjOG0No-qSGdX7XycjduCVtdWBeKjn4EESsW5U3YA@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <CAMuBKpc5WKjOG0No-qSGdX7XycjduCVtdWBeKjn4EESsW5U3YA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AF155@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 5 Apr 2013, at 18:06, "Mylonas, Elli" <elli_mylonas at brown.edu> wrote: > Truck tweets att: > http://blogs.providencejournal.com/arts-entertainment/lifestyles/food-dining/providence-food-trucks.html > i assume its not as nice as that all implies? but hey I'll try anything once. and I already tried tripe soup, in Bulgaria, thanks. _once_, i said. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Apr 5 13:15:07 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 13:15:07 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AF05E@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AF05E@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515F069B.4040100@ultraslavonic.info> On 4/5/2013 1:09 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 5 Apr 2013, at 18:04, "Paul F. Schaffner"<PFSchaffner at umich.edu> > wrote: > >> On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >>> since I don't know what a food truck is, >> >> I'm sure I've seen some in Oxford, no? Perhaps just off of >> St Aldate's, somewhere between Pembroke St and Rose Pl ? > > > oh dear god, you mean a kebab van? > > i'll bring some antiobiotics. No, no -- this is what James noted was so different. While we've long had cheap fast food from trucks/vans, the trend these days is toward upscale (read: often overpriced) fusion cuisine catering to foodies. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 13:21:44 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:21:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <515F069B.4040100@ultraslavonic.info> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AF05E@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <515F069B.4040100@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AF29A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 5 Apr 2013, at 18:15, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > > the trend these days is toward > upscale (read: often overpriced) fusion cuisine catering to foodies. ok, that sounds like me. count me in for the duck sausage. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Apr 5 13:26:40 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:26:40 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AF155@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <CAMuBKpc5WKjOG0No-qSGdX7XycjduCVtdWBeKjn4EESsW5U3YA@mail.gmail.com> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AF155@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20831.2384.233428.932844@emt.ad.brown.edu> There are almost half-a-dozen food trucks in the local area for lunch. They are not included in this summary of nearby places to eat: http://www.wwp.brown.edu/outreach/seminars/cust_2013-05/logistics.html#eateries There is also a link to a map showing where the Rock library is near the top of that page. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Apr 5 13:38:42 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:38:42 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <50F8C1A5.8050701@uvic.ca> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> <50F8B442.4040802@ultraslavonic.info> <50F8C1A5.8050701@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20831.3106.761143.147697@emt.ad.brown.edu> [Catching up on mail ... expect quite a few responses to old e-mail from me in the near future.] At first glance, I like this idea. I wonder where in the Guidelines source ODD files we would put the Schematron code for an element that is not being defined. > Sebastian suggested using Schematron to warn when an element is > deprecated, but that's probably not so good because it will annoy > people still using it. However, we could use Schematron _after_ a > deprecated element is finally deleted, to trap for its presence and > explain that it was previously deprecated and is now gone. That > would only hit people once, when they update their schema after the > deletion, and it would provide a helpful explanation for a > situation which might otherwise take them by surprise or puzzle > them. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Apr 5 14:07:17 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 14:07:17 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <510CB4E9.70205@uvic.ca> References: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> <510600D6.50303@uvic.ca> <510C89F7.10408@ultraslavonic.info> <510CB4E9.70205@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20831.4821.669172.492313@emt.ad.brown.edu> I'm not sure whether or not Martin's (nice) idea meets accessibility criteria, either. But I think it leads us to a greater point than footnotes. We should probably start thinking about how to get a web accessibility appraisal of the Guidelines in HTML (at least). Do we have any in-house expertise in this area? Just popping the TOC page through WAVE yields 4 errors and 577 alerts. > > Regarding the display of footnotes in the HTML version of the > > Guidelines, Martin says: > > > > On 1/27/13 11:38 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > > > > [. . .] > > > >> I've also been meaning to make those footnotes actually pop up > >> next to the footnote number so you don't bounce down to the bottom > >> of the page and bounce back. Does everyone think that would be a > >> good idea? It would be like the footnotes on a page like this: > >> > >> <http://bcgenesis.uvic.ca/getDoc.htm?id=V465HB01.scx> > >> > >> (Scroll down till you see the grey button with "1" on it, and > >> click it.) > > > > Do these meet accessibility guidelines? I would prefer that any > > solution we implement be fully accessible. > > On that page, the footnotes are all listed at the bottom of the > document. IIRC, what I do is to make a copy of the footnote node, > strip its @id attribute (so that it doesn't end up with the same id > as the original), and then show it in the popup. The original > footnote is still there to view if you want to scroll down to it. I > don't think there are any accessibility issues with this -- a screen > reader, for instance, can read the whole page with footnotes > included, and can also read the popup when it appears presumably -- > but I'm not an expert in accessibility. From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 14:29:13 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 19:29:13 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <515F069B.4040100@ultraslavonic.info> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AF05E@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <515F069B.4040100@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <515F17F9.5090001@it.ox.ac.uk> On 05/04/13 18:15, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>> since I don't know what a food truck is, >>> I'm sure I've seen some in Oxford, no? Perhaps just off of >>> St Aldate's, somewhere between Pembroke St and Rose Pl ? >> oh dear god, you mean a kebab van? >> i'll bring some antiobiotics. > No, no -- this is what James noted was so different. While we've long > had cheap fast food from trucks/vans, the trend these days is toward > upscale (read: often overpriced) fusion cuisine catering to foodies. Yes, what I was curious about in College Station at the Conference was that they made such a big deal out of it. The one we used in College Station was just as Kevin describes, better food quality than the typical kebab/burger/chips/chicken vans that are in every major city in the UK but the quality so far has not been anywhere near the level of pretension and/or reverence locals seem to have for them. Decent, edible food, but vastly overpriced for what it is, even when fairly cheap. ;-) But as I've said, I'll eat almost anything (though that doesn't stop me recognising some meals are better than others), and I'm happy to provide a review of the ones in Providence after the fact. ;-) I agree in general that we want something that gets us up and walking around, doesn't take too long, cost too much, but allows us to talk comfortably. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Research Support, IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Apr 5 14:49:42 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 11:49:42 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AF155@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <CAMuBKpc5WKjOG0No-qSGdX7XycjduCVtdWBeKjn4EESsW5U3YA@mail.gmail.com> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AF155@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515F1CC6.6020706@uvic.ca> > and I already tried tripe soup, in Bulgaria, thanks. _once_, i said. Don't impugn the nobility of tripe. I grew up eating tripe once a week. Delicious. And I've had tripe soup in Thessaloniki a few times, also delicious. Excellent hangover-fender-offer, if imbibed just before dawn. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-05 10:12 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 5 Apr 2013, at 18:06, "Mylonas, Elli" <elli_mylonas at brown.edu> > wrote: > >> Truck tweets att: >> http://blogs.providencejournal.com/arts-entertainment/lifestyles/food-dining/providence-food-trucks.html >> > > > i assume its not as nice as that all implies? but hey I'll try anything once. > > and I already tried tripe soup, in Bulgaria, thanks. _once_, i said. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Apr 5 15:26:29 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:26:29 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <20831.4821.669172.492313@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> <510600D6.50303@uvic.ca> <510C89F7.10408@ultraslavonic.info> <510CB4E9.70205@uvic.ca> <20831.4821.669172.492313@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <515F2565.6000600@uvic.ca> On 13-04-05 11:07 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > I'm not sure whether or not Martin's (nice) idea meets accessibility > criteria, either. I think it does: the footnotes still appear at the bottom of the page, as they do now. When you click on the note number, a copy is made of the note from the bottom, and the copy is shown to you in the margin. We should set it up so that, if you have JavaScript turned off, or it's unavailable, the original linking system works as before, but if you have JavaScript, you get the popups instead (and in either case, the notes still appear at the bottom). But it does mean adding some JavaScript to the Guidelines. There is some already, of course, so this isn't breaking new ground. > But I think it leads us to a greater point than > footnotes. We should probably start thinking about how to get a web > accessibility appraisal of the Guidelines in HTML (at least). Do we > have any in-house expertise in this area? Not me. My experience with those automated testers has not been encouraging. The one from years ago (what was it called?) used to complain that the answers and feedback for multiple choice questions were hidden from view -- which of course they should be, till you make a choice. Cheers, Martin > Just popping the TOC page through WAVE yields 4 errors and 577 > alerts. > > >>> Regarding the display of footnotes in the HTML version of the >>> Guidelines, Martin says: >>> >>> On 1/27/13 11:38 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> >>> [. . .] >>> >>>> I've also been meaning to make those footnotes actually pop up >>>> next to the footnote number so you don't bounce down to the bottom >>>> of the page and bounce back. Does everyone think that would be a >>>> good idea? It would be like the footnotes on a page like this: >>>> >>>> <http://bcgenesis.uvic.ca/getDoc.htm?id=V465HB01.scx> >>>> >>>> (Scroll down till you see the grey button with "1" on it, and >>>> click it.) >>> >>> Do these meet accessibility guidelines? I would prefer that any >>> solution we implement be fully accessible. >> >> On that page, the footnotes are all listed at the bottom of the >> document. IIRC, what I do is to make a copy of the footnote node, >> strip its @id attribute (so that it doesn't end up with the same id >> as the original), and then show it in the popup. The original >> footnote is still there to view if you want to scroll down to it. I >> don't think there are any accessibility issues with this -- a screen >> reader, for instance, can read the whole page with footnotes >> included, and can also read the popup when it appears presumably -- >> but I'm not an expert in accessibility. -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Fri Apr 5 15:33:10 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 15:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <515F17F9.5090001@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AF05E@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <515F069B.4040100@ultraslavonic.info> <515F17F9.5090001@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051528300.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> FWIW, I've arranged to hire a car on Saturday afternoon (at PVD), with the intent of driving down to Sandywoods in Tiverton (well south along the east side of the bay, past Fall River), where The Kennedys (Pete and Maura Kennedy) will be performing a 7 pm concert. In the unlikely event that this interests anyone, passengers (especially passengers able to read a map and navigate in real time) are welcome. pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 15:37:03 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 19:37:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <20831.4821.669172.492313@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> <510600D6.50303@uvic.ca> <510C89F7.10408@ultraslavonic.info> <510CB4E9.70205@uvic.ca> <20831.4821.669172.492313@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1B0951@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 5 Apr 2013, at 19:07, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at BROWN.EDU> wrote: > We should probably start thinking about how to get a web > accessibility appraisal of the Guidelines in HTML (at least). Do we > have any in-house expertise in this area? > > Just popping the TOC page through WAVE yields 4 errors and 577 > alerts. It would make sense to consider a general UX review of the HTML Guidelines, of which accessibility review of that mechanical type would be part. its a possible useful way to spend money, I think. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 15:42:40 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 19:42:40 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1B0951@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> <510600D6.50303@uvic.ca> <510C89F7.10408@ultraslavonic.info> <510CB4E9.70205@uvic.ca> <20831.4821.669172.492313@emt.ad.brown.edu>, <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1B0951@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <f23fac8f-c012-41db-a44f-6117bb58ff54@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Would this be another possible code bounty? If we are adding more javascript to the Guidelines bit of the site would it be good to standardise on a Cross browser library like jQuery rather than lots of bespoke /individualistic code? James -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: On 5 Apr 2013, at 19:07, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at BROWN.EDU> wrote: > We should probably start thinking about how to get a web > accessibility appraisal of the Guidelines in HTML (at least). Do we > have any in-house expertise in this area? > > Just popping the TOC page through WAVE yields 4 errors and 577 > alerts. It would make sense to consider a general UX review of the HTML Guidelines, of which accessibility review of that mechanical type would be part. its a possible useful way to spend money, I think. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Apr 5 15:46:15 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 12:46:15 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <20831.3106.761143.147697@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> <50F8B442.4040802@ultraslavonic.info> <50F8C1A5.8050701@uvic.ca> <20831.3106.761143.147697@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <515F2A07.9080701@uvic.ca> On 13-04-05 10:38 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > [Catching up on mail ... expect quite a few responses to old e-mail > from me in the near future.] > > At first glance, I like this idea. I wonder where in the Guidelines > source ODD files we would put the Schematron code for an element that > is not being defined. TEI, or teiCorpus? <assert test="not(descendant::deletedElement"> The deletedElement element was deprecated for several years, and was finally deleted in TEI release x.y.z. </assert> Cheers, Martin >> Sebastian suggested using Schematron to warn when an element is >> deprecated, but that's probably not so good because it will annoy >> people still using it. However, we could use Schematron _after_ a >> deprecated element is finally deleted, to trap for its presence and >> explain that it was previously deprecated and is now gone. That >> would only hit people once, when they update their schema after the >> deletion, and it would provide a helpful explanation for a >> situation which might otherwise take them by surprise or puzzle >> them. -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Apr 5 16:01:32 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 13:01:32 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <f23fac8f-c012-41db-a44f-6117bb58ff54@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> <510600D6.50303@uvic.ca> <510C89F7.10408@ultraslavonic.info> <510CB4E9.70205@uvic.ca> <20831.4821.669172.492313@emt.ad.brown.edu>, <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1B0951@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <f23fac8f-c012-41db-a44f-6117bb58ff54@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <515F2D9C.1040003@uvic.ca> On 13-04-05 12:42 PM, James Cummings wrote: > > Would this be another possible code bounty? > > If we are adding more javascript to the Guidelines bit of the site > would it be good to standardise on a Cross browser library like > jQuery rather than lots of bespoke /individualistic code? I hate introducing a dependency on something as vast as JQuery when you could perfectly well write it in 30 lines of standard JavaScript. If we could demonstrate that we have a need for enough of the JQuery functionality to justify including it (and updating and testing it etc.), then it would be worth it, but for a little popup window thing it would be ridiculous, I think. Cheers, Martin > > James > > > -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > > Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > On 5 Apr 2013, at 19:07, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at BROWN.EDU> wrote: > >> We should probably start thinking about how to get a web >> accessibility appraisal of the Guidelines in HTML (at least). Do >> we have any in-house expertise in this area? >> >> Just popping the TOC page through WAVE yields 4 errors and 577 >> alerts. > > > It would make sense to consider a general UX review of the HTML > Guidelines, of which accessibility review of that mechanical type > would be part. its a possible useful way to spend money, I think. > -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of > Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 > 283431 > > -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 16:05:03 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 20:05:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <515F2D9C.1040003@uvic.ca> References: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> <510600D6.50303@uvic.ca> <510C89F7.10408@ultraslavonic.info> <510CB4E9.70205@uvic.ca> <20831.4821.669172.492313@emt.ad.brown.edu>, <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1B0951@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <f23fac8f-c012-41db-a44f-6117bb58ff54@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>, <515F2D9C.1040003@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <6ewjc88fsqifwchnh3p6awwp.1365192300268@email.android.com> I was thinking that we already have at least 3 or 4 uses of javascript and lots of places where we good provide progressive enhancement. But in general I agree. James -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: On 13-04-05 12:42 PM, James Cummings wrote: > > Would this be another possible code bounty? > > If we are adding more javascript to the Guidelines bit of the site > would it be good to standardise on a Cross browser library like > jQuery rather than lots of bespoke /individualistic code? I hate introducing a dependency on something as vast as JQuery when you could perfectly well write it in 30 lines of standard JavaScript. If we could demonstrate that we have a need for enough of the JQuery functionality to justify including it (and updating and testing it etc.), then it would be worth it, but for a little popup window thing it would be ridiculous, I think. Cheers, Martin > > James > > > -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > > Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > On 5 Apr 2013, at 19:07, Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at BROWN.EDU> wrote: > >> We should probably start thinking about how to get a web >> accessibility appraisal of the Guidelines in HTML (at least). Do >> we have any in-house expertise in this area? >> >> Just popping the TOC page through WAVE yields 4 errors and 577 >> alerts. > > > It would make sense to consider a general UX review of the HTML > Guidelines, of which accessibility review of that mechanical type > would be part. its a possible useful way to spend money, I think. > -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of > Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 > 283431 > > -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 16:07:03 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 20:07:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] where to put bibliographic citations in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <515F2D9C.1040003@uvic.ca> References: <51058288.1040801@ultraslavonic.info> <F72500ED-4B35-4131-A4D4-FC72C2F74BF6@it.ox.ac.uk> <510600D6.50303@uvic.ca> <510C89F7.10408@ultraslavonic.info> <510CB4E9.70205@uvic.ca> <20831.4821.669172.492313@emt.ad.brown.edu>, <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1B0951@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <f23fac8f-c012-41db-a44f-6117bb58ff54@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <515F2D9C.1040003@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1B0EA1@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 5 Apr 2013, at 21:01, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > I hate introducing a dependency on something as vast as JQuery when you > could perfectly well write it in 30 lines of standard JavaScript. If we > could demonstrate that we have a need for enough of the JQuery > functionality to justify including it (and updating and testing it > etc.), then it would be worth it, but for a little popup window thing it > would be ridiculous, I think. we already have jQuery in the guidelines html, soz. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Apr 5 17:16:34 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Query to TEI-C about encoding texts in Coptic Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304051714550.47178@lister.ei.virginia.edu> This came to me via our (almost never used) contact form (http://www.tei-c.org/include/contact/contact.php). I'm clueless. I could post a query on her behalf to TEI-L, suggest she do so herself, or... any other suggestions? (It's not really a TEI question per se but someone in the community may know the best tool.) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:23:16 -0400 (EDT) From: van den kerchove <petosiris33 at gmail.com> To: dsewell at virginia.edu Subject: TEI Contact Form [priority=Normal]: font Name: van den kerchove Email: petosiris33 at gmail.com Subject: font Priority: Normal Message: I do not know if it is the correct place for my question. Since last Septembre, I use TEI to encod some ancient texts. I would like to use coptic unicode font (Ifao N copte). But I do no manage to write in Coptic with neither oxygen nor other editor. Could you help me ? Sincerely yours, Anna Van den KErchove IP: 88.171.191.132 HOST: mar75-9-88-171-191-132.fbx.proxad.net From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Apr 5 17:28:51 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 17:28:51 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Query to TEI-C about encoding texts in Coptic In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304051714550.47178@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304051714550.47178@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <515F4213.1060003@ultraslavonic.info> I don't read enough French to know for sure, but it appears that the people who make that font also make a keyboard layout that works a bit like CJK layouts, where you type in transliteration and it converts to the characters you want: http://www.ifao.egnet.net/publications/outils/polices/ Alternatively, there's http://ucbclassics.dreamhosters.com/djm/coptic.html and https://sites.google.com/site/pisakho/fonts that each explain other input methods. (I found all of this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_alphabet#External_links .) --K. On 4/5/2013 5:16 PM, David Sewell wrote: > This came to me via our (almost never used) contact form > (http://www.tei-c.org/include/contact/contact.php). > > I'm clueless. I could post a query on her behalf to TEI-L, suggest she do so > herself, or... any other suggestions? (It's not really a TEI question per se but > someone in the community may know the best tool.) > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:23:16 -0400 (EDT) > From: van den kerchove<petosiris33 at gmail.com> > To: dsewell at virginia.edu > Subject: TEI Contact Form [priority=Normal]: font > > Name: van den kerchove > > Email: petosiris33 at gmail.com > > Subject: font > > Priority: Normal > > Message: I do not know if it is the correct place for my question. > > Since last Septembre, I use TEI to encod some ancient texts. I would > like to use coptic unicode font (Ifao N copte). But I do no manage to > write in Coptic with neither oxygen nor other editor. Could you help > me ? > > Sincerely yours, > > Anna Van den KErchove > > IP: 88.171.191.132 > HOST: mar75-9-88-171-191-132.fbx.proxad.net > From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 5 17:31:43 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 21:31:43 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Query to TEI-C about encoding texts in Coptic In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304051714550.47178@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304051714550.47178@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <rle074qgrfust9x69gv863c0.1365197500216@email.android.com> Definitely seems worth her posting to TEI-l for the benefit of others and a wider audience who may be able to help. James -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford David Sewell <dsewell at virginia.edu> wrote: This came to me via our (almost never used) contact form (http://www.tei-c.org/include/contact/contact.php). I'm clueless. I could post a query on her behalf to TEI-L, suggest she do so herself, or... any other suggestions? (It's not really a TEI question per se but someone in the community may know the best tool.) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:23:16 -0400 (EDT) From: van den kerchove <petosiris33 at gmail.com> To: dsewell at virginia.edu Subject: TEI Contact Form [priority=Normal]: font Name: van den kerchove Email: petosiris33 at gmail.com Subject: font Priority: Normal Message: I do not know if it is the correct place for my question. Since last Septembre, I use TEI to encod some ancient texts. I would like to use coptic unicode font (Ifao N copte). But I do no manage to write in Coptic with neither oxygen nor other editor. Could you help me ? Sincerely yours, Anna Van den KErchove IP: 88.171.191.132 HOST: mar75-9-88-171-191-132.fbx.proxad.net -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From philomousos at gmail.com Fri Apr 5 17:47:06 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:47:06 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Query to TEI-C about encoding texts in Coptic In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304051714550.47178@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304051714550.47178@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <CAObhq+fBgjDm5Pdpt9sBsbV2SmkRDHvR8GBo4O=RTVOU-HNf_g@mail.gmail.com> The MARKUP list might be a good venue for asking too. I know people who do work on Coptic. I can ask them. On Apr 5, 2013 5:16 PM, "David Sewell" <dsewell at virginia.edu> wrote: > This came to me via our (almost never used) contact form > (http://www.tei-c.org/include/contact/contact.php). > > I'm clueless. I could post a query on her behalf to TEI-L, suggest she do > so > herself, or... any other suggestions? (It's not really a TEI question per > se but > someone in the community may know the best tool.) > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:23:16 -0400 (EDT) > From: van den kerchove <petosiris33 at gmail.com> > To: dsewell at virginia.edu > Subject: TEI Contact Form [priority=Normal]: font > > Name: van den kerchove > > Email: petosiris33 at gmail.com > > Subject: font > > Priority: Normal > > Message: I do not know if it is the correct place for my question. > > Since last Septembre, I use TEI to encod some ancient texts. I would > like to use coptic unicode font (Ifao N copte). But I do no manage to > write in Coptic with neither oxygen nor other editor. Could you help > me ? > > Sincerely yours, > > Anna Van den KErchove > > IP: 88.171.191.132 > HOST: mar75-9-88-171-191-132.fbx.proxad.net > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Apr 6 10:39:58 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 10:39:58 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] data.code and data.word In-Reply-To: <510C4D82.6030405@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <E5CD1A79-6E06-458D-88EB-62F50E3DE282@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <AE53FDC7-1E76-4249-94FF-4E2B7EEFFA23@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <510BF46A.1040207@uvic.ca> <510C4D82.6030405@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20832.13246.61457.507245@emt.ad.brown.edu> I see that I'm way too late, data.code has already been removed. And since it never lived up to its aspirations, that may not be such a bad thing. But I still think that a mechanism for expressing a controlled vocabulary in an individual file's TEI header (rather than in its ODD like data.enumerated) is a good idea. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Apr 6 11:26:00 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 11:26:00 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <5113014B.7050504@uvic.ca> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> <474E1ADD-AD52-4E16-A159-E5FD91994612@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113014B.7050504@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20832.16008.769431.895366@emt.ad.brown.edu> [Continuing old thread ...] I think Martin has hit a nail on the head, here, and that the idea of separating out the renditional semantics of list/@type into our trio of renditional attrs is a good one. As for leaving @type to mean "of" the same way we do with name/@type is worth discussion. But to re-iterate the point about "ordered": I think of it as a type (although not an "of" type), not a rendition. To explain -- all lists are inherintly ordered, but for some the order matters (sequence of steps to remove a HDD from a laptop), and others it does not (typical shopping list). Either might have labels that are numbers; either might not. Perhaps a better value would be "toBeTakenInSequence". > >> I think the core problem here is that we've been using @type on > >> <list> for all these years when we should have been using @rend. > > > > yes and no. I can't shake my conviction that every _modern_ system > > does make that fundamental distinction between the ordered and > > unordered list. Yes of course we are about transcribing what we > > see, but those modern things didnt appear from nowhere. > > But the same thing applies to italics, or drop-caps, doesn't it? As > Syd says, lists are ordered and can't be otherwise; the issue is > whether they're explicitly numbered, and that's a typographical > rendition issue. I think the unfortunate issue of HTML ul/ol versus > the CSS that should do the job (list-style-type), but which only came > later, has confused our thinking on this. If there were a true > difference in type, wouldn't TEI have created two separate elements? > > >> Doesn't this > >> sound more sane? > >> > >> @rend="bulleted" > >> @rend="numbered" > >> @rend="simple" > > well, sort of. I've always disliked the over-specific "bulleted", > > and I've never understood "simple" but I accept thats my problem > > :-{ > > At least "bulleted" is a clear description of the rendering of the > list. > > >> The only value of @type that really looks like a type to me is > >> "gloss", but this is used, as far as I understand it, when there > >> is a <label> preceding the <item>, and in that case the presence > >> of <label> is sufficient to determine the output appearance. > > yes, thats true. if there are label children, its a gloss list. > >> > >> So I would recommend: > >> > >> 1. Changing our recommendation so that we provide suggested values > >> for @rend, not @type. > > > > ok, I suppose > > > >> 2. Adding a suggestion that using @style with CSS will provide a > >> useful range of precise options that cover most cases. > >> > > or better, @rendition, in fact. @rendition="#romannumbered" is a > > more useful scenario > > How about <list style="list-style-type:upper-roman;">? > > >> 3. Leaving @type on <list>, for backward compatibility, but > >> providing no suggested values for it. > > not suggested values, but with an example? can we think of one? > > <list type="instructions"> > > <list type="recipe"> > > <list type="shopping"> > > These are all actual types of list; any of them might be rendered > with bullets or numbers, without changing their type. > > >> This will cause Sebastian considerable stylesheet-related pain, I > >> know, so apologies for that. > > > > > > yes, I haven't the faintest idea how to know whether to make <ul> > > or <ol>. > > Yes, damn it, that's the heart of the problem. HTML was wrong to have > two separate tags. But if you create a <ul> and make it > list-style-type: upper-roman, you'll get roman numerals, and if you > give an <ol> list-style-type: disc, you'll get a bulleted list. If we > believe that all lists are inherently ordered, we could just use <ol> > in the output and let CSS do the styling. > > > I suggest that this is such a big bucket of worms that it needs > > public discussion. @type on <list> seems so well established in > > both instances and tools that I can't help feeling we may provoke > > howls of protest across the seven seas. > > Indeed. But we don't have to break backwards compatibility; you could > still detect the old values in the stylesheets and retain the old > behaviour. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Apr 6 14:59:04 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 14:59:04 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <515C62C9.7020405@uvic.ca> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E.3020105@it.ox.ac.uk> <515C62C9.7020405@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20832.28792.113461.429204@emt.ad.brown.edu> Just to flesh out this thread a bit more: > What is the weather like in RI in April? I use [1] myself. I particularly like the "HOURLY WEATHER GRAPH". > what the easiest way is to get from Boston Logan to Providence is? Here's what I sent to George Bin a on this topic last week: To get to and from the airport: * The cheapest option is probably the MBTA "silver line" bus (SL1)[2] to South Station, then an MBTA commuter rail "purple line" train to Providence[3]. Cost would likely be ~13 USD per person each way. * I'm sure there are limo or taxi services that would be quite easy but quite expensive. Knights Limo[4], e.g., would be 188 USD each way for up to 4 people, and Northeast Limo is 139 USD.[5] * The compromise solution that most of us use is the Peter Pan bus.[6] Cost is ~40 USD per person round trip. It will pick you up directly in front of the airport terminal (Terminal E), and take you to Kennedy Plaza, which is an ~110-330 meter walk from the entrance to the Biltmore (depending on which end of the plaza the bus stops). The trip is only a few minutes longer than the other options (only makes 2 other stops on the way), and the bus is typically quite comfortable. The only disadvantage is it doesn't run very often, so you sometimes end up waiting in the airport for an hour or so to get it. I've often purchased my ticket from Logan to Providence on the bus. But you may want to contact Peter Pan to be sure that is an option, as I haven't done this in over a year. Notes ----- [1] http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=41.8239891&lon=-71.41283429999999&site=all&smap=1&searchresult=Providence%2C%20RI%2C%20USA [2] http://www.mbta.com/riding_the_t/logan/#Providence [3] http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/lines/?route=PROVSTOU [4] http://www.knightslimo.com/ [5] http://www.nelimos.com/ [6] http://peterpanbus.com/bus_travel_destinations/boston-logan-airport-bus/. When asked FROM and TO, you want BOSTON LOGAN AIRPORT and PROV K PLAZA, RI. From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sat Apr 6 15:06:05 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 20:06:05 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TE Council Meeting in April. In-Reply-To: <20832.28792.113461.429204@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <510BE4E3.1060804@it.ox.ac.uk> <CAMuBKpfJDeJFmbnZBJAU2Q5aTCP36mFz=MZVx4pzwdAXuWcKfg@mail.gmail.com> <515B19F2.1020507@ultraslavonic.info> <CAMuBKpd_6Stptsfec+AfCYO7dVj0-TDxjMhpsPuLD=632ujk4g@mail.gmail.com> <515C40FE.80200@kcl.ac.uk> <515C546E Message-ID: <5160721D.20903@kcl.ac.uk> Thanks, Syd. That's what I'm going to do. I contacted Peter Pan last night because I wasn't quite sure I was going to make the most promising bus, and wondered if my ticket could be used on a later one. They said no, but you can buy a ticket on the bus for only $2-3 more than the $20 it is for an advance ticket online, so I decided to do that instead. On 06/04/2013 19:59, Syd Bauman wrote: > * The compromise solution that most of us use is the Peter Pan bus.[6] > Cost is ~40 USD per person round trip. It will pick you up directly > in front of the airport terminal (Terminal E), and take you to > Kennedy Plaza, which is an ~110-330 meter walk from the entrance to > the Biltmore (depending on which end of the plaza the bus stops). > The trip is only a few minutes longer than the other options (only > makes 2 other stops on the way), and the bus is typically quite > comfortable. The only disadvantage is it doesn't run very often, so > you sometimes end up waiting in the airport for an hour or so to get > it. I've often purchased my ticket from Logan to Providence on the > bus. But you may want to contact Peter Pan to be sure that is an > option, as I haven't done this in over a year. -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Apr 6 15:27:01 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 15:27:01 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] sluice your glosses In-Reply-To: <9a6b39e4-71c8-44fa-b6dc-e9f8c81fa238@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <512E8B89.5040008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <fc1f1dd2-a098-4262-bf45-5afdbacb361b@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <512EB1C9.4050900@ultraslavonic.info> <512F3012.4020205@it.ox.ac.uk> <512F49FF.3000309@retired.ox.ac.uk> <8854BC6A-1F9B-4B65-AC40-9B71AF0436BE@it.ox.ac.uk> <512F4EB8.9090402@retired.ox.ac.uk> <04FF568F-317E-403D-9FD8-A991F0A4BD6C@it.ox.ac.uk> <512F9076.4050908@retired.ox.ac.uk> <9a6b39e4-71c8-44fa-b6dc-e9f8c81fa238@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20832.30469.993188.635790@emt.ad.brown.edu> [Re: idea of nuking <gloss> element.] > (a) adding more waffle into the existing <gloss>es as and when > someone says they are puzzled by their meanings > (b) removing all existing <gloss>es entirely > (c) merging existing <gloss>es into their sibling <desc>s > (d) restricting <gloss>es to expansions and moving any useful waffle > elsewhere? (d), although I think perhaps there should be a consistent "elsewhere". From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 6 15:46:11 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 19:46:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <20832.16008.769431.895366@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> <474E1ADD-AD52-4E16-A159-E5FD91994612@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113014B.7050504@uvic.ca> <20832.16008.769431.895366@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1BD7A9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> since you've raised this again, Syd, what's your proposal for what we should do? completely abandon @type for specifying rendition? i could live with a ruling that 1. @type is for semantics: <list type="recipe"> 2. without any rendition info, the assumption is that in HTML <list> equates to <ul>, etc but its a pain in the neck if people use inline @style, and I want to make LaTeX.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 6 16:24:23 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:24:23 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <515F2A07.9080701@uvic.ca> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> <50F8B442.4040802@ultraslavonic.info> <50F8C1A5.8050701@uvic.ca> <20831.3106.761143.147697@emt.ad.brown.edu> <515F2A07.9080701@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51608477.4080708@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 05/04/13 20:46, Martin Holmes wrote: > > On 13-04-05 10:38 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: >> [Catching up on mail ... expect quite a few responses to old e-mail >> from me in the near future.] >> >> At first glance, I like this idea. I wonder where in the Guidelines >> source ODD files we would put the Schematron code for an element that >> is not being defined. > TEI, or teiCorpus? > > <assert test="not(descendant::deletedElement"> > The deletedElement element was deprecated for several > years, and was finally deleted in TEI release x.y.z. > </assert> This would mean we gradually accumulate a list of deleted elements in the <TEI> spec. Ingenious. Let's hope we never need to delete the <TEI> element.... From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 6 16:26:54 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:26:54 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] data.code and data.word In-Reply-To: <20832.13246.61457.507245@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <E5CD1A79-6E06-458D-88EB-62F50E3DE282@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E7A051.2040006@ultraslavonic.info> <AE53FDC7-1E76-4249-94FF-4E2B7EEFFA23@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E82CFD.1080101@kcl.ac.uk> <993D356D-F447-4AD2-8B09-6942B65CCA0D@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E895DC.8030705@kcl.ac.uk> <50E89EE3.8060700@uvic.ca> <50E8A28C.1020709@kcl.ac.uk> <50E8A4B8.70606@retired.ox.ac.uk> <82f98f9a-cc89-4320-b449-2cad019ee524@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <50E8B71A.4010706@ultraslavonic.info> <20712.50069.513046.773515@emt.ad.brown.edu> <2C15EA68-4B05-4600-BFB3-9A051085B1FD@it.ox.ac.uk> <50E9A593.4080207@retired.ox.ac.uk> <607b3a5b-0a5e-4d06-beec-024478b1b852@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <510BF46A.1040207@uvic.ca> <510C4D82.6030405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <20832.13246.61457.507245@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5160850E.4070906@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 06/04/13 15:39, Syd Bauman wrote: > I see that I'm way too late, data.code has already been removed. And > since it never lived up to its aspirations, that may not be such a > bad thing. But I still think that a mechanism for expressing a > controlled vocabulary in an individual file's TEI header (rather than > in its ODD like data.enumerated) is a good idea. Yes, that train has now left the station. As to controlled vocab in the header, it all depends what the purpose of the vocab is. If it's for something that legitimately be regarded as a descriptive <taxonomy>, then the mechanism is already there. From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Apr 7 13:06:11 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:06:11 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <51608477.4080708@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> <50F8B442.4040802@ultraslavonic.info> <50F8C1A5.8050701@uvic.ca> <20831.3106.761143.147697@emt.ad.brown.edu> <515F2A07.9080701@uvic.ca> <51608477.4080708@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5161A783.70709@uvic.ca> On 13-04-06 01:24 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 05/04/13 20:46, Martin Holmes wrote: >> >> On 13-04-05 10:38 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: >>> [Catching up on mail ... expect quite a few responses to old e-mail >>> from me in the near future.] >>> >>> At first glance, I like this idea. I wonder where in the Guidelines >>> source ODD files we would put the Schematron code for an element that >>> is not being defined. >> TEI, or teiCorpus? >> >> <assert test="not(descendant::deletedElement"> >> The deletedElement element was deprecated for several >> years, and was finally deleted in TEI release x.y.z. >> </assert> > > This would mean we gradually accumulate a list of deleted elements in > the <TEI> spec. Ingenious. Let's hope we never need to delete the <TEI> > element.... Of course that now gives us the problem of deciding after how long we should delete the Schematron warning for a deleted element... Cheers, Martin From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sun Apr 7 13:19:44 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 18:19:44 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <5161A783.70709@uvic.ca> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <C7B477D3-12AD-41F8-81D5-2FEE7406B579@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <DA85CA62-D7D3-4259-8128-2FA35FF6A070@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> <50F8B442.4040802@ultraslavonic.info> <50F8C1A5.8050701@uvic.ca> <20831.3106.761143.147697@emt.ad.brown.edu> <515F2A07.9080701@uvic.ca> <51608477.4080708@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5161A783.70709@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5161AAB0.5060306@kcl.ac.uk> Why would we ever delete them? This list isn't going to be in the thousands, is it? (Unless we do a wholesale renaming in P6, e.g. tei:teiHeader to tei:header, as I've suggested before. ;-) ) But a dozen schematron assertions ten years down the road isn't going to be especially intrusive, I don't think. G On 07/04/2013 18:06, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-04-06 01:24 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> On 05/04/13 20:46, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> >>> On 13-04-05 10:38 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: >>>> [Catching up on mail ... expect quite a few responses to old e-mail >>>> from me in the near future.] >>>> >>>> At first glance, I like this idea. I wonder where in the Guidelines >>>> source ODD files we would put the Schematron code for an element that >>>> is not being defined. >>> TEI, or teiCorpus? >>> >>> <assert test="not(descendant::deletedElement"> >>> The deletedElement element was deprecated for several >>> years, and was finally deleted in TEI release x.y.z. >>> </assert> >> >> This would mean we gradually accumulate a list of deleted elements in >> the <TEI> spec. Ingenious. Let's hope we never need to delete the <TEI> >> element.... > > Of course that now gives us the problem of deciding after how long we > should delete the Schematron warning for a deleted element... > > Cheers, > Martin > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 7 13:42:16 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 18:42:16 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: password challenge from svn In-Reply-To: <51571303.6010704@tge-adonis.fr> References: <51571303.6010704@tge-adonis.fr> Message-ID: <5161AFF8.3030709@retired.ox.ac.uk> Before I set up my nice new ubuntu desktop last month, I was happily using the command line subversion client routinely to check stuff in and out. I still am, but nowadays it insists on asking me for my sf password every time, which it didnt do before and which other svn repos I use don't either. On the plus side this means I am less likely to forget my sf password, but it still seems annoying. Is this something I've forgotten I need to tweak in my connexion to the repo? Or am I the last person in the world still using the command line? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 7 13:45:57 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 17:45:57 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: password challenge from svn In-Reply-To: <5161AFF8.3030709@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51571303.6010704@tge-adonis.fr> <5161AFF8.3030709@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <7ac62944-3650-4b42-a3e8-bdb362499211@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 7 Apr 2013, at 18:42, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Before I set up my nice new ubuntu desktop last month, I was happily > using the command line subversion client routinely to check stuff in and > out. I still am, but nowadays it insists on asking me for my sf password > every time, which it didnt do before and which other svn repos I use > don't either. its cos you're using the svn+ssh protocol now. cf http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7086797/svn-keeps-prompting-me-for-passwords-and-refuses-to-cache-my-credentials i havent sorted it out yet either -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Apr 7 13:46:36 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 10:46:36 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: password challenge from svn In-Reply-To: <5161AFF8.3030709@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51571303.6010704@tge-adonis.fr> <5161AFF8.3030709@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5161B0FC.7070808@uvic.ca> I use the command line too and I noticed the same behaviour. I thought about it for a bit and decided I'd rather not be storing my password locally. I read the SVN book section about this: <http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.1/ch06s02.html> and this bit: "The security-paranoid people may be thinking to themselves, ?Caching passwords on disk? That's terrible! You should never do that!? But please remain calm. First, the auth/ caching area is permission-protected so that only the user (owner) can read data from it, not the world at large. If that's still not safe enough for you, you can disable credential caching. To disable caching for a single command, pass the --no-auth-cache option..." convinced me that I'm security-paranoid, because I don't really like the idea that anyone that hacks a user account on one of my computers can then get access to my SF account too. So I'm typing it in every time. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-07 10:42 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > > Before I set up my nice new ubuntu desktop last month, I was happily > using the command line subversion client routinely to check stuff in and > out. I still am, but nowadays it insists on asking me for my sf password > every time, which it didnt do before and which other svn repos I use > don't either. On the plus side this means I am less likely to forget my > sf password, but it still seems annoying. Is this something I've > forgotten I need to tweak in my connexion to the repo? Or am I the last > person in the world still using the command line? > > > > From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sun Apr 7 13:48:19 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 18:48:19 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: password challenge from svn In-Reply-To: <7ac62944-3650-4b42-a3e8-bdb362499211@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51571303.6010704@tge-adonis.fr> <5161AFF8.3030709@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7ac62944-3650-4b42-a3e8-bdb362499211@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5161B163.5010609@kcl.ac.uk> It was happening to me too, so I stopped using svn+ssh and just use the HTTPS url for the repo instead. On 07/04/2013 18:45, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 7 Apr 2013, at 18:42, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: > >> >> Before I set up my nice new ubuntu desktop last month, I was happily >> using the command line subversion client routinely to check stuff in and >> out. I still am, but nowadays it insists on asking me for my sf password >> every time, which it didnt do before and which other svn repos I use >> don't either. > > its cos you're using the svn+ssh protocol now. > > cf http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7086797/svn-keeps-prompting-me-for-passwords-and-refuses-to-cache-my-credentials > > i havent sorted it out yet either > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Apr 7 13:57:30 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 13:57:30 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: password challenge from svn In-Reply-To: <5161B163.5010609@kcl.ac.uk> References: <51571303.6010704@tge-adonis.fr> <5161AFF8.3030709@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7ac62944-3650-4b42-a3e8-bdb362499211@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5161B163.5010609@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5161B38A.4030907@ultraslavonic.info> I too have noticed this but hadn't looked into it. You can create a public/private key pair based on no passphrase and upload your public key to SF. How this process works in general is described at: http://www.linuxproblem.org/art_9.html and SF-specific instructions (hard to follow) are at: https://sourceforge.net/p/forge/documentation/SSH%20Keys/ I have not tested it on SF, but I have set up such key pairs in my day job. On 4/7/13 1:48 PM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > It was happening to me too, so I stopped using svn+ssh and just use the > HTTPS url for the repo instead. > > On 07/04/2013 18:45, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 7 Apr 2013, at 18:42, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Before I set up my nice new ubuntu desktop last month, I was happily >>> using the command line subversion client routinely to check stuff in and >>> out. I still am, but nowadays it insists on asking me for my sf password >>> every time, which it didnt do before and which other svn repos I use >>> don't either. >> >> its cos you're using the svn+ssh protocol now. >> >> cf http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7086797/svn-keeps-prompting-me-for-passwords-and-refuses-to-cache-my-credentials >> >> i havent sorted it out yet either >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 7 14:26:53 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 19:26:53 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: password challenge from svn In-Reply-To: <5161B38A.4030907@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51571303.6010704@tge-adonis.fr> <5161AFF8.3030709@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7ac62944-3650-4b42-a3e8-bdb362499211@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5161B163.5010609@kcl.ac.uk> <5161B38A.4030907@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5161BA6D.6080508@retired.ox.ac.uk> Thanks for all the reassuring indications that I am not alone... I'll let you know if I get it sorted! L On 07/04/13 18:57, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > I too have noticed this but hadn't looked into it. > > You can create a public/private key pair based on no passphrase and > upload your public key to SF. How this process works in general is > described at: > > http://www.linuxproblem.org/art_9.html > > and SF-specific instructions (hard to follow) are at: > > https://sourceforge.net/p/forge/documentation/SSH%20Keys/ > > I have not tested it on SF, but I have set up such key pairs in my day job. > > On 4/7/13 1:48 PM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> It was happening to me too, so I stopped using svn+ssh and just use the >> HTTPS url for the repo instead. >> >> On 07/04/2013 18:45, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> On 7 Apr 2013, at 18:42, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Before I set up my nice new ubuntu desktop last month, I was happily >>>> using the command line subversion client routinely to check stuff in and >>>> out. I still am, but nowadays it insists on asking me for my sf password >>>> every time, which it didnt do before and which other svn repos I use >>>> don't either. >>> its cos you're using the svn+ssh protocol now. >>> >>> cf http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7086797/svn-keeps-prompting-me-for-passwords-and-refuses-to-cache-my-credentials >>> >>> i havent sorted it out yet either >>> -- >>> Sebastian Rahtz >>> Director (Research) of Academic IT >>> University of Oxford IT Services >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>> From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 7 15:25:46 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 19:25:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: password challenge from svn In-Reply-To: <5161BA6D.6080508@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51571303.6010704@tge-adonis.fr> <5161AFF8.3030709@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7ac62944-3650-4b42-a3e8-bdb362499211@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5161B163.5010609@kcl.ac.uk> <5161B38A.4030907@ultraslavonic.info> <5161BA6D.6080508@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <a2f7398f-d575-4203-8c63-c98f323c9ff2@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> I registered my public key with Sourceforge, and now it doesnt challenge me any more, cos the public key is in my keychain for the session. FWIW. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 7 15:44:47 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 20:44:47 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: password challenge from svn In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1C8786@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51571303.6010704@tge-adonis.fr> <5161AFF8.3030709@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7ac62944-3650-4b42-a3e8-bdb362499211@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5161B163.5010609@kcl.ac.uk> <5161B38A.4030907@ultraslavonic.info> <5161BA6D.6080508@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1C8786@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5161CCAF.60906@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 07/04/13 20:25, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I registered my public key with Sourceforge, and now it doesnt challenge me any more, cos the > public key is in my keychain for the session. FWIW. > -- > Me too. I was puzzled cos at no stage did anything ask for my sf password, but i can now do commits unchallenged From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sun Apr 7 17:02:18 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 22:02:18 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: password challenge from svn In-Reply-To: <5161CCAF.60906@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51571303.6010704@tge-adonis.fr> <5161AFF8.3030709@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7ac62944-3650-4b42-a3e8-bdb362499211@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5161B163.5010609@kcl.ac.uk> <5161B38A.4030907@ultraslavonic.info> <5161BA6D.6080508@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1C8786@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5161CCAF.60906@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5161DEDA.6040006@kcl.ac.uk> I guess you were logged in to sf when you registered your public key with them, so that's security enough... On 07/04/2013 20:44, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 07/04/13 20:25, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> I registered my public key with Sourceforge, and now it doesnt challenge me any more, cos the >> public key is in my keychain for the session. FWIW. >> -- >> > > > Me too. I was puzzled cos at no stage did anything ask for my sf > password, but i can now do commits unchallenged > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Apr 7 20:22:48 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 20:22:48 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? Message-ID: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> In poking around the new Allura platform on SF, I haven't been able to figure out how to close a ticket. Perhaps my user just doesn't have the privileges for it. Could someone tell me how you do it? Here's the one I'd like to close: https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/352 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Apr 7 21:14:55 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 21:14:55 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? In-Reply-To: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> Okay, Martin sent me a screenshot, which confirms that I actually don't have permission to "edit" tickets. Can someone give me this permission? On 4/7/13 8:22 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > In poking around the new Allura platform on SF, I haven't been able to > figure out how to close a ticket. Perhaps my user just doesn't have the > privileges for it. Could someone tell me how you do it? > > Here's the one I'd like to close: > > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/352 From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Apr 7 21:30:19 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 18:30:19 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? In-Reply-To: <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51621DAB.2010001@uvic.ca> I'm trying to figure out how the project permissions map to the ticket permissions. If it's the case that only admins can close tickets, then we'll need to add everyone to admins who might have a ticket assigned to them, so they can close it when they're done; that seems too much. Not in the case of you, Kevin, of course. I've added you to admins -- could you confirm you can now close your ticket? Slightly more worrying is the fact that if the permissions are as they seem to me to be, then ordinary authenticated users could not create new tickets. I'm going to set up a test account to see if that's true. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-07 06:14 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Okay, Martin sent me a screenshot, which confirms that I actually don't > have permission to "edit" tickets. Can someone give me this permission? > > On 4/7/13 8:22 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> In poking around the new Allura platform on SF, I haven't been able to >> figure out how to close a ticket. Perhaps my user just doesn't have the >> privileges for it. Could someone tell me how you do it? >> >> Here's the one I'd like to close: >> >> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/352 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Apr 7 21:41:02 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2013 21:41:02 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? In-Reply-To: <51621DAB.2010001@uvic.ca> References: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> <51621DAB.2010001@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5162202E.1050900@ultraslavonic.info> Yup, I now have the power (and have closed the ticket in question). On 4/7/13 9:30 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > I've added you to admins -- could > you confirm you can now close your ticket? From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Apr 7 22:21:47 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2013 19:21:47 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? In-Reply-To: <5162202E.1050900@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> <51621DAB.2010001@uvic.ca> <5162202E.1050900@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <516229BB.2050906@uvic.ca> I tested submission of a ticket as an unprivileged user, and that works OK, so I don't understand how the permissions work at all. According to the permissions page, only admins and developers have "Create" privileges; logged-in users have only "read", but that seems to include creating tickets. But it seems only admins can change ticket status. That seems a bit crude, especially given our recent discussions about assigning tickets to people who aren't on Council. Or am I missing something obvious here? Cheers, Martin > Yup, I now have the power (and have closed the ticket in question). > > On 4/7/13 9:30 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I've added you to admins -- could >> you confirm you can now close your ticket? From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 8 05:22:55 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 10:22:55 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? In-Reply-To: <516229BB.2050906@uvic.ca> References: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> <51621DAB.2010001@uvic.ca> <5162202E.1050900@ultraslavonic.info> <516229BB.2050906@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51628C6F.4090104@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi Martin, I'm sorting this out, I think. The permissions for the ticket queues are kept under 'Tools' then the queue then 'Permissions'. I've created a new user group 'TEI Developer' and added you all to it and given them permission to do everything an Admin can do on Feature Requests, Bugs, and Support Requests. (As well as 'code' and 'news'.) I've removed 'Developer' group from having powers in all these areas. I believe this should allow "TEI Developers" (Council, Lou, and Elena so far) to close tickets and admin them in any way without making them Admins for the site as a whole. To test this I've reopened Kevin's ticket temporarily https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/352/ and removed Kevin from both the 'Developer' and 'Admins' group, leaving him *only* in the TEI Developer group. Kevin: Can you confirm that you can still close that ticket again? When you have I'm happy to add you back to the Admins if you want! ;-) -James On 08/04/13 03:21, Martin Holmes wrote: > I tested submission of a ticket as an unprivileged user, and that works > OK, so I don't understand how the permissions work at all. According to > the permissions page, only admins and developers have "Create" > privileges; logged-in users have only "read", but that seems to include > creating tickets. > > But it seems only admins can change ticket status. That seems a bit > crude, especially given our recent discussions about assigning tickets > to people who aren't on Council. > > Or am I missing something obvious here? > > Cheers, > Martin > >> Yup, I now have the power (and have closed the ticket in question). >> >> On 4/7/13 9:30 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> I've added you to admins -- could >>> you confirm you can now close your ticket? -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 8 05:44:38 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 10:44:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? In-Reply-To: <51628C6F.4090104@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> <51621DAB.2010001@uvic.ca> <5162202E.1050900@ultraslavonic.info> <516229BB.2050906@uvic.ca> <51628C6F.4090104@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51629186.6060402@it.ox.ac.uk> *sigh* One slight wrinkle: Developer is a hard coded group and only Admins and Developers can be 'Release Technicians'. The solution is probably: - Create a new group 'TEI Hangers On' (or something better) - Move everyone who is a Developer to be a TEI Hanger On - Add back everyone who is on Council to the Developers group - Change all the permissions back to be 'Developer' rather than 'TEI Developer' group. I'll do this _after_ Kevin confirms he is able to close that ticket and thus we're understanding how permissions work properly. Ah well, -James On 08/04/13 10:22, James Cummings wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > I'm sorting this out, I think. > > The permissions for the ticket queues are kept under 'Tools' then > the queue then 'Permissions'. > > I've created a new user group 'TEI Developer' and added you all > to it and given them permission to do everything an Admin can do > on Feature Requests, Bugs, and Support Requests. (As well as > 'code' and 'news'.) I've removed 'Developer' group from having > powers in all these areas. > > I believe this should allow "TEI Developers" (Council, Lou, and > Elena so far) to close tickets and admin them in any way without > making them Admins for the site as a whole. > > To test this I've reopened Kevin's ticket temporarily > > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/352/ > > and removed Kevin from both the 'Developer' and 'Admins' group, > leaving him *only* in the TEI Developer group. > > Kevin: Can you confirm that you can still close that ticket > again? When you have I'm happy to add you back to the Admins if > you want! ;-) > > -James > > > On 08/04/13 03:21, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I tested submission of a ticket as an unprivileged user, and that works >> OK, so I don't understand how the permissions work at all. According to >> the permissions page, only admins and developers have "Create" >> privileges; logged-in users have only "read", but that seems to include >> creating tickets. >> >> But it seems only admins can change ticket status. That seems a bit >> crude, especially given our recent discussions about assigning tickets >> to people who aren't on Council. >> >> Or am I missing something obvious here? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >>> Yup, I now have the power (and have closed the ticket in question). >>> >>> On 4/7/13 9:30 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> I've added you to admins -- could >>>> you confirm you can now close your ticket? > > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 8 06:23:38 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 11:23:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1BD7A9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> <474E1ADD-AD52-4E16-A159-E5FD91994612@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113014B.7050504@uvic.ca> <20832.16008.769431.895366@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1BD7A9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51629AAA.8090805@it.ox.ac.uk> On 06/04/13 20:46, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > since you've raised this again, Syd, what's your proposal for what we should do? > completely abandon @type for specifying rendition? > > i could live with a ruling that > > 1. @type is for semantics: <list type="recipe"> > 2. without any rendition info, the assumption is that in HTML <list> equates to <ul>, etc > > but its a pain in the neck if people use inline @style, and I want to make LaTeX.... I think I agree with Syd here... I think @type should be reserved for the semantic classification of what 'type of' list this is. (I would say <list type="directions"> (or 'steps' or something) rather than 'recipe' since presumably there was some content describing the recipe, another list for the ingredients, etc.) I also agree that order being important (or not) is something that should be able to be captured (@ordered as a boolean?) but think it is separate from the classification. My <list type="recipeSteps"> classifies what type of list it is, but *also* has a requirement that order is important. Whether these are numbered steps or bulleted is entirely a rendering thing in my opinion. Discuss at the face-to-face? -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 8 07:26:38 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:26:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <51629AAA.8090805@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> <474E1ADD-AD52-4E16-A159-E5FD91994612@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113014B.7050504@uvic.ca> <20832.16008.769431.895366@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1BD7A9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51629AAA.8090805@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <11e930e5-f611-4fa8-bd47-7de4398d1a9b@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 8 Apr 2013, at 11:23, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > I also agree that order being important (or not) is something > that should be able to be captured (@ordered as a boolean?) but > think it is separate from the classification. My <list > type="recipeSteps"> classifies what type of list it is, but > *also* has a requirement that order is important. > > Whether these are numbered steps or bulleted is entirely a > rendering thing in my opinion. effectively, we're moving the currently widely used set of @type values into @rend, then. Which is very reasonable. But _highly_ disruptive to many many existing projects and tools. discuss at f2f, sure. but lets be wary of this eating up a lot to time, cos the implications are scary. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Mon Apr 8 07:36:05 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 12:36:05 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <11e930e5-f611-4fa8-bd47-7de4398d1a9b@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> <474E1ADD-AD52-4E16-A159-E5FD91994612@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113014B.7050504@uvic.ca> <20832.16008.769431.895366@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1BD7A9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51629AAA.8090805@it.ox.ac.uk> <11e930e5-f611-4fa8-bd47-7de4398d1a9b@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5162ABA5.3060107@kcl.ac.uk> When we discussed this very question at the last f2f, we came to precisely this conclusion (that all the functions of @type are renditional [and in fact effectively HTML-renditional] and should therefore be moved to @rend and family, thereby freeing up @type if anyone wants to typologize lists in ways that aren't currently catered for), but it was generally agreed that this would be too disruptive, and so we started a page somewhere on the Wiki of decisions to be deferred for P6. The one decision we did make was to standardize on one of "numbered"|"ordered" (probably to the former, but I don't remember and haven't checked the minutes). I've been a bit bemused by the fact that we've now revisited this question on the list at least twice since Oxford. I'm not sure we're *ever* going to agree to break tei:list this badly before P6, are we? G On 2013-04-08 12:26, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 8 Apr 2013, at 11:23, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> I also agree that order being important (or not) is something >> that should be able to be captured (@ordered as a boolean?) but >> think it is separate from the classification. My <list >> type="recipeSteps"> classifies what type of list it is, but >> *also* has a requirement that order is important. >> >> Whether these are numbered steps or bulleted is entirely a >> rendering thing in my opinion. > > > > effectively, we're moving the currently widely used set of @type values > into @rend, then. Which is very reasonable. But _highly_ disruptive > to many many existing projects and tools. > > discuss at f2f, sure. but lets be wary of this eating up a lot to time, > cos the implications are scary. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 8 07:41:23 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 11:41:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <5162ABA5.3060107@kcl.ac.uk> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> <474E1ADD-AD52-4E16-A159-E5FD91994612@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113014B.7050504@uvic.ca> <20832.16008.769431.895366@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1BD7A9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51629AAA.8090805@it.ox.ac.uk> <11e930e5-f611-4fa8-bd47-7de4398d1a9b@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>, <5162ABA5.3060107@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4fltj9rq5m996dectbfbfko0.1365421281156@email.android.com> I thought this sounded familiar ;-) http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/P6-dev Is the page by the way of things we've decided are too disruptive for P5. James -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford Gabriel Bodard <gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk> wrote: When we discussed this very question at the last f2f, we came to precisely this conclusion (that all the functions of @type are renditional [and in fact effectively HTML-renditional] and should therefore be moved to @rend and family, thereby freeing up @type if anyone wants to typologize lists in ways that aren't currently catered for), but it was generally agreed that this would be too disruptive, and so we started a page somewhere on the Wiki of decisions to be deferred for P6. The one decision we did make was to standardize on one of "numbered"|"ordered" (probably to the former, but I don't remember and haven't checked the minutes). I've been a bit bemused by the fact that we've now revisited this question on the list at least twice since Oxford. I'm not sure we're *ever* going to agree to break tei:list this badly before P6, are we? G On 2013-04-08 12:26, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 8 Apr 2013, at 11:23, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> I also agree that order being important (or not) is something >> that should be able to be captured (@ordered as a boolean?) but >> think it is separate from the classification. My <list >> type="recipeSteps"> classifies what type of list it is, but >> *also* has a requirement that order is important. >> >> Whether these are numbered steps or bulleted is entirely a >> rendering thing in my opinion. > > > > effectively, we're moving the currently widely used set of @type values > into @rend, then. Which is very reasonable. But _highly_ disruptive > to many many existing projects and tools. > > discuss at f2f, sure. but lets be wary of this eating up a lot to time, > cos the implications are scary. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Apr 8 08:46:44 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 05:46:44 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? In-Reply-To: <51628C6F.4090104@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> <51621DAB.2010001@uvic.ca> <5162202E.1050900@ultraslavonic.info> <516229BB.2050906@uvic.ca> <51628C6F.4090104@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5162BC34.1000800@uvic.ca> Thanks James. I wonder what "Create" means in the main permissions area, then? Cheers, Martin On 13-04-08 02:22 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > Hi Martin, > > I'm sorting this out, I think. > > The permissions for the ticket queues are kept under 'Tools' then > the queue then 'Permissions'. > > I've created a new user group 'TEI Developer' and added you all > to it and given them permission to do everything an Admin can do > on Feature Requests, Bugs, and Support Requests. (As well as > 'code' and 'news'.) I've removed 'Developer' group from having > powers in all these areas. > > I believe this should allow "TEI Developers" (Council, Lou, and > Elena so far) to close tickets and admin them in any way without > making them Admins for the site as a whole. > > To test this I've reopened Kevin's ticket temporarily > > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/352/ > > and removed Kevin from both the 'Developer' and 'Admins' group, > leaving him *only* in the TEI Developer group. > > Kevin: Can you confirm that you can still close that ticket > again? When you have I'm happy to add you back to the Admins if > you want! ;-) > > -James > > > On 08/04/13 03:21, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I tested submission of a ticket as an unprivileged user, and that works >> OK, so I don't understand how the permissions work at all. According to >> the permissions page, only admins and developers have "Create" >> privileges; logged-in users have only "read", but that seems to include >> creating tickets. >> >> But it seems only admins can change ticket status. That seems a bit >> crude, especially given our recent discussions about assigning tickets >> to people who aren't on Council. >> >> Or am I missing something obvious here? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >>> Yup, I now have the power (and have closed the ticket in question). >>> >>> On 4/7/13 9:30 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> I've added you to admins -- could >>>> you confirm you can now close your ticket? > > From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Mon Apr 8 09:12:46 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 09:12:46 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? In-Reply-To: <51628C6F.4090104@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> <51621DAB.2010001@uvic.ca> <5162202E.1050900@ultraslavonic.info> <516229BB.2050906@uvic.ca> <51628C6F.4090104@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5162C24E.1020909@ultraslavonic.info> Confirmed. No need to make me a developer. Frankly, I'd rather not be one so I can continue to help diagnose things that the admins may not be able to see. On 4/8/2013 5:22 AM, James Cummings wrote: > Kevin: Can you confirm that you can still close that ticket > again? When you have I'm happy to add you back to the Admins if > you want! ;-) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 8 09:31:10 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 14:31:10 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? In-Reply-To: <5162BC34.1000800@uvic.ca> References: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> <51621DAB.2010001@uvic.ca> <5162202E.1050900@ultraslavonic.info> <516229BB.2050906@uvic.ca> <51628C6F.4090104@it.ox.ac.uk> <5162BC34.1000800@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5162C69E.3040801@it.ox.ac.uk> On 08/04/13 13:46, Martin Holmes wrote: > Thanks James. > > I wonder what "Create" means in the main permissions area, then? I *think* it might mean that this user group gets 'create' rights by default in any of the tools subsequently added. I'm not sure that is the case.... but that is my suspicion. -James > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-04-08 02:22 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> >> Hi Martin, >> >> I'm sorting this out, I think. >> >> The permissions for the ticket queues are kept under 'Tools' then >> the queue then 'Permissions'. >> >> I've created a new user group 'TEI Developer' and added you all >> to it and given them permission to do everything an Admin can do >> on Feature Requests, Bugs, and Support Requests. (As well as >> 'code' and 'news'.) I've removed 'Developer' group from having >> powers in all these areas. >> >> I believe this should allow "TEI Developers" (Council, Lou, and >> Elena so far) to close tickets and admin them in any way without >> making them Admins for the site as a whole. >> >> To test this I've reopened Kevin's ticket temporarily >> >> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/352/ >> >> and removed Kevin from both the 'Developer' and 'Admins' group, >> leaving him *only* in the TEI Developer group. >> >> Kevin: Can you confirm that you can still close that ticket >> again? When you have I'm happy to add you back to the Admins if >> you want! ;-) >> >> -James >> >> >> On 08/04/13 03:21, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> I tested submission of a ticket as an unprivileged user, and that works >>> OK, so I don't understand how the permissions work at all. According to >>> the permissions page, only admins and developers have "Create" >>> privileges; logged-in users have only "read", but that seems to include >>> creating tickets. >>> >>> But it seems only admins can change ticket status. That seems a bit >>> crude, especially given our recent discussions about assigning tickets >>> to people who aren't on Council. >>> >>> Or am I missing something obvious here? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>>> Yup, I now have the power (and have closed the ticket in question). >>>> >>>> On 4/7/13 9:30 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>> I've added you to admins -- could >>>>> you confirm you can now close your ticket? >> >> -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 8 09:32:21 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 14:32:21 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? In-Reply-To: <5162C24E.1020909@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> <51621DAB.2010001@uvic.ca> <5162202E.1050900@ultraslavonic.info> <516229BB.2050906@uvic.ca> <51628C6F.4090104@it.ox.ac.uk> <5162C24E.1020909@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5162C6E5.8020107@it.ox.ac.uk> On 08/04/13 14:12, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Confirmed. No need to make me a developer. Frankly, I'd rather not be > one so I can continue to help diagnose things that the admins may not be > able to see. Great! I'll do what it was I said I'd do in that earlier message then... stand by for Council, and Council only all to become the only 'Developers' on the SourceForge site with a 'miscellaneous' or something group to put everyone else in. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 8 11:52:45 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 16:52:45 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? In-Reply-To: <5162C6E5.8020107@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> <51621DAB.2010001@uvic.ca> <5162202E.1050900@ultraslavonic.info> <516229BB.2050906@uvic.ca> <51628C6F.4090104@it.ox.ac.uk> <5162C24E.1020909@ultraslavonic.info> <5162C6E5.8020107@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5162E7CD.7030400@it.ox.ac.uk> On 08/04/13 14:32, James Cummings wrote: > On 08/04/13 14:12, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> Confirmed. No need to make me a developer. Frankly, I'd rather not be >> one so I can continue to help diagnose things that the admins may not be >> able to see. > > Great! I'll do what it was I said I'd do in that earlier message > then... stand by for Council, and Council only all to become the > only 'Developers' on the SourceForge site with a 'miscellaneous' > or something group to put everyone else in. Just to follow this up. I've used the groups that SF auto-creates of 'Admin', 'Developer', 'Member'. I've put all Council + David Sewell in the 'Developer' group. Anyone who wants to act as a release technician needs to be in this group. This group has been given admin/update/etc. permissions on the various ticket categories (Bugs, FR, Support Requests). They also have admin permissions in 'Code'. The 'Member' group includes Council + everyone-else-who-was-already-a-developer-but-is-not-council. They have no special powers over ticket tools, but do have write permission to Code. Let me know if you notice any side-effects of all this moving around of access control. We could probably remove lots of the people from being 'members' without them noticing or caring. Or create an intermediate group which has svn write permissions. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Mon Apr 8 15:40:00 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:40:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <4fltj9rq5m996dectbfbfko0.1365421281156@email.android.com> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> <474E1ADD-AD52-4E16-A159-E5FD91994612@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113014B.7050504@uvic.ca> <20832.16008.769431.895366@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1BD7A9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51629AAA.8090805@it.ox.ac.uk> <11e930e5-f611-4fa8-bd47-7de4398d1a9b@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>, <5162ABA5.3060107@kcl.ac.uk> <4fltj9rq5m996dectbfbfko0.1365421281156@email.android.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304081527220.19854@punchout.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Since I always worry first about how out of step our practice is... Looking only at our most recent 1,000 uses of <list @type, I see that none of them is really renditional. But then, we don't worry too much about rendition: I think my working assumption is that there are basically two rends of list, <ul> and <dl>, and that they are distinguishable by their content models (if it contains <label> it's <dl>, etc.). Here are the actual @types I find. They don't all make sense to me, and not all belong to the 'list of ...' genus, and some of them have renditional implications, but none specifies rendition per se. <LIST TYPE="anagram"> This is for the common form that looks like this: o Torchwood o anagram: Doctor Who Could be done with <seg>s instead, I suppose. <LIST TYPE="dramatis personae"> We use this in place of <castlist> <LIST TYPE="syllogism"> <LIST TYPE="prosyllogism"> o All oceans are wet o The Atlantic is an ocean o ERGO the Atlantic is wet. <LIST TYPE="analogy"> ?? <LIST TYPE="litany"> o St. Jude pray for us o St. Athanasius pray for <LIST TYPE="genealogy"> For capturing family trees as nested lists. <LIST TYPE="index"> <LIST TYPE="officers"> <LIST TYPE="observations"> <LIST TYPE="propositions"> <LIST TYPE="articles"> The 'list of..." type. This use is rare: we tend to get rid of it in favor of a superordinate <div type="list of ..." > <LIST TYPE="definitions"> This looks suspiciously like a glossary (<dl>) type list but maybe not. So does this avoidance of the renditional put us (for once) ahead of the curve? pfs On Mon, 8 Apr 2013, James Cummings wrote: > I thought this sounded familiar ;-) > > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/P6-dev > Is the page by the way of things we've decided are too disruptive for P5. > > James > > > > -- > Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > > Gabriel Bodard <gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk> wrote: > When we discussed this very question at the last f2f, we came to > precisely this conclusion (that all the functions of @type are > renditional [and in fact effectively HTML-renditional] and should > therefore be moved to @rend and family, thereby freeing up @type if > anyone wants to typologize lists in ways that aren't currently catered > for), but it was generally agreed that this would be too disruptive, and > so we started a page somewhere on the Wiki of decisions to be deferred > for P6. > > The one decision we did make was to standardize on one of > "numbered"|"ordered" (probably to the former, but I don't remember and > haven't checked the minutes). > > I've been a bit bemused by the fact that we've now revisited this > question on the list at least twice since Oxford. I'm not sure we're > *ever* going to agree to break tei:list this badly before P6, are we? > > G > > On 2013-04-08 12:26, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 8 Apr 2013, at 11:23, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> I also agree that order being important (or not) is something >>> that should be able to be captured (@ordered as a boolean?) but >>> think it is separate from the classification. My <list >>> type="recipeSteps"> classifies what type of list it is, but >>> *also* has a requirement that order is important. >>> >>> Whether these are numbered steps or bulleted is entirely a >>> rendering thing in my opinion. >> >> >> >> effectively, we're moving the currently widely used set of @type values >> into @rend, then. Which is very reasonable. But _highly_ disruptive >> to many many existing projects and tools. >> >> discuss at f2f, sure. but lets be wary of this eating up a lot to time, >> cos the implications are scary. >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > Researcher in Digital Epigraphy > > Digital Humanities > King's College London > Boris Karloff Building > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > > T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Mon Apr 8 15:46:11 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 15:46:11 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304081527220.19854@punchout.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> <474E1ADD-AD52-4E16-A159-E5FD91994612@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113014B.7050504@uvic.ca> <20832.16008.769431.895366@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1BD7A9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51629AAA.8090805@it.ox.ac.uk> <11e930e5-f611-4fa8-bd47-7de4398d1a9b@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>, <5162ABA5.3060107@kcl.ac.uk> <4fltj9rq5m996dectbfbfko0.1365421281156@email.android.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304081527220.19854@punchout.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <51631E83.8090009@ultraslavonic.info> On 4/8/2013 3:40 PM, Paul F. Schaffner wrote: > I think my working assumption is that there > are basically two rends of list,<ul> and<dl>, and that they are > distinguishable by their content models (if it contains<label> > it's<dl>, etc.). Interesting. If a list is ordered with numbers or letters, which of your basic two "rends" is this? To put it another way, are you using <ul> to cover both <html:ul> and <html:ol>? K. From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Mon Apr 8 15:57:27 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Should Roma be doing this? In-Reply-To: <51631E83.8090009@ultraslavonic.info> References: <511197F4.4060207@uvic.ca> <2A499121-C3C3-416E-B753-01960CA94212@it.ox.ac.uk> <c9c96f14-ed16-4dbe-9afd-8860a29de525@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51125B2D.6050905@uvic.ca> <5DA2D608-6E86-49B1-8839-0EF0989F0D25@it.ox.ac.uk> <20754.29805.465378.401264@emt.ad.brown.edu> <5112D046.5000407@it.ox.ac.uk> <5112D9ED.1020809@uvic.ca> <474E1ADD-AD52-4E16-A159-E5FD91994612@it.ox.ac.uk> <5113014B.7050504@uvic.ca> <20832.16008.769431.895366@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1BD7A9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51629AAA.8090805@it.ox.ac.uk> <11e930e5-f611-4fa8-bd47-7de4398d1a9b@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk>, <5162ABA5.3060107@kcl.ac.uk> <4fltj9rq5m996dectbfbfko0.1365421281156@email.android.com> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304081527220.19854@punchout.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <51631E83.8090009@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304081555350.19854@punchout.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> On Mon, 8 Apr 2013, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 4/8/2013 3:40 PM, Paul F. Schaffner wrote: >> I think my working assumption is that there >> are basically two rends of list,<ul> and<dl>, and that they are >> distinguishable by their content models (if it contains<label> >> it's<dl>, etc.). > > Interesting. If a list is ordered with numbers or letters, which of > your basic two "rends" is this? To put it another way, are you using > <ul> to cover both <html:ul> and <html:ol>? Yes. <item>Rather than confuse the keyers with how to capture 'mixed' lists and the like,</item> <item>2. We had them capture all indications of sequence as literals.</item> pfs > > K. > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Apr 9 21:04:55 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2013 21:04:55 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? In-Reply-To: <5162E7CD.7030400@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> <51621DAB.2010001@uvic.ca> <5162202E.1050900@ultraslavonic.info> <516229BB.2050906@uvic.ca> <51628C6F.4090104@it.ox.ac.uk> <5162C24E.1020909@ultraslavonic.info> <5162C6E5.8020107@it.ox.ac.uk> <5162E7CD.7030400@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5164BAB7.3020908@ultraslavonic.info> On 4/8/13 11:52 AM, James Cummings wrote: > Let me know if you notice any side-effects of all this moving > around of access control. We could probably remove lots of the > people from being 'members' without them noticing or caring. Or > create an intermediate group which has svn write permissions. One side-effect is that I now receive notice of every change to tickets: changing categories, assigning to people, and posting comments. Before I just received notices to tickets to which I was subscribed (which is how I had things in the old platform as well). While many of you have long opted into notice of every change, I have long been reluctant to go down this path. I only have so many hours in a day. So it would be nice to have the option to go back. Kevin From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Tue Apr 9 22:12:38 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 22:12:38 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Providence meeting logistics/preferences In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051528300.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <CAMuBKpfYBND=OGcfTNuBrB+ZuFCP7cz3qPzz3OVSk_JDx2_0cQ@mail.gmail.com> <515EFED8.4060306@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AECEB@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051302170.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1AF05E@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <515F069B.4040100@ultraslavonic.info> <515F17F9.5090001@it.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304051528300.32203@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <CAA2irtJ9i1k4H1qs1EYkd-1OEj1-EbCX3vA=TVpKGxEOzN0j7Q@mail.gmail.com> I drink copious amounts of coffee and am largely indifferent with respect to its quality. (Unless it's really really bad) No allergies or complicated food preferences. All of the proposed options sound great to me. I should be able to join the group at 7 p.m. on Wednesday in the Biltmore lobby...looking forward to it. Becky On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Paul F. Schaffner <PFSchaffner at umich.edu> wrote: > FWIW, I've arranged to hire a car on Saturday afternoon (at PVD), > with the intent of driving down to Sandywoods in Tiverton (well > south along the east side of the bay, past Fall River), where The > Kennedys (Pete and Maura Kennedy) will be performing a 7 pm > concert. In the unlikely event that this interests anyone, passengers > (especially passengers able to read a map and navigate in real time) > are welcome. > > pfs > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ > 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 10 00:30:06 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2013 21:30:06 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] closing a ticket on Allura platform? In-Reply-To: <5164BAB7.3020908@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51620DD8.7070103@ultraslavonic.info> <51621A0F.3040004@ultraslavonic.info> <51621DAB.2010001@uvic.ca> <5162202E.1050900@ultraslavonic.info> <516229BB.2050906@uvic.ca> <51628C6F.4090104@it.ox.ac.uk> <5162C24E.1020909@ultraslavonic.info> <5162C6E5.8020107@it.ox.ac.uk> <5162E7CD.7030400@it.ox.ac.uk> <5164BAB7.3020908@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5164EACE.8030705@uvic.ca> On 13-04-09 06:04 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 4/8/13 11:52 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> Let me know if you notice any side-effects of all this moving >> around of access control. We could probably remove lots of the >> people from being 'members' without them noticing or caring. Or >> create an intermediate group which has svn write permissions. > > One side-effect is that I now receive notice of every change to tickets: > changing categories, assigning to people, and posting comments. Before > I just received notices to tickets to which I was subscribed (which is > how I had things in the old platform as well). > > While many of you have long opted into notice of every change, I have > long been reluctant to go down this path. I only have so many hours in > a day. So it would be nice to have the option to go back. I think you can set that preference in your own Sourceforge account settings -- Go to Me / Account / Subscriptions. Cheers, Martin > > Kevin > From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Wed Apr 10 14:42:11 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 14:42:11 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] welcome to Providence Message-ID: <CAMuBKpdnZXAGtQr5vpogWDa0=JwH_GCypM--EWtmVoBiQBq6tQ@mail.gmail.com> i hope all are arriving well, the Biltmore is comfortable and so on. I won't be joining you for dinner tonight, but Syd will be there. A few last minute things: 1. Syd will have your swipe cards for the library. If you don't make it to dinner, you can get it from him in the lobby of the Rockefeller Library in the morning. 2. We will have our morning session in the Rock Conference Room - when you enter the library, turn left before entering through the glass gate, and walk straight towards the conference room. There is a class in the DSL, so rather than move in and out, we thought it better to use a different room. Afternoon in the DSL as planned. 3. Best to come charged up for our morning session. We'll have some power strips for those who need them. all the time. Our scheduled room is just filthy with power outlets, so you should be ok for the rest of the meeting. Send email if you have any questions, are lost or otherwise need help. thank you, --elli From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 10 15:14:20 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 15:14:20 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] welcome to Providence In-Reply-To: <CAMuBKpdnZXAGtQr5vpogWDa0=JwH_GCypM--EWtmVoBiQBq6tQ@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpdnZXAGtQr5vpogWDa0=JwH_GCypM--EWtmVoBiQBq6tQ@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5165BA0C.8050903@uvic.ca> I made it as planned -- room 320. The Biltmore is a cut above what I'm used to (although there's no hot water at the moment -- they're working on it). Planning on snoozing till 7. See you all then! Cheers, Martin On 13-04-10 02:42 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > i hope all are arriving well, the Biltmore is comfortable and so on. > > I won't be joining you for dinner tonight, but Syd will be there. A > few last minute things: > > 1. Syd will have your swipe cards for the library. If you don't make > it to dinner, you can get it from him in the lobby of the Rockefeller > Library in the morning. > > 2. We will have our morning session in the Rock Conference Room - when > you enter the library, turn left before entering through the glass > gate, and walk straight towards the conference room. There is a class > in the DSL, so rather than move in and out, we thought it better to > use a different room. Afternoon in the DSL as planned. > > 3. Best to come charged up for our morning session. We'll have some > power strips for those who need them. all the time. Our scheduled room > is just filthy with power outlets, so you should be ok for the rest of > the meeting. > > Send email if you have any questions, are lost or otherwise need help. > > thank you, --elli > From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Apr 10 16:28:38 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:28:38 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Approval of SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication. In-Reply-To: <515DA379.3010001@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> <515D76DA.8080908@uvic.ca> <515D8601.8050106@ultraslavonic.info> <515D96A8.80407@it.ox.ac.uk> <515DA379.3010001@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20837.52086.551481.133994@emt.ad.brown.edu> I'm not objecting to what has or will happen with this SIG. Just want to point out that historically the reason the Technical Council has "yes/no" approval over the creation of SIGs is merely to prevent, or at least make explicit to involved parties, any overlap between the proposed SIG and existing SIGs, WGs, Council subcommittees, etc. Council might make suggestions, but had no authority over SIGs. (That may have changed since I last payed attention to this issue 4+ years ago.) From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 16:34:10 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 16:34:10 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] welcome to Providence In-Reply-To: <5165BA0C.8050903@uvic.ca> References: <CAMuBKpdnZXAGtQr5vpogWDa0=JwH_GCypM--EWtmVoBiQBq6tQ@mail.gmail.com> <5165BA0C.8050903@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <CAA2irt+Tzk48yt0=NwvWAiX5qdL5ujRRV1bF-vde2Xbv4B35bg@mail.gmail.com> I'm here, too, on the 5th floor. Everything is lovely so far, wi-fi working, etc. See you soon... Becky On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > I made it as planned -- room 320. The Biltmore is a cut above what I'm > used to (although there's no hot water at the moment -- they're working > on it). > > Planning on snoozing till 7. See you all then! > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-04-10 02:42 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >> i hope all are arriving well, the Biltmore is comfortable and so on. >> >> I won't be joining you for dinner tonight, but Syd will be there. A >> few last minute things: >> >> 1. Syd will have your swipe cards for the library. If you don't make >> it to dinner, you can get it from him in the lobby of the Rockefeller >> Library in the morning. >> >> 2. We will have our morning session in the Rock Conference Room - when >> you enter the library, turn left before entering through the glass >> gate, and walk straight towards the conference room. There is a class >> in the DSL, so rather than move in and out, we thought it better to >> use a different room. Afternoon in the DSL as planned. >> >> 3. Best to come charged up for our morning session. We'll have some >> power strips for those who need them. all the time. Our scheduled room >> is just filthy with power outlets, so you should be ok for the rest of >> the meeting. >> >> Send email if you have any questions, are lost or otherwise need help. >> >> thank you, --elli >> > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 10 16:51:17 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 21:51:17 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] welcome to Providence In-Reply-To: <CAA2irt+Tzk48yt0=NwvWAiX5qdL5ujRRV1bF-vde2Xbv4B35bg@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpdnZXAGtQr5vpogWDa0=JwH_GCypM--EWtmVoBiQBq6tQ@mail.gmail.com> <5165BA0C.8050903@uvic.ca> <CAA2irt+Tzk48yt0=NwvWAiX5qdL5ujRRV1bF-vde2Xbv4B35bg@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5165D0C5.1010902@retired.ox.ac.uk> +1 from me, also on the 5th floor! On 10/04/13 21:34, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: > I'm here, too, on the 5th floor. Everything is lovely so far, wi-fi > working, etc. See you soon... > > Becky > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: >> I made it as planned -- room 320. The Biltmore is a cut above what I'm >> used to (although there's no hot water at the moment -- they're working >> on it). >> >> Planning on snoozing till 7. See you all then! >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-04-10 02:42 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >>> i hope all are arriving well, the Biltmore is comfortable and so on. >>> >>> I won't be joining you for dinner tonight, but Syd will be there. A >>> few last minute things: >>> >>> 1. Syd will have your swipe cards for the library. If you don't make >>> it to dinner, you can get it from him in the lobby of the Rockefeller >>> Library in the morning. >>> >>> 2. We will have our morning session in the Rock Conference Room - when >>> you enter the library, turn left before entering through the glass >>> gate, and walk straight towards the conference room. There is a class >>> in the DSL, so rather than move in and out, we thought it better to >>> use a different room. Afternoon in the DSL as planned. >>> >>> 3. Best to come charged up for our morning session. We'll have some >>> power strips for those who need them. all the time. Our scheduled room >>> is just filthy with power outlets, so you should be ok for the rest of >>> the meeting. >>> >>> Send email if you have any questions, are lost or otherwise need help. >>> >>> thank you, --elli >>> >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 10 17:48:34 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 21:48:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] welcome to Providence In-Reply-To: <5165BA0C.8050903@uvic.ca> References: <CAMuBKpdnZXAGtQr5vpogWDa0=JwH_GCypM--EWtmVoBiQBq6tQ@mail.gmail.com>, <5165BA0C.8050903@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <upt0uwncxtw5kkk4rvljqv8u.1365630511132@email.android.com> I'm in room 1020 should anyone need me. Otherwise assuming plan is still to meet in lobby at 7pm for supper. James -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: I made it as planned -- room 320. The Biltmore is a cut above what I'm used to (although there's no hot water at the moment -- they're working on it). Planning on snoozing till 7. See you all then! Cheers, Martin On 13-04-10 02:42 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > i hope all are arriving well, the Biltmore is comfortable and so on. > > I won't be joining you for dinner tonight, but Syd will be there. A > few last minute things: > > 1. Syd will have your swipe cards for the library. If you don't make > it to dinner, you can get it from him in the lobby of the Rockefeller > Library in the morning. > > 2. We will have our morning session in the Rock Conference Room - when > you enter the library, turn left before entering through the glass > gate, and walk straight towards the conference room. There is a class > in the DSL, so rather than move in and out, we thought it better to > use a different room. Afternoon in the DSL as planned. > > 3. Best to come charged up for our morning session. We'll have some > power strips for those who need them. all the time. Our scheduled room > is just filthy with power outlets, so you should be ok for the rest of > the meeting. > > Send email if you have any questions, are lost or otherwise need help. > > thank you, --elli > -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 10 17:55:57 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 21:55:57 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Approval of SIG for Computer-Mediated Communication. In-Reply-To: <20837.52086.551481.133994@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <515D4F7C.50008@it.ox.ac.uk> <515D76DA.8080908@uvic.ca> <515D8601.8050106@ultraslavonic.info> <515D96A8.80407@it.ox.ac.uk> <515DA379.3010001@it.ox.ac.uk>, <20837.52086.551481.133994@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <cpg6al2vvm4lanprcopwqmfj.1365630955117@email.android.com> That is my understanding as well. We also have new the right to prevent them if we thought they were doing something counter to the mission of the TEI, however, that really isn't an issue here, nor is overlap with other activities. James -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu> wrote: I'm not objecting to what has or will happen with this SIG. Just want to point out that historically the reason the Technical Council has "yes/no" approval over the creation of SIGs is merely to prevent, or at least make explicit to involved parties, any overlap between the proposed SIG and existing SIGs, WGs, Council subcommittees, etc. Council might make suggestions, but had no authority over SIGs. (That may have changed since I last payed attention to this issue 4+ years ago.) -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Wed Apr 10 23:18:27 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:18:27 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Duplicate pages on tei-c In-Reply-To: <5148812D.1090000@uvic.ca> References: <51485D49.8090805@uvic.ca> <51486D10.4030101@ultraslavonic.info> <5148812D.1090000@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <CAA2irt+BK5v8OqUqKvdGt+HA=7-kkcZEQTrDiR4-mOhm3SYMRw@mail.gmail.com> On the pages that Kevin mentions: The page at http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get_p5.xml is fairly short and repeats some of the same information available at http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/index.xml#body.1_div.1 Perhaps all of get_p5.xml could simply be collapsed into this subsection of http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/index.xml. Then get_p5.xml (and the link to it) could be retired. On the original redundancy Martin pointed out: I like Martin's suggestion to add the instructions for contributors to http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml. As well, it looks like tei-emacs has already been removed from get.xml, while it lingers in tcw06.xml, so perhaps the former is more up to date. But what would it mean to retire a council working paper, as Martin proposed to do with tcw06.xml? All of these working papers have dates attached to them. Even if most of the content of tcw06.xml is now repeated elsewhere on tei-c.org, should it stay where it is as evidence of documentation produced by the council in 2007? Becky On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > On 13-03-19 06:50 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> Martin, to clarify, when you say that get.xml isn't accessible from the >> menu system, you mean that you can't find any page on www.tei-c.org from >> which you can reach this page using either the drop-down navbar at the >> top or the links on the left of any pages? If so, I should note that as >> a general rule, not all pages are in fact accessible this way. For >> example, http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/ lists 24 >> documents, but they're not listed to the left. >> >> I will, however, note that http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml is >> linked in the text of http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/index.xml . So >> is http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get_p5.xml . There seems to be >> significant overlap in them. Every time I sit down to think about how >> to merge them, I recoil at the prospect and decide to put it off to >> another day. > > I know, my heart is sinking too. But I think it's worth doing. I was > thinking that we might have a single page with two sections: > > Checking out code as a user > > Checking out code as a contributor > > The page could live at the current get.xml location, and TCW 6 might > then be retired. We have contributors who are not on Council, and I > don't really think that the instructions for contributors should be > different depending on whether they're on Council or not, so one page > outside the Council area would presumably be sufficient. > > We also need to look at the status of the other projects listed on that > page. Sebastian has already said that we can remove tei-emacs from > documentation like this. It looks to me as though TEI-OO is now obsolete > as well; Sebastian has written good working ODT converters (no longer > specific to Open Office), and has completed the "plans for some filters > for Microsoft Word". Shall we just remove that one? > > Cheers, > Martin > >> >> --K. >> >> On 3/19/2013 8:42 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> Hi there, >>> >>> This page: >>> >>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> >>> >>> looks like a variant of this page: >>> >>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw06.xml> >>> >>> In addition, the first one (get.xml) doesn't seem to be accessible from >>> the menu system. >>> >>> Could we remove the first one, or does anyone know of links to it, or a >>> need for it? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin > > -- > Martin Holmes > University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre > (mholmes at uvic.ca) > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 10 23:47:43 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 23:47:43 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Ticket Grouping Assignments Message-ID: <5166325F.4040409@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi All, I've updated http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2013-04 For Amber Feature Requests and Amber Bugs, I've added some tentative groupings and assigned a group of people for each of the sets of tickets. I've tried to balance tickets I think people will be interested in, moving people to new groups so they are not _always_ with the same people. I've not included Green FR/Bugs or Red ones for now since that majority of these are either uncontroversial and awaiting implementation or need more proposals from the ticket creator. When we finish all the ambers we will move on to the Greens and Reds. When we break into groups for discussion the group will be expected to return with: - A brief summary of the ticket - What Council's options are regarding it - A recommendation of what to do (accept - which proposal? / reject / postpone / ask for more details) - Who either from this breakout group, Council as a whole, or the community can reasonably be asked to implement this. Best, -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Apr 11 00:00:31 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 00:00:31 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Ticket Grouping Assignments In-Reply-To: <5166325F.4040409@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <5166325F.4040409@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5166355F.8010604@it.ox.ac.uk> Oh and just to say that you *can* swap groups but you need to find someone to swap with you and get their agreement. ;-) -James On 10/04/13 23:47, James Cummings wrote: > Hi All, > > I've updated http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_agenda_2013-04 > > For Amber Feature Requests and Amber Bugs, I've added some > tentative groupings and assigned a group of people for each of > the sets of tickets. I've tried to balance tickets I think people > will be interested in, moving people to new groups so they are > not _always_ with the same people. > > I've not included Green FR/Bugs or Red ones for now since that > majority of these are either uncontroversial and awaiting > implementation or need more proposals from the ticket creator. > When we finish all the ambers we will move on to the Greens and Reds. > > When we break into groups for discussion the group will be > expected to return with: > > - A brief summary of the ticket > - What Council's options are regarding it > - A recommendation of what to do (accept - which proposal? / > reject / postpone / ask for more details) > - Who either from this breakout group, Council as a whole, or the > community can reasonably be asked to implement this. > > Best, > > -James > > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Thu Apr 11 07:30:44 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 07:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] welcome to Providence In-Reply-To: <CAA2irt+Tzk48yt0=NwvWAiX5qdL5ujRRV1bF-vde2Xbv4B35bg@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAMuBKpdnZXAGtQr5vpogWDa0=JwH_GCypM--EWtmVoBiQBq6tQ@mail.gmail.com> <5165BA0C.8050903@uvic.ca> <CAA2irt+Tzk48yt0=NwvWAiX5qdL5ujRRV1bF-vde2Xbv4B35bg@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304110729300.27762@zaxxon.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> back from Boston late last night. Not online till this am. heading out now to seek breakfast and plasters. see you at 8:30 in rock. pfs On Wed, 10 Apr 2013, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: > I'm here, too, on the 5th floor. Everything is lovely so far, wi-fi > working, etc. See you soon... > > Becky > > On Wed, Apr 10, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: >> I made it as planned -- room 320. The Biltmore is a cut above what I'm >> used to (although there's no hot water at the moment -- they're working >> on it). >> >> Planning on snoozing till 7. See you all then! >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-04-10 02:42 PM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: >>> i hope all are arriving well, the Biltmore is comfortable and so on. >>> >>> I won't be joining you for dinner tonight, but Syd will be there. A >>> few last minute things: >>> >>> 1. Syd will have your swipe cards for the library. If you don't make >>> it to dinner, you can get it from him in the lobby of the Rockefeller >>> Library in the morning. >>> >>> 2. We will have our morning session in the Rock Conference Room - when >>> you enter the library, turn left before entering through the glass >>> gate, and walk straight towards the conference room. There is a class >>> in the DSL, so rather than move in and out, we thought it better to >>> use a different room. Afternoon in the DSL as planned. >>> >>> 3. Best to come charged up for our morning session. We'll have some >>> power strips for those who need them. all the time. Our scheduled room >>> is just filthy with power outlets, so you should be ok for the rest of >>> the meeting. >>> >>> Send email if you have any questions, are lost or otherwise need help. >>> >>> thank you, --elli >>> >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Apr 11 08:41:42 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 08:41:42 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Council minutes google doc Message-ID: <5166AF86.3090507@it.ox.ac.uk> The world should have read/write access at http://tinyurl.com/tei-council2013-04 -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Apr 11 23:32:48 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2013 23:32:48 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Everyone please check over the minutes Message-ID: <51678060.2020307@uvic.ca> Hi all, This is just the usual reminder to please read the minutes and fix anything that's wrong or add anything that's missing. There's no way I can keep up with everything that's said, and although we've probably got every decision and action down, it's sometimes turned out to be very useful to have a good outline of the argument that led to it. If you said something and I didn't catch it or I misrepresented it, please fix it. The doc is here: <http://tinyurl.com/tei-council2013-04> Cheers, Martin From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Fri Apr 12 17:54:27 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2013 17:54:27 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Do the deprecation with me Message-ID: <CAA2irtJ=xayUXTrKQ1o-JTWq=wkrXsgJiq4oCQFnZ=fi=O0jdg@mail.gmail.com> Everybody's using the attribute key now (come on council, do the deprecation) We think @ref is better, but we'll let it be now (come on council, do the deprecation) We can't make every single project change its keys We'll recommend against it in the spec if you please In cases like these, deprecation's not the answer for me?. You gotta think of Birnbaum?. What breaks? How bad? Is it worth making everyone mad? To really deprecate something we must set a date now (come on council, do the deprecation) We'll wait two years before we break the current state now (come on council, do the deprecation) We'll announce it on the list and on a wiki page This should give everyone a chance to change their ways Come on, come on do the deprecation with me.... http://youtu.be/C5OoQadZTPk From mholmes at uvic.ca Sat Apr 13 06:54:53 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 06:54:53 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] List types in the Guidelines Message-ID: <5169397D.8090204@uvic.ca> I'm starting my work on lists in the Guidelines. There are lots of instances of <list type="gloss"> which really do seem to be gloss lists, and I think @type makes sense in this case: <head>Releases of the TEI Guidelines</head> <list type="gloss"> <label>P1</label> <item>1990, C.M. Sperberg-McQueen and Lou Burnard</item> <label>P2</label> <item>1992, C.M. Sperberg-McQueen and Lou Burnard</item> <label>P3</label> <item>1994, C.M. Sperberg-McQueen and Lou Burnard</item> <label>P4</label> <item>2001, Lou Burnard, Syd Bauman, and Steven DeRose</item> <label>P5</label> <item>2007, Lou Burnard and Syd Bauman</item> </list> However, there's this case in FM1 (the introductory note) where "gloss" seems just to be an error: <p> ...meetings were generously hosted by the following institutions: <list type="gloss"> <item>King's College, London (2002)</item> <item>Oxford University Computing Services (2003)</item> <item>Royal Academy of Dutch Language and Literature, Ghent (2004)</item> [...] </list> </p> Clearly, nothing is being glossed here. Can anyone suggest a good reason why this case might be "gloss"? Was there a requirement to render this particular list in a specific way to match other lists on the page? If not, I propose to change it to @rend="simple". Cheers, Martin From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Apr 13 08:00:08 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 08:00:08 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Do the deprecation with me In-Reply-To: <CAA2irtJ=xayUXTrKQ1o-JTWq=wkrXsgJiq4oCQFnZ=fi=O0jdg@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAA2irtJ=xayUXTrKQ1o-JTWq=wkrXsgJiq4oCQFnZ=fi=O0jdg@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20841.18632.793460.380234@emt.ad.brown.edu> Wow! Becky! That's *great* ... I *love* it! I laughed out loud. When I read it I had Carole King's cover of it going through my head, not the origina Little Eva version, but no matter. (It's a bit weird to say that, because (according to Wikipedia) Carole King and her husband Gerry Goffin wrote the song, but they wrote it for their baby sitter, Little Eva. King herself didn't start singing it publicly until the 1970s, I don't think.) Anyway, as promised, for the ABBA fans (or tolerators) among you: http://bauman.zapto.org/~syd/name-of-the-space.html > Everybody's using the attribute key now > (come on council, do the deprecation) > We think @ref is better, but we'll let it be now > (come on council, do the deprecation) > > We can't make every single project change its keys > We'll recommend against it in the spec if you please > In cases like these, deprecation's not the answer for me?. > > You gotta think of Birnbaum?. > What breaks? > How bad? > Is it worth making everyone mad? > > To really deprecate something we must set a date now > (come on council, do the deprecation) > We'll wait two years before we break the current state now > (come on council, do the deprecation) > > We'll announce it on the list and on a wiki page > This should give everyone a chance to change their ways > Come on, come on do the deprecation with me.... > > http://youtu.be/C5OoQadZTPk From mholmes at uvic.ca Sat Apr 13 16:24:34 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 16:24:34 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Old ticket. simple question Message-ID: <5169BF02.3030506@uvic.ca> Hi all, I found this old green ticket which is nearly done: <https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/351/> The one remaining question is: for attributes whose datatype is data.count, but which are unlikely ever to have the value zero (such as table/@cols and table/@rows), is it worth implementing a Schematron constraint to check for a zero value? In the light of Matthew's issue from today (marking the absence of things), I'm now inclined to believe that the availability of <table rows="0"> is a feature rather than a bug. If you think not, and you believe that we should add a Schematron constraint here, speak now, or I shall move ahead and close the ticket. Cheers, Martin From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 13 16:26:16 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 20:26:16 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SF bugs and feature requests Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1ECBA6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> there was a small set of things which were marked as open-accepted, which were masked from list of things to do. I have set them back to "open". you may all wish to look again at the green open tickets to check you see your actions -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 13 16:30:47 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 16:30:47 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] SF bugs and feature requests In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1ECBA6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1ECBA6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5169C077.5010509@it.ox.ac.uk> Yes, some of these are legacy from the conversion to Allura I think, as are some additional ones. However, you shouldn't only look at Green open tickets assigned to you, but all open tickets assigned to you. (Since the reason it is amber may be that we're waiting on you to do something...I know that is the case in some of mine.) -james On 13/04/13 16:26, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > there was a small set of things which were marked as open-accepted, which were masked from list > of things to do. I have set them back to "open". you may all wish to look again at the green open tickets > to check you see your actions > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 13 16:32:54 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 20:32:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SF bugs and feature requests In-Reply-To: <5169C077.5010509@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1ECBA6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5169C077.5010509@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1e8eef93-a65b-4cd5-9d57-c1227e7911c8@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 13 Apr 2013, at 16:30, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > However, you shouldn't only > look at Green open tickets assigned to you, but all open tickets > assigned to you. yeah, and how do you do that? is it possible to search across bugs and frs? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Sat Apr 13 23:09:43 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 23:09:43 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Numeric entity references in Guidelines text Message-ID: <516A1DF7.6030103@uvic.ca> Hi all, I'm going to be doing the conversion of list/@type to list/@rend by processing the Guidelines and Specs through XSLT. I have to use XSLT rather than regex search/replace because I need to leave alone all the instances in <egXML>s (meaning in a different namespace) because I need to change all those manually later, since the explanatory text will have to be changed at the same time. In the meantime, I'm going to do all the ones in the regular TEI namespace with XSLT. One side-effect of XSLT processing is the resolution of character entity references. So where the Guidelines code has this: <formula>n×(n-1)</formula> the output will resolve the numeric entity like this: <formula>n?(n-1)</formula> I would like to preserve the entity references in their original state, but the only way to do this is to specify the output encoding as us-ascii, and that means that ALL non-ASCII characters would become entities -- obviously not what we want. There's no actual way to preserve only the existing entities as entities; they're resolved to their codepoints during the XML parse before the XSLT transform is done. But I don't really think there's any reason to maintain the character entities, is there? There are only 13 in the Guidelines text, and 53 in the specs. Does anyone have any objection if they just get resolved to their characters? Most of them are uncontroversial things like accented es and degree signs that will display in most fonts anyway. Silence means "by all means go ahead, and I promise not to complain later when I notice what you did." Cheers, Martin From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 13 23:14:18 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 03:14:18 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Numeric entity references in Guidelines text In-Reply-To: <516A1DF7.6030103@uvic.ca> References: <516A1DF7.6030103@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1EE9BF@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> I am quite surprised the numeric entities survive, because the Guidelines have several times been through the cleaning flame of a complete XSLT rewrite several times. I think removing them is a positively good thing. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sun Apr 14 01:07:02 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 01:07:02 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Numeric entity references in Guidelines text In-Reply-To: <516A1DF7.6030103@uvic.ca> References: <516A1DF7.6030103@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20842.14710.677025.799683@emt.ad.brown.edu> 1) I don't care at all if you change numeric character entities to their characters or vice-versa. Feel free. 2) I'm not convinced that you really need to change those in <eg:egXML> later manually. (Although this is an academic point -- I don't care how you do it.) There are only 5 of them (i.e., <eg:list>) with @rend (and I think all 5 of those also have @type). So couldn't you do those by hand first, then globally change all? > I'm going to be doing the conversion of list/@type to list/@rend by > processing the Guidelines and Specs through XSLT. I have to use > XSLT rather than regex search/replace because I need to leave alone > all the instances in <egXML>s (meaning in a different namespace) > because I need to change all those manually later, since the > explanatory text will have to be changed at the same time. In the > meantime, I'm going to do all the ones in the regular TEI namespace > with XSLT. > > One side-effect of XSLT processing is the resolution of character > entity references. So where the Guidelines code has this: > > <formula>n×(n-1)</formula> > > the output will resolve the numeric entity like this: > > <formula>n?(n-1)</formula> > > I would like to preserve the entity references in their original > state, but the only way to do this is to specify the output encoding > as us-ascii, and that means that ALL non-ASCII characters would > become entities -- obviously not what we want. There's no actual way > to preserve only the existing entities as entities; they're resolved > to their codepoints during the XML parse before the XSLT transform is > done. > > But I don't really think there's any reason to maintain the character > entities, is there? There are only 13 in the Guidelines text, and 53 > in the specs. Does anyone have any objection if they just get > resolved to their characters? Most of them are uncontroversial things > like accented es and degree signs that will display in most fonts > anyway. > > Silence means "by all means go ahead, and I promise not to complain > later when I notice what you did." From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Apr 14 07:39:38 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 07:39:38 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Numeric entity references in Guidelines text In-Reply-To: <20842.14710.677025.799683@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <516A1DF7.6030103@uvic.ca> <20842.14710.677025.799683@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <516A957A.80108@uvic.ca> Hi Syd, I want to change our usage first, before changing the examples, because I want to take time to look at the examples -- there's explanatory text to rewrite there. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-14 01:07 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > 1) I don't care at all if you change numeric character entities to > their characters or vice-versa. Feel free. > > 2) I'm not convinced that you really need to change those in > <eg:egXML> later manually. (Although this is an academic point -- > I don't care how you do it.) There are only 5 of them (i.e., > <eg:list>) with @rend (and I think all 5 of those also have > @type). So couldn't you do those by hand first, then globally > change all? > >> I'm going to be doing the conversion of list/@type to list/@rend by >> processing the Guidelines and Specs through XSLT. I have to use >> XSLT rather than regex search/replace because I need to leave alone >> all the instances in <egXML>s (meaning in a different namespace) >> because I need to change all those manually later, since the >> explanatory text will have to be changed at the same time. In the >> meantime, I'm going to do all the ones in the regular TEI namespace >> with XSLT. >> >> One side-effect of XSLT processing is the resolution of character >> entity references. So where the Guidelines code has this: >> >> <formula>n×(n-1)</formula> >> >> the output will resolve the numeric entity like this: >> >> <formula>n?(n-1)</formula> >> >> I would like to preserve the entity references in their original >> state, but the only way to do this is to specify the output encoding >> as us-ascii, and that means that ALL non-ASCII characters would >> become entities -- obviously not what we want. There's no actual way >> to preserve only the existing entities as entities; they're resolved >> to their codepoints during the XML parse before the XSLT transform is >> done. >> >> But I don't really think there's any reason to maintain the character >> entities, is there? There are only 13 in the Guidelines text, and 53 >> in the specs. Does anyone have any objection if they just get >> resolved to their characters? Most of them are uncontroversial things >> like accented es and degree signs that will display in most fonts >> anyway. >> >> Silence means "by all means go ahead, and I promise not to complain >> later when I notice what you did." From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 14 17:59:07 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 21:59:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] thanks Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1F1420@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> may I be the first to thank Elli and Syd very much for their impeccable welcome, organisation, and hosting? may all such meetings be blessed with a person who understands biscuits as well as Elli.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 14 18:04:05 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 22:04:05 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] thanks In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1F1420@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1F1420@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <19ec5e8b-2dea-4810-9a24-6fc93856f69d@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Hear hear. Splendid spinach pie too. Sent from Samsung Mobile -------- Original message -------- From: Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> Date: 14/04/2013 17:59 (GMT-05:00) To: TEI Council <tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU> Subject: [tei-council] thanks may I be the first to thank Elli and Syd very much for their impeccable welcome, organisation, and hosting? may all such meetings be blessed with a person who understands biscuits as well as Elli.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 14 18:06:35 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 22:06:35 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] thanks In-Reply-To: <imn26v9yavy5n25diomyrm53.1365977038840@email.android.com> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1F1420@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <imn26v9yavy5n25diomyrm53.1365977038840@email.android.com> Message-ID: <989809ea-eefc-4fa8-ba44-46ecc19363cb@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 14 Apr 2013, at 18:04, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Hear hear. Splendid spinach pie too. the spinach pie most certainly out balanced the slightly dodgy Mr Red Fez :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun Apr 14 19:35:32 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 19:35:32 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] thanks In-Reply-To: <19ec5e8b-2dea-4810-9a24-6fc93856f69d@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A1F1420@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <19ec5e8b-2dea-4810-9a24-6fc93856f69d@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <516B3D44.2030607@uvic.ca> From me too. Splendid hospitality! Cheers, Martin On 13-04-14 06:04 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > Hear hear. Splendid spinach pie too. > > > Sent from Samsung Mobile > > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> > Date: 14/04/2013 17:59 (GMT-05:00) > To: TEI Council <tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU> > Subject: [tei-council] thanks > > > may I be the first to thank Elli and Syd very much for their impeccable welcome, organisation, and hosting? may all such meetings be blessed with a person who understands biscuits as well as Elli.... > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From bbarney2 at unl.edu Tue Apr 16 13:26:27 2013 From: bbarney2 at unl.edu (Brett Barney) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:26:27 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Food per diem amounts In-Reply-To: <515EEE3B.9030309@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <515EEE3B.9030309@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <2F87A2E4-6374-46BD-AEF9-8C1DDE947D04@unl.edu> Hi James and all, Directives from last year indicated that our per diem rate was 70% of the US State Dept.'s figure, which would mean $50/day. Assuming that's right, I think the by-meal breakdown would go like this: breakfast: $12.50 (25%) lunch: $17.50 (35%) supper: $20 (40%) Does this all seem right? Thanks, Brett On Apr 5, 2013, at 10:31 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > A reminder that the maximum per diem for all meals for a TEI > council meeting is $71/day. > > These come from the GSA rates at > http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/104877 (when the location is > within the US, we use the State Department's rates > http://aoprals.state.gov/web920/per_diem.asp when outside). > > Previously we've broken these into Breakfast/Lunch/Dinner to > match the > > http://www.tei-c.org/Admin/TEI_travel_form.pdf > > but that is the target that you should be trying to keep under if > you don't want to be out-of-pocket. > > In the cases where we are all having a meal out together it has > often been the case that someone whose credit card is in local US > currency will pay and then submit a full and detailed receipt to > be reimbursed for this. (This stops extra expenses from exchange > rates, etc.) In cases where someone pays then you should _not_ > claim for that meal, lest JohnU get confused. > > Best, > > -James > > > -- > Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > ---------------- Brett Barney Associate Research Professor Center for Digital Research in the Humanities bbarney2 at unl.edu From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Apr 16 15:35:58 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 12:35:58 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Last call for changes to the minutes Message-ID: <516DA81E.3050106@uvic.ca> Hi all, I'm planning to encode the minutes for the TEI website (and generate the Actions page for the wiki from them) next week. Please make sure that you've read over everything and corrected any errors or omissions you see by the end of this week. <http://tinyurl.com/tei-council2013-04> Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr 16 17:07:41 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 21:07:41 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Last call for changes to the minutes In-Reply-To: <516DA81E.3050106@uvic.ca> References: <516DA81E.3050106@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <0q2ce4vl3rnhjbsyky5ma1a1.1366146370456@email.android.com> Hi Martin, I thought I said that I'd do this since you and others did such a good job of writing the minutes. Still happy to do so over the weekend. James -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: Hi all, I'm planning to encode the minutes for the TEI website (and generate the Actions page for the wiki from them) next week. Please make sure that you've read over everything and corrected any errors or omissions you see by the end of this week. <http://tinyurl.com/tei-council2013-04> Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Apr 16 20:12:51 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 17:12:51 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Sourceforge commits are failing Message-ID: <516DE903.1060909@uvic.ca> Something seems to be badly wrong with SourceForge; I was committing a few hundred files (all the Specs files), and it it froze in the middle, and it does the same thing every time I try to commit. This page: <https://sourceforge.net/apps/sfurl/sourceforge/index.php?short_id=sitestatus> which is supposed to give the site status, is also broken -- isup.me confirms it's "down for everyone", not just me. I'm going to take my changed files home on a USB stick and try again to commit them later, but in the meantime, if you have no strong reason to be working in the Specs directory, please leave it alone if you can. Once I've got this commit done, I'll write again and give the all-clear. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Apr 16 22:25:42 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 22:25:42 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Food per diem amounts In-Reply-To: <2F87A2E4-6374-46BD-AEF9-8C1DDE947D04@unl.edu> References: <515EEE3B.9030309@it.ox.ac.uk> <2F87A2E4-6374-46BD-AEF9-8C1DDE947D04@unl.edu> Message-ID: <516E0826.5060703@ultraslavonic.info> We use 70% of the US Department of State rates for locations outside the US. For locations inside the US, we use 100% of the US General Services Administration rate, rounded up to the nearest $10. But according to the full policy at: http://www.tei-c.org/Board/procedures.xml#body.1_div.8 we claim incidentals, though this hasn't been itemized on the reimbursement form since as long as I've been on Council. Anyway, I would just use the following for meals you purchased on your own while traveling to Providence: breakfast: $12 lunch: $18 dinner: $36 --K. On 4/16/13 1:26 PM, Brett Barney wrote: > Hi James and all, > > Directives from last year indicated that our per diem rate was 70% of the US State Dept.'s figure, which would mean $50/day. Assuming that's right, I think the by-meal breakdown would go like this: > > breakfast: $12.50 (25%) > lunch: $17.50 (35%) > supper: $20 (40%) > > Does this all seem right? > > Thanks, > Brett > > On Apr 5, 2013, at 10:31 AM, James Cummings wrote: > >> >> A reminder that the maximum per diem for all meals for a TEI >> council meeting is $71/day. >> >> These come from the GSA rates at >> http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/104877 (when the location is >> within the US, we use the State Department's rates >> http://aoprals.state.gov/web920/per_diem.asp when outside). >> >> Previously we've broken these into Breakfast/Lunch/Dinner to >> match the >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/Admin/TEI_travel_form.pdf >> >> but that is the target that you should be trying to keep under if >> you don't want to be out-of-pocket. >> >> In the cases where we are all having a meal out together it has >> often been the case that someone whose credit card is in local US >> currency will pay and then submit a full and detailed receipt to >> be reimbursed for this. (This stops extra expenses from exchange >> rates, etc.) In cases where someone pays then you should _not_ >> claim for that meal, lest JohnU get confused. >> >> Best, >> >> -James >> >> >> -- >> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> > > ---------------- > Brett Barney > Associate Research Professor > Center for Digital Research in the Humanities > bbarney2 at unl.edu > > > > > From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Apr 16 22:48:17 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:48:17 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] What is this file and why do we have it? Message-ID: <516E0D71.5040000@uvic.ca> Does anyone know why this file exists in the repo? <http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/P5/Source/Guidelines/en/PARTIND.xml> I can't see anything that's making use of it. Cheers, Martin From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Apr 16 23:37:13 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 23:37:13 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Duplicate pages on tei-c In-Reply-To: <CAA2irt+BK5v8OqUqKvdGt+HA=7-kkcZEQTrDiR4-mOhm3SYMRw@mail.gmail.com> References: <51485D49.8090805@uvic.ca> <51486D10.4030101@ultraslavonic.info> <5148812D.1090000@uvic.ca> <CAA2irt+BK5v8OqUqKvdGt+HA=7-kkcZEQTrDiR4-mOhm3SYMRw@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <516E18E9.5060401@ultraslavonic.info> Thanks, Martin and Becky, for nudging along this small but important cleanup work. I have combined the pages as Becky suggested and removed the now redundant get_p5.xml from the site. I have also added a note at the top of tcw06 pointing to get.xml as the more current version of this document. As suggested, we could still expand get.xml to distinguish between checking out code as a user versus contributor. The question of retiring TCWs is still out there. Some of them are clearly products of a particular time and a particular need and are not meant to be revisited (though fixing broken links can be a useful service to our readers); however, others, like styleguides, are needed indefinitely. This is simply one instance of the larger problem about policies for maintaining content published online -- a question that I don't have a good answer for. :( K. On 4/10/13 11:18 PM, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: > On the pages that Kevin mentions: > The page at http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get_p5.xml is fairly > short and repeats some of the same information available at > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/index.xml#body.1_div.1 > > Perhaps all of get_p5.xml could simply be collapsed into this > subsection of http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/index.xml. Then > get_p5.xml (and the link to it) could be retired. > > On the original redundancy Martin pointed out: > I like Martin's suggestion to add the instructions for contributors to > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml. As well, it looks like > tei-emacs has already been removed from get.xml, while it lingers in > tcw06.xml, so perhaps the former is more up to date. > > But what would it mean to retire a council working paper, as Martin > proposed to do with tcw06.xml? All of these working papers have dates > attached to them. Even if most of the content of tcw06.xml is now > repeated elsewhere on tei-c.org, should it stay where it is as > evidence of documentation produced by the council in 2007? > > Becky > > On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: >> On 13-03-19 06:50 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> Martin, to clarify, when you say that get.xml isn't accessible from the >>> menu system, you mean that you can't find any page on www.tei-c.org from >>> which you can reach this page using either the drop-down navbar at the >>> top or the links on the left of any pages? If so, I should note that as >>> a general rule, not all pages are in fact accessible this way. For >>> example, http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/ lists 24 >>> documents, but they're not listed to the left. >>> >>> I will, however, note that http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml is >>> linked in the text of http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/index.xml . So >>> is http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get_p5.xml . There seems to be >>> significant overlap in them. Every time I sit down to think about how >>> to merge them, I recoil at the prospect and decide to put it off to >>> another day. >> >> I know, my heart is sinking too. But I think it's worth doing. I was >> thinking that we might have a single page with two sections: >> >> Checking out code as a user >> >> Checking out code as a contributor >> >> The page could live at the current get.xml location, and TCW 6 might >> then be retired. We have contributors who are not on Council, and I >> don't really think that the instructions for contributors should be >> different depending on whether they're on Council or not, so one page >> outside the Council area would presumably be sufficient. >> >> We also need to look at the status of the other projects listed on that >> page. Sebastian has already said that we can remove tei-emacs from >> documentation like this. It looks to me as though TEI-OO is now obsolete >> as well; Sebastian has written good working ODT converters (no longer >> specific to Open Office), and has completed the "plans for some filters >> for Microsoft Word". Shall we just remove that one? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >>> >>> --K. >>> >>> On 3/19/2013 8:42 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> Hi there, >>>> >>>> This page: >>>> >>>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/get.xml> >>>> >>>> looks like a variant of this page: >>>> >>>> <http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw06.xml> >>>> >>>> In addition, the first one (get.xml) doesn't seem to be accessible from >>>> the menu system. >>>> >>>> Could we remove the first one, or does anyone know of links to it, or a >>>> need for it? >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >> >> -- >> Martin Holmes >> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre >> (mholmes at uvic.ca) >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Apr 16 23:45:44 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2013 20:45:44 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] XInclude namespace in chapters Message-ID: <516E1AE8.4010908@uvic.ca> I've been struggling for a while this evening to figure out why I couldn't validate the chapter source files; Oxygen was complaining that the XInclude element wasn't allowed in e.g. <specGrp>, but I have Oxygen set up to do XIncludes before trying to validate. Finally I realized that all the XInclude elements in the chapters have this namespace: http://www.w3.org/2003/XInclude whereas the actual XInclude namespace is this: http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude (2001, not 2003). The 2003 namespace placeholder says: "This document describes the namespace http://www.w3.org/2003/XInclude. This namespace name is deprecated and must not be used. Please use http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude instead. " Any reason why I shouldn't change this? It'll make it possible for us to validate chapter fragments automatically. Cheers, Martin From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Apr 17 03:23:03 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 03:23:03 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] XInclude namespace in chapters In-Reply-To: <516E1AE8.4010908@uvic.ca> References: <516E1AE8.4010908@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20846.19927.673019.893507@emt.ad.brown.edu> No reason -- we should change them all to 2001, IMHO. But it does raise the question: what namespace would we use if we wanted to show XInclude in an <egXML>? (Can't use http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude, of course, lest a processor muck up the example by trying to process the <include> element.) Currently we don't seem to have any elements with local name 'include' or 'fallback' inside an <teix:egXML>. > I've been struggling for a while this evening to figure out why I > couldn't validate the chapter source files; Oxygen was complaining > that the XInclude element wasn't allowed in e.g. <specGrp>, but I > have Oxygen set up to do XIncludes before trying to validate. Finally > I realized that all the XInclude elements in the chapters have this > namespace: > > http://www.w3.org/2003/XInclude > > whereas the actual XInclude namespace is this: > > http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude > > (2001, not 2003). > > The 2003 namespace placeholder says: > > "This document describes the namespace > http://www.w3.org/2003/XInclude. This namespace name is deprecated > and must not be used. Please use http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude > instead. " > > Any reason why I shouldn't change this? It'll make it possible for us > to validate chapter fragments automatically. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 17 04:38:24 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 08:38:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] XInclude namespace in chapters In-Reply-To: <20846.19927.673019.893507@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <516E1AE8.4010908@uvic.ca> <20846.19927.673019.893507@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A204BA8@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> weird. i had no idea there were two namespaces > But it does raise the question: what namespace would we use if we > wanted to show XInclude in an <egXML>? I'd use <eg> in that situation :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 17 04:39:05 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 08:39:05 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] What is this file and why do we have it? In-Reply-To: <516E0D71.5040000@uvic.ca> References: <516E0D71.5040000@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A204BD3@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 17 Apr 2013, at 03:48, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > Does anyone know why this file exists in the repo? > > <http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/P5/Source/Guidelines/en/PARTIND.xml> > > I can't see anything that's making use of it. > strange. _something_ triggers the index build in the PDF -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 17 08:38:06 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 05:38:06 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] XInclude namespace in chapters In-Reply-To: <20846.19927.673019.893507@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <516E1AE8.4010908@uvic.ca> <20846.19927.673019.893507@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <516E97AE.6060108@uvic.ca> There is a cunning thing in p5odds.odd that allows you to fake up XInclude in tei:x examples -- take a look -- but it's a bit hacky. I think it would be best to use CDATA for this particular scenario. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-17 12:23 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > No reason -- we should change them all to 2001, IMHO. > > But it does raise the question: what namespace would we use if we > wanted to show XInclude in an <egXML>? (Can't use > http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude, of course, lest a processor muck up > the example by trying to process the <include> element.) > > Currently we don't seem to have any elements with local name > 'include' or 'fallback' inside an <teix:egXML>. > >> I've been struggling for a while this evening to figure out why I >> couldn't validate the chapter source files; Oxygen was complaining >> that the XInclude element wasn't allowed in e.g. <specGrp>, but I >> have Oxygen set up to do XIncludes before trying to validate. Finally >> I realized that all the XInclude elements in the chapters have this >> namespace: >> >> http://www.w3.org/2003/XInclude >> >> whereas the actual XInclude namespace is this: >> >> http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude >> >> (2001, not 2003). >> >> The 2003 namespace placeholder says: >> >> "This document describes the namespace >> http://www.w3.org/2003/XInclude. This namespace name is deprecated >> and must not be used. Please use http://www.w3.org/2001/XInclude >> instead. " >> >> Any reason why I shouldn't change this? It'll make it possible for us >> to validate chapter fragments automatically. From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 17 08:42:53 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 05:42:53 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] What is this file and why do we have it? In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A204BD3@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <516E0D71.5040000@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A204BD3@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <516E98CD.6090508@uvic.ca> On 13-04-17 01:39 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 17 Apr 2013, at 03:48, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > >> Does anyone know why this file exists in the repo? >> >> <http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/P5/Source/Guidelines/en/PARTIND.xml> >> >> I can't see anything that's making use of it. >> > > strange. _something_ triggers the index build in the PDF I've renamed it to see if anything breaks. If the build fails, and you need to fix it immediately, just rename XXX_PARTIND.xml back to PARTIND.xml. But if nothing breaks (and we should remember to look at the actual PDF), I vote we remove it. Cheers, Martin > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From bbarney2 at unl.edu Wed Apr 17 10:03:15 2013 From: bbarney2 at unl.edu (Brett Barney) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:03:15 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Food per diem amounts In-Reply-To: <516E0826.5060703@ultraslavonic.info> References: <515EEE3B.9030309@it.ox.ac.uk> <2F87A2E4-6374-46BD-AEF9-8C1DDE947D04@unl.edu> <516E0826.5060703@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <F0B48A86-2E16-43F7-932A-DB319D116645@unl.edu> Hmmm. OK. Thanks! On Apr 16, 2013, at 9:25 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > We use 70% of the US Department of State rates for locations outside the > US. For locations inside the US, we use 100% of the US General Services > Administration rate, rounded up to the nearest $10. But according to > the full policy at: > > http://www.tei-c.org/Board/procedures.xml#body.1_div.8 > > we claim incidentals, though this hasn't been itemized on the > reimbursement form since as long as I've been on Council. > > Anyway, I would just use the following for meals you purchased on your > own while traveling to Providence: > > breakfast: $12 > lunch: $18 > dinner: $36 > > --K. > > On 4/16/13 1:26 PM, Brett Barney wrote: >> Hi James and all, >> >> Directives from last year indicated that our per diem rate was 70% of the US State Dept.'s figure, which would mean $50/day. Assuming that's right, I think the by-meal breakdown would go like this: >> >> breakfast: $12.50 (25%) >> lunch: $17.50 (35%) >> supper: $20 (40%) >> >> Does this all seem right? >> >> Thanks, >> Brett >> >> On Apr 5, 2013, at 10:31 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> >>> >>> A reminder that the maximum per diem for all meals for a TEI >>> council meeting is $71/day. >>> >>> These come from the GSA rates at >>> http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/104877 (when the location is >>> within the US, we use the State Department's rates >>> http://aoprals.state.gov/web920/per_diem.asp when outside). >>> >>> Previously we've broken these into Breakfast/Lunch/Dinner to >>> match the >>> >>> http://www.tei-c.org/Admin/TEI_travel_form.pdf >>> >>> but that is the target that you should be trying to keep under if >>> you don't want to be out-of-pocket. >>> >>> In the cases where we are all having a meal out together it has >>> often been the case that someone whose credit card is in local US >>> currency will pay and then submit a full and detailed receipt to >>> be reimbursed for this. (This stops extra expenses from exchange >>> rates, etc.) In cases where someone pays then you should _not_ >>> claim for that meal, lest JohnU get confused. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> -James >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk >>> Academic IT Services, University of Oxford >>> -- >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >>> >> >> ---------------- >> Brett Barney >> Associate Research Professor >> Center for Digital Research in the Humanities >> bbarney2 at unl.edu >> >> >> >> >> > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > ---------------- Brett Barney Associate Research Professor Center for Digital Research in the Humanities bbarney2 at unl.edu From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 17 12:44:37 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 09:44:37 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] What is this file and why do we have it? In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A204BD3@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <516E0D71.5040000@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A204BD3@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <516ED175.40907@uvic.ca> We do seem to need it. The build fails with the error below. But I'm still not clear on what it does. The error arises when Jenkins tries to copy the file to the set of archived artifacts. ERROR: Failed to archive artifacts: release/xml/**, release/doc/**,*.zip,tei-p5-*_*,teiwebsiteguidelines.zip hudson.util.IOException2: Failed to copy /var/lib/jenkins/jobs/TEIP5/workspace/release/xml/**, release/doc/**,*.zip,tei-p5-*_*,teiwebsiteguidelines.zip to /var/lib/jenkins/jobs/TEIP5/builds/2013-04-17_05-53-22/archive at hudson.FilePath$34.invoke(FilePath.java:1884) at hudson.FilePath$34.invoke(FilePath.java:1850) at hudson.FilePath.act(FilePath.java:904) at hudson.FilePath.act(FilePath.java:877) at hudson.FilePath.copyRecursiveTo(FilePath.java:1850) at hudson.tasks.ArtifactArchiver.perform(ArtifactArchiver.java:133) at hudson.tasks.BuildStepMonitor$1.perform(BuildStepMonitor.java:19) at hudson.model.AbstractBuild$AbstractBuildExecution.perform(AbstractBuild.java:802) at hudson.model.AbstractBuild$AbstractBuildExecution.performAllBuildSteps(AbstractBuild.java:774) at hudson.model.Build$BuildExecution.post2(Build.java:183) at hudson.model.AbstractBuild$AbstractBuildExecution.post(AbstractBuild.java:724) at hudson.model.Run.execute(Run.java:1600) at hudson.model.FreeStyleBuild.run(FreeStyleBuild.java:46) at hudson.model.ResourceController.execute(ResourceController.java:88) at hudson.model.Executor.run(Executor.java:237) Caused by: Failed to copy /var/lib/jenkins/jobs/TEIP5/workspace/release/xml/tei/odd/Source/Guidelines/fr/PARTIND.xml to /var/lib/jenkins/jobs/TEIP5/builds/2013-04-17_05-53-22/archive/release/xml/tei/odd/Source/Guidelines/fr/PARTIND.xml due to java.io.FileNotFoundException /var/lib/jenkins/jobs/TEIP5/workspace/release/xml/tei/odd/Source/Guidelines/fr/PARTIND.xml (No such file or directory) at org.apache.tools.ant.taskdefs.Copy.doFileOperations(Copy.java:914) at hudson.FilePath$34$1CopyImpl.doFileOperations(FilePath.java:1867) at org.apache.tools.ant.taskdefs.Copy.execute(Copy.java:567) at hudson.FilePath$34.invoke(FilePath.java:1881) ... 