From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Jan 2 23:09:19 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 23:09:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI in HTML Guidelines Message-ID: Based on the current stylesheets, TEI in the Guidelines is output as HTML when it has no @type attribute, otherwise the transform is Problem is, the current CSS doesn't handle any of the resulting hyphenated ident classes. Here is a list of all of them in use: ident ident-class ident-datatype ident-feature ident-file ident-frag ident-ge ident-kw ident-macro ident-model.ptrLike ident-module ident-ns ident-pe ident-rng ident-schema ident-schemafrag ident-var Is it safe to assume that all of these identifiers would make sense in HTML presented as boldface? If so, we can use a CSS 2.0 attribute selection rule to accomplish that: span[class|=ident] { font-weight: bold; } Firefox and Safari support this. The alternative is a tedious hand-listing of all of those class values in the CSS, or living with phrases like the module tei described in the present chapter where the unemphasized "tei" is rather odd. I'd like to propose that we simply modify P5/odd.css, changing span.ident { font-weight: bold; } to the rule above. It may not work with Internet Explorer, but that just means MSIE users get status quo. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager Electronic Imprint, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400318, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://www.ei.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 3 18:20:31 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 23:20:31 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Re: comments on CH from Brett Zamir] In-Reply-To: <477288B4.9080103@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4771D2FD.1080407@yahoo.com> <477288B4.9080103@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <477D6DBF.50901@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Just to clarify again on this - none of the automated XSL (etc) processes which the Guidelines go through do any line breaking in text nodes (except in pretty-printing examples). XSL leaves line breaks in text nodes alone (though CR/LF combinations are all reduced to a single ). Removing all carriage returns in text nodes and replacing them by spaces in the Guidelines source may sound attractive, but I suspect the examples would foul up. Wanting a quiet life, I'd not risk it..... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 3 19:12:02 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 00:12:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: [...] > Problem is, the current CSS doesn't handle any of the resulting > hyphenated ident classes. Here is a list of all of them in use: > > ident > ident-class > ident-datatype > ident-feature > ident-file > ident-frag > ident-ge > ident-kw > ident-macro > ident-model.ptrLike > ident-module > ident-ns > ident-pe > ident-rng > ident-schema > ident-schemafrag > ident-var > [...] > Firefox and Safari support this. The alternative is a tedious > hand-listing of all of those class values in the CSS, If this was a significantly longer list, then I might feel that 'tedious hand-listing' was accurate. While I recognise the temptation to use the CSS2 attribute selection and would agree that this was the way to go if the list was a hundred or so, but given that it is 17 it seems significantly easier and browser backwards-compatible to just list each one of these. Just my two pence, -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Jan 3 21:13:45 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 19:13:45 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Call for Nominations: TEI-C Council Chair Message-ID: <1199412825.10057.17.camel@localhost> SECOND CALL -- Apologies for cross posting [Note to council members: we are particularly interested in your opinions and suggestions on this matter!] Christian Wittern, who has served so ably as TEI Council Chair since 2003, stepped down at the end of his third term on December 31st, 2007. To assist it in its deliberations, the TEI Board is seeking nominations (including self-nominations) for candidates to replace Professor Wittern in this important post. Nominees need not be members of the TEI, its Board, or Council. The successful candidate will be appointed to both the Board and Council for an initial term of two years. As an officer of the Consortium, the Council Chair is not remunerated. The Council is assigned a significant budget for travel and other costs including technical support and editorial assistance, however. The Council Chair is responsible for directing the activities of the Council and its workgroups. This involves maintaining and developing the Guidelines and proposing and assisting in the development of training documents and tutorials, technical services, and collaborations between the TEI and other organisations. In keeping with the emphasis of the 2007 Members' Meeting, the board is particularly interested in candidates who share the Board's interest in improving the Consortium's work on outreach, education, and collaboration. The Board intends to appoint a replacement for Professor Wittern within the next six weeks. Nominations should be directed to the Executive Secretary, Chris Ruotolo (ruotolo at virginia.edu), no later than 1200 UTC on January 11, 2008. For further information, please feel free to contact the Consortium Chair, Daniel Paul O'Donnell (daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca) or any member of the Consortium Board (see http://www.tei-c.org/About/board.xml for a list with contact addresses). -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Jan 3 22:09:59 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:09:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jan 2008, James Cummings wrote: > David Sewell wrote: > [...] >> Problem is, the current CSS doesn't handle any of the resulting >> hyphenated ident classes. Here is a list of all of them in use: >> >> ident >> ident-class >> ident-datatype >> ident-feature >> ident-file >> ident-frag >> ident-ge >> ident-kw >> ident-macro >> ident-model.ptrLike >> ident-module >> ident-ns >> ident-pe >> ident-rng >> ident-schema >> ident-schemafrag >> ident-var >> > [...] >> Firefox and Safari support this. The alternative is a tedious >> hand-listing of all of those class values in the CSS, > > If this was a significantly longer list, then I might feel that 'tedious > hand-listing' was accurate. > > While I recognise the temptation to use the CSS2 attribute selection and would > agree that this was the way to go if the list was a hundred or so, but given > that it is 17 it seems significantly easier and browser backwards-compatible to > just list each one of these. Hmm. Of the above, in the XML source, was an error which I've corrected. Of the rest, most represent "things" in TEI such as modules and class names, and boldface seems appropriate. Three, however, should perhaps be in italics: ident-file = file name ident-ns = namespace name ident-var = variable name OK? -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 4 13:47:16 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 18:47:16 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I incline to James' view, keep them distinct in the CSS to be on safe side. Mind you, I question the usefulness of distinguishing between these: ident-feature ident-frag ident-ge ident-kw ident-macro ident-pe ident-var a) what are pe and ge and macro? and when is a feature not a var? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 4 13:56:23 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 18:56:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I incline to James' view, keep them distinct in the CSS > to be on safe side. > > I agree with this, to some extent. See below. > Mind you, I question the usefulness of > distinguishing between these: > > ident-feature > ident-frag > ident-ge > ident-kw > ident-macro > ident-pe > ident-var > > a) what are pe and ge and macro? and when is a feature not a var? > > pe and ge are parameter and general entity names respectively. I think a "feature" is specifically the name of a feature in the FSR chapter. I can look into where these are actually used, but I think they are both pretty infrequent, and inconsistently applied (i.e. I'll bet there are variable identifiers which are not tagged with @type=var). The best course is surely to have a default rendition for all s, irrespective of @type value, and then supply specific values for the most common and usefully distinguished values. Not constraining @type vallists is always going to come back and bite you in the end. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 4 13:58:49 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 18:58:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <477E81E9.8030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou's Laptop wrote: > pe and ge are parameter and general entity names respectively. do we still have enough to usefully distinguish them? > I think a "feature" is specifically the name of a feature in the FSR > chapter. I can look into where these are actually used, but I think > they are both pretty infrequent, and inconsistently applied (i.e. I'll > bet there are variable identifiers which are not tagged with > @type=var). The best course is surely to have a default rendition for > all s, irrespective of @type value, and then supply specific > values for the most common and usefully distinguished values. yes. I'd remove the @type unless it was genuinely consistently applied - which it may be, to be fair > > Not constraining @type vallists is always going to come back and bite > you in the end. we can indeed do so for the Gidelines, of course -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 4 16:12:08 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 21:12:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <477EA128.3080703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I've now done a bit of a tidy up on the values used for the @type attribute on . The following usages seem worth distinguishing; their frequencies in the current Guidelines are as follows: 2 ge [general entity name] 2 rng [rng identifier] 4 frag [dtd fragment identifier] 4 macro 5 ns [namespace] 7 schema 11 pe [parameter entity name] 13 datatype 22 file 27 [unspecified] 65 module 345 class > Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> I incline to James' view, keep them distinct in the CSS >> to be on safe side. >> >> >> > I agree with this, to some extent. See below. > > >> Mind you, I question the usefulness of >> distinguishing between these: >> >> ident-feature >> ident-frag >> ident-ge >> ident-kw >> ident-macro >> ident-pe >> ident-var >> >> a) what are pe and ge and macro? and when is a feature not a var? >> >> >> > pe and ge are parameter and general entity names respectively. I think > a "feature" is specifically the name of a feature in the FSR chapter. I > can look into where these are actually used, but I think they are both > pretty infrequent, and inconsistently applied (i.e. I'll bet there are > variable identifiers which are not tagged with @type=var). The best > course is surely to have a default rendition for all s, > irrespective of @type value, and then supply specific values for the > most common and usefully distinguished values. > > Not constraining @type vallists is always going to come back and bite > you in the end. > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 4 16:56:19 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 21:56:19 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <477EA128.3080703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477EA128.3080703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <477EAB83.2070009@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou's Laptop wrote: > I've now done a bit of a tidy up on the values used for the @type > attribute on . > The following usages seem worth distinguishing; their frequencies in > the current Guidelines are as follows: > > 2 ge [general entity name] > 2 rng [rng identifier] > 4 frag [dtd fragment identifier] > 4 macro > 5 ns [namespace] > 7 schema > 11 pe [parameter entity name] > 13 datatype > 22 file > 27 [unspecified] > 65 module > 345 class so I'll enforce that in the schema for P5, then? any other @type lists we can freeze in the same way? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 11:31:37 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:31:37 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <477E82D8.7050102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E81E9.8030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E82D8.7050102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <477FB0E9.9090106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I have added closed s for @type on
, and into the ODD which is used to validate the Guidelines source. It seems sensible to me to document our practice. I took the opportunity to normalize some of the values on
and ; e.g. I think preserving
is possibly less than useful :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 11:41:08 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 16:41:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] release of P5 to fix bug? Message-ID: <477FB324.7010805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> As you'll have seen on TEI-L, Jon Noring reported what turned out to be a very serious bug in DTD fragment generation. It has gone unspotted presumably because fewer people use the old DOCTYPE-subset method these days. I am reluctant to rush out a release immediately, because valuable corrigenda are coming in, eg from Brett Zamir, and David S is in the throes of a valuable pass through; but equally I don't want to hang on for ever with the DTD fragments being plain wrong. I therefore propose to make a release at the end of this month, come what may. Would you all be happy with this? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Jan 5 13:49:03 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 13:49:03 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] jing doesn't like Schematron in Leopard? Message-ID: <18303.53535.255761.204839@emt.wwp.brown.edu> I very recently upgraded from Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) to Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard). When I tried to build P5 I found that the step jing p5.sch Source/Guidelines/en/guidelines-en.xml never completed. I eventually commented it out of the Makefile in order to build P5 at all. I am running the Fink-installed (from source, there are no binaries for Leopard yet) jing version 20030619. And I note that jing p5.sch Source/Specs/ptr.xml does work. Any thoughts? Anyone else experience this or know of jing or java problems in Leopard? From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Jan 5 13:53:11 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 13:53:11 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] [TEI-L] ptr definition In-Reply-To: <477E2EC5.2070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <477DEF6C.50806@hab.de> <477E2EC5.2070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18303.53783.308991.207009@emt.wwp.brown.edu> So, we're up against a schema-problem. There was significant discussion during which it was suggested that our next release should contain *no* schema changes, and although no definitive decision was reached, it seems that many are operating under that assumption. However, Torsten Schassan's colleague Thomas St?cker pointed out a discrepancy in the definition of , which I would say is the result of an error: since one of either target= or cRef= is supposed to be required, the usage= of each should be "req", but that of cRef= is "opt", probably due to cut-and-paste error. I"ve made this change and tested it, but it does make a teeny change to the schema: a element with neither target= nor cRef=, which is currently valid would no longer be. I'm willing to consider this a corrigible error and fix it, but y'all may feel otherwise. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 13:55:20 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 18:55:20 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [TEI-L] ptr definition In-Reply-To: <18303.53783.308991.207009@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <477DEF6C.50806@hab.de> <477E2EC5.2070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18303.53783.308991.207009@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <477FD298.8040405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I'd call that corrigible. This is in the Schematron bit, right? I can't believe anyone really uses that yet anyway..... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Sat Jan 5 15:06:28 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (O'Donnell, Dan) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 13:06:28 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] release of P5 to fix bug? References: <477FB324.7010805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <03AF7903F10BB64CA22CDF89EE5D80BA9B6117@EXCHCL2.uleth.ca> I certainly would. I also don't think we need to apologise for fixing serious bugs asap either though. -----Original Message----- From: tei-council-bounces at lists.village.Virginia.EDU on behalf of Sebastian Rahtz Sent: Sat 05/01/2008 9:41 To: TEI Council Subject: [tei-council] release of P5 to fix bug? As you'll have seen on TEI-L, Jon Noring reported what turned out to be a very serious bug in DTD fragment generation. It has gone unspotted presumably because fewer people use the old DOCTYPE-subset method these days. I am reluctant to rush out a release immediately, because valuable corrigenda are coming in, eg from Brett Zamir, and David S is in the throes of a valuable pass through; but equally I don't want to hang on for ever with the DTD fragments being plain wrong. I therefore propose to make a release at the end of this month, come what may. Would you all be happy with this? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 15:22:10 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 20:22:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > Hi, > > This first chapter raised a number of more questions for me than some > of the others, though, as usual, many are more such stylistic > suggestions. Some suggestions might occasionally seem redundant, but I > think good communicative systems have some inherent redundancy, > especially for dim-wits--I mean slow learners--like me. > > *General issues: > * > 1) Shouldn't specific chapters be prefixed with "Chapter" capitalized > (and same with "Section" too)? > This could be generated by stylesheet if there was a general feeling it should be, obviously. But no-one has suggested it till now. Some of the titles are quite long... > 2) From my limited perspective, customization, unless absolutely > necessary, seems to be something to be avoided rather than encouraged. This is a fundamental point about the TEI. You cannot use the TEI scheme without "customizing" in some sense -- you have to select which modules you want. > HTML had been fractured between only a couple of browsers and it was > frustrating enough. While there may not be TEI processors besides Roma > yet, I imagine that tools will eventually develop to allow browsing > and searching of such documents in specifically focused, user-friendly > ways, given the great potential of such semantically rich documents as > TEI and the increasing popularity of XQuery, etc. I think it is great > that TEI is modular, but, in my humble estimation, I think the > documentation ought to (emphatically) highlight the disadvantages of > customizing, for those who might ever wish to share their documents > beyond their own internal use. > You'll have to tell us what you consider those disadvantages to be, I'm afraid! > *The TEI Infrastructure - **Specific Issues* > > 1.2 - Defining a TEI Schema > > 1) "The method...recommended by these Guidelines is to provide > explicitly or by reference a TEI schema specification against which > the document may be validated." What is the means recommended here in > saying "by reference"? Just by referring to a URL where the > specification is kept? Is there a standard element for doing this > (when not actually including the schema documentation elements)? Maybe the phrase "by reference" is a bit misleading. All it means is that there has to be some way of associating a document instance with its schema. You can do that in a number of different ways, of course, (as discussed elsewhere) but one way is actually to provide the schema and the instance together in the same document -- or to provide some kind of reference for the schema. There is no standard element or attribute for doing that in TEI -- (unless you are using XSD of course) > > 2) "*A TEI-conformant schema* is a specific combination of TEI > modules, *possibly also *including additional declarations that modify > the element and attribute declarations contained by each module, for > example *to suppress or rename some elements*." How can it still be a > TEI-conformant schema if its elements are being renamed? Does this > just mean that the process of renaming, etc. is conformantly-documented? > You need to read the chapter on conformance for the full picture but, for example, a document in which all the element names are translated into German or Chinese according to the mappings provided by the TEI is still a TEI conformant document. > 3) Might I suggest referring to a resources page which includes > reference to Roma for the discussion which mentions that "the > specification may be processed to generate a formal schema..."? If I'm > reading this and looking for help, I have no idea how this process > would be accomplished or where to look. Well, there is already a reference at the end of the next paragraph but one, but there;s no reason not to add another here; so I have. > > 1.3.1 Attribute Classes > > Might I suggest this section beginning with an example of a class with > at least two attributes? You do give an example of a class with only > one attribute later, and I think it is more salient to grasp the > rationale for classes if the example already has more than one attribute. > Good suggestion. As itr happens, att.naming adds more than one attribute so I've added reference to the other one, along with a frurther "rationale" for classes. > 1.3.1.1 For the definition of xml:lang, it can not only indicate the > language of the element content, but also potentially of a text > attribute, no? > Only "potentially" because we have gone to some lengths to abolish "text" attributes. > 1.3.1.1 Might I suggest adding a definition of xml:space here too (and > a section for it?) or even the schema attachment attributes like > xsi:schemaLocation? (since the discussion is for global attributes) > There has been some controversy about that without the Council, and the current feeling seems to be that xml:space is such a bad thing we'd rather not talk about it at all! > 1.3.1.1.1 In reference to @n, it is said "Its value may be any string > of characters". Should this be stated as being limited to > non-whitespace characters? I see the definition in the schema as @n > being of type "data.word", but I'm not familiar with the regular > expression components which define it ((\p{L}|\p{N}|\p{P}|\p{S})+). > This has also been the subject of some controversy. The regular expression syntax is standard enough, but there is some debate as to whether we should relax it a bit more. > 1.3.1.1.1. While I know that @n can be something like "One", it would > seem to me that this kind of usage ought to be discouraged, as it > could make queries much more difficult (e.g., it should be much easier > to process a query for a range from 40-63 than trying to figure out > "forty" to "sixty-three") (Some preparers of these documents must have > no real idea of how useful tagging is for searching, so they don't > give consideration to these things when they make such decisions.) > This is a usage note, I think. Foir some applications it's considered more important to preserve exactly the form ofr the identifier supplied in the original than it is to facilitate its use as a navigation tool -- there are plenty of other ways of doing the latter, after all. > 1.3.1.1.1 While it is described as being "redundant" to add numbering > where there are no unusual deviations, I'd think that their presence > might also indicate during a tagging project that the numbering has or > has not yet been addressed. > "addressed" in what sense? > 1.3.1.1.2 - "The xml:lang attribute indicates the language, writing > system, and character set associated with a given element and all its > contents." Shouldn't this read something like "language, script, and > regional or other variant associated with..."? (Same with the > definition of data.language). > I am not sure why it refers to chatracter set, but I dont think "script and regional or other variant" gains in precision on "writing system" What do others think? > 1.3.1.1.3 - "Although the contents of the rend attribute are free > text, in any given project, encoders are advised *to settle on *a > standard vocabulary with which to describe typographic or manuscript > rendition of the text." Might I suggest changing this to "adopt" > (since otherwise, it might sound a little more like the project > encoders should come up with their own internal standard). > But that's precisely what they *do* do! However, I am happy to "settle on" your proposed rewording. > 1.3.2 - Do divPart, etc. have superclasses all the way to the top? > Aren't all classes eventually orphaned? Why is addrPart unique in such > a regard--just because other classes often have at least one parent or > child class? addrPart is unusual (not unique) because it is used only within one element -- whereas most classes are subclasses of other *classes*. The hierarchy isn;t complete -- not every class goes "all the way to the top". > > 1.4.1 - macro.schemaPattern might be defined to begin "is a pattern to > match elements" rather than as "A pattern to match elements..." since > the other macros (at least in this context) all include the title > within a sentence, rather than starting a new sentence. That's a flagrant breach of house style: thanks for spotting it! > > 1.4.2 - The documentation states "TEI-defined datatypes may be grouped > into those which define normalised values for numeric quantities or > probabilities, those which define various kinds of short-hand codes or > keys, and those which define pointers or links" What about dates, > etc., as mentioned in detail shortly afterward? OK, added reference to tremporal expressions. > > 1.4.2 - Maybe add "ISO" in front of "international standard" for the > definition for data.temporal.iso (I know its in the name itself, but > it might help clarify...). > Doesnt "international standard" *mean* ISO? > 1.4.2 - I made a change here to give an example which started with an > underscore > > 1.4.2. - Re: data.enumerated, "This list may be open (in which case > the list is advisory..." to the following?: > "This list may be open (in which case the list is > advisory, following "TEI Recommended Practice"--see section 23.3 > Conformance) Have added wording similar to this. > > 1.4.2 - Mention that data.code is of the URI type? > we use the term data.pointer. > 1.4.2. - "An attribute may, of course, take more than one value of a > given type, for example a list of pointer values, or a list of words. > In the TEI scheme, this information is regarded as a property of the > datatype element used to document the attribute in question rather > than as a distinct datatype" But DTD's, etc. may distinguish in some > cases (e.g., NMTOKEN vs. NMTOKENS). Does such a difference in TEI > still allow translation of the difference into the DTDs/schemas? (I > presume it does, just wanted to check.) Yes, this is implemented by the ODD processor that generates the schema. > > 1.5 (very end of chapter) - Do the RELAX NG null values need also to > be in a particular order? Otherwise, it seems this information doesn't > belong here according to the context (that the classes are arranged in > order), unless there is a stronger transition. > Yes, I believe they do need to be declared first. > Unrelated issue: > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-data.outputMeasurement.html > spells XSLFO without a hyphen > Not any more it doesn't. > take care, > Brett I'll try! Lou From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 5 17:07:40 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2008 22:07:40 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <477FFFAC.60204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> If document A has 26 elements from the TEI as a whole, and document B uses 426 elements which are a superset of the document As, then the same processors can deal with both. Both documents are "TEI". Their creators can usefully define very different schemas for their daily working practices, but both conform to a mega TEI schema. What I am getting is that Brett's deprecation of customization seems to me a misunderstanding; a customization is nearly always no more than a _subset_ of the TEI, and as such is simply a declaration of usage by the creator, not a declaration of independence. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sun Jan 6 03:52:57 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 03:52:57 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <477FB0E9.9090106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E81E9.8030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E82D8.7050102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477FB0E9.9090106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18304.38633.501005.707480@emt.wwp.brown.edu> While I'm super glad this is being done -- it is so oviously, at least to me, the right thing to do -- it does seem like too little too late. It would have been very nice to have these contraints in place over the past two years. It would probably also make sense to constrain the scheme= attributes of and . Counts of occurences: 2 1 3 2 3 1 8 1 1 1 2 77 21 8 44 1 30 125 71 44 109 1
1
35
154
237
75
1
1 1 1 1 1 345 14 22 4 2 4 66 5 11 2 7 23 2 1 2 117 49 54 25 27 21 7 1 1 5 1 38 35 23 56 66 1 12 1 <title type='sub'> 11 <title type='subordinate'> 1 <titlePart type='main'> 51 <valList type='closed'> 29 <valList type='open'> 29 <valList type='semi'> From Syd_Bauman at brown.edu Sun Jan 6 11:26:55 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 11:26:55 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI <ident> in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <4780BC2C.9020705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.0.99.0801022244310.2132@sewell-ibook.local> <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E81E9.8030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E82D8.7050102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477FB0E9.9090106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18304.38633.501005.707480@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <4780BC2C.9020705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18305.335.822143.18070@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > can you expand on these? what are "XI", "XML" and "extreme"? Yes, I can, although I hope their context makes 'em self-evident: XI = XInclude XML = extensible markup language extreme = Extreme Markup Languages "paper" DTD (2004) > > 1 <name type='class'> > > 5 <name type='datatype'> > > 38 <name type='xpscheme'> > i wonder about these. not <ident>? Well, I claim that these (and many, many, things encoded as <ident> in the Guidelines) are more naturally described as <name>s than as <ident>s. I say this in part because in natural language we say that the encoded strings are the names of the entities being discussed. E.g., we say that "att.datable.w3c" is the name of a class which confers upon its members a set of dating attributes that are restricted to using W3C format dates in their values. Personally, I prefer to reserve <ident> for strings that more uniquely pick out an entity than a name does. Others use <ident> for any name from a formal language. However, I'm all in favor of consistency, so I think either a) they should all be changed to <ident>; or, better still, b) all of the <ident>s should be changed to <name>s. This is one of the things I had wanted to do in the last 2 months before release as part of a sweep through phrase-level encoding, but wasn't able to for obvious reasons. > > 1 <name type='organization'> > i wonder about these. not <ident>? No, this one should stay as is, or better yet be an <orgName>. > > 23 <ptr type='div1'> > > 56 <ptr type='div2'> > > 66 <ptr type='div3'> > > > not sure what the point of [these] are? I'm inclined to delete > those values are probably not being consistently applied, and not > having any implementation. As far as I'm concerned they should have been deleted long ago. I can't make these changes myself this morning, but may have time in the afternoon. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 6 18:40:05 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 23:40:05 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war Message-ID: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> See what you think of http://users.ox.ac.uk/~rahtz/Guidelines.pdf now. I have: - added citation info for examples - sorted problem of link to section headings going to just below heading - added use of attributes to the index - added bookmarks for TOC and Index - added elements, attributes, classes, macros to the index I suspect you will not like the way I have linked examples to the bibliography; this is an artefact of several things, including the bizarre way I sort the bibliography, and the way I put a gray background behind examples. Believe me, I have spent a lot of hours on this, and have tried the obvious approaches. There also remain some cases of code extending into the right margin. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 6 11:54:44 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:54:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI <ident> in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <18304.38633.501005.707480@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.0.99.0801022244310.2132@sewell-ibook.local> <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E81E9.8030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E82D8.7050102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477FB0E9.9090106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18304.38633.501005.707480@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <478107D4.10506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > Counts of occurences: > > These would be more useful if they included a count for the case where the attribute (scheme or type) is *not* specified. > 2 <att scheme='HORSE'> > 1 <att scheme='RNGANN'> > 3 <att scheme='XHTML'> > 2 <att scheme='XI'> > 3 <att scheme='XML'> > 1 <att scheme='extreme'> > 8 <att scheme='imaginary'> > Is there anything to be gained by distinguishing schemes to this level of detail? I can see a case for distinguishing "TEI" (the default) from "Other" and possibly from "imaginary", but going beyond that seems fairly useless to me. Why would we ever want to distinguish an XHTML attribute from an XI one (and what is the XML scheme anyway -- does it mean "namespace"?) > 1 <gi scheme='DBK'> > 1 <gi scheme='SMIL'> > 1 <gi scheme='SVG'> > 2 <gi scheme='extreme'> > 77 <gi scheme='imaginary'> > > > as above ... > 23 <idno type='doi'> > 2 <idno type='handle'> > 1 <idno type='isbn'> > 2 <idno type='tei'> > 117 <idno type='url'> > what on earth is a TEI type idno? > 21 <macroSpec type='dt'> presumably this means datatype, so why not call it "datatype" > 7 <macroSpec type='pe'> > > 1 <moduleSpec type='core'> > this looks erroneous > 1 <name type='class'> > 5 <name type='datatype'> > these should be <ident>s > 1 <name type='organization'> > How many <name>s of other kinds of things are there? is it worth specifying just this one > 38 <name type='xpscheme'> > > maybe these should be <ident>s too? > 35 <ptr type='cit'> > 23 <ptr type='div1'> > 56 <ptr type='div2'> > 66 <ptr type='div3'> > I suspect there are gazillions of <ptr>s which don't supply a type attribute to mean (as I assume these do) targType. If so, I think consistency would be better served by removing these. > 1 <relatedItem type='original'> > wot on earth is that? > 12 <title type='main'> > 1 <title type='sub'> > 11 <title type='subordinate'> > the second two shd be merged, clearly From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 04:27:39 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 09:27:39 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI <ident> in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <18305.335.822143.18070@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.0.99.0801022244310.2132@sewell-ibook.local> <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E81E9.8030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E82D8.7050102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477FB0E9.9090106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18304.38633.501005.707480@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <4780BC2C.9020705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18305.335.822143.18070@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4781F08B.4000400@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: >> can you expand on these? what are "XI", "XML" and "extreme"? >> > > Yes, I can, although I hope their context makes 'em self-evident: > XI = XInclude > XML = extensible markup language > extreme = Extreme Markup Languages "paper" DTD (2004) > XI and extreme are schemas, but what is "XML"? > However, I'm all in favor of consistency, so I think either > a) they should all be changed to <ident>; or, better still, > b) all of the <ident>s should be changed to <name>s. > poss better to leave the sleeping dogs; but if you do b), beware that formatting will change.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 04:44:10 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 09:44:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI <ident> in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <478107D4.10506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.0.99.0801022244310.2132@sewell-ibook.local> <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E81E9.8030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E82D8.7050102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477FB0E9.9090106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18304.38633.501005.707480@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <478107D4.10506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4781F46A.9010807@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou's Laptop wrote: > >> 21 <macroSpec type='dt'> >> > presumably this means datatype, so why not call it "datatype" > ahem, please lets not start redesigning ODD this week.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 11:44:56 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:44:56 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI <ident> in HTML Guidelines Message-ID: <E1JBqQi-0006Pa-53@smtp1.mail.ox.ac.uk> I have now made usage of ident and name consistet across p5. As\far as possible, anyway. -----Original Message----- From: "Sebastian Rahtz" <sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk> To: Syd_Bauman at brown.edu Cc: "TEI Council" <tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU> Sent: 07/01/08 04:27 Subject: Re: [tei-council] Styling of TEI <ident> in HTML Guidelines Syd Bauman wrote: >> can you expand on these? what are "XI", "XML" and "extreme"? >> > > Yes, I can, although I hope their context makes 'em self-evident: > XI = XInclude > XML = extensible markup language > extreme = Extreme Markup Languages "paper" DTD (2004) > XI and extreme are schemas, but what is "XML"? > However, I'm all in favor of consistency, so I think either > a) they should all be changed to <ident>; or, better still, > b) all of the <ident>s should be changed to <name>s. > poss better to leave the sleeping dogs; but if you do b), beware that formatting will change.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 07:10:29 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:10:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I have updated http://users.ox.ac.uk/~rahtz/Guidelines.pdf to do the citation for examples better, and fix an indexing problem -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 6 06:31:56 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 11:31:56 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI <ident> in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <18304.38633.501005.707480@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.0.99.0801022244310.2132@sewell-ibook.local> <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E81E9.8030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E82D8.7050102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477FB0E9.9090106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18304.38633.501005.707480@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4780BC2C.9020705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > It would have been very nice to have these contraints in > place over the past two years. > I can only agree. > Counts of occurences: > > 2 <att scheme='HORSE'> > 1 <att scheme='RNGANN'> > 3 <att scheme='XHTML'> > 2 <att scheme='XI'> > 3 <att scheme='XML'> > 1 <att scheme='extreme'> > 8 <att scheme='imaginary'> > can you expand on these? what are "XI", "XML" and "extreme"? > 44 <classSpec type='atts'> > 109 <classSpec type='model'> > built in > 21 <macroSpec type='dt'> > 7 <macroSpec type='pe'> > > built in > 1 <name type='class'> > 5 <name type='datatype'> > 1 <name type='organization'> > 38 <name type='xpscheme'> > i wonder about these. not <ident>? > 35 <ptr type='cit'> > 23 <ptr type='div1'> > 56 <ptr type='div2'> > 66 <ptr type='div3'> > not sure what the point of the latter 3 are? I'm inclined to delete those values are probably not being consistently applied, and not having any implementation. > 51 <valList type='closed'> > 29 <valList type='open'> > 29 <valList type='semi'> > > built in -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 07:52:02 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:52:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I have updated http://users.ox.ac.uk/~rahtz/Guidelines.pdf > to do the citation for examples better, and fix an > indexing problem I don't know if I'm just being overly pedantic (what, who, me?) but are we being presentationally dishonest in providing a full citation after an example? If I see a big shaded block quote, and underneath it I see: Shields, David. Dead Languages, HarperCollins Canada/Perennial Rack, rpt. 1990, p.10. Then what that means to me is that the big shaded block quote comes from this book by David Shields. Specifically that if I turn to page 10 of the book that I'll see this example there...and in my mind that would include the markup that we've put around it. This isn't the case, the *text* and in some cases linguistic information, may be from the work cited, but it is not a quotation from the text. (i.e. it is academically honest of us to cite it, well done, but academically dishonest of us to be presenting it in a way which might be confused for a citation for a quotation. Interestingly, the TEI Markup is more accurate in using @corresp) When the TEI Guidelines started there weren't (many) TEI encoded texts. Now we have a lot more, and our examples may indeed draw on real existing marked up texts as examples of markup. One could argue that some of the Chaucer examples are existing texts, but I don't think they exist in exact the format used in the Guidelines. But, in general, I'd be in favour of using real existing TEI examples where the community wished to make them available. This distinction (that we provide the markup) was obvious previously, but increasingly is less so. The problem comes when we cite two examples in the same way, one which is an existing TEI text and one which is a text where we've provided the markup. If in both cases we just provide a citation underneath then it just seems wrong to me. Since the works cited list has a numbering system why not just use that? (Ignoring Sebastian's plaintiff cries of having to pre-sort this or similar.) Thus we'd either just provide a number in square brackets, or some leading text such as: [12] Source: [12] Text from: [12] or similar. Which in the electronic version would be a link to that item in the Works Cited, and in the printed version would mean you could go find it if you really needed to. In the majority of examples the source of the text is of little or no relevance to the information about TEI markup being explained. Maybe it is just me. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 08:01:00 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 13:01:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4782228C.1030705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> try again now, James. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 09:19:05 2008 From: elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk (Elena Pierazzo) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:19:05 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <478234D9.3000300@kcl.ac.uk> Just to add some more pedantic remarks (contending James the role), but I don't think that sections as: - Releases of the TEI Guidelines - Dedication - (and maybe) Preface and Acknowledgments are "Chapter"s. Couldn't they be left alone without a Chapter heading? Table at p. 2/3 extends into the right margin. As other bibliographical entries are clickable, perhaps also the source number that appears after the example could be as well (well, I know that the pdf are supposed to be printed rather than browsed, but as links are provided everywhere I think that those should be provided as well). Finally: thank you for the gray boxes, they are so much better! Elena Sebastian Rahtz ha scritto: > I have updated http://users.ox.ac.uk/~rahtz/Guidelines.pdf > to do the citation for examples better, and fix an > indexing problem > > -- Elena Pierazzo Associate Researcher Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane 7 Arundel St London WC2B 5RL Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 From dsewell at virginia.edu Sun Jan 6 20:08:05 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 20:08:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] jing doesn't like Schematron in Leopard? In-Reply-To: <18303.53535.255761.204839@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <18303.53535.255761.204839@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801061956560.12668@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Syd, I've just started working with the TEI Sourceforge repository on a new iMac that has Leopard (10.5.1). I'm not using Fink at the moment, but I just experimented with building things by using the trang and jing that come with oXygen 9.1, which is on my machine. I have a directory $HOME/bin in my PATH, so I created $HOME/bin/jing with this content: #!/bin/sh java -jar /Applications/oxygen/lib/onvdl.jar $@ and made it executable with "chmod u+x jing". (onvdl.jar is oXygen's extension built on Jing, see http://www.oxygenxml.com/onvdl.html ) Then running jing p5.sch Source/Guidelines/en/guidelines-en.xml completed fine. To test things, I changed a tag name in the XML file, and running the jing command again produced a complaint as expected. (Just a thought, but do you have the latest Fink version of jing from the unstable distribution?) David On Sat, 5 Jan 2008, Syd Bauman wrote: > I very recently upgraded from Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) to Mac OS X 10.5 > (Leopard). When I tried to build P5 I found that the step > jing p5.sch Source/Guidelines/en/guidelines-en.xml > never completed. I eventually commented it out of the Makefile in > order to build P5 at all. > > I am running the Fink-installed (from source, there are no binaries > for Leopard yet) jing version 20030619. And I note that > jing p5.sch Source/Specs/ptr.xml > does work. > > Any thoughts? Anyone else experience this or know of jing or java > problems in Leopard? > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 09:34:30 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:34:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] jing doesn't like Schematron in Leopard? In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801061956560.12668@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <18303.53535.255761.204839@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801061956560.12668@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <47823876.9010808@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I believe that oXygen changed jing a bit, which may explain the problem -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 10:02:14 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:02:14 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <478234D9.3000300@kcl.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478234D9.3000300@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47823EF6.8090907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Elena Pierazzo wrote: > As other bibliographical entries are clickable, perhaps also the source > number that appears after the example could be as well (well, I know > that the pdf are supposed to be printed rather than browsed, but as > links are provided everywhere I think that those should be provided as > well). Yup, I like the "Source: [14]" style well enough. Sometimes these are flush with the bottom of the grey box (good) and sometimes there is space. Given that it isn't a big long bit of text I'd be willing to see it back inside the grey box if that is significantly easier (though still right-justified and in a different font from the example). But I agree with Elena that they should certainly be clickable. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 10:33:16 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:33:16 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <47823EF6.8090907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478234D9.3000300@kcl.ac.uk> <47823EF6.8090907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4782463C.3010706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > > Yup, I like the "Source: [14]" style well enough. Sometimes these > are flush with the bottom of the grey box (good) and sometimes there > is space. Given that it isn't a big long bit of text I'd be willing > to see it back inside the grey box if that is significantly easier > (though still right-justified and in a different font from the example). > I am not sure about that. I want to avoid text _in_ the box if I possibly can. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 10:41:35 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:41:35 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <4782463C.3010706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478234D9.3000300@kcl.ac.uk> <47823EF6.8090907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4782463C.3010706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4782482F.1040902@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > James Cummings wrote: >> >> Yup, I like the "Source: [14]" style well enough. Sometimes these >> are flush with the bottom of the grey box (good) and sometimes there >> is space. Given that it isn't a big long bit of text I'd be willing >> to see it back inside the grey box if that is significantly easier >> (though still right-justified and in a different font from the example). >> > I am not sure about that. I want to avoid text _in_ the box if I > possibly can. Ok,. then we'll need an equal degree of flushness. Compare the numbers on page 449 and page 450 for example. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 10:56:21 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 15:56:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <4782482F.1040902@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478234D9.3000300@kcl.ac.uk> <47823EF6.8090907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4782463C.3010706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4782482F.1040902@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47824BA5.6080304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > > Ok,. then we'll need an equal degree of flushness. Compare the > numbers on page 449 and page 450 for example. > curious. I am not sure I can explain that. Blame Don Knuth. He does love stretchy space. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 11:08:33 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 16:08:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <478234D9.3000300@kcl.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478234D9.3000300@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47824E81.9040607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Elena Pierazzo wrote: > > are "Chapter"s. Couldn't they be left alone without a Chapter heading? all front matter sections now "Chapter"-less > > Table at p. 2/3 extends into the right margin. fixed > > As other bibliographical entries are clickable, perhaps also the > source number that appears after the example could be as well done > > Finally: thank you for the gray boxes, they are so much better! my pleasure. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Jan 7 13:16:02 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:16:02 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1199729762.5436.19.camel@odonned-eng06> Hi Sebastian, This really is something else! I don't understand what you mean about the index business (unless you mean that you are now indexing elements, attributes, and classes--what do you mean by use of attributes?). I like the version of the linking to the example sources as it now works. James's point about needing to be clear about whether the sources for the citations include the markup or only the text is presumably an editorial thing: the actual content of the note presumably needs to change to reflect the precise nature of the debt. I have a picky point about the index: the explanation of the conventions used at the very beginning should either be separated from the actual index entries by a blank line, or (as I believe is more common) span the top of both columns. It is looking better and better: thanks! -dan On Sun, 2008-06-01 at 23:40 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > See what you think of http://users.ox.ac.uk/~rahtz/Guidelines.pdf now. > > I have: > > - added citation info for examples > - sorted problem of link to section headings going to just below heading > - added use of attributes to the index > - added bookmarks for TOC and Index > - added elements, attributes, classes, macros to the index > > I suspect you will not like the way I have linked examples > to the bibliography; this is an artefact of several things, > including the bizarre way I sort the bibliography, and > the way I put a gray background behind examples. Believe > me, I have spent a lot of hours on this, and have tried > the obvious approaches. > > There also remain some cases of code extending into the right > margin. > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative <http://www.tei-c.org/> Director, Digital Medievalist Project <http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/> Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 13:26:09 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:26:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <1199729762.5436.19.camel@odonned-eng06> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1199729762.5436.19.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <47826EC1.3080105@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Dan O'Donnell wrote: > This really is something else! I don't understand what you mean about > the index business (unless you mean that you are now indexing elements, > attributes, and classes--what do you mean by use of attributes?) I mean I am making an index entry each time attribute A is used on element B in an example. > James's point about needing to be clear about whether the sources for > the citations include the markup or only the text is presumably an > editorial thing: the actual content of the note presumably needs to > change to reflect the precise nature of the debt. > if we ever have a case where an example is used where the source has the markup, we'll have to worry what to do. > I have a picky point about the index: the explanation of the conventions > used at the very beginning should either be separated from the actual > index entries by a blank line, or (as I believe is more common) span the > top of both columns. > that may be a bit tricky, the column-spanning. I'll have a look. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Jan 7 13:29:52 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 11:29:52 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1199730592.5436.32.camel@odonned-eng06> Lou's convinced me on everything below except the standards business: can one not have international standards that are not ISO? What about, for example, doping standards in international athletics, or judging standards in figure skating. Neither are good standards in that they are both problematically implemented, but they are international, do strive for standard status, and are not ISO. On Sat, 2008-05-01 at 20:22 +0000, Lou's Laptop wrote: > Brett Zamir wrote: > > Hi, > > > > This first chapter raised a number of more questions for me than some > > of the others, though, as usual, many are more such stylistic > > suggestions. Some suggestions might occasionally seem redundant, but I > > think good communicative systems have some inherent redundancy, > > especially for dim-wits--I mean slow learners--like me. > > > > *General issues: > > * > > 1) Shouldn't specific chapters be prefixed with "Chapter" capitalized > > (and same with "Section" too)? > > > This could be generated by stylesheet if there was a general feeling it > should be, obviously. But no-one has suggested it till now. Some of the > titles are quite long... > > > 2) From my limited perspective, customization, unless absolutely > > necessary, seems to be something to be avoided rather than encouraged. > This is a fundamental point about the TEI. You cannot use the TEI scheme > without "customizing" in some sense -- you have to select which modules > you want. > > > HTML had been fractured between only a couple of browsers and it was > > frustrating enough. While there may not be TEI processors besides Roma > > yet, I imagine that tools will eventually develop to allow browsing > > and searching of such documents in specifically focused, user-friendly > > ways, given the great potential of such semantically rich documents as > > TEI and the increasing popularity of XQuery, etc. I think it is great > > that TEI is modular, but, in my humble estimation, I think the > > documentation ought to (emphatically) highlight the disadvantages of > > customizing, for those who might ever wish to share their documents > > beyond their own internal use. > > > You'll have to tell us what you consider those disadvantages to be, I'm > afraid! > > > > *The TEI Infrastructure - **Specific Issues* > > > > 1.2 - Defining a TEI Schema > > > > 1) "The method...recommended by these Guidelines is to provide > > explicitly or by reference a TEI schema specification against which > > the document may be validated." What is the means recommended here in > > saying "by reference"? Just by referring to a URL where the > > specification is kept? Is there a standard element for doing this > > (when not actually including the schema documentation elements)? > > Maybe the phrase "by reference" is a bit misleading. All it means is > that there has to be some way of associating a document instance with > its schema. You can do that in a number of different ways, of course, > (as discussed elsewhere) but one way is actually to provide the schema > and the instance together in the same document -- or to provide some > kind of reference for the schema. There is no standard element or > attribute for doing that in TEI -- (unless you are using XSD of course) > > > > 2) "*A TEI-conformant schema* is a specific combination of TEI > > modules, *possibly also *including additional declarations that modify > > the element and attribute declarations contained by each module, for > > example *to suppress or rename some elements*." How can it still be a > > TEI-conformant schema if its elements are being renamed? Does this > > just mean that the process of renaming, etc. is conformantly-documented? > > > You need to read the chapter on conformance for the full picture but, > for example, a document in which all the element names are translated > into German or Chinese according to the mappings provided by the TEI is > still a TEI conformant document. > > > > 3) Might I suggest referring to a resources page which includes > > reference to Roma for the discussion which mentions that "the > > specification may be processed to generate a formal schema..."? If I'm > > reading this and looking for help, I have no idea how this process > > would be accomplished or where to look. > > Well, there is already a reference at the end of the next paragraph but > one, but there;s no reason not to add another here; so I have. > > > > > 1.3.1 Attribute Classes > > > > Might I suggest this section beginning with an example of a class with > > at least two attributes? You do give an example of a class with only > > one attribute later, and I think it is more salient to grasp the > > rationale for classes if the example already has more than one attribute. > > > Good suggestion. As itr happens, att.naming adds more than one attribute > so I've added reference to the other one, along with a frurther > "rationale" for classes. > > > 1.3.1.1 For the definition of xml:lang, it can not only indicate the > > language of the element content, but also potentially of a text > > attribute, no? > > > Only "potentially" because we have gone to some lengths to abolish > "text" attributes. > > > > 1.3.1.1 Might I suggest adding a definition of xml:space here too (and > > a section for it?) or even the schema attachment attributes like > > xsi:schemaLocation? (since the discussion is for global attributes) > > > There has been some controversy about that without the Council, and the > current feeling seems to be that xml:space is such a bad thing we'd > rather not talk about it at all! > > > > 1.3.1.1.1 In reference to @n, it is said "Its value may be any string > > of characters". Should this be stated as being limited to > > non-whitespace characters? I see the definition in the schema as @n > > being of type "data.word", but I'm not familiar with the regular > > expression components which define it ((\p{L}|\p{N}|\p{P}|\p{S})+). > > > > This has also been the subject of some controversy. The regular > expression syntax is standard enough, but there is some debate as to > whether we should relax it a bit more. > > > 1.3.1.1.1. While I know that @n can be something like "One", it would > > seem to me that this kind of usage ought to be discouraged, as it > > could make queries much more difficult (e.g., it should be much easier > > to process a query for a range from 40-63 than trying to figure out > > "forty" to "sixty-three") (Some preparers of these documents must have > > no real idea of how useful tagging is for searching, so they don't > > give consideration to these things when they make such decisions.) > > > > This is a usage note, I think. Foir some applications it's considered > more important to preserve exactly the form ofr the identifier supplied > in the original than it is to facilitate its use as a navigation tool -- > there are plenty of other ways of doing the latter, after all. > > > 1.3.1.1.1 While it is described as being "redundant" to add numbering > > where there are no unusual deviations, I'd think that their presence > > might also indicate during a tagging project that the numbering has or > > has not yet been addressed. > > > "addressed" in what sense? > > > 1.3.1.1.2 - "The xml:lang attribute indicates the language, writing > > system, and character set associated with a given element and all its > > contents." Shouldn't this read something like "language, script, and > > regional or other variant associated with..."? (Same with the > > definition of data.language). > > > I am not sure why it refers to chatracter set, but I dont think "script > and regional or other variant" gains in precision on "writing system" > What do others think? > > > > 1.3.1.1.3 - "Although the contents of the rend attribute are free > > text, in any given project, encoders are advised *to settle on *a > > standard vocabulary with which to describe typographic or manuscript > > rendition of the text." Might I suggest changing this to "adopt" > > (since otherwise, it might sound a little more like the project > > encoders should come up with their own internal standard). > > > But that's precisely what they *do* do! However, I am happy to "settle > on" your proposed rewording. > > > > 1.3.2 - Do divPart, etc. have superclasses all the way to the top? > > Aren't all classes eventually orphaned? Why is addrPart unique in such > > a regard--just because other classes often have at least one parent or > > child class? > > addrPart is unusual (not unique) because it is used only within one > element -- whereas most classes are subclasses of other *classes*. The > hierarchy isn;t complete -- not every class goes "all the way to the top". > > > > > 1.4.1 - macro.schemaPattern might be defined to begin "is a pattern to > > match elements" rather than as "A pattern to match elements..." since > > the other macros (at least in this context) all include the title > > within a sentence, rather than starting a new sentence. > > That's a flagrant breach of house style: thanks for spotting it! > > > > > 1.4.2 - The documentation states "TEI-defined datatypes may be grouped > > into those which define normalised values for numeric quantities or > > probabilities, those which define various kinds of short-hand codes or > > keys, and those which define pointers or links" What about dates, > > etc., as mentioned in detail shortly afterward? > > OK, added reference to tremporal expressions. > > > > 1.4.2 - Maybe add "ISO" in front of "international standard" for the > > definition for data.temporal.iso (I know its in the name itself, but > > it might help clarify...). > > > Doesnt "international standard" *mean* ISO? > > > 1.4.2 - I made a change here to give an example which started with an > > underscore > > > > 1.4.2. - Re: data.enumerated, "This list may be open (in which case > > the list is advisory..." to the following?: > > "This list may be open (in which case the list is > > advisory, following "TEI Recommended Practice"--see section 23.3 > > Conformance) > Have added wording similar to this. > > > > 1.4.2 - Mention that data.code is of the URI type? > > > we use the term data.pointer. > > 1.4.2. - "An attribute may, of course, take more than one value of a > > given type, for example a list of pointer values, or a list of words. > > In the TEI scheme, this information is regarded as a property of the > > datatype element used to document the attribute in question rather > > than as a distinct datatype" But DTD's, etc. may distinguish in some > > cases (e.g., NMTOKEN vs. NMTOKENS). Does such a difference in TEI > > still allow translation of the difference into the DTDs/schemas? (I > > presume it does, just wanted to check.) > > Yes, this is implemented by the ODD processor that generates the schema. > > > > > 1.5 (very end of chapter) - Do the RELAX NG null values need also to > > be in a particular order? Otherwise, it seems this information doesn't > > belong here according to the context (that the classes are arranged in > > order), unless there is a stronger transition. > > > Yes, I believe they do need to be declared first. > > > Unrelated issue: > > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-data.outputMeasurement.html > > spells XSLFO without a hyphen > > > > Not any more it doesn't. > > > > take care, > > Brett > I'll try! > > Lou > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative <http://www.tei-c.org/> Director, Digital Medievalist Project <http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/> Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 13:36:35 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 18:36:35 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: <1199730592.5436.32.camel@odonned-eng06> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1199730592.5436.32.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <47827133.4010303@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Dan O'Donnell wrote: > Lou's convinced me on everything below except the standards business: > can one not have international standards that are not ISO? What about, > for example, doping standards in international athletics, or judging > standards in figure skating. Neither are good standards in that they are > both problematically implemented, but they are international, do strive > for standard status, and are not ISO. > so, they are not international standards, then :-} note your own word "strive". people in management have an ISO standard, I don't see why figure skaters shouldn't too. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Jan 7 14:06:13 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 12:06:13 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: <47827133.4010303@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1199730592.5436.32.camel@odonned-eng06> <47827133.4010303@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1199732773.5436.69.camel@odonned-eng06> I'll cede to those who know better than me. On Mon, 2008-07-01 at 18:36 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Dan O'Donnell wrote: > > Lou's convinced me on everything below except the standards business: > > can one not have international standards that are not ISO? What about, > > for example, doping standards in international athletics, or judging > > standards in figure skating. Neither are good standards in that they are > > both problematically implemented, but they are international, do strive > > for standard status, and are not ISO. > > > so, they are not international standards, then :-} > note your own word "strive". > > people in management have an ISO standard, > I don't see why figure skaters shouldn't too. > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative <http://www.tei-c.org/> Director, Digital Medievalist Project <http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/> Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 14:30:04 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 19:30:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47827DBC.2030606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > > I don't know if I'm just being overly pedantic (what, who, me?) but are we > being presentationally dishonest in providing a full citation after an example? > > I think, yes, you are being a bit pedantic, but it raises quite an important and interesting question as to the status of examples in the Guidelines and elsewhere. As you rightly suggest, the vast majority (possibly even all) of the examples in the Guidelines are not quoted directly from previously tagged works, but instead represent (sometimes several) ways in which parts of some pre-existing work might or should be tagged. It had never occurred to me before now that this was not entirely obvious, but clearly we need to state it, if only to avoid the misconception that you draw attention to. For me the important point here is that the examples demonstrate how to encode real texts rather than stuff made up for the purpose. This keeps us honest, and also imposes the need to cite a source, so that the skeptic may go and determine for themselves whether or not the proposed tagging makes sense in context. And it shows that one USP of the Guidelines is their ability to mark up (readings of) real, pre-existing text, with all their complexity, rather than just provide markup for materials born digital. I don't honestly know whether the community of established TEI practice is yet sufficiently mature or stable enough that it would be helpful to include examples of how *in practice* people use TEI for a wide range of materials. I was rather hoping that the TEI By Example project might answer that question, but its agenda seems to be slightly different -- it uses made up examples, and such extracts as I have read so far suggest that it is purely didactic, rather than exploratory, in its coverage of encoding practice. I don't there are any cases in the Guidelines where we cite an existing TEI encoded text. It's kind of a boot strapping problem! Lou From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 7 18:55:46 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2008 23:55:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <47827DBC.2030606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47827DBC.2030606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4782BC02.9030809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou's Laptop wrote: > James Cummings wrote: >> >> I don't know if I'm just being overly pedantic (what, who, me?) but >> are we being presentationally dishonest in providing a full citation >> after an example? >> >> > I think, yes, you are being a bit pedantic, but it raises quite an > important and interesting question as to the status of examples in the > Guidelines and elsewhere. I thought I might be, but instead of (just) mentioning it to Sebastian I thought I should post it because I feel that one of the things we should work on at some point is the whole framework of examples in the Guidelines and how they function. (Especially with regards to our developing efforts in internationalization.) > As you rightly suggest, the vast majority (possibly even all) of the > examples in the Guidelines are not quoted directly from previously > tagged works, but instead represent (sometimes several) ways in which > parts of some pre-existing work might or should be tagged. Yes, the only example I thought might be real is one of the wife of bath ones, or maybe one of the msDesc ones, but I had no easy way to know/check. > It had never > occurred to me before now that this was not entirely obvious, but > clearly we need to state it, if only to avoid the misconception that you > draw attention to. For some reason it has been entirely obvious to me in reading the web version, it is only when seeing the citation under the example that I suddenly felt uneasy about what we were claiming. > For me the important point here is that the examples demonstrate how to > encode real texts rather than stuff made up for the purpose. This keeps > us honest, and also imposes the need to cite a source, so that the > skeptic may go and determine for themselves whether or not the proposed > tagging makes sense in context. And it shows that one USP of the > Guidelines is their ability to mark up (readings of) real, pre-existing > text, with all their complexity, rather than just provide markup for > materials born digital. I would in no way disagree with this. Yes, the examples should always be real texts, for the reasons you give (if not others as well). In doing so, however, we shouldn't necessarily ignore existing TEI ones. Although it would probably be better for an adjunct document/workshop, wiki, or something _like_ TEI by Example, I could see a pedagogic purpose in showing how an existing project has done something (and their reasoning), and then demonstrating alternative methods to accomplish the same thing. > I don't honestly know whether the community of established TEI practice > is yet sufficiently mature or stable enough that it would be helpful to > include examples of how *in practice* people use TEI for a wide range of > materials. It comes down to the problem of people being unwilling to (easily) share their dirty linen. I don't think we can really judge. Certainly though, this is probably true of TEI P5 at the moment though. Does this mean it would be a bad thing to incorporate examples of TEI encoding from external sources in the Guidelines? If one day in the extremely far distant future *all* the examples (except where pedagogically useful to show parallel methods) were from real existing projects one could cite, would that be a bad thing? (Assuming also that it didn't compromise the breadth and scope of the examples, etc.) > I don't there are any cases in the Guidelines where we cite an existing > TEI encoded text. It's kind of a boot strapping problem! An intriguing one I feel. I'm happy with Sebastian's solution which uses the numbers created in the works cited index. For some reason that seems entirely different compared with having the text there under the example. I'll be the first to admit that this is a completely illogical feeling though. ;-) Best, -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 8 04:40:13 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:40:13 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: <4782E349.3070803@yahoo.com> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477FFFAC.60204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4782E349.3070803@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <478344FD.1060708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > The customization sections refer to various possibilities for > customization, and even in Chapters 22 and 23, they don't seem to > discourage anything strongly except for using the same names as in the > TEI and giving them a different semantic meaning. which is, indeed, more or less what was intended. The TEI has always stood in the middle ground between "make up tags as needed for your project" and "these are my tags thou shalt have these and no other". There is very strong feeling that extending the TEI for a particular area will always be needed. > feel that the documentation is not emphatic enough--or at least to > always make clear that there are serious long-term pitfalls for > customizing in such a way as to break conformance. Those pages were argued about at considerable length, and are inevitably a compromise. I would claim they are much more emphatic than the previous edition, at least. Maybe they can be strengthened further, but we don't want to lose the people in log cabins in Montana who think 100% conformance is a meaningless aim. > > Also, on the opposite end, I think it might also be worth advising > people of why they shouldn't include all of the modules in the first > place. agreed. I thought we did make that point fairly clearly, but perhaps not. I think most of us bang on about this a lot when we teach TEI. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 9 16:52:28 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:52:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI <ident> in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <18305.335.822143.18070@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.0.99.0801022244310.2132@sewell-ibook.local> <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E81E9.8030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E82D8.7050102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477FB0E9.9090106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18304.38633.501005.707480@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <4780BC2C.9020705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18305.335.822143.18070@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4785421C.10309@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > >>> 1 <name type='class'> >>> 5 <name type='datatype'> >>> 38 <name type='xpscheme'> >>> >> i wonder about these. not <ident>? >> > > Well, I claim that these (and many, many, things encoded as <ident> > in the Guidelines) are more naturally described as <name>s than as > <ident>s. Just for the record, I think this is mistaken. Leaving aside the slightly curious notion of "more natural", the point is that <name> is more general in its applicaion than <ident>. All <ident>s are <name>s, but not all <name>s are <ident>s. An <ident> is the name which is used specifically and solely to identify the entity concerned. > I say this in part because in natural language we say that > the encoded strings are the names of the entities being discussed. > E.g., we say that "att.datable.w3c" is the name of a class which > confers upon its members a set of dating attributes that are > restricted to using W3C format dates in their values. We also say that that class has an identifier, namely "att.datable.w3c". > Personally, I > prefer to reserve <ident> for strings that more uniquely pick out an > entity than a name does. Others use <ident> for any name from a > formal language. > > I don't know how you could "more uniquely" pick out the att.datable.w3c class than by supplying its identifier -- the string used as the value for its @ident attribute, no less. > However, I'm all in favor of consistency, so I think either > a) they should all be changed to <ident>; or, better still, > b) all of the <ident>s should be changed to <name>s. > > As mentioned earlier I made the use of <ident> now consistent across P5 last week. The only things still tagged as <name>s are (a) names of programs e.g. jing, (b) half a dozen or so "xpointer scheme" names which I suspect are not used as identifiers. From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Jan 9 22:08:46 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 22:08:46 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <FCADA31B-297E-4F15-8477-72304C508C92@virginia.edu> On Jan 6, 2008, at 6:40 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > See what you think of http://users.ox.ac.uk/~rahtz/Guidelines.pdf now. > > I have: > > - added citation info for examples > - sorted problem of link to section headings going to just below > heading > - added use of attributes to the index > - added bookmarks for TOC and Index > - added elements, attributes, classes, macros to the index > Will there be conceptual terms added to the Index eventually, as there were for the printed P4 Guidelines? Or has this been discussed? (How was it handled for the printed P4 Guidelines?) David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 03:47:45 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:47:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <FCADA31B-297E-4F15-8477-72304C508C92@virginia.edu> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <FCADA31B-297E-4F15-8477-72304C508C92@virginia.edu> Message-ID: <4785DBB1.8030408@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote > Will there be conceptual terms added to the Index eventually, as there > were for the printed P4 > Guidelines? Or has this been discussed? (How was it handled for the > printed P4 Guidelines?) > The P4 index was created automatically from embedded <term> elements and so on. It was not very good then, and it has got worse since (in that new prose has not been consistently seeded with <term>s). It seemed sensible to have no conceptual index rather than a bad conceptual index. I don't see any way of improving this without paying someone to do a conceptual index (hard to imagine anyone doing it for free). Trouble is, even if we did that, keeping it up to date would be hard. Happy to be proved wrong, of course. I suspect you are the best person here to advise, David? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Jan 10 10:06:41 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:06:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <4785DBB1.8030408@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <FCADA31B-297E-4F15-8477-72304C508C92@virginia.edu> <4785DBB1.8030408@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801100953030.17132@lister.ei.virginia.edu> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > David Sewell wrote > > Will there be conceptual terms added to the Index eventually, as there were > > for the printed P4 > > Guidelines? Or has this been discussed? (How was it handled for the printed > > P4 Guidelines?) > > > The P4 index was created automatically from embedded > <term> elements and so on. It was not very good then, > and it has got worse since (in that new prose has not > been consistently seeded with <term>s). It seemed sensible to > have no conceptual index rather than a bad conceptual > index. > > I don't see any way of improving this without > paying someone to do a conceptual index (hard > to imagine anyone doing it for free). Trouble is, > even if we did that, keeping it up to date would be hard. > > Happy to be proved wrong, of course. I suspect > you are the best person here to advise, David? In the experience of most publishers, the best indexes are usually produced by professional indexers rather than authors. But it definitely isn't cheap--cost would range upwards of ?2 or $4 per page-equivalent. I shouldn't think it would be hard to find someone with experience working with technical documentation. Having an existing index with a good controlled vocabulary of terms would make it easier to do indexing on our own going forward. Is there any budget for paying an indexer? -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 10 10:13:32 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:13:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801100953030.17132@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <FCADA31B-297E-4F15-8477-72304C508C92@virginia.edu> <4785DBB1.8030408@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801100953030.17132@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <4786361C.5010504@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > In the experience of most publishers, the best indexes are usually > produced by professional indexers rather than authors. But it definitely > isn't cheap--cost would range upwards of ?2 or $4 per page-equivalent. > I shouldn't think it would be hard to find someone with experience > working with technical documentation. > agreed. The LaTeX Graphics Companion (2nd edition) went through this last year with a professional indexer. Personally, I was not convinced, and it was a hell of job getting his stuff into the text, but it was doable. Whether it's worth (say) ?2000 I am not sure. > Is there any budget for paying an indexer? > it's not foreseen at the moment, but you could try making the case to the Board. We now reach a point where we have to decide whether and how to print big purple books and sell them. If a professional index would make them sell better, it may be sensible. I sometimes wonder whether we should not sell two volumes separately, the main chapters and the reference material, since the reference material is so much better online. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Fri Jan 11 07:39:05 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 12:39:05 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war In-Reply-To: <47827DBC.2030606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47827DBC.2030606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47876369.4000604@kcl.ac.uk> Lou's Laptop wrote: > I don't there are any cases in the Guidelines where we cite an existing > TEI encoded text. It's kind of a boot strapping problem! When I was doing the cleaning work on the sources cited in examples, I actually had the same doubt that James pointed out, but at the time it seemed stupid to even raise it, given all the other priorities. This had occurred to me also because I think there are examples of markup as such in the source (probably slightly modified...we would need to go back and read the editors' comments). It would be too much to ask where, but, if I am not wrong and my memory doesn't fail me completely, I think it was something about linguistic markup, possibly on current page 225, source [32]. I don't have the book to check straight away though. Arianna > > Lou > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sun Jan 13 08:26:29 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 08:26:29 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] [TEI-L] ptr definition In-Reply-To: <477FD298.8040405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <477DEF6C.50806@hab.de> <477E2EC5.2070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18303.53783.308991.207009@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <477FD298.8040405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18314.4485.1694.54692@emt.wwp.brown.edu> As there seemed to be no objection whatsoever, I've changed cRef= of <ptr> from optional to required (which does not mean that it is required, only that either it or target= is required, as the two are in an <attList org="choice">. > I'd call that corrigible. This is in the Schematron bit, right? I > can't believe anyone really uses that yet anyway..... From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 12:57:28 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:57:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [ tei-Bugs-1852100 ] nameLink element should not have @ref or @key attribute In-Reply-To: <E1JE6kX-0006gI-VB@sc8-sf-web22.sourceforge.net> References: <E1JE6kX-0006gI-VB@sc8-sf-web22.sourceforge.net> Message-ID: <478A5108.40000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> SourceForge.net wrote: > Bugs item #1852100, was opened at 2007-12-17 04:09 > Message generated for change (Comment added) made by louburnard > You can respond by visiting: > https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=644062&aid=1852100&group_id=106328 > > Please note that this message will contain a full copy of the comment thread, > including the initial issue submission, for this request, > not just the latest update. > Category: None > Group: None > Status: Open > Resolution: None > Priority: 5 > Private: No > Submitted By: Conal Tuohy (conal_tuohy) > >> Assigned to: Lou Burnard (louburnard) >> > Summary: nameLink element should not have @ref or @key attribute > > Initial Comment: > It seems to me that att.personal should not be a > member of att.naming, because this allows nameLink to be used with @key > or @ref as an identifier for a person, something which seems highly > improbable to me, to say the least. > > Because nameLink is a member of att.naming (via att.personal), it can > have a @ref or @key to identify the entity being named by the nameLink - > yet nameLink is not in fact a name. > > "<nameLink> contains a connecting phrase or link used within a name but > not regarded as part of it, such as van der or of." > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-nameLink.html > > For example, this is valid, but, I submit, nonsensical: > > <persName> > <forename>Frederick</forename> > <nameLink key="frederick.van-der.tronk">van der</nameLink> > <surname>Tronck</surname> > </persName> > > This glitch can be resolved by removing att.personal from att.naming, > and instead explicitly including in att.naming every member of > model.persNamePart EXCEPT nameLink. > > I also wonder whether persName itself needs @sort? > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-att.personal.html > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> Comment By: Lou Burnard (louburnard) >> > Date: 2008-01-13 17:35 > > Message: > Logged In: YES > user_id=1021146 > Originator: NO > > I agree that it's wrong to have @key and @ref on nameLink. And I think > your suggested fix would work. Do other Council members think this is in > the category of egregious fixable errors? > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > You can respond by visiting: > https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&atid=644062&aid=1852100&group_id=106328 > From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 12:57:57 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 17:57:57 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: [ tei-Bugs-1852101 ] title element should be a member of att.naming] Message-ID: <478A5125.1070202@oucs.ox.ac.uk> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "SourceForge.net" <noreply at sourceforge.net> Subject: [ tei-Bugs-1852101 ] title element should be a member of att.naming Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 09:44:22 -0800 Size: 3915 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080113/de419b8a/attachment.eml From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 13:12:39 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:12:39 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: [ tei-Feature Requests-1721365 ] Precision attribute] Message-ID: <478A5497.8070509@oucs.ox.ac.uk> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "SourceForge.net" <noreply at sourceforge.net> Subject: [ tei-Feature Requests-1721365 ] Precision attribute Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:10:23 -0800 Size: 4640 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080113/cb33d70c/attachment.eml From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 13:12:58 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:12:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: [ tei-Feature Requests-1019594 ] Manuscript encoding] Message-ID: <478A54AA.1090007@oucs.ox.ac.uk> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "SourceForge.net" <noreply at sourceforge.net> Subject: [ tei-Feature Requests-1019594 ] Manuscript encoding Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:11:04 -0800 Size: 7028 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080113/26f791c5/attachment.eml From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 13 13:20:03 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:20:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Source Forge Tracker Items Message-ID: <478A5653.2030500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I've just had a quick look through the bugs and feature requests outstanding on our Sourceforge tracker trying to resolve as many as possible of them (e.g. by correcting erroneous wording in P5, or demonstrating that the bug doesnt actually exist) . A small number were left where I felt that input from Council was needed -- either because the right course of action is not obvious, or because the right course of action would result in a schema change. I've forwarded the SF ticket on each of these to this list just to get your attention, since not many current council members are also registered SF developers, and so I cannot allocate tickets to you. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 17 12:35:36 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 17:35:36 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 6 In-Reply-To: <478C799E.9020905@yahoo.com> References: <478C799E.9020905@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <478F91E8.9080309@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > Also just a few things for this chapter...* > > 6.4 Rhyme > * > After the line, "Non-rhyming lines within such a group may be > represented using a hyphen or an x, as in the following example:", > you have "<!-- example needed -->". > Hmm, yes. We need an example here. Any suggestions? > Footnote 23: > > "The eccentric formatting of this example is a consequence of the fact > that whitespace within the <gi>seg</gi> element is always retained". > The formatting doesn't seem to be eccentric here, and I think is > having whitespace mistakenly added perhaps by XSL? Looking at this footnote again, it seems completely potty to talk about space within the *start-tag* rather than within the element. But the problem is clear enough -- there is a need to retain spaces between words, but not introduce them between syllables and the way this example is laid out doesnt quite achieve the intended effect. I'll try to reword the note more sensibly. From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Jan 17 15:18:42 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 15:18:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] New TEI Roma server needs testing Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801171505330.504@Sewell-iMac.local> All, Thanks to Daniel Pitti, Chris Ruotolo and in particular sysadmin Shayne Brandon at IATH, there is now a full-featured Roma server running on www.tei-c.org: http://www.tei-c.org/Roma/ I've done a quick test of generating schema/documentation/saved customization plus trying the Sanity Checker, and everything worked. I was also able to use it for command-line roma via roma --teiserver=http://www.tei-c.org/Query/ Could those of you who are so inclined do some testing as well, especially of anything you might think of that has been buggy in the past? Assuming that this new installation is indeed robust, we'll need to decide whether to advertise the above URL as the default server address. When we first set out to get Roma running on a Virginia machine the thought was to provide a backup to the Oxford server, or perhaps to share the load via some sort of load-sharing arrangement. Shayne says there's not a simple way to set up www.tei-c.org to hand off Roma requests to two machines, but it can easily configured to redirect to Oxford when needed for server maintenance. Should we just change the default Roma link on the TEI website to the new machine, and figure out a way to advertise the Oxford server as an alternate? Other ideas? David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From noreply at smtpwifi.sfr.fr Thu Jan 17 15:20:54 2008 From: noreply at smtpwifi.sfr.fr (noreply at smtpwifi.sfr.fr) Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:20:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] New TEI Roma server needs testing In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801171505330.504@Sewell-iMac.local> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801171505330.504@Sewell-iMac.local> Message-ID: <478FB8A6.1040207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> that's excellent. I suggest we advertize just the Virginia address, and just use Oxford as an alternate when Shayne needs to. I'll be much happier with this, as it means I can put up test versions at Oxford without feeling so guilty. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 05:19:38 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:19:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] New TEI Roma server needs testing In-Reply-To: <478FB8A6.1040207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801171505330.504@Sewell-iMac.local> <478FB8A6.1040207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47907D3A.9020203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> noreply at smtpwifi.sfr.fr wrote: > that's excellent. I suggest we advertize just the Virginia address, > and just use Oxford as an alternate when Shayne needs to. > > I'll be much happier with this, as it means I can > put up test versions at Oxford without feeling > so guilty. > Something isn't right in Virginia with the XQueries that I happen to know are located under that /Query/ http://www.tei-c.org/Query/tag.xq?name=placeName gives me escaped html in the table cells. I was just going to redirect my bookmarklet to it when I noticed. I mention it in case it is symptomatic of something else. ;-) -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 20 10:31:34 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:31:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 9 - Dictionaries In-Reply-To: <478F2941.4020205@yahoo.com> References: <478F2941.4020205@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47936956.9070009@oucs.ox.ac.uk> [There are a couple of points here on which I find myself unable to answer Brett very convincingly -- input from Council would be welcomed!] Brett Zamir wrote: > I didn't see any mention of glossaries in this chapter. Perhaps a link > to 4.7 Back Matter which mentions <div type="glossary"> would be > helpful for people just looking to encode a glossary and a discussion > of whether the tags in this chapter would be suitable or not for a > glossary. If it would be suitable, maybe the chapter could be renamed > to include "Glossaries" as well. I agree . I've added a few words on uses for this module. I dont think we need rename the chapter though, at this stage... > > The definition for <lbl> (not in the source) seems to have a colon it > shouldn't after "synonyms" in "...approximately, synonyms, etc.") > Fixed. > *9.1 - Dictionary Body and Overall Structure* > > 1) Given the example's use of <div type="dictionary"> for bilingual > dictionaries, is this @type attribute to be added for other > dictionaries? I think clarification would be helpful here. > This example seems both misleading and misplaced. I've moved and clarified it. > 2) Since <sense> is defined (not in the source) as grouping info > related to "definitions, examples, and translation equivalents", while > I see <cit type="example"> used, what about also allowing <eg>? Maybe > an example could also be given of how a translation equivalent would > be encoded (e.g., with @xml:lang)? And are these really "citations"? > * > * I agree that there is a case to be made for permitting <eg> here -- it is permitted, in fact if the appropriate modules are included in the schema. There is clearly some overlap in meaning between <eg> and <quote> in this context, though most dictionaries tend to prefer to use real life quotations rather than made up examples, which is why <cit> is proposed: this element also gives the opportunity of associating a quotation with its source, or some other structure. There is an example of a translation equivalent in the discussion of the word "remoulade" (though not a very clear one I agree) at 9.3.3.1 > *9.2.1 Hierarchical Levels* > > There is this line with no example following it: "The hierarchical > levels of dictionary entries are declared as shown in the following > schema fragment". I've reworded this a bit. > > *9.2.2 Groups and Constituents* > > Are encodings such as the text has of <subc>VP2A</subc> obvious to > dictionary encoders? Otherwise, I think it might be nice to have this > explained (or omitted) since <subc> isn't introduced here (<pos> was > at least one of the examples in the definition). Subsequent examples > also use <subc> without explanation (until quite a bit later). > You may have missed the sentence "For the elements which appear within the <gi>form</gi> and <gi>gramGrp</gi> elements of this and other examples, see below, section <ptr target="#DITPFO"/>, and section<ptr target="#DITPGR"/>. " which precdes this example -- or maybe it needs repeating? > *9.3.1 Information on Written and Spoken Forms* > > 1) The line "The formal declarations for the elements of the > <gi>form</gi> group are these" is not followed by the declarations. Ooops, another formatting error. Thanks! > > 2) Neither are there declarations after the line, "The classes of > morphological elements, and of elements allowed within the > <gi>form</gi> group, are declared thus" Ditto. > > *9.3.2 Grammatical information* > > 1) In this section and in the example in the reference at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-subc.html there > is <subc> with a value of "t ind" (the former has two examples). Is > "ind" to stand for "indicative"? If so, shouldn't that be under <mood>? I don't know what "t ind" means. But I'll ask the person responsible for this particular example to clarify it. > > 2) Should there be a @type on <gram>de</gram> correlating to the > <colloc type="prep"> on the previous example? > yes, it should be type=collocPrep or something similar. have added it. > *9.3.4 Etymological Information > > *Is "<lang>F</lang> fr. <lang>ML</lang>" correct? Yes, regrettably. The "fr." is short for "from" I assume. > > *9.3.5.1 Examples* > > If <quote> can also be used within <cit> within a dictionary entry, > then the definition at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-quote.html > would seem to be inadequate, as such a "quote" is not an external > reference. Why do you say that? I dont understand what you mean by "not an external reference". > (I don't see why a new tag is not used instead of <cit> and <quote>, > by the way, unless the dictionary is actually doing a citation; and in > regular circumstances, if <cit> is supposed to contain an external > quotation, I would think that <q> should be ruled out in favor of > <quote> since we know that a citation is an external reference). > This makes no sense to me, I'm afraid. a <cit> combines a quotation from somewhere else with additional information about where it came from. The quotation might be represented by either a <q> or a <quote>. > *9.3.5.2 Usage Information and Other Labels* > > I think this section ought to have at least one example with <lbl>, > and a comparison of its usage in contrast with that of <usg>. > I agree. I will ask! > *9.3.5.3 Cross References to Other Entries* > > I changed the line > > "In some cases, the form in the definition is inflected, and thus > <gi>ref</gi> must be used, as here" > > to: > > "In some cases, the form in the definition is inflected, and thus > <gi>ref</gi> must be used to refer to the specific forms, as here" > > but was not sure why this was apparently referring to multiple sense > of the word rather than different forms of the word. Sorry if this > should be obvious... I've added the phrase "to indicate more precisely the intended target" > > *9.5.1 Editorial View* > > For the line relating to the editorial view, > > "Apart from the characters or graphics in the source text, nothing > else should appear as content in the document, although it may be > given in attribute values." > > and > > "Removing the tags from such a transcription will leave all and > only the characters of the source text, in their original sequence", > > ...won't there be some exceptions with elements such as <note> (when > used for transcriber commentary purposes)? I understand this is > probably more about transcribing the original details, but maybe > mention should be made of elements usable for transcriber commentary > and information? > Yes. This is one of the sections of this chapter that makes me feel particularly uneasy. It requires more attention than we can currently provide however to sort this out, and it is not actually wrong, so I am not disposed to make any changes for this release! From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 20 11:59:34 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 16:59:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 10 - Manuscript Description In-Reply-To: <4790D381.9000401@yahoo.com> References: <4790D381.9000401@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47937DF6.7090902@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > Thanks for the replies on the other chapters...here's chapter 10...* > > 10.3.3 Watermarks and Stamps* > > I made a change in the attached patch file in order to make it clear > that <support> was a newly introduced element. > I'm assuming you mean that the <support> element hasn't been discussed at this point: this does happen, and our practice is usually to provide a reference forward to explain it; this I have now done. > *10.4 The Manuscript Identifier* > > For... > > "...additional or more precise information on the physical location of > the manuscript can be given within the <gi>adminInfo</gi> element, > discussed in section <ptr target="#msadad"/> below." > > and > > "It might, however, be preferable to include such information within > the <gi>adminInfo</gi> element discussed in section <ptr > target="#msadad"/> below." > > Section 10.7.5.1 which these refer to, does not specifically mention > the <adminInfo> element. (I think it ought to be added there too, even > if you only correct these references.) > This section is actually wrong (or at least disagrees with the content model) so thanks for picking that up. I have corrected it to match the content model. > *10.6.3 Rubrics, Incipts, Explicits, and Other Quotations from the Text* > > "It is customary in a manuscript description to record the opening and > closing words of a text as well as any headings or colophons it might > have, and the specialised elements <gi>rubric</gi>, <gi>incipit</gi>, > <gi>explicit</gi>, <gi>finalRubric</gi>, and <gi>colophon</gi> are > available within <gi>msItem</gi> for doing so, *along with the more > general <gi>quote</gi>*, for recording other bits of the text not > covered by these elements." > > Should the bolded phrase refer instead to <q> which is even more > general than <quote> (and which isn't necessarily external, as my > understanding of the other items is that they also are not external)? <quote> is more general than <incipit> etc. I am not sure what you mean by "external" here, but the point is that all of these elements are used to "quote" bits from other parts of the ms. primarily. <q> is not allowed by the current content model (after some degree of blood letting on the council list) > *10.6.6 Languages and Writing Systems* > > Not having been familiar with the 3-letter codes, I checked up and > found the ISO 639.2 list at the Library of Congress: > http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php . It looks, > however, from this list that the 3 examples using @mainLang should be > "chu" for Old Church Slavonic instead of "OCS". Likewise does Greek > (Ancient presumably) look like it has changed. I made these changes in > the patch, but wanted to explain my reasoning. I also changed to lower > case (except for the first letter of the script) since this seems to > be the convention, as far as I can tell. > thanks, this looks better > *10.7 Physical Description* > > This sentence seems to have some repetition, but I can't figure out > how its supposed to read: "These include aspects of the form, support, > extent, and quire structure of the manuscript object and of the way in > which the text is laid out on the page (<ptr target="#msph1"/>); the > styles of writing, such as the way it is laid out on the page, the > styles of writing, decorative features, any musical notation employed > and any annotations or marginalia (<ptr target="#msph2"/>); and > discussion of its binding, seals, and any accompanying material (<ptr > target="#msph3"/>)." > Yes, it's quite a mouthful as a sentence. I have recast it as a list. > *10.7.2.4 Additions and Marginalia* > > It would seem that it might be helpful to have a means of describing > the relative location of marginalia (e.g., which margin, for example). > Is there some way to do this at present? Not at present: the <marginalia> element simply contains prose. > > *10.7.3.3 Accompanying Material* > > Does the <accMat> example with a <quote> inside actually referring to > an "agency external to the text". And what if the note was from the > author him/herself? Would it still be an agency external to the text? > Yes. The "text" here is the ms description itself, so anything quoted from somewhere else (in this case the scrap of paper being described) is a <quote> > take care, > Brett I try to :-) Lou From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 10:53:11 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 15:53:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] New TEI Roma server needs testing In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801181006270.23043@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801171505330.504@Sewell-iMac.local> <478FB8A6.1040207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47907D3A.9020203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801181006270.23043@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <4790CB67.3010706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > Part of the problem on the Virginia server is that > > http://www.tei-c.org/stylesheet/teic.css > > is not there. As for "<span>" being passed as literal text--Sebastian, > any clue what's going on there? It seems strange that it would be passed as literal text if just the CSS was missing. I thought that whatever the problem was I should mention it in case it had some knock-on effect somewhere else we just haven't noticed yet. ;-) > Is http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/tag.xq part of the "official" > Guidelines/Roma web directory? I confess I'm not entirely clear why > there's a need to maintain a bookmarklet to the P5 Database as the > content duplicates that of the reference section in the P5 Guidelines. During the preparation for P5, I've always assumed that the database was more up-to-date than the stable release, but that might not actually be the case. The bookmarklet was only for my convenience (I also use one for the ref.xq to see the underlying XML quickly, I'm not sure if roma uses that internal or does it itself.) > In other words, is this something it's crucial to fix on the UVA server? Probably not, especially not if the org.uk site will stay there. I guess it is more a case of 'should this be working?' rather than 'this should be working!'. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 19 05:42:49 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 10:42:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] New TEI Roma server needs testing In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801181006270.23043@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801171505330.504@Sewell-iMac.local> <478FB8A6.1040207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47907D3A.9020203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801181006270.23043@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <4791D429.9040801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > Part of the problem on the Virginia server is that > > http://www.tei-c.org/stylesheet/teic.css > I am working on this area anyway for another purpose, so this is opportune > is not there. As for "<span>" being passed as literal text--Sebastian, > any clue what's going on there? > not yet > Is http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/tag.xq part of the "official" > Guidelines/Roma web directory? yes, FWIW > I confess I'm not entirely clear why > there's a need to maintain a bookmarklet to the P5 Database as the > content duplicates that of the reference section in the P5 Guidelines. > You are right; it was there originally when Roma moved faster than the Guidelines. But I will simplify Roma to remove this facility, and instead simply link to the online Guidelines (which could also be a local copy, of course, for us on eg a Live CD) I aim to make a new Roma release at the end of the month with a new TEI P5 1.0.1. I spent the day yesterday with the French TEI translation group, and we identified a number of places where the I18N/L10N is not right yet, so I'd like to get those fixed. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 18 11:35:49 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:35:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Re: Chapter 8 - Transcriptions of Speech] Message-ID: <4790D565.1030907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> The indefatigable Mr Zamir continues to work through P5, occasionally raising some interesting questions for Council's consideration.... -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Lou's Laptop" <lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Chapter 8 - Transcriptions of Speech Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 16:33:15 +0000 Size: 8277 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080118/5de68e32/attachment.eml From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Jan 18 10:25:36 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 10:25:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] New TEI Roma server needs testing In-Reply-To: <47907D3A.9020203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801171505330.504@Sewell-iMac.local> <478FB8A6.1040207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47907D3A.9020203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801181006270.23043@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Part of the problem on the Virginia server is that http://www.tei-c.org/stylesheet/teic.css is not there. As for "<span>" being passed as literal text--Sebastian, any clue what's going on there? Is http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/tag.xq part of the "official" Guidelines/Roma web directory? I confess I'm not entirely clear why there's a need to maintain a bookmarklet to the P5 Database as the content duplicates that of the reference section in the P5 Guidelines. In other words, is this something it's crucial to fix on the UVA server? David On Fri, 18 Jan 2008, James Cummings wrote: > noreply at smtpwifi.sfr.fr wrote: > > that's excellent. I suggest we advertize just the Virginia address, > > and just use Oxford as an alternate when Shayne needs to. > > > > I'll be much happier with this, as it means I can > > put up test versions at Oxford without feeling > > so guilty. > > > > Something isn't right in Virginia with the XQueries that I happen to know are > located under that /Query/ > > http://www.tei-c.org/Query/tag.xq?name=placeName gives me escaped html in the > table cells. > > I was just going to redirect my bookmarklet to it when I noticed. > > I mention it in case it is symptomatic of something else. ;-) > > -James > > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Jan 21 11:59:29 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:59:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] New TEI Roma server needs testing In-Reply-To: <4791D429.9040801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801171505330.504@Sewell-iMac.local> <478FB8A6.1040207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47907D3A.9020203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801181006270.23043@lister.ei.virginia.edu> <4791D429.9040801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801211131400.28241@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Given that links to http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/tag.xq aren't given from the main Roma web pages, should we go ahead and advertise the new server, and maybe wait until after the new Roma release is out to install it on the Virginia server and revisit whether and why incorrect HTML is being returned for that script? I noticed one other small problem with the Virginia installation. If you go to the "Customize" tab, the languages under "Language" display as gibberish unless one's browser is set to use UTF-8 encoding. This is because the server is issuing a response header of Content-Type: text/html and there is no <meta> tag in the HTML saying to use UTF-8, so the default assumption is Latin-1. Sebastian, what do you think is the best fix--add the apropriate <meta/> tag to the generated HTML, or have us tweak the server config to add charset=UTF-8 to the server Content-Type header as you're doing at Oxford? David On Sat, 19 Jan 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > David Sewell wrote: > > Part of the problem on the Virginia server is that > > > > http://www.tei-c.org/stylesheet/teic.css > > > I am working on this area anyway > for another purpose, so this is opportune > > is not there. As for "<span>" being passed as literal text--Sebastian, > > any clue what's going on there? > > > not yet > > Is http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/tag.xq part of the "official" > > Guidelines/Roma web directory? > yes, FWIW > > I confess I'm not entirely clear why > > there's a need to maintain a bookmarklet to the P5 Database as the > > content duplicates that of the reference section in the P5 Guidelines. > > > You are right; it was there originally when Roma moved > faster than the Guidelines. But I will simplify Roma to > remove this facility, and instead simply link to the online > Guidelines (which could also be a local copy, of course, > for us on eg a Live CD) > > I aim to make a new Roma release at the end of the month > with a new TEI P5 1.0.1. I spent the day yesterday with > the French TEI translation group, and we identified > a number of places where the I18N/L10N is not > right yet, so I'd like to get those fixed. > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Jan 21 12:11:28 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 12:11:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Roma sanity checker and customization templates Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801211159320.28241@lister.ei.virginia.edu> While doing some more testing on the new Roma server, I noticed that most (if not all) of the supplied customization templates produce various warnings when one clicks on the "Sanity Checker" button. For example, TEI Lite produces four Warnings and three indications of nonexistent elements. E.g. Warning: _rendition_ is not reachable from root which I assume has to do with the fact that @rendition is still in att.global in the TEI Lite template, but <tagsDecl> is deleted so that there's no place to put a <rendition> element for @rendition to point to. So this raises a couple of questions about the integration of Sanity Checker into Roma: * Do we need to tweak the custom templates so they don't produce Sanity Checker warnings? * If not, where and how should we provide some explanation for end users to help them distinguish between serious warnings and informational warnings that can be ignored in practice? With the status quo, a user might think we're supplying a bunch of buggy templates. Can we get Ioan or one of his co-developers to supply us with a big of explanatory language on the meanings of the diagnostics produced by the Sanity Checker? -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 21 12:16:12 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 17:16:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Roma sanity checker and customization templates In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801211159320.28241@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801211159320.28241@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <4794D35C.1090108@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > Warning: _rendition_ is not reachable from root > > which I assume has to do with the fact that @rendition is still in > att.global in the TEI Lite template, but <tagsDecl> is deleted so that > there's no place to put a <rendition> element for @rendition to point > to. > good point > So this raises a couple of questions about the integration of Sanity > Checker into Roma: > > * Do we need to tweak the custom templates so they don't produce > Sanity Checker warnings? > yes, probably. > * If not, where and how should we provide some explanation for end users > to help them distinguish between serious warnings and informational > warnings that can be ignored in practice? > > With the status quo, a user might think we're supplying a bunch of buggy > templates. Can we get Ioan or one of his co-developers to supply us with > a big of explanatory language on the meanings of the diagnostics > produced by the Sanity Checker? > that means Veronika or me, in practice. Ioan was just on loan. Its very true, the Sanity Checker is a little opaque. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 21 13:23:59 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:23:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Roma sanity checker and customization templates In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801211159320.28241@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801211159320.28241@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <4794E33F.8030103@oucs.ox.ac.uk> by the way, one of my tasks for this evening is to get a new version of everything (P5, Roma, Stylesheets) working on tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk. You can then try that out for a few weeks and see if I mended any of the broken bits. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 21 16:50:14 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:50:14 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] new roma, etc Message-ID: <47951396.2020306@oucs.ox.ac.uk> http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Roma/ has a revised Roma, correcting some errors which Peter B reported, and removing the use of tag.xq which was bothering David S. It uses the latest stylesheets and P5 source. I'd be glad to hear of any problems with this lot; there are a few small issues with I18N which I am trying to sort now, but otherwise I don't intend to fix much else. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 22 16:03:09 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 21:03:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] New TEI Roma server needs testing In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801211131400.28241@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801171505330.504@Sewell-iMac.local> <478FB8A6.1040207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47907D3A.9020203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801181006270.23043@lister.ei.virginia.edu> <4791D429.9040801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801211131400.28241@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <47965A0D.4090506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > I noticed one other small problem with the Virginia installation. If you > go to the "Customize" tab, the languages under "Language" display as > gibberish unless one's browser is set to use UTF-8 encoding. This is > because the server is issuing a response header of > > Content-Type: text/html > > and there is no <meta> tag in the HTML saying to use UTF-8, so the > default assumption is Latin-1. Sebastian, what do you think is the best > fix--add the apropriate <meta/> tag to the generated HTML, or have us > tweak the server config to add charset=UTF-8 to the server Content-Type > header as you're doing at Oxford? > I will add the <meta> tag now. so that should be fixed at next release. You may need the latter as well... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Jan 23 14:13:22 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:13:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] New TEI Roma server needs testing In-Reply-To: <47965A0D.4090506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801171505330.504@Sewell-iMac.local> <478FB8A6.1040207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47907D3A.9020203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801181006270.23043@lister.ei.virginia.edu> <4791D429.9040801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801211131400.28241@lister.ei.virginia.edu> <47965A0D.4090506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801231412000.13219@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Good. I think that once the UTF-8 display issue is fixed on the Virginia server, it can be advertised as the official Roma server. I'll post a note to TEI-L once that happens. David On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > David Sewell wrote: > > I noticed one other small problem with the Virginia installation. If you > > go to the "Customize" tab, the languages under "Language" display as > > gibberish unless one's browser is set to use UTF-8 encoding. This is > > because the server is issuing a response header of > > > > Content-Type: text/html > > > > and there is no <meta> tag in the HTML saying to use UTF-8, so the > > default assumption is Latin-1. Sebastian, what do you think is the best > > fix--add the apropriate <meta/> tag to the generated HTML, or have us > > tweak the server config to add charset=UTF-8 to the server Content-Type > > header as you're doing at Oxford? > > > I will add the <meta> tag now. so that should be fixed > at next release. You may need the latter as well... > > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Jan 24 12:23:45 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:23:45 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] New Council Chair Message-ID: <1201195425.6565.29.camel@localhost> Hi all, I'm very pleased to announce that the board has appointed Laurent Romary to the position of Council Chair. Most of you know him, I am sure, through his long involvement with the TEI and in the Digital Humanities more generally. A brief biography can be found here: http://www.inria.fr/personnel/Laurent.Romary.en.html The search for the new council chair has delayed the beginning of the new council's activities somewhat this year. But I'm sure we'll be active enough in the near future now that Laurent is in place. We will be adding Laurent to the council (and this list) as a board appointee in the very near future (as fast as it can be done, in fact). Laurent will also be appointed to the Board under the new bylaws. Looking forward to a great and experimental year... -dan -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 13:28:21 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 18:28:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] New Council Chair In-Reply-To: <1201195425.6565.29.camel@localhost> References: <1201195425.6565.29.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4798D8C5.6030901@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Daniel O'Donnell wrote: > We will be adding Laurent to the council (and this list) as a board > appointee in the very near future (as fast as it can be done, in fact). > Since I currently occupy the position as Board appointee on the Council, this means I shall be leaving you shortly; so I'll take the chance to say farewell now, and wish everyone well! I am wondering about the process of making new releases. As you know, I created for myself the job of "release manager", making sure everything worked, creating all the appropriate packages and getting it all uploaded to the right place. Someone may like to shadow me when I make the 5.0.1 release, so that we spread the wisdom? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 14:37:01 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 19:37:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 10 - Manuscript Description In-Reply-To: <47937DF6.7090902@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4790D381.9000401@yahoo.com> <47937DF6.7090902@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4798E8DD.8000809@kcl.ac.uk> Hi, since I saw this email about the MS chapter, I thought to report those mistakes/comments that I had noted and hadn't found time to report yet (sorry): - example: <msItem defective="true"> <locus>ff. 1r-24v</locus> <title type="uniform">?grip af Noregs konunga s?gum regi oc hann seti ho sc heim sem ?io hon hever oc ?a buit hesta .ij. annan vi? f? en honom annan til rei?ar Surely all those should be instead. - "Although no specific notation is defined here, provision is made for the tagging of such with the standard TEI element. Here are some examples of different ways of treating collation:" I think the fact that is available only if the figures module is used should be made explicit here. - "The locus element discussed in 10.3.5 References to Locations within a Manuscript can then indicate which foliation scheme is being cited by means of its @source attribute, which points to this identifier:" The attribute is @scheme and not @source. - "for example, at the point in the transcript where the second hand listed above starts (i.e. at folio 72v:4), we might insert handShift new="#Eirsp-2"/." It would be nice to have an example here. Arianna (happy we have got a chair!) Lou's Laptop wrote: >> *10.7.2.4 Additions and Marginalia* >> >> It would seem that it might be helpful to have a means of describing >> the relative location of marginalia (e.g., which margin, for example). >> Is there some way to do this at present? > Not at present: the element simply contains prose. I think you mean here....I can see a case for adding it as a member of att.placement myself. > >> *10.7.3.3 Accompanying Material* >> >> Does the example with a inside actually referring to >> an "agency external to the text". And what if the note was from the >> author him/herself? Would it still be an agency external to the text? >> > Yes. The "text" here is the ms description itself, so anything quoted > from somewhere else (in this case the scrap of paper being described) is > a > >> take care, >> Brett > > I try to :-) > > Lou > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 24 16:34:40 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:34:40 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] 11 - Representation of Primary Sources In-Reply-To: <4797F204.2050300@yahoo.com> References: <4797F204.2050300@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47990470.5060806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > > > *11.1 Digital Facsimiles* > > 1) For the line, "If one of those images actually represents an area > larger than the page (for example to include a binding or the surface > of a desk on which the page rests), then it might be enclosed by a > zone with coordinates smaller or *larger *than those of the parent > surface." > > How could the zone be larger than the parent surface if the parent > surface, especially in such a case where the parent surface included > as much as the binding/surface of the desk? > Well, that is the point of the example. The written surface may be smaller than the zone; and there may be an image of the zone (rather than one of the surface). > 2) The line doesn't seem to refer to anything in > the sample before it, even though it is the @facs attribute which is > under discussion. > Well spotted! there should have been an xml:id on the in question (now added) > *11.3.5 Substitutions* > > 1) I don't understand the last part of this sentence: "The numbers > assigned by the seq attribute may be used to identify the > order in which the various additions and deletions are believed by the > encoder to have been carried out, and thus provide a simple method of > supporting the kind of genetic textual criticism > typified by (for example) Hans Walter Gabler's work on the > reconstruction *of the overlay levels of *implicit in the > manuscripts of James Joyce's Ulysses." > Sorry, one "of" too many. now removed. > 2) I'm also unclear as to whether the sequence of additions and > deletions is supposed to represent the document order of the added and > deleted items, or just the apparent order the author made the changes. > It is very definitely the latter. the document order is not significant. > *11.3.6 Cancellation of Deletions and Other Markings* > > Is there a way to let "stet" show up within the if the > encoder wanted this word printed out or should that just be detected > by @type="marginalStetNote"? > A job for a stylesheet I think... > *11.3.7 Text Omitted from or Supplied in the Transcription* > > 1) Definition of (not in the source), maybe the phrase "because > the material is illegible or inaudible" could be changed to read > "because the material is illegible, obscured, or inaudible" (for > signed or visual texts). > OK: I added "invisible". > 2) If, per the definition (not in the source), 's @reason could > have the value "cancelled and illegible", this would seem to me to > contradict its definition as data.word which is separated by > whitespace per > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-gap.html . > Yes. It's a stupid idea anyway since if it's illegible you cannot say whether or not it's cancelled. > 3) Maybe the definition for @hand (not in source) might expand > "identifiable hand" to "identifiable or distinct hand", since > "identifiable" may give the impression that the hand must be known. Good point. I have substituted "distinct" for "identifiable" > > *11.4.1 Document Hands* > > Would there be any cases where an element with a @hand attribute from > att.textCritical encloses a handShift? If so, would a @new on the > latter override the former for the rest of the element? Hmm. That's almost certainly something no-one has envisaged before, but I think your interpretation would be the correct one. > > *11.5.1 Damage, Illegibility, and Supplied Text* > > 1) For the definition of @hand (not in the source), would the line > beginning, "In the case of damage (deliberate defacement, etc.)" be > enhanced with "In the case of damage (deliberate defacement, > *censorship, *etc.)"? Um, I don't think so: censorship can after all be invisible. > > 2) I think that the line "If it is desired to supply more information > about the kind of damage, it is also possible to nest an > unclear element within the damage element" follows > an example with " could be more clear as a > transition to the line previous if it were worded something like this: > > It is also possible to nest an unclear element within the > damage element" follows an example with > , assuming it is desired to supply more > information about the kind of damage. > Not sure that I am understanding this comment. The text reads quite clearly to me. From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Fri Jan 25 05:19:25 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:19:25 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: [Fwd: Fwd: New Council Chair]] Message-ID: <4799B7AD.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> Is Daniel Pitti supposed to do this? Arianna -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Fwd: New Council Chair Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:32:35 +0100 From: Laurent Romary To: Lou Burnard , Sebastian Rahtz References: Hallo, I was subscribed under the wrong address on the lists. Could one of you forward this to the Council? Cheers, Laurent D?but du message r?exp?di? : > *De : *tei-council-owner at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > *Date : *25 janvier 2008 09:10:55 HNEC > *? : *laurent.romary at loria.fr > *Objet : **R?p : New Council Chair* > > You are not allowed to post to this mailing list, and your message has > been automatically rejected. If you think that your messages are > being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at > tei-council-owner at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > . > > > *De : *Laurent Romary > > *Date : *25 janvier 2008 09:08:47 HNEC > *? : *daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca > *Cc : *tei-council > > *Objet : **R?p : New Council Chair* > > > Dear all, > Despite the few weeks' break in my attending the list, I am very happy > to be back an contribute to a period of change in the TEI council > scope and activities. I want first to address a big thank to all of > you who have kept the momentum while the chair was designated and in > particular to Lou and Syd as editors who have ensured that the > guidelines would keep being constantly improved as more and more > people seem to get in touch with P5. Thanks also to Sebastian for > keeping the keys of the jewels and making everything concrete through > a constant release process. And finally thanks to Dan and Christian > for managing the transitional period. > Apropos transition, I am going to think of a way to ensure that, in > the next few months, at least until our next face to face meting, we > manage to avoid creating too much of a gap between past and future and > I will discuss with all of you on the best way to do so. > BTW: could someone point to me the plans for the next meeting? Since I > was not in the loop of even the council chair selection, I have not > taken care of checking anything on my agenda. > A final word, before I start gathering ideas for our future > discussions, what the TEI community has achieved with P5 is a huge > amount of work, but also something far ahead to any other similar > endeavor. The TEI architecture is something really original which > people outside the TEI aficionados also appreciate. The richness of > the TEI ontology is recognized by many scholarly groups. What I mean > is that we should work with enthusiasm in disseminating and improving > this constantly. > I can only wish you all a lot of pleasure in doing so! > Laurent > > > Le 24 janv. 08 ? 18:23, Daniel O'Donnell a ?crit : > >> Hi all, >> >> I'm very pleased to announce that the board has appointed Laurent Romary >> to the position of Council Chair. Most of you know him, I am sure, >> through his long involvement with the TEI and in the Digital Humanities >> more generally. A brief biography can be found here: >> http://www.inria.fr/personnel/Laurent.Romary.en.html >> >> The search for the new council chair has delayed the beginning of the >> new council's activities somewhat this year. But I'm sure we'll be >> active enough in the near future now that Laurent is in place. >> >> We will be adding Laurent to the council (and this list) as a board >> appointee in the very near future (as fast as it can be done, in fact). >> Laurent will also be appointed to the Board under the new bylaws. >> >> Looking forward to a great and experimental year... >> >> -dan >> >> -- >> Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD >> Department Chair and Associate Professor of English >> Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ >> Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ >> >> Department of English >> University of Lethbridge >> Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 >> Vox +1 403 329-2377 >> Fax +1 403 382-7191 >> Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca >> WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ >> > > > -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Fri Jan 25 05:29:50 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 10:29:50 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] from Laurent Message-ID: <4799BA1E.2010107@kcl.ac.uk> In the meantime, here is the message (buried in my previous email) from the new chair: =================== Dear all, Despite the few weeks' break in my attending the list, I am very happy to be back an contribute to a period of change in the TEI council scope and activities. I want first to address a big thank to all of you who have kept the momentum while the chair was designated and in particular to Lou and Syd as editors who have ensured that the guidelines would keep being constantly improved as more and more people seem to get in touch with P5. Thanks also to Sebastian for keeping the keys of the jewels and making everything concrete through a constant release process. And finally thanks to Dan and Christian for managing the transitional period. Apropos transition, I am going to think of a way to ensure that, in the next few months, at least until our next face to face meting, we manage to avoid creating too much of a gap between past and future and I will discuss with all of you on the best way to do so. BTW: could someone point to me the plans for the next meeting? Since I was not in the loop of even the council chair selection, I have not taken care of checking anything on my agenda. A final word, before I start gathering ideas for our future discussions, what the TEI community has achieved with P5 is a huge amount of work, but also something far ahead to any other similar endeavor. The TEI architecture is something really original which people outside the TEI aficionados also appreciate. The richness of the TEI ontology is recognized by many scholarly groups. What I mean is that we should work with enthusiasm in disseminating and improving this constantly. I can only wish you all a lot of pleasure in doing so! Laurent =========================== -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Jan 25 09:31:52 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:31:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: [Fwd: Fwd: New Council Chair]] In-Reply-To: <4799B7AD.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> References: <4799B7AD.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: He is the list owner; I forwarded the note to him just now. On Fri, 25 Jan 2008, Arianna Ciula wrote: > Is Daniel Pitti supposed to do this? > > Arianna > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Fwd: New Council Chair > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:32:35 +0100 > From: Laurent Romary > To: Lou Burnard , Sebastian Rahtz > > References: > > > > > Hallo, > I was subscribed under the wrong address on the lists. Could one of you > forward this to the Council? > Cheers, > Laurent > > D?but du message r?exp?di? : > > > *De : *tei-council-owner at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > > > *Date : *25 janvier 2008 09:10:55 HNEC > > *? : *laurent.romary at loria.fr > > *Objet : **R?p : New Council Chair* > > > > You are not allowed to post to this mailing list, and your message has > > been automatically rejected. If you think that your messages are > > being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at > > tei-council-owner at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > . > > > > > > *De : *Laurent Romary > > > > *Date : *25 janvier 2008 09:08:47 HNEC > > *? : *daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca > > *Cc : *tei-council > > > > *Objet : **R?p : New Council Chair* > > > > > > Dear all, > > Despite the few weeks' break in my attending the list, I am very happy > > to be back an contribute to a period of change in the TEI council > > scope and activities. I want first to address a big thank to all of > > you who have kept the momentum while the chair was designated and in > > particular to Lou and Syd as editors who have ensured that the > > guidelines would keep being constantly improved as more and more > > people seem to get in touch with P5. Thanks also to Sebastian for > > keeping the keys of the jewels and making everything concrete through > > a constant release process. And finally thanks to Dan and Christian > > for managing the transitional period. > > Apropos transition, I am going to think of a way to ensure that, in > > the next few months, at least until our next face to face meting, we > > manage to avoid creating too much of a gap between past and future and > > I will discuss with all of you on the best way to do so. > > BTW: could someone point to me the plans for the next meeting? Since I > > was not in the loop of even the council chair selection, I have not > > taken care of checking anything on my agenda. > > A final word, before I start gathering ideas for our future > > discussions, what the TEI community has achieved with P5 is a huge > > amount of work, but also something far ahead to any other similar > > endeavor. The TEI architecture is something really original which > > people outside the TEI aficionados also appreciate. The richness of > > the TEI ontology is recognized by many scholarly groups. What I mean > > is that we should work with enthusiasm in disseminating and improving > > this constantly. > > I can only wish you all a lot of pleasure in doing so! > > Laurent > > > > > > Le 24 janv. 08 ? 18:23, Daniel O'Donnell a ?crit : > > > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I'm very pleased to announce that the board has appointed Laurent Romary > >> to the position of Council Chair. Most of you know him, I am sure, > >> through his long involvement with the TEI and in the Digital Humanities > >> more generally. A brief biography can be found here: > >> http://www.inria.fr/personnel/Laurent.Romary.en.html > >> > >> The search for the new council chair has delayed the beginning of the > >> new council's activities somewhat this year. But I'm sure we'll be > >> active enough in the near future now that Laurent is in place. > >> > >> We will be adding Laurent to the council (and this list) as a board > >> appointee in the very near future (as fast as it can be done, in fact). > >> Laurent will also be appointed to the Board under the new bylaws. > >> > >> Looking forward to a great and experimental year... > >> > >> -dan > >> > >> -- > >> Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD > >> Department Chair and Associate Professor of English > >> Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ > >> Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ > >> > >> Department of English > >> University of Lethbridge > >> Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 > >> Vox +1 403 329-2377 > >> Fax +1 403 382-7191 > >> Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca > >> WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ > >> > > > > > > > > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Jan 25 09:38:46 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:38:46 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: [Fwd: Fwd: New Council Chair]] In-Reply-To: References: <4799B7AD.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1622F5BB-2844-47D1-B9EC-E6C0E3078ED5@loria.fr> It should be solved by now. Thanks! Laurent Le 25 janv. 08 ? 15:31, David Sewell a ?crit : > He is the list owner; I forwarded the note to him just now. > > On Fri, 25 Jan 2008, Arianna Ciula wrote: > >> Is Daniel Pitti supposed to do this? >> >> Arianna >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Fwd: New Council Chair >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 09:32:35 +0100 >> From: Laurent Romary >> To: Lou Burnard , Sebastian Rahtz >> >> References: >> >> >> >> >> Hallo, >> I was subscribed under the wrong address on the lists. Could one >> of you >> forward this to the Council? >> Cheers, >> Laurent >> >> D?but du message r?exp?di? : >> >>> *De : *tei-council-owner at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> >>> *Date : *25 janvier 2008 09:10:55 HNEC >>> *? : *laurent.romary at loria.fr >>> *Objet : **R?p : New Council Chair* >>> >>> You are not allowed to post to this mailing list, and your >>> message has >>> been automatically rejected. If you think that your messages are >>> being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at >>> tei-council-owner at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> . >>> >>> >>> *De : *Laurent Romary >> > >>> *Date : *25 janvier 2008 09:08:47 HNEC >>> *? : *daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca >>> *Cc : *tei-council >> > >>> *Objet : **R?p : New Council Chair* >>> >>> >>> Dear all, >>> Despite the few weeks' break in my attending the list, I am very >>> happy >>> to be back an contribute to a period of change in the TEI council >>> scope and activities. I want first to address a big thank to all of >>> you who have kept the momentum while the chair was designated and in >>> particular to Lou and Syd as editors who have ensured that the >>> guidelines would keep being constantly improved as more and more >>> people seem to get in touch with P5. Thanks also to Sebastian for >>> keeping the keys of the jewels and making everything concrete >>> through >>> a constant release process. And finally thanks to Dan and Christian >>> for managing the transitional period. >>> Apropos transition, I am going to think of a way to ensure that, in >>> the next few months, at least until our next face to face meting, we >>> manage to avoid creating too much of a gap between past and >>> future and >>> I will discuss with all of you on the best way to do so. >>> BTW: could someone point to me the plans for the next meeting? >>> Since I >>> was not in the loop of even the council chair selection, I have not >>> taken care of checking anything on my agenda. >>> A final word, before I start gathering ideas for our future >>> discussions, what the TEI community has achieved with P5 is a huge >>> amount of work, but also something far ahead to any other similar >>> endeavor. The TEI architecture is something really original which >>> people outside the TEI aficionados also appreciate. The richness of >>> the TEI ontology is recognized by many scholarly groups. What I mean >>> is that we should work with enthusiasm in disseminating and >>> improving >>> this constantly. >>> I can only wish you all a lot of pleasure in doing so! >>> Laurent >>> >>> >>> Le 24 janv. 08 ? 18:23, Daniel O'Donnell a ?crit : >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm very pleased to announce that the board has appointed >>>> Laurent Romary >>>> to the position of Council Chair. Most of you know him, I am sure, >>>> through his long involvement with the TEI and in the Digital >>>> Humanities >>>> more generally. A brief biography can be found here: >>>> http://www.inria.fr/personnel/Laurent.Romary.en.html >>>> >>>> The search for the new council chair has delayed the beginning >>>> of the >>>> new council's activities somewhat this year. But I'm sure we'll be >>>> active enough in the near future now that Laurent is in place. >>>> >>>> We will be adding Laurent to the council (and this list) as a board >>>> appointee in the very near future (as fast as it can be done, in >>>> fact). >>>> Laurent will also be appointed to the Board under the new bylaws. >>>> >>>> Looking forward to a great and experimental year... >>>> >>>> -dan >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD >>>> Department Chair and Associate Professor of English >>>> Director, Digital Medievalist Project http:// >>>> www.digitalmedievalist.org/ >>>> Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ >>>> >>>> Department of English >>>> University of Lethbridge >>>> Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 >>>> Vox +1 403 329-2377 >>>> Fax +1 403 382-7191 >>>> Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca >>>> WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 25 11:13:32 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:13:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] (no subject) Message-ID: <479A0AAC.2070903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 26 18:20:41 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 23:20:41 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 12 - Critical Apparatus In-Reply-To: <47983748.9070408@yahoo.com> References: <47983748.9070408@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <479BC049.1050505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > *General Question: > * > Is there any TEI-specific means of providing localizations of a text > without duplication of tags (and thus chances of markup errors) yet > also without resorting to entities? Not really, if I understqnd the question properly. > Could be used for this? If there is such a mechanism, I think it > might be helpful to make mention of it here since the topic of > alternate translations has been raised (albeit in the context of > witnesses to a text). And would there be a way to indicate a hierarchy > of base texts, e.g., that one text was translated from Arabic into > English, and another translation (into say Spanish) was based off of > the English version, including all of the versions together (or > linking them by some means)? How about a commentary on a text? > You could use this module to indicate alternate translations if they formed part of a textual tradition, I suppose. Alignment of translations or addition of commentary is not really the job of this module though -- there are other, simpler, methods of doing that, discussed in the chaptrer on segmentation and alignment. > *Introductory section: > * > () has no item in the same line before it... > Ooops. Now added! > *12.1.2 Readings* > > 1) In the following, I don't understand what "abbreviation for per" > means. If it is about the dropping of those letters, how would this be > a "loss of the abbreviation" (and what about 'x')? > I'm afraid I dont understand your comment. The "abbreviation for per" is a brevigraph commonly used in medieval mss, and the apparatrus is suggetsing that the strange reading "eryment" comes about as a result of thius brevigraph being dropped. > "In the following apparatus fragment, the reading > Eryment is tagged as sequential to (derived > from) the reading Experiment, and the cause is > given as loss of the *abbreviation for per*. > > *Experiment* > *Eryment* > > > 2) For the line "If a manuscript is written in several hands, and it > is desired to report which hand wrote a particular reading, the > hand attribute should be used.", is there also a means > within the header to indicate the default sequence? (e.g. that the > first reading within an or always belonged to hand "m1") > No. The order of readings within an or is never significant. > *12.1.3 Indicating Subvariation in Apparatus Entries > * > The suggestion of seems to contradict the > data.enumerated type which requires an XML name (which doesn't allow > whitespace). > Thanks: this is an error, now fixed. > *12.1.4.1 Witness Detail Information* > > Regarding the line, "Like note, witDetail can be > included in the text at the point of attachment, or can point to the > reading(s) being annotated with its target attribute.", can > also occur within the header? As a member of model.noteLike, it is globally available, so yes. Though I am not sure it would be a good idea to use it there, > > *12.1.4.3 The Witness List* > > What do prosecutions have to do with TEI? ;) > ha ha > 1) This commented-out line is printed out in the text: > > > Mysterious. > 2) I'm not too clear on this line: "As the last example shows, the > *witness description here may complement the short characterisation > provided with a reference to a full description *of the manuscript > supplied elsewhere, typically as the content of a msDesc or > bibl element." Should this be: > As the last example shows, in addition to providing a short > characterisation, the witness description may be complemented with a > reference to a fuller description..." OK, that makes more sense. Thanks. > > 3) I changed "Constance Group C of mss" to "Constant Group C of mss" > (since the in the following example states "Constant Group C of > mss", but I wasn't sure what "mss" was and whether it should be > capitalized as one instance of "MSS" was later in the chapter, "There > are no certain instances of this mark as an abbreviation for 'u' in > these MSS..." (I was also unsure of whether that instance were correct > or clear to others as well). > inconsistency removed > 4) Should the example starting with " > Constant Group C", have a nested within a > due to the paragraph preceding stating "Such sigla may be > documented as pseudo-witnesses in their own right by including a > nested witness list within the witness list"? > This is kind of implied, I think. But I've made it clearer in the example. > *12.2 Linking the Apparatus to the Text > * > Is there some means of indicating a type or id of a > if one could have situations where multiple methods were used or > multiple locations existed? > I dont think this has been thought out completely. You could have muliple s with different ids, and then use the @decls attribute to indicate which applied to a given part of a text if it were a member of att.declarable. But it isn't! > *12.2.1 The Location-referenced Method* > > Might XPointer (denoting text ranges, for example) be used with this > approach to avoid the problems with not being able to offer an > "unambiguous reconstruction of the lemma"? > Yes, xpointer ranges would give a lot more expressivity. > *12.2.3 The Parallel Segmentation Method* > > "Thus, the concepts of a base text and of a lemma become unnecessary". > Might not still have its uses as indicating an original text? > in this method all texts are "original" in some sense. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 27 12:47:21 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:47:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] 13 Names, Dates, People, and Places In-Reply-To: <4799634E.9050004@yahoo.com> References: <4799634E.9050004@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <479CC3A9.1090106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > > One general question first if I may... Is there a means at present to > indicate the value for a which is not W3C or ISO standard? > Under which attribute could some normalized (but non-W3C/ISO-standard) > form be placed? I don't see any @value attribute anymore... I forget > where you all are with this one... No. There is enough confusion in the world as it is... you can make the *content* of your date element whatever format you please, but the consensus was in favour of restricting the normalized attribute values to forms which there was at least a chance that generic XML schema processors (etc) would be able to validate. Some felt that we should choose *either* W3C *or* ISO formats but not both. The current state of affairs is a bit of a halfway house in that direction. Of course if you want to add an attribute to supply a value normalised according to some other scheme you can do so, but the TEI isn't going to. > > How about renaming the chapter to Names, People, Places, and Dates to > keep the People-Place-Thing sequence together? You mean because dates is the last thing discussed in the chapter? well, possibly. but the council chose this title after much debate, so I am a bit reluctant to change it. > > *13.1.1 Linking Names and their Referents > * > For this line, "These attributes are designed to support two different > ways of associating a name, of any kind, with its referent, and with > its canonical form.", there seems to be no explanation of what these > two ways are (and the introduction of 3 attributes previous to this > might suggest that there are three ways instead of two. > The rest of this section discusses this. There are 2 different ways of linking name and referent, and one way of linking name and canonical form, hence 3 attributes. I tinkered with the sentence a little to see if I could make it a bit clearer. > *13.2.1 Personal Names > * > Middle names and names containing references to a city/town/village of > origin would seem to me to call for their own tags given their > frequency. Are there are plans for this? > Not currently, but you can certainly propose such additions. > *13.2.3 Place Names > * > Since, as indicated by footnote 40, it seems "figurative" may be > implied by use of , how about adding that to the definition of > ? Otherwise, it is not immediately clear how may differ from > . The distinction between rs and name is discussed in the core chapter. I'm not sure that either this example or the footnote is really helpful or utterly reliable... an is not necessarily figurative. > > *13.2.3.1 Geo-political Place Names > * > For 's definition (not in source), how about adding a hyphen > within "nation state"? > Wikipedia doesnt use one. > *13.2.3.2 Geographic Names > * > 1) Is there a specific place in the head for the policy on name tag > choices (e.g., geogName over placeName)? I assume by "head" here you mean "header" -- and no, there isn't. Is the distinction between and not adequately defined? it's rarely a policy decision which to use I would have thought! > > 2) Add a comma to the definition for (not in source), after > "mount" and before "etc.". > OK > 3) Are there special tags for things like a famous residence/mansion? > These would be types of placeName, I suggest, since they are geo-political. > 4) Both in this line, "The most efficient way of including this > information in the above encoding would be to create a separate > nym element for this component of the name and then point to > it using the nymRef attribute, as further discussed in target="#NDNYM"/>." and in the Nym section to which it points, there > is no indication as to where should be placed... > A can only appear within a (or another ), as the specification states. It is exactly analogous to and . > *13.3.1 Basic Principles* > > 1) For the line, "Characteristics or > traits are typically independent of an > individual's volition or action and can be either physical, such as > sex or hair and eye colour, or cultural, such as ethnicity, caste, or > faith." I really disagree with including "faith" as something which is > independent of an individual's volition or action. But many people are born into a faith, are they not? they cannot be said to choose that any more than they choose their parents? Of course they may go on to choose a different faith, but even when they do, they will often say they are an "ex-muslim" or "ex-jew" or whatever. > While people do often imitate their parents and treat faith (or lack > of it) as a matter of inheritance, it makes little sense as such > (granted, in some cases, for historical reasons, it has become > associated with race, but there is always a means of distinction). If > the description stayed with the idea that these features tend not to > change very much over time (like political party affiliation or lack > of affiliation or the element which is a "state"), I > think this would be fairly reasonable, though it may be just as > changeable as a place of residence or occupation. > We will probably have to agree to disagree on this one! > 2) Also, the definition of (not in source), says that it > refers to some "ongoing status or quality", which would seem to > contradict the sense that it is more of a less-fixed quality than > , for example; should it be changed to "potentially alterable > status or quality"?. And for the definition of , did you want > to indicate in the definition that it was "relatively fixed" as well > as "culturally-determined"? > I've tried to improve the descriptions for both state and trait to make clearer that the fundamental distinction between them is to do with changeability > *13.3.2.2 Personal States* > > 1) Again on some of the "changeable" characteristics, I find it > inconsistent that is a state, but is a > characteristic. > Yes, I see that this does look a bit odd, and maybe langKnowledge is a boundary case. But education is definitely a state, surely? > 2) The example beginning, "" > seems it ought to have an introduction before it... > OK, added a sentence > *13.3.2.3 Personal Events > * > "It [event] is used to describe any event in the life of an > individual.". Since the definition at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-event.html > mentions it can also refer to an organization, might this be amended > to say "individual or individuals"? > OK, yes. > *13.3.2.4 Personal Relationships* > > 1) Can elements be placed in their own dedicated document? yes, since they are linked to by pointer and a TEI pointer can now go across documents. However, I think we need a lot more description about where these elements are best placed. > > 2) Also, might this section mention where and > can be placed? While this kind of information could be found in the > manual, DTD, etc., I think it helps to have an anchor to know where > these items are going. Yes, I agree. In most of the examples, they are included along with one or other of the things being related, but I am not sure that this will always be the best solution. Some more thought is needed on this topic. > > 3) Might also some mention be made here of ontologies (since this > section's topic seems to impinge on the issue)? (I think it might also > be nice to allow for any item, concept, dates, etc...) > We were hoping to keep this chapter comparatively modest in scope... > *13.3.4.1 Varieties of Location* > > The definition of at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-geo.html > states, "If no such element is supplied, the assumption is that the > content of each geo element will be a pair of numbers to be > interpreted as latitude followed by longitude according to the World > Geodetic System." Especially since no example is provided there, maybe > the end could be emended to state "interpreted as latitude, followed > by whitespace and then longitude"? And perhaps also mention could be > made of the intervening whitespace for the line which is in the > chapter, "The default recommended by these Guidelines is to supply a > string containing two real numbers which indicate latitude and > longitude according to the 1984 World Geodetic System (WGS84)"? > OK, have added reference to white space in both places and an example in the tagdoc. There is an example in the text, btw. > *13.3.5 Names and Nyms* > > For the examples with a @nymRef leading to a with a