14 more Caused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: /var/lib/jenkins/jobs/TEIP5/workspace/release/xml/tei/odd/Source/Guidelines/fr/PARTIND.xml (No such file or directory) Cheers, Martin On 13-04-17 01:39 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 17 Apr 2013, at 03:48, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > >> Does anyone know why this file exists in the repo? >> >> <http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/P5/Source/Guidelines/en/PARTIND.xml> >> >> I can't see anything that's making use of it. >> > > strange. _something_ triggers the index build in the PDF > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 17 13:01:40 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 18:01:40 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] What is this file and why do we have it? In-Reply-To: <516ED175.40907@uvic.ca> References: <516E0D71.5040000@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A204BD3@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <516ED175.40907@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <516ED574.80801@retired.ox.ac.uk> It contains a <divGen>, which is presumably needed to generate the index at the back of the volume. I suggest grepping through the stylesheets for the point where <divGen> is processed. On 17/04/13 17:44, Martin Holmes wrote: > We do seem to need it. The build fails with the error below. > > But I'm still not clear on what it does. The error arises when Jenkins > tries to copy the file to the set of archived artifacts. > > ERROR: Failed to archive artifacts: release/xml/**, > release/doc/**,*.zip,tei-p5-*_*,teiwebsiteguidelines.zip > hudson.util.IOException2: Failed to copy > /var/lib/jenkins/jobs/TEIP5/workspace/release/xml/**, > release/doc/**,*.zip,tei-p5-*_*,teiwebsiteguidelines.zip to > /var/lib/jenkins/jobs/TEIP5/builds/2013-04-17_05-53-22/archive > at hudson.FilePath$34.invoke(FilePath.java:1884) > at hudson.FilePath$34.invoke(FilePath.java:1850) > at hudson.FilePath.act(FilePath.java:904) > at hudson.FilePath.act(FilePath.java:877) > at hudson.FilePath.copyRecursiveTo(FilePath.java:1850) > at hudson.tasks.ArtifactArchiver.perform(ArtifactArchiver.java:133) > at hudson.tasks.BuildStepMonitor$1.perform(BuildStepMonitor.java:19) > at > hudson.model.AbstractBuild$AbstractBuildExecution.perform(AbstractBuild.java:802) > at > hudson.model.AbstractBuild$AbstractBuildExecution.performAllBuildSteps(AbstractBuild.java:774) > at hudson.model.Build$BuildExecution.post2(Build.java:183) > at > hudson.model.AbstractBuild$AbstractBuildExecution.post(AbstractBuild.java:724) > at hudson.model.Run.execute(Run.java:1600) > at hudson.model.FreeStyleBuild.run(FreeStyleBuild.java:46) > at hudson.model.ResourceController.execute(ResourceController.java:88) > at hudson.model.Executor.run(Executor.java:237) > Caused by: Failed to copy > /var/lib/jenkins/jobs/TEIP5/workspace/release/xml/tei/odd/Source/Guidelines/fr/PARTIND.xml > to > /var/lib/jenkins/jobs/TEIP5/builds/2013-04-17_05-53-22/archive/release/xml/tei/odd/Source/Guidelines/fr/PARTIND.xml > due to java.io.FileNotFoundException > /var/lib/jenkins/jobs/TEIP5/workspace/release/xml/tei/odd/Source/Guidelines/fr/PARTIND.xml > (No such file or directory) > at org.apache.tools.ant.taskdefs.Copy.doFileOperations(Copy.java:914) > at hudson.FilePath$34$1CopyImpl.doFileOperations(FilePath.java:1867) > at org.apache.tools.ant.taskdefs.Copy.execute(Copy.java:567) > at hudson.FilePath$34.invoke(FilePath.java:1881) > ... 14 more > Caused by: java.io.FileNotFoundException: > /var/lib/jenkins/jobs/TEIP5/workspace/release/xml/tei/odd/Source/Guidelines/fr/PARTIND.xml > (No such file or directory) > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-04-17 01:39 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> On 17 Apr 2013, at 03:48, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know why this file exists in the repo? >>> >>> <http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/P5/Source/Guidelines/en/PARTIND.xml> >>> >>> I can't see anything that's making use of it. >>> >> strange. _something_ triggers the index build in the PDF >> >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> >> From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed Apr 17 22:02:49 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2013 22:02:49 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: password challenge from svn In-Reply-To: <a2f7398f-d575-4203-8c63-c98f323c9ff2@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51571303.6010704@tge-adonis.fr> <5161AFF8.3030709@retired.ox.ac.uk> <7ac62944-3650-4b42-a3e8-bdb362499211@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5161B163.5010609@kcl.ac.uk> <5161B38A.4030907@ultraslavonic.info> <5161BA6D.6080508@retired.ox.ac.uk> <a2f7398f-d575-4203-8c63-c98f323c9ff2@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <516F5449.4010402@ultraslavonic.info> Good, I've noted this at: http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/TEI-Council-FAQ#How_do_I_use_Subversion.3F On 4/7/13 3:25 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I registered my public key with Sourceforge, and now it doesnt challenge me any more, cos the > public key is in my keychain for the session. FWIW. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Apr 18 20:57:17 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 20:57:17 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] non-deterministic content models Message-ID: <5170966D.8050603@ultraslavonic.info> In our discussion of giving up DTDs, did someone say that if we gave up XSD as well, we could have non-deterministic content models? And then Lou said that there might be value in keeping to deterministic content models if only to clarify our thinking. If so, I'd like to elaborate http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/TEI-Council-FAQ#What_is_a_non-deterministic_content_model.3F to explain that only a certain type of validation fails. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Apr 18 23:03:33 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 23:03:33 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] non-deterministic content models In-Reply-To: <5170966D.8050603@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5170966D.8050603@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <20848.46085.689245.630570@emt.ad.brown.edu> I've elaborated the section on the wiki. > In our discussion of giving up DTDs, did someone say that if we > gave up XSD as well, we could have non-deterministic content > models? And then Lou said that there might be value in keeping to > deterministic content models if only to clarify our thinking. > > If so, I'd like to elaborate > > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/TEI-Council-FAQ#What_is_a_non-deterministic_content_model.3F > > to explain that only a certain type of validation fails. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Apr 18 23:05:47 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 23:05:47 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices Message-ID: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> It's me again. I know that you're all sick of discussing deprecation, but before our discussion in Providence fades too far from your memory, please look over the wiki page below: http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Practices_no_longer_recommended_or_now_deprecated I have tried to represent the discussion in Providence, filling in gaps where we didn't discuss something explicitly. I have also laid out a detailed path forward. But as you see, there are some important questions remaining for which I can't reconstruct any consensus from Providence: http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Practices_no_longer_recommended_or_now_deprecated#1._Decide_remaining_questions Could everyone please review by 1 May and respond on list or in the wiki page with questions and comments? I've started the discussion in the wiki (using ": " to indent the paragraph with my comment). Thanks, Kevin From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 19 04:42:11 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 08:42:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> a few things a) "The value of @validUntil shall be no sooner than two years from the date of the change." - did we agree on "no sooner than two years"? I vaguely thought it was one year from the date of the release in which the status changes. we did see-saw around that area b) we can automate the check in 3. of the wiki page. i.e. don't ask people to go grepping, but instead add to the build checks so that a validUntil which is less than 6 months away from todays date generates a warning and a validUntil which is after todays date generates an error. This will cause Jenkins to fail the build if we ignore a validUntil date. c) for 1 B, i would suggest a formal process whereby the release notes have a section listing all the Specs waiting on death row, with their date. so we write a script to generate a section for inclusion in the notes. anything which cane be automated, lets automate... I will wait to do the stylesheet changes until you have done the first @validUntil, so we have something to test on. it won't be hard, so shout when you're ready and we can get the implementation done quickly -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 19 04:58:34 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 08:58:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] <g> in <line> not allowed? In-Reply-To: <003c01ce3cda$67b8e270$372aa750$@ijs.si> References: <5170FB81.7020706@gmx.de> <003c01ce3cda$67b8e270$372aa750$@ijs.si> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A227632@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 19 Apr 2013, at 09:46, Tomaz Erjavec <tomaz.erjavec at IJS.SI> wrote: > This does look like a bug. I also noticed that <line> doesn't have a pointer to the section in which it is discussed, which can of course be very useful and (almost) all other elements have this information. But not all - I've noticed some others without the link into the Guidelines, but, alas, didn't make a record. Still, it shouldn't be too hard to identify them automatically I think (//elementSpec[not(listRef)]) - fixing them would take a bit longer though.. there are actually 60 offenders (listed below), which is a bit excessive. i am wondering whether to automate this by looking for the nearest ancestor <div> which has a specDesc pointing at the relevant element. would people agree this is a worthwhile strategy? age altIdent appInfo application attRef char charDecl charName charProp classRef climate code constraint dataName.xml elementRef event faith floruit glyph glyphName langKnowledge listChange listEvent listPlace listTranspose localName location macroRef mapping memberOf metamark mod moduleRef notatedMusic patch place population precision redo retrace schemaSpec sex sourceDoc specDesc specGrp specGrpRef specList state subst substJoin summary surface surfaceGrp terrain trait transpose undo unicodeName value zone -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 19 05:03:09 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:03:09 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] missing refLists (was Re: <g> in <line> not allowed) In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A227632@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5170FB81.7020706@gmx.de> <003c01ce3cda$67b8e270$372aa750$@ijs.si> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A227632@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5171084D.4060007@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 19/04/13 09:58, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > there are actually 60 offenders (listed below), which is a bit > excessive. i am wondering whether to automate this by looking for the > nearest ancestor <div> which has a specDesc pointing at the relevant > element. would people agree this is a worthwhile strategy? Sounds good to me! Dunno how I found an extra 3 -- I used Oxygen's nifty Xpath search -- maybe I was looking at a version of p5.xml From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 19 05:12:17 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 09:12:17 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] missing refLists (was Re: <g> in <line> not allowed) In-Reply-To: <5171084D.4060007@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5170FB81.7020706@gmx.de> <003c01ce3cda$67b8e270$372aa750$@ijs.si> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A227632@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5171084D.4060007@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <e4a53898-b7ca-4bac-8acd-d326386d475c@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 19 Apr 2013, at 10:03, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > On 19/04/13 09:58, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> there are actually 60 offenders (listed below), which is a bit >> excessive. i am wondering whether to automate this by looking for the >> nearest ancestor <div> which has a specDesc pointing at the relevant >> element. would people agree this is a worthwhile strategy? > > Sounds good to me! Dunno how I found an extra 3 -- I used Oxygen's > nifty Xpath search -- maybe I was looking at a version of p5.xml i did some crude grepping, might well have done it carelessly. do you agree my suggested algorithm would do the job? alternatively, we could make this a a rendering thing - if no listRef is found, generate a link on the fly using the "look for listSpec/@key=$me" system. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 19 05:16:36 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:16:36 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] missing refLists (was Re: <g> in <line> not allowed) In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2278B6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5170FB81.7020706@gmx.de> <003c01ce3cda$67b8e270$372aa750$@ijs.si> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A227632@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5171084D.4060007@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2278B6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51710B74.9060505@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 19/04/13 10:12, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > i did some crude grepping, might well have done it carelessly. crude greppin! I am *shockt* > > do you agree my suggested algorithm would do the job? yes, see above > alternatively, we could make this a a rendering thing - if no listRef is found, > generate a link on the fly using the "look for listSpec/@key=$me" system. not a bad fall back, but not as good as getting it right in the source From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 19 05:21:26 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:21:26 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] missing refLists (was Re: <g> in <line> not allowed) In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2278B6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5170FB81.7020706@gmx.de> <003c01ce3cda$67b8e270$372aa750$@ijs.si> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A227632@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5171084D.4060007@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2278B6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51710C96.4040501@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 19/04/13 10:12, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > i am wondering whether to automate this by looking for the > nearest ancestor <div> which has a specDesc pointing at the relevant > element. would people agree this is a worthwhile strategy? we probably need references to *all* such <div>s, since <specDesc>s for the same element can appear in multiple places. i suggest you try adding them automatically, and then we can check to see which ones have been missed. I won't be totally surprised to find a few elements which don't even make it into a specDesc. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 19 06:08:53 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 10:08:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] missing refLists (was Re: <g> in <line> not allowed) In-Reply-To: <51710C96.4040501@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5170FB81.7020706@gmx.de> <003c01ce3cda$67b8e270$372aa750$@ijs.si> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A227632@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5171084D.4060007@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2278B6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51710C96.4040501@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4fbf811a-dccb-4514-926c-b700a1e05057@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 19 Apr 2013, at 10:21, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > On 19/04/13 10:12, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> i am wondering whether to automate this by looking for the >> nearest ancestor <div> which has a specDesc pointing at the relevant >> element. would people agree this is a worthwhile strategy? > > we probably need references to *all* such <div>s, since <specDesc>s for the same element can appear in multiple places. fair does. if there's specDesc for an element, link to it mind you, i do think putting it in the source is redundant. if it can be derived automatically, which fossilise the current state? if you add a new section to a chapter and add a specDesc pointing at <line>, you''ll probably forget to update the spec for <line> itself > > i suggest you try adding them automatically, and then we can check to see which ones have been missed. I won't be totally surprised to find a few elements which don't even make it into a specDesc. > > i think i checked that just now, and didn't find any, but I agree there matt be some -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 19 06:41:09 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:41:09 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] missing refLists (was Re: <g> in <line> not allowed) In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A228043@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5170FB81.7020706@gmx.de> <003c01ce3cda$67b8e270$372aa750$@ijs.si> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A227632@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5171084D.4060007@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2278B6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51710C96.4040501@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A228043@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51711F45.5070107@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 19/04/13 11:08, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 19 Apr 2013, at 10:21, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> On 19/04/13 10:12, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> i am wondering whether to automate this by looking for the >>> nearest ancestor <div> which has a specDesc pointing at the relevant >>> element. would people agree this is a worthwhile strategy? >> we probably need references to *all* such <div>s, since <specDesc>s for the same element can appear in multiple places. > fair does. if there's specDesc for an element, link to it > > mind you, i do think putting it in the source is redundant. if it can be derived automatically, which fossilise the current state? if you add a new > section to a chapter and add a specDesc pointing at <line>, you''ll probably forget to update the spec for <line> itself That looks like the logic by which we stopped putting them in. With the consequences we now see. From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Fri Apr 19 06:47:54 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:47:54 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> On 2013-04-19 09:42, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > a) "The value of @validUntil shall be no sooner than two years from > the date of the change." - did we agree on "no sooner than two > years"? I thought it was one year from the date of the release in > which the status changes. we did see-saw around that area My recollection matches Kevin's; the rationale for this was that two years from committing the deprecation note *guarantees* at least one year from the release in which the deprecation is recorded to the release in which the element disappears. I've glossed the wiki page accordingly. > b) we can automate the check in 3. of the wiki page. i.e. don't ask people to go grepping, but instead add to the build checks so that a validUntil which is less than 6 months away from todays date generates a warning and a validUntil which is after todays date generates an error. This will cause Jenkins to fail the build if we ignore a validUntil date. > c) for 1 B, i would suggest a formal process whereby the release notes have a section listing all the Specs waiting on death row, with their date. so we write a script > to generate a section for inclusion in the notes. anything which cane be automated, lets automate... Agreed. Neither of these means that no human has to look at the deprecation and take an action (meaning that decisions can and will be reviewed), but they also help to make sure we don't lose sight of things we've planned to do or people we should have warned. > I will wait to do the stylesheet changes until you have done the first @validUntil, so we have something to test on. it won't be hard, > so shout when you're ready and we can get the implementation done quickly It would be nice if a couple of people other than Kevin tried this out too (maybe once Kevin and Sebastian have proved it doesn't explode). I'll keep an eye on my tickets for anything that could make use of @validUntil. (I'm not totally clear on how deprecation of a model--as opposed to a whole element of attribute--would work. Is everyone else?) G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 19 07:14:08 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:14:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] missing refLists (was Re: <g> in <line> not allowed) In-Reply-To: <51711F45.5070107@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5170FB81.7020706@gmx.de> <003c01ce3cda$67b8e270$372aa750$@ijs.si> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A227632@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5171084D.4060007@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2278B6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51710C96.4040501@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A228043@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51711F45.5070107@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <b388f8db-4a9b-4f80-aafb-2a24fbdadc0a@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 19 Apr 2013, at 11:41, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >> mind you, i do think putting it in the source is redundant. if it can be derived automatically, which fossilise the current state? if you add a new >> section to a chapter and add a specDesc pointing at <line>, you''ll probably forget to update the spec for <line> itself > > > That looks like the logic by which we stopped putting them in. With the consequences we now see. so we failed to do it right in the past. doesn't mean we should give up on the never-ending quest to simplify and automate. ... -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Apr 19 11:27:01 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 11:27:01 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51716245.6080907@ultraslavonic.info> Thanks for the quick responses, Gabby and Sebastian. More below ... On 4/19/2013 6:47 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > On 2013-04-19 09:42, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> a) "The value of @validUntil shall be no sooner than two years from >> the date of the change." - did we agree on "no sooner than two >> years"? I thought it was one year from the date of the release in >> which the status changes. we did see-saw around that area > > My recollection matches Kevin's; the rationale for this was that two > years from committing the deprecation note *guarantees* at least one > year from the release in which the deprecation is recorded to the > release in which the element disappears. I've glossed the wiki page > accordingly. Indeed. While what Sebastian said was suggested, the problem is that we don't know at a given time when exactly the next release will take place. >> b) we can automate the check in 3. of the wiki page. i.e. don't ask people to go grepping, but instead add to the build checks so that a validUntil which is less than 6 months away from todays date generates a warning and a validUntil which is after todays date generates an error. This will cause Jenkins to fail the build if we ignore a validUntil date. >> c) for 1 B, i would suggest a formal process whereby the release notes have a section listing all the Specs waiting on death row, with their date. so we write a script >> to generate a section for inclusion in the notes. anything which cane be automated, lets automate... > > Agreed. Neither of these means that no human has to look at the > deprecation and take an action (meaning that decisions can and will be > reviewed), but they also help to make sure we don't lose sight of things > we've planned to do or people we should have warned. Sebastian's idea is a good one. I've noted in the wiki. >> I will wait to do the stylesheet changes until you have done the first @validUntil, so we have something to test on. it won't be hard, >> so shout when you're ready and we can get the implementation done quickly > > It would be nice if a couple of people other than Kevin tried this out > too (maybe once Kevin and Sebastian have proved it doesn't explode). > I'll keep an eye on my tickets for anything that could make use of > @validUntil. (I'm not totally clear on how deprecation of a model--as > opposed to a whole element of attribute--would work. Is everyone else?) Good, we'll plan to test the @validUntil code before going through all of the recent deprecation actions. In general, yes, we should all be using this mechanism going forward. This means that in resolving tickets, we now can all be clearer in our use of the terms "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" -- because they now have technical definitions. K. From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Apr 19 12:06:11 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 09:06:11 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51716B73.6020803@uvic.ca> This bit, regarding "no longer recommended", confused me a little: "We will not add the "no longer recommended" practice to P6-dev. " Does that mean: - The feature which we no longer recommend will be removed from P6. - The disrecommendation will be removed from P6. - The feature will not be included in the P6-dev page. Re the To Do #1: I think the Guidelines themselves should contain an automatically-generated page or chapter listing deprecated items along with their validUntil dates. The Guidelines are most people's primary source of information; we can't assume they read the TEI-L list, read the release notes or go to the wiki. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-18 08:05 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > It's me again. > > I know that you're all sick of discussing deprecation, but before our > discussion in Providence fades too far from your memory, please look > over the wiki page below: > > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Practices_no_longer_recommended_or_now_deprecated > > I have tried to represent the discussion in Providence, filling in gaps > where we didn't discuss something explicitly. I have also laid out a > detailed path forward. > > But as you see, there are some important questions remaining for which I > can't reconstruct any consensus from Providence: > > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Practices_no_longer_recommended_or_now_deprecated#1._Decide_remaining_questions > > Could everyone please review by 1 May and respond on list or in the wiki > page with questions and comments? I've started the discussion in the > wiki (using ": " to indent the paragraph with my comment). > > Thanks, > > Kevin > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Apr 19 12:16:51 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 09:16:51 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] You can now validate Guidelines chapters and Specs easily Message-ID: <51716DF3.7040008@uvic.ca> Over the last few days Sebastian and I have been working on making it a bit easier for people to edit parts of the Guidelines and Specs and validate their work. Previously, if you were working on a document such as a Guidelines chapter or an elementSpec, you had to know specifically which schema to validate the document with -- a standard TEI schema wouldn't do it, because these files are rooted on <div>s or <*Spec> elements instead of the normal TEI root elements. Even if you knew which file you were supposed to be using, validation would often fail because of various idiosyncracies arising out of the fragmentary nature of the files. We have now ironed out those issues, and linked all the files in the repository to two schemas on Jenkins: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/xml/tei/odd/p5odds.rnc http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/xml/tei/odd/p5odds.isosch (one RelaxNG, one Schematron). You should now be able to edit files in the repo and validate the results before committing them to SVN, and thus to Jenkins. Those of us with full working TEI editing environments on Linux have always been able to find ways to validate our work, but now it should be much easier for everyone with an editor such as Oxygen on any platform to do it. So if you haven't dipped your feet into editing the source yet, take a look at <http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw20.xml> ("How to edit the Guidelines"). I'm going to update that page soon to add info about the schemas. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 19 12:25:15 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:25:15 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] You can now validate Guidelines chapters and Specs easily In-Reply-To: <51716DF3.7040008@uvic.ca> References: <51716DF3.7040008@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22B2FC@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 19 Apr 2013, at 17:16, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > We have now ironed out those issues, and linked all the files in the > repository to two schemas on Jenkins: > > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/xml/tei/odd/p5odds.rnc > > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/xml/tei/odd/p5odds.isosch it will probably be a good idea to point at the files on the www.tei-c.org site when that catches up, as the schema won't change that much. so regard this rather ugly URL as a relatively temporary stopgap. Syd will be glad to know that p5odds.odd does already have more checks than you might think, but of course there is room for more. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Apr 19 12:38:21 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 09:38:21 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] missing refLists (was Re: <g> in <line> not allowed) In-Reply-To: <4fbf811a-dccb-4514-926c-b700a1e05057@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5170FB81.7020706@gmx.de> <003c01ce3cda$67b8e270$372aa750$@ijs.si> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A227632@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5171084D.4060007@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2278B6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51710C96.4040501@retired.ox.ac.uk> <4fbf811a-dccb-4514-926c-b700a1e05057@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <517172FD.8040903@uvic.ca> >> mind you, i do think putting it in the source is redundant. if it can be derived automatically, which fossilise the current state? if you add a new >> section to a chapter and add a specDesc pointing at <line>, you''ll probably forget to update the spec for <line> itself This is risky. I just made this commit in January: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ r11556 | martindholmes | 2013-01-31 15:25:39 -0800 (Thu, 31 Jan 2013) | 8 lines relation, listRelation and the (deprecated) relationGrp all had links in their specs to the CC chapter, where none of them are mentioned. Changed the links to point to where listRelation and relation are explained, in ND. Also changed the @xml:id of the ND chapter section, which was the unconventional "relation", to the more conventional "NDPERSREL". There was only one ptr to "#relation", in the same chapter, which I've also updated. We don't want to introduce links from the reference page to a section of the Guidelines where the element or attribute is not actually discussed, nor do we want the first link in a series to be the least relevant. I think human oversight is required here. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-19 03:08 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 19 Apr 2013, at 10:21, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > >> On 19/04/13 10:12, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> >>> i am wondering whether to automate this by looking for the >>> nearest ancestor <div> which has a specDesc pointing at the relevant >>> element. would people agree this is a worthwhile strategy? >> >> we probably need references to *all* such <div>s, since <specDesc>s for the same element can appear in multiple places. > > fair does. if there's specDesc for an element, link to it > > mind you, i do think putting it in the source is redundant. if it can be derived automatically, which fossilise the current state? if you add a new > section to a chapter and add a specDesc pointing at <line>, you''ll probably forget to update the spec for <line> itself >> >> i suggest you try adding them automatically, and then we can check to see which ones have been missed. I won't be totally surprised to find a few elements which don't even make it into a specDesc. >> >> > i think i checked that just now, and didn't find any, but I agree there matt be some > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Apr 19 12:54:42 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 12:54:42 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <51716B73.6020803@uvic.ca> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <51716B73.6020803@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <517176D2.40508@ultraslavonic.info> Below ... On 4/19/2013 12:06 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > This bit, regarding "no longer recommended", confused me a little: > > "We will not add the "no longer recommended" practice to P6-dev." > > Does that mean: > > - The feature which we no longer recommend will be removed from P6. > > - The disrecommendation will be removed from P6. > > - The feature will not be included in the P6-dev page. I meant the third of these. I have elaborated the sentence in the document. As I understood our discussion, the decision to make something "no longer recommended" does not entail that it will definitely be removed in P6; therefore, we do not need to add this to the P6-dev page. > Re the To Do #1: > > I think the Guidelines themselves should contain an > automatically-generated page or chapter listing deprecated items along > with their validUntil dates. The Guidelines are most people's primary > source of information; we can't assume they read the TEI-L list, read > the release notes or go to the wiki. Noted in the wiki! From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 19 15:50:41 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 19:50:41 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] missing listRefs Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22BA47@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> I have generated <listRef> stanzas for 62 elements which did not have such a thing already. Seems to have worked nicely -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Apr 19 21:52:34 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2013 21:52:34 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] missing listRefs In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22BA47@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22BA47@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5171F4E2.2030703@ultraslavonic.info> I find the links from specs to associated chapters of the Guidelines extremely helpful when exploring elements in the HTML version of the Guidelines, so we should definitely keep them in some form. While it's tempting to have these inserted automatically as part of the build process (using an algorithm like the one Sebastian suggests), as Martin notes, there are times when an element is actually first discussed in a section that doesn't include the element in one of its specList. I've seen this in various element specs (though unfortunately no specific cases come to mind), so the case that Martin cites isn't an outlier. Perhaps, though, we should just start with the automatic technique (which Sebastian has already done) but keep an eye out for any that need adjusting. Even before he did this, I would occasionally find ptrs to the wrong section and would file a ticket to report, so we might be no worse off. K. On 4/19/13 3:50 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I have generated <listRef> stanzas for 62 elements which did not have such a thing already. Seems to have worked > nicely > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sun Apr 21 05:53:53 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 10:53:53 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <517176D2.40508@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <51716B73.6020803@uvic.ca> <517176D2.40508@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5173B731.7030804@kcl.ac.uk> On 19/04/2013 17:54, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > I meant the third of these. I have elaborated the sentence in the > document. As I understood our discussion, the decision to make > something "no longer recommended" does not entail that it will > definitely be removed in P6; therefore, we do not need to add this to > the P6-dev page. But they might, mightn't they? So perhaps we should say "should not automatically be added to the p6-dev wiki page, but may if we feel that it is a candidate for more proactive discussion at a post-P5 level" or similar? -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 21 08:55:26 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 13:55:26 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] encodingDesc/profileDesc and att.declarable Message-ID: <5173E1BE.1010500@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi Council, I was looking at bits of the teiHeader recently, in particular encodingDesc and profileDesc, and wondering about their repeatability. In our model of the teiHeader you have to have a fileDesc, then zero or more model.teiHeaderPart (encodingDesc and profileDesc) in any mixed up orders , then optionally one revisionDesc. This makes sense, of course, if we think about it because we only want one fileDesc and revisionDesc, and it is possible that we might need more than one encodingDesc and profileDesc, especially in a TEI file with multiple text elements. (And there is no good reason to restrict the order of encodingDesc and profileDesc elements.) My question is then: Why don't encodingDesc and profileDesc claim membership in att.declarable? This would give them the @default attribute to enable us to know which profileDesc or encodingDesc was the 'default'. Many of the children of these elements are declarable and so possibly the reason is that we're suppose to have only one of these elements and provide multiple of a particular child to choose from. If encodingDesc and profileDesc had this attribute it would enable the same mechanism on a greater level. The declarable elements are discussed here: http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CC.html#CCAS2 I can't shake the feeling that I'm missing something obvious as to why these elements even though repeatable are not declarable. We've probably discussed this before and I've just forgotten. I'll happily file a feature request if I'm wrong, but eagerly wait to have the obvious reasons that I've overlooked pointed out to me. Thanks, -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 21 09:18:25 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 14:18:25 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <5173B731.7030804@kcl.ac.uk> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <51716B73.6020803@uvic.ca> <517176D2.40508@ultraslavonic.info> <5173B731.7030804@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5173E721.6020400@it.ox.ac.uk> On 21/04/13 10:53, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > On 19/04/2013 17:54, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> I meant the third of these. I have elaborated the sentence in the >> document. As I understood our discussion, the decision to make >> something "no longer recommended" does not entail that it will >> definitely be removed in P6; therefore, we do not need to add this to >> the P6-dev page. > > But they might, mightn't they? So perhaps we should say "should not > automatically be added to the p6-dev wiki page, but may if we feel that > it is a candidate for more proactive discussion at a post-P5 level" or > similar? I'd agree with this -- appearance on this wiki page is just a mechanism for reminder for Council to reconsider these at a time of greater transition. Just to re-iterate that the p6-dev wiki page is just a list of things we've decided not to implement until post-P5. (It doesn't necessarily imply we'll do them at P6, just that we've decided that we won't do them as part of P5.) It is of course possible to re-examine these decisions at any point. A later elected Council may decide the earlier Council was completely wrong and doing X is worth breaking backwards compatibility, etc. As we've seen from reversing earlier decisions, these are not necessarily set in stone (or they are, but we have a hammer and chisel), we just shouldn't do so lightly. In development of a P6 *all* elements would and should be up for discussion of inclusion/removal/redefinition. Since one of the criteria for needing a P6 is "the emergence of new technologies (e.g. the transition from SGML to XML)" the entire way these elements function or relate to each other might be different. The other criterion for considering P6 is the "development of a new architecture that conveys substantial benefit (e.g., the development of the new class system)". I'm of the opinion that we currently have no proposals that really meet either of these criteria. (i.e. that everything we want to do can be done in P5 or has been deemed too disruptive in itself and is thus put off for reconsideration until we're doing other major disruptive transitions such as to P6 or later). -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sun Apr 21 09:26:24 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 14:26:24 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <CAA2irtJxcAGO1XwV5PUQmDsRZV=Xos85+BGDgd_m-4bvJ0H5FA@mail.gmail.com> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <51716B73.6020803@uvic.ca> <517176D2.40508@ultraslavonic.info> <5173B731.7030804@kcl.ac.uk> <CAA2irtJxcAGO1XwV5PUQmDsRZV=Xos85+BGDgd_m-4bvJ0H5FA@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5173E900.5040107@kcl.ac.uk> On 21/04/2013 12:54, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: > In order to help keep the distinction between "no longer recommended" > and "deprecated" clear, I would prefer keep the listing of a feature > for discussion of removal in P6 totally separate from the question of > making it "no longer recommended." I realize that's a bit of a > fiction: of course whatever is causing it to be no longer recommended > is probably also what makes it ripe for removal in P6. But since we > know how hard it is to tease out the details of deprecation, > disrecommendation, etc., I think there's value in having clear lines > in the policy. > > In other words, if the feature is a candidate for more proactive > discussion at a post P5 level, by all means, add it to the p6-dev wiki > page. But I'd rather this be a parallel activity than part of the "no > longer recommended" policy. > > Becky Yes, I think I agree with this. It may be safest not to mention this at all in the "no longer recommended" policy document (which is already a separate text from the "deprecation" discussion, right?) or if not, to make it clear that the inclusion of something on the p6-dev page is completely unrelated to either disrecommendation or deprecation, but is rather (as James has just said) something we have decided *not* to change at this point but think we may want to revisit when we're being all disruptive and non-backward-compatible anyway some day. -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Sun Apr 21 14:02:55 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 14:02:55 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] You can now validate Guidelines chapters and Specs easily In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22B2FC@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51716DF3.7040008@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22B2FC@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <CAA2irtJPTSch2FX06nEuPWGoaE9N9K5fgJ1Tk_aFW3p_S=pemA@mail.gmail.com> Woo hoo! This should mean many fewer broken builds due to stupid typos (guilty). Thank you! On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > On 19 Apr 2013, at 17:16, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote: > >> We have now ironed out those issues, and linked all the files in the >> repository to two schemas on Jenkins: >> >> http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/xml/tei/odd/p5odds.rnc >> >> http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/xml/tei/odd/p5odds.isosch > > > it will probably be a good idea to point at the files on the www.tei-c.org site when that catches up, > as the schema won't change that much. so regard this rather ugly URL as a relatively temporary stopgap. > > Syd will be glad to know that p5odds.odd does already have more checks than you might think, > but of course there is room for more. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Apr 21 17:32:26 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 17:32:26 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <5173E900.5040107@kcl.ac.uk> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <51716B73.6020803@uvic.ca> <517176D2.40508@ultraslavonic.info> <5173B731.7030804@kcl.ac.uk> <CAA2irtJxcAGO1XwV5PUQmDsRZV=Xos85+BGDgd_m-4bvJ0H5FA@mail.gmail.com> <5173E900.5040107@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51745AEA.9080408@ultraslavonic.info> To answer Gabby's question, when a practice is "no longer recommended" or "deprecated", these are two different things. However, in the future, if we decide we don't like a certain practice, we're going to need to decide whether to make something "no longer recommended" or to deprecate it, so it makes sense to have them documented together. I have removed mention of the P6-dev wiki page from the draft policy on "no longer recommended" and deprecated practices. I agree with the objections that various people have raised and was only trying to capture our discussion in Providence. (The discussion, as I recall it, went like this: in summarizing the "no longer recommended" option during our discussion in Providence, I said we should list the practice on P6-dev, but someone objected, perhaps because they thought that anything on P6-dev would definitely be implemented in P6.) However, James just pointed out that presence on P6-dev makes no such guarantee. K. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Apr 21 19:20:10 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 19:20:10 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Fwd: Re: Google Books > TEI In-Reply-To: <4FEBD9C0.4030201@ultraslavonic.info> References: <4FEBD9C0.4030201@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5174742A.8040503@ultraslavonic.info> As requested in Providence, I am forwarding the samples for anyone who is interested in reviewing the quality of these. Below are the IDs for each in case you want to compare against the equivalent page images in Google Books: dickens.tei -- i8_u_-YmG4MC gullivers_travels.tei -- srVbAAAAQAAJ -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Fwd: Re: Google Books > TEI Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2012 00:12:48 -0400 From: Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> To: tei-council at lists.village.virginia.edu All, Now that the latest release is behind us, I'd like to follow up on a few things I've promised for you but which wouldn't have contributed to getting through bug fixes and feature requests in time for the release. First of all, in Ann Arbor we agreed that we would ask Ranjith, our contact at Google, for the latest samples so we can calculate some statistics on accuracy and encourage Google towards making this format public. See the two attachments and the correspondence below. Our agenda is a bit vague on responsibility here. I've asked for samples, but I think others will want to check for accuracy of encoding. Kevin -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Google Books > TEI Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2012 15:30:38 -0700 From: Ranjith Unnikrishnan <ranjith at google.com> To: Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> CC: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk, mholmes at uvic.ca, laurent.romary at inria.fr Yes, the last round of feedback I got was around that time frame, and came both from your group as well as another working group that included some of our library partners. I had incorporated the two sets of feedback into some improvements to the algorithm, but they were mostly related to style and had nothing to do with producing new output tags or such. Comments that were not addressed required improvements to existing text structure analysis algorithms that were at least partly based on the quality of obtained OCR text. Both of these are active research topics that are always on our agenda but are not quick fixes. I've attached the latest Dicken's and Gulliver's Travels files, and can generate TEI files for others if you can send me links to their corresponding pages on Google Books. On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info <mailto:kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info>> wrote: The last round of reviews I have is a sample of Dickens from July 27, 2011. I have earlier versions of other titles, but they aren't worth consulting at this point since you've improved other things. Has the algorithm changed since then? It would be nice to have the latest version of not only Dickens but also of some other works in the public domain: perhaps an old bound volume of a journal and a non-fiction book? Thanks. On 4/23/2012 12:50 PM, Ranjith Unnikrishnan wrote: Hi Kevin, I have not made any changes to the TEI generation algorithm since our last round of reviews withing the group. I've since diverted my energy towards getting buy-in and making progress on making the TEI files available on the Books site. I've had some success but it's still early days. Until this is launched, I don't plan to work on increasing the TEI markup depth or anything else related to the process apart from fixing any bugs that may arise during large-scale testing. ~R On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info <mailto:kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> <mailto:kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info <mailto:kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info>>> wrote: Hi Ranjith, While we wait on your colleagues to integrate the code for generating TEI into your production pipeline (for which we hope our Google Docs brainstorming has helped you make that case), the TEI Technical Council is thinking about how we might publicize the availability of TEI documents in Google Books -- when that day comes -- and what it might mean for our community. The sort of message we would promote depends on the depth and consistency of the markup that Google is able to create. Would you be able to provide us with some of samples generated by the latest version of your code? (We saw early drafts, but I'm not sure that I have any of the final versions.) I'd like to share them with the Technical Council. Thanks, Kevin On 2/6/12 12:24 PM, Ranjith Unnikrishnan wrote: Hi Kevin, The code has been reviewed and checked in but we're still working on some questions related to integrating the code in our production pipeline. There's probably not much you can help with at this point, but I might need some input from you guys as we get closer to deploying. Sorry this is not moving as fast as I'd like; this effort is one of my independent "20%" projects, and those have a general tendency of getting pushed down the priority list in light of more urgent tasks. So don't hesitate to check up once in a while. ~Ranjith -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: dickens.tei Type: application/octet-stream Size: 284908 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20130421/bfa66a99/attachment-0002.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gullivers_travels.tei Type: application/octet-stream Size: 278754 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20130421/bfa66a99/attachment-0003.obj From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sun Apr 21 22:02:01 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2013 22:02:01 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] XInclude namespace in chapters In-Reply-To: <516E97AE.6060108@uvic.ca> References: <516E1AE8.4010908@uvic.ca> <20846.19927.673019.893507@emt.ad.brown.edu> <516E97AE.6060108@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20852.39449.269336.237173@emt.ad.brown.edu> My instinct is that a "hacky" method that uses an obvioius non-XInclude namespace is the way to go. That's what we do here at Brown, BTW. I like that better than either <eg> or CDATA. Oh. I just looked at p5odds.odd. Heh. Yup. I put that in there. (That's the same namespace we use at Brown.) > There is a cunning thing in p5odds.odd that allows you to fake up > XInclude in tei:x examples -- take a look -- but it's a bit hacky. > I think it would be best to use CDATA for this particular scenario. From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 22 10:57:09 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 15:57:09 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Minutes for TEI Council Face-to-Face Message-ID: <51754FC5.1050102@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi Council, I've converted the minutes from the Google Doc to TEI and placed a copy of them here: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm54.xml I've not yet added it to the index page of the meetings (though it does appear in the sidebar navigation). I will be pointing TEI-L to this tomorrow afternoon. So please get me any typos or corrections you wish to make before they go (more) public. Of course I'm sure you all corrected it in its GoogleDoc stage. I've also auto-generated a table of actions arising sorted by assignee at: http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_actions_2013-04 As Elli suggested I've put in a suggested deadline for these items. In many cases this is 2013-05-31... just over a month away. In some cases it is closer or further away. If you know you can't make the suggested date then change it to something more feasible. If you have already complete the action or part of it then update the wiki page. We'll review the action items briefly before the next teleconference (to be scheduled). Best, James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Apr 22 11:22:28 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 08:22:28 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] list/@type example Message-ID: <517555B4.7030601@uvic.ca> Hi all, I'm doing the conversion of list/@type to @rend, and came across this rather odd example from the CO chapter (full quote below): <list rend="runon" type="ordered"> <label>(1)</label> <item>My first rough manuscript, without any intermediate copy, has been sent to the press.</item> <label>(2)</label> <item>Not a sheet has been seen by any human eyes, excepting those of the author and the printer: the faults and the merits are exclusively my own.</item> </list></egXML> (There are two of these.) I contend that @type="ordered" is pointless here, because the numbering is supplied in any case by the <label>, so I propose to remove it. All who disagree please say nay loudly and soon; silence = assent. Full quote: <p>Each distinct item in the list should be encoded as a distinct <gi>item</gi> element. If the numbering or other identification for the items in a list is unremarkable and may be reconstructed by any processing program, no enumerator need be specified. If however an enumerator is retained in the encoded text, it may be supplied either by using the <att>n</att> attribute on the <gi>item</gi> element, or by using a <gi>label</gi> element. The following examples are thus equivalent: <egXML xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples" source="#GibAut">I will add two facts, which have seldom occurred in the composition of six, or even five quartos. <list rend="runon" type="ordered"> <label>(1)</label> <item>My first rough manuscript, without any intermediate copy, has been sent to the press.</item> <label>(2)</label> <item>Not a sheet has been seen by any human eyes, excepting those of the author and the printer: the faults and the merits are exclusively my own.</item> </list></egXML> <egXML xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples" source="#GibAut">I will add two facts, which have seldom occurred in the composition of six, or even five quartos. <list rend="runon" type="ordered"> <item n="1">My first rough manuscript, without any intermediate copy, has been sent to the press.</item> <item n="2">Not a sheet has been seen by any human eyes, excepting those of the author and the printer: the faults and the merits are exclusively my own.</item> </list></egXML> Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Apr 22 11:38:43 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 08:38:43 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Minutes for TEI Council Face-to-Face In-Reply-To: <51754FC5.1050102@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51754FC5.1050102@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51755983.4000003@uvic.ca> One thing on the minutes seems incomplete: [quote] Following a discussion on lists and @type values - Action MH: add proper description to ticket, make a clear proposal about <list> @type. with respect to suggested values. [/quote] This relates to bug 460 (<https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/460/>), although that's not in the minutes, and the action isn't in the action list for some reason. I added this comment to the ticket: "Providence meeting: action on MH to spell out the steps of the proposal to change from @type to @rend in our recommendations and our guidelines practice, and to build in support for this in the stylesheets. On Council's approval, go ahead. Changed from Red to Amber. No objections raised at Council meeting." and I've been acting on that since (changing @type to @rend for values of "ordered" and "simple"), and Sebastian has already added support for this into the Stylesheets. My memory of the discussion is that we simply wanted to separate out values of @type which were legitimate ("gloss", "encoders", "speakers", "index", "attendance") from those which were clearly renditional ("simple", "bulleted", "bullets", "ordered"), and change the latter in our usage, our examples, and our explanations, to use @rend. Does that fit with everyone else's memory of the discussion, or do I have it wrong? Cheers, Martin On 13-04-22 07:57 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > Hi Council, > > I've converted the minutes from the Google Doc to TEI and placed > a copy of them here: > > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm54.xml > > I've not yet added it to the index page of the meetings (though > it does appear in the sidebar navigation). I will be pointing > TEI-L to this tomorrow afternoon. So please get me any typos or > corrections you wish to make before they go (more) public. Of > course I'm sure you all corrected it in its GoogleDoc stage. > > I've also auto-generated a table of actions arising sorted by > assignee at: > > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_actions_2013-04 > > As Elli suggested I've put in a suggested deadline for these > items. In many cases this is 2013-05-31... just over a month > away. In some cases it is closer or further away. If you know > you can't make the suggested date then change it to something > more feasible. If you have already complete the action or part > of it then update the wiki page. > > We'll review the action items briefly before the next > teleconference (to be scheduled). > > Best, > > James > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Mon Apr 22 12:22:09 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:22:09 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] list/@type example In-Reply-To: <517555B4.7030601@uvic.ca> References: <517555B4.7030601@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <517563B1.2040308@ultraslavonic.info> Well, a computer doesn't necessarily know that the labels "(1)" and "(2)" indicate order. In order to classify lists with various labeling systems, such as "(1)", "1)", "a.", "i.", and many others, as all being ordered, you might want to use @type. --K. On 4/22/2013 11:22 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm doing the conversion of list/@type to @rend, and came across this > rather odd example from the CO chapter (full quote below): > > <list rend="runon" type="ordered"> > <label>(1)</label> > <item>My first rough manuscript, without any > intermediate copy, has been sent to the press.</item> > <label>(2)</label> > <item>Not a sheet has been seen by any human > eyes, excepting those of the author and the printer: > the faults and the merits are exclusively my own.</item> > </list></egXML> > > (There are two of these.) > > I contend that @type="ordered" is pointless here, because the numbering > is supplied in any case by the<label>, so I propose to remove it. All > who disagree please say nay loudly and soon; silence = assent. > > Full quote: > > <p>Each distinct item in the list should be encoded as a distinct > <gi>item</gi> element. If the numbering or other identification for the > items in a list is unremarkable and may be reconstructed by any > processing program, no enumerator need be specified. If however an > enumerator is retained in the encoded text, it may be supplied either by > using the<att>n</att> attribute on the<gi>item</gi> element, or by > using a<gi>label</gi> element. The following examples are thus > equivalent: > <egXML xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples" source="#GibAut">I will > add two facts, which have seldom occurred in > the composition of six, or even five quartos. > <list rend="runon" type="ordered"> > <label>(1)</label> > <item>My first rough manuscript, without any > intermediate copy, has been sent to the press.</item> > <label>(2)</label> > <item>Not a sheet has been seen by any human > eyes, excepting those of the author and the printer: > the faults and the merits are exclusively my own.</item> > </list></egXML> > <egXML xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples" source="#GibAut">I will > add two facts, which have seldom occurred in > the composition of six, or even five quartos. > <list rend="runon" type="ordered"> > <item n="1">My first rough manuscript, without any > intermediate copy, has been sent to the press.</item> > <item n="2">Not a sheet has been seen by any human > eyes, excepting those of the author and the printer: > the faults and the merits are exclusively my own.</item> > </list></egXML> > > Cheers, > Martin From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Mon Apr 22 12:27:21 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:27:21 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] list/@type example In-Reply-To: <517563B1.2040308@ultraslavonic.info> References: <517555B4.7030601@uvic.ca> <517563B1.2040308@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <517564E9.4060101@ultraslavonic.info> Now that I see Martin's message supplying some content missing from the minutes (which I looked for but ended up thinking I had dreamed up the entire discussion!), my previous reply should have said to use rend="ordered" instead of type="ordered". But then I'm not sure what to do with the rend="runon" that is already in the example. On 4/22/2013 12:22 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Well, a computer doesn't necessarily know that the labels "(1)" and > "(2)" indicate order. In order to classify lists with various labeling > systems, such as "(1)", "1)", "a.", "i.", and many others, as all being > ordered, you might want to use @type. > > --K. > > On 4/22/2013 11:22 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I'm doing the conversion of list/@type to @rend, and came across this >> rather odd example from the CO chapter (full quote below): >> >> <list rend="runon" type="ordered"> >> <label>(1)</label> >> <item>My first rough manuscript, without any >> intermediate copy, has been sent to the press.</item> >> <label>(2)</label> >> <item>Not a sheet has been seen by any human >> eyes, excepting those of the author and the printer: >> the faults and the merits are exclusively my own.</item> >> </list></egXML> >> >> (There are two of these.) >> >> I contend that @type="ordered" is pointless here, because the numbering >> is supplied in any case by the<label>, so I propose to remove it. All >> who disagree please say nay loudly and soon; silence = assent. >> >> Full quote: >> >> <p>Each distinct item in the list should be encoded as a distinct >> <gi>item</gi> element. If the numbering or other identification for the >> items in a list is unremarkable and may be reconstructed by any >> processing program, no enumerator need be specified. If however an >> enumerator is retained in the encoded text, it may be supplied either by >> using the<att>n</att> attribute on the<gi>item</gi> element, or by >> using a<gi>label</gi> element. The following examples are thus >> equivalent: >> <egXML xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples" source="#GibAut">I will >> add two facts, which have seldom occurred in >> the composition of six, or even five quartos. >> <list rend="runon" type="ordered"> >> <label>(1)</label> >> <item>My first rough manuscript, without any >> intermediate copy, has been sent to the press.</item> >> <label>(2)</label> >> <item>Not a sheet has been seen by any human >> eyes, excepting those of the author and the printer: >> the faults and the merits are exclusively my own.</item> >> </list></egXML> >> <egXML xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples" source="#GibAut">I will >> add two facts, which have seldom occurred in >> the composition of six, or even five quartos. >> <list rend="runon" type="ordered"> >> <item n="1">My first rough manuscript, without any >> intermediate copy, has been sent to the press.</item> >> <item n="2">Not a sheet has been seen by any human >> eyes, excepting those of the author and the printer: >> the faults and the merits are exclusively my own.</item> >> </list></egXML> >> >> Cheers, >> Martin From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Apr 22 12:27:51 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:27:51 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] list/@type example In-Reply-To: <517563B1.2040308@ultraslavonic.info> References: <517555B4.7030601@uvic.ca> <517563B1.2040308@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51756507.7080700@uvic.ca> On 13-04-22 09:22 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Well, a computer doesn't necessarily know that the labels "(1)" and > "(2)" indicate order. In order to classify lists with various labeling > systems, such as "(1)", "1)", "a.", "i.", and many others, as all being > ordered, you might want to use @type. This was the heart of our discussion, surely: we decided (and we've already partially implemented) a change from @type to @rend for this sort of thing. Types of list are things like "ingredients"; ordering, numbering, bulleting and all that sort of thing is rendition, so it uses @rend. So if we keep "ordered" here, it should become another token in @rend: <list rend="runon ordered"> Cheers, Martin > > --K. > > On 4/22/2013 11:22 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I'm doing the conversion of list/@type to @rend, and came across this >> rather odd example from the CO chapter (full quote below): >> >> <list rend="runon" type="ordered"> >> <label>(1)</label> >> <item>My first rough manuscript, without any >> intermediate copy, has been sent to the press.</item> >> <label>(2)</label> >> <item>Not a sheet has been seen by any human >> eyes, excepting those of the author and the printer: >> the faults and the merits are exclusively my own.</item> >> </list></egXML> >> >> (There are two of these.) >> >> I contend that @type="ordered" is pointless here, because the numbering >> is supplied in any case by the<label>, so I propose to remove it. All >> who disagree please say nay loudly and soon; silence = assent. >> >> Full quote: >> >> <p>Each distinct item in the list should be encoded as a distinct >> <gi>item</gi> element. If the numbering or other identification for the >> items in a list is unremarkable and may be reconstructed by any >> processing program, no enumerator need be specified. If however an >> enumerator is retained in the encoded text, it may be supplied either by >> using the<att>n</att> attribute on the<gi>item</gi> element, or by >> using a<gi>label</gi> element. The following examples are thus >> equivalent: >> <egXML xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples" source="#GibAut">I will >> add two facts, which have seldom occurred in >> the composition of six, or even five quartos. >> <list rend="runon" type="ordered"> >> <label>(1)</label> >> <item>My first rough manuscript, without any >> intermediate copy, has been sent to the press.</item> >> <label>(2)</label> >> <item>Not a sheet has been seen by any human >> eyes, excepting those of the author and the printer: >> the faults and the merits are exclusively my own.</item> >> </list></egXML> >> <egXML xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples" source="#GibAut">I will >> add two facts, which have seldom occurred in >> the composition of six, or even five quartos. >> <list rend="runon" type="ordered"> >> <item n="1">My first rough manuscript, without any >> intermediate copy, has been sent to the press.</item> >> <item n="2">Not a sheet has been seen by any human >> eyes, excepting those of the author and the printer: >> the faults and the merits are exclusively my own.</item> >> </list></egXML> >> >> Cheers, >> Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Mon Apr 22 12:28:56 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:28:56 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] list/@type example In-Reply-To: <51756507.7080700@uvic.ca> References: <517555B4.7030601@uvic.ca> <517563B1.2040308@ultraslavonic.info> <51756507.7080700@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51756548.1010407@ultraslavonic.info> That sounds like the way to go. On 4/22/2013 12:27 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > So if we keep "ordered" here, it should become another token in @rend: > > <list rend="runon ordered"> From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 22 12:45:48 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 16:45:48 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] ODD papers Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A23BB8B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> There is an action on me to "Circulate ODD-related development papers to Council for comment", to which I respond with http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Talks/2013-06-london/abstract.xml.pdf This paper will be presented at XML London in June. Lou and I also have a paper submitted to ACM Doc Eng for September, which is more general about ODD. Will report back if that is accepted. See http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Talks/2013-09-acmdoceng/rahtzburnard.pdf I spent the weekend working on implementation of the new schema language, which is slowly getting somewhere. ie I can rewrite P5 to use the new-style models, generate an RNG schema from it, and validate a test file. Next stage is to do that for DTDs, then start doing some examples of extended functionality -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 22 13:23:38 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 18:23:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Minutes for TEI Council Face-to-Face In-Reply-To: <51755983.4000003@uvic.ca> References: <51754FC5.1050102@it.ox.ac.uk> <51755983.4000003@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5175721A.5050803@it.ox.ac.uk> On 22/04/13 16:38, Martin Holmes wrote: > My memory of the discussion is that we simply wanted to separate out > values of @type which were legitimate ("gloss", "encoders", "speakers", > "index", "attendance") from those which were clearly renditional > ("simple", "bulleted", "bullets", "ordered"), and change the latter in > our usage, our examples, and our explanations, to use @rend. > > Does that fit with everyone else's memory of the discussion, or do I > have it wrong? That is my memory of it. (Feel free to note that in the minutes on the website if others agree.) -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Apr 23 14:39:05 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2013 11:39:05 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] list/@type: proposals for your consideration Message-ID: <5176D549.8060804@uvic.ca> Hi all, One of my tasks from Providence was to come up with recommendations for how we should rework the definitions of list/@type and list/@rend in order to remove renditional values from the @type attribute, where they don't belong. I've now done that: <https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/460/?page=2> Comments are welcome on the ticket. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 24 11:38:18 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 08:38:18 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle Message-ID: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> Hi there, I'm working on this bug: <https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/512/> which requires me to generate via XSLT a little table of statistics about macros. I've got the XSLT working fine, and I had imagined this situation: 1. The ST chapter has an XInclude pointing to a little fragment file containing the stats. 2. When the Guidelines are built, that fragment file is created by XSLT based run against p5.xml or p5subset.xml. However, there's a slight dilemma: - If the fragment file does not exist in the svn repo, then the ST chapter will be invalid because it will be XIncluding something that does not exist. - If the fragment file is in svn, then the build process will replace it with a newer version; then, since Jenkins does not commit that new version back to the repo, the next svn update Jenkins does will error out on a conflict, because a newer version of the file exists locally. Any ideas on how to solve this? One possibility is that the build process simply deletes that file at the end, so that the next svn update will replace it with the old version. However, that would mean that Jenkins would experience changes with every svn update it does (every five minutes), and that would trigger a build cycle continuously. Another option is to copy the original svn version of the file somewhere temporarily, replace it during the build process, then copy it over the newly-generated version again at the end. That would probably fool svn. But maybe there's a simpler solution? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 24 11:44:08 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 15:44:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle In-Reply-To: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> References: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> i wouldn't use XInclude for this, seems like overkill. I would put in a PI <?stats listofelements?> and implement that PI in the XSL, then your problem wouldn't arise. I might put this in the script which makes p5subset.xml, or i might junk the xmllint --xinclude stage in favour of an include implementation in XSLT which includes the PI processing and is a placeholder for any other useful work of the kind. sorry for being nerdy -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 24 12:04:05 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 09:04:05 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51780275.4060405@uvic.ca> On 13-04-24 08:44 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > i wouldn't use XInclude for this, seems like overkill. I would put in a PI > > <?stats listofelements?> > > and implement that PI in the XSL, then your problem wouldn't arise. > > I might put this in the script which makes p5subset.xml, > or i might junk the xmllint --xinclude stage in favour > of an include implementation in XSLT which includes the PI processing > and is a placeholder for any other useful work of the kind. > > sorry for being nerdy Not quite sure I understand this. Are you suggesting that the PI be matched by a template in the XSLT for the Guidelines build, and the template be integrated into the existing stylesheets? Cheers, Martin > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 24 12:09:29 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 16:09:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle In-Reply-To: <51780275.4060405@uvic.ca> References: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780275.4060405@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248B1C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 24 Apr 2013, at 17:04, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > > Not quite sure I understand this. Are you suggesting that the PI be matched by a template in the XSLT for the Guidelines build, and the template be integrated into the existing stylesheets? yes. but to avoid duplication, I suggest we replace the line in the Makefile xmllint --xinclude --noxincludenode --dropdtd --noent ${DRIVER} > p5.xml (which makes a single P5 file used by all subsequent transformations) with a call to an XSLT transform which does the above, but also implements the PIs. Then we have a single file, with up to date states, for use by the TEI->XXX transforms. how hard is xinclude, after all, in the simple way we use it: <xsl:template math="xi:include"> <xsl:copy-of select="doc(@href)/*/> </xsl:template> -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 24 12:38:05 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 09:38:05 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248B1C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780275.4060405@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248B1C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51780A6D.6070906@uvic.ca> On 13-04-24 09:09 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 24 Apr 2013, at 17:04, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote: >> >> Not quite sure I understand this. Are you suggesting that the PI be matched by a template in the XSLT for the Guidelines build, and the template be integrated into the existing stylesheets? > > > yes. but to avoid duplication, I suggest we replace the line in the Makefile > > xmllint --xinclude --noxincludenode --dropdtd --noent ${DRIVER} > p5.xml > > (which makes a single P5 file used by all subsequent transformations) with > a call to an XSLT transform which does the above, but also implements the PIs. > Then we have a single file, with up to date states, for use by the TEI->XXX transforms. > > > how hard is xinclude, after all, in the simple way we use it: > > <xsl:template math="xi:include"> > <xsl:copy-of select="doc(@href)/*/> > </xsl:template> This is intriguing, because it would mean we could also start using TEI Pointers if we wanted to. But where on earth is the right place to put the template for the processing instruction? My heart sinks when I venture into the stylesheet folders... Cheers, Martin > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > . > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 24 12:45:19 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 16:45:19 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle In-Reply-To: <51780A6D.6070906@uvic.ca> References: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780275.4060405@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248B1C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780A6D.6070906@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248FCE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 24 Apr 2013, at 17:38, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > > This is intriguing, because it would mean we could also start using TEI Pointers if we wanted to. > go for it?.. > But where on earth is the right place to put the template for the processing instruction? My heart sinks when I venture into the stylesheet folders... nah, this would be ad hoc transform in Utilities, like p5subset.xsl. the later stylesheets would just see vanilla TEI. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 24 13:38:09 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 18:38:09 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248FCE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780275.4060405@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248B1C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780A6D.6070906@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248FCE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51781881.9060708@it.ox.ac.uk> On 24/04/13 17:45, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 24 Apr 2013, at 17:38, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote: >> This is intriguing, because it would mean we could also >> start using TEI Pointers if we wanted to. > go for it?.. If we wanted to... depends if we really need to. I think it would be beneficial to add other simple statistics. I don't know maybe a short paragraph to the start of http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/REF-ELEMENTS.html mentioning the number of elements? I'm sure there are lots of pedagogically useful ways we could use such processing instructions. >> But where on earth is the right place to put the template >> for the processing instruction? My heart sinks when I >> venture into the stylesheet folders... > nah, this would be ad hoc transform in Utilities, like > p5subset.xsl. the later stylesheets would just see vanilla > TEI. Surely this is the problem we need to solve in helping to make the Stylesheets more accessible to a larger community of developers. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 24 13:44:26 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 17:44:26 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle In-Reply-To: <51781881.9060708@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780275.4060405@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248B1C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780A6D.6070906@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248FCE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51781881.9060708@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <9412b046-c5c4-4dce-b4ba-824a9ac6c575@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 24 Apr 2013, at 18:38, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: >>> But where on earth is the right place to put the template >>> for the processing instruction? My heart sinks when I >>> venture into the stylesheet folders... >> nah, this would be ad hoc transform in Utilities, like >> p5subset.xsl. the later stylesheets would just see vanilla >> TEI. > > Surely this is the problem we need to solve in helping to make > the Stylesheets more accessible to a larger community of developers. sorry, but this a complete red herring. I am suggesting that we add a stage in the Guidelines build process with an almost-identity tranform which expands stats PIs, and XIncludes. this has nothing to do with the general stylesheets and how to persuade people that it is not that hard to hack them. When people ask me why I don't document the XSL, I wonder whether anyone actually _reads_ http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-xsl-common/ -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 24 16:02:36 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 13:02:36 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle In-Reply-To: <9412b046-c5c4-4dce-b4ba-824a9ac6c575@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780275.4060405@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248B1C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780A6D.6070906@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248FCE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51781881.9060708@it.ox.ac.uk> <9412b046-c5c4-4dce-b4ba-824a9ac6c575@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51783A5C.9070000@uvic.ca> > When people ask me why I don't document the XSL, > I wonder whether anyone actually _reads_ http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-xsl-common/ I have seen that, but it's hard to figure out how it applies to the Guidelines. They have their own guidelines.xsl.model; that gets renamed to guidelines.xsl and changed a bit before use, such that instead of importing http://www.tei-c.org/release/xml/tei/stylesheet/odds2/odd2html.xsl it imports the local copy in your TEI install -- or possibly the version from the repo if you supplied that as a parameter. That then imports a stack of other stuff. I find it impossible to remember where things happen, so I have to figure it out anew every time. This is not a criticism at all -- it's just an acknowledgement that this stuff is really hard to figure out, and it has often defeated me in the past. With regard to the suggestion for a pre-processing step: xmllint is wicked fast at doing XIncludes, and I bet there would be a noticeable time penalty if we were to do them with XSLT, but if we could achieve a lot of other work at the same time it might be worth it. We should definitely test whether it would be quicker to do the near-identity transform just to process the PIs, then use xmllint on the result to expand the XIncludes. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-24 10:44 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 24 Apr 2013, at 18:38, James Cummings <James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: >>>> But where on earth is the right place to put the template >>>> for the processing instruction? My heart sinks when I >>>> venture into the stylesheet folders... >>> nah, this would be ad hoc transform in Utilities, like >>> p5subset.xsl. the later stylesheets would just see vanilla >>> TEI. >> >> Surely this is the problem we need to solve in helping to make >> the Stylesheets more accessible to a larger community of developers. > > > > sorry, but this a complete red herring. I am suggesting that we add a stage > in the Guidelines build process with an almost-identity tranform which > expands stats PIs, and XIncludes. > > this has nothing to do with the general stylesheets and how to persuade > people that it is not that hard to hack them. > > When people ask me why I don't document the XSL, > I wonder whether anyone actually _reads_ http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-xsl-common/ > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 24 18:16:38 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 22:16:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle In-Reply-To: <51783A5C.9070000@uvic.ca> References: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780275.4060405@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248B1C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780A6D.6070906@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248FCE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51781881.9060708@it.ox.ac.uk> <9412b046-c5c4-4dce-b4ba-824a9ac6c575@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51783A5C.9070000@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A24B43B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 24 Apr 2013, at 21:02, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > I have seen that, but it's hard to figure out how it applies to the > Guidelines. They have their own guidelines.xsl.model; that gets renamed > to guidelines.xsl and changed a bit before use, such that instead of > importing > http://www.tei-c.org/release/xml/tei/stylesheet/odds2/odd2html.xsl it > imports the local copy in your TEI install -- or possibly the version > from the repo if you supplied that as a parameter yeah, thats a bit devious, I agree. I could recast that as a profile called "teiguidelines" which might be sensible. I will try and get to that. > > With regard to the suggestion for a pre-processing step: xmllint is > wicked fast at doing XIncludes, and I bet there would be a noticeable > time penalty if we were to do them with XSLT a bit. it takes 3 seconds starting from cold, but thats loading a JVM. If it was just another job in the Ant script, probably only adds a few seconds or two > , but if we could achieve a > lot of other work at the same time it might be worth it. I have done it anyway, as easy to do as to discuss. the change took the build time from 2min 29sec to 2 min39 sec, so seems safe. that should let you implement whatever you like in Utilities/expand.xsl see antbuilder.xml for the sequence of events. this pleases me, cos it takes more and more magic out of the Unix-specific Makefile into the ant scripts which are easier to understand, I hope. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 24 18:52:23 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 15:52:23 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A24B43B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780275.4060405@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248B1C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780A6D.6070906@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248FCE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51781881.9060708@it.ox.ac.uk> <9412b046-c5c4-4dce-b4ba-824a9ac6c575@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51783A5C.9070000@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A24B43B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51786227.7050101@uvic.ca> That's great -- I'll move my XSLT thing into the expand.xsl when I get a chance, and elaborate it a bit so we can create all sorts of calculated stuff for various places in the Guidelines. This means processing instructions scattered through the source files of the Guidelines. Where should these be documented, do you think? Cheers, Martin On 13-04-24 03:16 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 24 Apr 2013, at 21:02, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote: > >> I have seen that, but it's hard to figure out how it applies to the >> Guidelines. They have their own guidelines.xsl.model; that gets renamed >> to guidelines.xsl and changed a bit before use, such that instead of >> importing >> http://www.tei-c.org/release/xml/tei/stylesheet/odds2/odd2html.xsl it >> imports the local copy in your TEI install -- or possibly the version >> from the repo if you supplied that as a parameter > > yeah, thats a bit devious, I agree. I could recast that as a profile > called "teiguidelines" which might be sensible. I will try and get to that. > >> >> With regard to the suggestion for a pre-processing step: xmllint is >> wicked fast at doing XIncludes, and I bet there would be a noticeable >> time penalty if we were to do them with XSLT > a bit. it takes 3 seconds starting from cold, but thats loading a JVM. > If it was just another job in the Ant script, probably only adds a few seconds or two > >> , but if we could achieve a >> lot of other work at the same time it might be worth it. > > I have done it anyway, as easy to do as to discuss. > the change took the build time from 2min 29sec to 2 min39 sec, > so seems safe. that should let you implement whatever you like > in Utilities/expand.xsl > > see antbuilder.xml for the sequence of events. this pleases me, > cos it takes more and more magic out of the Unix-specific Makefile > into the ant scripts which are easier to understand, I hope. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > . > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Apr 24 20:34:17 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2013 17:34:17 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A24B43B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780275.4060405@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248B1C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780A6D.6070906@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248FCE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51781881.9060708@it.ox.ac.uk> <9412b046-c5c4-4dce-b4ba-824a9ac6c575@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51783A5C.9070000@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A24B43B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51787A09.3070006@uvic.ca> I think there may be a little flaw in yore cunning plan. The stuff that I'm doing involves counting (for instance) the <elementSpec>s to find out how many elements there are. However, if I do this at the same time as expand.xsl is doing the XIncludes, I won't find any <elementSpec>s, because they don't get included until after the XIncludes get processed. So we're going to have to have two distinct steps: 1. Xinclude to build p5.xml or p5subset.xml (what's the difference?) 2. XSLT to expand the PIs and fill in the missing content. So we might as well use xmllint for the XIncludes and save ten seconds, no? Or am I missing something? Cheers, Martin On 13-04-24 03:16 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 24 Apr 2013, at 21:02, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> > wrote: > >> I have seen that, but it's hard to figure out how it applies to the >> Guidelines. They have their own guidelines.xsl.model; that gets renamed >> to guidelines.xsl and changed a bit before use, such that instead of >> importing >> http://www.tei-c.org/release/xml/tei/stylesheet/odds2/odd2html.xsl it >> imports the local copy in your TEI install -- or possibly the version >> from the repo if you supplied that as a parameter > > yeah, thats a bit devious, I agree. I could recast that as a profile > called "teiguidelines" which might be sensible. I will try and get to that. > >> >> With regard to the suggestion for a pre-processing step: xmllint is >> wicked fast at doing XIncludes, and I bet there would be a noticeable >> time penalty if we were to do them with XSLT > a bit. it takes 3 seconds starting from cold, but thats loading a JVM. > If it was just another job in the Ant script, probably only adds a few seconds or two > >> , but if we could achieve a >> lot of other work at the same time it might be worth it. > > I have done it anyway, as easy to do as to discuss. > the change took the build time from 2min 29sec to 2 min39 sec, > so seems safe. that should let you implement whatever you like > in Utilities/expand.xsl > > see antbuilder.xml for the sequence of events. this pleases me, > cos it takes more and more magic out of the Unix-specific Makefile > into the ant scripts which are easier to understand, I hope. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Apr 25 03:20:33 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 08:20:33 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] stamps Message-ID: <5178D941.8060302@retired.ox.ac.uk> Could someone take a look at https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/450/ I have a project which needs the fix proposed here -- anyone object to me just applying it? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Apr 25 04:03:50 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 08:03:50 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle In-Reply-To: <51786227.7050101@uvic.ca> References: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780275.4060405@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248B1C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780A6D.6070906@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248FCE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51781881.9060708@it.ox.ac.uk> <9412b046-c5c4-4dce-b4ba-824a9ac6c575@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51783A5C.9070000@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A24B43B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51786227.7050101@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A24BEDE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 24 Apr 2013, at 23:52, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > This means processing instructions scattered through the source files of the Guidelines. Where should these be documented, do you think? in the style guide, I suppose? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Apr 25 04:06:03 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 08:06:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Today's little puzzle In-Reply-To: <51787A09.3070006@uvic.ca> References: <5177FC6A.1010904@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248831@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780275.4060405@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248B1C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51780A6D.6070906@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A248FCE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51781881.9060708@it.ox.ac.uk> <9412b046-c5c4-4dce-b4ba-824a9ac6c575@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51783A5C.9070000@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A24B43B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51787A09.3070006@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A24C011@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 25 Apr 2013, at 01:34, Martin Holmes <mholmes at uvic.ca> wrote: > I think there may be a little flaw in yore cunning plan. > > The stuff that I'm doing involves counting (for instance) the <elementSpec>s to find out how many elements there are. However, if I do this at the same time as expand.xsl is doing the XIncludes, I won't find any <elementSpec>s, because they don't get included until after the XIncludes get processed. no problemo. i have redone the expand.xsl to have 2 passes. it does the xinclude on pass 1, then you can do the PIs on pass 2. adds a few more seconds, but not noticeable -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Apr 25 08:25:11 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 05:25:11 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] stamps In-Reply-To: <5178D941.8060302@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5178D941.8060302@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <517920A7.5080906@uvic.ca> Makes sense to me, as long as we don't invalidate anything currently allowed which might have been used. In your new content model, what will be excluded which was allowed before? Cheers Martin On 13-04-25 12:20 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > Could someone take a look at > > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/450/ > > I have a project which needs the fix proposed here -- anyone object to > me just applying it? > > > From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Apr 25 09:19:22 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 09:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Family History Information Standards Organisation (FHISO) (fwd) Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304250916050.68323@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Council, Can someone from Council respond to this request for input? As it involves data standards I think it is Council rather than Board business so long as it does not involve a major commitment of TEI-C resources, Thanks, David ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 13:52:52 +0100 From: Tony Proctor <acproctor at fhiso.org> To: info at tei-c.org Cc: Tony Proctor <tony at proctor.net> Subject: Family History Information Standards Organisation (FHISO) As a representative of FHISO, I contacted TEI earlier this year with a view to getting a dialogue going between our two organisations. I didn't receive any response but I'd like to explain our position a little more clearly if that's OK. FHISO is a non-profit organisation dealing with data standards for genealogy and family history. Part of this involves mark-up for entities (e.g. Persons, Places, etc) referenced in narrative text, and for the representation of transcription anomalies (e.g. uncertain characters, struck-out text, marginalia, interlinear & intralinear notes). We've been looking at TEI's comprehensive set of features but cannot see how it can be incorporated into textual contributions within a structured genealogical schema. FHISO currently has an open call-for-papers at http://fhiso.org/call-for-papers/ which is designed to solicit technical proposals and functional requirements for specific data standards. A number have already been uploaded at http://fhiso.org/call-for-papers-submissions/ with more waiting to appear. TEI is welcome to submit proposals here themselves, or comment on existing proposals, but I would also like to establish a conversation with a TEI representative too. I feel that both of our organisations could benefit from a sharing of ideas and goals. Could you put me in touch with an appropriate TEI representative? Tony Proctor Organising Member Family History Information Standards Organisation (FHISO) Web: http://fhiso.org Tel: +44 115 714 0766 f h i s o ? One community, one standard! From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Thu Apr 25 10:03:37 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 10:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] stamps In-Reply-To: <517920A7.5080906@uvic.ca> References: <5178D941.8060302@retired.ox.ac.uk> <517920A7.5080906@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304250959250.13348@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> I have to admit that this is the first time I've even looked at <stamp>. Which I suppose means that I have no vested interest. It could almost be regarded as a specialized form of <figure> in that a stamp (used in a transcriptional context) could theoretically contain almost anything, and could be used almost anywhere from a <note> to (perhaps most commonly) a stamped signature. Still, it's hard to justify a lot of the current content model ({kinesic}? ), and if there's a ready fix that allows the reasonable contents, including {desc}, I can't quickly think of any objections. pfs On Thu, 25 Apr 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: > Makes sense to me, as long as we don't invalidate anything currently > allowed which might have been used. In your new content model, what will > be excluded which was allowed before? > > Cheers > Martin > > On 13-04-25 12:20 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> Could someone take a look at >> >> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/450/ >> >> I have a project which needs the fix proposed here -- anyone object to >> me just applying it? >> >> >> > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Apr 25 11:26:53 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 08:26:53 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Family History Information Standards Organisation (FHISO) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304250916050.68323@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304250916050.68323@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <51794B3D.3080504@uvic.ca> I'll volunteer to correspond a little bit and clarify exactly what they're trying to do. A quick look through their proposals (such as this one: <http://fhiso.org/files/cfp/cfps14.pdf>) suggests they're reinventing a lot of our wheels. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-25 06:19 AM, David Sewell wrote: > Council, > > Can someone from Council respond to this request for input? As it > involves data standards I think it is Council rather than Board business > so long as it does not involve a major commitment of TEI-C resources, > > Thanks, > > David > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 13:52:52 +0100 > From: Tony Proctor <acproctor at fhiso.org> > To: info at tei-c.org > Cc: Tony Proctor <tony at proctor.net> > Subject: Family History Information Standards Organisation (FHISO) > > As a representative of FHISO, I contacted TEI earlier this year with a > view to getting a dialogue going between our two organisations. I didn't > receive any response but I'd like to explain our position a little more > clearly if that's OK. > > FHISO is a non-profit organisation dealing with data standards for > genealogy and family history. Part of this involves mark-up for entities > (e.g. Persons, Places, etc) referenced in narrative text, and for the > representation of transcription anomalies (e.g. uncertain characters, > struck-out text, marginalia, interlinear & intralinear notes). > > We've been looking at TEI's comprehensive set of features but cannot see > how it can be incorporated into textual contributions within a > structured genealogical schema. > > FHISO currently has an open call-for-papers at > http://fhiso.org/call-for-papers/ which is designed to solicit technical > proposals and functional requirements for specific data standards. A > number have already been uploaded at > http://fhiso.org/call-for-papers-submissions/ with more waiting to > appear. TEI is welcome to submit proposals here themselves, or comment > on existing proposals, but I would also like to establish a conversation > with a TEI representative too. I feel that both of our organisations > could benefit from a sharing of ideas and goals. > > Could you put me in touch with an appropriate TEI representative? > > Tony Proctor > Organising Member > > Family History Information Standards Organisation (FHISO) > Web: http://fhiso.org > Tel: +44 115 714 0766 > f h i s o ? > One community, one standard! > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Apr 25 11:27:47 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 11:27:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Family History Information Standards Organisation (FHISO) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <51794B3D.3080504@uvic.ca> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304250916050.68323@lister.ei.virginia.edu> <51794B3D.3080504@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304251127360.69509@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Great, thanks. On Thu, 25 Apr 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: > I'll volunteer to correspond a little bit and clarify exactly what > they're trying to do. A quick look through their proposals (such as this > one: <http://fhiso.org/files/cfp/cfps14.pdf>) suggests they're > reinventing a lot of our wheels. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-04-25 06:19 AM, David Sewell wrote: >> Council, >> >> Can someone from Council respond to this request for input? As it >> involves data standards I think it is Council rather than Board business >> so long as it does not involve a major commitment of TEI-C resources, >> >> Thanks, >> >> David >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 13:52:52 +0100 >> From: Tony Proctor <acproctor at fhiso.org> >> To: info at tei-c.org >> Cc: Tony Proctor <tony at proctor.net> >> Subject: Family History Information Standards Organisation (FHISO) >> >> As a representative of FHISO, I contacted TEI earlier this year with a >> view to getting a dialogue going between our two organisations. I didn't >> receive any response but I'd like to explain our position a little more >> clearly if that's OK. >> >> FHISO is a non-profit organisation dealing with data standards for >> genealogy and family history. Part of this involves mark-up for entities >> (e.g. Persons, Places, etc) referenced in narrative text, and for the >> representation of transcription anomalies (e.g. uncertain characters, >> struck-out text, marginalia, interlinear & intralinear notes). >> >> We've been looking at TEI's comprehensive set of features but cannot see >> how it can be incorporated into textual contributions within a >> structured genealogical schema. >> >> FHISO currently has an open call-for-papers at >> http://fhiso.org/call-for-papers/ which is designed to solicit technical >> proposals and functional requirements for specific data standards. A >> number have already been uploaded at >> http://fhiso.org/call-for-papers-submissions/ with more waiting to >> appear. TEI is welcome to submit proposals here themselves, or comment >> on existing proposals, but I would also like to establish a conversation >> with a TEI representative too. I feel that both of our organisations >> could benefit from a sharing of ideas and goals. >> >> Could you put me in touch with an appropriate TEI representative? >> >> Tony Proctor >> Organising Member >> >> Family History Information Standards Organisation (FHISO) >> Web: http://fhiso.org >> Tel: +44 115 714 0766 >> f h i s o ? >> One community, one standard! >> >> > > -- > Martin Holmes > University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre > (mholmes at uvic.ca) > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400314, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4314 USA Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Apr 25 12:48:00 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 09:48:00 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Family History Information Standards Organisation (FHISO) (fwd) In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304251127360.69509@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304250916050.68323@lister.ei.virginia.edu> <51794B3D.3080504@uvic.ca> <alpine.OSX.2.00.1304251127360.69509@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <51795E40.2090906@uvic.ca> I've written a response, and I'll report back when I've clarified exactly what kind of collaboration they're looking for. Cheers, Martin On 13-04-25 08:27 AM, David Sewell wrote: > Great, thanks. > > On Thu, 25 Apr 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: > >> I'll volunteer to correspond a little bit and clarify exactly what >> they're trying to do. A quick look through their proposals (such as >> this one: <http://fhiso.org/files/cfp/cfps14.pdf>) suggests they're >> reinventing a lot of our wheels. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-04-25 06:19 AM, David Sewell wrote: >>> Council, >>> >>> Can someone from Council respond to this request for input? As it >>> involves data standards I think it is Council rather than Board business >>> so long as it does not involve a major commitment of TEI-C resources, >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> David >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 13:52:52 +0100 >>> From: Tony Proctor <acproctor at fhiso.org> >>> To: info at tei-c.org >>> Cc: Tony Proctor <tony at proctor.net> >>> Subject: Family History Information Standards Organisation (FHISO) >>> >>> As a representative of FHISO, I contacted TEI earlier this year with a >>> view to getting a dialogue going between our two organisations. I didn't >>> receive any response but I'd like to explain our position a little more >>> clearly if that's OK. >>> >>> FHISO is a non-profit organisation dealing with data standards for >>> genealogy and family history. Part of this involves mark-up for entities >>> (e.g. Persons, Places, etc) referenced in narrative text, and for the >>> representation of transcription anomalies (e.g. uncertain characters, >>> struck-out text, marginalia, interlinear & intralinear notes). >>> >>> We've been looking at TEI's comprehensive set of features but cannot see >>> how it can be incorporated into textual contributions within a >>> structured genealogical schema. >>> >>> FHISO currently has an open call-for-papers at >>> http://fhiso.org/call-for-papers/ which is designed to solicit technical >>> proposals and functional requirements for specific data standards. A >>> number have already been uploaded at >>> http://fhiso.org/call-for-papers-submissions/ with more waiting to >>> appear. TEI is welcome to submit proposals here themselves, or comment >>> on existing proposals, but I would also like to establish a conversation >>> with a TEI representative too. I feel that both of our organisations >>> could benefit from a sharing of ideas and goals. >>> >>> Could you put me in touch with an appropriate TEI representative? >>> >>> Tony Proctor >>> Organising Member >>> >>> Family History Information Standards Organisation (FHISO) >>> Web: http://fhiso.org >>> Tel: +44 115 714 0766 >>> f h i s o ? >>> One community, one standard! >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Martin Holmes >> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre >> (mholmes at uvic.ca) >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Apr 25 13:39:01 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 10:39:01 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Outcome of TEI Council discussion on Text Directionality Message-ID: <51796A35.9020600@uvic.ca> Hi all, This is a joint message to the TEI Council list and to the Text Directionality Working Group list. We had a TEI Council meeting in Providence a couple of weeks ago, and I made a presentation on the work we've done so far on text directionality. The slides of the presentation are here: <http://wiki.tei-c.org/images/4/48/Text_directionality.pdf> and the minutes from the Council meeting are here: <http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm54.xml#body.1_div.1_div.3_div.1> At the meeting, I made the following three proposals: 1. That we ignore Unicode for the moment, mainly because it's not relevant for us (UTR #20 Unicode in XML and other Markup Languages advises that bidi embedding (and presumably isolate) control characters NOT be used in XML markup), and because it's moving VERY slowly on vertical orientation anyway (recent UTR #50 revisions have considerably reduced its scope in this regard). 2. That we formally adopt CSS Writing Modes, and provide examples of how to use it through the @style attribute. 3. That we create @rotate-x, @rotate-y and @rotate-z attributes to capture all manner of rotation (which can also help to handle edge-cases of directionality such as boustrophedon). There was a generally favourable reaction to all three proposals, and I was tasked with summarizing them to the Council list and to the working group, which I'm now doing. These were some issues that Council would like to see addressed: 1. CSS WRITING MODES AND BOTTOM-TO-TOP SCRIPTS: It's notable that the CSS Writing Modes draft explicitly excludes bottom-to-top vertical text: "Inherently bottom-to-top scripts are not handled in this version. See [UTN22] for an explanation of relevant issues." I personally don't see anything in UTN22 that justifies this exclusion, and indeed very recent changes to CSS Writing Modes seem to be designed to fudge some accommodation for bottom-to-top into the system: "The ?sideways-left?, ?sideways-right?, and ?sideways? values of ?text-orientation? are provided for decorative layout effects and to work around limitations in CSS support for bottom-to-top scripts." Council asked me to contact the W3C working group and clarify the exclusion of bottom-to-top scripts. Before I do that, I've been trying to figure out if there's any existing discussion of it on their public discussion list: <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/>. I'd appreciate any help with this that you have time to give. If the specification is leaving out bottom-to-top because of the lack of sufficient scripts in Unicode that are oriented that way, then maybe Debbie can let us know whether there are more bottom-to-top scripts on the road for inclusion in Unicode; we might be able to use that as an argument for more robust support for it in CSS Writing Modes. 2. PROPOSAL #3: WHAT ELEMENTS SHOULD HAVE THESE NEW ATTRIBUTES Currently, the TEI @rotate attribute (which really means rotate-z, rotation around the z axis) is available only on <zone>. The three attributes we propose, one of which would replace it, would be provided as a class. The question is what elements should be members of that class. - The most conservative approach would be to keep it only to <zone>, so you could only use rotation if you're using the Facsimile module. - Another would be to say that rotational features are inherently topographical, and therefore all suitable elements in the genetic editing set (<line> etc.) might also bear them. - Most liberally, we might say that these rotational attributes may be essential in any kind of transcription, so they should be available on any transcription-bearing element in <text> or <sourceDoc>. I'd be grateful for your feedback on this, and any insights anyone can glean from the W3C style list archives regarding bottom-to-top text. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Apr 25 16:02:46 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 16:02:46 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] stamps In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304250959250.13348@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <5178D941.8060302@retired.ox.ac.uk> <517920A7.5080906@uvic.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304250959250.13348@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <20857.35814.41000.388330@emt.ad.brown.edu> I'm not sure the proposed content model: ( model.phrase | model.gLike | model.descLike)* makes sense for two reasons. One I think is just a boo-boo, so I'll address it later. But the other boils down to the idea that this change doesn't solve the problem, in the big picture. Lou correctly points out the main problem -- that it's not entirely clear whether <stamp> is supposed to hold the transcription of a stamp, or a description of it. This (IMHO) is because a) there is a strong desire on the part of many to transcribe what has been stamped using <stamp>, and b) there is an example in 10.3.3 that shows it being used that way despite the description of <stamp> clearly saying it "contains a word or phrase describing a stamp". I share Paul's instinct that this is very similar to a figure, where one might want to describe it (<figDesc>), give a facsimile of it (<graphic>), or transcription of (what is written in) it (<floatingText>) or some combination thereof. I'm guessing that we can confine transcriptions of stamps to within something a lot smaller than a <floatingText>. So my instinct is to have something like ( model.pLike | model.descLike | model.graphicLike )* as the content of <stamp>, with prose that discuss and examples that show <desc> used to describe it, <ab> used to provide a transcription, and <graphic> used to provide an image. This would be problematic, of course, because it would potentially invalidate lots of current uses of <stamp>, which often has text content. Speaking of which, the boo-boo I referred to above is that the proposed content does not include text. Since it does include model.gLike we can surmise that this is just an oversight, though. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Apr 25 19:59:55 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2013 19:59:55 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Outcome of TEI Council discussion on Text Directionality In-Reply-To: <51796A35.9020600@uvic.ca> References: <51796A35.9020600@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5179C37B.2080902@ultraslavonic.info> (This is only going to tei-council because I'm not a member of the other list.) See below ... On 4/25/13 1:39 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > 2. PROPOSAL #3: WHAT ELEMENTS SHOULD HAVE THESE NEW ATTRIBUTES > > Currently, the TEI @rotate attribute (which really means rotate-z, > rotation around the z axis) is available only on <zone>. The three > attributes we propose, one of which would replace it, would be provided > as a class. The question is what elements should be members of that class. > > - The most conservative approach would be to keep it only to <zone>, > so you could only use rotation if you're using the Facsimile module. > > - Another would be to say that rotational features are inherently > topographical, and therefore all suitable elements in the genetic > editing set (<line> etc.) might also bear them. > > - Most liberally, we might say that these rotational attributes may be > essential in any kind of transcription, so they should be available on > any transcription-bearing element in <text> or <sourceDoc>. I prefer the most liberal approach. If a TEI user is transcribing a source document that contains text that are natively written in various directions, we should allow them to represent this directionality without requiring that they use the Facsimile module or the genetic editing set. Sometimes you just want to do a simple TEI document, and we shouldn't require people to do something complicated just because their language isn't Western. That's why, for example, <g> is so widely available. --K. From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 26 06:17:32 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 11:17:32 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] pesky PIs Message-ID: <517A543C.4030609@retired.ox.ac.uk> I know I should have squawked about this before, but this decision to add PIs for Oxygen to use when validating ODD files has two downsides: -- it does not work if you are offline (or tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk is misbehaving, which does happen) -- it does not help you validate against some other version of the schema, for example one you've just modified Of course, these can both be fixed by editing out the PI or changing it, but the chances you'll remember to change it back before checking in the document concerned are not good. Not sure what to do about it ... but isn't that what catalog files are for? From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 26 06:19:46 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 11:19:46 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Translating CO into FR Message-ID: <517A54C2.6010509@retired.ox.ac.uk> Just to report... I had a productive meeting with Florence yesterday and she's happy to proceed. We agreed: - as soon as I I know what her sf user name is, I'll add her as a developer - she'll check out the relevant bits and pieces and check that she can build - she'll work on the CO chapter, dividing it up into bits as suits her students - part of the exercise for the students is seeing how svn and xml editing work together: they will be using a svn repository at the Ecole des Chartes for this purpose - once she's happy with the translations, she will check them into the main tree - we believe that no modification of individual *spec (i.e. non-chapter) files will be necessary, but if it is that will be done in the same way - appropriate French examples will be added, and the French bibliography will be updated as needed - the exercise has to be complete by the end of June, since it's part of the students assessment We also talked about omegaT which she expressed interest in using for a future course; there isn't going to be time to get it sorted this time round though. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 26 06:33:56 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 10:33:56 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] pesky PIs In-Reply-To: <517A543C.4030609@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <517A543C.4030609@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <f3d813c0-ed56-44df-a12d-7c22cf791239@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 26 Apr 2013, at 11:17, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > I know I should have squawked about this before, but this decision to > add PIs for Oxygen to use when validating ODD files has two downsides: > > -- it does not work if you are offline (or tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk is > misbehaving, which does happen) I'd like to switch that to tei-c.org in due course. don't forget that the XML catalog which oxygen uses will sort this out for you, by pointing at local copies, when we get it right > -- it does not help you validate against some other version of the > schema, for example one you've just modified how often does that happen? i mean, how often do you edit p5odds.odd? very very seldom. so the schema hardly ever changes. maybe I don't understand why you want to validate it against some other version of schema? when do you do this? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 26 08:10:30 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 13:10:30 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Translating CO into FR In-Reply-To: <517A54C2.6010509@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <517A54C2.6010509@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <517A6EB6.1010503@it.ox.ac.uk> Ch?re Florence, (CC'ed TEI Council) Just to double-check does that mean you will have already proofread the translations and checked them in by the end of June? I'm just thinking that we're planning a Guidelines release in the first week of July so that would be really convenient timing to have these included in that release! :-) Bien ? toi, -James On 26/04/13 11:19, Lou Burnard wrote: > Just to report... > > I had a productive meeting with Florence yesterday and she's happy to > proceed. We agreed: > - as soon as I I know what her sf user name is, I'll add her as a developer > - she'll check out the relevant bits and pieces and check that she can build > - she'll work on the CO chapter, dividing it up into bits as suits her > students > - part of the exercise for the students is seeing how svn and xml > editing work together: they will be using a svn repository at the Ecole > des Chartes for this purpose > - once she's happy with the translations, she will check them into the > main tree > - we believe that no modification of individual *spec (i.e. non-chapter) > files will be necessary, but if it is that will be done in the same way > - appropriate French examples will be added, and the French bibliography > will be updated as needed > - the exercise has to be complete by the end of June, since it's part of > the students assessment > > We also talked about omegaT which she expressed interest in using for a > future course; there isn't going to be time to get it sorted this time > round though. > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Apr 26 08:45:12 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 05:45:12 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] pesky PIs In-Reply-To: <517A543C.4030609@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <517A543C.4030609@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <517A76D8.4000908@uvic.ca> On 13-04-26 03:17 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > I know I should have squawked about this before, but this decision to > add PIs for Oxygen to use when validating ODD files has two downsides: > > -- it does not work if you are offline (or tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk is > misbehaving, which does happen) > -- it does not help you validate against some other version of the > schema, for example one you've just modified > > Of course, these can both be fixed by editing out the PI or changing it, > but the chances you'll remember to change it back before checking in the > document concerned are not good. > > Not sure what to do about it ... but isn't that what catalog files are for? We've gone from a situation in which the files were always invalid (in Oxygen) unless you set up a special local setup to one in which they're almost always valid unless you're making a change to the actual schema (which really doesn't happen that often, surely). In the latter case, can't you just generate your local version of the schema (make clean schemas) and validate against that? Cheers, Martin From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Apr 26 08:46:59 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 05:46:59 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Translating CO into FR In-Reply-To: <517A54C2.6010509@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <517A54C2.6010509@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <517A7743.3010306@uvic.ca> The current French CO chapter is a symlink to the English one; presumably she'll replace the symlink with all her new content? Once she's fragmented the French chapter, should we fragment the English version to match? Cheers, Martin On 13-04-26 03:19 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > Just to report... > > I had a productive meeting with Florence yesterday and she's happy to > proceed. We agreed: > - as soon as I I know what her sf user name is, I'll add her as a developer > - she'll check out the relevant bits and pieces and check that she can build > - she'll work on the CO chapter, dividing it up into bits as suits her > students > - part of the exercise for the students is seeing how svn and xml > editing work together: they will be using a svn repository at the Ecole > des Chartes for this purpose > - once she's happy with the translations, she will check them into the > main tree > - we believe that no modification of individual *spec (i.e. non-chapter) > files will be necessary, but if it is that will be done in the same way > - appropriate French examples will be added, and the French bibliography > will be updated as needed > - the exercise has to be complete by the end of June, since it's part of > the students assessment > > We also talked about omegaT which she expressed interest in using for a > future course; there isn't going to be time to get it sorted this time > round though. > From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 26 09:31:02 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 14:31:02 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] pesky PIs In-Reply-To: <517A76D8.4000908@uvic.ca> References: <517A543C.4030609@retired.ox.ac.uk> <517A76D8.4000908@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <517A8196.5030304@it.ox.ac.uk> On 26/04/13 13:45, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-04-26 03:17 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> I know I should have squawked about this before, but this decision to >> add PIs for Oxygen to use when validating ODD files has two downsides: >> -- it does not work if you are offline (or tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk is >> misbehaving, which does happen) >> -- it does not help you validate against some other version of the >> schema, for example one you've just modified >> >> Of course, these can both be fixed by editing out the PI or changing it, >> but the chances you'll remember to change it back before checking in the >> document concerned are not good. >> >> Not sure what to do about it ... but isn't that what catalog files are for? > > We've gone from a situation in which the files were always invalid (in > Oxygen) unless you set up a special local setup to one in which they're > almost always valid unless you're making a change to the actual schema > (which really doesn't happen that often, surely). In the latter case, > can't you just generate your local version of the schema (make clean > schemas) and validate against that? Let's be clear here: I don't think we're adding PIs for oXygen.... oXygen is merely one editor lots of us happen to use which pays attention to the W3C working group note (now 3rd edition) in the area of associating schemas with XML documents. http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-model/ After next release when we point to the version on the website the use of catalogues and local copies of the schema should alleviate the problem of offline use. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 26 13:34:29 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 17:34:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] oxygen xml-model PIs Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2575C1@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> I had a bit of a road-to-Damascus moment this afternoon, and finally grokked why our NVDL script for validating TEI XML gave errors. Now it works, and I have changed all the files to point to it instead of the separate RELAX and Schematron files. This means that when you edit the Guidelines fragments in oXygen, it validates the examples inside <egXML> you can't imagine how happy it makes me to finally see this working as it oughta. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 26 14:25:32 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 18:25:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] oxygen xml-model PIs In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2575C1@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2575C1@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <01c3af2c-66ea-4437-bb15-2ea8dfda7c2c@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Can you explain what was wrong in more detail for those of us who are interested? -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: I had a bit of a road-to-Damascus moment this afternoon, and finally grokked why our NVDL script for validating TEI XML gave errors. Now it works, and I have changed all the files to point to it instead of the separate RELAX and Schematron files. This means that when you edit the Guidelines fragments in oXygen, it validates the examples inside <egXML> you can't imagine how happy it makes me to finally see this working as it oughta. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 26 16:19:33 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 21:19:33 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] pesky PIs In-Reply-To: <517A8196.5030304@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <517A543C.4030609@retired.ox.ac.uk> <517A76D8.4000908@uvic.ca> <517A8196.5030304@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <517AE155.60009@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 26/04/13 14:31, James Cummings wrote: > After next release when we point to the version on the website the use > of catalogues and local copies of the schema should alleviate the > problem of offline use. -James This sounds vaguely promising. Can you elaborate? My usual scenario is that I want to try to validate against the last release, and then if that is not available against my local copy. How do I make that happen without having to re-edit every file? From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 26 16:20:46 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 21:20:46 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Translating CO into FR In-Reply-To: <517A7743.3010306@uvic.ca> References: <517A54C2.6010509@retired.ox.ac.uk> <517A7743.3010306@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <517AE19E.1070900@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 26/04/13 13:46, Martin Holmes wrote: > The current French CO chapter is a symlink to the English one; > presumably she'll replace the symlink with all her new content? yes > Once she's fragmented the French chapter, should we fragment the English > version to match? i have an open mind on this one > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-04-26 03:19 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> Just to report... >> >> I had a productive meeting with Florence yesterday and she's happy to >> proceed. We agreed: >> - as soon as I I know what her sf user name is, I'll add her as a developer >> - she'll check out the relevant bits and pieces and check that she can build >> - she'll work on the CO chapter, dividing it up into bits as suits her >> students >> - part of the exercise for the students is seeing how svn and xml >> editing work together: they will be using a svn repository at the Ecole >> des Chartes for this purpose >> - once she's happy with the translations, she will check them into the >> main tree >> - we believe that no modification of individual *spec (i.e. non-chapter) >> files will be necessary, but if it is that will be done in the same way >> - appropriate French examples will be added, and the French bibliography >> will be updated as needed >> - the exercise has to be complete by the end of June, since it's part of >> the students assessment >> >> We also talked about omegaT which she expressed interest in using for a >> future course; there isn't going to be time to get it sorted this time >> round though. >> From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 26 16:24:00 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 21:24:00 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] pesky PIs In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A252C8D@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <517A543C.4030609@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A252C8D@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <517AE260.4000508@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 26/04/13 11:33, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'd like to switch that to tei-c.org in due course. don't forget that > the XML catalog which oxygen uses will sort this out for you, by > pointing at local copies, when we get it right As with James's response this is vaguely promising. Can you be more precise? When is "in due course"? What do you mean by "when we get it right"? >> -- it does not help you validate against some other version of the >> schema, for example one you've just modified > how often does that happen? i mean, how often do you edit p5odds.odd? > very very seldom. so the schema hardly ever changes. > maybe I don't understand why you want to validate it against > some other version of schema? when do you do this? well actually, I'm expecting to be doing quite a bit of tweaking of p5odds.odd as and when we start implementing the foxglove proposals -- but i agree this is not as annoying as not being able to validate when offline From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 26 16:27:56 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 21:27:56 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] stamps In-Reply-To: <20857.35814.41000.388330@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <5178D941.8060302@retired.ox.ac.uk> <517920A7.5080906@uvic.ca> <Pine.LNX.4.64.1304250959250.13348@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <20857.35814.41000.388330@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <517AE34C.4030902@retired.ox.ac.uk> Well yes, omitting text was an error, and yes, avoiding the possibility of mixed content by requiring <ab> makes for equal inconvenience to both sets of people (those who want to use `<stamp>` for what it contains and those who want to use it for descriptions of same, not to mention the wretches who want both within a single element) ... so is probably to be preferred. We do seem to have a consensus that the current situation is unsatisfactory anyway! BTW, shouldn't this conversation be going on on the ticket? On 25/04/13 21:02, Syd Bauman wrote: > I'm not sure the proposed content model: > > ( model.phrase | model.gLike | model.descLike)* > > makes sense for two reasons. One I think is just a boo-boo, so I'll > address it later. But the other boils down to the idea that this > change doesn't solve the problem, in the big picture. > > Lou correctly points out the main problem -- that it's not entirely > clear whether <stamp> is supposed to hold the transcription of a > stamp, or a description of it. This (IMHO) is because > a) there is a strong desire on the part of many to transcribe what > has been stamped using <stamp>, and > b) there is an example in 10.3.3 that shows it being used that way > despite the description of <stamp> clearly saying it "contains a word > or phrase describing a stamp". > > I share Paul's instinct that this is very similar to a figure, where > one might want to describe it (<figDesc>), give a facsimile of it > (<graphic>), or transcription of (what is written in) it > (<floatingText>) or some combination thereof. > > I'm guessing that we can confine transcriptions of stamps to within > something a lot smaller than a <floatingText>. So my instinct is to > have something like > ( model.pLike | model.descLike | model.graphicLike )* > as the content of <stamp>, with prose that discuss and examples that > show <desc> used to describe it, <ab> used to provide a > transcription, and <graphic> used to provide an image. > > This would be problematic, of course, because it would potentially > invalidate lots of current uses of <stamp>, which often has text > content. > > Speaking of which, the boo-boo I referred to above is that the > proposed content does not include text. Since it does include > model.gLike we can surmise that this is just an oversight, though. From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 26 16:29:26 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2013 21:29:26 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] stamps In-Reply-To: <517920A7.5080906@uvic.ca> References: <5178D941.8060302@retired.ox.ac.uk> <517920A7.5080906@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <517AE3A6.50804@retired.ox.ac.uk> My original proposal was "nothing". With Syd's proposed modification, I fear the answer is "everything" On 25/04/13 13:25, Martin Holmes wrote: > Makes sense to me, as long as we don't invalidate anything currently > allowed which might have been used. In your new content model, what will > be excluded which was allowed before? > > Cheers > Martin > > On 13-04-25 12:20 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> Could someone take a look at >> >> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/450/ >> >> I have a project which needs the fix proposed here -- anyone object to >> me just applying it? >> >> >> From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 27 05:30:44 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:30:44 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] oxygen xml-model PIs In-Reply-To: <01c3af2c-66ea-4437-bb15-2ea8dfda7c2c@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2575C1@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <01c3af2c-66ea-4437-bb15-2ea8dfda7c2c@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <517B9AC4.8030502@retired.ox.ac.uk> While we're talking about making ODD editing in Oxygen more friendly, has anyone managed to find a way of tweaking Oxygen so that it displays the content of <egXML> elements sensibly in Author mode (i.e. without interpreting the markup) ? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 27 06:21:02 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:21:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] oxygen xml-model PIs In-Reply-To: <4bxo8uq69ambmt3nsucot7x0.1367000729796@email.android.com> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2575C1@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <4bxo8uq69ambmt3nsucot7x0.1367000729796@email.android.com> Message-ID: <d567ef89-a70e-44f4-a78b-1a7a0db00da5@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 26 Apr 2013, at 19:25, James Cummings <james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > Can you explain what was wrong in more detail for those of us who are interested? No, I was lying when I said I understood. but look at p5.nvdl now, and you'll see how the main namespace pulls in four other possible nested models. precisely why we used to get those annoying error messages before, and don't now, dunno. I simply started again from scratch following a tutorial, and it worked. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 27 06:33:44 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 10:33:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] pesky PIs In-Reply-To: <517AE260.4000508@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <517A543C.4030609@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A252C8D@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517AE260.4000508@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <78902b9a-f783-4299-8060-550adf665de5@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 26 Apr 2013, at 21:24, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > On 26/04/13 11:33, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> I'd like to switch that to tei-c.org in due course. don't forget that the XML catalog which oxygen uses will sort this out for you, by pointing at local copies, when we get it right > > As with James's response this is vaguely promising. Can you be more precise? When is "in due course"? What do you mean by "when we get it right"? > its a boot-strapping thing. the last release has to be capable of editing the current release. Until today's crop of schema files get into the right place in the release, with the correct contents, we have to point to the dev server. So after the next release, we change all the PIs to point at www.tei-c.org, and we update the oXygen TEI framework's catalog files to make requests for http://www.tei-c.org/release/xml/tei/..... point to the local copy. So you'll be happily editing offline then, without even knowing it. when you want to validate against the schema you are currently changing (ie you're editing div.xml, changing its content model, and want to validate the egXMLs against what you are now doing), you've got a bit of a chicken and egg situation. You have to regenerate the schemas in order to validate against them. you have two choices * change the oXygen catalog file to redirect the path to the .nvdl file to your just generated schema * use an external validator to check your file ("onvdl p5.nvdl Source/Spec/div.xml") either way you need a local build setup to regenerate the schema. Otherwise you have to wait for Jenkins to check it all for you. > well actually, I'm expecting to be doing quite a bit of tweaking of p5odds.odd as and when we start implementing the foxglove proposals -- but i agree this is not as annoying as not being able to validate when offline changing ODD to foxglove-enabled is the sort of thing that happens once every 10 years, and will be done by people who have sophisticated local setups. the whole xml-model PI setup is to assist folk (the great majority of the council and other committers) who don't edit ODD all the time, and want it to Just Work when they load up stamp.xml to add an attribute or edit a content model. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 27 07:04:07 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2013 11:04:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] oxygen xml-model PIs In-Reply-To: <517B9AC4.8030502@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2575C1@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <01c3af2c-66ea-4437-bb15-2ea8dfda7c2c@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517B9AC4.8030502@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51ce866b-9d04-4fd8-8e47-fd5eb9391d53@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 27 Apr 2013, at 10:30, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > While we're talking about making ODD editing in Oxygen more friendly, > has anyone managed to find a way of tweaking Oxygen so that it displays > the content of <egXML> elements sensibly in Author mode (i.e. without > interpreting the markup) ? really very hard to see how you can do that. you're asking Author mode to revert to normal mode when it hits egXML and downwards. that just doesn't correspond with anything in CSS. i think you need to consult George et al. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 28 08:30:52 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 13:30:52 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] oxygen xml-model PIs In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A258D29@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2575C1@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <01c3af2c-66ea-4437-bb15-2ea8dfda7c2c@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517B9AC4.8030502@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A258D29@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <517D167C.5050902@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 27/04/13 12:04, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 27 Apr 2013, at 10:30, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> > wrote: > >> While we're talking about making ODD editing in Oxygen more friendly, >> has anyone managed to find a way of tweaking Oxygen so that it displays >> the content of <egXML> elements sensibly in Author mode (i.e. without >> interpreting the markup) ? > > really very hard to see how you can do that. you're asking Author mode > to revert to normal mode when it hits egXML and downwards. that just > doesn't correspond with anything in CSS. Yes, I suppose it is a bit tricky. It would be do-able in CSS if only there was a way of emitting the name of the element/attribute currently being formatted. I'll ask George. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 28 18:09:20 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:09:20 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] validating examples in Exemplar files Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A25EFF3@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> I have entertained myself (well, perhaps tortured is a better word) by re-establing proper validation of the Exemplar files. Surprisingly, checking that the examples therein were correct had been lost in the wash at some point. Now the build process checks the <egXML> therein against the schema they are defining; so eg tei_lite.odd's examples must now conform to tei_lite schema. Not surprisingly, doing this threw up some long-standing errors :-} doesnt require any action from anyone, just a FYI that if/when you edit something like Lite or Tite, you're gonna get BB looking over your shoulder even more than before. How is this done? an XSL takes the ODD, switches the namespace to the examples one, adds in some extra bits about egXML, creates a secondary RELAXNG schema, and writes out an NVDL schema which is specific to this ODD. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Apr 28 18:19:29 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 18:19:29 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] validating examples in Exemplar files In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A25EFF3@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A25EFF3@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <517DA071.8070808@ultraslavonic.info> On 4/28/13 6:09 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I have entertained myself (well, perhaps tortured is a better word) by re-establing proper validation of the > Exemplar files. Surprisingly, checking that the examples therein were correct had been lost in the wash > at some point. Now the build process checks the <egXML> therein against the schema they are defining; so eg > tei_lite.odd's examples must now conform to tei_lite schema. Not surprisingly, doing this threw up some > long-standing errors :-} > > doesnt require any action from anyone, So you've fixed all the longstanding errors for us so that we don't have to? Are there any besides adding catRef to Lite? https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/code/12033/ That seems to be a clear case, but I could imagine errors that could be corrected in more than one way. > just a FYI that if/when you edit something like > Lite or Tite, you're gonna get BB looking over your shoulder even more than before. Is that "Big Brother?" --K. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 28 18:29:45 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 22:29:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] validating examples in Exemplar files In-Reply-To: <517DA071.8070808@ultraslavonic.info> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A25EFF3@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517DA071.8070808@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A25F248@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 28 Apr 2013, at 23:19, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> wrote: > > So you've fixed all the longstanding errors for us so that we don't have to? > i claim so :-} as you've seen, nothing very dramatic, just enough to cause failures. > Are there any besides adding catRef to Lite? > 2 errors in Lite, 1 in enrich. also 2 or 3 in Source (eg id="Alt desc", from memory). > That seems to be a clear case, but I could imagine errors that could be > corrected in more than one way. yes indeed, thats always true. obviously I wouldn't make changes if I judged them remotely controversial. > >> just a FYI that if/when you edit something like >> Lite or Tite, you're gonna get BB looking over your shoulder even more than before. > > Is that "Big Brother?" yup. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sun Apr 28 18:41:43 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 23:41:43 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] validating examples in Exemplar files In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A25F248@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A25EFF3@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517DA071.8070808@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A25F248@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <517DA5A7.4030002@kcl.ac.uk> On 28/04/2013 23:29, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 28 Apr 2013, at 23:19, Kevin Hawkins <kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info> > wrote: >>> just a FYI that if/when you edit something like >>> Lite or Tite, you're gonna get BB looking over your shoulder even more than before. >> >> Is that "Big Brother?" > > yup. I assumed you were talking about Brett. -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 29 11:03:19 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:03:19 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Translating CO into FR In-Reply-To: <e044acdbe10584315032b1d959d0774d@imap.sorbonne.fr> References: <517A54C2.6010509@retired.ox.ac.uk> <517A6EB6.1010503@it.ox.ac.uk> <e044acdbe10584315032b1d959d0774d@imap.sorbonne.fr> Message-ID: <517E8BB7.3000905@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi Florence (Council CC'ed), That's ok, it would have just been a convenient coincidence if it was done by then! We may well do another release before the TEI Conference -- we've been trying to streamline the release process to make it easier, so it is more a question of whether a useful amount of work has been done by then. Otherwise we'd almost certainly be doing another one in the fall after the Conference I would suspect. We've not timetabled the release after next yet. If French translations have been provided then that is significant enough contribution in my mind that we could do a release prior to the TEI Conference based on this even if other work we're doing has not been completed. -James On 29/04/13 13:11, Clavaud Florence wrote: > Hi James | cher James, > > Sorry for sending an empty email just before this one. > > I am afraid I will not be able to do everything by the end of June. > > I plan to ask the students that they do their work by the end of > June, and check it then commit before the end of July. > > Are you planning another Guidelines release during next fall? > maybe before the TEI conference? > > Best, > > Florence > > -- > Florence Clavaud > conservateur en chef du patrimoine, > responsable p?dagogique du Master 2, > co-responsable de projets d?humanit?s num?riques > ?cole nationale des Chartes > 19 rue de la Sorbonne > 75005 Paris > t?l. : 01-40-27-67-69 / 06-84-14-78-71 > courriel : florence.clavaud at enc.sorbonne.fr > > Site Web de l'?cole : http://www.enc.sorbonne.fr > ?ditions ?lectroniques : http://elec.enc.sorbonne.fr/ > > Le 2013-04-26 14:10, James Cummings a ?crit : > >> Ch?re Florence, (CC'ed TEI Council) >> >> Just to double-check does that mean you will have already >> proofread the translations and checked them in by the end of June? >> >> I'm just thinking that we're planning a Guidelines release in the >> first week of July so that would be really convenient timing to >> have these included in that release! :-) >> >> Bien ? toi, >> >> -James >> >> >> On 26/04/13 11:19, Lou Burnard wrote: >>> Just to report... I had a productive meeting with Florence >>> yesterday and she's happy to proceed. We agreed: - as soon as >>> I I know what her sf user name is, I'll add her as a developer >>> - she'll check out the relevant bits and pieces and check that >>> she can build - she'll work on the CO chapter, dividing it up >>> into bits as suits her students - part of the exercise for the >>> students is seeing how svn and xml editing work together: they >>> will be using a svn repository at the Ecole des Chartes for >>> this purpose - once she's happy with the translations, she >>> will check them into the main tree - we believe that no >>> modification of individual *spec (i.e. non-chapter) files will >>> be necessary, but if it is that will be done in the same way - >>> appropriate French examples will be added, and the French >>> bibliography will be updated as needed - the exercise has to >>> be complete by the end of June, since it's part of the >>> students assessment We also talked about omegaT which she >>> expressed interest in using for a future course; there isn't >>> going to be time to get it sorted this time round though. > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu May 2 06:26:13 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 11:26:13 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] xi:include Message-ID: <51823F45.60807@retired.ox.ac.uk> If I write a book (or whatever) with lots of xIncludes in it, i need to get them resolved before running them thro teitoodt (or whatever) I see that in P5 processing, this is done by a special XSLT stylesheet called expand.xsl, which also does some stats gathering. Wouldn't it be nice if this step (or a cut down version thereof) were also included (ha) in the teito* family silently? or via a parameter --expandIncludes=Yes|No|Maybe ? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu May 2 06:33:36 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 10:33:36 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] xi:include In-Reply-To: <51823F45.60807@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51823F45.60807@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <acd6e9b4-2d04-4f4e-aba5-08a2f9b80456@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> That expand.xsl only overs a subset of xinclude, as used in p5. If someone wants to do the rest, tag would be great. There is, I think, an ant xinclude task. I will look. Sent from my iPad On 2 May 2013, at 11:26, "Lou Burnard" <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > If I write a book (or whatever) with lots of xIncludes in it, i need to > get them resolved before running them thro teitoodt (or whatever) > > I see that in P5 processing, this is done by a special XSLT stylesheet > called expand.xsl, which also does some stats gathering. > > Wouldn't it be nice if this step (or a cut down version thereof) were > also included (ha) in the teito* family silently? or via a parameter > --expandIncludes=Yes|No|Maybe ? > > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu May 2 08:17:09 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 02 May 2013 13:17:09 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] hello fraktur fans Message-ID: <51825945.9020700@retired.ox.ac.uk> I want to encode a 17th c document which occasionally breaks out in spots of that delightful font-family variously known as "black letter", "gothic" or "fraktur". I don't believe there's any corresponding CSS property, as I am assuming it's regarded as a font family, but I am not sure. My guess is that I need something like font-family : unifraktur cursive; where "unifraktur" is the name of my desired font and "cursive" is the name of the font family I'll accept as a fall back but as I am not an expert in CSS I thought I'd ask here if anyone has a better suggestion before exposing myself to further ridicule... From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu May 2 08:30:53 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 12:30:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] hello fraktur fans In-Reply-To: <51825945.9020700@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51825945.9020700@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A289963@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> I implement @rend='gothic', FWIW, mapped to font-family: fantasy, \textgothic or font Lucida Blackletter depending on medium but i would agree with your solution. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Thu May 2 10:07:33 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 10:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] hello fraktur fans In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A289963@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51825945.9020700@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A289963@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1305021001450.24981@goldenaxe.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> We tend to think of fraktur as a great-nephew of the 16th-cent. blackletters, rather than a sibling: the Continental blackletters included some that qualify as a kind of proto-Fraktur, but others that do not; none of the English blackletters are closely related. I avoid "Gothic" absolutely, since it appears to be so ambiguous (especially in a type-design context) as to be meaningless. Our worries are about how to assign @rends when there is significant alternation not between blackletter, roman, and italic, but between textura, rotunda, and bastarda variants of blackletter (the terminology being that used by Isaacs in his book on English types). CSS does not seem well suited to this kind of distinction. pfs On Thu, 2 May 2013, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I implement @rend='gothic', FWIW, mapped to font-family: fantasy, \textgothic or font Lucida Blackletter depending on medium > > but i would agree with your solution. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri May 3 05:25:27 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 09:25:27 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] xi:include In-Reply-To: <51823F45.60807@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51823F45.60807@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <f5f48c48-9353-4c35-9b9e-0332b2f971b2@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 2 May 2013, at 11:26, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > > Wouldn't it be nice if this step (or a cut down version thereof) were > also included (ha) in the teito* family silently? or via a parameter > --expandIncludes=Yes|No|Maybe ? > I see that I invoke Saxon's XInclude processor in Ant, but to make that effective I need to rewrite the whole setup. Why, you ask? cos I do the transformation work after copying the input file to a temporary directory, and an Xinclude run there which refers to relative files will fail. I need to brood over how to solve this elegantly. some of you may be interested in http://dret.net/projects/xslidy/latest/xipr.xsl -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri May 3 06:37:58 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 11:37:58 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] xi:include In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2924FE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51823F45.60807@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2924FE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51839386.5010307@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 03/05/13 10:25, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > some of you may be interested in > http://dret.net/projects/xslidy/latest/xipr.xsl whoah, clever stuff but does this mean that e.g. teitodocx will process xincludes without my having to do anything about it? now? next release? maybe one day? (I am taking for granted that we will get this in p5 document processing, obviously) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri May 3 07:24:54 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 11:24:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] xi:include In-Reply-To: <51839386.5010307@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51823F45.60807@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2924FE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51839386.5010307@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <624a465a-8a04-4944-bb39-783e528519cb@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 3 May 2013, at 11:37, Lou Burnard <lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk> wrote: > On 03/05/13 10:25, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> some of you may be interested in http://dret.net/projects/xslidy/latest/xipr.xsl > > whoah, clever stuff > > but does this mean that e.g. teitodocx will process xincludes without my having to do anything about it? now? next release? maybe one day? half way between next release and one day. i just need to redo all the ant scripts, which is gonna be tedious. I aim to amalgamate a lot of common code in them, to make them easier to maintain anyway. two things to bear in mind: - you can just write a 2 line script now saying xmllint --xinclude $1 > tmp.xml teitodocx tmp.xml `basebame $1.xml `.epub to get the effect you want. or indeed you could add that to "transformtei" for me, following a --xinclude - don't expect XInclude to work in e.g. OxGarage, cos I just can't face the issues of failed relative includes > (I am taking for granted that we will get this in p5 document processing, obviously) > eh? you want more than is in the P5 build already? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri May 3 11:36:47 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 16:36:47 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/#previous Message-ID: <5183D98F.8000704@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi Council, I've updated http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/#previous with a table of previous TEI P5 releases and links to the main page of the HTML version of the Guidelines from the version number and their readme file from the date it was released. We do not have official release notes for version 1.0 or 1.0.1 so I retrospectively added some based on the TEI-L announcements for those versions. (Currently the links for these point to the TEI-L archives but at next release the readme files will be generated and I'll switch them back to that.) In the table I've also included 'Next Version' timetabled as 'Early July' as Syd isn't entirely sure which day will be best yet. Do let me know of any errors. There are occasionally some discrepancies between our release dates and the last page-generated-date in cases where we've made quick and silent re-releases because of flaws in the release process. I've always used the advertised release date in these cases. I've also updated tcw22 to indicate that the Chair should remember to update this table at release time. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri May 3 14:07:19 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 14:07:19 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] getting commandline roma to work using local resources Message-ID: <20867.64727.9116.784080@emt.ad.brown.edu> I'd like to get roma2.sh to work on my commandline using local copies of the stylesheets and Guidelines. I have not been able to do this for months now, but it's getting pretty urgent. I am currently running on a Ubuntu GNU/Linux system that has both the stylesheets and Guidelines installed both as distributed via Debian packages (in the /usr/share/xml/ hierarchy), and as the current Sourceforge checkouts (in the /home/syd/Documents/ hierarchy). However, I'd also like to have roma2.sh working on my Mac OS X system, which only has the current Sourceforge checkouts (as I have yet to figure out how to distribute the files from the .zip you get from the downloads section of Sourceforge on a system so that it mimics what the Debian packages do). IIRC, I get the same problem on it (although I don't have it here, so can't test). I've now tried running roma2.sh using all four combinations of local stylesheets and Guidelines, and in all I get the same error from roma2.sh because the RNG file generated in step 1 has nothing but | <grammar> | <sch:ns/> | <start> | <choice/> | </start> | </grammar> (attributes and comments removed). In all 4 cases this occurs because the compiled ODD is not generated properly; it always has | <text> | <body> | <div> | <schemaSpec ident="duck" | start="TEI div" | source="/usr/share/xml/tei/odd/Source/guidelines-en.xml"/> | </div> | </body> | </text> (or the other path to guidelines-en.xml if using the current Subversion version of the Guidelines). When I set verbose=true, it seems odd2odd.xsl isn't really doing much: | Setting source document to /home/syd/Documents/P5/Source/guidelines-en.xml | Source for TEI will be set to /home/syd/Documents/P5/Source/guidelines-en.xml | Schema duck | Setting source document to /home/syd/Documents/P5/Source/guidelines-en.xml | Setting source document to /home/syd/Documents/P5/Source/guidelines-en.xml | Setting source document to /home/syd/Documents/P5/Source/guidelines-en.xml | Setting source document to /home/syd/Documents/P5/Source/guidelines-en.xml | Setting source document to /home/syd/Documents/P5/Source/guidelines-en.xml | Setting source document to /home/syd/Documents/P5/Source/guidelines-en.xml | Setting source document to /home/syd/Documents/P5/Source/guidelines-en.xml I should be getting *lots* more debugging messages from odd2odd.xsl. All this happens regardless of the ODD input file I'm using. I've even tested a pretty minimal ODD: | <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> | <TEI xml:lang="en" xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0" | xmlns:rng="http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0"> | <teiHeader> | <fileDesc> | <titleStmt> | <title>A test | Syd Bauman | | | | | |

No source, this TEI document is the source.

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| as well as a more complex one. Any ideas? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri May 3 14:17:09 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 18:17:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] getting commandline roma to work using local resources In-Reply-To: <20867.64727.9116.784080@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20867.64727.9116.784080@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A296D93@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 3 May 2013, at 19:07, Syd Bauman wrote: > > | Setting source document to /home/syd/Documents/P5/Source/guidelines-en.xml This relates to XInclude processing. The stylesheets don't do Xinclude when they read the source. This is what the generated file "p5.xml" is for. I wouldn't use roma.sh myself, but the problem is the same whichever way you work - the XSL uses document() to open the document flagged as TEI source, and jumps to what it wants. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sat May 4 06:34:23 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 11:34:23 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] wot not choice? Message-ID: <5184E42F.3040303@retired.ox.ac.uk> For my sins, I have been re-reading the dictionary chapter (I am supposed to be giving a talk about it next week) and am ASTONISHED to find that the section about "preserving the lexical and the typographic view" http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/DI.html#DIMVAV nowhere mentions the possibility of using ... Even more astonishing, it recommends using an attribute @orig to supply "the original form" which makes it seem like the war on attributes never took place. This seems such a blatant inconsistency I cannot believe I am the first person to notice it. Can anyone defend this attribute ? At the very least there should be some warning about the consequences of adopting it if your original source contains things like , to say nothing of mentioning the use of as a much saner mechanism. From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sat May 4 07:47:16 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 12:47:16 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] wot not choice? In-Reply-To: References: <5184E42F.3040303@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5184F544.2010105@retired.ox.ac.uk> dear laurent thanks for the rapid and re-assuring reply ! but you don't address my question "why not mention using " surely at the least there should be an example of doing so for e.g. a werner-style transcription? lou On 04/05/13 12:38, Laurent Romary wrote: > [Let us not discuss attributes vs. text: I take it as part of the TEI > gospel that plain text should not go in attributes] > > Well. I do not remember using @orig at all in all my dictionary life, > so I am not in the best position to defend it. In my work with Werner, > we were actually keeping the original text for things like grammatical > descriptors and used @norm to provide a symbol. > > So yes. Let's have a feature request. > > Laurent > > > Le 4 mai 2013 ? 12:34, Lou Burnard a ?crit : > >> For my sins, I have been re-reading the dictionary chapter (I am >> supposed to be giving a talk about it next week) >> and am ASTONISHED to find that the section about "preserving the >> lexical and the typographic view" >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/DI.html#DIMVAV >> >> nowhere mentions the possibility of using ... Even more >> astonishing, it recommends using an attribute @orig to supply "the >> original form" which makes it seem like the war on attributes never >> took place. >> >> This seems such a blatant inconsistency I cannot believe I am the >> first person to notice it. Can anyone defend this attribute ? At the >> very least there should be some warning about the consequences of >> adopting it if your original source contains things like , to say >> nothing of mentioning the use of as a much saner mechanism. >> >> > > Laurent Romary > INRIA & HUB-IDSL > laurent.romary at inria.fr > > > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun May 5 07:17:00 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 11:17:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] xi:include In-Reply-To: <51839386.5010307@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51823F45.60807@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2924FE@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51839386.5010307@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <2c9e3d19-f7b6-4087-97fb-b9cc2ea72fe0@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> if anyone cares, all the teito* scripts (ie the Ant scripts which they call) now do XInclude processing when they do their work. this does not include support for fragment identifers and xpointer, it is whatever comes with Saxon. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sun May 5 19:24:26 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 19:24:26 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] *Spec content inconsistency Message-ID: <20870.59946.621240.603252@emt.ad.brown.edu> This corresponds to SF bug report #571, which I gave priority 5 because I still don't konw which is high and which is low. (IIRC, someone told me at the F2F meeting, but the minutes say "Action on JC: to investigate the Allura system if possible to make the meanings of the numbers explicit.".) This should be a "2" or an "8", whichever is lower. --------- classSpec, elementSpec, macroSpec, and schemaSpec all start with ( model.glossLike | model.descLike )*, but constraintSpec starts with model.descLike*, model.glossLike*, and moduleSpec starts with model.glossLike*, model.descLike+, Is there a strong reason to constrain the order in but not the others? And I understand why we want to require at least one in a , but is there a reason to constrain the order? One reaction might be to change them all to the ( model.glossLike | model.descLike )*, and then require in but not the others. But first I think it's worth asking the model.glossLike is in at all? What's it for? They don't need s or s, do they? (Not likely to need an , either, but I suppose it's possible.) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon May 6 05:03:07 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 09:03:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] *Spec content inconsistency In-Reply-To: <20870.59946.621240.603252@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20870.59946.621240.603252@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2ADD3B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> I dont think i can defend the inconsistency here. > > ... > > Is there a strong reason to constrain the order in > but not the others? no, I cant think of one. > And I understand why we want > to require at least one in a , but is there a > reason to constrain the order? no. but those content models do in general specify an order, for good or bad. so it would be consistent to switch all of them to model.glossLike*, model.descLike*, you might be tempted to make mandatory always, but sadly that makes working in change or delete mode unreasonably hard. > first I think it's worth asking the model.glossLike is in > at all? What's it for? They don't need > s or s, do they? entirely true. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Mon May 6 08:32:39 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 08:32:39 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] *Spec content inconsistency In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2ADD3B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <20870.59946.621240.603252@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2ADD3B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20871.41703.645333.407598@emt.ad.brown.edu> > > And I understand why we want to require at least one in a > > , but is there a reason to constrain the order? > no. but those content models do in general specify an order, for > good or bad. so it would be consistent to switch all of them to > model.glossLike*, model.descLike*, Or even to model.glossLike_sequenceOptionalRepeatable, model.descLike_sequenceOptionalRepeatable But the problem with either of these added constraints is that they would break some existing ODDs. Even though it's a small price to pay (in that those writing ODDs are by and large expert users for whom such a change would be a mere annoyance at worst), I don't think the benefit is big enough to warrant it. (Would violate Birnbaum Doctrine, IMHO.) From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon May 6 08:36:55 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 05:36:55 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] *Spec content inconsistency In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2ADD3B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <20870.59946.621240.603252@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2ADD3B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5187A3E7.3040005@uvic.ca> > model.glossLike*, model.descLike*, > > you might be tempted to make mandatory always, > but sadly that makes working in change or delete mode > unreasonably hard. We could do this with Schematron, surely -- "if (not(@mode='delete' or @mode='change')) then child::desc" Cheers, Martin On 13-05-06 02:03 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I dont think i can defend the inconsistency here. > >> >> ... >> >> Is there a strong reason to constrain the order in >> but not the others? > no, I cant think of one. > >> And I understand why we want >> to require at least one in a , but is there a >> reason to constrain the order? > no. but those content models do in general specify > an order, for good or bad. so it would be consistent to > switch all of them to > > model.glossLike*, model.descLike*, > > you might be tempted to make mandatory always, > but sadly that makes working in change or delete mode > unreasonably hard. > >> first I think it's worth asking the model.glossLike is in >> at all? What's it for? They don't need >> s or s, do they? > > entirely true. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Mon May 6 08:52:59 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 08:52:59 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] *Spec content inconsistency In-Reply-To: <5187A3E7.3040005@uvic.ca> References: <20870.59946.621240.603252@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2ADD3B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5187A3E7.3040005@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20871.42923.585423.694585@emt.ad.brown.edu> Great minds think alike: already done for the new "odd4odds" schema we will be using at our Customization seminar later this week. (This is the schema that used to be called brown_odds, but y'all didn't like the name.) But I am hesitant to create such a constraint in the Guidelines proper for fear of breaking existing ODDs. > > model.glossLike*, model.descLike*, > > > > you might be tempted to make mandatory always, > > but sadly that makes working in change or delete mode > > unreasonably hard. > > We could do this with Schematron, surely -- > > "if (not(@mode='delete' or @mode='change')) then child::desc" From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon May 6 10:26:41 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 15:26:41 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] kill the classes Message-ID: <5187BDA1.8060105@retired.ox.ac.uk> I'm back with the old chestnut of how to define a really really minimal ODD... in particular, how to suppress all but a few of the global attributes. Let's say I want to suppress @ana and @corresp considering them both a snare and a delusion. My first thought was to say since that's where these suckers are declared. That doesn't work though, presumably because the declarations in that module are just "for show", so that they can be referenced from att.global without everything breaking in dtd-land. My second thought was to say and but that doesnt cut it either so maybe @except only looks at element declarations. My third thought was to try just deleting the class : That did it. Though it seems a bit, um, heavy... But shouldn't the other method have worked? From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon May 6 10:29:24 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 15:29:24 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] *Spec content inconsistency In-Reply-To: <20871.42923.585423.694585@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20870.59946.621240.603252@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2ADD3B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5187A3E7.3040005@uvic.ca> <20871.42923.585423.694585@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <5187BE44.20206@retired.ox.ac.uk> Care to tell us more about your "odd4odds" schema? Maybe we can load some of it into the "foxglove" proposals -- e.g. making content models contingent on context is already there On 06/05/13 13:52, Syd Bauman wrote: > Great minds think alike: already done for the new "odd4odds" schema > we will be using at our Customization seminar later this week. (This > is the schema that used to be called brown_odds, but y'all didn't > like the name.) > > But I am hesitant to create such a constraint in the Guidelines > proper for fear of breaking existing ODDs. > >>> model.glossLike*, model.descLike*, >>> >>> you might be tempted to make mandatory always, >>> but sadly that makes working in change or delete mode >>> unreasonably hard. >> We could do this with Schematron, surely -- >> >> "if (not(@mode='delete' or @mode='change')) then child::desc" From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon May 6 10:36:34 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 14:36:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] *Spec content inconsistency In-Reply-To: <20871.42923.585423.694585@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20870.59946.621240.603252@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2ADD3B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5187A3E7.3040005@uvic.ca> <20871.42923.585423.694585@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2B0251@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 6 May 2013, at 13:52, Syd Bauman wrote: > Great minds think alike: already done for the new "odd4odds" schema > we will be using at our Customization seminar later this week. (This > is the schema that used to be called brown_odds, but y'all didn't > like the name.) > > But I am hesitant to create such a constraint in the Guidelines > proper for fear of breaking existing ODDs. but you could put it into the p5odds.odd, used for the Guidelines production -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon May 6 10:41:32 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 14:41:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] kill the classes In-Reply-To: <5187BDA1.8060105@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5187BDA1.8060105@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <0c583b49-36d3-4d80-b6a5-3056aaa1e6d8@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 6 May 2013, at 15:26, Lou Burnard wrote: > ...so maybe @except only looks at element declarations. yup. if you ask for a module, you get the classes declared therein. thats the difference between asking for modules and asking for individual elements. > My third thought > was to try just deleting the class : module="linking" ident="att.global.linking" mode="delete"/> > That did it. Though it seems a bit, um, heavy... a teensy bit, I suppose. I am not sure it would bring me out to man the barricades if I had to write it. > But shouldn't the other method have worked? no. see http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-moduleRef.html: "@except .... supplies a list of the _elements_ which are not to be copied from the specified module into the schema being defined." I claim the ODD processor is following the spec. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon May 6 11:23:49 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 08:23:49 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] *Spec content inconsistency In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2B0251@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <20870.59946.621240.603252@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2ADD3B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5187A3E7.3040005@uvic.ca> <20871.42923.585423.694585@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2B0251@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5187CB05.2020906@uvic.ca> On 13-05-06 07:36 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 6 May 2013, at 13:52, Syd Bauman wrote: > >> Great minds think alike: already done for the new "odd4odds" schema >> we will be using at our Customization seminar later this week. (This >> is the schema that used to be called brown_odds, but y'all didn't >> like the name.) >> >> But I am hesitant to create such a constraint in the Guidelines >> proper for fear of breaking existing ODDs. > > > but you could put it into the p5odds.odd, used for the Guidelines > production We could make it a warning rather than an error. Schematron allows that. And all it would do is to require a ; if you couldn't be bothered to put anything in it, you could still suppress the warning by adding it. Cheers, Martin > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon May 6 12:54:54 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 17:54:54 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] kill the classes In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2B033B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5187BDA1.8060105@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2B033B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5187E05E.4000609@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 06/05/13 15:41, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 6 May 2013, at 15:26, Lou Burnard wrote: > >> ...so maybe @except only looks at element declarations. > yup. if you ask for a module, you get the classes declared therein. > thats the difference between asking for modules and asking > for individual elements. except that i can't ask for an individual element without also asking for its module, can I? From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon May 6 13:10:40 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 18:10:40 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] kill the classes In-Reply-To: <5187E05E.4000609@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5187BDA1.8060105@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2B033B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5187E05E.4000609@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5187E410.9010204@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 06/05/13 17:54, Lou Burnard wrote: > except that i can't ask for an individual element without also asking > for its module, can I? Ignore that. I can. I have now remembered how this works! is equivalent to EXCEPT that the also pulls in any class declarations made by that module. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon May 6 14:02:14 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 18:02:14 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] kill the classes In-Reply-To: <5187E410.9010204@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5187BDA1.8060105@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2B033B@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5187E05E.4000609@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5187E410.9010204@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <25635a12-2a11-4ef5-93b2-e67f331ab9d0@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 6 May 2013, at 18:10, Lou Burnard wrote: > Ignore that. I can. I have now remembered how this works! > > > > is equivalent to > > > > > > EXCEPT that the also pulls in any class declarations made by > that module. correct. for good or bad.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun May 12 13:41:47 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 13:41:47 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work Message-ID: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> In a blog discussion about whether DH tools are neutral: http://dhpoco.org/2013/05/10/open-thread-the-digital-humanities-as-a-historical-refuge-from-raceclassgendersexualitydisability/#comment-1884 were have luckily not been blamed for @sex. But there is also a discussion about the TEI i18n effort being incomplete: http://dhpoco.org/2013/05/10/open-thread-the-digital-humanities-as-a-historical-refuge-from-raceclassgendersexualitydisability/#comment-1884 I have posted a reply (in the queue for moderation at the moment, I believe) pointing him to http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ and saying that we welcome further contributions. However, I realize that http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ does not explain who to contact to help out with this work. While the standard contact link appears in the page's footer, the text at http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ implies that we're just waiting for work to be finished by others, though I think we would in fact welcome contributions by others (just as we are now doing with French translation). So I think we should state on that page that we welcome further contributions. Who should we give as a contact? Just web at tei-c.org or something personal? --Kevin From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sun May 12 13:49:17 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 18:49:17 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> On this note, since just saying "volunteers are welcome" is obviously inadequate (and I *know* that's not all we're doing), should we be trying to be more proactive in pursuing i18n? Perhaps even consider paying something (from our obviously unlimited code bounty pot) to help some communities get started? G On 12/05/2013 18:41, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > In a blog discussion about whether DH tools are neutral: > > http://dhpoco.org/2013/05/10/open-thread-the-digital-humanities-as-a-historical-refuge-from-raceclassgendersexualitydisability/#comment-1884 > > were have luckily not been blamed for @sex. But there is also a > discussion about the TEI i18n effort being incomplete: > > http://dhpoco.org/2013/05/10/open-thread-the-digital-humanities-as-a-historical-refuge-from-raceclassgendersexualitydisability/#comment-1884 > > I have posted a reply (in the queue for moderation at the moment, I > believe) pointing him to http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ and saying > that we welcome further contributions. > > However, I realize that http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ does not > explain who to contact to help out with this work. While the standard > contact link appears in the page's footer, the text at > http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ implies that we're just waiting for > work to be finished by others, though I think we would in fact welcome > contributions by others (just as we are now doing with French > translation). So I think we should state on that page that we welcome > further contributions. Who should we give as a contact? Just > web at tei-c.org or something personal? > > --Kevin > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun May 12 14:52:27 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 18:52:27 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 12 May 2013, at 18:49, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Perhaps even consider > paying something (from our obviously unlimited code bounty pot) to help > some communities get started? Since we're currently in the phase of waiting for detailed proposals from various people of projects that we could fund, adding in an(other) I18N would be perfectly plausible. But isn't what Lou already has on the table (ie promotion of omegat) worth getting off the ground? Domenico's complaint that so many of the examples in the Guidelines are drawn from anglo-saxon dead white mens' writing (I paraphrase) has value, indeed. We do need that facility for him and his students to upload extra examples from their cultural heritage (frankly I doubt that the Italian examples will vary much from the english ones, but maybe the Russian or Bengali ones will); setting up that is a technical problem we could commission a solution for. So we can dig a hole and fill it with water, but we can't _make_ the Bengali horse drink. There's a chicken and egg thing here - if Tagore scholars don't use TEI cos they think it can't represent what they need to express, and so don't supply examples or solutions, then the TEI will never be suited to Tagore studies.... dhpoco is a brilliant invention. beyond criticism. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun May 12 15:09:53 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 20:09:53 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <518FE901.8080407@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 12/05/13 19:52, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Domenico's complaint that so many of the examples in the Guidelines > are drawn from anglo-saxon dead white mens' writing (I paraphrase) has > value, indeed. We do need that facility for him and his students to > upload extra examples from their cultural heritage (frankly I doubt > that the Italian examples will vary much from the english ones, but > maybe the Russian or Bengali ones will); I thought we had already tested the mechanism for doing exactly that with both French and Chinese examples? No doubt it could be improved and better publicised, but it's not that experience in how to i18nify the Guidelines is lacking. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun May 12 15:32:54 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 15:32:54 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> On 5/12/13 2:52 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > So we can dig a hole and fill it with water, but we can't _make_ the Bengali > horse drink. There's a chicken and egg thing here - if Tagore scholars > don't use TEI cos they think it can't represent what they need to express, > and so don't supply examples or solutions, then the TEI will never be > suited to Tagore studies.... I agree. I suggest that a quick way to get out of the chicken-and-egg problem is to advertise contact information on http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ for anyone interested in contributing to the effort. Once we do that, I'll also add a section on i18n at http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/participation.xml . From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sun May 12 15:51:00 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 20:51:00 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <518FF2A4.2090504@kcl.ac.uk> I agree this is a good suggestion, but I would go further. What I think I meant to suggest (and this may not actually require any expense) is that we be more proactive in encouraging/commissioning translations. We as Council may not have any Bengali or Chinese speakers among us (although we do have French, Italian, Greek and Russian speakers) but I'm sure between us and other active members of the community we know some. For example, even the Tagore scholars who don't currently use TEI could, I am sure, be persuaded to furnish us with some instances of the sorts of things that we want to mark up in examples in the Guidelines, so that they could be made available alongside the English examples. (And if in the process they give us examples of things that the TEI could do better: bingo!) A wealth of Spanish examples would I bet be even easier to come up with. (In fact I know someone who is marking up a text in mediaeval Greek, Russian, Bulgarian, Italian, Arabic [as well as English and French] translations as we speak. Should we dig out a few examples from them?) My point is, if we made it a priority to collect a few more examples that are not in English, would that help to show we're not entirely monoglot and imperialist? (By precisely being a bit less monoglot and imperialist.) Advertising our work with/interest in Omegat couldn't hurt either. I know this means more work, and we're already short-handed for everything we'd like to do. I'd be willing to throw a bit of work in this direction. G On 12/05/2013 20:32, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 5/12/13 2:52 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> So we can dig a hole and fill it with water, but we can't _make_ the Bengali >> horse drink. There's a chicken and egg thing here - if Tagore scholars >> don't use TEI cos they think it can't represent what they need to express, >> and so don't supply examples or solutions, then the TEI will never be >> suited to Tagore studies.... > > I agree. I suggest that a quick way to get out of the chicken-and-egg > problem is to advertise contact information on > http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ for anyone interested in contributing > to the effort. > > Once we do that, I'll also add a section on i18n at > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/participation.xml . > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun May 12 15:53:04 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 19:53:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 12 May 2013, at 20:32, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > > I agree. I suggest that a quick way to get out of the chicken-and-egg > problem is to advertise contact information on > http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ for anyone interested in contributing > to the effort. which is just the general TEI address, I assume? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun May 12 16:02:52 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 20:02:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <518FF2A4.2090504@kcl.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <518FF2A4.2090504@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2890@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 12 May 2013, at 20:51, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > I agree this is a good suggestion, but I would go further. What I think > I meant to suggest (and this may not actually require any expense) is > that we be more proactive in encouraging/commissioning translations. That's a different thing from encouraging examples from non-"dead-anglo-saxon-white-men" literature. I find the latter easier to get my head around. > (In fact I know someone who is marking up a text in mediaeval Greek, > Russian, Bulgarian, Italian, Arabic [as well as English and French] > translations as we speak. Should we dig out a few examples from them?) > > My point is, if we made it a priority to collect a few more examples > that are not in English, would that help to show we're not entirely > monoglot and imperialist? I am all in favour of this. It is largely a matter of simply soliciting material. But then there is the small matter of vetting it in some way, which isn't easy. The vast bulk of examples in the Gidlines were added under a formal editorship arrangement, which we've replaced by a rather more ineffecient democratic process. do we, for example, have a forked version of the Guidelines with added examples which remains only on the periphery until at least 3 members vote them up for inclusion? thats the sort of thing that needs a workflow and tools, but which would be interesting and possible to implement. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun May 12 16:04:44 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 16:04:44 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> On 5/12/13 3:53 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 12 May 2013, at 20:32, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> >> I agree. I suggest that a quick way to get out of the chicken-and-egg >> problem is to advertise contact information on >> http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ for anyone interested in contributing >> to the effort. > > which is just the general TEI address, I assume? In my original message I suggested including web at tei-c.org on this page, but I'm asking all of you because maybe one of you wants to volunteer to be our liaison to translators -- kind of like the Board used to have a SIG coordinator. After all, a message to web at tei-c.org simply goes to David Sewell (or whoever in the future will watch that address), and that person will then forward it to tei-council and say "how should I respond to this person". Maybe we can have a more direct method of communication. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun May 12 16:07:40 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 20:07:40 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <518FE901.8080407@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FE901.8080407@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 12 May 2013, at 20:09, Lou Burnard wrote: > > I thought we had already tested the mechanism for doing exactly that > with both French and Chinese examples? No doubt it could be improved and > better publicised, but it's not that experience in how to i18nify the > Guidelines is lacking. yes and no. Yes, if we add exempla to the Gidlines in language X, they come out in the right place and get validated and so on. No, in that we don't have a workflow or any supporting tools for Domenico and the Tagore scholars to use to submit examples. The only mechanism we have is the clumsy (for this purpose) SF ticketing. not a big deal in itself, but its little barriers in cases like this that matter. I might add that we still don't have the mechanism to accept longer examples to enhance the Guidelines, ie the fully-marked up poem or inscription or msDesc. Some of the same problems apply. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun May 12 16:12:44 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 20:12:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 12 May 2013, at 21:04, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > In my original message I suggested including web at tei-c.org on this page, > but I'm asking all of you because maybe one of you wants to volunteer to > be our liaison to translators I used to fill this role when we have the ALLC grant, and I might be interesting in taking it back (by being the recipient of i18n at www.tei-c.org), but I fear that my TEI time is very constrained. If Gabby's got some time, be great if he could have a go. we do still have the outstanding i18n task of updating our list of missing or outdated and to translate. i fear that's on your plate, Martin? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Sun May 12 19:54:27 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 19:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: If someone is willing to be the recipient, I can set up an email alias i18n at tei-c.org. Otherwise, the default would be probably info at tei-c.org, which currently delivers to me, as does web at . On Sun, 12 May 2013, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 5/12/13 3:53 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 12 May 2013, at 20:32, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> >>> I agree. I suggest that a quick way to get out of the chicken-and-egg >>> problem is to advertise contact information on >>> http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ for anyone interested in contributing >>> to the effort. >> >> which is just the general TEI address, I assume? > > In my original message I suggested including web at tei-c.org on this page, > but I'm asking all of you because maybe one of you wants to volunteer to > be our liaison to translators -- kind of like the Board used to have a > SIG coordinator. > > After all, a message to web at tei-c.org simply goes to David Sewell (or > whoever in the future will watch that address), and that person will > then forward it to tei-council and say "how should I respond to this > person". Maybe we can have a more direct method of communication. > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400314, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4314 USA Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun May 12 23:21:19 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 20:21:19 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51905C2F.4090609@uvic.ca> On 13-05-12 01:12 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 12 May 2013, at 21:04, Kevin Hawkins > wrote: >> In my original message I suggested including web at tei-c.org on this page, >> but I'm asking all of you because maybe one of you wants to volunteer to >> be our liaison to translators > > > I used to fill this role when we have the ALLC grant, and I might > be interesting in taking it back (by being the recipient of i18n at www.tei-c.org), > but I fear that my TEI time is very constrained. If Gabby's got some time, > be great if he could have a go. > > we do still have the outstanding i18n task of updating our list of > missing or outdated and to translate. i fear > that's on your plate, Martin? Yes, back in October I generated a list on the ticket of all elements which have no translations at all, which I believe are the priority: There are 30 of them. I have no idea what to do with the list, though. Should I simply create a message to TEI-L asking for contributed translations? Cheers, Martin From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Mon May 13 05:38:34 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:38:34 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <51905C2F.4090609@uvic.ca> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51905C2F.4090609@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5190B49A.1020705@kcl.ac.uk> Are these elements with no translation of the element spec, or elements with no examples in other languages in the body of the guidelines? (Both would be useful lists.) On 2013-05-13 04:21, Martin Holmes wrote: > > > On 13-05-12 01:12 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> On 12 May 2013, at 21:04, Kevin Hawkins >> wrote: >>> In my original message I suggested including web at tei-c.org on this page, >>> but I'm asking all of you because maybe one of you wants to volunteer to >>> be our liaison to translators >> >> >> I used to fill this role when we have the ALLC grant, and I might >> be interesting in taking it back (by being the recipient of i18n at www.tei-c.org), >> but I fear that my TEI time is very constrained. If Gabby's got some time, >> be great if he could have a go. >> >> we do still have the outstanding i18n task of updating our list of >> missing or outdated and to translate. i fear >> that's on your plate, Martin? > > Yes, back in October I generated a list on the ticket of all elements > which have no translations at all, which I believe are the priority: > > > > There are 30 of them. I have no idea what to do with the list, though. > Should I simply create a message to TEI-L asking for contributed > translations? > > Cheers, > Martin > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Mon May 13 05:58:04 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:58:04 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5190B92C.8070207@kcl.ac.uk> On 2013-05-12 21:12, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I used to fill this role when we have the ALLC grant, and I might > be interesting in taking it back (by being the recipient of i18n at www.tei-c.org), > but I fear that my TEI time is very constrained. If Gabby's got some time, > be great if he could have a go. Well, the "got some time" part of that condition is not really true, but I did say I'd be willing to contribute to this effort, so I'm happy for that email address to redirect to me for now. (Perhaps someone else would like to join me in thinking about ways to move this forward proactively--or should we keep talking about this on-list for the moment?) Do we have a description of the tasks needed for internationalization somewhere? A council good practice checklist, or similar? Or should we build one...? (http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/TEI_Internationalisation doesn't really do that.) G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon May 13 06:06:15 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 11:06:15 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <5190B92C.8070207@kcl.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5190B92C.8070207@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5190BB17.3010309@retired.ox.ac.uk> I've been doing this for French for quite a while now, so would happily contribute to such a checklist. On 13/05/13 10:58, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > On 2013-05-12 21:12, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> I used to fill this role when we have the ALLC grant, and I might >> be interesting in taking it back (by being the recipient of i18n at www.tei-c.org), >> but I fear that my TEI time is very constrained. If Gabby's got some time, >> be great if he could have a go. > Well, the "got some time" part of that condition is not really true, but > I did say I'd be willing to contribute to this effort, so I'm happy for > that email address to redirect to me for now. (Perhaps someone else > would like to join me in thinking about ways to move this forward > proactively--or should we keep talking about this on-list for the moment?) > > Do we have a description of the tasks needed for internationalization > somewhere? A council good practice checklist, or similar? Or should we > build one...? (http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/TEI_Internationalisation > doesn't really do that.) > > G > From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Mon May 13 06:13:19 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 11:13:19 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <5190BB17.3010309@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5190B92C.8070207@kcl.ac.uk> <5190BB17.3010309@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5190BCBF.8030205@kcl.ac.uk> Where should such a checklist live? In the wiki in the first instance, or a Council working paper? Shall we get started? G On 2013-05-13 11:06, Lou Burnard wrote: > I've been doing this for French for quite a while now, so would happily > contribute to such a checklist. > > > On 13/05/13 10:58, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> On 2013-05-12 21:12, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> I used to fill this role when we have the ALLC grant, and I might >>> be interesting in taking it back (by being the recipient of i18n at www.tei-c.org), >>> but I fear that my TEI time is very constrained. If Gabby's got some time, >>> be great if he could have a go. >> Well, the "got some time" part of that condition is not really true, but >> I did say I'd be willing to contribute to this effort, so I'm happy for >> that email address to redirect to me for now. (Perhaps someone else >> would like to join me in thinking about ways to move this forward >> proactively--or should we keep talking about this on-list for the moment?) >> >> Do we have a description of the tasks needed for internationalization >> somewhere? A council good practice checklist, or similar? Or should we >> build one...? (http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/TEI_Internationalisation >> doesn't really do that.) >> >> G >> > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon May 13 11:40:46 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 08:40:46 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <5190B49A.1020705@kcl.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51905C2F.4090609@uvic.ca> <5190B49A.1020705@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5191097E.8090307@uvic.ca> On 13-05-13 02:38 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Are these elements with no translation of the element spec, or elements > with no examples in other languages in the body of the guidelines? (Both > would be useful lists.) These are elements with no translations at all of the elementSpec/desc. Some have translations of gloss. Cheers, Martin > On 2013-05-13 04:21, Martin Holmes wrote: >> >> >> On 13-05-12 01:12 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> On 12 May 2013, at 21:04, Kevin Hawkins >>> wrote: >>>> In my original message I suggested including web at tei-c.org on this page, >>>> but I'm asking all of you because maybe one of you wants to volunteer to >>>> be our liaison to translators >>> >>> >>> I used to fill this role when we have the ALLC grant, and I might >>> be interesting in taking it back (by being the recipient of i18n at www.tei-c.org), >>> but I fear that my TEI time is very constrained. If Gabby's got some time, >>> be great if he could have a go. >>> >>> we do still have the outstanding i18n task of updating our list of >>> missing or outdated and to translate. i fear >>> that's on your plate, Martin? >> >> Yes, back in October I generated a list on the ticket of all elements >> which have no translations at all, which I believe are the priority: >> >> >> >> There are 30 of them. I have no idea what to do with the list, though. >> Should I simply create a message to TEI-L asking for contributed >> translations? >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon May 13 11:43:35 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 08:43:35 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <5190BCBF.8030205@kcl.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5190B92C.8070207@kcl.ac.uk> <5190BB17.3010309@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5190BCBF.8030205@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51910A27.6020207@uvic.ca> Let's start with French, since you and Lou can do some of the translations. As I understand it, then, we need to generate a list of: - elementSpecs with no desc in French (already on the ticket, first priority) - specs whose gloss or desc is out of date (in other words, where the text of the gloss or desc has changed since the translation was done) - elements and attributes lacking an example in French (does this mean only in the *Spec, or in the Guidelines as a whole?) Am I missing anything? Cheers, Martin On 13-05-13 03:13 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Where should such a checklist live? In the wiki in the first instance, > or a Council working paper? Shall we get started? > > G > > On 2013-05-13 11:06, Lou Burnard wrote: >> I've been doing this for French for quite a while now, so would happily >> contribute to such a checklist. >> >> >> On 13/05/13 10:58, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> On 2013-05-12 21:12, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>> I used to fill this role when we have the ALLC grant, and I might >>>> be interesting in taking it back (by being the recipient of i18n at www.tei-c.org), >>>> but I fear that my TEI time is very constrained. If Gabby's got some time, >>>> be great if he could have a go. >>> Well, the "got some time" part of that condition is not really true, but >>> I did say I'd be willing to contribute to this effort, so I'm happy for >>> that email address to redirect to me for now. (Perhaps someone else >>> would like to join me in thinking about ways to move this forward >>> proactively--or should we keep talking about this on-list for the moment?) >>> >>> Do we have a description of the tasks needed for internationalization >>> somewhere? A council good practice checklist, or similar? Or should we >>> build one...? (http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/TEI_Internationalisation >>> doesn't really do that.) >>> >>> G >>> >> > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Mon May 13 19:00:30 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 19:00:30 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5191708E.9030906@ultraslavonic.info> On 5/12/13 4:12 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 12 May 2013, at 21:04, Kevin Hawkins > wrote: >> In my original message I suggested including web at tei-c.org on this page, >> but I'm asking all of you because maybe one of you wants to volunteer to >> be our liaison to translators > > > I used to fill this role when we have the ALLC grant I think Sebastian meant to write "when we HAD the ALLC grant". I've reworded http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/index.xml to no longer imply that the ALLC is still funding us for this work. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Mon May 13 19:08:58 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 19:08:58 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5191728A.1020107@ultraslavonic.info> On 5/12/13 3:32 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 5/12/13 2:52 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> So we can dig a hole and fill it with water, but we can't _make_ the Bengali >> horse drink. There's a chicken and egg thing here - if Tagore scholars >> don't use TEI cos they think it can't represent what they need to express, >> and so don't supply examples or solutions, then the TEI will never be >> suited to Tagore studies.... > > I agree. I suggest that a quick way to get out of the chicken-and-egg > problem is to advertise contact information on > http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ for anyone interested in contributing > to the effort. > > Once we do that, I'll also add a section on i18n at > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/participation.xml . I have done all of this but welcome a second set of eyes to look at http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/participation.xml . --K. From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon May 13 19:13:10 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 00:13:10 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <5191728A.1020107@ultraslavonic.info> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <5191728A.1020107@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51917386.8010307@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 14/05/13 00:08, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > I have done all of this but welcome a second set of eyes to look at > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/participation.xml . This looks OK but the page it links to at but http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ needs quite some updating -- two broken links, one typo, and some out of date contact info at a quick glance From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Mon May 13 21:23:59 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 21:23:59 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <51917386.8010307@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <5191728A.1020107@ultraslavonic.info> <51917386.8010307@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5191922F.7010808@ultraslavonic.info> On 5/13/13 7:13 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 14/05/13 00:08, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> I have done all of this but welcome a second set of eyes to look at >> http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/participation.xml . > > This looks OK but the page it links to at but > http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ needs quite some updating -- two broken > links, one typo, and some out of date contact info at a quick glance My link checker found one broken link (Chinese), which I've now fixed, and I've added Korean to the list of stable releases. I've also correcteed the spelling of "Portuguese". I'm happy to adjust contact info if provided with corrections. From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue May 14 06:14:34 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 11:14:34 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <5191728A.1020107@ultraslavonic.info> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <5191728A.1020107@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51920E8A.4090008@it.ox.ac.uk> On 14/05/13 00:08, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> Once we do that, I'll also add a section on i18n at >> http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/participation.xml . > > I have done all of this but welcome a second set of eyes to look at > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/participation.xml . While you are updating it... should the training and dissemination sectino contain a link to http://www.tei-c.org/Support/Learn/tutorials.xml ? -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue May 14 09:25:22 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 09:25:22 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <51920E8A.4090008@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <5191728A.1020107@ultraslavonic.info> <51920E8A.4090008@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51923B42.6070306@ultraslavonic.info> On 5/14/13 6:14 AM, James Cummings wrote: > On 14/05/13 00:08, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> Once we do that, I'll also add a section on i18n at >>> http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/participation.xml . >> >> I have done all of this but welcome a second set of eyes to look at >> http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/participation.xml . > > While you are updating it... should the training and > dissemination sectino contain a link to > http://www.tei-c.org/Support/Learn/tutorials.xml ? Good idea, done. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue May 14 17:23:21 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 21:23:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <51910A27.6020207@uvic.ca> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5190B92C.8070207@kcl.ac.uk> <5190BB17.3010309@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5190BCBF.8030205@kcl.ac.uk> <51910A27.6020207@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DD686@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 13 May 2013, at 16:43, Martin Holmes wrote: > Let's start with French, since you and Lou can do some of the translations. > > As I understand it, then, we need to generate a list of: > > - elementSpecs with no desc in French (already on the ticket, first > priority) > > - specs whose gloss or desc is out of date (in other words, where the > text of the gloss or desc has changed since the translation was done) > ok, those are easy (well, theoretically) > - elements and attributes lacking an example in French this is a bit harder, as the example may be so trivial as to not need translating (like the one for ), or be in a neutral language, and it is hard to tell whether its culturally-specific without a native speaker looking at it. I mean, localizing examples goes beyond simple language. It may well be that classicial scholars (in whatever language) may like a whole different set of examples from those who deal with spanish literature of the 20th century (of course) by the way, re the i18n page, note that Marcus Bingenheimer now in the US (cf http://www.temple.edu/religion/faculty/bingenheimer.html) -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue May 14 19:59:50 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 16:59:50 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document Message-ID: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> HI all, I've been working on this FR: which is about creating a new unified front page for the Guidelines, to replace the multiple pages we now have. Here's my first shot at it: I've tried to take into account all the suggestions we've had. A lot of the links don't go to the right places, since it's out of context. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue May 14 21:19:41 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 21:19:41 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] contact for i18n work In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DD686@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <518FD45B.3070802@ultraslavonic.info> <518FD61D.6090305@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D215A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FEE66.7020208@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2773@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <518FF5DC.301@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2D2A25@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5190B92C.8070207@kcl.ac.uk> <5190BB17.3010309@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5190BCBF.8030205@kcl.ac.uk> <51910A27.6020207@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DD686@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5192E2AD.4050509@ultraslavonic.info> On 5/14/13 5:23 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > by the way, re the i18n page, note that Marcus Bingenheimer now in > the US (cf http://www.temple.edu/religion/faculty/bingenheimer.html) Fixed. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue May 14 22:51:48 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 22:51:48 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> Thanks, Martin, for the good work on this. I've just uploaded a mockup of my own: https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/421/#297e --K On 5/14/13 7:59 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > HI all, > > I've been working on this FR: > > > > which is about creating a new unified front page for the Guidelines, to > replace the multiple pages we now have. Here's my first shot at it: > > > > I've tried to take into account all the suggestions we've had. A lot of > the links don't go to the right places, since it's out of context. > > Cheers, > Martin > From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 02:13:41 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 07:13:41 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> Both are good. I prefer Martin's for having the 'Some popular sections' as well, but prefer Kevin's having 'Back Matter' underneath the rest of the ToC. (It seems weird to have it separated.) Using background colour to distinguish those things that are part of the main ToC vs additional things seems a good idea. -James On 15/05/13 03:51, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Thanks, Martin, for the good work on this. I've just uploaded a mockup > of my own: > > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/421/#297e > > --K > > On 5/14/13 7:59 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> HI all, >> >> I've been working on this FR: >> >> >> >> which is about creating a new unified front page for the Guidelines, to >> replace the multiple pages we now have. Here's my first shot at it: >> >> >> >> I've tried to take into account all the suggestions we've had. A lot of >> the links don't go to the right places, since it's out of context. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 03:35:07 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 08:35:07 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51933AAB.6090407@retired.ox.ac.uk> For once, I agree with James! Especially, a table as large and complex as this needs some additional visual signalling to help the reader: background colour seems like a good idea, or stronger headings maybe. On 15/05/13 07:13, James Cummings wrote: > Both are good. I prefer Martin's for having the 'Some popular > sections' as well, but prefer Kevin's having 'Back Matter' > underneath the rest of the ToC. (It seems weird to have it > separated.) Using background colour to distinguish those things > that are part of the main ToC vs additional things seems a good idea. > > -James > > On 15/05/13 03:51, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> Thanks, Martin, for the good work on this. I've just uploaded a mockup >> of my own: >> >> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/421/#297e >> >> --K >> >> On 5/14/13 7:59 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> HI all, >>> >>> I've been working on this FR: >>> >>> >>> >>> which is about creating a new unified front page for the Guidelines, to >>> replace the multiple pages we now have. Here's my first shot at it: >>> >>> >>> >>> I've tried to take into account all the suggestions we've had. A lot of >>> the links don't go to the right places, since it's out of context. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 04:15:17 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 08:15:17 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> my initial feeling is that the subset "Popular sections" looks odd and unnecessary now that you see the full TOC. it does need some colour, or graphics, or icons, or summat.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 04:20:43 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 09:20:43 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> Not sure -- if you remove "Popular Sections" someone is *bound* to complain! BTW, it occurs to me we could make the layout look a lot nicer in either version simply by removing the first two words from the title of chapter 5. They're redundant anyway (indeed misleading since the chapter talks about more than representation of gaiji). Anyone object? On 15/05/13 09:15, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > my initial feeling is that the subset "Popular sections" looks odd and unnecessary now that you see the full TOC. > > it does need some colour, or graphics, or icons, or summat.... > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 04:29:23 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 08:29:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 15 May 2013, at 09:20, Lou Burnard wrote: > Not sure -- if you remove "Popular Sections" someone is *bound* to > complain! > well thats a given whatever happens... > BTW, it occurs to me we could make the layout look a lot nicer in either > version simply by removing the first two words from the title of chapter > 5. They're redundant anyway (indeed misleading since the chapter talks > about more than representation of gaiji). Anyone object? > nice idea. but in that case also from chapter 11, surely. and "Elements Available in All TEI Documents" is rather clumsy too. and come to that, is _Default_ Text Structure such a good name? Text Structure Core components Primary Sources -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 04:31:47 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 09:31:47 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE915@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE915@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <519347F3.5000802@retired.ox.ac.uk> I agree on chap 11, but "Core components" is too vague. (I may just be saying that because I remember the difficulty with which Michael and I reached agreement on its current title of course) On 15/05/13 09:29, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 15 May 2013, at 09:20, Lou Burnard > wrote: > >> Not sure -- if you remove "Popular Sections" someone is *bound* to >> complain! >> > well thats a given whatever happens... > >> BTW, it occurs to me we could make the layout look a lot nicer in either >> version simply by removing the first two words from the title of chapter >> 5. They're redundant anyway (indeed misleading since the chapter talks >> about more than representation of gaiji). Anyone object? >> > > nice idea. but in that case also from chapter 11, surely. > and "Elements Available in All TEI Documents" is rather clumsy > too. > > and come to that, is _Default_ Text Structure such a good name? > > Text Structure > Core components > Primary Sources > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 04:38:06 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 08:38:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <519347F3.5000802@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE915@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519347F3.5000802@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <400f10d9-bfac-46dd-9e7a-7cfccbe300b2@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 15 May 2013, at 09:31, Lou Burnard wrote: > I agree on chap 11, but "Core components" is too vague. > (I may just be saying that because I remember the difficulty with which Michael and I reached agreement on its current title of course) I can imagine. But you'd agree "Elements available in all TEI documents" just doesn't fit the style of the other titles? I can't do better than "Core components" right now, but maybe someone else can see a snappy title which fits the others better. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 04:39:28 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 09:39:28 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DEB24@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE915@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519347F3.5000802@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DEB24@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <519349C0.1070605@retired.ox.ac.uk> I fancy that takers for "Ubiquitous elements" will be thin on the ground... On 15/05/13 09:38, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > e > On 15 May 2013, at 09:31, Lou Burnard > wrote: > >> I agree on chap 11, but "Core components" is too vague. >> (I may just be saying that because I remember the difficulty with which Michael and I reached agreement on its current title of course) > > I can imagine. But you'd agree "Elements available in all TEI documents" just > doesn't fit the style of the other titles? I can't do better than "Core components" right > now, but maybe someone else can see a snappy title which fits the others better. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 05:35:40 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 10:35:40 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <519349C0.1070605@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE915@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519347F3.5000802@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DEB24@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519349C0.1070605@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <519356EC.70003@it.ox.ac.uk> If we were to be renaming chapters then ... I don't like "Ubiquitous elements" as you correctly guessed. The reason being I think they should be simply named since for many people reading the Guidelines English is not their first language. Clarity in the title would help. Following on from clarity, I'd want any renaming also to give precision. ;-) Elements available in all TEI documents is just _incorrect_ as I've always argued, we can be sure that they are all available only if you are using tei_all. 'Core Elements'? 'Common Elements'? 'Frequently Used Elements'? (ick!) I'm all for changing 5. to just "Non-standard Characters and Glyphs" I'm less certain about chapter 11. Calling it just 'Primary Sources' isn't terrible, but given its major shift (from P4) towards image facsimile and genetic editing, is there a new title that might describe its current state better? -James On 15/05/13 09:39, Lou Burnard wrote: > I fancy that takers for "Ubiquitous elements" will be thin on the ground... > > > On 15/05/13 09:38, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> e >> On 15 May 2013, at 09:31, Lou Burnard >> wrote: >> >>> I agree on chap 11, but "Core components" is too vague. >>> (I may just be saying that because I remember the difficulty with which Michael and I reached agreement on its current title of course) >> >> I can imagine. But you'd agree "Elements available in all TEI documents" just >> doesn't fit the style of the other titles? I can't do better than "Core components" right >> now, but maybe someone else can see a snappy title which fits the others better. >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 05:44:43 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 09:44:43 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <519356EC.70003@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE915@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519347F3.5000802@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DEB24@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519349C0.1070605@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519356EC.70003@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 15 May 2013, at 10:35, James Cummings wrote: > > 'Core Elements'? > 'Common Elements'? > 'Frequently Used Elements'? (ick!) I dont like using the word "Elements" if we can avoid it. The other titles don't (ok, except TD)", and theres potential for confusion with the technical meaning in XML. "Commonly-occuring features" "General components" "Basic features" -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 05:47:24 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 10:47:24 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE915@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519347F3.5000802@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DEB24@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519349C0.1070605@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519356EC.70003@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <519359AC.9090109@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 15/05/13 10:44, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 15 May 2013, at 10:35, James Cummings > wrote: > >> 'Core Elements'? >> 'Common Elements'? >> 'Frequently Used Elements'? (ick!) > > I dont like using the word "Elements" if we can avoid it. The other > titles don't (ok, except TD)", and theres potential for confusion with the > technical meaning in XML. > > "Commonly-occuring features" > "General components" > "Basic features" "Features" has a special meaning elsewhere in the guidelines, as does "components". James, why do you say that the core tagset isn't available in all documents? isn't that how it's defined? Anyway, we do seem to have consensus on renaming WD, so I've just done it. From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 08:10:08 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 13:10:08 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <519359AC.9090109@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE915@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519347F3.5000802@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DEB24@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519349C0.1070605@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519356EC.70003@it.ox.ac.uk> <519359AC.9090109@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51937B20.8020804@it.ox.ac.uk> On 15/05/13 10:47, Lou Burnard wrote: > "Features" has a special meaning elsewhere in the guidelines, as does > "components". It is a difficult one to name, to be sure. > James, why do you say that the core tagset isn't available in all > documents? isn't that how it's defined? Because of the way users see it. If use TEI Lite as a schema and am looking at the TEI Guidelines and see a chapter entitled "Elements Available in All TEI Documents" then I'm confused because my TEI Lite Document is a TEI Document, but it doesn't have all the elements of the Core module mentioned in that chapter. (e.g. elements like analytic, biblStruct, binaryObject, etc. which are not included in TEI Lite). By the way, I note that the current TEI Lite ODD tries to include an element called 'core' from the core module... Do you want me to delete that? > Anyway, we do seem to have consensus on renaming WD, so I've just done it. Fair enough. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed May 15 08:35:15 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 05:35:15 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51938103.2050709@uvic.ca> +1 from me.Does the same apply to Ch 11, though? On 13-05-15 01:20 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > Not sure -- if you remove "Popular Sections" someone is *bound* to > complain! > > BTW, it occurs to me we could make the layout look a lot nicer in either > version simply by removing the first two words from the title of chapter > 5. They're redundant anyway (indeed misleading since the chapter talks > about more than representation of gaiji). Anyone object? > > > > On 15/05/13 09:15, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> my initial feeling is that the subset "Popular sections" looks odd and unnecessary now that you see the full TOC. >> >> it does need some colour, or graphics, or icons, or summat.... >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed May 15 08:38:01 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 05:38:01 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <51937B20.8020804@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE915@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519347F3.5000802@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DEB24@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519349C0.1070605@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519356EC.70003@it.ox.ac.uk> <519359AC.9090109@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51937B20.8020804@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <519381A9.8060408@uvic.ca> "Commonly-used elements" would be my favourite. I don't see what's wrong with the word "elements", myself -- that's what it's about. And even if people read it in the general sense of components or features of a document, rather than XML elements, it still fits. Cheers, Martin On 13-05-15 05:10 AM, James Cummings wrote: > On 15/05/13 10:47, Lou Burnard wrote: >> "Features" has a special meaning elsewhere in the guidelines, as does >> "components". > > It is a difficult one to name, to be sure. > >> James, why do you say that the core tagset isn't available in all >> documents? isn't that how it's defined? > > Because of the way users see it. If use TEI Lite as a schema and > am looking at the TEI Guidelines and see a chapter entitled > "Elements Available in All TEI Documents" then I'm confused > because my TEI Lite Document is a TEI Document, but it doesn't > have all the elements of the Core module mentioned in that chapter. > > (e.g. elements like analytic, biblStruct, binaryObject, etc. > which are not included in TEI Lite). > > By the way, I note that the current TEI Lite ODD tries to include > an element called 'core' from the core module... Do you want me > to delete that? > >> Anyway, we do seem to have consensus on renaming WD, so I've just done it. > > Fair enough. > > -James > > From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed May 15 08:42:36 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 05:42:36 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> I've never really liked "Some popular sections" at all, but there was strong support for including it, IIRC. One question that the two mockups bring up is this: should we go for a three-column layout, which collapses to two columns if there's not enough width, as mine does, or should we go for a two-column layout from the beginning, as in Kevin's, which will probably mean more scrolling for people on wide screens, but will almost always look the same? I very frequently go to the back matter -- I have most of those back matter links in my bookmarks, too -- so my instinct was to keep the Back Matter section visible in the default layout, rather than scrolling off the bottom. But I may be unusual in that. Cheers, Martin On 13-05-14 11:13 PM, James Cummings wrote: > > Both are good. I prefer Martin's for having the 'Some popular > sections' as well, but prefer Kevin's having 'Back Matter' > underneath the rest of the ToC. (It seems weird to have it > separated.) Using background colour to distinguish those things > that are part of the main ToC vs additional things seems a good idea. > > -James > > On 15/05/13 03:51, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> Thanks, Martin, for the good work on this. I've just uploaded a mockup >> of my own: >> >> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/421/#297e >> >> --K >> >> On 5/14/13 7:59 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> HI all, >>> >>> I've been working on this FR: >>> >>> >>> >>> which is about creating a new unified front page for the Guidelines, to >>> replace the multiple pages we now have. Here's my first shot at it: >>> >>> >>> >>> I've tried to take into account all the suggestions we've had. A lot of >>> the links don't go to the right places, since it's out of context. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> > > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 08:54:13 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 13:54:13 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <51937B20.8020804@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE915@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519347F3.5000802@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DEB24@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519349C0.1070605@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519356EC.70003@it.ox.ac.uk> <519359AC.9090109@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51937B20.8020804@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51938575.8050504@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 15/05/13 13:10, James Cummings wrote: > By the way, I note that the currenI TEI Lite ODD tries to include an > element called 'core' from the core module... Do you want me to delete > that? Doh! Just went to correct this and found it's already gone. As is the amusing correction of it to "corr" in the fr translation. Excelsior! From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed May 15 09:15:19 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 13:15:19 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <519381A9.8060408@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <5193455B.8000102@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE915@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519347F3.5000802@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DEB24@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519349C0.1070605@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519356EC.70003@it.ox.ac.uk> <519359AC.9090109@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51937B20.8020804@it.ox.ac.uk> <519381A9.8060408@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2E0FAD@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 15 May 2013, at 13:38, Martin Holmes wrote: > "Commonly-used elements" would be my favourite. I don't see what's wrong > with the word "elements", myself -- that's what it's about. the problem is that most other chapter titles describe a problem, but this describes a solution. the chapter is about "Features common to most texts" (though I can see that "feature" has baggage in TEI-land) -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed May 15 09:38:26 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 09:38:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2DE6D6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: In its presentation as a bare list, "Some Popular Sections" is IMO redundant with the TOC outline. It does offer the newbie some guidance about where to start. But an alternative might be to eliminate it and substitute a prominent link called something like "Where should I start?" that would go to a page with some suggestions about where to look for different kinds of information--in effect, an annotated version of "Some Popular Sections". But both mockups are already strong improvements over status quo. David On Wed, 15 May 2013, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > my initial feeling is that the subset "Popular sections" looks odd and unnecessary now that you see the full TOC. > > it does need some colour, or graphics, or icons, or summat.... > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400314, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4314 USA Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed May 15 11:17:55 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 11:17:55 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <51933AAB.6090407@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <51933AAB.6090407@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5193A723.2060805@ultraslavonic.info> I'm confused by what James and Lou wrote. My mockup does still include "Some popular sections": it's in the upper right. I also gave it a background color, though a different one from "TEI Sourcecode". To put it another way, I don't quite see from their comments what it is about my mockup that doesn't meet what they desire. (This isn't at all meant to be confrontational. Just seeking clarity.) On 5/15/2013 3:35 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > For once, I agree with James! > > Especially, a table as large and complex as this needs some additional > visual signalling to help the reader: background colour seems like a > good idea, or stronger headings maybe. > > > On 15/05/13 07:13, James Cummings wrote: >> Both are good. I prefer Martin's for having the 'Some popular >> sections' as well, but prefer Kevin's having 'Back Matter' >> underneath the rest of the ToC. (It seems weird to have it >> separated.) Using background colour to distinguish those things >> that are part of the main ToC vs additional things seems a good idea. >> >> -James From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed May 15 11:24:04 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 11:24:04 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> If we keep back matter below body text, as in my version and as supported by James and me, then we have one column for front matter body text back matter and then potentially one column for some popular sections and a final column for TEI sourcecode Considering how short these other two columns would end up being, I think we only really need two columns. Once you get into three columns, in my opinion the interface becomes difficult to scan the first time you see the page. This is in fact why I started redesigning Martin's mockup: there was just too much to process all at once. --K. On 5/15/2013 8:42 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > I've never really liked "Some popular sections" at all, but there was > strong support for including it, IIRC. One question that the two mockups > bring up is this: should we go for a three-column layout, which > collapses to two columns if there's not enough width, as mine does, or > should we go for a two-column layout from the beginning, as in Kevin's, > which will probably mean more scrolling for people on wide screens, but > will almost always look the same? > > I very frequently go to the back matter -- I have most of those back > matter links in my bookmarks, too -- so my instinct was to keep the Back > Matter section visible in the default layout, rather than scrolling off > the bottom. But I may be unusual in that. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-05-14 11:13 PM, James Cummings wrote: >> >> Both are good. I prefer Martin's for having the 'Some popular >> sections' as well, but prefer Kevin's having 'Back Matter' >> underneath the rest of the ToC. (It seems weird to have it >> separated.) Using background colour to distinguish those things >> that are part of the main ToC vs additional things seems a good idea. >> >> -James >> >> On 15/05/13 03:51, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> Thanks, Martin, for the good work on this. I've just uploaded a mockup >>> of my own: >>> >>> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/421/#297e >>> >>> --K >>> >>> On 5/14/13 7:59 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> HI all, >>>> >>>> I've been working on this FR: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> which is about creating a new unified front page for the Guidelines, to >>>> replace the multiple pages we now have. Here's my first shot at it: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I've tried to take into account all the suggestions we've had. A lot of >>>> the links don't go to the right places, since it's out of context. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >> >> From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed May 15 12:15:02 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 09:15:02 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> I went for three columns because it gets more stuff onto the screen at a time, on a normal wider-than-tall desktop screen; with your mockup I was scrolling to find the bit I use most often, which is the back matter in my case. In mine, I left the back matter over on the right because that's where everyone is used to seeing it, but of course that's not a good reason when we're redesigning. I think it would be good to get some polling numbers on a couple of key questions: 1. Do we want two columns however wide your screen is, or do we want three columns collapsing to two if there's not enough room for them? 2. Do we want to keep Some Popular Sections? 3. Do we want to include the alternative output formats (PDF, ePub, Mobi) as list elements like the rest of the TOC (as in my mockup), or as links in a horizontal list across the top (as in Kevin's)? Could everyone respond to these three questions one way or the other, please? Thanks, Martin On 13-05-15 08:24 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > If we keep back matter below body text, as in my version and as > supported by James and me, then we have one column for > > front matter > body text > back matter > > and then potentially one column for > > some popular sections > > and a final column for > > TEI sourcecode > > Considering how short these other two columns would end up being, I > think we only really need two columns. Once you get into three columns, > in my opinion the interface becomes difficult to scan the first time you > see the page. This is in fact why I started redesigning Martin's > mockup: there was just too much to process all at once. > > --K. > > On 5/15/2013 8:42 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I've never really liked "Some popular sections" at all, but there was >> strong support for including it, IIRC. One question that the two mockups >> bring up is this: should we go for a three-column layout, which >> collapses to two columns if there's not enough width, as mine does, or >> should we go for a two-column layout from the beginning, as in Kevin's, >> which will probably mean more scrolling for people on wide screens, but >> will almost always look the same? >> >> I very frequently go to the back matter -- I have most of those back >> matter links in my bookmarks, too -- so my instinct was to keep the Back >> Matter section visible in the default layout, rather than scrolling off >> the bottom. But I may be unusual in that. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-05-14 11:13 PM, James Cummings wrote: >>> >>> Both are good. I prefer Martin's for having the 'Some popular >>> sections' as well, but prefer Kevin's having 'Back Matter' >>> underneath the rest of the ToC. (It seems weird to have it >>> separated.) Using background colour to distinguish those things >>> that are part of the main ToC vs additional things seems a good idea. >>> >>> -James >>> >>> On 15/05/13 03:51, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>> Thanks, Martin, for the good work on this. I've just uploaded a mockup >>>> of my own: >>>> >>>> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/421/#297e >>>> >>>> --K >>>> >>>> On 5/14/13 7:59 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>> HI all, >>>>> >>>>> I've been working on this FR: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> which is about creating a new unified front page for the Guidelines, to >>>>> replace the multiple pages we now have. Here's my first shot at it: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I've tried to take into account all the suggestions we've had. A lot of >>>>> the links don't go to the right places, since it's out of context. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>> >>> -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed May 15 12:41:27 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 12:41:27 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document: survey responses In-Reply-To: <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5193BAB7.8010100@ultraslavonic.info> My responses below ... On 5/15/2013 12:15 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > 1. Do we want two columns however wide your screen is, or do we want > three columns collapsing to two if there's not enough room for them? I think two columns is less overwhelming, and I think we can fit what we need into two columns and still keep the most-often-visited stuff "above the fold". > 2. Do we want to keep Some Popular Sections? Like many others, I have never liked this block. But if the choice is between keeping this and putting the back matter above the fold, then I say to keep "Some Popular Sections". > 3. Do we want to include the alternative output formats (PDF, ePub, > Mobi) as list elements like the rest of the TOC (as in my mockup), or as > links in a horizontal list across the top (as in Kevin's)? I prefer my way because it saves real estate, and by putting it near the top, you make it slightly clearer that these options gives you all of the information below in an alternative format. If we keep it below, I suggest a shaded background to differentiate from the regular chapters and specs of the Guidelines. --K. From bbarney2 at unl.edu Wed May 15 15:00:57 2013 From: bbarney2 at unl.edu (Brett Barney) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 19:00:57 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <66FE7C63-44EA-4EAA-B8AB-EB0E5796544F@unl.edu> On May 15, 2013, at 11:15 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > I went for three columns because it gets more stuff onto the screen at a > time, on a normal wider-than-tall desktop screen; with your mockup I was > scrolling to find the bit I use most often, which is the back matter in > my case. In mine, I left the back matter over on the right because > that's where everyone is used to seeing it, but of course that's not a > good reason when we're redesigning. > > I think it would be good to get some polling numbers on a couple of key > questions: > > 1. Do we want two columns however wide your screen is, or do we want > three columns collapsing to two if there's not enough room for them? I much prefer two columns, both in principle and in the particular instantiations we're considering. Pages with more than two columns take me much more time to figure out how to read--Am I supposed to scan vertically or horizontally? Is there a sequence here or is this an ala carte menu? etc. One of the things I hate about Facebook interface. At least there, though, the random access feel is arguably appropriate. A table of contents for the guidelines, though, I think should communicate order. > 2. Do we want to keep Some Popular Sections? > No > 3. Do we want to include the alternative output formats (PDF, ePub, > Mobi) as list elements like the rest of the TOC (as in my mockup), or as > links in a horizontal list across the top (as in Kevin's)? Horizontal list across the top--it gives more visual cues as to what's a TOC entry and what's not. On the other matter of chapter names: I think Sebastian is exactly right about the nature of the problem with the title of chapter 3. "Common Features" or similar would be fine with me. Maybe this is as good a time as any to mention that I've always found the names of ch. 3 and 4 confusing: They seem to say what amounts to the same thing, and when I look into the text of each chapter to figure out the distinction I'm puzzled why their order isn't switched, since the stuff in ch. 4 seems to complete what was begun in ch. 2 and ch. 3 seems to start the work that carries on with ch. 5 and following. [All right, you can now release the hounds.] From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu May 16 07:12:54 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 12:12:54 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5194BF36.8050802@it.ox.ac.uk> On 15/05/13 17:15, Martin Holmes wrote: > I went for three columns because it gets more stuff onto the screen at a > time, on a normal wider-than-tall desktop screen; with your mockup I was > scrolling to find the bit I use most often, which is the back matter in > my case. In mine, I left the back matter over on the right because > that's where everyone is used to seeing it, but of course that's not a > good reason when we're redesigning. > > I think it would be good to get some polling numbers on a couple of key > questions: > > 1. Do we want two columns however wide your screen is, or do we want > three columns collapsing to two if there's not enough room for them? I like the responsive design of 1, 2, or 3 columns depending on screen width. > 2. Do we want to keep Some Popular Sections? I would say yes, as long as it is distinguished as meta some how (e.g. background colour) > 3. Do we want to include the alternative output formats (PDF, ePub, > Mobi) as list elements like the rest of the TOC (as in my mockup), or as > links in a horizontal list across the top (as in Kevin's)? I think it should be a set of small icons/links/text near the top. We do not claim that these versions are normative. (And want people to stop citing page numbers in their bugs!) ;-) -James > > Could everyone respond to these three questions one way or the other, > please? > > Thanks, > Martin > > On 13-05-15 08:24 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> If we keep back matter below body text, as in my version and as >> supported by James and me, then we have one column for >> >> front matter >> body text >> back matter >> >> and then potentially one column for >> >> some popular sections >> >> and a final column for >> >> TEI sourcecode >> >> Considering how short these other two columns would end up being, I >> think we only really need two columns. Once you get into three columns, >> in my opinion the interface becomes difficult to scan the first time you >> see the page. This is in fact why I started redesigning Martin's >> mockup: there was just too much to process all at once. >> >> --K. >> >> On 5/15/2013 8:42 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> I've never really liked "Some popular sections" at all, but there was >>> strong support for including it, IIRC. One question that the two mockups >>> bring up is this: should we go for a three-column layout, which >>> collapses to two columns if there's not enough width, as mine does, or >>> should we go for a two-column layout from the beginning, as in Kevin's, >>> which will probably mean more scrolling for people on wide screens, but >>> will almost always look the same? >>> >>> I very frequently go to the back matter -- I have most of those back >>> matter links in my bookmarks, too -- so my instinct was to keep the Back >>> Matter section visible in the default layout, rather than scrolling off >>> the bottom. But I may be unusual in that. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-05-14 11:13 PM, James Cummings wrote: >>>> >>>> Both are good. I prefer Martin's for having the 'Some popular >>>> sections' as well, but prefer Kevin's having 'Back Matter' >>>> underneath the rest of the ToC. (It seems weird to have it >>>> separated.) Using background colour to distinguish those things >>>> that are part of the main ToC vs additional things seems a good idea. >>>> >>>> -James >>>> >>>> On 15/05/13 03:51, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>>> Thanks, Martin, for the good work on this. I've just uploaded a mockup >>>>> of my own: >>>>> >>>>> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/421/#297e >>>>> >>>>> --K >>>>> >>>>> On 5/14/13 7:59 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>>> HI all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I've been working on this FR: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> which is about creating a new unified front page for the Guidelines, to >>>>>> replace the multiple pages we now have. Here's my first shot at it: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I've tried to take into account all the suggestions we've had. A lot of >>>>>> the links don't go to the right places, since it's out of context. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>> >>>> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu May 16 07:49:36 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 04:49:36 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> Designing by committee is never fun, but it's what we're doing. :-) So far, I've had responses from Brett, Kevin and James to the questions below. [Dons cat-herding gear] If your name is Gaby, Paul, Rebecca, Paul, Syd, Hugh, Elli, David or Lou, could you please take a look at the two mockups: and answer the three questions below: On 13-05-15 09:15 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > 1. Do we want two columns however wide your screen is, or do we want > three columns collapsing to two if there's not enough room for them? > > 2. Do we want to keep Some Popular Sections? > > 3. Do we want to include the alternative output formats (PDF, ePub, > Mobi) as list elements like the rest of the TOC (as in my mockup), or as > links in a horizontal list across the top (as in Kevin's)? Thanks, Martin From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu May 16 07:55:34 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 12:55:34 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5194C936.7050608@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 16/05/13 12:49, Martin Holmes wrote: > wrote: >> 1. Do we want two columns however wide your screen is, or do we want >> three columns collapsing to two if there's not enough room for them? 2 cols is fine for me >> 2. Do we want to keep Some Popular Sections? yes (tho maybe with a different title) >> 3. Do we want to include the alternative output formats (PDF, ePub, >> Mobi) as list elements like the rest of the TOC (as in my mockup), or as >> links in a horizontal list across the top (as in Kevin's)? prefer Kev's approach > Thanks, > Martin From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu May 16 09:20:51 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 14:20:51 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <5194DD33.6030104@kcl.ac.uk> On 2013-05-15 17:15, Martin Holmes wrote: > 1. Do we want two columns however wide your screen is, or do we want > three columns collapsing to two if there's not enough room for them? My instinct is for two columns, but then my screen is taller than it is wide, so I never saw three columns in either design. I am a little concerned by how low down the screen the back-matter is in Kevin's layout, but I prefer its logical organization. Is there any way we could make the "Text Body" take up less vertical space? > 2. Do we want to keep Some Popular Sections? No. So long as we can get to the back matter quickly, I see no use for it, and it's a bit strange. (At best, maybe a separate section where we can auto-generate the most popular sections from webstats or something?) > 3. Do we want to include the alternative output formats (PDF, ePub, > Mobi) as list elements like the rest of the TOC (as in my mockup), or as > links in a horizontal list across the top (as in Kevin's)? Kevin's, I think. Or icons, as James (I think) suggested. I think on the whole Martin's design works, but I'd get rid of "Versions" and "Some Popular sections" from the flow of the text (maybe move them to a top menu and sidebar, respectively); I think I'd move Source Code out to a sidebar-like location as well (in other words, more visually distinct from the rest than just a bit of background-color). Then on a tall screen, back matter will be right after text body (as in Kevin's) and everything extraneous to the TOC itself visually distinguished from the main content. Many thanks to both Kevin and Martin for standing up these examples to be shot at, by the way. The easy bit is to take potshots once the work has been done. :-) G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu May 16 09:22:34 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 09:22:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 May 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: > 1. Do we want two columns however wide your screen is, or do we want > three columns collapsing to two if there's not enough room for them? Three collapsing to two. > 2. Do we want to keep Some Popular Sections? Ideally, I think the Guidelines should instead have a simple guide to organization along the lines of O'Reilly books (cf. the preface to the DocBook guide at http://oreilly.com/openbook/docbook/book/ch00.html). But in the meantime, SPS is the next best thing, so keep for now. > 3. Do we want to include the alternative output formats (PDF, ePub, > Mobi) as list elements like the rest of the TOC (as in my mockup), or as > links in a horizontal list across the top (as in Kevin's)? No preference. -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400314, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4314 USA Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu May 16 15:27:47 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:27:47 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] new validUntil= Message-ID: <20885.13107.61313.72062@emt.ad.brown.edu> I'm working on our new validUntil= attribute, and quite a few mildly thorny issues are raised. What I've done so far has just been checked in at revision 12101. We'll see if Mr. Jenkins agrees with me that it's all OK.[1] 1. datatype -- -------- The natural datatype for validUntil= would seem to be 'data.temporal.w3c'. But were we to do this, then I think the test for "is the validUntil= in the past" would be horrific. This is because (AFAIK), we can't easily do temporal comparisons across W3C datatypes. Thus we would need at a minimum 8 Schematron rules with different contexts. Something like ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... And then, we'd need to decide and figure out what it *means* to specify a validUntil= date that is only a month and day, or only a time. Seems to me it makes sense to restrict to only dates. I think it is OK to allow time zones in these dates (as silly as that might be), as dates with or without timezones can be compared to current-date(). Thus I have used xsd:date as the datatype. This runs counter to the idea that we should always use TEI defined datatypes. Should we make a new "data.date.w3c" datatype? If so, should we also make the 7 others? (When does this become silly?) 2. class -- ----- We agreed to make the new validUntil= attribute in a new class of its own. Am I correct that the only member of this class should be att.combineable? 3. Schematron problems -- ---------- -------- I'll try to post bug reports soon about some problems I've noticed w/ Schematron use in the Guidelines. This is really here as a placeholder and a reminder to myself. (And permission for y'all to bug me about it in a couple of weeks if I haven't said anything :-) 4. status of "deprecated" of status= -- ------ -- ------------ -- ------- I presume that the "deprecated" value of the status= attribute of att.identified is the first thing to be deprecated with the new validUntil= attribute, and have done so. Should the entire status= attribute of att.identified be deprecated by validUntil=, or do we think status= still serves a purpose? We do not (currently) use any value other than "deprecated" in the source of the Guidelines. I presume that the "deprecated" value of the status= attribute of att.docStatus should be left alone. 5. ODD processing -- --- ---------- The roma stylesheets should be updated to do the right thing. I am not sure whether I am hoping that Sebastian gets to this before I do to spare me the hassle, or that I get to it before Sebastian does just to get more experience mucking with the ODD stylesheets. 6. Chapter -- ------- I have *not* documented this attribute in chapter TD yet. I thought I'd leave the definition lying around for a week or two to see if there were any problems or suggested changes, first. 7. tests -- ----- I have not added any tests in P5/Test yet. Should we? Since the only important tests are based on the current date, it seemed a bit problematic, if not silly. I suppose we could test that validUntil=3015-05-16 doesn't fire and that validUntil=1015-05-16 does. But we can't really test the equality test easily. 8. ODD oddity -- --- ------ In order to get a valid DTD out of roma, I found that I had to put predeclare=true on the , not the . Is that the intended behavior? Note ---- [1] Well, almost. My local build gives 1 java error, apparently from `trang` translation of RNG to XSD of an Exemplar, I think of tei_tite. Will that cause Mr. Jenkins to fall over? From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu May 16 15:34:59 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 19:34:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] new validUntil= In-Reply-To: <20885.13107.61313.72062@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20885.13107.61313.72062@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2EAB26@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> > > 5. ODD processing > -- --- ---------- > The roma stylesheets should be updated to do the right thing. I am > not sure whether I am hoping that Sebastian gets to this before I do > to spare me the hassle, or that I get to it before Sebastian does > just to get more experience mucking with the ODD stylesheets. > I am not really in TEI mode at the moment, so it would be great if you could have a go. I'd suggest you start by sketching out what the implementation will do, and pass that by here for sanity check, before coding; because its not obvious to me how we want to display this > 8. ODD oddity > -- --- ------ > In order to get a valid DTD out of roma, I found that I had to put > predeclare=true on the , not the . Is that the > intended behavior? oh lord. yes, probably, because its in an optional module. > > Note > ---- > [1] Well, almost. My local build gives 1 java error, apparently from > `trang` translation of RNG to XSD of an Exemplar, I think of > tei_tite. Will that cause Mr. Jenkins to fall over? you'll find out soon...... -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu May 16 16:51:54 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 16:51:54 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] new validUntil= In-Reply-To: <20885.13107.61313.72062@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20885.13107.61313.72062@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <519546EA.4030304@ultraslavonic.info> Below ... On 5/16/2013 3:27 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: > 4. status of "deprecated" of status= > -- ------ -- ------------ -- ------- > I presume that the "deprecated" value of the status= attribute of > att.identified is the first thing to be deprecated with the new > validUntil= attribute, and have done so. Should the entire status= > attribute of att.identified be deprecated by validUntil=, or do we > think status= still serves a purpose? We do not (currently) use any > value other than "deprecated" in the source of the Guidelines. When we first implemented this ( http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/118/#724e ), we had in mind other values, but we haven't used them. On reflection, I don't think we generally introduce things we consider unstable, and if we do, we don't know at the time whether they will end up being unstable. So I think we should just deprecate the whole @status attribute. I've noted this at http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Practices_no_longer_recommended_or_now_deprecated#1._Decide_remaining_questions > I presume that the "deprecated" value of the status= attribute of > att.docStatus should be left alone. Right. That's an unrelated @status. > 7. tests > -- ----- > I have not added any tests in P5/Test yet. Should we? Since the only > important tests are based on the current date, it seemed a bit > problematic, if not silly. I suppose we could test that > validUntil=3015-05-16 doesn't fire and that validUntil=1015-05-16 > does. But we can't really test the equality test easily. It's problematic because of what you described in section 1 of your email? If so, and we don't find a way around this, then I think we'll need to just add a manual step to tcw22. Both options are described in brief at http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Practices_no_longer_recommended_or_now_deprecated#3._Modify_release_building_procedure --K. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu May 16 17:10:44 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 21:10:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] new validUntil= In-Reply-To: <519546EA.4030304@ultraslavonic.info> References: <20885.13107.61313.72062@emt.ad.brown.edu> <519546EA.4030304@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2EB79D@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> re testing, we write the XSLT to compare the validUntil date to a variable called $todaysdate. That can default to the current date, but for the purposes of testing, we pass in a fixed date (ie 1st Jan 1970), and have an ODD which has some values for @validUntil related to that fixed date. (untested :-}) -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Fri May 17 05:45:51 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 10:45:51 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] new validUntil= In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2EB79D@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <20885.13107.61313.72062@emt.ad.brown.edu> <519546EA.4030304@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2EB79D@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5195FC4F.9080809@kcl.ac.uk> Can't you just compare @validUntil to current-date()? I haven't tested, but if XSLT2 doesn't allow a simple "@validUntil > current-date()" test, then it's a pretty poor show... On 2013-05-16 22:10, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > re testing, we write the XSLT to compare the validUntil date to a > variable called $todaysdate. That can default to the current date, but for > the purposes of testing, we pass in a fixed date (ie 1st Jan 1970), > and have an ODD which has some values for @validUntil related to > that fixed date. > > > > > (untested :-}) > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri May 17 11:49:27 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 08:49:27 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51965187.4050900@uvic.ca> So far we've had responses from Kevin, Lou, James, Gaby, Brett, David and me. I've summarized these on the ticket: So, Becky, Elli, Sebastian, Syd, Paul and Hugh: could you respond either by email or by adding your initials to the ticket in the relevant places? Once we have a consensus, I'll create a second mockup incorporating those decisions and some of the other suggestions, and we'll see how we feel about that. Cheers, Martin On 13-05-16 06:22 AM, David Sewell wrote: > On Thu, 16 May 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: > >> 1. Do we want two columns however wide your screen is, or do we want >> three columns collapsing to two if there's not enough room for them? > > Three collapsing to two. > >> 2. Do we want to keep Some Popular Sections? > > Ideally, I think the Guidelines should instead have a simple guide to > organization along the lines of O'Reilly books (cf. the preface to the > DocBook guide at http://oreilly.com/openbook/docbook/book/ch00.html). > But in the meantime, SPS is the next best thing, so keep for now. > >> 3. Do we want to include the alternative output formats (PDF, ePub, >> Mobi) as list elements like the rest of the TOC (as in my mockup), or as >> links in a horizontal list across the top (as in Kevin's)? > > No preference. > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri May 17 12:24:18 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 16:24:18 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestion for a new Guidelines TOC document In-Reply-To: <51965187.4050900@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> <51965187.4050900@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2F2517@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> i added my votes -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Sun May 19 18:42:26 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 23:42:26 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] errors in rendering of TEI Guidelines examples in PH Message-ID: <51995552.1020201@it.ox.ac.uk> Can you confirm that something seems to be going wrong with the examples at: http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/PH.html#PHCOMB and a number of other places in that chapter as least? (search for References: <51995552.1020201@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51996415.6090504@uvic.ca> Confirmed broken, and still so in Jenkins: The encoding looks OK, but the examples do appear within a /, which itself is inside a