(in > this case "Antony" for "Tony"), I think it might be helpful to > indicate whether this construct implies that the individual in > question actually had this name (as on a birth certificate) or not, > and if not, a reminder of where that information should be placed. > No, the has *nothing* to do with any individual who happens to use one of its forms. That information would be implicit by the attached to the . I've added a sentence to try to make that clearer. > *13.3.6.3 More Expressive Normalizations* > > Might you add a footnote to > http://www.iso.org/iso/catalogue_detail?csnumber=40874 for the > reference to the ISO "Data elements and interchange formats ? > Information interchange ? Representation of dates and times" standard? > Well, it is not our general policy when citing ISO or other standards to point to places you can buy them from. But I agree there should probably be a better bibliographic reference for this as for the other ISO standards cited in the text. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 27 13:00:29 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:00:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 10 - Manuscript Description In-Reply-To: <4798E8DD.8000809@kcl.ac.uk> References: <4790D381.9000401@yahoo.com> <47937DF6.7090902@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4798E8DD.8000809@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479CC6BD.7040508@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Arianna Ciula wrote: > > - example: > > ff. 1r-24v > ?grip af Noregs konunga s?gum > regi oc hann seti > ho > sc heim sem ?io > hon hever > oc ?a buit hesta .ij. annan vi? f? en > honom annan til rei?ar > > > > Surely all those should be instead. As should those in some other examples. Now fixed. > > - "Although no specific notation is defined here, provision is made > for the tagging of such with the standard TEI element. Here > are some examples of different ways of treating collation:" > > I think the fact that is available only if the figures > module is used should be made explicit here. > Agreed. Have revised text accordingly. > - "The locus element discussed in 10.3.5 References to Locations > within a Manuscript can then indicate which foliation scheme is being > cited by means of its @source attribute, which points to this > identifier:" > > The attribute is @scheme and not @source. > Ooops. Fixed. Also added example. > - "for example, at the point in the transcript where the second hand > listed above starts (i.e. at folio 72v:4), we might insert handShift > new="#Eirsp-2"/." > It would be nice to have an example here. Not sure what this would add: want to suggest one? From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 27 13:40:33 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:40:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 14 - Tables, Formulae, and Graphics In-Reply-To: <479AC653.10508@yahoo.com> References: <479AC653.10508@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <479CD021.7020607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > For note 44 occurring within 14.1 Tables, "A markup scheme could > equally well define tables as being composed of columns of cells, but > this is rarely if ever done in practice", this information seems to be > conveyed just a little while later in 14.1.1 TEI Tables: "It is to a > large extent arbitrary whether a table should be regarded as a series > of rows or as a series of columns. For compatibility with currently > available systems, however, these Guidelines require a row-by-row > description of a table." Yes. I removed the footnote. > > For note 45, "In this case additional redefinitions may also be needed > to avoid name clashes with existing TEI elements.", won't name clashes > be avoided by the use of namespaces? > Yes. This footnote predates the existence of namespaces, of course. Removed. > For note 46, "We do not show here how the MathML names are to be > included in the TEI namespace", why would they be included in the same > namespace? If they actually would be, how about a reference to where > it is explained how this would be done? > * > * This chapter really has not been brought up to date! The note is particularly stupid becaiuse it is immediately followed by an example which shows precisely how you embed MathML within a TEI document! Removed note again. > *14.1.1 TEI Tables* > > 1) For the line, "For both tables and cells, rows and columns are > always given in top-to-bottom, left-to-right order.", maybe this could > be qualified with something to the effect that CSS can be used to > reverse the order of a table's presentation? (e.g., for Arabic, > Hebrew, etc.) OK, added a phrase to that effect > > 2) Why are there no examples using @role="data"? > It's the default, I suppose. > *14.2 Formulae and Mathematical Expressions* > > 1) What about the idea of making certain elements such as > belong to a schema type "ANY"? It seems that for such information as > formula (with MathML, etc.) and graphics (e.g,. SVG), it would be > pretty common to wish to allow external grammars, and doing so > wouldn't force documents to become non-conformant, and could be easily > ignored by TEI-conformant processors which weren't enhanced to > understand whatever vocabularies might be used within the tags.... > Projects that wished to have a stricter schema could make a stricter > customization with no effect on conformance... I really feel this > would be a very helpful change and could promote more flexibility for > documents' expressiveness... > I'm not sure what you mean by "a schema type ANY": do you mean "having a content model of ANY"? That's possible, but doesn't preclude you from the need to define the elements which might appear there in your schema. The use of namespaces is a much more effective solution to this problem, and is also fully standards compliant, so that a document can be validated against an appropriate schema. And using a non TEI namespace for element content is not necessarily "non-conformant": see further the discussion in the chapter on this topic. > 2) For the line, "It [MathML 2.0] also provided a modularized version > of the MathML DTD so that MathML fragments > embedded in XHTML 1.1 documents *as data islands* > can be correctly validated.", I wonder whether use of the term "data > islands" may convey the impression (as the term is used in Explorer > with XML data islands) that the MathML is simply stored as a reservoir > for Javascript manipulations, etc., rather than as something which can > be read directly (by MathML-aware processors). > I've removed the phrase "as data islands" in the interests of simplicity > *14.3 Specific Elements for Graphic Images > * > Any thought to the idea of requiring when it is added, for > the sake of accessibility? This kind of requirement has become > standard in languages such as XHTML. > Again, this is a proposal you should submit as a sourceforge feature request! > best wishes, > Brett From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 27 13:49:34 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 18:49:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] small addition to comments on 14 Tables, Formulae, and Graphics In-Reply-To: <479AC773.4000601@yahoo.com> References: <479AC773.4000601@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <479CD23E.9060307@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIF , patents have expired > for GIF and for TIFF, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIFF , it seems > like it is only the specification that is copyrighted, so although you > do qualify the sentence, maybe these could still be added to the list > now?: > > "With the exception of SMIL, CGM, JPEG, PNG, and SVG, all the > formats listed here are proprietary to a greater or lesser extent > and cannot therefore be regarded as standards in any meaningful > sense. They are however widely used by many different vendors. > > Brett Definitely a sentence which is past its sell-by date. It's gone. Lou h From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan 27 18:50:59 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 23:50:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] 13 Names, Dates, People, an d Places In-Reply-To: <479CC3A9.1090106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4799634E.9050004@yahoo.com> <479CC3A9.1090106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479D18E3.7080609@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou's Laptop wrote: > Brett Zamir wrote: >> 1) For the line, "Characteristics or >> traits are typically independent of an >> individual's volition or action and can be either physical, such as >> sex or hair and eye colour, or cultural, such as ethnicity, caste, or >> faith." I really disagree with including "faith" as something which is >> independent of an individual's volition or action. > But many people are born into a faith, are they not? they cannot be said > to choose that any more than they choose their parents? Of course they > may go on to choose a different faith, but even when they do, they will > often say they are an "ex-muslim" or "ex-jew" or whatever. It all depends how one defines faith. That the element's desc says "faith, religion, or belief set of a person" highlights this, I think. You can say a person is born into a religion because the family is that religion, as an extension to that you can say they are born into a faith, but then the silliness of this is exposed if you say someone is born into a particular belief set. It seems completely obvious that no child on birth, and at least for a few years after, has any particularly well-defined belief set that corresponds to a human-based organised religion. So while Lou is right that they are 'born into' this faith without their volition, it depends whether you view the faith element as indicating societal-perceived belief sets or actual belief sets. I won't go onto a tangent about how bizarre it is to claim that children have made up their minds about their belief sets long before we consider them rationally capable of making up their minds on much less serious issues. That is not the point. I think the viewing of this as a state instead of a trait is something which is an editorial decision for an individual project. I feel the Guidelines make it more than clear that none of these 'traits' are necessarily immutable. It could point out that faith is one of those that is particularly disputable to highlight the entire fluidity of traits vs states, perhaps. The interesting thing about these 'traits' though, including the sex element, are all members of att.datable which means they not only get a @from and @to attribute but a @when attribute and the rest. I think this is sufficiently loose in leaving it to any individual project to decide how they feel about this. I'm only thinking about this because a project I'm involved with is recording person elements for some people who quite demonstrably and obviously declared changes in faith. >> 1) Again on some of the "changeable" characteristics, I find it >> inconsistent that is a state, but is a >> characteristic. > Yes, I see that this does look a bit odd, and maybe langKnowledge is a > boundary case. But education is definitely a state, surely? I think it is slightly more complicated with both of these. When 'education' (or langKnown was used in corpora it tended to be a single historical fact, expressing the highest level of education (or languages known) that person had achieved at the point of recording. So for the context of that document it could be seen as a trait of the person, and I think many linguists use the concept of educational level in a similar way to faith, socecStatus, etc. 'Show me all the answers by secondary school students', etc. But are treated as fixed traits of the person, at the time of the creation of a spoken text. The problem comes when we take that concept of a person and use the same method to talk about an abstraction of that person over time rather than at a fixed point in time. In the abstracted general person description, their education is a state that changes over time, in the specific instance of any individual document, the person's education is a trait of the person at the point in time the document was created. Obviously the date of the document should be compared against any dates in any of these important states whenever making any such deductions and interpretations. (Though I worry some people might fall into this as a methodological trap! I wouldn't want a corpus of all the works I'd ever written to treat the essays I wrote in highschool equally to the articles I've written more recently!) I'm not suggesting the Guidelines change here though, just that we should be aware that what we view as a state of a person, others will be viewing as a trait of a person with respect to a particular document in time. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Jan 28 02:32:11 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:32:11 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting Message-ID: Dear all, In the past few months there's been some discussions related to the organisation of our next face to face meeting. It seems there could be some possibilitites to have it organized in Galway (Ireland), following a proposal by Malte Rehbein. According to the possibilities I have received and crossing with my own, this could be done at one of the two following periods: - 2-5 April - 9-12 April Could I just check with you how many could definitely not make it? We would have (as is the "tradition" now) a two-day meeting complemented by a one day seminar. Best wishes, Laurent From tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no Mon Jan 28 03:13:27 2008 From: tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no (Tone Merete Bruvik) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:13:27 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Laurent, For me will the first option be the best one (we have small kids, and my husband will be a way 11-12 April, it would be a bit inconvenient if I have to be a way as well). And congratulation as chair of the TEI Council, Laurent! I am very pleased to have you with us. Best regards, Tone Merete Bruvik tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no ---- The Research Group for Text Technology - Aksis (The Department of Culture, Language and Information Technology), Unifob AS All?gaten 27 - N-5020 Bergen, Norway Den 28. jan. 2008 kl. 08.32 skrev Laurent Romary: > Dear all, > In the past few months there's been some discussions related to the > organisation of our next face to face meeting. It seems there could > be some possibilitites to have it organized in Galway (Ireland), > following a proposal by Malte Rehbein. According to the possibilities > I have received and crossing with my own, this could be done at one > of the two following periods: > - 2-5 April > - 9-12 April > Could I just check with you how many could definitely not make it? > > We would have (as is the "tradition" now) a two-day meeting > complemented by a one day seminar. > > Best wishes, > Laurent > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From pboot at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 28 03:48:22 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:48:22 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <479D96D6.7060506@xs4all.nl> Dear Laurent, Both sets of dates are OK. I'd like to second Tone's congratulations. Best, Peter Tone Merete Bruvik schreef: > Dear Laurent, > > For me will the first option be the best one (we have small kids, and > my husband will be a way 11-12 April, it would be a bit inconvenient > if I have to be a way as well). > > And congratulation as chair of the TEI Council, Laurent! I am very > pleased to have you with us. > > Best regards, > > Tone Merete Bruvik > tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no > ---- > The Research Group for Text Technology - Aksis (The Department of > Culture, Language and Information Technology), Unifob AS > All?gaten 27 - N-5020 Bergen, Norway From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Mon Jan 28 07:49:23 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:49:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <479DCF53.6070106@kcl.ac.uk> Both are good for me at the moment. Arianna Laurent Romary wrote: > Dear all, > In the past few months there's been some discussions related to the > organisation of our next face to face meeting. It seems there could > be some possibilitites to have it organized in Galway (Ireland), > following a proposal by Malte Rehbein. According to the possibilities > I have received and crossing with my own, this could be done at one > of the two following periods: > - 2-5 April > - 9-12 April > Could I just check with you how many could definitely not make it? > > We would have (as is the "tradition" now) a two-day meeting > complemented by a one day seminar. > > Best wishes, > Laurent > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk Mon Jan 28 08:49:09 2008 From: elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk (Elena Pierazzo) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:49:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <479DDD55.6010800@kcl.ac.uk> Both dates are good for me. Elena Laurent Romary wrote: > Dear all, > In the past few months there's been some discussions related to the > organisation of our next face to face meeting. It seems there could > be some possibilitites to have it organized in Galway (Ireland), > following a proposal by Malte Rehbein. According to the possibilities > I have received and crossing with my own, this could be done at one > of the two following periods: > - 2-5 April > - 9-12 April > Could I just check with you how many could definitely not make it? > > We would have (as is the "tradition" now) a two-day meeting > complemented by a one day seminar. > > Best wishes, > Laurent > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- Dr Elena Pierazzo Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 28 10:14:48 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:14:48 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: <479DDD55.6010800@kcl.ac.uk> References: <479DDD55.6010800@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479DF168.5020605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Both are fine with me. -James Elena Pierazzo wrote: > Both dates are good for me. > > Elena > > Laurent Romary wrote: >> Dear all, >> In the past few months there's been some discussions related to the >> organisation of our next face to face meeting. It seems there could >> be some possibilitites to have it organized in Galway (Ireland), >> following a proposal by Malte Rehbein. According to the possibilities >> I have received and crossing with my own, this could be done at one >> of the two following periods: >> - 2-5 April >> - 9-12 April >> Could I just check with you how many could definitely not make it? >> >> We would have (as is the "tradition" now) a two-day meeting >> complemented by a one day seminar. >> >> Best wishes, >> Laurent >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Mon Jan 28 12:53:00 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 12:53:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Styling of TEI in HTML Guidelines In-Reply-To: <4785421C.10309@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <477D79D2.40806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E7F34.6040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E8157.7090503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E81E9.8030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477E82D8.7050102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <477FB0E9.9090106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18304.38633.501005.707480@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <4780BC2C.9020705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18305.335.822143.18070@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <4785421C.10309@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200801281753.m0SHr0Ck012667@perseus.services.brown.edu> > ... the point is that is more general in its applicaion than > . All s are s, but not all s are > s. An is the name which is used specifically and > solely to identify the entity concerned. Interesting. While I agree that is more general in its application, I'm not sure all s are s. E.g., on my local filesystem I think of tei_all.rnc as the name of an important file (and would encode that string with ). But that's just a name, which does not uniquely identify that file even within the confines of my system, as there are 2 or 3 other files on the system with the same name. Without getting into the nuances of a Unix filesystem, inode numbers, hard vs. symbolic links, etc., I think it is reasonable to think of /usr/share/xml/tei/custom/schema/relaxng/tei_all.rnc as the identifier for the version that was installed via the Debian package. While I might encode that string as an , the important part for this discussion is that I would not encode it as a . > I don't know how you could "more uniquely" pick out the > att.datable.w3c class than by supplying its identifier -- the > string used as the value for its @ident attribute, no less. Indeed if there is only one level of reference to an entity, it is sort of angels on the head of a pin as to whether you encode that one kind of reference as an , a , or an . But one way one would more uniquely identify "att.datable.w3c" is to identify the version for my customization, which includes its prefix. And I think that the fact that we think of "att.datable.w3c" as a class name is an argument that we should have called the relevant attribute name= instead of ident=. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 28 13:02:45 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:02:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines multillinguial Message-ID: <479E18C5.6040304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> [I am now back on this list, as per request for continuity from Laurent] In preparation for release, consider http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ You'll see I have added links to translated setups, so far as they go; I am especially working with the French and Chinese to get as much as possible of the interface translated. So the design has changed a little to suit. See anything which upsets you? Arianna and Elena, do you want to translate some extra phrases for me, to get it done quickly? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 28 13:30:12 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:30:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 15 - Language Corpora In-Reply-To: <479D7D1C.2040302@yahoo.com> References: <479D7D1C.2040302@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <479E1F34.6020802@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > If the corpus chapter could be used for corpora besides language > corpora, any thought to rename the chapter to just Corpora or Textual > and Language Corpora? > I Well, you could argue that all of TEI P5 is about textual corpora in some sense! This chapter is specifically about how you use it for language corpora; it was introduced largely because we were told that many of those working with language corpora needed to have the relevant features of TEI picked out for them. Maybe "Language and other corpora"? > > The definitions for and , (not in source) I > think ought to have a comma added before their "etc." > agreed > The definition for (not in source), I think ought to have > commas surrounding "for example". > yes: reworded it a bit too > I changed "It may refer simply to any collection of linguistic data > (e.g., written, spoken, or a mixture of the two)" to include the > "e.g.,", since besides potentially including sign language, there are > also more obscure forms of "linguistic data" such as signals/code, > knots, etc. > OK > *15.1 Varieties of Composite Text > * > If one were managing a collection which included a document which were > published both as part of a larger work (e.g., within a corpus) as > well as independently, would there be some particular means for that > project to correlate the two together to indicate that they were > identical? Sorry if this were already covered somewhere and I just > missed it... It's been a while since I read through this, and I've > only had time for a one-time through... I tink you wuld get this information from the header of the respective documents. > > *15.2.3 The Setting Description > * > When the docs say "it is not possible to encode different settings for > the same participant: a participant is deemed to be a person within a > specific setting", why is this so? That is how we define things. > Might not a person move to another setting (or even the same setting > as another existing participant's) within one interaction? If a participant moves to a different setting, we treat them as a different participant. That's common practice so far as I know. Of course, at a later stage we might decide that participants X and Y are actually the same person, but that's in general quite difficult to do for most real life language corpora I've seen. Remember that a "participant" may be "unidentified voice no 2" -- definitely not the same as "unidentified voice no 2" in a different setting. > If so, would be added to the list of declarable elements > in 15.3.2? > It probably should be, but not for this reason. > *15.3.2 Declarable Elements* > > 1) Though perhaps this might seem a stretch at this point, might > also be expanded to refer as applying to not only > "spoken" texts but also any live interactions such as internet chats? > Not really. The script underlying a spoken interaction is distinct from it. In the case of an IRC chat, the script *is* the interaction. > 2) For the line "Each element specified, explicitly or implicitly, by > the list of identifiers must be of a different type." referring to > identifiers specified by @decls, might "type" be changed to "kind" to > prevent ambiguity with the @type attribute? > if you like! though I dont think there is much ambiguity here. > *15.5 Recommendations for the Encoding of Large Corpora* > > In addition to "required", "recommended" and "optional", perhaps a > category of "prohibited" or "removed" might be appropriate (it can > help sometimes as much to know what a project does not need or want > encoded)... OK, added "proscribed". From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 28 13:34:36 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:34:36 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines multillinguial In-Reply-To: <479E18C5.6040304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479E18C5.6040304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479E203C.2090708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Welcome back. Would you like to remind the world when the planned release date for the next/final version of P5 is? I suspect some readers (e.g. BZ) might like to squeeze a few more corrections in before that date. The multilingual stuff looks lovely. Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > [I am now back on this list, as per request for continuity from Laurent] > > In preparation for release, consider > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ > > You'll see I have added links to translated setups, > so far as they go; I am especially working with the > French and Chinese to get as much as possible > of the interface translated. So the design > has changed a little to suit. > > See anything which upsets you? > > Arianna and Elena, do you want to translate > some extra phrases for me, to get it done quickly? > > From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 28 13:47:46 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:47:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines multillinguial In-Reply-To: <479E203C.2090708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479E18C5.6040304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479E203C.2090708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479E2352.9050705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou's Laptop wrote: > > Would you like to remind the world when the planned release date for > the next/final version of P5 is? I suspect some readers (e.g. BZ) > might like to squeeze a few more corrections in before that date. > I'd like to make one more attempt at getting documentation of free-standing ODD files right; but then do a release next weekend. So would it be OK to say that we make midnight GMT on 1st February the closing date for changes to P5 source? I don't want to let this slip much more, unless we know really good stuff is just days away. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 28 13:49:04 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:49:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines multillinguial In-Reply-To: <479E2352.9050705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479E18C5.6040304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479E203C.2090708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479E2352.9050705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479E23A0.9090702@oucs.ox.ac.uk> OK by me. Maybe our new chair would like to make an announcement to that effect on TEI-L? Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Lou's Laptop wrote: >> >> Would you like to remind the world when the planned release date for >> the next/final version of P5 is? I suspect some readers (e.g. BZ) >> might like to squeeze a few more corrections in before that date. >> > I'd like to make one more attempt at getting documentation > of free-standing ODD files right; but then do a release > next weekend. So would it be OK to say that we make midnight > GMT on 1st February the closing date for changes to P5 source? > > I don't want to let this slip much more, unless we know > really good stuff is just days away. > From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 28 13:53:42 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:53:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines multillinguial In-Reply-To: <479E23A0.9090702@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479E18C5.6040304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479E203C.2090708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479E2352.9050705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479E23A0.9090702@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479E24B6.4010208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I should have said, the Roma at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Roma/ and the Guidelines at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ (and points west) are my release candidates. If you something you don't like here, squeak. If you say "that heading used to be italic, didn't it?", the answer is that italicization of Chinese and Japanese is frowned upon, and I wanted to make it easy to generate their copies. Sebastian From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Jan 28 20:36:18 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 20:36:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Both dates are open for me; no preference. David On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Laurent Romary wrote: > Dear all, > In the past few months there's been some discussions related to the > organisation of our next face to face meeting. It seems there could > be some possibilitites to have it organized in Galway (Ireland), > following a proposal by Malte Rehbein. According to the possibilities > I have received and crossing with my own, this could be done at one > of the two following periods: > - 2-5 April > - 9-12 April > Could I just check with you how many could definitely not make it? > > We would have (as is the "tradition" now) a two-day meeting > complemented by a one day seminar. > > Best wishes, > Laurent > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Jan 29 10:53:50 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:53:50 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1201622030.21335.9.camel@odonned-eng06> Me too. On Mon, 2008-01-28 at 20:36 -0500, David Sewell wrote: > Both dates are open for me; no preference. > > David > > On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Laurent Romary wrote: > > > Dear all, > > In the past few months there's been some discussions related to the > > organisation of our next face to face meeting. It seems there could > > be some possibilitites to have it organized in Galway (Ireland), > > following a proposal by Malte Rehbein. According to the possibilities > > I have received and crossing with my own, this could be done at one > > of the two following periods: > > - 2-5 April > > - 9-12 April > > Could I just check with you how many could definitely not make it? > > > > We would have (as is the "tradition" now) a two-day meeting > > complemented by a one day seminar. > > > > Best wishes, > > Laurent > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 12:45:40 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:45:40 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] persName question Message-ID: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> 'persName' picks up a @key, @ref, and @nymRef from att.naming. http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-att.naming.html @key is defined as data.key = any unicode string @ref is defined as a single data.pointer = any URI @nymRef is defined as 1?? data.pointer = any number of URIs. I'm in a situation where a project wants to point from something like: Mr and Mrs Smith or The Smiths or The Smiths and little johnny or The Smiths and little johnny and his 3 sisters well, though maybe those last two are stretching it. What I'm wondering is why @ref and maybe @key are also one to infinity like nymRef? What they want to do is on one 'persName' point to more than one individual 'person' element. I.e. they know stuff about both Mr and Mrs Smith and want to record their information separately. Now, They could point instead to a nested 'listPerson' which then contains both 'person' elements, but how do you differentiate that in this instance it is Mr and Mrs Smith, but in this other instance just Mrs Smith and kids. They end up with lots like the second example 'The Smiths' meaning usually just the adult members (which change over time). And there are so many other possible nestings of listPerson, how do you cope for them all? I'm just trying to remember what the logic was in allowing nymRef to have more than one URI but having ref only allowed to have one? I am sure I could think up many cases where a single name referent refers to multiple people (who are not treated as a group, so personGrp is not the answer). In cases such as this I don't think pointing to a single listPerson which groups multiple person elements is the right answer (because then you have to repeat multiple listPerson elements for different groupings). Wouldn't it be a lot better to allow: The Smiths Other options open to me as I see it: a) abuse the whitespace allowed in @key (oops maybe not) b) add an entire new attribute (good but I wanted to avoid extra namespaces) c) use some abusive local encoding format that I then canonicalise to a pure TEI solution at a later date. Thoughts? Am I missing something obvious? -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 13:22:03 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:22:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] persName question In-Reply-To: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479F6ECB.8090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Whatever else you do don't abuse semantics.... The "mark it simply and canonicalize it later" is OK, but you'd still want to use a new namespaced attribute, I reckon, for sanity. What about two other cases: a) John Smith where we are not sure _which_ John it is (we know of three). In this case would have a different meaning (ie alternation rather than a list) b) where there are two useful and distinct pointers to the same person. So does a multiple @ref mean #1, #2 #1 | #2 #1 & #2 ? how would we distinguish? You _could_ organize your family into ... ... ... what would be the problem with that? the fact that Marge would also occur in the Bouvier family? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 14:37:17 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:37:17 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <479F806D.607@kcl.ac.uk> In theory I have no clashes with either, but I'm running a workshop in Italy from the 14th to the 18th, so the earlier dates would be *much* more convenient for me. (I'd almost certainly have to leave earlier than the 12th.) Best, Gabriel Laurent Romary a ?crit : > Dear all, > In the past few months there's been some discussions related to the > organisation of our next face to face meeting. It seems there could > be some possibilitites to have it organized in Galway (Ireland), > following a proposal by Malte Rehbein. According to the possibilities > I have received and crossing with my own, this could be done at one > of the two following periods: > - 2-5 April > - 9-12 April > Could I just check with you how many could definitely not make it? > > We would have (as is the "tradition" now) a two-day meeting > complemented by a one day seminar. > > Best wishes, > Laurent > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 15:39:04 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:39:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] broken schemas in exemplars Message-ID: <479F8EE8.6070706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David raised the issue of the TEI exemplars failing the Roma Sanity Checker. I'd like to get these sorted a.s.a.p. for example, I propose to exclude the elements imprint, tagUsage, namespace, rendition, handNote from TEI Lite, because they are unreachable. Good idea or bad idea? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Tue Jan 29 16:33:09 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:33:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] broken schemas in exemplars In-Reply-To: <479F8EE8.6070706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F8EE8.6070706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: I actually think that global @rendition would be useful in TEI Lite. However, if we're excluding then there's no mechanism to add elements, and therefore nothing for @rendition to point to legally (although with the existing P5 TEI Lite schema, using @rendition="#whatever" does not produce a validation error). If rendition goes then @rendition should be removed from att.global. On Tue, 29 Jan 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > David raised the issue of the TEI exemplars failing the > Roma Sanity Checker. > > I'd like to get these sorted a.s.a.p. > > for example, I propose to exclude the elements > imprint, tagUsage, namespace, rendition, handNote > from TEI Lite, because they are unreachable. > > Good idea or bad idea? > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 16:38:53 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:38:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] broken schemas in exemplars In-Reply-To: References: <479F8EE8.6070706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479F9CED.8000806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > I actually think that global @rendition would be useful in TEI Lite. > However, if we're excluding then there's no mechanism to > add elements, and therefore nothing for @rendition to point > to legally (although with the existing P5 TEI Lite schema, using > @rendition="#whatever" does not produce a validation error). > agreed, we have to decide whether is out, or is in. Who wants to make a judgement call on this? well, seems clear to me that simplest is to put back in to Lite. > If rendition goes then @rendition should be removed from att.global. > very true David, could you possibly do a report on the other Exemplars and make a proposal for fixes? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 16:51:04 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 21:51:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] broken schemas in exemplars In-Reply-To: <479F9CED.8000806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F8EE8.6070706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F9CED.8000806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479F9FC8.1000402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> FWIW, I was going to respond to the earlier comment suggesting that we should reinstate tagsDecl in TEI Lite Except that it will mean quite some expansion of the tutorial documentation. Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > David Sewell wrote: > >> I actually think that global @rendition would be useful in TEI Lite. >> However, if we're excluding then there's no mechanism to >> add elements, and therefore nothing for @rendition to point >> to legally (although with the existing P5 TEI Lite schema, using >> @rendition="#whatever" does not produce a validation error). >> >> > agreed, we have to decide whether is out, > or is in. Who wants to make a judgement > call on this? well, seems clear to me that simplest is to > put back in to Lite. > >> If rendition goes then @rendition should be removed from att.global. >> >> > very true > > David, could you possibly do a report on the other Exemplars > and make a proposal for fixes? > > From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 17:03:06 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:03:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] broken schemas in exemplars In-Reply-To: <479F9FC8.1000402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F8EE8.6070706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F9CED.8000806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F9FC8.1000402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479FA29A.3090201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou Burnard wrote: > FWIW, I was going to respond to the earlier comment suggesting that we > should reinstate tagsDecl in TEI Lite > Except that it will mean quite some expansion of the tutorial > documentation. > hmm. any chance of doing that before Friday? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Tue Jan 29 17:35:11 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:35:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] broken schemas in exemplars In-Reply-To: <479F9FC8.1000402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F8EE8.6070706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F9CED.8000806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F9FC8.1000402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: This just led me to notice an error in the TEI Header chapter, at 2.3.4, The Tagging Declaration: The element consists of an optional sequence of elements, each of which must bear a unique identifier, followed by at least one element... In fact both and are optional: element tagsDecl { att.global.attributes, ( rendition*, namespace* ) } Change wording to "... followed by an optional sequence of one or more elements"? On Tue, 29 Jan 2008, Lou Burnard wrote: > FWIW, I was going to respond to the earlier comment suggesting that we should > reinstate tagsDecl in TEI Lite > Except that it will mean quite some expansion of the tutorial documentation. > > > Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > David Sewell wrote: > > > > > I actually think that global @rendition would be useful in TEI Lite. > > > However, if we're excluding then there's no mechanism to > > > add elements, and therefore nothing for @rendition to point > > > to legally (although with the existing P5 TEI Lite schema, using > > > @rendition="#whatever" does not produce a validation error). > > > > > agreed, we have to decide whether is out, > > or is in. Who wants to make a judgement > > call on this? well, seems clear to me that simplest is to > > put back in to Lite. > > > > > If rendition goes then @rendition should be removed from att.global. > > > > > very true > > > > David, could you possibly do a report on the other Exemplars > > and make a proposal for fixes? > > > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Tue Jan 29 17:36:44 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:36:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] broken schemas in exemplars In-Reply-To: <479F9CED.8000806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F8EE8.6070706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F9CED.8000806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Jan 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > David, could you possibly do a report on the other Exemplars > and make a proposal for fixes? Yes, I'll do this tonight. Though my proposals for fixes may be couched in tentative language as I wasn't involved in development of the exemplar customizations. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 17:38:59 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:38:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] broken schemas in exemplars In-Reply-To: References: <479F8EE8.6070706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F9CED.8000806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479FAB03.4010005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > Yes, I'll do this tonight. Though my proposals for fixes may be > couched in tentative language as I wasn't involved in development of the > exemplar customizations. > don't worry too much about this; most of the Exemplars are pretty mechanical selections of modules and did not involve much detailed thought. Lite, Tite and Bare are the seriously hand-crafted ones. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From james.cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 18:34:26 2008 From: james.cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:34:26 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] persName question In-Reply-To: <479F6ECB.8090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F6ECB.8090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20080129233426.1076450077@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080129/440a68e2/attachment.ksh From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 18:39:39 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:39:39 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page Message-ID: <479FB93B.7030000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Marcus B suggested a change, instantiated at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/, of showing chapter numbers. any problems with that? thanks to splendid work by our colleagues from Italy, GE8 in France, and Marcus B in Taiwan, the setups for Italian, Chinese and French are not looking pretty sharp. Arianna and Elena might like to consider the unfortunate effect in the Italian front page... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 18:42:13 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:42:13 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] persName question In-Reply-To: <20080129233426.1076450077@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F6ECB.8090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080129233426.1076450077@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479FB9D5.4090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote > And if Bart was there as well? How would I say Marge and Bart were 'the simpsons' in question attending an event? yes, fair point. I still dont think the multiple @ref flies, though, because of the ambiguity of what it means. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From james.cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 18:47:45 2008 From: james.cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:47:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page In-Reply-To: <479FB93B.7030000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20080129234746.0A03B50045@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080129/0adc13b4/attachment.ksh From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 18:49:29 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:49:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page In-Reply-To: <20080129234746.0A03B50045@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> References: <20080129234746.0A03B50045@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479FBB89.9090809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > with all this I18N will the menu of the TEI website be internationalised as well? Looks really strange to me to have italian or chinese here and there, but a fixed menu bar across the top in english. > I know what you mean. we can get around to that in due course, but not this week. I have probably exhausted the patience of my emergency translators in the last few days.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 18:50:31 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:50:31 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page In-Reply-To: <20080129234746.0A03B50045@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> References: <20080129234746.0A03B50045@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <479FBBC7.90100@oucs.ox.ac.uk> when I said >> thanks to splendid work by our colleagues >> from Italy, GE8 in France, and Marcus B in Taiwan, >> the setups for Italian, Chinese and French >> are not looking pretty sharp >> s/not/now/ sorry -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From james.cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 29 19:00:30 2008 From: james.cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 00:00:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] persName question In-Reply-To: <479FB9D5.4090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F6ECB.8090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080129233426.1076450077@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> <479FB9D5.4090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20080130000030.AD68D50014@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080130/89e6da43/attachment.ksh From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Jan 29 22:14:29 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:14:29 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page In-Reply-To: <479FB93B.7030000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479FB93B.7030000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18335.60309.660099.57121@emt.wwp.brown.edu> SR> Marcus B suggested a change, instantiated at SR> http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/, of showing SR> chapter numbers. SR> SR> any problems with that? I think the change is an improvement, but the change we should be making is to get rid of this page altogether. It is not supposed to exist, and, frankly, has no excuse to exist except perhaps that Chris was too rushed to appropriately fold this page into http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/ in the lead-up to release. As the site is right now, to get to read the contents of P5 a user needs to go to the TEI website (http://www.tei-c.org/) and * click on "Guidelines" * either select "P5 Guidelines" from the javascript drop-down, or click on "P5 Guidelines" in the left-side navigation area * click on either "Browse the P5 Guidelines" in the left-side navigation area or "the online version of the P5 Guidelines" in the main prose (both take you to the same place, although the former via a redirect or some such) * click on "Table of Contents" This strikes me as one step too many. When the user clicks on "Browse" or "online" links, they should be taken straight to the TOC. The other links that are on what is now called "the front page" should be on the same page that has the "Browse" and "online" links. Conceptually there isn't really any difference between http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/index.xml and http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/index.html although they are implemented very differently, and of course the latter is part of the released package. I also find it a bit startling that the editors' names have been removed from this new "front page", as it was the only place in the online edition that they were mentioned. Perhaps I'm being a selfish glory-seeking pig, but I think it appropriate to mention me & Lou *somewhere* in the P5 hierarchy. From dsewell at virginia.edu Tue Jan 29 22:18:47 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:18:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Report on Sanity Checker + Exemplars Message-ID: Below is a report on running Sanity Checker on all the TEI P5 exemplar *.odd files in P5/Exemplars (plus tei_odds.odd, from Roma-- where is that in the Subversion repository?). The "not reachable from root" warnings are all fixable, either by adding explicit or perhaps by tweaking the modules. For some reason, "handNote" and "teiCorpus" get defined in most of the generated schemas even when not usable (see #3 and 4 below). Can this be fixed in a global way, so they don't have to be explicitly excluded from each affected exemplar? Under #5 below I list the "X does not exist" diagnostics that Sanity Checker gives for various elements. I take it that these diagnostics are intended to alert the user to customizations that have deleted elements ordinarily used, so the Absolutely Bare schema generates lots of these, all ignorable. In other cases, for example with tei_odds and tei_math, the diagnostics may be erroneous. It looks like Sanity Checker may not be handing non-TEI-namespace definitions properly? I would suggest that as part of this week's cleanup we * fix all the "not reachable from root" errors (except maybe for TEI Tite, where we'll need input from Perry Trolard, see #2 below); * if possible, add some text to Sanity Checker preceding the lists of "In X, Y does not exist" diagnostics to say that these are informational only, not necessarily a sign of problems and then if Sanity Checker is in fact barfing on non-TEI-namespace elements, get that fixed as soon as someone who knows the code can do it. David ======================================================= SANITY CHECKER ISSUES with TEI Customization Exemplars 0. (Sebastian is looking at TEI Lite) 1. TEI Absolutely Bare (tei_bare.odd) Not reachable from root: refState, appInfo, application, handNote, geoDecl Discussion: TEI Bare is intended to have an extremely simple teiHeader, consisting only of /, <publicationStmt>/<p> and <sourceDesc>/<p>. None of above elements are needed. Proposal: delete them all using <elementSpec mode="delete"> 2. TEI Tite (tei_tite.odd) Not reachable from root: tagUsage, namespace, rendition, handNote Discussion: for handNote, see section #3. Others are missing because <tagsDecl> is deleted from 'header' module. Proposal: If we decide to add <tagsDecl> back to TEI Lite, ask Perry Trolard's blessing for adding it here, too. 3. Cases where "handNote not reachable from root" (any ODD that doesn't include 'msdescription' module): TEI Absolutely Bare tei_bare TEI Lite tei_lite TEI Minimal tei_minimal TEI for Linguistic Corpora tei_corpus TEI with Drama tei_drama TEI for Speech Representation tei_speech TEI for authoring ODD tei_odds TEI with SVG tei_svg TEI with MathML tei_math TEI with XInclude tei_xinclude TEI with Dictionaries tei_dictionaries TEI Tite tei_tite 4. Cases where "teiCorpus not reachable from root" (any ODD that doesn't include 'corpus' module): TEI Minimal tei_minimal TEI for Manuscript Description tei_ms TEI with Drama tei_drama TEI for Speech Representation tei_speech TEI for authoring ODD tei_odds TEI with SVG tei_svg TEI with MathML tei_math TEI with XInclude tei_xinclude TEI with Dictionaries tei_dictionaries 5. Customizations that include lists of "does not exist" elements: tei_bare [many header elements, ignorable, intentionally missing] tei_allPlus (egXML: -anyTEI -svg -anyAlien) teilite (figure: -floatingText; list: -headLabel -headItem) tei_odds (egXML: -anyTEI; content: -pattern -define -anySchematron; datatype: -pattern -define -anySchematron) tei_math (formula: -mathml.math) tei_xinclude (fallback: -AnyThing) -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Jan 30 01:58:18 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:58:18 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page In-Reply-To: <479FB93B.7030000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479FB93B.7030000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1201676298.47a0200a6fd62@www.loria.fr> I actually came accross on several occasion. Please do! Laurent Selon Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk>: > Marcus B suggested a change, instantiated at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/, > of showing chapter numbers. > > any problems with that? > > thanks to splendid work by our colleagues > from Italy, GE8 in France, and Marcus B in Taiwan, > the setups for Italian, Chinese and French > are not looking pretty sharp. > > Arianna and Elena might like to consider > the unfortunate effect in the Italian front page... > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Jan 30 02:08:00 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:08:00 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page In-Reply-To: <18335.60309.660099.57121@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <479FB93B.7030000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18335.60309.660099.57121@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <1201676880.47a0225048f2e@www.loria.fr> I definitely like this page (which I use to show the TEI to others, but you are right that there should be a more comprehensive and direct access to the the guidelines right from the main TEI page. Could not we have a specific column below the main blue items with such direct entry points (cf. also example list, maybe project). Think all of the basic resources that a user may want to have a quick access to without bothering of the preliminary bla bla. Laurent Selon Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu>: > SR> Marcus B suggested a change, instantiated at > SR> http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/, of showing > SR> chapter numbers. > SR> > SR> any problems with that? > > I think the change is an improvement, but the change we should be > making is to get rid of this page altogether. It is not supposed to > exist, and, frankly, has no excuse to exist except perhaps that Chris > was too rushed to appropriately fold this page into > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/ in the lead-up to release. > > As the site is right now, to get to read the contents of P5 a user > needs to go to the TEI website (http://www.tei-c.org/) and > > * click on "Guidelines" > > * either select "P5 Guidelines" from the javascript drop-down, or > click on "P5 Guidelines" in the left-side navigation area > > * click on either "Browse the P5 Guidelines" in the left-side > navigation area or "the online version of the P5 Guidelines" in the > main prose (both take you to the same place, although the former > via a redirect or some such) > > * click on "Table of Contents" > > This strikes me as one step too many. When the user clicks on > "Browse" or "online" links, they should be taken straight to the TOC. > The other links that are on what is now called "the front page" > should be on the same page that has the "Browse" and "online" links. > > Conceptually there isn't really any difference between > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/index.xml and > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/index.html > although they are implemented very differently, and of course the > latter is part of the released package. > > > I also find it a bit startling that the editors' names have been > removed from this new "front page", as it was the only place in the > online edition that they were mentioned. Perhaps I'm being a selfish > glory-seeking pig, but I think it appropriate to mention me & Lou > *somewhere* in the P5 hierarchy. > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Jan 30 02:19:38 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:19:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page In-Reply-To: <479FBB89.9090809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <20080129234746.0A03B50045@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> <479FBB89.9090809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1201677578.47a0250abd5f5@www.loria.fr> Yeap. That's the kind of things which we should plan somehow and set priorities. Could we have an overview before our next meeting of the quantity of work involved in this? Laurent Selon Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk>: > James Cummings wrote: > > with all this I18N will the menu of the TEI website be internationalised as > well? Looks really strange to me to have italian or chinese here and there, > but a fixed menu bar across the top in english. > > > I know what you mean. we can get around to that in due course, > but not this week. I have probably exhausted the patience > of my emergency translators in the last few days.... > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Jan 30 02:42:07 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:42:07 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: <479F806D.607@kcl.ac.uk> References: <EB332A8F-F0D6-443B-BA27-090371901F14@loria.fr> <479F806D.607@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <D486029B-5A4E-4338-BC85-86D81AF47351@loria.fr> Dear all, It looks like the majority is on 2-5. Let's state the dates. Can we put 2. April for the one day workshop and 3-4 for the council. Susan: could you launch that with the local organizers and have organizational details be forwarded to the Council? I would also suggest a council Tekon next week (Thursday 7th would be perfect for me)? Who knows how to do this this technically? Best wishes, Laurent Le 29 janv. 08 ? 20:37, Gabriel Bodard a ?crit : > In theory I have no clashes with either, but I'm running a workshop in > Italy from the 14th to the 18th, so the earlier dates would be *much* > more convenient for me. (I'd almost certainly have to leave earlier > than > the 12th.) > > Best, > > Gabriel > > > Laurent Romary a ?crit : >> Dear all, >> In the past few months there's been some discussions related to the >> organisation of our next face to face meeting. It seems there could >> be some possibilitites to have it organized in Galway (Ireland), >> following a proposal by Malte Rehbein. According to the possibilities >> I have received and crossing with my own, this could be done at one >> of the two following periods: >> - 2-5 April >> - 9-12 April >> Could I just check with you how many could definitely not make it? >> >> We would have (as is the "tradition" now) a two-day meeting >> complemented by a one day seminar. >> >> Best wishes, >> Laurent >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) > > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 03:50:03 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:50:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page In-Reply-To: <18335.60309.660099.57121@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <479FB93B.7030000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18335.60309.660099.57121@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47A03A3B.50104@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > I think the change is an improvement, but the change we should be > making is to get rid of this page altogether. I mostly agree; except that these HTML pages are also supposed to be available freestanding for you to consult locally offline. > Conceptually there isn't really any difference between > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/index.xml and > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/index.html > although they are implemented very differently, and of course the > latter is part of the released package. > agreed. Unfortunately, I personally can't work on this task. Someone else needs to step up and work with Chris R on the presentation of the Guidelines in the web site. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 03:55:59 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:55:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page In-Reply-To: <1201677578.47a0250abd5f5@www.loria.fr> References: <20080129234746.0A03B50045@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> <479FBB89.9090809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1201677578.47a0250abd5f5@www.loria.fr> Message-ID: <47A03B9F.1080204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Yeap. That's the kind of things which we should plan somehow and set priorities. > Could we have an overview before our next meeting of the quantity of work > involved in this reorganising the Guidelines hierarchy on the web site is one task, which is probably only one concentrated day's work for someone who is motivated and knowledgeable; performing I18N on it is another. The latter is potentially a huge project. Just translating the menus may be doing a dissservice. I do entirely agree that the outreach agenda demands much more work on the web site. They did a good job last year, but it was left unfinished (lots of stuff still only on legacy server in Oxford, which worries me), and the central Guidelines can be better integrated. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 04:04:04 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:04:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Report on Sanity Checker + Exemplars In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801292156130.23863@Sewell-iMac.local> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801292156130.23863@Sewell-iMac.local> Message-ID: <47A03D84.4090405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > Below is a report on running Sanity Checker on all the TEI P5 > exemplar *.odd files in P5/Exemplars (plus tei_odds.odd, from Roma-- > where is that in the Subversion repository?). its "tei_odds.odd.pre"; it gets mangled in the build process to tei_odds.odd > For some reason, "handNote" and "teiCorpus" get defined in most of the > generated schemas even when not usable (see #3 and 4 below). Can this > be fixed in a global way, so they don't have to be explicitly excluded > from each affected exemplar? > probably not, easily. its not good, but I would incline to explicit removal at this stage. I really hesitate to hack the logic of the ODD processor at this stage in the cycle, as I am sure to break something > In other cases, for example with tei_odds and tei_math, > the diagnostics may be erroneous. It looks like Sanity Checker may not > be handing non-TEI-namespace definitions properly? > yes, thats entirely possible. I may be able to fix that, but not promising > I would suggest that as part of this week's cleanup we > > * fix all the "not reachable from root" errors (except maybe for TEI Tite, > where we'll need input from Perry Trolard, see #2 below); > I think we own Tite, not Perry; I can't see it would upset him or anyone. > * if possible, add some text to Sanity Checker preceding the lists of > "In X, Y does not exist" diagnostics to say that these are informational > only, not necessarily a sign of problems > > and then if Sanity Checker is in fact barfing on non-TEI-namespace elements, > get that fixed as soon as someone who knows the code can do it. > it _may_ be easy :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 05:02:59 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:02:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] persName question In-Reply-To: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47A04B53.2030402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > 'persName' picks up a @key, @ref, and @nymRef from att.naming. > > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-att.naming.html > > @key is defined as data.key = any unicode string > @ref is defined as a single data.pointer = any URI > @nymRef is defined as 1?? data.pointer = any number of URIs. > > I'm in a situation where a project wants to point from something like: > > <persName>Mr and Mrs Smith</persName> > or > <persName>The Smiths</persName> > or > <persName>The Smiths and little johnny</persName> > or > <persName>The Smiths and little johnny and his 3 sisters</persName> > > well, though maybe those last two are stretching it. > > What I'm wondering is why @ref and maybe @key are also one to infinity like > nymRef? > > I assume there is a "not" missing here. On that assumption, my answer is "Homer nods". We already permit e.g. <sp who="#X #Y"><speaker>X and Y</speaker><stage>speaking together</stage><p>gadzooks</p></sp> so I cannot for the life of me see why we shouldn't permit exactly what you want<persName key="#X #Y">The Smiths</persName> > > I'm just trying to remember what the logic was in allowing nymRef to have > more than one URI but having ref only allowed to have one? @nymRef clearly has multiple referents because the same name may have more than one underlying nym e.g. <persName nymRef="#JAS #CWM">James Cummings</persName> > > Wouldn't it be a lot better to allow: > > <persName ref="#SMI01 #SMI02">The Smiths</persName> > > I think this is correct. > Other options open to me as I see it: > a) abuse the whitespace allowed in @key (oops maybe not) > @key is a different question however. The current state of affairs says you can put anything you like in there, so I would not want to change it. You might have a local system which wants you to say e.g. "A&B" rather than "A B" or "A;B" and we shouldn't mess with that. > b) add an entire new attribute (good but I wanted to avoid extra namespaces) > unnecessary and inconsistent > c) use some abusive local encoding format that I then canonicalise to a > pure TEI solution at a later date. > > abominable From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 05:08:24 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:08:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] persName question In-Reply-To: <479F6ECB.8090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F6ECB.8090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47A04C98.5030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Whatever else you do don't abuse semantics.... > > The "mark it simply and canonicalize it later" is OK, but > you'd still want to use a new namespaced attribute, > I reckon, for sanity. > > What about two other cases: > > a) > <persName>John Smith</persName> > > where we are not sure _which_ John it is (we > know of three). In this case <persName ref="#smith1 #smith2"> > would have a different meaning (ie alternation rather than > a list) > > This is a completely different problem. The point of using @ref and @key is that you *have* resolved the target (or claim to). If you want to mark up uncertainty about the resolution then you use the wonders of the certainty module. Can you cite *any* other case where we use multiple values for an attribute to indicate an alternation rather than a concatenation of some kind? I certaintly cannot. > b) > <persName ref="wikipedia.org#smith www.bbc.co.uk/people/smith"> > where there are two useful and distinct pointers to the same person. > > Again, this seems to me an extension beyond what the current attributes are designed to support. Yes it might be nice to use @ref to point to a variorium of further info, but that's not what it's for. If you want to do this, put the other references inside your <person> element. > So does a multiple @ref mean > > #1, #2 > #1 | #2 > #1 & #2 > ? > > it always and only means the first of these > how would we distinguish? > > You _could_ organize your family into > > <listPerson xml:id="Simpsons"> > <listPerson xml:id="ParentSimpsons"> > <person xml:id="Home">...</person> > <person xml:id="Marge">...</person> > </listPerson> > </listPerson xml:id="BabySimpsons"> > <person xml:id="Maggie">...</person> > </listPerson> > </listPerson> > > what would be the problem with that? > the fact that Marge would also occur > in the Bouvier family? > > Yes, exactly. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 05:12:46 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:12:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] persName question In-Reply-To: <20080130000030.AD68D50014@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F6ECB.8090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080129233426.1076450077@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> <479FB9D5.4090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080130000030.AD68D50014@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47A04D9E.1040607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > > I recognise that this is the problem. The choices seem to be: > > a) Leave it how it is, people do whatever and feel the TEI is flawed > b) Leave it how it is, but eventually give some suggestions on how to deal with all the cases you and I have mentioned > c) Change ref (say) to allow multiple URIs but stipulate what this means (alternatives, or multiple people all present, or whatever), and provide guidance for the other possibilities. > This is the right answer. Blatantly. > d) Change it some other way and provide guidance. > > F From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 05:30:20 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:30:20 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Report on Sanity Checker + Exemplars In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801292156130.23863@Sewell-iMac.local> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801292156130.23863@Sewell-iMac.local> Message-ID: <47A051BC.1080506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > Below is a report on running Sanity Checker on all the TEI P5 > exemplar *.odd files in P5/Exemplars (plus tei_odds.odd, from Roma-- > where is that in the Subversion repository?). > It is magically confected, I think. > The "not reachable from root" warnings are all fixable, either by adding > explicit <elementSpec mode="delete"> or perhaps by tweaking the modules. > This is a really useful and helpful list! I suggest you should just go ahead and add the required elementspecs: these schemaspecs were for the most part lashed together to test some particular constellation of modules and are not so lovingly hand crafted that they couldn't be improved on by almost anyone.. > For some reason, "handNote" and "teiCorpus" get defined in most of the > generated schemas even when not usable (see #3 and 4 below). Can this > be fixed in a global way, so they don't have to be explicitly excluded > from each affected exemplar? > > These are module-specific elements -- only available when a specific module is included. Until we revisit the topic of module dependency in ODD (may it be a long time), we just have to handle them specially I think. > Under #5 below I list the "X does not exist" diagnostics that Sanity > Checker gives for various elements. I take it that these diagnostics are > intended to alert the user to customizations that have deleted elements > ordinarily used, so the Absolutely Bare schema generates lots of these, > all ignorable. I may be wrong, but I think these are elements which are referenced explicitly by a content model rather than via a class declaration. We should probably get rid of them longterm, so I would rather leave the diagnostics in. > In other cases, for example with tei_odds and tei_math, > the diagnostics may be erroneous. It looks like Sanity Checker may not > be handing non-TEI-namespace definitions properly? > > That certainly needs more investigation > I would suggest that as part of this week's cleanup we > > * fix all the "not reachable from root" errors (except maybe for TEI Tite, > where we'll need input from Perry Trolard, see #2 below); > > I think he would say his work here is done... > * if possible, add some text to Sanity Checker preceding the lists of > "In X, Y does not exist" diagnostics to say that these are informational > only, not necessarily a sign of problems > > Or that these are warning messages only > and then if Sanity Checker is in fact barfing on non-TEI-namespace elements, > get that fixed as soon as someone who knows the code can do it. > > blatantly! > David > ======================================================= > > SANITY CHECKER ISSUES with TEI Customization Exemplars > > 0. (Sebastian is looking at TEI Lite) > > In a separate message which I see I forgot to cc to anyone else, I've suggested that we should *not* make any changes to TEI Lite which would involve significant changes to the prose of its associated tutorial. The schema should not include elements which are not described in the prose, and if we don't have time to change the prose (which we don't) then we should change the schema accordingly. We can always do a new super improved TEI Lite as a distinct release later (though isn';t that what TEI Tite was supposed to be?) > 1. TEI Absolutely Bare (tei_bare.odd) > > Not reachable from root: refState, appInfo, application, handNote, geoDecl > > Discussion: TEI Bare is intended to have an extremely simple teiHeader, > consisting only of <titleStmt>/<title>, <publicationStmt>/<p> > and <sourceDesc>/<p>. None of above elements are needed. > I think you mean "IS needed"? :-) > Proposal: delete them all using <elementSpec mode="delete"> > Yes: make it so. > 2. TEI Tite (tei_tite.odd) > > Not reachable from root: tagUsage, namespace, rendition, handNote > > Discussion: for handNote, see section #3. Others are missing because > <tagsDecl> is deleted from 'header' module. > > Proposal: If we decide to add <tagsDecl> back to TEI Lite, > ask Perry Trolard's blessing for adding it here, too. > > No. See above. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 05:38:08 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:38:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] persName question In-Reply-To: <47A04C98.5030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F6ECB.8090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A04C98.5030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47A05390.9000205@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou Burnard wrote: > >> So does a multiple @ref mean >> >> #1, #2 >> #1 | #2 >> #1 & #2 >> ? >> >> > it always and only means the first of these I'm happy with your arguments about this. Are others happy to make the change now, or do you want to put it off and think a bit longer? I would mostly suggest that we don't make the change this week; that James puts a summary of the request (make @ref multi-valued) into Sourceforge so that there is a paper trail, but that he makes his customization do it in advance of formal approval. Or maybe its almost a corrigible error and can be just done now. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 05:38:23 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:38:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] persName question In-Reply-To: <47A05390.9000205@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F6ECB.8090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A04C98.5030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A05390.9000205@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47A0539F.2000106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Lou Burnard wrote: >> >>> So does a multiple @ref mean >>> >>> #1, #2 >>> #1 | #2 >>> #1 & #2 >>> ? >>> >>> >> it always and only means the first of these > I'm happy with your arguments about this. > > Are others happy to make the change now, > or do you want to put it off and think a bit > longer? > > I would mostly suggest that we don't make the change this week; > that James puts a summary of the request > (make @ref multi-valued) into Sourceforge so that > there is a paper trail, but that he makes his > customization do it in advance of formal approval. I think this would be Political Correctness Gone Mad. Or a useful exercise, depending on your p.o.v. > > Or maybe its almost a corrigible error and can be just > done now. > My vote is for treating this as a corrigible error. From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Jan 30 05:44:53 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:44:53 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] persName question In-Reply-To: <47A0539F.2000106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F6ECB.8090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A04C98.5030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A05390.9000205@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A0539F.2000106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5F38CAC9-64A0-4915-BE3F-81E1CEECF924@loria.fr> Because of the length of the thread, could I ask James to provide a short summary on the list. If no shouts let's treat it as suggested by Lou. Laurent Le 30 janv. 08 ? 11:38, Lou Burnard a ?crit : > Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> Lou Burnard wrote: >>> >>>> So does a multiple @ref mean >>>> >>>> #1, #2 >>>> #1 | #2 >>>> #1 & #2 >>>> ? >>>> >>>> >>> it always and only means the first of these >> I'm happy with your arguments about this. >> >> Are others happy to make the change now, >> or do you want to put it off and think a bit >> longer? >> >> I would mostly suggest that we don't make the change this week; >> that James puts a summary of the request >> (make @ref multi-valued) into Sourceforge so that >> there is a paper trail, but that he makes his >> customization do it in advance of formal approval. > I think this would be Political Correctness Gone Mad. Or a useful > exercise, depending on your p.o.v. > >> >> Or maybe its almost a corrigible error and can be just >> done now. >> > My vote is for treating this as a corrigible error. > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 05:47:34 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:47:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Report on Sanity Checker + Exemplars In-Reply-To: <47A051BC.1080506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801292156130.23863@Sewell-iMac.local> <47A051BC.1080506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47A055C6.204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> >> For some reason, "handNote" and "teiCorpus" get defined in most of the >> generated schemas even when not usable (see #3 and 4 below). Can this >> be fixed in a global way, so they don't have to be explicitly excluded >> from each affected exemplar? >> >> >> > These are module-specific elements -- only available when a specific > module is included. Until we revisit the topic of module dependency in > ODD (may it be a long time), we just have to handle them specially I think. > corpus and handNote are weird; corpus because its an alternate root, so there is no pattern to remove it from; and handNote becauise its used by two different modules and is therefore in the core. David, if you are happy to do the obvious fixes to the Exemplar odds, let me know when you are done and I will update the Roma on tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk and we can recheck. I think the corpus and handNote "delete-mode" <elementSpec>s will have to be added to hand for the moment. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 06:05:02 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:05:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Report on Sanity Checker + Exemplars In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801292156130.23863@Sewell-iMac.local> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801292156130.23863@Sewell-iMac.local> Message-ID: <47A059DE.1020608@oucs.ox.ac.uk> the "errors" listed by the Sanity checker are perhaps unclear. when it says: In list headLabel does not exist headItem does not exist it means that <list> has an explicit reference to <headLabel> (ie not via a model class), and that you have deleted <headLabel>. So its an error. HOWEVER, in another part of the forest, Roma (usually) recovers and zaps that <headLabel>, and we emerge with a valid schema. So I am not sure what to do. Yes, its an error. No, its just a warning. Can anyone suggest a wording I can put in? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From jawalsh at indiana.edu Wed Jan 30 07:20:36 2008 From: jawalsh at indiana.edu (John A. Walsh) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:20:36 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: <D486029B-5A4E-4338-BC85-86D81AF47351@loria.fr> References: <EB332A8F-F0D6-443B-BA27-090371901F14@loria.fr> <479F806D.607@kcl.ac.uk> <D486029B-5A4E-4338-BC85-86D81AF47351@loria.fr> Message-ID: <0ED3789A-08AC-4B18-929F-1603ED39E04B@indiana.edu> Laurent, I generally set up the telecons through Indiana University, though we have experimented--unsuccessfully--with other, cheaper alternatives in the past. Thursday at our usual time, 12:00UTC would work for me. If most of us can make it, let me know, and I'll set things up. John -- | John A. Walsh | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | www: <http://www.slis.indiana.edu/faculty/jawalsh/> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 <mailto:jawalsh at indiana.edu> On Jan 30, 2008, at 2:42 AM, Laurent Romary wrote: > Dear all, > It looks like the majority is on 2-5. Let's state the dates. Can we > put 2. April for the one day workshop and 3-4 for the council. > Susan: could you launch that with the local organizers and have > organizational details be forwarded to the Council? > > I would also suggest a council Tekon next week (Thursday 7th would > be perfect for me)? Who knows how to do this this technically? > > Best wishes, > Laurent > > Le 29 janv. 08 ? 20:37, Gabriel Bodard a ?crit : > >> In theory I have no clashes with either, but I'm running a workshop >> in >> Italy from the 14th to the 18th, so the earlier dates would be *much* >> more convenient for me. (I'd almost certainly have to leave earlier >> than >> the 12th.) >> >> Best, >> >> Gabriel >> >> >> Laurent Romary a ?crit : >>> Dear all, >>> In the past few months there's been some discussions related to the >>> organisation of our next face to face meeting. It seems there could >>> be some possibilitites to have it organized in Galway (Ireland), >>> following a proposal by Malte Rehbein. According to the >>> possibilities >>> I have received and crossing with my own, this could be done at one >>> of the two following periods: >>> - 2-5 April >>> - 9-12 April >>> Could I just check with you how many could definitely not make it? >>> >>> We would have (as is the "tradition" now) a two-day meeting >>> complemented by a one day seminar. >>> >>> Best wishes, >>> Laurent >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> -- >> Dr Gabriel BODARD >> (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) >> >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL >> Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk >> Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 >> Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 >> >> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ >> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Jan 30 11:15:43 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:15:43 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] on <editorialDecl> Message-ID: <18336.41647.968441.902814@emt.wwp.brown.edu> [My apologies -- I've already been traveling for 2 weeks this year, and as a result am a bit behind on reading Council threads. If this has already been brought up, please just refer me to the recent conversation.] The P5 content model of <editorialDecl> is currently more restrictive than the P4 equivalent in one important way. I think P4 had it right, and that the current model demonstrates arrogance on our part. Furthermore, because reverting to the P4 world view would not break any existing TEI P5 documents, this may well be considered a corrigible error. P5 model: ( model.pLike+ | model.editorialDeclPart+ ) P4 model: ( p+ | ( model.editorialDeclPart+, p* ) ) That is, in P4 we said "you can just have chunks of prose, or, for those things that we can forecast what you might need to talk about, you can use these nifty special-purpose elements ... BTW, if you use both free-prose <p> elements and nifty special-purpose elements, you have to put the special-purpose ones first". This was great. Where the TEI had anticipated the kinds of editorial policies I want to express, I had some useful elements and attributes with controlled vocabularies to express them with. If there was more information to include, I tacked it on in a <p> element and went on my merry way. But now in P5 we say "you can just have chunks of prose, or, if we have forecast everything you might need to talk about, you can use these nifty special-purpose elements ... but, if you have even so much as 1 thing to say that we haven't predicted and created a nifty special-purpose element for, you have to use all prose". So now if I have even so much as 1 bit of editorial policy I wish to express that the TEI has not anticipated, I am forced to make a choice: use TEI's useful special-purpose elements and forgo other information or use all prose and forgo the controlled vocabulary, predictability, etc. of the special-purpose elements. Now, there is a reason for what (to me, and perhaps to you) seems like madness. This change was made in our strive to ensure that users could easily remove elements in their customizations and get valid DTDs out. If a user were to delete all elements in model.editorialDeclPart[1], the P4 content model would be reduced to ( p+ | ( p* ) ) which is valid in RELAX NG, but illegal in DTDs (and in XSD version 1). At the time it was argued that it is an inordinate strain upon a customizing user to have to go in and change the content model of <editorialDecl>, and that it was too difficult to have the DTD generation software do something else. But by now the DTD generation software *does* do something else. When asked to produce a DTD for ( p+ | ( model.editorialDeclPart+, p* ) ) Roma now produces ( p+ | ( _DUMMY_model.editorialDeclPart+, p* ) ) which is perfectly reasonable. (The DUMMY token is not declared, but it is valid in DTDs to refer to an undeclared element in a content model.) So I am hoping the time is ripe to give P5 users the expressive flexibility of P4, here. Notes ----- [1] <correction>, <hyphenation>, <interpretation>, <normalization>, <quotation>, <segmentation>, and <stdVals>. From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Jan 30 11:17:33 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:17:33 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: <0ED3789A-08AC-4B18-929F-1603ED39E04B@indiana.edu> References: <EB332A8F-F0D6-443B-BA27-090371901F14@loria.fr> <479F806D.607@kcl.ac.uk> <D486029B-5A4E-4338-BC85-86D81AF47351@loria.fr> <0ED3789A-08AC-4B18-929F-1603ED39E04B@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <1201709853.10511.1.camel@localhost> We now subscribe as an organisation to the new and improved highspeedconferencing.com The last couple of board meetings have been quite high quality (now that it is no longer free it is much better than it was). Since I'm the account holder I can set it up. Let me know the time. -dan On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 07:20 -0500, John A. Walsh wrote: > Laurent, > > I generally set up the telecons through Indiana University, though we > have experimented--unsuccessfully--with other, cheaper alternatives in > the past. Thursday at our usual time, 12:00UTC would work for me. If > most of us can make it, let me know, and I'll set things up. > > John > -- > | John A. Walsh > | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science > | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 > | www: <http://www.slis.indiana.edu/faculty/jawalsh/> > | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 <mailto:jawalsh at indiana.edu> > > > > On Jan 30, 2008, at 2:42 AM, Laurent Romary wrote: > > > Dear all, > > It looks like the majority is on 2-5. Let's state the dates. Can we > > put 2. April for the one day workshop and 3-4 for the council. > > Susan: could you launch that with the local organizers and have > > organizational details be forwarded to the Council? > > > > I would also suggest a council Tekon next week (Thursday 7th would > > be perfect for me)? Who knows how to do this this technically? > > > > Best wishes, > > Laurent > > > > Le 29 janv. 08 ? 20:37, Gabriel Bodard a ?crit : > > > >> In theory I have no clashes with either, but I'm running a workshop > >> in > >> Italy from the 14th to the 18th, so the earlier dates would be *much* > >> more convenient for me. (I'd almost certainly have to leave earlier > >> than > >> the 12th.) > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Gabriel > >> > >> > >> Laurent Romary a ?crit : > >>> Dear all, > >>> In the past few months there's been some discussions related to the > >>> organisation of our next face to face meeting. It seems there could > >>> be some possibilitites to have it organized in Galway (Ireland), > >>> following a proposal by Malte Rehbein. According to the > >>> possibilities > >>> I have received and crossing with my own, this could be done at one > >>> of the two following periods: > >>> - 2-5 April > >>> - 9-12 April > >>> Could I just check with you how many could definitely not make it? > >>> > >>> We would have (as is the "tradition" now) a two-day meeting > >>> complemented by a one day seminar. > >>> > >>> Best wishes, > >>> Laurent > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> tei-council mailing list > >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > >> > >> -- > >> Dr Gabriel BODARD > >> (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) > >> > >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities > >> King's College London > >> 26-29 Drury Lane > >> London WC2B 5RL > >> Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > >> Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > >> Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 > >> > >> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > >> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tei-council mailing list > >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Jan 30 11:24:10 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:24:10 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page In-Reply-To: <1201676880.47a0225048f2e@www.loria.fr> References: <479FB93B.7030000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18335.60309.660099.57121@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <1201676880.47a0225048f2e@www.loria.fr> Message-ID: <1201710250.10511.8.camel@localhost> I know that Chris Ruotolo and Julia were going to be returning to the overall site soon as there are a couple of outstanding issues (like improving the news serving) that need addressing there, and some new things (like building a proper on-line archive for our internal documents). In getting stuff done last year, we found that putting together workgroups seemed to work better than getting a couple of people to "look into it"--even if the workgroup consisted simply of the people who had earlier volunteered. Maybe the thing to do over the next week or so is think about what kind of things we'd like globally to change on the website (for example, could we improve upon the already improved upon explanation of who and what we are?) and then look into establishing a workgroup to start on the issues, reporting back and asking for help as necessary? -dan On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 08:08 +0100, Laurent Romary wrote: > I definitely like this page (which I use to show the TEI to others, but you are > right that there should be a more comprehensive and direct access to the the > guidelines right from the main TEI page. Could not we have a specific column > below the main blue items with such direct entry points (cf. also example list, > maybe project). > Think all of the basic resources that a user may want to have a quick access to > without bothering of the preliminary bla bla. > Laurent > > > Selon Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu>: > > > SR> Marcus B suggested a change, instantiated at > > SR> http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/, of showing > > SR> chapter numbers. > > SR> > > SR> any problems with that? > > > > I think the change is an improvement, but the change we should be > > making is to get rid of this page altogether. It is not supposed to > > exist, and, frankly, has no excuse to exist except perhaps that Chris > > was too rushed to appropriately fold this page into > > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/ in the lead-up to release. > > > > As the site is right now, to get to read the contents of P5 a user > > needs to go to the TEI website (http://www.tei-c.org/) and > > > > * click on "Guidelines" > > > > * either select "P5 Guidelines" from the javascript drop-down, or > > click on "P5 Guidelines" in the left-side navigation area > > > > * click on either "Browse the P5 Guidelines" in the left-side > > navigation area or "the online version of the P5 Guidelines" in the > > main prose (both take you to the same place, although the former > > via a redirect or some such) > > > > * click on "Table of Contents" > > > > This strikes me as one step too many. When the user clicks on > > "Browse" or "online" links, they should be taken straight to the TOC. > > The other links that are on what is now called "the front page" > > should be on the same page that has the "Browse" and "online" links. > > > > Conceptually there isn't really any difference between > > http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/index.xml and > > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/index.html > > although they are implemented very differently, and of course the > > latter is part of the released package. > > > > > > I also find it a bit startling that the editors' names have been > > removed from this new "front page", as it was the only place in the > > online edition that they were mentioned. Perhaps I'm being a selfish > > glory-seeking pig, but I think it appropriate to mention me & Lou > > *somewhere* in the P5 hierarchy. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 11:30:04 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:30:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page In-Reply-To: <1201710250.10511.8.camel@localhost> References: <479FB93B.7030000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18335.60309.660099.57121@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <1201676880.47a0225048f2e@www.loria.fr> <1201710250.10511.8.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <47A0A60C.8060406@oucs.ox.ac.uk> agreed, work groups great. just to note that the three issues - moving remaining stuff from existing proper online archive at Oxford - looking again at general access pages and access to G'lines - I18N may reasonably be dealt with separately, if desired. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From jawalsh at indiana.edu Wed Jan 30 11:37:55 2008 From: jawalsh at indiana.edu (John A. Walsh) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 11:37:55 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] on <editorialDecl> In-Reply-To: <18336.41647.968441.902814@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <18336.41647.968441.902814@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <D1A978EF-31DA-406C-8935-66733F5F1795@indiana.edu> Hi all, I agree we should allow our semantically rich editorialDecl children to co-exist with regular prose, i.e., <p> tags. John -- | John A. Walsh | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | www: <http://www.slis.indiana.edu/faculty/jawalsh/> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 <mailto:jawalsh at indiana.edu> On Jan 30, 2008, at 11:15 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > [My apologies -- I've already been traveling for 2 weeks this year, > and as a result am a bit behind on reading Council threads. If this > has already been brought up, please just refer me to the recent > conversation.] > > > The P5 content model of <editorialDecl> is currently more restrictive > than the P4 equivalent in one important way. I think P4 had it right, > and that the current model demonstrates arrogance on our part. > Furthermore, because reverting to the P4 world view would not break > any existing TEI P5 documents, this may well be considered a > corrigible error. > > P5 model: ( model.pLike+ | model.editorialDeclPart+ ) > > P4 model: ( p+ | ( model.editorialDeclPart+, p* ) ) > > That is, in P4 we said "you can just have chunks of prose, or, for > those things that we can forecast what you might need to talk about, > you can use these nifty special-purpose elements ... BTW, if you use > both free-prose <p> elements and nifty special-purpose elements, you > have to put the special-purpose ones first". > > This was great. Where the TEI had anticipated the kinds of editorial > policies I want to express, I had some useful elements and attributes > with controlled vocabularies to express them with. If there was more > information to include, I tacked it on in a <p> element and went on > my merry way. > > But now in P5 we say "you can just have chunks of prose, or, if we > have forecast everything you might need to talk about, you can use > these nifty special-purpose elements ... but, if you have even so > much as 1 thing to say that we haven't predicted and created a nifty > special-purpose element for, you have to use all prose". > > So now if I have even so much as 1 bit of editorial policy I wish to > express that the TEI has not anticipated, I am forced to make a > choice: use TEI's useful special-purpose elements and forgo other > information or use all prose and forgo the controlled vocabulary, > predictability, etc. of the special-purpose elements. > > > Now, there is a reason for what (to me, and perhaps to you) seems > like madness. This change was made in our strive to ensure that users > could easily remove elements in their customizations and get valid > DTDs out. If a user were to delete all elements in > model.editorialDeclPart[1], the P4 content model would be reduced to > ( p+ | ( p* ) ) > which is valid in RELAX NG, but illegal in DTDs (and in XSD version > 1). At the time it was argued that it is an inordinate strain upon a > customizing user to have to go in and change the content model of > <editorialDecl>, and that it was too difficult to have the DTD > generation software do something else. > > But by now the DTD generation software *does* do something else. When > asked to produce a DTD for > ( p+ | ( model.editorialDeclPart+, p* ) ) > Roma now produces > ( p+ | ( _DUMMY_model.editorialDeclPart+, p* ) ) > which is perfectly reasonable. (The DUMMY token is not declared, but > it is valid in DTDs to refer to an undeclared element in a > content model.) > > > So I am hoping the time is ripe to give P5 users the expressive > flexibility of P4, here. > > > Notes > ----- > [1] <correction>, <hyphenation>, <interpretation>, <normalization>, > <quotation>, <segmentation>, and <stdVals>. > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 11:47:24 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:47:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] on <editorialDecl> In-Reply-To: <18336.41647.968441.902814@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <18336.41647.968441.902814@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47A0AA1C.90503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Without wanting to get into the discussion of <editorialDecl> per se, I suggest that this is a perfectly straightforward feature request cum bug report, and should be entered in Sourceforge in the normal way, for public view and discussion. It would be interesting to see a feed of new SF requests fed to the web site. my personal feeling is that the experiment with trac last year was not such a success that its worth the extra layer of work, and that we should do everything with Sourceforge's features. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Jan 30 12:14:57 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:14:57 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page In-Reply-To: <47A0A60C.8060406@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479FB93B.7030000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18335.60309.660099.57121@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <1201676880.47a0225048f2e@www.loria.fr> <1201710250.10511.8.camel@localhost> <47A0A60C.8060406@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1201713297.10511.49.camel@localhost> Of course. But I think we should also begin thinking about packaging some of them together: the three here are maybe relatively distinct tasks, but I'd say, for example, that access to the guidelines from the website and tweaking content and presentation and features at the website more generally may be something that could be usefully combined: i.e. that access to the Guidelines (and ultimately the integration of finished I18N efforts) is in fact part of a larger question of the presence and publicity parts of our outreach mandate. Under its expanded mandate, council will likely be bumping into things that we have previously thought of as largely board issues, I suspect. It will take some experimentation I imagine before we find the right mix of roles and division of tasks. -dan On Wed, 2008-01-30 at 16:30 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > agreed, work groups great. just to note that the three > issues > > - moving remaining stuff from existing proper online archive at Oxford > - looking again at general access pages and access to G'lines > - I18N > > may reasonably be dealt with separately, if desired. > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 12:43:05 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 17:43:05 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] guidelines front page In-Reply-To: <1201713297.10511.49.camel@localhost> References: <479FB93B.7030000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18335.60309.660099.57121@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <1201676880.47a0225048f2e@www.loria.fr> <1201710250.10511.8.camel@localhost> <47A0A60C.8060406@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1201713297.10511.49.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <47A0B729.9060909@oucs.ox.ac.uk> a relatively high-level decision about internationalisation needs to be made, I think. I wonder perhaps whether we should not host distinct "TEI en francais", "TEI per i Italiani", "Ein Deutsches TEI" etc sites in some way (possibly using wikis), and not attempt mechanistic translation of the main site menus etc. So leave the main site in English, but ask local experts to contribute to pages of useful hints for their locality, with links back to the main web site. Of course, these sites could be maintained elsewhere if need be, but to have the formally recommended starting point for French etc speakers could be nice. Just thinking aloud, and pondering how maintaining parallel versions of anything is very very hard. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Jan 30 12:56:01 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:56:01 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] on <editorialDecl> In-Reply-To: <47A0AA1C.90503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <18336.41647.968441.902814@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47A0AA1C.90503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1201715761.47a0ba31148b4@www.loria.fr> One less tool would be indeed welcome. Thanks for the proposal, Laurent Selon Sebastian Rahtz <sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk>: > Without wanting to get into the discussion of <editorialDecl> > per se, I suggest that this is a perfectly straightforward feature > request cum bug report, and should be entered in Sourceforge > in the normal way, for public view and discussion. It would > be interesting to see a feed of new SF requests fed to the web > site. > > my personal feeling is that the experiment with trac > last year was not such a success that > its worth the extra layer of work, > and that we should do everything with Sourceforge's > features. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Jan 30 14:17:06 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:17:06 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: encoding scribal corrections] Message-ID: <1201720626.11506.5.camel@localhost> I thought I'd pass this one as it looks to me like it might be a mistake: if we treat gap as the recommended way of encoding del where text is illegible, then gap should presumably be allowed in subst. But since I lost my argument that the whole choice system was not properly organised, I can never tell if things are mistakes, if I'm misunderstanding them, or just sour grapes. -dan -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Alexey LAVRENTEV <Alexei.Lavrentev at ENS-LSH.FR> Reply-To: Alexey LAVRENTEV <Alexei.Lavrentev at ENS-LSH.FR> To: TEI-MS-SIG at listserv.brown.edu Subject: encoding scribal corrections Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:23:51 +0100 Hello, I am having a problem with encoding a particular kind of scribal correction : a piece of unreadable deleted text with an overwritten correction. TEI Guidelines recommend using <gap reason="deleted"/> in case of unreadable deletions (cf. a note in the description of <del> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-del.html), but <gap> is not allowed within <subst>, which otherwise looks like the most appropriate tag for grouping deletions and additions. What is the reason for not allowing <gap/> within <subst> ? Best, Alexei -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jan 30 16:42:42 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:42:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] persName question In-Reply-To: <47A05390.9000205@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F6ECB.8090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A04C98.5030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A05390.9000205@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47A0EF52.2010000@kcl.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Lou Burnard wrote: >>> So does a multiple @ref mean >>> >>> #1, #2 >>> #1 | #2 >>> #1 & #2 >>> ? >>> >>> >> it always and only means the first of these > I'm happy with your arguments about this. > > Are others happy to make the change now, > or do you want to put it off and think a bit > longer? > > I would mostly suggest that we don't make the change this week; > that James puts a summary of the request > (make @ref multi-valued) into Sourceforge so that > there is a paper trail, but that he makes his > customization do it in advance of formal approval. > > Or maybe its almost a corrigible error and can be just > done now. I don't see anything wrong with this (I have read the thread at such a velocity though; I hope I haven't missed anything). However, I would recommend to involve Matthew (Driscoll) in this decision for the obvious reason that he was behind the main development of the whole personography section and because he has probably encountered this practical issue more than us. Arianna -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Jan 30 18:39:49 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:39:49 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: TEI site & the other thing] Message-ID: <1201736389.6649.1.camel@localhost> Apropos the discussion: I had a librarian in our university who was interested in learning more about the TEI: the site seems to have gone over very well. Well done. -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Westwood, Glenna <glenna.westwood at uleth.ca> To: O'Donnell, Dan <daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca> Subject: TEI site & the other thing Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 15:43:21 -0700 Dan, The TEI site looks good. I actually found the site itself quite easy to navigate, which is more than I can say for our library website! I could follow the descriptions and explanations too but I was thinking I may have thought differently, if you'd not explained a bit about it yesterday. Anyway, no constructive criticism - a bit unusual for me! g -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor and Chair, Department of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair and CEO, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Canada Vox: +1 403 329-2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Jan 30 21:53:23 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:53:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Report on Sanity Checker + Exemplars In-Reply-To: <47A055C6.204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801292156130.23863@Sewell-iMac.local> <47A051BC.1080506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A055C6.204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801302143190.453@Sewell-iMac.local> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > David, if you are happy to do the obvious fixes to the > Exemplar odds, let me know when you are done > and I will update the Roma on tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk > and we can recheck. > > I think the corpus and handNote "delete-mode" <elementSpec>s > will have to be added to hand for the moment. Okay, have done, and tested the results, per consensus of your feedback plus Lou's caveat about not restoring tagsDecl to TEI Lite (and therefore TEI Tite). Just a couple of notes: 1. I realized that the complaint about teiCorpus being unreachable was simply owing to its lack in <schemaSpec start=""> in several modules where it might reasonably be expected to be available. As chapter 15.1 of the Guidelines recommends it for a wide variety of anthology-like uses, it really should be available except in stripped-down schemas or ones clearly intended for markup of single texts (ODD Authoring for example). So I added it to several of the exemplars that didn't have it. 2. I added to TEI Tite but did *not* add to teilite.odd the following to remove @rendition from the global attributes (as no <rendition> element is avaiable to point to): <classSpec ident="att.global" type="atts" mode="change" module="tei"> <attList> <attDef ident="rendition" mode="delete"/> </attList> </classSpec> I'd suggest that it be added to teilite.odd as well, since use of @rendition is not documented in the TEI Lite tutorial. As it is, folks using oXygen or another schema-aware editor may be puzzled about why '@rendition' is an available attribute on any element. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Jan 30 23:01:02 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 23:01:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: <0ED3789A-08AC-4B18-929F-1603ED39E04B@indiana.edu> References: <EB332A8F-F0D6-443B-BA27-090371901F14@loria.fr> <479F806D.607@kcl.ac.uk> <D486029B-5A4E-4338-BC85-86D81AF47351@loria.fr> <0ED3789A-08AC-4B18-929F-1603ED39E04B@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.0.99.0801302257470.857@sewell-ibook.local> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, John A. Walsh wrote: > I generally set up the telecons through Indiana University, though we > have experimented--unsuccessfully--with other, cheaper alternatives in > the past. Thursday at our usual time, 12:00UTC would work for me. If > most of us can make it, let me know, and I'll set things up. All of the current Council members are located in western Europe or North America, no? If so, could we move the time back to 14:00 or 15:00 UTC so it's not quite so early for the west-of-Greenwich contingent? (John, you must be an earlier riser than I am...) -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager Electronic Imprint, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400318, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://www.ei.virginia.edu/ From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 31 08:45:10 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:45:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.0.99.0801302257470.857@sewell-ibook.local> References: <EB332A8F-F0D6-443B-BA27-090371901F14@loria.fr> <479F806D.607@kcl.ac.uk> <D486029B-5A4E-4338-BC85-86D81AF47351@loria.fr> <0ED3789A-08AC-4B18-929F-1603ED39E04B@indiana.edu> <alpine.OSX.0.99.0801302257470.857@sewell-ibook.local> Message-ID: <47A1D0E6.1010708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, John A. Walsh wrote: > >> I generally set up the telecons through Indiana University, though we >> have experimented--unsuccessfully--with other, cheaper alternatives in >> the past. Thursday at our usual time, 12:00UTC would work for me. If >> most of us can make it, let me know, and I'll set things up. > > All of the current Council members are located in western Europe or > North America, no? If so, could we move the time back to 14:00 or > 15:00 UTC so it's not quite so early for the west-of-Greenwich > contingent? (John, you must be an earlier riser than I am...) Yes, the 12:00 UTC time was decided because of the range of participants included Christian (and then later Conal) out in the East. The deciding factors now are whether those who are in Central European Time mind how late they have their meeting (say starting at 16:00 or at 17:00) and whether Dan thinks he prefers an 08:00 or 09:00 meeting. www.timeanddate.com suggest that either UTC/GMT 15:00 or 16:00 is best for most of us. See http://tinyurl.com/39bfod for a list with UTC, Calgary, New York, and Berlin lined up next to each other. At the moment, any time is fine for me. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From jawalsh at indiana.edu Thu Jan 31 08:52:26 2008 From: jawalsh at indiana.edu (John A. Walsh) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:52:26 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: <47A1D0E6.1010708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <EB332A8F-F0D6-443B-BA27-090371901F14@loria.fr> <479F806D.607@kcl.ac.uk> <D486029B-5A4E-4338-BC85-86D81AF47351@loria.fr> <0ED3789A-08AC-4B18-929F-1603ED39E04B@indiana.edu> <alpine.OSX.0.99.0801302257470.857@sewell-ibook.local> <47A1D0E6.1010708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5F9DB445-82CA-40B4-8B7B-959229E75994@indiana.edu> Hi All, Although I'd rather sleep in a bit, on Thursdays I teach from 14:30-17:15UTC, so an earlier start time (12:00 or 13:00 UTC) would work for me, but a later might not. John -- | John A. Walsh | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | www: <http://www.slis.indiana.edu/faculty/jawalsh/> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 <mailto:jawalsh at indiana.edu> On Jan 31, 2008, at 8:45 AM, James Cummings wrote: > David Sewell wrote: >> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, John A. Walsh wrote: >> >>> I generally set up the telecons through Indiana University, though >>> we >>> have experimented--unsuccessfully--with other, cheaper >>> alternatives in >>> the past. Thursday at our usual time, 12:00UTC would work for >>> me. If >>> most of us can make it, let me know, and I'll set things up. >> >> All of the current Council members are located in western Europe or >> North America, no? If so, could we move the time back to 14:00 or >> 15:00 UTC so it's not quite so early for the west-of-Greenwich >> contingent? (John, you must be an earlier riser than I am...) > > Yes, the 12:00 UTC time was decided because of the range of > participants > included Christian (and then later Conal) out in the East. > > The deciding factors now are whether those who are in Central > European Time > mind how late they have their meeting (say starting at 16:00 or at > 17:00) > and whether Dan thinks he prefers an 08:00 or 09:00 meeting. > > www.timeanddate.com suggest that either UTC/GMT 15:00 or 16:00 is > best for > most of us. See http://tinyurl.com/39bfod for a list with UTC, > Calgary, > New York, and Berlin lined up next to each other. > > At the moment, any time is fine for me. > > -James > > -- > Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford > James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Jan 31 08:57:36 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:57:36 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: <47A1D0E6.1010708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <EB332A8F-F0D6-443B-BA27-090371901F14@loria.fr> <479F806D.607@kcl.ac.uk> <D486029B-5A4E-4338-BC85-86D81AF47351@loria.fr> <0ED3789A-08AC-4B18-929F-1603ED39E04B@indiana.edu> <alpine.OSX.0.99.0801302257470.857@sewell-ibook.local> <47A1D0E6.1010708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3BDE37F3-1B90-4374-9C43-B14A786059BF@loria.fr> Fine then. Let's decide on next Thursday 15:00 UTC. I suggest to focus on three main points: Scope of council activities Technical activities (bug correction, release plan, examplars, ODD), outreaching, internationalization Global organisation of the council Editorial support, web maintenance Preparation of the Galway meeting (on the basis of the discussion of the previous points) Daniel, can you make it on highspeedconferencing.com? Best wishes, Laurent Le 31 janv. 08 ? 14:45, James Cummings a ?crit : > David Sewell wrote: >> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, John A. Walsh wrote: >> >>> I generally set up the telecons through Indiana University, >>> though we >>> have experimented--unsuccessfully--with other, cheaper >>> alternatives in >>> the past. Thursday at our usual time, 12:00UTC would work for >>> me. If >>> most of us can make it, let me know, and I'll set things up. >> >> All of the current Council members are located in western Europe or >> North America, no? If so, could we move the time back to 14:00 or >> 15:00 UTC so it's not quite so early for the west-of-Greenwich >> contingent? (John, you must be an earlier riser than I am...) > > Yes, the 12:00 UTC time was decided because of the range of > participants > included Christian (and then later Conal) out in the East. > > The deciding factors now are whether those who are in Central > European Time > mind how late they have their meeting (say starting at 16:00 or > at 17:00) > and whether Dan thinks he prefers an 08:00 or 09:00 meeting. > > www.timeanddate.com suggest that either UTC/GMT 15:00 or 16:00 is > best for > most of us. See http://tinyurl.com/39bfod for a list with UTC, > Calgary, > New York, and Berlin lined up next to each other. > > At the moment, any time is fine for me. > > -James > > -- > Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford > James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Jan 31 08:58:41 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:58:41 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: <5F9DB445-82CA-40B4-8B7B-959229E75994@indiana.edu> References: <EB332A8F-F0D6-443B-BA27-090371901F14@loria.fr> <479F806D.607@kcl.ac.uk> <D486029B-5A4E-4338-BC85-86D81AF47351@loria.fr> <0ED3789A-08AC-4B18-929F-1603ED39E04B@indiana.edu> <alpine.OSX.0.99.0801302257470.857@sewell-ibook.local> <47A1D0E6.1010708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <5F9DB445-82CA-40B4-8B7B-959229E75994@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <84469FB2-A7B1-4A0B-9FD0-E24CEA4190D0@loria.fr> Sorry John, I sent my earlier message before seeing this one. Would someone really really have something strong against 13 UTC? Le 31 janv. 08 ? 14:52, John A. Walsh a ?crit : > Hi All, > > Although I'd rather sleep in a bit, on Thursdays I teach from > 14:30-17:15UTC, so an earlier start time (12:00 or 13:00 UTC) would > work for me, but a later might not. > > John > -- > | John A. Walsh > | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science > | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 > | www: <http://www.slis.indiana.edu/faculty/jawalsh/> > | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 <mailto:jawalsh at indiana.edu> > > > > On Jan 31, 2008, at 8:45 AM, James Cummings wrote: > >> David Sewell wrote: >>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, John A. Walsh wrote: >>> >>>> I generally set up the telecons through Indiana University, though >>>> we >>>> have experimented--unsuccessfully--with other, cheaper >>>> alternatives in >>>> the past. Thursday at our usual time, 12:00UTC would work for >>>> me. If >>>> most of us can make it, let me know, and I'll set things up. >>> >>> All of the current Council members are located in western Europe or >>> North America, no? If so, could we move the time back to 14:00 or >>> 15:00 UTC so it's not quite so early for the west-of-Greenwich >>> contingent? (John, you must be an earlier riser than I am...) >> >> Yes, the 12:00 UTC time was decided because of the range of >> participants >> included Christian (and then later Conal) out in the East. >> >> The deciding factors now are whether those who are in Central >> European Time >> mind how late they have their meeting (say starting at 16:00 or at >> 17:00) >> and whether Dan thinks he prefers an 08:00 or 09:00 meeting. >> >> www.timeanddate.com suggest that either UTC/GMT 15:00 or 16:00 is >> best for >> most of us. See http://tinyurl.com/39bfod for a list with UTC, >> Calgary, >> New York, and Berlin lined up next to each other. >> >> At the moment, any time is fine for me. >> >> -James >> >> -- >> Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford >> James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From pboot at xs4all.nl Thu Jan 31 09:12:28 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:12:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting Message-ID: <21810.194.171.119.28.1201788748.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Laurent, as I mailed you yesterday I can't make it before 17:30 UTC (have to attend a training session). But I understand that at a weeks's notice it may impossible to find a time that's agreeable to everyone. I'll mail some input. Peter > Sorry John, I sent my earlier message before seeing this one. Would > someone really really have something strong against 13 UTC? > > > Le 31 janv. 08 ? 14:52, John A. Walsh a ?crit : > >> Hi All, >> >> Although I'd rather sleep in a bit, on Thursdays I teach from >> 14:30-17:15UTC, so an earlier start time (12:00 or 13:00 UTC) would >> work for me, but a later might not. >> >> John >> -- >> | John A. Walsh >> | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science >> | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 >> | www: <http://www.slis.indiana.edu/faculty/jawalsh/> >> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 <mailto:jawalsh at indiana.edu> >> >> >> >> On Jan 31, 2008, at 8:45 AM, James Cummings wrote: >> >>> David Sewell wrote: >>>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, John A. Walsh wrote: >>>> >>>>> I generally set up the telecons through Indiana University, though >>>>> we >>>>> have experimented--unsuccessfully--with other, cheaper >>>>> alternatives in >>>>> the past. Thursday at our usual time, 12:00UTC would work for >>>>> me. If >>>>> most of us can make it, let me know, and I'll set things up. >>>> >>>> All of the current Council members are located in western Europe or >>>> North America, no? If so, could we move the time back to 14:00 or >>>> 15:00 UTC so it's not quite so early for the west-of-Greenwich >>>> contingent? (John, you must be an earlier riser than I am...) >>> >>> Yes, the 12:00 UTC time was decided because of the range of >>> participants >>> included Christian (and then later Conal) out in the East. >>> >>> The deciding factors now are whether those who are in Central >>> European Time >>> mind how late they have their meeting (say starting at 16:00 or at >>> 17:00) >>> and whether Dan thinks he prefers an 08:00 or 09:00 meeting. >>> >>> www.timeanddate.com suggest that either UTC/GMT 15:00 or 16:00 is >>> best for >>> most of us. See http://tinyurl.com/39bfod for a list with UTC, >>> Calgary, >>> New York, and Berlin lined up next to each other. >>> >>> At the moment, any time is fine for me. >>> >>> -James >>> >>> -- >>> Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford >>> James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Jan 31 10:59:34 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:59:34 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: <21810.194.171.119.28.1201788748.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <21810.194.171.119.28.1201788748.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1201795174.26193.7.camel@odonned-eng06> That's 6am for me :( On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 15:12 +0100, Peter Boot wrote: > Laurent, as I mailed you yesterday I can't make it before 17:30 UTC (have > to attend a training session). But I understand that at a weeks's notice > it may impossible to find a time that's agreeable to everyone. I'll mail > some input. > > Peter > > > Sorry John, I sent my earlier message before seeing this one. Would > > someone really really have something strong against 13 UTC? > > > > > > Le 31 janv. 08 ? 14:52, John A. Walsh a ?crit : > > > >> Hi All, > >> > >> Although I'd rather sleep in a bit, on Thursdays I teach from > >> 14:30-17:15UTC, so an earlier start time (12:00 or 13:00 UTC) would > >> work for me, but a later might not. > >> > >> John > >> -- > >> | John A. Walsh > >> | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science > >> | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 > >> | www: <http://www.slis.indiana.edu/faculty/jawalsh/> > >> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 <mailto:jawalsh at indiana.edu> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Jan 31, 2008, at 8:45 AM, James Cummings wrote: > >> > >>> David Sewell wrote: > >>>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, John A. Walsh wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I generally set up the telecons through Indiana University, though > >>>>> we > >>>>> have experimented--unsuccessfully--with other, cheaper > >>>>> alternatives in > >>>>> the past. Thursday at our usual time, 12:00UTC would work for > >>>>> me. If > >>>>> most of us can make it, let me know, and I'll set things up. > >>>> > >>>> All of the current Council members are located in western Europe or > >>>> North America, no? If so, could we move the time back to 14:00 or > >>>> 15:00 UTC so it's not quite so early for the west-of-Greenwich > >>>> contingent? (John, you must be an earlier riser than I am...) > >>> > >>> Yes, the 12:00 UTC time was decided because of the range of > >>> participants > >>> included Christian (and then later Conal) out in the East. > >>> > >>> The deciding factors now are whether those who are in Central > >>> European Time > >>> mind how late they have their meeting (say starting at 16:00 or at > >>> 17:00) > >>> and whether Dan thinks he prefers an 08:00 or 09:00 meeting. > >>> > >>> www.timeanddate.com suggest that either UTC/GMT 15:00 or 16:00 is > >>> best for > >>> most of us. See http://tinyurl.com/39bfod for a list with UTC, > >>> Calgary, > >>> New York, and Berlin lined up next to each other. > >>> > >>> At the moment, any time is fine for me. > >>> > >>> -James > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford > >>> James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> tei-council mailing list > >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tei-council mailing list > >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative <http://www.tei-c.org/> Director, Digital Medievalist Project <http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/> Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Jan 31 11:01:49 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 09:01:49 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: <47A1D0E6.1010708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <EB332A8F-F0D6-443B-BA27-090371901F14@loria.fr> <479F806D.607@kcl.ac.uk> <D486029B-5A4E-4338-BC85-86D81AF47351@loria.fr> <0ED3789A-08AC-4B18-929F-1603ED39E04B@indiana.edu> <alpine.OSX.0.99.0801302257470.857@sewell-ibook.local> <47A1D0E6.1010708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1201795309.26193.9.camel@odonned-eng06> Unfortunately, if we are meeting on Thursday, I'm in the same boat as John W: I teach from 1625 UTC through 1750. So 6am it is, I guess! -dan On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 13:45 +0000, James Cummings wrote: > David Sewell wrote: > > On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, John A. Walsh wrote: > > > >> I generally set up the telecons through Indiana University, though we > >> have experimented--unsuccessfully--with other, cheaper alternatives in > >> the past. Thursday at our usual time, 12:00UTC would work for me. If > >> most of us can make it, let me know, and I'll set things up. > > > > All of the current Council members are located in western Europe or > > North America, no? If so, could we move the time back to 14:00 or > > 15:00 UTC so it's not quite so early for the west-of-Greenwich > > contingent? (John, you must be an earlier riser than I am...) > > Yes, the 12:00 UTC time was decided because of the range of participants > included Christian (and then later Conal) out in the East. > > The deciding factors now are whether those who are in Central European Time > mind how late they have their meeting (say starting at 16:00 or at 17:00) > and whether Dan thinks he prefers an 08:00 or 09:00 meeting. > > www.timeanddate.com suggest that either UTC/GMT 15:00 or 16:00 is best for > most of us. See http://tinyurl.com/39bfod for a list with UTC, Calgary, > New York, and Berlin lined up next to each other. > > At the moment, any time is fine for me. > > -James > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative <http://www.tei-c.org/> Director, Digital Medievalist Project <http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/> Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 31 12:32:11 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:32:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 16 - Linking, Segmentation, and Alignment In-Reply-To: <479F2BFA.2090007@yahoo.com> References: <479F2BFA.2090007@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47A2061B.6020100@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > * > > 16.1.1 Pointers and Links* > > For the lines, "...elements pointed to or linked by this *simple > method* must be identifiable using the global <att>xml:id</att> > attribute. This implies that *they **must be present in the same > document, *and that they must bear unique <att>xml:id</att> values." > While I see that the chapter later covers external references (as the > next sentence also indicates), I don't see how any "simple method" had > been introduced or implied by the preceding. If "simple method" was > meant to refer to the type of pointers which only consist of the hash > mark, I think that ought to be made specific, or otherwise those > familiar with the fact that pointers can point to external documents > might be led to think that <link> doesn't allow external references. Yes, this para has been inadequately updated. I've revised it somewhat. > > *16.2.4.3 left(pointer) and right(pointer) > * > For this line, "Because most pointer schemes return nodes or ranges > rather than points, the following description lists the behavior of > left() and right() for all three types of possible location that might > result from interpreting its argument.", I am confused, especially > since the list that follows has four types including a point. > I'm confused too. I don't see what the "Because" is doing there, so I've removed it. As you can probably tell this chapter needs quite some stylistic improvement... > *16.2.4.4 range(pointer1, pointer2)* > > Should the list here also include the case of a pointer resolving to a > node set? Probably, but I am not at all sure what it would mean! > > *16.2.4.5 string-range(pointer, offset [, length]) > * > I made a few changes here. If I am wrong here, I believe the use of > string-range in 16.4.2 Alignment of Parallel Texts needs to be changed > (more than the slight amount I changed it). Your changes look OK to me. > > *16.2.5 Canonical References > * > In the perhaps impossible event that someone would need to find the > text, %24 , there would be no way to do it? > You mean because there's no escape mechanism? I assume you'd do it by replacing the % by whatever its decimal value is. But I really cannot take this problem very seriously... > *16.3 Blocks, Segments, and Anchors > * > For the line, "it may be more useful to use the <gi>s</gi> element for > this purpose, since this means that the <gi>seg</gi> element can then > be used to mark both features within s-units and segments composed of > s-units", is this really true? Couldn't <seg> be used for encoding a > level higher than, lower than, and at the sentence level? Perhaps this > should instead include an example of how <s> would free one up to use > the @type attribute in a more detailed way? The point is that <s> is available for end-to-end segmentation only, and once you've done that, you can use <seg> to group or fragment your <s> units more or less ad lib. You could do it all with <seg> of course, but <s> is specially provided for this purpose. > > Since the examples list <seg> being used for a level higher than <s>, > why does the definition at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-seg.html state > it contains "any arbitrary *phrase-level *unit of text"? Hmm, yes, this is a mistake. Its content model permits inter-level elements as well. Corrected. > > For the line, "The <gi>seg</gi> element has the same content as a > paragraph in prose: it can therefore be used to group together > consecutive sequences of <ident type="class">model.inter</ident> class > elements, such as lists, quotations, notes, stage directions, etc.", > if <seg> can include inter elements, doesn't that make <seg> a "chunk" > element according to > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ST.html which means > it can appear within divisions and the like? > No. It's a member of model.segLike, which is a subclass of model.phrase. The fact that it can contain inter level elements doesn't affect where it can itself occur. > *16.4.2 Alignment of Parallel Texts > * > Sorry, but I don't follow this line, "Note that use of the <gi>ab</gi> > element allows us to mark up the orthographic sentences in both > languages independently of the alignment". If <s> can work at being a > sentence for either language, why can't <p>? <p> has additional semantics -- it marks a paragraph -- sio wouldnt be appropriate here. I think the point is that the alignment can be done at the <ab> level when, as here, the sentences are not in the same order, but I agree it's not clear. > > *16.6 Identical Elements and Virtual Copies > * > Might reference be made here of how @copyOf compares to XInclude, as > per the information in section 16.9? Possibly, but I have to admit that I am not sure what that comparison would reveal... > > *16.8 Alternation* > > 1) Might it be mentioned here that @exclude does not need (if it > indeed doesn't, as would seem logical) to be on both elements, as all > of the examples seem to have it? > What do you mean by "both" elements? It is just coincidence that there are two elements in each example here -- the exclude attribute points to (at least one) other element which its parent excludes. > 2) For the examples connected by "This is interpreted to mean that > either the first or the third <gi>u</gi> element tag appears, and is > thus equivalent to just the alternation of those two tags", I'm > confused as to why one wouldn't wish to just have the simpler example > in the first place. My apologies if this is a dumb question... Dumb questions are good ("why has the emperor no clothes?" eg) but in this particular case, we are trying to show the full generality of the mechanism, which may sometimes involve going all round the houses. As here. > > 3) For the example, <seg exclude="#lee2" xml:id="we2" type="word">We</seg> > ...are both @exclude and <alt/> used in the example since there is no > @mode="excl" set on the first two <alt/>'s, whereas if they had them, > there would be no need for the @exclude attributes? Why are the first > two <alt/>'s present at all? > The first two <alt>s are there to recap the knowledge already discussed -- that the word is either Lee or We (and yes, you could do this with @mode=excl but that would be inconsistent with the presentation earlier I think) The other two <alt>s are there to show the further consequences of one or other of the first two <alt> pair members being selected. But this particular example has always made my head hurt.... > Given that it was several pages back, I think the line from the > reference for <alt/> at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-alt.html , "If > mode is incl each weight states the probability that the corresponding > alternative occurs given that at least one of the other alternatives > occurs." might bear repeating here for the sake of this and the next > example, especially since this line was only present within the > definition and not the main flow of the tutorial. Good idea. Have put it in. My head still hurts tho. > > I've been really trying to grapple with this and the following > example, but I haven't fully grasped it. If, for example, the weight > is .5 for the <alt/> with targets #we2 and #fun2, doesn't this imply > that the probability of fun being present when "when occurs" is 50% > and not 40% as the text states? (though I understand why it states 40% > also)... See above... > > *16.9.2 Overview of XInclude > * > 1) I guess the line in note 66, "The version on which this text is > based on is the W3C Recommendation dated 20 December 2004" is still > current? > Yes. I've removed one of the "on"s though. > 2) I deleted the sentence "Fallback content or resources can be > specified in case of a failure to fetch the requested resource." > because it seems redundant with the discussion a paragraph later of > the <xi:fallback> element. Fine by me. > > 3) I changed the reference to IURI to IRI, but left the comment asking > whether it should be explained since IRI is only mentioned once and is > not mentioned elsewhere in the docs. > I've corrected it back to URI -- it may be that we need to talk about IRIs as distinct from URIs somewhere, but in this context it is simply confusing. > > *16.9.5 Including Text or XML Fragments* > > Not sure if you wanted to introduce what the components within range() > mean when having a pattern like in the docs: > range(/1/2/1.0,/1/2/11.1) . Also, range-to() wasn't introduced earlier. > All of this section needs rewriting for clarity and comprehensiveness, in my view. But not by tomorrow, I'm afraid. From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Jan 31 12:39:10 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:39:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines: "code point" vs. "codepoint" vs. "code-point" Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801311219010.11118@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> All, I've been doing some cleanup for consistency of usages in the Guidelines. Almost all of the decisions are straightforward and noncontroversial, but there's one that needs input from everyone: the spelling to use for "code point" in the sense of a value in a character set. There are three possible choices: 1. codepoint (noun and adjective) 2. code point (n.) but code-point (adj.) [contrast "a code point" vs. "a code-point value"] 3. code-point (n. and adj.) The Guidelines are wildly inconsistent. Chapter 5, "Representation of Non-standard Characters and Glyphs", uses "codepoint" throughout. In the other chapter where the term occurs a lot, chapter vi "Languages and Character Sets", "code point" appears 11 times and "code-point" 45 times (mostly as a noun), but no "codepoint". "Code point" for the noun form seems prevalent in technical usage. That is the form given in the Unicode Consortium's online glossary (http://unicode.org/glossary/#C). One problem with treating it as two words, though, is that the English convention of hyphenating compounds in adjectival use ("a code-point value") is not always easy to follow, i.e. some uses are ambiguous between noun and adjective function. Does anyone have strong feelings one way or another about this? If the Guidelines were a static document I'd lean toward #2, but it's easier to maintain documentation if you don't have to apply grammatical criteria. >From that point of view "codepoint" is the simplest solution. I'd like to commit my changes before Sebastian's deadline of 1 Feb, but I won't touch codepoint/code-point/code point without some feedback. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 31 12:46:57 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:46:57 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines: "code point" vs. "codepoint" vs. "code-point" In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801311219010.11118@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801311219010.11118@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: <47A20991.4060207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I own up to having made WD consistently use "codepoint", that being my preferred solution on grounds of least effort. On the other hand, a few minutes googling suggests that "code point" is indeed the preferred usage in Unicode documentation and wikipedia and other reputable websites. I don't think we have many cases of its being used adjectivally and could probably live with their being unhyphenated. L David Sewell wrote: > All, > > I've been doing some cleanup for consistency of usages in the > Guidelines. Almost all of the decisions are straightforward and > noncontroversial, but there's one that needs input from everyone: the > spelling to use for "code point" in the sense of a value in a character > set. > > There are three possible choices: > > 1. codepoint (noun and adjective) > 2. code point (n.) but code-point (adj.) > [contrast "a code point" vs. "a code-point value"] > 3. code-point (n. and adj.) > > The Guidelines are wildly inconsistent. Chapter 5, "Representation of > Non-standard Characters and Glyphs", uses "codepoint" throughout. > In the other chapter where the term occurs a lot, chapter vi "Languages > and Character Sets", "code point" appears 11 times and "code-point" 45 > times (mostly as a noun), but no "codepoint". > > "Code point" for the noun form seems prevalent in technical usage. That > is the form given in the Unicode Consortium's online glossary > (http://unicode.org/glossary/#C). One problem with treating it as two > words, though, is that the English convention of hyphenating compounds > in adjectival use ("a code-point value") is not always easy to follow, > i.e. some uses are ambiguous between noun and adjective function. > > Does anyone have strong feelings one way or another about this? If the > Guidelines were a static document I'd lean toward #2, but it's easier to > maintain documentation if you don't have to apply grammatical criteria. > >From that point of view "codepoint" is the simplest solution. > > I'd like to commit my changes before Sebastian's deadline of 1 Feb, but > I won't touch codepoint/code-point/code point without some feedback. > > David > > > From elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk Thu Jan 31 12:48:34 2008 From: elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk (Elena Pierazzo) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:48:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Our next to face meeting In-Reply-To: <21810.194.171.119.28.1201788748.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <21810.194.171.119.28.1201788748.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <47A209F2.6080705@kcl.ac.uk> Deal all, sorry for not saying something earlier, but I can't make the phone meeting at all: from the 2nd to the 18th of February I'll be on sickness leave. Sorry for that, I hope I'll have the opportunity to catch up later. Elena Peter Boot wrote: > Laurent, as I mailed you yesterday I can't make it before 17:30 UTC (have > to attend a training session). But I understand that at a weeks's notice > it may impossible to find a time that's agreeable to everyone. I'll mail > some input. > > Peter > > >> Sorry John, I sent my earlier message before seeing this one. Would >> someone really really have something strong against 13 UTC? >> >> >> Le 31 janv. 08 ? 14:52, John A. Walsh a ?crit : >> >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Although I'd rather sleep in a bit, on Thursdays I teach from >>> 14:30-17:15UTC, so an earlier start time (12:00 or 13:00 UTC) would >>> work for me, but a later might not. >>> >>> John >>> -- >>> | John A. Walsh >>> | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science >>> | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 >>> | www: <http://www.slis.indiana.edu/faculty/jawalsh/> >>> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 <mailto:jawalsh at indiana.edu> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 31, 2008, at 8:45 AM, James Cummings wrote: >>> >>> >>>> David Sewell wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, John A. Walsh wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I generally set up the telecons through Indiana University, though >>>>>> we >>>>>> have experimented--unsuccessfully--with other, cheaper >>>>>> alternatives in >>>>>> the past. Thursday at our usual time, 12:00UTC would work for >>>>>> me. If >>>>>> most of us can make it, let me know, and I'll set things up. >>>>>> >>>>> All of the current Council members are located in western Europe or >>>>> North America, no? If so, could we move the time back to 14:00 or >>>>> 15:00 UTC so it's not quite so early for the west-of-Greenwich >>>>> contingent? (John, you must be an earlier riser than I am...) >>>>> >>>> Yes, the 12:00 UTC time was decided because of the range of >>>> participants >>>> included Christian (and then later Conal) out in the East. >>>> >>>> The deciding factors now are whether those who are in Central >>>> European Time >>>> mind how late they have their meeting (say starting at 16:00 or at >>>> 17:00) >>>> and whether Dan thinks he prefers an 08:00 or 09:00 meeting. >>>> >>>> www.timeanddate.com suggest that either UTC/GMT 15:00 or 16:00 is >>>> best for >>>> most of us. See http://tinyurl.com/39bfod for a list with UTC, >>>> Calgary, >>>> New York, and Berlin lined up next to each other. >>>> >>>> At the moment, any time is fine for me. >>>> >>>> -James >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford >>>> James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> tei-council mailing list >>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- Dr Elena Pierazzo Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Jan 31 12:50:04 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 10:50:04 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines: "code point" vs. "codepoint" vs. "code-point" In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801311219010.11118@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801311219010.11118@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: <1201801804.26722.1.camel@odonned-eng06> There's a discussion of this very issue here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-qt-comments/2003Oct/0147.html Unfortunately they hate code-point which would have been my solution if we don't want to go with #2. Why not #1 codepoint everywhere then? It shows up all the time, albeit mostly in titles, code, and filenames; it allows us to be consistent quickly; and we can always return to the issue if we get hatemail (or should that be hate mail) -dan On Thu, 2008-01-31 at 12:39 -0500, David Sewell wrote: > All, > > I've been doing some cleanup for consistency of usages in the > Guidelines. Almost all of the decisions are straightforward and > noncontroversial, but there's one that needs input from everyone: the > spelling to use for "code point" in the sense of a value in a character > set. > > There are three possible choices: > > 1. codepoint (noun and adjective) > 2. code point (n.) but code-point (adj.) > [contrast "a code point" vs. "a code-point value"] > 3. code-point (n. and adj.) > > The Guidelines are wildly inconsistent. Chapter 5, "Representation of > Non-standard Characters and Glyphs", uses "codepoint" throughout. > In the other chapter where the term occurs a lot, chapter vi "Languages > and Character Sets", "code point" appears 11 times and "code-point" 45 > times (mostly as a noun), but no "codepoint". > > "Code point" for the noun form seems prevalent in technical usage. That > is the form given in the Unicode Consortium's online glossary > (http://unicode.org/glossary/#C). One problem with treating it as two > words, though, is that the English convention of hyphenating compounds > in adjectival use ("a code-point value") is not always easy to follow, > i.e. some uses are ambiguous between noun and adjective function. > > Does anyone have strong feelings one way or another about this? If the > Guidelines were a static document I'd lean toward #2, but it's easier to > maintain documentation if you don't have to apply grammatical criteria. > >From that point of view "codepoint" is the simplest solution. > > I'd like to commit my changes before Sebastian's deadline of 1 Feb, but > I won't touch codepoint/code-point/code point without some feedback. > > David > > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative <http://www.tei-c.org/> Director, Digital Medievalist Project <http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/> Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 31 13:41:24 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 18:41:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines: "code point" vs. "codepoint" vs. "code-point" In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801311219010.11118@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801311219010.11118@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: <47A21654.7020108@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I'd choose "code point", going to adjectival "code-point" by hand if deemed necessary. From a desire to avoid new words where not needed, I think. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 31 14:20:37 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:20:37 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 17 - Simple Analytic Mechanisms In-Reply-To: <47A021A9.7080206@yahoo.com> References: <47A021A9.7080206@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47A21F85.30308@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > Have you considered giving the chapters a reordering? I'd think (as > Lou indicated as well) that chapters 22 and 23 really might be put > together in a block with the first core chapters to emphasize their > general and basic nature and maybe some other changes. > > Here's my own suggestion: > > *Dealing with the basic infrastructure: > * > #1 The TEI Infrastructure > #2 The TEI Header > #3 Elements Available in All TEI Documents > #4 Default Text Structure > #15 Corpora and Language Corpora /<Might go under genres, but I think > it deals enough with a fundamental infrastructure issue to merit going > here>/ > #5 Representation of Non-standard Characters and Glyphs > #13 Names, Dates, People, and Places > #22 Documentation Elements > #23 Using the TEI > > *Special Features:* > > #16 Linking, Segmentation > #14 Tables, Formulae, and Graphics > #19 Graphs, Networks, and Trees > #20 Non-hierarchical Structures > * > Meta-information:* > > #21 Certainty and Responsibility > #17 Simple Analytic Mechanisms > #18 Feature Structures > * > Special Genres:* > > #6 Verse > #7 Performance Texts > #8 Transcriptions of Speech > #9 Dictionaries > > * Ancient Texts Genre: (though these might perhaps also go under > Meta-information) > * #10 Manuscript Description > #11 Representation of Primary Sources > #12 Critical Apparatus The current order is what we arrived at after quite a bit of debate: Two factors prevailed in establishing the current order though -- we didn't want to introduce a two level hierarchy into the body of the text (4 levels of subdivision is already too many...) -- and we didn't really expect many readers to begin at the beginning, go on to the end, and then stop. It's a reference manual, for dipping into. That said, there is a clear progression from general to increasingly specific topic matter from beginning to end, with the USE chapter as a coda. However, your proposed re-ordering is certainly feasible -- may I suggest that you post it as a feature request on source forge for further discussion? > > > *17.1 Linguistic Segment Categories > * > 1) Out of curiosity, anyone actually go down to the phonemic > representation level in TEI? If so, why no tag? > I'm not aware of anyone having done this. Such a segmentation would of course interfere with other levels of linguistic analysis (there is some reference to this problem in the chapter on transcribed speech if I remember rightly). > 2) When the docs state, "the <gi>c</gi> element can contain only plain > text, and will often contain only a single character", is this > because a combining diacritic and its base form might be allowable > together (as it presumably should be, especially since the guidelines > recommend using these over precombined forms)? If so, might the > reference stating "Should only contain a single character or an entity > that represents a single character" be emended to refer to such > combination characters as well? > I've made the descriptions consistent. > 3) One example here has clauses of type "finite-declarative" and > "declarative-finite". Any problem with that? > Err, not as far as I know. They mean different things. > 4) Might the line, > > "The lemma attribute may be used to specify the lemma, that is the > head- or base- form of an inflected verb or noun, for example" > > be changed to: > > "The lemma attribute may be used to specify the lemma, that is the > head- or base- form of an inflected form (or of a non-standard form). > For example," > > In our texts, we plan to use <w lemma> to indicate what the standard > form of a non-standard transliteration is... > I am not sure what you mean by "non-standard" here, but lemmatization is definitely not the same thing as regularization. Using the @lemma attribute to regularise nonstandard orthography sounds like attribute-abuse to me... you should be using the <reg> element for this purpose. > *17.3 Spans and Interpretations* > > An example states "other spans identified by DTL here". Who is DTL? > Should there be a @resp on the <spanGrp>? > D. Terence Langendoen, who originally drafted much of this chapter. And yes, there should! > *17.4 Linguistic Annotation > * > 1) Is whitespace inevitable between <w ana="#NN1">victim</w> and <w > ana="#POS">'s</w> as there was whitespace in the CLAWS output? If so, > do you want to add mention of the shortcoming that this adds? This is quite a headache (and is commented on elsewhere I think); mentioning it again here would distract from the main point of discussion which is the analysis codes themselves. > > 2) Why does the line, "However, analysis into phrase and clause > elements can be superimposed on the word and morpheme tagging in the > preceding illustration." begin with "However"? Might this be clarified? > Stylistic tic. I have deleted it. > 3) I changed the line "*These mechanisms all depend to a greater or > lesser degree *on the ability to associate a unique identifier with > any element in a TEI-conformant text, and then to specify that > identifier as the target of a pointing element of some kind." to > "*Many of these mechanisms will depend *on the ability to associate a > unique identifier with any element in a TEI-conformant text, and then > to specify that identifier as the target of a pointing element of some > kind." since XPointer doesn't necessitate use of identifiers at all. Actually, since we are using XPointer, the whole sentence needs revision to indicate that other kinds of pointer would work too. > > For note 69, why is it required that the whole text be segmented into > <s> if it is segmented? Because that's how <s> is defined. It provides end-to-end segmentation of the whole text. That's what it's for. From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Jan 31 15:47:15 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:47:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines: "code point" vs. "codepoint" vs. "code-point" In-Reply-To: <47A21654.7020108@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801311219010.11118@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47A21654.7020108@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801311544480.14472@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Okay, that makes 2 votes to 1 for "code point" (pushing Lou off the fence to land on that side, anyway). Will go that route and update. On Thu, 31 Jan 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'd choose "code point", going to adjectival "code-point" by hand > if deemed necessary. From a desire to avoid new words where not > needed, I think. > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 31 17:33:03 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:33:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 22 - Documentation Elements In-Reply-To: <47A07930.5010105@yahoo.com> References: <47A07930.5010105@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47A24C9F.8010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > In the note on the egXML reference page, "the content must however be > well formed XML: where this is not the case, the more general <eg> > element should be used in preference.", I think (besides adding a > hyphen to "well formed", the following could be more exact, since the > example need not have a root element: "the content must however be *a > well-formed XML fragment or document*: where this is not the case, the > more general <eg> element should be used in preference.". OK. > > Likewise with the definition, " (example of XML) contains a single > well-formed XML example demonstrating the use of some XML element or > attribute, in which the <egXML> element itself functions as the root > element." being changed to " (example of XML) contains a single > *well-formed XML fragment or document *example demonstrating the use > of some XML element or attribute, in which the <egXML> element itself > functions as the root element." > I removed "or document". > I added indication that egXML could not only be well-formed, but also > a well-formed fragment (i.e., not having a root element is ok). > this is implicit in the statement that the egXML element is the root element surely? > I presumed that the namespaces for egXML and Relax NG were added by > this chapter's module and noted the docs as such. No, they are not defined by this module. > > Has anyone made a Schema to ODD converter, btw? > Not that I know of: such an exercise would in general be difficult, since ODD has more information in it than most schema languages. > *22.1.1 Phrase Level Terms > * > Maybe the xml:space definition (not in source) could be changed from: > > "signals an intention that white space should be preserved by > applications" > > to > > "signals an intention that white space should be preserved by > applications*, such as XSL processors*" > > in order to give a salient example? > well, possibly. but we dont want to give the impression that this applies only to XSL processors, > *22.1.2 Elements and Attribute Descriptions > * > Couldn't a <specDesc> be made to use an IDREF type attribute > optionally to facilitate vaildation? How about <memberOf>, <classSpec > ident>, etc.? I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. We validate using the @ident / @key attributes just as effectively as if we were using ID/IDREF. > > *22.2 Modules and Schemas > * > For the line, "the order in which element declarations appear within > the schema code generated from a <gi>moduleSpec</gi> element cannot be > altered, and is not affected by the order of declarations within a > <gi>specGrp</gi>.", I think it might be nice if mention were made as > to why it cannot be altered. > Because that's how the ODD processors work... well, also because there isn't any way of specifying the order ... except by means of the predeclare attribute, come to think of it. Actually, I think I'll just delete "cannot...and". > *22.3 Specification Elements > * > In Chapter 1 on the Infrastructure, there is the line "In former > editions of these Guidelines, such elements were known metaphorically > as <soCalled>crystals</soCalled>". Therefore, should the line in this > section, "For this reason, we refer to them informally as crystals", > be emended to indicate that they were formerly referred to as such? > Ah yes. Well spotted! Changed "informally" to "metaphorically" > *22.4.1 Description of Components > * > 1) For the line beginning "A <gi>desc</gi> element is used...", > perhaps this should be introduced in the list just previous to it and > in at least one of the examples that follow? > <desc> is defined in the core so shouldnt appear in the specList here: but I've added an example. > 2) For the example with "<ptr target="#COHQHF"/>", I think it might be > nice to have a comment indicating to which element this is pointing. > OK > *22.4.2 Exemplification of Components* > > Maybe the definition for <exemplum> (not in source) could be changed from: > > "contains a single example demonstrating the use of an element, > together with optional paragraphs of commentary." > > to > > "contains both a single example demonstrating the use of an element, > along with optional paragraphs of commentary." > > in order to more clearly contrast it from the <eg> and <egXML> > definitions. > I see what you're trying to say, but your wording is not quite right. How about "groups an example demonstrating the use of an element along with optional paragraphs of commentary" > *22.4.3 Classification of Components* > > Is there supposed to be something defined by the code starting with > the following (e.g., to define <equiv>?): > <specGrp xml:id="TDSG4" n="Common specification elements">? > The <specGrp> is used to hold a number of specDescs. > > *22.4.4 Element Specifications* > > 1) The example beginning <rng:text > xmlns:rng="http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0"/> is not actually > output with the xmlns attribute, even though I think it probably > should be in this case since the next line states "This content model > uses the RELAX NG namespace". > I think this is a formatting problem. > 2) For the line, "The RELAX NG language does not formally distinguish > element names, class names, or macro names", is the same true for > attribute names, and if so, should it be added to the list? > Yes: and has been. > *22.4.5 Attribute List Specification* > > Maybe the definition for <valDesc> (not in source), so as to > distinguish it from <datatype>, could begin as "*informally* specifies > any semantic..." > OK > *22.4.5.2 Value Specificiation > * > 1) For the line, "The <gi>valList</gi> element is also used to provide > illustrative examples for the values permitted and their significance, > or to gloss the meaning of values implied by an attribute's > datatype.", might some examples be given of how examples can be given > or how a gloss is given for values implied by an attribute's datatype? > Might mention also be made of TEI Recommended Practice being indicated > by use of valList's? This is a bit inaccurate: I've corrected it. > > 2) Why are <!--specDesc key="equiv"/--> and <!--specDesc key="desc"/> > <specDesc key="remarks"/--> commented out? I think the following line > from this section ought to be able to refer to these sections: "this > is the function of the <gi>desc</gi> element), nor to comment on > equivalent values in other schemes (this is the purpose of the > <gi>equiv</gi> element).". > As noted above, we dont include them here because they're dfeined in the core. > *22.4.6 Element Classes* > > <classSpec> ought to have a comma after the words "that is" in its > definition (not in source). OK > > *22.4.7 Pattern Documentation > * > Why does the example in the reference page for stringVal list "SYSTEM > 'teiclasses"'"? Isn't a SYSTEM entity supposed to be followed by a > file name? > OK, I've made it a flename. > In the definition for <macroSpec type> and for <stringVal>, mention is > made of creation of an entity. Could this be made more generalized if > this is not only for entities? > These features is really only used in DTD generation. I am not sure how we'd want to generalise it. > *22.5 Building a Schema > * > The @predeclare attribute in att.identified (not in source) I think > should have "tei" capitalized, no? > No, module names are all lowercase > I didn't see any mention here of how a namespace is specified for an > element definition. Should that be added to the <soundClip> example? > (I see the reference mentions use of @ns on the <elementSpec>. > Yes, that should be added. > And I'd just like to reiterate my earlier suggestion to show on the > datatype pages examples of elements and attributes that use the > datatypes in question. Yes, some examples would certainly be useful. > > And while I'm sure this question was covered somewhere, I hope you > don't mind my asking whether datatypes are only defined for attribute > values or also for elements? If so, why not for elements (in addition > to allowing elements to be defined directly by RNG, etc.)? If for > elements too, should the datatype macros be changed to indicate that > they can also be used for element content? > In practice, although RNG permits it, we don't use datatypes for content models. We use model classes instead. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 1 05:23:04 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 10:23:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Report on Sanity Checker + Exemplars In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801302143190.453@Sewell-iMac.local> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801292156130.23863@Sewell-iMac.local> <47A051BC.1080506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A055C6.204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801302143190.453@Sewell-iMac.local> Message-ID: <47A2F308.2010203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > > 2. I added to TEI Tite but did *not* add to teilite.odd the following > to remove @rendition from the global attributes (as no <rendition> > element is avaiable to point to): > > <classSpec ident="att.global" type="atts" mode="change" > module="tei"> > <attList> > <attDef ident="rendition" mode="delete"/> > </attList> > </classSpec> > > I'd suggest that it be added to teilite.odd as well done -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 1 10:36:50 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 15:36:50 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 20 Non-hierarchical Structures In-Reply-To: <47A0AA6F.5060709@yahoo.com> References: <47A0AA6F.5060709@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47A33C92.8000109@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > * > 20.2 Boundary Marking with Empty Elements > * > For the example with '<lg > xmlns:hr="http://www.example.org/ns/nonTEI">', aren't <s>'s supposed > to be present end to end? It seems this approach couldn't work if > schemas ever started to enforce this requirement of <s>, no? > You're right. However, I am quite puzzled as to what the TEI namespaced <s> element is doing in this example anyway. I've changed it to a <seg> > *20.3 Fragrmentation and Reconstitution of Virtual Elements > * > With the lines: > "This method is TEI Conformant and simple to use. Its > disadvantage is that it does not work well for cases of self-overlap, > or if there are nested occurrences of the same element type, as it can > become difficult to ascertain which initial, medial, or final partial > element should be combined with which others or in which order." > > and parts of the example, e.g.,: > <s part="F">"<s>Is that guy > > ...it seems that nested <s>'s are allowed, whereas the reference page > indicates they are not allowed: > > "May contain any combination of text and phrase-level elements; *may > not contain itself*. The <s> element may be used to mark orthographic > sentences, or any other segmentation of a text, provided that the > segmentation is end-to-end, complete, and *non-nesting*." at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-s.html > Again you are right and the example is wrong. I have changed <s> globally to <seg> > *20.4 Stand-off Markup > * > Couldn't the namespace in "<p > xmlns:xi="http://www.example.org/ns/nonTEI">" be removed in favor of > simply escaping the "<" marks and adding the xi:include as CDATA? That > would seem to be much more clear for the sake of example (and avoid > the need for the footnote about it). > But then we couldn't validate the example. > For the lines, "It has been noted that stand-off markup has several > advantages over embedded annotations. In particular, it is possible to > produce annotations of a text even when the source document is > read-only.", isn't the same possible with a <join> with @targets set > to the read-only (external) document? > Yes. <join> is an example of stand-off markup, so I don't quite understand youre point. > For the line, "although all of the information of the multiple > hierarchies is included, the information may be difficult to access > using generic methods.", I presume by "difficult to access" it means > it is difficult for a human reader to follow? If this is not what it > means, I think that should still be added as an argument against such > markup. In any case, I think this sentence should be clarified/simplified. > This is by no means the only sentence in this chapter in need of simplification! but I think it's clear enough -- the more layers of annotation in a text, the more likely it is that generic simple off the shelf applications won't be able to cope. It's not (particularly) to do with human readability though that is obviously a factor as well. > For the line, "Inasmuch as it uses elements not included in the TEI > namespace, stand-off markup involves an extension of the TEI.", if TEI > schemas were to be made expected to support the XInclude namespace and > elements (like you are supporting the XML namespace attributes), such > documents would not need to be an extension. I'm disputing the > "inasmuch" part of this sentence here since a schema can import more > than one namespace, but also indicating my preference that XInclude > support be built-in to TEI (I know, Sourceforge, right?) :) > Er, yes. But it would still be an extension in some sense to use xinclude, or anything else from another namespace, surely? (the xml namespace is a special case ) > *20.5 Non-XML-based Approaches* > > For the line, "Use of these methods with the TEI will certainly > involve extensions; in most cases te documents will also be > non-Conformant.", isn't an extension "non-conformant" by definition? > Not exactly: see the chapter on conformance From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 1 11:31:45 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:31:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 19 - Graphs, networks, and Trees In-Reply-To: <47A1490D.1000205@yahoo.com> References: <47A1490D.1000205@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47A34971.9080307@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > * > > 19.1 Graphs and Digraphs > * > 1) For the line, "The <att>degree</att> attribute on the <gi>node</gi> > elements record the number of arcs that are *incident with* that > node.", can "incident with" be used with nodes as well as arcs > (instead of "adjacent with")? If so, should this definition be altered > to reflect that?: "Each node in an arc of an undirected graph is said > to be <term>incident</term> with that arc". > Not according to the definitions for "incident" and "adjacent" given in the text. > 2) For the example with "<node xml:id="LAX4" inDegree="1" > outDegree="1">", might the explanation explain inDegree and outDegree > here? > OK, added a sentence > *19.1.1 Transition Networks > * > For the chart with The Old Man Come (Images/graph3.jpg), shouldn't one > of these (the top one I think) be "Comes" instead of "Come"? > Drat. That means redrawing the picture! I'll see what we can do.... > *19.1.2 Family Trees > * > For <node value>'s such as "http://example.com/russell-fs/tei/kr1", is > this format specified because the feature structure it targets must > have an independent file on each such person? No. The concept of "file" doesnt apply here (there must be an independent feature structure, of course) -- it could just as well be http://example.com/russell-fs/tei/persons.xml#kr1 for example > > *19.2 Trees > * > Is the line, "Finally, we permit a node to be specified as following > other nodes, which (when its parent is ordered) it would be assumed to > precede, giving rise to crossing arcs." correct? Should it be "assumed > to follow"? > No, I don't think so, unless I misunderstand. The point is that even if the parent of a node claims it is ordered, and therefore that if node A follows node B (in the XML sense), then B precedes A, you can still say no, on the contrary, A actually precedes B. From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Feb 1 12:10:44 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:10:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Rationale for tagsDecl/namespace requirement? Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802011143500.23936@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Sorry not to have noted this before, but I'd like to raise a question about something in chapter 2 of the Guidelines (the TEI Header), in section 2.3.4, "The Tagging Declaration": A TEI conformant document is not required to contain a tagsDecl element, but if one is present, it must contain tagUsage elements for each distinct element marked in the associated text... Now, a *valid* tagsDecl doesn't need to contain any tagUsage elements, as the content model of <tagsDecl> is element tagsDecl { att.global.attributes, ( rendition*, namespace* ) } (in P5, <tagUsage> elements are now children of <namespace>). But I submit that the following ought to be considered both valid and TEI conformant: . . . [in teiHeader] . . . <tagsDecl> <rendition xml:id="bigbold" scheme="css">font-family: "Comic Sans MS"; font-weight: bold; font-size: larger;</rendition> </tagsDecl> . . . [later, somewhere inside TEI/text] . . . <p>It was a <emph rendition="#bigbold">very</emph> fine day.</p> Imagine a text, say a contemporary short story, where the author uses a particular quirky typography on a regular basis, like the one described by 'bigbold' above. In tagging this text, I want to be able to use the new P5 global @rendition to point to my formal CSS description of the typographic practice. But I don't see why I'm then obligated to figure out all the elements I'm using in the tagging and construct a <namespace> element with a <tagUsage> for each one, when all I want is a rigorous and consistent way of describing a particular rendition. I'd propose that the relevant Guidelines language on tagsDecl/namespace change "must" to "may" where applicable so that a practice like the above is not deprecated. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 1 12:37:34 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:37:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 18 - Feature Structures In-Reply-To: <47A19B9E.3040601@yahoo.com> References: <47A19B9E.3040601@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47A358DE.90806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > * > 18.2 Elementary Feature Structures and the Binary Feature Value* > > Might the definition for <binary/> (not in source) add add the add a > clarification such as "(also called a Boolean value)". > The ISO workgroup responsible for this chapter (the text of which is now actually included in a published ISO standard!) was quite adamant on the fact that binary does not mean the same as boolean. Binary simply means two possible states -- with none of the semantics of true/false associated with boolean. > *18.3 Other Atomic Feature Values > * > For <numeric/>, as there is no @min since <numeric/>'s @value > represents a lower bound, should mention be made that not indicating a > @max value means that the <numeric value=> has no bounds? > * > * But it doesn't. If you specify only @value, then the lower and upper bound are the same. > *18.4 Feature and Feature-Value Libraries* > > Is there a way to express feature value libraries with regular > expressions? > I'm not sure what you're getting at here, but if you mean can you express the value part of a feature value using a regexp, then the answer is no. You can only use members of model.featureVal (tho obviously a given regexp can be rewritten as say a vColl or vNot) > *18.5 Feature Structures as Complex Feature Values* > > 1) What is the significance of <f name="rel"> <symbol value="LOVE"/> > </f>? Why is LOVE repeated here? > There is a feature whose name is "rel" and its value is a symbol "LOVE". I don't see any repetition.Oh, wait a minute: I see what you mean. The first occurrence of "love" (lower case) is the string value of a feature called "surface form". The one in uppercase is a symbolic value within some semantic system -- it's nothing to do with the word "love", it's the action (rel) which the word denotes. > 2) Why would features #N1 (presumably a noun) be on an adjective?: <fs > xml:id="ADJ" type="adjective" feats="#N1 #V1"> or a verb feature in a > preposition: <fs xml:id="PREP" type="preposition" feats="#N0 #V0"> > Yes, that is a bit odd, as is the fact that this example is a CDATA section instead of a proper egXML, which makes me suspiucious. Anyway the values used for the pointers are completely arbiytrary -- so I changed them to F1 F2 F3. > 3) For the following: > > *In this case, we assume the existence of a feature library* > containing specifications for the basic feature categories like the > following: > <egXML xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples"><fLib n="categorial > features"> > <f xml:id="NN-1" name="nominal"><binary value="true"/></f> > <f xml:id="NN-0" name="nominal"><binary value="false"/></f> > <f xml:id="VV-1" name="verbal"><binary value="true"/></f> > <f xml:id="VV-0" name="verbal"><binary value="false"/></f> > <!-- ... --> > </fLib> > </egXML> > </p> > <p>*With these libraries in place*, and assuming the availability of > similarly predefined feature structures for transitivity and > semantics, the preceding example could be considerably simplified: > <egXML xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples"><fs type="word"> > <f name="surface"><string>love</string></f> > <f name="syntax"> > <fs type="category"> > <f name="pos" fVal*="#V"/>* > <f name="val" fVal="#TRNS"/> > </fs> > </f> > <f name="semantics"> > <fs type="act"> > <f name="rel" fVal="#LOVE"/> > </fs> > </f> > </fs> > </egXML></p> > > The introductions to the examples would lead me to think that NN-1, > etc. might be used in the example, but in this case, it seems only to > have #V. Is this mistaken? > I've changed "these libraries" to "such libraries" which may help a bit. NN-1 etc are only there are examples. > *18.7 Collections as Complex Feature Values > * > Is there a means to express that a given feature structure, in a > <vColl>, etc., is required or not? > Yes, that is what the FSD does. > *18.8.1 Alternation > * > 1) "A better, and more general, way would be to represent the > alternation explicitly". Might there be an explanation here as to why > this is a better way? > I think of it as better because it seems more explicit to me, but maybe this is all so obscure that no-one would agree with me. I've deleted "better, and". > 2) Why is "TEI P5" mentioned here: > > "If a large number of ambiguities or uncertainties need to be > represented, involving a relatively small number of features and > values, it is recommended that a stand-off technique, for example > using the general-purpose <gi>alt</gi> element discussed in <!-- > section <ptr target="SAAT"/> of --> *TEI P5*, be used, rather than the > special-purpose <gi>vAlt</gi> element." > > Ah, that;s because the text you;re looking at is the ISO text, which cannot reference back to sections of TEI P5. Fixed. > *18.11 Feature System Declaration > * > Might a reference here (or elsewhere) to OWL/RDF put this chapter into > a wider context given the metadata this chapter introduces: > "The scheme described in this chapter may be used to document any > feature structure system, but is primarily intended for use with the > feature structure representation defined by the ISO 24610-1:2006 > standard, which corresponds with the recommendations presented in > these Guidelines" Maybe: I;ll pass this suggestion on to the ISO workgroup (they are still working on revising the FSD section of this chapter) > > *18.11.1 Linking a TEI Text to Feature System Declarations* > > For the line, "Each <gi>fsDecl</gi> has a unique identifier, given as > the value of its <att>xml:id</att> attribute.", the example below it > does not have xml:id's on its <fsDecl>'s. > I think this is a slip. The paragraph whose beginning you cite is probably in the wrong place. Anyway, for the moment, I have just commented it out. > *18.11.3 Feature Declarations* > > I think the various elements mentioned within the <vRange> and > <vDefault> definitions (not in source) ought to have "<" and ">" > brackets around them. > Indeed they should. And the descriptions need some revision for comprehensibility too. > *18.11.4 Feature Structure Constraints* > > 1) I can't tell apart the definitions for <cond> and <bicond> (not in > source). > <cond> is satisfied if the antecedent does not subsume a given feature; <bicond> only if both antecedent and consequent do not. > 2) Are & supposed to be in the output at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/FS.html ? > Probably not, but you need to tell me more precisely where you spotted them > 3) Might discussion be added in this section as to how these > constraints might be used with or instead of Schematron constraints? > Well, yes. Schematron is another way of implementing the constraints defined by a WSD (and one that has been suggested to the workgroup) but they haven't reviewed the possibility or its implications yet. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 1 16:31:05 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 21:31:05 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] white space space Message-ID: <47A38F99.6030903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> OK, anyone care to express an opinion as to whether it's "whitespace" or "white space"? SFAICS we have roughly equal numbers of both, occasionally within the same sentence. And if it's "white space", is it "white-space delimited" or "white space-delimited"? From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 05:18:51 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 10:18:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] white space space In-Reply-To: <47A38F99.6030903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47A38F99.6030903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47A4438B.3070709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> same rule as before, "white space" as a noun, "white-space" adjectival? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From jawalsh at indiana.edu Sat Feb 2 06:05:41 2008 From: jawalsh at indiana.edu (John A. Walsh) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 06:05:41 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Rationale for tagsDecl/namespace requirement? In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802011143500.23936@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802011143500.23936@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: <AD25BFEA-30EB-4D3D-9ADE-E7EFE3EC0D3E@indiana.edu> Good catch, David. I agree heartily with what you suggest below. John -- | John A. Walsh | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | www: <http://www.slis.indiana.edu/faculty/jawalsh/> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 <mailto:jawalsh at indiana.edu> On Feb 1, 2008, at 12:10 PM, David Sewell wrote: > Sorry not to have noted this before, but I'd like to raise a question > about something in chapter 2 of the Guidelines (the TEI Header), in > section 2.3.4, "The Tagging Declaration": > > A TEI conformant document is not required to contain a tagsDecl > element, but if one is present, it must contain tagUsage elements > for each distinct element marked in the associated text... > > Now, a *valid* tagsDecl doesn't need to contain any tagUsage elements, > as the content model of <tagsDecl> is > > element tagsDecl { att.global.attributes, ( rendition*, > namespace* ) } > > (in P5, <tagUsage> elements are now children of <namespace>). > > But I submit that the following ought to be considered both valid and > TEI conformant: > > . . . [in teiHeader] . . . > <tagsDecl> > <rendition xml:id="bigbold" scheme="css">font-family: "Comic > Sans MS"; > font-weight: bold; font-size: larger;</rendition> > </tagsDecl> > . . . [later, somewhere inside TEI/text] . . . > <p>It was a <emph rendition="#bigbold">very</emph> fine day.</p> > > Imagine a text, say a contemporary short story, where the author > uses a > particular quirky typography on a regular basis, like the one > described > by 'bigbold' above. In tagging this text, I want to be able to use > the new P5 global @rendition to point to my formal CSS description of > the typographic practice. But I don't see why I'm then obligated to > figure out all the elements I'm using in the tagging and construct > a <namespace> element with a <tagUsage> for each one, when all I want > is a rigorous and consistent way of describing a particular rendition. > > I'd propose that the relevant Guidelines language on tagsDecl/ > namespace > change "must" to "may" where applicable so that a practice like the > above is not deprecated. > > David > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Sat Feb 2 10:56:44 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 08:56:44 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] white space space In-Reply-To: <47A4438B.3070709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47A38F99.6030903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A4438B.3070709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1201967804.32151.0.camel@localhost> Yes. And certainly not white space-delimited. On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 10:18 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > same rule as before, "white space" as a noun, "white-space" adjectival? > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 11:28:47 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 16:28:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Re: white space space] Message-ID: <47A49A3F.6030306@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Following my earlier note, I observed that "whitespace" was used throughout the Guidelines chapter files, and therefore plumped for that throughout the element spec files as well. The attached note from David confirms me in my belief that this was the Right Thing To Do. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: David Sewell <dsewell at virginia.edu> Subject: Re: [tei-council] white space space Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 11:22:11 -0500 (EST) Size: 2999 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080202/9cad446a/attachment.eml From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 14:10:15 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 19:10:15 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 23 - Using the TEI - part I In-Reply-To: <47A331A0.3030101@yahoo.com> References: <47A331A0.3030101@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47A4C017.9010108@oucs.ox.ac.uk> [For completeness, I include here some comments from SPQR which Brett has already seen, but Council members have not] Brett Zamir wrote: > If I didn't mention it for Chapter 22, I think it would be helpful to > indicate whether module definitions, etc. should go in their own > dedicated documents, and if so, what a barest outline might be (e.g., > does it have a <TEI> and <teiHeader>, etc.?). > Well, this does rather depend on the application. Roma requires that a <schemaSpec> be given within a complete TEI document, but others might not. > * > 23.2.1.1 Deletion of Elements > * > 1) I think it would be helpful to explain /why/ someone would want to > delete an element. > Why deletion in particular? Because it makes the schema smaller and easier to handle? But you could argue the same for e.g. modification of valLists. There are many reasons for wanting to tighten up on a schema like tei_all! > 2) It seems to me that this subsection and all of the others at the > same level are redundant with Chapter 22. > There is some repetition inevitably: 22 is the formal definition, whereas here we are giving the "how to". > *23.2.1.4 Modification of Attribute and Attribute Value Lists > * > For the line, "It is often desirable to constrain the possible values > for an attribute to a greater extent than is possible by simply > supplying a TEI datatype for it. This facility is provided by the > <gi>valList</gi> element...", isn't there a way to use <rng:> prefixed > enumeration type elements to do this? > SPQR> "yes, you could do. the reason we want you to use <valList> is that it provides a context for documentation (desc, gloss and equiv)" > > *23.2.1.5 Class Modification > * > 1) "To add an element to a class in which it is not already a member, > all that is needed is to supply a <gi>memberOf</gi> element *with the > implicit value for its <att>mode</att> attribute of > <val>add</val>*. *For example, *to add an element to the <ident > type="class">att.typed</ident> class, we include a declaration like > the following: > <egXML xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples" > rend="full"><elementSpec ident="eg" module="tagdocs" mode="change" > ns="http://example.com/ns"> > <classes mode="change"> > *<memberOf *key="att.typed"/> > </classes> > </elementSpec></egXML> > > I don't see how the implicit value here would be "add", since the mode > specified is "change". Even if it is, I find this explanation a bit > confusing. > SPQR>"The mode on <classes> is "change"; the implicit mode is on <memberOf>. reworded, hopefully clearer now." I dont think the @mode on <memberOf> need be mentioned at all, since it confuses the issue. > 2) For this section, there also seem to be inconsistency between the > explanation and example: > > "...the <gi>classes</gi> element may indicate this by *defaulting its > <att>mode</att> attribut*e. *By default, this attribute has the value > <val>replace</val>*, implying that the memberships indicated by its > child <gi>memberOf</gi> elements the only ones applicable. > *Thus *the following declaration: <egXML > xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples" rend="full"><elementSpec > ident="term" module="core" *mode="change" *ns="http://example.com/ns"> > <classes> > <memberOf key="att.interpLike"/> > </classes> > </elementSpec></egXML> > would have the *effect of removing the element* <gi>term</gi> from > both its existing attribute classes, and adding it to the <ident > type="class">att.interpLike</ident> class.</p> > <p>*If however the <att>mode</att> attribute is set to <val>change</val>*" SPQR> "no, its correct. the <elementSpec> has a mode "change" as normal, but the <classes> has no mode, and thus defaults to "replace". Its weird, tho, I will change it." (This slightly anomalous behaviour for @mode on <classes> was a recent change -- I have also tried to further clarify the text a bit.) > > *23.2.2 Modification and Namespaces* > > 1) I changed the line from "*All the *elements defined in the TEI > scheme are labelled as belonging to a single namespace" to > "*Essentially all of the *elements defined in the TEI scheme are > labelled as belonging to a single namespace" due to e.g., > http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples > > Likewise for the line later in 23.3.4: "All elements in a TEI Schema > which represents concepts from the TEI abstract model belong to the > TEI namespace, <ident type="ns">http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0</ident>, > maintained by the TEI along with additional namespaces for language > variants." Maybe the former example should also mention the language > variants as well? > SPQR> "I'm removing that hostage to fortune of the language variants; Lou, reinstate if you disagree " I've made some textual changes to reflect this concern, though not exactly the ones you propose. > 2) I think the content discussed here, e.g., about @ns would be well > to be introduced in Chapter 22. Yes, it should be better documented there. > > 3) For the lines, "Suppose, for example, that we wish to add a new > attribute <att scheme="imaginary">topic</att> to the existing TEI > element <gi>p</gi>. *In the absence of namespace considerations, this > would be an unclean modification*, since <gi>p</gi> does not currently > have such an attribute. The most appropriate action is to *explicitly > attach the new attribute to a new namespace *by a declaration such as > the following:....*Since <att scheme="imaginary">topic</att> is > explicitly labelled as belonging to something other than the TEI > namespace, we regard the modification which introduced it as clean.*", > as I understand it, adding a namespace would still not be "clean" > (although it might be conformable if the attribute could be safely > stripped or converted), because it still requires the addition of new > attributes not otherwise allowed in a regular TEI conformant document. > SPQR> "not sure I get you here. do you mean the namespace-declaring attributes? the new attributes will be added, but not being in the TEI namespace are ok " Yes, I am a bit puzzled by your comment too. As the example shows, you can add attributes from other namespaces with impunity, since cleanliness only applies to elements etc. from the TEI namespace. > 4) For the line, "A namespace-aware processor will regard this > document as valid according to the unmodified schema.", if the schema > is "unmodified", then it will not have imported the namespace, which > would mean it was not valid, no? > SPQR> "yes, this sentence is odd. reworded." > 5) "The namespace for such translations is the same as that for the > canonical namespace, *suffixed by the two character *language > identifier. A schema specification using the Chinese translation, for > example, would use the namespace <ident > type="ns">http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0/zh</ident>". Might this be > changed to say "two or four or more character language identifier"? > Especially in the case cited, that makes a big difference what the > "dialect" is. > SPQR> "yes, agreed" I've added a cross reference to #CHSH > *23.3 Conformance* > > 1) I would think that even the first chapter might contain details > about the information presented here. > Yes, this might be a good idea. > 2) How about turning the definitions for TEI Conformant, etc. into a > list or subsections? I think this is important enough to want to be > able to refer back to it quickly. > There are quite a few lists there already, of course. > 3) I think it would be helpful to indicate here how a "clean > modification" relates to conformance. > It's a contentious topic: perhaps you would like to expound the issues as you see them? > 4) For the description of an extension, /"A document is said to use a > <term>TEI Extension</term> if it is a well-formed XML document which > is valid against a TEI Schema which contains additional distinctions, > representing concepts not present in the TEI abstract model, and > therefore not documented in these Guidelines. Such a document cannot, > in general, be algorithmically conformant since it cannot be > automatically transformed without loss of information."/, might the > thought be conveyed here that some loss of information might not be > very critical in certain cases? For example, if a TEI processor, as > long as it were programmed to ignore elements it didn't recognize (or, > with my suggestion to allow ANY content within certain elements like > <graphic>), might be used to view a TEI document with some SVG inside, > without any deleterious effects. One might also point out that such > "extensions" might in some cases be even easier to process than > "Conformable" ones, given that they might use the more easily > recognized namespace mechanism rather than some other algorithm. > I don't agree. A TEI processor *must* be able to validate documents, and that means that their schema must declare all the elements used, excepting only those which come from other namespaces. But maybe I am misunderstanding your suggestion? > 5) When discussing "TEI Recommended Practice", might mention be made > here of being able to use Schematron to enforce certain practices not > representable by the other schemas? > Better integration of schematron as a means of enforcing constraints not expressible or not expressed by schemas is a major work item for the next release... > *23.3.1 Well-formedness criterion* > > 1) The reference here to successors to XML 1.0, made me look back and > perhaps this line in Chapter 1 might be changed, since theoretically > at least you might have some people looking to put documents into > Mongolian, etc., which can only be done by XML 1.1: "Attributes of > type <ident type="datatype">data.name</ident> are also words in this > sense, but they have the additional constraint that they must be legal > XML identifiers, as defined by the XML 1.0 specification* (or > successors)*." > Agreed: done. > 2) Would this line, "Other ways of representing the concepts of the > TEI abstract model are possible, and other representations may be > considered appropriate for use in particular situations (for example, > for data capture, or project-internal processing)." be suitable for > adding mention of representing non-hierarchical information (e.g., > SGML-like ones)? > What SGML-like ways of representing non-hierarchical info are you thinking of? CONCUR is the only one I am aware of. > *23.3.2 Validation Constraint > * > 1) "All <term>TEI Conformant</term> documents must validate against a > schema file that has been *derived from the published TEI > _Guidelines_*, combined and documented in the manner described in > section <ptr target="#MD"/>. We call the formal output of this process > a <term>TEI Schema</term>". Is this supposed to be derived from the > published ODD files or the like instead of "Guidelines"? If it in fact > does mean the Guidelines, maybe this should read "derived from the > directions outlined in the published TEI Guidelines"? > The Guidelines comprise both text and schema specifications. > 2) Could this line, "No schema language fully captures all the > constraints implied by conformance to the TEI abstract model." safely > be qualified to say "No *single *schema language"? > I don't see any significant difference between the two assertions, but I am happy to insert the word. > 3) If the W3C Schema and Relax NG are fully interchangeable as far as > conversion from ODD/expression of TEI, might this line "A document > which is valid according to a TEI schema represented using one schema > language may not be valid against the same schema expressed in other > languages" be expanded to make that clear (when I use Roma, for > example, I am unaware as to whether W3C Schema and RNG are equally > constraining)? > This is Roma-specific, however: and we are talking general principles here. It just so happens that Roma generates XSD by using trang to munge RELAX NG -- a different schema processor might decide to generate XSD directly and might be able to include constraints expressed in ODD by means of schematron constraints directly. > 4) Given the earlier line, "TEI conformance implies that the schema > used to determine validity of a given document should be derived from > the present Guidelines, preferably by means of an ODD which references > and documents the schema fragments which the Guidelines define.", > might the line "derivation from an ODD is a *necessary* but not a > sufficient condition" be altered to reflect that a TEI-conformant > document must only /preferentially/ be derived from an ODD? I've removed "preferably". So sue me. > And likewise for the line later in 23.3.5, "a TEI Schema can *only be > *generated from a TEI ODD..."? > See above. > *23.3.3 Conformance to the TEI Abstract Model* > > For the lines, "...the class membership of an existing TEI element > cannot therefore be changed without changing the model. Elements can > however be removed from a class by deletion, and *new non-TEI elements > can be added to existing TEI classes*." Might it be stated here what > effect doing so may have on conformance? > Not sure what that effect is... we are talking about classes as a component of the abstract model here, so a non-TEI-namespaced membership in a class is a rather nebulous idea. > *23.3.5 Documentation Constraint* > > 1) For the line, "A TEI Conformant document should therefore always be > accompanied by (or refer to) a valid <term>TEI ODD file</term> > specifying which modules, elements, classes, etc., are in use together > with any modifications or renamings applied, and from which a TEI > Schema can be generated to validate the document.", I think this might > be a good place to mention RDDL (the XHTML extension placed where a > namespace URL points, which lets you indicate further resources > related to a given namespace). > This has been mentioned before (by you I think?) and is definitely something we need to consider further. Please put in a SF feature request! > 2) Does Roma have a means of providing an ODD file? Might a link be > added here to refer to resources for preparing such a file? I imagine > it could be pretty intimidating coming to the guidelines if one > weren't aware of resources like Roma and perhaps people giving up if > they thought they had to do all of this from scratch. > Roma does indeed allow you to save an ODD file as well as process one. > *23.3.6 Varieties of TEI Conformance* > > For the line "If not, then the document can only be considered TEI > Conformant if it validates against a predefined TEI Schema *and > conforms to the TEI abstract model*.", isn't the last part redundant > with the next line asking whether the markup represents the TEI > abstract model? > Not really. The questions are to be answered in the sequence given, so if you answered "yes" to this one, you get the test for conformancre to the abstract model next; if you answered "no", you get it mentioned conditionally... From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Sat Feb 2 14:39:36 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 12:39:36 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Re: white space space] In-Reply-To: <47A49A3F.6030306@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47A49A3F.6030306@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1201981176.624.2.camel@localhost> Given the fantastic work you, David, and Brett are doing, I'm hardly one to say boo one way or the other. On Sat, 2008-02-02 at 16:28 +0000, Lou's Laptop wrote: > Following my earlier note, I observed that "whitespace" was used > throughout the Guidelines chapter files, and therefore plumped for that > throughout the element spec files as well. The attached note from David > confirms me in my belief that this was the Right Thing To Do. > > > email message attachment (Re: [tei-council] white space space.eml) > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > From: David Sewell <dsewell at virginia.edu> > > To: Lou's Laptop <lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk> > > Subject: Re: [tei-council] white space space > > Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 11:22:11 -0500 (EST) > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 15:33:04 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:33:04 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] 1.0.1 release text Message-ID: <47A4D380.4070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I propose the following as release notes for 1.0.1, for which I will be pressing the Big Red Button tomorrow. I will leave it to Laurent to make a public announcement, using any or all of the text below (but don't send anything until I confirm its done, Laurent!). ******************** After the P5 1.0 release on November 1st 2007, the TEI Technical Council has continued to refine the Guidelines and respond to error reports. with over 300 sets of changes committed to Sourceforge. The vast majority of changes are to the text, at the grammatical, technical, and explanatory level. We would like to acknowledge here the pre-eminent part played by Brett Zamir, who has read every chapter carefully, and made a huge number of important corrections and clarifications. A very few changes have been made which affect generated schemas: * model.gLike was added to the content model of <measureGrp> * <ptr> was adjusted so that either @cRef or @target is mandatory * an error generating schema from attribute classes was fixed * some Schematron rules have been adjusted This release also includes a complete set of reference documentation generated for Chinese, French, German, Italian, Japanese and Spanish. The translation work is not finished yet, but is starting to be useable for these languages. For the first time, the Guidelines are available in PDF as well as HTML. The design of this printable format was a collaborative effort by many members of the TEI Board of Directors and Technical Council, coordinated and implemented by Sebastian Rahtz. New releases of Roma and the TEI XSL stylesheet family accompany this release, correcting reported bugs and providing more internationalisation. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 16:00:02 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 21:00:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 23 - Using the TEI - part II In-Reply-To: <47A353CD.6060004@yahoo.com> References: <47A353CD.6060004@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47A4D9D2.6010801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > Ok, here is the last installment... Enjoy! :) Thanks for staying the course ... > > * > 23.4 Implementation of an ODD System* > > Any plans for ideas on implementation of a TEI processor (including > those just acting on a subset of TEI)? > Lots. That's what the software SIG is all about. > *23.4.1 Making a Unified ODD* > > The attribute @targeLang definition ought to have "element" and > "attribute" as plural. And I'm unclear as to what this definition means. > It's not in house style either. I've changed it. > And I'm unclear as to why one would use @docLang. > Element specs may contain descriptions (<desc>s) in several languages: this allows you to select which one to choose if you dont want them all > I was unclear on the meaning of this: "However, if that > <gi>rng:choice</gi> is itself inside a <gi>rng:zeroOrMore</gi> inside > a <gi>rng:group</gi>, the simplifying process *may be harder*, and the > resolution is *left to a later stage*." I've revised this a bit, possibly making it more prolix in the process. > > *23.4.2 Generating Schemas > * > One paragraph begins "Finally, an application " while the next > paragraph begins "Finally, ODD processors " > I've run the two together. > *23.4.4.2 Classes > * > 1) For the lines, "*Notice that the <gi>desc</gi> element is used to > add an <gi>a:documentation</gi> element* to the schema, which some > editors use to provide help during composition. The *<gi>desc</gi> > elements in the <gi>valList</gi> are used to create the human-readable > sentence *<quote>Sample values include: 1] no; 2] yes; 3] weak; 4] > strong</quote>", these are not actually output in the docs at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/USE.html > Formatting problem. > 2) If the line, "An individual attribute consists of an > <gi>rng:attribute</gi> with a <att>name</att> attribute derived > according to the naming rules described above" is meant to be read > along with the eariler line, "the pattern name is created by appending > an underscore and the name of the generation sequence to the class > name", I don't see that the example actually uses an underscore, etc. > here. No, this is a reference to the conventiuons on attribute naming; I've added an explicit cross reference to make it cleaer. > > *23.3.6 Generating Documentation* > > For the line, "One model of display on a web page is shown in Figure", > I removed "Figure" because the <ptr> that follows already gets > rendered with a Figure. > OK > *23.4.7.1 Selection of Modules* > > The examples at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/USE.html ainclude > cases where & gt; is rendered as such when it shouldn't. > I hope these have all been fixed now... > *23.4.7.4 Embedding Local Modifications (DTD only) > * > For the line, "<eg><![CDATA[<!ENTITY % macro.phraseSeq 'it | bd > |'>]]></eg>", isn't this only a partial listing, unlike what the > directions imply should take place, that the parameter entity be > "modified to include the generic identifiers for the new elements we > wish to create" (i.e., that the old items should still be present)? > This is just plain wrong, and correcting it will involve reinstating a lot of very specific technical details about DTD processing. I am therefore minded to fudge the issue. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 2 16:40:02 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2008 21:40:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] persName question In-Reply-To: <20080130000030.AD68D50014@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> References: <479F6644.2060405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <479F6ECB.8090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080129233426.1076450077@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> <479FB9D5.4090501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080130000030.AD68D50014@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47A4E332.4060001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > > c) Change ref (say) to allow multiple URIs but stipulate what this means (alternatives, or multiple people all present, or whatever), and provide guidance for the other possibilities. I have now implemented at least some of this (i.e. I've changed att.naming to permit multiple values for @ref, and added a sentence to ND explaining what it means) From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 3 07:07:47 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 12:07:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] <name> and att.editLike In-Reply-To: <47A5298D.6040104@yahoo.com> References: <47A5298D.6040104@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47A5AE93.2010000@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > The docs at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ND.html > do say that "Members of the att.naming > <http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-att.naming.html> > class also inherit the following attributes from the att.editLike > <http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-att.editLike.html> > class: ", but the reference for att.naming at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-att.naming.html > doesn't show this... > > Brett That's a mistake in ND -- now fixed. It should say "some members" -- by no means all of them do. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sun Feb 3 14:16:16 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 14:16:16 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 6 In-Reply-To: <478F91E8.9080309@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478C799E.9020905@yahoo.com> <478F91E8.9080309@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18342.4864.832590.58168@emt.wwp.brown.edu> LB> Hmm, yes. We need an example here. Any suggestions? <lg type="song" rhyme="-a-a-abb"> <l>How many roads must a man walk down</l> <l>Before you call him a man?</l> <l>Yes, 'n' how many seas must a white dove sail</l> <l>Before she sleeps in the sand?</l> <l>Yes, 'n' how many times must the cannon balls fly</l> <l>Before they're forever banned?</l> <l>The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,</l> <l>The answer is blowin' in the wind.</l> <!-- http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/blowin.html 2008-02-03 --> </lg> BZ> Footnote 23: BZ> "The eccentric formatting of this example ... LB> Looking at this footnote again, ... I'll try to reword the note LB> more sensibly. Have you gotten to this yet? (If you did, I'm afraid I didn't notice the difference. :-) In any case, the problem is not just that the footnote could be worded more clearly, but that the example as formatted in the HTML output does not retain the careful use of whitespace in the source. Source: | <seg type="foot"><seg type="syll">Ar</seg><seg type="syll">ma </seg><seg type="syll">vi</seg> | </seg><seg type="foot"><seg type="syll">rum</seg><seg type="syll">que </seg><seg type="syll">ca</seg> I.e., "Arma vi rumque ca" HTML: | <seg type="foot"> | <seg type="syll">Ar</seg> | <seg type="syll">ma </seg> | <seg type="syll">vi</seg> | </seg> | <seg type="foot"> | <seg type="syll">rum</seg> | <seg type="syll">que </seg> | <seg type="syll">ca</seg> I.e., "Ar ma vi rum que ca" If we have no mechanism of saying to the ODD to HTML processor "leave the whitespace alone on this one", e.g., xml:space="preserve", this may be a case where use of <eg> over <egXML> is beneficial. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 3 14:42:46 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2008 19:42:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] release 1.0.1 (the Brett Zamir special) Message-ID: <47A61936.4090609@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Done in Sourceforge source and file release system, and in Debian packages. Still waiting to see if I can do web site myself, or whether I need to ask Chris R to fix it up. Roma may take a day or so longer. congratulations (not) to Syd and Lou, who both managed to add invalid examples at the very last minute.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Mon Feb 4 01:29:28 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 01:29:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 9 - Dictionaries In-Reply-To: <47936956.9070009@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478F2941.4020205@yahoo.com> <47936956.9070009@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200802040629.m146TSww025218@perseus.services.brown.edu> > > 2) Since <sense> is defined (not in the source) as grouping info > > related to "definitions, examples, and translation equivalents", > > while I see <cit type="example"> used, what about also allowing > > <eg>? Maybe an example could also be given of how a translation > > equivalent would be encoded (e.g., with @xml:lang)? And are these > > really "citations"? > I agree that there is a case to be made for permitting <eg> here -- > it is permitted, in fact if the appropriate modules are included in > the schema. There is clearly some overlap in meaning between <eg> > and <quote> in this context, though most dictionaries tend to > prefer to use real life quotations rather than made up examples, > which is why <cit> is proposed: this element also gives the > opportunity of associating a quotation with its source, or some > other structure. While I agree there is a case to be made for <eg>, it seems to me that <quote> is the correct element to use. To me <cit> only makes sense when there is also a citation of the source for a quotation, and you want to wrap them together. I still do not understand its use to encode the quotation itself. Seems to me <eg> makes more sense than <cit>, and <quote> makes more sense than <eg>. The <quote> element is specifically intended to encode passages quoted from sources outside the text, whether correctly or not, whether real or contrived, whether originally spoken or written. (Or signed.) From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Feb 4 08:26:28 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 14:26:28 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] release 1.0.1 (the Brett Zamir special) In-Reply-To: <47A61936.4090609@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47A61936.4090609@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <F579E04F-5A09-47FB-9AC8-B259EAB55D0F@loria.fr> Means I still wait for your green light? Laurent Le 3 f?vr. 08 ? 20:42, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Done in Sourceforge source and file release system, and in Debian > packages. > Still waiting to see if I can do web site myself, or whether I need to > ask Chris R to fix it up. Roma may take a day or so longer. > > congratulations (not) to Syd and Lou, who both managed > to add invalid examples at the very last minute.... > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Feb 4 09:06:51 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:06:51 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 9 - Dictionaries In-Reply-To: <200802040629.m146TSww025218@perseus.services.brown.edu> References: <478F2941.4020205@yahoo.com> <47936956.9070009@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <200802040629.m146TSww025218@perseus.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <23579014-4FD4-4996-AF58-5393804EC834@loria.fr> One important thing to understand is the role of <cit> in P5 as a generic container for any linguistic quotation/example refined by linguistic or biliographical information. It may thus occur in context where one would just want to provide an example (it has thus replaced the 'old' and specific dictEG we used to have in P4) or translations (thus replacing the 'old' tr+trans construction). A typical interesting application is for me: <cit type="translation" xml:lang="en"> <quote>remoulade</quote> <quote>r?moulade</quote> <def>dressing containing mustard and herbs</def> </cit> Where the definition situates the meaning of the translation in the target language. A more usual one is a translation that only applies in certain grammatical or semantic circumstances: <cit type="translation" xml:lang="fr"> <quote>habilleur</quote> <gen>m</gen> </cit> And a more elaborate one when an example is provided with its translation: <cit type="example"> <quote>she's a stylish <oRef/> </quote> <cit type="translation" xml:lang="fr"> <quote>elle s'habille avec chic</quote> </cit> </cit> You see that <quote> is always used as default element for the phrase/ sentence, and would recommend this as good practices to guaranty some homogeneity of such linguistic elements all over a dictionary. So let's avoid <eg> in any case, and try to use the cit/quote construction in a systematic way. Laurent Le 4 f?vr. 08 ? 07:29, Syd Bauman a ?crit : >>> 2) Since <sense> is defined (not in the source) as grouping info >>> related to "definitions, examples, and translation equivalents", >>> while I see <cit type="example"> used, what about also allowing >>> <eg>? Maybe an example could also be given of how a translation >>> equivalent would be encoded (e.g., with @xml:lang)? And are these >>> really "citations"? > >> I agree that there is a case to be made for permitting <eg> here -- >> it is permitted, in fact if the appropriate modules are included in >> the schema. There is clearly some overlap in meaning between <eg> >> and <quote> in this context, though most dictionaries tend to >> prefer to use real life quotations rather than made up examples, >> which is why <cit> is proposed: this element also gives the >> opportunity of associating a quotation with its source, or some >> other structure. > > While I agree there is a case to be made for <eg>, it seems to me that > <quote> is the correct element to use. To me <cit> only makes sense > when there is also a citation of the source for a quotation, and you > want to wrap them together. I still do not understand its use to > encode the quotation itself. Seems to me <eg> makes more sense than > <cit>, and <quote> makes more sense than <eg>. > > The <quote> element is specifically intended to encode passages > quoted from sources outside the text, whether correctly or not, > whether real or contrived, whether originally spoken or written. > (Or signed.) > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 4 09:48:26 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 14:48:26 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] release 1.0.1 (the Brett Zamir special) In-Reply-To: <F579E04F-5A09-47FB-9AC8-B259EAB55D0F@loria.fr> References: <47A61936.4090609@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <F579E04F-5A09-47FB-9AC8-B259EAB55D0F@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47A725BA.7080601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Means I still wait for your green light? until Chris replies to me, yes -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Feb 5 06:36:41 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 12:36:41 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] 1.0.1 release text In-Reply-To: <47A4D380.4070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47A4D380.4070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <91E3CC17-8328-4E58-8033-E380D7B3AC3E@loria.fr> Should not we provide pointers to the main pages concerned with this announcement: Entry point to the guidelines, Roma, <measureGrp>, XSLT update, etc. ? Laurent Le 2 f?vr. 08 ? 21:33, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > I propose the following as release notes for > 1.0.1, for which I will be pressing the Big Red > Button tomorrow. I will leave it to Laurent > to make a public announcement, using any > or all of the text below (but don't send anything > until I confirm its done, Laurent!). > > > ******************** > > After the P5 1.0 release on November 1st 2007, > the TEI Technical Council has continued to refine > the Guidelines and respond to error reports. > with over 300 sets of changes committed to Sourceforge. > > The vast majority of changes are to the text, > at the grammatical, technical, and explanatory > level. > > We would like to acknowledge here the > pre-eminent part played by Brett Zamir, > who has read every chapter carefully, > and made a huge number of important > corrections and clarifications. > > A very few changes have been made which > affect generated schemas: > > * model.gLike was added to the content model of <measureGrp> > * <ptr> was adjusted so that either @cRef or @target is mandatory > * an error generating schema from attribute classes was fixed > * some Schematron rules have been adjusted > > This release also includes a complete set of > reference documentation generated for Chinese, > French, German, Italian, Japanese and Spanish. > The translation work is not finished yet, but > is starting to be useable for these languages. > > For the first time, the Guidelines are available > in PDF as well as HTML. The design of this > printable format was a collaborative effort by > many members of the TEI Board of Directors > and Technical Council, coordinated and > implemented by Sebastian Rahtz. > > New releases of Roma and the TEI XSL stylesheet family > accompany this release, correcting reported > bugs and providing more internationalisation. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 5 07:26:24 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 12:26:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] 1.0.1 release text In-Reply-To: <91E3CC17-8328-4E58-8033-E380D7B3AC3E@loria.fr> References: <47A4D380.4070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <91E3CC17-8328-4E58-8033-E380D7B3AC3E@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47A855F0.3050302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Should not we provide pointers to the main pages concerned with this > announcement: Entry point to the guidelines, Roma, <measureGrp>, XSLT > update, etc. ? > Laurent Laurent, I'd include the change in att.naming of @ref taking multiple URIs in the list of things changed in this release. Although a corrigible error which was just corrected, it still is significant. (And we shouldn't be afraid of pointing out where we have corrected bugs...) Best, -James > > Le 2 f?vr. 08 ? 21:33, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > >> I propose the following as release notes for >> 1.0.1, for which I will be pressing the Big Red >> Button tomorrow. I will leave it to Laurent >> to make a public announcement, using any >> or all of the text below (but don't send anything >> until I confirm its done, Laurent!). >> >> >> ******************** >> >> After the P5 1.0 release on November 1st 2007, >> the TEI Technical Council has continued to refine >> the Guidelines and respond to error reports. >> with over 300 sets of changes committed to Sourceforge. >> >> The vast majority of changes are to the text, >> at the grammatical, technical, and explanatory >> level. >> >> We would like to acknowledge here the >> pre-eminent part played by Brett Zamir, >> who has read every chapter carefully, >> and made a huge number of important >> corrections and clarifications. >> >> A very few changes have been made which >> affect generated schemas: >> >> * model.gLike was added to the content model of <measureGrp> >> * <ptr> was adjusted so that either @cRef or @target is mandatory >> * an error generating schema from attribute classes was fixed >> * some Schematron rules have been adjusted >> >> This release also includes a complete set of >> reference documentation generated for Chinese, >> French, German, Italian, Japanese and Spanish. >> The translation work is not finished yet, but >> is starting to be useable for these languages. >> >> For the first time, the Guidelines are available >> in PDF as well as HTML. The design of this >> printable format was a collaborative effort by >> many members of the TEI Board of Directors >> and Technical Council, coordinated and >> implemented by Sebastian Rahtz. >> >> New releases of Roma and the TEI XSL stylesheet family >> accompany this release, correcting reported >> bugs and providing more internationalisation. >> >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> >> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Feb 5 10:46:00 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2008 08:46:00 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] 1.0.1 release text In-Reply-To: <91E3CC17-8328-4E58-8033-E380D7B3AC3E@loria.fr> References: <47A4D380.4070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <91E3CC17-8328-4E58-8033-E380D7B3AC3E@loria.fr> Message-ID: <1202226360.5294.7.camel@odonned-eng06> By the way: are we doing anything about the apparent error of not including gap as a child of subst? On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 12:36 +0100, Laurent Romary wrote: > Should not we provide pointers to the main pages concerned with this > announcement: Entry point to the guidelines, Roma, <measureGrp>, XSLT > update, etc. ? > Laurent > > Le 2 f?vr. 08 ? 21:33, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > > > I propose the following as release notes for > > 1.0.1, for which I will be pressing the Big Red > > Button tomorrow. I will leave it to Laurent > > to make a public announcement, using any > > or all of the text below (but don't send anything > > until I confirm its done, Laurent!). > > > > > > ******************** > > > > After the P5 1.0 release on November 1st 2007, > > the TEI Technical Council has continued to refine > > the Guidelines and respond to error reports. > > with over 300 sets of changes committed to Sourceforge. > > > > The vast majority of changes are to the text, > > at the grammatical, technical, and explanatory > > level. > > > > We would like to acknowledge here the > > pre-eminent part played by Brett Zamir, > > who has read every chapter carefully, > > and made a huge number of important > > corrections and clarifications. > > > > A very few changes have been made which > > affect generated schemas: > > > > * model.gLike was added to the content model of <measureGrp> > > * <ptr> was adjusted so that either @cRef or @target is mandatory > > * an error generating schema from attribute classes was fixed > > * some Schematron rules have been adjusted > > > > This release also includes a complete set of > > reference documentation generated for Chinese, > > French, German, Italian, Japanese and Spanish. > > The translation work is not finished yet, but > > is starting to be useable for these languages. > > > > For the first time, the Guidelines are available > > in PDF as well as HTML. The design of this > > printable format was a collaborative effort by > > many members of the TEI Board of Directors > > and Technical Council, coordinated and > > implemented by Sebastian Rahtz. > > > > New releases of Roma and the TEI XSL stylesheet family > > accompany this release, correcting reported > > bugs and providing more internationalisation. > > > > -- > > Sebastian Rahtz > > > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative <http://www.tei-c.org/> Director, Digital Medievalist Project <http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/> Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Feb 5 17:50:14 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 17:50:14 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 9 - Dictionaries In-Reply-To: <23579014-4FD4-4996-AF58-5393804EC834@loria.fr> References: <478F2941.4020205@yahoo.com> <47936956.9070009@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <200802040629.m146TSww025218@perseus.services.brown.edu> <23579014-4FD4-4996-AF58-5393804EC834@loria.fr> Message-ID: <18344.59430.259309.643589@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > One important thing to understand is the role of <cit> in P5 as a > generic container for any linguistic quotation/example refined by > linguistic or biliographical information. But that's precisely what I'm getting at, Laurent. I just don't understand why we expanded the semantics of <cit> to include this usage. > <cit type="translation" xml:lang="en"> > <quote>remoulade</quote> > <quote>r?moulade</quote> > <def>dressing containing mustard and herbs</def> > </cit> I'm afraid I don't quite understand what's going on, here. Of what is this a translation? > A more usual one is a translation that only applies in certain > grammatical or semantic circumstances: > <cit type="translation" xml:lang="fr"> > <quote>habilleur</quote> > <gen>m</gen> > </cit> OK, I understand completely why you would want to wrap a example quotation (here <quote>) with some grammatical information (here <gen>), but do not understand why <cit> is a good choice for this task. (And in case I sound argumentative, I am *not* saying <cit> is a bad choice -- since I don't understand it, I am not really in a position to judge it.) I'm I just being dense? Am I the only one who doesn't understand this? > And a more elaborate one when an example is provided with its > translation: > <cit type="example"> > <quote>she's a stylish <oRef/> > </quote> > <cit type="translation" xml:lang="fr"> > <quote>elle s'habille avec chic</quote> > </cit> > </cit> Wow. So to ascertain what "elle's ..." is a translation of, I look at its parent's sibling <quote>? Is that always the case? > You see that <quote> is always used as default element for the > phrase/ sentence, and would recommend this as good practices to > guaranty some homogeneity of such linguistic elements all over a > dictionary. Yes, this much makes sense to me. > So let's avoid <eg> in any case, and try to use the cit/quote > construction in a systematic way. OK, but I can almost guarantee you that when I come up against my next dictionary project (likely measured in months, not years, from now), I'll be knocking on your door ... From pfs-listmail at umich.edu Tue Feb 5 19:42:54 2008 From: pfs-listmail at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 19:42:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 9 - Dictionaries In-Reply-To: <18344.59430.259309.643589@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <478F2941.4020205@yahoo.com> <47936956.9070009@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <200802040629.m146TSww025218@perseus.services.brown.edu> <23579014-4FD4-4996-AF58-5393804EC834@loria.fr> <18344.59430.259309.643589@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802051938490.11269@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> >> And a more elaborate one when an example is provided with its >> translation: >> <cit type="example"> >> <quote>she's a stylish <oRef/> >> </quote> >> <cit type="translation" xml:lang="fr"> >> <quote>elle s'habille avec chic</quote> >> </cit> >> </cit> > > Wow. So to ascertain what "elle's ..." is a translation of, I look at > its parent's sibling <quote>? Is that always the case? Just to be clear, is this practice intended for use only in dictionaries? Or generally in running text? The pairing of example and translation (with or without bibliographical info) is after all one of the commonest things to find, practically everywhere. pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Feb 5 22:03:43 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 22:03:43 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] on citing the source or the encoded version (was "Re: the pdf guidelines, a battle not a war") In-Reply-To: <47876369.4000604@kcl.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47827DBC.2030606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47876369.4000604@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18345.9103.358565.663810@emt.wwp.brown.edu> The example with corresp=#COVE-eg-286, the example in section 2.5[1], and the example of @rend in the att.global tagdoc all come from actual WWP encoded texts, some w/ a bit of tweaking. Note ---- [1] Looking just now I realize this example is awful -- it has been converted from P4 to P5 syntax in a somewhat brute-force manner. I will update it soon, possibly within the next few hours. From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Feb 6 01:23:04 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 07:23:04 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 9 - Dictionaries In-Reply-To: <18344.59430.259309.643589@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <478F2941.4020205@yahoo.com> <47936956.9070009@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <200802040629.m146TSww025218@perseus.services.brown.edu> <23579014-4FD4-4996-AF58-5393804EC834@loria.fr> <18344.59430.259309.643589@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <1202278984.47a95248743e4@www.loria.fr> Selon Syd Bauman <Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu>: > > OK, but I can almost guarantee you that when I come up against my > next dictionary project (likely measured in months, not years, from > now), I'll be knocking on your door ... > > OK. Let us say it's the best strategy for the time being... Cheers, Laurent From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Feb 6 01:27:07 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 07:27:07 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 9 - Dictionaries In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802051938490.11269@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <478F2941.4020205@yahoo.com> <47936956.9070009@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <200802040629.m146TSww025218@perseus.services.brown.edu> <23579014-4FD4-4996-AF58-5393804EC834@loria.fr> <18344.59430.259309.643589@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802051938490.11269@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <1202279227.47a9533b4fe42@www.loria.fr> Selon "Paul F. Schaffner" <pfs-listmail at umich.edu>: > >> And a more elaborate one when an example is provided with its > >> translation: > >> <cit type="example"> > >> <quote>she's a stylish <oRef/> > >> </quote> > >> <cit type="translation" xml:lang="fr"> > >> <quote>elle s'habille avec chic</quote> > >> </cit> > >> </cit> > > > > Wow. So to ascertain what "elle's ..." is a translation of, I look at > > its parent's sibling <quote>? Is that always the case? > > Just to be clear, is this practice intended for use only in dictionaries? > Or generally in running text? The pairing of example and translation > (with or without bibliographical info) is after all one of the > commonest things to find, practically everywhere. > Exactly. And one of the rationale behind using <cit> in such constructs is to have a homogeneous representation with examples you would have in academic papers for instance, where you typically provide a quatation (or sample from a corpus) together with not only a source, but additional linguistic or scholarly constraint. having <cit> in both use cases is a way to make the guidelines more coherent in this respect. Laurent From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Feb 6 03:08:16 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 03:08:16 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] on citing the source or the encoded version In-Reply-To: <18345.9103.358565.663810@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47827DBC.2030606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47876369.4000604@kcl.ac.uk> <18345.9103.358565.663810@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <18345.27376.533793.737353@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > [1] Looking just now I realize this example is awful -- it has been > converted from P4 to P5 syntax in a somewhat brute-force manner. > I will update it soon, possibly within the next few hours. OK, I've replaced the example completely. In order to give the who= attribute someplace to point, I've also included the <titleStmt> with <respStmt>s in it. This means that the reader needs to wallow through quite a few lines of XML before getting to the part that we are actually trying to exemplify. What should I do about this? a) Nothing, it's a lovely self-contained example as is, readers should get used to reading a bit of XML b) Swap the order of events, putting the <respStmt> elements after the <revisionDesc> that is being exemplified, even though that would not be the normal order in a <teiHeader>. c) Make the <titleStmt> part a separate <egXML>, by putting some explanatory prose between 'em, i.e. something like: <egXML> /* <revisionDesc> part here */ </egXML> The @who attributes in the above example will typically point to either <respStmt> elements in the <titleStmt>, or <person> elements in the <profileDesc>. For example: <egXML> /* <titleStmt> or <listPerson> part here */ </egXML> d) Same as (c), but skip the 2nd example, just leaving pointers to nowhere in the <revisionDesc> example. If you're looking to see the example, it is #HD6. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Feb 6 03:12:52 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 03:12:52 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] jing doesn't like Schematron in Leopard? In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801061956560.12668@lister.ei.virginia.edu> References: <18303.53535.255761.204839@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0801061956560.12668@lister.ei.virginia.edu> Message-ID: <18345.27652.237091.918546@emt.wwp.brown.edu> David -- I followed your lead and did essentially the same thing, using the version of jing that came with oXygen rather than that installed by Fink, and lo and behold, problem gone. Thanks! P.S. One thing I did differently was to put echo "Warning: using ~/bin/jing, not /sw/bin/jing." > /dev/stderr in the ~/bin/jing executable, so that I have a reminder as to what is going on. Because the msg is sent to STDERR, it doesn't mess up the makefile's attempt to report the version From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Feb 6 03:30:36 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 03:30:36 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: <1199730592.5436.32.camel@odonned-eng06> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1199730592.5436.32.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <18345.28716.127258.746736@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > Lou's convinced me on everything below except the standards > business: can one not have international standards that are not > ISO? Indeed there are international standards that are not ISO. Some have even accused TEI of being one (although we deny it). IIRC, the only non-ISO international standard we refer to in the Guidelines is the SI, the international system of measurement. But the text Brett Zamir was pondering adding "ISO" to is from the <desc> element in the data.temporal.iso tagdoc, and at first glance I don't see any compelling reason to note that the international standard we're referring to is published by the ISO, or that it's number is 8601:2004, there in the <desc>. However, we should put that information *somewhere* in the tagdoc. Right now the <desc> has the title, but not the ISO 8601:2004 part, and the <remarks> refer to "ISO 8601", but not the title. They need to be associated somehow so the user new to international standards can easily figure out they're the same thing. If anyone has any opinions about how this should be rectified, speak up soon. Otherwise I'll make something up on my own later this week. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 04:36:18 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 09:36:18 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] on citing the source or the encoded version In-Reply-To: <18345.27376.533793.737353@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47827DBC.2030606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47876369.4000604@kcl.ac.uk> <18345.9103.358565.663810@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <18345.27376.533793.737353@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47A97F92.9030603@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > a) Nothing, it's a lovely self-contained example as is, readers > should get used to reading a bit of XML > +1 -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Feb 6 09:48:10 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 09:48:10 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] release of P5 to fix bug? In-Reply-To: <03AF7903F10BB64CA22CDF89EE5D80BA9B6117@EXCHCL2.uleth.ca> References: <477FB324.7010805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <03AF7903F10BB64CA22CDF89EE5D80BA9B6117@EXCHCL2.uleth.ca> Message-ID: <18345.51370.334681.92000@emt.wwp.brown.edu> SR> As you'll have seen on TEI-L, Jon Noring reported what turned out SR> to be a very serious bug in DTD fragment generation. It has gone SR> unspotted presumably because fewer people use the old SR> DOCTYPE-subset method these days. ... DO> I certainly would. I also don't think we need to apologise for DO> fixing serious bugs asap either though. I realize this has been fixed already (right?), but I'm curious: did this bug affect DTD generation in general (i.e., from an ODD file), or only affected stitching together DTD fragments in the old subset method? If the latter, I would hesitate to consider it a serious bug. IIRC, we agreed we should actively discourage users from doing this. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 09:51:54 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 14:51:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] release of P5 to fix bug? In-Reply-To: <18345.51370.334681.92000@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <477FB324.7010805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <03AF7903F10BB64CA22CDF89EE5D80BA9B6117@EXCHCL2.uleth.ca> <18345.51370.334681.92000@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47A9C98A.4090308@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > I realize this has been fixed already (right?), but I'm curious: did > this bug affect DTD generation in general (i.e., from an ODD file), > or only affected stitching together DTD fragments in the old subset > method? If the latter, I would hesitate to consider it a serious bug. > IIRC, we agreed we should actively discourage users from doing this. > the latter, yes. but I don't think we can have it both ways; if we generate the DTD subsets, they must be correct. Just because we deprecate them does not mean it is not a serious bug if they are broke. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 09:56:29 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 14:56:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] release of P5 1.0.1 Message-ID: <47A9CA9D.7010507@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Q. where is it? A. waiting on Chris R at Virginia to work out how to update a huge directory tree. It's already released on Sourceforge, of course, and as Debian packages. The delay on the web site is very frustrating. That poxy CMS system looks like a burden. Just so you know, no changes after last Sunday 1500 GMT approx are included. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Feb 6 12:42:04 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 12:42:04 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18345.61804.875856.8690@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > > 1.3.1.1.1 In reference to @n, it is said "Its value may be any > > string of characters". Should this be stated as being limited to > > non-whitespace characters? I see the definition in the schema as > > @n being of type "data.word", No, we shouldn't say the value of n= is limited to non-whitespace characters, because it's not :-) The value of n= is declared as 1 or more occurrences of 'data.word', separated by whitespace. Thus, whitespace is permitted inside the value. (And I believe the whitespace, although normalized before comparison against the schema for validity, is reported to the application w/o normalization, but I'm not 100% sure.) > > but I'm not familiar with the regular expression components which > > define it ((\p{L}|\p{N}|\p{P}|\p{S})+). For our purposes, the outer parens can be ignored, leaving us with the following (whitespace added for readability): ( \p{L} | \p{N} | \p{P} | \p{S} )+ The construction "\p{X}" is called a 'category escape', and means "all characters with Unicode property X" (roughly). As you probably already know, the vertical bar is a disjunction, the plus sign is for "one or more of the preceding pattern", and the parens group patterns as expected. So all that's left is to decode the Unicode properties: L = all letters N = all numbers P = all punctuation S = all symbols So this regular expression says "one or more of letters, numbers, punctuation, and symbols". Another way to look at it is to ask what characters are *not* allowed: no M = marks (includes the combining characters) no Z = separators (includes whitespace) no C = other (mostly control characters like ESC, BEL, and NUL) So most any character you'd ever actually want in a string is allowed, and probably a lot you wouldn't (like curly quotes, or MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF DIGIT ZERO :-). From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 12:26:47 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:26:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] on citing the source or the encoded version In-Reply-To: <47A97F92.9030603@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47827DBC.2030606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47876369.4000604@kcl.ac.uk> <18345.9103.358565.663810@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <18345.27376.533793.737353@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47A97F92.9030603@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47A9EDD7.8090104@kcl.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Syd Bauman wrote: >> a) Nothing, it's a lovely self-contained example as is, readers >> should get used to reading a bit of XML >> > +1 Agree. Looks much better now by the way. Arianna > -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 13:31:46 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 18:31:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] on citing the source or the encoded version In-Reply-To: <47A9EDD7.8090104@kcl.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47827DBC.2030606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47876369.4000604@kcl.ac.uk> <18345.9103.358565.663810@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <18345.27376.533793.737353@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47A97F92.9030603@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A9EDD7.8090104@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47A9FD12.2060003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Arianna Ciula wrote: > Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> Syd Bauman wrote: >> >>> a) Nothing, it's a lovely self-contained example as is, readers >>> should get used to reading a bit of XML >>> >>> >> +1 >> > > Agree. Looks much better now by the way. > > Arianna > > > FWIW, there is now a very similar but less detailed example in the reference documentation for <change>. See http://www.tei-c.org.uk/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-change.html Syd's changes were made too late for inclusion in this release. From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 13:42:07 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 18:42:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] on citing the source or the encoded version In-Reply-To: <47A9FD12.2060003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47827DBC.2030606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47876369.4000604@kcl.ac.uk> <18345.9103.358565.663810@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <18345.27376.533793.737353@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47A97F92.9030603@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A9EDD7.8090104@kcl.ac.uk> <47A9FD12.2060003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47A9FF7F.8090403@kcl.ac.uk> Lou's Laptop wrote: > FWIW, there is now a very similar but less detailed example in the > reference documentation for <change>. See > http://www.tei-c.org.uk/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-change.html > > Syd's changes were made too late for inclusion in this release. Indeed, I looked in the source to see it. The example on the specs is fine too (shouldn't <name>Brett Zamir</name> have an xml:id though?), but it is good sometimes to have a real -although longer- example of what URIs point to. Arianna -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 13:47:42 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 18:47:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] on citing the source or the encoded version In-Reply-To: <47A9FF7F.8090403@kcl.ac.uk> References: <478166D5.7040709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <478216B5.2040005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47822072.8010305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47827DBC.2030606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47876369.4000604@kcl.ac.uk> <18345.9103.358565.663810@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <18345.27376.533793.737353@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47A97F92.9030603@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A9EDD7.8090104@kcl.ac.uk> <47A9FD12.2060003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47A9FF7F.8090403@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47AA00CE.9010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Arianna Ciula wrote: > > > The example on the specs is fine too (shouldn't <name>Brett > Zamir</name> have an xml:id though?), the xml:id is on the <respStmt>, not the name in this case. We might have Brett named somewhere else, not as a proof reader, and the change relates only to him as proof reader. From pboot at xs4all.nl Wed Feb 6 15:52:07 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:52:07 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestions Message-ID: <47AA1DF7.2030006@xs4all.nl> As I said earlier, I cannot be with you in Thursday's conference call. Here are some thoughts about the agenda items Laurent mentioned. Outreach * Would it be a good idea to list national (or regional, or subject specific) contact persons on the website? The idea being that a someone starting out using TEI would have a name of somebody willing to give advice and pointers about how to get started? The contact persons would not necessarily have the time available to actually create an ODD file for them or teach them XML, but still, beginners would know someone willing to give initial guidance. Contact persons could be council members or other more or less experienced TEI users * Can we create a number of small but complete sample editions, hosted at the TEI site or elsewhere, where everything (XML, schema, ODD, stylesheets, documentation) is freely accessible and documented? I don't think this would overlap with 'TEI by example', which as I understand it will provide tutorials rather than full editions. * Many people still ask 'why should I bother with xml when I can put my text on a web page and be done with it?' Can't we create a book (or a perhaps a special issue of a TEI-friendly journal) with a number of articles that show the advantages of structured encoding for indexing, text analysis, publication, annotation, visualization, etc.? Organisation of the council * Shouldn't we have a searchable council mailing list? If needed, I believe I can set up a listserv list at surfnet.nl * But however important a mailing list is, I must confess that I personally can't really deal with the amount of interruption in one's day-to-day activities that fully participating in the discussions on the council mailing list seems to require. I'd much prefer making myself useful doing things that leave me, to some extent at least, in control of my own time. And one more thing: Extension of the Guidelines Peter Robinson has been circulating a proposal for facilitating distributed editions that implies the need for a number of new TEI attributes. These attributes would make it possible to create linkages between multiple versions of a single text, and as such facilitate an integrated presentation of related resources to users. It builds on the work done by Neel Smith for the Canonical Text Services Protocol. I think we should discuss with Peter how this might be implemented. All these suggestions are things I'd be willing to work on. Hope you have a profitable meeting, Peter From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 16:14:42 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:14:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestions In-Reply-To: <47AA1DF7.2030006@xs4all.nl> References: <47AA1DF7.2030006@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <47AA2342.3070008@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I'm not sure when I'll be able to join the call (it seems to have moved its time back two hours from what Sebastian told me) so I will just comment here on a couple of Peter's suggestions. Peter Boot wrote: > > * Many people still ask 'why should I bother with xml when I can put my > text on a web page and be done with it?' Can't we create a book (or a > perhaps a special issue of a TEI-friendly journal) with a number of > articles that show the advantages of structured encoding for indexing, > text analysis, publication, annotation, visualization, etc.? > > This has of course been done before -- but that's certainly no reason not to do it again. > Organisation of the council > > * Shouldn't we have a searchable council mailing list? If needed, I > believe I can set up a listserv list at surfnet.nl > I thought it was searchable? It's certainly archived. However, a listserv hosted at surfnet.nl might well be a bit more reliable than the council list has been for the last year or so! > > And one more thing: > Extension of the Guidelines > Peter Robinson has been circulating a proposal for facilitating > distributed editions that implies the need for a number of new TEI > attributes. These attributes would make it possible to create linkages > between multiple versions of a single text, and as such facilitate an > integrated presentation of related resources to users. It builds on the > work done by Neel Smith for the Canonical Text Services Protocol. I > think we should discuss with Peter how this might be implemented. > > I discussed this with Peter Robinson a few months back, and I think I persuaded him at that time that he didn't need all those extra attributes. But maybe his ideas have moved on since then. Certainly, I agree with you that it's an interesting idea worth pursuing, and we should actively seek a proposal from him or others interested in the idea. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 16:49:45 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:49:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] 1.0.1 Message-ID: <47AA2B79.5060702@oucs.ox.ac.uk> is now live on http://www.tei-c.org/, so you can send the email out now, Laurent. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 17:40:39 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:40:39 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestions In-Reply-To: <47AA2342.3070008@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47AA1DF7.2030006@xs4all.nl> <47AA2342.3070008@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47AA3767.2050708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou Burnard wrote: >> * Shouldn't we have a searchable council mailing list? If needed, I >> believe I can set up a listserv list at surfnet.nl >> > I thought it was searchable? It's certainly archived. However, a > listserv hosted at surfnet.nl might well be a bit more reliable than > the council list has been for the last year or so! The Council lists are archived in Virginia at: http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/ I don't believe the pipermail installation there is currently setup to allow searching. However, I do know that pipermail listservs can be searched (because I've found others elsewhere which can.) This may be a mailing-list by mailing-list setting, or an overall system setting, I don't know. While Peter's offer is generous, since we have been working on moving the online aspects of the TEI to virginia alongside the new website (and Roma, and Wiki migrations), it would seem strange to suddenly move the council archives somewhere else just as we'd finally got things going at virginia after lots of hard work. I'd humbly submit that the better course of action might be to have the council decide that they need searching of their mailing lists (which have only been publicly accessible for a couple years now) and if they are unable/unwilling to do it only then consider moving them somewhere else. (And in that case I'd suggest Brown (if willing) since TEI-L is there.) If you do need to search the archives at the moment, then since the pages are all indexed by google on a fairly regular basis then just do a site search which includes the council archives URL as a site, e.g.: "site:http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council Sanity Checker" This of course has the problems and limitations of any google search results, but I use a quick bookmarklet to search them occasionally to refresh my memory. > I discussed this with Peter Robinson a few months back, and I think I > persuaded him at that time that he didn't need all those extra > attributes. But maybe his ideas have moved on since then. Certainly, I > agree with you that it's an interesting idea worth pursuing, and we > should actively seek a proposal from him or others interested in the idea. I also discussed this matter with Peter Robinson, and suggested that if Lou's idea (of using the existing TEI canonical referencing system, I believe, for some of the needed attributes) wasn't acceptable, that it might be more useful to have these attributes in an entirely separate namespace, so that they could be used equally in other markup languages. (i.e. this <docbook:para> is from a second edition of a work where this <tei:p> has the first edition, and other such complicated things.) Of course, that leads to all sorts of other problems. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 6 18:59:55 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 23:59:55 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] 1.0.1 release text In-Reply-To: <91E3CC17-8328-4E58-8033-E380D7B3AC3E@loria.fr> References: <47A4D380.4070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <91E3CC17-8328-4E58-8033-E380D7B3AC3E@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47AA49FB.6090005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Should not we provide pointers to the main pages concerned with this > announcement: Entry point to the guidelines, Roma, <measureGrp>, XSLT > update, etc. ? the interesting points are Guidelines: http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/ Roma: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Roma/; http://www.tei-c.org/Roma/ in a day or so Sourceforge release: http://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/ Debian packages: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/teideb/ not sure what you mean about the <measureGrp>? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Feb 6 20:33:31 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 20:33:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Suggestions In-Reply-To: <47AA3767.2050708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47AA1DF7.2030006@xs4all.nl> <47AA2342.3070008@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47AA3767.2050708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802062024300.756@Sewell-iMac.local> On Wed, 6 Feb 2008, James Cummings wrote: > Lou Burnard wrote: >>> * Shouldn't we have a searchable council mailing list? If needed, I >>> believe I can set up a listserv list at surfnet.nl >>> >> I thought it was searchable? It's certainly archived. However, a >> listserv hosted at surfnet.nl might well be a bit more reliable than >> the council list has been for the last year or so! > > The Council lists are archived in Virginia at: > http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/ > I don't believe the pipermail installation there is currently setup to allow > searching. However, I do know that pipermail listservs can be searched (because > I've found others elsewhere which can.) This may be a mailing-list by > mailing-list setting, or an overall system setting, I don't know. This list was no doubt set up by John Unsworth originally. When he left IATH, it devolved upon Daniel Pitti. Shall I ask Daniel whether the list can be made searchable? It may be that they're planning to migrate the functions of list.village.virginia.edu over to the new server that is hosting the TEI website. (Just to clarify, Daniel Pitti and Chris Ruotolo are both with the Library at UVa; I am with the University Press at a totally different site. So I don't always know what they are up to, and vice-versa. But as we now all have official TEI Consortium roles I'll suggest that we put our heads together on a regular basis.) David S. -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Feb 6 20:46:29 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 20:46:29 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] conference call? Message-ID: <18346.25333.976906.98325@emt.wwp.brown.edu> My apologies if this has past me, but I certainly didn't see an announcement with an appropriate subject line. Is there a conference call tomorrow, and if so what time, and what are the connection instructions? From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Feb 6 20:50:11 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 20:50:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] conference call? In-Reply-To: <18346.25333.976906.98325@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <18346.25333.976906.98325@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802062048040.835@Sewell-iMac.local> Yes, 1300 GMT. Dan O'Donnell sent email about it directly to people, presumably so as not to have private info on the list archive. Syd, I'll forward that email to you in case you didn't get it. David On Wed, 6 Feb 2008, Syd Bauman wrote: > My apologies if this has past me, but I certainly didn't see an > announcement with an appropriate subject line. Is there a conference > call tomorrow, and if so what time, and what are the connection > instructions? > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Feb 6 21:21:43 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 21:21:43 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] conference call? In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802062048040.835@Sewell-iMac.local> References: <18346.25333.976906.98325@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802062048040.835@Sewell-iMac.local> Message-ID: <18346.27447.542193.78203@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > Yes, 1300 GMT. Dan O'Donnell sent email about it directly to > people, presumably so as not to have private info on the list > archive. > Syd, I'll forward that email to you in case you didn't get it. Thank you, David. Is there an agenda further than that which LR posted 2007-01-31T14:57+01? I think that would be parsed as follows: * Scope of council activities - Technical activities (bug correction, release plan, examplars, ODD), - outreaching, internationalization * Global organisation of the council - Editorial support, web maintenance * Preparation of the Galway meeting Is someone already assigned to take minutes? (I am unable to do so, and I may not be able to make the first part of the call at all.) From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Feb 7 01:57:26 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 07:57:26 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] conference call? In-Reply-To: <18346.27447.542193.78203@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <18346.25333.976906.98325@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802062048040.835@Sewell-iMac.local> <18346.27447.542193.78203@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <473CE2B0-53FE-483A-AC20-25278F5CA612@loria.fr> Nothing more specific, since it is my first telecon as chair and wanted to go through the main issue and select those relevant for the Galway meeting as a matter of fact. Laurent Le 7 f?vr. 08 ? 03:21, Syd Bauman a ?crit : >> Yes, 1300 GMT. Dan O'Donnell sent email about it directly to >> people, presumably so as not to have private info on the list >> archive. >> Syd, I'll forward that email to you in case you didn't get it. > > Thank you, David. Is there an agenda further than that which LR > posted 2007-01-31T14:57+01? I think that would be parsed as follows: > > * Scope of council activities > - Technical activities (bug correction, release plan, examplars, > ODD), > - outreaching, internationalization > * Global organisation of the council > - Editorial support, web maintenance > * Preparation of the Galway meeting > > > Is someone already assigned to take minutes? (I am unable to do so, > and I may not be able to make the first part of the call at all.) > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Feb 7 03:00:34 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:00:34 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Release 1.0.1 is now available References: <6C23D266-9655-4170-A880-9D7E1A90AAD5@loria.fr> Message-ID: <63054873-E163-4B54-A72E-C3048C01696F@loria.fr> Dear all, I have just tried to send a message on the TEI-L (see below) which does not seem to have gone through (but I did not receive any error message). Could someone at Brown check this? Best, Laurent D?but du message r?exp?di? : > De : Laurent Romary <laurent.romary at loria.fr> > Date : 7 f?vrier 2008 08:15:26 HNEC > ? : TEI-L at listserv.brown.edu > Objet : Release 1.0.1 is now available > > After the P5 1.0 release on November 1st 2007, the TEI Technical > Council has continued to refine the Guidelines and respond to error > reports, with over 300 sets of changes committed to Sourceforge. > > The vast majority of changes are to the text, at the grammatical, > technical, and explanatory level. > > We would like to acknowledge here the pre-eminent part played by > Brett Zamir, > who has read every chapter carefully, and made a huge number of > important corrections and clarifications. > > A very few changes have been made which affect generated schemas: > > * model.gLike was added to the content model of <measureGrp> > * <ptr> was adjusted so that either @cRef or @target is mandatory > * an error generating schema from attribute classes was fixed > * some Schematron rules have been adjusted > * the datatype of the @ref attribute in the att.naming class has > been changed to allow multiple URIs, which is taken to indicate the > single name refers to more than one referents > > This release also includes a complete set of reference > documentation generated for Chinese, French, German, Italian, > Japanese and Spanish. The translation work is not finished yet, but > is starting to be useable for these languages. > > For the first time, the Guidelines are available in PDF as well as > HTML. The design of this printable format was a collaborative > effort by many members of the TEI Board of Directors and Technical > Council, coordinated and implemented by Sebastian Rahtz. > > New releases of Roma and the TEI XSL stylesheet family accompany > this release, correcting reported bugs and providing more > internationalisation. > > Guidelines: http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/ > Roma: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Roma/; http://www.tei-c.org/Roma/ > (in a day or so) > Sourceforge release: http://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/ > Debian packages: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/teideb/ From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 7 03:12:08 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:12:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Release 1.0.1 is now available In-Reply-To: <63054873-E163-4B54-A72E-C3048C01696F@loria.fr> References: <6C23D266-9655-4170-A880-9D7E1A90AAD5@loria.fr> <63054873-E163-4B54-A72E-C3048C01696F@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47AABD58.2000205@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Dear all, > I have just tried to send a message on the TEI-L (see below) which > does not seem to have gone through (but I did not receive any error > message). Could someone at Brown check this? > Best, > Laurent Got through fine eventually (to me at least). Sometimes it just takes awhile. -James > > D?but du message r?exp?di? : > >> De : Laurent Romary <laurent.romary at loria.fr> >> Date : 7 f?vrier 2008 08:15:26 HNEC >> ? : TEI-L at listserv.brown.edu >> Objet : Release 1.0.1 is now available >> >> After the P5 1.0 release on November 1st 2007, the TEI Technical >> Council has continued to refine the Guidelines and respond to error >> reports, with over 300 sets of changes committed to Sourceforge. >> >> The vast majority of changes are to the text, at the grammatical, >> technical, and explanatory level. >> >> We would like to acknowledge here the pre-eminent part played by >> Brett Zamir, >> who has read every chapter carefully, and made a huge number of >> important corrections and clarifications. >> >> A very few changes have been made which affect generated schemas: >> >> * model.gLike was added to the content model of <measureGrp> >> * <ptr> was adjusted so that either @cRef or @target is mandatory >> * an error generating schema from attribute classes was fixed >> * some Schematron rules have been adjusted >> * the datatype of the @ref attribute in the att.naming class has >> been changed to allow multiple URIs, which is taken to indicate the >> single name refers to more than one referents >> >> This release also includes a complete set of reference >> documentation generated for Chinese, French, German, Italian, >> Japanese and Spanish. The translation work is not finished yet, but >> is starting to be useable for these languages. >> >> For the first time, the Guidelines are available in PDF as well as >> HTML. The design of this printable format was a collaborative >> effort by many members of the TEI Board of Directors and Technical >> Council, coordinated and implemented by Sebastian Rahtz. >> >> New releases of Roma and the TEI XSL stylesheet family accompany >> this release, correcting reported bugs and providing more >> internationalisation. >> >> Guidelines: http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/ >> Roma: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Roma/; http://www.tei-c.org/Roma/ >> (in a day or so) >> Sourceforge release: http://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/ >> Debian packages: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/teideb/ > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Feb 7 03:12:36 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:12:36 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Release 1.0.1 is now available In-Reply-To: <47AABD58.2000205@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <6C23D266-9655-4170-A880-9D7E1A90AAD5@loria.fr> <63054873-E163-4B54-A72E-C3048C01696F@loria.fr> <47AABD58.2000205@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <160CABAA-BE8C-47F6-AA97-7888C4FC69A5@loria.fr> OK. I just did not receive it myself... Thanks, Laurent Le 7 f?vr. 08 ? 09:12, James Cummings a ?crit : > Laurent Romary wrote: >> Dear all, >> I have just tried to send a message on the TEI-L (see below) >> which does not seem to have gone through (but I did not receive >> any error message). Could someone at Brown check this? >> Best, >> Laurent > > Got through fine eventually (to me at least). Sometimes it just > takes awhile. > > -James > >> D?but du message r?exp?di? : >>> De : Laurent Romary <laurent.romary at loria.fr> >>> Date : 7 f?vrier 2008 08:15:26 HNEC >>> ? : TEI-L at listserv.brown.edu >>> Objet : Release 1.0.1 is now available >>> >>> After the P5 1.0 release on November 1st 2007, the TEI Technical >>> Council has continued to refine the Guidelines and respond to >>> error reports, with over 300 sets of changes committed to >>> Sourceforge. >>> >>> The vast majority of changes are to the text, at the >>> grammatical, technical, and explanatory level. >>> >>> We would like to acknowledge here the pre-eminent part played by >>> Brett Zamir, >>> who has read every chapter carefully, and made a huge number of >>> important corrections and clarifications. >>> >>> A very few changes have been made which affect generated schemas: >>> >>> * model.gLike was added to the content model of <measureGrp> >>> * <ptr> was adjusted so that either @cRef or @target is mandatory >>> * an error generating schema from attribute classes was fixed >>> * some Schematron rules have been adjusted >>> * the datatype of the @ref attribute in the att.naming class has >>> been changed to allow multiple URIs, which is taken to indicate >>> the single name refers to more than one referents >>> >>> This release also includes a complete set of reference >>> documentation generated for Chinese, French, German, Italian, >>> Japanese and Spanish. The translation work is not finished yet, >>> but is starting to be useable for these languages. >>> >>> For the first time, the Guidelines are available in PDF as well >>> as HTML. The design of this printable format was a >>> collaborative effort by many members of the TEI Board of >>> Directors and Technical Council, coordinated and implemented by >>> Sebastian Rahtz. >>> >>> New releases of Roma and the TEI XSL stylesheet family accompany >>> this release, correcting reported bugs and providing more >>> internationalisation. >>> >>> Guidelines: http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/ >>> Roma: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Roma/; http://www.tei-c.org/Roma/ >>> (in a day or so) >>> Sourceforge release: http://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/ >>> Debian packages: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/teideb/ >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > -- > Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford > James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From laurent.romary at LORIA.FR Thu Feb 7 03:14:40 2008 From: laurent.romary at LORIA.FR (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 09:14:40 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Release 1.0.1 is now available References: <0AE953EA2585F9489240944C06669B290126F7B7@mailex.nkp.cz> Message-ID: <BA93BAA5-BDFE-4A04-ABBA-64272F26FA76@LORIA.FR> A first bug report! Best, Laurent D?but du message r?exp?di? : > De : Marek Jind?ich <Jindrich.Marek at nkp.cz> > Date : 7 f?vrier 2008 09:14:57 HNEC > ? : "Laurent Romary" <laurent.romary at LORIA.FR> > Objet : RE: Release 1.0.1 is now available > > The link to pdf file at http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/ > en/html/index.html is incorrect. the correct link is http://www.tei- > c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/Guidelines.pdf > > Best regards, > > Jind?ich Marek > Dept. of Manuscripts and Early Printed Books > National Library of the Czech Republic > http://www.nkp.cz > > -----Original Message----- > From: TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) public discussion list > [mailto:TEI-L at LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurent Romary > Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2008 8:15 AM > To: TEI-L at LISTSERV.BROWN.EDU > Subject: Release 1.0.1 is now available > > After the P5 1.0 release on November 1st 2007, the TEI Technical > Council has continued to refine the Guidelines and respond to error > reports, with over 300 sets of changes committed to Sourceforge. > > The vast majority of changes are to the text, at the grammatical, > technical, and explanatory level. > > We would like to acknowledge here the pre-eminent part played by > Brett Zamir, who has read every chapter carefully, and made a huge > number of important corrections and clarifications. > > A very few changes have been made which affect generated schemas: > > * model.gLike was added to the content model of <measureGrp> > * <ptr> was adjusted so that either @cRef or @target is mandatory > * an error generating schema from attribute classes was fixed > * some Schematron rules have been adjusted > * the datatype of the @ref attribute in the att.naming class has > been changed to allow multiple URIs, which is taken to indicate the > single name refers to more than one referents > > This release also includes a complete set of reference > documentation generated for Chinese, French, German, Italian, > Japanese and Spanish. > The translation work is not finished yet, but is starting to be > useable for these languages. > > For the first time, the Guidelines are available in PDF as well as > HTML. The design of this printable format was a collaborative > effort by many members of the TEI Board of Directors and Technical > Council, coordinated and implemented by Sebastian Rahtz. > > New releases of Roma and the TEI XSL stylesheet family accompany > this release, correcting reported bugs and providing more > internationalisation. > > Guidelines: http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/P5/ > Roma: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Roma/; http://www.tei-c.org/Roma/ > (in a day or so) Sourceforge release: http://sourceforge.net/ > projects/tei/ > Debian packages: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/teideb/ From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 7 03:54:50 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 08:54:50 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Suggestions In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802062024300.756@Sewell-iMac.local> References: <47AA1DF7.2030006@xs4all.nl> <47AA2342.3070008@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47AA3767.2050708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802062024300.756@Sewell-iMac.local> Message-ID: <47AAC75A.1060504@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > On Wed, 6 Feb 2008, James Cummings wrote: > This list was no doubt set up by John Unsworth originally. When he left IATH, it > devolved upon Daniel Pitti. Shall I ask Daniel whether the list can be > made searchable? This seems sensible to me. > (Just to clarify, Daniel Pitti and Chris Ruotolo are both with the Library at > UVa; I am with the University Press at a totally different site. So I don't > always know what they are up to, and vice-versa. But as we now all have > official TEI Consortium roles I'll suggest that we put our heads together > on a regular basis.) This also seems sensible to me. ;-) -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Feb 7 10:53:13 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 16:53:13 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] subst - gap In-Reply-To: <1202226360.5294.7.camel@odonned-eng06> References: <47A4D380.4070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <91E3CC17-8328-4E58-8033-E380D7B3AC3E@loria.fr> <1202226360.5294.7.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <EFE20799-B647-4C38-B689-0A3A2F03C399@loria.fr> Unless I have overlooked something I did not see this answered (BTW, is it in SF-trac?) Le 5 f?vr. 08 ? 16:46, Dan O'Donnell a ?crit : > By the way: are we doing anything about the apparent error of not > including gap as a child of subst? From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 7 11:04:19 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 16:04:19 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] subst - gap In-Reply-To: <EFE20799-B647-4C38-B689-0A3A2F03C399@loria.fr> References: <47A4D380.4070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <91E3CC17-8328-4E58-8033-E380D7B3AC3E@loria.fr> <1202226360.5294.7.camel@odonned-eng06> <EFE20799-B647-4C38-B689-0A3A2F03C399@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47AB2C03.6080301@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Unless I have overlooked something I did not see this answered (BTW, > is it in SF-trac?) > > Le 5 f?vr. 08 ? 16:46, Dan O'Donnell a ?crit : > >> By the way: are we doing anything about the apparent error of not >> including gap as a child of subst? I think the matter isn't clear cut and needs further investigation. The sourceforge feature request is at: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1883766&group_id=106328&atid=644065 or http://tinyurl.com/2w3h6f -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Feb 7 17:31:24 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 17:31:24 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18347.34492.533717.244286@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > > 1.3.1.1.2 - "The xml:lang attribute indicates the language, writing > > system, and character set associated with a given element and all its > > contents." Shouldn't this read something like "language, script, and > > regional or other variant associated with..."? (Same with the > > definition of data.language). > > > I am not sure why it refers to chatracter set, but I dont think > "script and regional or other variant" gains in precision on > "writing system" What do others think? I think "character set" is at least misleading, if not in error, and have removed it. I think Brett's suggested "script, and regional or other variant" *does* provide a gain in precision, a gain that I don't think we want here at all. We'd like to keep the prose here as abstract as we reasonably can, no? > > 1.5 (very end of chapter) - Do the RELAX NG null values need also > > to be in a particular order? Otherwise, it seems this information > > doesn't belong here according to the context (that the classes > > are arranged in order), unless there is a stronger transition. > > > Yes, I believe they do need to be declared first. I don't think they need to be declared first. I think if you open tei_bare.rnc and move the lines model.placeStateLike = notAllowed model.publicationStmtPart = notAllowed model.qLike = notAllowed to the end of the file, you still end up with a perfectly valid, usable schema. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 8 09:54:36 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 09:54:36 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] age= of <person> & <personGrp> Message-ID: <18348.27948.391443.358113@emt.wwp.brown.edu> This attribute is not mentioned anywhere in chapter 17 Names, Dates, People, and Places. It is demonstrated (without *any* prose discussion) once in 20.2.2 The Participants Description: <person sex="2" age="mid"> No useful documentation is provided for it in the <person> or <personGrp> tagdoc, and there is one example in the <person> tagdoc: <person sex="2" age="42"> BTW, the same person is being described in the two examples. The usage in 20.2.2 is what I expected: an alphanumeric string from a project-provided closed set of values that indicate age ranges of interest to the project's research. I can't understand why this attribute is declared as data.word instead of data.enumerated. The usage in the <person> tagdoc seems to me to be in error. But either way, the documentation should be much clearer. Although I don't feel I'm the most qualified to do this, I will be happy to take a first crack at it soon. (But if someone else wants the task, speak up!) From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 8 09:54:50 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 09:54:50 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] textual attrs (was "Re: Chapter 1") In-Reply-To: <4782EF4D.5020909@yahoo.com> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4782EF4D.5020909@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <18348.27962.807294.699475@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > >> 1.3.1.1 For the definition of xml:lang, it can not only indicate > >> the language of the element content, but also potentially of a > >> text attribute, no? > >> > > Only "potentially" because we have gone to some lengths to > > abolish "text" attributes. > > > So you'd rather not mention this because you're gradually > deprecating away the still-existing text attributes? Which still-existing text attributes? And remember, what we're talking about here are not attributes which can have textual content, into which category replacementPattern= and rend= fall, but rather about attributes that both contain text and have values that are expressed in a natural language. Off the top of my head I think there are only a few dictionary attributes and reason= that might still be "textual". But Let's have a look at the possible candidates; lists appended. (In those lists I use the parameter entity notation to indicate class names). So in truth, it may be worth mentioning that xml:lang= governs the natural language of attribute values as well. Can we have a volunteer from Council to go through these lists of attributes and for each note whether its value a) comes from a formal language or controlled vocabulary like replacementPattern= of <cRefPattern> or encoding= of <binaryObject> b) not (a), but nonetheless has nothing to do with a natural language, like delim= of <refState> or from= and to= of <locus> c) are problematic because they really may contain natural language phrases, like reason= of <supplied> d) something else? For convenience in performing this task, the following lists are sorted by the attribute class or element in which the attribute is defined. Attributes that have datatype of rng:text ---------- ---- ---- -------- -- -------- expand= of %att.lexicographic; norm= of %att.lexicographic; orig= of %att.lexicographic; split= of %att.lexicographic; value= of %att.lexicographic; replacementPattern= of <cRefPattern> delim= of <refState> Attributes whose datatype is some number of data.word ---------- ----- -------- -- ---- ------ -- --------- extent= of %att.damaged; sortKey= of %att.entryLike; n= of %att.global; rend= of %att.global; mimeType= of %att.internetMedia; commodity= of %att.measurement; targFunc= of %att.pointing.group; version= of %att.translatable; loc= of <app> name= of <attRef> encoding= of <binaryObject> assertedValue= of <certainty> lang= of <code> reason= of <gap> level= of <langKnown> from= of <locus> to= of <locus> baseForm= of <m> value= of <metSym> role= of <org> age= of <person> role= of <person> age= of <personGrp> size= of <personGrp> cRef= of <ptr> cRef= of <ref> label= of <rhyme> subtype= of <seg> reason= of <supplied> value= of <symbol> sortKey= of <term> reason= of <unclear> name= of <vLabel> lemma= of <w> Not directly relevant, but while I was at it I ascertained the following: Elements that contain <rng:text> somewhere in their content model -------- ---- ------- ---------- --------- -- ----- ------- ----- <att> <bibl> <binaryObject> <byline> <castItem> <catDesc> <change> <charName> <closer> <code> <date> <defaultVal> <dictScrap> <docImprint> <eg> <egXML> <entryFree> <etym> <form> <formula> <g> <geo> <gi> <glyphName> <gramGrp> <ident> <idno> <lem> <localName> <m> <measureGrp> <oVar> <opener> <origDate> <pVar> <postBox> <postCode> <rdg> <re> <sense> <series> <stringVal> <tag> <time> <u> <unicodeName> <val> <w> <xr> It seems to me there are at least a few cases that should probably be macro.xtext or data.name instead. I will try to investigate these over the weekend. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 8 10:04:24 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:04:24 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: <4782EF4D.5020909@yahoo.com> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4782EF4D.5020909@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <18348.28536.930571.987739@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > >> 1.4.2 - Mention that data.code is of the URI type? > >> > > we use the term data.pointer. > Ok, but I just meant that the other data types refer to a more > standard type. Maybe 'pointer' is clear that it can only be composed > of certain characters (e.g., no whitespace), but then again, maybe > not? "Pointer" may be ambiguous, but 'data.pointer' is the name of a TEI datatype that is unambiguously defined as a URI. (Although I just noticed that we still refer to RFC 2396, which has been replaced by RFC 3986. Sigh. I'll try to fix this shortly.) From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 8 10:53:27 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 10:53:27 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: <18348.28536.930571.987739@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4782EF4D.5020909@yahoo.com> <18348.28536.930571.987739@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <18348.31479.464983.561681@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > (Although I just noticed that we still refer to RFC 2396, which has > been replaced by RFC 3986. Sigh. I'll try to fix this shortly.) Done. I also made all references to RFCs consistently have whitespace between the "RFC" and the number. (In the English -- there is still one occurence in the Japanese description of xml:lang, which I don't want to fix as I don't know Japanese conventions. I note that this particular occurence has a lot of problems: it says "RFC3006" where it meant "RFC3066", but where we now refer to "BCP 47". Sebastian, who does the Japanese translating? This may be worth mentioning.) From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 8 12:11:57 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:11:57 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] age= of <person> & <personGrp> In-Reply-To: <18348.27948.391443.358113@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <18348.27948.391443.358113@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47AC8D5D.8060008@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > This attribute is not mentioned anywhere in chapter 17 Names, Dates, > People, and Places. It is demonstrated (without *any* prose > discussion) once in 20.2.2 The Participants Description: > <person sex="2" age="mid"> > No useful documentation is provided for it in the <person> or > <personGrp> tagdoc, and there is one example in the <person> tagdoc: > <person sex="2" age="42"> > BTW, the same person is being described in the two examples. > The tagdoc is in error, and I have now corrected it to match the prose. > The usage in 20.2.2 is what I expected: an alphanumeric string from a > project-provided closed set of values that indicate age ranges of > interest to the project's research. I can't understand why this > attribute is declared as data.word instead of data.enumerated. > > probably because the enumeration hasnt been formulated yet > The usage in the <person> tagdoc seems to me to be in error. > > But either way, the documentation should be much clearer. Although I > don't feel I'm the most qualified to do this, I will be happy to take > a first crack at it soon. (But if someone else wants the task, speak > up!) > I suggest you propose a suggested val|List as a sourceforge feature request. One could also argue that the attribute should be removed or renamed -- its original (P4) purpose has been rendered unnecessary by the availability of the more pfrecise <event> elements within <person> which is probably why it's not discussed in that chapter. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 8 12:19:24 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:19:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: <18348.31479.464983.561681@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4782EF4D.5020909@yahoo.com> <18348.28536.930571.987739@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <18348.31479.464983.561681@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47AC8F1C.10806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > > I note that this > particular occurence has a lot of problems: it says "RFC3006" where > it meant "RFC3066", but where we now refer to "BCP 47". Sebastian, > who does the Japanese translating? This may be worth mentioning.) OHYA Kazushi <ohyakazushi at gmail.com> -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 8 15:34:07 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:34:07 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] age= of <person> & <personGrp> In-Reply-To: <47AC8D5D.8060008@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <18348.27948.391443.358113@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47AC8D5D.8060008@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18348.48319.601339.232596@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > > This attribute is not mentioned anywhere in chapter 17 Names, > > Dates, People, and Places. It is demonstrated (without *any* > > prose discussion) once in 20.2.2 The Participants Description: > > <person sex="2" age="mid"> > > No useful documentation is provided for it in the <person> or > > <personGrp> tagdoc, and there is one example in the <person> > > tagdoc: > > <person sex="2" age="42"> > > BTW, the same person is being described in the two examples. > > > > The usage in the <person> tagdoc seems to me to be in error. > The tagdoc is in error, and I have now corrected it to match the > prose. Excellent, thanks. > > The usage in 20.2.2 is what I expected: an alphanumeric string > > from a project-provided closed set of values that indicate age > > ranges of interest to the project's research. I can't understand > > why this attribute is declared as data.word instead of > > data.enumerated. > > > probably because the enumeration hasnt been formulated yet This doesn't make much sense to me. We have agreed that 'data.enumerated' means that there should be a documented list of values, whether the TEI can provide a closed list, only an open list of suggestions, or has no suggestions at all. So the fact that we haven't come up with an enumeration yet should not stop us from using data.enumerated. In such a case its purpose is to signal to a TEI customizer that she should create a list. There are *lots* of attributes for which no enumeration has yet been formulated, or ever will be, that are data.enumerated. > > But either way, the documentation should be much clearer. > > Although I don't feel I'm the most qualified to do this, I will > > be happy to take a first crack at it soon. (But if someone else > > wants the task, speak up!) > > > > I suggest you propose a suggested val|List as a sourceforge feature > request. I am not sure a suggested value list is a good idea for this attribute. Each sociological research group is going to have its own set of age groups to which its research applies. Heck, even in little Rhode Island the medico-legal lawyers will consider 'adult' to start at age 16, the politicians consider 'adult' to start at age 18, and the liquor stores consider 'adult' to start at age 21! But I do think this may be a good opportunity to demonstrate the utility of generating a value list, and how to do so. > One could also argue that the attribute should be removed or > renamed -- its original (P4) purpose has been rendered unnecessary > by the availability of the more pfrecise <event> elements within > <person> which is probably why it's not discussed in that chapter. Indeed, age= is a bad name, that most people interpret as indicating a number of years. ageGroup= or ageBracket= or ageRef= or demographicAge= or ageDemographicallySpeaking= or ... From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 8 15:35:31 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 15:35:31 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Chapter 1 In-Reply-To: <47AC8F1C.10806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47726E2E.4080707@yahoo.com> <477FE6F2.50701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4782EF4D.5020909@yahoo.com> <18348.28536.930571.987739@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <18348.31479.464983.561681@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47AC8F1C.10806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18348.48403.306436.951949@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > OHYA Kazushi <ohyakazushi at gmail.com> Check, thanks Sebastian. I will send off an explanation shortly. From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Feb 8 16:21:33 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 16:21:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] report from Virginia Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802081201220.66963@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> I got together with Daniel Pitti and Chris Ruotolo today to update one another on our roles in various TEI Board and Council acitivities, and have a few things to report back. 1. Indeed, the machine hosting the Council email list (lists.village.virginia.edu) is an antique box, but the system administrator at IATH is in the middle of migrating its functions to the brand-new server that will be housed in the University computer center (with 24/7 maintenance and much less susceptible to power outage, etc.). Once that happens (sounds like within a week or two), reliability of the Council and Board email should be much improved. When the final migration happens, there will be several hours of downtime while the machine is physically moved, which will affect the TEI website and wiki as well. They'll provide ample notice on TEI-L and via email to the Board/Council lists. 2. Shayne, the IATH sysadmin, is going to look into adding full-text search to the tei-council archive. 3. I've agreed to take over from Daniel the job of list administrator for tei-board and tei-council, meaning that requests for address change, problem reports, etc., should come to me from now on. 4. Christine made a suggestion that as we create workgroups and assign Council responsibilities, someone on Council should be added to the committee overseeing the TEI website (Chris and Julia Flanders at the moment). David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Feb 9 20:52:26 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 20:52:26 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] age= of <person> & <personGrp> In-Reply-To: <18348.27948.391443.358113@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <18348.27948.391443.358113@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <18350.22746.640578.435961@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > But either way, the documentation should be much clearer. Although > I don't feel I'm the most qualified to do this, I will be happy to > take a first crack at it soon. (But if someone else wants the task, > speak up!) As no one spoke up, I've had a go at this. Changes: * role= and age= of <person> and <personGrp> are now all data.enumerated (they were a mixture of data.code and data.word+) * new paragraphs in NDPERSE (13.3.2) briefly explain the attributes on <person>, including an explanation that projects should create a value list for age=, and an example of such a <valList> * fixed examples in <particDesc> and <listPerson> tagdoc that had numeric values as value of age=. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 10 07:10:59 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:10:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] <tagUsage>, <tagsDecl> In-Reply-To: <47AE74C6.3050904@yahoo.com> References: <47A67C53.4080401@yahoo.com> <200802040627.m146RBYa026878@draco.services.brown.edu> <47AE74C6.3050904@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47AEE9D3.9030205@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Brett Zamir wrote: > If, as you say above, <namespace> is not required, then this line: > A TEI conformant document > is not required to contain a <gi>tagsDecl</gi> element, but if one > is present, it must contain <gi>tagUsage</gi> elements for each > distinct element marked within the associated <gi>text</gi>. > ...is not enforced by the schema, since I could still get by (as I'd > like) with <tagsDecl><rendition/></tagsDecl> without any <tagUsage>'s. > Unfortunately (imo), if you (as in TEI) are still requiring > <tagUsage>'s when <tagsDecl> is included (and not simply that one is > requiring <tagUsage>'s if <namespace> is included), you should > probably be requiring <namespace> too (contrary to the prose change > you say you made above), since that is necessary for <tagUsage>... > My apologies for overlooking this point the first time you made it. The passage you quote predates the introduction of <rendition> as an alternative option within <tagsDecl> and should have been updated. The passage now reads: A TEI conformant document is not required to provide any <gi>tagUsage</gi> elements, but if it does, then TEI recommended practice is to provide <gi>namespace</gi> and <gi>tagUsage</gi> elements for each distinct element and namespace used in the associated text. If, in addition, counts are specified by the <att>occurs</att> attributes, these must correspond with the number of such elements present in the document. which I hope is a bit clearer and more explicit. From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Feb 11 03:27:20 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 09:27:20 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] report from Virginia In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802081201220.66963@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802081201220.66963@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: <BE35DEF2-1051-47D9-8194-328F830EC17A@loria.fr> Hi David, Thanks a lot for the good feedback. Following our Telecon last week, I am not sure of the relevance of website committee, abd it should probably be an item for discussion in designing the council new organisation. Laurent Le 8 f?vr. 08 ? 22:21, David Sewell a ?crit : > I got together with Daniel Pitti and Chris Ruotolo today to update one > another on our roles in various TEI Board and Council acitivities, and > have a few things to report back. > > 1. Indeed, the machine hosting the Council email list > (lists.village.virginia.edu) is an antique box, but the system > administrator at IATH is in the middle of migrating its functions > to the > brand-new server that will be housed in the University computer center > (with 24/7 maintenance and much less susceptible to power outage, > etc.). > Once that happens (sounds like within a week or two), reliability > of the > Council and Board email should be much improved. > > When the final migration happens, there will be several hours of > downtime while the machine is physically moved, which will affect the > TEI website and wiki as well. They'll provide ample notice on TEI-L > and > via email to the Board/Council lists. > > 2. Shayne, the IATH sysadmin, is going to look into adding full-text > search to the tei-council archive. > > 3. I've agreed to take over from Daniel the job of list administrator > for tei-board and tei-council, meaning that requests for address > change, > problem reports, etc., should come to me from now on. > > 4. Christine made a suggestion that as we create workgroups and assign > Council responsibilities, someone on Council should be added to the > committee overseeing the TEI website (Chris and Julia Flanders at the > moment). > > David > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Feb 11 16:08:08 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:08:08 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] conference call? In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802062048040.835@Sewell-iMac.local> References: <18346.25333.976906.98325@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802062048040.835@Sewell-iMac.local> Message-ID: <1202764088.18900.113.camel@odonned-eng06> On Wed, 2008-02-06 at 20:50 -0500, David Sewell wrote: > Yes, 1300 GMT. Dan O'Donnell sent email about it directly to people, > presumably so as not to have private info on the list archive. Not really: it is just that highspeedconferencing happens to have a "remind people about this meeting" function, and I've got a list there with the council as well. Saves me copying out (and hence making mistakes in) the calling information. > > Syd, I'll forward that email to you in case you didn't get it. > > David > > On Wed, 6 Feb 2008, Syd Bauman wrote: > > > My apologies if this has past me, but I certainly didn't see an > > announcement with an appropriate subject line. Is there a conference > > call tomorrow, and if so what time, and what are the connection > > instructions? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative <http://www.tei-c.org/> Director, Digital Medievalist Project <http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/> Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Feb 13 11:33:52 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:33:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> All, Here is a preliminary text version of the minutes, which I'll plug into the XML template once it is final. Could everyone look it over and provide me with any necessary corrections or additional info? In particular: * search for '??' to see queries, mostly involving email list ownership * double-check attributions. I may not always have distinguished properly between Lou and Gabriel's voice (and possibly Sebastian once or twice), or between Paul and Dan. To give me better distinction in regional accents, I no doubt should have asked for ground rules at the start, e.g. "Lou, can we have you use a broad Scots dialect on this call, and Dan, could you emphasise the Canadian by doing either Bob and Doug McKenzie or Jean Chr?tien, your choice?" David ============== MINUTES OF TEI COUNCIL CONFERENCE CALL, 7 FEBRUARY 2008 Called to order 1300 UTC Participants: Gabriel Bodard (GB), Peter Boot (PB), Arianna Ciula (AC), James Cummings (JC), Syd Bauman (SB), Lou Burnard (LB), Dan O'Donnell (DO), Sebastian Rahtz (SR), David Sewell (DS; minutes), and Laurent Romary (LR; Chair). Unable to participate: Tone Bruvik, Elena Pierazzo, Manfred Thaller, and John Walsh. 1. Scope of Council Activities 1.1 Technical Activities 1.1.1 Guideline Status LR asks us to consider the current status of Guidelines. How are we handling updates and point releases? SR reminds us that he had raised the question of fixed release vs. varying bug-fix releases and had recommended a 2x per year schedule. GB, AC, and SB agreed that practice and consensus was for a fixed timetable. SR notes that the 1.0.1 release is a "release zero", not a 6-month release. LR concurs: the next release will be over the summer, unless serious bugs appear. JC notes that everyone has access to Sourceforge for intermediate stages. Should we have "stable/unstable" distinction? It's helpful for people to test releases. GB: there is a fixed date in TEI timetable, the November meeting. Shall we say there will always be a pre-release of next major release before Nov? JC asks about about numbering of releases, so people can cite the version of the Guidelines they are using. SR: the only way to do this is by release dates, where the date is the version number. LR notes that a release is more than just a source version on SourceForge, it involves a lot of checking. DO asks if someone could just write up a numbering language system for us to put on a Web page? A new version number will be added when there is an actual feature/module change, not just changes to Guidelines language. LR: can we stabilize a formulation? Releases every 6 months; a pre-release before the November meeting; unstable SourceForge branches are maintained and identified by SourceForge revision number. A "release" consists of the SourceForge update, creation of compiled packages and schemas, and an update of the Guidelines (LB). 1.1.2 Bug reporting LR asks about the current situation with the stability of the Guidelines? do we still have major bugs, or just tiny issues over next months? JC: it's not clear where bug reports are going any more. LB: it is clear we want bug reports to go to SourceForge, into the tracker. But we haven't agreed on: (1) how to make sure Council provides input, or who is responsible; (2) the way to build a workflow to take suggestions & deal with them. DO: this will be an important thing to discuss in Galway. LB: is this channel best way of soliciting input? SB: no, many people are scared by SourceForge. We need to have an email/list mechanism. LB: then at the point in discussion where there is general agreement, someone needs to write it up as a SourceForge feature request. LR notes the gap between TEI-L and TEI Council. DO: So we need formally to keep an eye on TEI-L, and put into SourceForge bug reports and feature requests from there. JC: shouldn't all Council members do this? DO: but it helps to have someone designated. LR agrees; at the Member's Meeting, we discussed the dropping of Guideline "editors", with work on them organized by Council, but I strongly recommend we provide editorial support. We should make sure that Oxford has stable editorial support. DO: the decision was made to increase flexibility, not to remove input from the current editors. There is no mandate for "editors" in the (TEI Consortium) Bylaws, but we can Bylaws mandate, but we can still assign certain tasks as needed. LR recommends that Board discuss this matter; we need an "air traffic controller". There followed some additional discussion on bug reporting/tracking procedures. DS suggests the possibility of a Wiki area on the TEI Wiki for bug discussion. SB suggests having a single email address for bug reports. DO objects that this creates multiple unofficial channels for bug reports. We don't want multiple lists. SB replies that we're going to have this no matter what. LB replies we can insist on paying attention only to 2 places and having bug reports sent to specified venues. Members disagree over whether that venue should be SourceForge, LB arguing yes, SB and AC saying no. JC says that if bugs are to be discussed on an email list, surely that should be TEI-L. AC notes some people don't understand the distinctions between the different venues. We need a mechanism to facilitate communication for less technically adept users. DO asks, why not have a volunteer from Council as facilitator? LR: there's a problem with having too many tools. Let's have a clear mechanism. TEI-L is a good place for all these discussions; let us not have lots of side discussions. DO(??): Okay, let's use SourceForge as our single location, with mechanisms for helping people report who don't use SourceForge. LR: there should be tutorials on how to report. If we reduce number of tools, people can be more aware of them. DO: it sounds like we have identified a need for a release secretary and a SourceForge secretary, and an editorial support group. 1.2 Outreach, Education 1.2.1 ODD LR begins by suggesting that "exemplars" and "ODD" are key word are key words. One of main ways we can offer entry into the TEI environment is by adding ready-made schemas. SR cautions that if we create exemplars by committee, it will be difficult to get results. SB says that the current crop of exemplars are good for creating ODDs, but not so good for tackling various tasks. We don't have sample schemas that are good for encoding. For example: we don't show how to use constraints. SR observes that an exemplar constraining types might not be useful for individual needs. TEI Tite and TEI Lite, on the other hand, are intended to "be used"; LB concurs that whatever the original intentions behind Lite were, it is used as an "off the shelf" product. GB: we don't want example ODDs, we want example projects. Peter Boot notes word "exemplar" is ambiguous, especially for non-English speakers; can we find a better term? [Note from DS: Peter is right, and this is true in English as well. The New Oxford Dictionary of English definition of "exemplar" is "a person or thing serving as a typical example or appropriate model". The latter sense is normative; the former is not.] LB: this is what the TEI by Example project was supposed to provide. Unfortunately it's not doing that. It would be good to have set of examples of how people have solved things. JC agrees: "case studies". PB says this is an issue of the scope of Council: instead of doing this ourselves, we should figure out how to liaise w/ other groups doing these activities. General agreement. LR asks, what is status of ODD? Should we focus on improvements to ODD features? SB: yes, but we should defer this so we can address other issues first. SR agrees; this isn't a core business of Council in 2008; we should treat it as a parallel activity. LR objects that this ODD is in fact essential to outreach, as many TEI communities can contribute via ODD modules. The importance of ODD means it should be on our agenda (even if we don't make changes). GB concurs that it may be a mistake to segregate ODD activity; customizing TEI is a basic activity. Any outreach/education will connect with ODD. SR: We don't want to send the message "here's the language to use, but we're going to change it". ODD is unusual because it is tied up with the software that implements it. 1.2.2. Other Outreach and Internationalization Goals LR: Within Council, we should find a way to relate to external projects connected with TEI. We will integrate results of other groups; some of us will have duties to interact with specific ones. "I see more and more requests for short introductions on specific topics and offering examples." We could provide consultation on these matters. DO agrees: this has always been Council's duty. For example, current funding proposals before the National Endowment for the Humanities include two very TEI-centric projects. LR: This is true of internationalization also. Question: how do we identify the groups with which Council should interact? LR suggests this is part of Council's activity. DO asks whether we should issue invitations for groups who want Council involvement. JC notes that when someone comes to TEI-L an asks "can someone help me?" we need to provide a name. DO says this will become more and more important in funding projects. LR concludes: we should systematize the responsibility of these "corresponding persons". This will be added to the Galway meeting agenda. 3. Global organization of Council 3.1 Communication The next discussion involved the TEI's communication platforms, specifically the TEI website and our mailing lists. LR notes a need for Council workgroups or people to oversee both. The Board has appointed a website workgroup that we can provide input to. LB notes that service over the past year from Council email list has not been good; the server has been down too often. JC asks whether it wouldn't make sense to have all TEI email lists hosted on tei-c.org? SB raises a difficulty: the main list TEI-L is run on commercial software. No alternative software that he is aware of supports that level of service. Can we find open-source software? LB says that TEI-L is working fine and is not the issue. But perhaps the tei-council list should be moved. Level of service is more important than whether or not all the lists are in one place. LR summarizes that we need to confirm ongoing support for the lists at Virginia, or explore the possibility of merging or moving list hosts. DS offers to confer with his Virginia colleagues on that status of the system hosting the lists. [He reported back that lists.village.virginia.edu, the host for the TEI Council and Board email lists, is indeed in the process of being merged with the new tei-c.org host, which will have 24/7 tech support; and the IATH system administrator is looking into adding full-text search on the tei-council list archive.] 3.2 Responsibilities LR moves on to a discussion of general TEI Consortium responsibilities and Council's part in them. DO raises the issue of who "has the keys" to different things: who has responsibility, for example, for the SourceForge repository, for www.tei-c.org., etc? Should we survey who controls the different things we use? LR: Yes. if we know for example that U of Virgina has responsibility for the website, we need to have a single contact person. Likewise with Oxford's editorial support. DO: we don't have a single list of responsibilities. We should maybe put together before Galway meeting: SourceForge, mailing lists, website, Wiki... who has the passwords and oversight. SB agrees that such an inventory is important. LR asks that all "keyholders" please send a note to DS for inclusion in the minutes. 3.2.1 "Keyholders" DS received the following information on keyholding responsibilities for TEI resources: Mailing Lists (active): @ Brown University: Syd Bauman default admin, plus others in parentheses TEI-L TEI-MEET TEI-MEMBERS (Veronika Lux) TEI-MS-SIG (Elena Pierazzo) TEI-MUSIC-SIG (Raffaele Viglianti, Gabriel Board, Dot Porter) TEI-OL-SIG (David Durand) TEI-SIGS (Susan Schreibman) TEI-SOM (David Durand) @ Indiana University TEILIB-L [who is admin??] @ New York University tei-presentation [who is admin??] @ Oxford [who is admin??] tei-chars tei-extensions tei-i18n tei-iso-fs tei-meta @ SourceForge [same admins as SourceForge repository??] tei-choice tei-ontology-sig @ University of Virginia, hosted at IATH (Daniel Pitti), list admin David Sewell: tei-board tei-council Membership Database: Veronica Lux (+ others??). Syd Bauman has r/o access. Perforce repository (at OUCS): Lou Burnard, chief administrator; others with r/w access are Syd Bauman, James Cummings, Sebastian Rahtz. Servers: www.tei-c.org.uk at Oxford, still used for Vault (Sebastian Rahtz and Lou Burnard) tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk, used for test Roma and Guidelines (Sebastian Rahtz) -- including Debian repository, administered by Sebastian Rahtz www.tei-c.org at U of Virginia, main TEI server, administered by Daniel Pitti SourceForge: Project admins are Syd Bauman, Lou Burnard, Sebastian Rahtz. As of these minutes, there are a total of 14 developers (with rights to update source), list viewable at https://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php?group_id=106328. TEI Live CD source: owned by Sebastian Rahtz TEI Website (on www.tei-c.org): administered by Christine Ruotolo. Other people with read/write access to the OpenCMS repository used for the website: Lou Burnard, Sebastian Rahtz(??). TEI Wiki administrators: James Cummings (Council), Piotr Banski, Kevin Hawkins, Sebastian Rahtz. The system administrator in charge is Shayne Brandon of IATH at UVa. 4. Preparation for Galway meeting LR: Dates for the meeting are fixed, April 2-4. On Wednesday the 2nd there will be a symposium organized by Malte Rehbein, who has issued a Call for Papers. The Council meeting proper will take place on the 3rd and 4th. We don't have a specific plan for Council members to participate in the symposium, but it is expected that we will attend and contribute. AC says that the organizers are focusing on presentations from the Irish TEI community. They will see how many local presentations they have and will then ask Council if they need supplementation. Susan Schreibman is the contact person/organizer. LR notes that we have a group hotel rate, so no need to worry about lodging. We'll plan to start the Council meeting early on Thursday, and to end by 4 p.m. Friday afternoon. DO will post to tei-council about arrangements. Information about Council funding of the meeting is on the TEI Wiki: http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/TEI-Council-FAQ#What_funding_is_available_for_Council_Activities.3F -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Feb 13 11:50:48 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 09:50:48 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> Looks good to me. I think it is an accurate reflection of the general thrust of the discussion: there were one or two places where I thought "is that really what x said?" but I think we wouldn't be able to get more accurate without a meta-meeting and the conclusions are, as far as I'm aware, all accurate. I saw a couple of dittographies of a couple of words but now I can't find them. The question-marked attributions to me are all things I'm willing to have said ;) -dan On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 11:33 -0500, David Sewell wrote: > All, > > Here is a preliminary text version of the minutes, which I'll plug into > the XML template once it is final. Could everyone look it over and > provide me with any necessary corrections or additional info? In > particular: > > * search for '??' to see queries, mostly involving email list ownership > > * double-check attributions. I may not always have distinguished > properly between Lou and Gabriel's voice (and possibly Sebastian once or > twice), or between Paul and Dan. To give me better distinction in > regional accents, I no doubt should have asked for ground rules at the > start, e.g. "Lou, can we have you use a broad Scots dialect on this > call, and Dan, could you emphasise the Canadian by doing either Bob and > Doug McKenzie or Jean Chr?tien, your choice?" > > David > > ============== > > MINUTES OF TEI COUNCIL CONFERENCE CALL, 7 FEBRUARY 2008 > > Called to order 1300 UTC > > Participants: > > Gabriel Bodard (GB), Peter Boot (PB), Arianna Ciula (AC), James Cummings > (JC), Syd Bauman (SB), Lou Burnard (LB), Dan O'Donnell (DO), Sebastian > Rahtz (SR), David Sewell (DS; minutes), and Laurent Romary (LR; Chair). > > Unable to participate: > > Tone Bruvik, Elena Pierazzo, Manfred Thaller, and John Walsh. > > 1. Scope of Council Activities > > 1.1 Technical Activities > > 1.1.1 Guideline Status > > LR asks us to consider the current status of Guidelines. How are we > handling updates and point releases? SR reminds us that he had raised the > question of fixed release vs. varying bug-fix releases and had > recommended a 2x per year schedule. GB, AC, and SB agreed that practice and > consensus was for a fixed timetable. SR notes that the 1.0.1 release is > a "release zero", not a 6-month release. LR concurs: the next release > will be over the summer, unless serious bugs appear. JC notes that > everyone has access to Sourceforge for intermediate stages. > > Should we have "stable/unstable" distinction? It's helpful for people to > test releases. > GB: there is a fixed date in TEI timetable, the November meeting. Shall we say > there will always be a pre-release of next major release before Nov? > > JC asks about about numbering of releases, so people can cite the > version of the Guidelines they are using. SR: the only way to do this is > by release dates, where the date is the version number. LR notes that a > release is more than just a source version on SourceForge, it involves a > lot of checking. DO asks if someone could just write up a numbering > language system for us to put on a Web page? A new version number will > be added when there is an actual feature/module change, not just changes > to Guidelines language. > > LR: can we stabilize a formulation? > > Releases every 6 months; a pre-release before the November > meeting; unstable SourceForge branches are maintained and identified > by SourceForge revision number. A "release" consists of the > SourceForge update, creation of compiled packages and schemas, and an > update of the Guidelines (LB). > > 1.1.2 Bug reporting > > LR asks about the current situation with the stability of the > Guidelines? do we still have major bugs, or just tiny issues over next > months? JC: it's not clear where bug reports are going any more. LB: it > is clear we want bug reports to go to SourceForge, into the tracker. > But we haven't agreed on: (1) how to make sure Council provides input, > or who is responsible; (2) the way to build a workflow to take > suggestions & deal with them. DO: this will be an important thing to > discuss in Galway. LB: is this channel best way of soliciting input? SB: > no, many people are scared by SourceForge. We need to have an email/list > mechanism. LB: then at the point in discussion where there is general > agreement, someone needs to write it up as a SourceForge feature > request. LR notes the gap between TEI-L and TEI Council. DO: So we need > formally to keep an eye on TEI-L, and put into SourceForge bug reports > and feature requests from there. JC: shouldn't all Council members do > this? DO: but it helps to have someone designated. LR agrees; at the > Member's Meeting, we discussed the dropping of Guideline "editors", with > work on them organized by Council, but I strongly recommend we provide > editorial support. We should make sure that Oxford has stable editorial > support. DO: the decision was made to increase flexibility, not to > remove input from the current editors. There is no mandate for > "editors" in the (TEI Consortium) Bylaws, but we can Bylaws mandate, but > we can still assign certain tasks as needed. > > LR recommends that Board discuss this matter; we need an "air traffic > controller". > > There followed some additional discussion on bug reporting/tracking > procedures. DS suggests the possibility of a Wiki area on the TEI Wiki > for bug discussion. SB suggests having a single email address for bug > reports. DO objects that this creates multiple unofficial channels for > bug reports. We don't want multiple lists. SB replies that we're going > to have this no matter what. LB replies we can insist on paying > attention only to 2 places and having bug reports sent to specified > venues. Members disagree over whether that venue should be SourceForge, > LB arguing yes, SB and AC saying no. JC says that if bugs are to be > discussed on an email list, surely that should be TEI-L. AC notes some > people don't understand the distinctions between the different venues. > We need a mechanism to facilitate communication for less technically > adept users. DO asks, why not have a volunteer from Council as > facilitator? > > LR: there's a problem with having too many tools. Let's have a clear > mechanism. TEI-L is a good place for all these discussions; let us not > have lots of side discussions. > > DO(??): Okay, let's use SourceForge as our single location, with > mechanisms for helping people report who don't use SourceForge. LR: > there should be tutorials on how to report. If we reduce number of > tools, people can be more aware of them. > > DO: it sounds like we have identified a need for a release secretary and > a SourceForge secretary, and an editorial support group. > > 1.2 Outreach, Education > > 1.2.1 ODD > > LR begins by suggesting that "exemplars" and "ODD" are key word are key > words. One of main ways we can offer entry into the TEI environment is > by adding ready-made schemas. SR cautions that if we create exemplars by > committee, it will be difficult to get results. SB says that the current > crop of exemplars are good for creating ODDs, but not so good for > tackling various tasks. We don't have sample schemas that are good for > encoding. For example: we don't show how to use constraints. SR observes > that an exemplar constraining types might not be useful for individual > needs. TEI Tite and TEI Lite, on the other hand, are intended to "be > used"; LB concurs that whatever the original intentions behind Lite > were, it is used as an "off the shelf" product. GB: we don't want > example ODDs, we want example projects. Peter Boot notes word > "exemplar" is ambiguous, especially for non-English speakers; can we > find a better term? [Note from DS: Peter is right, and this is true in > English as well. The New Oxford Dictionary of English definition of > "exemplar" is "a person or thing serving as a typical example or > appropriate model". The latter sense is normative; the former is not.] > > LB: this is what the TEI by Example project was supposed to provide. > Unfortunately it's not doing that. It would be good to have set of > examples of how people have solved things. JC agrees: "case studies". > PB says this is an issue of the scope of Council: instead of doing this > ourselves, we should figure out how to liaise w/ other groups doing > these activities. General agreement. > > LR asks, what is status of ODD? Should we focus on improvements to ODD > features? SB: yes, but we should defer this so we can address other > issues first. SR agrees; this isn't a core business of Council in 2008; > we should treat it as a parallel activity. LR objects that this ODD is > in fact essential to outreach, as many TEI communities can contribute > via ODD modules. The importance of ODD means it should be on our agenda > (even if we don't make changes). GB concurs that it may be a mistake to > segregate ODD activity; customizing TEI is a basic activity. Any > outreach/education will connect with ODD. > > SR: We don't want to send the message "here's the language to use, but > we're going to change it". ODD is unusual because it is tied up with the > software that implements it. > > 1.2.2. Other Outreach and Internationalization Goals > > LR: Within Council, we should find a way to relate to external projects > connected with TEI. We will integrate results of other groups; some of > us will have duties to interact with specific ones. "I see more and more > requests for short introductions on specific topics and offering > examples." We could provide consultation on these matters. DO agrees: > this has always been Council's duty. For example, current funding > proposals before the National Endowment for the Humanities include two > very TEI-centric projects. > > LR: This is true of internationalization also. > > Question: how do we identify the groups with which Council should > interact? LR suggests this is part of Council's activity. DO asks > whether we should issue invitations for groups who want Council > involvement. JC notes that when someone comes to TEI-L an asks "can > someone help me?" we need to provide a name. DO says this will become > more and more important in funding projects. > > LR concludes: we should systematize the responsibility of these > "corresponding persons". This will be added to the Galway meeting > agenda. > > 3. Global organization of Council > > 3.1 Communication > > The next discussion involved the TEI's communication platforms, > specifically the TEI website and our mailing lists. LR notes a need for > Council workgroups or people to oversee both. The Board has appointed a > website workgroup that we can provide input to. > > LB notes that service over the past year from Council email list has not > been good; the server has been down too often. JC asks whether it > wouldn't make sense to have all TEI email lists hosted on tei-c.org? SB > raises a difficulty: the main list TEI-L is run on commercial software. > No alternative software that he is aware of supports that level of > service. Can we find open-source software? LB says that TEI-L is > working fine and is not the issue. But perhaps the tei-council list > should be moved. Level of service is more important than whether or not > all the lists are in one place. > > LR summarizes that we need to confirm ongoing support for the lists at > Virginia, or explore the possibility of merging or moving list hosts. > DS offers to confer with his Virginia colleagues on that status of the > system hosting the lists. [He reported back that > lists.village.virginia.edu, the host for the TEI Council and Board email > lists, is indeed in the process of being merged with the new tei-c.org > host, which will have 24/7 tech support; and the IATH system > administrator is looking into adding full-text search on the tei-council > list archive.] > > 3.2 Responsibilities > > LR moves on to a discussion of general TEI Consortium responsibilities > and Council's part in them. DO raises the issue of who "has the keys" to > different things: who has responsibility, for example, for the > SourceForge repository, for www.tei-c.org., etc? Should we survey who > controls the different things we use? LR: Yes. if we know for example > that U of Virgina has responsibility for the website, we need to have a > single contact person. Likewise with Oxford's editorial support. DO: we > don't have a single list of responsibilities. We should maybe put > together before Galway meeting: SourceForge, mailing lists, website, > Wiki... who has the passwords and oversight. SB agrees that such an > inventory is important. LR asks that all "keyholders" please send a note > to DS for inclusion in the minutes. > > 3.2.1 "Keyholders" > > DS received the following information on keyholding responsibilities for > TEI resources: > > Mailing Lists (active): > > @ Brown University: Syd Bauman default admin, plus others in > parentheses > > TEI-L > TEI-MEET > TEI-MEMBERS (Veronika Lux) > TEI-MS-SIG (Elena Pierazzo) > TEI-MUSIC-SIG (Raffaele Viglianti, Gabriel Board, Dot Porter) > TEI-OL-SIG (David Durand) > TEI-SIGS (Susan Schreibman) > TEI-SOM (David Durand) > > @ Indiana University > > TEILIB-L [who is admin??] > > @ New York University > > tei-presentation [who is admin??] > > @ Oxford [who is admin??] > > tei-chars > tei-extensions > tei-i18n > tei-iso-fs > tei-meta > > @ SourceForge [same admins as SourceForge repository??] > > tei-choice > tei-ontology-sig > > @ University of Virginia, hosted at IATH (Daniel Pitti), list admin > David Sewell: > > tei-board > tei-council > > > Membership Database: > > Veronica Lux (+ others??). Syd Bauman has r/o access. > > Perforce repository (at OUCS): > > Lou Burnard, chief administrator; others with r/w access are Syd > Bauman, James Cummings, Sebastian Rahtz. > > Servers: > > www.tei-c.org.uk at Oxford, still used for Vault (Sebastian Rahtz > and Lou Burnard) > tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk, used for test Roma and Guidelines (Sebastian Rahtz) > -- including Debian repository, administered by Sebastian Rahtz > www.tei-c.org at U of Virginia, main TEI server, administered by > Daniel Pitti > > SourceForge: > > Project admins are Syd Bauman, Lou Burnard, Sebastian Rahtz. As of > these minutes, there are a total of 14 developers (with rights to > update source), list viewable at > https://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php?group_id=106328. > > TEI Live CD source: owned by Sebastian Rahtz > > TEI Website (on www.tei-c.org): > > administered by Christine Ruotolo. Other people with read/write > access to the OpenCMS repository used for the website: Lou Burnard, > Sebastian Rahtz(??). > > TEI Wiki administrators: > > James Cummings (Council), Piotr Banski, Kevin Hawkins, Sebastian > Rahtz. The system administrator in charge is Shayne Brandon of IATH > at UVa. > > 4. Preparation for Galway meeting > > LR: Dates for the meeting are fixed, April 2-4. On Wednesday the 2nd > there will be a symposium organized by Malte Rehbein, who has issued a > Call for Papers. The Council meeting proper will take place on the 3rd > and 4th. We don't have a specific plan for Council members to > participate in the symposium, but it is expected that we will attend and > contribute. AC says that the organizers are focusing on presentations > from the Irish TEI community. They will see how many local > presentations they have and will then ask Council if they need > supplementation. Susan Schreibman is the contact person/organizer. LR > notes that we have a group hotel rate, so no need to worry about > lodging. We'll plan to start the Council meeting early on Thursday, and > to end by 4 p.m. Friday afternoon. DO will post to tei-council about > arrangements. > > Information about Council funding of the meeting is on the TEI Wiki: > > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/TEI-Council-FAQ#What_funding_is_available_for_Council_Activities.3F > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 13 12:00:06 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:00:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: <47B32216.6020208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > 3.2.1 "Keyholders" > > @ Oxford [who is admin??] > > tei-chars > tei-extensions > tei-i18n > tei-iso-fs > tei-meta > Lou or I are admins for all of them > @ SourceForge [same admins as SourceForge repository??] > > tei-choice > tei-ontology-sig > yes, same admins > TEI Website (on www.tei-c.org): > > administered by Christine Ruotolo. Other people with read/write > access to the OpenCMS repository used for the website: Lou Burnard, > Sebastian Rahtz(??). > yes, I have write access > TEI Wiki administrators: > > James Cummings (Council), Piotr Banski, Kevin Hawkins, Sebastian > Rahtz. The system administrator in charge is Shayne Brandon of IATH > at UVa. > take my name off here, I haven't touched it for ages... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Feb 13 13:52:35 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:52:35 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: <47B33C73.3040803@kcl.ac.uk> Thanks for this David; one comment only: David Sewell wrote: AC says that the organizers are focusing on presentations > from the Irish TEI community. They will see how many local > presentations they have and will then ask Council if they need > supplementation. Susan Schreibman is the contact person/organizer. I probably haven't made this clear enough, but the contact and organiser is Malte Rehbein (malte.rehbein at nuigalway.ie). Susan is moving to Ireland to take an important post as head of the Digital Humanities Observatory and, as member of the board, has coordinated with me, Dan and Sebastian the original discussion with Malte when there wasn't a council chair yet and we couldn't commit to a date. I think Malte definitely wants someone from the council to speak on the 2nd, but probably prefers to give priority to submitted papers as much as possible....which suits me. Arianna > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Feb 13 14:12:32 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 12:12:32 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B33C73.3040803@kcl.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47B33C73.3040803@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1202929953.6834.36.