, so it wouldn't be surprising if the stylesheets stumbled a bit. But that chapter was one we proofed fairly thoroughly when the genetic editing stuff was added, so I'm pretty sure this wasn't happening then. Perhaps Sebastian remembers a recent change to the stylesheets which might have caused this. Meanwhile, I'll experiment a bit to see if changing the structure avoids the problem. Cheers, Martin On 13-05-19 03:42 PM, James Cummings wrote: > > Can you confirm that something seems to be going wrong with the > examples at: > > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/PH.html#PHCOMB > > and a number of other places in that chapter as least? > > (search for > I couldn't see anything wrong in the source file though. > > Suggestions? > > -James > From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun May 19 19:54:54 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 16:54:54 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] errors in rendering of TEI Guidelines examples in PH In-Reply-To: <51995552.1020201@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51995552.1020201@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5199664E.2000300@uvic.ca> The problem is indeed caused by the structure of p containing list containing item containing egXML. I moved the last example out of the list, and it renders fine. Cheers, Martin On 13-05-19 03:42 PM, James Cummings wrote: > > Can you confirm that something seems to be going wrong with the > examples at: > > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/PH.html#PHCOMB > > and a number of other places in that chapter as least? > > (search for > I couldn't see anything wrong in the source file though. > > Suggestions? > > -James > From mholmes at uvic.ca Sun May 19 19:57:11 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 16:57:11 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] errors in rendering of TEI Guidelines examples in PH In-Reply-To: <5199664E.2000300@uvic.ca> References: <51995552.1020201@it.ox.ac.uk> <5199664E.2000300@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <519966D7.2000906@uvic.ca> It didn't happen in the last release: so some change to the stylesheets between 2.2 and 2.3 seems likely to be the culprit. Cheers, Martin On 13-05-19 04:54 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > The problem is indeed caused by the structure of p containing list > containing item containing egXML. I moved the last example out of the > list, and it renders fine. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-05-19 03:42 PM, James Cummings wrote: >> >> Can you confirm that something seems to be going wrong with the >> examples at: >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/PH.html#PHCOMB >> >> and a number of other places in that chapter as least? >> >> (search for > >> I couldn't see anything wrong in the source file though. >> >> Suggestions? >> >> -James >> From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon May 20 04:07:12 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 08:07:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] errors in rendering of TEI Guidelines examples in PH In-Reply-To: <519966D7.2000906@uvic.ca> References: <51995552.1020201@it.ox.ac.uk> <5199664E.2000300@uvic.ca> <519966D7.2000906@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2FB2BF@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> ah. i think I know what that is. When you find in TEI a construct like