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 18:52 +0000, Arianna Ciula wrote: > Thanks for this David; one comment only: > > David Sewell wrote: > AC says that the organizers are focusing on presentations > > from the Irish TEI community. They will see how many local > > presentations they have and will then ask Council if they need > > supplementation. Susan Schreibman is the contact person/organizer. > > I probably haven't made this clear enough, but the contact and organiser > is Malte Rehbein (malte.rehbein at nuigalway.ie). Susan is moving to > Ireland to take an important post as head of the Digital Humanities > Observatory and, as member of the board, has coordinated with me, Dan > and Sebastian the original discussion with Malte when there wasn't a > council chair yet and we couldn't commit to a date. > > I think Malte definitely wants someone from the council to speak on the > 2nd, but probably prefers to give priority to submitted papers as much > as possible....which suits me. Susan told me that malte and Laurent have discussed this since our last meeting as well? > > Arianna > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From pboot at xs4all.nl Wed Feb 13 15:26:46 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:26:46 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: <47B35286.1020807@xs4all.nl> I'm surprised at finding my name among the participants, as (as I announced) I couldn't take part in the conference call! Peter David Sewell schreef: > All, > > Here is a preliminary text version of the minutes, which I'll plug into > the XML template once it is final. Could everyone look it over and > provide me with any necessary corrections or additional info? In > particular: > > * search for '??' to see queries, mostly involving email list ownership > > * double-check attributions. I may not always have distinguished > properly between Lou and Gabriel's voice (and possibly Sebastian once or > twice), or between Paul and Dan. To give me better distinction in > regional accents, I no doubt should have asked for ground rules at the > start, e.g. "Lou, can we have you use a broad Scots dialect on this > call, and Dan, could you emphasise the Canadian by doing either Bob and > Doug McKenzie or Jean Chr?tien, your choice?" > > David > > ============== > > MINUTES OF TEI COUNCIL CONFERENCE CALL, 7 FEBRUARY 2008 > > Called to order 1300 UTC > > Participants: > > Gabriel Bodard (GB), Peter Boot (PB), Arianna Ciula (AC), James Cummings > (JC), Syd Bauman (SB), Lou Burnard (LB), Dan O'Donnell (DO), Sebastian > Rahtz (SR), David Sewell (DS; minutes), and Laurent Romary (LR; Chair). > > Unable to participate: > > Tone Bruvik, Elena Pierazzo, Manfred Thaller, and John Walsh. > > 1. Scope of Council Activities > > 1.1 Technical Activities > > 1.1.1 Guideline Status > > LR asks us to consider the current status of Guidelines. How are we > handling updates and point releases? SR reminds us that he had raised the > question of fixed release vs. varying bug-fix releases and had > recommended a 2x per year schedule. GB, AC, and SB agreed that practice and > consensus was for a fixed timetable. SR notes that the 1.0.1 release is > a "release zero", not a 6-month release. LR concurs: the next release > will be over the summer, unless serious bugs appear. JC notes that > everyone has access to Sourceforge for intermediate stages. > > Should we have "stable/unstable" distinction? It's helpful for people to > test releases. > GB: there is a fixed date in TEI timetable, the November meeting. Shall we say > there will always be a pre-release of next major release before Nov? > > JC asks about about numbering of releases, so people can cite the > version of the Guidelines they are using. SR: the only way to do this is > by release dates, where the date is the version number. LR notes that a > release is more than just a source version on SourceForge, it involves a > lot of checking. DO asks if someone could just write up a numbering > language system for us to put on a Web page? A new version number will > be added when there is an actual feature/module change, not just changes > to Guidelines language. > > LR: can we stabilize a formulation? > > Releases every 6 months; a pre-release before the November > meeting; unstable SourceForge branches are maintained and identified > by SourceForge revision number. A "release" consists of the > SourceForge update, creation of compiled packages and schemas, and an > update of the Guidelines (LB). > > 1.1.2 Bug reporting > > LR asks about the current situation with the stability of the > Guidelines? do we still have major bugs, or just tiny issues over next > months? JC: it's not clear where bug reports are going any more. LB: it > is clear we want bug reports to go to SourceForge, into the tracker. > But we haven't agreed on: (1) how to make sure Council provides input, > or who is responsible; (2) the way to build a workflow to take > suggestions & deal with them. DO: this will be an important thing to > discuss in Galway. LB: is this channel best way of soliciting input? SB: > no, many people are scared by SourceForge. We need to have an email/list > mechanism. LB: then at the point in discussion where there is general > agreement, someone needs to write it up as a SourceForge feature > request. LR notes the gap between TEI-L and TEI Council. DO: So we need > formally to keep an eye on TEI-L, and put into SourceForge bug reports > and feature requests from there. JC: shouldn't all Council members do > this? DO: but it helps to have someone designated. LR agrees; at the > Member's Meeting, we discussed the dropping of Guideline "editors", with > work on them organized by Council, but I strongly recommend we provide > editorial support. We should make sure that Oxford has stable editorial > support. DO: the decision was made to increase flexibility, not to > remove input from the current editors. There is no mandate for > "editors" in the (TEI Consortium) Bylaws, but we can Bylaws mandate, but > we can still assign certain tasks as needed. > > LR recommends that Board discuss this matter; we need an "air traffic > controller". > > There followed some additional discussion on bug reporting/tracking > procedures. DS suggests the possibility of a Wiki area on the TEI Wiki > for bug discussion. SB suggests having a single email address for bug > reports. DO objects that this creates multiple unofficial channels for > bug reports. We don't want multiple lists. SB replies that we're going > to have this no matter what. LB replies we can insist on paying > attention only to 2 places and having bug reports sent to specified > venues. Members disagree over whether that venue should be SourceForge, > LB arguing yes, SB and AC saying no. JC says that if bugs are to be > discussed on an email list, surely that should be TEI-L. AC notes some > people don't understand the distinctions between the different venues. > We need a mechanism to facilitate communication for less technically > adept users. DO asks, why not have a volunteer from Council as > facilitator? > > LR: there's a problem with having too many tools. Let's have a clear > mechanism. TEI-L is a good place for all these discussions; let us not > have lots of side discussions. > > DO(??): Okay, let's use SourceForge as our single location, with > mechanisms for helping people report who don't use SourceForge. LR: > there should be tutorials on how to report. If we reduce number of > tools, people can be more aware of them. > > DO: it sounds like we have identified a need for a release secretary and > a SourceForge secretary, and an editorial support group. > > 1.2 Outreach, Education > > 1.2.1 ODD > > LR begins by suggesting that "exemplars" and "ODD" are key word are key > words. One of main ways we can offer entry into the TEI environment is > by adding ready-made schemas. SR cautions that if we create exemplars by > committee, it will be difficult to get results. SB says that the current > crop of exemplars are good for creating ODDs, but not so good for > tackling various tasks. We don't have sample schemas that are good for > encoding. For example: we don't show how to use constraints. SR observes > that an exemplar constraining types might not be useful for individual > needs. TEI Tite and TEI Lite, on the other hand, are intended to "be > used"; LB concurs that whatever the original intentions behind Lite > were, it is used as an "off the shelf" product. GB: we don't want > example ODDs, we want example projects. Peter Boot notes word > "exemplar" is ambiguous, especially for non-English speakers; can we > find a better term? [Note from DS: Peter is right, and this is true in > English as well. The New Oxford Dictionary of English definition of > "exemplar" is "a person or thing serving as a typical example or > appropriate model". The latter sense is normative; the former is not.] > > LB: this is what the TEI by Example project was supposed to provide. > Unfortunately it's not doing that. It would be good to have set of > examples of how people have solved things. JC agrees: "case studies". > PB says this is an issue of the scope of Council: instead of doing this > ourselves, we should figure out how to liaise w/ other groups doing > these activities. General agreement. > > LR asks, what is status of ODD? Should we focus on improvements to ODD > features? SB: yes, but we should defer this so we can address other > issues first. SR agrees; this isn't a core business of Council in 2008; > we should treat it as a parallel activity. LR objects that this ODD is > in fact essential to outreach, as many TEI communities can contribute > via ODD modules. The importance of ODD means it should be on our agenda > (even if we don't make changes). GB concurs that it may be a mistake to > segregate ODD activity; customizing TEI is a basic activity. Any > outreach/education will connect with ODD. > > SR: We don't want to send the message "here's the language to use, but > we're going to change it". ODD is unusual because it is tied up with the > software that implements it. > > 1.2.2. Other Outreach and Internationalization Goals > > LR: Within Council, we should find a way to relate to external projects > connected with TEI. We will integrate results of other groups; some of > us will have duties to interact with specific ones. "I see more and more > requests for short introductions on specific topics and offering > examples." We could provide consultation on these matters. DO agrees: > this has always been Council's duty. For example, current funding > proposals before the National Endowment for the Humanities include two > very TEI-centric projects. > > LR: This is true of internationalization also. > > Question: how do we identify the groups with which Council should > interact? LR suggests this is part of Council's activity. DO asks > whether we should issue invitations for groups who want Council > involvement. JC notes that when someone comes to TEI-L an asks "can > someone help me?" we need to provide a name. DO says this will become > more and more important in funding projects. > > LR concludes: we should systematize the responsibility of these > "corresponding persons". This will be added to the Galway meeting > agenda. > > 3. Global organization of Council > > 3.1 Communication > > The next discussion involved the TEI's communication platforms, > specifically the TEI website and our mailing lists. LR notes a need for > Council workgroups or people to oversee both. The Board has appointed a > website workgroup that we can provide input to. > > LB notes that service over the past year from Council email list has not > been good; the server has been down too often. JC asks whether it > wouldn't make sense to have all TEI email lists hosted on tei-c.org? SB > raises a difficulty: the main list TEI-L is run on commercial software. > No alternative software that he is aware of supports that level of > service. Can we find open-source software? LB says that TEI-L is > working fine and is not the issue. But perhaps the tei-council list > should be moved. Level of service is more important than whether or not > all the lists are in one place. > > LR summarizes that we need to confirm ongoing support for the lists at > Virginia, or explore the possibility of merging or moving list hosts. > DS offers to confer with his Virginia colleagues on that status of the > system hosting the lists. [He reported back that > lists.village.virginia.edu, the host for the TEI Council and Board email > lists, is indeed in the process of being merged with the new tei-c.org > host, which will have 24/7 tech support; and the IATH system > administrator is looking into adding full-text search on the tei-council > list archive.] > > 3.2 Responsibilities > > LR moves on to a discussion of general TEI Consortium responsibilities > and Council's part in them. DO raises the issue of who "has the keys" to > different things: who has responsibility, for example, for the > SourceForge repository, for www.tei-c.org., etc? Should we survey who > controls the different things we use? LR: Yes. if we know for example > that U of Virgina has responsibility for the website, we need to have a > single contact person. Likewise with Oxford's editorial support. DO: we > don't have a single list of responsibilities. We should maybe put > together before Galway meeting: SourceForge, mailing lists, website, > Wiki... who has the passwords and oversight. SB agrees that such an > inventory is important. LR asks that all "keyholders" please send a note > to DS for inclusion in the minutes. > > 3.2.1 "Keyholders" > > DS received the following information on keyholding responsibilities for > TEI resources: > > Mailing Lists (active): > > @ Brown University: Syd Bauman default admin, plus others in > parentheses > > TEI-L > TEI-MEET > TEI-MEMBERS (Veronika Lux) > TEI-MS-SIG (Elena Pierazzo) > TEI-MUSIC-SIG (Raffaele Viglianti, Gabriel Board, Dot Porter) > TEI-OL-SIG (David Durand) > TEI-SIGS (Susan Schreibman) > TEI-SOM (David Durand) > > @ Indiana University > > TEILIB-L [who is admin??] > > @ New York University > > tei-presentation [who is admin??] > > @ Oxford [who is admin??] > > tei-chars > tei-extensions > tei-i18n > tei-iso-fs > tei-meta > > @ SourceForge [same admins as SourceForge repository??] > > tei-choice > tei-ontology-sig > > @ University of Virginia, hosted at IATH (Daniel Pitti), list admin > David Sewell: > > tei-board > tei-council > > > Membership Database: > > Veronica Lux (+ others??). Syd Bauman has r/o access. > > Perforce repository (at OUCS): > > Lou Burnard, chief administrator; others with r/w access are Syd > Bauman, James Cummings, Sebastian Rahtz. > > Servers: > > www.tei-c.org.uk at Oxford, still used for Vault (Sebastian Rahtz > and Lou Burnard) > tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk, used for test Roma and Guidelines (Sebastian Rahtz) > -- including Debian repository, administered by Sebastian Rahtz > www.tei-c.org at U of Virginia, main TEI server, administered by > Daniel Pitti > > SourceForge: > > Project admins are Syd Bauman, Lou Burnard, Sebastian Rahtz. As of > these minutes, there are a total of 14 developers (with rights to > update source), list viewable at > https://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php?group_id=106328. > > TEI Live CD source: owned by Sebastian Rahtz > > TEI Website (on www.tei-c.org): > > administered by Christine Ruotolo. Other people with read/write > access to the OpenCMS repository used for the website: Lou Burnard, > Sebastian Rahtz(??). > > TEI Wiki administrators: > > James Cummings (Council), Piotr Banski, Kevin Hawkins, Sebastian > Rahtz. The system administrator in charge is Shayne Brandon of IATH > at UVa. > > 4. Preparation for Galway meeting > > LR: Dates for the meeting are fixed, April 2-4. On Wednesday the 2nd > there will be a symposium organized by Malte Rehbein, who has issued a > Call for Papers. The Council meeting proper will take place on the 3rd > and 4th. We don't have a specific plan for Council members to > participate in the symposium, but it is expected that we will attend and > contribute. AC says that the organizers are focusing on presentations > from the Irish TEI community. They will see how many local > presentations they have and will then ask Council if they need > supplementation. Susan Schreibman is the contact person/organizer. LR > notes that we have a group hotel rate, so no need to worry about > lodging. We'll plan to start the Council meeting early on Thursday, and > to end by 4 p.m. Friday afternoon. DO will post to tei-council about > arrangements. > > Information about Council funding of the meeting is on the TEI Wiki: > > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/TEI-Council-FAQ#What_funding_is_available_for_Council_Activities.3F > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From jawalsh at indiana.edu Wed Feb 13 16:35:51 2008 From: jawalsh at indiana.edu (John A. Walsh) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:35:51 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B35286.1020807@xs4all.nl> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47B35286.1020807@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <E125FDC9-3DBE-4821-B0FB-DE12021E755F@indiana.edu> And I was a participant. Maybe David had me confused with Peter, although our accents are quite different. :-) John -- | John A. Walsh | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | www: <http://www.slis.indiana.edu/faculty/jawalsh/> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 <mailto:jawalsh at indiana.edu> On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Peter Boot wrote: > I'm surprised at finding my name among the participants, as (as I > announced) I couldn't take part in the conference call! > > Peter > > David Sewell schreef: >> All, >> >> Here is a preliminary text version of the minutes, which I'll plug >> into >> the XML template once it is final. Could everyone look it over and >> provide me with any necessary corrections or additional info? In >> particular: >> >> * search for '??' to see queries, mostly involving email list >> ownership >> >> * double-check attributions. I may not always have distinguished >> properly between Lou and Gabriel's voice (and possibly Sebastian >> once or >> twice), or between Paul and Dan. To give me better distinction in >> regional accents, I no doubt should have asked for ground rules at >> the >> start, e.g. "Lou, can we have you use a broad Scots dialect on this >> call, and Dan, could you emphasise the Canadian by doing either Bob >> and >> Doug McKenzie or Jean Chr?tien, your choice?" >> >> David >> >> ============== >> >> MINUTES OF TEI COUNCIL CONFERENCE CALL, 7 FEBRUARY 2008 >> >> Called to order 1300 UTC >> >> Participants: >> >> Gabriel Bodard (GB), Peter Boot (PB), Arianna Ciula (AC), James >> Cummings >> (JC), Syd Bauman (SB), Lou Burnard (LB), Dan O'Donnell (DO), >> Sebastian >> Rahtz (SR), David Sewell (DS; minutes), and Laurent Romary (LR; >> Chair). >> >> Unable to participate: >> >> Tone Bruvik, Elena Pierazzo, Manfred Thaller, and John >> Walsh. >> >> 1. Scope of Council Activities >> >> 1.1 Technical Activities >> >> 1.1.1 Guideline Status >> >> LR asks us to consider the current status of Guidelines. How are >> we >> handling updates and point releases? SR reminds us that he had >> raised the >> question of fixed release vs. varying bug-fix releases and had >> recommended a 2x per year schedule. GB, AC, and SB agreed that >> practice and >> consensus was for a fixed timetable. SR notes that the 1.0.1 >> release is >> a "release zero", not a 6-month release. LR concurs: the next >> release >> will be over the summer, unless serious bugs appear. JC notes that >> everyone has access to Sourceforge for intermediate stages. >> >> Should we have "stable/unstable" distinction? It's helpful for >> people to >> test releases. >> GB: there is a fixed date in TEI timetable, the November >> meeting. Shall we say >> there will always be a pre-release of next major release before >> Nov? >> >> JC asks about about numbering of releases, so people can cite the >> version of the Guidelines they are using. SR: the only way to do >> this is >> by release dates, where the date is the version number. LR >> notes that a >> release is more than just a source version on SourceForge, it >> involves a >> lot of checking. DO asks if someone could just write up a >> numbering >> language system for us to put on a Web page? A new version >> number will >> be added when there is an actual feature/module change, not just >> changes >> to Guidelines language. >> >> LR: can we stabilize a formulation? >> >> Releases every 6 months; a pre-release before the November >> meeting; unstable SourceForge branches are maintained and >> identified >> by SourceForge revision number. A "release" consists of the >> SourceForge update, creation of compiled packages and >> schemas, and an >> update of the Guidelines (LB). >> >> 1.1.2 Bug reporting >> >> LR asks about the current situation with the stability of the >> Guidelines? do we still have major bugs, or just tiny issues >> over next >> months? JC: it's not clear where bug reports are going any more. >> LB: it >> is clear we want bug reports to go to SourceForge, into the >> tracker. >> But we haven't agreed on: (1) how to make sure Council provides >> input, >> or who is responsible; (2) the way to build a workflow to take >> suggestions & deal with them. DO: this will be an important >> thing to >> discuss in Galway. LB: is this channel best way of soliciting >> input? SB: >> no, many people are scared by SourceForge. We need to have an >> email/list >> mechanism. LB: then at the point in discussion where there is >> general >> agreement, someone needs to write it up as a SourceForge feature >> request. LR notes the gap between TEI-L and TEI Council. DO: So >> we need >> formally to keep an eye on TEI-L, and put into SourceForge bug >> reports >> and feature requests from there. JC: shouldn't all Council >> members do >> this? DO: but it helps to have someone designated. LR agrees; >> at the >> Member's Meeting, we discussed the dropping of Guideline >> "editors", with >> work on them organized by Council, but I strongly recommend we >> provide >> editorial support. We should make sure that Oxford has stable >> editorial >> support. DO: the decision was made to increase flexibility, not >> to >> remove input from the current editors. There is no mandate for >> "editors" in the (TEI Consortium) Bylaws, but we can Bylaws >> mandate, but >> we can still assign certain tasks as needed. >> >> LR recommends that Board discuss this matter; we need an "air >> traffic >> controller". >> >> There followed some additional discussion on bug reporting/ >> tracking >> procedures. DS suggests the possibility of a Wiki area on the >> TEI Wiki >> for bug discussion. SB suggests having a single email address >> for bug >> reports. DO objects that this creates multiple unofficial >> channels for >> bug reports. We don't want multiple lists. SB replies that >> we're going >> to have this no matter what. LB replies we can insist on paying >> attention only to 2 places and having bug reports sent to >> specified >> venues. Members disagree over whether that venue should be >> SourceForge, >> LB arguing yes, SB and AC saying no. JC says that if bugs are to >> be >> discussed on an email list, surely that should be TEI-L. AC >> notes some >> people don't understand the distinctions between the different >> venues. >> We need a mechanism to facilitate communication for less >> technically >> adept users. DO asks, why not have a volunteer from Council as >> facilitator? >> >> LR: there's a problem with having too many tools. Let's have a >> clear >> mechanism. TEI-L is a good place for all these discussions; let >> us not >> have lots of side discussions. >> >> DO(??): Okay, let's use SourceForge as our single location, with >> mechanisms for helping people report who don't use SourceForge. >> LR: >> there should be tutorials on how to report. If we reduce number >> of >> tools, people can be more aware of them. >> >> DO: it sounds like we have identified a need for a release >> secretary and >> a SourceForge secretary, and an editorial support group. >> >> 1.2 Outreach, Education >> >> 1.2.1 ODD >> >> LR begins by suggesting that "exemplars" and "ODD" are key word >> are key >> words. One of main ways we can offer entry into the TEI >> environment is >> by adding ready-made schemas. SR cautions that if we create >> exemplars by >> committee, it will be difficult to get results. SB says that the >> current >> crop of exemplars are good for creating ODDs, but not so good for >> tackling various tasks. We don't have sample schemas that are >> good for >> encoding. For example: we don't show how to use constraints. SR >> observes >> that an exemplar constraining types might not be useful for >> individual >> needs. TEI Tite and TEI Lite, on the other hand, are intended to >> "be >> used"; LB concurs that whatever the original intentions behind >> Lite >> were, it is used as an "off the shelf" product. GB: we don't want >> example ODDs, we want example projects. Peter Boot notes word >> "exemplar" is ambiguous, especially for non-English speakers; >> can we >> find a better term? [Note from DS: Peter is right, and this is >> true in >> English as well. The New Oxford Dictionary of English definition >> of >> "exemplar" is "a person or thing serving as a typical example or >> appropriate model". The latter sense is normative; the former is >> not.] >> >> LB: this is what the TEI by Example project was supposed to >> provide. >> Unfortunately it's not doing that. It would be good to have set of >> examples of how people have solved things. JC agrees: "case >> studies". >> PB says this is an issue of the scope of Council: instead of >> doing this >> ourselves, we should figure out how to liaise w/ other groups >> doing >> these activities. General agreement. >> >> LR asks, what is status of ODD? Should we focus on improvements >> to ODD >> features? SB: yes, but we should defer this so we can address >> other >> issues first. SR agrees; this isn't a core business of Council >> in 2008; >> we should treat it as a parallel activity. LR objects that this >> ODD is >> in fact essential to outreach, as many TEI communities can >> contribute >> via ODD modules. The importance of ODD means it should be on our >> agenda >> (even if we don't make changes). GB concurs that it may be a >> mistake to >> segregate ODD activity; customizing TEI is a basic activity. Any >> outreach/education will connect with ODD. >> >> SR: We don't want to send the message "here's the language to >> use, but >> we're going to change it". ODD is unusual because it is tied up >> with the >> software that implements it. >> >> 1.2.2. Other Outreach and Internationalization Goals >> >> LR: Within Council, we should find a way to relate to external >> projects >> connected with TEI. We will integrate results of other groups; >> some of >> us will have duties to interact with specific ones. "I see more >> and more >> requests for short introductions on specific topics and offering >> examples." We could provide consultation on these matters. DO >> agrees: >> this has always been Council's duty. For example, current funding >> proposals before the National Endowment for the Humanities >> include two >> very TEI-centric projects. >> >> LR: This is true of internationalization also. >> >> Question: how do we identify the groups with which Council should >> interact? LR suggests this is part of Council's activity. DO asks >> whether we should issue invitations for groups who want Council >> involvement. JC notes that when someone comes to TEI-L an asks >> "can >> someone help me?" we need to provide a name. DO says this will >> become >> more and more important in funding projects. >> >> LR concludes: we should systematize the responsibility of these >> "corresponding persons". This will be added to the Galway meeting >> agenda. >> >> 3. Global organization of Council >> >> 3.1 Communication >> >> The next discussion involved the TEI's communication platforms, >> specifically the TEI website and our mailing lists. LR notes a >> need for >> Council workgroups or people to oversee both. The Board has >> appointed a >> website workgroup that we can provide input to. >> >> LB notes that service over the past year from Council email list >> has not >> been good; the server has been down too often. JC asks whether it >> wouldn't make sense to have all TEI email lists hosted on tei- >> c.org? SB >> raises a difficulty: the main list TEI-L is run on commercial >> software. >> No alternative software that he is aware of supports that level of >> service. Can we find open-source software? LB says that TEI-L is >> working fine and is not the issue. But perhaps the tei-council >> list >> should be moved. Level of service is more important than whether >> or not >> all the lists are in one place. >> >> LR summarizes that we need to confirm ongoing support for the >> lists at >> Virginia, or explore the possibility of merging or moving list >> hosts. >> DS offers to confer with his Virginia colleagues on that status >> of the >> system hosting the lists. [He reported back that >> lists.village.virginia.edu, the host for the TEI Council and >> Board email >> lists, is indeed in the process of being merged with the new tei- >> c.org >> host, which will have 24/7 tech support; and the IATH system >> administrator is looking into adding full-text search on the tei- >> council >> list archive.] >> >> 3.2 Responsibilities >> >> LR moves on to a discussion of general TEI Consortium >> responsibilities >> and Council's part in them. DO raises the issue of who "has the >> keys" to >> different things: who has responsibility, for example, for the >> SourceForge repository, for www.tei-c.org., etc? Should we >> survey who >> controls the different things we use? LR: Yes. if we know for >> example >> that U of Virgina has responsibility for the website, we need to >> have a >> single contact person. Likewise with Oxford's editorial support. >> DO: we >> don't have a single list of responsibilities. We should maybe put >> together before Galway meeting: SourceForge, mailing lists, >> website, >> Wiki... who has the passwords and oversight. SB agrees that such >> an >> inventory is important. LR asks that all "keyholders" please >> send a note >> to DS for inclusion in the minutes. >> >> 3.2.1 "Keyholders" >> >> DS received the following information on keyholding >> responsibilities for >> TEI resources: >> >> Mailing Lists (active): >> >> @ Brown University: Syd Bauman default admin, plus others in >> parentheses >> >> TEI-L >> TEI-MEET >> TEI-MEMBERS (Veronika Lux) >> TEI-MS-SIG (Elena Pierazzo) >> TEI-MUSIC-SIG (Raffaele Viglianti, Gabriel Board, Dot >> Porter) >> TEI-OL-SIG (David Durand) >> TEI-SIGS (Susan Schreibman) >> TEI-SOM (David Durand) >> >> @ Indiana University >> >> TEILIB-L [who is admin??] >> >> @ New York University >> >> tei-presentation [who is admin??] >> >> @ Oxford [who is admin??] >> >> tei-chars >> tei-extensions >> tei-i18n >> tei-iso-fs >> tei-meta >> >> @ SourceForge [same admins as SourceForge repository??] >> >> tei-choice >> tei-ontology-sig >> >> @ University of Virginia, hosted at IATH (Daniel Pitti), >> list admin >> David Sewell: >> >> tei-board >> tei-council >> >> >> Membership Database: >> >> Veronica Lux (+ others??). Syd Bauman has r/o access. >> >> Perforce repository (at OUCS): >> >> Lou Burnard, chief administrator; others with r/w access are >> Syd >> Bauman, James Cummings, Sebastian Rahtz. >> >> Servers: >> >> www.tei-c.org.uk at Oxford, still used for Vault (Sebastian >> Rahtz >> and Lou Burnard) >> tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk, used for test Roma and Guidelines >> (Sebastian Rahtz) >> -- including Debian repository, administered by >> Sebastian Rahtz >> www.tei-c.org at U of Virginia, main TEI server, >> administered by >> Daniel Pitti >> >> SourceForge: >> >> Project admins are Syd Bauman, Lou Burnard, Sebastian >> Rahtz. As of >> these minutes, there are a total of 14 developers (with >> rights to >> update source), list viewable at >> https://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php? >> group_id=106328. >> >> TEI Live CD source: owned by Sebastian Rahtz >> >> TEI Website (on www.tei-c.org): >> >> administered by Christine Ruotolo. Other people with read/ >> write >> access to the OpenCMS repository used for the website: Lou >> Burnard, >> Sebastian Rahtz(??). >> >> TEI Wiki administrators: >> >> James Cummings (Council), Piotr Banski, Kevin Hawkins, >> Sebastian >> Rahtz. The system administrator in charge is Shayne Brandon >> of IATH >> at UVa. >> >> 4. Preparation for Galway meeting >> >> LR: Dates for the meeting are fixed, April 2-4. On Wednesday the >> 2nd >> there will be a symposium organized by Malte Rehbein, who has >> issued a >> Call for Papers. The Council meeting proper will take place on >> the 3rd >> and 4th. We don't have a specific plan for Council members to >> participate in the symposium, but it is expected that we will >> attend and >> contribute. AC says that the organizers are focusing on >> presentations >> from the Irish TEI community. They will see how many local >> presentations they have and will then ask Council if they need >> supplementation. Susan Schreibman is the contact person/ >> organizer. LR >> notes that we have a group hotel rate, so no need to worry about >> lodging. We'll plan to start the Council meeting early on >> Thursday, and >> to end by 4 p.m. Friday afternoon. DO will post to tei-council >> about >> arrangements. >> >> Information about Council funding of the meeting is on the TEI >> Wiki: >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/TEI-Council-FAQ#What_funding_is_available_for_Council_Activities.3F >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Feb 13 17:08:08 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:08:08 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <E125FDC9-3DBE-4821-B0FB-DE12021E755F@indiana.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47B35286.1020807@xs4all.nl> <E125FDC9-3DBE-4821-B0FB-DE12021E755F@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <1202940488.7152.19.camel@localhost> Yeah. I've been wondering who this Paul might be who sounds like me: perhaps my middle name? We're always getting confused ;) On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 16:35 -0500, John A. Walsh wrote: > And I was a participant. Maybe David had me confused with Peter, > although our accents are quite different. :-) > > John > -- > | John A. Walsh > | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science > | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 > | www: <http://www.slis.indiana.edu/faculty/jawalsh/> > | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 <mailto:jawalsh at indiana.edu> > > > > On Feb 13, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Peter Boot wrote: > > > I'm surprised at finding my name among the participants, as (as I > > announced) I couldn't take part in the conference call! > > > > Peter > > > > David Sewell schreef: > >> All, > >> > >> Here is a preliminary text version of the minutes, which I'll plug > >> into > >> the XML template once it is final. Could everyone look it over and > >> provide me with any necessary corrections or additional info? In > >> particular: > >> > >> * search for '??' to see queries, mostly involving email list > >> ownership > >> > >> * double-check attributions. I may not always have distinguished > >> properly between Lou and Gabriel's voice (and possibly Sebastian > >> once or > >> twice), or between Paul and Dan. To give me better distinction in > >> regional accents, I no doubt should have asked for ground rules at > >> the > >> start, e.g. "Lou, can we have you use a broad Scots dialect on this > >> call, and Dan, could you emphasise the Canadian by doing either Bob > >> and > >> Doug McKenzie or Jean Chr?tien, your choice?" > >> > >> David > >> > >> ============== > >> > >> MINUTES OF TEI COUNCIL CONFERENCE CALL, 7 FEBRUARY 2008 > >> > >> Called to order 1300 UTC > >> > >> Participants: > >> > >> Gabriel Bodard (GB), Peter Boot (PB), Arianna Ciula (AC), James > >> Cummings > >> (JC), Syd Bauman (SB), Lou Burnard (LB), Dan O'Donnell (DO), > >> Sebastian > >> Rahtz (SR), David Sewell (DS; minutes), and Laurent Romary (LR; > >> Chair). > >> > >> Unable to participate: > >> > >> Tone Bruvik, Elena Pierazzo, Manfred Thaller, and John > >> Walsh. > >> > >> 1. Scope of Council Activities > >> > >> 1.1 Technical Activities > >> > >> 1.1.1 Guideline Status > >> > >> LR asks us to consider the current status of Guidelines. How are > >> we > >> handling updates and point releases? SR reminds us that he had > >> raised the > >> question of fixed release vs. varying bug-fix releases and had > >> recommended a 2x per year schedule. GB, AC, and SB agreed that > >> practice and > >> consensus was for a fixed timetable. SR notes that the 1.0.1 > >> release is > >> a "release zero", not a 6-month release. LR concurs: the next > >> release > >> will be over the summer, unless serious bugs appear. JC notes that > >> everyone has access to Sourceforge for intermediate stages. > >> > >> Should we have "stable/unstable" distinction? It's helpful for > >> people to > >> test releases. > >> GB: there is a fixed date in TEI timetable, the November > >> meeting. Shall we say > >> there will always be a pre-release of next major release before > >> Nov? > >> > >> JC asks about about numbering of releases, so people can cite the > >> version of the Guidelines they are using. SR: the only way to do > >> this is > >> by release dates, where the date is the version number. LR > >> notes that a > >> release is more than just a source version on SourceForge, it > >> involves a > >> lot of checking. DO asks if someone could just write up a > >> numbering > >> language system for us to put on a Web page? A new version > >> number will > >> be added when there is an actual feature/module change, not just > >> changes > >> to Guidelines language. > >> > >> LR: can we stabilize a formulation? > >> > >> Releases every 6 months; a pre-release before the November > >> meeting; unstable SourceForge branches are maintained and > >> identified > >> by SourceForge revision number. A "release" consists of the > >> SourceForge update, creation of compiled packages and > >> schemas, and an > >> update of the Guidelines (LB). > >> > >> 1.1.2 Bug reporting > >> > >> LR asks about the current situation with the stability of the > >> Guidelines? do we still have major bugs, or just tiny issues > >> over next > >> months? JC: it's not clear where bug reports are going any more. > >> LB: it > >> is clear we want bug reports to go to SourceForge, into the > >> tracker. > >> But we haven't agreed on: (1) how to make sure Council provides > >> input, > >> or who is responsible; (2) the way to build a workflow to take > >> suggestions & deal with them. DO: this will be an important > >> thing to > >> discuss in Galway. LB: is this channel best way of soliciting > >> input? SB: > >> no, many people are scared by SourceForge. We need to have an > >> email/list > >> mechanism. LB: then at the point in discussion where there is > >> general > >> agreement, someone needs to write it up as a SourceForge feature > >> request. LR notes the gap between TEI-L and TEI Council. DO: So > >> we need > >> formally to keep an eye on TEI-L, and put into SourceForge bug > >> reports > >> and feature requests from there. JC: shouldn't all Council > >> members do > >> this? DO: but it helps to have someone designated. LR agrees; > >> at the > >> Member's Meeting, we discussed the dropping of Guideline > >> "editors", with > >> work on them organized by Council, but I strongly recommend we > >> provide > >> editorial support. We should make sure that Oxford has stable > >> editorial > >> support. DO: the decision was made to increase flexibility, not > >> to > >> remove input from the current editors. There is no mandate for > >> "editors" in the (TEI Consortium) Bylaws, but we can Bylaws > >> mandate, but > >> we can still assign certain tasks as needed. > >> > >> LR recommends that Board discuss this matter; we need an "air > >> traffic > >> controller". > >> > >> There followed some additional discussion on bug reporting/ > >> tracking > >> procedures. DS suggests the possibility of a Wiki area on the > >> TEI Wiki > >> for bug discussion. SB suggests having a single email address > >> for bug > >> reports. DO objects that this creates multiple unofficial > >> channels for > >> bug reports. We don't want multiple lists. SB replies that > >> we're going > >> to have this no matter what. LB replies we can insist on paying > >> attention only to 2 places and having bug reports sent to > >> specified > >> venues. Members disagree over whether that venue should be > >> SourceForge, > >> LB arguing yes, SB and AC saying no. JC says that if bugs are to > >> be > >> discussed on an email list, surely that should be TEI-L. AC > >> notes some > >> people don't understand the distinctions between the different > >> venues. > >> We need a mechanism to facilitate communication for less > >> technically > >> adept users. DO asks, why not have a volunteer from Council as > >> facilitator? > >> > >> LR: there's a problem with having too many tools. Let's have a > >> clear > >> mechanism. TEI-L is a good place for all these discussions; let > >> us not > >> have lots of side discussions. > >> > >> DO(??): Okay, let's use SourceForge as our single location, with > >> mechanisms for helping people report who don't use SourceForge. > >> LR: > >> there should be tutorials on how to report. If we reduce number > >> of > >> tools, people can be more aware of them. > >> > >> DO: it sounds like we have identified a need for a release > >> secretary and > >> a SourceForge secretary, and an editorial support group. > >> > >> 1.2 Outreach, Education > >> > >> 1.2.1 ODD > >> > >> LR begins by suggesting that "exemplars" and "ODD" are key word > >> are key > >> words. One of main ways we can offer entry into the TEI > >> environment is > >> by adding ready-made schemas. SR cautions that if we create > >> exemplars by > >> committee, it will be difficult to get results. SB says that the > >> current > >> crop of exemplars are good for creating ODDs, but not so good for > >> tackling various tasks. We don't have sample schemas that are > >> good for > >> encoding. For example: we don't show how to use constraints. SR > >> observes > >> that an exemplar constraining types might not be useful for > >> individual > >> needs. TEI Tite and TEI Lite, on the other hand, are intended to > >> "be > >> used"; LB concurs that whatever the original intentions behind > >> Lite > >> were, it is used as an "off the shelf" product. GB: we don't want > >> example ODDs, we want example projects. Peter Boot notes word > >> "exemplar" is ambiguous, especially for non-English speakers; > >> can we > >> find a better term? [Note from DS: Peter is right, and this is > >> true in > >> English as well. The New Oxford Dictionary of English definition > >> of > >> "exemplar" is "a person or thing serving as a typical example or > >> appropriate model". The latter sense is normative; the former is > >> not.] > >> > >> LB: this is what the TEI by Example project was supposed to > >> provide. > >> Unfortunately it's not doing that. It would be good to have set of > >> examples of how people have solved things. JC agrees: "case > >> studies". > >> PB says this is an issue of the scope of Council: instead of > >> doing this > >> ourselves, we should figure out how to liaise w/ other groups > >> doing > >> these activities. General agreement. > >> > >> LR asks, what is status of ODD? Should we focus on improvements > >> to ODD > >> features? SB: yes, but we should defer this so we can address > >> other > >> issues first. SR agrees; this isn't a core business of Council > >> in 2008; > >> we should treat it as a parallel activity. LR objects that this > >> ODD is > >> in fact essential to outreach, as many TEI communities can > >> contribute > >> via ODD modules. The importance of ODD means it should be on our > >> agenda > >> (even if we don't make changes). GB concurs that it may be a > >> mistake to > >> segregate ODD activity; customizing TEI is a basic activity. Any > >> outreach/education will connect with ODD. > >> > >> SR: We don't want to send the message "here's the language to > >> use, but > >> we're going to change it". ODD is unusual because it is tied up > >> with the > >> software that implements it. > >> > >> 1.2.2. Other Outreach and Internationalization Goals > >> > >> LR: Within Council, we should find a way to relate to external > >> projects > >> connected with TEI. We will integrate results of other groups; > >> some of > >> us will have duties to interact with specific ones. "I see more > >> and more > >> requests for short introductions on specific topics and offering > >> examples." We could provide consultation on these matters. DO > >> agrees: > >> this has always been Council's duty. For example, current funding > >> proposals before the National Endowment for the Humanities > >> include two > >> very TEI-centric projects. > >> > >> LR: This is true of internationalization also. > >> > >> Question: how do we identify the groups with which Council should > >> interact? LR suggests this is part of Council's activity. DO asks > >> whether we should issue invitations for groups who want Council > >> involvement. JC notes that when someone comes to TEI-L an asks > >> "can > >> someone help me?" we need to provide a name. DO says this will > >> become > >> more and more important in funding projects. > >> > >> LR concludes: we should systematize the responsibility of these > >> "corresponding persons". This will be added to the Galway meeting > >> agenda. > >> > >> 3. Global organization of Council > >> > >> 3.1 Communication > >> > >> The next discussion involved the TEI's communication platforms, > >> specifically the TEI website and our mailing lists. LR notes a > >> need for > >> Council workgroups or people to oversee both. The Board has > >> appointed a > >> website workgroup that we can provide input to. > >> > >> LB notes that service over the past year from Council email list > >> has not > >> been good; the server has been down too often. JC asks whether it > >> wouldn't make sense to have all TEI email lists hosted on tei- > >> c.org? SB > >> raises a difficulty: the main list TEI-L is run on commercial > >> software. > >> No alternative software that he is aware of supports that level of > >> service. Can we find open-source software? LB says that TEI-L is > >> working fine and is not the issue. But perhaps the tei-council > >> list > >> should be moved. Level of service is more important than whether > >> or not > >> all the lists are in one place. > >> > >> LR summarizes that we need to confirm ongoing support for the > >> lists at > >> Virginia, or explore the possibility of merging or moving list > >> hosts. > >> DS offers to confer with his Virginia colleagues on that status > >> of the > >> system hosting the lists. [He reported back that > >> lists.village.virginia.edu, the host for the TEI Council and > >> Board email > >> lists, is indeed in the process of being merged with the new tei- > >> c.org > >> host, which will have 24/7 tech support; and the IATH system > >> administrator is looking into adding full-text search on the tei- > >> council > >> list archive.] > >> > >> 3.2 Responsibilities > >> > >> LR moves on to a discussion of general TEI Consortium > >> responsibilities > >> and Council's part in them. DO raises the issue of who "has the > >> keys" to > >> different things: who has responsibility, for example, for the > >> SourceForge repository, for www.tei-c.org., etc? Should we > >> survey who > >> controls the different things we use? LR: Yes. if we know for > >> example > >> that U of Virgina has responsibility for the website, we need to > >> have a > >> single contact person. Likewise with Oxford's editorial support. > >> DO: we > >> don't have a single list of responsibilities. We should maybe put > >> together before Galway meeting: SourceForge, mailing lists, > >> website, > >> Wiki... who has the passwords and oversight. SB agrees that such > >> an > >> inventory is important. LR asks that all "keyholders" please > >> send a note > >> to DS for inclusion in the minutes. > >> > >> 3.2.1 "Keyholders" > >> > >> DS received the following information on keyholding > >> responsibilities for > >> TEI resources: > >> > >> Mailing Lists (active): > >> > >> @ Brown University: Syd Bauman default admin, plus others in > >> parentheses > >> > >> TEI-L > >> TEI-MEET > >> TEI-MEMBERS (Veronika Lux) > >> TEI-MS-SIG (Elena Pierazzo) > >> TEI-MUSIC-SIG (Raffaele Viglianti, Gabriel Board, Dot > >> Porter) > >> TEI-OL-SIG (David Durand) > >> TEI-SIGS (Susan Schreibman) > >> TEI-SOM (David Durand) > >> > >> @ Indiana University > >> > >> TEILIB-L [who is admin??] > >> > >> @ New York University > >> > >> tei-presentation [who is admin??] > >> > >> @ Oxford [who is admin??] > >> > >> tei-chars > >> tei-extensions > >> tei-i18n > >> tei-iso-fs > >> tei-meta > >> > >> @ SourceForge [same admins as SourceForge repository??] > >> > >> tei-choice > >> tei-ontology-sig > >> > >> @ University of Virginia, hosted at IATH (Daniel Pitti), > >> list admin > >> David Sewell: > >> > >> tei-board > >> tei-council > >> > >> > >> Membership Database: > >> > >> Veronica Lux (+ others??). Syd Bauman has r/o access. > >> > >> Perforce repository (at OUCS): > >> > >> Lou Burnard, chief administrator; others with r/w access are > >> Syd > >> Bauman, James Cummings, Sebastian Rahtz. > >> > >> Servers: > >> > >> www.tei-c.org.uk at Oxford, still used for Vault (Sebastian > >> Rahtz > >> and Lou Burnard) > >> tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk, used for test Roma and Guidelines > >> (Sebastian Rahtz) > >> -- including Debian repository, administered by > >> Sebastian Rahtz > >> www.tei-c.org at U of Virginia, main TEI server, > >> administered by > >> Daniel Pitti > >> > >> SourceForge: > >> > >> Project admins are Syd Bauman, Lou Burnard, Sebastian > >> Rahtz. As of > >> these minutes, there are a total of 14 developers (with > >> rights to > >> update source), list viewable at > >> https://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php? > >> group_id=106328. > >> > >> TEI Live CD source: owned by Sebastian Rahtz > >> > >> TEI Website (on www.tei-c.org): > >> > >> administered by Christine Ruotolo. Other people with read/ > >> write > >> access to the OpenCMS repository used for the website: Lou > >> Burnard, > >> Sebastian Rahtz(??). > >> > >> TEI Wiki administrators: > >> > >> James Cummings (Council), Piotr Banski, Kevin Hawkins, > >> Sebastian > >> Rahtz. The system administrator in charge is Shayne Brandon > >> of IATH > >> at UVa. > >> > >> 4. Preparation for Galway meeting > >> > >> LR: Dates for the meeting are fixed, April 2-4. On Wednesday the > >> 2nd > >> there will be a symposium organized by Malte Rehbein, who has > >> issued a > >> Call for Papers. The Council meeting proper will take place on > >> the 3rd > >> and 4th. We don't have a specific plan for Council members to > >> participate in the symposium, but it is expected that we will > >> attend and > >> contribute. AC says that the organizers are focusing on > >> presentations > >> from the Irish TEI community. They will see how many local > >> presentations they have and will then ask Council if they need > >> supplementation. Susan Schreibman is the contact person/ > >> organizer. LR > >> notes that we have a group hotel rate, so no need to worry about > >> lodging. We'll plan to start the Council meeting early on > >> Thursday, and > >> to end by 4 p.m. Friday afternoon. DO will post to tei-council > >> about > >> arrangements. > >> > >> Information about Council funding of the meeting is on the TEI > >> Wiki: > >> > >> http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/TEI-Council-FAQ#What_funding_is_available_for_Council_Activities.3F > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tei-council mailing list > >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor and Chair, Department of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair and CEO, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Canada Vox: +1 403 329-2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 13 18:20:05 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2008 23:20:05 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B32216.6020208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47B32216.6020208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47B37B25.2090904@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> TEI Wiki administrators: >> James Cummings (Council), Piotr Banski, Kevin Hawkins, Sebastian >> Rahtz. The system administrator in charge is Shayne Brandon of IATH >> at UVa. > take my name off here, I haven't touched it for ages... Does that mean you actually want your admin rights revoked as well? And if anyone else wants admin rights on the wiki let me know. For the record, Piotr and Kevin have admin rights because they were very willing to put in lots of work, fight spam, and generally deserve it. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Feb 14 02:43:10 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:43:10 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <1202929953.6834.36.camel@localhost> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47B33C73.3040803@kcl.ac.uk> <1202929953.6834.36.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <C43FA3BB-7A49-475D-9B3A-981795EAFF47@loria.fr> Yeap. The latest proposal I have seen is to have a few focussed talks on recent issues related to P5 as well as the global picture. Now that I think of it, I think it could be helpful if Council members' would suggest a few 10/15' talks that they could make. I can gather these and send them to Malte+Susan. This would probably help him converge on the program in the remaining (short) amount of time. Send Names+Titles on the list and I will gather these. Best, Laurent Le 13 f?vr. 08 ? 20:12, Daniel O'Donnell a ?crit : > > On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 18:52 +0000, Arianna Ciula wrote: >> Thanks for this David; one comment only: >> >> David Sewell wrote: >> AC says that the organizers are focusing on presentations >>> from the Irish TEI community. They will see how many local >>> presentations they have and will then ask Council if they need >>> supplementation. Susan Schreibman is the contact person/ >>> organizer. >> >> I probably haven't made this clear enough, but the contact and >> organiser >> is Malte Rehbein (malte.rehbein at nuigalway.ie). Susan is moving to >> Ireland to take an important post as head of the Digital Humanities >> Observatory and, as member of the board, has coordinated with me, Dan >> and Sebastian the original discussion with Malte when there wasn't a >> council chair yet and we couldn't commit to a date. >> >> I think Malte definitely wants someone from the council to speak >> on the >> 2nd, but probably prefers to give priority to submitted papers as >> much >> as possible....which suits me. > > Susan told me that malte and Laurent have discussed this since our > last > meeting as well? > >> >> Arianna >> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > -- > Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD > Department Chair and Associate Professor of English > Director, Digital Medievalist Project http:// > www.digitalmedievalist.org/ > Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ > > Department of English > University of Lethbridge > Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 > Vox +1 403 329-2377 > Fax +1 403 382-7191 > Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca > WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Feb 14 02:59:06 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 08:59:06 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> Agree. I will prepare a short outline for the Board, and reading the minutes allows me to recall precisely what I had understood in the discussion. I am not sure what a dittography is, but I guess "are key words are key words" is one... Laurent Le 13 f?vr. 08 ? 17:50, Daniel O'Donnell a ?crit : > > Looks good to me. I think it is an accurate reflection of the general > thrust of the discussion: there were one or two places where I thought > "is that really what x said?" but I think we wouldn't be able to get > more accurate without a meta-meeting and the conclusions are, as > far as > I'm aware, all accurate. > > I saw a couple of dittographies of a couple of words but now I can't > find them. > > The question-marked attributions to me are all things I'm willing to > have said ;) > > -dan > > On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 11:33 -0500, David Sewell wrote: >> All, >> >> Here is a preliminary text version of the minutes, which I'll plug >> into >> the XML template once it is final. Could everyone look it over and >> provide me with any necessary corrections or additional info? In >> particular: >> >> * search for '??' to see queries, mostly involving email list >> ownership >> >> * double-check attributions. I may not always have distinguished >> properly between Lou and Gabriel's voice (and possibly Sebastian >> once or >> twice), or between Paul and Dan. To give me better distinction in >> regional accents, I no doubt should have asked for ground rules at >> the >> start, e.g. "Lou, can we have you use a broad Scots dialect on this >> call, and Dan, could you emphasise the Canadian by doing either >> Bob and >> Doug McKenzie or Jean Chr?tien, your choice?" >> >> David >> >> ============== >> >> MINUTES OF TEI COUNCIL CONFERENCE CALL, 7 FEBRUARY 2008 >> >> Called to order 1300 UTC >> >> Participants: >> >> Gabriel Bodard (GB), Peter Boot (PB), Arianna Ciula (AC), >> James Cummings >> (JC), Syd Bauman (SB), Lou Burnard (LB), Dan O'Donnell (DO), >> Sebastian >> Rahtz (SR), David Sewell (DS; minutes), and Laurent Romary >> (LR; Chair). >> >> Unable to participate: >> >> Tone Bruvik, Elena Pierazzo, Manfred Thaller, and John >> Walsh. >> >> 1. Scope of Council Activities >> >> 1.1 Technical Activities >> >> 1.1.1 Guideline Status >> >> LR asks us to consider the current status of Guidelines. How >> are we >> handling updates and point releases? SR reminds us that he had >> raised the >> question of fixed release vs. varying bug-fix releases and had >> recommended a 2x per year schedule. GB, AC, and SB agreed that >> practice and >> consensus was for a fixed timetable. SR notes that the 1.0.1 >> release is >> a "release zero", not a 6-month release. LR concurs: the next >> release >> will be over the summer, unless serious bugs appear. JC notes >> that >> everyone has access to Sourceforge for intermediate stages. >> >> Should we have "stable/unstable" distinction? It's helpful for >> people to >> test releases. >> GB: there is a fixed date in TEI timetable, the November >> meeting. Shall we say >> there will always be a pre-release of next major release >> before Nov? >> >> JC asks about about numbering of releases, so people can cite the >> version of the Guidelines they are using. SR: the only way to >> do this is >> by release dates, where the date is the version number. LR >> notes that a >> release is more than just a source version on SourceForge, it >> involves a >> lot of checking. DO asks if someone could just write up a >> numbering >> language system for us to put on a Web page? A new version >> number will >> be added when there is an actual feature/module change, not >> just changes >> to Guidelines language. >> >> LR: can we stabilize a formulation? >> >> Releases every 6 months; a pre-release before the November >> meeting; unstable SourceForge branches are maintained and >> identified >> by SourceForge revision number. A "release" consists of the >> SourceForge update, creation of compiled packages and >> schemas, and an >> update of the Guidelines (LB). >> >> 1.1.2 Bug reporting >> >> LR asks about the current situation with the stability of the >> Guidelines? do we still have major bugs, or just tiny issues >> over next >> months? JC: it's not clear where bug reports are going any >> more. LB: it >> is clear we want bug reports to go to SourceForge, into the >> tracker. >> But we haven't agreed on: (1) how to make sure Council >> provides input, >> or who is responsible; (2) the way to build a workflow to take >> suggestions & deal with them. DO: this will be an important >> thing to >> discuss in Galway. LB: is this channel best way of soliciting >> input? SB: >> no, many people are scared by SourceForge. We need to have an >> email/list >> mechanism. LB: then at the point in discussion where there is >> general >> agreement, someone needs to write it up as a SourceForge feature >> request. LR notes the gap between TEI-L and TEI Council. DO: >> So we need >> formally to keep an eye on TEI-L, and put into SourceForge bug >> reports >> and feature requests from there. JC: shouldn't all Council >> members do >> this? DO: but it helps to have someone designated. LR agrees; >> at the >> Member's Meeting, we discussed the dropping of Guideline >> "editors", with >> work on them organized by Council, but I strongly recommend we >> provide >> editorial support. We should make sure that Oxford has stable >> editorial >> support. DO: the decision was made to increase flexibility, >> not to >> remove input from the current editors. There is no mandate for >> "editors" in the (TEI Consortium) Bylaws, but we can Bylaws >> mandate, but >> we can still assign certain tasks as needed. >> >> LR recommends that Board discuss this matter; we need an "air >> traffic >> controller". >> >> There followed some additional discussion on bug reporting/ >> tracking >> procedures. DS suggests the possibility of a Wiki area on the >> TEI Wiki >> for bug discussion. SB suggests having a single email address >> for bug >> reports. DO objects that this creates multiple unofficial >> channels for >> bug reports. We don't want multiple lists. SB replies that >> we're going >> to have this no matter what. LB replies we can insist on paying >> attention only to 2 places and having bug reports sent to >> specified >> venues. Members disagree over whether that venue should be >> SourceForge, >> LB arguing yes, SB and AC saying no. JC says that if bugs are >> to be >> discussed on an email list, surely that should be TEI-L. AC >> notes some >> people don't understand the distinctions between the different >> venues. >> We need a mechanism to facilitate communication for less >> technically >> adept users. DO asks, why not have a volunteer from Council as >> facilitator? >> >> LR: there's a problem with having too many tools. Let's have a >> clear >> mechanism. TEI-L is a good place for all these discussions; >> let us not >> have lots of side discussions. >> >> DO(??): Okay, let's use SourceForge as our single location, with >> mechanisms for helping people report who don't use >> SourceForge. LR: >> there should be tutorials on how to report. If we reduce >> number of >> tools, people can be more aware of them. >> >> DO: it sounds like we have identified a need for a release >> secretary and >> a SourceForge secretary, and an editorial support group. >> >> 1.2 Outreach, Education >> >> 1.2.1 ODD >> >> LR begins by suggesting that "exemplars" and "ODD" are key >> word are key >> words. One of main ways we can offer entry into the TEI >> environment is >> by adding ready-made schemas. SR cautions that if we create >> exemplars by >> committee, it will be difficult to get results. SB says that >> the current >> crop of exemplars are good for creating ODDs, but not so good for >> tackling various tasks. We don't have sample schemas that are >> good for >> encoding. For example: we don't show how to use constraints. >> SR observes >> that an exemplar constraining types might not be useful for >> individual >> needs. TEI Tite and TEI Lite, on the other hand, are intended >> to "be >> used"; LB concurs that whatever the original intentions behind >> Lite >> were, it is used as an "off the shelf" product. GB: we don't >> want >> example ODDs, we want example projects. Peter Boot notes word >> "exemplar" is ambiguous, especially for non-English speakers; >> can we >> find a better term? [Note from DS: Peter is right, and this is >> true in >> English as well. The New Oxford Dictionary of English >> definition of >> "exemplar" is "a person or thing serving as a typical example or >> appropriate model". The latter sense is normative; the former >> is not.] >> >> LB: this is what the TEI by Example project was supposed to >> provide. >> Unfortunately it's not doing that. It would be good to have >> set of >> examples of how people have solved things. JC agrees: "case >> studies". >> PB says this is an issue of the scope of Council: instead of >> doing this >> ourselves, we should figure out how to liaise w/ other groups >> doing >> these activities. General agreement. >> >> LR asks, what is status of ODD? Should we focus on >> improvements to ODD >> features? SB: yes, but we should defer this so we can address >> other >> issues first. SR agrees; this isn't a core business of Council >> in 2008; >> we should treat it as a parallel activity. LR objects that >> this ODD is >> in fact essential to outreach, as many TEI communities can >> contribute >> via ODD modules. The importance of ODD means it should be on >> our agenda >> (even if we don't make changes). GB concurs that it may be a >> mistake to >> segregate ODD activity; customizing TEI is a basic activity. Any >> outreach/education will connect with ODD. >> >> SR: We don't want to send the message "here's the language to >> use, but >> we're going to change it". ODD is unusual because it is tied >> up with the >> software that implements it. >> >> 1.2.2. Other Outreach and Internationalization Goals >> >> LR: Within Council, we should find a way to relate to external >> projects >> connected with TEI. We will integrate results of other groups; >> some of >> us will have duties to interact with specific ones. "I see >> more and more >> requests for short introductions on specific topics and offering >> examples." We could provide consultation on these matters. DO >> agrees: >> this has always been Council's duty. For example, current funding >> proposals before the National Endowment for the Humanities >> include two >> very TEI-centric projects. >> >> LR: This is true of internationalization also. >> >> Question: how do we identify the groups with which Council should >> interact? LR suggests this is part of Council's activity. DO asks >> whether we should issue invitations for groups who want Council >> involvement. JC notes that when someone comes to TEI-L an asks >> "can >> someone help me?" we need to provide a name. DO says this >> will become >> more and more important in funding projects. >> >> LR concludes: we should systematize the responsibility of these >> "corresponding persons". This will be added to the Galway meeting >> agenda. >> >> 3. Global organization of Council >> >> 3.1 Communication >> >> The next discussion involved the TEI's communication platforms, >> specifically the TEI website and our mailing lists. LR notes a >> need for >> Council workgroups or people to oversee both. The Board has >> appointed a >> website workgroup that we can provide input to. >> >> LB notes that service over the past year from Council email >> list has not >> been good; the server has been down too often. JC asks whether it >> wouldn't make sense to have all TEI email lists hosted on tei- >> c.org? SB >> raises a difficulty: the main list TEI-L is run on commercial >> software. >> No alternative software that he is aware of supports that >> level of >> service. Can we find open-source software? LB says that TEI-L is >> working fine and is not the issue. But perhaps the tei-council >> list >> should be moved. Level of service is more important than >> whether or not >> all the lists are in one place. >> >> LR summarizes that we need to confirm ongoing support for the >> lists at >> Virginia, or explore the possibility of merging or moving list >> hosts. >> DS offers to confer with his Virginia colleagues on that >> status of the >> system hosting the lists. [He reported back that >> lists.village.virginia.edu, the host for the TEI Council and >> Board email >> lists, is indeed in the process of being merged with the new >> tei-c.org >> host, which will have 24/7 tech support; and the IATH system >> administrator is looking into adding full-text search on the >> tei-council >> list archive.] >> >> 3.2 Responsibilities >> >> LR moves on to a discussion of general TEI Consortium >> responsibilities >> and Council's part in them. DO raises the issue of who "has >> the keys" to >> different things: who has responsibility, for example, for the >> SourceForge repository, for www.tei-c.org., etc? Should we >> survey who >> controls the different things we use? LR: Yes. if we know for >> example >> that U of Virgina has responsibility for the website, we need >> to have a >> single contact person. Likewise with Oxford's editorial >> support. DO: we >> don't have a single list of responsibilities. We should maybe put >> together before Galway meeting: SourceForge, mailing lists, >> website, >> Wiki... who has the passwords and oversight. SB agrees that >> such an >> inventory is important. LR asks that all "keyholders" please >> send a note >> to DS for inclusion in the minutes. >> >> 3.2.1 "Keyholders" >> >> DS received the following information on keyholding >> responsibilities for >> TEI resources: >> >> Mailing Lists (active): >> >> @ Brown University: Syd Bauman default admin, plus others in >> parentheses >> >> TEI-L >> TEI-MEET >> TEI-MEMBERS (Veronika Lux) >> TEI-MS-SIG (Elena Pierazzo) >> TEI-MUSIC-SIG (Raffaele Viglianti, Gabriel Board, Dot >> Porter) >> TEI-OL-SIG (David Durand) >> TEI-SIGS (Susan Schreibman) >> TEI-SOM (David Durand) >> >> @ Indiana University >> >> TEILIB-L [who is admin??] >> >> @ New York University >> >> tei-presentation [who is admin??] >> >> @ Oxford [who is admin??] >> >> tei-chars >> tei-extensions >> tei-i18n >> tei-iso-fs >> tei-meta >> >> @ SourceForge [same admins as SourceForge repository??] >> >> tei-choice >> tei-ontology-sig >> >> @ University of Virginia, hosted at IATH (Daniel Pitti), >> list admin >> David Sewell: >> >> tei-board >> tei-council >> >> >> Membership Database: >> >> Veronica Lux (+ others??). Syd Bauman has r/o access. >> >> Perforce repository (at OUCS): >> >> Lou Burnard, chief administrator; others with r/w access >> are Syd >> Bauman, James Cummings, Sebastian Rahtz. >> >> Servers: >> >> www.tei-c.org.uk at Oxford, still used for Vault >> (Sebastian Rahtz >> and Lou Burnard) >> tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk, used for test Roma and Guidelines >> (Sebastian Rahtz) >> -- including Debian repository, administered by >> Sebastian Rahtz >> www.tei-c.org at U of Virginia, main TEI server, >> administered by >> Daniel Pitti >> >> SourceForge: >> >> Project admins are Syd Bauman, Lou Burnard, Sebastian >> Rahtz. As of >> these minutes, there are a total of 14 developers (with >> rights to >> update source), list viewable at >> https://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php? >> group_id=106328. >> >> TEI Live CD source: owned by Sebastian Rahtz >> >> TEI Website (on www.tei-c.org): >> >> administered by Christine Ruotolo. Other people with read/ >> write >> access to the OpenCMS repository used for the website: Lou >> Burnard, >> Sebastian Rahtz(??). >> >> TEI Wiki administrators: >> >> James Cummings (Council), Piotr Banski, Kevin Hawkins, >> Sebastian >> Rahtz. The system administrator in charge is Shayne >> Brandon of IATH >> at UVa. >> >> 4. Preparation for Galway meeting >> >> LR: Dates for the meeting are fixed, April 2-4. On Wednesday >> the 2nd >> there will be a symposium organized by Malte Rehbein, who has >> issued a >> Call for Papers. The Council meeting proper will take place on >> the 3rd >> and 4th. We don't have a specific plan for Council members to >> participate in the symposium, but it is expected that we will >> attend and >> contribute. AC says that the organizers are focusing on >> presentations >> from the Irish TEI community. They will see how many local >> presentations they have and will then ask Council if they need >> supplementation. Susan Schreibman is the contact person/ >> organizer. LR >> notes that we have a group hotel rate, so no need to worry about >> lodging. We'll plan to start the Council meeting early on >> Thursday, and >> to end by 4 p.m. Friday afternoon. DO will post to tei- >> council about >> arrangements. >> >> Information about Council funding of the meeting is on the TEI >> Wiki: >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/TEI-Council- >> FAQ#What_funding_is_available_for_Council_Activities.3F >> >> -- >> David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager >> ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press >> PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA >> Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 >> Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 >> Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ >> _______________________________________________ tei-council >> mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http:// >> lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- > Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD > Department Chair and Associate Professor of English > Director, Digital Medievalist Project http:// > www.digitalmedievalist.org/ > Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ > > Department of English > University of Lethbridge > Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 > Vox +1 403 329-2377 > Fax +1 403 382-7191 > Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca > WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 14 05:30:26 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:30:26 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > I am not sure what a dittography is, but I guess "are key words are > key words" is one... > I was going to make the same comment, which would have been another one! GB: there is a fixed date in TEI timetable, the November meeting. Shall we say -> LB " a numbering language system" -> [no idea what this means maybe just "write up the numbering system"?] "but we can Bylaws mandate, " -> [delete this] "Members disagree over whether that venue should be SourceForge, LB arguing yes, SB and AC saying no." -[I dont remember this disagreement being about where *discussion* of bugs etc should take place but maybe I'm wrong] > Laurent > > Le 13 f?vr. 08 ? 17:50, Daniel O'Donnell a ?crit : > > >> Looks good to me. I think it is an accurate reflection of the general >> thrust of the discussion: there were one or two places where I thought >> "is that really what x said?" but I think we wouldn't be able to get >> more accurate without a meta-meeting and the conclusions are, as >> far as >> I'm aware, all accurate. >> >> I saw a couple of dittographies of a couple of words but now I can't >> find them. >> >> The question-marked attributions to me are all things I'm willing to >> have said ;) >> >> -dan >> >> On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 11:33 -0500, David Sewell wrote: >> >>> All, >>> >>> Here is a preliminary text version of the minutes, which I'll plug >>> into >>> the XML template once it is final. Could everyone look it over and >>> provide me with any necessary corrections or additional info? In >>> particular: >>> >>> * search for '??' to see queries, mostly involving email list >>> ownership >>> >>> * double-check attributions. I may not always have distinguished >>> properly between Lou and Gabriel's voice (and possibly Sebastian >>> once or >>> twice), or between Paul and Dan. To give me better distinction in >>> regional accents, I no doubt should have asked for ground rules at >>> the >>> start, e.g. "Lou, can we have you use a broad Scots dialect on this >>> call, and Dan, could you emphasise the Canadian by doing either >>> Bob and >>> Doug McKenzie or Jean Chr?tien, your choice?" >>> >>> David >>> >>> ============== >>> >>> MINUTES OF TEI COUNCIL CONFERENCE CALL, 7 FEBRUARY 2008 >>> >>> Called to order 1300 UTC >>> >>> Participants: >>> >>> Gabriel Bodard (GB), Peter Boot (PB), Arianna Ciula (AC), >>> James Cummings >>> (JC), Syd Bauman (SB), Lou Burnard (LB), Dan O'Donnell (DO), >>> Sebastian >>> Rahtz (SR), David Sewell (DS; minutes), and Laurent Romary >>> (LR; Chair). >>> >>> Unable to participate: >>> >>> Tone Bruvik, Elena Pierazzo, Manfred Thaller, and John >>> Walsh. >>> >>> 1. Scope of Council Activities >>> >>> 1.1 Technical Activities >>> >>> 1.1.1 Guideline Status >>> >>> LR asks us to consider the current status of Guidelines. How >>> are we >>> handling updates and point releases? SR reminds us that he had >>> raised the >>> question of fixed release vs. varying bug-fix releases and had >>> recommended a 2x per year schedule. GB, AC, and SB agreed that >>> practice and >>> consensus was for a fixed timetable. SR notes that the 1.0.1 >>> release is >>> a "release zero", not a 6-month release. LR concurs: the next >>> release >>> will be over the summer, unless serious bugs appear. JC notes >>> that >>> everyone has access to Sourceforge for intermediate stages. >>> >>> Should we have "stable/unstable" distinction? It's helpful for >>> people to >>> test releases. >>> GB: there is a fixed date in TEI timetable, the November >>> meeting. Shall we say >>> there will always be a pre-release of next major release >>> before Nov? >>> >>> JC asks about about numbering of releases, so people can cite the >>> version of the Guidelines they are using. SR: the only way to >>> do this is >>> by release dates, where the date is the version number. LR >>> notes that a >>> release is more than just a source version on SourceForge, it >>> involves a >>> lot of checking. DO asks if someone could just write up a >>> numbering >>> language system for us to put on a Web page? A new version >>> number will >>> be added when there is an actual feature/module change, not >>> just changes >>> to Guidelines language. >>> >>> LR: can we stabilize a formulation? >>> >>> Releases every 6 months; a pre-release before the November >>> meeting; unstable SourceForge branches are maintained and >>> identified >>> by SourceForge revision number. A "release" consists of the >>> SourceForge update, creation of compiled packages and >>> schemas, and an >>> update of the Guidelines (LB). >>> >>> 1.1.2 Bug reporting >>> >>> LR asks about the current situation with the stability of the >>> Guidelines? do we still have major bugs, or just tiny issues >>> over next >>> months? JC: it's not clear where bug reports are going any >>> more. LB: it >>> is clear we want bug reports to go to SourceForge, into the >>> tracker. >>> But we haven't agreed on: (1) how to make sure Council >>> provides input, >>> or who is responsible; (2) the way to build a workflow to take >>> suggestions & deal with them. DO: this will be an important >>> thing to >>> discuss in Galway. LB: is this channel best way of soliciting >>> input? SB: >>> no, many people are scared by SourceForge. We need to have an >>> email/list >>> mechanism. LB: then at the point in discussion where there is >>> general >>> agreement, someone needs to write it up as a SourceForge feature >>> request. LR notes the gap between TEI-L and TEI Council. DO: >>> So we need >>> formally to keep an eye on TEI-L, and put into SourceForge bug >>> reports >>> and feature requests from there. JC: shouldn't all Council >>> members do >>> this? DO: but it helps to have someone designated. LR agrees; >>> at the >>> Member's Meeting, we discussed the dropping of Guideline >>> "editors", with >>> work on them organized by Council, but I strongly recommend we >>> provide >>> editorial support. We should make sure that Oxford has stable >>> editorial >>> support. DO: the decision was made to increase flexibility, >>> not to >>> remove input from the current editors. There is no mandate for >>> "editors" in the (TEI Consortium) Bylaws, but we can Bylaws >>> mandate, but >>> we can still assign certain tasks as needed. >>> >>> LR recommends that Board discuss this matter; we need an "air >>> traffic >>> controller". >>> >>> There followed some additional discussion on bug reporting/ >>> tracking >>> procedures. DS suggests the possibility of a Wiki area on the >>> TEI Wiki >>> for bug discussion. SB suggests having a single email address >>> for bug >>> reports. DO objects that this creates multiple unofficial >>> channels for >>> bug reports. We don't want multiple lists. SB replies that >>> we're going >>> to have this no matter what. LB replies we can insist on paying >>> attention only to 2 places and having bug reports sent to >>> specified >>> venues. Members disagree over whether that venue should be >>> SourceForge, >>> LB arguing yes, SB and AC saying no. JC says that if bugs are >>> to be >>> discussed on an email list, surely that should be TEI-L. AC >>> notes some >>> people don't understand the distinctions between the different >>> venues. >>> We need a mechanism to facilitate communication for less >>> technically >>> adept users. DO asks, why not have a volunteer from Council as >>> facilitator? >>> >>> LR: there's a problem with having too many tools. Let's have a >>> clear >>> mechanism. TEI-L is a good place for all these discussions; >>> let us not >>> have lots of side discussions. >>> >>> DO(??): Okay, let's use SourceForge as our single location, with >>> mechanisms for helping people report who don't use >>> SourceForge. LR: >>> there should be tutorials on how to report. If we reduce >>> number of >>> tools, people can be more aware of them. >>> >>> DO: it sounds like we have identified a need for a release >>> secretary and >>> a SourceForge secretary, and an editorial support group. >>> >>> 1.2 Outreach, Education >>> >>> 1.2.1 ODD >>> >>> LR begins by suggesting that "exemplars" and "ODD" are key >>> word are key >>> words. One of main ways we can offer entry into the TEI >>> environment is >>> by adding ready-made schemas. SR cautions that if we create >>> exemplars by >>> committee, it will be difficult to get results. SB says that >>> the current >>> crop of exemplars are good for creating ODDs, but not so good for >>> tackling various tasks. We don't have sample schemas that are >>> good for >>> encoding. For example: we don't show how to use constraints. >>> SR observes >>> that an exemplar constraining types might not be useful for >>> individual >>> needs. TEI Tite and TEI Lite, on the other hand, are intended >>> to "be >>> used"; LB concurs that whatever the original intentions behind >>> Lite >>> were, it is used as an "off the shelf" product. GB: we don't >>> want >>> example ODDs, we want example projects. Peter Boot notes word >>> "exemplar" is ambiguous, especially for non-English speakers; >>> can we >>> find a better term? [Note from DS: Peter is right, and this is >>> true in >>> English as well. The New Oxford Dictionary of English >>> definition of >>> "exemplar" is "a person or thing serving as a typical example or >>> appropriate model". The latter sense is normative; the former >>> is not.] >>> >>> LB: this is what the TEI by Example project was supposed to >>> provide. >>> Unfortunately it's not doing that. It would be good to have >>> set of >>> examples of how people have solved things. JC agrees: "case >>> studies". >>> PB says this is an issue of the scope of Council: instead of >>> doing this >>> ourselves, we should figure out how to liaise w/ other groups >>> doing >>> these activities. General agreement. >>> >>> LR asks, what is status of ODD? Should we focus on >>> improvements to ODD >>> features? SB: yes, but we should defer this so we can address >>> other >>> issues first. SR agrees; this isn't a core business of Council >>> in 2008; >>> we should treat it as a parallel activity. LR objects that >>> this ODD is >>> in fact essential to outreach, as many TEI communities can >>> contribute >>> via ODD modules. The importance of ODD means it should be on >>> our agenda >>> (even if we don't make changes). GB concurs that it may be a >>> mistake to >>> segregate ODD activity; customizing TEI is a basic activity. Any >>> outreach/education will connect with ODD. >>> >>> SR: We don't want to send the message "here's the language to >>> use, but >>> we're going to change it". ODD is unusual because it is tied >>> up with the >>> software that implements it. >>> >>> 1.2.2. Other Outreach and Internationalization Goals >>> >>> LR: Within Council, we should find a way to relate to external >>> projects >>> connected with TEI. We will integrate results of other groups; >>> some of >>> us will have duties to interact with specific ones. "I see >>> more and more >>> requests for short introductions on specific topics and offering >>> examples." We could provide consultation on these matters. DO >>> agrees: >>> this has always been Council's duty. For example, current funding >>> proposals before the National Endowment for the Humanities >>> include two >>> very TEI-centric projects. >>> >>> LR: This is true of internationalization also. >>> >>> Question: how do we identify the groups with which Council should >>> interact? LR suggests this is part of Council's activity. DO asks >>> whether we should issue invitations for groups who want Council >>> involvement. JC notes that when someone comes to TEI-L an asks >>> "can >>> someone help me?" we need to provide a name. DO says this >>> will become >>> more and more important in funding projects. >>> >>> LR concludes: we should systematize the responsibility of these >>> "corresponding persons". This will be added to the Galway meeting >>> agenda. >>> >>> 3. Global organization of Council >>> >>> 3.1 Communication >>> >>> The next discussion involved the TEI's communication platforms, >>> specifically the TEI website and our mailing lists. LR notes a >>> need for >>> Council workgroups or people to oversee both. The Board has >>> appointed a >>> website workgroup that we can provide input to. >>> >>> LB notes that service over the past year from Council email >>> list has not >>> been good; the server has been down too often. JC asks whether it >>> wouldn't make sense to have all TEI email lists hosted on tei- >>> c.org? SB >>> raises a difficulty: the main list TEI-L is run on commercial >>> software. >>> No alternative software that he is aware of supports that >>> level of >>> service. Can we find open-source software? LB says that TEI-L is >>> working fine and is not the issue. But perhaps the tei-council >>> list >>> should be moved. Level of service is more important than >>> whether or not >>> all the lists are in one place. >>> >>> LR summarizes that we need to confirm ongoing support for the >>> lists at >>> Virginia, or explore the possibility of merging or moving list >>> hosts. >>> DS offers to confer with his Virginia colleagues on that >>> status of the >>> system hosting the lists. [He reported back that >>> lists.village.virginia.edu, the host for the TEI Council and >>> Board email >>> lists, is indeed in the process of being merged with the new >>> tei-c.org >>> host, which will have 24/7 tech support; and the IATH system >>> administrator is looking into adding full-text search on the >>> tei-council >>> list archive.] >>> >>> 3.2 Responsibilities >>> >>> LR moves on to a discussion of general TEI Consortium >>> responsibilities >>> and Council's part in them. DO raises the issue of who "has >>> the keys" to >>> different things: who has responsibility, for example, for the >>> SourceForge repository, for www.tei-c.org., etc? Should we >>> survey who >>> controls the different things we use? LR: Yes. if we know for >>> example >>> that U of Virgina has responsibility for the website, we need >>> to have a >>> single contact person. Likewise with Oxford's editorial >>> support. DO: we >>> don't have a single list of responsibilities. We should maybe put >>> together before Galway meeting: SourceForge, mailing lists, >>> website, >>> Wiki... who has the passwords and oversight. SB agrees that >>> such an >>> inventory is important. LR asks that all "keyholders" please >>> send a note >>> to DS for inclusion in the minutes. >>> >>> 3.2.1 "Keyholders" >>> >>> DS received the following information on keyholding >>> responsibilities for >>> TEI resources: >>> >>> Mailing Lists (active): >>> >>> @ Brown University: Syd Bauman default admin, plus others in >>> parentheses >>> >>> TEI-L >>> TEI-MEET >>> TEI-MEMBERS (Veronika Lux) >>> TEI-MS-SIG (Elena Pierazzo) >>> TEI-MUSIC-SIG (Raffaele Viglianti, Gabriel Board, Dot >>> Porter) >>> TEI-OL-SIG (David Durand) >>> TEI-SIGS (Susan Schreibman) >>> TEI-SOM (David Durand) >>> >>> @ Indiana University >>> >>> TEILIB-L [who is admin??] >>> >>> @ New York University >>> >>> tei-presentation [who is admin??] >>> >>> @ Oxford [who is admin??] >>> >>> tei-chars >>> tei-extensions >>> tei-i18n >>> tei-iso-fs >>> tei-meta >>> >>> @ SourceForge [same admins as SourceForge repository??] >>> >>> tei-choice >>> tei-ontology-sig >>> >>> @ University of Virginia, hosted at IATH (Daniel Pitti), >>> list admin >>> David Sewell: >>> >>> tei-board >>> tei-council >>> >>> >>> Membership Database: >>> >>> Veronica Lux (+ others??). Syd Bauman has r/o access. >>> >>> Perforce repository (at OUCS): >>> >>> Lou Burnard, chief administrator; others with r/w access >>> are Syd >>> Bauman, James Cummings, Sebastian Rahtz. >>> >>> Servers: >>> >>> www.tei-c.org.uk at Oxford, still used for Vault >>> (Sebastian Rahtz >>> and Lou Burnard) >>> tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk, used for test Roma and Guidelines >>> (Sebastian Rahtz) >>> -- including Debian repository, administered by >>> Sebastian Rahtz >>> www.tei-c.org at U of Virginia, main TEI server, >>> administered by >>> Daniel Pitti >>> >>> SourceForge: >>> >>> Project admins are Syd Bauman, Lou Burnard, Sebastian >>> Rahtz. As of >>> these minutes, there are a total of 14 developers (with >>> rights to >>> update source), list viewable at >>> https://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php? >>> group_id=106328. >>> >>> TEI Live CD source: owned by Sebastian Rahtz >>> >>> TEI Website (on www.tei-c.org): >>> >>> administered by Christine Ruotolo. Other people with read/ >>> write >>> access to the OpenCMS repository used for the website: Lou >>> Burnard, >>> Sebastian Rahtz(??). >>> >>> TEI Wiki administrators: >>> >>> James Cummings (Council), Piotr Banski, Kevin Hawkins, >>> Sebastian >>> Rahtz. The system administrator in charge is Shayne >>> Brandon of IATH >>> at UVa. >>> >>> 4. Preparation for Galway meeting >>> >>> LR: Dates for the meeting are fixed, April 2-4. On Wednesday >>> the 2nd >>> there will be a symposium organized by Malte Rehbein, who has >>> issued a >>> Call for Papers. The Council meeting proper will take place on >>> the 3rd >>> and 4th. We don't have a specific plan for Council members to >>> participate in the symposium, but it is expected that we will >>> attend and >>> contribute. AC says that the organizers are focusing on >>> presentations >>> from the Irish TEI community. They will see how many local >>> presentations they have and will then ask Council if they need >>> supplementation. Susan Schreibman is the contact person/ >>> organizer. LR >>> notes that we have a group hotel rate, so no need to worry about >>> lodging. We'll plan to start the Council meeting early on >>> Thursday, and >>> to end by 4 p.m. Friday afternoon. DO will post to tei- >>> council about >>> arrangements. >>> >>> Information about Council funding of the meeting is on the TEI >>> Wiki: >>> >>> http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/TEI-Council- >>> FAQ#What_funding_is_available_for_Council_Activities.3F >>> >>> -- >>> David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager >>> ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press >>> PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA >>> Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 >>> Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 >>> Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ >>> _______________________________________________ tei-council >>> mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http:// >>> lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >> -- >> Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD >> Department Chair and Associate Professor of English >> Director, Digital Medievalist Project http:// >> www.digitalmedievalist.org/ >> Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ >> >> Department of English >> University of Lethbridge >> Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 >> Vox +1 403 329-2377 >> Fax +1 403 382-7191 >> Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca >> WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Thu Feb 14 05:50:19 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:50:19 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> > "Members disagree over whether that venue should be SourceForge, LB arguing yes, SB and AC saying no." > -[I dont remember this disagreement being about where *discussion* of bugs etc should take place but maybe I'm wrong] I think you are right. The disagreement was rather on the use of SourceForge as the privileged place for everybody -so not only council- to report issues; the reason of disagreement being that some people believe SourceForge is to hight an obstacle to the less technically aware part of the TEI community and probably also an inappropriate tool for certain types of more prosy requests/comments. Arianna > > > >> Laurent >> >> Le 13 f?vr. 08 ? 17:50, Daniel O'Donnell a ?crit : >> >> >>> Looks good to me. I think it is an accurate reflection of the general >>> thrust of the discussion: there were one or two places where I thought >>> "is that really what x said?" but I think we wouldn't be able to get >>> more accurate without a meta-meeting and the conclusions are, as >>> far as >>> I'm aware, all accurate. >>> >>> I saw a couple of dittographies of a couple of words but now I can't >>> find them. >>> >>> The question-marked attributions to me are all things I'm willing to >>> have said ;) >>> >>> -dan >>> >>> On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 11:33 -0500, David Sewell wrote: >>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> Here is a preliminary text version of the minutes, which I'll plug >>>> into >>>> the XML template once it is final. Could everyone look it over and >>>> provide me with any necessary corrections or additional info? In >>>> particular: >>>> >>>> * search for '??' to see queries, mostly involving email list >>>> ownership >>>> >>>> * double-check attributions. I may not always have distinguished >>>> properly between Lou and Gabriel's voice (and possibly Sebastian >>>> once or >>>> twice), or between Paul and Dan. To give me better distinction in >>>> regional accents, I no doubt should have asked for ground rules at >>>> the >>>> start, e.g. "Lou, can we have you use a broad Scots dialect on this >>>> call, and Dan, could you emphasise the Canadian by doing either >>>> Bob and >>>> Doug McKenzie or Jean Chr?tien, your choice?" >>>> >>>> David >>>> >>>> ============== >>>> >>>> MINUTES OF TEI COUNCIL CONFERENCE CALL, 7 FEBRUARY 2008 >>>> >>>> Called to order 1300 UTC >>>> >>>> Participants: >>>> >>>> Gabriel Bodard (GB), Peter Boot (PB), Arianna Ciula (AC), >>>> James Cummings >>>> (JC), Syd Bauman (SB), Lou Burnard (LB), Dan O'Donnell (DO), >>>> Sebastian >>>> Rahtz (SR), David Sewell (DS; minutes), and Laurent Romary >>>> (LR; Chair). >>>> >>>> Unable to participate: >>>> >>>> Tone Bruvik, Elena Pierazzo, Manfred Thaller, and John >>>> Walsh. >>>> >>>> 1. Scope of Council Activities >>>> >>>> 1.1 Technical Activities >>>> >>>> 1.1.1 Guideline Status >>>> >>>> LR asks us to consider the current status of Guidelines. How >>>> are we >>>> handling updates and point releases? SR reminds us that he had >>>> raised the >>>> question of fixed release vs. varying bug-fix releases and had >>>> recommended a 2x per year schedule. GB, AC, and SB agreed that >>>> practice and >>>> consensus was for a fixed timetable. SR notes that the 1.0.1 >>>> release is >>>> a "release zero", not a 6-month release. LR concurs: the next >>>> release >>>> will be over the summer, unless serious bugs appear. JC notes >>>> that >>>> everyone has access to Sourceforge for intermediate stages. >>>> >>>> Should we have "stable/unstable" distinction? It's helpful for >>>> people to >>>> test releases. >>>> GB: there is a fixed date in TEI timetable, the November >>>> meeting. Shall we say >>>> there will always be a pre-release of next major release >>>> before Nov? >>>> >>>> JC asks about about numbering of releases, so people can cite the >>>> version of the Guidelines they are using. SR: the only way to >>>> do this is >>>> by release dates, where the date is the version number. LR >>>> notes that a >>>> release is more than just a source version on SourceForge, it >>>> involves a >>>> lot of checking. DO asks if someone could just write up a >>>> numbering >>>> language system for us to put on a Web page? A new version >>>> number will >>>> be added when there is an actual feature/module change, not >>>> just changes >>>> to Guidelines language. >>>> >>>> LR: can we stabilize a formulation? >>>> >>>> Releases every 6 months; a pre-release before the November >>>> meeting; unstable SourceForge branches are maintained and >>>> identified >>>> by SourceForge revision number. A "release" consists of the >>>> SourceForge update, creation of compiled packages and >>>> schemas, and an >>>> update of the Guidelines (LB). >>>> >>>> 1.1.2 Bug reporting >>>> >>>> LR asks about the current situation with the stability of the >>>> Guidelines? do we still have major bugs, or just tiny issues >>>> over next >>>> months? JC: it's not clear where bug reports are going any >>>> more. LB: it >>>> is clear we want bug reports to go to SourceForge, into the >>>> tracker. >>>> But we haven't agreed on: (1) how to make sure Council >>>> provides input, >>>> or who is responsible; (2) the way to build a workflow to take >>>> suggestions & deal with them. DO: this will be an important >>>> thing to >>>> discuss in Galway. LB: is this channel best way of soliciting >>>> input? SB: >>>> no, many people are scared by SourceForge. We need to have an >>>> email/list >>>> mechanism. LB: then at the point in discussion where there is >>>> general >>>> agreement, someone needs to write it up as a SourceForge feature >>>> request. LR notes the gap between TEI-L and TEI Council. DO: >>>> So we need >>>> formally to keep an eye on TEI-L, and put into SourceForge bug >>>> reports >>>> and feature requests from there. JC: shouldn't all Council >>>> members do >>>> this? DO: but it helps to have someone designated. LR agrees; >>>> at the >>>> Member's Meeting, we discussed the dropping of Guideline >>>> "editors", with >>>> work on them organized by Council, but I strongly recommend we >>>> provide >>>> editorial support. We should make sure that Oxford has stable >>>> editorial >>>> support. DO: the decision was made to increase flexibility, >>>> not to >>>> remove input from the current editors. There is no mandate for >>>> "editors" in the (TEI Consortium) Bylaws, but we can Bylaws >>>> mandate, but >>>> we can still assign certain tasks as needed. >>>> >>>> LR recommends that Board discuss this matter; we need an "air >>>> traffic >>>> controller". >>>> >>>> There followed some additional discussion on bug reporting/ >>>> tracking >>>> procedures. DS suggests the possibility of a Wiki area on the >>>> TEI Wiki >>>> for bug discussion. SB suggests having a single email address >>>> for bug >>>> reports. DO objects that this creates multiple unofficial >>>> channels for >>>> bug reports. We don't want multiple lists. SB replies that >>>> we're going >>>> to have this no matter what. LB replies we can insist on paying >>>> attention only to 2 places and having bug reports sent to >>>> specified >>>> venues. Members disagree over whether that venue should be >>>> SourceForge, >>>> LB arguing yes, SB and AC saying no. JC says that if bugs are >>>> to be >>>> discussed on an email list, surely that should be TEI-L. AC >>>> notes some >>>> people don't understand the distinctions between the different >>>> venues. >>>> We need a mechanism to facilitate communication for less >>>> technically >>>> adept users. DO asks, why not have a volunteer from Council as >>>> facilitator? >>>> >>>> LR: there's a problem with having too many tools. Let's have a >>>> clear >>>> mechanism. TEI-L is a good place for all these discussions; >>>> let us not >>>> have lots of side discussions. >>>> >>>> DO(??): Okay, let's use SourceForge as our single location, with >>>> mechanisms for helping people report who don't use >>>> SourceForge. LR: >>>> there should be tutorials on how to report. If we reduce >>>> number of >>>> tools, people can be more aware of them. >>>> >>>> DO: it sounds like we have identified a need for a release >>>> secretary and >>>> a SourceForge secretary, and an editorial support group. >>>> >>>> 1.2 Outreach, Education >>>> >>>> 1.2.1 ODD >>>> >>>> LR begins by suggesting that "exemplars" and "ODD" are key >>>> word are key >>>> words. One of main ways we can offer entry into the TEI >>>> environment is >>>> by adding ready-made schemas. SR cautions that if we create >>>> exemplars by >>>> committee, it will be difficult to get results. SB says that >>>> the current >>>> crop of exemplars are good for creating ODDs, but not so good for >>>> tackling various tasks. We don't have sample schemas that are >>>> good for >>>> encoding. For example: we don't show how to use constraints. >>>> SR observes >>>> that an exemplar constraining types might not be useful for >>>> individual >>>> needs. TEI Tite and TEI Lite, on the other hand, are intended >>>> to "be >>>> used"; LB concurs that whatever the original intentions behind >>>> Lite >>>> were, it is used as an "off the shelf" product. GB: we don't >>>> want >>>> example ODDs, we want example projects. Peter Boot notes word >>>> "exemplar" is ambiguous, especially for non-English speakers; >>>> can we >>>> find a better term? [Note from DS: Peter is right, and this is >>>> true in >>>> English as well. The New Oxford Dictionary of English >>>> definition of >>>> "exemplar" is "a person or thing serving as a typical example or >>>> appropriate model". The latter sense is normative; the former >>>> is not.] >>>> >>>> LB: this is what the TEI by Example project was supposed to >>>> provide. >>>> Unfortunately it's not doing that. It would be good to have >>>> set of >>>> examples of how people have solved things. JC agrees: "case >>>> studies". >>>> PB says this is an issue of the scope of Council: instead of >>>> doing this >>>> ourselves, we should figure out how to liaise w/ other groups >>>> doing >>>> these activities. General agreement. >>>> >>>> LR asks, what is status of ODD? Should we focus on >>>> improvements to ODD >>>> features? SB: yes, but we should defer this so we can address >>>> other >>>> issues first. SR agrees; this isn't a core business of Council >>>> in 2008; >>>> we should treat it as a parallel activity. LR objects that >>>> this ODD is >>>> in fact essential to outreach, as many TEI communities can >>>> contribute >>>> via ODD modules. The importance of ODD means it should be on >>>> our agenda >>>> (even if we don't make changes). GB concurs that it may be a >>>> mistake to >>>> segregate ODD activity; customizing TEI is a basic activity. Any >>>> outreach/education will connect with ODD. >>>> >>>> SR: We don't want to send the message "here's the language to >>>> use, but >>>> we're going to change it". ODD is unusual because it is tied >>>> up with the >>>> software that implements it. >>>> >>>> 1.2.2. Other Outreach and Internationalization Goals >>>> >>>> LR: Within Council, we should find a way to relate to external >>>> projects >>>> connected with TEI. We will integrate results of other groups; >>>> some of >>>> us will have duties to interact with specific ones. "I see >>>> more and more >>>> requests for short introductions on specific topics and offering >>>> examples." We could provide consultation on these matters. DO >>>> agrees: >>>> this has always been Council's duty. For example, current funding >>>> proposals before the National Endowment for the Humanities >>>> include two >>>> very TEI-centric projects. >>>> >>>> LR: This is true of internationalization also. >>>> >>>> Question: how do we identify the groups with which Council should >>>> interact? LR suggests this is part of Council's activity. DO asks >>>> whether we should issue invitations for groups who want Council >>>> involvement. JC notes that when someone comes to TEI-L an asks >>>> "can >>>> someone help me?" we need to provide a name. DO says this >>>> will become >>>> more and more important in funding projects. >>>> >>>> LR concludes: we should systematize the responsibility of these >>>> "corresponding persons". This will be added to the Galway meeting >>>> agenda. >>>> >>>> 3. Global organization of Council >>>> >>>> 3.1 Communication >>>> >>>> The next discussion involved the TEI's communication platforms, >>>> specifically the TEI website and our mailing lists. LR notes a >>>> need for >>>> Council workgroups or people to oversee both. The Board has >>>> appointed a >>>> website workgroup that we can provide input to. >>>> >>>> LB notes that service over the past year from Council email >>>> list has not >>>> been good; the server has been down too often. JC asks whether it >>>> wouldn't make sense to have all TEI email lists hosted on tei- >>>> c.org? SB >>>> raises a difficulty: the main list TEI-L is run on commercial >>>> software. >>>> No alternative software that he is aware of supports that >>>> level of >>>> service. Can we find open-source software? LB says that TEI-L is >>>> working fine and is not the issue. But perhaps the tei-council >>>> list >>>> should be moved. Level of service is more important than >>>> whether or not >>>> all the lists are in one place. >>>> >>>> LR summarizes that we need to confirm ongoing support for the >>>> lists at >>>> Virginia, or explore the possibility of merging or moving list >>>> hosts. >>>> DS offers to confer with his Virginia colleagues on that >>>> status of the >>>> system hosting the lists. [He reported back that >>>> lists.village.virginia.edu, the host for the TEI Council and >>>> Board email >>>> lists, is indeed in the process of being merged with the new >>>> tei-c.org >>>> host, which will have 24/7 tech support; and the IATH system >>>> administrator is looking into adding full-text search on the >>>> tei-council >>>> list archive.] >>>> >>>> 3.2 Responsibilities >>>> >>>> LR moves on to a discussion of general TEI Consortium >>>> responsibilities >>>> and Council's part in them. DO raises the issue of who "has >>>> the keys" to >>>> different things: who has responsibility, for example, for the >>>> SourceForge repository, for www.tei-c.org., etc? Should we >>>> survey who >>>> controls the different things we use? LR: Yes. if we know for >>>> example >>>> that U of Virgina has responsibility for the website, we need >>>> to have a >>>> single contact person. Likewise with Oxford's editorial >>>> support. DO: we >>>> don't have a single list of responsibilities. We should maybe put >>>> together before Galway meeting: SourceForge, mailing lists, >>>> website, >>>> Wiki... who has the passwords and oversight. SB agrees that >>>> such an >>>> inventory is important. LR asks that all "keyholders" please >>>> send a note >>>> to DS for inclusion in the minutes. >>>> >>>> 3.2.1 "Keyholders" >>>> >>>> DS received the following information on keyholding >>>> responsibilities for >>>> TEI resources: >>>> >>>> Mailing Lists (active): >>>> >>>> @ Brown University: Syd Bauman default admin, plus others in >>>> parentheses >>>> >>>> TEI-L >>>> TEI-MEET >>>> TEI-MEMBERS (Veronika Lux) >>>> TEI-MS-SIG (Elena Pierazzo) >>>> TEI-MUSIC-SIG (Raffaele Viglianti, Gabriel Board, Dot >>>> Porter) >>>> TEI-OL-SIG (David Durand) >>>> TEI-SIGS (Susan Schreibman) >>>> TEI-SOM (David Durand) >>>> >>>> @ Indiana University >>>> >>>> TEILIB-L [who is admin??] >>>> >>>> @ New York University >>>> >>>> tei-presentation [who is admin??] >>>> >>>> @ Oxford [who is admin??] >>>> >>>> tei-chars >>>> tei-extensions >>>> tei-i18n >>>> tei-iso-fs >>>> tei-meta >>>> >>>> @ SourceForge [same admins as SourceForge repository??] >>>> >>>> tei-choice >>>> tei-ontology-sig >>>> >>>> @ University of Virginia, hosted at IATH (Daniel Pitti), >>>> list admin >>>> David Sewell: >>>> >>>> tei-board >>>> tei-council >>>> >>>> >>>> Membership Database: >>>> >>>> Veronica Lux (+ others??). Syd Bauman has r/o access. >>>> >>>> Perforce repository (at OUCS): >>>> >>>> Lou Burnard, chief administrator; others with r/w access >>>> are Syd >>>> Bauman, James Cummings, Sebastian Rahtz. >>>> >>>> Servers: >>>> >>>> www.tei-c.org.uk at Oxford, still used for Vault >>>> (Sebastian Rahtz >>>> and Lou Burnard) >>>> tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk, used for test Roma and Guidelines >>>> (Sebastian Rahtz) >>>> -- including Debian repository, administered by >>>> Sebastian Rahtz >>>> www.tei-c.org at U of Virginia, main TEI server, >>>> administered by >>>> Daniel Pitti >>>> >>>> SourceForge: >>>> >>>> Project admins are Syd Bauman, Lou Burnard, Sebastian >>>> Rahtz. As of >>>> these minutes, there are a total of 14 developers (with >>>> rights to >>>> update source), list viewable at >>>> https://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php? >>>> group_id=106328. >>>> >>>> TEI Live CD source: owned by Sebastian Rahtz >>>> >>>> TEI Website (on www.tei-c.org): >>>> >>>> administered by Christine Ruotolo. Other people with read/ >>>> write >>>> access to the OpenCMS repository used for the website: Lou >>>> Burnard, >>>> Sebastian Rahtz(??). >>>> >>>> TEI Wiki administrators: >>>> >>>> James Cummings (Council), Piotr Banski, Kevin Hawkins, >>>> Sebastian >>>> Rahtz. The system administrator in charge is Shayne >>>> Brandon of IATH >>>> at UVa. >>>> >>>> 4. Preparation for Galway meeting >>>> >>>> LR: Dates for the meeting are fixed, April 2-4. On Wednesday >>>> the 2nd >>>> there will be a symposium organized by Malte Rehbein, who has >>>> issued a >>>> Call for Papers. The Council meeting proper will take place on >>>> the 3rd >>>> and 4th. We don't have a specific plan for Council members to >>>> participate in the symposium, but it is expected that we will >>>> attend and >>>> contribute. AC says that the organizers are focusing on >>>> presentations >>>> from the Irish TEI community. They will see how many local >>>> presentations they have and will then ask Council if they need >>>> supplementation. Susan Schreibman is the contact person/ >>>> organizer. LR >>>> notes that we have a group hotel rate, so no need to worry about >>>> lodging. We'll plan to start the Council meeting early on >>>> Thursday, and >>>> to end by 4 p.m. Friday afternoon. DO will post to tei- >>>> council about >>>> arrangements. >>>> >>>> Information about Council funding of the meeting is on the TEI >>>> Wiki: >>>> >>>> http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/TEI-Council- >>>> FAQ#What_funding_is_available_for_Council_Activities.3F >>>> >>>> -- >>>> David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager >>>> ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press >>>> PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA >>>> Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 >>>> Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 >>>> Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ >>>> _______________________________________________ tei-council >>>> mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http:// >>>> lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>>> >>> -- >>> Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD >>> Department Chair and Associate Professor of English >>> Director, Digital Medievalist Project http:// >>> www.digitalmedievalist.org/ >>> Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ >>> >>> Department of English >>> University of Lethbridge >>> Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 >>> Vox +1 403 329-2377 >>> Fax +1 403 382-7191 >>> Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca >>> WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Feb 14 06:02:09 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:02:09 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> And that's the reason why I advocated to see TEI-L as the main informal information exchange channel, while having an air traffic controller making sure that relevant items are moved to SF and discussed in the council (when applicable). Cheers, Laurent Le 14 f?vr. 08 ? 11:50, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > > >> "Members disagree over whether that venue should be SourceForge, >> LB arguing yes, SB and AC saying no." >> -[I dont remember this disagreement being about where *discussion* >> of bugs etc should take place but maybe I'm wrong] > > I think you are right. The disagreement was rather on the use of > SourceForge as the privileged place for everybody -so not only > council- > to report issues; the reason of disagreement being that some people > believe SourceForge is to hight an obstacle to the less technically > aware part of the TEI community and probably also an inappropriate > tool > for certain types of more prosy requests/comments. > > Arianna >> >> >> >>> Laurent >>> >>> Le 13 f?vr. 08 ? 17:50, Daniel O'Donnell a ?crit : >>> >>> >>>> Looks good to me. I think it is an accurate reflection of the >>>> general >>>> thrust of the discussion: there were one or two places where I >>>> thought >>>> "is that really what x said?" but I think we wouldn't be able to >>>> get >>>> more accurate without a meta-meeting and the conclusions are, as >>>> far as >>>> I'm aware, all accurate. >>>> >>>> I saw a couple of dittographies of a couple of words but now I >>>> can't >>>> find them. >>>> >>>> The question-marked attributions to me are all things I'm >>>> willing to >>>> have said ;) >>>> >>>> -dan >>>> >>>> On Wed, 2008-02-13 at 11:33 -0500, David Sewell wrote: >>>> >>>>> All, >>>>> >>>>> Here is a preliminary text version of the minutes, which I'll plug >>>>> into >>>>> the XML template once it is final. Could everyone look it over and >>>>> provide me with any necessary corrections or additional info? In >>>>> particular: >>>>> >>>>> * search for '??' to see queries, mostly involving email list >>>>> ownership >>>>> >>>>> * double-check attributions. I may not always have distinguished >>>>> properly between Lou and Gabriel's voice (and possibly Sebastian >>>>> once or >>>>> twice), or between Paul and Dan. To give me better distinction in >>>>> regional accents, I no doubt should have asked for ground rules at >>>>> the >>>>> start, e.g. "Lou, can we have you use a broad Scots dialect on >>>>> this >>>>> call, and Dan, could you emphasise the Canadian by doing either >>>>> Bob and >>>>> Doug McKenzie or Jean Chr?tien, your choice?" >>>>> >>>>> David >>>>> >>>>> ============== >>>>> >>>>> MINUTES OF TEI COUNCIL CONFERENCE CALL, 7 FEBRUARY 2008 >>>>> >>>>> Called to order 1300 UTC >>>>> >>>>> Participants: >>>>> >>>>> Gabriel Bodard (GB), Peter Boot (PB), Arianna Ciula (AC), >>>>> James Cummings >>>>> (JC), Syd Bauman (SB), Lou Burnard (LB), Dan O'Donnell (DO), >>>>> Sebastian >>>>> Rahtz (SR), David Sewell (DS; minutes), and Laurent Romary >>>>> (LR; Chair). >>>>> >>>>> Unable to participate: >>>>> >>>>> Tone Bruvik, Elena Pierazzo, Manfred Thaller, and John >>>>> Walsh. >>>>> >>>>> 1. Scope of Council Activities >>>>> >>>>> 1.1 Technical Activities >>>>> >>>>> 1.1.1 Guideline Status >>>>> >>>>> LR asks us to consider the current status of Guidelines. How >>>>> are we >>>>> handling updates and point releases? SR reminds us that he had >>>>> raised the >>>>> question of fixed release vs. varying bug-fix releases and had >>>>> recommended a 2x per year schedule. GB, AC, and SB agreed that >>>>> practice and >>>>> consensus was for a fixed timetable. SR notes that the 1.0.1 >>>>> release is >>>>> a "release zero", not a 6-month release. LR concurs: the next >>>>> release >>>>> will be over the summer, unless serious bugs appear. JC notes >>>>> that >>>>> everyone has access to Sourceforge for intermediate stages. >>>>> >>>>> Should we have "stable/unstable" distinction? It's helpful for >>>>> people to >>>>> test releases. >>>>> GB: there is a fixed date in TEI timetable, the November >>>>> meeting. Shall we say >>>>> there will always be a pre-release of next major release >>>>> before Nov? >>>>> >>>>> JC asks about about numbering of releases, so people can >>>>> cite the >>>>> version of the Guidelines they are using. SR: the only way to >>>>> do this is >>>>> by release dates, where the date is the version number. LR >>>>> notes that a >>>>> release is more than just a source version on SourceForge, it >>>>> involves a >>>>> lot of checking. DO asks if someone could just write up a >>>>> numbering >>>>> language system for us to put on a Web page? A new version >>>>> number will >>>>> be added when there is an actual feature/module change, not >>>>> just changes >>>>> to Guidelines language. >>>>> >>>>> LR: can we stabilize a formulation? >>>>> >>>>> Releases every 6 months; a pre-release before the November >>>>> meeting; unstable SourceForge branches are maintained and >>>>> identified >>>>> by SourceForge revision number. A "release" consists of the >>>>> SourceForge update, creation of compiled packages and >>>>> schemas, and an >>>>> update of the Guidelines (LB). >>>>> >>>>> 1.1.2 Bug reporting >>>>> >>>>> LR asks about the current situation with the stability of the >>>>> Guidelines? do we still have major bugs, or just tiny issues >>>>> over next >>>>> months? JC: it's not clear where bug reports are going any >>>>> more. LB: it >>>>> is clear we want bug reports to go to SourceForge, into the >>>>> tracker. >>>>> But we haven't agreed on: (1) how to make sure Council >>>>> provides input, >>>>> or who is responsible; (2) the way to build a workflow to take >>>>> suggestions & deal with them. DO: this will be an important >>>>> thing to >>>>> discuss in Galway. LB: is this channel best way of soliciting >>>>> input? SB: >>>>> no, many people are scared by SourceForge. We need to have an >>>>> email/list >>>>> mechanism. LB: then at the point in discussion where there is >>>>> general >>>>> agreement, someone needs to write it up as a SourceForge >>>>> feature >>>>> request. LR notes the gap between TEI-L and TEI Council. DO: >>>>> So we need >>>>> formally to keep an eye on TEI-L, and put into SourceForge bug >>>>> reports >>>>> and feature requests from there. JC: shouldn't all Council >>>>> members do >>>>> this? DO: but it helps to have someone designated. LR agrees; >>>>> at the >>>>> Member's Meeting, we discussed the dropping of Guideline >>>>> "editors", with >>>>> work on them organized by Council, but I strongly recommend we >>>>> provide >>>>> editorial support. We should make sure that Oxford has stable >>>>> editorial >>>>> support. DO: the decision was made to increase flexibility, >>>>> not to >>>>> remove input from the current editors. There is no mandate >>>>> for >>>>> "editors" in the (TEI Consortium) Bylaws, but we can Bylaws >>>>> mandate, but >>>>> we can still assign certain tasks as needed. >>>>> >>>>> LR recommends that Board discuss this matter; we need an "air >>>>> traffic >>>>> controller". >>>>> >>>>> There followed some additional discussion on bug reporting/ >>>>> tracking >>>>> procedures. DS suggests the possibility of a Wiki area on the >>>>> TEI Wiki >>>>> for bug discussion. SB suggests having a single email address >>>>> for bug >>>>> reports. DO objects that this creates multiple unofficial >>>>> channels for >>>>> bug reports. We don't want multiple lists. SB replies that >>>>> we're going >>>>> to have this no matter what. LB replies we can insist on >>>>> paying >>>>> attention only to 2 places and having bug reports sent to >>>>> specified >>>>> venues. Members disagree over whether that venue should be >>>>> SourceForge, >>>>> LB arguing yes, SB and AC saying no. JC says that if bugs are >>>>> to be >>>>> discussed on an email list, surely that should be TEI-L. AC >>>>> notes some >>>>> people don't understand the distinctions between the different >>>>> venues. >>>>> We need a mechanism to facilitate communication for less >>>>> technically >>>>> adept users. DO asks, why not have a volunteer from Council as >>>>> facilitator? >>>>> >>>>> LR: there's a problem with having too many tools. Let's have a >>>>> clear >>>>> mechanism. TEI-L is a good place for all these discussions; >>>>> let us not >>>>> have lots of side discussions. >>>>> >>>>> DO(??): Okay, let's use SourceForge as our single location, >>>>> with >>>>> mechanisms for helping people report who don't use >>>>> SourceForge. LR: >>>>> there should be tutorials on how to report. If we reduce >>>>> number of >>>>> tools, people can be more aware of them. >>>>> >>>>> DO: it sounds like we have identified a need for a release >>>>> secretary and >>>>> a SourceForge secretary, and an editorial support group. >>>>> >>>>> 1.2 Outreach, Education >>>>> >>>>> 1.2.1 ODD >>>>> >>>>> LR begins by suggesting that "exemplars" and "ODD" are key >>>>> word are key >>>>> words. One of main ways we can offer entry into the TEI >>>>> environment is >>>>> by adding ready-made schemas. SR cautions that if we create >>>>> exemplars by >>>>> committee, it will be difficult to get results. SB says that >>>>> the current >>>>> crop of exemplars are good for creating ODDs, but not so >>>>> good for >>>>> tackling various tasks. We don't have sample schemas that are >>>>> good for >>>>> encoding. For example: we don't show how to use constraints. >>>>> SR observes >>>>> that an exemplar constraining types might not be useful for >>>>> individual >>>>> needs. TEI Tite and TEI Lite, on the other hand, are intended >>>>> to "be >>>>> used"; LB concurs that whatever the original intentions behind >>>>> Lite >>>>> were, it is used as an "off the shelf" product. GB: we don't >>>>> want >>>>> example ODDs, we want example projects. Peter Boot notes word >>>>> "exemplar" is ambiguous, especially for non-English speakers; >>>>> can we >>>>> find a better term? [Note from DS: Peter is right, and this is >>>>> true in >>>>> English as well. The New Oxford Dictionary of English >>>>> definition of >>>>> "exemplar" is "a person or thing serving as a typical >>>>> example or >>>>> appropriate model". The latter sense is normative; the former >>>>> is not.] >>>>> >>>>> LB: this is what the TEI by Example project was supposed to >>>>> provide. >>>>> Unfortunately it's not doing that. It would be good to have >>>>> set of >>>>> examples of how people have solved things. JC agrees: "case >>>>> studies". >>>>> PB says this is an issue of the scope of Council: instead of >>>>> doing this >>>>> ourselves, we should figure out how to liaise w/ other groups >>>>> doing >>>>> these activities. General agreement. >>>>> >>>>> LR asks, what is status of ODD? Should we focus on >>>>> improvements to ODD >>>>> features? SB: yes, but we should defer this so we can address >>>>> other >>>>> issues first. SR agrees; this isn't a core business of Council >>>>> in 2008; >>>>> we should treat it as a parallel activity. LR objects that >>>>> this ODD is >>>>> in fact essential to outreach, as many TEI communities can >>>>> contribute >>>>> via ODD modules. The importance of ODD means it should be on >>>>> our agenda >>>>> (even if we don't make changes). GB concurs that it may be a >>>>> mistake to >>>>> segregate ODD activity; customizing TEI is a basic >>>>> activity. Any >>>>> outreach/education will connect with ODD. >>>>> >>>>> SR: We don't want to send the message "here's the language to >>>>> use, but >>>>> we're going to change it". ODD is unusual because it is tied >>>>> up with the >>>>> software that implements it. >>>>> >>>>> 1.2.2. Other Outreach and Internationalization Goals >>>>> >>>>> LR: Within Council, we should find a way to relate to external >>>>> projects >>>>> connected with TEI. We will integrate results of other groups; >>>>> some of >>>>> us will have duties to interact with specific ones. "I see >>>>> more and more >>>>> requests for short introductions on specific topics and >>>>> offering >>>>> examples." We could provide consultation on these matters. DO >>>>> agrees: >>>>> this has always been Council's duty. For example, current >>>>> funding >>>>> proposals before the National Endowment for the Humanities >>>>> include two >>>>> very TEI-centric projects. >>>>> >>>>> LR: This is true of internationalization also. >>>>> >>>>> Question: how do we identify the groups with which Council >>>>> should >>>>> interact? LR suggests this is part of Council's activity. >>>>> DO asks >>>>> whether we should issue invitations for groups who want >>>>> Council >>>>> involvement. JC notes that when someone comes to TEI-L an asks >>>>> "can >>>>> someone help me?" we need to provide a name. DO says this >>>>> will become >>>>> more and more important in funding projects. >>>>> >>>>> LR concludes: we should systematize the responsibility of >>>>> these >>>>> "corresponding persons". This will be added to the Galway >>>>> meeting >>>>> agenda. >>>>> >>>>> 3. Global organization of Council >>>>> >>>>> 3.1 Communication >>>>> >>>>> The next discussion involved the TEI's communication >>>>> platforms, >>>>> specifically the TEI website and our mailing lists. LR notes a >>>>> need for >>>>> Council workgroups or people to oversee both. The Board has >>>>> appointed a >>>>> website workgroup that we can provide input to. >>>>> >>>>> LB notes that service over the past year from Council email >>>>> list has not >>>>> been good; the server has been down too often. JC asks >>>>> whether it >>>>> wouldn't make sense to have all TEI email lists hosted on tei- >>>>> c.org? SB >>>>> raises a difficulty: the main list TEI-L is run on commercial >>>>> software. >>>>> No alternative software that he is aware of supports that >>>>> level of >>>>> service. Can we find open-source software? LB says that >>>>> TEI-L is >>>>> working fine and is not the issue. But perhaps the tei-council >>>>> list >>>>> should be moved. Level of service is more important than >>>>> whether or not >>>>> all the lists are in one place. >>>>> >>>>> LR summarizes that we need to confirm ongoing support for the >>>>> lists at >>>>> Virginia, or explore the possibility of merging or moving list >>>>> hosts. >>>>> DS offers to confer with his Virginia colleagues on that >>>>> status of the >>>>> system hosting the lists. [He reported back that >>>>> lists.village.virginia.edu, the host for the TEI Council and >>>>> Board email >>>>> lists, is indeed in the process of being merged with the new >>>>> tei-c.org >>>>> host, which will have 24/7 tech support; and the IATH system >>>>> administrator is looking into adding full-text search on the >>>>> tei-council >>>>> list archive.] >>>>> >>>>> 3.2 Responsibilities >>>>> >>>>> LR moves on to a discussion of general TEI Consortium >>>>> responsibilities >>>>> and Council's part in them. DO raises the issue of who "has >>>>> the keys" to >>>>> different things: who has responsibility, for example, for the >>>>> SourceForge repository, for www.tei-c.org., etc? Should we >>>>> survey who >>>>> controls the different things we use? LR: Yes. if we know for >>>>> example >>>>> that U of Virgina has responsibility for the website, we need >>>>> to have a >>>>> single contact person. Likewise with Oxford's editorial >>>>> support. DO: we >>>>> don't have a single list of responsibilities. We should >>>>> maybe put >>>>> together before Galway meeting: SourceForge, mailing lists, >>>>> website, >>>>> Wiki... who has the passwords and oversight. SB agrees that >>>>> such an >>>>> inventory is important. LR asks that all "keyholders" please >>>>> send a note >>>>> to DS for inclusion in the minutes. >>>>> >>>>> 3.2.1 "Keyholders" >>>>> >>>>> DS received the following information on keyholding >>>>> responsibilities for >>>>> TEI resources: >>>>> >>>>> Mailing Lists (active): >>>>> >>>>> @ Brown University: Syd Bauman default admin, plus >>>>> others in >>>>> parentheses >>>>> >>>>> TEI-L >>>>> TEI-MEET >>>>> TEI-MEMBERS (Veronika Lux) >>>>> TEI-MS-SIG (Elena Pierazzo) >>>>> TEI-MUSIC-SIG (Raffaele Viglianti, Gabriel Board, Dot >>>>> Porter) >>>>> TEI-OL-SIG (David Durand) >>>>> TEI-SIGS (Susan Schreibman) >>>>> TEI-SOM (David Durand) >>>>> >>>>> @ Indiana University >>>>> >>>>> TEILIB-L [who is admin??] >>>>> >>>>> @ New York University >>>>> >>>>> tei-presentation [who is admin??] >>>>> >>>>> @ Oxford [who is admin??] >>>>> >>>>> tei-chars >>>>> tei-extensions >>>>> tei-i18n >>>>> tei-iso-fs >>>>> tei-meta >>>>> >>>>> @ SourceForge [same admins as SourceForge repository??] >>>>> >>>>> tei-choice >>>>> tei-ontology-sig >>>>> >>>>> @ University of Virginia, hosted at IATH (Daniel Pitti), >>>>> list admin >>>>> David Sewell: >>>>> >>>>> tei-board >>>>> tei-council >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Membership Database: >>>>> >>>>> Veronica Lux (+ others??). Syd Bauman has r/o access. >>>>> >>>>> Perforce repository (at OUCS): >>>>> >>>>> Lou Burnard, chief administrator; others with r/w access >>>>> are Syd >>>>> Bauman, James Cummings, Sebastian Rahtz. >>>>> >>>>> Servers: >>>>> >>>>> www.tei-c.org.uk at Oxford, still used for Vault >>>>> (Sebastian Rahtz >>>>> and Lou Burnard) >>>>> tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk, used for test Roma and Guidelines >>>>> (Sebastian Rahtz) >>>>> -- including Debian repository, administered by >>>>> Sebastian Rahtz >>>>> www.tei-c.org at U of Virginia, main TEI server, >>>>> administered by >>>>> Daniel Pitti >>>>> >>>>> SourceForge: >>>>> >>>>> Project admins are Syd Bauman, Lou Burnard, Sebastian >>>>> Rahtz. As of >>>>> these minutes, there are a total of 14 developers (with >>>>> rights to >>>>> update source), list viewable at >>>>> https://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php? >>>>> group_id=106328. >>>>> >>>>> TEI Live CD source: owned by Sebastian Rahtz >>>>> >>>>> TEI Website (on www.tei-c.org): >>>>> >>>>> administered by Christine Ruotolo. Other people with read/ >>>>> write >>>>> access to the OpenCMS repository used for the website: Lou >>>>> Burnard, >>>>> Sebastian Rahtz(??). >>>>> >>>>> TEI Wiki administrators: >>>>> >>>>> James Cummings (Council), Piotr Banski, Kevin Hawkins, >>>>> Sebastian >>>>> Rahtz. The system administrator in charge is Shayne >>>>> Brandon of IATH >>>>> at UVa. >>>>> >>>>> 4. Preparation for Galway meeting >>>>> >>>>> LR: Dates for the meeting are fixed, April 2-4. On Wednesday >>>>> the 2nd >>>>> there will be a symposium organized by Malte Rehbein, who has >>>>> issued a >>>>> Call for Papers. The Council meeting proper will take place on >>>>> the 3rd >>>>> and 4th. We don't have a specific plan for Council members to >>>>> participate in the symposium, but it is expected that we will >>>>> attend and >>>>> contribute. AC says that the organizers are focusing on >>>>> presentations >>>>> from the Irish TEI community. They will see how many local >>>>> presentations they have and will then ask Council if they need >>>>> supplementation. Susan Schreibman is the contact person/ >>>>> organizer. LR >>>>> notes that we have a group hotel rate, so no need to worry >>>>> about >>>>> lodging. We'll plan to start the Council meeting early on >>>>> Thursday, and >>>>> to end by 4 p.m. Friday afternoon. DO will post to tei- >>>>> council about >>>>> arrangements. >>>>> >>>>> Information about Council funding of the meeting is on the TEI >>>>> Wiki: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/TEI-Council- >>>>> FAQ#What_funding_is_available_for_Council_Activities.3F >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager >>>>> ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press >>>>> PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA >>>>> Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 >>>>> Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 >>>>> Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ >>>>> _______________________________________________ tei-council >>>>> mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http:// >>>>> lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD >>>> Department Chair and Associate Professor of English >>>> Director, Digital Medievalist Project http:// >>>> www.digitalmedievalist.org/ >>>> Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ >>>> >>>> Department of English >>>> University of Lethbridge >>>> Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 >>>> Vox +1 403 329-2377 >>>> Fax +1 403 382-7191 >>>> Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca >>>> WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> tei-council mailing list >>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 14 10:02:50 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:02:50 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47B4581A.3020605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > And that's the reason why I advocated to see TEI-L as the main > informal information exchange channel, while having an air traffic > controller making sure that relevant items are moved to SF and > discussed in the council (when applicable). > Cheers, > Laurent Which is what I thought I was also saying! So maybe we are in agreement after all... From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Feb 14 10:24:20 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:24:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <E125FDC9-3DBE-4821-B0FB-DE12021E755F@indiana.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47B35286.1020807@xs4all.nl> <E125FDC9-3DBE-4821-B0FB-DE12021E755F@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802141015010.36145@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Aha. Yes, I obviously did get confused about a couple of the participants. It seemed to me that someone with a European accent joined the call after a half hour or so. I thought this was Peter (you had said you couldn't make it before time X, and I forgot what "time X" was, so it was in my head that you might be joining late). Could it have been Manfred? The accent was in the range of Dutch/German. This was the participant who noted the problem of the word "exemplar" for non-English speakers. I thought I had added Paul Schaffner to the list of participants. If Paul wasn't on the call, then obviously it was John instead--so John, if you see anything in my transcript that should be credited to you, let me know. Thanks for the other updates and corrections, which I'll incorporate. David On Wed, 13 Feb 2008, John A. Walsh wrote: > And I was a participant. Maybe David had me confused with Peter, although our > accents are quite different. :-) > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Feb 14 11:06:05 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:06:05 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802141015010.36145@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47B35286.1020807@xs4all.nl> <E125FDC9-3DBE-4821-B0FB-DE12021E755F@indiana.edu> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802141015010.36145@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: <1203005165.7782.1.camel@odonned-eng06> Hi David, Recording secretary is a thankless task and these are excellent minutes: I hope you're understanding the joshing in the good natured way it is intended. Using dialectology to work out who is who is above and beyond: thank you very much! I don't believe it could be Manfred: he emailed me to say he was somehow locked out of the conference call. We haven't figured out how come yet. -dan On Thu, 2008-02-14 at 10:24 -0500, David Sewell wrote: > Aha. Yes, I obviously did get confused about a couple of the > participants. > > It seemed to me that someone with a European accent joined the call > after a half hour or so. I thought this was Peter (you had said you > couldn't make it before time X, and I forgot what "time X" was, so it > was in my head that you might be joining late). Could it have been > Manfred? The accent was in the range of Dutch/German. This was the > participant who noted the problem of the word "exemplar" for non-English > speakers. > > I thought I had added Paul Schaffner to the list of participants. If > Paul wasn't on the call, then obviously it was John instead--so John, if > you see anything in my transcript that should be credited to you, let me > know. > > Thanks for the other updates and corrections, which I'll incorporate. > > David > > On Wed, 13 Feb 2008, John A. Walsh wrote: > > > And I was a participant. Maybe David had me confused with Peter, although our > > accents are quite different. :-) > > > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative <http://www.tei-c.org/> Director, Digital Medievalist Project <http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/> Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Feb 14 11:09:28 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:09:28 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B37B25.2090904@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47B32216.6020208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B37B25.2090904@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18356.26552.682384.172572@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > >> TEI Wiki administrators: > >> James Cummings (Council), Piotr Banski, Kevin Hawkins, Sebastian > >> Rahtz. The system administrator in charge is Shayne Brandon of IATH > >> at UVa. SR> take my name off here, I haven't touched it for ages... JC> Does that mean you actually want your admin rights revoked as JC> well? Of course, Sebastian's name should not be removed if the admin rights are not revoked. This is not a list of who has been active lately, but who has keys. From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Feb 14 11:11:09 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 09:11:09 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <18356.26552.682384.172572@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47B32216.6020208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B37B25.2090904@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18356.26552.682384.172572@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <1203005469.7782.9.camel@odonned-eng06> On Thu, 2008-02-14 at 11:09 -0500, Syd Bauman wrote: > > >> TEI Wiki administrators: > > >> James Cummings (Council), Piotr Banski, Kevin Hawkins, Sebastian > > >> Rahtz. The system administrator in charge is Shayne Brandon of IATH > > >> at UVa. > SR> take my name off here, I haven't touched it for ages... > > JC> Does that mean you actually want your admin rights revoked as > JC> well? > > Of course, Sebastian's name should not be removed if the admin rights > are not revoked. This is not a list of who has been active lately, > but who has keys. Good point, although it *is* also good to know who's using their keys. This has been an illuminating exercise. I think I'll ask the same thing of the board. > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative <http://www.tei-c.org/> Director, Digital Medievalist Project <http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/> Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Feb 14 11:16:39 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:16:39 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B33C73.3040803@kcl.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47B33C73.3040803@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18356.26983.692444.783900@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > I probably haven't made this clear enough, but the contact and > organiser is Malte Rehbein (malte.rehbein at nuigalway.ie). Susan is > moving to Ireland to take an important post as head of the Digital > Humanities Observatory and, as member of the board, has coordinated > with me, Dan and Sebastian the original discussion with Malte when > there wasn't a council chair yet and we couldn't commit to a date. Agreed. It is time to let poor Susan off the hook (after all, she is not on Council), and let LR & MR make the arrangements. From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Feb 14 12:53:10 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:53:10 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <18356.26983.692444.783900@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47B33C73.3040803@kcl.ac.uk> <18356.26983.692444.783900@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <1203011590.7782.11.camel@odonned-eng06> On Thu, 2008-02-14 at 11:16 -0500, Syd Bauman wrote: > > I probably haven't made this clear enough, but the contact and > > organiser is Malte Rehbein (malte.rehbein at nuigalway.ie). Susan is > > moving to Ireland to take an important post as head of the Digital > > Humanities Observatory and, as member of the board, has coordinated > > with me, Dan and Sebastian the original discussion with Malte when > > there wasn't a council chair yet and we couldn't commit to a date. > > Agreed. It is time to let poor Susan off the hook (after all, she is > not on Council), and let LR & MR make the arrangements. > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council She's keen on staying on, I believe due to her move to Ireland at the end of the month, though not presumably as the council rep. -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative <http://www.tei-c.org/> Director, Digital Medievalist Project <http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/> Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Feb 14 12:57:18 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:57:18 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B4581A.3020605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> <47B4581A.3020605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1203011838.7782.18.camel@odonned-eng06> On Thu, 2008-02-14 at 15:02 +0000, Lou's Laptop wrote: > Laurent Romary wrote: > > And that's the reason why I advocated to see TEI-L as the main > > informal information exchange channel, while having an air traffic > > controller making sure that relevant items are moved to SF and > > discussed in the council (when applicable). > > Cheers, > > Laurent > > Which is what I thought I was also saying! > > So maybe we are in agreement after all... > Me too! Hooray, all will have prizes! > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative <http://www.tei-c.org/> Director, Digital Medievalist Project <http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/> Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Feb 14 14:35:45 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 14:35:45 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <1203011838.7782.18.camel@odonned-eng06> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> <47B4581A.3020605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1203011838.7782.18.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <18356.38929.924111.799239@emt.wwp.brown.edu> LR> And that's the reason why I advocated to see TEI-L as the main LR> informal information exchange channel, while having an air LR> traffic controller making sure that relevant items are moved to LR> SF and discussed in the council (when applicable). LB> Which is what I thought I was also saying! LB> So maybe we are in agreement after all... DO> Me too! Hooray, all will have prizes! Sigh. Guess I don't get a prize, 'cause I was the one who thinks this may be insufficient. I believe that not only do some people find Sourceforge very daunting, but also that some people are very hesitant to voice their thoughts in front of an audience of 660 people. In cases where an individual fits both of those descriptions, that person has no way to report a bug or request a feature. Lou is quite right to be concerned about Council needing to look at multiple places to find bug reports. And I am not suggesting we create another such place. My recommendation is: * Council only looks at Sourceforge for bug reports and feature requests, nowhere else. * We create an e-mail address "bug-and-feautres at tei-c.org" or whatever, that is explicitly for people to send such things to the TEI. * A single individual (which LR thought of an air traffic controller, but that's not quite the right analogy) acts as a consolidator or channeler or aggregator or collector. This person receives the e-mail to the problem reporting address and, perhaps after clarifying details with the sender, puts it up on Sourceforge in the appropriate tracker. * EITHER this individual also culls TEI-L and perhaps the various SIG lists for bug reports OR no bug reports are taken from lists; rather, if a topic of conversation on the list seems to have uncovered a bug or the need for a new feature, someone says "Yeah, you should submit that to Sourceforge or send mail to bugs-and-features at tei-c.org" or perhaps "I think that's a bug, so I put it into the bug tracker at Sourceforge" or whatever. This individual would be appointed by Council, whether from among its members or not. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 14 15:49:00 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 20:49:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <18356.38929.924111.799239@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> <47B4581A.3020605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1203011838.7782.18.camel@odonned-eng06> <18356.38929.924111.799239@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47B4A93C.8000405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > * We create an e-mail address "bug-and-feautres at tei-c.org" or > whatever, that is explicitly for people to send such things to the > TEI. > > why not use tei-l for this purpose? From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Feb 14 15:55:12 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 15:55:12 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B4A93C.8000405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> <47B4581A.3020605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1203011838.7782.18.camel@odonned-eng06> <18356.38929.924111.799239@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47B4A93C.8000405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18356.43696.945957.737598@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > > * We create an e-mail address "bug-and-feautres at tei-c.org" or > > whatever, that is explicitly for people to send such things to the > > TEI. > why not use tei-l for this purpose? Because I think some people are quite timid about sending messages to TEI-L. Maybe there are few enough of them that it's not important, but I certainly think they exist. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 14 16:02:29 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:02:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <18356.43696.945957.737598@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> <47B4581A.3020605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1203011838.7782.18.camel@odonned-eng06> <18356.38929.924111.799239@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47B4A93C.8000405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18356.43696.945957.737598@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47B4AC65.2040403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: >>> * We create an e-mail address "bug-and-feautres at tei-c.org" or >>> whatever, that is explicitly for people to send such things to the >>> TEI. >>> > > >> why not use tei-l for this purpose? >> > > Because I think some people are quite timid about sending messages to > TEI-L. Maybe there are few enough of them that it's not important, > but I certainly think they exist. > And do we have any reason to believe that these cowardy custards you would be (a) brave enough to post to something called bugandfeaturerequests at tei-c.org (b) not brave enough to post directly on sourceforge? I think not. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 14 16:04:28 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:04:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B4AC65.2040403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> <47B4581A.3020605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1203011838.7782.18.camel@odonned-eng06> <18356.38929.924111.799239@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47B4A93C.8000405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18356.43696.945957.737598@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47B4AC65.2040403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47B4ACDC.5080108@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I would bet that the timid folks will simply mail a braver friend, and that brave person will mail TEI-L. I assume editors at tei-c.org will still have to go somewhere? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 14 16:05:40 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:05:40 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B4ACDC.5080108@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> <47B4581A.3020605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1203011838.7782.18.camel@odonned-eng06> <18356.38929.924111.799239@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47B4A93C.8000405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18356.43696.945957.737598@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47B4AC65.2040403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B4ACDC.5080108@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47B4AD24.6040001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I would bet that the timid folks will simply mail > a braver friend, and that brave person will mail TEI-L. > plausible > I assume editors at tei-c.org will still have to go somewhere? > Why should it not go direct to tei-council? From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 14 16:07:10 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2008 21:07:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B4AD24.6040001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> <47B4581A.3020605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1203011838.7782.18.camel@odonned-eng06> <18356.38929.924111.799239@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47B4A93C.8000405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18356.43696.945957.737598@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47B4AC65.2040403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B4ACDC.5080108@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B4AD24.6040001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47B4AD7E.6040708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou's Laptop wrote: >> I assume editors at tei-c.org will still have to go somewhere? >> > Why should it not go direct to tei-council? yeah, could do; though it makes replies problematic. why oh why doesnt Sourceforge support an email address for bug reports? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Fri Feb 15 03:20:01 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 09:20:01 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <C43FA3BB-7A49-475D-9B3A-981795EAFF47@loria.fr> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47B33C73.3040803@kcl.ac.uk> <1202929953.6834.36.camel@localhost> <C43FA3BB-7A49-475D-9B3A-981795EAFF47@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47B54B31.4000507@xs4all.nl> Laurent Romary schreef: > Now that I think of it, I think it could be helpful if Council > members' would suggest a few 10/15' talks that they could make. I can > gather these and send them to Malte+Susan. > Send Names+Titles on the list and I will gather these. I haven't been on the Council long enough to talk about specific Council topics, but if people would be interested in hearing something about e.g. using feature structures in literary annotation, I could do that. Peter From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Feb 15 04:18:32 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 10:18:32 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B54B31.4000507@xs4all.nl> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <47B33C73.3040803@kcl.ac.uk> <1202929953.6834.36.camel@localhost> <C43FA3BB-7A49-475D-9B3A-981795EAFF47@loria.fr> <47B54B31.4000507@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1203067112.47b558e84f842@www.loria.fr> This is exactly the kind of insights that we can bring to such a meeting. Thanks for the answer, Laurent Selon Peter Boot <pboot at xs4all.nl>: > Laurent Romary schreef: > > Now that I think of it, I think it could be helpful if Council > > members' would suggest a few 10/15' talks that they could make. I can > > gather these and send them to Malte+Susan. > > Send Names+Titles on the list and I will gather these. > > I haven't been on the Council long enough to talk about specific Council > topics, but if people would be interested in hearing something about > e.g. using feature structures in literary annotation, I could do that. > > Peter > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 15 23:02:36 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 23:02:36 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Japenese where it says English Message-ID: <18358.24668.490467.735301@emt.wwp.brown.edu> On my Debian system the files in /usr/share/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ have boilerplate text that I believe is in Japanese. It's certainly not English, and using CJK characters in any case. From syd at emt.wwp.brown.edu Sun Feb 17 13:06:24 2008 From: syd at emt.wwp.brown.edu (syd at emt.wwp.brown.edu) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:06:24 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] A strong body is an undivided body? Message-ID: <18360.30624.124729.648234@emt.wwp.brown.edu> I find myself wondering if there is a good reason that the org= and sample= attributes of att.divLike are not available on <body>. Certainly if a division can be a sample or be composite in organization, then so can a body. For that matter, although I'm not 100% sure why the <div> elements need to have the metrical attributes met=, real=, and rhyme=, if a <div> needs them, seems to me <body> does too. (After all, what if in my document there are no divisions, only the 1 poem?) <body> probably should not have part=, though, as it's hard to imagine what kind of structural overlap problem <body> can get into. Of course, all it takes is 1 example -- anybody got one? I'm interested in thoughts on the issue before I post a feature request to Sourceforge. From dsewell at virginia.edu Sun Feb 17 15:07:00 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 15:07:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Draft of 2008-02-07 conference call minutes In-Reply-To: <47B4AD24.6040001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> <47B4581A.3020605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1203011838.7782.18.camel@odonned-eng06> <18356.38929.924111.799239@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47B4A93C.8000405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18356.43696.945957.737598@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47B4AC65.2040403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B4ACDC.5080108@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B4AD24.6040001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802171502530.911@Sewell-iMac.local> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008, Lou's Laptop wrote: > Sebastian Rahtz wrote: [...] >> I assume editors at tei-c.org will still have to go somewhere? >> > Why should it not go direct to tei-council? It could, or the entry for "editors at tei-c.org" on the TEI website "Contact" page could simply be changed to the tei-council address. Either way, there are a couple of problematic side effects: I'd need to change to configuration settings for tei-council to allow (moderated) posting from non-members, and that means no doubt that more spam would be hitting my inbox. (For those of you who receive redirected email from addresses on http://www.tei-c.org/About/contact.xml, how much of a problem is spam?) David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 17 16:35:07 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:35:07 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] editors@tei-c.org In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802171502530.911@Sewell-iMac.local> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> <47B4581A.3020605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1203011838.7782.18.camel@odonned-eng06> <18356.38929.924111.799239@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47B4A93C.8000405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18356.43696.945957.737598@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47B4AC65.2040403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B4ACDC.5080108@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B4AD24.6040001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802171502530.911@Sewell-iMac.local> Message-ID: <47B8A88B.9030808@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > On Thu, 14 Feb 2008, Lou's Laptop wrote: > > >> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> > [...] > >>> I assume editors at tei-c.org will still have to go somewhere? >>> >>> >> Why should it not go direct to tei-council? >> > > It could, or the entry for "editors at tei-c.org" on the TEI website > "Contact" page could simply be changed to the tei-council address. > Either way, there are a couple of problematic side effects: > I'd need to change to configuration settings for tei-council to allow > (moderated) posting from non-members, and that means no doubt that > more spam would be hitting my inbox. (For those of you who receive > redirected email from addresses on http://www.tei-c.org/About/contact.xml, > how much of a problem is spam?) > I can confirm that the address editors at tei-c.org receives its fair quota of spam -- between 10 and 30 messages a day. I filter out anything in Russian or Japanese automatically, which accounts for most of it. So probably we don't want this address going directly to the tei-council list. I suppose filtering out the wheat from the chaff (and passing the former on to the council) is something the proposed editorial activity should include, therefore. From dsewell at virginia.edu Sun Feb 17 16:41:52 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 16:41:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Conference call action items? In-Reply-To: <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> References: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802131131200.276@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <1202921448.5974.9.camel@localhost> <55380AE4-0011-4109-889E-E209B40DA360@loria.fr> <47B41842.5000208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47B41CEB.2050404@kcl.ac.uk> <EF15B374-C2AA-4637-BAE2-8E78CBFC912E@loria.fr> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802171637040.911@Sewell-iMac.local> I have added corrections to the minutes of the 7 February call based on everyone's input, and have an XML version ready to put on www.tei-c.org. One thing that I did not do, mainly because I wasn't thinking about it during the call, was to identify any formal "action items" to highlight. I see that this is a customary practice in most past minutes of Council meetings. An HTML version of the minutes is here: http://www.betwix.net/tcm37.html (based on Sebastian's stylesheets; I don't have write access to tei-c.org). Let me know if there is anything that should be identified as an action item (or if you see any final corrections). David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Feb 19 03:59:54 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 03:59:54 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] corrigible error fixed, affects schema Message-ID: <18362.39562.668165.426676@emt.wwp.brown.edu> The datatype of the weights= attribute of <alt> was one or more occurrences of data.probability. Since there must be the same number of probabilities expressed in weights= as there are alternants expressed via targets=, which is 2 or more, this was an error. I have corrected the tagdoc so weights= now requires 2 or more. From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Feb 20 10:38:16 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 15:38:16 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] problem with Roma or the sanity checker In-Reply-To: <47BB1B48.7040500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47BB0E53.9040908@bbaw.de> <47BB1B48.7040500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47BC4968.4040409@kcl.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> Then I tried to generate the 'TEI Absolutely Bare' Schema. > TEI Bare is not intended as a useable schema, more > as a basis on which to build, so it is not surprising that > it has sanity errors. >> Then I included all elements of the TEI Absolutely Bare Schema modules >> and I get the warnings "teiCorpus is not reachable from root" and >> "handNote is not reachable from root". > Indeed. These statements are both unfortunately true > with just the basic modules loaded. This is because > a) the principle of model classes has not been extended to the > very root element of the TEI schema, so teiCorpus is Magic, > and b) <handNote> is wanted by two different modules, and > has therefore been put in the core - with the side effect that > without either module, it is orphaned. > > Bear in mind that that these are not formal errors, so > you don't _have_ to fix them. I think it may be useful to have a page accessible from the Roma interface that gives notes on this sort of errors that aren't really errors. Os is it there somewhere and I just don't know? Arianna -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 20 12:49:27 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 17:49:27 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] problem with Roma or the sanity checker In-Reply-To: <47BC4968.4040409@kcl.ac.uk> References: <47BB0E53.9040908@bbaw.de> <47BB1B48.7040500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47BC4968.4040409@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47BC6827.4070607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Arianna Ciula wrote: > > > I think it may be useful to have a page accessible from the Roma > interface that gives notes on this sort of errors that aren't really > errors. Os is it there somewhere and I just don't know? no, it does not exist yet. sadly. I wish it did... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pfs-listmail at umich.edu Fri Feb 22 12:25:42 2008 From: pfs-listmail at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 12:25:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Galway In-Reply-To: <47BC6827.4070607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47BB0E53.9040908@bbaw.de> <47BB1B48.7040500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47BC4968.4040409@kcl.ac.uk> <47BC6827.4070607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802221211450.14178@goldenaxe.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Novice questions. Am I right in thinking... (1) that we are still on for Galway 2-4 April? and that therefore I can safely begin making travel reservations? (2) that I should wait for word on local arrangements before booking lodging? (or should I go ahead and start ringing up b&b's?) For those with experience of Galway (the nearest I've been is Dingle...), I was thinking of (1) flying from Gatwick to Shannon via Ryanair and taking a (2-hour) bus from there; (2) taking time after the meeting to do some walking in Connemara. I've got the Harvey's Superwalker, a couple of 1:50000 OSI "Discovery" maps (37 and 44), decent waterproofs, good boots, and a well-worn Leki. (Anyone want to join me?) Does either of those sound wrong-headed? Other advice? What am I missing? :) pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From laurent.romary at loria.fr Sat Feb 23 16:00:01 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 22:00:01 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802221211450.14178@goldenaxe.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <47BB0E53.9040908@bbaw.de> <47BB1B48.7040500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47BC4968.4040409@kcl.ac.uk> <47BC6827.4070607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802221211450.14178@goldenaxe.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <1203800401.47c089518bdc7@www.loria.fr> Selon "Paul F. Schaffner" <pfs-listmail at umich.edu>: > Novice questions. Am I right in thinking... > > (1) that we are still on for Galway 2-4 April? and that therefore > I can safely begin making travel reservations? Yeap. > (2) that I should wait for word on local arrangements before > booking lodging? (or should I go ahead and start ringing > up b&b's?) Yeap. Malte booked a group of rooms for us. I will send a message requiring you all to produce your travel plans to finalize the bookings. For the rest of your message: I have to look at this... > > For those with experience of Galway (the nearest I've been is > Dingle...), I was thinking of > > (1) flying from Gatwick to Shannon via Ryanair and taking a > (2-hour) bus from there; > (2) taking time after the meeting to do some walking in > Connemara. I've got the Harvey's Superwalker, a > couple of 1:50000 OSI "Discovery" maps (37 and 44), > decent waterproofs, good boots, and a well-worn Leki. > (Anyone want to join me?) > > Does either of those sound wrong-headed? Other advice? > What am I missing? > > :) > > pfs > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ > 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 23 17:18:41 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2008 22:18:41 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway In-Reply-To: <1203800401.47c089518bdc7@www.loria.fr> References: <47BB0E53.9040908@bbaw.de> <47BB1B48.7040500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47BC4968.4040409@kcl.ac.uk> <47BC6827.4070607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802221211450.14178@goldenaxe.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <1203800401.47c089518bdc7@www.loria.fr> Message-ID: <47C09BC1.8060007@oucs.ox.ac.uk> My first attempt at finding a route that doesnt involve flying looks like this: Oxford d. 0907 Birmingham a. 1018 d. 1051 Crewe a. 1150 d. 1203 Chester a. 1227 d. 1235 Holyhead a. 1430 d. 1515 (ferry) Dun Laoghaire a. 1654 d. 1743 Dublin Connolly a. 1808 d. 1808 (tram) Dublin Heuston a.1903 d. 1915 Galway a. 2155 Total journey time 12:48, seven changes, a boat AND a tram. I may have to compromise on my principles. From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Feb 26 15:07:39 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 20:07:39 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] more details on Galway Message-ID: <47C4718B.9090808@kcl.ac.uk> Dear all, since Laurent is on holiday and with limited bandwidth, I am sending this message from Malte (it was a PDF, but don't think I can send that to the list). Note especially that we need to tell Malte if we are planning to stay at the hotel for more then the two expected nights. Arianna ======================== Dear all, We are very much looking forward to both: the TEI at galway symposium and the hosting of the Council meeting in early April. Please find below some brief information about your stay in Galway. Please do not hesitate to contact us if there is anything. Since I am on leave most of March, use the email address teiatgalway at nuigalway.ie for any questions or comments. This mailbox is accessed by my colleagues Sean Ryder and Marie Kennedy as well as by myself. See you soon in Galway! Best wishes, Malte -------- *Venue* The event will be held at the National University of Ireland, Galway (NUIG) on the west coast of Ireland. With its 72,000 inhabitants, Galway is one of the larger cities of Ireland, located at the Galway bay in the province of Connaught. You can expect a vivid city with typical Irish lifestyle but don't forget to bring your rain coat! Within NUIG, the Moore Institute for Research in the Humanities and Social Studies and especially the TEXTE programme (Transfer of Expertise in Technologies of Editing) will be your host. For the symposium and your meeting, our seminar room (203) will be available. Some links: ? Galway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galway ? NUIG: http://www.nuigalway.ie/ ? Moore Institute: http://mooreinstitute.ie/ ? TEXTE programme: http://mooreinstitute.ie/projects.php?project=15 *Getting here* Please have a look at http://www.nuigalway.ie/about. If you intend to use public transportation, I strongly recommend to buy an open return ticket for it is much cheaper than two single tickets. Arriving via Dublin or Shannon, Citylink is the best option. *Programme* ? Wednesday, 2 April 2008, 9-18h: TEI at galway symposium; Agenda will be distributed next week ? Thursday, 3 April 2008: your meeting ? On Thursday night, we would be happy to invite you for some nice dinner in town. ? Friday, 4 April 2008: your meeting (cont.) *Accommodation* We have made a pre-booking for all of you in the Harbour Hotel for the two nights from Wednesday to Friday. Please let us know as soon as possible if you need accommodation for other nights as well. The Harbour Hotel is (surprisingly) located at the Galway harbour, and from there it is only a five minutes walk into the centre and a 20 minutes walk to the college. The city centre offers a lot of options for going out for a pint or having dinner. The pedestrian zone around Shop Street is a good address. Many pubs have live music sessions every night for free. Some links: ? Harbour Hotel: http://www.harbour.ie/ ? City Map: http://www.galwaytourist.com/maps/city_map (hotel: D4, college: A1, city centre / Shop Street: C3) Contact Please use teiatgalway at nuigalway.ie for any needs. Until 7 March and from 31 March, you can also contact me directly via: Malte Rehbein Moore Institute National University of Ireland, Galway Mob.: +353 85 8144 685 Fax.: +353 91 49 5507 Email: malte.rehbein at nuigalway.ie -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From pfs-listmail at umich.edu Tue Feb 26 18:47:39 2008 From: pfs-listmail at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 18:47:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] more details on Galway In-Reply-To: <47C4718B.9090808@kcl.ac.uk> References: <47C4718B.9090808@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802261837480.14129@goldenaxe.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> On Tue, 26 Feb 2008, Arianna Ciula wrote: > Note especially that we need to tell Malte if we are planning to stay at > the hotel for more then the two expected nights. I do plan to stay longer (sorry). Having gone to the trouble to get to western Ireland, it feels a waste just to turn around and come back again. I have now booked the flights, but not yet the buses or lodgings, as follows. - Arr. Dublin Monday 31 March 14:45 (RyanAir FR115) CityLink coach to Galway City arriving 18:30 or 20:15 - Staying in Galway 5 nights: Monday 31 March through Fri 4 April Checking out on Saturday morning, 5 April. - Hoping to get hotel to store a suitcase or two till about noon on Tues 8 April (and walking about a bit in Connemara in the interval.) I hope this will not prove troublesome. I'd be glad to switch hotels or find my own if that is preferred. pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no Wed Feb 27 14:56:02 2008 From: tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no (Tone Merete Bruvik) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:56:02 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] more details on Galway In-Reply-To: <47C4718B.9090808@kcl.ac.uk> References: <47C4718B.9090808@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <165e2bfe61f83d960d48454c05b6521d@aksis.uib.no> Hello Malte, I will need two extra nights at the hotel. I will arrive in Galway late at night on April 1st, and leave on Saturday morning. My flight is to Dublin, and will take the City Link to get to Galway I guess. Best regards, Tone Merete Bruvik Aksis P? 26. feb. 2008 kl. 21.07 skrev Arianna Ciula: > Dear all, > > since Laurent is on holiday and with limited bandwidth, I am sending > this message from Malte (it was a PDF, but don't think I can send that > to the list). > > Note especially that we need to tell Malte if we are planning to stay > at > the hotel for more then the two expected nights. > > Arianna > > ======================== > > Dear all, > > We are very much looking forward to both: the TEI at galway symposium and > the hosting of > the Council meeting in early April. Please find below some brief > information about your > stay in Galway. > Please do not hesitate to contact us if there is anything. Since I am > on > leave most of > March, use the email address teiatgalway at nuigalway.ie for any questions > or comments. > This mailbox is accessed by my colleagues Sean Ryder and Marie Kennedy > as well as by > myself. > > See you soon in Galway! > > Best wishes, > Malte > -------- > > *Venue* > > The event will be held at the National University of Ireland, Galway > (NUIG) on the west > coast of Ireland. With its 72,000 inhabitants, Galway is one of the > larger cities of Ireland, > located at the Galway bay in the province of Connaught. You can expect > a > vivid city with > typical Irish lifestyle but don't forget to bring your rain coat! > Within NUIG, the Moore Institute for Research in the Humanities and > Social Studies and > especially the TEXTE programme (Transfer of Expertise in Technologies > of > Editing) will be > your host. For the symposium and your meeting, our seminar room (203) > will be available. > > Some links: > ? Galway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galway > ? NUIG: http://www.nuigalway.ie/ > ? Moore Institute: http://mooreinstitute.ie/ > ? TEXTE programme: http://mooreinstitute.ie/projects.php?project=15 > > *Getting here* > Please have a look at http://www.nuigalway.ie/about. > If you intend to use public transportation, I strongly recommend to buy > an open return > ticket for it is much cheaper than two single tickets. Arriving via > Dublin or Shannon, Citylink > is the best option. > > *Programme* > ? Wednesday, 2 April 2008, 9-18h: TEI at galway symposium; Agenda will be > distributed next week > ? Thursday, 3 April 2008: your meeting > ? On Thursday night, we would be happy to invite you for some nice > dinner in town. > ? Friday, 4 April 2008: your meeting (cont.) > > *Accommodation* > We have made a pre-booking for all of you in the Harbour Hotel for the > two nights from > Wednesday to Friday. Please let us know as soon as possible if you need > accommodation > for other nights as well. > The Harbour Hotel is (surprisingly) located at the Galway harbour, and > from there it is only > a five minutes walk into the centre and a 20 minutes walk to the > college. > The city centre offers a lot of options for going out for a pint or > having dinner. The > pedestrian zone around Shop Street is a good address. Many pubs have > live music > sessions every night for free. > > Some links: > ? Harbour Hotel: http://www.harbour.ie/ > ? City Map: http://www.galwaytourist.com/maps/city_map > (hotel: D4, college: A1, city centre / Shop Street: C3) > Contact > > Please use teiatgalway at nuigalway.ie for any needs. Until 7 March and > from 31 March, > you can also contact me directly via: > Malte Rehbein > Moore Institute > National University of Ireland, Galway > Mob.: +353 85 8144 685 > Fax.: +353 91 49 5507 > Email: malte.rehbein at nuigalway.ie > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > Tone Merete Bruvik Lyshovden 104 5148 Fyllingsdalen 55161123 From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Feb 27 20:29:57 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2008 20:29:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] more details on Galway In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802261837480.14129@goldenaxe.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <47C4718B.9090808@kcl.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802261837480.14129@goldenaxe.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802272028420.762@Sewell-iMac.local> Given a choice, is there an advantage to flying in to Shannon versus Dublin? -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From pfs-listmail at umich.edu Thu Feb 28 09:50:28 2008 From: pfs-listmail at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:50:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] more details on Galway In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802272028420.762@Sewell-iMac.local> References: <47C4718B.9090808@kcl.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802261837480.14129@goldenaxe.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802272028420.762@Sewell-iMac.local> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802280945110.17301@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> On Wed, 27 Feb 2008, David Sewell wrote: > Given a choice, is there an advantage to flying in to Shannon versus > Dublin? >From what I could judge, the advantages are: a shorter bus trip into Galway (assuming that one goes by bus); and a greater choice of bus times, if one is willing to consider the Bus Eireann services as well as CityLink. If you are settled on CityLink, then Dublin may be a better choice, because there are relatively few CityLink buses per day to Shannon, and you may face (say) a five hour delay between landing and boarding the coach. The Bus Eireann #51 service runs every hour or so. At least these were my conclusions after wrestling with timetables this week. In the end, I opted dubiously for Dublin, with generous time allowed between each connection. I think you'll be ok either way. --pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 28 10:22:41 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (lou burnard) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:22:41 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] more details on Galway In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802280945110.17301@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> References: <47C4718B.9090808@kcl.ac.uk> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802261837480.14129@goldenaxe.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802272028420.762@Sewell-iMac.local> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0802280945110.17301@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> Message-ID: <47C6D1C1.7010303@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I would imagine that Shannon is a smaller and quieter airport, and it's obviously much nearer to Galway. On the other hand, there's a regular(ish) train service between Dublin Heuston and Galway. Takes 2h45, departures 0710, 0910, 1110, 1435, 1650, 1750, 1915. Don't know how you got to DHT from Dublin airport tho. Tram, with any luck. Paul F. Schaffner wrote: > On Wed, 27 Feb 2008, David Sewell wrote: > > >> Given a choice, is there an advantage to flying in to Shannon versus >> Dublin? >> > > >From what I could judge, the advantages are: a shorter bus > trip into Galway (assuming that one goes by bus); and a greater > choice of bus times, if one is willing to consider the Bus Eireann > services as well as CityLink. If you are settled on CityLink, then > Dublin may be a better choice, because there are relatively few > CityLink buses per day to Shannon, and you may face (say) a five hour > delay between landing and boarding the coach. The Bus Eireann > #51 service runs every hour or so. At least these were my conclusions > after wrestling with timetables this week. In the end, I opted > dubiously for Dublin, with generous time allowed between each > connection. I think you'll be ok either way. --pfs > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ > 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 28 10:30:08 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (lou burnard) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:30:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: FW: more details on Galway] Message-ID: <47C6D380.20606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Our man in the far west writes further... (He doesn't mention it, because it's not yet official, but those mainland UK dwellers who would rather poke their eyeballs out with a picklefork than go anywhere near Luton will be pleased to hear the rumour I picked up on the web somewhere that FlyBE is introducing a direct flight from Birmingham to Galway next month.) -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Rehbein, Malte" <malte.rehbein at nuigalway.ie> Subject: FW: [tei-council] more details on Galway Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 15:25:02 -0000 Size: 4092 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080228/e9da0663/attachment.eml From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu Feb 28 11:40:57 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel BODARD) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:40:57 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI web page URL Message-ID: <20080228164057.17r7h1r7s4cswgsk@impmail.kcl.ac.uk> Someone on this list may know the answer to this question, and/or care about the implied inconsistency... See <http://horothesia.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-do-urls-mean-tei-corg.html> Cheers, G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 28 11:47:52 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 16:47:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI web page URL In-Reply-To: <20080228164057.17r7h1r7s4cswgsk@impmail.kcl.ac.uk> References: <20080228164057.17r7h1r7s4cswgsk@impmail.kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47C6E5B8.7070107@oucs.ox.ac.uk> By that argument, all the .php and .asp pages in the world are wrong too. It's actually quite common for the suffix to reflect the source, not the output. I do have some sympathy with Tom, but not a lot :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Feb 28 12:18:56 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 12:18:56 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TEI web page URL In-Reply-To: <47C6E5B8.7070107@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <20080228164057.17r7h1r7s4cswgsk@impmail.kcl.ac.uk> <47C6E5B8.7070107@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18374.60672.159906.316106@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Gawk! What tangled web we've woven. 1) The type of data stored in a file and its name are completely different things. Thus the idea of identifying the type of data stored in a file by part of its name (commonly called its "extension") is, well, bad. But it is what we do, almost ubiquitously[1]. 2) So given that the defacto file-system standard is to record the type of data stored in a file in the last bit of its name, I'm completely sympathetic with Tom's point of view. 3) HOWEVER, on the web it has been commonplace for years now to have in the URL the source file that you ask the server for, rather than the type of data that the server returns in the URL (some of that information is stored elsewhere in the HTTP header stuff). 4) SO, while I understand Tom's frustration, I don't think we're doing anything wrong, we're just an example of how the whole system is kinda broken. Notes ----- [1] Apple, in their original Mac OS, did it right. They separated the type of data stored in a file from its name; the type of data was stored as a completely separate bit of metadata. Although some might argue this way & that about the format of their metadata, it was the better way to go. But with the advent of their new Mac OS X, Apple did not take the high road, which would have been to continue to separate the type of file from the name; nor did they take the "can't beat 'em, join 'em" approach, and completely switch to the Unix name-extension convention. No, they now have an icky hybrid of both approaches. Sigh. From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Feb 28 22:43:19 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:43:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] more details on Galway In-Reply-To: <47C4718B.9090808@kcl.ac.uk> References: <47C4718B.9090808@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.1.00.0802282235480.690@Sewell-iMac.local> Sorry if I missed this information in a previous message, but do we know by what time on Friday 4 April our meeting will conclude? I've booked a Washington-Dublin nonstop flight on Aer Lingus at a pretty good price. If we will be finished by 1700 or so on Friday I'll probably return to Dublin that evening to have a full day to be a tourist there on Saturday. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 29 14:35:13 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 29 Feb 2008 14:35:13 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] <locus> and @target In-Reply-To: <47C82D83.6070809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <200802291552.m1TFgPAS010227@listserv.brown.edu> <47C82D83.6070809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18376.24177.978989.543301@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > I'd go so far as to say I agree with Syd here. @facs was introduced > to the TEI long after this definition for @target was last revised. > It's probably better to annoy the (probably small) number of people > currently using @target to point to facsimile pages than it is to > permanently confuse the (probably large) number of people wondering > how come one attribute can do two different jobs. Changing this is not the simple correction of a corrigible error, since it changes the semantics of an attribute and could potentially break some people's documents. Nonetheless, I think it is a very good idea, and should be done sooner rather than later, before the number of people using target= to point to page images grows. Here is a suggestion for the relevant section of locus.xml, with the non-English <desc> elements removed: --------- <attDef ident="target"> <desc>supplies a link to one or more transcriptions of the specified range of folios.</desc> <datatype maxOccurs="unbounded"> <rng:ref xmlns:rng="http://relaxng.org/ns/structure/1.0" name="data.pointer"/> </datatype> <exemplum> <egXML xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples"> <msItem n="1"> <locus facs="#f1r #f1v #f2r">ff. 1r-2r</locus> <author>Ben Jonson</author> <title>Ode to himself An Ode to him selfe. Com leaue the loathed stage And see his chariot triumph ore his wayne. Beal, Index 1450-1625, JnB 380

The target attribute may point to any element that contains or indicates a transcription of the locus being described. One common use is to point to the pb element that begins each transcribed page, as shown above.

--------- From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Mar 3 06:15:10 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 12:15:10 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] more details on Galway In-Reply-To: References: <47C4718B.9090808@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <86AAF881-4DAC-4BC6-B052-C812D7A92513@loria.fr> Dear all, I make the assumption that we can start rather early on Thursday so that 5PM on Friday is a reasonable maximum. I still have to work on the agenda and my own travel plans... Laurent (back from holidays) Le 29 f?vr. 08 ? 04:43, David Sewell a ?crit : > Sorry if I missed this information in a previous message, but do we > know > by what time on Friday 4 April our meeting will conclude? > > I've booked a Washington-Dublin nonstop flight on Aer Lingus at a > pretty > good price. If we will be finished by 1700 or so on Friday I'll > probably > return to Dublin that evening to have a full day to be a tourist there > on Saturday. > > David > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 4 10:14:51 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 15:14:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Stylesheet generation] Message-ID: <47CD676B.7090204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> not sure where to go with thoughtful stuff like this. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Stylesheet generation Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2008 22:49:43 +0800 From: Brett Zamir To: Sebastian Rahtz Hi again, Just wondering also if it might be possible to define the stylesheets to utilize and @rendition/, as well as @rend in a thorough manner which checked for CSS definitions within the above in the case of each element? Or perhaps, since XSL-FO seems like a superset of CSS for the most part, what about getting to accept type xs:ANY to allow inclusion of XSL-FO tags directly (to avoid such a usage breaking TEI conformance, if such a schema change would indeed be breaking conformance) which could in turn be converted to CSS? I think that one feature that might help one to allow more standard specifications would be to add an attribute to to allow for specification of pseudo-elements like :first, :before, :after , since merely adding the declaration of properties alone does not indicate in a standardized manner how such property declarations should be applied to the resulting element. (For example, to specify that should get a curly left quote and curly right quote; I know you have some mechanisms to do this, but it seems to require something deviating from standard CSS.) Seeking to implement the above in a complete manner would also I think ideally allow the specification in the case of XHTML of whether the CSS should be created inline or as a separate stylesheet. (I believe at least with XSLT 2.0 if not 1.0 you can create separate output documents from one stylesheet, though I haven't researched how to do so.) Brett -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 5 05:10:28 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2008 10:10:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] chapter proposal In-Reply-To: <47CE41FB.60905@yahoo.com> References: <47CE41FB.60905@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47CE7194.9040603@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Dear Brett This is an interesting proposal, to say the least. The TEI Council is the appropriate forum to take it forward in any shape, so I am copying this and your message to them. As it happens there is a meeting of the Council early next month, and although the agenda is already rather full, I think this could be added to it. It is very rare indeed for a chapter to get into the Guidelines without being chewed over by a workgroup of some sort, and then submitted to the Council for approval. The Council has in the past chartered workgroups to address specific areas which it felt needed attention in the Guidelines: I cannot predict whether it would want to do the same for this topic, or whether it might instead feel it should become a free standing document (not having read your draft closely I am not even yet sure what I think myself). If the Council does decide to charter such a group, it would probably ask you (and other people) to suggest other people who you think could usefully contribute to the work, set a timetable and a budget for completing the draft, etc. On the other hand, I should warn you that after the large effort in getting P5 to completion, I think the Council is hoping to devote more of its efforts to outreach and training activities than to fundamental changes or expansions in the Guidelines. But that need not stop this document becoming a useful adjunct to the TEI, if only as a recipe book or guide to good practice. best wishes, and thanks again Lou p.s. I hope you will be considering standing for election to the TEI Council this year... Brett Zamir wrote: > Hello all, > > I wanted to be so bold as to offer the following for your > consideration in adding as a chapter or section to the TEI > documentation. I'm not attached to this idea, so if you think it might > only be useful at the wiki (if that), I'm completely resigned to your > decision. I have not marked up the document fully, in part because > this is only a draft and I have no idea if you'd like to have > something like this! I also realize that this could benefit from a > wider discussion (if you even wish to include such a chapter) and that > my prose can certainly be improved upon (looking for an excuse yet to > turn the red pen back on me?). :) > > I have cc'd Sebastian as this overlaps his work in particular. I > realize that the portion that I did not write for below, but which I'm > offering for your consideration, would require quite a bit of effort > to flesh out, so as to be both comprehensive and readable for an > audience unfamiliar with XSL (i.e., the proposal to list default > formatting behavior within the guidelines while making clear these > were in no way required). > > Again, if this is something which you feel is too > implementation-specific for TEI to publish as part of its guidelines, > I'll understand, though I attempted to implicitly make the case for > the existence of such a chapter within the rationales of the chapter > itself. > > I've also proposed some stylesheet changes to Sebastian which I think > might offer some assistance for this work as well, though I recognize > such work may take a pretty good amount of time if you were amenable > to attempting it. > > A first draft of the proposed document follows... > > best wishes, > Brett > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > While TEI makes no claims about how a document is to be > rendered--except to the extent that it allows description of the > original formatting and to the extent that publishers wish to reflect > that formatting--it is a general expectation that the TEI documents a > project is creating can be rendered at some point in a more > human-readable manner. While the desired formatting should not prompt > one to violate the TEI Abstract model by altering the semantics of a > document in order to adjust output formatting, the process of creating > formatting output (or even well before doing so), may lead a project > to reconsider some aspects of its semantic markup, as well as the more > conventional means of adjusting a stylesheet, so the issues raised > here go beyond the work of a designer. This chapter will discuss > various issues related to formatting a TEI document. > > *Respecting the original formatting > * > In order to fully respect the original formatting of a document, it is > necessary to consider (and thoroughly use) the global @rendition > attribute and/or the @render attribute on elements to point > to elements and/or the global @rend attribute to provide > its own definition without referring elsewhere. > > While semantic hooks and reliance on the typical formatting of > specific tags for cases where @rend and @rendition are not needed to > override typical behaviors might be sufficient to create an output > document reflecting the formatting of the original document, if the > original rendering is important information to preserve, this can be > done more explicitly by ensuring that all elements are given a > element which uses its @render attribute to point to a > element which contains the styling details that can be > applied to all instances of the tag. In this way, there is no > ambiguity about how a tag is to be rendered. This is also recommended > practice when elements are provided. (see > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/HD.html#HD57 ). > > However, note that elements do not allow for the > specification of a default rendering behavior for element-attribute > combinations--only for specific elements regardless of any attributes > or attribute values. They also do not allow the specification of a > default behavior for an element based on its position (e.g., > within ), so as this point, it may be inevitable to heavily rely > on @rend and @rendition if one must thoroughly indicate this original > formatting, independent of a stylesheet. > > For maximum specificity in encoding formatting details, the content > supplied within and @rend ought to use a formal formatting > language. However, besides not specifying a particular formatting > language that ought to be used, at present TEI does not offer a > fail-safe means of translating @rend and content into a > stylesheet (even though this information could potentially be used to > create @style attribute content, or, by using XSLT 2.0, simultaneously > create a CSS stylesheet alongside the X/HTML output. > > While it might be sufficient in most cases, there is no formal means > at present to express that a particular style rule should target CSS > pseudo-elements (like :before, :after, :first), such as one might wish > to do in specifying the addition of distinct content at the beginning > or end of a tag (e.g., adding left and right curly quotes to a > element; this is nothing to speak of needing to target a specific > attribute, say xml:lang to determine which type of quotation marks to > add). And even where the output does faithfully reflect the original, > it should be fairly common to need to optimize the resulting CSS > stylesheet, since it would likely be fairly large with there being no > means besides to indicate a behavior to apply to > element-attribute combinations or elements in particular positions. > > > *Original vs. output rendering* > > One might find oneself tempted to force the rendition mechansims in > TEI (@rend or @rendition or 's @render with ) to > go beyond their intended use for describing the original > rendering of a document. However, it is important to keep in mind that > if one wishes to control how the formatting will be output, > independently of the original formatting (adding details of formatting > not expressed about the original with the TEI render mechanisms or > overriding these details), one must not subvert the semantics of a TEI > document (at the risk of introducing TEI non-conformance and > interoperability issues) for the sake of controlling formatting--that > should instead be handled by a stylesheet. > > This might necessitate a different stylesheet or, as is probable for > most cases, modifications to the default stylesheets provided by TEI, > if the parameter options (assuming XSL stylesheets are used) are > insufficient to express a project's output requirements. It is, for > example, possible to allow the stylesheets to recognize multiple > attributes, even at the same time. > > *Returning changes to the default stylesheets* > > The stylesheets from TEI are evolving with the TEI project, however, > so it may be possible that the TEI project might be open to certain > changes (whether optional or required) to its default stylesheets, if > the changes offered may be of interest to a wider audience and TEI has > the resources to implement the changes. Given that the code of these > stylesheets is open source, it may benefit both TEI and its users as > well as an individual project for stylesheet improvements (or other > TEI resources for that matter) to be returned back to the community, > as it precludes the individual project from needing to make > modifications each time an update occurs. > > With more standard (but not standardized) styling expectations (and > stylesheet), the more likely that TEI processing applications might be > used to render TEI in a familiar format (such as when obtained > directly off the web, etc.), even while allowing publishers' full > freedom to deviate from such common conventions if they wish. > > *Influence of formatting (or accessibility) concerns on markup* > > While one should not subvert the semantics of a TEI document in order > to control formatting, besides customizing a stylesheet alone, the > viewing of a formatted document might prompt a project to consider > changes to the original TEI documents, such as: > > 1) giving a more detailed encoding of the original rendering (as that > information can be used to produce output rendering, assuming again > that the original document being represented indeed possesses this > rendering), using , , @rendition, and @rend > 2) adding more semantic "hooks" whether this is the use of hitherto > unused elements or attributes such as @n or @type (potentially with > the adding of generic elements like ) which can provide more > semantic detail about certain text that can in turn be targeted by a > stylesheet to provide more granular control in output formatting. This > may also have the benefit of providing more semantic richness to the > document (ideally using the more specific elements already recommended > for this purpose). Such semantic 'hooks' can also be of the variety > that ensures that the output formatting includes sufficient > accessibility features such as to make available alternative text > along with any graphics or images that could not otherwise be > interpreted by a speech browser. > > *Semantic information and output formatting > * > Besides formatting concerns leading one to add additional semantic > distinctions into a TEI document, one may also wish to encode a > certain degree of semantic information (to the extent allowed in the > output formatting language) into one's formatting output and consider > the extent to which output formatting markup is separated from any > more generic output structural markup (e.g., creating CSS to hold > styles with XHTML used to present the structure or encoding structural > and formatting markup together). These are both discussed below. > > *Encoding semantic information within formatted output > * > While it may often be the case that TEI will be converted to a > formatted output in which semantic information is lost, certain output > formats allow some if not all semantic information to be retained in > some manner. For example, XHTML can use the approach of microformats > (http://microformats.org) to use the global and generic XHTML @class > attribute to contain information such as the original TEI tag name. > While it would likely be too cumbersome to originate documents in such > a format (assuming all TEI semantics could be encoded with such an > approach), it offers the advantage that one might, for example, use a > web browser to obtain a document already pre-rendered, yet use a > microformat processor within the browser (possibly available as a > browser extension) to search for semantic information. > > *Encoding formatting within structural and semantic output* > > It has become a generally recommended practice for even XHTML > documents on the web to separate their formatting content (as with > CSS) into a separate file from the structural content (of paragraphs, > generic divisions, etc.). This offers various advantages such as speed > in downloading (by browser caching for repeatedly used stylesheet > files or by those using speech browsers being able to avoid > downloading visually-oriented stylesheets), or flexibility in > subsequent style changes. While one might define an XSL stylesheet to > create specific XHTML @class attribute values which are associated > with those classes targeted in a predefined CSS stylesheet, XSLT 2.0 > might be employed to utilize information such as contained within > @rend or elements to specify the creation of a CSS > document while also simultaneously creating the XHTML output document. > See the sections on preserving original formatting. > > Despite the generally recommended practice of separating styles from > structure and semantic information, given the present absence of a > means of making queries which utilize style information contained in > separate files, it may be conceivable for some to wish to have their > formatting output mixed in with structural output (the @style > attribute might be harder to parse in a query than if specific XHTML > formatting structures were used--even though these may be deprecated > in later versions)--just as one might prefer to encode say italic > emphasis using rather than > use a more formal but correct syntax of since the former is easier to parse--so that queries can > take advantage of both styling information and/or semantic > information. For example, if one views a document and sees that italic > text is used for emphasis, one might wish to search for a certain > phrase contained within italic text, for example, because one recalled > the text occurring there, or because one identified a pattern > represented by italic text but where one did not know what the exact > name of the pattern was, and thus not knowing what specific tag one > must search for to find the desired text. > > > *Consideration of default transformation behavior > > *While, as mentioned earlier, there is no required mapping of TEI > elements and attributes to specific output document structures (e.g., > XHTML/CSS, LaTeX, etc.), the fact that TEI provides a default set of > stylesheets to work with (albeit a parameterized one) and that these > are presumably well-used [by the number of downloads????] indicates > that there are a general set of expectations about how most TEI > structures will appear when output. The effort required to create > one's own stylesheets from scratch for such a large vocabulary as TEI > provides, or even to significantly modify existing stylesheets (no > less each time as improvements and adjustments are made to the default > files), also makes the understanding of how documents will be > transformed an imperative for many projects. Thus, it becomes > necessary to understand how TEI might commonly be transformed (or > understood to be transformed), even beyond the extent to which the > stylesheets themselves are documented and express (mostly in technical > language) the templates used to transform TEI into a formatting language. > > The default stylesheets provided by TEI serve as a good basis for > discussion on how formatting can be performed and are documented here > for the sake of those who wish to know how each structure they might > use in a TEI document might be rendered by default. The stylesheets > nor this discussion should be taken as any kind of requirement to use > these stylesheets as a base, or even at all. > > *General categories of elements to consider in formatting (or not > formatting at all)* > > Before considering the usual rendering and default rendering options > for specific elements (along with any specific attributes), it is > worth considering some general issues pertaining to certain types of > elements. > > *Likelihood of printing out specific elements* > > Elements differ in the likelihood a project will wish to render them > in a formatted output document. They range from editorial information > which might never be printed out for common viewing, to elements which > will sometimes be printed out (such as a listing the original > text and a regularized or corrected form) to elements such as > paragraphs which almost certainly will be printed out. > > For the case of those which will always be printed out, one can make > their styling explicit by using elements with a @render > attribute pointing to a element with the styling details > (and optionally the code). One might optionally even indicate specific > elements which should not be displayed (though depending on the > stylesheet language, this might not strictly be necessary). > > Moreover, a stylesheet might wish to depend on element-specific or > global attributes (whether semantic or rendition-related) to target > elements with or without these attributes or with specific values to > display or not display them selectively. > > Elements which occur in the header, will generally not be printed out, > though for some project's purposes, display of this information (e.g., > bibliographic data) may be useful to include in the formatting output. > > While other elements that occur within the running text will generally > be printed out, it is important to understand that with TEI--which, as > cannot be emphasized enough, is not a formatting language--this will > not always be the case. If one has editorial information that should > not be printed out within the running text (or at least should not > appear alongside the running text), as a project might not wish the > encoder-added information to disrupt the flow of the text (e.g., of a > narrative) and for which it might even be considered irreverent by > some viewers (such as for scriptural works), it will be important to > be aware of all such tags that a project might not want printed out so > that the stylesheet (possibly in conjunction with special semantic TEI > markup if not markup indicating original rendering) does not display > those tags' content. > > Elements which are defined by the following macros are generally not > to be displayed: > > 1) macro.limitedContent > (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-macro.limitedContent.html > ): desc, fDescr, figDesc, fsDescr, meeting, rendition, tagUsage, witness > 2) macro.phraseSeq.limited > (http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-macro.phraseSeq.limited.html > ): activity, age, authority, channel, classCode, constitution, > creation. derivation, domain, factuality, funder, interaction, interp, > langKnown, language, locale, metSym, preparedness, principal, purpose, > resp, span, sponsor, valDesc > > Moreover, there are some elements such as those in model.noteLike > ( and ) which while they might occur in the outputted > document, might also in other cases or within some projects not always > be rendered if at all. model.global.meta with members such as alt, > altGrp, certainty, fLib, fs, fvLib, index, interp, interpGrp, join, > joinGrp, link, linkGrp, respons, span, spanGrp, and timeline as well > as elements containing the global @exclude attribute may or may not be > output when included within a document. > > Still others include items such as may be contained within : > abbr, am, corr, ex, expan, orig, reg, seg, sic, unclear .. A project > may need to consider whether to output these elements with both > choices being shown in some manner (even as a mere tooltip that is > exposed when certain text is hovered over) or whether to only show one > of the choices (such as that reflecting the original or some > regularization, correction, expansion, or abbreviation). > > Likewise with elements belonging to model.pPart.transcriptional: add, > app, corr, damage, del, orig, reg, restore, sic, supplied, unclear . > One may or may not wish to indicate text for example, or > choose how to format damaged sections in some particular manner. > > (any others????) > > Since there is no way of knowing whether some of the elements > mentioned above such as refer to text that should be printed > out or not, one must rely on other mechanisms to specify or glean this > information. One way would be to use attributes, such as @resp to > detect whether the note was the responsibility of a markup editor of > the document, or whether it was provided by an original annotator of > the document. However, as the detection of this might not always be > clear (especially if the markup annotator also served as the original > annotator), the user of other attributes such as @type, or where @type > is not available, possibly @n or even xml:id might be used. > > Note that despite its being listed above, an element such as > , while it might not normally be displayed immediately to a > visual browser, might still nevertheless be important (or even > required in some formatting languages or in use with projects needing > by law to adhere to accessibility regulations) for the sake of being > accessible to those with visual disabilities who might depend on > speech browsers or tooltips to be able to get a sense of what a > particular graphic, photograph, etc. was displaying. It is certainly > good practice to follow such an encoding, both within TEI documents > and in the formatted output, where available. > > *Items needing replication* > > Some elements or elements with certain attributes may need special > consideration for output such as @copyOf or , as these might > indicate that certain formatting output might need to be created such > as might (as with other cases described earlier) not be evident by > simply stripping the markup out of the document. > > *Text attributes > * > Most attributes are used with coded values, as they are not mean to > represent human language or to be displayed. Text attributes represent > the exception to this, though it is commonly preferred for an XML > language to represent these attributes as elements so that further > nested subelements representing markup at the phrasal level, etc. can > be added within as needed. > > Text attributes have generally been removed from TEI, and some of the > ones that remain one might not wish to output in a formatted version > anyways, but if one wishes to include, for example, @reason in one's > output, one will be unable to add styling which depends on child > elements for more specific formatting since the information is > expressed within an attribute (but one can style differently depending > on the element's @xml:lang, as that does apply for text attributes, as > well as any other attributes on the element). Likewise for the > dictionary attributes, @expand, @norm, @split, @value, and @orig which > represent the remaining text attributes????. > > ((((Syd prepared a list of potential text attributes to review to see > if they were still text attributes--it'd be nice to be able to give > such an exhaustive list here.)))) > > > I think the element-specific details might be logically incorporated > as documentation elements within XSL that could be extracted for > automatic inclusion within the TEI reference pages, making clear that > the formatting discussed is only that of the default behavior used in > TEI-provided stylesheets (though also discussing the range of options > that the stylesheet makes available through parameters). I really > think giving awareness of these formatting issues in the context of > considering these elements would be more helpful than waiting for > people to discover them separately in the stylesheets. > > > *Specific formatting for specific elements (and any attributes) > > *(to be displayed on reference pages?)* > * > *Specific formatting for specific categories of formatting (images, etc.) > * > (to be compiled after reference pages have their information fleshed out) From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Mar 6 02:22:22 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 08:22:22 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway workshop 2 April 2008 - contributions Message-ID: <1E877BC3-F616-4625-B2BB-5CC4C83B4098@loria.fr> Dear all, I received the draft program below from Malte Rehbein and would like your quick feedback about who could make the corresponding introductory or more advanced presentation on the current status of the TEI guidelines. The presentation should be short (15') and our colleagues in Galway have identified the following topics: Two introductory talks: * NN, "TEI: What it is and Where it's Been" => global introduction to the scope and content of the TEI; I guess Lou could have something ready * NN, "How to start with TEI" => I could do a Roma tour Three more advanced presentation on the following topics: * NN, "The TEI P5 milestone" => main features brought by P5 * NN, "Linking the transcription to the digitised manuscript" * NN, "Introducing overlapping structures" Could I have some volunteers on these? Best wishes, Laurent 9:00 Registration, coffee 09:30 Welcome (Nicholas Canny?) 09:35 Keynote speech Susan Schreibman (Dublin), Director of the Digital Humanities Observatory (DHO) 10:15 Session "TEI based editions" (3 papers, each 20 minutes and 10 minutes discussion) Chair: Arianna Ciula (London) * James Cummings (Oxford), "The Godwin project" * Franz Fischer (K?ln), "The pluralistic approach - William of Auxerre's treatise on liturgy" * Elena Pierazzo (London), "Editorial teamwork in a digital environment: the edition of the correspondence of Giacomo Puccini" 11:45 Coffee break 12:00 Workshop "Getting started with the TEI" (2 presentations by Council members, each 15 minutes) * NN, "TEI: What it is and Where it's Been" * NN, "How to start with TEI" 12:30 Session "Thoughts on TEI" (2 papers, each 20 minutes and 10 minutes discussion) Chair: Elena Pierazzo (London) * Paul Caton (Galway), "TEI projects and Common Knowledge" * Federico Meschini (Leicester), "TEI and Scholarly Editions" * Poster introduction: John Walsh (Indiana), "Document-Centric Framework for Navigating Texts Online" 13:30 Lunch break 14:15 Workshop "Going on with the TEI" (3 presentations by Council members, each 15 minutes) * NN, "The TEI P5 milestone" * NN, "Linking the transcription to the digitised manuscript"(?) * NN, "Introducing overlapping structures" 15:00 Session "Irish TEI projects" (3 papers, each 20 minutes and 10 minutes discussion) Chair: NN * Padraic Moran (Cambridge), "Digital methodologies for early Irish glossaries" * Justin Tonra (Galway), "Encoding Lalla Rookh: The Thomas Moore Hypermedia Archive" * NN 16:30 Coffee break 16:45 Concluding Round Table discussion (possible topics: "Promoting the TEI in Ireland", "A TEI community for Ireland") Moderation: Sean Ryder (Galway) 17:30 Informal wine reception From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Mar 6 09:26:06 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 15:26:06 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: TEI@galway symposium 2 Apr 2008 References: Message-ID: Dear all, This complements my message from this morning. Please come back to me with proposals quickly (or I will have to find volunteers myself...). Cheers, Laurent D?but du message r?exp?di? : > De : Malte Rehbein > Date : 6 mars 2008 12:42:34 HNEC > ? : TEI-L at listserv.brown.edu > Objet : TEI at galway symposium 2 Apr 2008 > R?pondre ? : Malte Rehbein > > Dear all, > > Please find here (http://mooreinstitute.ie/news.php?newsItem=8) the > invitation to the TEI Symposium held in Galway, Ireland, 2 April > 2008. You > are all very welcome to join! > > Kind regards, > Malte > > --- > Malte Rehbein M.A. > Marie Curie Research Fellow > > Moore Institute > National University of Ireland, Galway > Mob.: +353 85 8144 685 > Fax.: +353 91 49 5507 > Email: malte.rehbein at nuigalway.ie > > > -------------------------- > TEI at galway > Symposium on Text Encoding in the Humanities > National University of Ireland, Galway > 2 April 2008 > > The Text Encoding Initiative (TEI) is a consortium which collectively > develops and maintains the standard for the representation of texts in > digital form used by various disciplines within the Humanities. The > Moore > Institute for Research in the Humanities and Social Studies at NUI > Galway is > hosting with support of the TEXTE programme this year's annual > meeting of > the TEI Council. This meeting will be accompanied by a one-day > symposium > allowing researchers to present and discuss TEI-related topics and > projects. > It is designed to promote communication among scholars and the TEI > Council > and to strengthen the TEI community by bringing together experts > from the > various initiatives and projects. > > The symposium is open to everyone. Presentations cover current > projects with > a focus on scholarly editions as well as thoughts on text encoding and > provision of digital resources. Two workshops aim at giving a general > introduction into the TEI and at discussing selected topics. > > Venue > > The event will be held at the National University of Ireland, > Galway (NUIG), > Moore Institute, Seminar Room 203. > > Fee / Registration / Lunch > > The symposium is free of charge but registration is required. > Please do so > by sending an email with your name and affiliation to > teiatgalway at nuigalway.ie by 25 March 2008. > > Lunch is provided. > > Organisation > > Malte Rehbein / Sean Ryder > Moore Institute > National University of Ireland, Galway > > Contact > > Please send any inquiries regarding the symposium to > teiatgalway at nuigalway.ie. > > Links > > Getting here: http://www.nuigalway.ie/about > For up-to-date information about the Symposium, see: > http://mooreinstitute.ie/news.php?newsItem=8 > Website of the Text Encoding Initiative: http://www.tei-c.org > Website of the TEXTE programme: http://mooreinstitute.ie/ > projects.php?project=15 > > Agenda > > 09:00 Registration, coffee > > 09:30 Welcome > > 09:35 Keynote speech > > Susan Schreibman (Director of the Digital Humanities Observatory, > Dublin) > > 10:15 Session ?TEI based editions? > > * James Cummings (Oxford), ?The Godwin project? > * Franz Fischer (K?ln), ?The pluralistic approach - William of > Auxerre's > treatise on liturgy? > * Elena Pierazzo (London), ?Editorial teamwork in a digital > environment: the > edition of the correspondence of Giacomo Puccini? > > 11:45 Coffee break > > 12:00 Workshop ?Getting started with the TEI? > > Talks by TEI Council members > > 12:30 Session ?Thoughts on TEI? > > * Paul Caton (Galway), ?TEI projects and Common Knowledge? > * Federico Meschini (Leicester), ?TEI and Scholarly Editions? > * John Walsh (Indiana), ?Document-Centric Framework for Navigating > Texts Online? > > 13:30 Lunch break > > 14:15 Workshop ?Going on with the TEI? > > Talks by TEI Council members > > 15:00 Session ?Irish TEI projects? > > * Padraic Moran (Cambridge), ?Digital methodologies for early Irish > glossaries? > * Justin Tonra (Galway), ?Encoding Lalla Rookh: The Thomas Moore > Hypermedia > Archive? > * Beatrix F?rber, Peter Flynn (Cork), "Encoding for life, the > universe, and > everything: some experiences of the CELT project with the TEI" > > 16:30 Coffee break > > 16:45 Concluding Round Table discussion > > 17:30 Informal wine reception From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 6 10:01:26 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (lou burnard) Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2008 15:01:26 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway workshop 2 April 2008 - contributions In-Reply-To: <1E877BC3-F616-4625-B2BB-5CC4C83B4098@loria.fr> References: <1E877BC3-F616-4625-B2BB-5CC4C83B4098@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47D00746.6050904@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Dear all, > I received the draft program below from Malte Rehbein and would like > your quick feedback about who could make the corresponding > introductory or more advanced presentation on the current status of > the TEI guidelines. The presentation should be short (15') and our > colleagues in Galway have identified the following topics: > Two introductory talks: > * NN, "TEI: What it is and Where it's Been" => global introduction to > the scope and content of the TEI; I guess Lou could have something ready > sure do > * NN, "How to start with TEI" => I could do a Roma tour > Three more advanced presentation on the following topics: > * NN, "The TEI P5 milestone" => main features brought by P5 > i can happily do this one too if you like if no-one else wants to -- but I expect there will be lots of volunteers! > * NN, "Linking the transcription to the digitised manuscript" > * NN, "Introducing overlapping structures" > > Could I have some volunteers on these? > Best wishes, > Aside from this, should we prepare an agenda for the main council meeting? From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Mar 6 10:04:43 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 16:04:43 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway workshop 2 April 2008 - contributions In-Reply-To: <47D00746.6050904@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <1E877BC3-F616-4625-B2BB-5CC4C83B4098@loria.fr> <47D00746.6050904@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Volunteers: still missing a few :-( Agenda: I have just started to work on it according to our last phone call. Please everyone send me agenda items you would want to have me not forget (I have had a cold since three days and my brain is still rather slow...) Laurent Le 6 mars 08 ? 16:01, lou burnard a ?crit : > Laurent Romary wrote: >> Dear all, >> I received the draft program below from Malte Rehbein and would >> like your quick feedback about who could make the corresponding >> introductory or more advanced presentation on the current status >> of the TEI guidelines. The presentation should be short (15') and >> our colleagues in Galway have identified the following topics: >> Two introductory talks: >> * NN, "TEI: What it is and Where it's Been" => global introduction >> to the scope and content of the TEI; I guess Lou could have >> something ready >> > sure do > >> * NN, "How to start with TEI" => I could do a Roma tour >> Three more advanced presentation on the following topics: >> * NN, "The TEI P5 milestone" => main features brought by P5 >> > i can happily do this one too if you like if no-one else wants to > -- but I expect there will be lots of volunteers! >> * NN, "Linking the transcription to the digitised manuscript" >> * NN, "Introducing overlapping structures" >> >> Could I have some volunteers on these? >> Best wishes, >> > Aside from this, should we prepare an agenda for the main council > meeting? > From pboot at xs4all.nl Thu Mar 6 10:31:05 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 16:31:05 +0100 (CET) Subject: [tei-council] Galway workshop 2 April 2008 - contributions Message-ID: <17485.194.171.119.28.1204817465.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > Volunteers: still missing a few :-( >>> * NN, "Linking the transcription to the digitised manuscript" I could do this Peter From tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no Tue Mar 11 07:01:20 2008 From: tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no (Tone Merete Bruvik) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:01:20 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway workshop 2 April 2008 - contributions In-Reply-To: References: <1E877BC3-F616-4625-B2BB-5CC4C83B4098@loria.fr> <47D00746.6050904@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <6e9047561301c40037124f6ffea8b75d@aksis.uib.no> I guess I could say a few words on overlapping structures. Tone Merete Bruvik P? 6. mar. 2008 kl. 16.04 skrev Laurent Romary: > Volunteers: still missing a few :-( > Agenda: I have just started to work on it according to our last phone > call. > Please everyone send me agenda items you would want to have me not > forget (I have had a cold since three days and my brain is still > rather slow...) > Laurent > > > Le 6 mars 08 ? 16:01, lou burnard a ?crit : > >> Laurent Romary wrote: >>> Dear all, >>> I received the draft program below from Malte Rehbein and would >>> like your quick feedback about who could make the corresponding >>> introductory or more advanced presentation on the current status >>> of the TEI guidelines. The presentation should be short (15') and >>> our colleagues in Galway have identified the following topics: >>> Two introductory talks: >>> * NN, "TEI: What it is and Where it's Been" => global introduction >>> to the scope and content of the TEI; I guess Lou could have >>> something ready >>> >> sure do >> >>> * NN, "How to start with TEI" => I could do a Roma tour >>> Three more advanced presentation on the following topics: >>> * NN, "The TEI P5 milestone" => main features brought by P5 >>> >> i can happily do this one too if you like if no-one else wants to >> -- but I expect there will be lots of volunteers! >>> * NN, "Linking the transcription to the digitised manuscript" >>> * NN, "Introducing overlapping structures" >>> >>> Could I have some volunteers on these? >>> Best wishes, >>> >> Aside from this, should we prepare an agenda for the main council >> meeting? >> > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > Tone Merete Bruvik Lyshovden 104 5148 Fyllingsdalen 55161123 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Mar 11 07:10:50 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:10:50 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway workshop 2 April 2008 - contributions In-Reply-To: <6e9047561301c40037124f6ffea8b75d@aksis.uib.no> References: <1E877BC3-F616-4625-B2BB-5CC4C83B4098@loria.fr> <47D00746.6050904@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <6e9047561301c40037124f6ffea8b75d@aksis.uib.no> Message-ID: <6FF82E1D-EF5E-4750-86EB-92175127ED5D@loria.fr> Super! The program is closed now. Laurent Le 11 mars 08 ? 12:01, Tone Merete Bruvik a ?crit : > I guess I could say a few words on overlapping structures. > > Tone Merete Bruvik > > > P? 6. mar. 2008 kl. 16.04 skrev Laurent Romary: > >> Volunteers: still missing a few :-( >> Agenda: I have just started to work on it according to our last phone >> call. >> Please everyone send me agenda items you would want to have me not >> forget (I have had a cold since three days and my brain is still >> rather slow...) >> Laurent >> >> >> Le 6 mars 08 ? 16:01, lou burnard a ?crit : >> >>> Laurent Romary wrote: >>>> Dear all, >>>> I received the draft program below from Malte Rehbein and would >>>> like your quick feedback about who could make the corresponding >>>> introductory or more advanced presentation on the current status >>>> of the TEI guidelines. The presentation should be short (15') and >>>> our colleagues in Galway have identified the following topics: >>>> Two introductory talks: >>>> * NN, "TEI: What it is and Where it's Been" => global introduction >>>> to the scope and content of the TEI; I guess Lou could have >>>> something ready >>>> >>> sure do >>> >>>> * NN, "How to start with TEI" => I could do a Roma tour >>>> Three more advanced presentation on the following topics: >>>> * NN, "The TEI P5 milestone" => main features brought by P5 >>>> >>> i can happily do this one too if you like if no-one else wants to >>> -- but I expect there will be lots of volunteers! >>>> * NN, "Linking the transcription to the digitised manuscript" >>>> * NN, "Introducing overlapping structures" >>>> >>>> Could I have some volunteers on these? >>>> Best wishes, >>>> >>> Aside from this, should we prepare an agenda for the main council >>> meeting? >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > Tone Merete Bruvik > > Lyshovden 104 > 5148 Fyllingsdalen > 55161123 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 11 08:36:45 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:36:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway: recommendations. Message-ID: <47D67CDD.5010806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Hi all, I happen to know two people fairly familiar with Galway. One, who coincidentally is part of the project I'll be talking about when there, is a Galway native, the other teaches falconry at a manor house not far away from there most summers. When they found I was going to Galway both (unasked) gave me recommendations of pubs with good traditional music. Some of their suggestions overlapped: The Crane Bar Taafe's Bar, Shop Street "Another one on Shop Street called Teach Ceol or Ceoil or Something" and also "There's also a lovely bakery on shop street, but I can't remember the name of it. It's on the left side heading toward the harbour" Both also recommended trips to Connemara and/or the Arann Islands (esp. Inis Mor). I pass those recommendations on in case they are useful for anyone. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Mar 11 14:47:11 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 12:47:11 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Galway: recommendations. In-Reply-To: <47D67CDD.5010806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47D67CDD.5010806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1205261231.15941.29.camel@odonned-eng06> Connemara is great (as are the islands). But a lot will be closed at this point of the year. Even the pubs in the smaller villages. On Tue, 2008-03-11 at 12:36 +0000, James Cummings wrote: > Hi all, > > I happen to know two people fairly familiar with Galway. One, who > coincidentally is part of the project I'll be talking about when there, is > a Galway native, the other teaches falconry at a manor house not far away > from there most summers. When they found I was going to Galway both > (unasked) gave me recommendations of pubs with good traditional music. > Some of their suggestions overlapped: > The Crane Bar > Taafe's Bar, Shop Street > "Another one on Shop Street called Teach Ceol or Ceoil or Something" > > and also > > "There's also a lovely bakery on shop street, but I can't remember the name > of it. It's on the left side heading toward the harbour" > > Both also recommended trips to Connemara and/or the Arann Islands (esp. > Inis Mor). > > I pass those recommendations on in case they are useful for anyone. > > -James -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From pfs-listmail at umich.edu Tue Mar 11 16:10:55 2008 From: pfs-listmail at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 16:10:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway: recommendations. In-Reply-To: <1205261231.15941.29.camel@odonned-eng06> References: <47D67CDD.5010806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1205261231.15941.29.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Mar 2008, Dan O'Donnell wrote: > Connemara is great (as are the islands). But a lot will be closed at > this point of the year. Even the pubs in the smaller villages. Point taken. But the buses do run, albeit on their winter schedule; I found a B&B near Maam Bridge willing to take me on Saturday (and directed me to the village pub for directions), and another in Leenane on Sunday and Monday; and I assume that the sea, the Maumturks, and the Twelve Bens/Pins are still open, though the path of the Western Way may be a bit mucky. Aside from a shop or two for food and water, what else does one need? The charts I've looked at suggest that April is actually one of the drier months, on average (though that's not saying much), and that there should be adequate time between sunup and sundown (I hope) to walk the 20 miles from Maam to Leenane. If the truth is otherwise, best I learn it now! pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 11 17:23:06 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2008 21:23:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway: recommendations. In-Reply-To: References: <47D67CDD.5010806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1205261231.15941.29.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <47D6F83A.6070903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Paul F. Schaffner wrote: > Point taken. But the buses do run, albeit on their winter schedule; > I found a B&B near Maam Bridge willing to take me on Saturday > (and directed me to the village pub for directions), and > another in Leenane on Sunday and Monday; and I assume that the > sea, the Maumturks, and the Twelve Bens/Pins are still open, though > the path of the Western Way may be a bit mucky. Aside from a shop > or two for food and water, what else does one need? The charts > I've looked at suggest that April is actually one of the drier > months, on average (though that's not saying much), and that > there should be adequate time between sunup and sundown (I hope) > to walk the 20 miles from Maam to Leenane. If the truth is > otherwise, best I learn it now! If I had the time I'd love to join Paul on his hike. Instead I'm going to visit some of the same locations in comfort and style on the 10am Saturday departure of a bus tour to Connemara: http://www.healytours.ie/tour_connemara.html I know these things can be a bit silly compared to doing it yourself, but I thought being pressed for time, possibility of rain, etc. that it just seemed a heck of a lot easier. One of you may already be joining me on it, but others welcome as well. -James From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Mar 16 05:00:34 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:00:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] chapter proposal (fwd) Message-ID: <20080316090034.9E833EB04E@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080316/4bbaaf17/attachment.pl From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Mar 24 14:43:34 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:43:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting updates? Message-ID: As we're only about a week away from our meeting, I was wondering whether there are updates on our agenda and the procedure for hotel registration. I see that a schedule for the 2 April symposium is now online: http://www.nuigalway.ie/mooreinstitute/news.php?newsItem=8 I will be attending the entire symposium on Wednesday and although I'm not on the program for anything, I'd be happy to help out as a commenter, note-taker, or whatever. David (Incidentally, I take personal responsibility for the fact that the dollar is finally rising against the euro a little bit: I decided last week to buy some euros ahead of time just in case the dollar kept slipping, and of course that turned out to be the day that the euro was at its record high.) -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From pfs-listmail at umich.edu Mon Mar 24 14:48:38 2008 From: pfs-listmail at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting updates? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Mar 2008, David Sewell wrote: > (Incidentally, I take personal responsibility for the fact that the > dollar is finally rising against the euro a little bit: I decided last > week to buy some euros ahead of time just in case the dollar kept > slipping, and of course that turned out to be the day that the euro was > at its record high.) Not sole responsibility. I did the same. On the same day, I believe. pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Mar 25 00:16:07 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 22:16:07 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting updates? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1206418567.6195.0.camel@localhost> Finally a benefit to leaving all arrangements to the last minute! Aahwoogaah! -dan On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 14:48 -0400, Paul F. Schaffner wrote: > On Mon, 24 Mar 2008, David Sewell wrote: > > > (Incidentally, I take personal responsibility for the fact that the > > dollar is finally rising against the euro a little bit: I decided last > > week to buy some euros ahead of time just in case the dollar kept > > slipping, and of course that turned out to be the day that the euro was > > at its record high.) > > Not sole responsibility. I did the same. On the same day, > I believe. > > pfs > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ > 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 25 09:08:40 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 13:08:40 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda Message-ID: <47E8F958.1040909@oucs.ox.ac.uk> In preparation for next week's meeting, I've now reviewed all postings to tei-l and to tei-council since January in search of specific feature requests for the next release of TEI P5, adding brief entries to the sourceforge list of such items as I go. I hope I haven't left anything out but it would be jolly helpful if someone else could check. I hope all council members can also review these topics: there are only 18 of them so far. Go to http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=106328 or select Tracker from the project page at http://sf.net/projects/tei/ I will also (I hope) post a summary here as soon as possible. You don't need a sourceforge login to read or even post new feature requests by the way, though getting one is pretty straightforward (and obviously helps those of us trying to make sense of the comments) From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Mar 26 06:49:13 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 11:49:13 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda Message-ID: Dear all, Here below you will find a possible agenda for our Galway meeting. We should spend quite a great deal of our meeting to technical issue (see also Lou's message about SF feature requests). Could we have this agenda put on the TEI web site together with the relevant pointers when available? Best wishes, Laurent Tour de table of council members Adoption of agenda Review of minutes from last meeting (Conf. Call, 7 Feb.) Council work and organization Editorial support Role of SIGs and working groups (cf. SS, DO, LR) Technical discussions Oustanding SF feature requests, summary document by Lou See ://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=106328 Shortcomings of @precision (Lou: should it be put on SF feature request) Wrap-up: dealing with feature requests New chapter proposal (Brett) TEI-METS (John Wlash) SIG - correspondance Tools Open Office and MSWord (SR) Rewamping TEI to xHTML and PDF stylesheets Projects-dissemination Examples (internationalisation, cross referencing, etc.) (JC) ISO (SR) Tite, update DC 2008 (LR) From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Mar 26 09:49:09 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:49:09 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting updates? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0476F522-961E-4B62-B279-33A3249D6085@loria.fr> Hi David, Hotel registration is so far fully set by Malte Rehbein who booked rooms for all of us by default for 2 nights (Wed + Thu), knowing that some of us have asked him to extend (e.g. I stay overnight in Galway on Friday night). I attach below the full text of the pdf we received from him. And yes, your active presence is welcome at the symposium: that will warm us up before the actual council debates. See you soon in Galway;, Laurent Dear all, We are very much looking forward to both: the TEI at galway symposium and the hosting of the Council meeting in early April. Please find below some brief information about your stay in Galway. Please do not hesitate to contact us if there is anything. Since I am on leave most of March, use the email address teiatgalway at nuigalway.ie for any questions or comments. This mailbox is accessed by my colleagues Sean Ryder and Marie Kennedy as well as by myself. See you soon in Galway! Best wishes, Malte -------- Venue The event will be held at the National University of Ireland, Galway (NUIG) on the west coast of Ireland. With its 72,000 inhabitants, Galway is one of the larger cities of Ireland, located at the Galway bay in the province of Connaught. You can expect a vivid city with typical Irish lifestyle but don't forget to bring your rain coat! Within NUIG, the Moore Institute for Research in the Humanities and Social Studies and especially the TEXTE programme (Transfer of Expertise in Technologies of Editing) will be your host. For the symposium and your meeting, our seminar room (203) will be available. Some links: ? Galway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galway ? NUIG: http://www.nuigalway.ie/ ? Moore Institute: http://mooreinstitute.ie/ ? TEXTE programme: http://mooreinstitute.ie/projects.php?project=15 Getting here Please have a look at http://www.nuigalway.ie/about. If you intend to use public transportation, I strongly recommend to buy an open return ticket for it is much cheaper than two single tickets. Arriving via Dublin or Shannon, Citylink is the best option. Programme ? Wednesday, 2 April 2008, 9-18h: TEI at galway symposium; Agenda will be distributed next week ? Thursday, 3 April 2008: your meeting ? On Thursday night, we would be happy to invite you for some nice dinner in town. ? Friday, 4 April 2008: your meeting (cont.) Accommodation We have made a pre-booking for all of you in the Harbour Hotel for the two nights from Wednesday to Friday. Please let us know as soon as possible if you need accommodation for other nights as well. The Harbour Hotel is (surprisingly) located at the Galway harbour, and from there it is only a five minutes walk into the centre and a 20 minutes walk to the college. The city centre offers a lot of options for going out for a pint or having dinner. The pedestrian zone around Shop Street is a good address. Many pubs have live music sessions every night for free. Some links: ? Harbour Hotel: http://www.harbour.ie/ ? City Map: http://www.galwaytourist.com/maps/city_map (hotel: D4, college: A1, city centre / Shop Street: C3) Contact Please use teiatgalway at nuigalway.ie for any needs. Until 7 March and from 31 March, you can also contact me directly via: Malte Rehbein Moore Institute National University of Ireland, Galway Mob.: +353 85 8144 685 Fax.: +353 91 49 5507 Email: malte.rehbein at nuigalway.ie Le 24 mars 08 ? 19:43, David Sewell a ?crit : > As we're only about a week away from our meeting, I was wondering > whether there are updates on our agenda and the procedure for hotel > registration. > > I see that a schedule for the 2 April symposium is now online: > > http://www.nuigalway.ie/mooreinstitute/news.php?newsItem=8 > > I will be attending the entire symposium on Wednesday and although I'm > not on the program for anything, I'd be happy to help out as a > commenter, note-taker, or whatever. > > David > > (Incidentally, I take personal responsibility for the fact that the > dollar is finally rising against the euro a little bit: I decided last > week to buy some euros ahead of time just in case the dollar kept > slipping, and of course that turned out to be the day that the euro > was > at its record high.) > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Mar 26 10:00:43 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 10:00:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Laurent, I will put the agenda into our TEI-XML template so that it can be added to the website. Should we simply put a link to it on http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/index.xml at the top, to be replaced by the minutes of the meeting once they are complete? David On Wed, 26 Mar 2008, Laurent Romary wrote: > Dear all, > Here below you will find a possible agenda for our Galway meeting. We > should spend quite a great deal of our meeting to technical issue > (see also Lou's message about SF feature requests). Could we have > this agenda put on the TEI web site together with the relevant > pointers when available? > Best wishes, > Laurent > > Tour de table of council members > Adoption of agenda > Review of minutes from last meeting (Conf. Call, 7 Feb.) > Council work and organization > Editorial support > Role of SIGs and working groups (cf. SS, DO, LR) > Technical discussions > Oustanding SF feature requests, summary document by Lou > See ://sourceforge.net/tracker/?group_id=106328 > Shortcomings of @precision (Lou: should it be put on SF feature request) > Wrap-up: dealing with feature requests > New chapter proposal (Brett) > TEI-METS (John Wlash) > SIG - correspondance > Tools > Open Office and MSWord (SR) > Rewamping TEI to xHTML and PDF stylesheets > Projects-dissemination > Examples (internationalisation, cross referencing, etc.) (JC) > ISO (SR) > Tite, update > DC 2008 (LR) > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Mar 26 14:33:44 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting agenda online Message-ID: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tca38.xml Please send any remaining tweaks or corrections to Lou, as he is able to edit this directly and I'm not. -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Mar 26 14:51:21 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 12:51:21 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Agenda Message-ID: <1206557481.8286.9.camel@localhost> I can handle the tei tite, I suspect. -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor and Chair, Department of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair and CEO, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Canada Vox: +1 403 329-2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 26 14:58:47 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 18:58:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting agenda online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47EA9CE7.5030206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Um, we really ought to have a report on I18N activities, please. It won't take long, but it would good to have it in the minutes. Sorry not to have noticed earlier. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Mar 27 01:34:56 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 06:34:56 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting agenda online In-Reply-To: <47EA9CE7.5030206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47EA9CE7.5030206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3B5FFB6C-5A36-4F01-8212-918638AE0C9C@loria.fr> Agree. Think of providing us with a quick overview of priorities in this domain. Laurent Le 26 mars 08 ? 19:58, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Um, we really ought to have a report on I18N activities, please. > It won't take long, but it would good to have it in the minutes. > > Sorry not to have noticed earlier. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Mar 27 13:57:52 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> I realize that Council may consider this an intrusion, since I am no longer on Council and have not been invited to attend the meeting in Galway. If so, please accept my apologies in advance. However, I am very concerned that one of the most important, if not the most important, tasks facing the TEI is not on the agenda. In P5 we have explicitly created a system which is not designed to be useful out-of-the-box, but rather is intended to be customized. Proper customization of P5 is an integral part of any TEI encoding project. We (I think appropriately) make a big deal out of the advantages of using ODD for this purpose, and even provide some tools to help. One of the advantages we (appropriately) tout is that from an ODD you get not only a schema, but also custom documentation. This custom documentation of their schema could be extremely useful to an encoding project. However, currently it is not very useful at all because a) it is not very well designed, b) its CSS stylesheet is such that it is all but completely unreadable c) links to the Guidelines proper don't work, and d) internationalization output doesn't work correctly. Having custom on-line documentation (not necessarily printed) is, IMHO, absolutely crucial to the acceptance of TEI in many circles. Imagine how much easier it would be to introduce people to TEI if the reference documentation for TEI Lite were usable. The TEI put a lot of effort into making TEI Lite accurate and helpful (the vast majority of the work was done by Lou Burnard). But from section 20 on through the ever-so-important appendices, it's so poorly formatted as to be unusable. The TEI put a lot of effort into allowing users to choose which language would be used for formal documentation (i.e., and inside <*Spec>) and for element and attribute names (the vast majority of the technical work and coordination was done by Sebastian Rahtz). But this effort doesn't help most users, because even when Roma does use the requested language (and I have not been able to figure out when it will spit out non-English snippets and when it won't), it seems to use all of them, and even if it only used the right one, the formatting would still make the documentation all but unusable. I don't know that it is reasonable for TEI to attack (a) in the near future. But it seems to me that (b), (c), and (d) are of the utmost importance and should be very very high priority tasks for Council (in that order, I would say, but that's debatable). P.S. Another item that should be on the agenda, although not as important, is finding the resources to improve Roma so that it is more usable for what customizers actually need to do (e.g., constrain type= values and document them), or to re-write Roma from scratch, preferably as a desktop application.[1] Note ---- [1] It has now been nearly 2 years since Amit Kumar took on this task, and since he is no longer on Council and has pretty much dropped out of sight (I have been to UIUC 3 times since, and have barely seen him, and he has not responded to my e-mail queries about this project), I think it would be worth examining this issue afresh. If Council would like, I would not mind trying to check in w/ Amit again via phone just so we know for sure where he stands. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 27 15:14:34 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:14:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda In-Reply-To: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47EBF21A.2000401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > One of the advantages we (appropriately) tout is that from an ODD you > get not only a schema, but also custom documentation. and, as you rightly say, its not very well done at present. Seems like a good target for the next release to clean up some of the things you list although I don't really buy > Having custom on-line documentation (not necessarily printed) is, > IMHO, absolutely crucial to the acceptance of TEI in many circles. > because I have never seen anyone say this in public. > Imagine how much easier it would be to introduce people to TEI if the > reference documentation for TEI Lite were usable. looking at http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-exemplars/html/teilite.doc.html, I am somewhat at a loss to see why you think this is so bad? apart from links back to the main guidelines. > P.S. Another item that should be on the agenda, although not as > important, is finding the resources to improve Roma so that it is > more usable for what customizers actually need to do (e.g., > constrain type= values and document them), or to re-write Roma > from scratch, preferably as a desktop application.[1] > I really don't agree about rewriting it as a desktop app. I don't recall anyone from userland ever asking for this. I wonder what others think? Of course I agree that the interface is not half, or a quarter, as good as it could be, and I'd love to see someone take this on. I suspect a very great deal could be done with judicious Javascript on top of the existing stuff. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Mar 27 15:27:48 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:27:48 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda In-Reply-To: <47EBF21A.2000401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> <47EBF21A.2000401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18411.62772.845375.802623@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Thanks for replying, Sebastian. > and, as you rightly say, its not very well done at present. Seems > like a good target for the next release to clean up some of the > things you list Nice to see we're in the same chapter, if not on the exact same page. > although I don't really buy > > Having custom on-line documentation (not necessarily printed) is, > > IMHO, absolutely crucial to the acceptance of TEI in many circles. > because I have never seen anyone say this in public. Well, I have, although I have to admit, most often I'm hearing myself :-) Seriously, I'm thinking of the groups who are really taken aback by the size of TEI in the raw, and are excited at the possibility of trimming TEI down to size for their own group. Some of them can be quite dismayed that they can't document enumerated attribute values in Roma, and even if they do, they don't get any readable doc. > looking at > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-exemplars/html/teilite.doc.html, > I am somewhat at a loss to see why you think this is so bad? apart > from links back to the main guidelines. Indeed, that version is not so bad (although it, too, could use some work). But rather, generate the same documentation from Roma, and you'll see what I mean. (Or try some other customization template.) > I really don't agree about rewriting it as a desktop app. I don't > recall anyone from userland ever asking for this. IIRC not too many in Kyoto actually cared whether the app was desktop or web-based (some liked the idea of being able to do this w/o an internet connection or having to run a local web service), but most everyone liked some of the features that Amit was eager to put into a desktop app, but wouldn't touch in an on-line app. One particular feature I remember (because I am quite enamored of it) was the ability to have both XML and GUI views of the ODD file. Kinda like the way the CSSEdit program gives you a GUI but also lets you edit CSS code directly. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 27 15:52:14 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:52:14 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda In-Reply-To: <18411.62772.845375.802623@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> <47EBF21A.2000401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18411.62772.845375.802623@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47EBFAEE.5040609@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > Seriously, I'm thinking of the groups who are really taken aback by > the size of TEI in the raw, and are excited at the possibility of > trimming TEI down to size for their own group. Some of them can be > quite dismayed that they can't document enumerated attribute values > in Roma, and even if they do, they don't get any readable doc. > I entirely recognize these groups as a concept, but I have not personally met them in the wild :-} > Indeed, that version is not so bad (although it, too, could use some > work). But rather, generate the same documentation from Roma, and > you'll see what I mean. (Or try some other customization template.) > so if the style for the generated Lite is sort of OK, it should be easy to make Roma do the same dynamically. This is obviously an error which I need to work on. > One particular > feature I remember (because I am quite enamored of it) was the > ability to have both XML and GUI views of the ODD file. Kinda like > the way the CSSEdit program gives you a GUI but also lets you edit > CSS code directly. probably no big deal to add that in some way. Perhaps you'd like to put together a user survey which tries to get an idea of what people want changed in Roma, or added? I fear that we are not the best people to set priorities. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Mar 27 21:54:34 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda In-Reply-To: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: Should we simply add "Roma" to the agenda under the Tools heading? Not to attempt to resolve all the issues that Syd mentions but to set some priorities. On Thu, 27 Mar 2008, Syd Bauman wrote: > I realize that Council may consider this an intrusion, since I am no > longer on Council and have not been invited to attend the meeting in > Galway. If so, please accept my apologies in advance. However, I am > very concerned that one of the most important, if not the most > important, tasks facing the TEI is not on the agenda. > > > In P5 we have explicitly created a system which is not designed to be > useful out-of-the-box, but rather is intended to be customized. > Proper customization of P5 is an integral part of any TEI encoding > project. We (I think appropriately) make a big deal out of the > advantages of using ODD for this purpose, and even provide some tools > to help. > > One of the advantages we (appropriately) tout is that from an ODD you > get not only a schema, but also custom documentation. This custom > documentation of their schema could be extremely useful to an > encoding project. However, currently it is not very useful at all > because > a) it is not very well designed, > b) its CSS stylesheet is such that it is all but completely > unreadable > c) links to the Guidelines proper don't work, and > d) internationalization output doesn't work correctly. > > Having custom on-line documentation (not necessarily printed) is, > IMHO, absolutely crucial to the acceptance of TEI in many circles. > Imagine how much easier it would be to introduce people to TEI if the > reference documentation for TEI Lite were usable. The TEI put a lot of > effort into making TEI Lite accurate and helpful (the vast majority of > the work was done by Lou Burnard). But from section 20 on through the > ever-so-important appendices, it's so poorly formatted as to be > unusable. > > The TEI put a lot of effort into allowing users to choose which > language would be used for formal documentation (i.e., and > inside <*Spec>) and for element and attribute names (the vast > majority of the technical work and coordination was done by Sebastian > Rahtz). But this effort doesn't help most users, because even when > Roma does use the requested language (and I have not been able to > figure out when it will spit out non-English snippets and when it > won't), it seems to use all of them, and even if it only used the > right one, the formatting would still make the documentation all but > unusable. > > I don't know that it is reasonable for TEI to attack (a) in the near > future. But it seems to me that (b), (c), and (d) are of the utmost > importance and should be very very high priority tasks for Council (in > that order, I would say, but that's debatable). > > > P.S. Another item that should be on the agenda, although not as > important, is finding the resources to improve Roma so that it is > more usable for what customizers actually need to do (e.g., > constrain type= values and document them), or to re-write Roma > from scratch, preferably as a desktop application.[1] > > > Note > ---- > [1] It has now been nearly 2 years since Amit Kumar took on this task, > and since he is no longer on Council and has pretty much dropped > out of sight (I have been to UIUC 3 times since, and have barely > seen him, and he has not responded to my e-mail queries about this > project), I think it would be worth examining this issue afresh. > If Council would like, I would not mind trying to check in w/ Amit > again via phone just so we know for sure where he stands. > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Mar 28 02:19:08 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:19:08 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda In-Reply-To: References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <34DF296F-9118-4D90-991F-D9855D43CB95@loria.fr> I would say we had that already: the issue of rewamping the stylesheet is strongly related to presenting the best possible documentation to our user (BTW, who is taking the lead on this issue: James? Seb?) Le 28 mars 08 ? 02:54, David Sewell a ?crit : > Should we simply add "Roma" to the agenda under the Tools heading? Not > to attempt to resolve all the issues that Syd mentions but to set some > priorities. > > On Thu, 27 Mar 2008, Syd Bauman wrote: > >> I realize that Council may consider this an intrusion, since I am no >> longer on Council and have not been invited to attend the meeting in >> Galway. If so, please accept my apologies in advance. However, I am >> very concerned that one of the most important, if not the most >> important, tasks facing the TEI is not on the agenda. >> >> >> In P5 we have explicitly created a system which is not designed to be >> useful out-of-the-box, but rather is intended to be customized. >> Proper customization of P5 is an integral part of any TEI encoding >> project. We (I think appropriately) make a big deal out of the >> advantages of using ODD for this purpose, and even provide some tools >> to help. >> >> One of the advantages we (appropriately) tout is that from an ODD you >> get not only a schema, but also custom documentation. This custom >> documentation of their schema could be extremely useful to an >> encoding project. However, currently it is not very useful at all >> because >> a) it is not very well designed, >> b) its CSS stylesheet is such that it is all but completely >> unreadable >> c) links to the Guidelines proper don't work, and >> d) internationalization output doesn't work correctly. >> >> Having custom on-line documentation (not necessarily printed) is, >> IMHO, absolutely crucial to the acceptance of TEI in many circles. >> Imagine how much easier it would be to introduce people to TEI if the >> reference documentation for TEI Lite were usable. The TEI put a >> lot of >> effort into making TEI Lite accurate and helpful (the vast >> majority of >> the work was done by Lou Burnard). But from section 20 on through the >> ever-so-important appendices, it's so poorly formatted as to be >> unusable. >> >> The TEI put a lot of effort into allowing users to choose which >> language would be used for formal documentation (i.e., and >> inside <*Spec>) and for element and attribute names (the vast >> majority of the technical work and coordination was done by Sebastian >> Rahtz). But this effort doesn't help most users, because even when >> Roma does use the requested language (and I have not been able to >> figure out when it will spit out non-English snippets and when it >> won't), it seems to use all of them, and even if it only used the >> right one, the formatting would still make the documentation all but >> unusable. >> >> I don't know that it is reasonable for TEI to attack (a) in the near >> future. But it seems to me that (b), (c), and (d) are of the utmost >> importance and should be very very high priority tasks for Council >> (in >> that order, I would say, but that's debatable). >> >> >> P.S. Another item that should be on the agenda, although not as >> important, is finding the resources to improve Roma so that it is >> more usable for what customizers actually need to do (e.g., >> constrain type= values and document them), or to re-write Roma >> from scratch, preferably as a desktop application.[1] >> >> >> Note >> ---- >> [1] It has now been nearly 2 years since Amit Kumar took on this >> task, >> and since he is no longer on Council and has pretty much dropped >> out of sight (I have been to UIUC 3 times since, and have barely >> seen him, and he has not responded to my e-mail queries about this >> project), I think it would be worth examining this issue afresh. >> If Council would like, I would not mind trying to check in w/ Amit >> again via phone just so we know for sure where he stands. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Mar 28 06:26:43 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:26:43 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda In-Reply-To: <34DF296F-9118-4D90-991F-D9855D43CB95@loria.fr> References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> <34DF296F-9118-4D90-991F-D9855D43CB95@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47ECC7E3.50302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > I would say we had that already: the issue of rewamping the > stylesheet is strongly related to presenting the best possible > documentation to our user (BTW, who is taking the lead on this issue: > James? Seb?) Since the stylesheets are Sebastian's baby, I would assume him. I am, of course, happy to assist in any way though. I think discussing Roma is maybe separate from the XSL for PDF/XHTML, since Roma does more than just produce documentation. (And those parts need updating as well.) However, they are all under the same kind of heading as deliverables we provide to users. I'm sure Sebastian will be happy to talk about both. ;-) -James > > Le 28 mars 08 ? 02:54, David Sewell a ?crit : > >> Should we simply add "Roma" to the agenda under the Tools heading? Not >> to attempt to resolve all the issues that Syd mentions but to set some >> priorities. >> >> On Thu, 27 Mar 2008, Syd Bauman wrote: >> >>> I realize that Council may consider this an intrusion, since I am no >>> longer on Council and have not been invited to attend the meeting in >>> Galway. If so, please accept my apologies in advance. However, I am >>> very concerned that one of the most important, if not the most >>> important, tasks facing the TEI is not on the agenda. >>> >>> >>> In P5 we have explicitly created a system which is not designed to be >>> useful out-of-the-box, but rather is intended to be customized. >>> Proper customization of P5 is an integral part of any TEI encoding >>> project. We (I think appropriately) make a big deal out of the >>> advantages of using ODD for this purpose, and even provide some tools >>> to help. >>> >>> One of the advantages we (appropriately) tout is that from an ODD you >>> get not only a schema, but also custom documentation. This custom >>> documentation of their schema could be extremely useful to an >>> encoding project. However, currently it is not very useful at all >>> because >>> a) it is not very well designed, >>> b) its CSS stylesheet is such that it is all but completely >>> unreadable >>> c) links to the Guidelines proper don't work, and >>> d) internationalization output doesn't work correctly. >>> >>> Having custom on-line documentation (not necessarily printed) is, >>> IMHO, absolutely crucial to the acceptance of TEI in many circles. >>> Imagine how much easier it would be to introduce people to TEI if the >>> reference documentation for TEI Lite were usable. The TEI put a >>> lot of >>> effort into making TEI Lite accurate and helpful (the vast >>> majority of >>> the work was done by Lou Burnard). But from section 20 on through the >>> ever-so-important appendices, it's so poorly formatted as to be >>> unusable. >>> >>> The TEI put a lot of effort into allowing users to choose which >>> language would be used for formal documentation (i.e., and >>> inside <*Spec>) and for element and attribute names (the vast >>> majority of the technical work and coordination was done by Sebastian >>> Rahtz). But this effort doesn't help most users, because even when >>> Roma does use the requested language (and I have not been able to >>> figure out when it will spit out non-English snippets and when it >>> won't), it seems to use all of them, and even if it only used the >>> right one, the formatting would still make the documentation all but >>> unusable. >>> >>> I don't know that it is reasonable for TEI to attack (a) in the near >>> future. But it seems to me that (b), (c), and (d) are of the utmost >>> importance and should be very very high priority tasks for Council >>> (in >>> that order, I would say, but that's debatable). >>> >>> >>> P.S. Another item that should be on the agenda, although not as >>> important, is finding the resources to improve Roma so that it is >>> more usable for what customizers actually need to do (e.g., >>> constrain type= values and document them), or to re-write Roma >>> from scratch, preferably as a desktop application.[1] >>> >>> >>> Note >>> ---- >>> [1] It has now been nearly 2 years since Amit Kumar took on this >>> task, >>> and since he is no longer on Council and has pretty much dropped >>> out of sight (I have been to UIUC 3 times since, and have barely >>> seen him, and he has not responded to my e-mail queries about this >>> project), I think it would be worth examining this issue afresh. >>> If Council would like, I would not mind trying to check in w/ Amit >>> again via phone just so we know for sure where he stands. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >> -- >> David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager >> ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press >> PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA >> Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 >> Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 >> Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Mar 28 06:30:46 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:30:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda In-Reply-To: <47ECC7E3.50302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> <34DF296F-9118-4D90-991F-D9855D43CB95@loria.fr> <47ECC7E3.50302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47ECC8D6.3040505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > Since the stylesheets are Sebastian's baby, I would assume him. I am, of > course, happy to assist in any way though. I think discussing Roma is > maybe separate from the XSL for PDF/XHTML, since Roma does more than just > produce documentation. (And those parts need updating as well.) However, > they are all under the same kind of heading as deliverables we provide to > users. I'm sure Sebastian will be happy to talk about both. ;-) > I would like to make a distinction between the stylesheets which deliver the Guidelines, and the docs from Roma; and the stylesheets which we offer to the public as a possible basis for their own work. Yes, they are the same code base, but in the case of the former, it is plainly my commitment to make these do what is needed. For the latter, adding support for rendering (eg) the dictionaries module is beyond my remit. but then maybe I am muddying the waters :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Mar 28 06:43:41 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:43:41 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda In-Reply-To: <47ECC8D6.3040505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> <34DF296F-9118-4D90-991F-D9855D43CB95@loria.fr> <47ECC7E3.50302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47ECC8D6.3040505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <7C9898ED-8E70-4DAC-929C-9E0467A049B7@loria.fr> No. That's exactly the kind of report/discussion I would like to have concerning the stylesheets: what is shared between the public set and the internal ones, what should be updated/changed in the internal ones, etc.? I guess a one picture showing the various workflows and dependancies would be useful. Le 28 mars 08 ? 11:30, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > James Cummings wrote: >> Since the stylesheets are Sebastian's baby, I would assume him. I >> am, of course, happy to assist in any way though. I think >> discussing Roma is maybe separate from the XSL for PDF/XHTML, >> since Roma does more than just produce documentation. (And those >> parts need updating as well.) However, they are all under the >> same kind of heading as deliverables we provide to users. I'm >> sure Sebastian will be happy to talk about both. ;-) >> > I would like to make a distinction between the stylesheets > which deliver the Guidelines, and the docs from Roma; > and the stylesheets which we offer to the public as a > possible basis for their own work. Yes, they are the same code > base, but > in the case of the former, it is plainly my commitment to > make these do what is needed. For the latter, adding > support for rendering (eg) the dictionaries module > is beyond my remit. > > but then maybe I am muddying the waters :-} > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University > Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Mar 28 06:46:26 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:46:26 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda In-Reply-To: <7C9898ED-8E70-4DAC-929C-9E0467A049B7@loria.fr> References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> <34DF296F-9118-4D90-991F-D9855D43CB95@loria.fr> <47ECC7E3.50302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47ECC8D6.3040505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <7C9898ED-8E70-4DAC-929C-9E0467A049B7@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47ECCC82.6000600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > No. That's exactly the kind of report/discussion I would like to have > concerning the stylesheets: what is shared between the public set and > the internal ones, what should be updated/changed in the internal > ones, etc.? > I guess a one picture showing the various workflows and dependancies > would be useful. > I suppose I should try to draw this.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Mar 28 06:56:19 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:56:19 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway agenda In-Reply-To: <47ECCC82.6000600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> <34DF296F-9118-4D90-991F-D9855D43CB95@loria.fr> <47ECC7E3.50302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47ECC8D6.3040505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <7C9898ED-8E70-4DAC-929C-9E0467A049B7@loria.fr> <47ECCC82.6000600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <070E8901-67EB-4C78-8458-48322EE2D186@loria.fr> Yeap, comprising the workflows and joint components of the stylesheets used in schema generation. I would have a theoretical picture in mind. Just wondering whther it matches the reality ;-) Le 28 mars 08 ? 11:46, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Laurent Romary wrote: >> No. That's exactly the kind of report/discussion I would like to >> have concerning the stylesheets: what is shared between the public >> set and the internal ones, what should be updated/changed in the >> internal ones, etc.? >> I guess a one picture showing the various workflows and >> dependancies would be useful. >> > I suppose I should try to draw this.... > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University > Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Fri Mar 28 08:17:39 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:17:39 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting agenda online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47ECE1E3.90405@kcl.ac.uk> In the 'Forthcoming events, conferences, workshops, etc.' TEI Members' Meeting 2008 is missing. Arianna David Sewell wrote: > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tca38.xml > > Please send any remaining tweaks or corrections to Lou, as he is able to > edit this directly and I'm not. > -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Mar 28 08:28:10 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:28:10 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting agenda online In-Reply-To: <47ECE1E3.90405@kcl.ac.uk> References: <47ECE1E3.90405@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5F890B03-655D-4E74-9272-CB44D73205A5@loria.fr> Good point. Laurent Le 28 mars 08 ? 13:17, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > In the 'Forthcoming events, conferences, workshops, etc.' TEI Members' > Meeting 2008 is missing. > > Arianna > > David Sewell wrote: >> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tca38.xml >> >> Please send any remaining tweaks or corrections to Lou, as he is >> able to >> edit this directly and I'm not. >> > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk Fri Mar 28 08:33:47 2008 From: elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk (Elena Pierazzo) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:33:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting agenda online In-Reply-To: <47ECE1E3.90405@kcl.ac.uk> References: <47ECE1E3.90405@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47ECE5AB.9030301@kcl.ac.uk> Dear all, I've been slightly surprised by reading Syd's email as I did not realized he was no longer part of the council. I guess this is one of the consequences of the change in the by-law, but I confess I totally missed it or I did not understand completely how the changes would have affected in practice the role of the editors and of the council. Looking at the agenda I see there is a point on Council work and organization about Editorial support: is this point including a wide discussion on the role of the council after the changes in the by-law? If not, can we include something of the kind in the agenda? I think that will be very useful especially for new members of the council. Elena Arianna Ciula wrote: > In the 'Forthcoming events, conferences, workshops, etc.' TEI Members' > Meeting 2008 is missing. > > Arianna > > David Sewell wrote: > >> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tca38.xml >> >> Please send any remaining tweaks or corrections to Lou, as he is able to >> edit this directly and I'm not. >> >> > > -- Dr Elena Pierazzo Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Mar 28 08:42:45 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:42:45 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting agenda online In-Reply-To: <47ECE5AB.9030301@kcl.ac.uk> References: <47ECE1E3.90405@kcl.ac.uk> <47ECE5AB.9030301@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <21A53FCA-6A16-4C04-8D31-981BBC6794D0@loria.fr> Hi Elena, This was quite an important aspect of our discussion on our last telephone conference (see http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/ Meetings/tcm37.xml) and we will build upon this to carry out our organizational discussions next week. See you next week, Laurent Le 28 mars 08 ? 13:33, Elena Pierazzo a ?crit : > Dear all, > > I've been slightly surprised by reading Syd's email as I did not > realized he was no longer part of the council. I guess this is one of > the consequences of the change in the by-law, but I confess I totally > missed it or I did not understand completely how the changes would > have > affected in practice the role of the editors and of the council. > > Looking at the agenda I see there is a point on Council work and > organization about Editorial support: is this point including a wide > discussion on the role of the council after the changes in the by-law? > If not, can we include something of the kind in the agenda? I think > that > will be very useful especially for new members of the council. > > Elena > > Arianna Ciula wrote: >> In the 'Forthcoming events, conferences, workshops, etc.' TEI >> Members' >> Meeting 2008 is missing. >> >> Arianna >> >> David Sewell wrote: >> >>> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tca38.xml >>> >>> Please send any remaining tweaks or corrections to Lou, as he is >>> able to >>> edit this directly and I'm not. >>> >>> >> >> > > -- > Dr Elena Pierazzo > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > > Phone: 0207-848-1949 > Fax: 0207-848-2980 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Mar 28 09:46:14 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:46:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting agenda online In-Reply-To: <47ECE5AB.9030301@kcl.ac.uk> References: <47ECE1E3.90405@kcl.ac.uk> <47ECE5AB.9030301@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: This is indirectly related to Elena's point: it occurred to me recently that we should make available somewhere on the TEI website a list of all past TEI Board and Council members, plus editors, along with dates of service. (Perhaps there could simply be "Past Members" links from the Council and Board pages.) Does anyone maintain such a list, or would we need to piece it together based on old meeting minutes, etc.? On Fri, 28 Mar 2008, Elena Pierazzo wrote: > Dear all, > > I've been slightly surprised by reading Syd's email as I did not > realized he was no longer part of the council. I guess this is one of > the consequences of the change in the by-law, but I confess I totally > missed it or I did not understand completely how the changes would have > affected in practice the role of the editors and of the council. > > Looking at the agenda I see there is a point on Council work and > organization about Editorial support: is this point including a wide > discussion on the role of the council after the changes in the by-law? > If not, can we include something of the kind in the agenda? I think that > will be very useful especially for new members of the council. > > Elena > > Arianna Ciula wrote: > > In the 'Forthcoming events, conferences, workshops, etc.' TEI Members' > > Meeting 2008 is missing. > > > > Arianna > > > > David Sewell wrote: > > > >> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tca38.xml > >> > >> Please send any remaining tweaks or corrections to Lou, as he is able to > >> edit this directly and I'm not. > >> > >> > > > > > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Mar 28 09:46:26 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 13:46:26 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting agenda online In-Reply-To: References: <47ECE1E3.90405@kcl.ac.uk> <47ECE5AB.9030301@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47ECF6B2.4030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > This is indirectly related to Elena's point: it occurred to me recently > that we should make available somewhere on the TEI website a list of all > past TEI Board and Council members, plus editors, along with dates of > service. (Perhaps there could simply be "Past Members" links from the > Council and Board pages.) Does anyone maintain such a list, or would we > need to piece it together based on old meeting minutes, etc.? > it was done up to last November, for publication in P5. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Mar 28 09:57:00 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting agenda online In-Reply-To: <47ECF6B2.4030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47ECE1E3.90405@kcl.ac.uk> <47ECE5AB.9030301@kcl.ac.uk> <47ECF6B2.4030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Ah, I see it there in "Preface and Acknowledgments". Sometime after our meeting then I'll try to remember to create lists of "Past Members" that can be added to the Council and Board pages on the website. On Fri, 28 Mar 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > David Sewell wrote: > > This is indirectly related to Elena's point: it occurred to me recently > > that we should make available somewhere on the TEI website a list of all > > past TEI Board and Council members, plus editors, along with dates of > > service. (Perhaps there could simply be "Past Members" links from the > > Council and Board pages.) Does anyone maintain such a list, or would we > > need to piece it together based on old meeting minutes, etc.? > > > it was done up to last November, for publication in P5. > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Mar 28 10:35:53 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:35:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting agenda online In-Reply-To: References: <47ECE1E3.90405@kcl.ac.uk> <47ECE5AB.9030301@kcl.ac.uk> <47ECF6B2.4030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47ED0249.1090601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> One of my longstanding goals would be to create the authoritative TEI personography, using of course, with names, affiliations, links to documents, ... avid Sewell wrote: > Ah, I see it there in "Preface and Acknowledgments". > > Sometime after our meeting then I'll try to remember to create lists of > "Past Members" that can be added to the Council and Board pages on the > website. > > On Fri, 28 Mar 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> David Sewell wrote: >>> This is indirectly related to Elena's point: it occurred to me recently >>> that we should make available somewhere on the TEI website a list of all >>> past TEI Board and Council members, plus editors, along with dates of >>> service. (Perhaps there could simply be "Past Members" links from the >>> Council and Board pages.) Does anyone maintain such a list, or would we >>> need to piece it together based on old meeting minutes, etc.? >>> >> it was done up to last November, for publication in P5. >> >> > From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Mar 28 10:50:16 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:50:16 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting agenda online In-Reply-To: <47ED0249.1090601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47ECE1E3.90405@kcl.ac.uk> <47ECE5AB.9030301@kcl.ac.uk> <47ECF6B2.4030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47ED0249.1090601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18413.1448.209666.882619@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > One of my longstanding goals would be to create the authoritative > TEI personography, using of course, with names, > affiliations, links to documents, ... A most excellent idea! Federico Meschini has created a Topic Map of TEI-C persons, which might be an interesting starting point. He showed it at a Members' Meeting ... 2005, maybe? Even if it's not a good starting point, it might be interesting to try to find ways to round-trip the data from personagraphy to topic map. From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Mar 28 12:19:54 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Adding TEI-L, others to MarkMail lists? Message-ID: A very cool spin-off of MarkLogic's XQuery work is a search engine they've developed for archived email lists. Saxonica's support list, for example, is available at http://saxon.markmail.org/ . If you go there and search for "next-in-chain" you'll see a query I sent this morning and Michael Kay's answer, already indexed. The MarkMail people (http://markmail.org/) will load additional lists on request. Is it worth considering doing this for any or all of the publicly accessible TEI lists? One advantage would be the ability to search the entire hierarchy of "tei." lists simultaneously. This would require providing them with archive files in a usable form, plus adding a MarkMail subscriber for each target list, all of which is easier said than done. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From pfs-listmail at umich.edu Fri Mar 28 16:20:59 2008 From: pfs-listmail at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] TEI by example In-Reply-To: <18413.1448.209666.882619@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <47ECE1E3.90405@kcl.ac.uk> <47ECE5AB.9030301@kcl.ac.uk> <47ECF6B2.4030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47ED0249.1090601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18413.1448.209666.882619@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: I do not know how this kind of thing can be avoided, but it should at least be noted how much more powerful examples can be than definitions, and therefore how important to practice. One of the more frustrating obstacles facing someone contemplating conversion of existing documents from P3/P4 to P5 lies not in explicit changes to the scheme but in the substitution of one example for another in the documentation, when the two examples point to diametrically opposed semantics and wholly diverse practices. It is difficult in such cases to judge whether the change is a deliberate change in semantics or simply reflects the (perhaps idiosyncratic) practice of the contributor who supplied the new example, without necessarily excluding the understanding expressed in the previous example. For instance, though the definition of has not changed appreciably (maybe at all) from P3 to P5, the P3/P4 guidelines included this example: Thine to command Humph. Moseley but the P5 guidelines this (contradictory) one: Yours more than my own, Clarissa Harlowe The P3 example makes sense to me. It tells me to include within all the phrases descriptive of, or placed in apposition to, the signatory, hence Roger Smith, Mayor of London Your best friend, Roger Smith A worm among men, but your friend, R.S. It treats "R.S., thine forever" and "R.S., editor for life" the same. We have tagged a few hundred thousand signatures following this rule. The P5 example, on the other hand, tells me that "your best friend" belongs in , as perhaps does "(but) your friend", but "Mayor of London" and perhaps "a worm among men" belong in , without telling me what the principled difference is between them. At this point I do not know whether our practice (extrapolated advisedly from the P3 example) is wrong, or (if it is) what principle to apply in divvying up such phrases between and in future. Or is the P5 example itself wrong? pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Mar 29 08:03:32 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 12:03:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI by example In-Reply-To: References: <47ECE1E3.90405@kcl.ac.uk> <47ECE5AB.9030301@kcl.ac.uk> <47ECF6B2.4030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47ED0249.1090601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18413.1448.209666.882619@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47EE3014.2060009@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Both the examples Paul cites below were present in P3/P4. Both of them are still present in P5. Where's the beef? The Moseley example (still in P5) demonstrates that can be used in the way Paul suggests, and is the canonical example for the element spec itself, as it was in P3 and still is in P5. The Clarissa example is one of several in section 7.2.2 (P4) or http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/DS.html#DSOC (P5) demonstrating how to use and to combine div-liminal elements which seem to belong together. The section notes that "it may be convenient" to group such elements together. It does not require it, any more than it requires a narrow distinction between the part of a signature containing a name and the rest of the phrase around it. This example is also just the same in P3 (http://www.tei-c.org.uk/Vault/GL/P3/DS.htm#DSOC) I don't say that any of these examples is perfect. But I find no evidence that either of them has changed in anyway since P3. Paul F. Schaffner wrote: > > One of the more frustrating obstacles facing someone > contemplating conversion of existing documents from > P3/P4 to P5 lies not in explicit changes to the scheme > but in the substitution of one example for another in the > documentation, when the two examples point to > diametrically opposed semantics and wholly diverse practices. > It is difficult in such cases to judge whether the change > is a deliberate change in semantics or simply reflects > the (perhaps idiosyncratic) practice of the contributor > who supplied the new example, without necessarily excluding > the understanding expressed in the previous example. > > For instance, though the definition of has > not changed appreciably (maybe at all) from P3 to P5, > the P3/P4 guidelines included this example: > > Thine to command Humph. Moseley > > but the P5 guidelines this (contradictory) one: > > Yours more than my own, > Clarissa Harlowe > > The P3 example makes sense to me. It tells me to include > within all the phrases descriptive of, or placed > in apposition to, the signatory, hence > > Roger Smith, Mayor of London > Your best friend, Roger Smith > A worm among men, but your friend, R.S. > > It treats "R.S., thine forever" and "R.S., editor for life" > the same. > > We have tagged a few hundred thousand signatures > following this rule. > > The P5 example, on the other hand, tells me that > "your best friend" belongs in , as > perhaps does "(but) your friend", but "Mayor of > London" and perhaps "a worm among men" belong > in , without telling me what the principled > difference is between them. > > At this point I do not know whether our practice > (extrapolated advisedly from the P3 example) is > wrong, or (if it is) what principle to apply in > divvying up such phrases between and > in future. Or is the P5 example itself wrong? > > pfs > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ > 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Mar 29 18:53:37 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 22:53:37 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] docs from Roma (was Re: Galway agenda) In-Reply-To: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47EEC871.4050803@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Stimulated by Syd, I looked at Roma today to see why the HTML doc which it spits out looks different from that produced on a command line with roma. It appears that the XSL process run inside PHP does some odd stuff, which confuses the DUMBCLUCKSTUPID web browser, and so the display is not right. I am not sure if this is at the bottom of the problem, but it gives me something to work on. I will hopefully get the language thing sorted at this stage too. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Sun Mar 30 08:26:56 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 14:26:56 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Proposed agenda item: Getting started using TEI document Message-ID: <47EF8710.90002@xs4all.nl> Hello all, Isn't it time for us to write a true 'getting started using TEI' document? Currently we have a number of in some way introductory texts, but most of them are not really for beginners. The 'Gentle introduction to XML' provides good introductory reading, but is not a guide. The Guidelines chapters 'TEI infrastructure'(ch. 1) and 'Using the TEI' (ch. 23) are way beyond the innocent beginner, someone who is, let's say, writing a thesis on a not very well known text and wants to publish that text along with his thesis. The customisation page on the website is also targeted at someone who is already well embarked as a TEI user. If the rest of the council thinks that would be useful, I'd be willing to draft such a document, perhaps together with one or two other council members. I'd expect such a document to be perhaps 15/20 pages long. A getting started document should include practical things such as the question which editor to use and how to display the xml. The document would assume a Windows platform, as that is what most prospective users would be familiar with. The document would not be part of the Guidelines (which should be platform and software agnostic), but would be part of the website, perhaps the wiki. Wherever possible, the document would refer to existing documents (such as Guidelines sections). What a getting started document might discuss is, among other things, the following: - Should you use TEI? Should discuss: nature of material, desired result, competence of encoder, available technical support, intellectual and practical benefits, effort to be expected - What you should know Reference to gentle XML introduction Even gentler intro into creating html from xml using xslt (not discuss: pdf creation) - Overall structure of a TEI text header, text, body, div, head, p, lg, l Reference to TEI lite chapters - Choosing and installing an editor (Limit discussion in doc to single editor?) - Load, modify, validate a complete ready-made document - Getting standard stylesheets to run Installing XSLT processor Downloading and customising stylesheets Running stylesheets - Getting this to work on sample of own text Preparing text in XML vs. converting prepared text to XML - Text modelling Choosing elements and attributes Extension: Modifying elements or creating new ones? - Schema's Defining a schema using Roma Reference to 'Getting started with P5 ODDs' Using the schema from within the editor - Where to go from here Can we discuss this in Galway? Peter From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Mar 30 09:13:25 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 14:13:25 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Proposed agenda item: Getting started using TEI document In-Reply-To: <47EF8710.90002@xs4all.nl> References: <47EF8710.90002@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <47EF91F5.8090707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> +1, 1000 times. This seems very much in line with our avowed intentions for this year. I suspect much of the material exists in various people's teaching notes and slides. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Mar 30 10:34:03 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:34:03 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] documentation from Roma (was Re: Galway agenda) In-Reply-To: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47EFA4DB.4080808@oucs.ox.ac.uk> If some of you could test http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Roma/, I would be grateful. What I have done is * fix an error which meant that the formatting of the ODD reference documentation was messed up * make links to TEI Guidelines work, albeit not entirely elegantly * made sure that the choice of language for documentation is respected With regard to the last: of course, if there is no translated version, then the English has to be used. Hence the mixture of bits and pieces. Until all the translators come back with the missing bits filled in, there is not much I can do. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Sun Mar 30 22:36:14 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] docs from Roma (was Re: Galway agenda) In-Reply-To: <47EEC871.4050803@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> <47EEC871.4050803@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Sebastian, Is a symptom of this namespace prefixes along the lines of "ns1" in the output? I've seen that in the past, but from a build of the HTML docs from Subversion sources on one of my machines that I chalked up to not having everything configured properly. On Sat, 29 Mar 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Stimulated by Syd, I looked at Roma today to see why > the HTML doc which it spits out looks different from that > produced on a command line with roma. It appears that > the XSL process run inside PHP does some odd stuff, > which confuses the DUMBCLUCKSTUPID web browser, > and so the display is not right. > > I am not sure if this is at the bottom of the problem, > but it gives me something to work on. > > I will hopefully get the language thing sorted at this > stage too. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 31 03:50:41 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:50:41 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] docs from Roma (was Re: Galway agenda) In-Reply-To: References: <200803271757.m2RHvq88003448@orion.services.brown.edu> <47EEC871.4050803@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47F097D1.1070702@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > > Is a symptom of this namespace prefixes along the lines of "ns1" in > the output? I've seen that in the past, but from a build of the HTML > docs from Subversion sources on one of my machines that I chalked up > to not having everything configured properly. > yes, it was a set of millions of namespace decls which seemed to throw the browser. what I did was change from method SaveHTML() to SaveXML() (since I am making XHTML) in PHP :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Mon Mar 31 05:04:24 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 10:04:24 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Proposed agenda item: Getting started using TEI document In-Reply-To: <47EF8710.90002@xs4all.nl> References: <47EF8710.90002@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <47F0A918.7020307@kcl.ac.uk> Hi Peter, I like this a lot and would volunteer to help you if the council is in favour. Best, Arianna Peter Boot wrote: > Hello all, > > Isn't it time for us to write a true 'getting started using TEI' > document? Currently we have a number of in some way introductory texts, > but most of them are not really for beginners. The 'Gentle introduction > to XML' provides good introductory reading, but is not a guide. The > Guidelines chapters 'TEI infrastructure'(ch. 1) and 'Using the TEI' (ch. > 23) are way beyond the innocent beginner, someone who is, let's say, > writing a thesis on a not very well known text and wants to publish that > text along with his thesis. The customisation page on the website is > also targeted at someone who is already well embarked as a TEI user. > > If the rest of the council thinks that would be useful, I'd be willing > to draft such a document, perhaps together with one or two other council > members. I'd expect such a document to be perhaps 15/20 pages long. > > A getting started document should include practical things such as the > question which editor to use and how to display the xml. The document > would assume a Windows platform, as that is what most prospective users > would be familiar with. The document would not be part of the Guidelines > (which should be platform and software agnostic), but would be part of > the website, perhaps the wiki. Wherever possible, the document would > refer to existing documents (such as Guidelines sections). > > What a getting started document might discuss is, among other things, > the following: > - Should you use TEI? > Should discuss: nature of material, desired result, competence > of encoder, available technical support, intellectual and > practical benefits, effort to be expected > - What you should know > Reference to gentle XML introduction > Even gentler intro into creating html from xml using xslt > (not discuss: pdf creation) > - Overall structure of a TEI text > header, text, body, div, head, p, lg, l > Reference to TEI lite chapters > - Choosing and installing an editor > (Limit discussion in doc to single editor?) > - Load, modify, validate a complete ready-made document > - Getting standard stylesheets to run > Installing XSLT processor > Downloading and customising stylesheets > Running stylesheets > - Getting this to work on sample of own text > Preparing text in XML vs. converting prepared text to XML > - Text modelling > Choosing elements and attributes > Extension: Modifying elements or creating new ones? > - Schema's > Defining a schema using Roma > Reference to 'Getting started with P5 ODDs' > Using the schema from within the editor > - Where to go from here > > Can we discuss this in Galway? > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Mar 31 05:15:37 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:15:37 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Proposed agenda item: Getting started using TEI document In-Reply-To: <47F0A918.7020307@kcl.ac.uk> References: <47EF8710.90002@xs4all.nl> <47F0A918.7020307@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5E25F16A-0D51-4D3D-8AFA-C2380F77AF7D@loria.fr> That would make a nice task force! Without anticipating on the council decision, let's put this on the agenda (Lou: can you update it accordingly?) Amicalement, Laurent Le 31 mars 08 ? 11:04, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > Hi Peter, > > I like this a lot and would volunteer to help you if the council is in > favour. > > Best, > Arianna > > Peter Boot wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> Isn't it time for us to write a true 'getting started using TEI' >> document? Currently we have a number of in some way introductory >> texts, >> but most of them are not really for beginners. The 'Gentle >> introduction >> to XML' provides good introductory reading, but is not a guide. The >> Guidelines chapters 'TEI infrastructure'(ch. 1) and 'Using the >> TEI' (ch. >> 23) are way beyond the innocent beginner, someone who is, let's say, >> writing a thesis on a not very well known text and wants to >> publish that >> text along with his thesis. The customisation page on the website is >> also targeted at someone who is already well embarked as a TEI user. >> >> If the rest of the council thinks that would be useful, I'd be >> willing >> to draft such a document, perhaps together with one or two other >> council >> members. I'd expect such a document to be perhaps 15/20 pages long. >> >> A getting started document should include practical things such as >> the >> question which editor to use and how to display the xml. The document >> would assume a Windows platform, as that is what most prospective >> users >> would be familiar with. The document would not be part of the >> Guidelines >> (which should be platform and software agnostic), but would be >> part of >> the website, perhaps the wiki. Wherever possible, the document would >> refer to existing documents (such as Guidelines sections). >> >> What a getting started document might discuss is, among other things, >> the following: >> - Should you use TEI? >> Should discuss: nature of material, desired result, competence >> of encoder, available technical support, intellectual and >> practical benefits, effort to be expected >> - What you should know >> Reference to gentle XML introduction >> Even gentler intro into creating html from xml using xslt >> (not discuss: pdf creation) >> - Overall structure of a TEI text >> header, text, body, div, head, p, lg, l >> Reference to TEI lite chapters >> - Choosing and installing an editor >> (Limit discussion in doc to single editor?) >> - Load, modify, validate a complete ready-made document >> - Getting standard stylesheets to run >> Installing XSLT processor >> Downloading and customising stylesheets >> Running stylesheets >> - Getting this to work on sample of own text >> Preparing text in XML vs. converting prepared text to XML >> - Text modelling >> Choosing elements and attributes >> Extension: Modifying elements or creating new ones? >> - Schema's >> Defining a schema using Roma >> Reference to 'Getting started with P5 ODDs' >> Using the schema from within the editor >> - Where to go from here >> >> Can we discuss this in Galway? >> >> Peter >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 31 07:58:37 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 12:58:37 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Proposed agenda item: Getting started using TEI document In-Reply-To: <5E25F16A-0D51-4D3D-8AFA-C2380F77AF7D@loria.fr> References: <47EF8710.90002@xs4all.nl> <47F0A918.7020307@kcl.ac.uk> <5E25F16A-0D51-4D3D-8AFA-C2380F77AF7D@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47F0D1ED.6010003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> OK, I have now updated the Agenda with this and a couple other suggestions. I leave for Galway tomorrow morning! I have also prepared a quick and rather dirty summary of the outstanding Feature Requests and Bugs listed on SourceForge. Please note that this is made entirely automatically, by extracting information from the SF database and munging it into HTML. One of the downsides of this process is that the formatting of the plain text descriptions gets lost. The upside is that consequently it uses significantly less paper when printed. It's at http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw11.html and linked from the Agenda. sliante! Laurent Romary wrote: > That would make a nice task force! Without anticipating on the > council decision, let's put this on the agenda (Lou: can you update > it accordingly?) > Amicalement, > Laurent > > Le 31 mars 08 ? 11:04, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > >> Hi Peter, >> >> I like this a lot and would volunteer to help you if the council is in >> favour. >> >> Best, >> Arianna >> >> Peter Boot wrote: >>> Hello all, >>> >>> Isn't it time for us to write a true 'getting started using TEI' >>> document? Currently we have a number of in some way introductory >>> texts, >>> but most of them are not really for beginners. The 'Gentle >>> introduction >>> to XML' provides good introductory reading, but is not a guide. The >>> Guidelines chapters 'TEI infrastructure'(ch. 1) and 'Using the >>> TEI' (ch. >>> 23) are way beyond the innocent beginner, someone who is, let's say, >>> writing a thesis on a not very well known text and wants to >>> publish that >>> text along with his thesis. The customisation page on the website is >>> also targeted at someone who is already well embarked as a TEI user. >>> >>> If the rest of the council thinks that would be useful, I'd be >>> willing >>> to draft such a document, perhaps together with one or two other >>> council >>> members. I'd expect such a document to be perhaps 15/20 pages long. >>> >>> A getting started document should include practical things such as >>> the >>> question which editor to use and how to display the xml. The document >>> would assume a Windows platform, as that is what most prospective >>> users >>> would be familiar with. The document would not be part of the >>> Guidelines >>> (which should be platform and software agnostic), but would be >>> part of >>> the website, perhaps the wiki. Wherever possible, the document would >>> refer to existing documents (such as Guidelines sections). >>> >>> What a getting started document might discuss is, among other things, >>> the following: >>> - Should you use TEI? >>> Should discuss: nature of material, desired result, competence >>> of encoder, available technical support, intellectual and >>> practical benefits, effort to be expected >>> - What you should know >>> Reference to gentle XML introduction >>> Even gentler intro into creating html from xml using xslt >>> (not discuss: pdf creation) >>> - Overall structure of a TEI text >>> header, text, body, div, head, p, lg, l >>> Reference to TEI lite chapters >>> - Choosing and installing an editor >>> (Limit discussion in doc to single editor?) >>> - Load, modify, validate a complete ready-made document >>> - Getting standard stylesheets to run >>> Installing XSLT processor >>> Downloading and customising stylesheets >>> Running stylesheets >>> - Getting this to work on sample of own text >>> Preparing text in XML vs. converting prepared text to XML >>> - Text modelling >>> Choosing elements and attributes >>> Extension: Modifying elements or creating new ones? >>> - Schema's >>> Defining a schema using Roma >>> Reference to 'Getting started with P5 ODDs' >>> Using the schema from within the editor >>> - Where to go from here >>> >>> Can we discuss this in Galway? >>> >>> Peter >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> -- >> Dr Arianna Ciula >> Research Associate >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 2nd Floor >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Mon Mar 31 09:49:50 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 09:49:50 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Proposed agenda item: Getting started using TEI document In-Reply-To: <47EF8710.90002@xs4all.nl> References: <47EF8710.90002@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <18416.60414.619901.924965@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > Isn't it time for us to write a true 'getting started using TEI' > document? If it isn't time to do so now, it's well past time :-) > I'd be willing to draft such a document, perhaps together with one > or two other council members. Again, I'm not a member of Council, but this is an important project, and I'm happy to contribute. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Apr 1 15:10:13 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 15:10:13 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] project Message-ID: <18418.34965.264528.197415@emt.wwp.brown.edu> I went through the Guidelines today routing out problematic instances of the element, much as I did for back on 2007-12-15. I found and fixed a few, but there weren't that many (in large part because I incidentally caught them back in Dec). One of the fixes was to the description of the grid box of :-) However, there was one that I am quite unsure about: * The section of the tagdoc (shows up as a "Note" box near the bottom of http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-gram.html) contains references to 2 non-existing attributes. I bet the whole should be ditched, but thought I'd leave this to someone who may have a clue what we're doing with terminological data. From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Apr 3 18:53:30 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2008 23:53:30 +0100 (IST) Subject: [tei-council] TEI Correspondence SIG proposal Message-ID: Attached. I had thought this went out to the full Council but see now that only Laurent and I have received it. Reference for the Friday agenda item. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager Electronic Imprint, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400318, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://www.ei.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 4 06:51:55 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:51:55 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] no examples Message-ID: <20080404105155.C4DEEB803A@webmail223.herald.ox.ac.uk> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080404/f21accfe/attachment.pl From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Apr 4 07:14:24 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2008 07:14:24 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Examples action assignments In-Reply-To: <20080404105155.C4DEEB803A@webmail223.herald.ox.ac.uk> References: <20080404105155.C4DEEB803A@webmail223.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Refer to Sebastian's list of elements without examples. Following assignments per module. Also, check the Notes while adding examples, to be sure they are consistent with the rest of the Guidelines: analysis: DO core: DS dictionaries: PS figures: JW gaiji: GB header: DO iso-fs: LR linking: GB msdescription: JC namedates:AC nets: LR spoken: PB tagdocs: TMB textcrit: EP textstructure: PB transcr: EP From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 5 10:52:29 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 15:52:29 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Examples action assignments In-Reply-To: References: <20080404105155.C4DEEB803A@webmail223.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47F7922D.2080308@oucs.ox.ac.uk> for this purpose, please now use the web page at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/noeg.html for the list of elements which have no example in the reference material. this will be updated automatically within 20 minutes of the source changing. the curious will find my "10 minute script" in the P5 source tree at Utilities/findemptyeg.xsl -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 5 13:04:03 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2008 18:04:03 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Correspondence SIG proposal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47F7B103.2020701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > Attached. I had thought this went out to the full Council but see now > that only Laurent and I have received it. Reference for the Friday > agenda item. I believe that the council list strips out attachments -- could you forward the text in the body of the message? -James > > David > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From dsewell at virginia.edu Sat Apr 5 15:16:20 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 20:16:20 +0100 (IST) Subject: [tei-council] TEI Correspondence SIG proposal In-Reply-To: <47F7B103.2020701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47F7B103.2020701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Lou has the PDF and was going to post it on the TEI website, but in the meantime I have put it up here: http://www.betwix.net/proposal_stadler_veit_2008_03.pdf On Sat, 5 Apr 2008, James Cummings wrote: > David Sewell wrote: >> Attached. I had thought this went out to the full Council but see now that >> only Laurent and I have received it. Reference for the Friday agenda item. > > I believe that the council list strips out attachments -- could you forward > the text in the body of the message? > > -James >> >> David >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager Electronic Imprint, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400318, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://www.ei.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 7 06:45:58 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:45:58 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Correspondence SIG proposal In-Reply-To: References: <47F7B103.2020701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47F9FB66.8030600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> It's now at http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw13.pdf Sorry for delay! OpenCMS fell over in a heap the first time I tried... David Sewell wrote: > Lou has the PDF and was going to post it on the TEI website, but in the > meantime I have put it up here: > > http://www.betwix.net/proposal_stadler_veit_2008_03.pdf > > On Sat, 5 Apr 2008, James Cummings wrote: > > >> David Sewell wrote: >> >>> Attached. I had thought this went out to the full Council but see now that >>> only Laurent and I have received it. Reference for the Friday agenda item. >>> >> I believe that the council list strips out attachments -- could you forward >> the text in the body of the message? >> >> -James >> >>> David >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >> >> > > From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 7 06:54:22 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 11:54:22 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Feature Request Review Outcomes online Message-ID: <47F9FD5E.4080800@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I've put up a document summarizing what I think we decided should be done for all the feature requests considered at the Galway meeting. In some cases, I have also done it. In others I haven't -- either because I was getting tired by the time I got to the end of the list or more usually because it's not 100% obvious what to do and someone had been volunteered to make it so. Please could Council members review the document http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw12.xml and (a) let me know immediately if I have misremembered or misrepresented the views of Council (b) if you were explicitly actioned to do something on a ticket, please do it by -- shall we say -- 14 April? (c) for tickets without explicit actions, please give your further input here by the same date? Thanks to all for a very good start to the new Council's term! Lou From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Apr 7 11:02:35 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 11:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway minutes Message-ID: Everyone, I will plan to start cleaning up my rough notes taken at our meeting starting tomorrow, with a view toward having them ready for feedback and correction by the end of the week, or sooner if possible. Laurent, let me know if you'd prefer that I share them with you first for individual feedback before distributing to everyone. I hope that those who were staying in Ireland to do a bit of extra touring had successful ventures! David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Apr 7 11:08:21 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 17:08:21 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Galway minutes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks David for the effort. You can send the draft directly to all, and I would suggest not to clutter the mailing list with surface correction and that only contreversial points be raised on the list. Laurent Le 7 avr. 08 ? 17:02, David Sewell a ?crit : > Everyone, > > I will plan to start cleaning up my rough notes taken at our meeting > starting tomorrow, with a view toward having them ready for > feedback and > correction by the end of the week, or sooner if possible. > > Laurent, let me know if you'd prefer that I share them with you first > for individual feedback before distributing to everyone. > > I hope that those who were staying in Ireland to do a bit of extra > touring had successful ventures! > > David > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Apr 7 12:16:18 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 18:16:18 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Feature Request Review Outcomes online In-Reply-To: <47F9FD5E.4080800@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47F9FD5E.4080800@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks for this very useful summary: I guess David can just point to it in his minutes. I have noticed that the last 4 pointers to sourceforge lead to an error. Laurent Le 7 avr. 08 ? 12:54, Lou Burnard a ?crit : > I've put up a document summarizing what I think we decided should be > done for all the feature requests considered at the Galway meeting. In > some cases, I have also done it. In others I haven't -- either > because I > was getting tired by the time I got to the end of the list or more > usually because it's not 100% obvious what to do and someone had been > volunteered to make it so. > > Please could Council members review the document > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw12.xml and > (a) let me know immediately if I have misremembered or misrepresented > the views of Council > (b) if you were explicitly actioned to do something on a ticket, > please > do it by -- shall we say -- 14 April? > (c) for tickets without explicit actions, please give your further > input > here by the same date? > > Thanks to all for a very good start to the new Council's term! > > Lou > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Apr 7 20:33:21 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:33:21 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Feature Request Review Outcomes online In-Reply-To: <47F9FD5E.4080800@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47F9FD5E.4080800@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1207614801.7984.61.camel@localhost> Some notes: * Is the issue with cit and said in this one something that was not considered but that needs to be looked at? permit model.quoteLike within &lt;sp&gt; Council agrees that this is a useful addition, but feels that should be available as well as and therefore recommends adding model.qLike instead. (This also makes and available, which seems a little odd.) [closed] * This one could be said to have different actions: on me and Sebastian to come up with use cases and sheets, and on PB to integrate any suggestions worthwhile into the guide he's been planning. Provide additional documentation on formatting a TEI document Council reviewed this document, but did not feel that its contents were appropriate as a chapter of the Guidelines. It was felt that many of the topics adressed would be usefully provided as a standalone tutorial guide of some sort, however. Action ? * Also in the following, the use of @lemma was to be deprecated, no? resolve @lemma datatype problem Council noted that the use of the @lemma attribute to hold textual data was inconsistent, but also recognised that this was a very common usage. The simplest solution appeared to be to change the datatype so as to permit spaces. Council also proposed adding a new @lemmaRef attribute to point to a definition of the lemma held elsewhere. This would provide a pair analogous to the @key @ref attributes on name etc. The child element solution would also require definition of some other child element to hold the non-lemmatised form. Changing @maxOccurs would introduce ambiguity. Some more prose is needed to introduce the new attribute within #AISP. [pending] On Mon, 2008-04-07 at 11:54 +0100, Lou Burnard wrote: > I've put up a document summarizing what I think we decided should be > done for all the feature requests considered at the Galway meeting. In > some cases, I have also done it. In others I haven't -- either because I > was getting tired by the time I got to the end of the list or more > usually because it's not 100% obvious what to do and someone had been > volunteered to make it so. > > Please could Council members review the document > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw12.xml and > (a) let me know immediately if I have misremembered or misrepresented > the views of Council > (b) if you were explicitly actioned to do something on a ticket, please > do it by -- shall we say -- 14 April? > (c) for tickets without explicit actions, please give your further input > here by the same date? > > Thanks to all for a very good start to the new Council's term! > > Lou > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor and Chair, Department of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair and CEO, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Canada Vox: +1 403 329-2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr 8 04:08:14 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:08:14 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: A<47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> This should have been submitted as a bug in Sourceforge. Since there are several possible quick fixes and it's not clear which to adopt, please could Council members to express a choice amongst the following: a) remove the possibility of saying "many" from the description. If people can't say how many hands there are, they should either not supply this attribute at all, or use some coded value like 999 to indicate that there is more than one b) redefine the datatype as data.word so that people can say hands="lots" or hands="plenty" or indeed hands="strawberryJam" c) invent a new datatype using a fiendishly ingenious pattern which matches either a string of digits or the string "many" but nothing else. Then we'll probably find other cases where we want to use it. I have a preference but I won't state it yet (hint: it's not (b)) Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Matthew James Driscoll wrote: >> According to the guidelines, the value of @hands on should >> be "A whole number, or the string "many"", but its data type is >> data.count and the string "many" produces an error message. > definitely an error in the spec which we should correct one way or > another. >> It is, however, absolutely necessary to be to be able to say that >> the number of hands is a unspecified but greater than 3-4-5, i.e. >> "many". What to do? >> > I fear I must defer to m'learned colleague with the gammy knee. I don't > see an obvious way out. > From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr 8 04:13:27 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:13:27 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Feature Request Review Outcomes online In-Reply-To: <1207614801.7984.61.camel@localhost> References: <47F9FD5E.4080800@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1207614801.7984.61.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <47FB2927.1000207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Dan O'Donnell wrote: > Some notes: > > * Is the issue with cit and said in this one something that was > not considered but that needs to be looked at? > permit model.quoteLike within &lt;sp&gt; Council > agrees that this is a useful addition, but feels that > should be available as well as and therefore > recommends adding model.qLike instead. (This also makes > and available, which seems a little odd.) > [closed] > It wasn't considered at the meeting, and I don't think it's a serious enough concern to warrant reopening the ticket, but I did think Council might want to consider some of the implications: in particular in future we might want to review the way the two classes (qLike and quoteLike) are defined, > * This one could be said to have different actions: on me and > Sebastian to come up with use cases and sheets, and on PB to > integrate any suggestions worthwhile into the guide he's been > planning. > Provide additional documentation on formatting a TEI > document Council reviewed this document, but did not > feel that its contents were appropriate as a chapter of > the Guidelines. It was felt that many of the topics > adressed would be usefully provided as a standalone > tutorial guide of some sort, however. Action ? > Thanks, have revised accordingly. The ticket remains open however. > * Also in the following, the use of @lemma was to be deprecated, > no? > resolve @lemma datatype problem Council noted that the > use of the @lemma attribute to hold textual data was > inconsistent, but also recognised that this was a very > common usage. The simplest solution appeared to be to > change the datatype so as to permit spaces. Council also > proposed adding a new @lemmaRef attribute to point to a > definition of the lemma held elsewhere. This would > provide a pair analogous to the @key @ref attributes on > name etc. The child element solution would also require > definition of some other child element to hold the > non-lemmatised form. Changing @maxOccurs would introduce > ambiguity. Some more prose is needed to introduce the > new attribute within #AISP. [pending] > > No, I don't recall a firm decision to deprecate the way @lemma is currently used -- deprecation means we are more or less committed to removing it at a future release. It was proposed, but I pointed out that several gazillion applications would immediately have to reinvent it, which seemed pointless, since for 99% of current use cases it posed no problems. The inconsistency should be noted however, and that should go into the revision of AISP. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr 8 04:20:55 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:20:55 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: A<47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FB2AE7.6030404@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou Burnard wrote: > > a) remove the possibility of saying "many" from the description. If > people can't say how many hands there are, they should either not > supply this attribute at all, or use some coded value like 999 to > indicate that there is more than one > b) redefine the datatype as data.word so that people can say > hands="lots" or hands="plenty" or indeed hands="strawberryJam" > c) invent a new datatype using a fiendishly ingenious pattern which > matches either a string of digits or the string "many" but nothing > else. Then we'll probably find other cases where we want to use it. a) the "999" solutions seems the worst; b) seems a bit retrograde; c) is I suppose acceptable, but I don't like the idea of hard-coding "many" in there (I18N etc). I'd almost rather allow "<" or ">" before the number. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Apr 8 04:55:03 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:55:03 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: A<47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FB32E7.9050900@kcl.ac.uk> Lou Burnard wrote: > a) remove the possibility of saying "many" from the description. If > people can't say how many hands there are, they should either not supply > this attribute at all, or use some coded value like 999 to indicate that > there is more than one This is not good. It doesn't fit the purpose of the hands description, since indeed you may not be able to identify different hands but want to record that there are different hands. > b) redefine the datatype as data.word so that people can say > hands="lots" or hands="plenty" or indeed hands="strawberryJam" No good either, because we find ourselves on the other side of the spectrum where it isn't possible to e precise if needed. > c) invent a new datatype using a fiendishly ingenious pattern which > matches either a string of digits or the string "many" but nothing else. > Then we'll probably find other cases where we want to use it. I lean towards this solution, but agree with Sebastian that hard coring 'many' may not be acceptable in all cases (e.g. is possibly between 3 and 4 hands many?). Arianna > > > I have a preference but I won't state it yet (hint: it's not (b)) > > > > Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> Matthew James Driscoll wrote: >>> According to the guidelines, the value of @hands on should >>> be "A whole number, or the string "many"", but its data type is >>> data.count and the string "many" produces an error message. >> definitely an error in the spec which we should correct one way or >> another. >>> It is, however, absolutely necessary to be to be able to say that >>> the number of hands is a unspecified but greater than 3-4-5, i.e. >>> "many". What to do? >>> >> I fear I must defer to m'learned colleague with the gammy knee. I don't >> see an obvious way out. >> > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr 8 05:04:28 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:04:28 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <47FB32E7.9050900@kcl.ac.uk> References: A<47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB32E7.9050900@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FB351C.3070407@oucs.ox.ac.uk> we could treat it like dates, and add @maxHands and @minHands alongside @hands, all integer. so you have to commit yourself to saying "at least 3" or "no more than 8", or "exactly 2". or copy dates even more, and have a pointer to a taxonomy with @handRange (comparable to @period). -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr 8 05:41:49 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:41:49 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <47FB351C.3070407@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: A<47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB32E7.9050900@kcl.ac.uk> <47FB351C.3070407@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FB3DDD.20102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > we could treat it like dates, and add @maxHands and @minHands alongside > @hands, all integer. so you have to commit yourself to saying "at least 3" > or "no more than 8", or "exactly 2". > > or copy dates even more, and have a pointer to a taxonomy with > @handRange (comparable to @period). > Isn't this the same problem that Gaby, PaulS and others were having with @extent and similar attributes? i.e. extent="1+" unit="words" for that there is 'at least one word missing' but unknown otherwise. If there was a @minExtent @maxExtent (or if in the presence of @maxExtent, @extent was treated like @minExtent) then that would solve their problem. If we are doing the same kind of thing for other elements, maybe we should just be having a class of @min and @max with relating to @unit on many different elements. So unit="hands" unit="minims" unit="folios". I realise the first of these is a very different type of unit, but we're still counting something, no? -james -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr 8 05:44:40 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:44:40 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <47FB3DDD.20102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: A<47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB32E7.9050900@kcl.ac.uk> <47FB351C.3070407@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB3DDD.20102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FB3E88.7010807@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > If we are doing the same kind of thing for other elements, maybe we should > just be having a class of @min and @max with relating to @unit on many > different elements. So unit="hands" unit="minims" unit="folios". I > realise the first of these is a very different type of unit, but we're > still counting something, no? > yes, I think we are on the same hymn sheet. the problems are similar, and should have orthoganal solutions. I am quite surprised we did not deal with this properly last year. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no Tue Apr 8 06:01:11 2008 From: tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no (Tone Merete Bruvik) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 12:01:11 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <47FB351C.3070407@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: A<47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB32E7.9050900@kcl.ac.uk> <47FB351C.3070407@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Is it an idea to use the newly suggested @precision attribute in this case as well? But then I guess that something like this looks a bit odd: ... Sebastian's suggestion to use "<" or ">", but the character "<" can not be used ( not well formed), but using "3+" as James suggests might work: Tone Merete Den 8. apr. 2008 kl. 11.04 skrev Sebastian Rahtz: > we could treat it like dates, and add @maxHands and @minHands > alongside > @hands, all integer. so you have to commit yourself to saying "at > least 3" > or "no more than 8", or "exactly 2". > > or copy dates even more, and have a pointer to a taxonomy with > @handRange (comparable to @period). > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr 8 06:04:09 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:04:09 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: References: A<47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB32E7.9050900@kcl.ac.uk> <47FB351C.3070407@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FB4319.2010703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Tone Merete Bruvik wrote: > Is it an idea to use the newly suggested @precision attribute in this > case as well? But then I guess that something like this looks a bit odd: > > ... > I don't think that really has the right semantics. It means "I think its 3 hands, but I am not very sure"; not the same as "many different hands". > > that would be OK, perhaps -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr 8 15:32:54 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 20:32:54 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903CC@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> References: A<47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903CC@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <47FBC866.4060700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Matthew James Driscoll wrote: > It doesn't have to be "many", that's just what the guidelines suggest (erroneously, as it happens); it could also be "various", which is very common in manuscript descriptions. Is there not some standard way of indicating "an indeterminate or unspecified number greater than one" > if anything other than a number means "various", why not just treat the absence of @hands as meaning "I dunno, quite a few, I can't tell"? but I think you need the facility to say "at least 3, maybe more". -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Apr 8 16:38:47 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:38:47 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Examples action assignments In-Reply-To: References: <20080404105155.C4DEEB803A@webmail223.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1207687127.2830.41.camel@odonned-eng06> The minutes aren't up yet, right? On Fri, 2008-04-04 at 07:14 -0400, David Sewell wrote: > Refer to Sebastian's list of elements without examples. Following > assignments per module. > > Also, check the Notes while adding examples, to be sure they are consistent > with the rest of the Guidelines: > > analysis: DO > core: DS > dictionaries: PS > figures: JW > gaiji: GB > header: DO > iso-fs: LR > linking: GB > msdescription: JC > namedates:AC > nets: LR > spoken: PB > tagdocs: TMB > textcrit: EP > textstructure: PB > transcr: EP > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr 8 17:09:06 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 22:09:06 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <47FBC866.4060700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: A<47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903CC@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FBC866.4060700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FBDEF2.3010607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Matthew James Driscoll wrote: >> It doesn't have to be "many", that's just what the guidelines suggest (erroneously, as it happens); it could also be "various", which is very common in manuscript descriptions. Is there not some standard way of indicating "an indeterminate or unspecified number greater than one" >> > if anything other than a number means "various", why not just treat the > absence of > @hands as meaning "I dunno, quite a few, I can't tell"? FWIW: I'd say an absence of @hands means there is one hand. > but I think you need the facility to say "at least 3, maybe more". And equally that there are less than 5, maybe less. And that there are somewhere between 3 and 8 but I'm not really sure how many in that range...but I know certainly there are at least 3 and certainly less than 8. ;-) -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From dsewell at virginia.edu Tue Apr 8 17:15:16 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2008 17:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Examples action assignments In-Reply-To: <1207687127.2830.41.camel@odonned-eng06> References: <20080404105155.C4DEEB803A@webmail223.herald.ox.ac.uk> <1207687127.2830.41.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: No, I'll be starting on them tonight. On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Dan O'Donnell wrote: > The minutes aren't up yet, right? > > > On Fri, 2008-04-04 at 07:14 -0400, David Sewell wrote: > > Refer to Sebastian's list of elements without examples. Following > > assignments per module. > > > > Also, check the Notes while adding examples, to be sure they are consistent > > with the rest of the Guidelines: > > > > analysis: DO > > core: DS > > dictionaries: PS > > figures: JW > > gaiji: GB > > header: DO > > iso-fs: LR > > linking: GB > > msdescription: JC > > namedates:AC > > nets: LR > > spoken: PB > > tagdocs: TMB > > textcrit: EP > > textstructure: PB > > transcr: EP > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Apr 8 17:32:58 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:32:58 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Examples action assignments In-Reply-To: References: <20080404105155.C4DEEB803A@webmail223.herald.ox.ac.uk> <1207687127.2830.41.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <1207690378.4242.0.camel@odonned-eng06> Sorry, I didn't mean that as a complaint: I was just afraid I'd missed a link! On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 17:15 -0400, David Sewell wrote: > No, I'll be starting on them tonight. > > On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Dan O'Donnell wrote: > > > The minutes aren't up yet, right? > > > > > > On Fri, 2008-04-04 at 07:14 -0400, David Sewell wrote: > > > Refer to Sebastian's list of elements without examples. Following > > > assignments per module. > > > > > > Also, check the Notes while adding examples, to be sure they are consistent > > > with the rest of the Guidelines: > > > > > > analysis: DO > > > core: DS > > > dictionaries: PS > > > figures: JW > > > gaiji: GB > > > header: DO > > > iso-fs: LR > > > linking: GB > > > msdescription: JC > > > namedates:AC > > > nets: LR > > > spoken: PB > > > tagdocs: TMB > > > textcrit: EP > > > textstructure: PB > > > transcr: EP > > > _______________________________________________ > > > tei-council mailing list > > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Apr 9 06:35:38 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 11:35:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <47FBDEF2.3010607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: A<47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903CC@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FBC866.4060700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FBDEF2.3010607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FC9BFA.7010500@kcl.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> Matthew James Driscoll wrote: >>> It doesn't have to be "many", that's just what the guidelines suggest (erroneously, as it happens); it could also be "various", which is very common in manuscript descriptions. Is there not some standard way of indicating "an indeterminate or unspecified number greater than one" I agree with Matthew that 'various' is what you normally find in manuscript catalogues, but, again, we can't force the use of this string as value. And I agree with James that absence of @hands can't mean necessarily 'various'. Arianna -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Apr 9 07:33:23 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 07:33:23 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <47FC9BFA.7010500@kcl.ac.uk> References: <47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903CC@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FBC866.4060700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FBDEF2.3010607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FC9BFA.7010500@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18428.43395.304461.655803@emt.wwp.brown.edu> TMB> ... SR> I don't think that really has the right semantics. It means "I SR> think its 3 hands, but I am not very sure"; not the same as "many SR> different hands". I don't think so -- what SR is describing is accuracy=low. This is even a bit worse. I'm kind of fond of the "3+" solution, although the parallelism of minHands= and maxHands= isn't lost on me, either. But to throw another approach into the pile, why not: ... an indeterminate or unspecified number greater than one From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 9 12:31:07 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 17:31:07 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <18428.43395.304461.655803@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903CC@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FBC866.4060700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FBDEF2.3010607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FC9BFA.7010500@kcl.ac.uk> <18428.43395.304461.655803@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47FCEF4B.1030106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > I'm kind of fond of the "3+" solution, although the parallelism of > minHands= and maxHands= isn't lost on me, either. But to throw another > approach into the pile, why not: > > > ... > > > > > > References: <47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903CC@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FBC866.4060700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FBDEF2.3010607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FC9BFA.7010500@kcl.ac.uk> <18428.43395.304461.655803@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47FCEF4B.1030106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18428.62426.192865.101569@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > Pragmatically, the quickest solution, I agree. It's a slight pain > for implementors, if anyone ever writes a system which lets you say > "show me all MSS with 3 or more hands", of course. More than a slight pain if you are trying to extract MSS from across multiple collections that use different TEI customizations -- makes it almost impossible. But if what you are doing is trying to extract MSS from your own collection (or any set of collections over which you have control of the TEI customization used), you just need to design an intelligent enumeration to make this work quite well. And this is true for so many TEI features, I don't think adding one more should bother us. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 9 12:53:58 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 17:53:58 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <18428.62426.192865.101569@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903CC@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FBC866.4060700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FBDEF2.3010607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FC9BFA.7010500@kcl.ac.uk> <18428.43395.304461.655803@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47FCEF4B.1030106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18428.62426.192865.101569@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47FCF4A6.70300@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > More than a slight pain if you are trying to extract MSS from across > multiple collections that use different TEI customizations -- makes > it almost impossible. well, you have to analyze the base schema and work out the range of data you might get. I agree, this covers up a giant can of worms. > And this is true for so many TEI features, I don't think adding one > more should bother us. > true the correct strategy is perhaps to design software which processes XML corresponding to an instantiated schema, not just "TEI". -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Apr 10 16:03:35 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 14:03:35 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] editors@tei-c.org Message-ID: <1207857815.6882.6.camel@odonned-eng06> Is this address being sent to anybody? -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Apr 10 16:34:47 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:34:47 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] editors@tei-c.org In-Reply-To: <1207857815.6882.6.camel@odonned-eng06> References: <1207857815.6882.6.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <18430.31207.914337.994798@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > Is this address being sent to anybody? Unless D. Pitti has changed it, it is still going to me & Lou. From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Apr 10 17:29:45 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:29:45 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] editors@tei-c.org In-Reply-To: <18430.31207.914337.994798@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <1207857815.6882.6.camel@odonned-eng06> <18430.31207.914337.994798@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <47FE86C9.9010403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: >> Is this address being sent to anybody? > > Unless D. Pitti has changed it, it is still going to me & Lou. Email it and see who answers? ;-) -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Apr 10 21:09:48 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:09:48 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] editors@tei-c.org In-Reply-To: <47FE86C9.9010403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <1207857815.6882.6.camel@odonned-eng06> <18430.31207.914337.994798@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47FE86C9.9010403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1207876188.6611.0.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2008-04-10 at 22:29 +0100, James Cummings wrote: > Syd Bauman wrote: > >> Is this address being sent to anybody? > > > > Unless D. Pitti has changed it, it is still going to me & Lou. > > Email it and see who answers? ;-) But not getting something back from an email address doesn't mean it doesn't go anywhere. They might think you are spam. > > -James > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor and Chair, Department of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair and CEO, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Canada Vox: +1 403 329-2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Apr 10 23:00:20 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] hands= In-Reply-To: <18428.43395.304461.655803@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <47F9272C.6010004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903C9@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FAA79F.8050601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FB27EE.1090703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <857A4D84DE6D1D41837DD9284F2729AB037903CC@exchangesrv1.hum2005.hum.ku.dk> <47FBC866.4060700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FBDEF2.3010607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FC9BFA.7010500@kcl.ac.uk> <18428.43395.304461.655803@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: Closed value list based on Troll numeral system. Problem solved. ... (ref. Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" series. Sorry, couldn't help it.) On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Syd Bauman wrote: > I'm kind of fond of the "3+" solution, although the parallelism of > minHands= and maxHands= isn't lost on me, either. But to throw another > approach into the pile, why not: > > > ... > > > > > > > > > an indeterminate or unspecified number greater than > one > > > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu Apr 10 18:49:12 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel BODARD) Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:49:12 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Calendar Message-ID: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> BTW: as we were discussing the need for a TEI calendar at the meeting last week, I went ahead and created the page http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Calendar on the wiki, entering as a start the two events that were being discussed at the time. However I failed to mention this to anyone, and it occurs to me that if this is to be of any use we all need to know about it. ;-) (Happy for this to be deleted and/or moved if someone has come up with a better place or mechanism for this calendar.) Cheers, G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 05:50:45 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:50:45 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists Message-ID: <47FF3475.9030501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> starting to do action about better lists of datatypes and attributes etc, can I ask you to look at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-data.pointer.html and comment? it looks like a dogs dinner. any suggestions for a layout? list of all attributes is still to come -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Apr 11 06:02:42 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:02:42 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: <47FF3475.9030501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47FF3475.9030501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <434798D1-4B81-4777-BF95-192A2616A725@loria.fr> That's exactly the direction to follow. I am myself very bad at presentation things. But I can already see the usefulness of it. Would it make sense to have too views in the "used by" (one after the other or toggling), that is: - like is now, sorted by elements - the other way round, sorted by attributes, with the list of corresponding attributes behind (e.g. @value[eLeaf, eTree, iNode, node, etc.]) Le 11 avr. 08 ? 11:50, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > starting to do action about better lists of datatypes and attributes > etc, can I ask you to look at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref- > data.pointer.html > and comment? it looks like a dogs dinner. any suggestions for a > layout? > > list of all attributes is still to come > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 06:05:10 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:05:10 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: <434798D1-4B81-4777-BF95-192A2616A725@loria.fr> References: <47FF3475.9030501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <434798D1-4B81-4777-BF95-192A2616A725@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47FF37D6.40306@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > That's exactly the direction to follow. I am myself very bad at > presentation things. But I can already see the usefulness of it. > > Would it make sense to have too views in the "used by" (one after the > other or toggling), that is: > - like is now, sorted by elements > - the other way round, sorted by attributes, with the list of > corresponding attributes behind (e.g. @value[eLeaf, eTree, iNode, > node, etc.]) > we don't present two views elsewhere, so possibly will confuse people. But I see what you mean. If I had to choose, I think I'd prefer your view to be the default. Of course, when we have the alphabetical attribute list, you'll get something similar there. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 06:07:29 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:07:29 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: <434798D1-4B81-4777-BF95-192A2616A725@loria.fr> References: <47FF3475.9030501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <434798D1-4B81-4777-BF95-192A2616A725@loria.fr> Message-ID: <47FF3861.5020005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I wondered whether the class names should be followed by the lists of class members, as elsewhere? Laurent's suggestuion would save space, at the risk of offending purists like me who think that the attribute @foo on element x is a different thing from the attribute @foo on the element y Laurent Romary wrote: > That's exactly the direction to follow. I am myself very bad at > presentation things. But I can already see the usefulness of it. > > Would it make sense to have too views in the "used by" (one after the > other or toggling), that is: > - like is now, sorted by elements > - the other way round, sorted by attributes, with the list of > corresponding attributes behind (e.g. @value[eLeaf, eTree, iNode, > node, etc.]) > > Le 11 avr. 08 ? 11:50, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > >> starting to do action about better lists of datatypes and attributes >> etc, can I ask you to look at >> http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref- >> data.pointer.html >> and comment? it looks like a dogs dinner. any suggestions for a >> layout? >> >> list of all attributes is still to come >> >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Apr 11 06:11:40 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:11:40 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: <47FF37D6.40306@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47FF3475.9030501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <434798D1-4B81-4777-BF95-192A2616A725@loria.fr> <47FF37D6.40306@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Then make a try with both views and we will see if it really hinder the legebility. What would the others think? Le 11 avr. 08 ? 12:05, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Laurent Romary wrote: >> That's exactly the direction to follow. I am myself very bad at >> presentation things. But I can already see the usefulness of it. >> >> Would it make sense to have too views in the "used by" (one after >> the other or toggling), that is: >> - like is now, sorted by elements >> - the other way round, sorted by attributes, with the list of >> corresponding attributes behind (e.g. @value[eLeaf, eTree, iNode, >> node, etc.]) >> > we don't present two views elsewhere, so possibly will confuse > people. But > I see what you mean. If I had to choose, I think I'd prefer your > view to be the default. > > Of course, when we have the alphabetical attribute list, you'll get > something > similar there. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University > Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Apr 11 06:13:57 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:13:57 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: <47FF3861.5020005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47FF3475.9030501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <434798D1-4B81-4777-BF95-192A2616A725@loria.fr> <47FF3861.5020005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Le 11 avr. 08 ? 12:07, Lou Burnard a ?crit : > I wondered whether the class names should be followed by the lists > of class members, as elsewhere? Yes. Sure. > > Laurent's suggestuion would save space, at the risk of offending > purists like me who think that the attribute @foo on element x is a > different thing from the attribute @foo on the element y I thought exactly the same, but in our case, we show that there is some coherence in the datatype attribution, and more generally that we do not allocate attribute at random, but that we have some kind of logics (even if, yes, there may be some variations in deep semantics) > > > Laurent Romary wrote: >> That's exactly the direction to follow. I am myself very bad at >> presentation things. But I can already see the usefulness of it. >> Would it make sense to have too views in the "used by" (one after >> the other or toggling), that is: >> - like is now, sorted by elements >> - the other way round, sorted by attributes, with the list of >> corresponding attributes behind (e.g. @value[eLeaf, eTree, iNode, >> node, etc.]) >> Le 11 avr. 08 ? 11:50, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : >>> starting to do action about better lists of datatypes and attributes >>> etc, can I ask you to look at >>> http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref- >>> data.pointer.html >>> and comment? it looks like a dogs dinner. any suggestions for a >>> layout? >>> >>> list of all attributes is still to come >>> >>> -- >>> Sebastian Rahtz >>> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Apr 11 06:15:47 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:15:47 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Calendar In-Reply-To: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: Unless there was something similar already existing, I am just happy with the initiative. Laurent Le 11 avr. 08 ? 00:49, Gabriel BODARD a ?crit : > BTW: as we were discussing the need for a TEI calendar at the meeting > last week, I went ahead and created the page > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Calendar on the wiki, entering > as a > start the two events that were being discussed at the time. However I > failed to mention this to anyone, and it occurs to me that if this > is to > be of any use we all need to know about it. ;-) > > (Happy for this to be deleted and/or moved if someone has come up > with a > better place or mechanism for this calendar.) > > Cheers, > > G > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) > > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > > Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 06:22:04 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:22:04 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: <47FF3861.5020005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47FF3475.9030501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <434798D1-4B81-4777-BF95-192A2616A725@loria.fr> <47FF3861.5020005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FF3BCC.8060706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou Burnard wrote: > I wondered whether the class names should be followed by the lists of > class members, as elsewhere? aaargh. ok. > > Laurent's suggestuion would save space, at the risk of offending > purists like me who think that the attribute @foo on element x is a > different thing from the attribute @foo on the element y oooh controversial.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Apr 11 06:27:37 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:27:37 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: <47FF3BCC.8060706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47FF3475.9030501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <434798D1-4B81-4777-BF95-192A2616A725@loria.fr> <47FF3861.5020005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FF3BCC.8060706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Maybe we could put a warning notice... Le 11 avr. 08 ? 12:22, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Lou Burnard wrote: >> I wondered whether the class names should be followed by the lists >> of class members, as elsewhere? > aaargh. ok. >> >> Laurent's suggestuion would save space, at the risk of offending >> purists like me who think that the attribute @foo on element x is >> a different thing from the attribute @foo on the element y > oooh controversial.... > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University > Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 11 07:22:51 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 13:22:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists Message-ID: <22011.194.171.119.28.1207912971.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > starting to do action about better lists of datatypes and attributes > etc, can I ask you to look at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-data.pointer.html > and comment? it looks like a dogs dinner. any suggestions for a layout? It would help (though not much, perhaps) to divide the list in two, one for the classes and one for the elements: classes: att.ascribed/@who att.damaged/@hand att.datable.w3c/@period att.declaring/@decls .... elements: alt/@targets app/@from app/@to arc/@from arc/@to ... It would avoid mixing the colours. I'm not sure the readibility wouldn't be adversely affected by expanding the class names with their member elements. Peter From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 07:25:01 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 12:25:01 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: <22011.194.171.119.28.1207912971.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <22011.194.171.119.28.1207912971.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <47FF4A8D.90200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Peter Boot wrote: > > It would help (though not much, perhaps) to divide the list in two, one > for the classes and one for the elements: > > classes: att.ascribed/@who att.damaged/@hand att.datable.w3c/@period > att.declaring/@decls .... > elements: alt/@targets app/@from app/@to arc/@from arc/@to ... > > It would avoid mixing the colours. > true. that's a quick win. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 09:08:32 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:08:32 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Calendar In-Reply-To: References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FF62D0.8060602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Unless there was something similar already existing, I am just happy > with the initiative. > Laurent The wiki already had a Current_events page, which is also linked to on the left-hand navigation panel. We can either change the navigation panel to point to the Calendar page, or we can move the content from the Calendar page to the Current_events page. I don't mind which... but someone will need to tell me (or another admin) if you want us to change the navigation menu. best, -James > > Le 11 avr. 08 ? 00:49, Gabriel BODARD a ?crit : > >> BTW: as we were discussing the need for a TEI calendar at the meeting >> last week, I went ahead and created the page >> http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Calendar on the wiki, entering >> as a >> start the two events that were being discussed at the time. However I >> failed to mention this to anyone, and it occurs to me that if this >> is to >> be of any use we all need to know about it. ;-) >> >> (Happy for this to be deleted and/or moved if someone has come up >> with a >> better place or mechanism for this calendar.) >> >> Cheers, >> >> G >> >> -- >> Dr Gabriel BODARD >> (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) >> >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL >> >> Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk >> Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 >> Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 >> >> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ >> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 09:36:59 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 14:36:59 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: <47FF4A8D.90200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <22011.194.171.119.28.1207912971.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <47FF4A8D.90200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FF697B.6020707@kcl.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Peter Boot wrote: >> It would help (though not much, perhaps) to divide the list in two, one >> for the classes and one for the elements: >> >> classes: att.ascribed/@who att.damaged/@hand att.datable.w3c/@period >> att.declaring/@decls .... >> elements: alt/@targets app/@from app/@to arc/@from arc/@to ... >> >> It would avoid mixing the colours. >> > true. that's a quick win. I agree with Peter. Also -hope you are not going to kill me- to improve readability would id be possible to have columns within the 'Used by' box? e.g. Used by alt/@targets att.global/@select socecStatus/@scheme app/@from [...] [...] [...] [...] [...] besides, I would list all the attributes within a class rather than repeating the class e.g. att.global.linking/@corresp- at synch-@sameAs ... About the element names after the classes...in a way I'd like to see them, but yes, it may become too much: could there be the possibility to hide/view elements? Arianna -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Apr 11 09:57:49 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 15:57:49 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Calendar In-Reply-To: <47FF62D0.8060602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> <47FF62D0.8060602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5C24193A-C268-4030-B02D-1BDB5B6A3620@loria.fr> Gabriel: would you be ready to merge? Le 11 avr. 08 ? 15:08, James Cummings a ?crit : > Laurent Romary wrote: >> Unless there was something similar already existing, I am just >> happy with the initiative. >> Laurent > > The wiki already had a Current_events page, which is also linked to > on the left-hand navigation panel. We can either change the > navigation panel to point to the Calendar page, or we can move the > content from the Calendar page to the Current_events page. > > I don't mind which... but someone will need to tell me (or another > admin) if you want us to change the navigation menu. > > best, > > -James > >> Le 11 avr. 08 ? 00:49, Gabriel BODARD a ?crit : >>> BTW: as we were discussing the need for a TEI calendar at the >>> meeting >>> last week, I went ahead and created the page >>> http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Calendar on the wiki, >>> entering as a >>> start the two events that were being discussed at the time. >>> However I >>> failed to mention this to anyone, and it occurs to me that if >>> this is to >>> be of any use we all need to know about it. ;-) >>> >>> (Happy for this to be deleted and/or moved if someone has come >>> up with a >>> better place or mechanism for this calendar.) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> G >>> >>> -- >>> Dr Gabriel BODARD >>> (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) >>> >>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >>> King's College London >>> 26-29 Drury Lane >>> London WC2B 5RL >>> >>> Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk >>> Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 >>> Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 >>> >>> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ >>> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > -- > Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford > James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Apr 11 10:34:15 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:34:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] TEI Calendar In-Reply-To: <47FF62D0.8060602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> <47FF62D0.8060602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: If I remember correctly, the issue with the TEI calendar at the meeting was a request that it be a link from the home page on www.tei-c.org. Currently the "News" link points to a static page. We could change that link to point to the Wiki calendar page, but there are a couple of problems: 1) all other sidebar links point to static pages on the website, rather than to anything in the wiki; 2) once you're inside http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/, the "home page" shifts to the TEI Wiki home page (i.e., clicking on the graphic does not take you back to the TEI home page). The only way to get back to the TEI home is clicking the small navigation link "TEI website". So there is the potential for users to get a bit lost in navigating between TEI Wiki and TEI static website. James, is it possible to customize the wiki