, it turns naturally into

    in HTML. However, that is illegal HTML, so I process the HTML in a second pass to turn it into

      etc. Which all works well. However, that verbatim stuff is done using a bad trick of disable-output-escaping, which does not survive a second pass. in the short term, redoing the TEI markup to avoid

      will solve the problem. in the longer term I have to somehow rewrite verbatim. I have no idea how :-{ :-{ (obviously anyone else is welcome to try....) -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon May 20 09:35:50 2013 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 09:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] errors in rendering of TEI Guidelines examples in PH In-Reply-To: <51995552.1020201@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51995552.1020201@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Along with the tagging issues, would there be any advantage to modifying the CSS so that long eg/egXML examples use white-space:pre-wrap instead of white-space:pre? That way extra-long single lines won't expand beyond the boundaries of the div box. On the other hand, if whitespace in the example XML is semantically significant, adding linebreaks isn't good. So I assume that as an editorial matter, we try to keep line length inside the egXML samples at a reasonable length so that lines will display properly? David On Sun, 19 May 2013, James Cummings wrote: > > Can you confirm that something seems to be going wrong with the > examples at: > > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/PH.html#PHCOMB > > and a number of other places in that chapter as least? > > (search for > I couldn't see anything wrong in the source file though. > > Suggestions? > > -James > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400314, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4314 USA Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue May 21 11:10:33 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 08:10:33 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] errors in rendering of TEI Guidelines examples in PH In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2FB2BF@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51995552.1020201@it.ox.ac.uk> <5199664E.2000300@uvic.ca> <519966D7.2000906@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2FB2BF@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <519B8E69.8000703@uvic.ca> I've more or less given up on using

      in a lot of my XHTML rendering; I use

      instead. It gets around this. Would that be practical, or is it too big a change with too many repercussions? Cheers, Martin On 13-05-20 01:07 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > ah. i think I know what that is. > > When you find in TEI a construct like

      , it turns naturally into

        in HTML. However, that is illegal HTML, > so I process the HTML in a second pass to turn it into

          etc. Which all works well. However, that > verbatim stuff is done using a bad trick of disable-output-escaping, which does not survive a second pass. > > in the short term, redoing the TEI markup to avoid

          will solve the problem. in the longer term I have to somehow > rewrite verbatim. I have no idea how :-{ :-{ (obviously anyone else is welcome to try....) > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue May 21 11:16:03 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 08:16:03 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] errors in rendering of TEI Guidelines examples in PH In-Reply-To: References: <51995552.1020201@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <519B8FB3.7020609@uvic.ca> On 13-05-20 06:35 AM, David Sewell wrote: > Along with the tagging issues, would there be any advantage to modifying the CSS > so that long eg/egXML examples use white-space:pre-wrap instead of > white-space:pre? That way extra-long single lines won't expand beyond the > boundaries of the div box. That might be worth experimenting with. > On the other hand, if whitespace in the example XML is semantically significant, > adding linebreaks isn't good. So I assume that as an editorial matter, we try to > keep line length inside the egXML samples at a reasonable length so that lines > will display properly? That's exactly what we do at the moment. It's a bit hacky, but for any given example, the ideal in terms of spacing and wrapping may be different. I usually end up tweaking my examples once or twice once I see what the stylesheets do with them. Cheers, Martin > > David > > On Sun, 19 May 2013, James Cummings wrote: > >> >> Can you confirm that something seems to be going wrong with the >> examples at: >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/PH.html#PHCOMB >> >> and a number of other places in that chapter as least? >> >> (search for > >> I couldn't see anything wrong in the source file though. >> >> Suggestions? >> >> -James >> >> > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue May 21 11:58:49 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 15:58:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] errors in rendering of TEI Guidelines examples in PH In-Reply-To: <519B8E69.8000703@uvic.ca> References: <51995552.1020201@it.ox.ac.uk> <5199664E.2000300@uvic.ca> <519966D7.2000906@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A2FB2BF@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519B8E69.8000703@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3065E1@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 21 May 2013, at 16:10, Martin Holmes wrote: > I've more or less given up on using

          in a lot of my XHTML rendering; I use

          instead. It gets around this. Would that be practical, or is it too big a change with too many repercussions? i can't face going over it all again at the mo. I would rather rewrite the verbatim anyway (which I think I can do), because its inherentky unstable using d-o-e -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue May 21 12:44:24 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 09:44:24 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Calling Becky, Elli, Syd and Paul In-Reply-To: <51965187.4050900@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> <51965187.4050900@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <519BA468.7030706@uvic.ca> Hi there, Any chance you could post your preferences on this ticket in the next day or two? Cheers, Martin On 13-05-17 08:49 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > So far we've had responses from Kevin, Lou, James, Gaby, Brett, David > and me. I've summarized these on the ticket: > > > > So, Becky, Elli, Sebastian, Syd, Paul and Hugh: could you respond either > by email or by adding your initials to the ticket in the relevant places? > > Once we have a consensus, I'll create a second mockup incorporating > those decisions and some of the other suggestions, and we'll see how we > feel about that. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-05-16 06:22 AM, David Sewell wrote: >> On Thu, 16 May 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: >> >>> 1. Do we want two columns however wide your screen is, or do we want >>> three columns collapsing to two if there's not enough room for them? >> >> Three collapsing to two. >> >>> 2. Do we want to keep Some Popular Sections? >> >> Ideally, I think the Guidelines should instead have a simple guide to >> organization along the lines of O'Reilly books (cf. the preface to the >> DocBook guide at http://oreilly.com/openbook/docbook/book/ch00.html). >> But in the meantime, SPS is the next best thing, so keep for now. >> >>> 3. Do we want to include the alternative output formats (PDF, ePub, >>> Mobi) as list elements like the rest of the TOC (as in my mockup), or as >>> links in a horizontal list across the top (as in Kevin's)? >> >> No preference. >> > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Tue May 21 13:25:11 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 13:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Calling Becky, Elli, Syd and Paul In-Reply-To: <519BA468.7030706@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> <51965187.4050900@uvic.ca> <519BA468.7030706@uvic.ca> Message-ID: Will do. I've stayed away from this one because I usually have little useful to add on issues of layout and interface, but I will grind away and come up with an Opinion. pfs On Tue, 21 May 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: > Hi there, > > Any chance you could post your preferences on this ticket in the next > day or two? > > > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-05-17 08:49 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> So far we've had responses from Kevin, Lou, James, Gaby, Brett, David >> and me. I've summarized these on the ticket: >> >> >> >> So, Becky, Elli, Sebastian, Syd, Paul and Hugh: could you respond either >> by email or by adding your initials to the ticket in the relevant places? >> >> Once we have a consensus, I'll create a second mockup incorporating >> those decisions and some of the other suggestions, and we'll see how we >> feel about that. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-05-16 06:22 AM, David Sewell wrote: >>> On Thu, 16 May 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> >>>> 1. Do we want two columns however wide your screen is, or do we want >>>> three columns collapsing to two if there's not enough room for them? >>> >>> Three collapsing to two. >>> >>>> 2. Do we want to keep Some Popular Sections? >>> >>> Ideally, I think the Guidelines should instead have a simple guide to >>> organization along the lines of O'Reilly books (cf. the preface to the >>> DocBook guide at http://oreilly.com/openbook/docbook/book/ch00.html). >>> But in the meantime, SPS is the next best thing, so keep for now. >>> >>>> 3. Do we want to include the alternative output formats (PDF, ePub, >>>> Mobi) as list elements like the rest of the TOC (as in my mockup), or as >>>> links in a horizontal list across the top (as in Kevin's)? >>> >>> No preference. >>> >> > > -- > Martin Holmes > University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre > (mholmes at uvic.ca) > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1190 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed May 22 08:47:46 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 08:47:46 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Calling Becky, Elli, Syd and Paul In-Reply-To: <519BA468.7030706@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> <51965187.4050900@uvic.ca> <519BA468.7030706@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20892.48754.653074.206977@emt.ad.brown.edu> Yes, will try to post either late today or early tomorrow. > Any chance you could post your preferences on this ticket in the > next day or two? > > From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Wed May 22 23:23:31 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 23:23:31 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Calling Becky, Elli, Syd and Paul In-Reply-To: <20892.48754.653074.206977@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> <51965187.4050900@uvic.ca> <519BA468.7030706@uvic.ca> <20892.48754.653074.206977@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: Added my votes to the ticket. Becky On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > Yes, will try to post either late today or early tomorrow. > >> Any chance you could post your preferences on this ticket in the >> next day or two? >> >> > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Wed May 22 23:33:15 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 23:33:15 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Calling Becky, Elli, Syd and Paul In-Reply-To: References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> <51965187.4050900@uvic.ca> <519BA468.7030706@uvic.ca> <20892.48754.653074.206977@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: vote coming in the am -elli On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 11:23 PM, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: > Added my votes to the ticket. > > Becky > > On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: >> Yes, will try to post either late today or early tomorrow. >> >>> Any chance you could post your preferences on this ticket in the >>> next day or two? >>> >>> >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu May 23 10:56:25 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 14:56:25 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] content model of , Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A31691F@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> I'd love to get some support on https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/455/, which I claim is uncontroversial. will anyone second me, so I can claim its agreed, and just do it? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu May 23 14:23:07 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 11:23:07 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again Message-ID: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> Thanks to everyone for your comments. Based on the feedback, I've created a new mockup: This goes for responsive layout (3 columns collapsing to two), dispenses with Some Popular Sections, and puts the links to PDF etc. as icons across the top. It also occurred to me that we could put Front and Back Matter in one column, with Body in the centre column, so I've done that; it has the advantage of making the Back Matter easily accessible for folks who use it a lot like me, while still foregrounding the Body. Please post any comments on this iteration on the ticket. From now on, I'll take silence as assent. :-) Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu May 23 15:12:23 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 15:12:23 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> I like it. The rationale for the layout of front, back and body is good. (Although I'm looking at it on a laptop right now, so not sure what happens when it responses down to two columns? I take it none of the individual lists will wrap across columns?) G On 23/05/2013 14:23, Martin Holmes wrote: > Thanks to everyone for your comments. Based on the feedback, I've > created a new mockup: > > > > This goes for responsive layout (3 columns collapsing to two), dispenses > with Some Popular Sections, and puts the links to PDF etc. as icons > across the top. It also occurred to me that we could put Front and Back > Matter in one column, with Body in the centre column, so I've done that; > it has the advantage of making the Back Matter easily accessible for > folks who use it a lot like me, while still foregrounding the Body. > > Please post any comments on this iteration on the ticket. From now on, > I'll take silence as assent. :-) > > Cheers, > Martin > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu May 23 15:20:39 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 12:20:39 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <519E6C07.8060607@uvic.ca> On 13-05-23 12:12 PM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > I like it. The rationale for the layout of front, back and body is good. > (Although I'm looking at it on a laptop right now, so not sure what > happens when it responses down to two columns? I take it none of the > individual lists will wrap across columns?) What actually happens is that the "TEI sourcecode" column wraps below the other two, since the middle column is the longest. That means that it effectively disappears to the bottom of the page, but since it's the least important bit, I think that's the best behaviour. None of the lists themselves will be broken by a wrap. Cheers, Martin > > G > > On 23/05/2013 14:23, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Thanks to everyone for your comments. Based on the feedback, I've >> created a new mockup: >> >> >> >> This goes for responsive layout (3 columns collapsing to two), dispenses >> with Some Popular Sections, and puts the links to PDF etc. as icons >> across the top. It also occurred to me that we could put Front and Back >> Matter in one column, with Body in the centre column, so I've done that; >> it has the advantage of making the Back Matter easily accessible for >> folks who use it a lot like me, while still foregrounding the Body. >> >> Please post any comments on this iteration on the ticket. From now on, >> I'll take silence as assent. :-) >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu May 23 15:22:38 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 19:22:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> the content and layout is better. but its a bit Spartan. much bigger icons for PDF and ePub? some coloured boxes? flags for languages? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu May 23 15:30:01 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 12:30:01 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> I was with you until "flags for languages". :-) I have a couple of ideas about making the headings look more sectional. The icons came only in that size (16 x 16), but I can look around for some larger ones if necessary, or re-create them (they're Creative-Commons-attribution). One problem with actually making things into boxes (i.e. putting borders around them) is that it becomes clear that they're not the same width. The way I have the columns sized and distributed right now is the best balance I could come up with that allows for optimum content size for each column (the middle one needs to be biggest, then the one on the left, then the one on the right); it looks relatively balanced, I think, but if we put borders around things, it will look less so because the variable widths will be more apparent. Cheers, Martin On 13-05-23 12:22 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > the content and layout is better. but its a bit Spartan. much bigger icons for PDF and ePub? some coloured > boxes? flags for languages? > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu May 23 16:58:27 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 21:58:27 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 23/05/13 20:30, Martin Holmes wrote: > I was with you until "flags for languages". :-) Really? I was about to suggest the same thing! > > I have a couple of ideas about making the headings look more sectional. > The icons came only in that size (16 x 16), but I can look around for > some larger ones if necessary, or re-create them (they're > Creative-Commons-attribution). They need to be bigger, definitely I only have two (minor) grumbles 1. The text immediately above the double line ("P5: Guidelines for Electronic Text Encoding and Interchange/ Version 2.3.0. Last updated on 17th January 2013.") seems to be all over the place margin-wise. Maybe it should be centred? Or flush right so as not to interfere with the search box? At the moment it looks very messy. 2. Could we perhaps get two levels of open/close menu effect in the toc? at the moment if you open up the core chapter to see all the sections, you see them all down to the lowest level. Could we not just open the first hierarchic level? I don't think the columns should be in boxes. Quite enough lines on this page already. From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu May 23 18:41:46 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 15:41:46 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <519E9B2A.5090004@uvic.ca> On 13-05-23 01:58 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 23/05/13 20:30, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I was with you until "flags for languages". :-) > > Really? I was about to suggest the same thing! I don't like the idea that languages are associated with national entities. It's only a rough match at best. Are you going to include flags of every French-speaking country for the French one, for instance? Or insult some French-speaking countries by leaving them out? >> I have a couple of ideas about making the headings look more sectional. >> The icons came only in that size (16 x 16), but I can look around for >> some larger ones if necessary, or re-create them (they're >> Creative-Commons-attribution). > > They need to be bigger, definitely I'll create new ones based on the originals then. > I only have two (minor) grumbles > > 1. The text immediately above the double line ("P5: Guidelines for > Electronic Text Encoding and Interchange/ Version 2.3.0. Last updated on > 17th January 2013.") seems to be all over the place margin-wise. Maybe > it should be centred? Or flush right so as not to interfere with the > search box? At the moment it looks very messy. I haven't changed that bit at all: but I agree, it needs fixing. Will do. > > 2. Could we perhaps get two levels of open/close menu effect in the toc? > at the moment if you open up the core chapter to see all the sections, > you see them all down to the lowest level. Could we not just open the > first hierarchic level? I guess so, if everybody thinks it's a good idea. I just lifted the actual index lists from the existing page. I think personally I like it as it is -- go to the chapter, or inspect the chapter, rather than click over and over again to drill down. > I don't think the columns should be in boxes. Quite enough lines on this > page already. Agreed. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu May 23 18:45:07 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 22:45:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <519E9B2A.5090004@uvic.ca> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519E9B2A.5090004@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A31A5F9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 23 May 2013, at 23:41, Martin Holmes wrote: > > I don't like the idea that languages are associated with national > entities. It's only a rough match at best. Are you going to include > flags of every French-speaking country for the French one, for instance? > Or insult some French-speaking countries by leaving them out? its a pretty well-understood convention, isnt it, that the flag of France means French? people do get offended by strange stuff >> 2. Could we perhaps get two levels of open/close menu effect in the toc? >> at the moment if you open up the core chapter to see all the sections, >> you see them all down to the lowest level. Could we not just open the >> first hierarchic level? > > I guess so, if everybody thinks it's a good idea. I just lifted the > actual index lists from the existing page. I think personally I like it > as it is -- go to the chapter, or inspect the chapter, rather than click > over and over again to drill down. I forget what JS does this. if its easier, I mildly agree with Lou. If its at all hard, leave as is for now -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu May 23 19:35:20 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 19:35:20 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A31A5F9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519E9B2A.5090004@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A31A5F9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <519EA7B8.2040604@ultraslavonic.info> On 5/23/13 6:45 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 23 May 2013, at 23:41, Martin Holmes > wrote: > >> >> I don't like the idea that languages are associated with national >> entities. It's only a rough match at best. Are you going to include >> flags of every French-speaking country for the French one, for instance? >> Or insult some French-speaking countries by leaving them out? > > its a pretty well-understood convention, isnt it, that the flag of France means French? > people do get offended by strange stuff It's also a convention to use "1" for male and "2" for female, but it doesn't mean we should do it. Our use of flags would eventually get picked up by http://dhpoco.org/ and cause a fuss in our community, which is attuned to questions of the problems of national identity. Just imagine the outrage if we use an American flag for English! This reminds me that I recently encountered http://www.cwrc.ca/ , which has the curious practice of using a Canadian flag for English and a French flag for French. You'd think they would have used a UK and a French flag, or maybe a Canadian flag and a Quebec flag, or better yet avoided using flags entirely. From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu May 23 20:56:41 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 17:56:41 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <519EA7B8.2040604@ultraslavonic.info> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519E9B2A.5090004@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A31A5F9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519EA7B8.2040604@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <519EBAC9.4020408@uvic.ca> On 13-05-23 04:35 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > This reminds me that I recently encountered http://www.cwrc.ca/ , which > has the curious practice of using a Canadian flag for English and a > French flag for French. You'd think they would have used a UK and a > French flag, or maybe a Canadian flag and a Quebec flag, or better yet > avoided using flags entirely. That's astonishing. I've never seen that before. They're funded at least partially by central government funds, too, so it seems even weirder. I've actually written to ask them, I'm so curious. Cheers, Martin From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Fri May 24 11:17:48 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 11:17:48 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Calling Becky, Elli, Syd and Paul In-Reply-To: <519BA468.7030706@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> <51965187.4050900@uvic.ca> <519BA468.7030706@uvic.ca> Message-ID: OK, I've annotated the ticket. Looks like my prefs are those that Martin went for in his new mockup. I really like it, much easier to see everything, and uses space on the page better. --elli On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > Hi there, > > Any chance you could post your preferences on this ticket in the next > day or two? > > > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-05-17 08:49 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> So far we've had responses from Kevin, Lou, James, Gaby, Brett, David >> and me. I've summarized these on the ticket: >> >> >> >> So, Becky, Elli, Sebastian, Syd, Paul and Hugh: could you respond either >> by email or by adding your initials to the ticket in the relevant places? >> >> Once we have a consensus, I'll create a second mockup incorporating >> those decisions and some of the other suggestions, and we'll see how we >> feel about that. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-05-16 06:22 AM, David Sewell wrote: >>> On Thu, 16 May 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> >>>> 1. Do we want two columns however wide your screen is, or do we want >>>> three columns collapsing to two if there's not enough room for them? >>> >>> Three collapsing to two. >>> >>>> 2. Do we want to keep Some Popular Sections? >>> >>> Ideally, I think the Guidelines should instead have a simple guide to >>> organization along the lines of O'Reilly books (cf. the preface to the >>> DocBook guide at http://oreilly.com/openbook/docbook/book/ch00.html). >>> But in the meantime, SPS is the next best thing, so keep for now. >>> >>>> 3. Do we want to include the alternative output formats (PDF, ePub, >>>> Mobi) as list elements like the rest of the TOC (as in my mockup), or as >>>> links in a horizontal list across the top (as in Kevin's)? >>> >>> No preference. >>> >> > > -- > Martin Holmes > University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre > (mholmes at uvic.ca) > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri May 24 12:31:50 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 09:31:50 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Calling Becky, Elli, Syd and Paul In-Reply-To: References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> <51965187.4050900@uvic.ca> <519BA468.7030706@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <519F95F6.9070209@uvic.ca> Thanks Elli! I've just made more minor improvements based on the feedback: The PDF, ePub and MOBI icons are now bigger (32 x 32); actually I've created my own in SVG, so we can have them in any size, and 48 x 48 and 64 x 64 are already in the folder if we prefer them. I've also tweaked the CSS so the right-aligned heading paragraph has the same padding-right as the h1 above it (and I've committed that to SVN in guidelines.css as well, so it'll ripple through the whole site, when Jinks has built everything). If everyone is OK with this, I'll start the process of implementing the mockup in the actual build process. I have one quick question: The e-book-icons I've created really need a license.txt document to go with them. I've created the document and put it with the icons in their own folder: To keep the icons with their license.txt, I propose putting them in the repo here: P5/webnav/icons/e-book-icons which would presumably mean the build process would copy them to en/html/Images/icons/e-book-icons Does that make sense to everyone? Cheers, Martin On 13-05-24 08:17 AM, Mylonas, Elli wrote: > OK, I've annotated the ticket. Looks like my prefs are those that > Martin went for in his new mockup. > I really like it, much easier to see everything, and uses space on the > page better. > --elli > > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Hi there, >> >> Any chance you could post your preferences on this ticket in the next >> day or two? >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-05-17 08:49 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> So far we've had responses from Kevin, Lou, James, Gaby, Brett, David >>> and me. I've summarized these on the ticket: >>> >>> >>> >>> So, Becky, Elli, Sebastian, Syd, Paul and Hugh: could you respond either >>> by email or by adding your initials to the ticket in the relevant places? >>> >>> Once we have a consensus, I'll create a second mockup incorporating >>> those decisions and some of the other suggestions, and we'll see how we >>> feel about that. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-05-16 06:22 AM, David Sewell wrote: >>>> On Thu, 16 May 2013, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> >>>>> 1. Do we want two columns however wide your screen is, or do we want >>>>> three columns collapsing to two if there's not enough room for them? >>>> >>>> Three collapsing to two. >>>> >>>>> 2. Do we want to keep Some Popular Sections? >>>> >>>> Ideally, I think the Guidelines should instead have a simple guide to >>>> organization along the lines of O'Reilly books (cf. the preface to the >>>> DocBook guide at http://oreilly.com/openbook/docbook/book/ch00.html). >>>> But in the meantime, SPS is the next best thing, so keep for now. >>>> >>>>> 3. Do we want to include the alternative output formats (PDF, ePub, >>>>> Mobi) as list elements like the rest of the TOC (as in my mockup), or as >>>>> links in a horizontal list across the top (as in Kevin's)? >>>> >>>> No preference. >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> Martin Holmes >> University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre >> (mholmes at uvic.ca) >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > . > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Sat May 25 07:36:14 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 12:36:14 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <519EBAC9.4020408@uvic.ca> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519E9B2A.5090004@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A31A5F9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519EA7B8.2040604@ultraslavonic.info> <519EBAC9.4020408@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51A0A22E.6050705@it.ox.ac.uk> Things that occur to me: 1) Responsiveness: The 3 -> 2 col is fine. If we have it go down to 1 column at a small window size then that might look nice on mobiles? Designers here tend to do 3 sizes in responsive css where there is a 'really wide', normal, and finally 1col/small/mobile where the header simplifies and everything ends up in 1column. That might b e a bit out of scope here though. 2) We have the icons for other formats at the top, but not the bottom, but the different languages in both places... for consistency I'd probably have the icons on the bottom as well. 3) I'd put a background box /colour or rounded border or something around the TEI sourcecode block to indicate it is something different. -James On 24/05/13 01:56, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-05-23 04:35 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > >> This reminds me that I recently encountered http://www.cwrc.ca/ , which >> has the curious practice of using a Canadian flag for English and a >> French flag for French. You'd think they would have used a UK and a >> French flag, or maybe a Canadian flag and a Quebec flag, or better yet >> avoided using flags entirely. > > That's astonishing. I've never seen that before. They're funded at least > partially by central government funds, too, so it seems even weirder. > I've actually written to ask them, I'm so curious. > > Cheers, > Martin > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat May 25 07:44:49 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 11:44:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <51A0A22E.6050705@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519E9B2A.5090004@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A31A5F9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519EA7B8.2040604@ultraslavonic.info> <519EBAC9.4020408@uvic.ca> <51A0A22E.6050705@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <07b0c3c1-a9c2-4ee7-8951-a280b68a606f@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 25 May 2013, at 12:36, James Cummings wrote: > > 2) We have the icons for other formats at the top, but not the > bottom, but the different languages in both places... for > consistency I'd probably have the icons on the bottom as well. > i agree > 3) I'd put a background box /colour or rounded border or > something around the TEI sourcecode block to indicate it is > something different. yes, coloured background for source code panel please -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sat May 25 13:38:16 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 17:38:16 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Calling Becky, Elli, Syd and Paul In-Reply-To: <519F95F6.9070209@uvic.ca> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> <51965187.4050900@uvic.ca> <519BA468.7030706@uvic.ca> <519F95F6.9070209@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A321854@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 24 May 2013, at 17:31, Martin Holmes wrote: > > The e-book-icons I've created really need a license.txt document to go > with them. I've created the document and put it with the icons in their > own folder: > > > > To keep the icons with their license.txt, I propose putting them in the > repo here: > > P5/webnav/icons/e-book-icons > > which would presumably mean the build process would copy them to > > en/html/Images/icons/e-book-icons > makes sense, yes, but i dont think you are quite right there about the /images/ level -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun May 26 07:23:49 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 12:23:49 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Stamps In-Reply-To: <51A1F060.5070001@tge-adonis.fr> References: <51A1F060.5070001@tge-adonis.fr> Message-ID: <51A1F0C5.9050702@retired.ox.ac.uk> I'd like to proceed with my original proposal to modify the content model of to include model.descLike stopping short of the birnbaum-breaking proposal from Syd (also on the ticket) My proposal is : - add model.descLike to the current content model, - add a comment to the existing discussion pointing out that any material not wrapped in or other model.descLike element is assumed to be a transcription of text within the stamp itself. - revise the existing examples and text accordingly https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/450/ I'd like to proceed with this before the next release if no-one has strong objection. My proposal doesn't b reak any existing documents and doesn't preclude a subsequent revision along the lines suggested by Syd. Please react on the ticket! From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sun May 26 14:36:44 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 19:36:44 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [tei:feature-requests] #450 `` should contain ``, not the other way round In-Reply-To:

          References:

          Message-ID: <51A2563C.7050902@retired.ox.ac.uk> I agree that it might be nice to have a new kind of `` which, like `
          ` had element-only content. Bit neither you nor Gabby is addressing the point that this would break all current uses of ``. My proposal is a step in the right direction, in that it at least resolves the current ambiguity, without such a blatant flouting of the principle that we should not break existing documents. I would like to take that step for the next release, leaving the issue open if you wish for further discussion. On 26/05/13 14:23, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > > Gabby's message about was in response to what Lou suggested (which I > have quoted below). I agree with Gabby that it would be nice to fix > this all at once if we could. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *[feature-requests:#450] > || should > contain ||, not the other way round* > > *Status:* open > *Created:* Thu Apr 18, 2013 06:41 PM UTC by Lou Burnard > *Last Updated:* Sun May 26, 2013 01:21 PM UTC > *Owner:* nobody > > There are two examples for the || element: one shows it > containing the text that has been stamped, the other shows it > containing a description of the stamp. It would be good to be able to > distinguish the two cases, since both are equally likely when > recording stamps in general. If this element is used for postmarks or > postage stamps, for example, you might well want to distinguish text > actually forming part of the postmark or appearing on the postage > stamp from a general description of the stamp. However, the content > model says that its content is just macro.phraseSeq, which doesn't > include ||, though it does include all sorts of other largely > irrelevant nonsense. I propose changing it to > (model.phrase|model.gLike|model.descLike)* > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Sent from sourceforge.net because you indicated interest in > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/450/ > > > To unsubscribe from further messages, please visit > https://sourceforge.net/auth/subscriptions/ > > From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon May 27 08:51:21 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 05:51:21 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <51A0A22E.6050705@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519E9B2A.5090004@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A31A5F9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519EA7B8.2040604@ultraslavonic.info> <519EBAC9.4020408@uvic.ca> <51A0A22E.6050705@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51A356C9.6040303@uvic.ca> Hi James, On 13-05-25 04:36 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > > Things that occur to me: > > 1) Responsiveness: The 3 -> 2 col is fine. If we have it go down > to 1 column at a small window size then that might look nice on > mobiles? Designers here tend to do 3 sizes in responsive css > where there is a 'really wide', normal, and finally > 1col/small/mobile where the header simplifies and everything ends > up in 1column. That might b e a bit out of scope here though. I think redesigning the Glines for mobile is a necessary job, and we should open a ticket for it, but it's not really part of this ticket. > > 2) We have the icons for other formats at the top, but not the > bottom, but the different languages in both places... for > consistency I'd probably have the icons on the bottom as well. I thought about that, but I thought this: if you're deciding to look at a different language, it's often in response to something you read on the page and don't quite understand in the language you're looking at; you may be near the top or the bottom of the page when that happens. If you decide to use a different format of the Guidelines like an e-book version, that's not in response to something you read near the bottom of a page; you'd do that because that's what you wanted in the first place when you went to the TOC page. So there's no need for the ebook icons at the bottom. However, it's trivial to add them, so if there's a consensus on this, I'll do that. > 3) I'd put a background box /colour or rounded border or > something around the TEI sourcecode block to indicate it is > something different. The reasons I'm not keen on this are that it will unbalance the look of the page, and that it will actually make the sourcecode items appear to be more important than everything else; as it is, they're the last thing you read, which makes them (to me) seem less prominent. When I work on the output, though, I'll just give that a class to that block so we can play around with highlighting it. Cheers, Martin > -James > > > On 24/05/13 01:56, Martin Holmes wrote: >> On 13-05-23 04:35 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> >>> This reminds me that I recently encountered http://www.cwrc.ca/ , which >>> has the curious practice of using a Canadian flag for English and a >>> French flag for French. You'd think they would have used a UK and a >>> French flag, or maybe a Canadian flag and a Quebec flag, or better yet >>> avoided using flags entirely. >> >> That's astonishing. I've never seen that before. They're funded at least >> partially by central government funds, too, so it seems even weirder. >> I've actually written to ask them, I'm so curious. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> > > From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon May 27 11:36:42 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 08:36:42 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Calling Becky, Elli, Syd and Paul In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A321854@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5192CFF6.6060305@uvic.ca> <5192F844.9050709@ultraslavonic.info> <51932795.2010407@it.ox.ac.uk> <519382BC.4050007@uvic.ca> <5193A894.5060102@ultraslavonic.info> <5193B486.4010308@uvic.ca> <5194C7D0.9050303@uvic.ca> <51965187.4050900@uvic.ca> <519BA468.7030706@uvic.ca> <519F95F6.9070209@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A321854@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51A37D8A.5030206@uvic.ca> On 13-05-25 10:38 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 24 May 2013, at 17:31, Martin Holmes wrote: > >> >> The e-book-icons I've created really need a license.txt document to go >> with them. I've created the document and put it with the icons in their >> own folder: >> >> >> >> To keep the icons with their license.txt, I propose putting them in the >> repo here: >> >> P5/webnav/icons/e-book-icons >> >> which would presumably mean the build process would copy them to >> >> en/html/Images/icons/e-book-icons >> > makes sense, yes, but i dont think you are quite right there about the > /images/ level This is probably one of those things where "try it and see" is quicker than "read the code and figure it out". :-) Cheers, Martin > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Mon May 27 14:31:23 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 19:31:23 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] a nice thank you from melissa Message-ID: <51A3A67B.3050201@retired.ox.ac.uk> See http://melissaterras.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/on-changing-rules-of-digital-humanities.html From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon May 27 14:42:37 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 18:42:37 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] a nice thank you from melissa In-Reply-To: <51A3A67B.3050201@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51A3A67B.3050201@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <7b683fc2-af89-44ac-ba3c-94c185f995b5@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 27 May 2013, at 19:31, Lou Burnard wrote: > See > http://melissaterras.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/on-changing-rules-of-digital-humanities.html that's very nice. a pity she chooses to perpetuate the idea that anyone said or implied "you cant possibly be offended" or "but we've always done it this way", but I suppose its all just rhetoric in a good cause. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon May 27 15:12:47 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 12:12:47 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] a nice thank you from melissa In-Reply-To: <51A3A67B.3050201@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51A3A67B.3050201@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51A3B02F.4010705@uvic.ca> That's very nicely done, and I'm particularly pleased that she takes the opportunity to link to the bug report and explain how the reporting process can lead to change. Cheers, Martin On 13-05-27 11:31 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > See > http://melissaterras.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/on-changing-rules-of-digital-humanities.html > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu May 30 09:04:15 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 13:04:15 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] pureodd Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A348BF3@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> you'l see I announced the work on what is now called "Pure ODD" on TEI-L, being the work I have been doing to implement Lou's "foxglove" proposals. Bascially, it flies, though there is much left to do and test. apologies for not warning you in advance, but this was my last chance to do something before the end of May. the language implemented here is basically what Lou proposed last year. It will likely need changes before its complete. I am hoping that my more literate colleague will be able to do much more in the way of documentation -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu May 30 10:31:37 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 10:31:37 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] "global" @source [was Re: Fwd: RE: @resp] In-Reply-To: <510D6B82.4060109@kcl.ac.uk> References: <02dc01ce0124$fc59b130$f50d1390$@ijs.si> <510CEEA6.2040006@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510D47CE.7050802@uvic.ca> <510D5A89.1020502@kcl.ac.uk> <510D6585.9070900@it.ox.ac.uk> <510D6B82.4060109@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51A762C9.60209@kcl.ac.uk> I don't think there's a ticket for this yet (please correct me if I've missed it) but this question (of making @source (a) available more widely than just on quote, egXML, etc., and (b) expanding its semantics to the source of a piece of information, datum, translation, encoding rather than just a quotation) is intimately tied up with https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/443/ (on making @resp more widely available). As I understand and remember it, we had gotten as far as agreeing that both @resp and @source would usefully be more widely available than they currently are. (We would probably also agree that neither of these should be technically global attributes.) But how do we go forward to a decision somewhere in between the two extremes? I think the way forward is to collect (in a ticket? in a wiki page? in emails to the list/to me?) specific and documented use-cases of elements which we need to be able to attribute to a particular encoder, or whose content we need to attribute to a bibliographical source somewhere. From these examples, we should try to come up with a coherent proposal for the extension of both of these attributes. Does this seem reasonable? Does anyone else want to collate this information? Any preference as to where/how we do this? (Do we need a new ticket alongside FR 443, or should we have both conversations together in there?) Gabby On 02/02/2013 14:39, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Surely the definition of @source only contains the word "quotation" > because it was designed for , , etc. If we consider it a > suitable mechanism for indicating the bibliographic source of a set of > dimensions, for example, then that definition would have to change. > > [Aside: when marking up apparatus criticus, I use @resp to point to > bibiographical references for readings and conjectures, not to persons. > Does this mean @source would be more appropriate for this use?] > > G > > On 02/02/2013 19:14, James Cummings wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I can see att.responsibility being made available more generally >> (I'm very reluctant to say globally until I've really sat down >> and thought about the implications of that...) I understand it >> may have once(?) been intended for editorial intrusions into a >> transcription or edition but believe we've generalised out such >> indications to refer to any markup or encoding. Maybe it was >> always intended as such. >> >> I can see arguments for @source (which is where this started >> right?) on more things and that att.editLike should get it from >> the att.source class. But, I think we have to be careful that it >> is available only on things which can be classified as containing >> a 'quotation or citation' in some way since it "provides a >> pointer to the bibliographical source from which a quotation or >> citation is drawn." Either that, or this definition would have >> to be changed. >> >> Why does egXML get @source and not eg incidentally? >> >> -James >> >> >> >> On 02/02/13 18:27, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> Seconded. >>> >>> I (as I pointed out in another venue recently) am regularly surprised to >>> re-learn that @resp isn't global already. I can't imagine any element >>> that I would not want to be able to say either who is responsible for >>> the decisions it represents, or from what publication the information so >>> tagged comes. (Certainly everything in msDesc, as well as editLike, at >>> the very least.) >>> >>> G >>> >>> On 02/02/2013 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> On 13-02-02 02:47 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>>>> Tomaz has a good point here. Presumably att.editLike should inherit the >>>>> @source attribute from att.sourced ? >>>>> >>>>> I am waiting for someone to want @source to be added to att.global... >>>> >>>> And that would be me. I can imagine a use-case for virtually any >>>> element. I'd also like @resp to be global, incidentally -- same >>>> argument. I need to assign responsibility for , , and >>>> all sorts of other bits and pieces in a dictionary project I'm working on. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>> Subject: RE: @resp >>>>> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:09:19 +0100 >>>>> From: Tomaz Erjavec >>>>> To: 'Lou Burnard' >>>>> CC: >>>>> >>>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> @source is the only attribute defined in the att.source class (with >>>>> quote q writing egXML as members). >>>>> But @source is also defined (directly, not via class) as an attribute of >>>>> att.editLike, so in fact quite a lot of other elements already have it. >>>>> Is there any particular reason that it is defined in two different >>>>> places? I'd say it only confuses things. >>>>> And, yes, it would probably be a good idea to have source on even more >>>>> elements, e.g. person and all its descendants. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Toma? >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> >>> >> >> > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu May 30 10:42:53 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 15:42:53 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] "global" @source [was Re: Fwd: RE: @resp] In-Reply-To: <51A762C9.60209@kcl.ac.uk> References: <02dc01ce0124$fc59b130$f50d1390$@ijs.si> <510CEEA6.2040006@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510D47CE.7050802@uvic.ca> <510D5A89.1020502@kcl.ac.uk> <510D6585.9070900@it.ox.ac.uk> <510D6B82.4060109@kcl.ac.uk> <51A762C9.60209@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51A7656D.20404@it.ox.ac.uk> On 30/05/13 15:31, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > I don't think there's a ticket for this yet (please correct me if I've > missed it) but this question (of making @source (a) available more > widely than just on quote, egXML, etc., and (b) expanding its semantics > to the source of a piece of information, datum, translation, encoding > rather than just a quotation) is intimately tied up with > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/443/ (on making @resp > more widely available). > > As I understand and remember it, we had gotten as far as agreeing that > both @resp and @source would usefully be more widely available than they > currently are. (We would probably also agree that neither of these > should be technically global attributes.) But how do we go forward to a > decision somewhere in between the two extremes? Yes, I seem to remember specifically quite some resistance to the idea that either of these be truly made global. > I think the way forward is to collect (in a ticket? in a wiki page? in > emails to the list/to me?) specific and documented use-cases of elements > which we need to be able to attribute to a particular encoder, or whose > content we need to attribute to a bibliographical source somewhere. From > these examples, we should try to come up with a coherent proposal for > the extension of both of these attributes. I've not personally got any use-cases to hand where I've felt I needed this, but agree with some of the arguments for extending it more widely. I'm really not sure how to implement that sensibly or where to draw the line in this case. -James > > Does this seem reasonable? Does anyone else want to collate this > information? Any preference as to where/how we do this? (Do we need a > new ticket alongside FR 443, or should we have both conversations > together in there?) > > Gabby > > On 02/02/2013 14:39, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> Surely the definition of @source only contains the word "quotation" >> because it was designed for , , etc. If we consider it a >> suitable mechanism for indicating the bibliographic source of a set of >> dimensions, for example, then that definition would have to change. >> >> [Aside: when marking up apparatus criticus, I use @resp to point to >> bibiographical references for readings and conjectures, not to persons. >> Does this mean @source would be more appropriate for this use?] >> >> G >> >> On 02/02/2013 19:14, James Cummings wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I can see att.responsibility being made available more generally >>> (I'm very reluctant to say globally until I've really sat down >>> and thought about the implications of that...) I understand it >>> may have once(?) been intended for editorial intrusions into a >>> transcription or edition but believe we've generalised out such >>> indications to refer to any markup or encoding. Maybe it was >>> always intended as such. >>> >>> I can see arguments for @source (which is where this started >>> right?) on more things and that att.editLike should get it from >>> the att.source class. But, I think we have to be careful that it >>> is available only on things which can be classified as containing >>> a 'quotation or citation' in some way since it "provides a >>> pointer to the bibliographical source from which a quotation or >>> citation is drawn." Either that, or this definition would have >>> to be changed. >>> >>> Why does egXML get @source and not eg incidentally? >>> >>> -James >>> >>> >>> >>> On 02/02/13 18:27, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>> Seconded. >>>> >>>> I (as I pointed out in another venue recently) am regularly surprised to >>>> re-learn that @resp isn't global already. I can't imagine any element >>>> that I would not want to be able to say either who is responsible for >>>> the decisions it represents, or from what publication the information so >>>> tagged comes. (Certainly everything in msDesc, as well as editLike, at >>>> the very least.) >>>> >>>> G >>>> >>>> On 02/02/2013 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>> On 13-02-02 02:47 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>>>>> Tomaz has a good point here. Presumably att.editLike should inherit the >>>>>> @source attribute from att.sourced ? >>>>>> >>>>>> I am waiting for someone to want @source to be added to att.global... >>>>> >>>>> And that would be me. I can imagine a use-case for virtually any >>>>> element. I'd also like @resp to be global, incidentally -- same >>>>> argument. I need to assign responsibility for , , and >>>>> all sorts of other bits and pieces in a dictionary project I'm working on. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>>> Subject: RE: @resp >>>>>> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:09:19 +0100 >>>>>> From: Tomaz Erjavec >>>>>> To: 'Lou Burnard' >>>>>> CC: >>>>>> >>>>>> ... >>>>>> >>>>>> @source is the only attribute defined in the att.source class (with >>>>>> quote q writing egXML as members). >>>>>> But @source is also defined (directly, not via class) as an attribute of >>>>>> att.editLike, so in fact quite a lot of other elements already have it. >>>>>> Is there any particular reason that it is defined in two different >>>>>> places? I'd say it only confuses things. >>>>>> And, yes, it would probably be a good idea to have source on even more >>>>>> elements, e.g. person and all its descendants. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Toma? >>>>>> >>>>>> - >>>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu May 30 12:15:44 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 09:15:44 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] "global" @source [was Re: Fwd: RE: @resp] In-Reply-To: <51A7656D.20404@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <02dc01ce0124$fc59b130$f50d1390$@ijs.si> <510CEEA6.2040006@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510D47CE.7050802@uvic.ca> <510D5A89.1020502@kcl.ac.uk> <510D6585.9070900@it.ox.ac.uk> <510D6B82.4060109@kcl.ac.uk> <51A762C9.60209@kcl.ac.uk> <51A7656D.20404@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51A77B30.6060801@uvic.ca> I have an open ticket on @resp: which I haven't had time to proceed with. I do have it in hand, though. Cheers, Martin On 13-05-30 07:42 AM, James Cummings wrote: > On 30/05/13 15:31, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> I don't think there's a ticket for this yet (please correct me if I've >> missed it) but this question (of making @source (a) available more >> widely than just on quote, egXML, etc., and (b) expanding its semantics >> to the source of a piece of information, datum, translation, encoding >> rather than just a quotation) is intimately tied up with >> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/443/ (on making @resp >> more widely available). >> >> As I understand and remember it, we had gotten as far as agreeing that >> both @resp and @source would usefully be more widely available than they >> currently are. (We would probably also agree that neither of these >> should be technically global attributes.) But how do we go forward to a >> decision somewhere in between the two extremes? > > Yes, I seem to remember specifically quite some resistance to the > idea that either of these be truly made global. > >> I think the way forward is to collect (in a ticket? in a wiki page? in >> emails to the list/to me?) specific and documented use-cases of elements >> which we need to be able to attribute to a particular encoder, or whose >> content we need to attribute to a bibliographical source somewhere. From >> these examples, we should try to come up with a coherent proposal for >> the extension of both of these attributes. > > I've not personally got any use-cases to hand where I've felt I > needed this, but agree with some of the arguments for extending > it more widely. I'm really not sure how to implement that > sensibly or where to draw the line in this case. > > -James > >> >> Does this seem reasonable? Does anyone else want to collate this >> information? Any preference as to where/how we do this? (Do we need a >> new ticket alongside FR 443, or should we have both conversations >> together in there?) >> >> Gabby >> >> On 02/02/2013 14:39, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> Surely the definition of @source only contains the word "quotation" >>> because it was designed for , , etc. If we consider it a >>> suitable mechanism for indicating the bibliographic source of a set of >>> dimensions, for example, then that definition would have to change. >>> >>> [Aside: when marking up apparatus criticus, I use @resp to point to >>> bibiographical references for readings and conjectures, not to persons. >>> Does this mean @source would be more appropriate for this use?] >>> >>> G >>> >>> On 02/02/2013 19:14, James Cummings wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I can see att.responsibility being made available more generally >>>> (I'm very reluctant to say globally until I've really sat down >>>> and thought about the implications of that...) I understand it >>>> may have once(?) been intended for editorial intrusions into a >>>> transcription or edition but believe we've generalised out such >>>> indications to refer to any markup or encoding. Maybe it was >>>> always intended as such. >>>> >>>> I can see arguments for @source (which is where this started >>>> right?) on more things and that att.editLike should get it from >>>> the att.source class. But, I think we have to be careful that it >>>> is available only on things which can be classified as containing >>>> a 'quotation or citation' in some way since it "provides a >>>> pointer to the bibliographical source from which a quotation or >>>> citation is drawn." Either that, or this definition would have >>>> to be changed. >>>> >>>> Why does egXML get @source and not eg incidentally? >>>> >>>> -James >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 02/02/13 18:27, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>> Seconded. >>>>> >>>>> I (as I pointed out in another venue recently) am regularly surprised to >>>>> re-learn that @resp isn't global already. I can't imagine any element >>>>> that I would not want to be able to say either who is responsible for >>>>> the decisions it represents, or from what publication the information so >>>>> tagged comes. (Certainly everything in msDesc, as well as editLike, at >>>>> the very least.) >>>>> >>>>> G >>>>> >>>>> On 02/02/2013 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>>> On 13-02-02 02:47 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>>>>>> Tomaz has a good point here. Presumably att.editLike should inherit the >>>>>>> @source attribute from att.sourced ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am waiting for someone to want @source to be added to att.global... >>>>>> >>>>>> And that would be me. I can imagine a use-case for virtually any >>>>>> element. I'd also like @resp to be global, incidentally -- same >>>>>> argument. I need to assign responsibility for , , and >>>>>> all sorts of other bits and pieces in a dictionary project I'm working on. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> Martin >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>>>> Subject: RE: @resp >>>>>>> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:09:19 +0100 >>>>>>> From: Tomaz Erjavec >>>>>>> To: 'Lou Burnard' >>>>>>> CC: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> @source is the only attribute defined in the att.source class (with >>>>>>> quote q writing egXML as members). >>>>>>> But @source is also defined (directly, not via class) as an attribute of >>>>>>> att.editLike, so in fact quite a lot of other elements already have it. >>>>>>> Is there any particular reason that it is defined in two different >>>>>>> places? I'd say it only confuses things. >>>>>>> And, yes, it would probably be a good idea to have source on even more >>>>>>> elements, e.g. person and all its descendants. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Toma? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu May 30 12:48:35 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 09:48:35 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <51A356C9.6040303@uvic.ca> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519E9B2A.5090004@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A31A5F9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519EA7B8.2040604@ultraslavonic.info> <519EBAC9.4020408@uvic.ca> <51A0A22E.6050705@it.ox.ac.uk> <51A356C9.6040303@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51A782E3.2040409@uvic.ca> I'm beginning the implementation of this. Before I wade into the XSLT, I want to check that everyone's on board with the changes I propose to make. Currently there are: index.html (the pointless semi-toc we want to get rid of) index_toc.html (the actual toc) I'm going to change this to: index.html (full new toc) index_toc.html (simply a redirect for those with obsolete bookmarks) Guidelines pages currently have two links: Home (->index.html, caption tei:i18n('homeWord')) Table of Contents (->index_toc.html, caption tei:i18n('tocWords')) I propose replacing this with a single link, that incorporates both captions, which would look like this in English: Home/Table of Contents Any objections? Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu May 30 12:58:05 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 12:58:05 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] "global" @source [was Re: Fwd: RE: @resp] In-Reply-To: <51A77B30.6060801@uvic.ca> References: <02dc01ce0124$fc59b130$f50d1390$@ijs.si> <510CEEA6.2040006@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510D47CE.7050802@uvic.ca> <510D5A89.1020502@kcl.ac.uk> <510D6585.9070900@it.ox.ac.uk> <510D6B82.4060109@kcl.ac.uk> <51A762C9.60209@kcl.ac.uk> <51A7656D.20404@it.ox.ac.uk> <51A77B30.6060801@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51A7851D.1050605@kcl.ac.uk> So when you say you have this in hand, you mean you intend to come up with a full proposal for which new elements/classes you would like @resp to be available on? Should we discuss @source separately, or in parallel? G On 30/05/2013 12:15, Martin Holmes wrote: > I have an open ticket on @resp: > > > > which I haven't had time to proceed with. I do have it in hand, though. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-05-30 07:42 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> On 30/05/13 15:31, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> I don't think there's a ticket for this yet (please correct me if I've >>> missed it) but this question (of making @source (a) available more >>> widely than just on quote, egXML, etc., and (b) expanding its semantics >>> to the source of a piece of information, datum, translation, encoding >>> rather than just a quotation) is intimately tied up with >>> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/443/ (on making @resp >>> more widely available). >>> >>> As I understand and remember it, we had gotten as far as agreeing that >>> both @resp and @source would usefully be more widely available than they >>> currently are. (We would probably also agree that neither of these >>> should be technically global attributes.) But how do we go forward to a >>> decision somewhere in between the two extremes? >> >> Yes, I seem to remember specifically quite some resistance to the >> idea that either of these be truly made global. >> >>> I think the way forward is to collect (in a ticket? in a wiki page? in >>> emails to the list/to me?) specific and documented use-cases of elements >>> which we need to be able to attribute to a particular encoder, or whose >>> content we need to attribute to a bibliographical source somewhere. From >>> these examples, we should try to come up with a coherent proposal for >>> the extension of both of these attributes. >> >> I've not personally got any use-cases to hand where I've felt I >> needed this, but agree with some of the arguments for extending >> it more widely. I'm really not sure how to implement that >> sensibly or where to draw the line in this case. >> >> -James >> >>> >>> Does this seem reasonable? Does anyone else want to collate this >>> information? Any preference as to where/how we do this? (Do we need a >>> new ticket alongside FR 443, or should we have both conversations >>> together in there?) >>> >>> Gabby >>> >>> On 02/02/2013 14:39, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>> Surely the definition of @source only contains the word "quotation" >>>> because it was designed for , , etc. If we consider it a >>>> suitable mechanism for indicating the bibliographic source of a set of >>>> dimensions, for example, then that definition would have to change. >>>> >>>> [Aside: when marking up apparatus criticus, I use @resp to point to >>>> bibiographical references for readings and conjectures, not to persons. >>>> Does this mean @source would be more appropriate for this use?] >>>> >>>> G >>>> >>>> On 02/02/2013 19:14, James Cummings wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I can see att.responsibility being made available more generally >>>>> (I'm very reluctant to say globally until I've really sat down >>>>> and thought about the implications of that...) I understand it >>>>> may have once(?) been intended for editorial intrusions into a >>>>> transcription or edition but believe we've generalised out such >>>>> indications to refer to any markup or encoding. Maybe it was >>>>> always intended as such. >>>>> >>>>> I can see arguments for @source (which is where this started >>>>> right?) on more things and that att.editLike should get it from >>>>> the att.source class. But, I think we have to be careful that it >>>>> is available only on things which can be classified as containing >>>>> a 'quotation or citation' in some way since it "provides a >>>>> pointer to the bibliographical source from which a quotation or >>>>> citation is drawn." Either that, or this definition would have >>>>> to be changed. >>>>> >>>>> Why does egXML get @source and not eg incidentally? >>>>> >>>>> -James >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 02/02/13 18:27, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>>> Seconded. >>>>>> >>>>>> I (as I pointed out in another venue recently) am regularly surprised to >>>>>> re-learn that @resp isn't global already. I can't imagine any element >>>>>> that I would not want to be able to say either who is responsible for >>>>>> the decisions it represents, or from what publication the information so >>>>>> tagged comes. (Certainly everything in msDesc, as well as editLike, at >>>>>> the very least.) >>>>>> >>>>>> G >>>>>> >>>>>> On 02/02/2013 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>>>> On 13-02-02 02:47 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>>>>>>> Tomaz has a good point here. Presumably att.editLike should inherit the >>>>>>>> @source attribute from att.sourced ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am waiting for someone to want @source to be added to att.global... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And that would be me. I can imagine a use-case for virtually any >>>>>>> element. I'd also like @resp to be global, incidentally -- same >>>>>>> argument. I need to assign responsibility for , , and >>>>>>> all sorts of other bits and pieces in a dictionary project I'm working on. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>>>>> Subject: RE: @resp >>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:09:19 +0100 >>>>>>>> From: Tomaz Erjavec >>>>>>>> To: 'Lou Burnard' >>>>>>>> CC: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> @source is the only attribute defined in the att.source class (with >>>>>>>> quote q writing egXML as members). >>>>>>>> But @source is also defined (directly, not via class) as an attribute of >>>>>>>> att.editLike, so in fact quite a lot of other elements already have it. >>>>>>>> Is there any particular reason that it is defined in two different >>>>>>>> places? I'd say it only confuses things. >>>>>>>> And, yes, it would probably be a good idea to have source on even more >>>>>>>> elements, e.g. person and all its descendants. >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Toma? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu May 30 13:12:47 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 10:12:47 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] "global" @source [was Re: Fwd: RE: @resp] In-Reply-To: <51A7851D.1050605@kcl.ac.uk> References: <02dc01ce0124$fc59b130$f50d1390$@ijs.si> <510CEEA6.2040006@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510D47CE.7050802@uvic.ca> <510D5A89.1020502@kcl.ac.uk> <510D6585.9070900@it.ox.ac.uk> <510D6B82.4060109@kcl.ac.uk> <51A762C9.60209@kcl.ac.uk> <51A7656D.20404@it.ox.ac.uk> <51A77B30.6060801@uvic.ca> <51A7851D.1050605@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51A7888F.9020707@uvic.ca> On 13-05-30 09:58 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > So when you say you have this in hand, you mean you intend to come up > with a full proposal for which new elements/classes you would like @resp > to be available on? I was tasked with adding some use-cases from a variety of contexts supporting my contention that @resp ought to be available in lots of places. Personally, I still think it's simpler and cleaner to add it to att.global, but there is substantial resistance to that, so I guess we're going to end up with a list of classes or elements that meet the use-cases. I think att.sourced is a similar case; at the moment, it's only available on quote q writing egXML, but I can see arguments that it should be much more widely available too. Your final comment on the ticket suggests that it's @source that you need, rather than @resp. I think the arguments tend to go in parallel for these two attributes; for instance: (Fred is responsible for attesting to this pronunciation) (The biblio item "lass" is the source of this pronunciation) So I think we should broaden the ticket and handle both together. We're talking about _attribution_ of two different kinds; perhaps there's an argument for att.attribution or some such thing. Cheers, Martin > > Should we discuss @source separately, or in parallel? > > G > > On 30/05/2013 12:15, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I have an open ticket on @resp: >> >> >> >> which I haven't had time to proceed with. I do have it in hand, though. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-05-30 07:42 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>> On 30/05/13 15:31, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>> I don't think there's a ticket for this yet (please correct me if I've >>>> missed it) but this question (of making @source (a) available more >>>> widely than just on quote, egXML, etc., and (b) expanding its semantics >>>> to the source of a piece of information, datum, translation, encoding >>>> rather than just a quotation) is intimately tied up with >>>> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/443/ (on making @resp >>>> more widely available). >>>> >>>> As I understand and remember it, we had gotten as far as agreeing that >>>> both @resp and @source would usefully be more widely available than they >>>> currently are. (We would probably also agree that neither of these >>>> should be technically global attributes.) But how do we go forward to a >>>> decision somewhere in between the two extremes? >>> >>> Yes, I seem to remember specifically quite some resistance to the >>> idea that either of these be truly made global. >>> >>>> I think the way forward is to collect (in a ticket? in a wiki page? in >>>> emails to the list/to me?) specific and documented use-cases of elements >>>> which we need to be able to attribute to a particular encoder, or whose >>>> content we need to attribute to a bibliographical source somewhere. From >>>> these examples, we should try to come up with a coherent proposal for >>>> the extension of both of these attributes. >>> >>> I've not personally got any use-cases to hand where I've felt I >>> needed this, but agree with some of the arguments for extending >>> it more widely. I'm really not sure how to implement that >>> sensibly or where to draw the line in this case. >>> >>> -James >>> >>>> >>>> Does this seem reasonable? Does anyone else want to collate this >>>> information? Any preference as to where/how we do this? (Do we need a >>>> new ticket alongside FR 443, or should we have both conversations >>>> together in there?) >>>> >>>> Gabby >>>> >>>> On 02/02/2013 14:39, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>> Surely the definition of @source only contains the word "quotation" >>>>> because it was designed for , , etc. If we consider it a >>>>> suitable mechanism for indicating the bibliographic source of a set of >>>>> dimensions, for example, then that definition would have to change. >>>>> >>>>> [Aside: when marking up apparatus criticus, I use @resp to point to >>>>> bibiographical references for readings and conjectures, not to persons. >>>>> Does this mean @source would be more appropriate for this use?] >>>>> >>>>> G >>>>> >>>>> On 02/02/2013 19:14, James Cummings wrote: >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I can see att.responsibility being made available more generally >>>>>> (I'm very reluctant to say globally until I've really sat down >>>>>> and thought about the implications of that...) I understand it >>>>>> may have once(?) been intended for editorial intrusions into a >>>>>> transcription or edition but believe we've generalised out such >>>>>> indications to refer to any markup or encoding. Maybe it was >>>>>> always intended as such. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can see arguments for @source (which is where this started >>>>>> right?) on more things and that att.editLike should get it from >>>>>> the att.source class. But, I think we have to be careful that it >>>>>> is available only on things which can be classified as containing >>>>>> a 'quotation or citation' in some way since it "provides a >>>>>> pointer to the bibliographical source from which a quotation or >>>>>> citation is drawn." Either that, or this definition would have >>>>>> to be changed. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why does egXML get @source and not eg incidentally? >>>>>> >>>>>> -James >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 02/02/13 18:27, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>>>> Seconded. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I (as I pointed out in another venue recently) am regularly surprised to >>>>>>> re-learn that @resp isn't global already. I can't imagine any element >>>>>>> that I would not want to be able to say either who is responsible for >>>>>>> the decisions it represents, or from what publication the information so >>>>>>> tagged comes. (Certainly everything in msDesc, as well as editLike, at >>>>>>> the very least.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> G >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 02/02/2013 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>>>>> On 13-02-02 02:47 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>>>>>>>> Tomaz has a good point here. Presumably att.editLike should inherit the >>>>>>>>> @source attribute from att.sourced ? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am waiting for someone to want @source to be added to att.global... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And that would be me. I can imagine a use-case for virtually any >>>>>>>> element. I'd also like @resp to be global, incidentally -- same >>>>>>>> argument. I need to assign responsibility for , , and >>>>>>>> all sorts of other bits and pieces in a dictionary project I'm working on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: @resp >>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:09:19 +0100 >>>>>>>>> From: Tomaz Erjavec >>>>>>>>> To: 'Lou Burnard' >>>>>>>>> CC: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> @source is the only attribute defined in the att.source class (with >>>>>>>>> quote q writing egXML as members). >>>>>>>>> But @source is also defined (directly, not via class) as an attribute of >>>>>>>>> att.editLike, so in fact quite a lot of other elements already have it. >>>>>>>>> Is there any particular reason that it is defined in two different >>>>>>>>> places? I'd say it only confuses things. >>>>>>>>> And, yes, it would probably be a good idea to have source on even more >>>>>>>>> elements, e.g. person and all its descendants. >>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>> Toma? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu May 30 13:21:57 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 13:21:57 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] "global" @source [was Re: Fwd: RE: @resp] In-Reply-To: <51A7888F.9020707@uvic.ca> References: <02dc01ce0124$fc59b130$f50d1390$@ijs.si> <510CEEA6.2040006@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510D47CE.7050802@uvic.ca> <510D5A89.1020502@kcl.ac.uk> <510D6585.9070900@it.ox.ac.uk> <510D6B82.4060109@kcl.ac.uk> <51A762C9.60209@kcl.ac.uk> <51A7656D.20404@it.ox.ac.uk> <51A77B30.6060801@uvic.ca> <51A7851D.1050605@kcl.ac.uk> <51A7888F.9020707@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51A78AB5.1080506@kcl.ac.uk> I tend to agree. Shall we find a temporary space to collect use-cases and see if we can collate them into coherent groups? I have a bunch of people outside council who have specific use-cases for @source, and we should look at these alongside yours. G On 30/05/2013 13:12, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-05-30 09:58 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> So when you say you have this in hand, you mean you intend to come up >> with a full proposal for which new elements/classes you would like @resp >> to be available on? > > I was tasked with adding some use-cases from a variety of contexts > supporting my contention that @resp ought to be available in lots of > places. Personally, I still think it's simpler and cleaner to add it to > att.global, but there is substantial resistance to that, so I guess > we're going to end up with a list of classes or elements that meet the > use-cases. I think att.sourced is a similar case; at the moment, it's > only available on quote q writing egXML, but I can see arguments that it > should be much more widely available too. Your final comment on the > ticket suggests that it's @source that you need, rather than @resp. I > think the arguments tend to go in parallel for these two attributes; for > instance: > > (Fred is responsible for attesting to this > pronunciation) > > (The biblio item "lass" is the source of this > pronunciation) > > So I think we should broaden the ticket and handle both together. We're > talking about _attribution_ of two different kinds; perhaps there's an > argument for att.attribution or some such thing. > > Cheers, > Martin > >> >> Should we discuss @source separately, or in parallel? >> >> G >> >> On 30/05/2013 12:15, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> I have an open ticket on @resp: >>> >>> >>> >>> which I haven't had time to proceed with. I do have it in hand, though. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-05-30 07:42 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>>> On 30/05/13 15:31, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>> I don't think there's a ticket for this yet (please correct me if I've >>>>> missed it) but this question (of making @source (a) available more >>>>> widely than just on quote, egXML, etc., and (b) expanding its semantics >>>>> to the source of a piece of information, datum, translation, encoding >>>>> rather than just a quotation) is intimately tied up with >>>>> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/443/ (on making @resp >>>>> more widely available). >>>>> >>>>> As I understand and remember it, we had gotten as far as agreeing that >>>>> both @resp and @source would usefully be more widely available than they >>>>> currently are. (We would probably also agree that neither of these >>>>> should be technically global attributes.) But how do we go forward to a >>>>> decision somewhere in between the two extremes? >>>> >>>> Yes, I seem to remember specifically quite some resistance to the >>>> idea that either of these be truly made global. >>>> >>>>> I think the way forward is to collect (in a ticket? in a wiki page? in >>>>> emails to the list/to me?) specific and documented use-cases of elements >>>>> which we need to be able to attribute to a particular encoder, or whose >>>>> content we need to attribute to a bibliographical source somewhere. From >>>>> these examples, we should try to come up with a coherent proposal for >>>>> the extension of both of these attributes. >>>> >>>> I've not personally got any use-cases to hand where I've felt I >>>> needed this, but agree with some of the arguments for extending >>>> it more widely. I'm really not sure how to implement that >>>> sensibly or where to draw the line in this case. >>>> >>>> -James >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Does this seem reasonable? Does anyone else want to collate this >>>>> information? Any preference as to where/how we do this? (Do we need a >>>>> new ticket alongside FR 443, or should we have both conversations >>>>> together in there?) >>>>> >>>>> Gabby >>>>> >>>>> On 02/02/2013 14:39, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>>> Surely the definition of @source only contains the word "quotation" >>>>>> because it was designed for , , etc. If we consider it a >>>>>> suitable mechanism for indicating the bibliographic source of a set of >>>>>> dimensions, for example, then that definition would have to change. >>>>>> >>>>>> [Aside: when marking up apparatus criticus, I use @resp to point to >>>>>> bibiographical references for readings and conjectures, not to persons. >>>>>> Does this mean @source would be more appropriate for this use?] >>>>>> >>>>>> G >>>>>> >>>>>> On 02/02/2013 19:14, James Cummings wrote: >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can see att.responsibility being made available more generally >>>>>>> (I'm very reluctant to say globally until I've really sat down >>>>>>> and thought about the implications of that...) I understand it >>>>>>> may have once(?) been intended for editorial intrusions into a >>>>>>> transcription or edition but believe we've generalised out such >>>>>>> indications to refer to any markup or encoding. Maybe it was >>>>>>> always intended as such. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I can see arguments for @source (which is where this started >>>>>>> right?) on more things and that att.editLike should get it from >>>>>>> the att.source class. But, I think we have to be careful that it >>>>>>> is available only on things which can be classified as containing >>>>>>> a 'quotation or citation' in some way since it "provides a >>>>>>> pointer to the bibliographical source from which a quotation or >>>>>>> citation is drawn." Either that, or this definition would have >>>>>>> to be changed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why does egXML get @source and not eg incidentally? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -James >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 02/02/13 18:27, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>>>>> Seconded. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I (as I pointed out in another venue recently) am regularly surprised to >>>>>>>> re-learn that @resp isn't global already. I can't imagine any element >>>>>>>> that I would not want to be able to say either who is responsible for >>>>>>>> the decisions it represents, or from what publication the information so >>>>>>>> tagged comes. (Certainly everything in msDesc, as well as editLike, at >>>>>>>> the very least.) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> G >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 02/02/2013 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 13-02-02 02:47 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Tomaz has a good point here. Presumably att.editLike should inherit the >>>>>>>>>> @source attribute from att.sourced ? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I am waiting for someone to want @source to be added to att.global... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And that would be me. I can imagine a use-case for virtually any >>>>>>>>> element. I'd also like @resp to be global, incidentally -- same >>>>>>>>> argument. I need to assign responsibility for , , and >>>>>>>>> all sorts of other bits and pieces in a dictionary project I'm working on. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: @resp >>>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:09:19 +0100 >>>>>>>>>> From: Tomaz Erjavec >>>>>>>>>> To: 'Lou Burnard' >>>>>>>>>> CC: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> @source is the only attribute defined in the att.source class (with >>>>>>>>>> quote q writing egXML as members). >>>>>>>>>> But @source is also defined (directly, not via class) as an attribute of >>>>>>>>>> att.editLike, so in fact quite a lot of other elements already have it. >>>>>>>>>> Is there any particular reason that it is defined in two different >>>>>>>>>> places? I'd say it only confuses things. >>>>>>>>>> And, yes, it would probably be a good idea to have source on even more >>>>>>>>>> elements, e.g. person and all its descendants. >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> Toma? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu May 30 13:48:25 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 10:48:25 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] "global" @source [was Re: Fwd: RE: @resp] In-Reply-To: <51A78AB5.1080506@kcl.ac.uk> References: <02dc01ce0124$fc59b130$f50d1390$@ijs.si> <510CEEA6.2040006@retired.ox.ac.uk> <510D47CE.7050802@uvic.ca> <510D5A89.1020502@kcl.ac.uk> <510D6585.9070900@it.ox.ac.uk> <510D6B82.4060109@kcl.ac.uk> <51A762C9.60209@kcl.ac.uk> <51A7656D.20404@it.ox.ac.uk> <51A77B30.6060801@uvic.ca> <51A7851D.1050605@kcl.ac.uk> <51A7888F.9020707@uvic.ca> <51A78AB5.1080506@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51A790E9.6060701@uvic.ca> I think we should post them on the ticket as we gather them, and then organize them in a later posting. We're less likely to lose track of them that way. Cheers, Martin On 13-05-30 10:21 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > I tend to agree. Shall we find a temporary space to collect use-cases > and see if we can collate them into coherent groups? I have a bunch of > people outside council who have specific use-cases for @source, and we > should look at these alongside yours. > > G > > On 30/05/2013 13:12, Martin Holmes wrote: >> On 13-05-30 09:58 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> So when you say you have this in hand, you mean you intend to come up >>> with a full proposal for which new elements/classes you would like @resp >>> to be available on? >> >> I was tasked with adding some use-cases from a variety of contexts >> supporting my contention that @resp ought to be available in lots of >> places. Personally, I still think it's simpler and cleaner to add it to >> att.global, but there is substantial resistance to that, so I guess >> we're going to end up with a list of classes or elements that meet the >> use-cases. I think att.sourced is a similar case; at the moment, it's >> only available on quote q writing egXML, but I can see arguments that it >> should be much more widely available too. Your final comment on the >> ticket suggests that it's @source that you need, rather than @resp. I >> think the arguments tend to go in parallel for these two attributes; for >> instance: >> >> (Fred is responsible for attesting to this >> pronunciation) >> >> (The biblio item "lass" is the source of this >> pronunciation) >> >> So I think we should broaden the ticket and handle both together. We're >> talking about _attribution_ of two different kinds; perhaps there's an >> argument for att.attribution or some such thing. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >>> >>> Should we discuss @source separately, or in parallel? >>> >>> G >>> >>> On 30/05/2013 12:15, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> I have an open ticket on @resp: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> which I haven't had time to proceed with. I do have it in hand, though. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On 13-05-30 07:42 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>>>> On 30/05/13 15:31, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>>> I don't think there's a ticket for this yet (please correct me if I've >>>>>> missed it) but this question (of making @source (a) available more >>>>>> widely than just on quote, egXML, etc., and (b) expanding its semantics >>>>>> to the source of a piece of information, datum, translation, encoding >>>>>> rather than just a quotation) is intimately tied up with >>>>>> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/443/ (on making @resp >>>>>> more widely available). >>>>>> >>>>>> As I understand and remember it, we had gotten as far as agreeing that >>>>>> both @resp and @source would usefully be more widely available than they >>>>>> currently are. (We would probably also agree that neither of these >>>>>> should be technically global attributes.) But how do we go forward to a >>>>>> decision somewhere in between the two extremes? >>>>> >>>>> Yes, I seem to remember specifically quite some resistance to the >>>>> idea that either of these be truly made global. >>>>> >>>>>> I think the way forward is to collect (in a ticket? in a wiki page? in >>>>>> emails to the list/to me?) specific and documented use-cases of elements >>>>>> which we need to be able to attribute to a particular encoder, or whose >>>>>> content we need to attribute to a bibliographical source somewhere. From >>>>>> these examples, we should try to come up with a coherent proposal for >>>>>> the extension of both of these attributes. >>>>> >>>>> I've not personally got any use-cases to hand where I've felt I >>>>> needed this, but agree with some of the arguments for extending >>>>> it more widely. I'm really not sure how to implement that >>>>> sensibly or where to draw the line in this case. >>>>> >>>>> -James >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Does this seem reasonable? Does anyone else want to collate this >>>>>> information? Any preference as to where/how we do this? (Do we need a >>>>>> new ticket alongside FR 443, or should we have both conversations >>>>>> together in there?) >>>>>> >>>>>> Gabby >>>>>> >>>>>> On 02/02/2013 14:39, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>>>> Surely the definition of @source only contains the word "quotation" >>>>>>> because it was designed for , , etc. If we consider it a >>>>>>> suitable mechanism for indicating the bibliographic source of a set of >>>>>>> dimensions, for example, then that definition would have to change. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> [Aside: when marking up apparatus criticus, I use @resp to point to >>>>>>> bibiographical references for readings and conjectures, not to persons. >>>>>>> Does this mean @source would be more appropriate for this use?] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> G >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 02/02/2013 19:14, James Cummings wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I can see att.responsibility being made available more generally >>>>>>>> (I'm very reluctant to say globally until I've really sat down >>>>>>>> and thought about the implications of that...) I understand it >>>>>>>> may have once(?) been intended for editorial intrusions into a >>>>>>>> transcription or edition but believe we've generalised out such >>>>>>>> indications to refer to any markup or encoding. Maybe it was >>>>>>>> always intended as such. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I can see arguments for @source (which is where this started >>>>>>>> right?) on more things and that att.editLike should get it from >>>>>>>> the att.source class. But, I think we have to be careful that it >>>>>>>> is available only on things which can be classified as containing >>>>>>>> a 'quotation or citation' in some way since it "provides a >>>>>>>> pointer to the bibliographical source from which a quotation or >>>>>>>> citation is drawn." Either that, or this definition would have >>>>>>>> to be changed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why does egXML get @source and not eg incidentally? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -James >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 02/02/13 18:27, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>>>>>> Seconded. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I (as I pointed out in another venue recently) am regularly surprised to >>>>>>>>> re-learn that @resp isn't global already. I can't imagine any element >>>>>>>>> that I would not want to be able to say either who is responsible for >>>>>>>>> the decisions it represents, or from what publication the information so >>>>>>>>> tagged comes. (Certainly everything in msDesc, as well as editLike, at >>>>>>>>> the very least.) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> G >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 02/02/2013 17:07, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 13-02-02 02:47 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Tomaz has a good point here. Presumably att.editLike should inherit the >>>>>>>>>>> @source attribute from att.sourced ? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am waiting for someone to want @source to be added to att.global... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> And that would be me. I can imagine a use-case for virtually any >>>>>>>>>> element. I'd also like @resp to be global, incidentally -- same >>>>>>>>>> argument. I need to assign responsibility for , , and >>>>>>>>>> all sorts of other bits and pieces in a dictionary project I'm working on. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>> Martin >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message -------- >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: @resp >>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 10:09:19 +0100 >>>>>>>>>>> From: Tomaz Erjavec >>>>>>>>>>> To: 'Lou Burnard' >>>>>>>>>>> CC: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> @source is the only attribute defined in the att.source class (with >>>>>>>>>>> quote q writing egXML as members). >>>>>>>>>>> But @source is also defined (directly, not via class) as an attribute of >>>>>>>>>>> att.editLike, so in fact quite a lot of other elements already have it. >>>>>>>>>>> Is there any particular reason that it is defined in two different >>>>>>>>>>> places? I'd say it only confuses things. >>>>>>>>>>> And, yes, it would probably be a good idea to have source on even more >>>>>>>>>>> elements, e.g. person and all its descendants. >>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>> Toma? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu May 30 15:51:12 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 19:51:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <51A782E3.2040409@uvic.ca> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519E9B2A.5090004@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A31A5F9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519EA7B8.2040604@ultraslavonic.info> <519EBAC9.4020408@uvic.ca> <51A0A22E.6050705@it.ox.ac.uk> <51A356C9.6040303@uvic.ca> <51A782E3.2040409@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A34BC17@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> > > > I propose replacing this with a single link, that incorporates both > captions, which would look like this in English: > > Home/Table of Contents > > > Any objections? No. but I'd ask for review of the translations. I would not assume that "X/Y" fits all languages. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu May 30 17:17:40 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 14:17:40 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A34BC17@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519E9B2A.5090004@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A31A5F9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519EA7B8.2040604@ultraslavonic.info> <519EBAC9.4020408@uvic.ca> <51A0A22E.6050705@it.ox.ac.uk> <51A356C9.6040303@uvic.ca> <51A782E3.2040409@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A34BC17@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51A7C1F4.7010905@uvic.ca> On 13-05-30 12:51 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> >> I propose replacing this with a single link, that incorporates both >> captions, which would look like this in English: >> >> Home/Table of Contents >> >> >> Any objections? > > > > No. but I'd ask for review of the translations. I would not assume that "X/Y" fits > all languages. That's true. In that case, perhaps just "Table of Contents" would be better? Cheers, Martin > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu May 30 17:27:04 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 17:27:04 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <51A7C1F4.7010905@uvic.ca> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519E9B2A.5090004@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A31A5F9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519EA7B8.2040604@ultraslavonic.info> <519EBAC9.4020408@uvic.ca> <51A0A22E.6050705@it.ox.ac.uk> <51A356C9.6040303@uvic.ca> <51A782E3.2040409@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A34BC17@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51A7C1F4.7010905@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51A7C428.4020009@ultraslavonic.info> On 5/30/13 5:17 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-05-30 12:51 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> >>> >>> I propose replacing this with a single link, that incorporates both >>> captions, which would look like this in English: >>> >>> Home/Table of Contents >>> >>> >>> Any objections? >> >> >> >> No. but I'd ask for review of the translations. I would not assume that "X/Y" fits >> all languages. > > > That's true. In that case, perhaps just "Table of Contents" would be better? We're talking about the box that appears variously in "float left" and "float right" positions in the HTML of various chapters, right? Right now it says: Home | Table of contents and so Martin suggests combining these into a single link (the text of which we are deciding on). I prefer "Table of contents" or "Table of Contents" because we always use the term "chapters" of the Guidelines, even in cross-references within the Guidelines. However, let me note that at the top of the HTML for each chapte, there's a light blue box that's flush left which has a bold "Table of contents" label at the top. It's already misleading that this is only a TOC for that chapter, not the book as you would normally assume, and it's also misleading that this is different from what the TOC link below it points to. So whatever solution we agree to for Martin's question should be addressed in the context of this other, similar label. K. From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu May 30 17:34:50 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 14:34:50 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines TOC page again In-Reply-To: <51A7C428.4020009@ultraslavonic.info> References: <519E5E8B.2020004@uvic.ca> <519E6A17.4060504@kcl.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A319475@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519E6E39.4090505@uvic.ca> <519E82F3.30409@retired.ox.ac.uk> <519E9B2A.5090004@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A31A5F9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <519EA7B8.2040604@ultraslavonic.info> <519EBAC9.4020408@uvic.ca> <51A0A22E.6050705@it.ox.ac.uk> <51A356C9.6040303@uvic.ca> <51A782E3.2040409@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A34BC17@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51A7C1F4.7010905@uvic.ca> <51A7C428.4020009@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51A7C5FA.7090809@uvic.ca> You're right about the potential confusion there, but the header "Table of contents" isn't a link, and is followed by numerically-identified section headings. I'm inclined to worry about that minor detail after I've managed to figure out how the XSLT interacts with the Makefile -- there seems to be some Perl in there... Cheers, Martin On 13-05-30 02:27 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 5/30/13 5:17 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> On 13-05-30 12:51 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I propose replacing this with a single link, that incorporates both >>>> captions, which would look like this in English: >>>> >>>> Home/Table of Contents >>>> >>>> >>>> Any objections? >>> >>> >>> >>> No. but I'd ask for review of the translations. I would not assume that "X/Y" fits >>> all languages. >> >> >> That's true. In that case, perhaps just "Table of Contents" would be better? > > We're talking about the box that appears variously in "float left" and > "float right" positions in the HTML of various chapters, right? > > Right now it says: > > Home | Table of contents > > and so Martin suggests combining these into a single link (the text of > which we are deciding on). > > I prefer "Table of contents" or "Table of Contents" because we always > use the term "chapters" of the Guidelines, even in cross-references > within the Guidelines. > > However, let me note that at the top of the HTML for each chapte, > there's a light blue box that's flush left which has a bold "Table of > contents" label at the top. It's already misleading that this is only a > TOC for that chapter, not the book as you would normally assume, and > it's also misleading that this is different from what the TOC link below > it points to. So whatever solution we agree to for Martin's question > should be addressed in the context of this other, similar label. > > K. > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Jun 3 14:03:44 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 11:03:44 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Changes to Guidelines TOC Message-ID: <51ACDA80.2000907@uvic.ca> I've started committing some changes relating to the reworking of the Guidelines TOC. This will take me a little while and go in stages, since this is a very busy week or two. It's likely that some things in the Jenkins output will be broken or look broken over the next little while, so please bear with me. Cheers, Martin From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 3 17:06:17 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2013 21:06:17 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] sourceDoc as child of teiCorpus Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A35F65C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> any interest in supoorting https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/456/ ? I'm following the system that if 2 or 3 folks support a ticket over the course of a week, and no-one is against, that one just makes the change. Is there disagreement with the principle? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Jun 4 04:43:25 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2013 09:43:25 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike Message-ID: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> Looking at an unrelated ticket, I have just noticed that (along with the deprecated which it replaces) is a member of model.biblLike. Can someone please remind me why? It's not remotely bibliographic, and it will look very odd in most places where other members of the class appear e.g. inside a From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jun 4 06:00:57 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2013 11:00:57 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] sourceDoc as child of teiCorpus In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A35F65C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A35F65C@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51ADBAD9.4000805@it.ox.ac.uk> On 03/06/13 22:06, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > any interest in supoorting https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/456/ ? I support it and have said so on the ticket. > > I'm following the system that if 2 or 3 folks support a ticket over the course > of a week, and no-one is against, that one just makes the change. Is there disagreement > with the principle? I do not disagree with that principle. We've been operating on a sort of honour system that if deep-down you know that the change is fundamental/significant/problematic that you'll draw Council's attention to it a few times and maybe wait a bit longer. But in general if everyone on the ticket agrees it is unproblematic, Council has been notified, and a reasonable length of time has gone by, that is assumed to be an automatic green light to implement. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jun 4 11:19:05 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 08:19:05 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> From its first introduction (which I think you did), has always been a member of model.biblLike: This was by analogy with , which it was replacing. was added to model.biblLike at rev 9707 by Sebastian: r9707 | rahtz | 2011-11-09 03:46:08 -0800 (Wed, 09 Nov 2011) | 1 line make take @key/@ref (att.canonical) and put in model.biblLike. TEI FR 3309894 refers That's now FR 310: and it was done "so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull could contain elements without needing to wrap these elements in ." Cheers, Martin On 13-06-04 01:43 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > Looking at an unrelated ticket, I have just noticed that > (along with the deprecated which it replaces) is a member > of model.biblLike. > Can someone please remind me why? It's not remotely bibliographic, and > it will look very odd in most places where other members of the class > appear e.g. inside a > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jun 4 11:22:24 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 08:22:24 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> Now I read this, it doesn't make sense to me: "so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull could contain elements without needing to wrap these elements in ." I wonder if things got confused on that ticket, and the wrong action was taken? This seems to be an argument for including in model.biblPart. Cheers, Martin On 13-06-04 08:19 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > From its first introduction (which I think you did), has > always been a member of model.biblLike: > > > > This was by analogy with , which it was replacing. > was added to model.biblLike at rev 9707 by Sebastian: > > r9707 | rahtz | 2011-11-09 03:46:08 -0800 (Wed, 09 Nov 2011) | 1 line > > make take @key/@ref (att.canonical) and put in > model.biblLike. TEI FR 3309894 refers > > > That's now FR 310: > > > > and it was done "so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull could contain > elements without needing to wrap these elements in > ." > > Cheers, > Martin > > > > On 13-06-04 01:43 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> Looking at an unrelated ticket, I have just noticed that >> (along with the deprecated which it replaces) is a member >> of model.biblLike. >> Can someone please remind me why? It's not remotely bibliographic, and >> it will look very odd in most places where other members of the class >> appear e.g. inside a >> >> > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Jun 4 13:17:55 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2013 18:17:55 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> It's not an argument in my book! I am still waiting to learn what's the justification for making or members of model.biblLike. On 04/06/13 16:22, Martin Holmes wrote: > Now I read this, it doesn't make sense to me: > > "so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull could contain > elements without needing to wrap these elements in > ." > > I wonder if things got confused on that ticket, and the wrong action was > taken? This seems to be an argument for including in > model.biblPart. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-06-04 08:19 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> From its first introduction (which I think you did), has >> always been a member of model.biblLike: >> >> >> >> This was by analogy with , which it was replacing. >> was added to model.biblLike at rev 9707 by Sebastian: >> >> r9707 | rahtz | 2011-11-09 03:46:08 -0800 (Wed, 09 Nov 2011) | 1 line >> >> make take @key/@ref (att.canonical) and put in >> model.biblLike. TEI FR 3309894 refers >> >> >> That's now FR 310: >> >> >> >> and it was done "so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull could contain >> elements without needing to wrap these elements in >> ." >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> >> >> On 13-06-04 01:43 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>> Looking at an unrelated ticket, I have just noticed that >>> (along with the deprecated which it replaces) is a member >>> of model.biblLike. >>> Can someone please remind me why? It's not remotely bibliographic, and >>> it will look very odd in most places where other members of the class >>> appear e.g. inside a >>> >>> From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jun 4 13:25:05 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 10:25:05 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> I read that ticket through and I'm no wiser. I wonder if someone who worked on the ticket can remember in more detail what the thinking was? On 13-06-04 10:17 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > It's not an argument in my book! > > I am still waiting to learn what's the justification for making > or members of model.biblLike. > > > On 04/06/13 16:22, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Now I read this, it doesn't make sense to me: >> >> "so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull could contain >> elements without needing to wrap these elements in >> ." >> >> I wonder if things got confused on that ticket, and the wrong action was >> taken? This seems to be an argument for including in >> model.biblPart. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-06-04 08:19 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> From its first introduction (which I think you did), has >>> always been a member of model.biblLike: >>> >>> >>> >>> This was by analogy with , which it was replacing. >>> was added to model.biblLike at rev 9707 by Sebastian: >>> >>> r9707 | rahtz | 2011-11-09 03:46:08 -0800 (Wed, 09 Nov 2011) | 1 line >>> >>> make take @key/@ref (att.canonical) and put in >>> model.biblLike. TEI FR 3309894 refers >>> >>> >>> That's now FR 310: >>> >>> >>> >>> and it was done "so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull could contain >>> elements without needing to wrap these elements in >>> ." >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> >>> >>> On 13-06-04 01:43 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>>> Looking at an unrelated ticket, I have just noticed that >>>> (along with the deprecated which it replaces) is a member >>>> of model.biblLike. >>>> Can someone please remind me why? It's not remotely bibliographic, and >>>> it will look very odd in most places where other members of the class >>>> appear e.g. inside a >>>> >>>> > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jun 4 14:36:27 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 18:36:27 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca>,<51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <001e0aad-0bed-40ca-8e09-ab882299875d@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 4 Jun 2013, at 19:18, "Lou Burnard" wrote: > It's not an argument in my book! Did Sir book the half hour argument, or the full hour? I don't think anyone will remember this. Having relation inside listBibl obv. sensible, but putting in listRelation does seem odd. Still, the ticket says to do it several times. I would err on side of caution and leave alone for the moment. Of all the mad markup you can create which is valid TEI, this is far from maddest. Sebastian From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jun 4 19:08:03 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 16:08:03 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> On 13-06-04 02:50 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > The wording that confuses Martin was likely borrowed from my comment on > the ticket: > > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/310/#6aba > > I'll try rephrasing for clarity: > > "so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull can contain elements > as children without needing to insert a as a child of > bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull and then putting the elements > inside the ." But (for instance) _cannot_ contain , can it? And neither can or . So if that was the intention, whatever was done didn't achieve it. What has been achieved is to allow and to appear wherever et al can appear, which is something completely different. I'm as puzzled as Lou is by it. Sebastian's argument that weirder things pertain elsewhere in the TEI so we should leave well alone surely doesn't hold if this is a simple case of an error in ticket implementation. Cheers, Martin > > --K. > > On 6/4/2013 1:25 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I read that ticket through and I'm no wiser. I wonder if someone who >> worked on the ticket can remember in more detail what the thinking was? >> >> On 13-06-04 10:17 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>> It's not an argument in my book! >>> >>> I am still waiting to learn what's the justification for making >>> or members of model.biblLike. >>> >>> >>> On 04/06/13 16:22, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> Now I read this, it doesn't make sense to me: >>>> >>>> "so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull could contain >>>> elements without needing to wrap these >>>> elements in >>>> ." >>>> >>>> I wonder if things got confused on that ticket, and the wrong action >>>> was >>>> taken? This seems to be an argument for including in >>>> model.biblPart. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On 13-06-04 08:19 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>>> From its first introduction (which I think you >>>>> did), has >>>>> always been a member of model.biblLike: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This was by analogy with, which it was replacing. >>>>> was added to model.biblLike at rev 9707 by Sebastian: >>>>> >>>>> r9707 | rahtz | 2011-11-09 03:46:08 -0800 (Wed, 09 Nov 2011) | 1 line >>>>> >>>>> make take @key/@ref (att.canonical) and >>>>> put in >>>>> model.biblLike. TEI FR 3309894 refers >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> That's now FR 310: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> and it was done "so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull could contain >>>>> elements without needing to wrap these >>>>> elements in >>>>> ." >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> Martin >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 13-06-04 01:43 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>>>>> Looking at an unrelated ticket, I have just noticed >>>>>> that >>>>>> (along with the deprecated which it replaces) is a >>>>>> member >>>>>> of model.biblLike. >>>>>> Can someone please remind me why? It's not remotely bibliographic, >>>>>> and >>>>>> it will look very odd in most places where other members of the class >>>>>> appear e.g. inside a >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> > . > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Tue Jun 4 19:11:33 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2013 19:11:33 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> On 6/4/2013 7:08 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > On 13-06-04 02:50 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> The wording that confuses Martin was likely borrowed from my comment on >> the ticket: >> >> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/310/#6aba >> >> I'll try rephrasing for clarity: >> >> "so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull can contain elements >> as children without needing to insert a as a child of >> bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull and then putting the elements >> inside the." > > But (for instance) _cannot_ contain, can it? And > neither can or. So if that was the intention, > whatever was done didn't achieve it. > > What has been achieved is to allow and to > appear wherever et al can appear, which is something completely > different. I'm as puzzled as Lou is by it. Sebastian's argument that > weirder things pertain elsewhere in the TEI so we should leave well > alone surely doesn't hold if this is a simple case of an error in ticket > implementation. I agree that the ticket was misimplemented. I believe the error crept in based on this summary of the action: https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/310/?limit=10&page=1#b68c and the following comment that was implemented according to that summary. But neither matches what was described at: https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/310/#6aba I realize this went out 1.5 years ago, but I think it's best if we undo it. --Kevin From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Jun 5 03:18:45 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 08:18:45 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> I agree with Kevin that this is all a bit of a mess. The original intention -- provide some way of encoding RDF triples by means of the `` element seems to have got buried. And I have found nothing in the record to explain why it was decided to implement this by changing the members of model.biblLike. It looks suspiciously like a last minute kludge rather than a considered decision. I suggest that Hugh, Sebastian, and other interested parties reconsider the implementation. On 05/06/13 00:11, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 6/4/2013 7:08 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> On 13-06-04 02:50 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> The wording that confuses Martin was likely borrowed from my comment on >>> the ticket: >>> >>> https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/310/#6aba >>> >>> I'll try rephrasing for clarity: >>> >>> "so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull can contain elements >>> as children without needing to insert a as a child of >>> bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull and then putting the elements >>> inside the." >> But (for instance) _cannot_ contain, can it? And >> neither can or. So if that was the intention, >> whatever was done didn't achieve it. >> >> What has been achieved is to allow and to >> appear wherever et al can appear, which is something completely >> different. I'm as puzzled as Lou is by it. Sebastian's argument that >> weirder things pertain elsewhere in the TEI so we should leave well >> alone surely doesn't hold if this is a simple case of an error in ticket >> implementation. > I agree that the ticket was misimplemented. I believe the error crept > in based on this summary of the action: > > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/310/?limit=10&page=1#b68c > > and the following comment that was implemented according to that > summary. But neither matches what was described at: > > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/310/#6aba > > I realize this went out 1.5 years ago, but I think it's best if we undo it. > > --Kevin From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jun 5 04:20:53 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 08:20:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 5 Jun 2013, at 08:18, Lou Burnard wrote: > I agree with Kevin that this is all a bit of a mess. The original > intention -- provide some way of encoding RDF triples by means of the > `` element seems to have got buried. but at least achieved. the only issue is over where and its containers are allowed. > And I have found nothing > in the record to explain why it was decided to implement this by > changing the members of model.biblLike. It looks suspiciously like a > last minute kludge rather than a considered decision. after discussion which went on for 7 months? Lou noted on the ticket on 2011-11-09 "recommendation is to use relationGrp for now since it does the job; add relationGrp to model.biblLike"? That is a note from a Council meeting - see http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm48.xml The record is entirely clear - we decided on November 9th 2011 that " will also be added to model.biblLike." maybe everyone in Paris misunderstood what model.biblLike is, but this is most definitely not a "last minute kludge". -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Wed Jun 5 08:26:46 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 08:26:46 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> On 6/5/13 4:20 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> And I have found nothing >> in the record to explain why it was decided to implement this by >> changing the members of model.biblLike. It looks suspiciously like a >> last minute kludge rather than a considered decision. > > after discussion which went on for 7 months? > > Lou noted on the ticket on 2011-11-09 > "recommendation is to use relationGrp for now since it does the job; add relationGrp to model.biblLike"? > That is a note from a Council meeting - see http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm48.xml > The record is entirely clear - we decided on November 9th 2011 that > " will also be added to model.biblLike." > > maybe everyone in Paris misunderstood what model.biblLike is, but this is most > definitely not a "last minute kludge". I suspect that what we decided in Paris was actually to add as a child of all members of model.biblLike, but this got recorded in the minutes differently. --K. From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Wed Jun 5 10:29:00 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul Schaffner) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 10:29:00 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] email test: ignore In-Reply-To: <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <1370442540.30029.140661240215117.65131414@webmail.messagingengine.com> We're in an email transition today. Want to see if the listserv will recognize my alias. pfs -- Paul Schaffner Digital Library Production Service PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jun 5 10:47:40 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 15:47:40 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] inter-release schema updates Message-ID: <51AF4F8C.4090808@kcl.ac.uk> I've just been helping a newbie with a TEI problem, which turned out to be a schematron error in release 2.3.0. (In att.spanning, sch was testing for @target instead of @spanTo, presumably a copy-n-paste error... I see Sebastian actually fixed this in the source on May 2.) This fix hasn't made its way into public release yet, of course. Two questions arising: * Do we have a date for the next release (2.3.1?) yet? * Is there a way nowadays to use the online Roma to generate a schema from the svn source and/or a local checkout rather than the last released ODD? I guess I could experiment with this, but it might be quicker if someone already knows the answer... (And yes, I do mean the online Roma not Vesta or any other local tool. This is advice I'm going to pass on to the newbie, so keeping it simple.) Thanks, Gabby -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jun 5 11:21:06 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 16:21:06 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] inter-release schema updates In-Reply-To: <51AF4F8C.4090808@kcl.ac.uk> References: <51AF4F8C.4090808@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51AF5762.3080900@it.ox.ac.uk> On 05/06/13 15:47, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Two questions arising: > * Do we have a date for the next release (2.3.1?) yet? At http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/#previous I say 'Early July'. Syd: You were going to get back to me as soon as you could give me a precise day. Any news? > * Is there a way nowadays to use the online Roma to generate a schema > from the svn source and/or a local checkout rather than the last > released ODD? I guess I could experiment with this, but it might be > quicker if someone already knows the answer... Erm, I'm guessing if your schemaSpec/@source can point to a p5subset.xml on jenkins, that would be the way to go. So make an ODD file that says that, then upload it to Roma? Maybe http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/xml/tei/odd/p5subset.xml/*view*/ but I'm not sure if that is really the up-to-date version or the last release's version. It is a good idea. > (And yes, I do mean the online Roma not Vesta or any other local tool. > This is advice I'm going to pass on to the newbie, so keeping it simple.) Not sure that is simple enough. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jun 5 11:21:20 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 15:21:20 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] inter-release schema updates In-Reply-To: <51AF4F8C.4090808@kcl.ac.uk> References: <51AF4F8C.4090808@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3763A6@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 5 Jun 2013, at 15:47, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > > * Is there a way nowadays to use the online Roma to generate a schema > from the svn source and/or a local checkout rather than the last > released ODD? sort of. you can use the @source attribute on to point to eg http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/xml/tei/odd/p5subset.xml and you _should_ get the right result. so the punter would have to download and edit the customisation file, then upload to Roma again (untested?..) -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jun 5 11:22:38 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 15:22:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] inter-release schema updates In-Reply-To: <51AF5762.3080900@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51AF4F8C.4090808@kcl.ac.uk> <51AF5762.3080900@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <78cbfe36-4e59-446a-8f40-6a65dd1ddba6@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 5 Jun 2013, at 16:21, James Cummings wrote: > ODD file that says that, then upload it to Roma? Maybe > http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/xml/tei/odd/p5subset.xml/*view*/ > but I'm not sure if that is really the up-to-date version or the > last release's version. it is from the last successful build. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jun 5 11:23:56 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 16:23:56 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] inter-release schema updates In-Reply-To: <78cbfe36-4e59-446a-8f40-6a65dd1ddba6@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51AF4F8C.4090808@kcl.ac.uk> <51AF5762.3080900@it.ox.ac.uk> <78cbfe36-4e59-446a-8f40-6a65dd1ddba6@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51AF580C.2000609@it.ox.ac.uk> On 05/06/13 16:22, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 5 Jun 2013, at 16:21, James Cummings > wrote: >> ODD file that says that, then upload it to Roma? Maybe >> http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/xml/tei/odd/p5subset.xml/*view*/ >> but I'm not sure if that is really the up-to-date version or the >> last release's version. > > > it is from the last successful build. Yes, what I wasn't 100% confident was whether p5subset.xml was rebuilt on each build or just static until a real release. Good to know. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jun 5 12:44:03 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2013 17:44:03 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] inter-release schema updates In-Reply-To: <51AF580C.2000609@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51AF4F8C.4090808@kcl.ac.uk> <51AF5762.3080900@it.ox.ac.uk> <78cbfe36-4e59-446a-8f40-6a65dd1ddba6@HUB06.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF580C.2000609@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51AF6AD3.5090307@kcl.ac.uk> Thanks, James and Sebastian. I'll try all this out and see how it looks. It might be easy enough for my correspondent. (Of course, they then have to upload it to Oxygen...) On 05/06/2013 16:23, James Cummings wrote: > On 05/06/13 16:22, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> On 5 Jun 2013, at 16:21, James Cummings >> wrote: >>> ODD file that says that, then upload it to Roma? Maybe >>> http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/xml/tei/odd/p5subset.xml/*view*/ >>> but I'm not sure if that is really the up-to-date version or the >>> last release's version. >> >> >> it is from the last successful build. > > Yes, what I wasn't 100% confident was whether p5subset.xml was > rebuilt on each build or just static until a real release. Good > to know. > > -James > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Jun 5 15:51:57 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2013 20:51:57 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] s vs seg, ticket 578 Message-ID: <51AF96DD.40302@retired.ox.ac.uk> The reason we have both and is that an eminent corpus linguist (now sadly deceased) opined very strongly that there should be a TEI element which enabled users to divide a text into smaller units (as is commonly done in many corpora) which did not nest and which tessellated the text completely. That element is . It was pointed out at the time that a more general kind of segment which could self nest and which was not required to tesselate the entire text would also be very useful. That element is . I don't understand why this distinction , which is pretty clearly stated in the Guidelines (see eg http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/AI.html#AILCW) , seems to have become problematic all of a sudden. Do people think the distinction is not useful? Do we want to abolish one or other of these elements? (no point in keeping both if they are to be used in the same way)? Do we want to swop the names over? Obviously is a special case of , so we could remove it, but that seems a bit unkind. From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 6 05:54:24 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 10:54:24 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: s vs seg, ticket 578 In-Reply-To: <51AFD461.9010007@o2.pl> References: <51AFD461.9010007@o2.pl> Message-ID: <51B05C50.1000806@retired.ox.ac.uk> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: s vs seg, ticket 578 Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 00:14:25 +0000 From: Piotr Ba?ski To: Lou Burnard Hi Lou, (and, via Lou, Hi Council) On 06/05/2013 07:51 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > The reason we have both and is that an eminent corpus linguist > (now sadly deceased) opined very strongly that there should be a TEI > element which enabled users to divide a text into smaller units (as is > commonly done in many corpora) which did not nest and which tessellated > the text completely. That element is . Understandable approach, on a span-based view of the text, very useful. It's easy to look at , however, as both a span and a node in the syntactic constituent analysis, and this may be the entry point to the "controversy". > It was pointed out at the time > that a more general kind of segment which could self nest and which was > not required to tesselate the entire text would also be very useful. Sure, though this is more of a constituent-based look, or at least it more readily provokes such a perspective. > That element is . I don't understand why this distinction , which > is pretty clearly stated in the Guidelines (see eg > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/AI.html#AILCW) , > seems to have become > problematic all of a sudden. Isn't it good to realize a problem that has been lurking there for years. My remark concerned seen from a syntactic constituent perspective -- in many cases, you want to make sure that it can be self-nesting: [S [S Jim likes wine ] but [S Jenny prefers beer] ] You don't want this in typical sentence-boundary annotation, where you want elements exhaustively covering the entire text. But when you try to make it perform both duties (it's a bit like with that sketch of a cube where you don't know if the particular corner is sticking out towards you or rather away from you), problems may pop up. > Do people think the distinction is not > useful? Do we want to abolish one or other of these elements? (no point > in keeping both if they are to be used in the same way)? Is this TEI-talk? ;-) vs. , etc., vs. many others. One quick solution seems to abandon the recommendation to use in the syntactic constituency context, but how to do that, other than by cruelly never permitting or, in the very same vein, (see above for an example) .. I don't know. (Because what's above seems an attractive way to quickly annotate syntactic structure, so why not permit it). Maybe conditionally, by saying in one place in the Guidelines that on the span-based perspective, you don't typically want to self-nest, and in the chapter on syntactic structure, by allowing it. Another solution is to bite it outright and allow to self-nest across the board, and to delegate the introduction of a possible ban on self-nesting of to the particular implementer -- a clean customization, wouldn't it be. There is a precedent, from another corpus linguist, in a rather well-tested format: http://www.cs.vassar.edu/CES/dtd2html/cesDoc/s.html Best, P. > Do we want to > swop the names over? Obviously is a special case of , > so we could remove it, but that seems a bit unkind. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sat Jun 8 01:07:28 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 01:07:28 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] s vs seg, ticket 578 In-Reply-To: <51AF96DD.40302@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51AF96DD.40302@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B2BC10.1020200@ultraslavonic.info> Members of tei-council may be wondering where this has become problematic. I invite you to see: http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/578/ which I filed in the course of copyediting an article for the Journal of the Text Encoding Initiative, where the author mentioned being confused about this. --K. On 6/5/13 3:51 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > The reason we have both and is that an eminent corpus linguist > (now sadly deceased) opined very strongly that there should be a TEI > element which enabled users to divide a text into smaller units (as is > commonly done in many corpora) which did not nest and which tessellated > the text completely. That element is . It was pointed out at the time > that a more general kind of segment which could self nest and which was > not required to tesselate the entire text would also be very useful. > That element is . I don't understand why this distinction , which > is pretty clearly stated in the Guidelines (see eg > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/AI.html#AILCW) , > seems to have become > problematic all of a sudden. Do people think the distinction is not > useful? Do we want to abolish one or other of these elements? (no point > in keeping both if they are to be used in the same way)? Do we want to > swop the names over? Obviously is a special case of , > so we could remove it, but that seems a bit unkind. > > > > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Sat Jun 8 06:15:28 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 11:15:28 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] s vs seg, ticket 578 In-Reply-To: <51AFD461.9010007@o2.pl> References: <51AF96DD.40302@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AFD461.9010007@o2.pl> Message-ID: <51B30440.3070003@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 06/06/13 01:14, Piotr Ba?ski wrote: > > It's easy to look at , however, as both a span and a node in the > syntactic constituent analysis, and this may be the entry point to the > "controversy". > Well, that depends on what you mean by "easy". Yes, it is easy if you entirely ignore the three or four times in the Guidelines where it is explicitly pointed out that this is not what it's for, and also if you overlook the existence of which does do this! > Isn't it good to realize a problem that has been lurking there for > years. My remark concerned seen from a syntactic constituent > perspective -- in many cases, you want to make sure that it can be > self-nesting: The lurking problem, if there is one, is that people don't always read what it actually says about how to use these elements... > > [S [S Jim likes wine ] but [S Jenny prefers beer] ] > > You don't want this in typical sentence-boundary annotation, where you > want elements exhaustively covering the entire text. But when you > try to make it perform both duties (it's a bit like with that sketch > of a cube where you don't know if the particular corner is sticking > out towards you or rather away from you), problems may pop up. > But why try to make it do both duties, when there is another element provided exactly so you don't have to? > One quick solution seems to abandon the recommendation to use in > the syntactic constituency context, but how to do that, other than by > cruelly never permitting > > > > or, in the very same vein, > > (see above for an example) > > .. I don't know. (Because what's above seems an attractive way to > quickly annotate syntactic structure, so why not permit it). > Indeed it is. Which is why there is an example showing use of with and in exactly this way! > Maybe conditionally, by saying in one place in the Guidelines that on > the span-based perspective, you don't typically want to self-nest, > and in the chapter on syntactic structure, by allowing it. > I really don't think it would be wise to make the properties of an element chapter-dependent! > Another solution is to bite it outright and allow to self-nest > across the board, and to delegate the introduction of a possible ban > on self-nesting of to the particular implementer -- a clean > customization, wouldn't it be. I stand by my assertion that this is just wrong. It would not be a clean customization because it violates the semantic constraint that is for end-to-end segmentation which (I am getting tired of saying this) is explicitly stated several times in the Guidelines > > There is a precedent, from another corpus linguist, in a rather > well-tested format: > > http://www.cs.vassar.edu/CES/dtd2html/cesDoc/s.html > Don't get me started.... From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sun Jun 9 06:52:18 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 11:52:18 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] s vs seg, ticket 578 In-Reply-To: <51B30440.3070003@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51AF96DD.40302@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AFD461.9010007@o2.pl> <51B30440.3070003@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B45E62.1060303@kcl.ac.uk> I'm inclined to agree with Lou on this: and are pretty clearly distinct in both semantics and content model, and any redefinition would seem only to muddy this clarity, which I've never found confusing (although I've never felt the need to tag sentences, either). A sentence of a special case of an arbitrary segmentation of text, and sentences in normal prose both tessellate and don't nest (except I suppose in quoted speech). On the other hand, I have two small reservations: 1. if a corpus linguist were to tell me that in certain contexts "sentences" (much less "sentence-like divisions"[*]) may nest, I'd have to concede that she knows better than I, and maybe this should be allowed in markup. 2. the fact that and would then have similar models doesn't seem a very major objection, since the same could be said of and : phrases may self-nest (quite rightly), but that doesn't reduce the utility of this element as a semantic specialization of . [* any strained definition of "sentence-like division" wouldn't convince me so much--why not use or propose a new specialised element if it's really something different from a sentence?] Is there a reason, by the way, that is only prevented from self-nesting via a schematron rule, rather than being prohibited in ODD/RNG directly? G On 08/06/2013 11:15, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 06/06/13 01:14, Piotr Ba?ski wrote: >> >> It's easy to look at , however, as both a span and a node in the >> syntactic constituent analysis, and this may be the entry point to the >> "controversy". >> > > Well, that depends on what you mean by "easy". Yes, it is easy if you > entirely ignore the three or four times in the Guidelines where it is > explicitly pointed out that this is not what it's for, and also if you > overlook the existence of which does do this! >> Isn't it good to realize a problem that has been lurking there for >> years. My remark concerned seen from a syntactic constituent >> perspective -- in many cases, you want to make sure that it can be >> self-nesting: > > The lurking problem, if there is one, is that people don't always read > what it actually says about how to use these elements... > >> >> [S [S Jim likes wine ] but [S Jenny prefers beer] ] >> >> You don't want this in typical sentence-boundary annotation, where you >> want elements exhaustively covering the entire text. But when you >> try to make it perform both duties (it's a bit like with that sketch >> of a cube where you don't know if the particular corner is sticking >> out towards you or rather away from you), problems may pop up. >> > > But why try to make it do both duties, when there is another element > provided exactly so you don't have to? > >> One quick solution seems to abandon the recommendation to use in >> the syntactic constituency context, but how to do that, other than by >> cruelly never permitting >> >> >> >> or, in the very same vein, >> >> (see above for an example) >> >> .. I don't know. (Because what's above seems an attractive way to >> quickly annotate syntactic structure, so why not permit it). >> > > Indeed it is. Which is why there is an example showing use of with > and in exactly this way! > > >> Maybe conditionally, by saying in one place in the Guidelines that on >> the span-based perspective, you don't typically want to self-nest, >> and in the chapter on syntactic structure, by allowing it. >> > > I really don't think it would be wise to make the properties of an > element chapter-dependent! >> Another solution is to bite it outright and allow to self-nest >> across the board, and to delegate the introduction of a possible ban >> on self-nesting of to the particular implementer -- a clean >> customization, wouldn't it be. > > I stand by my assertion that this is just wrong. It would not be a clean > customization because it violates the semantic constraint that is > for end-to-end segmentation which (I am getting tired of saying this) is > explicitly stated several times in the Guidelines > >> >> There is a precedent, from another corpus linguist, in a rather >> well-tested format: >> >> http://www.cs.vassar.edu/CES/dtd2html/cesDoc/s.html >> > > Don't get me started.... > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Department of Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jun 9 11:51:34 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 15:51:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] msIdentifier Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3877FA@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> has a Schematron rule which says that just supplying is not enough - there must be some indication of the repository. But the example in 10.10 contradicts that, presumably because it is inside I have added a stanza to the Schematron to reflect this (ie the test starts "not(parent::tei:msPart)") - please shout loudly if you think I misread the prose. Thanks for Matthew for querying this, which led me to realize that the schematron tests were not being applied to the examples in the Guidelines - now corrected, and thereby flinging up a slew of new errors. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Sun Jun 9 12:11:28 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2013 16:11:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] schematron test on causes false? positive Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A387A22@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> we say on that Only one <lem> element may appear within a single apparatus entry, whether it appears outside a <rdgGrp> element or within it. but this example in the Guidelines Experience Experiens Experiment Eximent Eriment[unattested] Eryment fails that test. Would someone who groks this like to consider whether the example is wrong, or the Schematron test incomplete? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 10 12:42:35 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 17:42:35 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Planning next face2face meeting Message-ID: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi all, I'm starting to look at planning our next TEI Council face2face meeting. Oxford had been suggested as the location. This has the fiscal benefits that Lou, Sebastian, James, and Gabby don't need to fly anywhere. ;-) However, of course, if we were just being motivated by saving money then returning to the states (e.g. Ann Arbor) is probably slightly cheaper. There had been the suggestion that it would be beneficial to have it adjacent to the EEBO-TCP meeting coincidentally happening Oxford in September (which is what we did last time). However, I've recently had confirmation that I will be out of the country at this time. Another option suggested in Providence, I believe was for this to be November, I assume with the idea that this is far enough from the TEI Conference for people to have recovered. November would suit me fine. With all that in mind I have the following questions for you all: 1) Do you have a strong preference for Oxford or Ann Arbor; I'm assuming Oxford is better choice this time and seems fairer on this year's elected Americans (in getting a trip to the UK). 2) Do you have a strong preference for timing? I'm leaning to mid-November myself but other than having a massively busy Sept/October I've no other reason. I'll put up a doodle poll eventually to get more precise availability but happy to rule out things in advance. 3) Our last face2face meeting in Oxford was partly at Wolfson College; were those who attended that ok with that as a meeting venue? (We have a good relationship with them since out Digital.Humanities @ Oxford Summer School is there.) I am investigating that as a possibility but can look for other venues if people were dissatisfied with that one. Any thoughts? -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 10 15:08:48 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:08:48 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Planning next face2face meeting In-Reply-To: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: > 1) Do you have a strong preference for Oxford or Ann Arbor; I'm > assuming Oxford is better choice this time and seems fairer on > this year's elected Americans (in getting a trip to the UK). > depends if you think of transatlantic travel as a treat :-} I vote for Oxford, cos we have better biscuits (http://www.tunnock.co.uk/products/teacakes.aspx next time, Brett). I can also volunteer to repeat (albeit not equal) Eli's fine idea of dinner at home for the masses. > 2) Do you have a strong preference for timing? I'm leaning to > mid-November myself ditto. mainly cos of the MM in Rome, I want a gap between things > 3) Our last face2face meeting in Oxford was partly at Wolfson > College; were those who attended that ok with that as a meeting > venue? i would note that they just opened a new venue, a lecture theatre with meeting rooms attached. might do nicely. no punting in November tho, sozza. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Jun 10 17:54:58 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 14:54:58 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron constraint on Message-ID: <51B64B32.7040800@uvic.ca> Hi there, The spec contains a constraint which bans the appearance of two elements within the same ; but one of the examples in the same file does precisely that: Experience Experiens Experiment Eximent Eriment[unattested] Eryment Is this example OK? If so, then the Schematron constraint is wrong; if not, then how should it be fixed? This is the constraint: Only one <lem> element may appear within a single apparatus entry, whether it appears outside a <rdgGrp> element or within it. I'm a bit puzzled as to why this is only throwing an error recently, when the app.xml file was last edited back in April. Cheers, Martin From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Jun 10 18:21:34 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 15:21:34 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron constraint on In-Reply-To: <51B64B32.7040800@uvic.ca> References: <51B64B32.7040800@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51B6516E.2000908@uvic.ca> Even more strange, now I look at it: the constraint is specified for the TEI namespace, but the example is in the Examples namespace. Maybe the example which is triggering the error is elsewhere... On 13-06-10 02:54 PM, Martin Holmes wrote: > Hi there, > > The spec contains a constraint which bans the appearance of two > elements within the same ; but one of the examples in the > same file does precisely that: > > > > > > Experience > Experiens > > > Experiment > Eximent > > > Eriment[unattested] > > Eryment > > > > > > Is this example OK? If so, then the Schematron constraint is wrong; if > not, then how should it be fixed? This is the constraint: > > > > > Only one <lem> element may appear within a single apparatus > entry, whether it appears outside a <rdgGrp> > element or within it. > > > > I'm a bit puzzled as to why this is only throwing an error recently, > when the app.xml file was last edited back in April. > > Cheers, > Martin > From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Jun 10 19:55:12 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 16:55:12 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Planning next face2face meeting In-Reply-To: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B66760.1040308@uvic.ca> I like Wolfson myself. I'm going to be unavailable between September 30-ish and October 20-ish. Somewhere in there will be two weeks of holiday and a couple of things I have to be home for. So I like mid-November too. Cheers, Martin On 13-06-10 09:42 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > Hi all, > > I'm starting to look at planning our next TEI Council face2face > meeting. Oxford had been suggested as the location. This has the > fiscal benefits that Lou, Sebastian, James, and Gabby don't need > to fly anywhere. ;-) However, of course, if we were just being > motivated by saving money then returning to the states (e.g. Ann > Arbor) is probably slightly cheaper. > > There had been the suggestion that it would be beneficial to have > it adjacent to the EEBO-TCP meeting coincidentally happening > Oxford in September (which is what we did last time). However, > I've recently had confirmation that I will be out of the country > at this time. > > Another option suggested in Providence, I believe was for this to > be November, I assume with the idea that this is far enough from > the TEI Conference for people to have recovered. November would > suit me fine. > > With all that in mind I have the following questions for you all: > > 1) Do you have a strong preference for Oxford or Ann Arbor; I'm > assuming Oxford is better choice this time and seems fairer on > this year's elected Americans (in getting a trip to the UK). > > 2) Do you have a strong preference for timing? I'm leaning to > mid-November myself but other than having a massively busy > Sept/October I've no other reason. I'll put up a doodle poll > eventually to get more precise availability but happy to rule out > things in advance. > > 3) Our last face2face meeting in Oxford was partly at Wolfson > College; were those who attended that ok with that as a meeting > venue? (We have a good relationship with them since out > Digital.Humanities @ Oxford Summer School is there.) I am > investigating that as a possibility but can look for other venues > if people were dissatisfied with that one. > > Any thoughts? > > -James > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Mon Jun 10 21:22:06 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 21:22:06 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Planning next face2face meeting In-Reply-To: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B67BBE.4070508@ultraslavonic.info> On 6/10/13 12:42 PM, James Cummings wrote: > 2) Do you have a strong preference for timing? I'm leaning to > mid-November myself but other than having a massively busy > Sept/October I've no other reason. I'll put up a doodle poll > eventually to get more precise availability but happy to rule out > things in advance. September is also not looking very good for me. I'm available Nov. 7-27. > 3) Our last face2face meeting in Oxford was partly at Wolfson > College; were those who attended that ok with that as a meeting > venue? (We have a good relationship with them since out > Digital.Humanities @ Oxford Summer School is there.) I am > investigating that as a possibility but can look for other venues > if people were dissatisfied with that one. Wolfson is fine as long as the Irish woman in the dining hall doesn't scold me again. From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Jun 10 22:56:15 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2013 19:56:15 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Planning next face2face meeting In-Reply-To: <51B67BBE.4070508@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> <51B67BBE.4070508@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51B691CF.8030200@uvic.ca> On 13-06-10 06:22 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Wolfson is fine as long as the Irish woman in the dining hall doesn't > scold me again. You liked it really, I know you did. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jun 11 02:55:20 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 06:55:20 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron constraint on In-Reply-To: <51B64B32.7040800@uvic.ca> References: <51B64B32.7040800@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3915C7@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> i noted this in messages on Saturday, unless I am going mad. 9th June, Subject "schematron test on causes false? positive" see also message with subject of "msIdentifier" which explains why it has only just appeared. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jun 11 06:03:37 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 11:03:37 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Planning next face2face meeting In-Reply-To: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B6F5F9.8010203@kcl.ac.uk> On 2013-06-10 17:42, James Cummings wrote: > 1) Do you have a strong preference for Oxford or Ann Arbor; I'm > assuming Oxford is better choice this time and seems fairer on > this year's elected Americans (in getting a trip to the UK). I prefer Oxford, for the opposite reason to that implied: I don't think I can stand another intercontinental trip in this already busy year! I can also help save a bit of money if someone (e.g. Hugh or Elli or both) don't mind commuting instead of staying at Wolfson or wherever. (Otoh, I could save even more money if we go to the US by Skyping in instead of attending in person. :-) ) > 2) Do you have a strong preference for timing? I'm leaning to > mid-November myself but other than having a massively busy > Sept/October I've no other reason. I'll put up a doodle poll > eventually to get more precise availability but happy to rule out > things in advance. September would be impossible for me, with trips to Bulgaria, Spain and Italy already lined up. Later October or November currently seem fine (although may clash with teaching). > 3) Our last face2face meeting in Oxford was partly at Wolfson > College; were those who attended that ok with that as a meeting > venue? (We have a good relationship with them since out > Digital.Humanities @ Oxford Summer School is there.) I am > investigating that as a possibility but can look for other venues > if people were dissatisfied with that one. As a meeting venue it seemed fine, yes. A bit of a trek from the train station for those of us commuting, but that's not a dealbreaker. (And was an excuse to be lazy and take a cab!) G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Tue Jun 11 08:15:57 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 08:15:57 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Planning next face2face meeting In-Reply-To: <51B6F5F9.8010203@kcl.ac.uk> References: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> <51B6F5F9.8010203@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: I would also be fine with Oxford in November, and thought Wolfson worked just fine as a place to stay and to meet. It may be worth noting that last year, because the EEBO-TCP conference and TEI Council meeting were back to back, the TCP absorbed the cost of Paul's and my airfare. I don't expect we'd be able to do that for the meeting this fall, especially given that we'll be making the same trip in September. I'm free November 10-24, as well as pretty much all of October. Becky On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > On 2013-06-10 17:42, James Cummings wrote: >> 1) Do you have a strong preference for Oxford or Ann Arbor; I'm >> assuming Oxford is better choice this time and seems fairer on >> this year's elected Americans (in getting a trip to the UK). > > I prefer Oxford, for the opposite reason to that implied: I don't think > I can stand another intercontinental trip in this already busy year! I > can also help save a bit of money if someone (e.g. Hugh or Elli or both) > don't mind commuting instead of staying at Wolfson or wherever. (Otoh, I > could save even more money if we go to the US by Skyping in instead of > attending in person. :-) ) > >> 2) Do you have a strong preference for timing? I'm leaning to >> mid-November myself but other than having a massively busy >> Sept/October I've no other reason. I'll put up a doodle poll >> eventually to get more precise availability but happy to rule out >> things in advance. > > September would be impossible for me, with trips to Bulgaria, Spain and > Italy already lined up. Later October or November currently seem fine > (although may clash with teaching). > >> 3) Our last face2face meeting in Oxford was partly at Wolfson >> College; were those who attended that ok with that as a meeting >> venue? (We have a good relationship with them since out >> Digital.Humanities @ Oxford Summer School is there.) I am >> investigating that as a possibility but can look for other venues >> if people were dissatisfied with that one. > > As a meeting venue it seemed fine, yes. A bit of a trek from the train > station for those of us commuting, but that's not a dealbreaker. (And > was an excuse to be lazy and take a cab!) > > G > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > Researcher in Digital Epigraphy > > Digital Humanities > King's College London > Boris Karloff Building > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > > T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jun 11 08:33:20 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 05:33:20 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron constraint on In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3915C7@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51B64B32.7040800@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3915C7@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B71910.1000108@uvic.ca> Sorry, must have completely missed it. I was just skimming my mail because of DHSI. I'll go back and read. Cheers, Martin On 13-06-10 11:55 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > i noted this in messages on Saturday, unless I am going mad. > 9th June, Subject "schematron test on causes false? positive" > > see also message with subject of "msIdentifier" which explains > why it has only just appeared. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From PFSchaffner at umich.edu Tue Jun 11 10:31:54 2013 From: PFSchaffner at umich.edu (Paul Schaffner) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 10:31:54 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Planning next face2face meeting In-Reply-To: References: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> <51B6F5F9.8010203@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1370961114.25026.140661242593461.0FF80768@webmail.messagingengine.com> Ditto to what Becky said. pfs On Tue, Jun 11, 2013, at 8:15, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: > I would also be fine with Oxford in November, and thought Wolfson > worked just fine as a place to stay and to meet. It may be worth > noting that last year, because the EEBO-TCP conference and TEI Council > meeting were back to back, the TCP absorbed the cost of Paul's and my > airfare. I don't expect we'd be able to do that for the meeting this > fall, especially given that we'll be making the same trip in > September. > > I'm free November 10-24, as well as pretty much all of October. > > Becky > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Gabriel Bodard > wrote: > > On 2013-06-10 17:42, James Cummings wrote: > >> 1) Do you have a strong preference for Oxford or Ann Arbor; I'm > >> assuming Oxford is better choice this time and seems fairer on > >> this year's elected Americans (in getting a trip to the UK). > > > > I prefer Oxford, for the opposite reason to that implied: I don't think > > I can stand another intercontinental trip in this already busy year! I > > can also help save a bit of money if someone (e.g. Hugh or Elli or both) > > don't mind commuting instead of staying at Wolfson or wherever. (Otoh, I > > could save even more money if we go to the US by Skyping in instead of > > attending in person. :-) ) > > > >> 2) Do you have a strong preference for timing? I'm leaning to > >> mid-November myself but other than having a massively busy > >> Sept/October I've no other reason. I'll put up a doodle poll > >> eventually to get more precise availability but happy to rule out > >> things in advance. > > > > September would be impossible for me, with trips to Bulgaria, Spain and > > Italy already lined up. Later October or November currently seem fine > > (although may clash with teaching). > > > >> 3) Our last face2face meeting in Oxford was partly at Wolfson > >> College; were those who attended that ok with that as a meeting > >> venue? (We have a good relationship with them since out > >> Digital.Humanities @ Oxford Summer School is there.) I am > >> investigating that as a possibility but can look for other venues > >> if people were dissatisfied with that one. > > > > As a meeting venue it seemed fine, yes. A bit of a trek from the train > > station for those of us commuting, but that's not a dealbreaker. (And > > was an excuse to be lazy and take a cab!) > > > > G > > > > -- > > Dr Gabriel BODARD > > Researcher in Digital Epigraphy > > > > Digital Humanities > > King's College London > > Boris Karloff Building > > 26-29 Drury Lane > > London WC2B 5RL > > > > T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > > E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > > > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > > > > -- > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived -- Paul Schaffner Digital Library Production Service PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jun 11 11:53:27 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 08:53:27 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron constraint on In-Reply-To: <51B71910.1000108@uvic.ca> References: <51B64B32.7040800@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3915C7@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51B71910.1000108@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51B747F7.3000206@uvic.ca> > On 13-06-10 11:55 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> i noted this in messages on Saturday, unless I am going mad. >> 9th June, Subject "schematron test on causes false? positive" Your first message is virtually identical to mine. :-) Gaby still has this ticket open, which is not too far from the topic: He'd be the best person to confirm whether the example with multiple s, each with its own , makes sense. But since the example has been there for ages, so we've been encouraging people to do things that way, I think we should probably remove the Schematron constraint. Cheers, Martin On 13-06-11 05:33 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > Sorry, must have completely missed it. I was just skimming my mail > because of DHSI. I'll go back and read. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-06-10 11:55 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> i noted this in messages on Saturday, unless I am going mad. >> 9th June, Subject "schematron test on causes false? positive" >> >> see also message with subject of "msIdentifier" which explains >> why it has only just appeared. >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jun 11 12:01:41 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 17:01:41 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron constraint on In-Reply-To: <51B747F7.3000206@uvic.ca> References: <51B64B32.7040800@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3915C7@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51B71910.1000108@uvic.ca> <51B747F7.3000206@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51B749E5.70202@kcl.ac.uk> Thanks for the reminder of my outstanding ticket. ::blush:: I have to say I was also a little stumped by the example of an app containing multiple rdgGrps each containing a lem as well as rdg(s). What would that mean? I presume the rdgGrps are in there to group classes of subvariant, but there still needs to be a single lem, doesn't there? (At least if means, as I have always understood it, "That which the current edition privileges [e.g. by printing in the text].") G On 2013-06-11 16:53, Martin Holmes wrote: > > On 13-06-10 11:55 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> i noted this in messages on Saturday, unless I am going mad. > >> 9th June, Subject "schematron test on causes false? positive" > > Your first message is virtually identical to mine. :-) > > Gaby still has this ticket open, which is not too far from the topic: > > > > He'd be the best person to confirm whether the example with multiple > s, each with its own , makes sense. But since the example has > been there for ages, so we've been encouraging people to do things that > way, I think we should probably remove the Schematron constraint. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-06-11 05:33 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Sorry, must have completely missed it. I was just skimming my mail >> because of DHSI. I'll go back and read. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-06-10 11:55 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> i noted this in messages on Saturday, unless I am going mad. >>> 9th June, Subject "schematron test on causes false? positive" >>> >>> see also message with subject of "msIdentifier" which explains >>> why it has only just appeared. >>> -- >>> Sebastian Rahtz >>> Director (Research) of Academic IT >>> University of Oxford IT Services >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>> > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jun 11 12:05:19 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 16:05:19 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron constraint on In-Reply-To: <51B747F7.3000206@uvic.ca> References: <51B64B32.7040800@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3915C7@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51B71910.1000108@uvic.ca> <51B747F7.3000206@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3960FF@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Jun 2013, at 16:53, Martin Holmes wrote: > He'd be the best person to confirm whether the example with multiple > s, each with its own , makes sense. But since the example has > been there for ages, so we've been encouraging people to do things that > way, I think we should probably remove the Schematron constraint. > that would get us past the current block; but since Gabby doesn't like the example either, we could equally well comment-out the example! -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jun 11 12:08:33 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 17:08:33 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron constraint on In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3960FF@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51B64B32.7040800@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3915C7@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51B71910.1000108@uvic.ca> <51B747F7.3000206@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3960FF@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B74B81.2060103@kcl.ac.uk> I have to say, though, my opinion on that example isn't worth a hill of beans. I don't *do* Lachmannian apparatus criticus at all (hence my engagement with the apparatus tickets is mostly to keep arguing that we not restrict the app tag to manuscript variants...) I'd suggest running this past someone like Marjorie, who *does* have strong opinions about apparatus. :-) On 2013-06-11 17:05, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 11 Jun 2013, at 16:53, Martin Holmes > wrote: >> He'd be the best person to confirm whether the example with multiple >> s, each with its own , makes sense. But since the example has >> been there for ages, so we've been encouraging people to do things that >> way, I think we should probably remove the Schematron constraint. >> > > that would get us past the current block; but since Gabby doesn't > like the example either, we could equally well comment-out the example! > > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jun 11 12:13:30 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 16:13:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron constraint on In-Reply-To: <51B74B81.2060103@kcl.ac.uk> References: <51B64B32.7040800@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3915C7@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51B71910.1000108@uvic.ca> <51B747F7.3000206@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3960FF@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51B74B81.2060103@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3962A9@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 11 Jun 2013, at 17:08, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > I have to say, though, my opinion on that example isn't worth a hill of > beans. I don't *do* Lachmannian apparatus criticus at all (hence my > engagement with the apparatus tickets is mostly to keep arguing that we > not restrict the app tag to manuscript variants...) > > I'd suggest running this past someone like Marjorie have done just that -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jun 11 12:21:59 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 09:21:59 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron constraint on In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3960FF@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51B64B32.7040800@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3915C7@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51B71910.1000108@uvic.ca> <51B747F7.3000206@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3960FF@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B74EA7.3070009@uvic.ca> Syd added the Schematron a couple of years ago: Haven't yet figured out when the example appeared... Cheers, Martin On 13-06-11 09:05 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 11 Jun 2013, at 16:53, Martin Holmes > wrote: >> He'd be the best person to confirm whether the example with multiple >> s, each with its own , makes sense. But since the example has >> been there for ages, so we've been encouraging people to do things that >> way, I think we should probably remove the Schematron constraint. >> > > that would get us past the current block; but since Gabby doesn't > like the example either, we could equally well comment-out the example! > > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From elli_mylonas at brown.edu Tue Jun 11 15:27:13 2013 From: elli_mylonas at brown.edu (Mylonas, Elli) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:27:13 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Planning next face2face meeting In-Reply-To: <1370961114.25026.140661242593461.0FF80768@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> <51B6F5F9.8010203@kcl.ac.uk> <1370961114.25026.140661242593461.0FF80768@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: No real preference, I'd like to be home for Thanksgiving, however, which is November 28 this year. So perhaps not available later than the 24th, or even a bit earlier. --elli On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Paul Schaffner wrote: > Ditto to what Becky said. pfs > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013, at 8:15, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: >> I would also be fine with Oxford in November, and thought Wolfson >> worked just fine as a place to stay and to meet. It may be worth >> noting that last year, because the EEBO-TCP conference and TEI Council >> meeting were back to back, the TCP absorbed the cost of Paul's and my >> airfare. I don't expect we'd be able to do that for the meeting this >> fall, especially given that we'll be making the same trip in >> September. >> >> I'm free November 10-24, as well as pretty much all of October. >> >> Becky >> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Gabriel Bodard >> wrote: >> > On 2013-06-10 17:42, James Cummings wrote: >> >> 1) Do you have a strong preference for Oxford or Ann Arbor; I'm >> >> assuming Oxford is better choice this time and seems fairer on >> >> this year's elected Americans (in getting a trip to the UK). >> > >> > I prefer Oxford, for the opposite reason to that implied: I don't think >> > I can stand another intercontinental trip in this already busy year! I >> > can also help save a bit of money if someone (e.g. Hugh or Elli or both) >> > don't mind commuting instead of staying at Wolfson or wherever. (Otoh, I >> > could save even more money if we go to the US by Skyping in instead of >> > attending in person. :-) ) >> > >> >> 2) Do you have a strong preference for timing? I'm leaning to >> >> mid-November myself but other than having a massively busy >> >> Sept/October I've no other reason. I'll put up a doodle poll >> >> eventually to get more precise availability but happy to rule out >> >> things in advance. >> > >> > September would be impossible for me, with trips to Bulgaria, Spain and >> > Italy already lined up. Later October or November currently seem fine >> > (although may clash with teaching). >> > >> >> 3) Our last face2face meeting in Oxford was partly at Wolfson >> >> College; were those who attended that ok with that as a meeting >> >> venue? (We have a good relationship with them since out >> >> Digital.Humanities @ Oxford Summer School is there.) I am >> >> investigating that as a possibility but can look for other venues >> >> if people were dissatisfied with that one. >> > >> > As a meeting venue it seemed fine, yes. A bit of a trek from the train >> > station for those of us commuting, but that's not a dealbreaker. (And >> > was an excuse to be lazy and take a cab!) >> > >> > G >> > >> > -- >> > Dr Gabriel BODARD >> > Researcher in Digital Epigraphy >> > >> > Digital Humanities >> > King's College London >> > Boris Karloff Building >> > 26-29 Drury Lane >> > London WC2B 5RL >> > >> > T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 >> > E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk >> > >> > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ >> > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ >> > >> > -- >> > tei-council mailing list >> > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > >> > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- > Paul Schaffner Digital Library Production Service > PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ > > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From bbarney2 at unl.edu Tue Jun 11 17:05:58 2013 From: bbarney2 at unl.edu (Brett Barney) Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2013 21:05:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Planning next face2face meeting In-Reply-To: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5FFB9E9A-E59F-4F6E-A3E3-CDD9338F55A8@unl.edu> On Jun 10, 2013, at 11:42 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > 1) Do you have a strong preference for Oxford or Ann Arbor; I'm > assuming Oxford is better choice this time and seems fairer on > this year's elected Americans (in getting a trip to the UK). No real preference here. (How is it I didn't see any of this Tunnock's stuff before? Looks tasty.) > 2) Do you have a strong preference for timing? I'm leaning to > mid-November myself but other than having a massively busy > Sept/October I've no other reason. I'll put up a doodle poll > eventually to get more precise availability but happy to rule out > things in advance. It's starting to sound like a consensus for early-mid November, which is fine with me. But October would be OK, too. > 3) Our last face2face meeting in Oxford was partly at Wolfson > College; were those who attended that ok with that as a meeting > venue? (We have a good relationship with them since out > Digital.Humanities @ Oxford Summer School is there.) I am > investigating that as a possibility but can look for other venues > if people were dissatisfied with that one. I liked Wolfson. I'm a bit jealous that the Irish woman in the dining hall didn't pay me any particular attention, though. I shall try to remedy that, if given the chance. > Any thoughts? > > -James > > > -- > Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk > Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > ---------------- Brett Barney Associate Research Professor Center for Digital Research in the Humanities bbarney2 at unl.edu From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jun 12 04:20:54 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 08:20:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: multiple lem in TEI References: Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A399644@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Marjorie has sent a helpful discussion of the invalid example, but it confuses me even further about which way we should go with this. More input needed: is the example or the constraint wrong? Begin forwarded message: From: Marjorie Burghart > It's indeed an awkward example... If I understand correctly, its problem is not so much that it has several as that it does NOT really have one. If you look at the example above the last one, you see that "Experience" is the lemma, and "Experiment" and "Eryment" are rejected readings - which is very fine: one and only one lemma, 1 or more readings. The last example, as I understand it, expands on the previous one: it notes orthographic variants in s, grouped with the main word they are subvariants in s. As a side note, in the area of philology with which I am familiar (Latin language, "literary" religious texts) minor orthographic variants are not considered significant in the history of the transmission of the text, and most philologists do not bother with them (they just announce in the introduction a list of words that have been given a standard spelling, usually). It is quite different though with people editing vernacular texts, so it all depends. But noting the orthographic variants can of course be useful if you are preparing an edition with links to digital facsimile of the witnesses. In this case, comes in handy, but it seems that has a different meaning within a rdgGrp: apparently it does not mean that this is the reading of choice to retain in the main text, but the canonical spelling of the word. Therefore, in the last example, I do NOT see any real lemma, and I would be really bothered if I had to build a "main text". There should be something somewhere to note that the first containing "Experience" and its minor orthographic variants IS the actual lemma of this . Should there be a then? :) -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jun 12 05:36:31 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 10:36:31 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: multiple lem in TEI In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A399644@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A399644@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B8411F.3080100@kcl.ac.uk> lemGrp is not a terrible idea, as unintuitive as it may sound. On the other hand, if Marjorie is right about what the example in the GLs means, then shouldn't it perhaps be something like: so that there is one "preferred" reading for someone who wants to generate a "good text" from this, and all of the variants are still available to someone wanting to generate a dynamic view of all the witnesses? The schematron rule would therefore stand... G On 2013-06-12 09:20, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > Marjorie has sent a helpful discussion of the invalid example, > but it confuses me even further about which way we should go with this. > > More input needed: is the example or the constraint wrong? > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Marjorie Burghart > > > It's indeed an awkward example... If I understand correctly, its problem is not so much that it has several as that it does NOT really have one. > If you look at the example above the last one, you see that "Experience" is the lemma, and "Experiment" and "Eryment" are rejected readings - which is very fine: one and only one lemma, 1 or more readings. > The last example, as I understand it, expands on the previous one: it notes orthographic variants in s, grouped with the main word they are subvariants in s. As a side note, in the area of philology with which I am familiar (Latin language, "literary" religious texts) minor orthographic variants are not considered significant in the history of the transmission of the text, and most philologists do not bother with them (they just announce in the introduction a list of words that have been given a standard spelling, usually). It is quite different though with people editing vernacular texts, so it all depends. But noting the orthographic variants can of course be useful if you are preparing an edition with links to digital facsimile of the witnesses. > In this case, comes in handy, but it seems that has a different meaning within a rdgGrp: apparently it does not mean that this is the reading of choice to retain in the main text, but the canonical spelling of the word. Therefore, in the last example, I do NOT see any real lemma, and I would be really bothered if I had to build a "main text". There should be something somewhere to note that the first containing "Experience" and its minor orthographic variants IS the actual lemma of this . > > Should there be a then? :) > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jun 12 06:20:18 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 11:20:18 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: multiple lem in TEI In-Reply-To: References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A399644@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51B8411F.3080100@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B84B62.8070000@kcl.ac.uk> That's fair enough, yes. I can't help but think, though, that that's not the real distinction between lem and rdg though, is it? (At least, obviously that *may* be the rationale for preferring one reading over another, but it may just as well not be.) The lem may be preferred by the principle of lectio dificilior, for example, rather than being a "better" reading. If we want to make the distinction between regularised and less regular readings, mightn't we either type the rdgs, or embed reg/orig within them? G On 2013-06-12 10:50, Marjorie Burghart wrote: > Hi Gabriel! > Your example is less confusing indeed, and it would work to build a > "main text". But it still lacks a mechanism if you want to express that, > within each or some groups of readings, one of them is to be considered > the standard, regular spelling and the others are subvariants. > Cheers, Marjorie > > > On 12 June 2013 11:36, Gabriel Bodard > wrote: > > lemGrp is not a terrible idea, as unintuitive as it may sound. On > the other hand, if Marjorie is right about what the example in the > GLs means, then shouldn't it perhaps be something like: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so that there is one "preferred" reading for someone who wants to > generate a "good text" from this, and all of the variants are still > available to someone wanting to generate a dynamic view of all the > witnesses? The schematron rule would therefore stand... > > G > > On 2013-06-12 09:20, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > > Marjorie has sent a helpful discussion of the invalid example, > but it confuses me even further about which way we should go > with this. > > More input needed: is the example or the constraint wrong? > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: Marjorie Burghart <__mailto:marjorie.burghart at __ehess.fr > >> > > > It's indeed an awkward example... If I understand correctly, its > problem is not so much that it has several as that it does > NOT really have one. > If you look at the example above the last one, you see that > "Experience" is the lemma, and "Experiment" and "Eryment" are > rejected readings - which is very fine: one and only one lemma, > 1 or more readings. > The last example, as I understand it, expands on the previous > one: it notes orthographic variants in s, grouped with the > main word they are subvariants in s. As a side note, in > the area of philology with which I am familiar (Latin language, > "literary" religious texts) minor orthographic variants are not > considered significant in the history of the transmission of the > text, and most philologists do not bother with them (they just > announce in the introduction a list of words that have been > given a standard spelling, usually). It is quite different > though with people editing vernacular texts, so it all depends. > But noting the orthographic variants can of course be useful if > you are preparing an edition with links to digital facsimile of > the witnesses. > In this case, comes in handy, but it seems that > has a different meaning within a rdgGrp: apparently it does not > mean that this is the reading of choice to retain in the main > text, but the canonical spelling of the word. Therefore, in the > last example, I do NOT see any real lemma, and I would be really > bothered if I had to build a "main text". There should be > something somewhere to note that the first containing > "Experience" and its minor orthographic variants IS the actual > lemma of this . > > Should there be a then? :) > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > Researcher in Digital Epigraphy > > Digital Humanities > King's College London > Boris Karloff Building > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > > T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > > http://www.digitalclassicist.__org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.__org/ > > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jun 12 07:20:41 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 12:20:41 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] multiple lem in TEI In-Reply-To: References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A399644@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51B8411F.3080100@kcl.ac.uk> <51B84B62.8070000@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B85989.4000102@kcl.ac.uk> You're right about reg of course; I wasn't thinking clearly. Re your first objection, though: I don't think this is a problem because I still don't think that the role plays is strictly to indicate the regular spelling: rather it indicates the edition's preferred reading (which may be "the spelling I think the author actually used" not "the one she *should have* used"). I do see however that the lem within all rdgGrps is neat, if we made it clear that the preferred reading is not just "the lem in this app", but "the lem that is either a direct child of the app or the child of a lemGrp". (I'm not sure how much I like inventing a new element to solve this problem rather than typing the rdgs, but it would be more consistent/neat. And much better than nesting another app inside a lem, which is how I've seen other people handle this.) G On 2013-06-12 12:06, Marjorie Burghart wrote: > Yes, maybe we should: > - authorize only 1 lem within only one rdgGrp in an app > - use sthg else than lem in other rdgGrp to indicate the regular spelling > But... in this case > - we would use a different mechanism (lem in the 1sr rdgGrp, sthg else > in others) to express the same thing > - I would not use reg to note the preferred spelling in a rdgGrp, since > it would mean that this form has been regularized by the editor, instead > of being borne by a witness > > > On Wednesday, 12 June 2013, Gabriel Bodard > wrote: > > That's fair enough, yes. I can't help but think, though, that that's > not the real distinction between lem and rdg though, is it? (At least, > obviously that *may* be the rationale for preferring one reading over > another, but it may just as well not be.) The lem may be preferred by > the principle of lectio dificilior, for example, rather than being a > "better" reading. > > > > If we want to make the distinction between regularised and less > regular readings, mightn't we either type the rdgs, or embed reg/orig > within them? > > > > G > > > > On 2013-06-12 10:50, Marjorie Burghart wrote: > >> > >> Hi Gabriel! > >> Your example is less confusing indeed, and it would work to build a > >> "main text". But it still lacks a mechanism if you want to express that, > >> within each or some groups of readings, one of them is to be considered > >> the standard, regular spelling and the others are subvariants. > >> Cheers, Marjorie > >> > >> > >> On 12 June 2013 11:36, Gabriel Bodard > >> >> > wrote: > >> > >> lemGrp is not a terrible idea, as unintuitive as it may sound. On > >> the other hand, if Marjorie is right about what the example in the > >> GLs means, then shouldn't it perhaps be something like: > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> so that there is one "preferred" reading for someone who wants to > >> generate a "good text" from this, and all of the variants are still > >> available to someone wanting to generate a dynamic view of all the > >> witnesses? The schematron rule would therefore stand... > >> > >> G > >> > >> On 2013-06-12 09:20, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> > >> > >> Marjorie has sent a helpful discussion of the invalid example, > >> but it confuses me even further about which way we should go > >> with this. > >> > >> More input needed: is the example or the constraint wrong? > >> > >> Begin forwarded message: > >> > >> From: Marjorie Burghart > >> ><__mailto:marjorie.burghart@ > __ehess.fr > >> >>> > >> > >> > >> It's indeed an awkward example... If I understand correctly, its > >> problem is not so much that it has several as that it does > >> NOT really have one. > >> If you look at the example above the last one, you see that > >> "Experience" is the lemma, and "Experiment" and "Eryment" are > >> rejected readings - which is very fine: one and only one lemma, > >> 1 or more readings. > >> The last example, as I understand it, expands on the previous > >> one: it notes orthographic variants in s, grouped with the > >> main word they are subvariants in s. As a side note, in > >> the area of philology with which I am familiar (Latin language, > >> "literary" religious texts) minor orthographic variants are not > >> considered significant in the history of the transmission of the > >> text, and most philologists do not bother with them (they just > >> announce in the introduction a list of words that have been > >> given a standard spelling, usually). It is quite different > >> though with people editing vernacular texts, so it all depends. > >> But noting the orthographic variants can of course be useful if > >> you are preparing an edition with links to digital facsimile of > >> the witnesses. > >> In this case, comes in handy, but it seems that > >> has a different meaning within a rdgGrp: apparently it does not > >> mean that this is the reading of choice to retain in the main > >> text, but the canonical spelling of the word. Therefore, in the > >> last example, I do NOT see any real lemma, and I would be really > >> bothered if I had to build a "main text". There should be > >> something somewhere to note that the first containing > >> "Experience" and its minor orthographic variants IS the actual > >> lemma of this . > >> > >> Should there be a then? :) > >> -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Jun 12 07:26:41 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 04:26:41 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: multiple lem in TEI In-Reply-To: <51B8411F.3080100@kcl.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A399644@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51B8411F.3080100@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B85AF1.3010808@uvic.ca> I went through the svn history, and it looks like this example was added in this commit: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ r4552 | louburnard | 2008-04-29 16:11:49 -0700 (Tue, 29 Apr 2008) | 2 lines add examples from Elena ------------------------------------------------------------------------ So we should definitely check with Elena about this. I'll do that and copy the group. Cheers, Martin On 13-06-12 02:36 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > lemGrp is not a terrible idea, as unintuitive as it may sound. On the > other hand, if Marjorie is right about what the example in the GLs > means, then shouldn't it perhaps be something like: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so that there is one "preferred" reading for someone who wants to > generate a "good text" from this, and all of the variants are still > available to someone wanting to generate a dynamic view of all the > witnesses? The schematron rule would therefore stand... > > G > > On 2013-06-12 09:20, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >> Marjorie has sent a helpful discussion of the invalid example, >> but it confuses me even further about which way we should go with this. >> >> More input needed: is the example or the constraint wrong? >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: Marjorie Burghart > >> >> It's indeed an awkward example... If I understand correctly, its problem is not so much that it has several as that it does NOT really have one. >> If you look at the example above the last one, you see that "Experience" is the lemma, and "Experiment" and "Eryment" are rejected readings - which is very fine: one and only one lemma, 1 or more readings. >> The last example, as I understand it, expands on the previous one: it notes orthographic variants in s, grouped with the main word they are subvariants in s. As a side note, in the area of philology with which I am familiar (Latin language, "literary" religious texts) minor orthographic variants are not considered significant in the history of the transmission of the text, and most philologists do not bother with them (they just announce in the introduction a list of words that have been given a standard spelling, usually). It is quite different though with people editing vernacular texts, so it all depends. But noting the orthographic variants can of course be useful if you are preparing an edition with links to digital facsimile of the witnesses. >> In this case, comes in handy, but it seems that has a different meaning within a rdgGrp: apparently it does not mean that this is the reading of choice to retain in the main text, but the canonical spelling of the word. Therefore, in the last example, I do NOT see any real lemma, and I would be really bothered if I had to build a "main text". There should be something somewhere to note that the first containing "Experience" and its minor orthographic variants IS the actual lemma of this . >> >> Should there be a then? :) >> >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> > From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Jun 12 07:35:03 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 04:35:03 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Example of with multiple s Message-ID: <51B85CE7.3020504@uvic.ca> Hi Elena, We've been having a discussion on the Council list about an example in the app.xml Spec: Sebastian has summarized the problem like this: "The example at has multiple inside an . This contradicts a constraint in the schema which says that can have at most one descendent Can you give us your opinion? Is that example meaningful, or is the constraint valid?" I'm checking with you because it seems as though the original example under discussion came from you, back in 2008: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ r4552 | louburnard | 2008-04-29 16:11:49 -0700 (Tue, 29 Apr 2008) | 2 lines add examples from Elena ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you remember this example, and does it still make sense to you? Cheers, Martin From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Jun 12 08:01:05 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 13:01:05 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: multiple lem in TEI In-Reply-To: <51B85AF1.3010808@uvic.ca> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A399644@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51B8411F.3080100@kcl.ac.uk> <51B85AF1.3010808@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51B86301.5040102@retired.ox.ac.uk> I don't think Elena had anything to do with this particular example : the text licensing this usage of multiply nested s as an alternative to multiply nested s goes back to TEI P3 if not before. This example is from section 19.1.3 ("Indicating subvariation in Apparatus Entries") of P3, reappears more or less without change in P4, and eventually becomes section 12.1.3 of P5. The comment at the end of the section " Some encoders may find the use of nested apparatus entries less intuitive than the use of reading groups, however, so both methods of classifying the readings of a variation are allowed." seems somewhat humorous in retrospect. Amongst possible solutions that occur to me a) modify the schematron rule to distinguish rdgGrp/rdgGrp/lem from rdgGrp/lem b) disallow the nesting of rdgGrps (if you want to do that, you have to use nested s unintuitive as that may seem) c) remove the schematron rule completely On 12/06/13 12:26, Martin Holmes wrote: > I went through the svn history, and it looks like this example was added > in this commit: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > r4552 | louburnard | 2008-04-29 16:11:49 -0700 (Tue, 29 Apr 2008) | 2 lines > > add examples from Elena > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > So we should definitely check with Elena about this. I'll do that and > copy the group. > > Cheers, > Martin > > > On 13-06-12 02:36 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> lemGrp is not a terrible idea, as unintuitive as it may sound. On the >> other hand, if Marjorie is right about what the example in the GLs >> means, then shouldn't it perhaps be something like: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> so that there is one "preferred" reading for someone who wants to >> generate a "good text" from this, and all of the variants are still >> available to someone wanting to generate a dynamic view of all the >> witnesses? The schematron rule would therefore stand... >> >> G >> >> On 2013-06-12 09:20, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> Marjorie has sent a helpful discussion of the invalid example, >>> but it confuses me even further about which way we should go with this. >>> >>> More input needed: is the example or the constraint wrong? >>> >>> Begin forwarded message: >>> >>> From: Marjorie Burghart > >>> >>> It's indeed an awkward example... If I understand correctly, its problem is not so much that it has several as that it does NOT really have one. >>> If you look at the example above the last one, you see that "Experience" is the lemma, and "Experiment" and "Eryment" are rejected readings - which is very fine: one and only one lemma, 1 or more readings. >>> The last example, as I understand it, expands on the previous one: it notes orthographic variants in s, grouped with the main word they are subvariants in s. As a side note, in the area of philology with which I am familiar (Latin language, "literary" religious texts) minor orthographic variants are not considered significant in the history of the transmission of the text, and most philologists do not bother with them (they just announce in the introduction a list of words that have been given a standard spelling, usually). It is quite different though with people editing vernacular texts, so it all depends. But noting the orthographic variants can of course be useful if you are preparing an edition with links to digital facsimile of the witnesses. >>> In this case, comes in handy, but it seems that has a different meaning within a rdgGrp: apparently it does not mean that this is the reading of choice to retain in the main text, but the canonical spelling of the word. Therefore, in the last example, I do NOT see any real lemma, and I would be really bothered if I had to build a "main text". There should be something somewhere to note that the first containing "Experience" and its minor orthographic variants IS the actual lemma of this . >>> >>> Should there be a then? :) >>> >>> -- >>> Sebastian Rahtz >>> Director (Research) of Academic IT >>> University of Oxford IT Services >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>> From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Jun 12 08:04:33 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 05:04:33 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: multiple lem in TEI In-Reply-To: <51B86301.5040102@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A399644@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51B8411F.3080100@kcl.ac.uk> <51B85AF1.3010808@uvic.ca> <51B86301.5040102@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B863D1.9090801@uvic.ca> Would a fourth option be to move the constraint from to ? Even if there's a tortuous argument to be made for this particular example, presumably no-one is suggesting that a single can have multiple s? Cheers, Martin On 13-06-12 05:01 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > I don't think Elena had anything to do with this particular example : > the text licensing this usage of multiply nested s as an > alternative to multiply nested s goes back to TEI P3 if not before. > > This example is from section 19.1.3 ("Indicating subvariation in > Apparatus Entries") of P3, reappears more or less without change in P4, > and eventually becomes section 12.1.3 of P5. The comment at the end of > the section " Some encoders may find the use of nested apparatus entries > less intuitive than the use of reading groups, however, so both methods > of classifying the readings of a variation are allowed." seems somewhat > humorous in retrospect. > > Amongst possible solutions that occur to me > > a) modify the schematron rule to distinguish rdgGrp/rdgGrp/lem from > rdgGrp/lem > > b) disallow the nesting of rdgGrps (if you want to do that, you have to > use nested s unintuitive as that may seem) > > c) remove the schematron rule completely > > > > > On 12/06/13 12:26, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I went through the svn history, and it looks like this example was added >> in this commit: >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> r4552 | louburnard | 2008-04-29 16:11:49 -0700 (Tue, 29 Apr 2008) | 2 lines >> >> add examples from Elena >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> So we should definitely check with Elena about this. I'll do that and >> copy the group. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> >> On 13-06-12 02:36 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> lemGrp is not a terrible idea, as unintuitive as it may sound. On the >>> other hand, if Marjorie is right about what the example in the GLs >>> means, then shouldn't it perhaps be something like: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> so that there is one "preferred" reading for someone who wants to >>> generate a "good text" from this, and all of the variants are still >>> available to someone wanting to generate a dynamic view of all the >>> witnesses? The schematron rule would therefore stand... >>> >>> G >>> >>> On 2013-06-12 09:20, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>> Marjorie has sent a helpful discussion of the invalid example, >>>> but it confuses me even further about which way we should go with this. >>>> >>>> More input needed: is the example or the constraint wrong? >>>> >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> >>>> From: Marjorie Burghart > >>>> >>>> It's indeed an awkward example... If I understand correctly, its problem is not so much that it has several as that it does NOT really have one. >>>> If you look at the example above the last one, you see that "Experience" is the lemma, and "Experiment" and "Eryment" are rejected readings - which is very fine: one and only one lemma, 1 or more readings. >>>> The last example, as I understand it, expands on the previous one: it notes orthographic variants in s, grouped with the main word they are subvariants in s. As a side note, in the area of philology with which I am familiar (Latin language, "literary" religious texts) minor orthographic variants are not considered significant in the history of the transmission of the text, and most philologists do not bother with them (they just announce in the introduction a list of words that have been given a standard spelling, usually). It is quite different though with people editing vernacular texts, so it all depends. But noting the orthographic variants can of course be useful if you are preparing an edition with links to digital facsimile of the witnesses. >>>> In this case, comes in handy, but it seems that has a different meaning within a rdgGrp: apparently it does not mean that this is the reading of choice to retain in the main text, but the canonical spelling of the word. Therefore, in the last example, I do NOT see any real lemma, and I would be really bothered if I had to build a "main text". There should be something somewhere to note that the first containing "Experience" and its minor orthographic variants IS the actual lemma of this . >>>> >>>> Should there be a then? :) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sebastian Rahtz >>>> Director (Research) of Academic IT >>>> University of Oxford IT Services >>>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>>> > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Wed Jun 12 08:12:14 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 12:12:14 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: multiple lem in TEI In-Reply-To: <51B86301.5040102@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A399644@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51B8411F.3080100@kcl.ac.uk> <51B85AF1.3010808@uvic.ca> <51B86301.5040102@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <05b325c4-6126-4cf1-a8d6-46bc54d57365@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 12 Jun 2013, at 13:01, Lou Burnard wrote: > Amongst possible solutions that occur to me > > a) modify the schematron rule to distinguish rdgGrp/rdgGrp/lem from > rdgGrp/lem > > b) disallow the nesting of rdgGrps (if you want to do that, you have to > use nested s unintuitive as that may seem) > > c) remove the schematron rule completely a) is the simplest to do, and makes the Guidelines consistent. Since I don't really understand the intricacies, I'd vote for that, i.e. papering over the cracks -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Wed Jun 12 18:06:04 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2013 15:06:04 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] New Guidelines TOC Message-ID: <51B8F0CC.2030608@uvic.ca> Hi all, The work on this FR: is basically finished, and the results can be seen here: Many thanks to Sebastian for figuring out the final changes that needed to be made to the stylesheets to get the old index.html replaced by the new TOC output. I'm ready to close this ticket, unless there are any further objections. The only outstanding issue I'm aware of is that two people suggested that the links to e-book versions of the Guidelines should be repeated at the bottom of the page; I'm not keen on that myself, but it's an easy change if everyone would prefer it. If no objections in the next few days, I'll close the ticket. Cheers, Martin -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 13 05:03:52 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 10:03:52 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] New Guidelines TOC In-Reply-To: <51B8F0CC.2030608@uvic.ca> References: <51B8F0CC.2030608@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51B98AF8.6050407@it.ox.ac.uk> I think that is a lot clearer. No objections. -James On 12/06/13 23:06, Martin Holmes wrote: > Hi all, > > The work on this FR: > > > > is basically finished, and the results can be seen here: > > > > Many thanks to Sebastian for figuring out the final changes > that needed to be made to the stylesheets to get the old > index.html replaced by the new TOC output. > > I'm ready to close this ticket, unless there are any further > objections. The only outstanding issue I'm aware of is that > two people suggested that the links to e-book versions of the > Guidelines should be repeated at the bottom of the page; I'm > not keen on that myself, but it's an easy change if everyone > would prefer it. > > If no objections in the next few days, I'll close the ticket. > > Cheers, Martin > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu Jun 13 06:09:50 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:09:50 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] New Guidelines TOC In-Reply-To: <51B8F0CC.2030608@uvic.ca> References: <51B8F0CC.2030608@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51B99A6E.7030105@kcl.ac.uk> I've just reminded myself of what the old index/toc look like, and I have to say that--although I didn't think it was a big deal before--this new index page is immeasurably better to work with. Many congratulations and thanks Martin for coming up with this! Gabby On 2013-06-12 23:06, Martin Holmes wrote: > Hi all, > > The work on this FR: > > > > is basically finished, and the results can be seen here: > > > > Many thanks to Sebastian for figuring out the final changes that needed > to be made to the stylesheets to get the old index.html replaced by the > new TOC output. > > I'm ready to close this ticket, unless there are any further objections. > The only outstanding issue I'm aware of is that two people suggested > that the links to e-book versions of the Guidelines should be repeated > at the bottom of the page; I'm not keen on that myself, but it's an easy > change if everyone would prefer it. > > If no objections in the next few days, I'll close the ticket. > > Cheers, > Martin > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jun 13 08:48:26 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 05:48:26 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Example of with multiple s In-Reply-To: <8CF2753E-71BC-4627-9AF4-861F72F95CBA@kcl.ac.uk> References: <51B85CE7.3020504@uvic.ca> <8CF2753E-71BC-4627-9AF4-861F72F95CBA@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51B9BF9A.4070403@uvic.ca> Thanks Elena. Based on this, I'm inclined to rephrase the constraint like this: Only one <lem> element may appear as a direct child of <app>. as a quick way to get us back to valid builds, and then raise a ticket to look at the more complicated issues. Thorts? Cheers, Martin On 13-06-13 02:29 AM, Pierazzo, Elena wrote: > Hi Martin, > > The example is correct. I thought that we meant as direct child > of : if you have it is quite normal that you have > multiple . In fact the normal content of is 1 (if > present) and many , but if there are you may want to > have sub lemmas reconstructed or attested, in order to be able to > build a meaningful stemma codicum which is based on common readings. > > I hope this helps. Elena > > -- Dr Elena Pierazzo Lecturer in Digital;app> Humanities Department in > Digital Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B > 5RL > > Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 > elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk > www.kcl.ac.uk/ddh > > On 12 Jun 2013, at 12:35, Martin Holmes wrote: > > Hi Elena, > > We've been having a discussion on the Council list about an example > in the app.xml Spec: > > > > Sebastian has summarized the problem like this: > > "The example at > > > > has multiple inside an . This contradicts a constraint in > the schema which says that can have at most one descendent > > > Can you give us your opinion? Is that example meaningful, or is the > constraint valid?" > > I'm checking with you because it seems as though the original example > under discussion came from you, back in 2008: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > r4552 | louburnard | 2008-04-29 16:11:49 -0700 (Tue, 29 Apr 2008) | 2 lines > > add examples from Elena > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Do you remember this example, and does it still make sense to you? > > Cheers, Martin > > > From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Jun 13 23:14:18 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 23:14:18 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Planning next face2face meeting In-Reply-To: <5FFB9E9A-E59F-4F6E-A3E3-CDD9338F55A8@unl.edu> References: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> <5FFB9E9A-E59F-4F6E-A3E3-CDD9338F55A8@unl.edu> Message-ID: <20922.35466.800216.840170@emt.ad.brown.edu> I really do not want to miss the American Thanksgiving holiday (Thu 11-28), but other than that my schedule from the Members' Meeting through the next WWP seminar (Wed 12-11) is open. I don't care where this one is held. (Note that I don't necessarily think of a trip to UK as a plus. A *holiday* in the UK would be great, but a business trip itself is not a big plus.) -- N.B.: New e-mail address as of 2013-07-01 will be s.bauman at neu.edu From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 04:46:06 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 09:46:06 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Next Release: 2.4.0 Message-ID: <51BAD84E.2080407@it.ox.ac.uk> Hi all, As you know we have a release timetabled tentatively for the 4 July 2013. Syd, as our release technician, is still waiting on scheduling information but it should be within a day or so of that. I'm assuming this should be release 2.4.0. At the last release and at various other times we have proposed having a longer break between the date at which we freeze changes to the repository and the release date and use that time to proofread the changes since the last release. With that in mind I propose from: 20 June: repository chill: stop implementing anything new; changes to prose still allowed; uncontroversial bug fixes still allowed. Start proofreading all changes made since last release. 27 June: repository freeze: continue proofreading all outputs; no more stylesheets changes, no Sebastian, stop; changes only if you notify council of any problems and get at least another couple council members to agree it is release-blocking and must be changed. 2 July: repository absolute zero: no changes, no, stop, no, no no no. 4 July (hopefully): release day. That isn't as rigorous as we could be, but seems like an improvement. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 04:49:10 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 08:49:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Next Release: 2.4.0 In-Reply-To: <51BAD84E.2080407@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51BAD84E.2080407@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4dd82c7f-2373-4780-b1e5-9bd2f03cbd0d@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> sounds good to me. i made a stylesheet release a couple of days ago, and don't have any time between now and 4th July to do any serious TEI work, so expect deep quiet from me :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 05:00:01 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 09:00:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Example of with multiple s In-Reply-To: <51B9BF9A.4070403@uvic.ca> References: <51B85CE7.3020504@uvic.ca> <8CF2753E-71BC-4627-9AF4-861F72F95CBA@kcl.ac.uk> <51B9BF9A.4070403@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5E95@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 13 Jun 2013, at 13:48, Martin Holmes wrote: > Thanks Elena. Based on this, I'm inclined to rephrase the constraint > like this: > > > > > Only one <lem> element may appear as a direct child of > <app>. > > > This is redundant for . As I read the schema, it only allows one child of anyway. The problem is the beastly thing, and the fact that it can be repeated and self-nest. I fear that the simplest thing to do is to remove the constraint entirely for the moment unless and until someone can re-express what exactly it was intending to prevent. The alternative is a rethink of , which we don't have time or mandate for. now, you may ask why appears to allow multiple children. What is the intention there? maybe _it_ needs the constraint. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 05:07:12 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 09:07:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5FB4@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 5 Jun 2013, at 13:26, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> >> after discussion which went on for 7 months? >> >> Lou noted on the ticket on 2011-11-09 >> "recommendation is to use relationGrp for now since it does the job; add relationGrp to model.biblLike"? >> That is a note from a Council meeting - see http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm48.xml >> The record is entirely clear - we decided on November 9th 2011 that >> " will also be added to model.biblLike." >> >> maybe everyone in Paris misunderstood what model.biblLike is, but this is most >> definitely not a "last minute kludge". > > I suspect that what we decided in Paris was actually to add > as a child of all members of model.biblLike, but this got > recorded in the minutes differently. would anyone who was in Paris and remembers the discussion like to support Kevin's Talmudic version? Those minutes are really very opaque on the subject. I don't think it would be simple to implement, mind. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 07:44:26 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 12:44:26 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Example of with multiple s In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5E95@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51B85CE7.3020504@uvic.ca> <8CF2753E-71BC-4627-9AF4-861F72F95CBA@kcl.ac.uk> <51B9BF9A.4070403@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5E95@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51BB021A.6030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 14/06/13 10:00, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > This is redundant for . As I read the schema, it only allows one child > of anyway. The problem is the beastly thing, and the fact that > it can be repeated and self-nest. > > I fear that the simplest thing to do is to remove the constraint entirely for the moment > unless and until someone can re-express what exactly it was intending to prevent. > The alternative is a rethink of , which we don't have time or mandate for. > > now, you may ask why appears to allow multiple children. What > is the intention there? maybe _it_ needs the constraint. > I don't think should be permitted to have multiple (direct) children, both because it makes no sense and because it would then be different from , for which (in the passage I quoted in my previous mail on this topic) it occasionally substitutes. So I would vote for removing the constraint, and possibly tweaking the content model of From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 07:56:16 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 12:56:16 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5FB4@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5FB4@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51BB04E0.80804@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 14/06/13 10:07, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 5 Jun 2013, at 13:26, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > >>> after discussion which went on for 7 months? >>> >>> Lou noted on the ticket on 2011-11-09 >>> "recommendation is to use relationGrp for now since it does the job; add relationGrp to model.biblLike"? >>> That is a note from a Council meeting - see http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm48.xml >>> The record is entirely clear - we decided on November 9th 2011 that >>> " will also be added to model.biblLike." >>> >>> maybe everyone in Paris misunderstood what model.biblLike is, but this is most >>> definitely not a "last minute kludge". >> I suspect that what we decided in Paris was actually to add >> as a child of all members of model.biblLike, but this got >> recorded in the minutes differently. > > would anyone who was in Paris and remembers the discussion like to support > Kevin's Talmudic version? Those minutes are really very opaque on the subject. I am not sure what's Talmudic about this, but here's what Kevin actually added to the ticket on 2011-10-15 "For clarity, the new element (which would contain elements) would be allowed in the same places as the to-be-deprecated except that it would also be added to model.biblLike so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull could contain elements without needing to wrap these elements in ." If the intent is (as I think this comment suggests) to allow within and friends, then clearly adding it to model.biblLike won't cut it: the relevant class would be model.biblPart. I think that's a corrigible error and I propose to corridge it, unless there is strong objection. It leaves aside the broader question as to where else , or elements should be permitted. That probably needs a separate and longer discussion. > I don't think it would be simple to implement, mind. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 10:38:26 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 14:38:26 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Example of with multiple s In-Reply-To: <51BB021A.6030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51B85CE7.3020504@uvic.ca> <8CF2753E-71BC-4627-9AF4-861F72F95CBA@kcl.ac.uk> <51B9BF9A.4070403@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5E95@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB021A.6030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <489ea3ce-57b2-47d8-a00c-b6bb2a07be92@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 14 Jun 2013, at 12:44, Lou Burnard wrote: > > I don't think should be permitted to have multiple (direct) children, both because it makes no sense and because it would then be different from , for which (in the passage I quoted in my previous mail on this topic) it occasionally substitutes. > > So I would vote for removing the constraint, and possibly tweaking the content model of can you suggest changes to the model, then? why is the second part of it zeroOrMore? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 11:03:22 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 15:03:22 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51BB04E0.80804@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5FB4@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB04E0.80804@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 14 Jun 2013, at 12:56, Lou Burnard wrote: > > "For clarity, the new element (which would contain > elements) would be allowed in the same places as the > to-be-deprecated except that it would also be added to > model.biblLike so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull could contain > elements without needing to wrap these elements in > ." > > If the intent is (as I think this comment suggests) to allow > within and friends, then clearly adding it to model.biblLike > won't cut it: the relevant class would be model.biblPart. I think that's > a corrigible error and I propose to corridge it, unless there is strong > objection. That doesn't solve the problem, as it misses out the " and friends" clause. But I agree, its better than nothing, and probably what Kevin asked for. See if it breaks anything?. > It leaves aside the broader question as to where else , or > elements should be permitted. That probably needs a > separate and longer discussion. true roll on /TEI/linkedData -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 11:12:02 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 16:12:02 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A74F8@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5FB4@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB04E0.80804@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A74F8@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51BB32C2.2010801@retired.ox.ac.uk> Alternatively, we could add it to model.global.meta (which is probly where it should be) . Though it still wouldnt be available in even then. On 14/06/13 16:03, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 14 Jun 2013, at 12:56, Lou Burnard > wrote: >> "For clarity, the new element (which would contain >> elements) would be allowed in the same places as the >> to-be-deprecated except that it would also be added to >> model.biblLike so that bibl, biblStruct, and biblFull could contain >> elements without needing to wrap these elements in >> ." >> >> If the intent is (as I think this comment suggests) to allow >> within and friends, then clearly adding it to model.biblLike >> won't cut it: the relevant class would be model.biblPart. I think that's >> a corrigible error and I propose to corridge it, unless there is strong >> objection. > That doesn't solve the problem, as it misses out the " and friends" clause. > But I agree, its better than nothing, and probably what Kevin asked for. > > See if it breaks anything?. > >> It leaves aside the broader question as to where else , or >> elements should be permitted. That probably needs a >> separate and longer discussion. > > true > > > roll on /TEI/linkedData > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 11:19:37 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 15:19:37 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51BB32C2.2010801@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5FB4@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB04E0.80804@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A74F8@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB32C2.2010801@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 14 Jun 2013, at 16:12, Lou Burnard wrote: > Alternatively, we could add it to model.global.meta (which is probly where it should be) . I think that goes beyond corrigibility :-} I'd say all those things should be extracted into /TEI/linkedData, mind > Though it still wouldnt be available in even then. or biblFull -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 11:44:58 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 16:44:58 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A77CA@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5FB4@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB04E0.80804@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A74F8@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB32C2.2010801@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A77CA@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51BB3A7A.4040204@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 14/06/13 16:19, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I think that goes beyond corrigibility :-} I'd say all those things > should be extracted into /TEI/linkedData, mind One of these days, you must explain what exactly you mean by "/TEI/linkedData" and how it works in the TEI architecture. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 11:57:36 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 15:57:36 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51BB3A7A.4040204@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5FB4@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB04E0.80804@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A74F8@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB32C2.2010801@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A77CA@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB3A7A.4040204@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 14 Jun 2013, at 16:44, Lou Burnard wrote: > On 14/06/13 16:19, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> I think that goes beyond corrigibility :-} I'd say all those things should be extracted into /TEI/linkedData, mind > > One of these days, you must explain what exactly you mean by "/TEI/linkedData" and how it works in the TEI architecture. > it is the proposal made several times that we should have a new sibling of text, sourceDoc, teiHeader and facsimile, which is intended solely as a container for standoff markup and for e.g. . Possibly related to http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/453/ to rehearse the well-known arguments a) well, obviously. its just what we need to tell people to use in real-life applications b) whats wrong with model.global.meta and putting it wherever you feel like c) it should go somewhere inside the header etc etc. people who say d) but why can't it just go in obviously need to be sent for Correction people who say e) whats wrong with the current mishmash of loads of different ways of doing it, lets a thousand flowers bloom, the TEI was never intended for interoperability anyway should remember that Captain Beefheart is no long with us -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 11:59:58 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 16:59:58 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A7CB0@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5FB4@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB04E0.80804@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A74F8@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB32C2.2010801@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A77CA@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB3A7A.4040204@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A7CB0@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51BB3DFE.7090707@retired.ox.ac.uk> Ah, you mean the or Link Data Block. Let's do it! But why isn't it in the Header? On 14/06/13 16:57, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > On 14 Jun 2013, at 16:44, Lou Burnard > wrote: > >> On 14/06/13 16:19, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> I think that goes beyond corrigibility :-} I'd say all those things should be extracted into /TEI/linkedData, mind >> One of these days, you must explain what exactly you mean by "/TEI/linkedData" and how it works in the TEI architecture. >> > > it is the proposal made several times that we should have a new sibling of text, sourceDoc, teiHeader and facsimile, > which is intended solely as a container for standoff markup and for e.g. . Possibly related to > http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/453/ > > to rehearse the well-known arguments > > a) well, obviously. its just what we need to tell people to use in real-life applications > b) whats wrong with model.global.meta and putting it wherever you feel like > c) it should go somewhere inside the header > > etc etc. > > people who say > d) but why can't it just go in > obviously need to be sent for Correction > > people who say > e) whats wrong with the current mishmash of loads of different ways of doing it, lets a thousand flowers bloom, the TEI was never intended for interoperability anyway > should remember that Captain Beefheart is no long with us > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 14 12:06:08 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2013 16:06:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51BB3DFE.7090707@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5FB4@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB04E0.80804@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A74F8@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB32C2.2010801@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A77CA@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB3A7A.4040204@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A7CB0@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB3DFE.7090707@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <9be48b15-c9e3-48d3-ad08-db0369d9e039@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 14 Jun 2013, at 16:59, Lou Burnard wrote: > Ah, you mean the or Link Data Block. thats the one > > Let's do it! But why isn't it in the Header? i think we batted this around a few months ago, and there some support for sibling of rather than child. but maybe that was my wishful thinking. i think it would be a good meaty topic for the Winter Council Moot -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sun Jun 16 15:13:12 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:13:12 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <515F2A07.9080701@uvic.ca> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> <50F8B442.4040802@ultraslavonic.info> <50F8C1A5.8050701@uvic.ca> <20831.3106.761143.147697@emt.ad.brown.edu> <515F2A07.9080701@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20926.3656.800185.865662@emt.ad.brown.edu> You mean the tagdoc for or ? I guess so, but in that case the constraint has to explicitly fire at the root, since we wouldn't know which ( or ) is the higest level element. Do we have a list of constructs that have been depricated so far? > >> Sebastian suggested using Schematron to warn when an element is > >> deprecated, but that's probably not so good because it will > >> annoy people still using it. However, we could use Schematron > >> _after_ a deprecated element is finally deleted, to trap for its > >> presence and explain that it was previously deprecated and is > >> now gone. That would only hit people once, when they update > >> their schema after the deletion, and it would provide a helpful > >> explanation for a situation which might otherwise take them by > >> surprise or puzzle them. > > At first glance, I like this idea. I wonder where in the > > Guidelines source ODD files we would put the Schematron code for > > an element that is not being defined. > TEI, or teiCorpus? From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Sun Jun 16 15:24:27 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2013 15:24:27 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <20926.3656.800185.865662@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> <50F8B442.4040802@ultraslavonic.info> <50F8C1A5.8050701@uvic.ca> <20831.3106.761143.147697@emt.ad.brown.edu> <515F2A07.9080701@uvic.ca> <20926.3656.800185.865662@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <51BE10EB.2010308@ultraslavonic.info> I have attempted to list all of them at: http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Practices_no_longer_recommended_or_now_deprecated#5._Recent_.22deprecation.22_practices_to_be_reviewed As it happens, I hoping to return to this document later today. --K. On 6/16/2013 3:13 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: > Do we have a list of constructs that have been depricated so far? From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 17 05:48:56 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:48:56 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <9be48b15-c9e3-48d3-ad08-db0369d9e039@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5FB4@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB04E0.80804@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A74F8@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB32C2.2010801@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A77CA@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB3A7A.4040204@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A7CB0@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB3DFE.7090707@retired.ox.ac.uk> <9be48b15-c9e3-48d3-ad08-db0369d9e039@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51BEDB88.1050401@it.ox.ac.uk> On 14/06/13 17:06, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 14 Jun 2013, at 16:59, Lou Burnard > wrote: > >> Ah, you mean the or Link Data Block. > > thats the one Yes, thought I seem to remember there being support for the name or something. >> Let's do it! But why isn't it in the Header? > > i think we batted this around a few months ago, and there some > support for sibling of rather than child. but > maybe that was my wishful thinking. That is my recollection as well. That doesn't really answer Lou's question. Similarly we could ask why isn't stored in the header (say in )? But that doesn't really answer his question as well. > i think it would be a good meaty topic for the Winter Council > Moot I've added it to my list of things to add to the agenda once we've got a date. Still investigating possible locations. (It seems Wolfson might not have as many rooms available during term.) -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 17 05:53:00 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 09:53:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <51BEDB88.1050401@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5FB4@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB04E0.80804@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A74F8@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB32C2.2010801@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A77CA@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB3A7A.4040204@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A7CB0@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB3DFE.7090707@retired.ox.ac.uk> <9be48b15-c9e3-48d3-ad08-db0369d9e039@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BEDB88.1050401@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <0575397d-4bb9-4d83-8f53-b5688d95dc9f@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 17 Jun 2013, at 10:48, James Cummings wrote: > > I've added it to my list of things to add to the agenda once > we've got a date. Still investigating possible locations. (It > seems Wolfson might not have as many rooms available during term.) > hoping you have Pure ODD on your agenda list? that will need some time. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 17 06:02:57 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 11:02:57 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Example of with multiple s In-Reply-To: <489ea3ce-57b2-47d8-a00c-b6bb2a07be92@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51B85CE7.3020504@uvic.ca> <8CF2753E-71BC-4627-9AF4-861F72F95CBA@kcl.ac.uk> <51B9BF9A.4070403@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5E95@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB021A.6030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> <489ea3ce-57b2-47d8-a00c-b6bb2a07be92@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51BEDED1.3010403@it.ox.ac.uk> Have we reached any conclusion on this? I believe that I agree with Elena that you should only have one as a direct child of but that each may also have one if required. I think the note at http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-rdgGrp.html is incorrect. I think the second example at: http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-app.html is perfectly fine. I would change the content model of to only allow a single if possible or test for that with schematron; likewise I would make sure the content model of only allows a single which I think it already does? I think we should change the note at http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-rdgGrp.html to say "Note that only one lem element may appear *as a direct child of * a single apparatus entry but an additional lem element may be found inside each rdgGrp." or something like that. I believe this agrees with Lou's underlying point that and should mirror each other ( conceptually being a sort of nested for grouping purposes). -James On 14/06/13 15:38, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 14 Jun 2013, at 12:44, Lou Burnard wrote: > >> >> I don't think should be permitted to have multiple (direct) children, both because it makes no sense and because it would then be different from , for which (in the passage I quoted in my previous mail on this topic) it occasionally substitutes. >> >> So I would vote for removing the constraint, and possibly tweaking the content model of > > can you suggest changes to the model, then? why is the second part of it zeroOrMore? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 17 06:12:47 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 11:12:47 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] listRelation membership in model.biblLike In-Reply-To: <0575397d-4bb9-4d83-8f53-b5688d95dc9f@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51ADA8AD.2010008@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE0569.6000808@uvic.ca> <51AE0630.5060707@uvic.ca> <51AE2143.9030705@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51AE22F1.30903@uvic.ca> <51AE6131.6020601@ultraslavonic.info> <51AE7353.8060604@uvic.ca> <51AE7425.1020307@ultraslavonic.info> <51AEE655.1070608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <99151ff5-dd2c-48bc-a48d-cb56f43d8350@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51AF2E86.7040708@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5FB4@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB04E0.80804@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A74F8@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB32C2.2010801@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A77CA@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB3A7A.4040204@retired.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A7CB0@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB3DFE.7090707@retired.ox.ac.uk> <9be48b15-c9e3-48d3-ad08-db0369d9e039@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BEDB88.1050401@it.ox.ac.uk> <0575397d-4bb9-4d83-8f53-b5688d95dc9f@HUB05.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51BEE11F.1080807@it.ox.ac.uk> On 17/06/13 10:53, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 17 Jun 2013, at 10:48, James Cummings > wrote: >> >> I've added it to my list of things to add to the agenda once >> we've got a date. Still investigating possible locations. (It >> seems Wolfson might not have as many rooms available during term.) >> > hoping you have Pure ODD on your agenda list? that will need some > time. Indeed I do. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 17 06:15:16 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:15:16 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Example of with multiple s In-Reply-To: <51BEDED1.3010403@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51B85CE7.3020504@uvic.ca> <8CF2753E-71BC-4627-9AF4-861F72F95CBA@kcl.ac.uk> <51B9BF9A.4070403@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3A5E95@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BB021A.6030702@retired.ox.ac.uk> <489ea3ce-57b2-47d8-a00c-b6bb2a07be92@HUB04.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51BEDED1.3010403@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: i've removed the constraint from (where the schema only allows one anyway), and put a simpler version of it in pro tem. If the content model can be rewritten to enforce that, the constraint can go. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 17 09:28:00 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 14:28:00 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] SF: Allura Tickets 'Priority'. Message-ID: <51BF0EE0.8060009@it.ox.ac.uk> Hiya, In response to one of my actions I've investigated and with a bit of fiddling changed the priority field to be: "1(low) 2 3 4 *"5(default)" 6 7 8 "9(high)" which means going forward the '1' items will be '1(low)', etc. this is a bit awkward but better than just a set of unglossed numbers. This is a 'select' field, the other options for ticket metadata fields are: 'text', 'number', 'boolean', 'milestone' and 'user', which aren't as useful, I think, for this field. Let me know if anyone objects strongly to that, because I can revert it, otherwise new tickets will start using these glossed numbers. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Mon Jun 17 09:59:56 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 09:59:56 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <51BE10EB.2010308@ultraslavonic.info> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> <50F8B442.4040802@ultraslavonic.info> <50F8C1A5.8050701@uvic.ca> <20831.3106.761143.147697@emt.ad.brown.edu> <515F2A07.9080701@uvic.ca> <20926.3656.800185.865662@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51BE10EB.2010308@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <20927.5724.876465.244460@emt.ad.brown.edu> Excellent! I will add a ticket now, and address it this week if time permits (unliekly) or next week (when I'm devoting most my time to TEI). > I have attempted to list all of them at: > > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Practices_no_longer_recommended_or_now_deprecated#5._Recent_.22deprecation.22_practices_to_be_reviewed > > As it happens, I hoping to return to this document later today. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Mon Jun 17 10:14:11 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 10:14:11 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <20927.5724.876465.244460@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> <50F8B442.4040802@ultraslavonic.info> <50F8C1A5.8050701@uvic.ca> <20831.3106.761143.147697@emt.ad.brown.edu> <515F2A07.9080701@uvic.ca> <20926.3656.800185.865662@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51BE10EB.2010308@ultraslavonic.info> <20927.5724.876465.244460@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <51BF19B3.5050303@ultraslavonic.info> I wasn't sure what exactly this ticket would be about, but I think I've found it: https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/459/ I've just linked to this from what I think is the appropriate place on the wiki page. Note that in the timeline that James set out in his 2013-06-14 email to prepare for the next release, he proposed that we stop implementing new things by 2103-06-20 -- this Thursday! On 6/17/2013 9:59 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > Excellent! I will add a ticket now, and address it this week if time > permits (unliekly) or next week (when I'm devoting most my time to > TEI). > >> I have attempted to list all of them at: >> >> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Practices_no_longer_recommended_or_now_deprecated#5._Recent_.22deprecation.22_practices_to_be_reviewed >> >> As it happens, I hoping to return to this document later today. From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 17 10:27:06 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 15:27:06 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] "soft deprecation": use @status='deprecated' ? In-Reply-To: <51BF19B3.5050303@ultraslavonic.info> References: <50F2F37A.2070907@ultraslavonic.info> <50F3024F.8050807@uvic.ca> <97FD67C6-8408-484B-9C72-134E0C11CCC2@it.ox.ac.uk> <50F31809.9090405@retired.ox.ac.uk> <715CC0B8-F609-42CF-8B44-423D6EB77FD4@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <50F3201F.9090608@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F32ABF.3020403@retired.ox.ac.uk> <50F42FD9.5040500@uvic.ca> <50F8B442.4040802@ultraslavonic.info> <50F8C1A5.8050701@uvic.ca> <20831.3106.761143.147697@emt.ad.brown.edu> <515F2A07.9080701@uvic.ca> <20926.3656.800185.865662@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51BE10EB.2010308@ultraslavonic.info> <20927.5724.876465.244460@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51BF19B3.5050303@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51BF1CBA.90405@it.ox.ac.uk> Yes, definitely. No new work after Thursday (though we can be generous and say Thursday, midnight, in your time-zone). Then for the week after that only minor corrections, prose corrections, or release-blocking things already agreed by Council. I would also encourage Council members to update the status of their actions at: http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Council_actions_2013-04 -James On 17/06/13 15:14, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > I wasn't sure what exactly this ticket would be about, but I think I've > found it: > > https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/459/ > > I've just linked to this from what I think is the appropriate place on > the wiki page. > > Note that in the timeline that James set out in his 2013-06-14 email to > prepare for the next release, he proposed that we stop implementing new > things by 2103-06-20 -- this Thursday! > > On 6/17/2013 9:59 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: >> Excellent! I will add a ticket now, and address it this week if time >> permits (unliekly) or next week (when I'm devoting most my time to >> TEI). >> >>> I have attempted to list all of them at: >>> >>> http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Practices_no_longer_recommended_or_now_deprecated#5._Recent_.22deprecation.22_practices_to_be_reviewed >>> >>> As it happens, I hoping to return to this document later today. -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Mon Jun 17 13:23:14 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 13:23:14 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] task check / memory jog Message-ID: <20927.17922.632195.290559@emt.ad.brown.edu> I have an action "improve the elementSpec desc and add one or more examples". Reading the minutes, I'm pretty sure that I'm supposed to spiff up tagdoc for . Can anyone confirm or deny that's what it's supposed to be? -- Syd Bauman, EMT-Paramedic Senior XML Programmer/Analyst Brown University Women Writers Project Syd_Bauman at alumni.Brown.edu 401-863-3835 N.B.: New e-mail address as of 2013-07-01 will be s.bauman at neu.edu From mholmes at uvic.ca Mon Jun 17 14:58:29 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 11:58:29 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] task check / memory jog In-Reply-To: <20927.17922.632195.290559@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20927.17922.632195.290559@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <51BF5C55.1090108@uvic.ca> That's my memory of it. The current description of suggests that it's purely focused on assigning responsibility for decisions relating to markup, and not for other types of information, but at the meeting we decided that was overly restrictive, and that its description should be loosened up so that it could be used to assign responsibility for document content as well as encoding decisions. Cheers, Martin On 13-06-17 10:23 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > I have an action "improve the elementSpec desc and add one or more > examples". Reading the minutes, I'm pretty sure that I'm supposed to > spiff up tagdoc for . Can anyone confirm or deny that's what > it's supposed to be? > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Mon Jun 17 21:57:27 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 21:57:27 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] New Guidelines TOC In-Reply-To: <51B99A6E.7030105@kcl.ac.uk> References: <51B8F0CC.2030608@uvic.ca> <51B99A6E.7030105@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: So very much better. Many thanks for tackling this beast, Martin. Becky On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 6:09 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > I've just reminded myself of what the old index/toc look like, and I > have to say that--although I didn't think it was a big deal before--this > new index page is immeasurably better to work with. Many congratulations > and thanks Martin for coming up with this! > > Gabby > > On 2013-06-12 23:06, Martin Holmes wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> The work on this FR: >> >> >> >> is basically finished, and the results can be seen here: >> >> >> >> Many thanks to Sebastian for figuring out the final changes that needed >> to be made to the stylesheets to get the old index.html replaced by the >> new TOC output. >> >> I'm ready to close this ticket, unless there are any further objections. >> The only outstanding issue I'm aware of is that two people suggested >> that the links to e-book versions of the Guidelines should be repeated >> at the bottom of the page; I'm not keen on that myself, but it's an easy >> change if everyone would prefer it. >> >> If no objections in the next few days, I'll close the ticket. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > Researcher in Digital Epigraphy > > Digital Humanities > King's College London > Boris Karloff Building > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > > T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 06:39:20 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 11:39:20 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] SF: Allura Tickets 'Priority'. In-Reply-To: <51BF0EE0.8060009@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51BF0EE0.8060009@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C038D8.6020807@retired.ox.ac.uk> This reminds me to ask whether anyone shares my feeling that it would be more helpful to see ticket comments in reverse chronological order, i.e. with the most recent comment following the initial ticket text? Of course I don't know whether that's even do-able, but if it is, I'd find it a time saver, especially for tickets where the flow of comments is --shall we say-- somewhat meandering. On 17/06/13 14:28, James Cummings wrote: > Hiya, > > In response to one of my actions I've investigated and with a bit > of fiddling changed the priority field to be: "1(low) 2 3 4 > *"5(default)" 6 7 8 "9(high)" which means going forward the '1' > items will be '1(low)', etc. this is a bit awkward but better > than just a set of unglossed numbers. > > This is a 'select' field, the other options for ticket metadata > fields are: > 'text', 'number', 'boolean', 'milestone' and 'user', which aren't > as useful, I think, for this field. > > Let me know if anyone objects strongly to that, because I can > revert it, otherwise new tickets will start using these glossed > numbers. > > -James > From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 07:40:26 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:40:26 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] SF: Allura Tickets 'Priority'. In-Reply-To: <51C038D8.6020807@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51BF0EE0.8060009@it.ox.ac.uk> <51C038D8.6020807@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C0472A.70806@it.ox.ac.uk> On 18/06/13 11:39, Lou Burnard wrote: > This reminds me to ask whether anyone shares my feeling that it would be > more helpful to see ticket comments in reverse chronological order, > i.e. with the most recent comment following the initial ticket text? Of > course I don't know whether that's even do-able, but if it is, I'd find > it a time saver, especially for tickets where the flow of comments is > --shall we say-- somewhat meandering. A quick investigation of the Allura platform does not seem to turn up a way to do this for the ticket system as a whole, or indeed on a per user basis for comments inside a ticket. You can re-order tickets when listed in their table form (by clicking on the headings), but that doesn't really help with what you wanted. I too get confused not only by order of ticket comments (since in our request tracker here in Oxford I have them ordered so that most recent correspondence is first), but also when they spread over multiple pages. Can any of the other admin's or Council members see a way to modify this? Likewise, one of my actions is to investigate the use of Markdown markup and whether it can be turned off. So far I've not been able to find a way, but will email sourceforge about it at sometime soon. -James > > > On 17/06/13 14:28, James Cummings wrote: >> Hiya, >> >> In response to one of my actions I've investigated and with a bit >> of fiddling changed the priority field to be: "1(low) 2 3 4 >> *"5(default)" 6 7 8 "9(high)" which means going forward the '1' >> items will be '1(low)', etc. this is a bit awkward but better >> than just a set of unglossed numbers. >> >> This is a 'select' field, the other options for ticket metadata >> fields are: >> 'text', 'number', 'boolean', 'milestone' and 'user', which aren't >> as useful, I think, for this field. >> >> Let me know if anyone objects strongly to that, because I can >> revert it, otherwise new tickets will start using these glossed >> numbers. >> >> -James >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 10:55:01 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:55:01 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] attributes Message-ID: <51C074C5.9030202@kcl.ac.uk> In enacting ticket (adding examples of app without both lem and rdg, with example of note and pointing back to an element in the text being commented on), James and I have come to the opinion that the description of the @from/@to attributes is overly restrictive. I have used the @from attribute, as discussed in Providence, not to mark the beginning of a span using the double-end point method, but to indicate an element pointed to by means of a url rather than the "magic token" that is @loc. So far so uncontroversial. A note on @from (in ref-app) reads: "This attribute is only used when the double-end point method of apparatus markup is used." I propose to change this to: "This attribute should be used when the double-end point method of apparatus markup, or the location-referenced method with a URL rather than canonical reference, are used." The @to attribute is slightly different: that is still constrained to double-end point method. However, the note reads: "This attribute is only used when the double-end point method of apparatus markup is used, with the encoded apparatus held in a separate file rather than being embedded in-line in the base-text file." I think that last part is overly restrictive. Shouldn't it say something like: "This attribute is only used when the double-end point method of apparatus markup is used, with the encoded apparatus held in a separate file or division of the edition rather than being embedded in-line in the base-text." (Location-referenced apparatus can also include the apparatus in the same file, just not in the transcribed text section, neh?) If the latter is controversial, I'll just go ahead and make the former change for the time being. Stop me now, before I kill again.... -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jun 18 11:48:15 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:48:15 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] SF: Allura Tickets 'Priority'. In-Reply-To: <51C038D8.6020807@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51BF0EE0.8060009@it.ox.ac.uk> <51C038D8.6020807@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C0813F.5090601@uvic.ca> I'm not sure about this. It is annoying to have to page to the end of the ticket, and sometimes I add a comment based on the first page, forgetting there's more, but I'm getting used to it. Reading posts in reverse order is more confusing, especially if you're new to the ticket and it's a long one. On 13-06-18 03:39 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > This reminds me to ask whether anyone shares my feeling that it would be > more helpful to see ticket comments in reverse chronological order, > i.e. with the most recent comment following the initial ticket text? Of > course I don't know whether that's even do-able, but if it is, I'd find > it a time saver, especially for tickets where the flow of comments is > --shall we say-- somewhat meandering. > > > On 17/06/13 14:28, James Cummings wrote: >> Hiya, >> >> In response to one of my actions I've investigated and with a bit >> of fiddling changed the priority field to be: "1(low) 2 3 4 >> *"5(default)" 6 7 8 "9(high)" which means going forward the '1' >> items will be '1(low)', etc. this is a bit awkward but better >> than just a set of unglossed numbers. >> >> This is a 'select' field, the other options for ticket metadata >> fields are: >> 'text', 'number', 'boolean', 'milestone' and 'user', which aren't >> as useful, I think, for this field. >> >> Let me know if anyone objects strongly to that, because I can >> revert it, otherwise new tickets will start using these glossed >> numbers. >> >> -James >> > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 11:49:53 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:49:53 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] SF: Allura Tickets 'Priority'. In-Reply-To: <51C0813F.5090601@uvic.ca> References: <51BF0EE0.8060009@it.ox.ac.uk> <51C038D8.6020807@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C0813F.5090601@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51C081A1.8070303@kcl.ac.uk> I can sort of see Martin's point, yes. If at least the default number of comments visible were higher than ten (say 30, or 50) that would be a lot easier. On 2013-06-18 16:48, Martin Holmes wrote: > I'm not sure about this. It is annoying to have to page to the end of > the ticket, and sometimes I add a comment based on the first page, > forgetting there's more, but I'm getting used to it. Reading posts in > reverse order is more confusing, especially if you're new to the ticket > and it's a long one. > > On 13-06-18 03:39 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> This reminds me to ask whether anyone shares my feeling that it would be >> more helpful to see ticket comments in reverse chronological order, >> i.e. with the most recent comment following the initial ticket text? Of >> course I don't know whether that's even do-able, but if it is, I'd find >> it a time saver, especially for tickets where the flow of comments is >> --shall we say-- somewhat meandering. >> >> >> On 17/06/13 14:28, James Cummings wrote: >>> Hiya, >>> >>> In response to one of my actions I've investigated and with a bit >>> of fiddling changed the priority field to be: "1(low) 2 3 4 >>> *"5(default)" 6 7 8 "9(high)" which means going forward the '1' >>> items will be '1(low)', etc. this is a bit awkward but better >>> than just a set of unglossed numbers. >>> >>> This is a 'select' field, the other options for ticket metadata >>> fields are: >>> 'text', 'number', 'boolean', 'milestone' and 'user', which aren't >>> as useful, I think, for this field. >>> >>> Let me know if anyone objects strongly to that, because I can >>> revert it, otherwise new tickets will start using these glossed >>> numbers. >>> >>> -James >>> >> > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jun 18 11:57:11 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 08:57:11 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] attributes In-Reply-To: <51C074C5.9030202@kcl.ac.uk> References: <51C074C5.9030202@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C08357.8070003@uvic.ca> +1 from me on both points. On 13-06-18 07:55 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > In enacting ticket (adding > examples of app without both lem and rdg, with example of note and > pointing back to an element in the text being commented on), James and I > have come to the opinion that the description of the @from/@to > attributes is overly restrictive. > > I have used the @from attribute, as discussed in Providence, not to mark > the beginning of a span using the double-end point method, but to > indicate an element pointed to by means of a url rather than the "magic > token" that is @loc. So far so uncontroversial. > > A note on @from (in ref-app) reads: "This attribute is only used when > the double-end point method of apparatus markup is used." > > I propose to change this to: "This attribute should be used when the > double-end point method of apparatus markup, or the location-referenced > method with a URL rather than canonical reference, are used." > > The @to attribute is slightly different: that is still constrained to > double-end point method. However, the note reads: "This attribute is > only used when the double-end point method of apparatus markup is used, > with the encoded apparatus held in a separate file rather than being > embedded in-line in the base-text file." > > I think that last part is overly restrictive. Shouldn't it say something > like: "This attribute is only used when the double-end point method of > apparatus markup is used, with the encoded apparatus held in a separate > file or division of the edition rather than being embedded in-line in > the base-text." > > (Location-referenced apparatus can also include the apparatus in the > same file, just not in the transcribed text section, neh?) > > If the latter is controversial, I'll just go ahead and make the former > change for the time being. Stop me now, before I kill again.... > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 11:59:44 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:59:44 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] SF: Allura Tickets 'Priority'. In-Reply-To: <5bp43ffm759dl45gxr65v7ed.1371570745993@email.android.com> References: <51BF0EE0.8060009@it.ox.ac.uk> <51C038D8.6020807@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C0813F.5090601@uvic.ca>, <51C081A1.8070303@kcl.ac.uk> <5bp43ffm759dl45gxr65v7ed.1371570745993@email.android.com> Message-ID: <51C083F0.7040601@kcl.ac.uk> No, me either. I've been fiddling with the settings in the EpiDoc set (since I'm not an admin in TEI), and can't see any way to change these features. Will keep experimenting. On 2013-06-18 16:52, James Cummings wrote: > I've not found any way to change any of these aspects sadly. > > Happy to be corrected, > > James > > > > -- > Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford > > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Gabriel Bodard > Date: 2013/06/18 16:50 (GMT+00:00) > To: tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > Subject: Re: [tei-council] SF: Allura Tickets 'Priority'. > > > I can sort of see Martin's point, yes. If at least the default number of > comments visible were higher than ten (say 30, or 50) that would be a > lot easier. > > On 2013-06-18 16:48, Martin Holmes wrote: >> I'm not sure about this. It is annoying to have to page to the end of >> the ticket, and sometimes I add a comment based on the first page, >> forgetting there's more, but I'm getting used to it. Reading posts in >> reverse order is more confusing, especially if you're new to the ticket >> and it's a long one. >> >> On 13-06-18 03:39 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: >>> This reminds me to ask whether anyone shares my feeling that it would be >>> more helpful to see ticket comments in reverse chronological order, >>> i.e. with the most recent comment following the initial ticket text? Of >>> course I don't know whether that's even do-able, but if it is, I'd find >>> it a time saver, especially for tickets where the flow of comments is >>> --shall we say-- somewhat meandering. >>> >>> >>> On 17/06/13 14:28, James Cummings wrote: >>>> Hiya, >>>> >>>> In response to one of my actions I've investigated and with a bit >>>> of fiddling changed the priority field to be: "1(low) 2 3 4 >>>> *"5(default)" 6 7 8 "9(high)" which means going forward the '1' >>>> items will be '1(low)', etc. this is a bit awkward but better >>>> than just a set of unglossed numbers. >>>> >>>> This is a 'select' field, the other options for ticket metadata >>>> fields are: >>>> 'text', 'number', 'boolean', 'milestone' and 'user', which aren't >>>> as useful, I think, for this field. >>>> >>>> Let me know if anyone objects strongly to that, because I can >>>> revert it, otherwise new tickets will start using these glossed >>>> numbers. >>>> >>>> -James >>>> >>> >> > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > Researcher in Digital Epigraphy > > Digital Humanities > King's College London > Boris Karloff Building > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > > T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 11:59:42 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:59:42 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] attributes In-Reply-To: <51C08357.8070003@uvic.ca> References: <51C074C5.9030202@kcl.ac.uk> <51C08357.8070003@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51C083EE.4010606@retired.ox.ac.uk> Me too. This whole app-attachment thing is such a can of worms ... On 18/06/13 16:57, Martin Holmes wrote: > +1 from me on both points. > > On 13-06-18 07:55 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> In enacting ticket (adding >> examples of app without both lem and rdg, with example of note and >> pointing back to an element in the text being commented on), James and I >> have come to the opinion that the description of the @from/@to >> attributes is overly restrictive. >> >> I have used the @from attribute, as discussed in Providence, not to mark >> the beginning of a span using the double-end point method, but to >> indicate an element pointed to by means of a url rather than the "magic >> token" that is @loc. So far so uncontroversial. >> >> A note on @from (in ref-app) reads: "This attribute is only used when >> the double-end point method of apparatus markup is used." >> >> I propose to change this to: "This attribute should be used when the >> double-end point method of apparatus markup, or the location-referenced >> method with a URL rather than canonical reference, are used." >> >> The @to attribute is slightly different: that is still constrained to >> double-end point method. However, the note reads: "This attribute is >> only used when the double-end point method of apparatus markup is used, >> with the encoded apparatus held in a separate file rather than being >> embedded in-line in the base-text file." >> >> I think that last part is overly restrictive. Shouldn't it say something >> like: "This attribute is only used when the double-end point method of >> apparatus markup is used, with the encoded apparatus held in a separate >> file or division of the edition rather than being embedded in-line in >> the base-text." >> >> (Location-referenced apparatus can also include the apparatus in the >> same file, just not in the transcribed text section, neh?) >> >> If the latter is controversial, I'll just go ahead and make the former >> change for the time being. Stop me now, before I kill again.... >> >> From philomousos at gmail.com Tue Jun 18 12:07:48 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 12:07:48 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] attributes In-Reply-To: <51C074C5.9030202@kcl.ac.uk> References: <51C074C5.9030202@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <477A96AB-965F-490D-B96A-00074A9563F6@gmail.com> I can't see any sensible reason for the "in another file" stuff. Surely it could be in another part of the same file without any problem? How about: "This attribute is only used when the double-end point method of apparatus markup is used, when the encoded apparatus is not embedded in-line in the base text." On Jun 18, 2013, at 10:55 , Gabriel Bodard wrote: > The @to attribute is slightly different: that is still constrained to > double-end point method. However, the note reads: "This attribute is > only used when the double-end point method of apparatus markup is used, > with the encoded apparatus held in a separate file rather than being > embedded in-line in the base-text file." From bbarney2 at unl.edu Tue Jun 18 12:16:38 2013 From: bbarney2 at unl.edu (Brett Barney) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:16:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] New Guidelines TOC In-Reply-To: References: <51B8F0CC.2030608@uvic.ca> <51B99A6E.7030105@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <154FBDF9-9763-4326-BCA2-DECEA9803449@unl.edu> Hear, hear! On Jun 17, 2013, at 8:57 PM, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: > So very much better. Many thanks for tackling this beast, Martin. > > Becky > > On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 6:09 AM, Gabriel Bodard > wrote: >> I've just reminded myself of what the old index/toc look like, and I >> have to say that--although I didn't think it was a big deal before--this >> new index page is immeasurably better to work with. Many congratulations >> and thanks Martin for coming up with this! >> >> Gabby >> >> On 2013-06-12 23:06, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> The work on this FR: >>> >>> >>> >>> is basically finished, and the results can be seen here: >>> >>> >>> >>> Many thanks to Sebastian for figuring out the final changes that needed >>> to be made to the stylesheets to get the old index.html replaced by the >>> new TOC output. >>> >>> I'm ready to close this ticket, unless there are any further objections. >>> The only outstanding issue I'm aware of is that two people suggested >>> that the links to e-book versions of the Guidelines should be repeated >>> at the bottom of the page; I'm not keen on that myself, but it's an easy >>> change if everyone would prefer it. >>> >>> If no objections in the next few days, I'll close the ticket. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >> >> -- >> Dr Gabriel BODARD >> Researcher in Digital Epigraphy >> >> Digital Humanities >> King's College London >> Boris Karloff Building >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL >> >> T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 >> E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk >> >> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ >> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ >> >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > ---------------- Brett Barney Associate Research Professor Center for Digital Research in the Humanities bbarney2 at unl.edu From mholmes at uvic.ca Tue Jun 18 12:43:35 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 09:43:35 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] New Guidelines TOC In-Reply-To: <154FBDF9-9763-4326-BCA2-DECEA9803449@unl.edu> References: <51B8F0CC.2030608@uvic.ca> <51B99A6E.7030105@kcl.ac.uk> <154FBDF9-9763-4326-BCA2-DECEA9803449@unl.edu> Message-ID: <51C08E37.70007@uvic.ca> This was really a everyone's work -- lots of useful input from the whole Council as well as a few people from TEI-L, and indispensable help from Sebastian with the final implementation in the stylesheets. I just put in a fix for another little annoyance that's been bugging me: the lack of a margin between the numbered list in the bibliography and the mini-table-of-contents on the left of the page -- compare the old: with the new: I noticed one other oddity on that page: if you mouse over (for instance) "Appendix E Datatypes and other Macros in the mini-toc in the top left, only the first word is actually a link; the rest looks the same (blue), but isn't actually part of the link. This is only true for F3, E and G; the first two links are OK. I'm going to have a look at that when I get the chance. Are there any more cosmetic issues you've noticed that we could address before the release? Cheers, Martin On 13-06-18 09:16 AM, Brett Barney wrote: > Hear, hear! > > On Jun 17, 2013, at 8:57 PM, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: > >> So very much better. Many thanks for tackling this beast, Martin. >> >> Becky >> >> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 6:09 AM, Gabriel Bodard >> wrote: >>> I've just reminded myself of what the old index/toc look like, and I >>> have to say that--although I didn't think it was a big deal before--this >>> new index page is immeasurably better to work with. Many congratulations >>> and thanks Martin for coming up with this! >>> >>> Gabby >>> >>> On 2013-06-12 23:06, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> The work on this FR: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> is basically finished, and the results can be seen here: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Many thanks to Sebastian for figuring out the final changes that needed >>>> to be made to the stylesheets to get the old index.html replaced by the >>>> new TOC output. >>>> >>>> I'm ready to close this ticket, unless there are any further objections. >>>> The only outstanding issue I'm aware of is that two people suggested >>>> that the links to e-book versions of the Guidelines should be repeated >>>> at the bottom of the page; I'm not keen on that myself, but it's an easy >>>> change if everyone would prefer it. >>>> >>>> If no objections in the next few days, I'll close the ticket. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Dr Gabriel BODARD >>> Researcher in Digital Epigraphy >>> >>> Digital Humanities >>> King's College London >>> Boris Karloff Building >>> 26-29 Drury Lane >>> London WC2B 5RL >>> >>> T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 >>> E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk >>> >>> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ >>> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ >>> >>> -- >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> > > ---------------- > Brett Barney > Associate Research Professor > Center for Digital Research in the Humanities > bbarney2 at unl.edu > > > > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jun 18 13:37:52 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 18:37:52 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] attributes In-Reply-To: <477A96AB-965F-490D-B96A-00074A9563F6@gmail.com> References: <51C074C5.9030202@kcl.ac.uk> <477A96AB-965F-490D-B96A-00074A9563F6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51C09AF0.5010002@kcl.ac.uk> I've made the change in svn (r12278), with the note on @to as I suggested originally, and the note on @from as Hugh suggests below. G On 2013-06-18 17:07, Hugh Cayless wrote: > I can't see any sensible reason for the "in another file" stuff. Surely it could be in another part of the same file without any problem? > > How about: > > "This attribute is only used when the double-end point method of apparatus markup is used, when the encoded apparatus is not embedded in-line in the base text." > > On Jun 18, 2013, at 10:55 , Gabriel Bodard wrote: > >> The @to attribute is slightly different: that is still constrained to >> double-end point method. However, the note reads: "This attribute is >> only used when the double-end point method of apparatus markup is used, >> with the encoded apparatus held in a separate file rather than being >> embedded in-line in the base-text file." > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Wed Jun 19 11:33:43 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 16:33:43 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: [tei:feature-requests] #452 should be a member of att.typed In-Reply-To:

          References:

          Message-ID: <51C1CF57.2080007@retired.ox.ac.uk> This seems uncontroversial, if a bit weird, to me. Someone like to agree on the ticket so I can do it? -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [tei:feature-requests] #452 should be a member of att.typed Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 15:28:22 +0000 From: Lou Burnard Reply-To: [tei:feature-requests] <452 at feature-requests.tei.p.re.sf.net> To: [tei:feature-requests] <452 at feature-requests.tei.p.re.sf.net> Thanks for the example. I can see no logical reason why we shouldn't allow @type on || in the same way as we do on || and | . However, I am quite curious about the reasons that led you to treat each chapter as a single text, rather than as a div. To my mind a chapter is an incomplete object, whereas the definition (admittedly rather vague) of a || suggests that it is complete in itself. I don't know enough (or anything much!) about this material so I cannot judge how pertinent that distinction is to your work. However, as aforesaid, I see no problem in adding @type to ||. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *[feature-requests:#452] should be a member of att.typed* *Status:* open *Created:* Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:56 AM UTC by Frederik *Last Updated:* Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:51 PM UTC *Owner:* nobody When grouping texts, and especially with nested group hierarchies, it would be helpful to assign a type to a group. If one regards as a means to create hierarchies of texts, just like
          is a mean to create hierarchies within texts, the same logic of distinguishing hierarchical elements by a type applies. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sent from sourceforge.net because you indicated interest in https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/452/ To unsubscribe from further messages, please visit https://sourceforge.net/auth/subscriptions/ From philomousos at gmail.com Wed Jun 19 14:10:33 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2013 14:10:33 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Planning next face2face meeting In-Reply-To: References: <51B601FB.9080008@it.ox.ac.uk> <51B6F5F9.8010203@kcl.ac.uk> <1370961114.25026.140661242593461.0FF80768@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <4A2D1FEE-3257-444C-BE4C-FC21B00DDF05@gmail.com> I'm available from Nov. 11th onward, but will need to be home by the 27th. Hugh On Jun 11, 2013, at 15:27 , "Mylonas, Elli" wrote: > No real preference, I'd like to be home for Thanksgiving, however, > which is November 28 this year. So perhaps not available later than > the 24th, or even a bit earlier. > > --elli > > On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Paul Schaffner wrote: >> Ditto to what Becky said. pfs >> >> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013, at 8:15, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: >>> I would also be fine with Oxford in November, and thought Wolfson >>> worked just fine as a place to stay and to meet. It may be worth >>> noting that last year, because the EEBO-TCP conference and TEI Council >>> meeting were back to back, the TCP absorbed the cost of Paul's and my >>> airfare. I don't expect we'd be able to do that for the meeting this >>> fall, especially given that we'll be making the same trip in >>> September. >>> >>> I'm free November 10-24, as well as pretty much all of October. >>> >>> Becky >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:03 AM, Gabriel Bodard >>> wrote: >>>> On 2013-06-10 17:42, James Cummings wrote: >>>>> 1) Do you have a strong preference for Oxford or Ann Arbor; I'm >>>>> assuming Oxford is better choice this time and seems fairer on >>>>> this year's elected Americans (in getting a trip to the UK). >>>> >>>> I prefer Oxford, for the opposite reason to that implied: I don't think >>>> I can stand another intercontinental trip in this already busy year! I >>>> can also help save a bit of money if someone (e.g. Hugh or Elli or both) >>>> don't mind commuting instead of staying at Wolfson or wherever. (Otoh, I >>>> could save even more money if we go to the US by Skyping in instead of >>>> attending in person. :-) ) >>>> >>>>> 2) Do you have a strong preference for timing? I'm leaning to >>>>> mid-November myself but other than having a massively busy >>>>> Sept/October I've no other reason. I'll put up a doodle poll >>>>> eventually to get more precise availability but happy to rule out >>>>> things in advance. >>>> >>>> September would be impossible for me, with trips to Bulgaria, Spain and >>>> Italy already lined up. Later October or November currently seem fine >>>> (although may clash with teaching). >>>> >>>>> 3) Our last face2face meeting in Oxford was partly at Wolfson >>>>> College; were those who attended that ok with that as a meeting >>>>> venue? (We have a good relationship with them since out >>>>> Digital.Humanities @ Oxford Summer School is there.) I am >>>>> investigating that as a possibility but can look for other venues >>>>> if people were dissatisfied with that one. >>>> >>>> As a meeting venue it seemed fine, yes. A bit of a trek from the train >>>> station for those of us commuting, but that's not a dealbreaker. (And >>>> was an excuse to be lazy and take a cab!) >>>> >>>> G >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dr Gabriel BODARD >>>> Researcher in Digital Epigraphy >>>> >>>> Digital Humanities >>>> King's College London >>>> Boris Karloff Building >>>> 26-29 Drury Lane >>>> London WC2B 5RL >>>> >>>> T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 >>>> E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk >>>> >>>> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ >>>> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ >>>> >>>> -- >>>> tei-council mailing list >>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>>> >>>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >>> -- >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >>> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> -- >> Paul Schaffner Digital Library Production Service >> PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ >> >> >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 00:36:34 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 00:36:34 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] new validUntil= In-Reply-To: <519546EA.4030304@ultraslavonic.info> References: <20885.13107.61313.72062@emt.ad.brown.edu> <519546EA.4030304@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51C286D2.90504@ultraslavonic.info> On 5/16/13 4:51 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 5/16/2013 3:27 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: >> 4. status of "deprecated" of status= >> -- ------ -- ------------ -- ------- >> I presume that the "deprecated" value of the status= attribute of >> att.identified is the first thing to be deprecated with the new >> validUntil= attribute, and have done so. Should the entire status= >> attribute of att.identified be deprecated by validUntil=, or do we >> think status= still serves a purpose? We do not (currently) use any >> value other than "deprecated" in the source of the Guidelines. > > When we first implemented this ( > http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/118/#724e ), we had in > mind other values, but we haven't used them. On reflection, I don't > think we generally introduce things we consider unstable, and if we do, > we don't know at the time whether they will end up being unstable. So I > think we should just deprecate the whole @status attribute. I've noted > this at > > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Practices_no_longer_recommended_or_now_deprecated#1._Decide_remaining_questions And I have now deprecated the entire @status attribute (by using @validUntil, per TCW27) while cleaning up past "deprecations" to follow the policy in TCW27. (For more on that, see: http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Practices_no_longer_recommended_or_now_deprecated#5._Recent_.22deprecations.22_to_be_reviewed .) --Kevin From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 00:40:47 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 00:40:47 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <51716245.6080907@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> <51716245.6080907@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51C287CF.3060107@ultraslavonic.info> On 4/19/13 11:27 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> On 4/19/2013 6:47 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> On 2013-04-19 09:42, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> b) we can automate the check in 3. of the wiki page. i.e. don't >>> ask people to go grepping, but instead add to the build checks so >>> that a validUntil which is less than 6 months away from todays date >>> generates a warning and a validUntil which is after todays date >>> generates an error. This will cause Jenkins to fail the build if we >>> ignore a validUntil date. >>> c) for 1 B, i would suggest a formal process whereby the release >>> notes have a section listing all the Specs waiting on death row, with >>> their date. so we write a script >>> to generate a section for inclusion in the notes. anything which cane >>> be automated, lets automate... >> >> Agreed. Neither of these means that no human has to look at the >> deprecation and take an action (meaning that decisions can and will be >> reviewed), but they also help to make sure we don't lose sight of things >> we've planned to do or people we should have warned. > > Sebastian's idea is a good one. I've noted in the wiki. While implementing those past deprecations according to our policy, I set some @validUntil dates that are in the past. These yielded Schematron errors that cause Jenkins to fail, so it appears Sebastian implemented something he suggested back in April. If everyone is satisfied with the way this is working and feels that we've given enough notice for deprecation on these (despite not having Schematron warnings as part of our releases for the past two years) I suggest we actually go ahead and remove these deprecated things. K. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 04:26:49 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:26:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <51C287CF.3060107@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> <51716245.6080907@ultraslavonic.info> <51C287CF.3060107@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3D1A98@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 20 Jun 2013, at 05:40, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > While implementing those past deprecations according to our policy, I > set some @validUntil dates that are in the past. These yielded > Schematron errors that cause Jenkins to fail, so it appears Sebastian > implemented something he suggested back in April. > not me, that's Syd's work :-} > If everyone is satisfied with the way this is working and feels that > we've given enough notice for deprecation on these (despite not having > Schematron warnings as part of our releases for the past two years) I > suggest we actually go ahead and remove these deprecated things. given that the deadline for changes is today, I'd be inclined to not risk it. unlike me to be cautious, I know?. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 05:55:36 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:55:36 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <51C287CF.3060107@ultraslavonic.info> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> <51716245.6080907@ultraslavonic.info> <51C287CF.3060107@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51C2D198.6050004@kcl.ac.uk> What are those handful of things overdue for deprecation? I bet hearing about them might convince some of us they're better killed sooner than later! :-) (If not, should we put everything at least six months in the future from now, to give our new procedures and tests time to take effect?) G On 2013-06-20 05:40, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 4/19/13 11:27 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> On 4/19/2013 6:47 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>> On 2013-04-19 09:42, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>> b) we can automate the check in 3. of the wiki page. i.e. don't >>>> ask people to go grepping, but instead add to the build checks so >>>> that a validUntil which is less than 6 months away from todays date >>>> generates a warning and a validUntil which is after todays date >>>> generates an error. This will cause Jenkins to fail the build if we >>>> ignore a validUntil date. >>>> c) for 1 B, i would suggest a formal process whereby the release >>>> notes have a section listing all the Specs waiting on death row, with >>>> their date. so we write a script >>>> to generate a section for inclusion in the notes. anything which cane >>>> be automated, lets automate... >>> >>> Agreed. Neither of these means that no human has to look at the >>> deprecation and take an action (meaning that decisions can and will be >>> reviewed), but they also help to make sure we don't lose sight of things >>> we've planned to do or people we should have warned. >> >> Sebastian's idea is a good one. I've noted in the wiki. > > While implementing those past deprecations according to our policy, I > set some @validUntil dates that are in the past. These yielded > Schematron errors that cause Jenkins to fail, so it appears Sebastian > implemented something he suggested back in April. > > If everyone is satisfied with the way this is working and feels that > we've given enough notice for deprecation on these (despite not having > Schematron warnings as part of our releases for the past two years) I > suggest we actually go ahead and remove these deprecated things. > > K. > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 07:20:23 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:20:23 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <51C2D198.6050004@kcl.ac.uk> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> <51716245.6080907@ultraslavonic.info> <51C287CF.3060107@ultraslavonic.info> <51C2D198.6050004@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C2E577.3020608@it.ox.ac.uk> I'm with Sebastian and Gaby's second paragraph here. I'd say since we're introducing this deprecation feature to set any legacy ones to be something like 2013-12-11 just to test our features etc. Does that mean if something ends up fully deprecated and its validUntil is just a day before release date that we need to have removed it before release? That is good but also means that when we freeze for release we need to check that nothing deprecated is occurring is only valid until slightly less than the next couple weeks. :-) -James On 20/06/13 10:55, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > What are those handful of things overdue for deprecation? I bet hearing > about them might convince some of us they're better killed sooner than > later! :-) > > (If not, should we put everything at least six months in the future from > now, to give our new procedures and tests time to take effect?) > > G > > On 2013-06-20 05:40, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> On 4/19/13 11:27 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>> On 4/19/2013 6:47 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>> On 2013-04-19 09:42, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>>> b) we can automate the check in 3. of the wiki page. i.e. don't >>>>> ask people to go grepping, but instead add to the build checks so >>>>> that a validUntil which is less than 6 months away from todays date >>>>> generates a warning and a validUntil which is after todays date >>>>> generates an error. This will cause Jenkins to fail the build if we >>>>> ignore a validUntil date. >>>>> c) for 1 B, i would suggest a formal process whereby the release >>>>> notes have a section listing all the Specs waiting on death row, with >>>>> their date. so we write a script >>>>> to generate a section for inclusion in the notes. anything which cane >>>>> be automated, lets automate... >>>> >>>> Agreed. Neither of these means that no human has to look at the >>>> deprecation and take an action (meaning that decisions can and will be >>>> reviewed), but they also help to make sure we don't lose sight of things >>>> we've planned to do or people we should have warned. >>> >>> Sebastian's idea is a good one. I've noted in the wiki. >> >> While implementing those past deprecations according to our policy, I >> set some @validUntil dates that are in the past. These yielded >> Schematron errors that cause Jenkins to fail, so it appears Sebastian >> implemented something he suggested back in April. >> >> If everyone is satisfied with the way this is working and feels that >> we've given enough notice for deprecation on these (despite not having >> Schematron warnings as part of our releases for the past two years) I >> suggest we actually go ahead and remove these deprecated things. >> >> K. >> > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jun 20 08:25:09 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 05:25:09 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <51C2D198.6050004@kcl.ac.uk> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> <51716245.6080907@ultraslavonic.info> <51C287CF.3060107@ultraslavonic.info> <51C2D198.6050004@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C2F4A5.9040304@uvic.ca> I would suggest setting the validUntil date three months in the future for these long-deprecated things. That would mean: - Nothing could be expected to break ahead of this release, so we won't have any last-minute panics; - Things will start to break long in advance of the next release, so we will have time to work through the removal process with no looming deadlines. Cheers, Martin On 13-06-20 02:55 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > What are those handful of things overdue for deprecation? I bet hearing > about them might convince some of us they're better killed sooner than > later! :-) > > (If not, should we put everything at least six months in the future from > now, to give our new procedures and tests time to take effect?) > > G > > On 2013-06-20 05:40, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> On 4/19/13 11:27 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>> On 4/19/2013 6:47 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>> On 2013-04-19 09:42, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>>> b) we can automate the check in 3. of the wiki page. i.e. don't >>>>> ask people to go grepping, but instead add to the build checks so >>>>> that a validUntil which is less than 6 months away from todays date >>>>> generates a warning and a validUntil which is after todays date >>>>> generates an error. This will cause Jenkins to fail the build if we >>>>> ignore a validUntil date. >>>>> c) for 1 B, i would suggest a formal process whereby the release >>>>> notes have a section listing all the Specs waiting on death row, with >>>>> their date. so we write a script >>>>> to generate a section for inclusion in the notes. anything which cane >>>>> be automated, lets automate... >>>> >>>> Agreed. Neither of these means that no human has to look at the >>>> deprecation and take an action (meaning that decisions can and will be >>>> reviewed), but they also help to make sure we don't lose sight of things >>>> we've planned to do or people we should have warned. >>> >>> Sebastian's idea is a good one. I've noted in the wiki. >> >> While implementing those past deprecations according to our policy, I >> set some @validUntil dates that are in the past. These yielded >> Schematron errors that cause Jenkins to fail, so it appears Sebastian >> implemented something he suggested back in April. >> >> If everyone is satisfied with the way this is working and feels that >> we've given enough notice for deprecation on these (despite not having >> Schematron warnings as part of our releases for the past two years) I >> suggest we actually go ahead and remove these deprecated things. >> >> K. >> > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 08:35:02 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:35:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <51C2E577.3020608@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> <51716245.6080907@ultraslavonic.info> <51C287CF.3060107@ultraslavonic.info> <51C2D198.6050004@kcl.ac.uk> <51C2E577.3020608@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On 20 Jun 2013, at 12:20, James Cummings wrote: > Does that mean if something ends up fully deprecated and its > validUntil is just a day before release date that we need to have > removed it before release? That is good but also means that when > we freeze for release we need to check that nothing deprecated is > occurring is only valid until slightly less than the next couple > weeks. :-) you can add another Schematron which fires on D-Day minus 30. its in att.deprecated.xml -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 09:22:04 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:22:04 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <51C2F4A5.9040304@uvic.ca> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> <51716245.6080907@ultraslavonic.info> <51C287CF.3060107@ultraslavonic.info> <51C2D198.6050004@kcl.ac.uk> <51C2F4A5.9040304@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51C301FC.1080103@ultraslavonic.info> Okay, I have pushed back the values of @validUntil on deprecation of @targets on , , and to three months from now. This will, I hope, fix the Jenkins build, and as Martin notes below, this will give time to work through the process properly. On 6/20/13 8:25 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > I would suggest setting the validUntil date three months in the future > for these long-deprecated things. That would mean: > > - Nothing could be expected to break ahead of this release, so we > won't have any last-minute panics; > > - Things will start to break long in advance of the next release, so > we will have time to work through the removal process with no looming > deadlines. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-06-20 02:55 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> What are those handful of things overdue for deprecation? I bet hearing >> about them might convince some of us they're better killed sooner than >> later! :-) >> >> (If not, should we put everything at least six months in the future from >> now, to give our new procedures and tests time to take effect?) >> >> G >> >> On 2013-06-20 05:40, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>> On 4/19/13 11:27 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >>>>> On 4/19/2013 6:47 AM, Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>>> On 2013-04-19 09:42, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>>>>> b) we can automate the check in 3. of the wiki page. i.e. don't >>>>>> ask people to go grepping, but instead add to the build checks so >>>>>> that a validUntil which is less than 6 months away from todays date >>>>>> generates a warning and a validUntil which is after todays date >>>>>> generates an error. This will cause Jenkins to fail the build if we >>>>>> ignore a validUntil date. >>>>>> c) for 1 B, i would suggest a formal process whereby the release >>>>>> notes have a section listing all the Specs waiting on death row, with >>>>>> their date. so we write a script >>>>>> to generate a section for inclusion in the notes. anything which cane >>>>>> be automated, lets automate... >>>>> >>>>> Agreed. Neither of these means that no human has to look at the >>>>> deprecation and take an action (meaning that decisions can and will be >>>>> reviewed), but they also help to make sure we don't lose sight of things >>>>> we've planned to do or people we should have warned. >>>> >>>> Sebastian's idea is a good one. I've noted in the wiki. >>> >>> While implementing those past deprecations according to our policy, I >>> set some @validUntil dates that are in the past. These yielded >>> Schematron errors that cause Jenkins to fail, so it appears Sebastian >>> implemented something he suggested back in April. >>> >>> If everyone is satisfied with the way this is working and feels that >>> we've given enough notice for deprecation on these (despite not having >>> Schematron warnings as part of our releases for the past two years) I >>> suggest we actually go ahead and remove these deprecated things. >>> >>> K. >>> >> From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 09:25:10 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:25:10 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> <51716245.6080907@ultraslavonic.info> <51C287CF.3060107@ultraslavonic.info> <51C2D198.6050004@kcl.ac.uk> <51C2E577.3020608@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C302B6.5050007@ultraslavonic.info> On 6/20/13 8:35 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 20 Jun 2013, at 12:20, James Cummings > wrote: > >> Does that mean if something ends up fully deprecated and its >> validUntil is just a day before release date that we need to have >> removed it before release? That is good but also means that when >> we freeze for release we need to check that nothing deprecated is >> occurring is only valid until slightly less than the next couple >> weeks. :-) > > you can add another Schematron which fires on D-Day minus 30. > > its in att.deprecated.xml Good idea. I have noted at https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/459/ . --K. From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Thu Jun 20 09:40:15 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:40:15 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Message-ID: Hi folks, I am implementing http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/377. We agreed in Oxford to define a new element, , which would be part of the , and allow an encoder to document how they have treated a source text's punctuation marks in their TEI document. This element is meant to work something like , but be more broadly applicable for bits of punctuation other than quotation marks. I'm about ready to try adding the new element spec (and seeing if anything breaks!). However, I want to check on a couple of things: 1) Originally, we agreed that this new element should belong to model.encodingDescPart (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-model.encodingDescPart.html). However, it looks to me now like it fits much more sensibly in model.editorialDeclPart (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-model.editorialDeclPart.html), along with , , , etc. Documenting the treatment of punctuation clearly falls under providing "details of editorial principles and practices applied during the encoding of a text." And I don't think we want floating around outside of . Do you agree that should instead be a member of model.editorialDeclPart, or is there good reason to stick with the original proposal to make it a member of model.encodingDescPart? 2) As well as allowing prose content to describe the project's policy for handling punctuation marks, we agreed to add some relevant attributes. I propose the following: @marks : Just like on , this would be an optional attribute of the dataype data.enumerated, with permitted values of "none", "some", or "all" to indicate whether punctuation marks from the source text have been retained in the TEI document. @location: this would be an optional attribute, datatype data.enumerated, with permitted values of "internal" or "external" to indicate whether retained punctuation marks are captured as content within adjacent elements or placed outside of them. My model here was the use of @location on , although the usage of "internal" and "external" is not quite consistent between these two. Do these two attributes seem appropriate? Sufficient? Suitably named and defined? Of course, once the spec is in place and not broken I will also add prose to 2.3 (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/HD.html#HD5) and 3.2 (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CO.html#COPU) of the Guidelines to describe this change. Thanks for your advice, Becky From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 09:41:41 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:41:41 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines Message-ID: <51C30695.9020502@ultraslavonic.info> It seems that the presence of @validUntil causes "(deprecated)" to appear in red, just as was the case for @status='deprecated'. For example: http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-biblScope.html But according to our plan at: http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Deprecation#4._Add_handling_of_.40validUntil_to_stylesheets_for_generating_Guidelines we are going to display the date that something is valid until. Maybe we could get this in before the next release? K. From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 09:47:33 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 14:47:33 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3D5304@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> <51716245.6080907@ultraslavonic.info> <51C287CF.3060107@ultraslavonic.info> <51C2D198.6050004@kcl.ac.uk> <51C2E577.3020608@it.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3D5304@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C307F5.2060200@it.ox.ac.uk> On 20/06/13 13:35, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > you can add another Schematron which fires on D-Day minus 30. > > its in att.deprecated.xml Just double checking before I add it... am I doing the date arithmetic correctly there? construct is outdated (as of ); ODD processors may ignore it, and it should probably be removed I think that (30*xs:dayTimeDuration('P1D')) should do what I want? -james -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 09:50:48 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 14:50:48 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51C308B8.5090907@kcl.ac.uk> (1) sounds very reasonable to me (as Kevin has just noted on the ticket too). (2) sounds good too. I can't think of anything else to add. +1 On 2013-06-20 14:40, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: > Hi folks, > > I am implementing http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/377. > We agreed in Oxford to define a new element, , which > would be part of the , and allow an encoder to document > how they have treated a source text's punctuation marks in their TEI > document. > > This element is meant to work something like , but be more > broadly applicable for bits of punctuation other than quotation marks. > I'm about ready to try adding the new element spec (and seeing if > anything breaks!). However, I want to check on a couple of things: > > 1) Originally, we agreed that this new element should belong to > model.encodingDescPart > (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-model.encodingDescPart.html). > However, it looks to me now like it fits much more sensibly in > model.editorialDeclPart > (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-model.editorialDeclPart.html), > along with , , , etc. > > Documenting the treatment of punctuation clearly falls under providing > "details of editorial principles and practices applied during the > encoding of a text." And I don't think we want floating > around outside of . > > Do you agree that should instead be a member of > model.editorialDeclPart, or is there good reason to stick with the > original proposal to make it a member of model.encodingDescPart? > > 2) As well as allowing prose content to describe the project's policy > for handling punctuation marks, we agreed to add some relevant > attributes. I propose the following: > > @marks : Just like on , this would be an optional attribute > of the dataype data.enumerated, with permitted values of "none", > "some", or "all" to indicate whether punctuation marks from the source > text have been retained in the TEI document. > > @location: this would be an optional attribute, datatype > data.enumerated, with permitted values of "internal" or "external" to > indicate whether retained punctuation marks are captured as content > within adjacent elements or placed outside of them. > > My model here was the use of @location on , although > the usage of "internal" and "external" is not quite consistent between > these two. > > Do these two attributes seem appropriate? Sufficient? Suitably named > and defined? > > Of course, once the spec is in place and not broken I will also add > prose to 2.3 (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/HD.html#HD5) > and 3.2 (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CO.html#COPU) > of the Guidelines to describe this change. > > Thanks for your advice, > Becky > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 09:53:10 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 09:53:10 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51C30946.2080707@ultraslavonic.info> Ah, someone else trying to sneak in changes past the deadline! ;-) On 6/20/13 9:40 AM, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: > 1) Originally, we agreed that this new element should belong to > model.encodingDescPart > (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-model.encodingDescPart.html). > However, it looks to me now like it fits much more sensibly in > model.editorialDeclPart > (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-model.editorialDeclPart.html), > along with , , , etc. > > Documenting the treatment of punctuation clearly falls under providing > "details of editorial principles and practices applied during the > encoding of a text." And I don't think we want floating > around outside of . > > Do you agree that should instead be a member of > model.editorialDeclPart, or is there good reason to stick with the > original proposal to make it a member of model.encodingDescPart? As I've just posted on the ticket, I believe that's a mistake in the minutes and our summary. > 2) As well as allowing prose content to describe the project's policy > for handling punctuation marks, we agreed to add some relevant > attributes. I propose the following: > > @marks : Just like on , this would be an optional attribute > of the dataype data.enumerated, with permitted values of "none", > "some", or "all" to indicate whether punctuation marks from the source > text have been retained in the TEI document. Seems right, except that we should probably create an attribute class for @marks since it's now identical on these two elements. If you manage to implement the rest of this before the deadline, I guess just create a separate ticket for it. If not, maybe it can all be done at once in time for the following release. > @location: this would be an optional attribute, datatype > data.enumerated, with permitted values of "internal" or "external" to > indicate whether retained punctuation marks are captured as content > within adjacent elements or placed outside of them. > > My model here was the use of @location on , although > the usage of "internal" and "external" is not quite consistent between > these two. Instead of "within adjacent elements", I prefer "within adjacent tags" to make it clear that we're not talking about another opening and closing tag pair that happens to be nearby. ( Other things equal, I prefer that we avoid having attributes with the same name that work differently on different elements. But I don't have a better name for what we need on than @location. --K. From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 09:54:59 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 14:54:59 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51C309B3.4050609@it.ox.ac.uk> On 20/06/13 14:40, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: > 1) Originally, we agreed that this new element should belong to > model.encodingDescPart > Do you agree that should instead be a member of > model.editorialDeclPart, or is there good reason to stick with the > original proposal to make it a member of model.encodingDescPart? No I think that is a mistake in the minutes or our understanding. should definitely go next to things like and in editorialDeclPart > 2) As well as allowing prose content to describe the project's policy > for handling punctuation marks, we agreed to add some relevant > attributes. I propose the following: > > @marks : Just like on , this would be an optional attribute > of the dataype data.enumerated, with permitted values of "none", > "some", or "all" to indicate whether punctuation marks from the source > text have been retained in the TEI document. Seems reasonable. > @location: this would be an optional attribute, datatype > data.enumerated, with permitted values of "internal" or "external" to > indicate whether retained punctuation marks are captured as content > within adjacent elements or placed outside of them. that took me a second to understand, but yes, that makes sense as well. > Do these two attributes seem appropriate? Sufficient? Suitably named > and defined? Yes. > Of course, once the spec is in place and not broken I will also add > prose to 2.3 (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/HD.html#HD5) > and 3.2 (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CO.html#COPU) > of the Guidelines to describe this change. good. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 09:59:29 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 13:59:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <51C30695.9020502@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51C30695.9020502@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3D6249@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 20 Jun 2013, at 14:41, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > It seems that the presence of @validUntil causes "(deprecated)" to > appear in red, just as was the case for @status='deprecated'. For example: > > http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-biblScope.html > > But according to our plan at: > > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Deprecation#4._Add_handling_of_.40validUntil_to_stylesheets_for_generating_Guidelines > > we are going to display the date that something is valid until. Maybe > we could get this in before the next release? i was told by Head Teacher not to touch the stylesheets? please sir, James sir, can I have an exeat oh plis you mite oh sir -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 10:00:36 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 15:00:36 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <51C30695.9020502@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51C30695.9020502@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51C30B04.3080506@it.ox.ac.uk> On 20/06/13 14:41, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > we are going to display the date that something is valid until. Maybe > we could get this in before the next release? This is currently added in CSS as: /* status notation */ .status_deprecated:after { content: " (deprecated)"; color: red; I guess it would make more sense to move it to the XSLT if we're putting the precise date. -James -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 10:00:38 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 14:00:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <51C307F5.2060200@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> <51716245.6080907@ultraslavonic.info> <51C287CF.3060107@ultraslavonic.info> <51C2D198.6050004@kcl.ac.uk> <51C2E577.3020608@it.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3D5304@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51C307F5.2060200@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <9ba3d5b5-4f37-421a-a805-bfef034022a2@HUB03.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 20 Jun 2013, at 14:47, James Cummings wrote: > On 20/06/13 13:35, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> you can add another Schematron which fires on D-Day minus 30. >> >> its in att.deprecated.xml > > Just double checking before I add it... am I doing the date arithmetic correctly there? > > > > construct is outdated (as of ); ODD processors may ignore it, and it should probably be removed > > > I think that (30*xs:dayTimeDuration('P1D')) should do what I want? i am in awe at your knowledge. if it works it works?. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 10:08:01 2013 From: james.cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 14:08:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3D6249@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51C30695.9020502@ultraslavonic.info>, <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3D6249@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <331d31db-338f-499c-a331-93663d648150@HUB02.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> You have until the end of today. ;-) James -- Dr James Cummings, Academic IT Services, University of Oxford -------- Original message -------- From: Sebastian Rahtz Date: 2013/06/20 14:59 (GMT+00:00) To: Kevin Hawkins Cc: "" Subject: Re: [tei-council] rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines On 20 Jun 2013, at 14:41, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > It seems that the presence of @validUntil causes "(deprecated)" to > appear in red, just as was the case for @status='deprecated'. For example: > > http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-biblScope.html > > But according to our plan at: > > http://wiki.tei-c.org/index.php/Deprecation#4._Add_handling_of_.40validUntil_to_stylesheets_for_generating_Guidelines > > we are going to display the date that something is valid until. Maybe > we could get this in before the next release? i was told by Head Teacher not to touch the stylesheets? please sir, James sir, can I have an exeat oh plis you mite oh sir -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 -- tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Jun 20 10:11:33 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:11:33 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr Message-ID: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> I went to process my assigned task from the minutes of our April meeting, "remove our own dis-recommended use of in the bibliography". Supposedly this is because we "agreed that these fixes need to be made. wrapped in , , will change @type="url" to ". However, we have no wrapped in , , or in the Guidelines. (Neither in main TEI namespace nor in Examples namespace.) We do have dozens of 'em directly inside , and I think the same logic applies: those that are pointing to a web page should be (or , but see [1]), not . So I went through the list of 'em. The vast majority obviously point to a page (e.g., end in ".html"), so I consider those candidates for conversion. I took a look at the 37 of them that were not obvious at a glance, running `wget` on each of them. 30 fetched a file (not surprisingly, most of which were named "index.html" :-). However, 7 did not resolve to a file, but rather gave an error of some sort (see [2] for details). What I've done for now is turn *all* of the into , adding a subtype="winita" (work is needed in this area) attribute to the 7 that do not resolve properly. I'm hoping someone will volunteer to track 'em down and fix 'em before next week. NOTE: Since I cannot build P5 here (I'm at the ambulance station today and only have my Mac, not a Debian-based system), I probably won't check this in until after I can check it later tonight. Notes ----- [1] Actually, will do just as well as , and the only one example I found that is already a or is a . Since I have no content to dream up to put inside , I'll use for now. If & when we dream up content we can use . [2] Output form `wget` on each of the 7 problematic URLs follows. ---------http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS21/: --2013-06-20 09:30:44-- http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS21/ Resolving www.w3.org... 128.30.52.37 Connecting to www.w3.org|128.30.52.37|:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found 2013-06-20 09:30:45 ERROR 404: Not Found. ---------http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653: --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- --http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 Resolving portal.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 Connecting to portal.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently Location: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 [following] --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 Resolving dl.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 Connecting to dl.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden 2013-06-20 09:30:45 ERROR 403: Forbidden. ---------http://ota.ahds.ac.uk/documents/creating/: --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- --http://ota.ahds.ac.uk/documents/creating/ Resolving ota.ahds.ac.uk... 163.1.0.23 Connecting to ota.ahds.ac.uk|163.1.0.23|:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found 2013-06-20 09:30:46 ERROR 404: Not Found. ---------http://hdl.handle.net/1956/1875: --2013-06-20 09:30:46-- http://hdl.handle.net/1956/1875 Resolving hdl.handle.net... 38.100.138.166, 38.100.138.165, --132.151.9.184, ... Connecting to hdl.handle.net|38.100.138.166|:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 303 See Other Location: http://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 [following] --2013-06-20 09:30:46-- http://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 Resolving bora.uib.no... 129.177.6.72, 2001:700:200:6::72 Connecting to bora.uib.no|129.177.6.72|:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found Location: https://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 [following] --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- https://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 Connecting to bora.uib.no|129.177.6.72|:443... connected. ERROR: cannot verify bora.uib.no's certificate, issued by --`/C=NL/O=TERENA/CN=TERENA SSL CA': Self-signed certificate encountered. To connect to bora.uib.no insecurely, use --`--no-check-certificate'. ---------http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192: --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- --http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 Resolving portal.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 Connecting to portal.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently Location: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 [following] --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 Resolving dl.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 Connecting to dl.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden 2013-06-20 09:30:47 ERROR 403: Forbidden. ---------http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_AE038: --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_AE038 Resolving edis.ifas.ufl.edu... 128.227.242.126 Connecting to edis.ifas.ufl.edu|128.227.242.126|:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently Location: /body_ae038 [following] --2013-06-20 09:30:48-- http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/body_ae038 Reusing existing connection to edis.ifas.ufl.edu:80. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found 2013-06-20 09:30:48 ERROR 404: Not Found. ---------http://www.cta.dmu.ac.uk:8000/AnaServer?teidoc+0+start.anv: --2013-06-20 09:30:48-- --http://www.cta.dmu.ac.uk:8000/AnaServer?teidoc+0+start.anv Resolving www.cta.dmu.ac.uk... 146.227.164.96 Connecting to www.cta.dmu.ac.uk|146.227.164.96|:8000... failed: --Connection refused. -- N.B.: New e-mail address as of 2013-07-01 will be s.bauman at neu.edu From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Thu Jun 20 10:13:32 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:13:32 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] In-Reply-To: <51C30946.2080707@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51C30946.2080707@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: Great, thanks all. Carrying on. On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Ah, someone else trying to sneak in changes past the deadline! ;-) I thought we had til midnight tonight in our own time zones? Lord knows I smash my face into deadlines as if they are are very clean sliding glass doors but I am trying not to actually shatter the glass! http://youtu.be/pPtVJW41bEI From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 10:18:16 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:18:16 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] In-Reply-To: References: <51C30946.2080707@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51C30F28.1000404@ultraslavonic.info> On 6/20/13 10:13 AM, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: > On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 9:53 AM, Kevin Hawkins > wrote: >> Ah, someone else trying to sneak in changes past the deadline! ;-) > > I thought we had til midnight tonight in our own time zones? Ah yes, so we do! I was off by one day. From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 10:37:54 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 14:37:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <51C30695.9020502@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51C30695.9020502@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3D68E9@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> would people like to offer me translations of "Deprecated: valid until" into French, Italian, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc? -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 10:43:40 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 15:43:40 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51C3151C.5080605@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 20/06/13 14:40, Rebecca Welzenbach wrote: Do you agree that should instead be a member of model.editorialDeclPart, or is there good reason to stick with the original proposal to make it a member of model.encodingDescPart? Yes! 2) As well as allowing prose content to describe the project's policy for handling punctuation marks, we agreed to add some relevant attributes. I propose the following: @marks : Just like on , this would be an optional attribute of the dataype data.enumerated, with permitted values of "none", "some", or "all" to indicate whether punctuation marks from the source text have been retained in the TEI document. @location: this would be an optional attribute, datatype data.enumerated, with permitted values of "internal" or "external" to indicate whether retained punctuation marks are captured as content within adjacent elements or placed outside of them. My model here was the use of @location on , although the usage of "internal" and "external" is not quite consistent between these two. Do these two attributes seem appropriate? Sufficient? Suitably named and defined? Plausible propositions both, though maybe @placement would be clearer than @location From rwelzenbach at gmail.com Thu Jun 20 11:24:22 2013 From: rwelzenbach at gmail.com (Rebecca Welzenbach) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:24:22 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] In-Reply-To: <51C3151C.5080605@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51C3151C.5080605@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: > Plausible propositions both, though maybe @placement would be clearer > than @location Ah, thanks. I agree that @placement is clearer. From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jun 20 11:31:21 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:31:21 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] respond by 1 May: summary of and path forward for "no longer recommended" and "deprecated" practices In-Reply-To: <51C307F5.2060200@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <5170B48B.2040400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A22730A@MBX01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <517120DA.6070906@kcl.ac.uk> <51716245.6080907@ultraslavonic.info> <51C287CF.3060107@ultraslavonic.info> <51C2D198.6050004@kcl.ac.uk> <51C2E577.3020608@it.ox.ac.uk> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3D5304@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51C307F5.2060200@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C32049.6030705@uvic.ca> Tried this in Oxygen and it works. :-) On 13-06-20 06:47 AM, James Cummings wrote: > On 20/06/13 13:35, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> you can add another Schematron which fires on D-Day minus 30. >> >> its in att.deprecated.xml > > Just double checking before I add it... am I doing the date > arithmetic correctly there? > > > > construct is outdated (as > of ); ODD processors may > ignore it, and it should probably be removed > > > I think that (30*xs:dayTimeDuration('P1D')) should do what I want? > > -james > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 11:32:51 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:32:51 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> Below ... On 6/20/13 10:11 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > I went to process my assigned task from the minutes of our April > meeting, "remove our own dis-recommended use of in the > bibliography". Supposedly this is because we "agreed that these fixes > need to be made. wrapped in , , > will change @type="url" to ". > > However, we have no wrapped in , > , or in the Guidelines. (Neither in main TEI > namespace nor in Examples namespace.) We do have dozens of 'em > directly inside , and I think the same logic applies: > those that are pointing to a web page should be (or , but > see [1]), not . That's right. The s are currently children of , but per https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/448/ , we need to move these to be children of , , or . In the minutes, it looks like we decided that you would move the s and then I would go through and change these s to either or as appropriate. On the other hand, my comment on the ticket (made during the meeting) implies that I would do the whole thing. Splitting the work between the two of us feels unnecessary for a task that's not especially complicated. I'm happy for you to do the whole thing. > So I went through the list of 'em. The vast majority obviously point > to a page (e.g., end in ".html"), so I consider those candidates for > conversion. I took a look at the 37 of them that were not obvious at > a glance, running `wget` on each of them. 30 fetched a file (not > surprisingly, most of which were named "index.html" :-). > > However, 7 did not resolve to a file, but rather gave an error of > some sort (see [2] for details). What I've done for now is turn *all* > of the into , adding a subtype="winita" (work > is needed in this area) attribute to the 7 that do not resolve > properly. I'm hoping someone will volunteer to track 'em down and fix > 'em before next week. Ah, well, it looks like you're doing the whole thing anyway! These generally appear to be dead links. We probably should build link checking into the build process so we catch these on a regular basis and try to find where the document has moved to. But if the document has disappeared, I think that at that point we just put the URL in as content without any or surrounding it (so people won't bother clicking). > NOTE: Since I cannot build P5 here (I'm at the ambulance station > today and only have my Mac, not a Debian-based system), I probably > won't check this in until after I can check it later tonight. > > Notes > ----- > [1] Actually, will do just as well as , and the only one > example I found that is already a or is a . > Since > I have no content to dream up to put inside , I'll use > for now. If & when we dream up content we can use . > > [2] Output form `wget` on each of the 7 problematic URLs follows. > > ---------http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS21/: > --2013-06-20 09:30:44-- http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS21/ > Resolving www.w3.org... 128.30.52.37 > Connecting to www.w3.org|128.30.52.37|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found > 2013-06-20 09:30:45 ERROR 404: Not Found. > > ---------http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653: > --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- > --http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 > Resolving portal.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 > Connecting to portal.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently > Location: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 > Resolving dl.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 > Connecting to dl.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden > 2013-06-20 09:30:45 ERROR 403: Forbidden. > > ---------http://ota.ahds.ac.uk/documents/creating/: > --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- > --http://ota.ahds.ac.uk/documents/creating/ > Resolving ota.ahds.ac.uk... 163.1.0.23 > Connecting to ota.ahds.ac.uk|163.1.0.23|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found > 2013-06-20 09:30:46 ERROR 404: Not Found. > > ---------http://hdl.handle.net/1956/1875: > --2013-06-20 09:30:46-- http://hdl.handle.net/1956/1875 > Resolving hdl.handle.net... 38.100.138.166, 38.100.138.165, > --132.151.9.184, ... > Connecting to hdl.handle.net|38.100.138.166|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 303 See Other > Location: http://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:46-- http://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 > Resolving bora.uib.no... 129.177.6.72, 2001:700:200:6::72 > Connecting to bora.uib.no|129.177.6.72|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found > Location: https://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- https://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 > Connecting to bora.uib.no|129.177.6.72|:443... connected. > ERROR: cannot verify bora.uib.no's certificate, issued by > --`/C=NL/O=TERENA/CN=TERENA SSL CA': > Self-signed certificate encountered. > To connect to bora.uib.no insecurely, use > --`--no-check-certificate'. > ---------http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192: > --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- > --http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 > Resolving portal.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 > Connecting to portal.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently > Location: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 > Resolving dl.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 > Connecting to dl.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden > 2013-06-20 09:30:47 ERROR 403: Forbidden. > > ---------http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_AE038: > --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_AE038 > Resolving edis.ifas.ufl.edu... 128.227.242.126 > Connecting to edis.ifas.ufl.edu|128.227.242.126|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently > Location: /body_ae038 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:48-- http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/body_ae038 > Reusing existing connection to edis.ifas.ufl.edu:80. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found > 2013-06-20 09:30:48 ERROR 404: Not Found. > > ---------http://www.cta.dmu.ac.uk:8000/AnaServer?teidoc+0+start.anv: > --2013-06-20 09:30:48-- > --http://www.cta.dmu.ac.uk:8000/AnaServer?teidoc+0+start.anv > Resolving www.cta.dmu.ac.uk... 146.227.164.96 > Connecting to www.cta.dmu.ac.uk|146.227.164.96|:8000... failed: > --Connection refused. > > From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jun 20 11:47:23 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:47:23 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <51C3240B.70006@uvic.ca> This one: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS21/ should be: This one: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 redirects to: This one: http://ota.ahds.ac.uk/documents/creating/ seems to have disappeared, but the Oxford folks probably know where it is. This one: http://hdl.handle.net/1956/1875 redirects to: This one: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 redirects to: This one: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_AE038 (Watson on Document Markup) now seems to be available here: The last one (Robinson's Making ... with Anastasia) really does seem to have disappeared. I'm happy to make relevant fixes if James gives me permission. Cheers, Martin On 13-06-20 07:11 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > I went to process my assigned task from the minutes of our April > meeting, "remove our own dis-recommended use of in the > bibliography". Supposedly this is because we "agreed that these fixes > need to be made. wrapped in , , > will change @type="url" to ". > > However, we have no wrapped in , > , or in the Guidelines. (Neither in main TEI > namespace nor in Examples namespace.) We do have dozens of 'em > directly inside , and I think the same logic applies: > those that are pointing to a web page should be (or , but > see [1]), not . > > So I went through the list of 'em. The vast majority obviously point > to a page (e.g., end in ".html"), so I consider those candidates for > conversion. I took a look at the 37 of them that were not obvious at > a glance, running `wget` on each of them. 30 fetched a file (not > surprisingly, most of which were named "index.html" :-). > > However, 7 did not resolve to a file, but rather gave an error of > some sort (see [2] for details). What I've done for now is turn *all* > of the into , adding a subtype="winita" (work > is needed in this area) attribute to the 7 that do not resolve > properly. I'm hoping someone will volunteer to track 'em down and fix > 'em before next week. > > NOTE: Since I cannot build P5 here (I'm at the ambulance station > today and only have my Mac, not a Debian-based system), I probably > won't check this in until after I can check it later tonight. > > Notes > ----- > [1] Actually, will do just as well as , and the only one > example I found that is already a or is a . > Since > I have no content to dream up to put inside , I'll use > for now. If & when we dream up content we can use . > > [2] Output form `wget` on each of the 7 problematic URLs follows. > > ---------http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS21/: > --2013-06-20 09:30:44-- http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS21/ > Resolving www.w3.org... 128.30.52.37 > Connecting to www.w3.org|128.30.52.37|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found > 2013-06-20 09:30:45 ERROR 404: Not Found. > > ---------http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653: > --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- > --http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 > Resolving portal.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 > Connecting to portal.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently > Location: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 > Resolving dl.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 > Connecting to dl.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden > 2013-06-20 09:30:45 ERROR 403: Forbidden. > > ---------http://ota.ahds.ac.uk/documents/creating/: > --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- > --http://ota.ahds.ac.uk/documents/creating/ > Resolving ota.ahds.ac.uk... 163.1.0.23 > Connecting to ota.ahds.ac.uk|163.1.0.23|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found > 2013-06-20 09:30:46 ERROR 404: Not Found. > > ---------http://hdl.handle.net/1956/1875: > --2013-06-20 09:30:46-- http://hdl.handle.net/1956/1875 > Resolving hdl.handle.net... 38.100.138.166, 38.100.138.165, > --132.151.9.184, ... > Connecting to hdl.handle.net|38.100.138.166|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 303 See Other > Location: http://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:46-- http://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 > Resolving bora.uib.no... 129.177.6.72, 2001:700:200:6::72 > Connecting to bora.uib.no|129.177.6.72|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found > Location: https://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- https://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 > Connecting to bora.uib.no|129.177.6.72|:443... connected. > ERROR: cannot verify bora.uib.no's certificate, issued by > --`/C=NL/O=TERENA/CN=TERENA SSL CA': > Self-signed certificate encountered. > To connect to bora.uib.no insecurely, use > --`--no-check-certificate'. > ---------http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192: > --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- > --http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 > Resolving portal.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 > Connecting to portal.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently > Location: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 > Resolving dl.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 > Connecting to dl.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden > 2013-06-20 09:30:47 ERROR 403: Forbidden. > > ---------http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_AE038: > --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_AE038 > Resolving edis.ifas.ufl.edu... 128.227.242.126 > Connecting to edis.ifas.ufl.edu|128.227.242.126|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently > Location: /body_ae038 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:48-- http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/body_ae038 > Reusing existing connection to edis.ifas.ufl.edu:80. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found > 2013-06-20 09:30:48 ERROR 404: Not Found. > > ---------http://www.cta.dmu.ac.uk:8000/AnaServer?teidoc+0+start.anv: > --2013-06-20 09:30:48-- > --http://www.cta.dmu.ac.uk:8000/AnaServer?teidoc+0+start.anv > Resolving www.cta.dmu.ac.uk... 146.227.164.96 > Connecting to www.cta.dmu.ac.uk|146.227.164.96|:8000... failed: > --Connection refused. > > -- Martin Holmes University of Victoria Humanities Computing and Media Centre (mholmes at uvic.ca) From philomousos at gmail.com Thu Jun 20 11:55:28 2013 From: philomousos at gmail.com (Hugh Cayless) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 11:55:28 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: I do want to raise one small quibble that doesn't likely affect implementing the ticket, but which I think should be kept in mind for the future. It *is* possible to have an HTTP URI which is also an identifier, and in that case, I'd argue for keeping it in . I doubt there are any examples in the Guidelines, but it's the kind of thing we may see more of as Linked Data picks up steam. For example, the URI http://papyri.info/biblio/8276/ref denotes an actual book, and resolves to http://papyri.info/biblio/8276, which is a bibliographic record. Worldcat ids, like http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/185922478 function in the same way, and I can easily see people wanting to use them inside s. I would. Maybe some thinking about the appropriate @type to use for these is warranted... Hugh On Jun 20, 2013, at 10:11 , Syd Bauman wrote: > I went to process my assigned task from the minutes of our April > meeting, "remove our own dis-recommended use of in the > bibliography". Supposedly this is because we "agreed that these fixes > need to be made. wrapped in , , > will change @type="url" to ". > > However, we have no wrapped in , > , or in the Guidelines. (Neither in main TEI > namespace nor in Examples namespace.) We do have dozens of 'em > directly inside , and I think the same logic applies: > those that are pointing to a web page should be (or , but > see [1]), not . > > So I went through the list of 'em. The vast majority obviously point > to a page (e.g., end in ".html"), so I consider those candidates for > conversion. I took a look at the 37 of them that were not obvious at > a glance, running `wget` on each of them. 30 fetched a file (not > surprisingly, most of which were named "index.html" :-). > > However, 7 did not resolve to a file, but rather gave an error of > some sort (see [2] for details). What I've done for now is turn *all* > of the into , adding a subtype="winita" (work > is needed in this area) attribute to the 7 that do not resolve > properly. I'm hoping someone will volunteer to track 'em down and fix > 'em before next week. > > NOTE: Since I cannot build P5 here (I'm at the ambulance station > today and only have my Mac, not a Debian-based system), I probably > won't check this in until after I can check it later tonight. > > Notes > ----- > [1] Actually, will do just as well as , and the only one > example I found that is already a or is a . > Since > I have no content to dream up to put inside , I'll use > for now. If & when we dream up content we can use . > > [2] Output form `wget` on each of the 7 problematic URLs follows. > > ---------http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS21/: > --2013-06-20 09:30:44-- http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS21/ > Resolving www.w3.org... 128.30.52.37 > Connecting to www.w3.org|128.30.52.37|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found > 2013-06-20 09:30:45 ERROR 404: Not Found. > > ---------http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653: > --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- > --http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 > Resolving portal.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 > Connecting to portal.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently > Location: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 > Resolving dl.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 > Connecting to dl.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden > 2013-06-20 09:30:45 ERROR 403: Forbidden. > > ---------http://ota.ahds.ac.uk/documents/creating/: > --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- > --http://ota.ahds.ac.uk/documents/creating/ > Resolving ota.ahds.ac.uk... 163.1.0.23 > Connecting to ota.ahds.ac.uk|163.1.0.23|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found > 2013-06-20 09:30:46 ERROR 404: Not Found. > > ---------http://hdl.handle.net/1956/1875: > --2013-06-20 09:30:46-- http://hdl.handle.net/1956/1875 > Resolving hdl.handle.net... 38.100.138.166, 38.100.138.165, > --132.151.9.184, ... > Connecting to hdl.handle.net|38.100.138.166|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 303 See Other > Location: http://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:46-- http://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 > Resolving bora.uib.no... 129.177.6.72, 2001:700:200:6::72 > Connecting to bora.uib.no|129.177.6.72|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found > Location: https://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- https://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 > Connecting to bora.uib.no|129.177.6.72|:443... connected. > ERROR: cannot verify bora.uib.no's certificate, issued by > --`/C=NL/O=TERENA/CN=TERENA SSL CA': > Self-signed certificate encountered. > To connect to bora.uib.no insecurely, use > --`--no-check-certificate'. > ---------http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192: > --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- > --http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 > Resolving portal.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 > Connecting to portal.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently > Location: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 > Resolving dl.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 > Connecting to dl.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden > 2013-06-20 09:30:47 ERROR 403: Forbidden. > > ---------http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_AE038: > --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_AE038 > Resolving edis.ifas.ufl.edu... 128.227.242.126 > Connecting to edis.ifas.ufl.edu|128.227.242.126|:80... connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently > Location: /body_ae038 [following] > --2013-06-20 09:30:48-- http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/body_ae038 > Reusing existing connection to edis.ifas.ufl.edu:80. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found > 2013-06-20 09:30:48 ERROR 404: Not Found. > > ---------http://www.cta.dmu.ac.uk:8000/AnaServer?teidoc+0+start.anv: > --2013-06-20 09:30:48-- > --http://www.cta.dmu.ac.uk:8000/AnaServer?teidoc+0+start.anv > Resolving www.cta.dmu.ac.uk... 146.227.164.96 > Connecting to www.cta.dmu.ac.uk|146.227.164.96|:8000... failed: > --Connection refused. > > -- > N.B.: New e-mail address as of 2013-07-01 will be > s.bauman at neu.edu > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 12:28:15 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:28:15 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <51C3240B.70006@uvic.ca> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C3240B.70006@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51C32D9F.6050709@ultraslavonic.info> On 6/20/13 11:47 AM, Martin Holmes wrote: > This one: http://hdl.handle.net/1956/1875 redirects to: > That one should stay as is: the first one is the durable URL that is displayed on the page. > I'm happy to make relevant fixes if James gives me permission. I think we all have till tonight to act even without James's permission. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 12:34:11 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 12:34:11 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <51C32F03.4030408@ultraslavonic.info> Good idea. I've put in a feature request: https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/462/ On 6/20/13 11:55 AM, Hugh Cayless wrote: > I do want to raise one small quibble that doesn't likely affect implementing the ticket, but which I think should be kept in mind for the future. It *is* possible to have an HTTP URI which is also an identifier, and in that case, I'd argue for keeping it in . I doubt there are any examples in the Guidelines, but it's the kind of thing we may see more of as Linked Data picks up steam. For example, the URI http://papyri.info/biblio/8276/ref denotes an actual book, and resolves to http://papyri.info/biblio/8276, which is a bibliographic record. Worldcat ids, like http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/185922478 function in the same way, and I can easily see people wanting to use them inside s. I would. Maybe some thinking about the appropriate @type to use for these is warranted... > > Hugh > > On Jun 20, 2013, at 10:11 , Syd Bauman wrote: > >> I went to process my assigned task from the minutes of our April >> meeting, "remove our own dis-recommended use of in the >> bibliography". Supposedly this is because we "agreed that these fixes >> need to be made. wrapped in , , >> will change @type="url" to ". >> >> However, we have no wrapped in , >> , or in the Guidelines. (Neither in main TEI >> namespace nor in Examples namespace.) We do have dozens of 'em >> directly inside , and I think the same logic applies: >> those that are pointing to a web page should be (or , but >> see [1]), not . >> >> So I went through the list of 'em. The vast majority obviously point >> to a page (e.g., end in ".html"), so I consider those candidates for >> conversion. I took a look at the 37 of them that were not obvious at >> a glance, running `wget` on each of them. 30 fetched a file (not >> surprisingly, most of which were named "index.html" :-). >> >> However, 7 did not resolve to a file, but rather gave an error of >> some sort (see [2] for details). What I've done for now is turn *all* >> of the into , adding a subtype="winita" (work >> is needed in this area) attribute to the 7 that do not resolve >> properly. I'm hoping someone will volunteer to track 'em down and fix >> 'em before next week. >> >> NOTE: Since I cannot build P5 here (I'm at the ambulance station >> today and only have my Mac, not a Debian-based system), I probably >> won't check this in until after I can check it later tonight. >> >> Notes >> ----- >> [1] Actually, will do just as well as , and the only one >> example I found that is already a or is a . >> Since >> I have no content to dream up to put inside , I'll use >> for now. If & when we dream up content we can use . >> >> [2] Output form `wget` on each of the 7 problematic URLs follows. >> >> ---------http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS21/: >> --2013-06-20 09:30:44-- http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS21/ >> Resolving www.w3.org... 128.30.52.37 >> Connecting to www.w3.org|128.30.52.37|:80... connected. >> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found >> 2013-06-20 09:30:45 ERROR 404: Not Found. >> >> ---------http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653: >> --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- >> --http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 >> Resolving portal.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 >> Connecting to portal.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. >> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently >> Location: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 [following] >> --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=963653 >> Resolving dl.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 >> Connecting to dl.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. >> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden >> 2013-06-20 09:30:45 ERROR 403: Forbidden. >> >> ---------http://ota.ahds.ac.uk/documents/creating/: >> --2013-06-20 09:30:45-- >> --http://ota.ahds.ac.uk/documents/creating/ >> Resolving ota.ahds.ac.uk... 163.1.0.23 >> Connecting to ota.ahds.ac.uk|163.1.0.23|:80... connected. >> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found >> 2013-06-20 09:30:46 ERROR 404: Not Found. >> >> ---------http://hdl.handle.net/1956/1875: >> --2013-06-20 09:30:46-- http://hdl.handle.net/1956/1875 >> Resolving hdl.handle.net... 38.100.138.166, 38.100.138.165, >> --132.151.9.184, ... >> Connecting to hdl.handle.net|38.100.138.166|:80... connected. >> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 303 See Other >> Location: http://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 [following] >> --2013-06-20 09:30:46-- http://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 >> Resolving bora.uib.no... 129.177.6.72, 2001:700:200:6::72 >> Connecting to bora.uib.no|129.177.6.72|:80... connected. >> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found >> Location: https://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 [following] >> --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- https://bora.uib.no/handle/1956/1875 >> Connecting to bora.uib.no|129.177.6.72|:443... connected. >> ERROR: cannot verify bora.uib.no's certificate, issued by >> --`/C=NL/O=TERENA/CN=TERENA SSL CA': >> Self-signed certificate encountered. >> To connect to bora.uib.no insecurely, use >> --`--no-check-certificate'. >> ---------http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192: >> --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- >> --http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 >> Resolving portal.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 >> Connecting to portal.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. >> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently >> Location: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 [following] >> --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=827192 >> Resolving dl.acm.org... 64.238.147.56, 64.238.147.53 >> Connecting to dl.acm.org|64.238.147.56|:80... connected. >> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 403 Forbidden >> 2013-06-20 09:30:47 ERROR 403: Forbidden. >> >> ---------http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_AE038: >> --2013-06-20 09:30:47-- http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_AE038 >> Resolving edis.ifas.ufl.edu... 128.227.242.126 >> Connecting to edis.ifas.ufl.edu|128.227.242.126|:80... connected. >> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently >> Location: /body_ae038 [following] >> --2013-06-20 09:30:48-- http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/body_ae038 >> Reusing existing connection to edis.ifas.ufl.edu:80. >> HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found >> 2013-06-20 09:30:48 ERROR 404: Not Found. >> >> ---------http://www.cta.dmu.ac.uk:8000/AnaServer?teidoc+0+start.anv: >> --2013-06-20 09:30:48-- >> --http://www.cta.dmu.ac.uk:8000/AnaServer?teidoc+0+start.anv >> Resolving www.cta.dmu.ac.uk... 146.227.164.96 >> Connecting to www.cta.dmu.ac.uk|146.227.164.96|:8000... failed: >> --Connection refused. >> >> -- >> N.B.: New e-mail address as of 2013-07-01 will be >> s.bauman at neu.edu >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 14:36:04 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 18:36:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <51C30695.9020502@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51C30695.9020502@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3D8A0B@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> see http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-join.html http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-relationGrp.html one bit more to do. shout now if you want a different form of words. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Jun 20 14:50:48 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 14:50:48 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] bug 527: -> @source Message-ID: <20931.20232.486891.958204@emt.ad.brown.edu> I'm working on bug 527. I looked through the entire Guidelines for the siblings of elements that did not have @source. There are 26 of them, but of those only 1 was a simple citation. See [1]. (I also looked for the siblings of elements that had children elements that do not have @source, but there are none.) Am I missing something? I realized 1/2-way through that there are citations in comments, too. I think we should fix those, too, and will today if I have time. But 527 specifically says , and that there are "a number" of them. [1] egXML# disposition ------ ----------- 1 - not a citation 2 - fixed 560 - not a citation 1240 - not a citation 1813 - more than just a citation 1814 - same as above 1868 - not a citation 2048 - not a citation 2122 - not a citation 2192 - not a citation 2460 - not a citation 2488 - not a citation 2518 - more than just a citation, also fixed 2587 - not a citation 2588 - same as above 2594 - not a citation 2595 - not a citation 2686 - not a citation 2725 - not a citation 2874 - not a citation 2875 - same as above 2876 - same as above 3070 - not a citation 3071 - same as above 3086 - not a citation 3087 - not a citation -- N.B.: New e-mail address as of 2013-07-01 will be s.bauman at neu.edu From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 16:20:44 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 21:20:44 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <51C363F7.20507@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51C363F7.20507@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 20/06/13 19:36, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > see > > http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-join.html > http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-relationGrp.html > > one bit more to do. > > shout now if you want a different form of words. Could the word "Deprecated" be a link to a page briefly outlining our deprecation policy? "This feature will be withdrawn on " seems a bit clearer than "Valid until " (which sounds more like a coupon for something) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 16:27:59 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 20:27:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51C363F7.20507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5c0f4dd4-9157-4143-a3cf-723e36c06b78@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 20 Jun 2013, at 21:20, Lou Burnard wrote: > > Could the word "Deprecated" be a link to a page briefly outlining our > deprecation policy? > it could. but do you mind if we leave that for now? it will mean more work and time I don't have this evening > "This feature will be withdrawn on " seems a bit clearer than > "Valid until " (which sounds more like a coupon for something) do others agree? I'm easy. but please decide in the next few hours 'cos I want to put this XSL to bed..... -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From bbarney2 at unl.edu Thu Jun 20 16:33:03 2013 From: bbarney2 at unl.edu (Brett Barney) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 20:33:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3D68E9@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51C30695.9020502@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3D68E9@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5DC85C9B-BCD3-474D-8E5B-DCD3D195C7D4@unl.edu> Well, for Japanese you could use this: ????:???? On Jun 20, 2013, at 9:37 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > would people like to offer me translations of > > "Deprecated: valid until" > > into French, Italian, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc? > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > ---------------- Brett Barney Associate Research Professor Center for Digital Research in the Humanities bbarney2 at unl.edu From bbarney2 at unl.edu Thu Jun 20 16:36:53 2013 From: bbarney2 at unl.edu (Brett Barney) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 20:36:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <5c0f4dd4-9157-4143-a3cf-723e36c06b78@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51C363F7.20507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5c0f4dd4-9157-4143-a3cf-723e36c06b78@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1F421BF6-0439-46F3-B3F3-0E919E181F06@unl.edu> Agree with the sentiment. Maybe ". . . will be withdrawn *after*" (the idea being that the expiration date isn't in reality so precise)? On Jun 20, 2013, at 3:27 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 20 Jun 2013, at 21:20, Lou Burnard > wrote: >> >> Could the word "Deprecated" be a link to a page briefly outlining our >> deprecation policy? >> > it could. but do you mind if we leave that for now? it will mean more work > and time I don't have this evening > >> "This feature will be withdrawn on " seems a bit clearer than >> "Valid until " (which sounds more like a coupon for something) > > > do others agree? I'm easy. > > but please decide in the next few hours 'cos I want to put this XSL to bed..... > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > -- > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived > ---------------- Brett Barney Associate Research Professor Center for Digital Research in the Humanities bbarney2 at unl.edu From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 17:16:36 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 17:16:36 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] bug 527: -> @source In-Reply-To: <20931.20232.486891.958204@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20931.20232.486891.958204@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <51C37134.5090501@ultraslavonic.info> It may be then when I first brought this up on tei-council, I happened to discover the one instance that you also found, on the same page with a use of @source. At this point, I may have just assumed the problem was pervasive without actually investigating. I think you've done your due diligence. I will still plan to update TCW20 in hopes that we won't create more s that go with s. K. On 6/20/13 2:50 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: > I'm working on target="http://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/527/">bug 527. I > looked through the entire Guidelines for the siblings of > elements that did not have @source. There are 26 of them, but > of those only 1 was a simple citation. See [1]. (I also looked for > the siblings of elements that had children > elements that do not have @source, but there are none.) > > Am I missing something? I realized 1/2-way through that there are > citations in comments, too. I think we should fix those, too, and > will today if I have time. But 527 specifically says , and that > there are "a number" of them. > > [1] egXML# disposition > ------ ----------- > 1 - not a citation > 2 - fixed > 560 - not a citation > 1240 - not a citation > 1813 - more than just a citation > 1814 - same as above > 1868 - not a citation > 2048 - not a citation > 2122 - not a citation > 2192 - not a citation > 2460 - not a citation > 2488 - not a citation > 2518 - more than just a citation, also fixed > 2587 - not a citation > 2588 - same as above > 2594 - not a citation > 2595 - not a citation > 2686 - not a citation > 2725 - not a citation > 2874 - not a citation > 2875 - same as above > 2876 - same as above > 3070 - not a citation > 3071 - same as above > 3086 - not a citation > 3087 - not a citation > > -- > N.B.: New e-mail address as of 2013-07-01 will be > s.bauman at neu.edu > From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 18:01:36 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 18:01:36 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51C363F7.20507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C37BC0.9010400@ultraslavonic.info> On 6/20/13 4:20 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > > On 20/06/13 19:36, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> see >> >> http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-join.html >> http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-relationGrp.html >> >> one bit more to do. >> >> shout now if you want a different form of words. > > > Could the word "Deprecated" be a link to a page briefly outlining our > deprecation policy? That page would be http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw27.xml . (You may ask why all the text on this page renders so large. I haven't managed to figure out how to change the stylesheets to handle pages that have no beginning the first div and no TOC.) From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 20 18:03:13 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 22:03:13 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <51C37BC0.9010400@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51C363F7.20507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C37BC0.9010400@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3DA97F@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 20 Jun 2013, at 23:01, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > > (You may ask why all the text on this page renders so large. I haven't > managed to figure out how to change the stylesheets to handle pages that > have no beginning the first div and no TOC.) what does that outermost
          try to convey? looks like an HTML
          , not a TEI one...... -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 18:08:56 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 18:08:56 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3DA97F@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <51C363F7.20507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C37BC0.9010400@ultraslavonic.info> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3DA97F@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C37D78.7010306@ultraslavonic.info> On 6/20/13 6:03 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > On 20 Jun 2013, at 23:01, Kevin Hawkins > wrote: > >> >> (You may ask why all the text on this page renders so large. I haven't >> managed to figure out how to change the stylesheets to handle pages that >> have no beginning the first div and no TOC.) > > what does that outermost
          try to convey? looks like an HTML >
          , not a TEI one...... It conveys nothing except the author's habit of writing Text Class XML for DLXS, which requires such wrapping divs. I have removed it and the rendering is now fixed. Will keep this in mind as I come across pages on www.tei-c.org that have this same problem ... From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 22:39:53 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 22:39:53 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <51C37BC0.9010400@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51C363F7.20507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C37BC0.9010400@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51C3BCF9.3030906@ultraslavonic.info> On 6/20/13 6:01 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > On 6/20/13 4:20 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: >> >> On 20/06/13 19:36, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> see >>> >>> http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-join.html >>> http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-relationGrp.html >>> >>> one bit more to do. >>> >>> shout now if you want a different form of words. >> >> >> Could the word "Deprecated" be a link to a page briefly outlining our >> deprecation policy? > > That page would be > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw27.xml . Lest this be forgotten, I've rolled it into a ticket I just created for a related matter we discussed in Providence as part of the deprecation discussion: https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/feature-requests/463/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Jun 20 23:21:06 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 23:21:06 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> OK. Changes checked in (at rev 12293). I've closed 448, too. However, the stylesheets don't render a in the middle of a bibliographic citation all that well. I don't know if it's ugly enough to permit being fixed during this week of "pre-release code freeze" or not. James? > That's right. The s are currently children of , > but per https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/448/ , we need to move > these to be children of , , or . From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Thu Jun 20 23:29:56 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 23:29:56 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] SF: Allura Tickets 'Priority'. In-Reply-To: <51BF0EE0.8060009@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <51BF0EE0.8060009@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C3C8B4.5090400@ultraslavonic.info> I don't object; however, I'd like to point out something I've just noticed. While anyone can add a comment to a ticket in Allura, you can only change who it's assigned to or its status by "editing" the ticket. When you do this, it allows you to edit many fields, including the priority. Unfortunately, the edit screen always sets the priority to "1(low)" when you go to this edit screen. I suspect this is a bug in Allura, but it's such a huge bug that I wonder whether we in fact have "1(low)" set as the default priority or something -- that is, maybe this is something we can fix before we try to get the attention of the folks at SourceForge. --K. On 6/17/13 9:28 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > Hiya, > > In response to one of my actions I've investigated and with a bit > of fiddling changed the priority field to be: "1(low) 2 3 4 > *"5(default)" 6 7 8 "9(high)" which means going forward the '1' > items will be '1(low)', etc. this is a bit awkward but better > than just a set of unglossed numbers. > > This is a 'select' field, the other options for ticket metadata > fields are: > 'text', 'number', 'boolean', 'milestone' and 'user', which aren't > as useful, I think, for this field. > > Let me know if anyone objects strongly to that, because I can > revert it, otherwise new tickets will start using these glossed > numbers. > > -James > From mholmes at uvic.ca Thu Jun 20 23:44:57 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 20:44:57 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> What are you seeing that looks wrong? The pointers look OK to me: The only slight oddity is the occasional nesting of parentheses, I think. Cheers, Martin On 13-06-20 08:21 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: > OK. Changes checked in (at rev 12293). I've closed 448, too. However, > the stylesheets don't render a in the middle of a bibliographic > citation all that well. > > I don't know if it's ugly enough to permit being fixed during this > week of "pre-release code freeze" or not. James? > >> That's right. The s are currently children of , >> but per https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/448/ , we need to move >> these to be children of , , or . From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Fri Jun 21 06:03:21 2013 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:03:21 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <1F421BF6-0439-46F3-B3F3-0E919E181F06@unl.edu> References: <51C363F7.20507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5c0f4dd4-9157-4143-a3cf-723e36c06b78@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <1F421BF6-0439-46F3-B3F3-0E919E181F06@unl.edu> Message-ID: <51C424E9.7090001@kcl.ac.uk> I would even be tempted to say, "will remain in TEI schema at least until 2013-09-20" or similar, which is the only thing we're saying. We're not implying that people should carry on using this attribute (or whatever), only that their files won't break yet if they take a few months to weed it out. :-) On 2013-06-20 21:36, Brett Barney wrote: > Agree with the sentiment. Maybe ". . . will be withdrawn *after*" (the idea being that the expiration date isn't in reality so precise)? > > On Jun 20, 2013, at 3:27 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> >> On 20 Jun 2013, at 21:20, Lou Burnard >> wrote: >>> >>> Could the word "Deprecated" be a link to a page briefly outlining our >>> deprecation policy? >>> >> it could. but do you mind if we leave that for now? it will mean more work >> and time I don't have this evening >> >>> "This feature will be withdrawn on " seems a bit clearer than >>> "Valid until " (which sounds more like a coupon for something) >> >> >> do others agree? I'm easy. >> >> but please decide in the next few hours 'cos I want to put this XSL to bed..... >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Director (Research) of Academic IT >> University of Oxford IT Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> >> -- >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> PLEASE NOTE: postings to this list are publicly archived >> > > ---------------- > Brett Barney > Associate Research Professor > Center for Digital Research in the Humanities > bbarney2 at unl.edu > > > > > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD Researcher in Digital Epigraphy Digital Humanities King's College London Boris Karloff Building 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL T: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 E: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 21 06:13:43 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:13:43 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <51C424E9.7090001@kcl.ac.uk> References: <51C363F7.20507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> <5c0f4dd4-9157-4143-a3cf-723e36c06b78@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <1F421BF6-0439-46F3-B3F3-0E919E181F06@unl.edu> <51C424E9.7090001@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3E21C9@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 21 Jun 2013, at 11:03, Gabriel Bodard wrote: > I would even be tempted to say, "will remain in TEI schema at least > until 2013-09-20" or similar, which is the only thing we're saying. > We're not implying that people should carry on using this attribute (or > whatever), only that their files won't break yet if they take a few > months to weed it out. :-) how do we resolve this issue of the words to use? there are a myriad possibilities. i might offer "will be removed from the TEI after $data" we really shouldn't keep fiddling with this right up to release... -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jun 21 07:12:13 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 07:12:13 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <20932.13581.830749.274887@emt.ad.brown.edu> > What are you seeing that looks wrong? The pointers look OK to me: > The lack of whitespace after each. Search for "pdfCom" or "htmlhttp". > The only slight oddity is the occasional nesting of parentheses, I > think. I only see a few of those, and while they are a little clumsy, they make sense and have nothing to do with . From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 21 07:29:06 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:29:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <20932.13581.830749.274887@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> <20932.13581.830749.274887@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3E32B1@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> what _is_ the right algorithm to format a in a biblStruct like this? Christopher Welty Nancy Ide Using the Right Tools: Enhancing Retrieval from Marked-up Documents -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jun 21 08:47:08 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 05:47:08 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3E32B1@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> <20932.13581.830749.274887@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3E32B1@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C44B4C.10806@uvic.ca> I guess: if the following text node isn't a piece of punctuation or a parenthesis, add a space after it. This stuff is why I hate . We could simply re-cast these problem ones as bibls. Cheers, Martin On 13-06-21 04:29 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > what _is_ the right algorithm to format a in a biblStruct like this? > > > > Christopher > Welty > > > Nancy > Ide > > Using the Right Tools: Enhancing Retrieval from Marked-up > Documents > > > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Director (Research) of Academic IT > University of Oxford IT Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 21 08:55:43 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 12:55:43 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <51C44B4C.10806@uvic.ca> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> <20932.13581.830749.274887@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3E32B1@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51C44B4C.10806@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3E3EB4@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 21 Jun 2013, at 13:47, Martin Holmes wrote: > I guess: if the following text node isn't a piece of punctuation or a > parenthesis, add a space after it. i added a space fore and aft. seems to work > This stuff is why I hate . We could simply re-cast these > problem ones as bibls. cue Heresy -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 21 09:01:02 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:01:02 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3E3EB4@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> <20932.13581.830749.274887@emt.ad.brown.edu> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3E32B1@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> <51C44B4C.10806@uvic.ca> <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3E3EB4@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C44E8E.4000008@retired.ox.ac.uk> On 21/06/13 13:55, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> This stuff is why I hate . We could simply re-cast these >> problem ones as bibls. > > cue Heresy I think you'll find a stern warning in the Guidelines against mixing biblStruct and bibl in the same listBibl. If not, I am sure someone would like there to be one. From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 21 09:12:09 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:12:09 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> Message-ID: <51C45129.8020300@it.ox.ac.uk> Is it just me, or do the links to the bibliography not seem to be working at all then? e.g. Go to http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5-Documentation/ws/Guidelines-web/en/html/SA.html#SA-eg-02 And click on the word 'bibliography' it is a link to: http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5-Documentation/ws/Guidelines-web/en/html/SA.html#SA-eg-02 i.e. SA.html rather than BIB.html That definitely needs fixing and counts as release-blocking if someone has time to do so? -James On 21/06/13 04:44, Martin Holmes wrote: > What are you seeing that looks wrong? The pointers look OK to me: > > > > The only slight oddity is the occasional nesting of parentheses, I think. > > Cheers, > Martin > > On 13-06-20 08:21 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: >> OK. Changes checked in (at rev 12293). I've closed 448, too. However, >> the stylesheets don't render a in the middle of a bibliographic >> citation all that well. >> >> I don't know if it's ugly enough to permit being fixed during this >> week of "pre-release code freeze" or not. James? >> >>> That's right. The s are currently children of , >>> but per https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/448/ , we need to move >>> these to be children of , , or . -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Jun 21 09:19:50 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:19:50 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <51C45129.8020300@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> <51C45129.8020300@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C452F6.9030901@ultraslavonic.info> Good catch. I've reopened https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/527/ . On 6/21/13 9:12 AM, James Cummings wrote: > > Is it just me, or do the links to the bibliography not seem to be > working at all then? > e.g. > > Go to > http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5-Documentation/ws/Guidelines-web/en/html/SA.html#SA-eg-02 > > And click on the word 'bibliography' it is a link to: > > http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5-Documentation/ws/Guidelines-web/en/html/SA.html#SA-eg-02 > > i.e. SA.html rather than BIB.html > > That definitely needs fixing and counts as release-blocking if > someone has time to do so? > > -James > > > On 21/06/13 04:44, Martin Holmes wrote: >> What are you seeing that looks wrong? The pointers look OK to me: >> >> >> >> The only slight oddity is the occasional nesting of parentheses, I think. >> >> Cheers, >> Martin >> >> On 13-06-20 08:21 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: >>> OK. Changes checked in (at rev 12293). I've closed 448, too. However, >>> the stylesheets don't render a in the middle of a bibliographic >>> citation all that well. >>> >>> I don't know if it's ugly enough to permit being fixed during this >>> week of "pre-release code freeze" or not. James? >>> >>>> That's right. The s are currently children of , >>>> but per https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/448/ , we need to move >>>> these to be children of , , or . > > From lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 21 09:25:45 2013 From: lou.burnard at retired.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:25:45 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <51C452F6.9030901@ultraslavonic.info> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> <51C45129.8020300@it.ox.ac.uk> <51C452F6.9030901@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51C45459.7090209@retired.ox.ac.uk> I dont see what that ticket has to do with the problem though? The link being generated for "bibliography" links is correct following the # sign but the stylesheet is putting the wrong filename (SA instead of BIB) in front of it On 21/06/13 14:19, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > Good catch. I've reopened https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/527/ . > > On 6/21/13 9:12 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> Is it just me, or do the links to the bibliography not seem to be >> working at all then? >> e.g. >> >> Go to >> http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5-Documentation/ws/Guidelines-web/en/html/SA.html#SA-eg-02 >> >> And click on the word 'bibliography' it is a link to: >> >> http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5-Documentation/ws/Guidelines-web/en/html/SA.html#SA-eg-02 >> >> i.e. SA.html rather than BIB.html >> >> That definitely needs fixing and counts as release-blocking if >> someone has time to do so? >> >> -James >> >> >> On 21/06/13 04:44, Martin Holmes wrote: >>> What are you seeing that looks wrong? The pointers look OK to me: >>> >>> >>> >>> The only slight oddity is the occasional nesting of parentheses, I think. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Martin >>> >>> On 13-06-20 08:21 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: >>>> OK. Changes checked in (at rev 12293). I've closed 448, too. However, >>>> the stylesheets don't render a in the middle of a bibliographic >>>> citation all that well. >>>> >>>> I don't know if it's ugly enough to permit being fixed during this >>>> week of "pre-release code freeze" or not. James? >>>> >>>>> That's right. The s are currently children of , >>>>> but per https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/448/ , we need to move >>>>> these to be children of , , or . >> From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jun 21 09:26:00 2013 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:26:00 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <51C452F6.9030901@ultraslavonic.info> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> <51C45129.8020300@it.ox.ac.uk> <51C452F6.9030901@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <20932.21608.106967.847179@emt.ad.brown.edu> > Good catch. I've reopened https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/527/ . This has nothing to do with 527. It's a pandemic stylesheet error, I'm pretty sure. (Happens in any chapter; I don't think it was happening yesterday, BTW.) IMHO it is release-blocking. I won't have time to look for the problem until tomorrow. But someone else may have already solved it by then. From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Jun 21 09:27:03 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:27:03 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <51C45459.7090209@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> <51C45129.8020300@it.ox.ac.uk> <51C452F6.9030901@ultraslavonic.info> <51C45459.7090209@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C454A7.9000307@ultraslavonic.info> I believe?though haven't verified because I'm attending a conference all day today?that when the notes were moved from the chapters, the values of their @target attributes were kept as is, leading to this behavior. On 6/21/13 9:25 AM, Lou Burnard wrote: > I dont see what that ticket has to do with the problem though? The link > being generated for "bibliography" links is correct following the # sign > but the stylesheet is putting the wrong filename (SA instead of BIB) in > front of it > > > On 21/06/13 14:19, Kevin Hawkins wrote: >> Good catch. I've reopened https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/527/ . >> >> On 6/21/13 9:12 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>> Is it just me, or do the links to the bibliography not seem to be >>> working at all then? >>> e.g. >>> >>> Go to >>> http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5-Documentation/ws/Guidelines-web/en/html/SA.html#SA-eg-02 >>> >>> And click on the word 'bibliography' it is a link to: >>> >>> http://teijenkins.hcmc.uvic.ca/job/TEIP5-Documentation/ws/Guidelines-web/en/html/SA.html#SA-eg-02 >>> >>> i.e. SA.html rather than BIB.html >>> >>> That definitely needs fixing and counts as release-blocking if >>> someone has time to do so? >>> >>> -James >>> >>> >>> On 21/06/13 04:44, Martin Holmes wrote: >>>> What are you seeing that looks wrong? The pointers look OK to me: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The only slight oddity is the occasional nesting of parentheses, I think. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Martin >>>> >>>> On 13-06-20 08:21 PM, Syd Bauman wrote: >>>>> OK. Changes checked in (at rev 12293). I've closed 448, too. However, >>>>> the stylesheets don't render a in the middle of a bibliographic >>>>> citation all that well. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know if it's ugly enough to permit being fixed during this >>>>> week of "pre-release code freeze" or not. James? >>>>> >>>>>> That's right. The s are currently children of , >>>>>> but per https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/448/ , we need to move >>>>>> these to be children of , , or . >>> > From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Jun 21 09:30:11 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 09:30:11 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] SF: Allura Tickets 'Priority'. In-Reply-To: <51C3C8B4.5090400@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51BF0EE0.8060009@it.ox.ac.uk> <51C3C8B4.5090400@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <51C45563.8030105@ultraslavonic.info> Hmm ... this isn't happening any more. So puzzling ... On 6/20/13 11:29 PM, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > While anyone can add a comment to a ticket in Allura, you can only > change who it's assigned to or its status by "editing" the ticket. When > you do this, it allows you to edit many fields, including the priority. > Unfortunately, the edit screen always sets the priority to "1(low)" > when you go to this edit screen. I suspect this is a bug in Allura, but > it's such a huge bug that I wonder whether we in fact have "1(low)" set > as the default priority or something -- that is, maybe this is something > we can fix before we try to get the attention of the folks at SourceForge. > > --K. From James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 21 09:37:03 2013 From: James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:37:03 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <20932.21608.106967.847179@emt.ad.brown.edu> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> <51C45129.8020300@it.ox.ac.uk> <51C452F6.9030901@ultraslavonic.info> <20932.21608.106967.847179@emt.ad.brown.edu> Message-ID: <51C456FF.2050501@it.ox.ac.uk> You are right that it has nothing to do with this ticket. Just when I was looking at that ticket I noticed it and thought I should mention it so someone can fix the Stylesheet error. (I won't have time to today.) -James On 21/06/13 14:26, Syd Bauman wrote: >> Good catch. I've reopened https://sourceforge.net/p/tei/bugs/527/ . > > This has nothing to do with 527. It's a pandemic stylesheet error, I'm > pretty sure. (Happens in any chapter; I don't think it was happening > yesterday, BTW.) > > IMHO it is release-blocking. I won't have time to look for the problem > until tomorrow. But someone else may have already solved it by then. > -- Dr James Cummings, James.Cummings at it.ox.ac.uk Academic IT Services, University of Oxford From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 21 09:38:54 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:38:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] idno -> ptr In-Reply-To: <51C45129.8020300@it.ox.ac.uk> References: <20931.3477.942658.73548@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C320A3.7080103@ultraslavonic.info> <20931.50850.806783.743591@emt.ad.brown.edu> <51C3CC39.8080405@uvic.ca> <51C45129.8020300@it.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4b4c5930-5759-427c-bd8a-ebd197ed58b6@HUB01.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 21 Jun 2013, at 14:12, James Cummings wrote: > > Is it just me now working ok (you'll see after next round of builds) -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 21 09:54:23 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 13:54:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] deprecation display Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3E486C@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> see eg http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-relationGrp.html can we have that for the release, and maybe wordsmith it for the winter release? obviously anyone can tweak the CSS -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info Fri Jun 21 10:01:42 2013 From: kevin.s.hawkins at ultraslavonic.info (Kevin Hawkins) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:01:42 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> References: <51C363F7.20507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51C45CC6.8000700@ultraslavonic.info> On 6/20/13 4:20 PM, Lou Burnard wrote: > > On 20/06/13 19:36, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> see >> >> http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-join.html >> http://bits.nsms.ox.ac.uk:8080/jenkins/job/TEIP5/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-relationGrp.html >> >> one bit more to do. >> >> shout now if you want a different form of words. > > > Could the word "Deprecated" be a link to a page briefly outlining our > deprecation policy? > > "This feature will be withdrawn on " seems a bit clearer than > "Valid until " (which sounds more like a coupon for something) I'm sorry, I should have read this more closely earlier. We don't that it will removed on that date, just sometime after then. So this is misleading. We need something like: This feature will be withdrawn after From sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 21 10:55:51 2013 From: sebastian.rahtz at it.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 14:55:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Re: rendering of @validUntil in the Guidelines In-Reply-To: <51C45CC6.8000700@ultraslavonic.info> References: <51C363F7.20507@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C3641C.3070904@retired.ox.ac.uk> <51C45CC6.8000700@ultraslavonic.info> Message-ID: <3D11821D65070D4BADB84B46F7FE203C1A3E5267@MBX09.ad.oak.ox.ac.uk> On 21 Jun 2013, at 15:01, Kevin Hawkins wrote: > I'm sorry, I should have read this more closely earlier. We don't that > it will removed on that date, just sometime after then. So this is > misleading. We need something like: > > This feature will be withdrawn after the phrase is now in P5/Utilities/guidelines.xsl.model, template my18n, so folks can edit away as they please without any need to touch Stylesheets. which is good. -- Sebastian Rahtz Director (Research) of Academic IT University of Oxford IT Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From mholmes at uvic.ca Fri Jun 21 11:09:58 2013 From: mholmes at uvic.ca (Martin Holmes) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 08:09:58 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Permission to fix something, boss? Message-ID: <51C46CC6.70606@uvic.ca> Hi James, I noticed there's something odd about an example for