containing the logo in order to add another icon with a link? If so, we could perhaps add a TEIWiki logo of some sort, make that link to the Wiki main page, and then have the logo link to the TEI website home. David On Fri, 11 Apr 2008, James Cummings wrote: > Laurent Romary wrote: > > Unless there was something similar already existing, I am just happy > > with the initiative. > > Laurent > > The wiki already had a Current_events page, which is also linked to on > the left-hand navigation panel. We can either change the navigation > panel to point to the Calendar page, or we can move the content from the > Calendar page to the Current_events page. > > I don't mind which... but someone will need to tell me (or another > admin) if you want us to change the navigation menu. > > best, > > -James > > > > > Le 11 avr. 08 ? 00:49, Gabriel BODARD a ?crit : > > > >> BTW: as we were discussing the need for a TEI calendar at the meeting > >> last week, I went ahead and created the page > >> http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Calendar on the wiki, entering > >> as a > >> start the two events that were being discussed at the time. However I > >> failed to mention this to anyone, and it occurs to me that if this > >> is to > >> be of any use we all need to know about it. ;-) > >> > >> (Happy for this to be deleted and/or moved if someone has come up > >> with a > >> better place or mechanism for this calendar.) > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> G > >> > >> -- > >> Dr Gabriel BODARD > >> (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) > >> > >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities > >> King's College London > >> 26-29 Drury Lane > >> London WC2B 5RL > >> > >> Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > >> Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > >> Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 > >> > >> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > >> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tei-council mailing list > >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Fri Apr 11 10:43:10 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 08:43:10 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Calendar In-Reply-To: References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> <47FF62D0.8060602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1207924990.17046.16.camel@localhost> I've raised the related issues regarding this with the board. And the question of the location of the listserv addresses has also just come up. So I think you'll find that this is an area that sees improvement soon. But please let's keep looking for things we can improve! -dan On Fri, 2008-04-11 at 10:34 -0400, David Sewell wrote: > If I remember correctly, the issue with the TEI calendar at the meeting > was a request that it be a link from the home page on www.tei-c.org. > Currently the "News" link points to a static page. > > We could change that link to point to the Wiki calendar page, but there > are a couple of problems: > > 1) all other sidebar links point to static pages on the website, rather > than to anything in the wiki; > > 2) once you're inside http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/, the "home page" shifts > to the TEI Wiki home page (i.e., clicking on the graphic does not > take you back to the TEI home page). The only way to get back to the TEI > home is clicking the small navigation link "TEI website". > > So there is the potential for users to get a bit lost in navigating > between TEI Wiki and TEI static website. > > James, is it possible to customize the wiki
containing the > logo in order to add another icon with a link? If so, we could perhaps > add a TEIWiki logo of some sort, make that link to the Wiki main page, > and then have the logo link to the TEI website home. > > David > > On Fri, 11 Apr 2008, James Cummings wrote: > > > Laurent Romary wrote: > > > Unless there was something similar already existing, I am just happy > > > with the initiative. > > > Laurent > > > > The wiki already had a Current_events page, which is also linked to on > > the left-hand navigation panel. We can either change the navigation > > panel to point to the Calendar page, or we can move the content from the > > Calendar page to the Current_events page. > > > > I don't mind which... but someone will need to tell me (or another > > admin) if you want us to change the navigation menu. > > > > best, > > > > -James > > > > > > > > Le 11 avr. 08 ? 00:49, Gabriel BODARD a ?crit : > > > > > >> BTW: as we were discussing the need for a TEI calendar at the meeting > > >> last week, I went ahead and created the page > > >> http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Calendar on the wiki, entering > > >> as a > > >> start the two events that were being discussed at the time. However I > > >> failed to mention this to anyone, and it occurs to me that if this > > >> is to > > >> be of any use we all need to know about it. ;-) > > >> > > >> (Happy for this to be deleted and/or moved if someone has come up > > >> with a > > >> better place or mechanism for this calendar.) > > >> > > >> Cheers, > > >> > > >> G > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Dr Gabriel BODARD > > >> (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) > > >> > > >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities > > >> King's College London > > >> 26-29 Drury Lane > > >> London WC2B 5RL > > >> > > >> Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > > >> Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > > >> Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 > > >> > > >> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > > >> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> tei-council mailing list > > >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > tei-council mailing list > > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > > > > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Apr 11 11:12:49 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: <47FF697B.6020707@kcl.ac.uk> References: <22011.194.171.119.28.1207912971.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <47FF4A8D.90200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FF697B.6020707@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: For what it's worth, here's a version using an internal table to format the "Used by" links. Alphabetization is by row; doing it by column would be trickier. It is more readable. On Fri, 11 Apr 2008, Arianna Ciula wrote: > > > Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > Peter Boot wrote: > >> It would help (though not much, perhaps) to divide the list in two, one > >> for the classes and one for the elements: > >> > >> classes: att.ascribed/@who att.damaged/@hand att.datable.w3c/@period > >> att.declaring/@decls .... > >> elements: alt/@targets app/@from app/@to arc/@from arc/@to ... > >> > >> It would avoid mixing the colours. > >> > > true. that's a quick win. > > I agree with Peter. Also -hope you are not going to kill me- to improve > readability would id be possible to have columns within the 'Used by' box? > > e.g. > > Used by alt/@targets att.global/@select socecStatus/@scheme > app/@from [...] [...] > [...] [...] [...] > > besides, I would list all the attributes within a class rather than > repeating the class e.g. att.global.linking/@corresp- at synch-@sameAs ... > > About the element names after the classes...in a way I'd like to see > them, but yes, it may become too much: could there be the possibility to > hide/view elements? > > Arianna > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Apr 11 11:13:55 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:13:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Sorry, here's the URL for the tabular version: Message-ID: http://lister.ei.virginia.edu/ref-data.pointer3.html -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Apr 11 11:31:24 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 11:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting minutes Message-ID: Everyone, I'm still working on transforming my notes into XML minutes but as I haven't had much time for it during the work week, I'll need the weekend to finish. In the meantime, if anyone would like to consult the raw text notes let me know. (They are pretty raw, however.) David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 12:20:58 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:20:58 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Calendar In-Reply-To: References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> <47FF62D0.8060602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FF8FEA.3090805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > 1) all other sidebar links point to static pages on the website, rather > than to anything in the wiki; Whether changing this policy is desirable I leave to the TEI Web Committee. > 2) once you're inside http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/, the "home page" shifts > to the TEI Wiki home page (i.e., clicking on the graphic does not > take you back to the TEI home page). The only way to get back to the TEI > home is clicking the small navigation link "TEI website". We can reset the 'Main Page' to point to TEI home page, and or rename/change/reorder any of the bits of text in that navigation box. I've also been planning to set some time aside at some point to have a go at customising the TEI Wiki CSS to make it look more like the TEI Website. (maybe we can just point some of it to the TEI's CSS). But I believe we could change where you go when you click the TEI logo, but to be consistent, it would be good if on the TEI website itself, clicking the TEI logo took you to the TEI home page. > So there is the potential for users to get a bit lost in navigating > between TEI Wiki and TEI static website. > > James, is it possible to customize the wiki
containing the > logo in order to add another icon with a link? If so, we could perhaps > add a TEIWiki logo of some sort, make that link to the Wiki main page, > and then have the logo link to the TEI website home. Maybe just some styled text underneath that says 'Wiki' so if you click on the logo you go to the TEI home page, but if you click on 'Wiki' you go to the wiki main page? All sounds possible, but I've not actually tried yet. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Fri Apr 11 12:27:08 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:27:08 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Calendar In-Reply-To: <47FF8FEA.3090805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> <47FF62D0.8060602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FF8FEA.3090805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1207931228.7107.6.camel@localhost> Inneresting. We should be compiling a list of these points. On Fri, 2008-04-11 at 17:20 +0100, James Cummings wrote: > David Sewell wrote: > > 1) all other sidebar links point to static pages on the website, rather > > than to anything in the wiki; > > Whether changing this policy is desirable I leave to the TEI Web Committee. > > > 2) once you're inside http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/, the "home page" shifts > > to the TEI Wiki home page (i.e., clicking on the graphic does not > > take you back to the TEI home page). The only way to get back to the TEI > > home is clicking the small navigation link "TEI website". > > We can reset the 'Main Page' to point to TEI home page, and or > rename/change/reorder any of the bits of text in that navigation box. > > I've also been planning to set some time aside at some point to have a > go at customising the TEI Wiki CSS to make it look more like the TEI > Website. (maybe we can just point some of it to the TEI's CSS). > > But I believe we could change where you go when you click the TEI logo, > but to be consistent, it would be good if on the TEI website itself, > clicking the TEI logo took you to the TEI home page. > > > So there is the potential for users to get a bit lost in navigating > > between TEI Wiki and TEI static website. > > > > James, is it possible to customize the wiki
containing the > > logo in order to add another icon with a link? If so, we could perhaps > > add a TEIWiki logo of some sort, make that link to the Wiki main page, > > and then have the logo link to the TEI website home. > > Maybe just some styled text underneath that says 'Wiki' so if you click > on the logo you go to the TEI home page, but if you click on > 'Wiki' you go to the wiki main page? > > All sounds possible, but I've not actually tried yet. > > -James > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor and Chair, Department of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair and CEO, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Canada Vox: +1 403 329-2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 12:29:47 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:29:47 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: References: <22011.194.171.119.28.1207912971.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <47FF4A8D.90200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FF697B.6020707@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FF91FB.3090907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > For what it's worth, here's a version using an internal table to format > the "Used by" links. thanks, I will try to do some stealing. please leave the URL up for a bit, this will take me a few weeks > Alphabetization is by row; doing it by column would > be trickier. > thats a fairly serious issue, actually. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Apr 11 12:33:51 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 17:33:51 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: <47FF697B.6020707@kcl.ac.uk> References: <22011.194.171.119.28.1207912971.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <47FF4A8D.90200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FF697B.6020707@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <47FF92EF.1000505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I'm kind of wishing I had not asked :-} Anyway, I am on holiday now for a week, after which there are some panics, so don't expect a new version until early May. But now I have got some feedback from the council, I feel much more confident. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Fri Apr 11 12:37:28 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 10:37:28 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: <47FF92EF.1000505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <22011.194.171.119.28.1207912971.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <47FF4A8D.90200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <47FF697B.6020707@kcl.ac.uk> <47FF92EF.1000505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1207931848.7107.16.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2008-04-11 at 17:33 +0100, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'm kind of wishing I had not asked :-} Ask and ye shall receive--or thou in this case. > > Anyway, I am on holiday now for a week, after which > there are some panics, so don't expect a new > version until early May. But now I have got some > feedback from the council, I feel much more confident. > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor and Chair, Department of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair and CEO, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Canada Vox: +1 403 329-2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Apr 11 14:04:54 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 20:04:54 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Calendar In-Reply-To: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <0BE465FD-49B3-4D47-98B9-5101FB86B154@loria.fr> On a more organisational issue, and independantly of the way we implement the calendar on the TEI Wike+webpage: Gabriel, what you want to keep track of the calendar for the council? Thanks ;-) Laurent PS: If yes, David could record this in the minutes... Le 11 avr. 08 ? 00:49, Gabriel BODARD a ?crit : > BTW: as we were discussing the need for a TEI calendar at the meeting > last week, I went ahead and created the page > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Calendar on the wiki, entering > as a > start the two events that were being discussed at the time. However I > failed to mention this to anyone, and it occurs to me that if this > is to > be of any use we all need to know about it. ;-) > > (Happy for this to be deleted and/or moved if someone has come up > with a > better place or mechanism for this calendar.) > > Cheers, > > G > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) > > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > > Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sat Apr 12 12:56:37 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel BODARD) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:56:37 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Calendar In-Reply-To: <0BE465FD-49B3-4D47-98B9-5101FB86B154@loria.fr> References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> <0BE465FD-49B3-4D47-98B9-5101FB86B154@loria.fr> Message-ID: <4800E9C5.2000601@kcl.ac.uk> Sure. I mean, it's a wiki, so everyone ought to be able to add their own events (and I was hoping that someone from Oxford would add info or at least a link to the Summer School). But if anyone sends me info I'll be happy to upload it, and try to keep an eye on the page to move past events into the appropriate place, etc. G Laurent Romary a ?crit : > On a more organisational issue, and independantly of the way we > implement the calendar on the TEI Wike+webpage: Gabriel, what you want > to keep track of the calendar for the council? > Thanks ;-) > Laurent > PS: If yes, David could record this in the minutes... > > Le 11 avr. 08 ? 00:49, Gabriel BODARD a ?crit : > >> BTW: as we were discussing the need for a TEI calendar at the meeting >> last week, I went ahead and created the page >> http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Calendar on the wiki, entering as a >> start the two events that were being discussed at the time. However I >> failed to mention this to anyone, and it occurs to me that if this is to >> be of any use we all need to know about it. ;-) >> >> (Happy for this to be deleted and/or moved if someone has come up with a >> better place or mechanism for this calendar.) >> >> Cheers, >> >> G >> >> -- >> Dr Gabriel BODARD >> (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) >> >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL >> >> Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk >> Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 >> Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 >> >> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ >> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Apr 12 16:04:58 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:04:58 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Calendar In-Reply-To: <4800E9C5.2000601@kcl.ac.uk> References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> <0BE465FD-49B3-4D47-98B9-5101FB86B154@loria.fr> <4800E9C5.2000601@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <480115EA.9010907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Gabriel BODARD wrote: > Sure. > > I mean, it's a wiki, so everyone ought to be able to add their own > events (and I was hoping that someone from Oxford would add info or at > least a link to the Summer School). We will do as soon as a few things are finalised, I'm sure. > But if anyone sends me info I'll be > happy to upload it, and try to keep an eye on the page to move past > events into the appropriate place, etc. I think the remembering to move past events on is what people who are happy to post their own events will forget to do. -James > > G > > Laurent Romary a ?crit : >> On a more organisational issue, and independantly of the way we >> implement the calendar on the TEI Wike+webpage: Gabriel, what you want >> to keep track of the calendar for the council? >> Thanks ;-) >> Laurent >> PS: If yes, David could record this in the minutes... >> >> Le 11 avr. 08 ? 00:49, Gabriel BODARD a ?crit : >> >>> BTW: as we were discussing the need for a TEI calendar at the meeting >>> last week, I went ahead and created the page >>> http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Calendar on the wiki, entering as a >>> start the two events that were being discussed at the time. However I >>> failed to mention this to anyone, and it occurs to me that if this is to >>> be of any use we all need to know about it. ;-) >>> >>> (Happy for this to be deleted and/or moved if someone has come up with a >>> better place or mechanism for this calendar.) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> G >>> >>> -- >>> Dr Gabriel BODARD >>> (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) >>> >>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >>> King's College London >>> 26-29 Drury Lane >>> London WC2B 5RL >>> >>> Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk >>> Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 >>> Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 >>> >>> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ >>> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From pfs-listmail at umich.edu Mon Apr 14 11:53:26 2008 From: pfs-listmail at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 11:53:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway reimbursement In-Reply-To: <480115EA.9010907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> <0BE465FD-49B3-4D47-98B9-5101FB86B154@loria.fr> <4800E9C5.2000601@kcl.ac.uk> <480115EA.9010907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Am I right in supposing that the the travel-expenses form here: http://www.tei-c.org/Admin/TEI_travel_form.pdf is still to be used, and its instructions followed? (e.g., it should be sent to UVa?) pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 14 11:55:15 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 16:55:15 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway reimbursement In-Reply-To: References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> <0BE465FD-49B3-4D47-98B9-5101FB86B154@loria.fr> <4800E9C5.2000601@kcl.ac.uk> <480115EA.9010907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48037E63.90808@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Paul F. Schaffner wrote: > Am I right in supposing that the the travel-expenses form > here: > > http://www.tei-c.org/Admin/TEI_travel_form.pdf > > is still to be used, and its instructions followed? (e.g., it > should be sent to UVa?) > Yes, I think so. (and shouldnt that be an i.e.?) From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Apr 14 12:17:58 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway reimbursement In-Reply-To: References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> <0BE465FD-49B3-4D47-98B9-5101FB86B154@loria.fr> <4800E9C5.2000601@kcl.ac.uk> <480115EA.9010907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Yes, and if you have any questions about documentation or policies the person to ask is Daniel Pitti, dvp4c at virginia.edu. On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Paul F. Schaffner wrote: > Am I right in supposing that the the travel-expenses form > here: > > http://www.tei-c.org/Admin/TEI_travel_form.pdf > > is still to be used, and its instructions followed? (e.g., it > should be sent to UVa?) > > pfs > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ > 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From pfs-listmail at umich.edu Mon Apr 14 17:35:59 2008 From: pfs-listmail at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 17:35:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Some photos In-Reply-To: <47FE86C9.9010403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <1207857815.6882.6.camel@odonned-eng06> <18430.31207.914337.994798@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <47FE86C9.9010403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Galway City and Connemara: http://flickr.com/photos/9795979 at N06/sets/72157604536900790/show/ TEI Council mtg: http://flickr.com/photos/9795979 at N06/sets/72157604537149308/show/ pfs -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Apr 14 19:55:17 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 17:55:17 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Galway reimbursement In-Reply-To: References: <47FE9968.3010105@kcl.ac.uk> <0BE465FD-49B3-4D47-98B9-5101FB86B154@loria.fr> <4800E9C5.2000601@kcl.ac.uk> <480115EA.9010907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1208217317.6423.2.camel@localhost> To save Daniel's time, let me add that nothing has changed. There has been some discussion at the board of going to a per diem rather than receipts, but nobody would be given that retroactively and the issue is not as simple given the nature of our membership and travel as it looks. -dan On Mon, 2008-04-14 at 12:17 -0400, David Sewell wrote: > Yes, and if you have any questions about documentation or policies the > person to ask is Daniel Pitti, dvp4c at virginia.edu. > > On Mon, 14 Apr 2008, Paul F. Schaffner wrote: > > > Am I right in supposing that the the travel-expenses form > > here: > > > > http://www.tei-c.org/Admin/TEI_travel_form.pdf > > > > is still to be used, and its instructions followed? (e.g., it > > should be sent to UVa?) > > > > pfs > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ > > 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor and Chair, Department of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair and CEO, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Canada Vox: +1 403 329-2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 From dsewell at virginia.edu Tue Apr 15 21:46:48 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 21:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Copyright and fair use in Guidelines quotations Message-ID: I'm turning to my Sourgeforge ticket item on creating an example of using to mark change of speaker. As I indicated in Galway, the "Conversation with Death" made popular by the film "O Brother Where Art Thou?" offers a perfect example in its opening stanza: Oh what is this I cannot see With icy hands gets a hold on me Oh I am Death, none can excel I open the doors of heaven and hell where the first two lines in the are spoken by the dying man, the second two by Death. I had assumed this was an old ballad in the public domain. Turns out, oddly enough, there is strong evidence it was written by a North Carolina preacher in 1916, and a transcription of it in a recent Journal of Folkore Research issue bears a copyright line, "Copyright ? 2003 by Estate of Lloyd Chandler". Whether or not the copyright would stand up in court (if the lyrics were ever published without copyright notice before 1977, it is in the public domain under US law), what's the policy on quoting in the Guidelines from a text claimed to be under copyright? Using those four lines as an example would be protected under "fair use" in US law, but is it best to avoid a quotation like this? I can substitute lines from a similar broadsheet ballad if need be: http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/14980/transcript/1 Advice? -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Apr 18 09:21:21 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 09:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting minutes, completed draft Message-ID: [My apologies--I thought I had sent this Sunday, but it was in my Drafts folder until Lou gently nudged me.] Please see http://lister.ei.virginia.edu/galway-minutes.xml (raw) http://lister.ei.virginia.edu/galway-minutes.html (formatted) Lou or anyone else, if you have a chance could you put the XML in a temporary location on www.tei-c.org to see how it formats against the stylesheet there, as the default oXygen styling is rather different? Please search for '??' to find places where I have a query or am missing something, and search for your initials to see what I have attributed to you. Let me know if you remember things differently or what to correct/expand. John W., if we covered TEI-METS, which was on the initial agenda, it is absolutely missing from my notes... I know there was some shifting of agenda items around that point. If someone can fill the lacuna (or explain it away), I'll appreciate it, David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Sun Apr 20 01:39:04 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 07:39:04 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: [tei-board] TEI session at DH 2008 (Oulu) References: <480A28F9.5060304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <93C6E546-D0D4-4B84-852E-E0AE5E525611@loria.fr> Dear all, Since I am not all sure that this message went through, I am forwarding it to the council. You can answer Susan directly. Best, Laurent D?but du message r?exp?di? : > De : Susan Schreibman > Date : 19 avril 2008 19:16:41 HAEC > ? : tei board , TEI Council > > Objet : [tei-board] TEI session at DH 2008 (Oulu) > R?pondre ? : susan.schreibman at gmail.com, tei- > board at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > Dear Board and Council members, > > I thought I had sent an email to the Board and Council lists, but the > lack of response makes me think that it never went through or I only > dreamed of sending the email! > > We have very generously been given a slot at Digital Humanities > 2008 by > the conference organizers and they have asked us to provide them > with an > abstract ASAP. We can fill this slot however we think fit -- three > papers, five or six micropapers, or a panel discussion. If you plan on > attending DH this year drop me a note so we can figure out how to best > fill the slot. It may be a good opportunity to acquaint the wider DH > community with changes in P5. > > many thanks > > susan > > -- > Susan Schreibman, PhD > Director > Digital Humanities Observatory > Pembroke House > 28?32 Upper Pembroke Street > Dublin 2, Ireland > > -- A Project of the Royal Irish Academy -- > > > Phone: +353 1 234 2440 > Fax: +353 1 234 2588 > Email: susan.schreibman at gmail.com > > http://dho.ie > http://irith.org > http://macgreevy.org > http://v-machine.org > > _______________________________________________ > tei-board mailing list > tei-board at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-board From laurent.romary at loria.fr Sun Apr 20 05:42:06 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 11:42:06 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Copyright and fair use in Guidelines quotations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D08CB46-3AF1-401C-A2CD-F8E7B56B88D3@loria.fr> Hi David, I would definitely use the example, but associating it with the information you give in your message: - probable source in 1916 - "claimed" copyright by.... Laurent Le 16 avr. 08 ? 03:46, David Sewell a ?crit : > I'm turning to my Sourgeforge ticket item on creating an example of > using to mark change of speaker. As I indicated in > Galway, the "Conversation with Death" made popular by the film "O > Brother Where Art Thou?" offers a perfect example in its opening > stanza: > > Oh what is this I cannot see > With icy hands gets a hold on me > Oh I am Death, none can excel > I open the doors of heaven and hell > > where the first two lines in the are spoken by the dying man, > the second two by Death. > > I had assumed this was an old ballad in the public domain. Turns out, > oddly enough, there is strong evidence it was written by a North > Carolina preacher in 1916, and a transcription of it in a recent > Journal > of Folkore Research issue bears a copyright line, "Copyright ? 2003 by > Estate of Lloyd Chandler". Whether or not the copyright would stand up > in court (if the lyrics were ever published without copyright notice > before 1977, it is in the public domain under US law), what's the > policy > on quoting in the Guidelines from a text claimed to be under > copyright? > Using those four lines as an example would be protected under "fair > use" > in US law, but is it best to avoid a quotation like this? > > I can substitute lines from a similar broadsheet ballad if need be: > > http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/14980/transcript/1 > > Advice? > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 20 08:52:49 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:52:49 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Copyright and fair use in Guidelines quotations In-Reply-To: <4D08CB46-3AF1-401C-A2CD-F8E7B56B88D3@loria.fr> References: <4D08CB46-3AF1-401C-A2CD-F8E7B56B88D3@loria.fr> Message-ID: <480B3CA1.8010307@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Hi David, > I would definitely use the example, but associating it with the > information you give in your message: > - probable source in 1916 > - "claimed" copyright by.... > If I were a lawyer, I would say that putting this in implies that you tacitly accept the claim. I'd use another example. Does the Erl King fit the bill? /"Mein Vater, mein Vater, und siehst du nicht dort/ /Erlk?nigs T?chter am d?stern Ort?"/ /"Mein Sohn, mein Sohn, ich seh es genau:/ /Es scheinen die alten Weiden so grau."/ -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 20 08:56:45 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:56:45 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting minutes, completed draft In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <480B3D8D.5080100@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Just to note that Lou and I had the same status at the meeting, viz invited to attend by Laurent for transition purposes; and we remain on this list to let us do the editorial assistance duties. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Sun Apr 20 09:30:03 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 09:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Copyright and fair use in Guidelines quotations In-Reply-To: <480B3CA1.8010307@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4D08CB46-3AF1-401C-A2CD-F8E7B56B88D3@loria.fr> <480B3CA1.8010307@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: I've already added the example using the four lines to CO, after passing it by Lou, with a citation in BIB to the Journal of Folklore Research source but no reference to copyright status. I think that should be okay; that issue of JFR makes it clear that variant forms of the ballad have been recorded and published widely since the 1920s. On Sun, 20 Apr 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Laurent Romary wrote: >> Hi David, >> I would definitely use the example, but associating it with the >> information you give in your message: >> - probable source in 1916 >> - "claimed" copyright by.... >> > If I were a lawyer, I would say that putting this in > implies that you tacitly accept the claim. > > I'd use another example. Does the Erl King > fit the bill? > > /"Mein Vater, mein Vater, und siehst du nicht dort/ > /Erlk?nigs T?chter am d?stern Ort?"/ > /"Mein Sohn, mein Sohn, ich seh es genau:/ > /Es scheinen die alten Weiden so grau."/ > > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 20 13:31:08 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:31:08 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting minutes, completed draft In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <480B7DDC.8020206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > > Please see > > http://lister.ei.virginia.edu/galway-minutes.xml (raw) > > http://lister.ei.virginia.edu/galway-minutes.html (formatted) > > Lou or anyone else, if you have a chance could you put the XML in a > temporary location on www.tei-c.org to see how it formats against the > stylesheet there, as the default oXygen styling is rather different? > All places on www.tei-c.org are temporary... anyway, it's now uploaded to http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcw38.xml Apologies for delay but (a) I bin on the road (b) I still fondly imagine that maintaining the TEI website isn't my job. It seems really really silly that the TEI Council's secretary has to use his own private website rather than the site provided for the purpose of holding the Council's records. The record of Council's business should be open and available to read as soon as that business is transacted, in the place where people expect to find it. It doesn't have to be perfectly crafted prose, it doesn't have to look beautiful, and it doesn't have to be approved by anyone (except the Council, of course). From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 20 13:33:52 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 18:33:52 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting minutes, completed draft In-Reply-To: <480B7DDC.8020206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <480B7DDC.8020206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <480B7E80.6090205@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou Burnard wrote: > > All places on www.tei-c.org are temporary... anyway, it's now uploaded to > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcw38.xml > > o rats, make that http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm38.xml From dsewell at virginia.edu Sun Apr 20 16:18:44 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 16:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting minutes, completed draft In-Reply-To: <480B3D8D.5080100@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <480B3D8D.5080100@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: I made the distinction I did in the participants' list because you are listed as the nonelected Board representative on this list: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/ Is that still the case, or does that list need to be changed? On Sun, 20 Apr 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Just to note that Lou and I had the same status at the meeting, viz > invited to attend by Laurent for transition purposes; and we remain > on this list to let us do the editorial assistance duties. > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Apr 20 16:24:00 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2008 21:24:00 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting minutes, completed draft In-Reply-To: References: <480B3D8D.5080100@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <480BA660.1020506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > I made the distinction I did in the participants' list because you are > listed as the nonelected Board representative on this list: > > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/ > > Is that still the case, or does that list need to be changed? The list should be changed. I _was_ the Board rep, but we decided to replace me with Laurent, to allow him to be eligible to chair the council. As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods; they kill us for their sport -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Apr 21 16:43:05 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 16:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting minutes, completed draft In-Reply-To: <480BA660.1020506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <480B3D8D.5080100@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <480BA660.1020506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: As of today I've got an account on OpenCMS, so I've made this change and updated the Galway minutes with changes I've received so far. On Sun, 20 Apr 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > David Sewell wrote: > > I made the distinction I did in the participants' list because you are > > listed as the nonelected Board representative on this list: > > > > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/ > > > > Is that still the case, or does that list need to be changed? > The list should be changed. I _was_ the Board rep, but we > decided to replace me with Laurent, to allow him to be > eligible to chair the council. As flies to wanton boys > are we to the gods; they kill us for their sport > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Apr 21 16:46:38 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2008 21:46:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Galway meeting minutes, completed draft In-Reply-To: References: <480B3D8D.5080100@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <480BA660.1020506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <480CFD2E.6010707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Excellent. It just goes to show, if you want to get things done in this country you have to complain till you're blue in the mouth. David Sewell wrote: > As of today I've got an account on OpenCMS, so I've made this change and > updated the Galway minutes with changes I've received so far. > > On Sun, 20 Apr 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > >> David Sewell wrote: >> >>> I made the distinction I did in the participants' list because you are >>> listed as the nonelected Board representative on this list: >>> >>> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/ >>> >>> Is that still the case, or does that list need to be changed? >>> >> The list should be changed. I _was_ the Board rep, but we >> decided to replace me with Laurent, to allow him to be >> eligible to chair the council. As flies to wanton boys >> are we to the gods; they kill us for their sport >> >> >> > > From pboot at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 22 15:36:37 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 21:36:37 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started Message-ID: <480E3E45.3070902@xs4all.nl> Hi all, I hope to get started on the getting started document after a week's holiday. But meanwhile I wanted to point you to a weblog I stumbled upon, titled 'Donna Jan does TEI. Learning the Text Encoding Initiative, whether I like it or not'. The posting at http://reluctantcoder.typepad.com/donnajan/2008/03/after-the-sts-c.html gives a wry description of the difficult situation of people interested in TEI but unacquainted with XML technology. Best, Peter From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr 22 15:43:47 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:43:47 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <480E3E45.3070902@xs4all.nl> References: <480E3E45.3070902@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <480E3FF3.6020206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Peter Boot wrote: > upon, titled 'Donna Jan does TEI. Learning the Text Encoding Initiative, > whether I like it or not'. The posting at > http://reluctantcoder.typepad.com/donnajan/2008/03/after-the-sts-c.html > gives a wry description of the difficult situation of people interested > in TEI but unacquainted with XML technology. > Looking at some of her other posts, she seems to have done pretty well in the last month. Getting to grips with some good stuff. And now she has started, she seems to find the Guidelines useable. So its true that the "getting started" guide is what we need. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Apr 22 16:20:43 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:20:43 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <480E3FF3.6020206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <480E3E45.3070902@xs4all.nl> <480E3FF3.6020206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <101C58DF-E5BB-474F-8EFA-C4DECB18D847@loria.fr> Yeap. And I fell like being on the starting blocks for the getting started work.... I would definitely recomend to council members to have a look at the blog to get a grasp on our potential users' difficulty. Le 22 avr. 08 ? 21:43, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Peter Boot wrote: >> upon, titled 'Donna Jan does TEI. Learning the Text Encoding >> Initiative, >> whether I like it or not'. The posting at >> http://reluctantcoder.typepad.com/donnajan/2008/03/after-the-sts- >> c.html >> gives a wry description of the difficult situation of people >> interested >> in TEI but unacquainted with XML technology. >> > Looking at some of her other posts, she seems to > have done pretty well in the last month. Getting > to grips with some good stuff. And now she has > started, she seems to find the Guidelines useable. > > So its true that the "getting started" guide is > what we need. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Apr 29 19:41:02 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 00:41:02 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] homework from Galway Message-ID: <4817B20E.7040708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Many thanks to Gabby, Arianna, and Eleanor whose suggested examples have now all been included in the Guidelines sources. If anyone else has sent me examples already, or is planning to do so, please send them again, as I don't seem to have received any from anyone else... gentle hint... Lou From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Apr 30 01:51:21 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 07:51:21 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] homework from Galway In-Reply-To: <4817B20E.7040708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4817B20E.7040708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1209534681.481808d93703a@www.loria.fr> I nearly send this the day after we got the minutes from the council meeting: you really have lost my message ? Laurent Selon Lou Burnard : > Many thanks to Gabby, Arianna, and Eleanor whose suggested examples have > now all been included in the Guidelines sources. > > If anyone else has sent me examples already, or is planning to do so, > please send them again, as I don't seem to have received any from anyone > else... gentle hint... > > Lou > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Apr 30 03:48:48 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 08:48:48 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] homework from Galway In-Reply-To: <1209534681.481808d93703a@www.loria.fr> References: <4817B20E.7040708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1209534681.481808d93703a@www.loria.fr> Message-ID: <48182460.1010900@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Apologies Laurent -- I did get this one, but it was buried in my inbox. Thanks -- I will deal with it later today (after breakfast) Anyone else not feeling guilty? L Laurent Romary wrote: > I nearly send this the day after we got the minutes from the council meeting: > you really have lost my message ? > Laurent > > Selon Lou Burnard : > > >> Many thanks to Gabby, Arianna, and Eleanor whose suggested examples have >> now all been included in the Guidelines sources. >> >> If anyone else has sent me examples already, or is planning to do so, >> please send them again, as I don't seem to have received any from anyone >> else... gentle hint... >> >> Lou >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> > > > > From elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk Wed Apr 30 04:36:29 2008 From: elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk (Elena Pierazzo) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 09:36:29 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] homework from Galway In-Reply-To: <4817B20E.7040708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4817B20E.7040708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48182F8D.802@kcl.ac.uk> > Many thanks to Gabby, Arianna, and Eleanor > Elena, please... -- Dr Elena Pierazzo Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Apr 30 05:17:15 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:17:15 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] homework from Galway In-Reply-To: <4817B20E.7040708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4817B20E.7040708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4818391B.40707@kcl.ac.uk> If you (new member of the council) are wandering where to see these additions beyond the source in SVN, an output of the updated guidelines before public release is available at: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ Arianna Lou Burnard wrote: > Many thanks to Gabby, Arianna, and Eleanor whose suggested examples have > now all been included in the Guidelines sources. > > If anyone else has sent me examples already, or is planning to do so, > please send them again, as I don't seem to have received any from anyone > else... gentle hint... > > Lou > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu May 1 11:05:55 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 11:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines confusion over damage/unclear? Message-ID: In coming up with an example of for the ref page, I noticed that the Guidelines and the reference page for offer somewhat contradictory advice. In 11.5.1, "Damage, Illegibility, and Supplied Text" http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/PH.html#PHDA where a passage from the Elder Edda is used as an example, this advice is given about using within : If it is desired to supply more information about the kind of damage, it is also possible to nest an element within the element: um aldr d aga yndisniota However, itself can take @agent, and in the reference section http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-unclear.html @agent is indicated for "Where the difficulty in transcription arises from damage, categorizes the cause of the damage, if it can be identified", with sample values of "rubbing", "mildew", and "smoke". Which suggests that this tagging of the Guidelines example would do just as well: um aldr daga yndisniota with no tag needed. Is this just a case of "there's more than one way to do it", or should the Guidelines language at 11.5.1 be revised? David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu May 1 12:52:37 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 17:52:37 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] galway homework Message-ID: <4819F555.2000303@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David is the most recent council member to turn in his homework from Galway, and so all core tags now have nice examples. Biggin it up for Dr Sewell, one time. I'm still hoping for more ... From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu May 1 13:01:36 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 18:01:36 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines confusion over damage/unclear? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4819F770.4010606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I'd say the language could certainly be clarified. I think the reasoning is that there might be more than one element within the area of damage. Suppose, for example, there is a smoke damaged part within which two stretches can be read (more or less) and a third which can't: you'd want to mark that the proof of this is margin I'd sort of assume that the @agent information here was inherited in this case, but we should probably formalise this (i.e. say so in the prose, as you suggest) other views? David Sewell wrote: > In coming up with an example of for the ref page, I noticed > that the Guidelines and the reference page for offer somewhat > contradictory advice. > > In 11.5.1, "Damage, Illegibility, and Supplied Text" > > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/PH.html#PHDA > > where a passage from the Elder Edda is used as an example, this advice > is given about using within : > > If it is desired to supply more information about the kind of damage, it > is also possible to nest an element within the > element: > um aldr d > aga > yndisniota > > However, itself can take @agent, and in the reference section > > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-unclear.html > > @agent is indicated for "Where the difficulty in transcription arises > from damage, categorizes the cause of the damage, if it can be > identified", with sample values of "rubbing", "mildew", and "smoke". > > Which suggests that this tagging of the Guidelines example would do > just as well: > > um aldr daga > yndisniota > > with no tag needed. > > Is this just a case of "there's more than one way to do it", or should > the Guidelines language at 11.5.1 be revised? > > David > From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu May 1 17:09:00 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 1 May 2008 17:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Case study of the desperate need for our Getting Started document Message-ID: Appended below is a lovely example of how easy it is to get into very deep water when you are trying to figure out how to adapt the TEI to your purposes by diving right into the "Using the TEI" chapter of the P5 Guidelines. This is a first attempt at a TEI schema customization by someone who has years of experience as a scholarly editor, but who is new to XML and TEI. As I reconstruct things, he 1. used oXygen to select "New - XML Schema", obtaining a template XML file starting with the root element; 2. used the discussion of in chapter 23 to fairly accurately add references to the modules he wanted to include; 3. attempted to extend the schema by putting in a mix of RELAX NG (compact syntax) element definitions and what are meant to be references to attributes or attribute classes. The result is total chaos that is nevertheless completely understandable as an attempt to "use the TEI" with the documentation and tools he had at hand. Perhaps we could best conceptualize "Getting Started" as our attempt to insure that this will never happen to anyone again? David ========================== MSTranscription_p = element manuscript transcription { heading_p, RevRegion_p+ } RevRegion_p = element revision region { heading_p, (RevSite_p | RevSeq_p | RevNarr_p )+ } heading_p = element heading { text } RevSite_p = element revision site { xml:id, RevText_p } RevText_p = element revision text { att.inscription, Firstext_p, Nextext_p, Deletext_p, Insertext_p, Resultext_p } att.inscription Deletext_p = element deleted text { att.status, att.delemark, text } att.status att.delemark Insertext_p = element inserted text { att.insertmark, att.insertpos, text } att.insertmark att.insertpos Firstext_p = element first text { text, Deletext_p } Nextext_p = element next text { text } -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri May 2 07:40:54 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 12:40:54 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] eppur si muove Message-ID: <481AFDC6.5010602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> ... many thanks to Tone Merete for handing in her homework today! who's going to be next? From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri May 16 03:49:10 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 09:49:10 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: TEI-L Digest - 13 May 2008 to 14 May 2008 (#2008-106) References: <21dd99490805152102p32425e40q3d89d152528404a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <39221B28-6B76-45D8-85F5-36FB6AFFD305@loria.fr> Hi Council! The message below (and my personal attempts to find a solution) seem to show that the Names and Dates chapter does not provide the means to do such things as recording, in a structured way, the locations where a person has been. Events and States are limited to a prose like content model and it would be probably nice to have something better then to represent such links. Anyone with an opinion on this? Cheers, Laurent D?but du message r?exp?di? : > De : Marcus Bingenheimer > Date : 16 mai 2008 06:02:54 HAEC > ? : TEI-L at listserv.brown.edu > Objet : R?p : TEI-L Digest - 13 May 2008 to 14 May 2008 (#2008-106) > R?pondre ? : Marcus Bingenheimer > > Dear ODD aficionados, > > Text & Markup: > For one project we mark up names of person persName>s and places and time. Below the text proper we create > link groups that record where a person was at a certain time in a > certain place. > > > > > > > Problem: > In DTD times the ID-IDREF(S) mechanism allowed us to verify if > there was indeed a ID for each IDREF. Now the datatype of TARGETS > is set to data.pointer which in turn is "anyURI" (that is also why > all targets start with a "#" I guess). How can I verify the URI is > there? Is this possible at all? > Question: > What do I have to write in my ODD to get a schema that checks > if the URIs referenced in TARGETS do indeed appear in the text above? > > Thanks for helping > > marcus > > > -- > ============================ > Dr. Marcus Bingenheimer ??? > Director, Library and Information Center ??????? > Dharma Drum Buddhist College ???????? (DDBC) > No. 2-6 Xishihu, Jinshan 20842, Taipei County, Taiwan, R.O.C. > ???20842?????????2-6? Tel: > +886-2-2498-7171 # 2381 > http://buddhistinformatics.ddbc.edu.tw/~mb/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri May 16 19:09:59 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 00:09:59 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 1: P5 11.1] Message-ID: <482E1447.20005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Murray McGillivray Subject: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 1: P5 11.1 Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 15:33:15 -0600 Size: 7449 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080517/a4a62115/attachment.eml From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Mon May 19 05:17:40 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 10:17:40 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 1: P5 11.1] In-Reply-To: <482E1447.20005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <482E1447.20005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <483145B4.7050901@kcl.ac.uk> I think these are all very good points, but I also think that -as Murray implies- the one below is probably the first thing that needs to be talcked: > This system seems easy to reconcile with the facsimile-focussed > description of book structure (using leaves and gatherings, etc.) we had > been working on in the previous PB draft, and in fact the one somewhat > glaring flaw in the system (one it shares with various book-facsimile > systems that are around, of course) is that it turns the document being > represented into a series of graphics files without an inherent > mechanism other than sequence (though users could define their own) for > indicating the structural relationships between the graphics (for > example that one is the other side of another > because they're different sides of the same page). And that's exactly > what our work can contribute to this model. So, does this mean that the PB group will start working on the description of these structural relationships and what would be the best way to express them in TEI? Arianna -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu May 22 17:54:48 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 22:54:48 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Re: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 1: P5 11.1] Message-ID: <4835EBA8.80604@oucs.ox.ac.uk> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Julia Flanders Subject: Re: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 1: P5 11.1 Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 12:02:13 -0400 Size: 9299 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080522/00598ce3/attachment.eml From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat May 24 06:04:43 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 11:04:43 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 1: P5 11.2 - 11.5] Message-ID: <4837E83B.1070105@oucs.ox.ac.uk> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Murray McGillivray Subject: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 1: P5 11.2 - 11.5 Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 15:52:02 -0600 Size: 6605 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080524/b7ef1955/attachment.eml From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun May 25 10:58:36 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 15:58:36 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Re: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 1: P5 11.2 - 11.5] Message-ID: <48397E9C.4020509@oucs.ox.ac.uk> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Dot Porter Subject: Re: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 1: P5 11.2 - 11.5 Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 16:36:12 -0500 Size: 6165 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080525/47b41b6a/attachment.eml From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun May 25 12:41:13 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 25 May 2008 17:41:13 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] P5 1.0.2 is just around the corner... Message-ID: <483996A9.6080909@oucs.ox.ac.uk> At the Galway meeting, we agreed a number of changes to P5, some but not all of which are already completed and will therefore appear in the next minor release, which is due to happen in a week's time (give or take..) I am hoping to get at least some of the uncompleted ones done later this week (assuming there are a few quiet moments at LREC), as well as distilling recent discussion on the lists into feature requests where possible. This is therefore perhaps an opportune moment to request all council members to take a quick look at (a) outstanding feature requests https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=644065&group_id=106328&func=browse and comment on any requests on which you think action is both feasible and desirable for this upcoming release and (b) actions agreed in Galway a http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw12.xml and comment on actions as yet incomplete but which etc. Thanks in advance... Lou From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue May 27 09:18:44 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:18:44 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] P5 1.0.2 is just around the corner... In-Reply-To: <483996A9.6080909@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <483996A9.6080909@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <483C0A34.5070304@kcl.ac.uk> I was supposed to deal with the issue on 'Named time periods' (1927987) and I haven't. However, a week won't be enough for me to gather feedback on this (indeed, it is not just up to me to come up with an example unfortunately, but it requires a consultation process at least with the 'places' workgroup) and eventually propose a solution. I assume this will need to be postponed for a future release then. Sorry for not having dealt with this before. Time flies...I didn't realise we were already a week away from the new release. Arianna Lou Burnard wrote: > At the Galway meeting, we agreed a number of changes to P5, some but not > all of which are already completed and will therefore appear in the next > minor release, which is due to happen in a week's time (give or take..) > > I am hoping to get at least some of the uncompleted ones done later this > week (assuming there are a few quiet moments at LREC), as well as > distilling recent discussion on the lists into feature requests where > possible. > > This is therefore perhaps an opportune moment to request all council > members to take a quick look at > > (a) outstanding feature requests > https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=644065&group_id=106328&func=browse > and comment on any requests on which you think action is both feasible > and desirable for this upcoming release > > and > > (b) actions agreed in Galway a > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw12.xml > and comment on actions as yet incomplete but which etc. > > Thanks in advance... > > Lou > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue May 27 09:34:14 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:34:14 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] P5 1.0.2 is just around the corner... In-Reply-To: <483C0A34.5070304@kcl.ac.uk> References: <483996A9.6080909@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <483C0A34.5070304@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20080527133413.GA15156@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk> Lou was being over-optimistic. I will not have the release ready before mid June. Maybe that gives you time? Sebastian From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue May 27 09:40:18 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 14:40:18 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] P5 1.0.2 is just around the corner... In-Reply-To: <20080527133413.GA15156@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk> References: <483996A9.6080909@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <483C0A34.5070304@kcl.ac.uk> <20080527133413.GA15156@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <483C0F42.4090705@kcl.ac.uk> That is more realistic... Arianna Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Lou was being over-optimistic. I will not have the release > ready before mid June. Maybe that gives you time? > > Sebastian -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue May 27 11:19:31 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 17:19:31 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] P5 1.0.2 is just around the corner... In-Reply-To: <483C0F42.4090705@kcl.ac.uk> References: <483996A9.6080909@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <483C0A34.5070304@kcl.ac.uk> <20080527133413.GA15156@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk> <483C0F42.4090705@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <59D625D4-ED5A-48D5-91A2-8F98CB004D07@loria.fr> And in any case we need to have a TelCo beforehand (more about this to come). Cheers, Laurent Le 27 mai 08 ? 15:40, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > That is more realistic... > > Arianna > > Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> Lou was being over-optimistic. I will not have the release >> ready before mid June. Maybe that gives you time? >> >> Sebastian > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From dsewell at virginia.edu Tue May 27 21:03:08 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 21:03:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] P5 1.0.2 is just around the corner... In-Reply-To: <483996A9.6080909@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <483996A9.6080909@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Just a note to say that I will be able to spend some time on this beginning tomorrow. David On Sun, 25 May 2008, Lou Burnard wrote: > At the Galway meeting, we agreed a number of changes to P5, some but not > all of which are already completed and will therefore appear in the next > minor release, which is due to happen in a week's time (give or take..) > > I am hoping to get at least some of the uncompleted ones done later this > week (assuming there are a few quiet moments at LREC), as well as > distilling recent discussion on the lists into feature requests where > possible. > > This is therefore perhaps an opportune moment to request all council > members to take a quick look at > > (a) outstanding feature requests > https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=644065&group_id=106328&func=browse > and comment on any requests on which you think action is both feasible > and desirable for this upcoming release > > and > > (b) actions agreed in Galway a > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw12.xml > and comment on actions as yet incomplete but which etc. > > Thanks in advance... > > Lou > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri May 30 17:46:39 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 22:46:39 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Re: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 3: P5 11.6 - 11.9] Message-ID: <484075BF.7000904@oucs.ox.ac.uk> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Murray McGillivray Subject: Re: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 3: P5 11.6 - 11.9 Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 15:22:18 -0600 Size: 6190 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080530/6b58b206/attachment.eml From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 06:06:56 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 11:06:56 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH Message-ID: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> Dear all, together with Peter, James, John, and some other people outside the council, I have been invited to participate to the TEI panel to be held this year at the Digital Humanities Conference in Oulu. I can choose to talk about a TEI feature of my interest, but Susas suggested that I might be able to update the audience on the Council activities. To do so, I think I need your input, since after the involvement of all of us in sharing the workload to produce P5, it seems to me we have firm objectives and mission, but may be still a blurred horizon with decisions and roles to be defined better. So, before I decide to talk about us, suggestions, contributions, comments are welcome! Arianna -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Jun 9 06:56:07 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:56:07 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: Dear Arianna, That's a very good idea indeed and we could all help you in this endeavour. I could compile some input on this, but ot could also be an opportunity for gathering a strategy statement for us all I guess. Best wishes, Laurent Le 9 juin 08 ? 12:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > Dear all, > > together with Peter, James, John, and some other people outside the > council, I have been invited to participate to the TEI panel to be > held > this year at the Digital Humanities Conference in Oulu. > > I can choose to talk about a TEI feature of my interest, but Susas > suggested that I might be able to update the audience on the Council > activities. > > To do so, I think I need your input, since after the involvement of > all > of us in sharing the workload to produce P5, it seems to me we have > firm > objectives and mission, but may be still a blurred horizon with > decisions and roles to be defined better. > > So, before I decide to talk about us, suggestions, contributions, > comments are welcome! > > Arianna > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Jun 9 09:39:26 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:39:26 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: OK. I open the fire. I am just wondering whether online brainstorming would work. Here below is a few lines of thought for us as council. I will gather keywords, ideas, development about this, both in the details, but also on the basic question: "does it match what we are trying to do"? TEI council ? strategy statement Main orientation for the council in the coming period Maintaining the guidelines Bug and feature reports Missing ?components? New chapters Connection with communities Chertered group with a focused mission Libraries Strategic technical collaborations W3C, ISO Outreaching ?TEI for the dummies? Le 9 juin 08 ? 12:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > Dear all, > > together with Peter, James, John, and some other people outside the > council, I have been invited to participate to the TEI panel to be > held > this year at the Digital Humanities Conference in Oulu. > > I can choose to talk about a TEI feature of my interest, but Susas > suggested that I might be able to update the audience on the Council > activities. > > To do so, I think I need your input, since after the involvement of > all > of us in sharing the workload to produce P5, it seems to me we have > firm > objectives and mission, but may be still a blurred horizon with > decisions and roles to be defined better. > > So, before I decide to talk about us, suggestions, contributions, > comments are welcome! > > Arianna > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 14:23:34 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 19:23:34 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080609/068b1012/attachment.pl From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 9 14:34:57 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 19:34:57 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <484D77D1.2000705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I'd put in a plea to mention I18N; mainly because showing people pages in Chinese is impressive. I'll shortly upload the final Chinese material, with everything working. I can supply details about the TEI ISO project if needed. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jun 10 05:06:59 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:06:59 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> It would be useful to have a summary of all the current work groups. I will have between 5 to 8 minutes to talk, so I may have to compress information in the slides, but in any case, it would be useful for me to have a better understanding to answer questions and be really aware of what's happening. Thanks, Arianna Lou Burnard wrote: > We should also maybe have a brief report on the new French initiatibve from > Bertrand and other colleagues maybe... I will see what can be done in time. > > Greetings from Belgrade, where the keyboard is a little strange. > > In message Laurent Romary > writes: >> OK. I open the fire. I am just wondering whether online brainstorming >> would work. Here below is a few lines of thought for us as council. >> I will gather keywords, ideas, development about this, both in the >> details, but also on the basic question: "does it match what we are >> trying to do"? >> >> TEI council ? strategy statement >> Main orientation for the council in the coming period >> >> Maintaining the guidelines >> >> Bug and feature reports >> Missing ?components? >> New chapters >> Connection with communities >> >> Chertered group with a focused mission >> Libraries >> Strategic technical collaborations >> >> W3C, ISO >> Outreaching >> >> ?TEI for the dummies? >> >> >> >> >> Le 9 juin 08 ? 12:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> together with Peter, James, John, and some other people outside the >>> council, I have been invited to participate to the TEI panel to be >>> held >>> this year at the Digital Humanities Conference in Oulu. >>> >>> I can choose to talk about a TEI feature of my interest, but Susas >>> suggested that I might be able to update the audience on the Council >>> activities. >>> >>> To do so, I think I need your input, since after the involvement of >>> all >>> of us in sharing the workload to produce P5, it seems to me we have >>> firm >>> objectives and mission, but may be still a blurred horizon with >>> decisions and roles to be defined better. >>> >>> So, before I decide to talk about us, suggestions, contributions, >>> comments are welcome! >>> >>> Arianna >>> -- >>> Dr Arianna Ciula >>> Research Associate >>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >>> King's College London >>> 2nd Floor >>> 26-29 Drury Lane >>> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >>> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >>> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jun 10 05:07:43 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:07:43 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <484D77D1.2000705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> <484D77D1.2000705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <484E445F.30606@kcl.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'd put in a plea to mention I18N Sure, can you drop me some lines on how far we have gone and what's missing? > I can supply details about the TEI ISO > project if needed. > Please do. thanks, Arianna -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Jun 10 05:42:27 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:42:27 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <7A95BDA9-4785-429B-9B7C-4ED585BCCA24@loria.fr> I have just asked Susan Schreibman about this. BTW, could we have her be put on the list so that the communication channel between council and chartered groups run smoothly? Laurent Le 10 juin 08 ? 11:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > It would be useful to have a summary of all the current work > groups. I will have between 5 to 8 minutes to talk, so I may have > to compress information in the slides, but in any case, it would be > useful for me to have a better understanding to answer questions > and be really aware of what's happening. > > Thanks, > Arianna > > Lou Burnard wrote: >> We should also maybe have a brief report on the new French >> initiatibve from >> Bertrand and other colleagues maybe... I will see what can be done >> in time. >> Greetings from Belgrade, where the keyboard is a little strange. >> In message Laurent >> Romary >> writes: >>> OK. I open the fire. I am just wondering whether online >>> brainstorming would work. Here below is a few lines of thought >>> for us as council. >>> I will gather keywords, ideas, development about this, both in >>> the details, but also on the basic question: "does it match what >>> we are trying to do"? >>> >>> TEI council ? strategy statement >>> Main orientation for the council in the coming period >>> >>> Maintaining the guidelines >>> >>> Bug and feature reports >>> Missing ?components? >>> New chapters >>> Connection with communities >>> >>> Chertered group with a focused mission >>> Libraries >>> Strategic technical collaborations >>> >>> W3C, ISO >>> Outreaching >>> >>> ?TEI for the dummies? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Le 9 juin 08 ? 12:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> together with Peter, James, John, and some other people outside the >>>> council, I have been invited to participate to the TEI panel to >>>> be held >>>> this year at the Digital Humanities Conference in Oulu. >>>> >>>> I can choose to talk about a TEI feature of my interest, but Susas >>>> suggested that I might be able to update the audience on the >>>> Council >>>> activities. >>>> >>>> To do so, I think I need your input, since after the involvement >>>> of all >>>> of us in sharing the workload to produce P5, it seems to me we >>>> have firm >>>> objectives and mission, but may be still a blurred horizon with >>>> decisions and roles to be defined better. >>>> >>>> So, before I decide to talk about us, suggestions, contributions, >>>> comments are welcome! >>>> >>>> Arianna >>>> -- >>>> Dr Arianna Ciula >>>> Research Associate >>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >>>> King's College London >>>> 2nd Floor >>>> 26-29 Drury Lane >>>> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >>>> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >>>> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> tei-council mailing list >>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Jun 10 05:49:53 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:49:53 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5DFD4171-5B91-43B7-9975-7F8D1CDC0CAF@loria.fr> Arianna, Susan will actually make a presentation about SIG's there: you can also have a look at http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/index.xml Laurent Le 10 juin 08 ? 11:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > It would be useful to have a summary of all the current work > groups. I will have between 5 to 8 minutes to talk, so I may have > to compress information in the slides, but in any case, it would be > useful for me to have a better understanding to answer questions > and be really aware of what's happening. > > Thanks, > Arianna > > Lou Burnard wrote: >> We should also maybe have a brief report on the new French >> initiatibve from >> Bertrand and other colleagues maybe... I will see what can be done >> in time. >> Greetings from Belgrade, where the keyboard is a little strange. >> In message Laurent >> Romary >> writes: >>> OK. I open the fire. I am just wondering whether online >>> brainstorming would work. Here below is a few lines of thought >>> for us as council. >>> I will gather keywords, ideas, development about this, both in >>> the details, but also on the basic question: "does it match what >>> we are trying to do"? >>> >>> TEI council ? strategy statement >>> Main orientation for the council in the coming period >>> >>> Maintaining the guidelines >>> >>> Bug and feature reports >>> Missing ?components? >>> New chapters >>> Connection with communities >>> >>> Chertered group with a focused mission >>> Libraries >>> Strategic technical collaborations >>> >>> W3C, ISO >>> Outreaching >>> >>> ?TEI for the dummies? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Le 9 juin 08 ? 12:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> together with Peter, James, John, and some other people outside the >>>> council, I have been invited to participate to the TEI panel to >>>> be held >>>> this year at the Digital Humanities Conference in Oulu. >>>> >>>> I can choose to talk about a TEI feature of my interest, but Susas >>>> suggested that I might be able to update the audience on the >>>> Council >>>> activities. >>>> >>>> To do so, I think I need your input, since after the involvement >>>> of all >>>> of us in sharing the workload to produce P5, it seems to me we >>>> have firm >>>> objectives and mission, but may be still a blurred horizon with >>>> decisions and roles to be defined better. >>>> >>>> So, before I decide to talk about us, suggestions, contributions, >>>> comments are welcome! >>>> >>>> Arianna >>>> -- >>>> Dr Arianna Ciula >>>> Research Associate >>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >>>> King's College London >>>> 2nd Floor >>>> 26-29 Drury Lane >>>> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >>>> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >>>> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> tei-council mailing list >>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jun 10 06:06:13 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:06:13 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <5DFD4171-5B91-43B7-9975-7F8D1CDC0CAF@loria.fr> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> <5DFD4171-5B91-43B7-9975-7F8D1CDC0CAF@loria.fr> Message-ID: <484E5215.1050500@kcl.ac.uk> Indeed, when I said work groups I didn't mean the SIGs, but the task forces chartered by the council. Sometimes these become SIGs, but not always and not necessarily, since their work may be intense and brief and their outcome sort of confined (e.g. persons and places groups and possibly the current physical bibliography group). Arianna Laurent Romary wrote: > Arianna, > Susan will actually make a presentation about SIG's there: you can also > have a look at http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/index.xml > Laurent > > Le 10 juin 08 ? 11:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > >> It would be useful to have a summary of all the current work groups. I >> will have between 5 to 8 minutes to talk, so I may have to compress >> information in the slides, but in any case, it would be useful for me >> to have a better understanding to answer questions and be really aware >> of what's happening. >> >> Thanks, >> Arianna >> >> Lou Burnard wrote: >>> We should also maybe have a brief report on the new French >>> initiatibve from >>> Bertrand and other colleagues maybe... I will see what can be done in >>> time. >>> Greetings from Belgrade, where the keyboard is a little strange. >>> In message Laurent >>> Romary >>> writes: >>>> OK. I open the fire. I am just wondering whether online >>>> brainstorming would work. Here below is a few lines of thought for >>>> us as council. >>>> I will gather keywords, ideas, development about this, both in the >>>> details, but also on the basic question: "does it match what we are >>>> trying to do"? >>>> >>>> TEI council ? strategy statement >>>> Main orientation for the council in the coming period >>>> >>>> Maintaining the guidelines >>>> >>>> Bug and feature reports >>>> Missing ?components? >>>> New chapters >>>> Connection with communities >>>> >>>> Chertered group with a focused mission >>>> Libraries >>>> Strategic technical collaborations >>>> >>>> W3C, ISO >>>> Outreaching >>>> >>>> ?TEI for the dummies? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 9 juin 08 ? 12:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : >>>> >>>>> Dear all, >>>>> >>>>> together with Peter, James, John, and some other people outside the >>>>> council, I have been invited to participate to the TEI panel to be >>>>> held >>>>> this year at the Digital Humanities Conference in Oulu. >>>>> >>>>> I can choose to talk about a TEI feature of my interest, but Susas >>>>> suggested that I might be able to update the audience on the Council >>>>> activities. >>>>> >>>>> To do so, I think I need your input, since after the involvement >>>>> of all >>>>> of us in sharing the workload to produce P5, it seems to me we >>>>> have firm >>>>> objectives and mission, but may be still a blurred horizon with >>>>> decisions and roles to be defined better. >>>>> >>>>> So, before I decide to talk about us, suggestions, contributions, >>>>> comments are welcome! >>>>> >>>>> Arianna >>>>> -- >>>>> Dr Arianna Ciula >>>>> Research Associate >>>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >>>>> King's College London >>>>> 2nd Floor >>>>> 26-29 Drury Lane >>>>> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >>>>> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >>>>> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> tei-council mailing list >>>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> tei-council mailing list >>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> -- >> Dr Arianna Ciula >> Research Associate >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 2nd Floor >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Jun 10 21:04:38 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel Paul O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:04:38 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <7A95BDA9-4785-429B-9B7C-4ED585BCCA24@loria.fr> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> <7A95BDA9-4785-429B-9B7C-4ED585BCCA24@loria.fr> Message-ID: <1213146278.7072.4.camel@wiglaf> David's handling this now, correct? -dan On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 11:42 +0200, Laurent Romary wrote: > I have just asked Susan Schreibman about this. > BTW, could we have her be put on the list so that the communication > channel between council and chartered groups run smoothly? > Laurent > > Le 10 juin 08 ? 11:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > > > It would be useful to have a summary of all the current work > > groups. I will have between 5 to 8 minutes to talk, so I may have > > to compress information in the slides, but in any case, it would be > > useful for me to have a better understanding to answer questions > > and be really aware of what's happening. > > > > Thanks, > > Arianna > > > > Lou Burnard wrote: > >> We should also maybe have a brief report on the new French > >> initiatibve from > >> Bertrand and other colleagues maybe... I will see what can be done > >> in time. > >> Greetings from Belgrade, where the keyboard is a little strange. > >> In message Laurent > >> Romary > >> writes: > >>> OK. I open the fire. I am just wondering whether online > >>> brainstorming would work. Here below is a few lines of thought > >>> for us as council. > >>> I will gather keywords, ideas, development about this, both in > >>> the details, but also on the basic question: "does it match what > >>> we are trying to do"? > >>> > >>> TEI council ? strategy statement > >>> Main orientation for the council in the coming period > >>> > >>> Maintaining the guidelines > >>> > >>> Bug and feature reports > >>> Missing ?components? > >>> New chapters > >>> Connection with communities > >>> > >>> Chertered group with a focused mission > >>> Libraries > >>> Strategic technical collaborations > >>> > >>> W3C, ISO > >>> Outreaching > >>> > >>> ?TEI for the dummies? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Le 9 juin 08 ? 12:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > >>> > >>>> Dear all, > >>>> > >>>> together with Peter, James, John, and some other people outside the > >>>> council, I have been invited to participate to the TEI panel to > >>>> be held > >>>> this year at the Digital Humanities Conference in Oulu. > >>>> > >>>> I can choose to talk about a TEI feature of my interest, but Susas > >>>> suggested that I might be able to update the audience on the > >>>> Council > >>>> activities. > >>>> > >>>> To do so, I think I need your input, since after the involvement > >>>> of all > >>>> of us in sharing the workload to produce P5, it seems to me we > >>>> have firm > >>>> objectives and mission, but may be still a blurred horizon with > >>>> decisions and roles to be defined better. > >>>> > >>>> So, before I decide to talk about us, suggestions, contributions, > >>>> comments are welcome! > >>>> > >>>> Arianna > >>>> -- > >>>> Dr Arianna Ciula > >>>> Research Associate > >>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities > >>>> King's College London > >>>> 2nd Floor > >>>> 26-29 Drury Lane > >>>> London WC2B 5RL (UK) > >>>> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > >>>> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> tei-council mailing list > >>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> tei-council mailing list > >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > -- > > Dr Arianna Ciula > > Research Associate > > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > > King's College London > > 2nd Floor > > 26-29 Drury Lane > > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From dsewell at virginia.edu Tue Jun 10 23:23:02 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:23:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <1213146278.7072.4.camel@wiglaf> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> <7A95BDA9-4785-429B-9B7C-4ED585BCCA24@loria.fr> <1213146278.7072.4.camel@wiglaf> Message-ID: Yes. Susan, I've just added you to tei-council, subscribed under your Gmail address (let me know if it should be a different one). David On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Daniel Paul O'Donnell wrote: > David's handling this now, correct? -dan On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 11:42 +0200, Laurent Romary wrote: > I have just asked Susan Schreibman about this. > BTW, could we have her be put on the list so that the communication > channel between council and chartered groups run smoothly? > Laurent > > Le 10 juin 08 ? 11:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > > > It would be useful to have a summary of all the current work > > groups. I will have between 5 to 8 minutes to talk, so I may have > > to compress information in the slides, but in any case, it would be > > useful for me to have a better understanding to answer questions > > and be really aware of what's happening. > > > > Thanks, > > Arianna > > > > Lou Burnard wrote: > >> We should also maybe have a brief report on the new French > >> initiatibve from > >> Bertrand and other colleagues maybe... I will see what can be done > >> in time. > >> Greetings from Belgrade, where the keyboard is a little strange. > >> In message Laurent > >> Romary > >> writes: > >>> OK. I open the fire. I am just wondering whether online > >>> brainstorming would work. Here below is a few lines of thought > >>> for us as council. > >>> I will gather keywords, ideas, development about this, both in > >>> the details, but also on the basic question: "does it match what > >>> we are trying to do"? > >>> > >>> TEI council ??? strategy statement > >>> Main orientation for the council in the coming period > >>> > >>> Maintaining the guidelines > >>> > >>> Bug and feature reports > >>> Missing ???components??? > >>> New chapters > >>> Connection with communities > >>> > >>> Chertered group with a focused mission > >>> Libraries > >>> Strategic technical collaborations > >>> > >>> W3C, ISO > >>> Outreaching > >>> > >>> ???TEI for the dummies??? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Le 9 juin 08 ??? 12:06, Arianna Ciula a ???crit : > >>> > >>>> Dear all, > >>>> > >>>> together with Peter, James, John, and some other people outside the > >>>> council, I have been invited to participate to the TEI panel to > >>>> be held > >>>> this year at the Digital Humanities Conference in Oulu. > >>>> > >>>> I can choose to talk about a TEI feature of my interest, but Susas > >>>> suggested that I might be able to update the audience on the > >>>> Council > >>>> activities. > >>>> > >>>> To do so, I think I need your input, since after the involvement > >>>> of all > >>>> of us in sharing the workload to produce P5, it seems to me we > >>>> have firm > >>>> objectives and mission, but may be still a blurred horizon with > >>>> decisions and roles to be defined better. > >>>> > >>>> So, before I decide to talk about us, suggestions, contributions, > >>>> comments are welcome! > >>>> > >>>> Arianna > >>>> -- > >>>> Dr Arianna Ciula > >>>> Research Associate > >>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities > >>>> King's College London > >>>> 2nd Floor > >>>> 26-29 Drury Lane > >>>> London WC2B 5RL (UK) > >>>> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > >>>> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> tei-council mailing list > >>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> tei-council mailing list > >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > -- > > Dr Arianna Ciula > > Research Associate > > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > > King's College London > > 2nd Floor > > 26-29 Drury Lane > > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager Electronic Imprint, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400318, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://www.ei.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 13 17:51:30 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:51:30 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 4: P5 10.2] Message-ID: <4852EBE2.7070202@oucs.ox.ac.uk> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Murray McGillivray Subject: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 4: P5 10.2 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:08:36 -0600 Size: 15457 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080613/c68fa0f0/attachment.eml From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Jun 18 13:50:40 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:50:40 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Example numbering Message-ID: <1213811441.8211.71.camel@localhost> Hi all, I raised an issue on tei-l about spacing, partially wondering if there wasn't something broken in the spacing of the presentation of some egXML elements. James had noticed it as well and is planning to report it on source forge (which is down, he says, at the minute). But this also raises a presentation issue as well: I (and others, I'm sure) are often referring others to examples in the guidelines. In addition to my email yesterday to tei-l, for example, I also gave a research assistant a list of some examples that I wanted her to mimic for another project I'm working on. I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be good to number the examples as well in the same way that linguists do. This means that you can refer people directly to specific examples. What do others think? -dan -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jun 18 16:20:48 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:20:48 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Example numbering In-Reply-To: <1213811441.8211.71.camel@localhost> References: <1213811441.8211.71.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <48596E20.8070605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Daniel O'Donnell wrote: > I raised an issue on tei-l about spacing, partially wondering if there > wasn't something broken in the spacing of the presentation of some egXML > elements. James had noticed it as well and is planning to report it on > source forge (which is down, he says, at the minute). > its definitely broke. sorry, this may not be easy for me to fix. > for another project I'm working on. I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be > good to number the examples as well in the same way that linguists do. > eh? how do linguists number examples? do you mean the examples in the body of the text? what would happen when we added or deleted one? otherwise, its obviously fairly easy to do. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 08:27:20 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:27:20 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] where to put schematron constraints Message-ID: <485A50A8.5040101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> The ODD setup _per se_ has no place to record Schematron constraints. For the purpose of P5, I have extended the content model of to allow them to be embedded there, in their own namespace. This all works fine. If you want to add some rules to an existing element in your project ODD, you have therefore to duplicate the current and add in your rules. This seems clumsy and error-prone. I'd like to change all this to move Schematron rules so that they are children of directly. I would implement this by defining a new macro "macro.schemaConstraints" which defaults to empty, and is at the end of the content model for . in the ODD for P5, I would then redefine that macro to allow "anything in the Schematron language". Any thoughts? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 08:43:26 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:43:26 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] where to put schematron constraints In-Reply-To: <485A50A8.5040101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485A50A8.5040101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <485A546E.4060601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > The ODD setup _per se_ has no place to > record Schematron constraints. For the > purpose of P5, I have extended the > content model of to allow > them to be embedded there, in their own > namespace. This all works fine. > > If you want to add some rules to an existing > element in your project ODD, you have > therefore to duplicate the current > and add in your rules. This > seems clumsy and error-prone. > > I'd like to change all this to move Schematron > rules so that they are children of > directly. I would implement this by defining > a new macro "macro.schemaConstraints" > which defaults to empty, and is at the end of > the content model for . in > the ODD for P5, I would then redefine that > macro to allow "anything in the Schematron > language". Would the ability to stick the schematron inside still be kept? Or would it only be allowed in the new place? Will it break any existing user-created ODDs? -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 08:48:04 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:48:04 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] where to put schematron constraints In-Reply-To: <485A546E.4060601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485A50A8.5040101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A546E.4060601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <485A5584.9070204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > > Would the ability to stick the schematron inside still be > kept? Or would it only be allowed in the new place? Will it break any > existing user-created ODDs? there are two sorts of breakage: a) the XSL scriptts would no longer do what they expect b) the ODD would no longer be valid against p5odds.odd one would have to treat these separately. since this is not core TEI, we _can_ break if we have to -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 09:10:54 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:10:54 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] where to put schematron constraints In-Reply-To: <485A5584.9070204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485A50A8.5040101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A546E.4060601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A5584.9070204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <485A5ADE.8030305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > James Cummings wrote: >> >> Would the ability to stick the schematron inside still be >> kept? Or would it only be allowed in the new place? Will it break any >> existing user-created ODDs? > there are two sorts of breakage: > > a) the XSL scriptts would no longer do what they expect > b) the ODD would no longer be valid against p5odds.odd > > one would have to treat these separately. Ok, but equally the cost of them upgrading to putting the schematron in the better place (which seems to make more semantic sense rather than being inside 'content') is a fairly trivial task. (CutnPaste or a quick XSLT to move it from one place to the other?) I'd suggest you do a quick show of hands on TEI-L to see if there are many people using schematron inside their ODDs. If there are, then maybe allow it both places, if not, then just do the change but write a quick example conversion transformation and also some examples of using co-occurrence constraints in the new way. I can see this as something that potentially a lot of people will want to do, but probably haven't done yet. > since this is not core TEI, we _can_ break if we have to I'm not sure those are precisely the rules we have set for ourselves...but I certainly can't imagine this affecting more than a small minority of people all with only a very few ODDs at most. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Jun 19 09:20:33 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] where to put schematron constraints In-Reply-To: <485A5ADE.8030305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485A50A8.5040101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A546E.4060601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A5584.9070204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A5ADE.8030305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 2008, James Cummings wrote: > I'd suggest you do a quick show of hands on TEI-L to see if there are > many people using schematron inside their ODDs. If there are, then > maybe allow it both places, if not, then just do the change but write a > quick example conversion transformation and also some examples of using > co-occurrence constraints in the new way. I can see this as something > that potentially a lot of people will want to do, but probably haven't > done yet. I'd ask two questions, if polling the constituency: * Have you used Schematron inside of an ODD file? * Do you use independent Schematron schemas to validate TEI files? I'd guess quite a few more of us would answer "yes" to #2, but might well try #1 if the mechanism is simple. -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Jun 19 09:18:02 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:18:02 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] where to put schematron constraints In-Reply-To: <485A5584.9070204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485A50A8.5040101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A546E.4060601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A5584.9070204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <0A3BA5C0-9B6C-4A86-A370-C342F803D377@loria.fr> Sebastian: I think this is enough of an important issue that I would suggest to stabilise a good solution rather quickly. Could you prepare a short note with an example that we could validate on our next call (soon, see coming message). Best wishes, Laurent Le 19 juin 08 ? 14:48, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > James Cummings wrote: >> >> Would the ability to stick the schematron inside still be >> kept? Or would it only be allowed in the new place? Will it break >> any >> existing user-created ODDs? > there are two sorts of breakage: > > a) the XSL scriptts would no longer do what they expect > b) the ODD would no longer be valid against p5odds.odd > > one would have to treat these separately. > > since this is not core TEI, we _can_ break if we have to > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Jun 19 09:24:32 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:24:32 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] where to put schematron constraints In-Reply-To: References: <485A50A8.5040101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A546E.4060601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A5584.9070204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A5ADE.8030305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Agree for the 'show of hands' (in complement to my other message). Sebastian: please. Thanks, Laurent Le 19 juin 08 ? 15:20, David Sewell a ?crit : > On Thu, 19 Jun 2008, James Cummings wrote: > >> I'd suggest you do a quick show of hands on TEI-L to see if there are >> many people using schematron inside their ODDs. If there are, then >> maybe allow it both places, if not, then just do the change but >> write a >> quick example conversion transformation and also some examples of >> using >> co-occurrence constraints in the new way. I can see this as >> something >> that potentially a lot of people will want to do, but probably >> haven't >> done yet. > > I'd ask two questions, if polling the constituency: > > * Have you used Schematron inside of an ODD file? > > * Do you use independent Schematron schemas to validate TEI files? > > I'd guess quite a few more of us would answer "yes" to #2, but might > well try #1 if the mechanism is simple. > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jun 19 10:55:09 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:55:09 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] where to put schematron constraints In-Reply-To: <0A3BA5C0-9B6C-4A86-A370-C342F803D377@loria.fr> References: <485A50A8.5040101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A546E.4060601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A5584.9070204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <0A3BA5C0-9B6C-4A86-A370-C342F803D377@loria.fr> Message-ID: <485A734D.1090206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Sebastian: I think this is enough of an important issue that I would > suggest to stabilise a good solution rather quickly. Could you prepare > a short note with an example that we could validate on our next call ok, I will work something up. It has arisen because of work on the ENRICH and ISO projects, both of which need clean solutions soon. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jun 20 03:04:50 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 03:04:50 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] where to put schematron constraints In-Reply-To: <485A734D.1090206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485A50A8.5040101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A546E.4060601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A5584.9070204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <0A3BA5C0-9B6C-4A86-A370-C342F803D377@loria.fr> <485A734D.1090206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18523.22162.50711.631610@emt.wwp.brown.edu> DS> I'd ask two questions, if polling the constituency: DS> * Have you used Schematron inside of an ODD file? DS> * Do you use independent Schematron schemas to validate TEI files? DS> I'd guess quite a few more of us would answer "yes" to #2, but DS> might well try #1 if the mechanism is simple. I agree. And the easy way to make it somewhat simpler, of course, is to add "Schematron" to the possible types of schemas that can be obtained from Roma the web tool. It can't just be listed in the pop-up menu, though, as that would imply that the Schematron rules you get are somehow equivalent to the RELAX NG schema you get. My gut instinct is the right way to do this is either with multiple submission buttons or with radio buttons, so that an explanation can be associated with each schema language. This would permit something like: __ RELAX NG, XML syntax (canonical) __ RELAX NG, compact syntax (canonical) __ W3C Schema (non-canonical, but expresses almost exactly the same set of constraints) __ DTD (expresses only a subset of the constraints available in RELAX NG, and thus only recommended if you are using tools that cannot make use of RELAX NG) __ Schematron (extracts Schematron constraints that are entirely separate from the constraints expressed in the languages above) On the issue where to put the Schematron constraints, while I consider permitting them as a direct child of better than as a child of , it still seems like we would be constraining their location in a manner that misses the point of an ODD: to be able to associate the documentation with the formal constraint. Seems to me one should be able to put Schematron rules into , too, and that something like the following should be possible. --------- begin example --------- Just a little demo of how Schematron might be embedded into ODD code Introductory text written by someone other than the author forewords (i.e., 'div' elements with type="foreword") should be children of the front matter Introductory text written by the author prefaces (i.e., 'div' elements with type="preface") should be children of the front matter --------- end example --------- One can well imagine an ODD processor that made use of this somehow. E.g., putting the relevant Schematron code in a note that pops up when the user moses over the attribute name in the customized documentation. That sort of thing. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jun 20 03:34:27 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:34:27 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] where to put schematron constraints In-Reply-To: <18523.22162.50711.631610@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <485A50A8.5040101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A546E.4060601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485A5584.9070204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <0A3BA5C0-9B6C-4A86-A370-C342F803D377@loria.fr> <485A734D.1090206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18523.22162.50711.631610@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <485B5D83.9080303@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > I agree. And the easy way to make it somewhat simpler, of course, is > to add "Schematron" to the possible types of schemas that can be > obtained from Roma the web tool. I do agree. I'd like to get this sorted out sometime in the not too distant future, but I don't think there is time to get it into the next release > > On the issue where to put the Schematron constraints, while I > consider permitting them as a direct child of better > than as a child of , it still seems like we would be > constraining their location in a manner that misses the point of an > ODD: to be able to associate the documentation with the formal > constraint. > can you expand on this? can you list all the places you want to put ? Among the choices are - as immediate child of (and if needed) - anywhere at all inside - as an optional 4th sibling of , and (heaven forfend we ever reach a 5th child, fellow Doris Lessing fans...) - inside a new content element - inside a _second_ element, with a different @type to distinguish it More ideas on this needed. > > One can well imagine an ODD processor that made use of this somehow. > E.g., putting the relevant Schematron code in a note that pops up > when the user moses over the attribute name in the customized > documentation. That sort of thing. > don't we just simply use it in the validator? but yes, the more ways we can use it the better -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Sat Jun 21 10:58:56 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 15:58:56 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <484E5215.1050500@kcl.ac.uk> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> <5DFD4171-5B91-43B7-9975-7F8D1CDC0CAF@loria.fr> <484E5215.1050500@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <485D1730.2010801@kcl.ac.uk> Dear all, please find below a possible outline for my presentation at DH this year and let me know what you think. I have some questions still: - David: is it right to say that the Correspondence workgroup has become a SIG? I don't think so... - All: Personography Workgroup --> I have included this among the completed activities. Fine? - Lou and Laurent: ISO activity on feature structure is completed now, right? - Sebastian: want to send me that page in Chinese? or tell me where to take a screenshot or something that is up to date? - Laurent and Oxford: any news on ISO standards documents in ODD? - Dan: does TEI Tite fits where I put it? - Lou: can I have some details on that French initiative please? - Laurent: 'with W3C' --> should I refer to a specific collaboration here or leave it as a general statement? - Peter: do you think I should say something more about the training online handbook? - All: I'd like to say something about the discussion we had on extending and making the set of stylesheets more usable. Hope that's fine. - All: Note that the tei council annual reports for 2006 and 2007 are missing from the website: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Reports/ ======================== TEI Council: Mission and Activities *Mission* Council: An assembly called together for any purpose; a convocation or congregation ? An advisory or deliberative assembly (OED) - TEI council: - responsible for the technical development of the TEI guidelines recommends, evaluates, and implements new features and modifications of existing features, and supervises the overall development of each new version of the Guidelines - new bylaws: 1. collect, propose, evaluate, and implement editorial changes to the TEI Guidelines (and its derivatives) 2. produce up-to-date documentation for the TEI 3. propose and assist in the preparation of training documents and tutorials; evaluate agreements for official TEI-C training, services, and collaborations and make recommendations to the TEI-C Board concerning endorsement of such training, services, and collaborations *Not Secret Council* - Mailing list archives: http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/ - Face to face yearly meetings (more frequent meetings under discussion) and monthly teleconferences (frequency highly dependent on workload) - Reports available: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/ - At the next TEI annual Members' Meeting the Council will present a report on current work - 6-8 November 2008, King?s College London, London ? http://www.cch.kcl.ac.uk/tei2008/ *Maintaining the Guidelines* - Bug and feature requests - Report to TEI L (when doubtful, controversial or more discussion needed) - Submit directly to and see progress in SourceForge - http://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/ - Missing ?components? - New chapters *TEI Workgroups* - Usually based on needs of the community (constant monitoring of TEI L) - Often chartered by the council to recommend extensions or modifications to the TEI Guidelines - Currently active: - Correspondence --> now become a SIG - Physical Bibliography Workgroup - Chartered in May 2004; chaired by Murray McGillivray - Completed: - Personography Workgroup - Chartered in January 2006; chaired by Matthew Driscoll - Character Encoding Workgroup - Chaired by Christian Wittern - Metalanguage Workgroup - Chaired by Sebastian Rahtz - Migration Workgroup - Chaired by Chris Ruotolo - Stand-Off Markup Workgroup - Chaired by David Durand - Manuscript Description Task Force *Other Council Activities* - Internationalization and Localization of the guidelines ? supported by ALLC - Strategic technical collaborations - Working with other standards - With ISO - Activity on Feature Structures - Write ISO standards documents in ODD - With W3C? - Involvement in French initiative? - TEI Tite - Individual contributions - Trainings (but see below) - METS - Open Office *Internationalization and Localization* http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ - a working architecture for internationalization of the TEI source - internationalized stylesheets for delivery of the reference section of TEI guidelines - translations of the TEI reference documentation into 6 languages - Chinese, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Spanish - plus 2: Portuguese, Russian - further translation efforts to be undertaken on a volunteer basis, or to be supported by further funding if available *Advise, Support and Outreaching* Council: A body of men (AND WOMEN) chosen or designated as permanent advisers on matters of ? esp. to advise and assist in ... (OED) - Council meetings associated with local symposia - Period of reassessment after launch of P5 - embody new strategy statement especially on outreaching - towards this direction - working online handbook on ?How to? - focus on examples and stylesheets - work on website *Elected council* - If member or subscriber: Remember to vote! Arianna Ciula wrote: > Indeed, when I said work groups I didn't mean the SIGs, but the task > forces chartered by the council. Sometimes these become SIGs, but not > always and not necessarily, since their work may be intense and brief > and their outcome sort of confined (e.g. persons and places groups and > possibly the current physical bibliography group). > > Arianna > > Laurent Romary wrote: >> Arianna, >> Susan will actually make a presentation about SIG's there: you can also >> have a look at http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SIG/index.xml >> Laurent >> >> Le 10 juin 08 ? 11:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : >> >>> It would be useful to have a summary of all the current work groups. I >>> will have between 5 to 8 minutes to talk, so I may have to compress >>> information in the slides, but in any case, it would be useful for me >>> to have a better understanding to answer questions and be really aware >>> of what's happening. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Arianna >>> >>> Lou Burnard wrote: >>>> We should also maybe have a brief report on the new French >>>> initiatibve from >>>> Bertrand and other colleagues maybe... I will see what can be done in >>>> time. >>>> Greetings from Belgrade, where the keyboard is a little strange. >>>> In message Laurent >>>> Romary >>>> writes: >>>>> OK. I open the fire. I am just wondering whether online >>>>> brainstorming would work. Here below is a few lines of thought for >>>>> us as council. >>>>> I will gather keywords, ideas, development about this, both in the >>>>> details, but also on the basic question: "does it match what we are >>>>> trying to do"? >>>>> >>>>> TEI council ? strategy statement >>>>> Main orientation for the council in the coming period >>>>> >>>>> Maintaining the guidelines >>>>> >>>>> Bug and feature reports >>>>> Missing ?components? >>>>> New chapters >>>>> Connection with communities >>>>> >>>>> Chertered group with a focused mission >>>>> Libraries >>>>> Strategic technical collaborations >>>>> >>>>> W3C, ISO >>>>> Outreaching >>>>> >>>>> ?TEI for the dummies? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le 9 juin 08 ? 12:06, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : >>>>> >>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>> >>>>>> together with Peter, James, John, and some other people outside the >>>>>> council, I have been invited to participate to the TEI panel to be >>>>>> held >>>>>> this year at the Digital Humanities Conference in Oulu. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can choose to talk about a TEI feature of my interest, but Susas >>>>>> suggested that I might be able to update the audience on the Council >>>>>> activities. >>>>>> >>>>>> To do so, I think I need your input, since after the involvement >>>>>> of all >>>>>> of us in sharing the workload to produce P5, it seems to me we >>>>>> have firm >>>>>> objectives and mission, but may be still a blurred horizon with >>>>>> decisions and roles to be defined better. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, before I decide to talk about us, suggestions, contributions, >>>>>> comments are welcome! >>>>>> >>>>>> Arianna >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Dr Arianna Ciula >>>>>> Research Associate >>>>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >>>>>> King's College London >>>>>> 2nd Floor >>>>>> 26-29 Drury Lane >>>>>> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >>>>>> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >>>>>> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> tei-council mailing list >>>>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> tei-council mailing list >>>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> -- >>> Dr Arianna Ciula >>> Research Associate >>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >>> King's College London >>> 2nd Floor >>> 26-29 Drury Lane >>> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >>> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >>> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jun 21 13:11:45 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:11:45 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <485D1730.2010801@kcl.ac.uk> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> <5DFD4171-5B91-43B7-9975-7F8D1CDC0CAF@loria.fr> <484E5215.1050500@kcl.ac.uk> <485D1730.2010801@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <485D3651.4010507@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Arianna Ciula wrote: > - All: Personography Workgroup --> I have included this among the > completed activities. Fine? > definitely. in the images I will send you shortly, you could show the one called "lgpn.jpg". Its a screen shot of the Lexicon of Greek Personal, which is a database of 250,000 records marked up in TEI XML using personography. The screen shot shows a combined map and timeline derived from data - a demonstration that TEI XML is rich enough to generate this sort of thing easily. > - Sebastian: want to send me that page in Chinese? or tell me where to > take a screenshot or something that is up to date? > I am sending you 6 images shortly to use. Four of them are the same reference page in English, Italian, Japanese and Chinese; one is a Chinese table of contents; the last is a shot of Roma in Chinese. You can use this to say that the TEI is taking its I18N seriously. We have Chinese, Japanese, Spanish, French, and Italian all done now (more or less) for the reference documentation, waiting on German, with some chance of Portuguese and Russian this year. The Chinese are now working on translating/adapting examples, which will be ready for the TEI members meeting this autumn. > - Laurent and Oxford: any news on ISO standards documents in ODD? > indeed. we have submitted the first draft of a profile of the TEI for representing ISO standards, which is accompanied by transformations to and from Microsoft Word 2007. It makes use of MathML and Word tables and Math in their own namespace, and makes extensive use of Schematron constraints. The single ODD source is used to maintain 4 separate versions of the profile - light, with few constraints - normal, with ISO structure constraints - extended, with extra namespace as abobe - ODD-enhanced, for those who want to write ISO standards about XML languages IMPORTANT NOTE: we do not have permission from ISO to trumpet this around without telling them. So mention it, but don't make a big deal out of it, please. > - All: I'd like to say something about the discussion we had on > extending and making the set of stylesheets more usable. > I think that was left saying that we would be providing worked examples of stylesheets to accompany sample texts, along side the Boot Book. > - All: Note that the tei council annual reports for 2006 and 2007 are > missing from the website: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Reports/ > David, sounds like one for you to check on .... > *Other Council Activities* > - Internationalization and Localization of the guidelines ? supported by > ALLC > please, for political sake, mention also ATILF in France and the National Digital Archive in Taiwan, to show we have partners > - Strategic technical collaborations > - Working with other standards > - With ISO > - Activity on Feature Structures > - Write ISO standards documents in ODD > - With W3C? > this was on the Internationalisation Tag Set (ITS) Recommendation published in 2007 > *Internationalization and Localization* > http://www.tei-c.org/Tools/I18N/ > - a working architecture for internationalization of the TEI source > qualify by saying "the reference sections of the TEI Guidelines" ? > *Advise, Support and Outreaching* > Council: A body of men (AND WOMEN) chosen or designated as permanent > boo hiss I am sending you a set of images separately -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jun 21 13:52:28 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:52:28 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <485D1730.2010801@kcl.ac.uk> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> <5DFD4171-5B91-43B7-9975-7F8D1CDC0CAF@loria.fr> <484E5215.1050500@kcl.ac.uk> <485D1730.2010801@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <485D3FDC.8090505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Arianna Ciula wrote: > - Lou and Laurent: ISO activity on feature structure is completed now, > right? > Part one of ISO 24610 was published last year: this is the part that deals with feature structure representation. It is the same text as the TEI P5 chapter, with some additional tutorial material. Work on the second part (feature system declaration) has not progressed very far, but there is a draft out for ballot right now, which is also essentially the same as the chapter published in TEI P5. > - Lou: can I have some details on that French initiative please? > The TEI hosts at Nancy, together with the INIST, succeeded in getting a grant from a French infrastructural initiative called ADONIS, the purpose of which is to develop a network of TEI expertise in France. A preliminary planning meeting in Paris was well attended by nearly 20 people from seven or eight different institutions, many of whom had not previously met. The intention is to share expertise via a wiki and a new mailing list (tei-res) , and also to organize a training workshop to be held this October. Any French-speaker with TEI expertise or interest is warmly invited to participate in the network: go to https://listes.cru.fr/sympa/subscribe/tei-res. > - All: I'd like to say something about the discussion we had on > extending and making the set of stylesheets more usable. Hope that's fine. > The French were particularly interested in the idea of "TEI Stylesheets pour les nuls" > - All: Note that the tei council annual reports for 2006 and 2007 are > missing from the website: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Reports/ > Yes. Who's maintaining that website, I ask? Anyway, the 2006 report is here: http://www.tei-c.org/Membership/Meetings/2006-Victoria/mm06councilreport.xml In 2007, the chair didn't table a written report to members (instead we gave a rather fine presentation about P5); there was a brief oral report in the business meeting, reported in the minutes from that which are at http://www.tei-c.org/Membership/Meetings/2007-Maryland/mm44.xml > From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jun 21 15:46:27 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:46:27 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] layout of datatypes etc Message-ID: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I'd be glad of opinions on these pages, please: * table of contents at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/index-toc.html * list of uses of datatype at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-data.pointer.html I have tried to do some of what we discussed in Ireland and just after, with some difficulty. I want to get this sorted, tho. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jun 21 15:49:48 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:49:48 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] see FR 1925125 Message-ID: <485D5B5C.1060900@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Gabriel proposed the following two changes as resolution for this ticket after the last Council: ---- (1) @extent and @unit on gap are to be suppressed, and instead gap will be made a member of att.dimensions, which gives it @quantity and @unit. (2) att.dimensions is to be extended by the addition of attributes: @from and @to (to indicate ranges of quantities); @atLeast and @atMost (for uncertain/imprecise quantities). ---- The trouble with this is that we also decided to add @precision to both att.dimensions and att.editLike. Adding (which is a member of att.editLike) to att.dimensions would thus give it the same attribute twice. Suggestions? From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jun 21 15:52:23 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:52:23 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] FR 1927987: named time period Message-ID: <485D5BF7.6050402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I'm still hoping for an example of a named time period.... From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jun 21 15:54:35 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 20:54:35 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] FR 1927987: named time period In-Reply-To: <485D5BF7.6050402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485D5BF7.6050402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <485D5C7B.8080707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou Burnard wrote: > I'm still hoping for an example of a named time period.... > see P5/Test/aphrodisias.xml -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jun 21 18:39:12 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 23:39:12 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] layout of datatypes etc In-Reply-To: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <485D8310.80203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'd be glad of opinions on these pages, please: > > * table of contents at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/index-toc.html I'm not against the idea of this use of javascript in particular, it works quite well. What bothers me is that when you first come to it, unless you already know a lot about what the TEI is about, you have to expand the first level of all three sections. Maybe the first level should be unexpanded to begin with? > * list of uses of datatype at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-data.pointer.html > > I have tried to do some of what we discussed in Ireland and just > after, with some difficulty. I want to get this sorted, tho. This is fairly cool, and will now be used as an example in my 8min talk in the TEI session in DH. ;-) Since I happen to be talking about URI-based pointing. What I'd suggest: is there a way to make 'xsd:anyURI' in the declaration a link to a page about this in a similar way, importing in the xsd description of what anyURI means and listing what datatypes are xsd:anyURI (i.e. it isn't just data.pointer which are xsd:anyURI). Only thoughts I had atm. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 06:58:14 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:58:14 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] layout of datatypes etc In-Reply-To: <485D8310.80203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485D8310.80203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <485E3046.8010404@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > > I'm not against the idea of this use of javascript in particular, it > works quite well. What bothers me is that when you first come to it, > unless you already know a lot about what the TEI is about, you have to > expand the first level of all three sections. Maybe the first level > should be unexpanded to begin with? I'll see if I can work out how. poxy jQuery is very clever, but takes some getting used to. > What I'd suggest: is there a way to make 'xsd:anyURI' in the > declaration a link to a page about this in a similar way, importing in > the xsd description of what anyURI means and listing what datatypes > are xsd:anyURI (i.e. it isn't just data.pointer which are xsd:anyURI). I see what you mean. no promises, but will see what I can do. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 22 09:48:52 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 15:48:52 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] layout of datatypes etc In-Reply-To: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <485E5844.7090300@xs4all.nl> Sebastian Rahtz schreef: > I'd be glad of opinions on these pages, please: > > * table of contents at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/index-toc.html It seems rather slow to me. I'm afraid I would like a static overview TOC linked to a static detailed TOC better. If you do this, can you remember the last state I left it in? So that if one returns from a chapter that one selected, one doesn't return to the initial state? > * list of uses of datatype at > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-data.pointer.html Seems very useful Peter From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 12:26:38 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 17:26:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] layout of datatypes etc In-Reply-To: <485E5844.7090300@xs4all.nl> References: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485E5844.7090300@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <485E7D3E.4090001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Peter Boot wrote: > > It seems rather slow to me. I'm afraid I would like a static overview > TOC linked to a static detailed TOC better. I am reinvestigating > If you do this, can you remember the last state I left it in? So that > if one returns from a chapter that one selected, one doesn't return to > the initial state? that library should do this, but it does not seem to be happening -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 13:49:03 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:49:03 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] layout of datatypes etc In-Reply-To: <485E5844.7090300@xs4all.nl> References: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485E5844.7090300@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <485E908F.6050404@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I have done some changes, dropped the expandable tree, and implemented some multicolumn lists to save some screen space. * TOC: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/index-toc.html is the top part too small and cramped? * Catalogue of attributes: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/REF-ATTS.html this is new * Datatype: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-data.pointer.html this is rearranged I'd appreciate some testing of these on browsers other than Firefox. If these are acceptable, we're almost ready for release. I have not been able to meet James' request yet, however. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 14:39:15 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:39:15 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] layout of datatypes etc In-Reply-To: <485E908F.6050404@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485E5844.7090300@xs4all.nl> <485E908F.6050404@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <485E9C53.1020706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I have done some changes, dropped the expandable tree, > and implemented some multicolumn lists to save some screen space. > > * TOC: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/index-toc.html > > is the top part too small and cramped? Looks confusing to me to have 3 columns then two columns then 3 columns. > > * Catalogue of attributes: > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/REF-ATTS.html > > this is new Very useful, though seems like a lot of screen real estate is wasted on the right-hand side. Any useful way to do columns here? Not sure. > > * Datatype: > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-data.pointer.html > > this is rearranged The columns look better. > If these are acceptable, we're almost ready for release. I have not > been able to meet James' request yet, however. That's fine, they were just suggestions. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 14:41:35 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:41:35 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] layout of datatypes etc In-Reply-To: <485E9C53.1020706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485E5844.7090300@xs4all.nl> <485E908F.6050404@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485E9C53.1020706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <485E9CDF.9020503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > > Looks confusing to me to have 3 columns then two columns then 3 columns. can change them all to 2 if preferred. I didn't think 3 would fit for the body > Very useful, though seems like a lot of screen real estate is wasted > on the right-hand side. Any useful way to do columns here? Not sure. I might try columns, but that JS code is fairly iffy. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 22 14:54:18 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:54:18 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] layout of datatypes etc In-Reply-To: <485E908F.6050404@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485E5844.7090300@xs4all.nl> <485E908F.6050404@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <485E9FDA.1010906@xs4all.nl> Sebastian Rahtz schreef: > I have done some changes, dropped the expandable tree, > and implemented some multicolumn lists to save some screen space. > > * TOC: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/index-toc.html > > is the top part too small and cramped? I like this. However, I include an attachment (suppose it will make it to you if not to the list) that shows how this looks in IE: texts arte displayed on top of each other. > * Catalogue of attributes: > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/REF-ATTS.html I would like columns here. > > this is new > > * Datatype: > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-data.pointer.html Looks very good. The other pages look OK in IE. Peter From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Jun 22 14:55:55 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:55:55 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] layout of datatypes etc In-Reply-To: <485E9FDA.1010906@xs4all.nl> References: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485E5844.7090300@xs4all.nl> <485E908F.6050404@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485E9FDA.1010906@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <485EA03B.3090405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Peter Boot wrote: > However, I include an attachment (suppose it will make it to you if > not to the list) that shows how this looks in IE: texts arte displayed > on top of each other. oh, GRRRR. I hate the web sometimes.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Jun 23 22:33:07 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] layout of datatypes etc In-Reply-To: <485EA03B.3090405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485E5844.7090300@xs4all.nl> <485E908F.6050404@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485E9FDA.1010906@xs4all.nl> <485EA03B.3090405@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jun 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Peter Boot wrote: >> However, I include an attachment (suppose it will make it to you if >> not to the list) that shows how this looks in IE: texts arte displayed >> on top of each other. > oh, GRRRR. I hate the web sometimes.... Yes, I am seeing the same behavior. The problem is somewhere in the Javascript, columnlist.js. Wish I were smart enough with Javascript + CSS to be able to diagnose, but MSIE does not seem to be handling the changes to margin-top properly. I was thinking you could do but that doesn't quite work, as then Firefox won't load the script. -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Jun 23 22:35:55 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 22:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] layout of datatypes etc In-Reply-To: <485E9CDF.9020503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485D5A93.3010903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485E5844.7090300@xs4all.nl> <485E908F.6050404@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485E9C53.1020706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485E9CDF.9020503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: I agree, from the point of view of layout, the number of columns for Front Matter / Text body / Back Matter does need to be the same, and with the same margins. On Sun, 22 Jun 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > James Cummings wrote: >> >> Looks confusing to me to have 3 columns then two columns then 3 columns. > can change them all to 2 if preferred. I didn't think > 3 would fit for the body >> Very useful, though seems like a lot of screen real estate is wasted >> on the right-hand side. Any useful way to do columns here? Not sure. > I might try columns, but that JS code is fairly iffy. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Jun 23 23:04:38 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:04:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <485D3FDC.8090505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> <5DFD4171-5B91-43B7-9975-7F8D1CDC0CAF@loria.fr> <484E5215.1050500@kcl.ac.uk> <485D1730.2010801@kcl.ac.uk> <485D3FDC.8090505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 2008, Lou Burnard wrote: >> - All: Note that the tei council annual reports for 2006 and 2007 are >> missing from the website: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Reports/ >> > Yes. Who's maintaining that website, I ask? I should probably be the designated person to add anything Council-related. In any case I have updated the Reports page with 2006 and (informal) 2007 reports. > Anyway, the 2006 report is here: > > http://www.tei-c.org/Membership/Meetings/2006-Victoria/mm06councilreport.xml > > In 2007, the chair didn't table a written report to members (instead > we gave a rather fine presentation about P5); there was a brief oral > report in the business meeting, reported in the minutes from that > which are at > http://www.tei-c.org/Membership/Meetings/2007-Maryland/mm44.xml > >> > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Jun 23 23:09:26 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 23:09:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: <485D1730.2010801@kcl.ac.uk> References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> <5DFD4171-5B91-43B7-9975-7F8D1CDC0CAF@loria.fr> <484E5215.1050500@kcl.ac.uk> <485D1730.2010801@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 2008, Arianna Ciula wrote: > Dear all, > > please find below a possible outline for my presentation at DH this year > and let me know what you think. I have some questions still: > > - David: is it right to say that the Correspondence workgroup has become > a SIG? I don't think so... Yes, it has received approval. Arianna, I will forward separately Laurent's note to Susan Schreibman about this. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 05:19:43 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:19:43 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI panel at DH In-Reply-To: References: <484D00C0.9070404@kcl.ac.uk> <20080609182334.A90CAEB054@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <484E4433.3070009@kcl.ac.uk> <5DFD4171-5B91-43B7-9975-7F8D1CDC0CAF@loria.fr> <484E5215.1050500@kcl.ac.uk> <485D1730.2010801@kcl.ac.uk> <485D3FDC.8090505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4860BC2F.20001@kcl.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > I should probably be the designated person to add anything > Council-related. In any case I have updated the Reports page > with 2006 and (informal) 2007 reports. Thank you. Ariana > >> Anyway, the 2006 report is here: >> >> http://www.tei-c.org/Membership/Meetings/2006-Victoria/mm06councilreport.xml >> >> In 2007, the chair didn't table a written report to members (instead >> we gave a rather fine presentation about P5); there was a brief oral >> report in the business meeting, reported in the minutes from that >> which are at >> http://www.tei-c.org/Membership/Meetings/2007-Maryland/mm44.xml >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jun 24 15:49:42 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:49:42 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] attribute lists In-Reply-To: <22011.194.171.119.28.1207912971.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <22011.194.171.119.28.1207912971.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48614FD6.6000300@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I have updated http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/index.html and points south. The TOC has reverted to the system we had before, but reimplemented using jQuery. Appendix D uses a table layout Unless I hear from you all otherwise, I propose to make no further changes to layout for the imminent release (due on July 4th). -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jun 25 09:42:39 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 14:42:39 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] FR 1927987: named time period In-Reply-To: <485D5BF7.6050402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485D5BF7.6050402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48624B4F.3020705@kcl.ac.uk> Sorry...I know you are... Arianna Lou Burnard wrote: > I'm still hoping for an example of a named time period.... > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jun 30 10:02:37 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 15:02:37 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] P5 1.1.0 Message-ID: <4868E77D.6050705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I'm proposing to make the release on 4th July (well, maybe 5th), so if anyone knows of mistakes so far uncorrected, now is the time to squeak -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Tue Jul 1 08:49:19 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 14:49:19 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] P4 to P5: figure no longer allowed after div? Message-ID: <486A27CF.2050207@xs4all.nl> One of the things that Brett brings up in SF feature request 1900115 is the issue of figures in div. It appears that the following is valid in P4

but not in P5. I just verified this using Pizza chef and Roma generated dtd's. On the other hand, placing the figure before the div, as in

is valid in both P4 and P5. The situation is similar with respect to numbered div's. I know there are people that feel this is the correct behaviour with paragraphs rather than figures. Has there been a conscious decision to tighten the schemas in this respect, or could it be an oversight? Or am I missing something? Peter From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jul 1 10:40:10 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 15:40:10 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] P5 1.1.0 In-Reply-To: <4868E77D.6050705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4868E77D.6050705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486A41CA.5020205@kcl.ac.uk> Hi, this is not a report of a mistake, but rather a feature that I'd like to see implemented if possible. There are two navigation menus in the appendixes (right and bottom of the page) and they both link back to the table of Content (and home) and previous/next appendix. I wander whether the menu on the right could contain links to all the appendixes rather than prev and next only. Arianna Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'm proposing to make the release on 4th July (well, maybe 5th), so if > anyone knows of mistakes so far uncorrected, now is the time > to squeak > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jul 1 10:56:18 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 15:56:18 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] see FR 1925125 In-Reply-To: <485D5B5C.1060900@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485D5B5C.1060900@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486A4592.3060208@kcl.ac.uk> Why did we decide to add @precision to att.editLike? Surely we only need @precision when the element supports a number attribute (@value, @quantity, aut sim.), and in that case the element should be a member of att.dimensions anyway, shouldn't it? In any case, which elements in att.editLike were we specifically thinking need @precision? G Lou Burnard a ?crit : > Gabriel proposed the following two changes as resolution for this ticket > after the last Council: > > ---- > (1) @extent and @unit on gap are to be suppressed, and instead gap will be > made a member of att.dimensions, which gives it @quantity and @unit. > > (2) att.dimensions is to be extended by the addition of attributes: @from > and @to (to indicate ranges of quantities); @atLeast and @atMost (for > uncertain/imprecise quantities). > ---- > > The trouble with this is that we also decided to add @precision to both att.dimensions and att.editLike. > Adding (which is a member of att.editLike) to att.dimensions would thus give it the same attribute twice. > > Suggestions? -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jul 1 11:07:45 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:07:45 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] FR 1927987: named time period In-Reply-To: <485D5C7B.8080707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485D5BF7.6050402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485D5C7B.8080707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486A4841.6010106@kcl.ac.uk> Just out of interest, Sebastian, does that file still give "Christian period" as from "A.D. 0 onwards"? I'd like to correct that before anyone uses it as an example... How about Hellenistic period: -0323 to -0031 G Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Lou Burnard wrote: >> I'm still hoping for an example of a named time period.... >> > see P5/Test/aphrodisias.xml > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Jul 2 09:32:20 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 09:32:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Test message -- ignore Message-ID: Arianna is reporting problems with the list. This is just a test to see whether the email is relayed... -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 10:19:30 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Ciula, Arianna) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:19:30 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: abuse of ] Message-ID: <486B8E72.7000302@kcl.ac.uk> Trying again... -------- Original Message -------- Subject: abuse of Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:08:10 +0100 From: Arianna Ciula To: TEI Council References: <4868E77D.6050705 at oucs.ox.ac.uk> There is actually one mistake (or possibly more than that and therefore something we cannot tackle right now) that has been reported by the following paper at the DH conference in Finland last week: ?yvind Eide and Christian-Emil Ore, 'TEI and cultural heritage ontologies', paper presented at the Digital Humanities conference 2008. If you look at the definition of : '(description) contains a brief description of the intended usage, purpose, or application of its parent element.' it is evident that to use it to contain a description in a much broader sense than the one above is actually abuse. And we do this especially with elements that use model.labelLike. See for instance the or the first example or the new climate example more evidently than others in the ND chapter. ?yvind and Christian -together with other things- proposed the introduction of a new more generic element called . I I suppose it is wiser to wait for a more formal proposal from them and the SIG ontologies, so we can't deal with this right now, but thought I pointed this out to the rest of the council that wasn't at DH. Arianna Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'm proposing to make the release on 4th July (well, maybe 5th), so if > anyone knows of mistakes so far uncorrected, now is the time > to squeak > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 10:20:49 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Ciula, Arianna) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:20:49 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: 22.089 call for proposals: ESSLLI 2009] Message-ID: <486B8EC1.6050607@kcl.ac.uk> and this one too. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Fwd: 22.089 call for proposals: ESSLLI 2009] Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 07:25:25 +0100 From: Ciula, Arianna To: TEI Council What would people think about submitting a proposal for a TEI workshop to ESSLI 2009 summer school (in France next year if I am not mistaken)? I have attended this school few years ago now and at the time they had a course on XML. It's fairly well attended and the focus is mainly linguistic of course. I think this could be another step to our outreaching aim. Arianna -------- Original Message -------- Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:08:38 +0100 From: Richard Moot Subject: ESSLLI 2009 Call for Proposals 21st European Summer School in Logic, Language and Information ESSLLI 2009 Monday, 20 July --- Friday, 31 July 2009 Bordeaux, France %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% CALL FOR COURSE and WORKSHOP PROPOSALS -------------------------------------- The European Summer School in Logic, Language and Information (ESSLLI) is organized every year by the Association for Logic, Language and Information (FoLLI, http://www.folli.org) in different sites around Europe. The main focus of ESSLLI is on the interface between linguistics, logic and computation. ESSLLI offers foundational, introductory and advanced courses, as well as workshops, covering a wide variety of topics within the three areas of interest: Language and Computation, Language and Logic, and Logic and Computation. Previous summer schools have been highly successful, attracting up to 500 students from Europe and elsewhere. The school has developed into an important meeting place and forum for discussion for students and researchers interested in the interdisciplinary study of Logic, Language and Information. The ESSLLI 2009 Program Committee invites proposals for foundational, introductory, and advanced courses, and for workshops for the 21st annual Summer School in the broad interdisciplinary area connecting logic, linguistics, computer science and the cognitive sciences. The Summer School program is organized around the components. - Language and Computation - Language and Logic - Logic and Computation We also welcome proposals that do not exactly fit one of these there categories. PROPOSAL SUBMISSION: Proposals should be submitted through a web form available at http://www.folli.org/submission.php All proposals should be submitted no later than ******* Monday, September 1, 2008 ******* [...] -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 10:35:31 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:35:31 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: abuse of ] In-Reply-To: <486B8E72.7000302@kcl.ac.uk> References: <486B8E72.7000302@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486B9233.9090403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> that sort of pervasive change really does need time for reflection! -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 05:19:06 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Ciula, Arianna) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:19:06 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: abuse of ] Message-ID: <486B480A.1030702@kcl.ac.uk> It look like the following messagebelow never made it to the list. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: abuse of Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:08:10 +0100 From: Arianna Ciula To: TEI Council References: <4868E77D.6050705 at oucs.ox.ac.uk> There is actually one mistake (or possibly more than that and therefore something we cannot tackle right now) that has been reported by the following paper at the DH conference in Finland last week: ?yvind Eide and Christian-Emil Ore, 'TEI and cultural heritage ontologies', paper presented at the Digital Humanities conference 2008. If you look at the definition of : '(description) contains a brief description of the intended usage, purpose, or application of its parent element.' it is evident that to use it to contain a description in a much broader sense than the one above is actually abuse. And we do this especially with elements that use model.labelLike. See for instance the or the first example or the new climate example more evidently than others in the ND chapter. ?yvind and Christian -together with other things- proposed the introduction of a new more generic element called . I I suppose it is wiser to wait for a more formal proposal from them and the SIG ontologies, so we can't deal with this right now, but thought I pointed this out to the rest of the council that wasn't at DH. Arianna Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'm proposing to make the release on 4th July (well, maybe 5th), so if > anyone knows of mistakes so far uncorrected, now is the time > to squeak > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 05:19:57 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Ciula, Arianna) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:19:57 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: [Fwd: 22.089 call for proposals: ESSLLI 2009]] Message-ID: <486B483D.8020504@kcl.ac.uk> Same happened to this... -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Fwd: 22.089 call for proposals: ESSLLI 2009] Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 07:25:25 +0100 From: Ciula, Arianna To: TEI Council What would people think about submitting a proposal for a TEI workshop to ESSLI 2009 summer school (in France next year if I am not mistaken)? I have attended this school few years ago now and at the time they had a course on XML. It's fairly well attended and the focus is mainly linguistic of course. I think this could be another step to our outreaching aim. Arianna -------- Original Message -------- Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:08:38 +0100 From: Richard Moot Subject: ESSLLI 2009 Call for Proposals 21st European Summer School in Logic, Language and Information ESSLLI 2009 Monday, 20 July --- Friday, 31 July 2009 Bordeaux, France %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% CALL FOR COURSE and WORKSHOP PROPOSALS -------------------------------------- The European Summer School in Logic, Language and Information (ESSLLI) is organized every year by the Association for Logic, Language and Information (FoLLI, http://www.folli.org) in different sites around Europe. The main focus of ESSLLI is on the interface between linguistics, logic and computation. ESSLLI offers foundational, introductory and advanced courses, as well as workshops, covering a wide variety of topics within the three areas of interest: Language and Computation, Language and Logic, and Logic and Computation. Previous summer schools have been highly successful, attracting up to 500 students from Europe and elsewhere. The school has developed into an important meeting place and forum for discussion for students and researchers interested in the interdisciplinary study of Logic, Language and Information. The ESSLLI 2009 Program Committee invites proposals for foundational, introductory, and advanced courses, and for workshops for the 21st annual Summer School in the broad interdisciplinary area connecting logic, linguistics, computer science and the cognitive sciences. The Summer School program is organized around the components. - Language and Computation - Language and Logic - Logic and Computation We also welcome proposals that do not exactly fit one of these there categories. PROPOSAL SUBMISSION: Proposals should be submitted through a web form available at http://www.folli.org/submission.php All proposals should be submitted no later than ******* Monday, September 1, 2008 ******* [...] -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Jul 2 10:49:41 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:49:41 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: abuse of ] In-Reply-To: <486B480A.1030702@kcl.ac.uk> References: <486B480A.1030702@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <16F76BD0-7176-4940-9A0E-6F6BD78F21C7@loria.fr> It has already... Le 2 juil. 08 ? 11:19, Ciula, Arianna a ?crit : > It look like the following messagebelow never made it to the list. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: abuse of > Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:08:10 +0100 > From: Arianna Ciula > To: TEI Council > References: <4868E77D.6050705 at oucs.ox.ac.uk> > > There is actually one mistake (or possibly more than that and > therefore > something we cannot tackle right now) that has been reported by the > following paper at the DH conference in Finland last week: > ?yvind Eide and Christian-Emil Ore, 'TEI and cultural heritage > ontologies', paper presented at the Digital Humanities conference > 2008. > > If you look at the definition of : > '(description) contains a brief description of the intended usage, > purpose, or application of its parent element.' > > it is evident that to use it to contain a description in a much > broader > sense than the one above is actually abuse. And we do this especially > with elements that use model.labelLike. See for instance the type="marriage" when="1859-04-26"> or the first example or > the new > climate example more evidently than others in the ND chapter. > > ?yvind and Christian -together with other things- proposed the > introduction of a new more generic element called . I I > suppose it is wiser to wait for a more formal proposal from them > and the > SIG ontologies, so we can't deal with this right now, but thought I > pointed this out to the rest of the council that wasn't at DH. > > Arianna > > Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> I'm proposing to make the release on 4th July (well, maybe 5th), >> so if >> anyone knows of mistakes so far uncorrected, now is the time >> to squeak >> >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 10:51:33 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:51:33 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: abuse of ] In-Reply-To: <486B8E72.7000302@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20080702145133.EB8DC94047@webmail220.herald.ox.ac.uk> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080702/870f98b5/attachment.ksh From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 10:50:00 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:50:00 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: abuse of ] In-Reply-To: <16F76BD0-7176-4940-9A0E-6F6BD78F21C7@loria.fr> References: <486B480A.1030702@kcl.ac.uk> <16F76BD0-7176-4940-9A0E-6F6BD78F21C7@loria.fr> Message-ID: <486B9598.9090001@kcl.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > It has already... Well now everything is passing through....sorry for the duplication. Arianna > > Le 2 juil. 08 ? 11:19, Ciula, Arianna a ?crit : > >> It look like the following messagebelow never made it to the list. >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: abuse of >> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:08:10 +0100 >> From: Arianna Ciula >> To: TEI Council >> References: <4868E77D.6050705 at oucs.ox.ac.uk> >> >> There is actually one mistake (or possibly more than that and >> therefore >> something we cannot tackle right now) that has been reported by the >> following paper at the DH conference in Finland last week: >> ?yvind Eide and Christian-Emil Ore, 'TEI and cultural heritage >> ontologies', paper presented at the Digital Humanities conference >> 2008. >> >> If you look at the definition of : >> '(description) contains a brief description of the intended usage, >> purpose, or application of its parent element.' >> >> it is evident that to use it to contain a description in a much >> broader >> sense than the one above is actually abuse. And we do this especially >> with elements that use model.labelLike. See for instance the > type="marriage" when="1859-04-26"> or the first example or >> the new >> climate example more evidently than others in the ND chapter. >> >> ?yvind and Christian -together with other things- proposed the >> introduction of a new more generic element called . I I >> suppose it is wiser to wait for a more formal proposal from them >> and the >> SIG ontologies, so we can't deal with this right now, but thought I >> pointed this out to the rest of the council that wasn't at DH. >> >> Arianna >> >> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> I'm proposing to make the release on 4th July (well, maybe 5th), >>> so if >>> anyone knows of mistakes so far uncorrected, now is the time >>> to squeak >>> >>> -- >>> Sebastian Rahtz >>> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> -- >> Dr Arianna Ciula >> Research Associate >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 2nd Floor >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ >> >> >> -- >> Dr Arianna Ciula >> Research Associate >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 2nd Floor >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 10:54:35 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Ciula, Arianna) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:54:35 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: abuse of ] In-Reply-To: <20080702145133.EB8DC94047@webmail220.herald.ox.ac.uk> References: <20080702145133.EB8DC94047@webmail220.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486B96AB.7060901@kcl.ac.uk> The book of abstract is available at http://www.ekl.oulu.fi/dh2008/Digital%20Humanities%202008%20Book%20of%20Abstracts.pdf and the abstract of the paper is there; however the argument (and proposal) was developed much further in the actual paper. As I said, a full proposal will be the future work of the authors in conjunction with the SIG ontologies...so no hurry, just wanted to report it. We always knew anyway that the business was done a bit in a rush. Arianna Lou Burnard wrote: > I agree that the way the descriptive information in some of the new ND elements > is handled may need more thought, but I don't think the use of is that > abusive. But I havent had the chance to see the argument -- is the paper you > referenced available online anywhere? > > > n message <486B8E72.7000302 at kcl.ac.uk> "Ciula, Arianna" > writes: >> Trying again... >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: abuse of >> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:08:10 +0100 >> From: Arianna Ciula >> To: TEI Council >> References: <4868E77D.6050705 at oucs.ox.ac.uk> >> >> There is actually one mistake (or possibly more than that and therefore >> something we cannot tackle right now) that has been reported by the >> following paper at the DH conference in Finland last week: >> ??yvind Eide and Christian-Emil Ore, 'TEI and cultural heritage >> ontologies', paper presented at the Digital Humanities conference 2008. >> >> If you look at the definition of : >> '(description) contains a brief description of the intended usage, >> purpose, or application of its parent element.' >> >> it is evident that to use it to contain a description in a much broader >> sense than the one above is actually abuse. And we do this especially >> with elements that use model.labelLike. See for instance the > type="marriage" when="1859-04-26"> or the first example or the new >> climate example more evidently than others in the ND chapter. >> >> ??yvind and Christian -together with other things- proposed the >> introduction of a new more generic element called . I I >> suppose it is wiser to wait for a more formal proposal from them and the >> SIG ontologies, so we can't deal with this right now, but thought I >> pointed this out to the rest of the council that wasn't at DH. >> >> Arianna >> >> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> I'm proposing to make the release on 4th July (well, maybe 5th), so if >>> anyone knows of mistakes so far uncorrected, now is the time >>> to squeak >>> >>> -- >>> Sebastian Rahtz >>> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> -- >> Dr Arianna Ciula >> Research Associate >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 2nd Floor >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ >> >> >> -- >> Dr Arianna Ciula >> Research Associate >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 2nd Floor >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From pboot at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 2 11:40:55 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 17:40:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: abuse of ] Message-ID: <11213.194.171.119.28.1215013255.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Wouldn't it be lot simpler to just widen the definition of ? The function of a description does not depend on what is described. There no need to act right now, but do we need to wait for a proposal from the sig? With the imminent release, we're introducing another location where can be used (in ). Peter > Trying again... > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: abuse of > Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:08:10 +0100 > From: Arianna Ciula > To: TEI Council > References: <4868E77D.6050705 at oucs.ox.ac.uk> > > There is actually one mistake (or possibly more than that and therefore > something we cannot tackle right now) that has been reported by the > following paper at the DH conference in Finland last week: > ??yvind Eide and Christian-Emil Ore, 'TEI and cultural heritage > ontologies', paper presented at the Digital Humanities conference 2008. > > If you look at the definition of : > '(description) contains a brief description of the intended usage, > purpose, or application of its parent element.' > > it is evident that to use it to contain a description in a much broader > sense than the one above is actually abuse. And we do this especially > with elements that use model.labelLike. See for instance the type="marriage" when="1859-04-26"> or the first example or the new > climate example more evidently than others in the ND chapter. > > ??yvind and Christian -together with other things- proposed the > introduction of a new more generic element called . I I > suppose it is wiser to wait for a more formal proposal from them and the > SIG ontologies, so we can't deal with this right now, but thought I > pointed this out to the rest of the council that wasn't at DH. > > Arianna > > Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> I'm proposing to make the release on 4th July (well, maybe 5th), so if >> anyone knows of mistakes so far uncorrected, now is the time >> to squeak >> >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 11:58:06 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Ciula, Arianna) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:58:06 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: abuse of ] In-Reply-To: <11213.194.171.119.28.1215013255.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <11213.194.171.119.28.1215013255.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <486BA58E.1040500@kcl.ac.uk> Peter Boot wrote: > Wouldn't it be lot simpler to just widen the definition of ? I did think about this, but because is used by (an probably originated in?) the documentation module to describe elements in a very specific way, I assumed there was the case for a more general , but I may be wrong of course. The > function of a description does not depend on what is described. Yes, I agree, but as I said above, it seems to me the the function itself is changed here: from a more or less formal description (of a tag usage) to the narrative that explains a sequence of events or similar (e.g. the description of a wedding party to state that a marriage happened). > > There no need to act right now, but do we need to wait for a proposal from > the sig? No we don't, but I didn't want to move the waters too much before Christian and Oyvinde had a chance to make their proposal to us. With the imminent release, we're introducing another location > where can be used (in ). Good point. What others think? I would prefer not to rush things, but we definitively need to get back in track, so that this sort of discussion can happen at the right time and may be in a more structured manner. Arianna > > Peter > >> Trying again... >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: abuse of >> Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:08:10 +0100 >> From: Arianna Ciula >> To: TEI Council >> References: <4868E77D.6050705 at oucs.ox.ac.uk> >> >> There is actually one mistake (or possibly more than that and therefore >> something we cannot tackle right now) that has been reported by the >> following paper at the DH conference in Finland last week: >> ??yvind Eide and Christian-Emil Ore, 'TEI and cultural heritage >> ontologies', paper presented at the Digital Humanities conference 2008. >> >> If you look at the definition of : >> '(description) contains a brief description of the intended usage, >> purpose, or application of its parent element.' >> >> it is evident that to use it to contain a description in a much broader >> sense than the one above is actually abuse. And we do this especially >> with elements that use model.labelLike. See for instance the > type="marriage" when="1859-04-26"> or the first example or the new >> climate example more evidently than others in the ND chapter. >> >> ??yvind and Christian -together with other things- proposed the >> introduction of a new more generic element called . I I >> suppose it is wiser to wait for a more formal proposal from them and the >> SIG ontologies, so we can't deal with this right now, but thought I >> pointed this out to the rest of the council that wasn't at DH. >> >> Arianna >> >> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> I'm proposing to make the release on 4th July (well, maybe 5th), so if >>> anyone knows of mistakes so far uncorrected, now is the time >>> to squeak >>> >>> -- >>> Sebastian Rahtz >>> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> -- >> Dr Arianna Ciula >> Research Associate >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 2nd Floor >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ >> >> >> -- >> Dr Arianna Ciula >> Research Associate >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 2nd Floor >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL (UK) >> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 >> http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> > > -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jul 1 11:18:37 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:18:37 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] FR 1927987: named time period In-Reply-To: <486A4841.6010106@kcl.ac.uk> References: <485D5BF7.6050402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485D5C7B.8080707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <486A4841.6010106@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486A4ACD.3010506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Just out of interest, Sebastian, does that file still give "Christian > period" as from "A.D. 0 onwards"? I'd like to correct that before anyone > uses it as an example... > probably. what would you like it to say? > How about Hellenistic period: -0323 to -0031 > > indeed, its not hard to think of examples, not sure what the delay is -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 12:13:26 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 17:13:26 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] FR 1927987: named time period In-Reply-To: <486A4ACD.3010506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <485D5BF7.6050402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485D5C7B.8080707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <486A4841.6010106@kcl.ac.uk> <486A4ACD.3010506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486BA926.4070307@kcl.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > probably. what would you like it to say? >> How about Hellenistic period: -0323 to -0031 >> >> > indeed, its not hard to think of examples, not > sure what the delay is My email is playing bad tricks so I am receiving some of this only now. The delay is because although you may have hundreds of examples, we haven't formalised yet how to express a taxonomy of periods i.e. you may refer from the text (using ) to the Hellenistic period expressed in a formal way, but where? I was thinking of using the element (and I think this came out at the last council meeting too) for this and then wanted to ask suggestions from the workgroup, but never went around actually doing it. Just because this was assigned to me doesn't mean you cannot do it... :) Arianna > > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jul 1 11:08:10 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 16:08:10 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] abuse of In-Reply-To: <4868E77D.6050705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4868E77D.6050705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486A485A.1000706@kcl.ac.uk> There is actually one mistake (or possibly more than that and therefore something we cannot tackle right now) that has been reported by the following paper at the DH conference in Finland last week: ?yvind Eide and Christian-Emil Ore, 'TEI and cultural heritage ontologies', paper presented at the Digital Humanities conference 2008. If you look at the definition of : '(description) contains a brief description of the intended usage, purpose, or application of its parent element.' it is evident that to use it to contain a description in a much broader sense than the one above is actually abuse. And we do this especially with elements that use model.labelLike. See for instance the or the first example or the new climate example more evidently than others in the ND chapter. ?yvind and Christian -together with other things- proposed the introduction of a new more generic element called . I I suppose it is wiser to wait for a more formal proposal from them and the SIG ontologies, so we can't deal with this right now, but thought I pointed this out to the rest of the council that wasn't at DH. Arianna Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'm proposing to make the release on 4th July (well, maybe 5th), so if > anyone knows of mistakes so far uncorrected, now is the time > to squeak > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 12:22:13 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:22:13 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] FR 1927987: named time period In-Reply-To: <486BA926.4070307@kcl.ac.uk> References: <485D5BF7.6050402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <485D5C7B.8080707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <486A4841.6010106@kcl.ac.uk> <486A4ACD.3010506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <486BA926.4070307@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486BAB35.8080401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Arianna Ciula wrote: > > The delay is because although you may have hundreds of examples, we > haven't formalised yet how to express a taxonomy of periods i.e. you > may refer from the text (using ) to the Hellenistic period > expressed in a formal way, but where? I was thinking of using the > element (and I think this came out at the last council > meeting too) for this and then wanted to ask suggestions from the > workgroup, but never went around actually doing it. see P5/Test/aphrodisias2.xml for a @period linked to a -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 12:25:12 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:25:12 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] in MS Message-ID: <486BABE8.3070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I'd really quite like to make repeatable, as that seems to be the intention of the prose about it. Does the Council authorize such a last-minute change? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Jul 2 12:39:59 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] in MS In-Reply-To: <486BABE8.3070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <486BABE8.3070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: In the content model for : http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-supportDesc.html there are several elements that are permitted zero or one times: ( support?, extent?, foliation?, collation?, condition? ) In the Guidelines at 10.7 ("Physical Description"), the examples for and rather confusingly suggest that more than one can be used, although I think the intent is to give examples of different ways of using the single element. But at 10.7.1.4 http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/MS.html#msphfo it is clear that there *should* be more than one in some cases, so that at least needs to be reflected in the content model of . So I'd vote to change. On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I'd really quite like to make repeatable, as that > seems to be the intention of the prose about it. Does the Council > authorize such a last-minute change? > > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 13:01:18 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 18:01:18 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] in MS In-Reply-To: References: <486BABE8.3070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486BB45E.8070700@kcl.ac.uk> I agree foliation should be definitively repeatable, but I can see an argument for making others repeatable too ...but that's going too far for now... I also agree with David that it may seem confusing to have snippets of text all in one sequence without interruption within the same example box, especially when that sequence means 'this belong to the same document' in other cases; may be we can differentiate those examples stylistically somehow? this is a job that requires editing the examples one by one though...so not for now... I think, in the medium term, there is room for improving the examples in general e.g. making them citable as Dan, I think, pointed out. Arianna David Sewell wrote: > In the content model for : > > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-supportDesc.html > > there are several elements that are permitted zero or one times: > > ( support?, extent?, foliation?, collation?, condition? ) > > In the Guidelines at 10.7 ("Physical Description"), the examples for > and rather confusingly suggest that more than > one can be used, although I think the intent is to give examples of > different ways of using the single element. But at 10.7.1.4 > > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/MS.html#msphfo > > it is clear that there *should* be more than one in some > cases, so that at least needs to be reflected in the content model of > . So I'd vote to change. > > On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> I'd really quite like to make repeatable, as that >> seems to be the intention of the prose about it. Does the Council >> authorize such a last-minute change? >> >> >> > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jul 2 13:08:40 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 18:08:40 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] in MS In-Reply-To: <486BB45E.8070700@kcl.ac.uk> References: <486BABE8.3070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <486BB45E.8070700@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486BB618.5010205@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Arianna Ciula wrote: > I agree foliation should be definitively repeatable, but I can see an > argument for making others repeatable too ...but that's going too far > for now... > this case of text contradicting schema has been pointed out by a user, which is why I wanted to fix it. if there are other cases of that situation, worth noting them. > I also agree with David that it may seem confusing to have snippets of > text all in one sequence without interruption within the same example > box, especially when that sequence means 'this belong to the same > document' in other cases; may be we can differentiate those examples > stylistically somehow? this is a job that requires editing the examples > one by one though...so not for now... > If there are examples that bother you like this, putting a "stop example... start new example" in the middle is perfectly easy. Then there would be a visible gap. I'd suggest that we don't do this today, however :-} > I think, in the medium term, there is room for improving the examples in > general e.g. making them citable as Dan, I think, pointed out. > I agree. but that needs some experimentation, I think -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 2 13:37:08 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 19:37:08 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Re: P4 to P5: figure no longer allowed after div?] Message-ID: <486BBCC4.4010402@xs4all.nl> this dropped off the list -------- Originele bericht -------- Onderwerp: Re: [tei-council] P4 to P5: figure no longer allowed after div? Datum: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 18:00:05 +0200 (CEST) Van: Peter Boot Aan: Sebastian Rahtz CC: Brett Zamir , Peter Boot Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Brett Zamir wrote: >> The docs say is for quotations. would seem the >> next closest, but doesn't allow
(though it includes >> graphic!). I'd be hesitant to consider just some figures as a >> since they are not really related to the letter they >> follow. > seems to me that we should allow
in , then. We would then have this
I'm not sure that makes sense. Is the figure in a trailer just because it's at the end of the div? Or do we place around it just to make it valid? (Which as yet it isn't). So, re-allow figure in trailer, yes, but why not where it used to be allowed, immediately in
? If it can occur at the beginning, why not at the end? Peter From pboot at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 2 13:45:24 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 19:45:24 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] in MS In-Reply-To: <486BABE8.3070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <486BABE8.3070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486BBEB4.6070703@xs4all.nl> Sebastian Rahtz schreef: > I'd really quite like to make repeatable, as that > seems to be the intention of the prose about it. Does the Council > authorize such a last-minute change? Can't think of a reason why we shouldn't do this. Peter From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jul 1 18:52:31 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 23:52:31 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] P4 to P5: figure no longer allowed after div? In-Reply-To: <486A27CF.2050207@xs4all.nl> References: <486A27CF.2050207@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <486AB52F.1020102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Peter Boot wrote: >
>

>
>
> Hmm. Yes, it is illegal.
is not in model.divBottom. You can do:
if that would help? > > I know there are people that feel this is the correct behaviour with > paragraphs rather than figures. Has there been a conscious decision to > tighten the schemas in this respect, or could it be an oversight? Or am > I missing something? > It was certainly a conscious decision to clean up that
content model. I don't _remember_ excluding
from divBottom, it was more a matter of listing things that _were_ to be allowed. oddly, does not allow
as a child, which looks like an error. allows
content too. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jul 1 14:46:31 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:46:31 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] P5 1.1.0 In-Reply-To: <486A41CA.5020205@kcl.ac.uk> References: <4868E77D.6050705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <486A41CA.5020205@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486A7B87.3040600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Arianna Ciula wrote: > are two navigation menus in the appendixes (right and bottom of the > page) and they both link back to the table of Content (and home) and > previous/next appendix. I wander whether the menu on the right could > contain links to all the appendixes rather than prev and next only. Not very easily, to be honest. That prev and next behaviour is basic to the stylesheets, and it would mean moderately deep hacking. If everyone else says its essential, I'll do it.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Jul 3 02:56:07 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 08:56:07 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] in MS In-Reply-To: <486BABE8.3070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <486BABE8.3070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Sebastian. Give it a 24h reflexion (until this afternoon). If no strong voice is raised, I guess we can implement it. Laurent Le 2 juil. 08 ? 18:25, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > I'd really quite like to make repeatable, as that > seems to be the intention of the prose about it. Does the Council > authorize such a last-minute change? > > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jul 3 09:44:00 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:44:00 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] in MS In-Reply-To: References: <486BABE8.3070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486CD7A0.8000903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > it is clear that there *should* be more than one in some > cases, so that at least needs to be reflected in the content model of > . So I'd vote to change. > > On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> I'd really quite like to make repeatable, as that >> seems to be the intention of the prose about it. Does the Council >> authorize such a last-minute change? I'd also agree that this should be repeatable. I'd also want to suggest that we re-examine the issue of how strict some of the content models are in the msDesc model at some point in the future. It isn't that I don't think that this is useful, but some of them (as with foliation) have the real potential to be repeatable. This seems to be exactly the kind of situation where there is a customisation use-case. Let's pretend that all of the supportDesc children (erm, support, extent, collation, condition, and of course foliation... from memory) were repeatable and allowable in any order. A good example customisation might be to specify some of these not to be repeatable, and to only allow them in a specific order. (i.e. to recreate what the TEI currently has.) But for now, just allowing foliation to be repeatable I can see as a corrigible bug since, as David points out, the prose seems to indicate it should be. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Jul 3 09:49:15 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 15:49:15 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] in MS In-Reply-To: <486CD7A0.8000903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <486BABE8.3070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <486CD7A0.8000903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: I think we do need a feature request entry in any case. Oxford? Laurent Le 3 juil. 08 ? 15:44, James Cummings a ?crit : > David Sewell wrote: >> it is clear that there *should* be more than one in some >> cases, so that at least needs to be reflected in the content model of >> . So I'd vote to change. >> >> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> >>> I'd really quite like to make repeatable, as that >>> seems to be the intention of the prose about it. Does the Council >>> authorize such a last-minute change? > > I'd also agree that this should be repeatable. > > I'd also want to suggest that we re-examine the issue of how strict > some > of the content models are in the msDesc model at some point in the > future. It isn't that I don't think that this is useful, but some of > them (as with foliation) have the real potential to be repeatable. > This > seems to be exactly the kind of situation where there is a > customisation > use-case. Let's pretend that all of the supportDesc children (erm, > support, extent, collation, condition, and of course foliation... from > memory) were repeatable and allowable in any order. A good example > customisation might be to specify some of these not to be repeatable, > and to only allow them in a specific order. (i.e. to recreate what > the > TEI currently has.) > > But for now, just allowing foliation to be repeatable I can see as a > corrigible bug since, as David points out, the prose seems to indicate > it should be. > > -James > > -- > Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford > James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jul 3 10:12:41 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:12:41 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] in MS In-Reply-To: References: <486BABE8.3070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <486CD7A0.8000903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486CDE59.1050608@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > I think we do need a feature request entry in any case. > Oxford? > Laurent I'm happy to enter this, but should it be a feature request or a bug report? Just wanted to check, -James > > Le 3 juil. 08 ? 15:44, James Cummings a ?crit : > >> David Sewell wrote: >>> it is clear that there *should* be more than one in some >>> cases, so that at least needs to be reflected in the content model of >>> . So I'd vote to change. >>> >>> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> >>>> I'd really quite like to make repeatable, as that >>>> seems to be the intention of the prose about it. Does the Council >>>> authorize such a last-minute change? >> >> I'd also agree that this should be repeatable. >> >> I'd also want to suggest that we re-examine the issue of how strict some >> of the content models are in the msDesc model at some point in the >> future. It isn't that I don't think that this is useful, but some of >> them (as with foliation) have the real potential to be repeatable. This >> seems to be exactly the kind of situation where there is a customisation >> use-case. Let's pretend that all of the supportDesc children (erm, >> support, extent, collation, condition, and of course foliation... from >> memory) were repeatable and allowable in any order. A good example >> customisation might be to specify some of these not to be repeatable, >> and to only allow them in a specific order. (i.e. to recreate what the >> TEI currently has.) >> >> But for now, just allowing foliation to be repeatable I can see as a >> corrigible bug since, as David points out, the prose seems to indicate >> it should be. >> >> -James >> >> -- >> Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford >> James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jul 3 10:19:01 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 15:19:01 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] in MS In-Reply-To: <486CDE59.1050608@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <486BABE8.3070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <486CD7A0.8000903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <486CDE59.1050608@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <486CDFD5.8060503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > Laurent Romary wrote: > >> I think we do need a feature request entry in any case. >> Oxford? >> Laurent >> > > I'm happy to enter this, but should it be a feature request or a bug report? > bug report. I'll send you the user message -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jul 5 05:44:02 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2008 10:44:02 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 5: P5 10.3 (fwd) Message-ID: <20080705094402.EB3AD6D002@webmail218.herald.ox.ac.uk> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080705/55a6c394/attachment.ksh From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Jul 7 06:26:04 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:26:04 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Council Telefon conference Message-ID: <0C8B8B36-A87E-4EA1-BCA9-C58B2D92B258@loria.fr> Dear all, I would like to organise a Telecon over the summer to deal with the various issues we have gathered since our last F2F meeting. This could either be this Friday or in early August. Daniel, would you be online to see how we could use your nice tool for planning such a meeting? I am gathering right away possible items for the agenda, and everyone's contributions is welcome. Best, Laurent From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jul 7 07:42:02 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 12:42:02 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Council Telefon conference In-Reply-To: <0C8B8B36-A87E-4EA1-BCA9-C58B2D92B258@loria.fr> References: <0C8B8B36-A87E-4EA1-BCA9-C58B2D92B258@loria.fr> Message-ID: <4872010A.6090406@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > I would like to organise a Telecon over the summer to deal with the > various issues we have gathered since our last F2F meeting. This > could either be this Friday or in early August. Daniel, would you be > online to see how we could use your nice tool for planning such a > meeting? just visit www.meetomatic.com -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Jul 7 09:20:38 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 09:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Council Telefon conference In-Reply-To: <0C8B8B36-A87E-4EA1-BCA9-C58B2D92B258@loria.fr> References: <0C8B8B36-A87E-4EA1-BCA9-C58B2D92B258@loria.fr> Message-ID: I will be out of town doing a workshop on digital editions Friday, so that is impossible for me. Any time after this week and before mid-September is good, however. David On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Laurent Romary wrote: > Dear all, > I would like to organise a Telecon over the summer to deal with the > various issues we have gathered since our last F2F meeting. This > could either be this Friday or in early August. Daniel, would you be > online to see how we could use your nice tool for planning such a > meeting? > > I am gathering right away possible items for the agenda, and > everyone's contributions is welcome. > > Best, > Laurent > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Jul 7 13:14:56 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel Paul O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 11:14:56 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Council Telefon conference In-Reply-To: <4872010A.6090406@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <0C8B8B36-A87E-4EA1-BCA9-C58B2D92B258@loria.fr> <4872010A.6090406@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1215450896.6145.16.camel@wiglaf> I'm setting up a TEI account at meetingwizard right now, so that we'll have a single central registry. On Mon, 2008-07-07 at 12:42 +0100, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Laurent Romary wrote: > > I would like to organise a Telecon over the summer to deal with the > > various issues we have gathered since our last F2F meeting. This > > could either be this Friday or in early August. Daniel, would you be > > online to see how we could use your nice tool for planning such a > > meeting? > just visit www.meetomatic.com > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) Director, Digital Medievalist Project (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) Associate Professor of English Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jul 8 04:27:05 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 09:27:05 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] p5 release Message-ID: <487324D9.6000606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> where is it, you ask? broken, that's where. it takes 6 hours to run a conversion to HTML and then its wrong! I am working on it. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jul 8 18:08:22 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 23:08:22 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] p5 release In-Reply-To: <487324D9.6000606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <487324D9.6000606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4873E556.6090701@kcl.ac.uk> By the way, is there going to be a summary of the corrected bugs/new features for this release available somewhere besides an email on TEI-L? Lots of people asked for this in previous occasions, but I realise that you have been busy with other things, so no pressure, just a question. Arianna Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > where is it, you ask? > > broken, that's where. it takes 6 hours to run a conversion to HTML > and then its wrong! I am working on it. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jul 8 18:13:48 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 23:13:48 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] p5 release In-Reply-To: <4873E556.6090701@kcl.ac.uk> References: <487324D9.6000606@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4873E556.6090701@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4873E69C.2040609@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Arianna Ciula wrote: > By the way, is there going to be a summary of the corrected bugs/new > features for this release available somewhere besides an email on TEI-L? > > Lots of people asked for this in previous occasions, but I realise > that you have been busy with other things, so no pressure, just a > question. m'learned colleague Lou is the pumpkin holder for this task, so I am waiting on him to write the release note. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Wed Jul 9 13:32:46 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 19:32:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [tei-council] Council Telefon conference Message-ID: <5941.84.2.96.208.1215624766.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I'm away on a holiday until July 24. Sorry. Peter > Dear all, > I would like to organise a Telecon over the summer to deal with the > various issues we have gathered since our last F2F meeting. This > could either be this Friday or in early August. Daniel, would you be > online to see how we could use your nice tool for planning such a > meeting? > > I am gathering right away possible items for the agenda, and > everyone's contributions is welcome. > > Best, > Laurent > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk Thu Jul 10 04:49:55 2008 From: elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk (Elena Pierazzo) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:49:55 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Council Telefon conference In-Reply-To: <5941.84.2.96.208.1215624766.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <5941.84.2.96.208.1215624766.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4875CD33.6080600@kcl.ac.uk> I will not be available for the first two weeks of August. Elena Peter Boot wrote: > I'm away on a holiday until July 24. Sorry. > > Peter > >> Dear all, >> I would like to organise a Telecon over the summer to deal with the >> various issues we have gathered since our last F2F meeting. This >> could either be this Friday or in early August. Daniel, would you be >> online to see how we could use your nice tool for planning such a >> meeting? >> >> I am gathering right away possible items for the agenda, and >> everyone's contributions is welcome. >> >> Best, >> Laurent >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Elena Pierazzo Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Jul 11 06:10:08 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 12:10:08 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Next TelCo Message-ID: Dear all, Since it is the first time I am going though MeetingWizard on my own, I am confirming this with a message on the list. You must have received a message inviting you to state your availability for a TelCo through MeetingWizard. Please respond as quickly as you can. In parallel, I am now gathering agenda items. What I have at present is the following: - old issues (reminder to actions, closing threads) - Summary of new features/bug request and proposal for action - Formal support for XML schema validation -- survey user community to determine need for W3C schema versus DTD, RELAX NG? [DS] - physical bibliographies, dealing with comments from M McGillivray. I would like to appoint someone to review this (Paul?) - preparing our next F2F. My agenda is getting Pretty packed. I could suggest 9-10 Oct. close to a major accessible Airport (Paris could be one option, I can have a nice meeting place there) Laurent From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Fri Jul 11 13:40:53 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel Paul O'Donnell) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 11:40:53 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Next TelCo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1215798053.6146.29.camel@wiglaf> Got it. It worked well. On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 12:10 +0200, Laurent Romary wrote: > Dear all, > Since it is the first time I am going though MeetingWizard on my own, > I am confirming this with a message on the list. You must have > received a message inviting you to state your availability for a TelCo > through MeetingWizard. Please respond as quickly as you can. > In parallel, I am now gathering agenda items. What I have at present > is the following: > > - old issues (reminder to actions, closing threads) > - Summary of new features/bug request and proposal for action > - Formal support for XML schema validation -- survey user community to > determine need for W3C schema versus DTD, RELAX NG? [DS] > - physical bibliographies, dealing with comments from M McGillivray. I > would like to appoint someone to review this (Paul?) > - preparing our next F2F. My agenda is getting Pretty packed. I could > suggest 9-10 Oct. close to a major accessible Airport (Paris could be > one option, I can have a nice meeting place there) > > Laurent > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) Director, Digital Medievalist Project (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) Associate Professor of English Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jul 14 03:45:38 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:45:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Re: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 5: P5 10.3] Message-ID: <487B0422.8060108@oucs.ox.ac.uk> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: James Phillip Ascher Subject: Re: TEI-PB P5 gap analysis 5: P5 10.3 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 22:43:44 -0400 Size: 9470 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080714/e5eb727e/attachment.eml From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Mon Jul 21 11:32:21 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 16:32:21 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] see FR 1925125 In-Reply-To: <486A4592.3060208@kcl.ac.uk> References: <485D5B5C.1060900@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <486A4592.3060208@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4884AC05.2060208@kcl.ac.uk> I haven't noticed any responses to this discussion yet. I bring this up because we have also noticed that none of the changes to , att.dimensions, etc. are in the current development guidelines. (Which means, I imagine, that it's not in P5.1, then?) G Gabriel Bodard a ?crit : > Why did we decide to add @precision to att.editLike? Surely we only need > @precision when the element supports a number attribute (@value, > @quantity, aut sim.), and in that case the element should be a member of > att.dimensions anyway, shouldn't it? > > In any case, which elements in att.editLike were we specifically > thinking need @precision? > > G > > Lou Burnard a ?crit : >> Gabriel proposed the following two changes as resolution for this ticket >> after the last Council: >> >> ---- >> (1) @extent and @unit on gap are to be suppressed, and instead gap will be >> made a member of att.dimensions, which gives it @quantity and @unit. >> >> (2) att.dimensions is to be extended by the addition of attributes: @from >> and @to (to indicate ranges of quantities); @atLeast and @atMost (for >> uncertain/imprecise quantities). >> ---- >> >> The trouble with this is that we also decided to add @precision to both att.dimensions and att.editLike. >> Adding (which is a member of att.editLike) to att.dimensions would thus give it the same attribute twice. >> >> Suggestions? > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) > > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jul 21 16:56:42 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 21:56:42 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] see FR 1925125 In-Reply-To: <4884AC05.2060208@kcl.ac.uk> References: <485D5B5C.1060900@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <486A4592.3060208@kcl.ac.uk> <4884AC05.2060208@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4884F80A.8030500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Yes, I am sorry, but I could only put into P5.1 the issues which seemed to have been resolved after Galway. I was hoping (like you) to see some of these other matters get resolved too, but discussion on this list just didn't seem to happen and we haven't had any council meetings since then (even by phone) to revive it. Gabriel Bodard wrote: > I haven't noticed any responses to this discussion yet. I bring this up > because we have also noticed that none of the changes to , > att.dimensions, etc. are in the current development guidelines. (Which > means, I imagine, that it's not in P5.1, then?) > > G > > Gabriel Bodard a ?crit : > >> Why did we decide to add @precision to att.editLike? Surely we only need >> @precision when the element supports a number attribute (@value, >> @quantity, aut sim.), and in that case the element should be a member of >> att.dimensions anyway, shouldn't it? >> >> In any case, which elements in att.editLike were we specifically >> thinking need @precision? >> >> G >> >> Lou Burnard a ?crit : >> >>> Gabriel proposed the following two changes as resolution for this ticket >>> after the last Council: >>> >>> ---- >>> (1) @extent and @unit on gap are to be suppressed, and instead gap will be >>> made a member of att.dimensions, which gives it @quantity and @unit. >>> >>> (2) att.dimensions is to be extended by the addition of attributes: @from >>> and @to (to indicate ranges of quantities); @atLeast and @atMost (for >>> uncertain/imprecise quantities). >>> ---- >>> >>> The trouble with this is that we also decided to add @precision to both att.dimensions and att.editLike. >>> Adding (which is a member of att.editLike) to att.dimensions would thus give it the same attribute twice. >>> >>> Suggestions? >>> >> -- >> Dr Gabriel BODARD >> (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) >> >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL >> Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk >> Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 >> Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 >> >> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ >> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > > From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jul 22 06:57:17 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:57:17 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] @calendar: note in the wrong place Message-ID: <4885BD0D.2050007@kcl.ac.uk> Hi, I think the note about the use of @calendar currently at http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-att.datable.iso.html should be moved to the reference section on date: http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-date.html Should I add this in sourceForge? Arianna -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Jul 22 12:33:27 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:33:27 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] SIG for dictionaries? Message-ID: <48860BD7.7040307@kcl.ac.uk> Is there, or has there ever been, a TEI SIG for dictionaries/lexicography? Should there be? I ask because I know several people for whom the current dictionary module is inadequate to their needs, and some are using home-brewed XML as a result (yuk!). G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From susan.schreibman at gmail.com Tue Jul 22 14:11:09 2008 From: susan.schreibman at gmail.com (Susan Schreibman) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:11:09 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] SIG for dictionaries? In-Reply-To: <48860BD7.7040307@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48860BD7.7040307@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <488622BD.1070705@gmail.com> I don't ever remember a SIG for dictionaries. But there is no reason one can't be formed! It would take two people to take ownership of it and propose it to the Council via me. If you know two or three people who want to take ownership, have them get in touch with me. susan Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Is there, or has there ever been, a TEI SIG for > dictionaries/lexicography? Should there be? > > I ask because I know several people for whom the current dictionary > module is inadequate to their needs, and some are using home-brewed XML > as a result (yuk!). > > G > > > -- Susan Schreibman, PhD Director Digital Humanities Observatory 28-32 Pembroke Street Upper Dublin 2 -- A project of the Royal Irish Academy -- Phone: +353 1 234 2440 Mobile: +353 86 049 1966 Fax: +353 1 234 2588 Email:` s.schreibman at ria.ie http://dho.ie http://irith.org http://macgreevy.org http://v-machine.org From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Jul 22 22:55:33 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 22:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] @calendar: note in the wrong place In-Reply-To: <4885BD0D.2050007@kcl.ac.uk> References: <4885BD0D.2050007@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200807230255.m6N2tXSJ013831@scorpio.services.brown.edu> Are you talking about the element in att.databale.iso.xml that starts as follows? |

The value of when-iso should be the normalized | representation of the date, time, or combined date & time If so, I think you are right. The second sentence of this element should be associated with the calendar= attribute, not the when= or when-iso= attributes. (The calendar= attribute is currently only available on .) But wile I'm at it, it may be worth thinking about the section near the end of att.datable.iso.xml which starts |

If both when-iso and dur-iso are | specified, the values should be interpreted as indicating a span The last clause is somewhat clumsy; but more importantly the corre- sponding in att.datable.w3c.xml has been commented out. I think either neither should be present, or far better, both should. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jul 23 03:23:56 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:23:56 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] @calendar: note in the wrong place In-Reply-To: <200807230255.m6N2tXSJ013831@scorpio.services.brown.edu> References: <4885BD0D.2050007@kcl.ac.uk> <200807230255.m6N2tXSJ013831@scorpio.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4886DC8C.7020607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > But wile I'm at it, it may be worth thinking about the > section near the end of att.datable.iso.xml which starts > |

If both when-iso and dur-iso are > | specified, the values should be interpreted as indicating a span > The last clause is somewhat clumsy; but more importantly the corre- > sponding in att.datable.w3c.xml has been commented out. I > think either neither should be present, or far better, both should. > Looking at this again, I am wondering why we have a @dur attribute at all, if durational information can be carried by any of the @when-* attributes. It surely can't be right to supply more than one way of doing things in this instance. From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jul 23 03:45:31 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 08:45:31 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] @calendar: note in the wrong place In-Reply-To: <200807230255.m6N2tXSJ013831@scorpio.services.brown.edu> References: <4885BD0D.2050007@kcl.ac.uk> <200807230255.m6N2tXSJ013831@scorpio.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4886E19B.6040808@kcl.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: > Are you talking about the element in att.databale.iso.xml > that starts as follows? > |

The value of when-iso should be the normalized > | representation of the date, time, or combined date & time > If so, I think you are right. The second sentence of this > element should be associated with the calendar= attribute, not the > when= or when-iso= attributes. (The calendar= attribute is currently > only available on .) That's what I meant, yes. Arianna > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jul 23 04:59:44 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:59:44 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] @calendar: note in the wrong place In-Reply-To: <4886E19B.6040808@kcl.ac.uk> References: <4885BD0D.2050007@kcl.ac.uk> <200807230255.m6N2tXSJ013831@scorpio.services.brown.edu> <4886E19B.6040808@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4886F300.40900@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I've revised the wording of these remarks for consistency and clarity. (see rev 4719) Arianna Ciula wrote: > Syd Bauman wrote: > >> Are you talking about the element in att.databale.iso.xml >> that starts as follows? >> |

The value of when-iso should be the normalized >> | representation of the date, time, or combined date & time >> If so, I think you are right. The second sentence of this >> element should be associated with the calendar= attribute, not the >> when= or when-iso= attributes. (The calendar= attribute is currently >> only available on .) >> > > That's what I meant, yes. > > Arianna > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > > From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Jul 23 07:50:09 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 07:50:09 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] @calendar: note in the wrong place In-Reply-To: <4886DC8C.7020607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4885BD0D.2050007@kcl.ac.uk> <200807230255.m6N2tXSJ013831@scorpio.services.brown.edu> <4886DC8C.7020607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18567.6897.426516.991957@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > Looking at this again, I am wondering why we have a @dur attribute at > all, if durational information can be carried by any of the @when-* > attributes. Duration information can be carried on the when-iso= attribute, but not the when= attribute, as the compound construction is a feature of ISO 8601 that is not in the W3C profile. IIRC, the logic for keeping dur-iso= was just to keep the attributes in the W3C and the ISO set parallel for consistency. > It surely can't be right to supply more than one way of doing > things in this instance. Perhaps not, although it certainly isn't the only kind of construct that TEI provides multiple ways to encode. (Witness that we have 3 different specific mechanisms to encode the information that an apparent error and its correction are exclusive.) The problem here is that it becomes a little complex. Using when-iso= you can express what adding dur-iso= can express (e.g., 2008-07-21/P2D), and what from-iso= (or from=) and to-iso= (or to=) express combined (e.g., 2008-07-21/23), but not individually. Do we want to say that from-iso= (or from=) and to-iso= (or to=) cannot be used on the same element that has a when-iso=? Or be in the business of saying "don't use the combined ISO forms if you can split it out into 2 attrs"? Hope this is clear -- I'm off teaching a TEI seminar and thus very pressed for time. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jul 23 07:58:38 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:58:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] @calendar: note in the wrong place In-Reply-To: <18567.6897.426516.991957@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <4885BD0D.2050007@kcl.ac.uk> <200807230255.m6N2tXSJ013831@scorpio.services.brown.edu> <4886DC8C.7020607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18567.6897.426516.991957@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <48871CEE.2000205@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: >> Looking at this again, I am wondering why we have a @dur attribute at >> all, if durational information can be carried by any of the @when-* >> attributes. >> > > Duration information can be carried on the when-iso= attribute, but > not the when= attribute, as the compound construction is a feature of > ISO 8601 that is not in the W3C profile. > Thanks, that answers my question. > IIRC, the logic for keeping dur-iso= was just to keep the attributes > in the W3C and the ISO set parallel for consistency. > > > I think this desire may have lead us astray then. If @when-iso can express everything that (non-ISO) @when, @to, @from, and @dur can express in a single attribute, why do we have redundantly @to-iso, @from-iso and @dur-iso? > ... > Do we want to say that > from-iso= (or from=) and to-iso= (or to=) cannot be used on the same > element that has a when-iso=? Or be in the business of saying "don't > use the combined ISO forms if you can split it out into 2 attrs"? > > > The former. To the extent that they wouldnt be defined even! > Hope this is clear -- I'm off teaching a TEI seminar and thus very > pressed for time. > > Funnily enough, me too. > _____ From pat.od at rogers.com Wed Jul 23 12:06:09 2008 From: pat.od at rogers.com (Daniel Paul O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:06:09 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] SIG for dictionaries? In-Reply-To: <488622BD.1070705@gmail.com> References: <48860BD7.7040307@kcl.ac.uk> <488622BD.1070705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1216829169.8762.33.camel@wiglaf> Laurent might be very keen on this! On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 19:11 +0100, Susan Schreibman wrote: > I don't ever remember a SIG for dictionaries. But there is no reason one > can't be formed! It would take two people to take ownership of it and > propose it to the Council via me. If you know two or three people who > want to take ownership, have them get in touch with me. > > susan > > > Gabriel Bodard wrote: > > Is there, or has there ever been, a TEI SIG for > > dictionaries/lexicography? Should there be? > > > > I ask because I know several people for whom the current dictionary > > module is inadequate to their needs, and some are using home-brewed XML > > as a result (yuk!). > > > > G > > > > > > > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) Director, Digital Medievalist Project (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) Associate Professor of English Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Aug 4 08:05:30 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (laurent.romary at loria.fr) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 14:05:30 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] SIG for dictionaries? In-Reply-To: <1216829169.8762.33.camel@wiglaf> References: <48860BD7.7040307@kcl.ac.uk> <488622BD.1070705@gmail.com> <1216829169.8762.33.camel@wiglaf> Message-ID: <20080804140530.kng59cdr4gosk4so@webmail.loria.fr> Absolutely. Laurent Daniel Paul O'Donnell a ?crit?: > Laurent might be very keen on this! > > > On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 19:11 +0100, Susan Schreibman wrote: >> I don't ever remember a SIG for dictionaries. But there is no reason one >> can't be formed! It would take two people to take ownership of it and >> propose it to the Council via me. If you know two or three people who >> want to take ownership, have them get in touch with me. >> >> susan >> >> >> Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> > Is there, or has there ever been, a TEI SIG for >> > dictionaries/lexicography? Should there be? >> > >> > I ask because I know several people for whom the current dictionary >> > module is inadequate to their needs, and some are using home-brewed XML >> > as a result (yuk!). >> > >> > G >> > >> > >> > >> > -- > Daniel Paul O'Donnell > Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) > Director, Digital Medievalist Project > (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) > Associate Professor of English > Department of English > University of Lethbridge > Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 > > vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 > fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 > email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca > homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Aug 4 08:08:43 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (laurent.romary at loria.fr) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 14:08:43 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] SIG for dictionaries? In-Reply-To: <488622BD.1070705@gmail.com> References: <48860BD7.7040307@kcl.ac.uk> <488622BD.1070705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080804140843.jhxnb85yw0kowswg@webmail.loria.fr> We can put this on the agenda of the next TelCo, if I manage to get a hand on my own messages (burglqry => no laptop...). Cheers, Laurent Susan Schreibman a ?crit?: > I don't ever remember a SIG for dictionaries. But there is no reason one > can't be formed! It would take two people to take ownership of it and > propose it to the Council via me. If you know two or three people who > want to take ownership, have them get in touch with me. > > susan > > > Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> Is there, or has there ever been, a TEI SIG for >> dictionaries/lexicography? Should there be? >> >> I ask because I know several people for whom the current dictionary >> module is inadequate to their needs, and some are using home-brewed XML >> as a result (yuk!). >> >> G >> >> >> > > -- > Susan Schreibman, PhD > Director > Digital Humanities Observatory > 28-32 Pembroke Street Upper > Dublin 2 > -- A project of the Royal Irish Academy -- > > Phone: +353 1 234 2440 > Mobile: +353 86 049 1966 > Fax: +353 1 234 2588 > Email:` s.schreibman at ria.ie > > http://dho.ie > http://irith.org > http://macgreevy.org > http://v-machine.org > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Aug 5 16:18:47 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:18:47 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] let's sort out the problem first... Message-ID: <4898B5A7.1020804@oucs.ox.ac.uk> There is long standing discontent about the content model of the model.segLike elements , , , and . These are intended to be specialisations of (which is also a member of the model.segLike class). However, since and are meant to be used for segmentation at or below the single "word" level, they have different content models. Specifically, these two permit a mixture of text, model.gLike, model.global, and model.segLike elements only, whereas the others contain macro.paraContent. The intention is to prevent nonsense like the introduction of a within a word, but the cost is that useful tags like or are also not available. It's not unreasonable at all (as several have pointed out) to want to use such tags at a sublexical level; yet the only way to do so at present is to wrap the content of the within a (which being a member of model.segLike is permitted!). So you cannot say M. -- but you can say M.. Which just looks silly. There seem to be two possible solutions (if you agree that the status quo is broken) a. change and to have macro.paraContent, like all the other model.segLike elements b. permit these two to contain an appropriate subset of "sublexical" elements rather than model.segLike My preference would be for the latter. I suggest that the appropriate subset would consist of - current members of model.pPart.edit - current members of model.hiLike Whether this should consitute a new "sublexical" class is probably best left to the next revision of the class system, however. Opinions? counter-suggestions? cries of "about time too"? From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Aug 5 16:22:58 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:22:58 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] and then there's the TBOs question Message-ID: <4898B6A2.4020903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> A number of projects cataloguing early print material and incunables have reported that the current msdescription module meets most of their requirements, albeit with some grimaces about the names of the elements. It has been suggested that it would be desirable in the medium term to try to generalise the "ms*" elements into "text-bearing-object*". In the immediate short term however, a surprisingly small number of minor modifications would enable all of what is reported as needful by at least one major project aiming to catalogue incunables: 1. the elements docAuthor, docDate, docImprint, and docTitle currently permitted only within a titlePage, should be made available within msItem and msContents. 2. a new typeDesc element, analagous to handDesc, and as an alternative to it, is needed to contain descriptions of the typographic features of a printed source, within the physDesc. We could work this into the next release if there is general agreement that it's not a step in the wrong direction... In any case, I propose putting these two ideas into feature request form for discussion at the next opportunity. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Aug 5 17:21:24 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:21:24 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: and then there's the TBOs question] Message-ID: <4898C454.3020707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Lou's Laptop" Subject: and then there's the TBOs question Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:22:58 +0100 Size: 1564 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080805/143eb130/attachment.eml From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Aug 5 18:26:52 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 23:26:52 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] let's sort out the problem first... In-Reply-To: <4898B5A7.1020804@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4898B5A7.1020804@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4898D3AC.1040401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou's Laptop wrote: > a. change and to have macro.paraContent, like all the other > model.segLike elements > b. permit these two to contain an appropriate subset of "sublexical" > elements rather than model.segLike > > My preference would be for the latter. I suggest that the appropriate > subset would consist of > - current members of model.pPart.edit > - current members of model.hiLike > Whether this should consitute a new "sublexical" class is probably > best left to the next revision of the class system, however. I agree that this is a long-standing problem that certainly should be fixed. Of the two suggestions I certainly prefer b. because it really should only be such things as pPart.edit or hiLike that you should need at a lexical level inside a word. However, I think there is going to be a lot of resistance against removing all members of model.segLike from the content mode of 'w' since it is exactly c cl m seg and similar that people are going to want to have inside a lexical word. Or am I misunderstanding your suggestion? This would stop me using when I really just want to use ... so I'm generally in favour as long as people can still use c/cl/m/seg/g inside it as well. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Aug 5 18:37:33 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 23:37:33 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] and then there's the TBOs question In-Reply-To: <4898B6A2.4020903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4898B6A2.4020903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4898D62D.4010101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> msDesc (and predecessors) has for quite awhile been used by those cataloguing incunabula, and in every instance needing some hacks and abuse here and there to fit print-model concepts into a manuscript description. I am, I admit, a bit uneasy at using ms* elements to describe things which aren't inscribed/written by hand. However, it does seem to me that these are fairly minor changes which would satisfy a lot of people in the medium term. But I do think that sometime in the next couple years we should be re-investigating the best way to handle manuscript and early print resources so that those cataloguing the latter are properly catered for. I'd support these suggestions with the caveat that we should also return to the msDesc module at some point to loosen-up/re-examine some of its content models and make easier more general use of certain elements (like ) by those not working with manuscript materials. -James Lou's Laptop wrote: > A number of projects cataloguing early print material and > incunables have reported that the current msdescription module meets > most of their requirements, albeit with some grimaces about the names of the > elements. It has been suggested that it would be desirable in the > medium term to try to generalise the "ms*" elements into > "text-bearing-object*". In the immediate short term however, a > surprisingly small number of minor modifications would enable all of > what is reported as needful by at least one major project aiming to > catalogue incunables: > > 1. the elements docAuthor, docDate, docImprint, and docTitle currently > permitted only within a titlePage, should be made available within > msItem and msContents. > > 2. a new typeDesc element, analagous to handDesc, and as an > alternative to it, is needed to contain descriptions of the > typographic features of a printed source, within the physDesc. > > > We could work this into the next release if there is general agreement > that it's not a step in the wrong direction... In any case, I propose > putting these two ideas into feature request form for discussion at the > next opportunity. > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Aug 5 20:56:57 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 20:56:57 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] let's sort out the problem first... In-Reply-To: <4898D3AC.1040401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4898B5A7.1020804@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4898D3AC.1040401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18584.63193.267727.662315@emt.wwp.brown.edu> LB> cries of "about time too"? About time, too! :-) LB> a. change and to have macro.paraContent, like all the other LB> model.segLike elements LB> b. permit these two to contain an appropriate subset of "sublexical" LB> elements rather than model.segLike LB> LB> My preference would be for the latter. I suggest that the appropriate LB> subset would consist of LB> - current members of model.pPart.edit LB> - current members of model.hiLike LB> Whether this should consitute a new "sublexical" class is probably LB> best left to the next revision of the class system, however. I generally like (b), but would allow model.pPart.edit and mdoel.hiLike in addition to, rather than instead of, model.segLike. The MONK project has been intermittently working on a serious P5 customization that includes, among other things, reasonable content for . We took the element (as opposed to class) approach, and had started developing a list of what elements should be allowed inside . It will take a bit of skimming through old e-mail, but I would be happy to post that list here, if you like. From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Aug 5 21:03:54 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:03:54 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: and then there's the TBOs question] In-Reply-To: <4898C454.3020707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4898C454.3020707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18584.63610.860452.349838@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > 1. the elements docAuthor, docDate, docImprint, and docTitle > currently permitted only within a titlePage, should be made > available within msItem and msContents. Or, alternatively, the elements , , , , and should be eliminated, as they serve no useful purpose above and beyond , , , , and if they were permitted as children of <titlePage> (and <msItem> and <msContents>). From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 6 04:18:26 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 09:18:26 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: and then there's the TBOs question] In-Reply-To: <18584.63610.860452.349838@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <4898C454.3020707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18584.63610.860452.349838@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <48995E52.1070505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> The difference between e.g. title and docTitle is that the former is what the catalogue says and the latter what the titlepage says. They may not be the same. yd Bauman wrote: >> 1. the elements docAuthor, docDate, docImprint, and docTitle >> currently permitted only within a titlePage, should be made >> available within msItem and msContents. >> > > Or, alternatively, the elements <docAuthor>, <docDate>, <docEdition>, > <docImprint>, and <docTitle> should be eliminated, as they serve no > useful purpose above and beyond <author>, <date>, <edition>, > <imprint>, and <title> if they were permitted as children of > <titlePage> (and <msItem> and <msContents>). > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 6 04:21:39 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 09:21:39 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] let's sort out the <w> problem first... In-Reply-To: <4898D3AC.1040401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4898B5A7.1020804@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4898D3AC.1040401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48995F13.5070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > Lou's Laptop wrote: >> a. change <w> and <m> to have macro.paraContent, like all the other >> model.segLike elements >> b. permit these two to contain an appropriate subset of "sublexical" >> elements rather than model.segLike >> >> My preference would be for the latter. I suggest that the appropriate >> subset would consist of >> - current members of model.pPart.edit >> - current members of model.hiLike >> Whether this should consitute a new "sublexical" class is probably >> best left to the next revision of the class system, however. > > I agree that this is a long-standing problem that certainly should be > fixed. Of the two suggestions I certainly prefer b. because it really > should only be such things as pPart.edit or hiLike that you should > need at a lexical level inside a word. However, I think there is > going to be a lot of resistance against removing all members of > model.segLike from the content mode of 'w' since it is exactly c cl m > seg and similar that people are going to want to have inside a lexical > word. Or am I misunderstanding your suggestion? > > This would stop me using <seg type="word"> when I really just want to > use <w>... so I'm generally in favour as long as people can still use > c/cl/m/seg/g inside it as well. > > -James > I think it might be better to partition model.segLike into those which can reasonably be expected within a word (<m> and (possibly) <c>) and those which cannot (<cl>, <phr>), I'm unsure about <seg>. From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 6 05:56:10 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:56:10 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] let's sort out the <w> problem first... In-Reply-To: <48995F13.5070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4898B5A7.1020804@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4898D3AC.1040401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48995F13.5070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4899753A.40201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou Burnard wrote: > I think it might be better to partition model.segLike into those which > can reasonably be expected within a word (<m> and (possibly) <c>) and > those which cannot (<cl>, <phr>), I'm unsure about <seg>. Ok, that's a solution I could buy into. In would be in favour of including <seg> because otherwise it isn't really being an 'arbitrary segment' if I can't use it to say something about part of a word. And this could then be used for legacy conversions where someone has (perhaps unadvisably) used some of the other segLike elements. (Though, reading seg's desc it could maybe stand some rewriting since referring to 'chunk' level things might not be the clearest way of expressing it -- though I've no helpful suggestions.) -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Aug 6 09:51:26 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 09:51:26 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: and then there's the TBOs question] In-Reply-To: <48995E52.1070505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4898C454.3020707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18584.63610.860452.349838@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <48995E52.1070505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18585.44126.553629.41902@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > The difference between e.g. title and docTitle is that the former > is what the catalogue says and the latter what the titlepage says. > They may not be the same. But you're selling <title> short. It is already overloaded, as it were. It may represent what the catalogue says (e.g., when in <biblStruct>), it may represent the title I dreamed up for my digital edition (when in TEI/teiHeader/fileDesc/titleStmt), it may represent a short title used as reference, or it may represent how a title appeared in the source running prose, complete with other markup: <p>I saw my cousin lying in bed. He was reading <title>And to My <lb/>Nephew Albert: I Leave the Island <choice><sic>That</sic><corr>What</corr></choice> I Won Off Fatty Hagan <lb/>in a Poker Game, a novel which, even in paperback ... I am just wondering aloud if we can pile one more use onto : the title as it appears on the title page when a descendant of <titlePage>. Thus allowing us to eliminate <docTitle>. The disadvantage I see with this particular suggestion is that it is conceivable, if unlikely, that a title page contains titles of other works, e.g. in an advertisement or as a part of the document title. If we eliminate <docTitle> it may be hard to differentiate those. (But there are other ways of doing this -- a particular value of type= or a new doc= attribute, e.g.) From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 6 10:10:06 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:10:06 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: and then there's the TBOs question] In-Reply-To: <18585.44126.553629.41902@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <4898C454.3020707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18584.63610.860452.349838@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <48995E52.1070505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18585.44126.553629.41902@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <4899B0BE.4050608@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: >> The difference between e.g. title and docTitle is that the former >> is what the catalogue says and the latter what the titlepage says. >> They may not be the same. > > But you're selling <title> short. It is already overloaded, as it > were. It may represent what the catalogue says (e.g., when in > <biblStruct>), it may represent the title I dreamed up for my digital > edition (when in TEI/teiHeader/fileDesc/titleStmt), it may represent > a short title used as reference, or it may represent how a title > appeared in the source running prose, complete with other markup: > > <p>I saw my cousin lying in bed. He was reading <title>And to My > <lb/>Nephew Albert: I Leave the Island > <choice><sic>That</sic><corr>What</corr></choice> I Won Off Fatty > Hagan <lb/>in a Poker Game, a novel which, even in > paperback ... Is this a made-up example? > > I am just wondering aloud if we can pile one more use onto : > the title as it appears on the title page when a descendant of > <titlePage>. Thus allowing us to eliminate <docTitle>. But why would this be a good idea? The distinction between docTitle and title (vel sim) is clear and useful and I see no need to eliminate it. > > The disadvantage I see with this particular suggestion is that it is > conceivable, if unlikely, that a title page contains titles of other > works, e.g. in an advertisement or as a part of the document title. Actually, no that happens a lot. as in <docTitle>Animadversions on <title>Paradise Lost or by the author of Witterings > If we eliminate it may be hard to differentiate those. > (But there are other ways of doing this -- a particular value of > type= or a new doc= attribute, e.g.) It ain't broke. Stop trying to fix it. From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Aug 6 10:43:37 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 10:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] let's sort out the problem first... In-Reply-To: <48995F13.5070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4898B5A7.1020804@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4898D3AC.1040401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48995F13.5070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Lou Burnard wrote: > I think it might be better to partition model.segLike into those which > can reasonably be expected within a word ( and (possibly) ) and > those which cannot (, ), I'm unsure about . If one were using TEI to mark up text in an agglutinative language, wouldn't there be cases where and possibly even could legitimately appear within a tag? Maybe this is one of those cases where we need to provide maximum flexibility in content models even if it allows for valid but nonsensical tagging? (Seems to me that anyone who is serious enough to want to use the linguistic segmentation tags will likely be capable of analyzing and tagging grammatical structure as needed.) David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Aug 6 11:00:11 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 11:00:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: and then there's the TBOs question] In-Reply-To: <18584.63610.860452.349838@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <4898C454.3020707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18584.63610.860452.349838@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: I think we would seriously alienate a large population of people in the digital library community (and elsewhere) if we were to decree that in P6 all the docXYZ elements were gone, or even deprecated. There's a huge base of code, specifications, and procedurals out there that assumes their existence, and converting all of that goes well beyond a simple XSLT transform. I don't think there's enough justification at this point for the break with backward compabitibility that the merger would entail. David On Tue, 5 Aug 2008, Syd Bauman wrote: > > 1. the elements docAuthor, docDate, docImprint, and docTitle > > currently permitted only within a titlePage, should be made > > available within msItem and msContents. > > Or, alternatively, the elements , , , > , and should be eliminated, as they serve no > useful purpose above and beyond , , , > , and if they were permitted as children of > <titlePage> (and <msItem> and <msContents>). > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 6 11:00:07 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:00:07 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] let's sort out the <w> problem first... In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.10.0808061034550.73177@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> References: <4898B5A7.1020804@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4898D3AC.1040401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48995F13.5070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.1.10.0808061034550.73177@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: <20080806150007.D6FABDEC5@webmail218.herald.ox.ac.uk> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080806/ba7230f1/attachment.pl From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 6 11:15:15 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:15:15 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: and then there's the TBOs question] In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.1.10.0808061054040.73177@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> References: <4898C454.3020707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18584.63610.860452.349838@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <alpine.OSX.1.10.0808061054040.73177@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> Message-ID: <4899C003.7070201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I would have to say that I agree with David here. I see no useful reason for getting rid of any of the doc* elements, especially as I know people who really make use them. (While I myself have never personally used them.) Expanding where they are allowed, specifically to msItem and msContents seems a reasonable compromise to me. The easiest way to do this, of course, is to allow model.titlepagePart to be allowed there. However, the members of that are: binaryObject byline docAuthor docDate docEdition docImprint docTitle epigraph figure graphic imprimatur titlePart whereas I'd be much more comfortable if not all of these were allowed in msContents/msItem. Perhaps a list of just: docAuthor docDate docEdition docImprint docTitle epigraph imprimatur as that removes the image-related ones, and titlePart which is available inside docTitle. -James David Sewell wrote: > I think we would seriously alienate a large population of people in the > digital library community (and elsewhere) if we were to decree that in > P6 all the docXYZ elements were gone, or even deprecated. > > There's a huge base of code, specifications, and procedurals out there > that assumes their existence, and converting all of that goes well > beyond a simple XSLT transform. > > I don't think there's enough justification at this point for the break > with backward compabitibility that the merger would entail. > > David > > On Tue, 5 Aug 2008, Syd Bauman wrote: > >>> 1. the elements docAuthor, docDate, docImprint, and docTitle >>> currently permitted only within a titlePage, should be made >>> available within msItem and msContents. >> Or, alternatively, the elements <docAuthor>, <docDate>, <docEdition>, >> <docImprint>, and <docTitle> should be eliminated, as they serve no >> useful purpose above and beyond <author>, <date>, <edition>, >> <imprint>, and <title> if they were permitted as children of >> <titlePage> (and <msItem> and <msContents>). >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Aug 6 11:38:17 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (laurent.romary at loria.fr) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 17:38:17 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] let's sort out the <w> problem first... In-Reply-To: <20080806150007.D6FABDEC5@webmail218.herald.ox.ac.uk> References: <4898B5A7.1020804@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4898D3AC.1040401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48995F13.5070302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <alpine.OSX.1.10.0808061034550.73177@lister.ei.Virginia.EDU> <20080806150007.D6FABDEC5@webmail218.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20080806173817.pysnjunw1wk8sgs4@webmail.loria.fr> I also know that a lot of projects (in NLP) are using <w> recursively (e.g. to deal with multiword expressions). We should definitely keep this feature. Laurent From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Aug 6 11:54:26 2008 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 11:54:26 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: and then there's the TBOs question] In-Reply-To: <4899B0BE.4050608@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <4898C454.3020707@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18584.63610.860452.349838@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <48995E52.1070505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <18585.44126.553629.41902@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <4899B0BE.4050608@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18585.51506.535607.565921@emt.wwp.brown.edu> > > <p>I saw my cousin lying in bed. He was reading <title>And to > > My <lb/>Nephew Albert: I Leave the Island > > <choice><sic>That</sic><corr>What</corr></choice> I Won Off > > Fatty Hagan <lb/>in a Poker Game, a novel which, even > > in paperback ... > > Is this a made-up example? The example is made-up, the title ("And to My Nephew Albert: I Leave the Island What I Won Off Fatty Hagan a Poker Game") is of a real book. Written by David Forrest, published in 1969 or 1970. Supposedly very very funny (according to my cousin), but I've never read it. > But why would this be a good idea? To reduce the complexity of the TEI, and to use the same element for the same thing, whether it happens to be on the title page or not. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Aug 15 12:22:49 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 17:22:49 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Message from Laurent: telecon next Friday Message-ID: <48A5AD59.2040208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Council members wondering what has happened to our chairman in the last few weeks will be glad to learn that he's now recovered from a couple of misfortunes which have been keeping him unnaturally quiet. At the start of the month he was burgled and lost all the information on his laptop; recovering from backup is not so easy, but is underway, it seems. And last week, he succumbed to a nasty flu infection. I have just been speaking to Laurent, and he asks me to confirm that we will be having our *planned Council teleconference next Friday* and also to request Daniel to organise this as before for 1500 Berlin time (1400 GMT) on the 21st. An agenda will follow in due course, early next week, but it's probably a good idea to check everyone has the call in their calendars now! I hope to get a summary of the current state of outstanding feature requests ready over the weekend. From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sun Aug 17 12:58:44 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 17:58:44 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Message from Laurent: telecon next Friday In-Reply-To: <48A5AD59.2040208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48A5AD59.2040208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48A858C4.6090904@kcl.ac.uk> Is this actually taking place on next Friday the 22nd, or Thursday 21st? (Since there is no Friday 21st this month.) Lou Burnard a ?crit : > Council members wondering what has happened to our chairman in the last > few weeks will be glad to learn that he's now recovered from a couple of > misfortunes which have been keeping him unnaturally quiet. At the start > of the month he was burgled and lost all the information on his laptop; > recovering from backup is not so easy, but is underway, it seems. And > last week, he succumbed to a nasty flu infection. > > I have just been speaking to Laurent, and he asks me to confirm that we > will be having our *planned Council teleconference next Friday* and also > to request Daniel to organise this as before for 1500 Berlin time (1400 > GMT) on the 21st. An agenda will follow in due course, early next week, > but it's probably a good idea to check everyone has the call in their > calendars now! > > I hope to get a summary of the current state of outstanding feature > requests ready over the weekend. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Aug 18 02:22:47 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 08:22:47 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: [Fwd: Re: Message from Laurent: telecon next Friday] References: <17FD1019-1DA2-48FF-BD1F-647F20F01369@loria.fr> Message-ID: <566B4E64-4C98-4B64-BCE4-BDC73C34E6E4@loria.fr> D?but du message r?exp?di? : > De : Laurent Romary > Date : 18 ao?t 2008 08:11:23 HAEC > ? : Lou Burnard > Cc : Dan O'Donnell > Objet : R?p : [Fwd: Re: [tei-council] Message from Laurent: telecon > next Friday] > > Back on a decent email environment (nearly so): I meant Thursday > 21st, 3PM (my time). > I had suggested the following agenda in July, comments welcome: > > - old issues (reminder to actions, closing threads) > - Summary of new features/bug request and proposal for action > - Formal support for XML schema validation -- survey user community to > determine need for W3C schema versus DTD, RELAX NG? [DS] > - physical bibliographies, dealing with comments from M McGillivray. I > would like to appoint someone to review this (Paul?) > - preparing our next F2F. My agenda is getting Pretty packed. I could > suggest 9-10 Oct. close to a major accessible Airport (Paris could be > one option, I can have a nice meeting place there) > > Le 17 ao?t 08 ? 19:59, Lou Burnard a ?crit : > >> aargh! please sort this out! >> >> i can do either 21st or 22nd -- but it's not clear which laurent is >> expecting. >> >> >> >> De : Lou Burnard >> Date : 17 ao?t 2008 19:03:17 HAEC >> ? : Gabriel Bodard >> Objet : R?p : [tei-council] Message from Laurent: telecon next Friday >> >> >> My diary says the 21st. But thanks to your note, I am now utterly >> confused! Since DPOD has to organise it, I'll go with whatever he >> says. >> >> >> Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> Is this actually taking place on next Friday the 22nd, or Thursday >>> 21st? (Since there is no Friday 21st this month.) >>> >>> Lou Burnard a ?crit : >>>> Council members wondering what has happened to our chairman in >>>> the last >>>> few weeks will be glad to learn that he's now recovered from a >>>> couple of >>>> misfortunes which have been keeping him unnaturally quiet. At the >>>> start >>>> of the month he was burgled and lost all the information on his >>>> laptop; >>>> recovering from backup is not so easy, but is underway, it seems. >>>> And >>>> last week, he succumbed to a nasty flu infection. >>>> >>>> I have just been speaking to Laurent, and he asks me to confirm >>>> that we >>>> will be having our *planned Council teleconference next Friday* >>>> and also >>>> to request Daniel to organise this as before for 1500 Berlin time >>>> (1400 >>>> GMT) on the 21st. An agenda will follow in due course, early next >>>> week, >>>> but it's probably a good idea to check everyone has the call in >>>> their >>>> calendars now! >>>> >>>> I hope to get a summary of the current state of outstanding feature >>>> requests ready over the weekend. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> tei-council mailing list >>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >> >> >> >> > From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Aug 18 04:56:59 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 09:56:59 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: [Fwd: Re: Message from Laurent: telecon next Friday] In-Reply-To: <566B4E64-4C98-4B64-BCE4-BDC73C34E6E4@loria.fr> References: <17FD1019-1DA2-48FF-BD1F-647F20F01369@loria.fr> <566B4E64-4C98-4B64-BCE4-BDC73C34E6E4@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48A9395B.7080207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Apologies to all for unintentionally introducing confusion by using the word "Friday". Thursday it is. L Laurent Romary wrote: > D?but du message r?exp?di? : > > >> De : Laurent Romary >> Date : 18 ao?t 2008 08:11:23 HAEC >> ? : Lou Burnard >> Cc : Dan O'Donnell >> Objet : R?p : [Fwd: Re: [tei-council] Message from Laurent: telecon >> next Friday] >> >> Back on a decent email environment (nearly so): I meant Thursday >> 21st, 3PM (my time). >> I had suggested the following agenda in July, comments welcome: >> >> - old issues (reminder to actions, closing threads) >> - Summary of new features/bug request and proposal for action >> - Formal support for XML schema validation -- survey user community to >> determine need for W3C schema versus DTD, RELAX NG? [DS] >> - physical bibliographies, dealing with comments from M McGillivray. I >> would like to appoint someone to review this (Paul?) >> - preparing our next F2F. My agenda is getting Pretty packed. I could >> suggest 9-10 Oct. close to a major accessible Airport (Paris could be >> one option, I can have a nice meeting place there) >> >> Le 17 ao?t 08 ? 19:59, Lou Burnard a ?crit : >> >> >>> aargh! please sort this out! >>> >>> i can do either 21st or 22nd -- but it's not clear which laurent is >>> expecting. >>> >>> >>> >>> De : Lou Burnard >>> Date : 17 ao?t 2008 19:03:17 HAEC >>> ? : Gabriel Bodard >>> Objet : R?p : [tei-council] Message from Laurent: telecon next Friday >>> >>> >>> My diary says the 21st. But thanks to your note, I am now utterly >>> confused! Since DPOD has to organise it, I'll go with whatever he >>> says. >>> >>> >>> Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> >>>> Is this actually taking place on next Friday the 22nd, or Thursday >>>> 21st? (Since there is no Friday 21st this month.) >>>> >>>> Lou Burnard a ?crit : >>>> >>>>> Council members wondering what has happened to our chairman in >>>>> the last >>>>> few weeks will be glad to learn that he's now recovered from a >>>>> couple of >>>>> misfortunes which have been keeping him unnaturally quiet. At the >>>>> start >>>>> of the month he was burgled and lost all the information on his >>>>> laptop; >>>>> recovering from backup is not so easy, but is underway, it seems. >>>>> And >>>>> last week, he succumbed to a nasty flu infection. >>>>> >>>>> I have just been speaking to Laurent, and he asks me to confirm >>>>> that we >>>>> will be having our *planned Council teleconference next Friday* >>>>> and also >>>>> to request Daniel to organise this as before for 1500 Berlin time >>>>> (1400 >>>>> GMT) on the 21st. An agenda will follow in due course, early next >>>>> week, >>>>> but it's probably a good idea to check everyone has the call in >>>>> their >>>>> calendars now! >>>>> >>>>> I hope to get a summary of the current state of outstanding feature >>>>> requests ready over the weekend. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> tei-council mailing list >>>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Aug 18 10:17:00 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 10:17:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: [Fwd: Re: Message from Laurent: telecon next Friday] In-Reply-To: <48A9395B.7080207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <17FD1019-1DA2-48FF-BD1F-647F20F01369@loria.fr> <566B4E64-4C98-4B64-BCE4-BDC73C34E6E4@loria.fr> <48A9395B.7080207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Then just to clarify, the teleconference time would be Thursday 21 August, 1300 GMT/UTC (*not* 1400, no daylight time) Local times: Berlin 1500 (3 PM) UK 1400 (2 PM) US East 0900 (9 AM) etc. Agreed? On Mon, 18 Aug 2008, Lou Burnard wrote: > Apologies to all for unintentionally introducing confusion by using the > word "Friday". > Thursday it is. > > > L > > > Laurent Romary wrote: > > D?but du message r?exp?di? : > > > > > >> De : Laurent Romary > >> Date : 18 ao?t 2008 08:11:23 HAEC > >> ? : Lou Burnard > >> Cc : Dan O'Donnell > >> Objet : R?p : [Fwd: Re: [tei-council] Message from Laurent: telecon > >> next Friday] > >> > >> Back on a decent email environment (nearly so): I meant Thursday > >> 21st, 3PM (my time). > >> I had suggested the following agenda in July, comments welcome: > >> > >> - old issues (reminder to actions, closing threads) > >> - Summary of new features/bug request and proposal for action > >> - Formal support for XML schema validation -- survey user community to > >> determine need for W3C schema versus DTD, RELAX NG? [DS] > >> - physical bibliographies, dealing with comments from M McGillivray. I > >> would like to appoint someone to review this (Paul?) > >> - preparing our next F2F. My agenda is getting Pretty packed. I could > >> suggest 9-10 Oct. close to a major accessible Airport (Paris could be > >> one option, I can have a nice meeting place there) > >> > >> Le 17 ao?t 08 ? 19:59, Lou Burnard a ?crit : > >> > >> > >>> aargh! please sort this out! > >>> > >>> i can do either 21st or 22nd -- but it's not clear which laurent is > >>> expecting. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> De : Lou Burnard > >>> Date : 17 ao?t 2008 19:03:17 HAEC > >>> ? : Gabriel Bodard > >>> Objet : R?p : [tei-council] Message from Laurent: telecon next Friday > >>> > >>> > >>> My diary says the 21st. But thanks to your note, I am now utterly > >>> confused! Since DPOD has to organise it, I'll go with whatever he > >>> says. > >>> > >>> > >>> Gabriel Bodard wrote: > >>> > >>>> Is this actually taking place on next Friday the 22nd, or Thursday > >>>> 21st? (Since there is no Friday 21st this month.) > >>>> > >>>> Lou Burnard a ?crit : > >>>> > >>>>> Council members wondering what has happened to our chairman in > >>>>> the last > >>>>> few weeks will be glad to learn that he's now recovered from a > >>>>> couple of > >>>>> misfortunes which have been keeping him unnaturally quiet. At the > >>>>> start > >>>>> of the month he was burgled and lost all the information on his > >>>>> laptop; > >>>>> recovering from backup is not so easy, but is underway, it seems. > >>>>> And > >>>>> last week, he succumbed to a nasty flu infection. > >>>>> > >>>>> I have just been speaking to Laurent, and he asks me to confirm > >>>>> that we > >>>>> will be having our *planned Council teleconference next Friday* > >>>>> and also > >>>>> to request Daniel to organise this as before for 1500 Berlin time > >>>>> (1400 > >>>>> GMT) on the 21st. An agenda will follow in due course, early next > >>>>> week, > >>>>> but it's probably a good idea to check everyone has the call in > >>>>> their > >>>>> calendars now! > >>>>> > >>>>> I hope to get a summary of the current state of outstanding feature > >>>>> requests ready over the weekend. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> tei-council mailing list > >>>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >>>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Aug 18 10:20:59 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:20:59 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: [Fwd: Re: Message from Laurent: telecon next Friday] In-Reply-To: References: <17FD1019-1DA2-48FF-BD1F-647F20F01369@loria.fr> <566B4E64-4C98-4B64-BCE4-BDC73C34E6E4@loria.fr> <48A9395B.7080207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <9FFDEF5D-6E2E-49F5-821E-2AD0CA8DAA1A@loria.fr> Exactly! Daniel: are you online to set the line? Le 18 ao?t 08 ? 16:17, David Sewell a ?crit : > Then just to clarify, the teleconference time would be > > Thursday 21 August, 1300 GMT/UTC (*not* 1400, no daylight time) > > Local times: > > Berlin 1500 (3 PM) > UK 1400 (2 PM) > US East 0900 (9 AM) > > etc. Agreed? > > On Mon, 18 Aug 2008, Lou Burnard wrote: > >> Apologies to all for unintentionally introducing confusion by using >> the >> word "Friday". >> Thursday it is. >> >> >> L >> >> >> Laurent Romary wrote: >>> D?but du message r?exp?di? : >>> >>> >>>> De : Laurent Romary >>>> Date : 18 ao?t 2008 08:11:23 HAEC >>>> ? : Lou Burnard >>>> Cc : Dan O'Donnell >>>> Objet : R?p : [Fwd: Re: [tei-council] Message from Laurent: telecon >>>> next Friday] >>>> >>>> Back on a decent email environment (nearly so): I meant Thursday >>>> 21st, 3PM (my time). >>>> I had suggested the following agenda in July, comments welcome: >>>> >>>> - old issues (reminder to actions, closing threads) >>>> - Summary of new features/bug request and proposal for action >>>> - Formal support for XML schema validation -- survey user >>>> community to >>>> determine need for W3C schema versus DTD, RELAX NG? [DS] >>>> - physical bibliographies, dealing with comments from M >>>> McGillivray. I >>>> would like to appoint someone to review this (Paul?) >>>> - preparing our next F2F. My agenda is getting Pretty packed. I >>>> could >>>> suggest 9-10 Oct. close to a major accessible Airport (Paris >>>> could be >>>> one option, I can have a nice meeting place there) >>>> >>>> Le 17 ao?t 08 ? 19:59, Lou Burnard a ?crit : >>>> >>>> >>>>> aargh! please sort this out! >>>>> >>>>> i can do either 21st or 22nd -- but it's not clear which laurent >>>>> is >>>>> expecting. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> De : Lou Burnard >>>>> Date : 17 ao?t 2008 19:03:17 HAEC >>>>> ? : Gabriel Bodard >>>>> Objet : R?p : [tei-council] Message from Laurent: telecon next >>>>> Friday >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> My diary says the 21st. But thanks to your note, I am now utterly >>>>> confused! Since DPOD has to organise it, I'll go with whatever he >>>>> says. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Is this actually taking place on next Friday the 22nd, or >>>>>> Thursday >>>>>> 21st? (Since there is no Friday 21st this month.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Lou Burnard a ?crit : >>>>>> >>>>>>> Council members wondering what has happened to our chairman in >>>>>>> the last >>>>>>> few weeks will be glad to learn that he's now recovered from a >>>>>>> couple of >>>>>>> misfortunes which have been keeping him unnaturally quiet. At >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> start >>>>>>> of the month he was burgled and lost all the information on his >>>>>>> laptop; >>>>>>> recovering from backup is not so easy, but is underway, it >>>>>>> seems. >>>>>>> And >>>>>>> last week, he succumbed to a nasty flu infection. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have just been speaking to Laurent, and he asks me to confirm >>>>>>> that we >>>>>>> will be having our *planned Council teleconference next Friday* >>>>>>> and also >>>>>>> to request Daniel to organise this as before for 1500 Berlin >>>>>>> time >>>>>>> (1400 >>>>>>> GMT) on the 21st. An agenda will follow in due course, early >>>>>>> next >>>>>>> week, >>>>>>> but it's probably a good idea to check everyone has the call in >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> calendars now! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope to get a summary of the current state of outstanding >>>>>>> feature >>>>>>> requests ready over the weekend. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> tei-council mailing list >>>>>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>>>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/_______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Aug 18 12:24:32 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:24:32 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Tracker Item recommendations Message-ID: <48A9A240.1010307@oucs.ox.ac.uk> In preparation for this THURSDAY's meeting, the Oxford team has prepared a brief digest of recent SF Tracker items, both "bugs" and "feature requests". Please take a few minutes to read through the list before the call to see whether you are happy with the dispositions we are proposing for them. Digest is at http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw15.html Thanks in advanks From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Aug 19 05:16:04 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 10:16:04 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: [ tei-Feature Requests-2055864 ] Remove redundant iso-* attributes] Message-ID: <48AA8F54.9090309@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I forward Syd's comments on one of the "amber" sf tickets for the benefit of council members who haven't yet grocked sourceforge (are there any?) -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "SourceForge.net" Subject: [ tei-Feature Requests-2055864 ] Remove redundant iso-* attributes Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 00:32:58 +0000 Size: 6868 Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080819/1d5d2258/attachment.eml From elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk Wed Aug 20 10:31:04 2008 From: elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk (Elena Pierazzo) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:31:04 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] tomorrow's meeting Message-ID: <48AC2AA8.4090106@kcl.ac.uk> Hi all, is the line for the meeting already in place? Shell we use the same parameters set by Dan for the February meeting? Cheers, Elena -- Dr Elena Pierazzo Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk www.kcl.ac.uk From pfs-listmail at umich.edu Wed Aug 20 10:36:09 2008 From: pfs-listmail at umich.edu (Paul F. Schaffner) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] tomorrow's meeting In-Reply-To: <48AC2AA8.4090106@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48AC2AA8.4090106@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: If so, could someone remind me what those were? pfs On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, Elena Pierazzo wrote: > Hi all, > > is the line for the meeting already in place? Shell we use the same > parameters set by Dan for the February meeting? > > Cheers, > Elena > -- > Dr Elena Pierazzo > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > > Phone: 0207-848-1949 > Fax: 0207-848-2980 > elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk > www.kcl.ac.uk > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk Wed Aug 20 10:52:31 2008 From: elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk (Elena Pierazzo) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 15:52:31 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] tomorrow's meeting In-Reply-To: References: <48AC2AA8.4090106@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48AC2FAF.1050305@kcl.ac.uk> Here it is: > To use the HighSpeed Conferencing service, you may either call from: > > Skype Number: > +9900827041349998 > > OR > > Telephone Number: 605-475-8800 > > To use the HighSpeed Conferencing service, call (tollfree): > > From the US call #:1-888-350-0075 > From Canada call #:1-866-827-7799 > > Conference Room Number: 1349998 Paul F. Schaffner wrote: > If so, could someone remind me what those were? pfs > > On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, Elena Pierazzo wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> is the line for the meeting already in place? Shell we use the same >> parameters set by Dan for the February meeting? >> >> Cheers, >> Elena >> -- >> Dr Elena Pierazzo >> Research Associate >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL >> >> Phone: 0207-848-1949 >> Fax: 0207-848-2980 >> elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk >> www.kcl.ac.uk >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ > 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Dr Elena Pierazzo Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk www.kcl.ac.uk From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Aug 20 11:20:01 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:20:01 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] tomorrow's meeting In-Reply-To: <48AC2FAF.1050305@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48AC2AA8.4090106@kcl.ac.uk> <48AC2FAF.1050305@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks! I also did not retrieve the info. Laurent Le 20 ao?t 08 ? 16:52, Elena Pierazzo a ?crit : > Here it is: > > >> To use the HighSpeed Conferencing service, you may either call from: >> >> Skype Number: >> +9900827041349998 >> >> OR >> >> Telephone Number: 605-475-8800 >> >> To use the HighSpeed Conferencing service, call (tollfree): >> >> From the US call #:1-888-350-0075 >> From Canada call #:1-866-827-7799 >> >> Conference Room Number: 1349998 > > > > > Paul F. Schaffner wrote: >> If so, could someone remind me what those were? pfs >> >> On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, Elena Pierazzo wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> is the line for the meeting already in place? Shell we use the same >>> parameters set by Dan for the February meeting? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Elena >>> -- >>> Dr Elena Pierazzo >>> Research Associate >>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >>> King's College London >>> 26-29 Drury Lane >>> London WC2B 5RL >>> >>> Phone: 0207-848-1949 >>> Fax: 0207-848-2980 >>> elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk >>> www.kcl.ac.uk >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >>> >>> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ >> 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > Dr Elena Pierazzo > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > > Phone: 0207-848-1949 > Fax: 0207-848-2980 > elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk > www.kcl.ac.uk > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Aug 20 11:47:18 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Meeting Reminder In-Reply-To: <48AC380B.7050402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <33423503.1219238893410.JavaMail.SYSTEM@ewhserver104> <1219240023.26924.78.camel@gilgamesch.site> <48AC3402.7000900@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219245639.26924.126.camel@gilgamesch.site> <48AC380B.7050402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: I just checked the Membership settings on the TEI-Council list, and sure enough, mail was disabled for Manfred's account, with a flag indicating that there had been excessive bounces to the address. (This must have happened some time ago.) The old address was manfred.thaller at spinfo.uni-koeln.de. I have re-subscribed Manfred as "manfred.thaller at uni-koeln.de". Manfred, you should get a copy of this email via the list--let me know if you don't. You can see previous mail at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/ David On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, James Cummings wrote: > Manfred Thaller wrote: > > > Coincidentally already just answered on the council list. > > I get a terrible suspicion. Can it be, that I somehow still did not make > > it on the council list? Inany case, I did just receive your direct > > reply, NOT anything which has been posted to a list, however. And yes, I > > did check my SPAM sink (though all filters have been turned off). > > > > Slightly confused, > > Manfred > > > Manfred: Information pasted below. > > David/Laurent: Can you ensure Manfred is indeed on the council list? > > > ====== > > >> To use the HighSpeed Conferencing service, you may either call from: > > >> > > >> Skype Number: > > >> +9900827041349998 > > >> > > >> OR > > >> > > >> Telephone Number: 605-475-8800 > > >> > > >> To use the HighSpeed Conferencing service, call (tollfree): > > >> > > >> From the US call #:1-888-350-0075 > > >> From Canada call #:1-866-827-7799 > > >> > > >> Conference Room Number: 1349998 > > > > > > > > > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Aug 20 12:46:00 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (O'Donnell, Dan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 10:46:00 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] tomorrow's meeting Message-ID: <012801c902e9$8b76ed6c$1e07428e@uleth.ca> Yes. The line is always available. And the information is always the same: it's my personal conference space which I donate to the TEI. BTW. One person last year was double-billed (haven't resolved it yet) last time. Check your statements after the call, especially if you connect & disconnectt during the call. -----Original Message----- From: "Elena Pierazzo" Subj: [tei-council] tomorrow's meeting Date: Wed 20 Aug 2008 8:32 Size: 554 bytes To: "TEI Council" Hi all, is the line for the meeting already in place? Shell we use the same parameters set by Dan for the February meeting? Cheers, Elena -- Dr Elena Pierazzo Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk www.kcl.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Aug 20 13:28:41 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] tomorrow's meeting In-Reply-To: <012801c902e9$8b76ed6c$1e07428e@uleth.ca> References: <012801c902e9$8b76ed6c$1e07428e@uleth.ca> Message-ID: I believe that the call is free if one calls via Skype using the Skype number, correct? (At any rate I just tested it, and a call lasting for a couple of minutes didn't reduce my Skype balance at all.) I have a headset that I can use tomorrow, which should make it easier to take minutes (otherwise I have to use a conventional speakerphone while typing). On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, O'Donnell, Dan wrote: > Yes. The line is always available. And the information is always the same: it's my personal conference space which I donate to the TEI. > > BTW. One person last year was double-billed (haven't resolved it yet) last time. Check your statements after the call, especially if you connect & disconnectt during the call. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Elena Pierazzo" > Subj: [tei-council] tomorrow's meeting > Date: Wed 20 Aug 2008 8:32 > Size: 554 bytes > To: "TEI Council" > > Hi all, > > is the line for the meeting already in place? Shell we use the same > parameters set by Dan for the February meeting? > > Cheers, > Elena > -- > Dr Elena Pierazzo > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > > Phone: 0207-848-1949 > Fax: 0207-848-2980 > elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk > www.kcl.ac.uk > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Aug 20 13:50:00 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (O'Donnell, Dan) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:50:00 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] tomorrow's meeting Message-ID: <012b01c902ee$004fe36c$1e07428e@uleth.ca> Yes. Calling with Skype is free to everybody involved. Only landlines are charged. The account comes with something like 100 toll free minutes as well, but a group like the council uses that up pretty quick, and then I start getting billed, which is why I ask that you use a non-toll-free number for you country if your institution will pay and you can't use skype. If one or two people can't call from skype or an institutional line then they could use the toll free number. -dan (who is very busy with budgets personal and TEI at the moment) -----Original Message----- From: "David Sewell" Subj: Re: [tei-council] tomorrow's meeting Date: Wed 20 Aug 2008 11:28 Size: 2K To: "O'Donnell, Dan" cc: "TEI Council" I believe that the call is free if one calls via Skype using the Skype number, correct? (At any rate I just tested it, and a call lasting for a couple of minutes didn't reduce my Skype balance at all.) I have a headset that I can use tomorrow, which should make it easier to take minutes (otherwise I have to use a conventional speakerphone while typing). On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, O'Donnell, Dan wrote: > Yes. The line is always available. And the information is always the same: it's my personal conference space which I donate to the TEI. > > BTW. One person last year was double-billed (haven't resolved it yet) last time. Check your statements after the call, especially if you connect & disconnectt during the call. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Elena Pierazzo" > Subj: [tei-council] tomorrow's meeting > Date: Wed 20 Aug 2008 8:32 > Size: 554 bytes > To: "TEI Council" > > Hi all, > > is the line for the meeting already in place? Shell we use the same > parameters set by Dan for the February meeting? > > Cheers, > Elena > -- > Dr Elena Pierazzo > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > > Phone: 0207-848-1949 > Fax: 0207-848-2980 > elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk > www.kcl.ac.uk > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From pboot at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 20 16:12:26 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 22:12:26 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started Message-ID: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> Hello all, On http://peterboot.nl/tei/gettingstarted.html I have placed a proposed outline for a 'getting started' document. It also includes some thoughts about the content, purpose and audience of the document. For each section, I estimate the number of paragraphs that it may take. Arianna has already suggested some improvements. After feedback from the Council I could write some of these sections myself and maybe ask for volunteers for other sections. I look forward to your comments. Do I put this into svn myself? If so, can somebody authorise me to do so? Peter From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Aug 21 04:15:43 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 10:15:43 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Telco - Agenda Message-ID: <2B6E084D-C4A3-4C30-9806-EA7EC97ADB34@loria.fr> Dear all, Here's the current agenda for this afternoon Telco: - Summary of new features/bug request and proposal for action [Oxford]: see http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw15.html - Formal support for XML schema validation -- survey user community to determine need for W3C schema versus DTD, RELAX NG? [DS] - physical bibliographies, dealing with comments from M McGillivray. I would like to appoint someone to review this (Paul?) - Getting started initiative: see http://peterboot.nl/tei/gettingstarted.html - preparing our next F2F. My agenda is getting Pretty packed. I could suggest 9-10 Oct. close to a major accessible Airport (Paris could be one option, I can have a nice meeting place there) Connexion details: To use the HighSpeed Conferencing service, you may either call from: Skype Number: +9900827041349998 OR Telephone Number: 605-475-8800 To use the HighSpeed Conferencing service, call (tollfree): From the US call #:1-888-350-0075 From Canada call #:1-866-827-7799 Conference Room Number: 1349998 From elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk Fri Aug 22 04:50:41 2008 From: elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk (Elena Pierazzo) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 09:50:41 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Comments on Getting Started Message-ID: <48AE7DE1.407@kcl.ac.uk> Hi all, following the request of Peter and of the council I post here my comments on the Getting Started document. In general, I really like the cut and the way the goals are expressed. I do have so fare two main comments: 1. I think that a short chapter on text analysis would be of great help. From my teaching experience I have noticed that for someone that it is really complicated for someone that is used to work on Word to understand the rationale of semantic markup and use elements like

and ; tables are really complicated. Once these concepts are passed, it's then relatively easier understand other kinf of inline markup. 2. The fact that we are including screenshots and editor specific instruction imply that the document will need a regular (and frequent) maintenance as editors tend to change very quickly. Versions of editors, processors and browsers are an issue to be considered carefully. For instance: for Oxygen are we offering support for the full program of just for the Author version of it? etc. I volunteer for helping with the writing, if Peter, Arianna and the others (I forgot who else is in the group) need it. I hope that helps. Elena -- Dr Elena Pierazzo Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk www.kcl.ac.uk From dsewell at virginia.edu Sat Aug 23 17:56:50 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 17:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Aug 2008, Peter Boot wrote: > Do I put this into svn myself? If so, can somebody authorise me to do so? It seems to me that the Getting Started guide merits a top-level directory in the TEI Sourceforge repository, but what do others think? Lou, Sebastian, and Syd are the project managers for the TEI SF project, so if you all concur...? If we do this, the next step (following initial feedback) would be to decide on the organization of the directory: division of files, directory for images, etc. Although anyone with write-access to the repository can add files or directories, decisions about naming systems, etc., should be agreed on by the group, I think. In addition, Peter and anyone else who will be authoring the document will need to be added to TEI-SF with developer status if they are not already: https://sourceforge.net/project/memberlist.php?group_id=106328 And that requires as a preliminary step that you have a SourceForge account: https://sourceforge.net/account/registration/ David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Sat Aug 23 21:25:17 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 21:25:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Comments on "Getting Started" proposal Message-ID: Peter, I think the proposed outline of contents is excellent. It moves from simple/general to more specific and advanced topics in the appropriate way (which distinguishes it from the TEI Guidelines, whose first chapter is quite demanding and makes more sense to someone who has already been working with TEI for a while). It seems to me that there is a natural division between the basic/intermediate sections that virtually every user will need to cover (outline chapters 1-8) and advanced topics (9-Schemas; and Elena's suggested chapter on textual analysis, if we agree to add it). Another way to look at it is that chapters 1-6 are applicable to anyone working with TEI files, including assistants who are simply adding or correcting content following project guidelines; chapters 7 and beyond are more applicable to people in charge of projects (including independent work) or designing TEI-based publications. (This could be explained to readers in the introductory material.) I'll volunteer to help with authoring and editing. Would it make sense to put the outline document on the TEI Wiki, to make it easier for people to edit it and keep up to date with changes? (We could use a "private" Wiki page, not linked from elsewhere, so that the document and our comments wouldn't be open to the public while work is in progress.) A few specific comments on the different sections: ====== "About the getting started document" Audience As someone (Dan I believe) said during our last telco, we should also include in our target audience people who are not themselves specialist scholars but who are, or will be, working as encoders with a project. These may be undergraduates, editorial assistants, etc. We can assume that they are equally motivated with the academic readers, but they may not be familiar with the technical vocabulary of textual studies, bibliography, etc. Software It will take some discussion and maybe experimentation to decide just how to present the examples connected with different software platforms. One option would be to illustrate each major task with screen shots and instructions for each of the platforms we decide to include. Or we could choose a single platform, say oXygen, for the main presentation, and link to illustrations of how tasks are handled in the other platforms via appendices. (Or we could be very clever and compose alternate texts for the software sections that would be toggled via reader choice in the online version?) Contents "We explain RELAX using the XML syntax, and mention the existence of the compact syntax." This should be discussed further. In my experience the syntax of DTDs or Relax NG compact is easier to grasp, and better to use for the very first example of how schema rules constrain a document. In chapter 3, we could offer an example of an extremely simple non-TEI XML language with maybe three elements and one attribute, and show the Relax NG compact schema used to validate it. Later, in chapter 9, we could explain the relation between the XML and compact forms of Relax NG and use the XML form in relation to the ODD discussion. This is more or less the way that things work elswhere in the TEI world: the "Gentle Introduction to XML" uses compact syntax, and the Element reference in the Guidelines defaults to compact; but in the Guidelines chapters on ODD, the RELAX NG XML syntax is necessarily used. -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Aug 26 18:48:14 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 16:48:14 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> > > Do I put this into svn myself? If so, can somebody authorise me to do so? As David I think it was suggested, this is presumably for Laurent, Lou, and/or Sebastian to decide. > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) Director, Digital Medievalist Project (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) Associate Professor of English Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Tue Aug 26 22:16:53 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Draft teleconference minutes -- please review Message-ID: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm39-temp.xml (Lou, you have a lock on tcm39.xml that I can't remove.) Please send me any corrections or additions. I'll add it formally on our Meetings page this weekend. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Aug 27 04:12:57 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 10:12:57 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> Message-ID: <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> Dear all, I cannot judge technically, but anything which can help this move forward will receive my full support :-) Best, Laurent Le 27 ao?t 08 ? 00:48, Dan O'Donnell a ?crit : > >> >> Do I put this into svn myself? If so, can somebody authorise me to >> do so? > > As David I think it was suggested, this is presumably for Laurent, > Lou, > and/or Sebastian to decide. > >> >> Peter >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- > Daniel Paul O'Donnell > Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) > Director, Digital Medievalist Project > (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) > Associate Professor of English > Department of English > University of Lethbridge > Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 > > vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 > fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 > email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca > homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 27 13:44:06 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 18:44:06 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Requests 1925125 and 1933198 Message-ID: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> While discussing feature request tickets number 1721365, and especially 1925125 and 1933198, Gabby (with stupid questions from me) fleshed out some proposals on some new attribute classes and a new element. Since they are all related I cut-and-paste with minor edits from the feature requests so that Council can decide these. The proposals are: Request 1925125 (1) we need to define the four new attributes, (@min, @max, at atLeast, @atMost) in a new attribute class, as previously discussed, perhaps "att.ranging" or similar. (The element mentioned below will then be a member of att.ranging but not att.dimensions.) (2) the existing @precision attribute should be defined within att.dimensions __but **not** att.editLike or att.ranging__. It is really a bug that many of the members of att.editLike currently have @precision. Request 1933198 (1) We should create a new element, basically in parallel with but recording precision. (2) This element is a member of "att.ranging" (newly defined class, see #1925125; contains @min, @max, @atLeast, @atMost) (3) This element is also a member of a newly defined class (?"att.qualifier") containing @degree, @locus, @target (to which will now also belong) (4) define one new attribute, @stdDeviation, for recording the standard deviation of a number, range, or approximation. (data.numeric is probably appropriate for this attribute, but prose at least should indicate that value should be positive.) If council could have a quick look at these tickets and comment here or on SF then these could maybe be upgraded to GREEN. Gabby: Did I forget to mention anything? Would you like to explain more? -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Aug 27 14:46:34 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:46:34 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> Message-ID: <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> Then I think the thing to do Peter is check with Lou and/or Sebastian about where they would like it placed, if they don't mind and set it up. -dan On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 10:12 +0200, Laurent Romary wrote: > Dear all, > I cannot judge technically, but anything which can help this move > forward will receive my full support :-) > Best, > Laurent > > > Le 27 ao?t 08 ? 00:48, Dan O'Donnell a ?crit : > > > > >> > >> Do I put this into svn myself? If so, can somebody authorise me to > >> do so? > > > > As David I think it was suggested, this is presumably for Laurent, > > Lou, > > and/or Sebastian to decide. > > > >> > >> Peter > >> _______________________________________________ > >> tei-council mailing list > >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > -- > > Daniel Paul O'Donnell > > Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) > > Director, Digital Medievalist Project > > (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) > > Associate Professor of English > > Department of English > > University of Lethbridge > > Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 > > > > vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 > > fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 > > email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca > > homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) Director, Digital Medievalist Project (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) Associate Professor of English Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Aug 27 14:53:31 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> Message-ID: I've already suggested a couple of options to Sebastian offline. It's mainly a question of how best to structure the repository; a new top-level Documents directory may be the way to go, as that could be used in future for whatever official documents we sponsor, without cluttering things up too much David On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Dan O'Donnell wrote: > Then I think the thing to do Peter is check with Lou and/or Sebastian > about where they would like it placed, if they don't mind and set it up. > > -dan > > On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 10:12 +0200, Laurent Romary wrote: > > Dear all, > > I cannot judge technically, but anything which can help this move > > forward will receive my full support :-) > > Best, > > Laurent > > > > > > Le 27 ao?t 08 ? 00:48, Dan O'Donnell a ?crit : > > > > > > > >> > > >> Do I put this into svn myself? If so, can somebody authorise me to > > >> do so? > > > > > > As David I think it was suggested, this is presumably for Laurent, > > > Lou, > > > and/or Sebastian to decide. > > > > > >> > > >> Peter > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> tei-council mailing list > > >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > -- > > > Daniel Paul O'Donnell > > > Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) > > > Director, Digital Medievalist Project > > > (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) > > > Associate Professor of English > > > Department of English > > > University of Lethbridge > > > Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 > > > > > > vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 > > > fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 > > > email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca > > > homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > tei-council mailing list > > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > -- > Daniel Paul O'Donnell > Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) > Director, Digital Medievalist Project > (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) > Associate Professor of English > Department of English > University of Lethbridge > Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 > > vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 > fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 > email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca > homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 27 14:57:27 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:57:27 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> Message-ID: <48B5A397.9070203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> sorry for the delay. I just need to know Peter's Sourceforge username and I can add him with the right powers -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 27 14:59:28 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:59:28 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> Message-ID: <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> yes, I agree with David, we should have an area for Documents or Papers or Books, to isolate this class of things. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Aug 27 15:11:46 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:11:46 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> I've also set up a folder on the TEI main website for council storage, though svn might be better. Should we maybe consider leaving all material there instead of at TEI-C. Except the minutes and agendas, of course since they've historically gone at tei-c. -dan On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 19:59 +0100, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > yes, I agree with David, we should have an area for Documents or Papers > or Books, to isolate this class of things. -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) Director, Digital Medievalist Project (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) Associate Professor of English Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 27 15:23:20 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:23:20 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> Message-ID: <48B5A9A8.3040007@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Dan O'Donnell wrote: > I've also set up a folder on the TEI main website for council storage, > though svn might be better. Should we maybe consider leaving all > material there instead of at TEI-C. Except the minutes and agendas, of > course since they've historically gone at tei-c. > What is "the TEI main website"? I know of only the sourceforge repository (managed by svn) and the TEI consortium official website (managed at virginia under opencms) Where is this folder and why is it necessary? > -dan > > > On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 19:59 +0100, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> yes, I agree with David, we should have an area for Documents or Papers >> or Books, to isolate this class of things. >> From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Aug 27 15:42:40 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:42:40 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <48B5A9A8.3040007@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A9A8.3040007@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1219866160.11408.69.camel@wiglaf> On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 20:23 +0100, Lou's Laptop wrote: > Dan O'Donnell wrote: > > I've also set up a folder on the TEI main website for council storage, > > though svn might be better. Should we maybe consider leaving all > > material there instead of at TEI-C. Except the minutes and agendas, of > > course since they've historically gone at tei-c. > > > > What is "the TEI main website"? I know of only the sourceforge > repository (managed by svn) and the TEI consortium official website > (managed at virginia under opencms) Hmm. I'd have thought that "main" would be a reasonably close shorthand for "the TEI consortium official website (managed at virginia under opencms)," especially in the context of a contrast with the svn server (aka "the sourceforge repository (managed by svn)") and when further described later in the sentence as "TEI-C". But perhaps I underestimated the difficulties of following the discussion. > > Where is this folder and why is it necessary? The folder is there because I was asked to get one put on "the TEI consortium official website (managed at virginia under opencms)" when we were in Galway in response to complaints that Council had no place to put documents on "the TEI consortium official website (managed at virginia under opencms)." In general, it was felt that "the TEI consortium official website (managed at virginia under opencms)" was not as responsive as it could be to the needs of Council and I was asked to start doing something about it, which I did. However, as the current point under discussion suggests, it may be wiser to not use such space on "the TEI consortium official website (managed at virginia under opencms)" after all: perhaps it is better to store such working material at "the sourceforge repository (managed by svn)" using a directory structure similar to that proposed by David. > > > -dan > > > > > > On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 19:59 +0100, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > > >> yes, I agree with David, we should have an area for Documents or Papers > >> or Books, to isolate this class of things. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) Director, Digital Medievalist Project (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) Associate Professor of English Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From pboot at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 27 15:54:43 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:54:43 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <1219866160.11408.69.camel@wiglaf> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A9A8.3040007@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219866160.11408.69.camel@wiglaf> Message-ID: <48B5B103.4080003@xs4all.nl> Dan O'Donnell schreef: > > In general, it was felt that "the TEI consortium official website > (managed at virginia under opencms)" was not as responsive as it > could be to the needs of Council and I was asked to start doing > something about it, which I did. However, as the current point under > discussion suggests, it may be wiser to not use such space on "the > TEI consortium official website (managed at virginia under opencms)" > after all: perhaps it is better to store such working material at > "the sourceforge repository (managed by svn)" using a directory > structure similar to that proposed by David. > For source documents, svn is fine, but for something that you want the world, or fellow council members, to read, a plain website such as tei-c may be more appropriate. (I'm thinking of an html version of the getting started document, but there might be more.) Peter From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 27 16:00:33 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:00:33 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <48B5B103.4080003@xs4all.nl> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A9A8.3040007@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219866160.11408.69.camel@wiglaf> <48B5B103.4080003@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48B5B261.3000905@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Call me an old fuddy duddy if you will, but I think TEi council documents should be produced and edited in TEI. Not HTML. Peter Boot wrote: > Dan O'Donnell schreef: > >> In general, it was felt that "the TEI consortium official website >> (managed at virginia under opencms)" was not as responsive as it >> could be to the needs of Council and I was asked to start doing >> something about it, which I did. However, as the current point under >> discussion suggests, it may be wiser to not use such space on "the >> TEI consortium official website (managed at virginia under opencms)" >> after all: perhaps it is better to store such working material at >> "the sourceforge repository (managed by svn)" using a directory >> structure similar to that proposed by David. >> >> > For source documents, svn is fine, but for something that you want the > world, or fellow council members, to read, a plain website such as tei-c > may be more appropriate. (I'm thinking of an html version of the getting > started document, but there might be more.) > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Aug 27 16:05:24 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 14:05:24 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <48B5B261.3000905@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A9A8.3040007@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219866160.11408.69.camel@wiglaf> <48B5B103.4080003@xs4all.nl> <48B5B261.3000905@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1219867524.11408.79.camel@wiglaf> I've heard that some people are quite insane about this TEI business ;). In fact though, the whole tei-c site is generated from tei-xml anyway (I suppose there may be a PDF or something that is not, but all the text is TEI/XML). -dan On Wed, 2008-08-27 at 21:00 +0100, Lou's Laptop wrote: > Call me an old fuddy duddy if you will, but I think TEi council > documents should be produced and edited in TEI. Not HTML. > > > Peter Boot wrote: > > Dan O'Donnell schreef: > > > >> In general, it was felt that "the TEI consortium official website > >> (managed at virginia under opencms)" was not as responsive as it > >> could be to the needs of Council and I was asked to start doing > >> something about it, which I did. However, as the current point under > >> discussion suggests, it may be wiser to not use such space on "the > >> TEI consortium official website (managed at virginia under opencms)" > >> after all: perhaps it is better to store such working material at > >> "the sourceforge repository (managed by svn)" using a directory > >> structure similar to that proposed by David. > >> > >> > > For source documents, svn is fine, but for something that you want the > > world, or fellow council members, to read, a plain website such as tei-c > > may be more appropriate. (I'm thinking of an html version of the getting > > started document, but there might be more.) > > > > Peter > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) Director, Digital Medievalist Project (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) Associate Professor of English Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From pboot at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 27 16:20:47 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:20:47 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <48B5B261.3000905@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A9A8.3040007@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219866160.11408.69.camel@wiglaf> <48B5B103.4080003@xs4all.nl> <48B5B261.3000905@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48B5B71F.1080205@xs4all.nl> Lou's Laptop schreef: > Call me an old fuddy duddy if you will, but I think TEi council > documents should be produced and edited in TEI. Not HTML. I intend produce a TEI document, but I don't expect people that want e.g. to review the document to read the XML. Which is why I assumed there should be a place outside of subversion to store either a generated HTML version or the original XML, to be transformed by the CMS. Peter > Peter Boot wrote: >> Dan O'Donnell schreef: >> >>> In general, it was felt that "the TEI consortium official website >>> (managed at virginia under opencms)" was not as responsive as it >>> could be to the needs of Council and I was asked to start doing >>> something about it, which I did. However, as the current point under >>> discussion suggests, it may be wiser to not use such space on "the >>> TEI consortium official website (managed at virginia under opencms)" >>> after all: perhaps it is better to store such working material at >>> "the sourceforge repository (managed by svn)" using a directory >>> structure similar to that proposed by David. >>> >>> >> For source documents, svn is fine, but for something that you want the >> world, or fellow council members, to read, a plain website such as tei-c >> may be more appropriate. (I'm thinking of an html version of the getting >> started document, but there might be more.) >> >> Peter >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Aug 27 17:26:28 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:26:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <48B5B71F.1080205@xs4all.nl> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A9A8.3040007@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219866160.11408.69.camel@wiglaf> <48B5B103.4080003@xs4all.nl> <48B5B261.3000905@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48B5B71F.1080205@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Aug 2008, Peter Boot wrote: > I intend produce a TEI document, but I don't expect people that want > e.g. to review the document to read the XML. Which is why I assumed > there should be a place outside of subversion to store either a > generated HTML version or the original XML, to be transformed by the > CMS. As a repository for work-in-progress on "Getting Started", it seems to me we have three choices: 1. The existing TEI SourceForge Subversion repository, under a new directory; 2. The OpenCMS system on www.tei-c.org, in a dedicated folder; 3. Some other repository that one of us could create. There are pros and cons to each, mostly connected with convenience and security. 1. SECURITY. Anything we store on SourceForge is, so far as I know, publically viewable by anyone via the SVN browser. In addition, any registered SourceForge user can use a Subversion client to download everything there (that's part of the point of having our release stuff kept there). Only TEI project members with developer status can edit it, though. So SF is not appropriate for genuinely confidential material. (I doubt that drafts of "Getting Started" are in that category.) On the TEI OpenCMS, anything in the repository that is "published" in the system is viewable by the whole world via the website. We could store private material only in the "offline" state, which only registered users could see, but that's a bit clunky--the point of OpenCMS is to enable editing and publishing of website pages. If we have any material we consider truly private, it should probably be kept in a separate repository with password-protected access. I don't think "Getting Started" drafts require that. 2. CONVENIENCE. A directory structure in the SF repository can easily be copied to one's local machine via a Subversion client. I haven't worked with OpenCMS a lot, but it seems a bit clunkier at moving material back and forth from local machine to repository. Both Subversion and OpenCMS keep version histories, and one can view diffs in both. One major convenience feature of OpenCMS is that it allows one-click viewing of the XML files stored there as transformed HTML. On the other hand, the transform uses a stylesheet that was designed specifically for the TEI website material, which might not be optimal for "Getting Started". It isn't hard to get a styled version of TEI-XML locally if one has the appropriate stylesheet. Finally, there's the question of whether we envisage "Getting Started" in its final form as a section of the TEI website, with its table of contents in the left-hand sidebar and text in the right content area (in which case it would need to be served via OpenCMS); or as a separate deliverable, like the Guidelines, which would logically be maintained under Subversion and installed in the release directory, by analogy with http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/index-toc.html Considering all of that, my vote would be for creating and maintaining "Getting Started" on SourceForge, as I see it closer in nature to the Guidelines than to the TEI website sections. (Particularly because it is intended to be output in at least PDF format as well as HTML.) David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 27 17:28:07 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:28:07 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> Message-ID: <48B5C6E7.3020507@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Dan O'Donnell wrote: > I've also set up a folder on the TEI main website for council storage, > though svn might be better. Should we maybe consider leaving all > material there instead of at TEI-C. except that you dont get any rendering of docs. so SF is best for material which should really be regarded as source, not directly-readable. And I'd guess this GS doc falls into that category. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Aug 27 17:33:21 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:33:21 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A9A8.3040007@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219866160.11408.69.camel@wiglaf> <48B5B103.4080003@xs4all.nl> <48B5B261.3000905@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48B5B71F.1080205@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48B5C821.1090600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> please lets not use OpenCMS for anything more! I deeply regret its use for the TEI web site, and I'd hate to rely on it for editing this doc. assuming we do want a genuinely open document, with multiple authors, written in TEI, with lots of external files (eg images), and various output formats, then using Subversion on SF is just perfect. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Aug 27 20:12:56 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 18:12:56 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A9A8.3040007@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219866160.11408.69.camel@wiglaf> <48B5B103.4080003@xs4all.nl> <48B5B261.3000905@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48B5B71F.1080205@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1219882376.12732.6.camel@wiglaf> > Considering all of that, my vote would be for creating and maintaining > "Getting Started" on SourceForge, as I see it closer in nature to the > Guidelines than to the TEI website sections. (Particularly because it > is intended to be output in at least PDF format as well as HTML.) Yes, I agree with this David: your (reported second-hand) suggestions to Sebastian about the directory structures at SF made the point about the relationship between this (most council documents, probably), and the guidelines. > > David > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) Director, Digital Medievalist Project (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) Associate Professor of English Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Aug 27 22:06:00 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (O'Donnell, Dan) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:06:00 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] SIG for dictionaries? Message-ID: <022201c908b3$7161ab48$2907428e@uleth.ca> did we ever discuss this? Dan @ Treo -----Original Message----- From: "laurent.romary at loria.fr" Subj: Re: [tei-council] SIG for dictionaries? Date: Mon 4 Aug 2008 6:08 Size: 1K To: "Susan Schreibman" cc: "TEI Council" We can put this on the agenda of the next TelCo, if I manage to get a hand on my own messages (burglqry => no laptop...). Cheers, Laurent Susan Schreibman a ?crit?: > I don't ever remember a SIG for dictionaries. But there is no reason one > can't be formed! It would take two people to take ownership of it and > propose it to the Council via me. If you know two or three people who > want to take ownership, have them get in touch with me. > > susan > > > Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> Is there, or has there ever been, a TEI SIG for >> dictionaries/lexicography? Should there be? >> >> I ask because I know several people for whom the current dictionary >> module is inadequate to their needs, and some are using home-brewed XML >> as a result (yuk!). >> >> G >> >> >> > > -- > Susan Schreibman, PhD > Director > Digital Humanities Observatory > 28-32 Pembroke Street Upper > Dublin 2 > -- A project of the Royal Irish Academy -- > > Phone: +353 1 234 2440 > Mobile: +353 86 049 1966 > Fax: +353 1 234 2588 > Email:` s.schreibman at ria.ie > > http://dho.ie > http://irith.org > http://macgreevy.org > http://v-machine.org > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Aug 28 03:14:50 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:14:50 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <48B5C6E7.3020507@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5C6E7.3020507@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20080828071450.E6A2A804B@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/pipermail/tei-council/attachments/20080828/5089a396/attachment.pl From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Aug 28 04:08:37 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 09:08:37 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <20080828071450.E6A2A804B@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5C6E7.3020507@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080828071450.E6A2A804B@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48B65D05.400@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Lou Burnard wrote: > What we should have is an automated way of publishing material from the SF > repository to the OpenCMS site. That shouldn't be beyond the wit of > information services, surely. > not sure what you have in mind with "information services" there, but really, its entirely down to what Virginia can do. I think they need to set up a system which syncs itself daily/hourly with the state of the repository on Sourceforge, builds HTML and PDF renderings of the GS doc, and puts them where Apache will deliver them. I don't think OpenCMS needs to get involved at all. David, this is sort of your pigeon? if you agree, maybe you can discuss with Chris? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Aug 28 04:23:00 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:23:00 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] SIG for dictionaries? In-Reply-To: <022201c908b3$7161ab48$2907428e@uleth.ca> References: <022201c908b3$7161ab48$2907428e@uleth.ca> Message-ID: <21C2F81C-27EC-4150-9E3C-164902D66EE9@loria.fr> No we haven't. This is a remaining of my stolen laptop... sight. My opinion is that this should be a bottom up initiative if there is a critical mass of volunteers. Otherwise the risk is that we do not receive an adequate echo if we launch something out of the blue. Would Gabriel be eager to take the lead and look around for aggregates? Laurent Le 28 ao?t 08 ? 04:06, O'Donnell, Dan a ?crit : > did we ever discuss this? > > Dan @ Treo > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "laurent.romary at loria.fr" > Subj: Re: [tei-council] SIG for dictionaries? > Date: Mon 4 Aug 2008 6:08 > Size: 1K > To: "Susan Schreibman" > cc: "TEI Council" > > We can put this on the agenda of the next TelCo, if I manage to get a > hand on my own messages (burglqry => no laptop...). > Cheers, > Laurent > > > Susan Schreibman a ?crit : > >> I don't ever remember a SIG for dictionaries. But there is no >> reason one >> can't be formed! It would take two people to take ownership of it and >> propose it to the Council via me. If you know two or three people who >> want to take ownership, have them get in touch with me. >> >> susan >> >> >> Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> Is there, or has there ever been, a TEI SIG for >>> dictionaries/lexicography? Should there be? >>> >>> I ask because I know several people for whom the current dictionary >>> module is inadequate to their needs, and some are using home- >>> brewed XML >>> as a result (yuk!). >>> >>> G >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Susan Schreibman, PhD >> Director >> Digital Humanities Observatory >> 28-32 Pembroke Street Upper >> Dublin 2 >> -- A project of the Royal Irish Academy -- >> >> Phone: +353 1 234 2440 >> Mobile: +353 86 049 1966 >> Fax: +353 1 234 2588 >> Email:` s.schreibman at ria.ie >> >> http://dho.ie >> http://irith.org >> http://macgreevy.org >> http://v-machine.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Aug 28 04:25:00 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 09:25:00 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <20080828071450.E6A2A804B@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5C6E7.3020507@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080828071450.E6A2A804B@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48B660DC.2000500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I have given Peter write access to the TEI Subversion, and started to people Documents; view http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tei/trunk/Documents/ and you'll see the "how to make a TEI release" and "oddmanual" (the mythical Customisation Handbook). if there's anything else we have which belongs in Documents, just shout. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Thu Aug 28 05:31:55 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:31:55 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] SIG for dictionaries? In-Reply-To: <21C2F81C-27EC-4150-9E3C-164902D66EE9@loria.fr> References: <022201c908b3$7161ab48$2907428e@uleth.ca> <21C2F81C-27EC-4150-9E3C-164902D66EE9@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48B6708B.9060502@kcl.ac.uk> I am still in discussion with the two people I had in mind when I suggested it. (We were talking about this only yesterday, in fact.) I'll let you know as soon as I've pinned them down or identified any other candidates. I was assuming that I wouldn't actually have anything to do with running this SIG, however (presumably Laurent would be the Council liaison?). I'll chase things up and report back shortly. G Laurent Romary a ?crit : > No we haven't. This is a remaining of my stolen laptop... sight. > > My opinion is that this should be a bottom up initiative if there is a > critical mass of volunteers. Otherwise the risk is that we do not > receive an adequate echo if we launch something out of the blue. > Would Gabriel be eager to take the lead and look around for aggregates? > > Laurent > > > Le 28 ao?t 08 ? 04:06, O'Donnell, Dan a ?crit : > >> did we ever discuss this? >> >> Dan @ Treo >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: "laurent.romary at loria.fr" >> Subj: Re: [tei-council] SIG for dictionaries? >> Date: Mon 4 Aug 2008 6:08 >> Size: 1K >> To: "Susan Schreibman" >> cc: "TEI Council" >> >> We can put this on the agenda of the next TelCo, if I manage to get a >> hand on my own messages (burglqry => no laptop...). >> Cheers, >> Laurent >> >> >> Susan Schreibman a ?crit : >> >>> I don't ever remember a SIG for dictionaries. But there is no >>> reason one >>> can't be formed! It would take two people to take ownership of it and >>> propose it to the Council via me. If you know two or three people who >>> want to take ownership, have them get in touch with me. >>> >>> susan >>> >>> >>> Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>> Is there, or has there ever been, a TEI SIG for >>>> dictionaries/lexicography? Should there be? >>>> >>>> I ask because I know several people for whom the current dictionary >>>> module is inadequate to their needs, and some are using home- >>>> brewed XML >>>> as a result (yuk!). >>>> >>>> G >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Susan Schreibman, PhD >>> Director >>> Digital Humanities Observatory >>> 28-32 Pembroke Street Upper >>> Dublin 2 >>> -- A project of the Royal Irish Academy -- >>> >>> Phone: +353 1 234 2440 >>> Mobile: +353 86 049 1966 >>> Fax: +353 1 234 2588 >>> Email:` s.schreibman at ria.ie >>> >>> http://dho.ie >>> http://irith.org >>> http://macgreevy.org >>> http://v-machine.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Aug 28 05:38:56 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 11:38:56 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] SIG for dictionaries? In-Reply-To: <48B6708B.9060502@kcl.ac.uk> References: <022201c908b3$7161ab48$2907428e@uleth.ca> <21C2F81C-27EC-4150-9E3C-164902D66EE9@loria.fr> <48B6708B.9060502@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <18EB62CA-D433-484C-8CA1-A3DA1E1ADEDF@loria.fr> Indeed, it would be my pleasure to be the council liaison there. Keep us informed. Laurent Le 28 ao?t 08 ? 11:31, Gabriel Bodard a ?crit : > I am still in discussion with the two people I had in mind when I > suggested it. (We were talking about this only yesterday, in fact.) > I'll > let you know as soon as I've pinned them down or identified any other > candidates. I was assuming that I wouldn't actually have anything to > do > with running this SIG, however (presumably Laurent would be the > Council > liaison?). > > I'll chase things up and report back shortly. > > G > > Laurent Romary a ?crit : >> No we haven't. This is a remaining of my stolen laptop... sight. >> >> My opinion is that this should be a bottom up initiative if there >> is a >> critical mass of volunteers. Otherwise the risk is that we do not >> receive an adequate echo if we launch something out of the blue. >> Would Gabriel be eager to take the lead and look around for >> aggregates? >> >> Laurent >> >> >> Le 28 ao?t 08 ? 04:06, O'Donnell, Dan a ?crit : >> >>> did we ever discuss this? >>> >>> Dan @ Treo >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >>> From: "laurent.romary at loria.fr" >>> Subj: Re: [tei-council] SIG for dictionaries? >>> Date: Mon 4 Aug 2008 6:08 >>> Size: 1K >>> To: "Susan Schreibman" >>> cc: "TEI Council" >>> >>> We can put this on the agenda of the next TelCo, if I manage to >>> get a >>> hand on my own messages (burglqry => no laptop...). >>> Cheers, >>> Laurent >>> >>> >>> Susan Schreibman a ?crit : >>> >>>> I don't ever remember a SIG for dictionaries. But there is no >>>> reason one >>>> can't be formed! It would take two people to take ownership of it >>>> and >>>> propose it to the Council via me. If you know two or three people >>>> who >>>> want to take ownership, have them get in touch with me. >>>> >>>> susan >>>> >>>> >>>> Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>>>> Is there, or has there ever been, a TEI SIG for >>>>> dictionaries/lexicography? Should there be? >>>>> >>>>> I ask because I know several people for whom the current >>>>> dictionary >>>>> module is inadequate to their needs, and some are using home- >>>>> brewed XML >>>>> as a result (yuk!). >>>>> >>>>> G >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Susan Schreibman, PhD >>>> Director >>>> Digital Humanities Observatory >>>> 28-32 Pembroke Street Upper >>>> Dublin 2 >>>> -- A project of the Royal Irish Academy -- >>>> >>>> Phone: +353 1 234 2440 >>>> Mobile: +353 86 049 1966 >>>> Fax: +353 1 234 2588 >>>> Email:` s.schreibman at ria.ie >>>> >>>> http://dho.ie >>>> http://irith.org >>>> http://macgreevy.org >>>> http://v-machine.org >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> tei-council mailing list >>>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) > > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Aug 28 10:56:42 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <48B660DC.2000500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5C6E7.3020507@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080828071450.E6A2A804B@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <48B660DC.2000500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: And I have just added a GettingStarted directory containing, at the moment, nothing but a ReadMe file. Anyone who wants to set up a local Subversion sandbox containing only this portion of the TEI SourceForge material should do "svn checkout" (or equivalent action in your Subversion client) on https://USER at tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/trunk/Documents/GettingStarted replacing 'USER' with your SourceForge username. Peter, are you comfortable using Subversion commands to create subdirectories and add files? David On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I have given Peter write access to the TEI Subversion, and started to people > Documents; view http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tei/trunk/Documents/ > and you'll see the "how to make a TEI release" and "oddmanual" (the mythical > Customisation Handbook). > > if there's anything else we have which belongs in Documents, just shout. > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Aug 28 10:58:04 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <48B65D05.400@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5C6E7.3020507@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080828071450.E6A2A804B@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <48B65D05.400@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: I'll discuss this with Chris and Daniel Pitti. It would involve the time of the IT people in their departments, so they will need to authorize. David On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Lou Burnard wrote: > > What we should have is an automated way of publishing material from the SF > > repository to the OpenCMS site. That shouldn't be beyond the wit of > > information services, surely. > > > not sure what you have in mind with "information services" there, > but really, its entirely down to what Virginia can do. I think they > need to set up a system which syncs itself daily/hourly with the state > of the repository on Sourceforge, builds HTML and PDF > renderings of the GS doc, and puts them where Apache > will deliver them. I don't think OpenCMS needs to get > involved at all. > > David, this is sort of your pigeon? if you agree, maybe > you can discuss with Chris? > > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Aug 28 12:50:40 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:50:40 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <20080828071450.E6A2A804B@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5C6E7.3020507@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080828071450.E6A2A804B@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1219942240.6043.6.camel@wiglaf> On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 08:14 +0100, Lou Burnard wrote: > In message <48B5C6E7.3020507 at oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz > writes: > > Dan O'Donnell wrote: > > > I've also set up a folder on the TEI main website for council storage, > > > though svn might be better. Should we maybe consider leaving all > > > material there instead of at TEI-C. > > > > except that you dont get any rendering of docs. so SF is best for > > material which should really be regarded as source, not > > directly-readable. And I'd guess this GS doc falls into that category. > > I dont disagree with Sebastian about the relative advantages of the sf > repository and the open cms one as a location for authoring material. However > (a) it's not true that you get NO rendering on the Open CMS site (b) you > don't on the other hand get any rendering at all if you just look at the SVN > repository. > > What we should have is an automated way of publishing material from the SF > repository to the OpenCMS site. That shouldn't be beyond the wit of > information services, surely. > > And while I also think OpenCMS is a pain, it is the system we have and it > would be foolish not to work with it just because it sucks. The altermnative > is that we proliferate official repositories and confuse everyone. Yes. Let's see what we can do about it. What we need I think is a council documents editor: i.e. somebody who decides what we want on tei-c and is responsible for working with Chris R who is the main site editor to make sure it is there and working properly. Initially we could do this by hand; the main problem with OpenCMS in my view is that the usual open-source skill sets don't seem to transfer over to it that well. So every scripting need seems to require an expert or research. > > > > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) Director, Digital Medievalist Project (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) Associate Professor of English Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Aug 28 13:39:26 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: <1219942240.6043.6.camel@wiglaf> References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5C6E7.3020507@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080828071450.E6A2A804B@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <1219942240.6043.6.camel@wiglaf> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, Dan O'Donnell wrote: > Yes. Let's see what we can do about it. What we need I think is a > council documents editor: i.e. somebody who decides what we want on > tei-c and is responsible for working with Chris R who is the main site > editor to make sure it is there and working properly. In any case right now is a bad time for Chris to try to implement anything new, as she is busy getting the online voting system to work. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Aug 28 13:44:13 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 11:44:13 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5C6E7.3020507@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080828071450.E6A2A804B@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <1219942240.6043.6.camel@wiglaf> Message-ID: <1219945453.6043.40.camel@wiglaf> Absolutely. Though we may be able to implement smaller changes using some of the people who have write permission. But nothing is ready yet so it is a moot point. On Thu, 2008-08-28 at 13:39 -0400, David Sewell wrote: > On Thu, 28 Aug 2008, Dan O'Donnell wrote: > > Yes. Let's see what we can do about it. What we need I think is a > > council documents editor: i.e. somebody who decides what we want on > > tei-c and is responsible for working with Chris R who is the main site > > editor to make sure it is there and working properly. > > In any case right now is a bad time for Chris to try to implement > anything new, as she is busy getting the online voting system to work. > > David > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell Chair, Text Encoding Initiative (http://www.tei-c.org/) Director, Digital Medievalist Project (http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/) Associate Professor of English Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 vox: +1 (403) 329-2377 fax: +1 (403) 382-7191 email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From pboot at xs4all.nl Thu Aug 28 16:07:57 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:07:57 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Getting started In-Reply-To: References: <48AC7AAA.6090808@xs4all.nl> <1219790894.8261.31.camel@wiglaf> <6B8F7B1F-9B93-488B-970E-9751F1299CDD@loria.fr> <1219862804.11408.26.camel@wiglaf> <48B5A410.6000201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1219864306.11408.35.camel@wiglaf> <48B5C6E7.3020507@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20080828071450.E6A2A804B@webmail221.herald.ox.ac.uk> <48B660DC.2000500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48B7059D.4080001@xs4all.nl> David Sewell schreef: > Peter, are you comfortable using Subversion commands to create > subdirectories and add files? I'm comfortable with my oXygen Subversion client. Peter From pboot at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 29 07:02:46 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:02:46 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Comments on getting started Message-ID: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> Hello all, Elena and David, thank you for your comments. Elena Pierazzo wrote: > 1. I think that a short chapter on text analysis would be of great > help. From my teaching experience I have noticed that for someone > that it is really complicated for someone that is used to work on > Word to understand the rationale of semantic markup and use elements > like
and ; tables are really complicated. Once these > concepts are passed, it's then relatively easier understand other > kind of inline markup. This would seem quite useful to discuss. Would you see this as something to be discussed before we get to the actual editing or only afterwards? David (see below) suggests this is an advanced subject, like the schemas, but I can also see a case for including it as a section in chapter 4, 'Overall structure of a TEI text'. > 2. The fact that we are including screenshots and editor specific > instruction imply that the document will need a regular (and > frequent) maintenance as editors tend to change very quickly. Yes, alas. > Versions of editors, processors and browsers are an issue to be > considered carefully. For instance: for Oxygen are we offering > support for the full program of just for the Author version of it? > etc. As to oXygen: you can't edit xslt or schema's in oXygen Author, so we'd have to use the full product. But I wouldn't use the word 'support'. > I volunteer for helping with the writing, if Peter, Arianna and the > others (I forgot who else is in the group) need it. Thank you. (As yet there is no group). David Sewell wrote: > It seems to me that there is a natural division between the > basic/intermediate sections that virtually every user will need to > cover (outline chapters 1-8) and advanced topics (9-Schemas; and > Elena's suggested chapter on textual analysis, if we agree to add > it). See above. > Another way to look at it is that chapters 1-6 are applicable to > anyone working with TEI files, including assistants who are simply > adding or correcting content following project guidelines; chapters 7 > and beyond are more applicable to people in charge of projects > (including independent work) or designing TEI-based publications. > (This could be explained to readers in the introductory material.) OK. > I'll volunteer to help with authoring and editing. Thanks. > Would it make sense to put the outline document on the TEI Wiki, to > make it easier for people to edit it and keep up to date with > changes? (We could use a "private" Wiki page, not linked from > elsewhere, so that the document and our comments wouldn't be open to > the public while work is in progress.) Good idea > Audience > As someone (Dan I believe) said during our last telco, we > should also include in our target audience people who are not > themselves specialist scholars but who are, or will be, working as > encoders with a project. These may be undergraduates, editorial > assistants, etc. We can assume that they are equally motivated with > the academic readers, but they may not be familiar with the technical > vocabulary of textual studies, bibliography, etc. OK > Software > It will take some discussion and maybe experimentation to > decide just how to present the examples connected with different > software platforms. One option would be to illustrate each major task > with screen shots and instructions for each of the platforms we > decide to include. Or we could choose a single platform, say oXygen, > for the main presentation, and link to illustrations of how tasks are > handled in the other platforms via appendices. (Or we could be very > clever and compose alternate texts for the software sections that > would be toggled via reader choice in the online version?) My preference would be for your second option: to write the document based on oXygen, and have appendices, maybe even wiki pages, about how to do this in other programs. (I would like to avoid people having to print a document that is very repetitive). What do others feel? Extending this to other platforms could even become a community effort. > Contents > "We explain RELAX using the XML syntax, and mention the existence of > the compact syntax." This should be discussed further. In my > experience the syntax of DTDs or Relax NG compact is easier to grasp, > and better to use for the very first example of how schema rules > constrain a document. I always felt that ... is much more intuitive than ( ... )+ Other opinions? > In chapter 3, we could offer an example of an extremely simple > non-TEI XML language with maybe three elements and one attribute, and > show the Relax NG compact schema used to validate it. Later, in > chapter 9, we could explain the relation between the XML and compact > forms of Relax NG and use the XML form in relation to the ODD > discussion. > > This is more or less the way that things work elswhere in the TEI > world: the "Gentle Introduction to XML" uses compact syntax, and the > Element reference in the Guidelines defaults to compact; but in the > Guidelines chapters on ODD, the RELAX NG XML syntax is necessarily > used. I would like to place all schema related discussions after ch. 8, 'Getting this to work on sample of own text'. People should get to the stage where they can actually use TEI as soon as possible. Peter From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Fri Aug 29 07:15:10 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 12:15:10 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Comments on getting started In-Reply-To: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> References: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48B7DA3E.1070900@kcl.ac.uk> Hi, Peter Boot wrote: >> Contents >> "We explain RELAX using the XML syntax, and mention the existence of >> the compact syntax." This should be discussed further. In my >> experience the syntax of DTDs or Relax NG compact is easier to grasp, >> and better to use for the very first example of how schema rules >> constrain a document. > > I always felt that > ... > is much more intuitive than > ( ... )+ > > Other opinions? I strongly agree with you Peter and I also believe that for someone that is starting to get a deeper grasp of XML, the RNG XML syntax should become easier to understand or at least fit into the overall paradigm of the GS training, while the introduction of a new syntax could be perceived as yet another thing to learn and therefore a further obstacle. Arianna ______________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Aug 29 07:22:13 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 13:22:13 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Comments on getting started In-Reply-To: <48B7DA3E.1070900@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> <48B7DA3E.1070900@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <78475D48-F716-47E9-9376-D1647E2A1F54@loria.fr> I am exactly on the same line (and indeed, one need to know the XML syntaxt to start toying with ODD documents...). Laurent Le 29 ao?t 08 ? 13:15, Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > Hi, > > Peter Boot wrote: >>> Contents >>> "We explain RELAX using the XML syntax, and mention the existence of >>> the compact syntax." This should be discussed further. In my >>> experience the syntax of DTDs or Relax NG compact is easier to >>> grasp, >>> and better to use for the very first example of how schema rules >>> constrain a document. >> >> I always felt that >> ... >> is much more intuitive than >> ( ... )+ >> >> Other opinions? > > I strongly agree with you Peter and I also believe that for someone > that > is starting to get a deeper grasp of XML, the RNG XML syntax should > become easier to understand or at least fit into the overall > paradigm of > the GS training, while the introduction of a new syntax could be > perceived as yet another thing to learn and therefore a further > obstacle. > > Arianna > > ______________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Aug 29 09:39:10 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 14:39:10 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Comments on getting started In-Reply-To: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> References: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48B7FBFE.9040903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Peter Boot wrote: > > My preference would be for your second option: to write the document > based on oXygen, and have appendices, maybe even wiki pages, about how > to do this in other programs. (I would like to avoid people having to > print a document that is very repetitive). > > What do others feel? Extending this to other platforms could even become > a community effort. > I agree with you. keeping documentation of several systems in sync is horrible. Also, if you show one system, you can clearly say it is illustrative. If you show three systems, then system #4 will complain they are not represented. > > I always felt that > ... > is much more intuitive than > ( ... )+ > > Other opinions? > I am torn. Yes, its more intuitive, but its horribly verbose. But what sways me is that, as Laurent says, ODD is written using XML syntax, so we should yse that -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Aug 29 11:09:22 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:09:22 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Comments on getting started In-Reply-To: <48B7FBFE.9040903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> <48B7FBFE.9040903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48B81122.6010104@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >> > I am torn. Yes, its more intuitive, but its horribly verbose. > But what sways me is that, as Laurent says, ODD is written > using XML syntax, so we should yse that I always find the XML Syntax clearer, but not easier, to read. However, why should we choose one or the other? Can our documents not have the same toggling that we have in the reference pages to toggle between the two forms? It's a tiny bit of javascript... am I missing some reason we shouldn't use that consistently *whenever* we show Relax NG schema code? -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Aug 29 11:22:13 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:22:13 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Comments on getting started In-Reply-To: <48B81122.6010104@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> <48B7FBFE.9040903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48B81122.6010104@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48B81425.5030608@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > > However, why should we choose one or the other? Can our documents not > have the same toggling that we have in the reference pages to toggle > between the two forms? It's a tiny bit of javascript... am I missing > some reason we shouldn't use that consistently *whenever* we show > Relax NG schema code? that would mean post-processing (or pre-processing) the XML or HTML to derive the compact from XML form. Doable. But we'd have to make sure we author in XML form, regardless. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Aug 29 11:22:51 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:22:51 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Comments on getting started In-Reply-To: <48B81122.6010104@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> <48B7FBFE.9040903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48B81122.6010104@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48B8144B.4020003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> PS and authoring in XML form has the HUGE advantage that the schema fragments can be validated. believe me, thats a Good Thing! -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Sat Aug 30 15:42:39 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 20:42:39 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Requests 1925125 and 1933198 In-Reply-To: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48B9A2AF.4050005@kcl.ac.uk> Thanks for this useful summary, James. I have two minor questions for Council: (1) Is there some way to embed one attribute class within another? I am thinking of the (provisionally named) att.ranging class (@min, @max, @atLeast, @atMost) to which *all* elements that are members of att.dimensions should be added, but which should also be able to apply to elements that do not need @quantity, @unit, @precision (such as the new element). To put the question another way, do we just have to remember to make all members of att.dimensions also members of att.ranging, or can att.dimensions itself be made a member of att.ranging? (2) I can come up with some examples using and/or to qualify dates of incriptions. Does anyone have any other examples to offer? Does this proposal need more explanation? Cheers, Gabby James Cummings a ?crit : > While discussing feature request tickets number 1721365, and especially > 1925125 and 1933198, Gabby (with stupid questions from me) fleshed out > some proposals on some new attribute classes and a new element. Since > they are all related I cut-and-paste with minor edits from the feature > requests so that Council can decide these. > > The proposals are: > > Request 1925125 > (1) we need to define the four new attributes, (@min, @max, at atLeast, > @atMost) in a new attribute class, as previously discussed, perhaps > "att.ranging" or similar. (The element mentioned below will > then be a member of att.ranging but not att.dimensions.) > > (2) the existing @precision attribute should be defined within > att.dimensions __but **not** att.editLike or att.ranging__. It is really > a bug that many of the members of att.editLike currently have @precision. > > > Request 1933198 > (1) We should create a new element, basically in parallel > with but recording precision. > > (2) This element is a member of "att.ranging" (newly defined class, see > #1925125; contains @min, @max, @atLeast, @atMost) > > (3) This element is also a member of a newly defined class > (?"att.qualifier") containing @degree, @locus, @target (to which > will now also belong) > > (4) define one new attribute, @stdDeviation, for recording the standard > deviation of a number, range, or approximation. (data.numeric is > probably appropriate for this attribute, but prose at least should > indicate that value should be positive.) > > If council could have a quick look at these tickets and comment here or > on SF then these could maybe be upgraded to GREEN. > > Gabby: Did I forget to mention anything? Would you like to explain more? > > -James > -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Aug 31 06:34:06 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 11:34:06 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Requests 1925125 and 1933198 In-Reply-To: <48B9A2AF.4050005@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48B9A2AF.4050005@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48BA739E.5020907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Gabriel Bodard wrote: > (1) Is there some way to embed one attribute class within another? Yes, atribute classes can be members of other attribute classes> > (2) I can come up with some examples using and/or > to qualify dates of incriptions. Does anyone have any other > examples to offer? Does this proposal need more explanation? examples would be good. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Sun Aug 31 07:35:48 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (laurent.romary at loria.fr) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 13:35:48 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Comments on getting started In-Reply-To: <48B8144B.4020003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> <48B7FBFE.9040903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48B81122.6010104@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48B8144B.4020003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20080831133548.be2grytcw0s88co8@webmail.loria.fr> And a good exercise for all of us, I would say. Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit?: > PS and authoring in XML form has the HUGE advantage that the schema > fragments > can be validated. believe me, thats a Good Thing! > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Sep 1 10:23:19 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 10:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Comments on getting started In-Reply-To: <48B8144B.4020003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> <48B7FBFE.9040903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48B81122.6010104@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48B8144B.4020003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Okay, I withdraw my objection to using XML syntax as the base. Actually, it is probably the case that RELAX NG compact syntax seems "inuitive" mainly to people who have worked with DTDs and other notational forms using similar conventions (regular expressions, for example), but to a complete beginner I suppose it would look just as incomprehensible as an XML-syntax schema. On Fri, 29 Aug 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > PS and authoring in XML form has the HUGE advantage that the schema > fragments > can be validated. believe me, thats a Good Thing! > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Sep 1 10:26:52 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 10:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Comments on getting started In-Reply-To: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> References: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Aug 2008, Peter Boot wrote: > My preference would be [...] to write the document > based on oXygen, and have appendices, maybe even wiki pages, about how > to do this in other programs. (I would like to avoid people having to > print a document that is very repetitive). > > What do others feel? Extending this to other platforms could even become > a community effort. Yes, I agree with using oXygen as the "canonical" base description, and link to other how-to illustrations. Of course we will have to come up with a mechanism for that. It might be easier for other contributors to use a Wiki authoring environment than to do this in the form of TEI-XML stored in SourceForge. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Sep 1 10:51:07 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 10:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Minutes posted; query about TOC Message-ID: I have posted and linked the last teleconference minutes: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm39.xml What is the magic trick to get the "Contents" list auto-generated between the and of one of these files? It worked for the last two sets of minutes that I posted, and I don't see any relevant structural difference between those files and tcm39.xml. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Sep 1 10:52:14 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 16:52:14 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Comments on getting started In-Reply-To: References: <48B7D756.7090508@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <521BA999-2742-4CE0-BD20-21064FBD0B1E@loria.fr> Like said in another message. I also this as an exercise for all council number (even handicapped ones like myself) to share a basic level of expertise (SF+Oxygen+...) Laurent Le 1 sept. 08 ? 16:26, David Sewell a ?crit : > On Fri, 29 Aug 2008, Peter Boot wrote: > >> My preference would be [...] to write the document >> based on oXygen, and have appendices, maybe even wiki pages, about >> how >> to do this in other programs. (I would like to avoid people having to >> print a document that is very repetitive). >> >> What do others feel? Extending this to other platforms could even >> become >> a community effort. > > Yes, I agree with using oXygen as the "canonical" base description, > and > link to other how-to illustrations. Of course we will have to come up > with a mechanism for that. It might be easier for other contributors > to > use a Wiki authoring environment than to do this in the form of TEI- > XML > stored in SourceForge. > > David > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From pboot at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 2 04:09:00 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 10:09:00 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Requests 1925125 and 1933198 In-Reply-To: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48BCF49C.4070508@xs4all.nl> James Cummings schreef: > Request 1925125 > (1) we need to define the four new attributes, (@min, @max, at atLeast, > @atMost) in a new attribute class, as previously discussed, perhaps > "att.ranging" or similar. (The element mentioned below will > then be a member of att.ranging but not att.dimensions.) I may be missing something very elementary, but what is the intended difference between @min and @atLeast? I'd think if x is the minimum value for some quantity, that quantity is at least x? > (2) the existing @precision attribute should be defined within > att.dimensions __but **not** att.editLike or att.ranging__. It is really > a bug that many of the members of att.editLike currently have @precision. att.ranging should include the members of att.dimensions, I understand from Gabriel's later post. But currently att.dimensions only includes these members: depth dimensions height space width. At the last telcon we agreed that elements that now have only @extent should also get @quantity and @unit, presumably by being included in att.dimensions. Does your proposal cover this? Which elements exactly? gap? att.damaged? Peter From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Sep 2 09:19:22 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 14:19:22 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Requests 1925125 and 1933198 In-Reply-To: <48BCF49C.4070508@xs4all.nl> References: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BCF49C.4070508@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48BD3D5A.1030107@kcl.ac.uk> Thanks for this, Peter; excellent questions. Peter Boot a ?crit : > I may be missing something very elementary, but what is the intended > difference between @min and @atLeast? I'd think if x is the minimum > value for some quantity, that quantity is at least x? The difference between the pairs of attributes @min/@max and @atLeast/@atMost is similar to that between from/to and notBefore/notAfter in dating. Namely that @min/@max are the start and end points of a range (e.g. from the third kilometer to the seventh kilometer of this particular stretch of road), while @atLeast/@atMost are the smallest and largest possible values of an uncertain figure (probably between 80 and 85 pounds). > att.ranging should include the members of att.dimensions, I understand The other way around, in fact: the members of att.dimensions should also all be members of att.ranging, but not necessarily vice versa. > from Gabriel's later post. But currently att.dimensions only includes > these members: depth dimensions height space width. At the last telcon > we agreed that elements that now have only @extent should also get > @quantity and @unit, presumably by being included in att.dimensions. > Does your proposal cover this? Which elements exactly? gap? att.damaged? The elements that are not already members of att.dimensions and that should inherit @quantity, @unit, @precision (and att.ranging) are mainly and . (That's all that occurs to me off-hand, though there may be others. Which other elements currently take @extent?) Thanks! G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Sep 2 11:16:34 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:16:34 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Requests 1925125 and 1933198 In-Reply-To: <48BD3D5A.1030107@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BCF49C.4070508@xs4all.nl> <48BD3D5A.1030107@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48BD58D2.9030909@kcl.ac.uk> Gabriel Bodard wrote: > Which other elements currently take @extent? See http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/REF-ATTS.html and if I understand what you are asking. Arianna > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) > > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From pboot at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 2 11:30:04 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 17:30:04 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases Message-ID: <48BD5BFC.7050309@xs4all.nl> Hello all, I had a small fight today that was caused, among other things, by differences between the versions of our schema files on the web and as delivered with oXygen (or rather of course my naively assuming that they would be the same). Which made me wonder whether we shouldn't, in each of our output formats, clearly identify to which release of the TEI they belong? Each page in the Guidelines clearly says its version 1.1.0. But - in the generated schema's there is only a date, not a version number, and - Roma doesn't say anything about the version of the sources that it is using. On SourceForge too, we might be a little more explicit about the TEI versions. (This is not meant to blame anybody, but just to suggest possible improvements, which I'd be willing to help put into practice.) - There has been no announcement of versions 1.0.1 and 1.1.0 on SourceForge (at least, not in the news items: http://sourceforge.net/news/?group_id=106328). - in the download section, the 1.1 release notes contain, from the viewpoint of an interested outsider, just abracadabra (http://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?group_id=106328&release_id=612190). Shouldn't there be a summary of the more important changes and bugfixes there? Even if only by referring to a message on TEI-L? - also in the download section, there is a package tei release 1.0.1, while there is also a release 1.0.1 in the P5 package. It is not clear why there are two versions of 1.0.1. But worse, it may confuse people to whom the package 'tei' sounds more familiar than 'P5' into downloading an old version. Peter From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Sep 2 11:40:49 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:40:49 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases In-Reply-To: <48BD5BFC.7050309@xs4all.nl> References: <48BD5BFC.7050309@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48BD5E81.4070801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> to amswer just one of these for now > - also in the download section, there is a package tei release 1.0.1, > while there is also a release 1.0.1 in the P5 package. It is not clear > why there are two versions of 1.0.1. But worse, it may confuse people to > whom the package 'tei' sounds more familiar than 'P5' into downloading > an old version. "tei" is everything in one bundle, whereas P5 contains the separate components. This was as requested by Christian some time ago. Maybe this was a bad idea and I should drop the "tei" one. Especially since I failed to keep it up to date last time! -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Sep 2 11:41:27 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:41:27 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Requests 1925125 and 1933198 In-Reply-To: <48BD58D2.9030909@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BCF49C.4070508@xs4all.nl> <48BD3D5A.1030107@kcl.ac.uk> <48BD58D2.9030909@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48BD5EA7.6070806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Arianna Ciula wrote: > > Gabriel Bodard wrote: > >> Which other elements currently take @extent? > > See http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/REF-ATTS.html > and if I understand what you are asking. Isn't this just the kind of question that Appendix D was created to answer? http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/REF-ATTS.html att.damaged and as Arianna says, orth and pron. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no Tue Sep 2 09:36:47 2008 From: tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no (Tone Merete Bruvik) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 15:36:47 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Request 2002418: New element = ? Message-ID: Ellen Nessheim Wiger at the Henrik Ibsen?s Writings project has added a document to the SourceForge with some samples where they use the suggested element , which is added to the DTD they are using. You find this under the feature request 2002418 (http:// sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php? func=detail&aid=2002418&group_id=106328&atid=644065). Please have a look at it. Do you think it would be useful to add a new element to encode this phenomenon in manuscripts? Or should existing elements be used? Tone Merete Bruvik tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no ---- The Research Group for Text Technology - Aksis (The Department of Culture, Language and Information Technology), Unifob AS All?gaten 27 - N-5020 Bergen, Norway From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Sep 2 16:53:23 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:53:23 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: SourceForge.net Subversion service downtime scheduled 2008-09-04] Message-ID: <48BDA7C3.5010307@oucs.ox.ac.uk> caveat -------- Original Message -------- Subject: SourceForge.net Subversion service downtime scheduled 2008-09-04 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 20:52:29 UT From: SourceForge.net Team To: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk On 2008-09-04 at 04:00 UTC, Subversion service write operations will be offline for no more than 24 hours. During this time, Subversion write operations (such as commit) will fail with an error. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Sep 3 00:07:38 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 22:07:38 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Minutes posted; query about TOC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1220414858.15019.58.camel@caedmon> Did you get an answer in the end? I don't remember myself. In my case it just seemed to work. Maybe a libation? -dan On Mon, 2008-09-01 at 10:51 -0400, David Sewell wrote: > I have posted and linked the last teleconference minutes: > > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm39.xml > > What is the magic trick to get the "Contents" list auto-generated > between the and of one of these files? It worked for the > last two sets of minutes that I posted, and I don't see any relevant > structural difference between those files and tcm39.xml. > > David > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Sep 3 02:40:25 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 08:40:25 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases In-Reply-To: <48BD5E81.4070801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48BD5BFC.7050309@xs4all.nl> <48BD5E81.4070801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4DFDFCD7-70BA-4498-BC37-14E8D6979FDE@loria.fr> Sebastian: can you elaborate a little on the difference between tei and P5, so that we can try to make an informed decision there? Laurent Le 2 sept. 08 ? 17:40, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > to amswer just one of these for now >> - also in the download section, there is a package tei release 1.0.1, >> while there is also a release 1.0.1 in the P5 package. It is not >> clear >> why there are two versions of 1.0.1. But worse, it may confuse >> people to >> whom the package 'tei' sounds more familiar than 'P5' into >> downloading >> an old version. > > "tei" is everything in one bundle, whereas P5 contains the separate > components. This was as requested by Christian some time ago. > > Maybe this was a bad idea and I should drop the "tei" one. Especially > since I failed to keep it up to date last time! > > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 03:30:21 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 08:30:21 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases In-Reply-To: <4DFDFCD7-70BA-4498-BC37-14E8D6979FDE@loria.fr> References: <48BD5BFC.7050309@xs4all.nl> <48BD5E81.4070801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4DFDFCD7-70BA-4498-BC37-14E8D6979FDE@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48BE3D0D.1070901@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Sebastian: can you elaborate a little on the difference between tei > and P5, so that we can try to make an informed decision there? > a normal release consists of six separate zip files (source, schema, doc, exemplars, test, database) so that you can choose what you want. the "tei" release is all the same stuff, but in a single tar.gz archive ready to unpack in a runtime system -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Sep 3 03:40:48 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 09:40:48 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases In-Reply-To: <48BE3D0D.1070901@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48BD5BFC.7050309@xs4all.nl> <48BD5E81.4070801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4DFDFCD7-70BA-4498-BC37-14E8D6979FDE@loria.fr> <48BE3D0D.1070901@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: OK. A few additional questions: - how many people are using the tei release as opposed to the P5 components? - can the creation of the tei release be automated (so that there would be no delay/difference between the two)? - if no the preceding question, how much manual work is it for you? Le 3 sept. 08 ? 09:30, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Laurent Romary wrote: >> Sebastian: can you elaborate a little on the difference between >> tei and P5, so that we can try to make an informed decision there? >> > a normal release consists of six separate zip files > (source, schema, doc, exemplars, test, database) > so that you can choose what you want. the "tei" > release is all the same stuff, but in a single tar.gz archive > ready to unpack in a runtime system > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University > Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Sep 3 04:21:14 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 10:21:14 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Preparing next TelCo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Council, As the next Telco should come soon, I would like to ask you all to: - review the minutes for agreement - look at action items in which you are involved - check the feasibility for early october - start spamming me with agenda item proposals Have a good day! Laurent Le 1 sept. 08 ? 16:51, David Sewell a ?crit : > I have posted and linked the last teleconference minutes: > > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Meetings/tcm39.xml > > What is the magic trick to get the "Contents" list auto-generated > between the and of one of these files? It worked for > the > last two sets of minutes that I posted, and I don't see any relevant > structural difference between those files and tcm39.xml. > > David > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 04:35:38 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 09:35:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases In-Reply-To: References: <48BD5BFC.7050309@xs4all.nl> <48BD5E81.4070801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4DFDFCD7-70BA-4498-BC37-14E8D6979FDE@loria.fr> <48BE3D0D.1070901@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48BE4C5A.4080802@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > OK. A few additional questions: > - how many people are using the tei release as opposed to the P5 > components? we don't know. see https://sourceforge.net/project/stats/?group_id=106328&ugn=tei which does not help > - can the creation of the tei release be automated (so that there > would be no delay/difference between the two)? > - if no the preceding question, how much manual work is it for you? it's all the same degree of manualness, really. what is slow is preparing the release using the Sourceforge release web site, and (basically) me forgetting last time -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Sep 3 04:42:33 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 10:42:33 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases In-Reply-To: <48BE4C5A.4080802@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48BD5BFC.7050309@xs4all.nl> <48BD5E81.4070801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4DFDFCD7-70BA-4498-BC37-14E8D6979FDE@loria.fr> <48BE3D0D.1070901@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BE4C5A.4080802@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <271DCDDA-66BD-4FA1-A196-71D9DB957C66@loria.fr> I would personally favour to keep the full tei release... What would the other think? Le 3 sept. 08 ? 10:35, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Laurent Romary wrote: >> OK. A few additional questions: >> - how many people are using the tei release as opposed to the P5 >> components? > we don't know. see > https://sourceforge.net/project/stats/?group_id=106328&ugn=tei > which does not help >> - can the creation of the tei release be automated (so that there >> would be no delay/difference between the two)? >> - if no the preceding question, how much manual work is it for you? > it's all the same degree of manualness, really. what is slow is > preparing the release > using the Sourceforge release web site, and (basically) me > forgetting last time > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University > Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 05:01:14 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:01:14 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases In-Reply-To: References: <48BD5BFC.7050309@xs4all.nl> <48BD5E81.4070801@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4DFDFCD7-70BA-4498-BC37-14E8D6979FDE@loria.fr> <48BE3D0D.1070901@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48BE525A.8030308@oucs.ox.ac.uk> better late than never, I have now put up the "tei" release 1.1.0 but I agree with Peter, it must look odd to a new user. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 3 05:04:47 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:04:47 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases Message-ID: <17227.194.171.119.28.1220432687.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > I would personally favour to keep the full tei release... What would > the other think? I have no real preference, but if we keep both, they should have names that people will understand, something like tei-full and tei-components From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 05:33:51 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:33:51 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases In-Reply-To: <17227.194.171.119.28.1220432687.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <17227.194.171.119.28.1220432687.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48BE59FF.5070709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Peter Boot wrote: >> I would personally favour to keep the full tei release... What would >> the other think? >> > > I have no real preference, but if we keep both, they should have names > that people will understand, something like tei-full and tei-components > done. see what you think now. its very easy to change to whatever people prefer -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 3 05:54:10 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:54:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases Message-ID: <12540.194.171.119.28.1220435650.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > Peter Boot wrote: >>> I would personally favour to keep the full tei release... What would >>> the other think? >> >> I have no real preference, but if we keep both, they should have names >> that people will understand, something like tei-full and tei-components >> > done. see what you think now. its very easy to change to whatever > people prefer Much better, but I think tei-P5 (rather than just P5) would be even better. Would it be similarly easy to add a few lines of explanation about the purpose of these packages to the release notes? From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Sep 3 06:01:05 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 12:01:05 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases In-Reply-To: <12540.194.171.119.28.1220435650.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <12540.194.171.119.28.1220435650.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <457C4601-4AC9-4310-AB81-B3DA8A952944@loria.fr> I would support both proposals.... Le 3 sept. 08 ? 11:54, Peter Boot a ?crit : >> Peter Boot wrote: >>>> I would personally favour to keep the full tei release... What >>>> would >>>> the other think? >>> >>> I have no real preference, but if we keep both, they should have >>> names >>> that people will understand, something like tei-full and tei- >>> components >>> >> done. see what you think now. its very easy to change to whatever >> people prefer > > Much better, but I think tei-P5 (rather than just P5) would be even > better. > > Would it be similarly easy to add a few lines of explanation about the > purpose of these packages to the release notes? > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 06:49:08 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 11:49:08 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases In-Reply-To: <48BD5BFC.7050309@xs4all.nl> References: <48BD5BFC.7050309@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48BE6BA4.5090201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Peter Boot wrote: > Which made me wonder whether we shouldn't, in each of our output > formats, clearly identify to which release of the TEI they belong? Each > page in the Guidelines clearly says its version 1.1.0. But > - in the generated schema's there is only a date, not a version number, and > - Roma doesn't say anything about the version of the sources that it is > using. > I have changed the stylesheets for the next release, so that they will show the from the TEI P5 source in generated schemas. That should help, I think. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 07:32:12 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 12:32:12 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases In-Reply-To: <12540.194.171.119.28.1220435650.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <12540.194.171.119.28.1220435650.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48BE75BC.7080302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Peter Boot wrote: > Would it be similarly easy to add a few lines of explanation about the > purpose of these packages to the release notes? > yes, can do -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 07:39:14 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 12:39:14 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Identification of TEI releases In-Reply-To: <48BE75BC.7080302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <12540.194.171.119.28.1220435650.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <48BE75BC.7080302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48BE7762.8020105@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Peter Boot wrote: >> Would it be similarly easy to add a few lines of explanation about the >> purpose of these packages to the release notes? >> now in place -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 09:00:14 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:00:14 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Minutes posted; query about TOC In-Reply-To: <1220414858.15019.58.camel@caedmon> References: <1220414858.15019.58.camel@caedmon> Message-ID: <48BE8A5E.4020203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> sorry, I can't see the difference either. You'll have to ask Chris R, I guess -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 09:23:07 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:23:07 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Requests 1925125 and 1933198 In-Reply-To: <48BD58D2.9030909@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BCF49C.4070508@xs4all.nl> <48BD3D5A.1030107@kcl.ac.uk> <48BD58D2.9030909@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48BE8FBB.90204@kcl.ac.uk> Thanks for this. I'd forgotten about the attribute index and was just lazily asking out loud. It seems to be that orth and pron are red herrings, here-- at extent means something different in these cases and so should *not* be replaced with @quantity and @unit. The editLike elements that I can think of that ought to have @quantity, @unit, and @precision are , and , but that's about it. G Arianna Ciula a ?crit : > > Gabriel Bodard wrote: > >> Which other elements currently take @extent? > > See http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/REF-ATTS.html > and if I understand what you are asking. > > Arianna > >> -- >> Dr Gabriel BODARD >> (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) >> >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL >> Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk >> Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 >> Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 >> >> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ >> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 09:27:17 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:27:17 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] which version to print? Message-ID: <48BE90B5.1020908@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I have to remake the PDF of the Guidelines now. is anyone in favour of making it current, or do you want the version of July 4th? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Sep 3 09:28:28 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 15:28:28 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Requests 1925125 and 1933198 In-Reply-To: <48BE8FBB.90204@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BCF49C.4070508@xs4all.nl> <48BD3D5A.1030107@kcl.ac.uk> <48BD58D2.9030909@kcl.ac.uk> <48BE8FBB.90204@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <477B7C70-DAFE-45D8-ACAF-66CD8916400C@loria.fr> Le 3 sept. 08 ? 15:23, Gabriel Bodard a ?crit : > > It seems to be that orth and pron are red herrings, here-- at extent > means > something different in these cases and so should *not* be replaced > with > @quantity and @unit. The editLike elements that I can think of that > ought to have @quantity, @unit, and @precision are , > and > , but that's about it. > Fully agree - keep @extent for orth and pron. From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Sep 3 09:29:19 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 15:29:19 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] which version to print? In-Reply-To: <48BE90B5.1020908@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48BE90B5.1020908@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <73F57A0E-E1E9-4606-9DDE-7448D4A30095@loria.fr> Is there a risk of a major mistake that would have been introduced in between? Le 3 sept. 08 ? 15:27, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > I have to remake the PDF of the Guidelines now. > > is anyone in favour of making it current, or do you want > the version of July 4th? > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 09:30:15 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:30:15 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] which version to print? In-Reply-To: <73F57A0E-E1E9-4606-9DDE-7448D4A30095@loria.fr> References: <48BE90B5.1020908@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <73F57A0E-E1E9-4606-9DDE-7448D4A30095@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48BE9167.7070907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Is there a risk of a major mistake that would have been introduced in > between? > no, but the risk of a half-finished change may be high. But there also may be a bad bug fixed.... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 09:55:54 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:55:54 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] which version to print? In-Reply-To: <48BE9167.7070907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48BE90B5.1020908@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <73F57A0E-E1E9-4606-9DDE-7448D4A30095@loria.fr> <48BE9167.7070907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48BE976A.6050005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Laurent Romary wrote: >> Is there a risk of a major mistake that would have been introduced in >> between? >> > no, but the risk of a half-finished change may be high. But there > also may be a bad bug fixed.... > I'd say that we should always print the most current version at time of going to press. We never *knowingly* introduce major mistakes, and usually finish changes... but that said since Lou is in the midst of making the changes to those Green items, perhaps it should wait until after that? When does the final pdf-for-print-run need to be produced? -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 10:05:25 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:05:25 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] which version to print? In-Reply-To: <48BE976A.6050005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48BE90B5.1020908@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <73F57A0E-E1E9-4606-9DDE-7448D4A30095@loria.fr> <48BE9167.7070907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BE976A.6050005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48BE99A5.5000307@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote > I'd say that we should always print the most current version at time > of going to press. We never *knowingly* introduce major mistakes, and > usually finish changes... but that said since Lou is in the midst of > making the changes to those Green items, perhaps it should wait until > after that? When does the final pdf-for-print-run need to be produced? any day now, I think, Dan? If we used the current version, I'd have to make a 1.1.1 or 1.2.0 release, of course. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Sep 3 10:49:37 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 08:49:37 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] which version to print? In-Reply-To: <48BE99A5.5000307@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48BE90B5.1020908@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <73F57A0E-E1E9-4606-9DDE-7448D4A30095@loria.fr> <48BE9167.7070907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BE976A.6050005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BE99A5.5000307@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1220453377.18994.4.camel@caedmon> On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 15:05 +0100, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > James Cummings wrote > > I'd say that we should always print the most current version at time > > of going to press. We never *knowingly* introduce major mistakes, and > > usually finish changes... but that said since Lou is in the midst of > > making the changes to those Green items, perhaps it should wait until > > after that? When does the final pdf-for-print-run need to be produced? > > any day now, I think, Dan? > > If we used the current version, I'd have to make a 1.1.1 or 1.2.0 release, > of course. We've already corrected proofs for the print run, so it's too late to change without resetting costs, I suspect (they need to do some work on the PDF in order to get it ready for print, and will not be keen on redoing it). We probably can get a version number on the title page, as some business/financial aspects of the run have held the presses until the end of this week. But basically, if people hadn't gone on holidays in August it would be getting printed right now. > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 11:04:55 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:04:55 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] which version to print? In-Reply-To: <1220453377.18994.4.camel@caedmon> References: <48BE90B5.1020908@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <73F57A0E-E1E9-4606-9DDE-7448D4A30095@loria.fr> <48BE9167.7070907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BE976A.6050005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BE99A5.5000307@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1220453377.18994.4.camel@caedmon> Message-ID: <48BEA797.3070206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Daniel O'Donnell wrote: > > We've already corrected proofs for the print run, so it's too late to > change without resetting costs, I suspect (they need to do some work on > the PDF in order to get it ready for print, and will not be keen on > redoing it). What sort of correction are you talking about? Have they been retro-applied to the ODD source? If not they'll have to be done all over again. From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Sep 3 16:18:28 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 13:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [tei-council] which version to print? In-Reply-To: <48BEA797.3070206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48BE90B5.1020908@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <73F57A0E-E1E9-4606-9DDE-7448D4A30095@loria.fr> <48BE9167.7070907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BE976A.6050005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BE99A5.5000307@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1220453377.18994.4.camel@caedmon> <48BEA797.3070206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: I'm sitting in Phoenix Sky Harbor airport at the moment about to board a flight, but earlier today I was reading the current PDF of chapter 1 (ST) and noticed a grammatical error: "These attribute is said to be defined", looks like around line 386 in source. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager Electronic Imprint, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400318, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://www.ei.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 3 16:45:48 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:45:48 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] which version to print? In-Reply-To: References: <48BE90B5.1020908@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <73F57A0E-E1E9-4606-9DDE-7448D4A30095@loria.fr> <48BE9167.7070907@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BE976A.6050005@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BE99A5.5000307@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <1220453377.18994.4.camel@caedmon> <48BEA797.3070206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48BEF77C.6030901@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > I'm sitting in Phoenix Sky Harbor airport at the moment about to board a > flight, but earlier today I was reading the current PDF of chapter 1 > (ST) and noticed a grammatical error: "These attribute is said to be > defined", looks like around line 386 in source. > > Fixed. Keep 'em comin L From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Sep 4 09:18:22 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:18:22 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] download from ROma Message-ID: <48BFE01E.8010703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> one of my action items says I must fix the problem of delivering multiple files from Roma (ie when making XSD). The only way I can see to do this is to offer a zip file containing what is needed. But this is a pain for people who want a simple RNG file. Would it be acceptable to deliver XSD as a zip archive, and RELAX and DTD as plain files, or is that very confusing? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 4 09:32:57 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 15:32:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [tei-council] download from ROma Message-ID: <7041.194.171.119.28.1220535177.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > Would it be acceptable to deliver XSD as a zip archive, and RELAX > and DTD as plain files, or is that very confusing? Seems OK to me. You could show a message alerting XSD users that what they'll get is a zip file. From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Sep 4 09:37:38 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:37:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] download from ROma In-Reply-To: <7041.194.171.119.28.1220535177.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <7041.194.171.119.28.1220535177.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48BFE4A2.4010704@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Peter Boot wrote: >> Would it be acceptable to deliver XSD as a zip archive, and RELAX >> and DTD as plain files, or is that very confusing? > > Seems OK to me. You could show a message alerting XSD users that what > they'll get is a zip file. Also seems fine to me. Instead of a warning message just have the output in the dropdown list be given as 'W3C Schema (Bundled as .zip)'or similar instead of just 'W3C Schema'. That seems like it would be enough warning to me. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk Thu Sep 4 10:01:54 2008 From: elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk (Elena Pierazzo) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:01:54 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] download from ROma In-Reply-To: <48BFE4A2.4010704@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <7041.194.171.119.28.1220535177.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <48BFE4A2.4010704@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48BFEA52.20307@kcl.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > Peter Boot wrote: >>> Would it be acceptable to deliver XSD as a zip archive, and RELAX >>> and DTD as plain files, or is that very confusing? >> Seems OK to me. You could show a message alerting XSD users that what >> they'll get is a zip file. > > Also seems fine to me. Instead of a warning message just have the > output in the dropdown list be given as 'W3C Schema (Bundled as .zip)'or > similar instead of just 'W3C Schema'. That seems like it would be > enough warning to me. > In total agreement with James Elena -- Dr Elena Pierazzo Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Sep 4 10:09:42 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 16:09:42 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] download from ROma In-Reply-To: <48BFEA52.20307@kcl.ac.uk> References: <7041.194.171.119.28.1220535177.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <48BFE4A2.4010704@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BFEA52.20307@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <7E417537-D740-4084-9DAA-B2DA3E9809C1@loria.fr> As a matter of fact this is exactly what I heard when we had this discussion within the council (if I am not getting senile there). Green light!. Laurent Le 4 sept. 08 ? 16:01, Elena Pierazzo a ?crit : > > James Cummings wrote: >> Peter Boot wrote: >>>> Would it be acceptable to deliver XSD as a zip archive, and RELAX >>>> and DTD as plain files, or is that very confusing? >>> Seems OK to me. You could show a message alerting XSD users that >>> what >>> they'll get is a zip file. >> >> Also seems fine to me. Instead of a warning message just have the >> output in the dropdown list be given as 'W3C Schema (Bundled >> as .zip)'or >> similar instead of just 'W3C Schema'. That seems like it would be >> enough warning to me. >> > In total agreement with James > > Elena > > -- > Dr Elena Pierazzo > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL > > Phone: 0207-848-1949 > Fax: 0207-848-2980 > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Sep 4 11:46:56 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 08:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [tei-council] download from ROma In-Reply-To: <48BFE01E.8010703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48BFE01E.8010703@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Anyone who works by preference with W3C Schema files is quite capable of coping with confusion, I think. :-) On Thu, 4 Sep 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > one of my action items says I must fix the problem of delivering > multiple files > from Roma (ie when making XSD). > > The only way I can see to do this is to offer a zip file containing > what is needed. But this is a pain for people who want a simple RNG > file. > > Would it be acceptable to deliver XSD as a zip archive, and RELAX > and DTD as plain files, or is that very confusing? > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager Electronic Imprint, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400318, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://www.ei.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Sep 5 07:03:52 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 12:03:52 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] handling XSD from Roma Message-ID: <48C11218.4040602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I have ticked http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Roma/ so that it delivers XSD files in a zip archive. would some of you like to test this? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Sep 5 07:09:14 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 13:09:14 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] handling XSD from Roma In-Reply-To: <48C11218.4040602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48C11218.4040602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4D3DD833-BBAB-4DB9-AA11-CC80A5BA4440@loria.fr> Perfect! It does work automatically on my Mac (files unzipped)... Perhaps it should be say somewhere (visible) that xml.xsd is the file to associate to an XML document (for dummies like me). Le 5 sept. 08 ? 13:03, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > I have ticked http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Roma/ > so that it delivers XSD files in a zip archive. > > would some of you like to test this? > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Sep 5 07:18:03 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 12:18:03 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] handling XSD from Roma In-Reply-To: <48C11218.4040602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48C11218.4040602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48C1156B.6010601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I have ticked http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Roma/ > so that it delivers XSD files in a zip archive. > > would some of you like to test this? Seems to work fine for me. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Sep 5 09:27:30 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 14:27:30 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] handling XSD from Roma In-Reply-To: <4D3DD833-BBAB-4DB9-AA11-CC80A5BA4440@loria.fr> References: <48C11218.4040602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4D3DD833-BBAB-4DB9-AA11-CC80A5BA4440@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48C133C2.4020604@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Perfect! It does work automatically on my Mac (files unzipped)... > Perhaps it should be say somewhere (visible) that xml.xsd is the file > to associate to an XML document (for dummies like me). > but thats not true? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Sep 5 10:09:52 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 07:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [tei-council] handling XSD from Roma In-Reply-To: <48C133C2.4020604@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48C11218.4040602@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <4D3DD833-BBAB-4DB9-AA11-CC80A5BA4440@loria.fr> <48C133C2.4020604@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Sep 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Laurent Romary wrote: >> Perfect! It does work automatically on my Mac (files unzipped)... >> Perhaps it should be say somewhere (visible) that xml.xsd is the file >> to associate to an XML document (for dummies like me). >> > but thats not true? No--the main XSD file has the base name of the customization. E.g. the MathML customization generates tei_math.xsd, which imports ns1.xsd, xlink.xsd, and xml.xsd. I would say it's not worth spending a lot of time to inform the user that the main file is "BASENAME.xsd"--if it can be done by adding a line or two to the code producing the "Create a Schema" page, fine, but we can probably rely on users who want something other than the default RELAX NG schemas to figure out which is the main schema file. -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager Electronic Imprint, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400318, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://www.ei.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Sep 5 10:35:08 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 15:35:08 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Preparing next TelCo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C1439C.9000505@oucs.ox.ac.uk> to report on my actions: *Action 2*: /Sebastian Rahtz should tweak the stylesheet as needed. (should be done now, SF ticket resolved) / *Action 5*: /SR will create a formal proposal on Schematron rule placement. (to be done) / *Action 8*: /SR will be asked to report back on the severity of the problems. (Roma now delivers multiple XSD files in one go. I believe that this fixes the problem) I am now almost up to date with SF bug tickets assigned to me. Lou and I are working to resolve some remaining errors reported by the TEI test suite after recent changes, so the source tree is not currently 100% stable / -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Sep 6 14:52:44 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 19:52:44 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: META: rethinking usage= of ] Message-ID: <48C2D17C.4020806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: META: rethinking usage= of Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 13:46:26 -0400 From: Syd Bauman Reply-To: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu To: Sebastian Rahtz [Sebastian: I think this is probably best posted to the Council list, perhaps with your comments added.] The element bears a usage= attribute, whose possible values are: req (required) mwa (mandatory when applicable) rec (recommended) rwa (recommended when applicable) opt (optional) No mention of what this attribute means or of how to use it occurs in either the tagdoc or in the prose of 22.4.4. Does it have any effect on a generated schema? I am not aware of any, but I have not tested extensively. There is no GUI to this attribute in Roma the web application. When an element is permitted because of membership in a model class, I don't think its usage= attribute *can* have an effect on the resulting RELAX NG schema. (Or at least not without heroic effort on the part of the ODD processor to do things we probably wouldn't want it to do.) It is probably possible to have an ODD processor look to see if any members of a class that is referred to in an element's content has usage="req", and in that case write out a Schematron rule. But that may be a lot of work, and would have an impact on the phrasing of conformance, too. (Which changes I strongly recommend, anyway.) I don't think the information imparted by this attribute is used in our current reference documentation, either. For what it's worth, the current values of this attribute are: by element name by order of declaration by value of usage= -- ------- ---- -- ----- -- ----------- -- ----- -- ------ TEI is req teiHeader is req analytic is mwa ab is opt fileDesc is req app is mwa abbr is opt titleStmt is req attDef is mwa activity is opt sponsor is opt attList is mwa actor is opt funder is opt attRef is mwa add is opt principal is mwa castItem is mwa addName is opt editionStmt is opt castList is mwa addSpan is opt edition is opt code is mwa addrLine is opt extent is opt dictScrap is mwa address is opt publicationStmt is re eg is mwa affiliation is opt distributor is opt egXML is mwa alt is opt authority is opt entry is mwa altGrp is opt idno is opt entryFree is mwa analytic is mwa availability is opt epilogue is mwa anchor is rec seriesStmt is opt fDecl is mwa app is mwa notesStmt is opt fsDecl is mwa arc is opt sourceDesc is req gi is mwa argument is opt biblFull is opt group is mwa attDef is mwa encodingDesc is rec iff is mwa attList is mwa projectDesc is opt l is mwa attRef is mwa samplingDecl is opt monogr is mwa author is opt editorialDecl is opt performance is mwa authority is opt correction is opt principal is mwa availability is opt normalization is opt prologue is mwa back is rec quotation is opt role is mwa bibl is opt hyphenation is opt series is mwa biblFull is opt segmentation is opt stage is mwa biblScope is opt stdVals is rec teiCorpus is mwa biblStruct is opt interpretation is opt then is mwa bicond is opt tagsDecl is rec vRange is mwa binary is rwa tagUsage is rec valItem is mwa birth is opt rendition is rec valList is mwa bloc is opt refsDecl is opt variantEncoding is mwa body is req cRefPattern is opt ab is opt broadcast is opt refState is opt abbr is opt byline is opt classDecl is opt activity is opt c is opt taxonomy is opt actor is opt cRefPattern is opt category is opt add is opt caesura is opt catDesc is opt addName is opt camera is opt profileDesc is rec addSpan is opt caption is opt creation is opt addrLine is opt case is rec langUsage is rec address is opt castGroup is opt language is rec affiliation is opt castItem is mwa textClass is opt alt is opt castList is mwa keywords is opt altGrp is opt catDesc is opt classCode is opt arc is opt catRef is opt catRef is opt argument is opt category is opt revisionDesc is rec author is opt cb is opt change is opt authority is opt cell is rwa p is req availability is opt certainty is opt foreign is opt bibl is opt change is opt emph is rwa biblFull is opt channel is opt hi is opt biblScope is opt choice is opt distinct is opt biblStruct is opt cit is opt said is opt bicond is opt cl is opt quote is opt birth is opt classCode is opt q is opt bloc is opt classDecl is opt cit is opt broadcast is opt classSpec is rwa mentioned is rwa byline is opt classes is rwa soCalled is opt c is opt closer is opt desc is req cRefPattern is opt code is mwa gloss is rwa caesura is opt colloc is opt term is rwa camera is opt cond is opt sic is opt caption is opt constitution is opt corr is opt castGroup is opt content is opt choice is opt catDesc is opt corr is opt reg is opt catRef is opt correction is opt orig is opt category is opt country is opt gap is opt cb is opt creation is opt add is opt certainty is opt damage is opt del is opt change is opt damageSpan is opt unclear is opt channel is opt datatype is req name is opt choice is opt date is opt rs is opt cit is opt dateline is opt email is opt cl is opt death is opt address is opt classCode is opt def is opt addrLine is opt classDecl is opt default is rwa street is opt closer is opt defaultVal is req postCode is opt colloc is opt del is opt postBox is opt cond is opt delSpan is opt num is opt constitution is opt derivation is opt measure is opt content is opt desc is req date is opt corr is opt dictScrap is mwa time is opt correction is opt distinct is opt abbr is opt country is opt distributor is opt expan is opt creation is opt district is opt ptr is opt damage is opt div is rwa ref is opt damageSpan is opt div1 is rwa list is rwa date is opt div2 is rwa item is rwa dateline is opt div3 is rwa label is rwa death is opt div4 is rwa head is rwa def is opt div5 is rwa headLabel is rwa del is opt div6 is rwa headItem is rwa delSpan is opt div7 is rwa note is rec derivation is opt divGen is opt index is opt distinct is opt docAuthor is rec milestone is opt distributor is opt docDate is rec pb is opt district is opt docEdition is opt lb is opt divGen is opt docImprint is opt cb is opt docEdition is opt docTitle is rec analytic is mwa docImprint is opt domain is opt monogr is mwa domain is opt eLeaf is opt series is mwa eLeaf is opt eTree is opt author is opt eTree is opt edition is opt editor is opt edition is opt editionStmt is opt respStmt is rwa editionStmt is opt editor is opt resp is opt editor is opt editorialDecl is opt title is opt editorialDecl is opt education is opt meeting is opt education is opt eg is mwa imprint is opt elementSpec is opt egXML is mwa publisher is opt email is opt elementSpec is opt biblScope is opt epigraph is opt email is opt pubPlace is opt equipment is opt emph is rwa bibl is opt equiv is opt encodingDesc is rec biblStruct is opt expan is opt entry is mwa listBibl is opt extent is opt entryFree is mwa l is mwa fDescr is opt epigraph is opt lg is opt factuality is opt epilogue is mwa sp is opt foreign is opt equipment is opt speaker is opt forename is opt equiv is opt stage is mwa forest is opt etym is rec TEI is req forestGrp is opt exemplum is rwa teiCorpus is mwa fsConstraints is opt expan is opt text is req fsDescr is opt extent is opt body is req funder is opt f is rwa group is mwa fw is opt fDecl is mwa floatingText is req gap is opt fDescr is opt div is rwa genName is opt fLib is rwa div1 is rwa geo is opt factuality is opt div2 is rwa geogFeat is opt figDesc is rwa div3 is rwa geogName is opt figure is rwa div4 is rwa gram is opt fileDesc is req div5 is rwa hi is opt floatingText is req div6 is rwa hom is opt foreign is opt div7 is rwa hyph is opt forename is opt divGen is opt hyphenation is opt forest is opt trailer is opt iType is opt forestGrp is opt byline is opt idno is opt form is rec dateline is opt if is opt formula is rwa argument is opt imprimatur is opt front is rec epigraph is opt imprint is opt fs is rwa opener is opt index is opt fsConstraints is opt closer is opt interaction is opt fsDecl is mwa salute is opt interp is opt fsDescr is opt signed is opt interpGrp is opt fsdDecl is rwa postscript is opt interpretation is opt funder is opt titlePage is rec join is opt fvLib is rwa docTitle is rec joinGrp is opt fw is opt titlePart is rec keywords is opt gap is opt docAuthor is rec lacunaEnd is opt gen is rec imprimatur is opt lacunaStart is opt genName is opt docEdition is opt langKnown is opt geo is opt docImprint is opt lb is opt geoDecl is rec docDate is rec lbl is opt geogFeat is opt front is rec lg is opt geogName is opt back is rec link is opt gi is mwa metDecl is rec linkGrp is opt gloss is rwa metSym is opt listBibl is opt gram is opt caesura is opt listNym is opt gramGrp is rec rhyme is opt listPerson is opt graph is rwa set is opt listPlace is opt group is mwa prologue is mwa locale is opt handNotes is rec epilogue is mwa m is opt handShift is rec performance is mwa macroSpec is opt head is rwa castList is mwa measure is opt headItem is rwa castGroup is opt meeting is opt headLabel is rwa castItem is mwa metSym is opt hi is opt role is mwa milestone is opt hom is opt roleDesc is opt move is opt hyph is opt actor is opt name is opt hyphenation is opt move is opt nameLink is opt iNode is rwa view is opt nationality is opt iType is opt camera is opt normalization is opt idno is opt sound is opt notesStmt is opt if is opt caption is opt num is opt iff is mwa tech is opt nym is opt imprimatur is opt scriptStmt is rwa oRef is opt imprint is opt recordingStmt is rwa oVar is opt incident is rec recording is opt occupation is opt index is opt equipment is opt offset is opt interaction is opt broadcast is opt opener is opt interp is opt u is req org is opt interpGrp is opt vocal is rec orgName is opt interpretation is opt kinesic is rec orig is opt item is rwa incident is rec pRef is opt join is opt writing is rec pVar is opt joinGrp is opt shift is opt particDesc is opt keywords is opt superEntry is rwa pb is opt kinesic is rec entry is mwa per is opt l is mwa entryFree is mwa persName is opt label is rwa hom is opt person is opt lacunaEnd is opt sense is opt personGrp is opt lacunaStart is opt dictScrap is mwa phr is opt lang is rec form is rec placeName is opt langKnown is opt orth is rec pos is opt langUsage is rec pron is rec postBox is opt language is rec hyph is opt postCode is opt lb is opt syll is opt postscript is opt lbl is opt stress is opt preparedness is opt leaf is rwa gram is opt projectDesc is opt lem is rwa gen is rec ptr is opt lg is opt number is rec pubPlace is opt link is opt case is rec publisher is opt linkGrp is opt per is opt purpose is opt list is rwa tns is opt q is opt listBibl is opt mood is rwa quotation is opt listNym is opt iType is opt quote is opt listPerson is opt gramGrp is rec rdgGrp is opt listPlace is opt pos is opt re is opt listWit is rwa subc is opt recording is opt locale is opt colloc is opt ref is opt m is opt def is opt refState is opt macroSpec is opt etym is rec refsDecl is opt measure is opt lang is rec reg is opt meeting is opt usg is opt region is opt mentioned is rwa lbl is opt relation is opt metDecl is rec xr is opt relationGrp is opt metSym is opt re is opt remarks is opt milestone is opt oRef is opt residence is opt monogr is mwa oVar is opt resp is opt mood is rwa pRef is opt respons is opt move is opt pVar is opt rhyme is opt name is opt addSpan is opt roleDesc is opt nameLink is opt damage is opt roleName is opt nationality is opt damageSpan is opt rs is opt node is rwa delSpan is opt s is opt normalization is opt fw is opt said is opt note is rec handNotes is rec salute is opt notesStmt is opt handShift is rec samplingDecl is opt num is opt restore is rwa seg is opt number is rec space is opt segmentation is opt numeric is rwa supplied is opt sense is opt nym is opt app is mwa seriesStmt is opt oRef is opt lem is rwa set is opt oVar is opt rdg is req setting is opt occupation is opt rdgGrp is opt settingDesc is opt offset is opt witDetail is rwa settlement is opt opener is opt wit is rwa shift is opt org is opt listWit is rwa sic is opt orgName is opt witness is rwa signed is opt orig is opt witStart is opt soCalled is opt orth is rec witEnd is opt socecStatus is opt p is req lacunaStart is opt sound is opt pRef is opt lacunaEnd is opt sp is opt pVar is opt variantEncoding is mw space is opt particDesc is opt orgName is opt span is opt pb is opt persName is opt spanGrp is opt per is opt surname is opt speaker is opt performance is mwa forename is opt sponsor is opt persName is opt genName is opt street is opt person is opt nameLink is opt stress is opt personGrp is opt addName is opt subc is opt phr is opt roleName is opt supplied is opt placeName is opt placeName is opt surname is opt pos is opt bloc is opt syll is opt postBox is opt country is opt tag is opt postCode is opt region is opt taxonomy is opt postscript is opt district is opt tech is opt preparedness is opt settlement is opt textClass is opt principal is mwa offset is opt textDesc is opt profileDesc is rec geogName is opt time is opt projectDesc is opt geogFeat is opt timeline is opt prologue is mwa affiliation is opt title is opt pron is rec birth is opt tns is opt ptr is opt death is opt trailer is opt pubPlace is opt education is opt triangle is opt publicationStmt is re geo is opt unclear is opt publisher is opt geoDecl is rec usg is opt purpose is opt langKnown is opt vDefault is opt q is opt listPerson is opt val is opt quotation is opt listPlace is opt view is opt quote is opt nationality is opt w is opt rdg is req occupation is opt when is opt rdgGrp is opt org is opt witEnd is opt re is opt relationGrp is opt witStart is opt recording is opt person is opt xr is opt recordingStmt is rwa personGrp is opt anchor is rec ref is opt relation is opt back is rec refState is opt residence is opt case is rec refsDecl is opt socecStatus is opt docAuthor is rec reg is opt nym is opt docDate is rec region is opt listNym is opt docTitle is rec relation is opt table is rwa encodingDesc is rec relationGrp is opt row is rwa etym is rec remarks is opt cell is rwa form is rec rendition is rec formula is rwa front is rec residence is opt figure is rwa gen is rec resp is opt figDesc is rwa geoDecl is rec respStmt is rwa textDesc is opt gramGrp is rec respons is opt particDesc is opt handNotes is rec restore is rwa settingDesc is opt handShift is rec revisionDesc is rec channel is opt incident is rec rhyme is opt constitution is opt kinesic is rec role is mwa derivation is opt lang is rec roleDesc is opt domain is opt langUsage is rec roleName is opt factuality is opt language is rec root is rwa interaction is opt metDecl is rec row is rwa preparedness is opt note is rec rs is opt purpose is opt number is rec s is opt setting is opt orth is rec said is opt locale is opt profileDesc is rec salute is opt activity is opt pron is rec samplingDecl is opt link is opt rendition is rec scriptStmt is rwa linkGrp is opt revisionDesc is rec seg is opt ab is opt stdVals is rec segmentation is opt anchor is rec tagUsage is rec sense is opt seg is opt tagsDecl is rec series is mwa when is opt titlePage is rec seriesStmt is opt timeline is opt titlePart is rec set is opt join is opt vocal is rec setting is opt joinGrp is opt writing is rec settingDesc is opt alt is opt TEI is req settlement is opt altGrp is opt body is req shift is opt s is opt datatype is req sic is opt cl is opt defaultVal is req signed is opt phr is opt desc is req soCalled is opt w is opt fileDesc is req socecStatus is opt m is opt floatingText is req sound is opt c is opt p is req sourceDesc is req span is opt publicationStmt is req sp is opt spanGrp is opt rdg is req space is opt interp is opt sourceDesc is req span is opt interpGrp is opt stringVal is req spanGrp is opt fsdDecl is rwa teiHeader is req speaker is opt fsDecl is mwa text is req sponsor is opt fsDescr is opt titleStmt is req stage is mwa fDecl is mwa u is req stdVals is rec fDescr is opt binary is rwa street is opt vRange is mwa cell is rwa stress is opt vDefault is opt classSpec is rwa string is rwa if is opt classes is rwa stringVal is req then is mwa default is rwa subc is opt fsConstraints is opt div is rwa superEntry is rwa cond is opt div1 is rwa supplied is opt bicond is opt div2 is rwa surname is opt iff is mwa div3 is rwa syll is opt fs is rwa div4 is rwa symbol is rwa f is rwa div5 is rwa table is rwa binary is rwa div6 is rwa tag is opt symbol is rwa div7 is rwa tagUsage is rec numeric is rwa emph is rwa tagsDecl is rec string is rwa exemplum is rwa taxonomy is opt vLabel is rwa f is rwa tech is opt vColl is rwa fLib is rwa teiCorpus is mwa default is rwa figDesc is rwa teiHeader is req vAlt is rwa figure is rwa term is rwa vNot is rwa formula is rwa text is req vMerge is rwa fs is rwa textClass is opt fLib is rwa fsdDecl is rwa textDesc is opt fvLib is rwa fvLib is rwa then is mwa graph is rwa gloss is rwa time is opt node is rwa graph is rwa timeline is opt arc is opt head is rwa title is opt tree is rwa headItem is rwa titlePage is rec root is rwa headLabel is rwa titlePart is rec iNode is rwa iNode is rwa titleStmt is req leaf is rwa item is rwa tns is opt eTree is opt label is rwa trailer is opt triangle is opt leaf is rwa tree is rwa eLeaf is opt lem is rwa triangle is opt forest is opt list is rwa u is req forestGrp is opt listWit is rwa unclear is opt certainty is opt mentioned is rwa usg is opt respons is opt mood is rwa vAlt is rwa code is mwa node is rwa vColl is rwa eg is mwa numeric is rwa vDefault is opt egXML is mwa recordingStmt is rwa vLabel is rwa gi is mwa respStmt is rwa vMerge is rwa tag is opt restore is rwa vNot is rwa val is opt root is rwa vRange is mwa stringVal is req row is rwa val is opt elementSpec is opt scriptStmt is rwa valDesc is rwa classSpec is rwa string is rwa valItem is mwa macroSpec is opt superEntry is rwa valList is mwa remarks is opt symbol is rwa variantEncoding is mw exemplum is rwa table is rwa view is opt classes is rwa term is rwa vocal is rec equiv is opt tree is rwa w is opt content is opt vAlt is rwa when is opt attList is mwa vColl is rwa wit is rwa attDef is mwa vLabel is rwa witDetail is rwa attRef is mwa vMerge is rwa witEnd is opt datatype is req vNot is rwa witStart is opt defaultVal is req valDesc is rwa witness is rwa valDesc is rwa wit is rwa writing is rec valItem is mwa witDetail is rwa xr is opt valList is mwa witness is rwa -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Sep 6 17:12:48 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 22:12:48 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: META: rethinking usage= of ] In-Reply-To: <48C2D17C.4020806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48C2D17C.4020806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48C2F250.3020600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I really can't see any reason to disagree with Syd. That attribute looks entirely redundant. Its certainly not used. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Sep 6 18:26:12 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 23:26:12 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] current state Message-ID: <48C30384.8050003@oucs.ox.ac.uk> in preparation for next telco, if anyone wants to check the actual implementation of a feature/bug, http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/index.html is up to date, including PDF; as is Roma on this machine. I note this because the build has been broken for a week or so; it's now internally consistent again. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Sep 8 11:10:21 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:10:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: META: rethinking usage= of ] In-Reply-To: <48C2F250.3020600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48C2D17C.4020806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48C2F250.3020600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Sebastian, Just to clarify: we're talking here only about eliminating @usage from , retaining it for ? Makes sense to me. Probably rarely used by anyone. However, in P5/Exemplars there are two files in which elementSpec[@usage] occurs: tei_allPlus.odd and tei_odds.odd [only in 1 place each], so validation will break if the attribute is removed from the schema until those files are updated. David On Sat, 6 Sep 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > I really can't see any reason to disagree with Syd. That attribute > looks entirely redundant. Its certainly not used. > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Sep 8 11:26:03 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:26:03 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: META: rethinking usage= of ] In-Reply-To: References: <48C2D17C.4020806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48C2F250.3020600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <19D95B5D-E9AC-4193-88AB-C4E65AC2292B@loria.fr> Dear all, If I remember well the origins of ODD, this attribute was put on elementSpec in case we would want to impose that a given element be used only with the corresponding occurance indicator. I think it was clear that it would be good to have this feature in a systemic understand of the expressive power of odd, but it may actually be rare to see this applied (and it is not even implemented as such in Roma as a possible constraint). My intuition would be to document this possibility, indicate that it is not implemented (if I am right) and rare, but would not like it be dropped just because of its rarity. Cheers, Laurent Le 8 sept. 08 ? 17:10, David Sewell a ?crit : > Sebastian, > > Just to clarify: we're talking here only about eliminating @usage from > , retaining it for ? > > Makes sense to me. Probably rarely used by anyone. However, in > P5/Exemplars there are two files in which elementSpec[@usage] occurs: > tei_allPlus.odd and tei_odds.odd [only in 1 place each], so validation > will break if the attribute is removed from the schema until those > files > are updated. > > David > > On Sat, 6 Sep 2008, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > >> I really can't see any reason to disagree with Syd. That attribute >> looks entirely redundant. Its certainly not used. >> >> > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Sep 8 11:29:08 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:29:08 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: META: rethinking usage= of ] In-Reply-To: References: <48C2D17C.4020806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48C2F250.3020600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48C544C4.6070208@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > Just to clarify: we're talking here only about eliminating @usage from > , retaining it for ? > yes, thats right > Makes sense to me. Probably rarely used by anyone. However, in > P5/Exemplars there are two files in which elementSpec[@usage] occurs: > tei_allPlus.odd and tei_odds.odd [only in 1 place each], so validation > will break if the attribute is removed from the schema until those files > are updated. > oh sure, I am not suggesting we just do this willy-nilly without a lot of checking :-} -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Sep 8 11:46:11 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:46:11 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: META: rethinking usage= of ] In-Reply-To: <19D95B5D-E9AC-4193-88AB-C4E65AC2292B@loria.fr> References: <48C2D17C.4020806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48C2F250.3020600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <19D95B5D-E9AC-4193-88AB-C4E65AC2292B@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48C548C3.5030809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > If I remember well the origins of ODD, this attribute was put on > elementSpec in case we would want to impose that a given element be > used only with the corresponding occurance indicator. surely that's covered elsewhere, though, by standard content models? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Sep 8 12:00:48 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 18:00:48 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: META: rethinking usage= of ] In-Reply-To: <48C548C3.5030809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48C2D17C.4020806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48C2F250.3020600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <19D95B5D-E9AC-4193-88AB-C4E65AC2292B@loria.fr> <48C548C3.5030809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <10DDCE4F-7B57-4F0E-9558-76535638EEE3@loria.fr> We do need (probably for the next F2F in the spring) a dedicated session to ODD: present and future. Would you all agree to have such a technico-strategic discussion? Le 8 sept. 08 ? 17:46, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Laurent Romary wrote: >> If I remember well the origins of ODD, this attribute was put on >> elementSpec in case we would want to impose that a given element be >> used only with the corresponding occurance indicator. > > surely that's covered elsewhere, though, by standard content models? > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University > Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Sep 8 12:04:09 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 18:04:09 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Wiki space for the council Message-ID: As I am doing some TEI-council thinking, I feel unhappy by me jotting notes in a word document... Would it be possible to have a council space in the TEI wiki? From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Sep 8 12:23:15 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 12:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Wiki space for the council In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Done http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Council A placeholder page at the moment. Council members who want to contribute will need to create an account on the Wiki. (James, do you know if it's possible in MediaWiki to create user groups in order to limit editing permission for documents to a particular group of users?) On Mon, 8 Sep 2008, Laurent Romary wrote: > As I am doing some TEI-council thinking, I feel unhappy by me jotting > notes in a word document... Would it be possible to have a council > space in the TEI wiki? > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Sep 8 13:02:32 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:02:32 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: META: rethinking usage= of ] In-Reply-To: <10DDCE4F-7B57-4F0E-9558-76535638EEE3@loria.fr> References: <48C2D17C.4020806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48C2F250.3020600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <19D95B5D-E9AC-4193-88AB-C4E65AC2292B@loria.fr> <48C548C3.5030809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <10DDCE4F-7B57-4F0E-9558-76535638EEE3@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48C55AA8.8050704@oucs.ox.ac.uk> No harm in that, but there are some specific issues that need to be decided before then, e.g. the question of where to put schematron rules (SFFR 2055891) Laurent Romary wrote: > We do need (probably for the next F2F in the spring) a dedicated > session to ODD: present and future. Would you all agree to have such a > technico-strategic discussion? > > > Le 8 sept. 08 ? 17:46, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > >> Laurent Romary wrote: >>> If I remember well the origins of ODD, this attribute was put on >>> elementSpec in case we would want to impose that a given element be >>> used only with the corresponding occurance indicator. >> surely that's covered elsewhere, though, by standard content models? >> >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University >> Computing Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Sep 8 13:23:26 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 19:23:26 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: META: rethinking usage= of ] In-Reply-To: <48C55AA8.8050704@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48C2D17C.4020806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48C2F250.3020600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <19D95B5D-E9AC-4193-88AB-C4E65AC2292B@loria.fr> <48C548C3.5030809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <10DDCE4F-7B57-4F0E-9558-76535638EEE3@loria.fr> <48C55AA8.8050704@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <03361B78-0DC1-48BB-8313-9E89C984C166@loria.fr> True. It's one aspect of it. But remember what led to ODD: a clear view about what we wanted to acheive. I start being frightened by the prospect of having layers of patches in the guidelines (in ODD in particular) which may not make sense as a whole. But I am perhaps getting old... Le 8 sept. 08 ? 19:02, Lou Burnard a ?crit : > No harm in that, but there are some specific issues that need to be > decided before then, e.g. the question of where to put schematron > rules (SFFR 2055891) > > > > Laurent Romary wrote: >> We do need (probably for the next F2F in the spring) a dedicated >> session to ODD: present and future. Would you all agree to have >> such a technico-strategic discussion? >> Le 8 sept. 08 ? 17:46, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : >>> Laurent Romary wrote: >>>> If I remember well the origins of ODD, this attribute was put on >>>> elementSpec in case we would want to impose that a given element >>>> be used only with the corresponding occurance indicator. >>> surely that's covered elsewhere, though, by standard content models? >>> >>> -- >>> Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University >>> Computing Services >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Sep 8 13:25:40 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:25:40 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: META: rethinking usage= of ] In-Reply-To: <03361B78-0DC1-48BB-8313-9E89C984C166@loria.fr> References: <48C2D17C.4020806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48C2F250.3020600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <19D95B5D-E9AC-4193-88AB-C4E65AC2292B@loria.fr> <48C548C3.5030809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <10DDCE4F-7B57-4F0E-9558-76535638EEE3@loria.fr> <48C55AA8.8050704@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <03361B78-0DC1-48BB-8313-9E89C984C166@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48C56014.3080202@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > True. It's one aspect of it. But remember what led to ODD: a clear view > about what we wanted to acheive. I start being frightened by the > prospect of having layers of patches in the guidelines (in ODD in > particular) which may not make sense as a whole. But I am perhaps > getting old... me too but the @usage of elementSpec is not at all urgent, or anything like that. We can leave that alone until the spring. the issue of Schematron placement, lets discuss at the next telco. it does make me nervous as well. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Sep 8 13:34:48 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:34:48 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Wiki space for the council In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C56238.4000406@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > As I am doing some TEI-council thinking, I feel unhappy by me jotting > notes in a word document... Would it be possible to have a council > space in the TEI wiki? Anyone who desires is perfectly capable of adding in whatever pages they feel they want to the wiki. The question is whether the wiki is the right place for it. While anyone can edit it, it can of course be rolled back. There is already a TEI Council FAQ there. http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/TEI-Council-FAQ and I don't see any reason not to put other council-related information up there. If it is notes about what to cover at the next telco or f2f.. sort of a collaboratively created proto-agenda, then I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be stored in the wiki (as long as you note the history of who has added what points). -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Sep 8 15:28:36 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:28:36 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: META: rethinking usage= of ] In-Reply-To: <48C56014.3080202@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48C2D17C.4020806@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48C2F250.3020600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <19D95B5D-E9AC-4193-88AB-C4E65AC2292B@loria.fr> <48C548C3.5030809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <10DDCE4F-7B57-4F0E-9558-76535638EEE3@loria.fr> <48C55AA8.8050704@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <03361B78-0DC1-48BB-8313-9E89C984C166@loria.fr> <48C56014.3080202@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <0D7B36E0-5A1D-4A0A-BC8C-CA813E123EB6@loria.fr> You owe us a little note making a proposal, don't you ;-) Le 8 sept. 08 ? 19:25, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Laurent Romary wrote: >> True. It's one aspect of it. But remember what led to ODD: a clear >> view about what we wanted to acheive. I start being frightened by >> the prospect of having layers of patches in the guidelines (in ODD >> in particular) which may not make sense as a whole. But I am >> perhaps getting old... > > me too > > but the @usage of elementSpec is not at all urgent, or > anything like that. We can leave that alone until the spring. > > the issue of Schematron placement, lets discuss at the > next telco. it does make me nervous as well. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Sep 9 02:30:41 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 08:30:41 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Wiki space for the council In-Reply-To: <48C56238.4000406@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48C56238.4000406@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3A6C94EA-5543-4B71-B308-B48E2705E791@loria.fr> > If it is notes about what to cover at the next telco or f2f.. sort > of a collaboratively created proto-agenda, then I don't see any > reason why it shouldn't be stored in the wiki (as long as you note > the history of who has added what points). > That's exactly it and I have already started to structure the page provided by David accordingly. From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Sep 9 04:18:10 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 09:18:10 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] egXML and content Message-ID: <48C63142.50406@oucs.ox.ac.uk> In response to SF 2021933, I changed the default content model of to be "any XML element", which seems to have been agreed. If you need reminding, see https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&group_id=106328&atid=644062&aid=2021933 This change brings the default closer to the ODD actually used for TEI P5 (where is further constrained to be "any XML element in the TEI example namespace". However, this makes the content model of , which is also by default "text" , anomalous. This too should default to "anyXML element", and be specialised for P5 into "any RELAXNG element". The change in the P5 ODD from "text" to "XML" is actually making us non-conformant! If you disagree with this analysis, please shout! Otherwise I'll proceed with the change. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Sep 9 04:59:04 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 10:59:04 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] egXML and content In-Reply-To: <48C63142.50406@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48C63142.50406@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <07514915-10C2-4527-9FE7-E766255EB2B8@loria.fr> Green light on my side. Laurent Le 9 sept. 08 ? 10:18, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > In response to SF 2021933, I changed the default content model of > > to be "any XML element", which seems to have been agreed. If you need > reminding, see > https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&group_id=106328&atid=644062&aid=2021933 > > This change brings the default closer to the ODD actually used > for TEI P5 (where is further constrained to be "any XML > element > in the TEI example namespace". However, this makes the content > model of , which is also by default "text" , anomalous. > This too > should default to "anyXML element", and be specialised for P5 into > "any RELAXNG element". The change in the P5 ODD from "text" to "XML" > is actually making us non-conformant! > > If you disagree with this analysis, please shout! Otherwise I'll > proceed with the change. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Sep 9 05:54:01 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 10:54:01 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron rules Message-ID: <48C647B9.4060103@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Schematron rules in ODD ----------------------- Currently, we have no formal view on how constraints must be expressed in ODD. We have a general element whose content model is "text" by default, but which should be changed to "any XML", and that is as far as we go. For the purposes of TEI P5, we redefine to be " or any RELAX NG element, followed by any Schematron element", allowing us to write Schematron rules to extend the RELAX NG rules. This means that the TEI uses a conformant extension of itself. Problems -------- There are two problems: 1. Schematron rules can only be expressed in the context of an element, which is rather counter to the spirit of it. Where do we say "all ID attributes must be at least 8 characters long"? 2. A common requirement in a project ODD would be to *add* Schematron rules, but this at present means duplicating the whole of in "replace" mode, since the components are not identifiable. Solutions --------- There are three possibilities for fixing this: 1. allow Schematron rules to occur at the end of any , or (and even ), just sitting there in their own namespace 2. allow Schematron rules in , or (and even ) inside a new element , alongside in , and added to the other *Spec. 3. separate the Schematron entirely from the *Spec and say that the whole thing must be maintained separately, and not able to be tied to a particular element. It could be dropped in under . The first choice is inelegant, though conformant (since the added elements would be in their own namespace), and relatively easy to implement (a small change to the current setup). It would mean no change to the ODD language. The ODD processing tools we have would be adapted in an ad hoc way. The second choice would mean a change to ODD, as it would add a new element with no other purpose at present, and no default content model other than "anyXML". It would be fairly easy to implement and support in eg Roma. The main argument against this is that it is an ad hoc extension to ODD, with two elements and doing substantially the same thing. The third choice is simple to implement, but allows for no extension of ODD building on ODD, or granularity in the rules. Conclusion ---------- The disadvantages of the first and third proposals seem to me to outweigh the issues of the second. I therefore propose that we we add a element, with a content model of "any XML", in the following places 1. as a sibling of in elementSpec 2. as a sibling of in attDef 3. as a child of 4. as a child of For TEI itself, we would constrain the "any XML" as follows: - if the parent is or allow - if the parent is allow as well - if the parent is allow , and generate for each member of the class. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From jawalsh at indiana.edu Tue Sep 9 06:49:36 2008 From: jawalsh at indiana.edu (John A. Walsh) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 06:49:36 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron rules In-Reply-To: <48C647B9.4060103@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48C647B9.4060103@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <5FF891A2-80FB-4437-9774-D9FACDD4C39E@indiana.edu> Sebastian, I think you make a good argument for 2 as the most elegant solution. I'm not too bothered that and do "substantially the same thing." If we had one schema language that could "do it all" we wouldn't need both, but we don't have such a language, so describes the content of the element, and provides *additional* constraints for the content of the element. It seems it might make sense, conceptually, for to be a child of . John -- | John A. Walsh | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | www: | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 On Sep 9, 2008, at 5:54 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > Schematron rules in ODD > ----------------------- > > Currently, we have no formal view on how constraints > must be expressed in ODD. We have a general element > whose content model is "text" by default, > but which should be changed to "any XML", and that is > as far as we go. For the purposes of TEI P5, we > redefine to be " or any RELAX NG element, > followed by any Schematron element", allowing us to > write Schematron rules to extend the RELAX NG rules. This > means that the TEI uses a conformant extension of itself. > > Problems > -------- > There are two problems: > > 1. Schematron rules can only be expressed in the context of an > element, which is rather counter to the spirit of it. Where do > we say "all ID attributes must be at least 8 characters long"? > > 2. A common requirement in a project ODD would be to > *add* Schematron rules, but this at present means duplicating > the whole of in "replace" mode, since the components > are not identifiable. > > Solutions > --------- > > There are three possibilities for fixing this: > > 1. allow Schematron rules to occur at the end of any > , or (and even > ), just sitting there in their own namespace > > 2. allow Schematron rules in > , or (and even > ) inside a new element , > alongside in , and added to > the other *Spec. > > 3. separate the Schematron entirely from the *Spec > and say that the whole thing must be maintained > separately, and not able to be tied to a particular > element. It could be dropped in under . > > The first choice is inelegant, though conformant > (since the added elements would be in their own namespace), > and relatively easy to implement (a small change to the > current setup). It would mean no > change to the ODD language. The ODD processing tools > we have would be adapted in an ad hoc way. > > The second choice would mean a change to ODD, as it > would add a new element with no other purpose > at present, and no default content model other than > "anyXML". It would be fairly easy to implement and > support in eg Roma. The main argument against this > is that it is an ad hoc extension to ODD, with two > elements and doing substantially > the same thing. > > The third choice is simple to implement, but allows for no extension > of ODD building on ODD, or granularity in the rules. > > > Conclusion > ---------- > > The disadvantages of the first and third proposals > seem to me to outweigh the issues of the second. > I therefore propose that we we add a element, with > a content model of "any XML", in the following places > > 1. as a sibling of in elementSpec > 2. as a sibling of in attDef > 3. as a child of > 4. as a child of > > For TEI itself, we would constrain the "any XML" > as follows: > > - if the parent is or allow > - if the parent is allow as well > - if the parent is allow , > and generate for each member of the class. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Sep 9 06:51:42 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 11:51:42 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron rules In-Reply-To: <5FF891A2-80FB-4437-9774-D9FACDD4C39E@indiana.edu> References: <48C647B9.4060103@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <5FF891A2-80FB-4437-9774-D9FACDD4C39E@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <48C6553E.7010504@oucs.ox.ac.uk> John wrote: > It seems it > might make sense, conceptually, for to be a child of > . > that's a possibility. but since it also has to occur in classSpec and attDef and schemaSpec, I assumed it was easier to keep it simple. the other problem is that it would not solve one of my problems, viz the inability to update/replace/delete _components_ of -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Sep 9 10:32:43 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 16:32:43 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron rules In-Reply-To: <48C6553E.7010504@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48C647B9.4060103@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <5FF891A2-80FB-4437-9774-D9FACDD4C39E@indiana.edu> <48C6553E.7010504@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <9E8D79CB-2776-48D2-A980-E9919E05F00B@loria.fr> Exactly. And it seems that and are just two variations of one another (ideally member of a same class) Le 9 sept. 08 ? 12:51, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > John wrote: >> It seems it >> might make sense, conceptually, for to be a child of >> . >> > that's a possibility. but since it also has > to occur in classSpec and attDef and schemaSpec, > I assumed it was easier to keep it simple. > > the other problem is that it would not solve > one of my problems, viz the inability to > update/replace/delete _components_ > of > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Sep 9 10:35:34 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 15:35:34 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Schematron rules In-Reply-To: <9E8D79CB-2776-48D2-A980-E9919E05F00B@loria.fr> References: <48C647B9.4060103@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <5FF891A2-80FB-4437-9774-D9FACDD4C39E@indiana.edu> <48C6553E.7010504@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <9E8D79CB-2776-48D2-A980-E9919E05F00B@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48C689B6.2050609@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Exactly. And it seems that and are just two > variations of one another (ideally member of a same class) > yes, if we agree the principle, there may well be some class-wrangling to consider there. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 10 06:57:53 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:57:53 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Requests 1925125 and 1933198 In-Reply-To: <48BE8FBB.90204@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BCF49C.4070508@xs4all.nl> <48BD3D5A.1030107@kcl.ac.uk> <48BD58D2.9030909@kcl.ac.uk> <48BE8FBB.90204@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48C7A831.3000706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Gabriel Bodard wrote: > > It seems to be that orth and pron are red herrings, here-- at extent means > something different in these cases and so should *not* be replaced with > @quantity and @unit. Yes, I agree. @extent on seems to be used solely to show whether the pronunciation is given for the whole word or not (so it should really be something like @full="yes|no|dunno") @extent on has specific values full, pref(ix), suff(ix), part(ial) -- this could usefully be renamed, I think. From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Sep 10 07:20:15 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:20:15 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Requests 1925125 and 1933198 In-Reply-To: <48C7A831.3000706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BCF49C.4070508@xs4all.nl> <48BD3D5A.1030107@kcl.ac.uk> <48BD58D2.9030909@kcl.ac.uk> <48BE8FBB.90204@kcl.ac.uk> <48C7A831.3000706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <01A25258-A8D4-4C99-A82F-7E8886EC4282@loria.fr> I am lost here. If the point is to replace @extend everywhere else by @quantity and @unit, then there is no need to change @extend in and . Lou: you can be tough on me if I am being stupid here :-} Le 10 sept. 08 ? 12:57, Lou Burnard a ?crit : > Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> >> It seems to be that orth and pron are red herrings, here-- at extent >> means >> something different in these cases and so should *not* be replaced >> with >> @quantity and @unit. > > > Yes, I agree. @extent on seems to be used solely to show > whether > the pronunciation is given for the whole word or not (so it should > really be something like @full="yes|no|dunno") > > @extent on has specific values full, pref(ix), suff(ix), > part(ial) -- this could usefully be renamed, I think. > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 10 07:56:08 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:56:08 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Requests 1925125 and 1933198 In-Reply-To: <01A25258-A8D4-4C99-A82F-7E8886EC4282@loria.fr> References: <48B59266.601@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48BCF49C.4070508@xs4all.nl> <48BD3D5A.1030107@kcl.ac.uk> <48BD58D2.9030909@kcl.ac.uk> <48BE8FBB.90204@kcl.ac.uk> <48C7A831.3000706@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <01A25258-A8D4-4C99-A82F-7E8886EC4282@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48C7B5D8.9010408@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > I am lost here. If the point is to replace @extend everywhere else by > @quantity and @unit, then there is no need to change @extend in > and . > Lou: you can be tough on me if I am being stupid here :-} I think the plan is to in addition to @extent as a data.word have @unit and @quantity as a more specific version. @extent on orth and pron I believe means something different really from how @extent is used elsewhere. Perhaps a new attribute should be created for orth and pron? Though I may be misunderstanding the situation, I seem to be having one of those days. -James > > Le 10 sept. 08 ? 12:57, Lou Burnard a ?crit : > >> Gabriel Bodard wrote: >>> It seems to be that orth and pron are red herrings, here-- at extent >>> means >>> something different in these cases and so should *not* be replaced >>> with >>> @quantity and @unit. >> >> Yes, I agree. @extent on seems to be used solely to show >> whether >> the pronunciation is given for the whole word or not (so it should >> really be something like @full="yes|no|dunno") >> >> @extent on has specific values full, pref(ix), suff(ix), >> part(ial) -- this could usefully be renamed, I think. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Sep 10 09:14:19 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:14:19 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Quoting a TEI object Message-ID: In many cases, one has to map schemas and describe the mappings by reference to actual objects in the respective encoding schemes. In this context do (should) we have a mechanism to refer uniquely to TEI objects, beyond the reference to the TEI namespace ( in http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0) , sort of TEI unique identifiers? From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Sep 10 09:24:02 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:24:02 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Quoting a TEI object In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93A86855-E210-406A-97B7-D88AE256D102@loria.fr> Commenting my own message: do we even offer stability for URLs like http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ ? Le 10 sept. 08 ? 15:14, Laurent Romary a ?crit : > In many cases, one has to map schemas and describe the mappings by > reference to actual objects in the respective encoding schemes. In > this context do (should) we have a mechanism to refer uniquely to TEI > objects, beyond the reference to the TEI namespace ( in http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0) > , sort of TEI unique identifiers? > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 10 09:29:47 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:29:47 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Quoting a TEI object In-Reply-To: <93A86855-E210-406A-97B7-D88AE256D102@loria.fr> References: <93A86855-E210-406A-97B7-D88AE256D102@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48C7CBCB.7030203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Commenting my own message: do we even offer stability for URLs like http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ yes, I think so. that should remain unchanged -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Sep 10 09:35:14 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:35:14 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Quoting a TEI object In-Reply-To: <48C7CBCB.7030203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <93A86855-E210-406A-97B7-D88AE256D102@loria.fr> <48C7CBCB.7030203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <309AD697-301E-428D-8064-8D28BC25A20C@loria.fr> "should"? Should this not be officially stated somewhere? Le 10 sept. 08 ? 15:29, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Laurent Romary wrote: > >> Commenting my own message: do we even offer stability for URLs like http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ > > yes, I think so. that should remain unchanged > > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 10 09:47:52 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:47:52 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Quoting a TEI object In-Reply-To: <309AD697-301E-428D-8064-8D28BC25A20C@loria.fr> References: <93A86855-E210-406A-97B7-D88AE256D102@loria.fr> <48C7CBCB.7030203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <309AD697-301E-428D-8064-8D28BC25A20C@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48C7D008.7050504@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > "should"? > Should this not be officially stated somewhere? > hmm. where? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Sep 10 09:51:30 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:51:30 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Quoting a TEI object In-Reply-To: <48C7D008.7050504@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <93A86855-E210-406A-97B7-D88AE256D102@loria.fr> <48C7CBCB.7030203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <309AD697-301E-428D-8064-8D28BC25A20C@loria.fr> <48C7D008.7050504@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <94AB7562-8595-4E1C-9CF4-90267B0BFAE3@loria.fr> Everywhere ! Like at the beginning of the guidelines... at least should not the Council (or Board) state this? Le 10 sept. 08 ? 15:47, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Laurent Romary wrote: >> "should"? >> Should this not be officially stated somewhere? >> > hmm. where? > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University > Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Sep 10 09:58:27 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:58:27 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Quoting a TEI object In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C7D283.3020708@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > In many cases, one has to map schemas and describe the mappings by > reference to actual objects in the respective encoding schemes. In > this context do (should) we have a mechanism to refer uniquely to TEI > objects, beyond the reference to the TEI namespace ( in http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0) > , sort of TEI unique identifiers? As you suggest with your next message I'd think the proper way to cite an element, class, or datatype generally is to point to its reference page. http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-tree.html However, we might want to re-examine that... while the hierarchy should remain the same, deprecated elements (etc.) disappear. I have no way easy way to point to something at a particular date in time...unless maybe I point to it at a particular revision in the SVN source tree? Pointing to a location in the SVN source tree isn't necessarily very pretty but does work and is accurate: See for example an earlier version of http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tei/trunk/P5/Source/Specs/event.xml?revision=231&view=markup As a cognate example, I can point to any revision of a page in the TEI wiki at any point in its history. We should be able to do this, somehow, in the official way we are meant to cite TEI sources as changing objects in time. However, maybe an easier solution is to cite: http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-event.html but on the generated reference pages like this contain a link to the appropriate place in the SVN repository? i.e. http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tei/trunk/P5/Source/Specs/event.xml?view=log which lists all the revisions. -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Sep 10 10:05:21 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:05:21 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Quoting a TEI object In-Reply-To: <94AB7562-8595-4E1C-9CF4-90267B0BFAE3@loria.fr> References: <93A86855-E210-406A-97B7-D88AE256D102@loria.fr> <48C7CBCB.7030203@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <309AD697-301E-428D-8064-8D28BC25A20C@loria.fr> <48C7D008.7050504@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <94AB7562-8595-4E1C-9CF4-90267B0BFAE3@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48C7D421.6090008@kcl.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Everywhere ! Like at the beginning of the guidelines... at least > should not the Council (or Board) state this? The only place on the website where I am ware there are some recommendations with URLs is the citation page: http://www.tei-c.org/Guidelines/access.xml This could certainly be enriched with notes on how to point to an element on the line James suggests, but in that case would the version number be enough to point to particular revisions? Arianna > Le 10 sept. 08 ? 15:47, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > >> Laurent Romary wrote: >>> "should"? >>> Should this not be officially stated somewhere? >>> >> hmm. where? >> >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University >> Computing Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Sep 10 11:24:26 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Quoting a TEI object In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As an alternative to using a TEI-specific convention for citing URLs, we might want to consider adopting one or another of the standard systems for permanent identifiers, for example DOI (Digital Object Identifier). In the case of DOI, there would be some fairly minimal costs involved to register the DOIs with one of the national registries, but some more extensive costs in human time to set up a good system for mapping from our existing nomenclature to a set of DOI identifiers. (Publishers typically use DOIs to identify individual books or journal articles, but they can be more granular: every reference page in the Guidelines could have its own DOI, for example.) The advantage of doing this would be that anyone accustomed to using DOIs for citations could simply cite a DOI. So instead of the reference for in the Guidelines http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-name.html we would use something like doi:10.1111/tei-p5-doc:en:ref-name.html which would be resolved to the actual Web address by a DOI resolver. (Many journal DOIs are mostly numeric but the syntax allows more human-readable names). If we seriously want to consider an option like this, we should put out a call to the librarians/metadata gurus in our community for assistance with implementation. On Wed, 10 Sep 2008, Laurent Romary wrote: > In many cases, one has to map schemas and describe the mappings by > reference to actual objects in the respective encoding schemes. In > this context do (should) we have a mechanism to refer uniquely to TEI > objects, beyond the reference to the TEI namespace ( in http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0) > , sort of TEI unique identifiers? > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From pboot at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 10 16:41:56 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:41:56 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Quoting a TEI object In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C83114.2080600@xs4all.nl> David Sewell schreef: > The advantage of doing this would be that anyone accustomed to using > DOIs for citations could simply cite a DOI. So instead of the reference > for in the Guidelines > > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-name.html > > we would use something like > > doi:10.1111/tei-p5-doc:en:ref-name.html > The latter is certainly much more elegant and resistant to change. I'd remove the '.html' at the end. HTML might be yesteryear's fashion a few years from now :-) Peter From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Sep 11 17:34:15 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:34:15 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Mailing Addresses Message-ID: <1221168855.21431.21.camel@odonnelld-eng> Hello all, I would like to begin what I think is a new policy of writing a letter of thanks as chair of the TEI for your contributions to the organisation over the last year. This will be a fairly generic letter, but nevertheless something you can use for any professional reports, etc. you need to file. While we have institutional affiliations for everybody, we don't have mailing addresses. While I could look them up, it might be easier (for me at least) if you would consider emailing me with an address I can use in the letter. I would prefer writing to members of council rather than some other addressee for this, relatively standard, letter. If you need something addressed to somebody else, please contact me separately about that. Could you email me an address within the next week? Thanks very much! -dan -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Sep 11 17:55:56 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Mailing Addresses In-Reply-To: <1221168855.21431.21.camel@odonnelld-eng> References: <1221168855.21431.21.camel@odonnelld-eng> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, Dan O'Donnell wrote: > Could you email me an address within the next week? Thanks very much! See sig... PO Box for regular postal mail, street address for anything else, David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From pboot at xs4all.nl Fri Sep 12 04:38:48 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 10:38:48 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Request 2002418: New element = ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48CA2A98.5060103@xs4all.nl> I talked about this to a medievalist colleague and he agreed the phenomenon is a very common one and a element would be a welcome addition to the toolbox. The situation is clearly different from what you would encode using say or . Peter Tone Merete Bruvik schreef: > Ellen Nessheim Wiger at the Henrik Ibsen?s Writings project has added > a document to the SourceForge with some samples where they use the > suggested element , which is added to the DTD they are > using. You find this under the feature request 2002418 (http:// > sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php? > func=detail&aid=2002418&group_id=106328&atid=644065). > > Please have a look at it. Do you think it would be useful to add a > new element to encode this phenomenon in manuscripts? Or should > existing elements be used? > > Tone Merete Bruvik > tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no > ---- > The Research Group for Text Technology - Aksis (The Department of > Culture, Language and Information Technology), Unifob AS > All?gaten 27 - N-5020 Bergen, Norway > > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Sep 12 12:57:37 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Booking TEI meeting: Gatwick vs. Heathrow? Message-ID: Given a choice, flight costs being roughly equal, is it more convenient these days to fly into Gatwick or Heathrow airport? (Assuming public transit from airport to the city.) I've flown into Gatwick in recent years but not Heathrow. -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Sep 12 13:00:54 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 18:00:54 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Booking TEI meeting: Gatwick vs. Heathrow? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48CAA046.5010502@oucs.ox.ac.uk> David Sewell wrote: > Given a choice, flight costs being roughly equal, is it more convenient > these days to fly into Gatwick or Heathrow airport? (Assuming public > transit from airport to the city.) > > I've flown into Gatwick in recent years but not Heathrow. Not much in it. Both have (expensive) trains to central London of about same duration. Since I regard Heathrow as one of the most unpleasant places in the UK, perhaps Gatwick a little nicer. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Fri Sep 12 13:19:18 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:19:18 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Up for grabs: getting started sections Message-ID: <48CAA496.1070702@xs4all.nl> Hello all, A number of you have in the past volunteered to contribute sections to the getting started document. I think I'll have a first go myself at a number of sections that should use a continuing example, but I'd like to have candidates for writing a draft for the following sections: * 2. Should you use TEI? * 3. Technical background * 5. The rationale of declarative mark-up * 6. Choosing and installing an editor * 9. Getting this to work on sample of own text * 10. Schema's * 11. Where to go from here Please let me know if you're interested. If there should be conflicting claims, I'll try to adjudicate. Following David's suggestion I have put up the outline at http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Getting_Started. A meta-document about purpose, target, style, etc., is located at http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/About_Getting_Started. An html version is located provisionally at http://peterboot.nl/tei/gs.html. About the technical setup, see http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/About_Getting_Started#Technical_setup. Better ideas are welcome of course. Best, Peter From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Sep 12 13:36:52 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 18:36:52 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Booking TEI meeting: Gatwick vs. Heathrow? In-Reply-To: <48CAA046.5010502@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48CAA046.5010502@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48CAA8B4.2020200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > David Sewell wrote: >> Given a choice, flight costs being roughly equal, is it more convenient >> these days to fly into Gatwick or Heathrow airport? (Assuming public >> transit from airport to the city.) >> >> I've flown into Gatwick in recent years but not Heathrow. > > Not much in it. Both have (expensive) trains to central London > of about same duration. > > Since I regard Heathrow as one of the most unpleasant > places in the UK, perhaps Gatwick a little nicer. Whereas I would always fly into Heathrow out of preference over Gatwick... so I think it is just personal preference. I think transport links from Heathrow are slightly better, more frequent, etc., however I've not actually sat down and compared the two. Going to/from Terminal 4 in Heathrow for those of us from Oxford has gotten more difficult because now our bus doesn't go directly there. -James From pboot at xs4all.nl Fri Sep 12 13:40:55 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:40:55 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Start attribute in tei_odds.odd Message-ID: <48CAA9A7.1000105@xs4all.nl> The customisation tei_odds.odd on the website (which I assume derives from tei_odds.odd.pre in SourceForge) has a start attribute which includes and . Is there any particular reason why it should not contain
? The reason I ask is that I'd like to use the corresponding schema to validate the sections of the getting started document. I have created a parent document (gettingstarted.xml) that includes the separate sections using XInclude. The top level element in these sections is
. They won't validate if
is not allowed. Or is there a much better approach? Peter From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Sep 12 13:42:38 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 18:42:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Booking TEI meeting: Gatwick vs. Heathrow? In-Reply-To: <48CAA8B4.2020200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48CAA046.5010502@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48CAA8B4.2020200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48CAAA0E.5010700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: > > > Whereas I would always fly into Heathrow out of preference over > Gatwick... but thats cos you live in Oxford. David's travelling to the conference at Kings, which is proabbly slightly nearer Gatwick -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Sep 12 13:49:32 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 18:49:32 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Start attribute in tei_odds.odd In-Reply-To: <48CAA9A7.1000105@xs4all.nl> References: <48CAA9A7.1000105@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48CAABAC.1000704@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Peter Boot wrote: > The customisation tei_odds.odd on the website (which I assume derives > from tei_odds.odd.pre in SourceForge) has a start attribute which > includes and . Is there any particular reason why it should > not contain
? thats a hangover from when we used numbered divs in the Guidelines. I have changed it to have div, and not div1 or div2. Your suggestion looks fine to me -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Sep 12 13:55:57 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 18:55:57 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Booking TEI meeting: Gatwick vs. Heathrow? In-Reply-To: <48CAAA0E.5010700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48CAA046.5010502@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48CAA8B4.2020200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48CAAA0E.5010700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48CAAD2D.60503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > James Cummings wrote: >> >> >> Whereas I would always fly into Heathrow out of preference over >> Gatwick... > > but thats cos you live in Oxford. David's travelling > to the conference at Kings, which is proabbly slightly > nearer Gatwick Seems a toss up when I look on nationalrail.co.uk the time including changes is about the same, but there is an extra change coming from heathrow. Trains from heathrow seem to be more frequent, but that also means it is a busier route. Swings and roundabouts as someone might say. -James From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Sep 12 14:20:27 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 14:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Booking TEI meeting: Gatwick vs. Heathrow? In-Reply-To: <48CAAD2D.60503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48CAA046.5010502@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48CAA8B4.2020200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48CAAA0E.5010700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48CAAD2D.60503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Thanks--this all indicates that one should probably pick the arrival airport that offers the best option in departure/arrival times, so that's what I'll aim for. On Fri, 12 Sep 2008, James Cummings wrote: > Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > James Cummings wrote: > > > > > > > > > Whereas I would always fly into Heathrow out of preference over Gatwick... > > > > but thats cos you live in Oxford. David's travelling > > to the conference at Kings, which is proabbly slightly > > nearer Gatwick > > Seems a toss up when I look on nationalrail.co.uk the time including changes > is about the same, but there is an extra change coming from heathrow. Trains > from heathrow seem to be more frequent, but that also means it is a busier > route. Swings and roundabouts as someone might say. > > -James > > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Sat Sep 13 08:34:03 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 08:34:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Up for grabs: getting started sections In-Reply-To: <48CAA496.1070702@xs4all.nl> References: <48CAA496.1070702@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I can volunteer to do #3, Technical background, to start with. (However, I am on vacation from today through next Saturday, so I may or may not be able to start before I return.) On Fri, 12 Sep 2008, Peter Boot wrote: > Hello all, > > A number of you have in the past volunteered to contribute sections to > the getting started document. I think I'll have a first go myself at a > number of sections that should use a continuing example, but I'd like to > have candidates for writing a draft for the following sections: > > * 2. Should you use TEI? > * 3. Technical background > * 5. The rationale of declarative mark-up > * 6. Choosing and installing an editor > * 9. Getting this to work on sample of own text > * 10. Schema's > * 11. Where to go from here > > Please let me know if you're interested. If there should be conflicting > claims, I'll try to adjudicate. > > Following David's suggestion I have put up the outline at > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Getting_Started. A meta-document > about purpose, target, style, etc., is located at > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/About_Getting_Started. An html > version is located provisionally at http://peterboot.nl/tei/gs.html. > > About the technical setup, see > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/About_Getting_Started#Technical_setup. > Better ideas are welcome of course. > > Best, > Peter > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager Electronic Imprint, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 400318, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://www.ei.virginia.edu/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Oct 2 21:45:19 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 21:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] 7 October phone conference Message-ID: All, It's very unlikely that I'll be able to take part in the Council conference call on the 7th. My father is dying and I'm flying out to California the day after tomorrow to stay for at least a few days. Could someone else please volunteer to take minutes this time? If I am in a position to join in, I will. I still hope to see you all in London! My father has had 92 good years and was proud to see my name among all of yours when I showed him the TEI Council list earlier this year (something about "Oxford" and "Max Planck" and "Cologne" and so forth), so I know he'd want me to be there. David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Fri Oct 3 07:45:25 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:45:25 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Booking TEI meeting: Gatwick vs. Heathrow? In-Reply-To: References: <48CAA046.5010502@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48CAA8B4.2020200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48CAAA0E.5010700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48CAAD2D.60503@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48E605D5.8010604@kcl.ac.uk> Hi David, I am really sorry I missed this thread of emails and so you have probably already booked your flight. Indeed, both airports have similar facilities (see http://www.cch.kcl.ac.uk/cocoon/tei2008/practical/travel.html - although from Heathrow you can also take the tube all the way to central London and to Covent garden - very close to conference venue -....it takes much longer though). The express train from Heathrow takes you to Paddington station, while the express train from Gatwick takes you to Vicoria. So if you haven't booked yet, see where your hotel is and, if you are not getting a taxi, how easy is to get there from these stations (tube maps at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/1106.aspx). Best, Arianna David Sewell wrote: > Thanks--this all indicates that one should probably pick the arrival > airport that offers the best option in departure/arrival times, so > that's what I'll aim for. > > On Fri, 12 Sep 2008, James Cummings wrote: > >> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: >>> James Cummings wrote: >>>> >>>> Whereas I would always fly into Heathrow out of preference over Gatwick... >>> but thats cos you live in Oxford. David's travelling >>> to the conference at Kings, which is proabbly slightly >>> nearer Gatwick >> Seems a toss up when I look on nationalrail.co.uk the time including changes >> is about the same, but there is an extra change coming from heathrow. Trains >> from heathrow seem to be more frequent, but that also means it is a busier >> route. Swings and roundabouts as someone might say. >> >> -James >> >> > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Fri Oct 3 08:25:44 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 13:25:44 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Up for grabs: getting started sections In-Reply-To: <48CAA496.1070702@xs4all.nl> References: <48CAA496.1070702@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48E60F48.2030706@kcl.ac.uk> Hi Peter, I would be happy to give a go at section 5 unless somebody has taken it, but do we have a deadline for this? Also, would it be fine to use something other than a drama example? Thanks, Arianna Peter Boot wrote: > Hello all, > > A number of you have in the past volunteered to contribute sections to > the getting started document. I think I'll have a first go myself at a > number of sections that should use a continuing example, but I'd like to > have candidates for writing a draft for the following sections: > > * 2. Should you use TEI? > * 3. Technical background > * 5. The rationale of declarative mark-up > * 6. Choosing and installing an editor > * 9. Getting this to work on sample of own text > * 10. Schema's > * 11. Where to go from here > > Please let me know if you're interested. If there should be conflicting > claims, I'll try to adjudicate. > > Following David's suggestion I have put up the outline at > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Getting_Started. A meta-document > about purpose, target, style, etc., is located at > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/About_Getting_Started. An html > version is located provisionally at http://peterboot.nl/tei/gs.html. > > About the technical setup, see > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/About_Getting_Started#Technical_setup. > Better ideas are welcome of course. > > Best, > Peter > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From pboot at xs4all.nl Fri Oct 3 09:30:01 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:30:01 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Up for grabs: getting started sections In-Reply-To: <48E60F48.2030706@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48CAA496.1070702@xs4all.nl> <48E60F48.2030706@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48E61E59.7040005@xs4all.nl> Hi Arianna and others, Arianna Ciula schreef: > I would be happy to give a go at section 5 unless somebody has taken > it, but do we have a deadline for this? Also, would it be fine to use > something other than a drama example? James, David and Laurent are working on 2 Should you use TEI?, 3 Technical background, and 10 Schema's. So you're free to have a go at section 5. To use drama mark-up to explain this seemed like a good idea, because drama has some obvious structure that needs to be represented. But if you want to use another example, please go ahead. I'm using the Graves diary as an example in section 4 Overall structure of a TEI text. I didn't set a deadline, but we wanted to have an early draft ready for the members meeting. So it would be good to write something over the coming weeks. Anyone else interested in these? * 6. Choosing and installing an editor * 9. Getting this to work on sample of own text * 11. Where to go from here (See the outline at http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Getting_Started and a meta-document about purpose, target, style, etc. at http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/About_Getting_Started.) Best, Peter From tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no Mon Oct 6 05:58:17 2008 From: tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no (Tone Merete Bruvik) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:58:17 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] 7 October phone conference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7928967C-11FD-4A0E-BC18-8A6438D2DFB1@aksis.uib.no> I am sorry, but I only be able to attend the first 15 minutes of the phone conference tomorrow. The pragmatic reason is that we have to pick up our daughter at the kindergarden about that time, and tomorrow is my husband out of town in a meeting. Our daughter Siv has a hearing problem, and is attending a special kindergarden across town, which makes it difficult to ask anyone to help in cases as this. Best regards, Tone Merete Den 3. okt. 2008 kl. 03.45 skrev David Sewell: > All, > > It's very unlikely that I'll be able to take part in the Council > conference call on the 7th. My father is dying and I'm flying out to > California the day after tomorrow to stay for at least a few days. > Could > someone else please volunteer to take minutes this time? > > If I am in a position to join in, I will. > > I still hope to see you all in London! My father has had 92 good years > and was proud to see my name among all of yours when I showed him the > TEI Council list earlier this year (something about "Oxford" and "Max > Planck" and "Cologne" and so forth), so I know he'd want me to be > there. > > David > > -- > David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager > ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press > PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA > Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 > Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 > Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From susan.schreibman at gmail.com Mon Oct 6 14:54:17 2008 From: susan.schreibman at gmail.com (Susan Schreibman) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:54:17 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] tuesday Council meeting Message-ID: <48EA5ED9.3000309@gmail.com> I'm so sorry. I'm unlikely to make the Council meeting. Our offices were broken into at the weekend and it's likely I'll have to attend to these matters again tomorrow. susan -- Susan Schreibman, PhD Director Digital Humanities Observatory 28-32 Pembroke Street Upper Dublin 2 -- A project of the Royal Irish Academy -- Phone: +353 1 234 2440 Mobile: +353 86 049 1966 Fax: +353 1 234 2588 Email:` s.schreibman at ria.ie http://dho.ie http://irith.org http://macgreevy.org http://v-machine.org From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Oct 7 05:17:54 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:17:54 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Council report Message-ID: <24580FD9-A615-4773-AFA3-7B2697036C2A@loria.fr> For our Telco this afternoon, I put below a copy/paste from my draft slides I intend to present at the next TEI MM. Cheers, Laurent TEI Council Laurent Romary Overview A good team and a good atmosphere Technical work and evangelisation E.g. http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw12.xml ? a trial phase (2 years) Council members Term January 2007 to December 2008 Tone Merete Bruvik (University of Bergen, NO) Arianna Ciula (King's College London, UK) James Cummings (University of Oxford, UK) John Walsh (Indiana University, US) Term January 2008 to December 2009 Gabriel Bodard, (King's College London, UK) Peter Boot (Huygens Institute,NL) Elena Pierazzo (King's College London) Paul Schaffner (University of Michigan, US) David Sewell (University of Virginia, US) Manfred Thaller (University of Cologne, DE) Non-elected Laurent Romary (Chair) Daniel O'Donnell (Board Chair) Meetings 2008 7 February 2008: conference call 3 - 4 April 2008: Galway Meeting Local organisation: Moore Institute (Malte Rehbein) Symposium on Wed. 2 April 21 August 2008: conference call 7 October 2008: conference call 2009 Request for two face to face meetings Call for hosting! Organisation No more editors? but Editorial support group Oxford (Lou Burnard, Sebastian Rahtz, James Cummings) Duties ?air traffic controller?: monitoring of bug and feature requests, periodic summaries of significant changes Handling minor fixes and prepare releases Maintain tools (XSL stylesheets and Roma) Connection to SIGs Susan Schreibman (SIG chair) Guideline status Two major official releases per year TEI P5 1.1.0, Jul 2008 TEI P5 1.0.1 (Feb 2008) TEI P5 1.xxxx, TEI MM Ongoing version on SourceForge Releases SourceForge update, compiled packages+schemas, guidelines Handling changes All requests handled through the TEI SourceForge tracker (Bugs and features) Editorial support group duty Trace bug/features on TEI-L and TEI-C discussion lists Note: TEI-L as main source for feedback from the community Prepare cases for council meetings Break out sessions in Galway green, amber, red lists in Telcos Outreach Improvement of List, Website and Wiki usage and support Liaison with the TEI board Update on examples in the guidelines Connection with SIGs ?Corresponding? council member E.g. Manuscripts - Elena Pierazzo Correspondence - David Sewell Physical bibliographies - Paul Schaffner TEI in libraries SIG - John Walsh Getting started with the TEI Ed. Peter Boot Tools Internationalization Misc. Projects: TEI-ISO collaboration, TEI Tite, ENRICH Any plans for next year? Roadmap to P6 Critical apparatus chapter Recommendation for editing genetic editions Better support to communities E.g. P4 to P5 ? ? comments welcome Pointers Council web page http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/ Council Wiki http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Council Getting started http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Getting_Started SourceForge http://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Oct 7 06:13:34 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:13:34 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Telco: Connexion details Message-ID: Connexion details: To use the HighSpeed Conferencing service, you may either call from: Skype Number: +9900827041349998 OR Telephone Number: 605-475-8800 To use the HighSpeed Conferencing service, call (tollfree): From the US call #:1-888-350-0075 From Canada call #:1-866-827-7799 Conference Room Number: 1349998 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Oct 7 06:15:31 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:15:31 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Agenda online Message-ID: <680F6DA4-CD79-403C-98C6-89C591E44595@loria.fr> I have gathered agenda items for this afternoon call. See http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Council Please provide additional pointers when possible. Laurent From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Oct 7 08:54:20 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:54:20 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Telco: Connexion details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: BTW. We start in 6 minutes, don't we? Le 7 oct. 08 ? 14:52, Paul F. Schaffner a ?crit : > On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Laurent Romary wrote: > >> Connexion details: >> Telephone Number: 605-475-8800 > > Last time, I believe, those calling this number received a > warning that it was no longer valid, and were redirected to > 201-793-9022. > > Or at least that is what happened to *me*. > > pfs > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Paul Schaffner | PFSchaffner at umich.edu | http://www.umich.edu/~pfs/ > 316-C Hatcher Library N, Univ. of Michigan, Ann Arbor MI 48109-1205 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Oct 7 08:58:28 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:58:28 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Telco: Connexion details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48EB5CF4.30001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > BTW. We start in 6 minutes, don't we? > gosh, I hope not. I think its in 1 hour and 2 minutes -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 7 08:59:27 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:59:27 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Telco: Connexion details In-Reply-To: <48EB5CF4.30001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48EB5CF4.30001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48EB5D2F.50707@xs4all.nl> Sebastian Rahtz schreef: > Laurent Romary wrote: >> BTW. We start in 6 minutes, don't we? >> > gosh, I hope not. I think its in 1 hour and 2 minutes > > No, it's about now From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Oct 7 09:00:45 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:00:45 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Telco: Connexion details In-Reply-To: <48EB5CF4.30001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48EB5CF4.30001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <67132FAF-B3C6-4011-901B-6E93412BB8A3@loria.fr> No, no. It's now! Le 7 oct. 08 ? 14:58, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > Laurent Romary wrote: >> BTW. We start in 6 minutes, don't we? > gosh, I hope not. I think its in 1 hour and 2 minutes > > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Oct 7 10:15:21 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:15:21 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Council report In-Reply-To: <24580FD9-A615-4773-AFA3-7B2697036C2A@loria.fr> References: <24580FD9-A615-4773-AFA3-7B2697036C2A@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48EB6EF9.7080503@kcl.ac.uk> Hi Laurent, here are some notes on this. First for all, as I said, the SIGs that are definitively meeting in November are listed at http://www.cch.kcl.ac.uk/cocoon/tei2008/programme/index.html (bottom of the page); so if there are other SIGs that are supposed to meet please let us and Susan know as soon as possible. As far as planning for the next two years, although some of the more strategical directions are up to the board to give - as Sebastian remarked, I still think that besides expanding (e.g. recommendations on physical bibliography) and improving (e.g. critical apparatus) the existing guidelines, we should add to our plan the following: - recommendations on integrating with/mapping to other standards (note the some of this is actually being done by SIGs) - collection of style sheets templates by module (we mentioned this at the last face to face meeting) - connection to other outreach projects (you mention some, but what about 'TEI by example'?) Arianna Laurent Romary wrote: > For our Telco this afternoon, I put below a copy/paste from my draft > slides I intend to present at the next TEI MM. > Cheers, > Laurent > > > TEI Council > Laurent Romary > Overview > A good team and a good atmosphere > > Technical work and evangelisation > E.g. http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw12.xml > > ? a trial phase (2 years) > Council members > Term January 2007 to December 2008 > Tone Merete Bruvik (University of Bergen, NO) > Arianna Ciula (King's College London, UK) > James Cummings (University of Oxford, UK) > John Walsh (Indiana University, US) > Term January 2008 to December 2009 > Gabriel Bodard, (King's College London, UK) > Peter Boot (Huygens Institute,NL) > Elena Pierazzo (King's College London) > Paul Schaffner (University of Michigan, US) > David Sewell (University of Virginia, US) > Manfred Thaller (University of Cologne, DE) > Non-elected > Laurent Romary (Chair) > Daniel O'Donnell (Board Chair) > Meetings > 2008 > 7 February 2008: conference call > 3 - 4 April 2008: Galway Meeting > Local organisation: Moore Institute (Malte Rehbein) > Symposium on Wed. 2 April > 21 August 2008: conference call > 7 October 2008: conference call > 2009 > Request for two face to face meetings > Call for hosting! > Organisation > No more editors? but > Editorial support group > Oxford (Lou Burnard, Sebastian Rahtz, James Cummings) > Duties > ?air traffic controller?: monitoring of bug and feature requests, > periodic summaries of significant changes > Handling minor fixes and prepare releases > Maintain tools (XSL stylesheets and Roma) > Connection to SIGs > Susan Schreibman (SIG chair) > Guideline status > Two major official releases per year > TEI P5 1.1.0, Jul 2008 > TEI P5 1.0.1 (Feb 2008) > TEI P5 1.xxxx, TEI MM > Ongoing version on SourceForge > Releases > SourceForge update, compiled packages+schemas, guidelines > Handling changes > All requests handled through the TEI SourceForge tracker (Bugs and > features) > Editorial support group duty > Trace bug/features on TEI-L and TEI-C discussion lists > Note: TEI-L as main source for feedback from the community > Prepare cases for council meetings > Break out sessions in Galway > green, amber, red lists in Telcos > > Outreach > Improvement of List, Website and Wiki usage and support > Liaison with the TEI board > Update on examples in the guidelines > Connection with SIGs > ?Corresponding? council member > E.g. > Manuscripts - Elena Pierazzo > Correspondence - David Sewell > Physical bibliographies - Paul Schaffner > TEI in libraries SIG - John Walsh > Getting started with the TEI > Ed. Peter Boot > Tools > Internationalization > Misc. Projects: TEI-ISO collaboration, TEI Tite, ENRICH > Any plans for next year? > Roadmap to P6 > Critical apparatus chapter > Recommendation for editing genetic editions > Better support to communities > E.g. P4 to P5 > ? > > ? comments welcome > Pointers > Council web page > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/ > Council Wiki > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Council > Getting started > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Getting_Started > SourceForge > http://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/ > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Oct 7 10:45:16 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 08:45:16 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Council report In-Reply-To: <48EB6EF9.7080503@kcl.ac.uk> References: <24580FD9-A615-4773-AFA3-7B2697036C2A@loria.fr> <48EB6EF9.7080503@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1223390716.14285.32.camel@caedmon> On Tue, 2008-10-07 at 15:15 +0100, Arianna Ciula wrote: > As far as planning for the next two years, although some of the more > strategical directions are up to the board to give - as Sebastian > remarked, I still think that besides expanding (e.g. recommendations on > physical bibliography) and improving (e.g. critical apparatus) the > existing guidelines, we should add to our plan the following: > > - recommendations on integrating with/mapping to other standards (note > the some of this is actually being done by SIGs) > - collection of style sheets templates by module (we mentioned this at > the last face to face meeting) > - connection to other outreach projects (you mention some, but what > about 'TEI by example'?) Excellent suggestions, Arianna. That second one?which at the f2f was assigned to me and sebastian?should probably go in sf as a feature request, as perhaps should parts of your first. The third is something that I've long wanted us to do. In the case of the SIGs and the connection to other projects moreover, I and a couple of other board members have discussed ways of encouraging this kind of outreach and connection structurally/financially. By establishing some kind of small grant/bounty similar to the Google summer of code approach for graduate students or the like who wanted to work on some suitable software or documentation for tools or integration. The board is supposed to be putting together such blue-sky ideas for consideration at its meeting in London. Particularly if you have ideas about how we might encourage such contacts structurally in addition to just promoting enthusiasm, please let me know! > > Arianna > > Laurent Romary wrote: > > For our Telco this afternoon, I put below a copy/paste from my draft > > slides I intend to present at the next TEI MM. > > Cheers, > > Laurent > > > > > > TEI Council > > Laurent Romary > > Overview > > A good team and a good atmosphere > > > > Technical work and evangelisation > > E.g. http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/Working/tcw12.xml > > > > ? a trial phase (2 years) > > Council members > > Term January 2007 to December 2008 > > Tone Merete Bruvik (University of Bergen, NO) > > Arianna Ciula (King's College London, UK) > > James Cummings (University of Oxford, UK) > > John Walsh (Indiana University, US) > > Term January 2008 to December 2009 > > Gabriel Bodard, (King's College London, UK) > > Peter Boot (Huygens Institute,NL) > > Elena Pierazzo (King's College London) > > Paul Schaffner (University of Michigan, US) > > David Sewell (University of Virginia, US) > > Manfred Thaller (University of Cologne, DE) > > Non-elected > > Laurent Romary (Chair) > > Daniel O'Donnell (Board Chair) > > Meetings > > 2008 > > 7 February 2008: conference call > > 3 - 4 April 2008: Galway Meeting > > Local organisation: Moore Institute (Malte Rehbein) > > Symposium on Wed. 2 April > > 21 August 2008: conference call > > 7 October 2008: conference call > > 2009 > > Request for two face to face meetings > > Call for hosting! > > Organisation > > No more editors? but > > Editorial support group > > Oxford (Lou Burnard, Sebastian Rahtz, James Cummings) > > Duties > > ?air traffic controller?: monitoring of bug and feature requests, > > periodic summaries of significant changes > > Handling minor fixes and prepare releases > > Maintain tools (XSL stylesheets and Roma) > > Connection to SIGs > > Susan Schreibman (SIG chair) > > Guideline status > > Two major official releases per year > > TEI P5 1.1.0, Jul 2008 > > TEI P5 1.0.1 (Feb 2008) > > TEI P5 1.xxxx, TEI MM > > Ongoing version on SourceForge > > Releases > > SourceForge update, compiled packages+schemas, guidelines > > Handling changes > > All requests handled through the TEI SourceForge tracker (Bugs and > > features) > > Editorial support group duty > > Trace bug/features on TEI-L and TEI-C discussion lists > > Note: TEI-L as main source for feedback from the community > > Prepare cases for council meetings > > Break out sessions in Galway > > green, amber, red lists in Telcos > > > > Outreach > > Improvement of List, Website and Wiki usage and support > > Liaison with the TEI board > > Update on examples in the guidelines > > Connection with SIGs > > ?Corresponding? council member > > E.g. > > Manuscripts - Elena Pierazzo > > Correspondence - David Sewell > > Physical bibliographies - Paul Schaffner > > TEI in libraries SIG - John Walsh > > Getting started with the TEI > > Ed. Peter Boot > > Tools > > Internationalization > > Misc. Projects: TEI-ISO collaboration, TEI Tite, ENRICH > > Any plans for next year? > > Roadmap to P6 > > Critical apparatus chapter > > Recommendation for editing genetic editions > > Better support to communities > > E.g. P4 to P5 > > ? > > > > ? comments welcome > > Pointers > > Council web page > > http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/Council/ > > Council Wiki > > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Council > > Getting started > > http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Getting_Started > > SourceForge > > http://sourceforge.net/projects/tei/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Oct 7 10:46:36 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:46:36 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines versions online (wrt date) Message-ID: <48EB764C.5060405@kcl.ac.uk> I am slightly confused by the different pages available at the following two URLs: 1) http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-date.html 2) http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-date.html The latter seems to be more up-to-date, so I expect that the former is an old URL that hasn't been removed from the server. Can someone confirm? And should we kill that (or redirect) to avoid confusion? However, this leads me to another question: the difference between the two seems to be that @precision has been added to att.editLike (since (2) is the same in this regard as http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-date.html). From where, as per the latest precision discussions, it should shortly be removed again, no? If @precision is a member of att.ranging instead of att.editLike, then how does date get @precision--since it doesn't need the other attributes in att.ranging? (This is not, to the best of my knowledge, the conversation I am supposed to be having with Lou this afternoon.) Best, Gabby -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Oct 7 12:05:02 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:05:02 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines versions online (wrt date) In-Reply-To: <48EB764C.5060405@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48EB764C.5060405@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48EB88AE.5030803@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Gabriel Bodard wrote: > I am slightly confused by the different pages available at the following > two URLs: > > 1) http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-date.html > > 2) http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-date.html > > The latter seems to be more up-to-date, so I expect that the former is > an old URL that hasn't been removed from the server. Can someone > confirm? And should we kill that (or redirect) to avoid confusion? This is probably something that needs to be pointed out to the people who run the Virginian website > > However, this leads me to another question: the difference between the > two seems to be that @precision has been added to att.editLike (since > (2) is the same in this regard as > http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-date.html). > From where, as per the latest precision discussions, it should shortly > be removed again, no? If @precision is a member of att.ranging instead > of att.editLike, then how does date get @precision--since it doesn't > need the other attributes in att.ranging? err, what is att.ranging? and why are we going to remove @precision from att.editLike? (This is not, to the best of > my knowledge, the conversation I am supposed to be having > with Lou this afternoon.) > > clearly! From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Oct 7 12:09:50 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 18:09:50 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines versions online (wrt date) In-Reply-To: <48EB88AE.5030803@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48EB764C.5060405@kcl.ac.uk> <48EB88AE.5030803@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <0D77960F-AC21-4040-9E81-F78E7A7CE784@loria.fr> A general question (for all reftags) is do we need 1)? since 2) is just one instance of many, see: http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/fr/html/ref-date.html I would suggest to make disappear all occurances similar to 1) Le 7 oct. 08 ? 18:05, Lou Burnard a ?crit : > Gabriel Bodard wrote: >> I am slightly confused by the different pages available at the >> following >> two URLs: >> >> 1) http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-date.html >> >> 2) http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-date.html >> >> The latter seems to be more up-to-date, so I expect that the former >> is >> an old URL that hasn't been removed from the server. Can someone >> confirm? And should we kill that (or redirect) to avoid confusion? > > This is probably something that needs to be pointed out to the people > who run the Virginian website > > >> >> However, this leads me to another question: the difference between >> the >> two seems to be that @precision has been added to att.editLike (since >> (2) is the same in this regard as >> http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-date.html) >> . >> From where, as per the latest precision discussions, it should >> shortly >> be removed again, no? If @precision is a member of att.ranging >> instead >> of att.editLike, then how does date get @precision--since it doesn't >> need the other attributes in att.ranging? > > err, what is att.ranging? > > and why are we going to remove @precision from att.editLike? > > > > > (This is not, to the best of >> my knowledge, the conversation I am supposed to be >> having >> with Lou this afternoon.) >> >> > > clearly! > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tue Oct 7 13:18:15 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:18:15 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines versions online (wrt date) In-Reply-To: <48EB88AE.5030803@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48EB764C.5060405@kcl.ac.uk> <48EB88AE.5030803@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48EB99D7.2010201@kcl.ac.uk> Lou Burnard a ?crit : > err, what is att.ranging? Okay, att.ranging doesn't exist in the version of the GLs you sent me (which I should have looked at more closely) although it did in James and my proposal. > and why are we going to remove @precision from att.editLike? Because, as I thought we had agreed last month, most of the elements in att.editLike don't need @precision (only those with numerical values that might populate @quantity/@unit and require @min/@max/@atLeast/@atMost). If @precision lives instead in att.dimensions then it isn't needed in att.editLike at all. But date still needs it somehow, while it doesn't need the rest. Maybe we should arrange to chat about this again in the next few days? G -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Oct 7 14:40:45 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:40:45 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Guidelines versions online (wrt date) In-Reply-To: <0D77960F-AC21-4040-9E81-F78E7A7CE784@loria.fr> References: <48EB764C.5060405@kcl.ac.uk> <48EB88AE.5030803@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <0D77960F-AC21-4040-9E81-F78E7A7CE784@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48EBAD2D.4040903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > A general question (for all reftags) is do we need 1)? since 2) is > just one instance of many, see: > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/fr/html/ref-date.html > > I would suggest to make disappear all occurances similar to 1) its a mistake; "html" should be a symlink to "en/html" I've asked Chris R to poke it. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 7 17:58:55 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:58:55 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Draft minutes Message-ID: <48EBDB9F.9040107@xs4all.nl> Hello all, Draft minutes of today's conference call are available at http://peterboot.nl/tei/tcm40.html. I didn't catch everything that was said, and during the last minute or so my connection was lost. Please let me know what is missing or incorrect. One specific question: about the amber items, Lou mentioned that issue 2055864 (Remove redundant iso-* attributes) needs more work; but I don't think it was stated what has been done with the other amber issues? Or was it? If you mail me your corrections before Monday I'll ask Chris to put this on the website somewhere next week. Peter From susan.schreibman at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 03:24:42 2008 From: susan.schreibman at gmail.com (Susan Schreibman) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:24:42 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Draft minutes In-Reply-To: <48EBDB9F.9040107@xs4all.nl> References: <48EBDB9F.9040107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48EC603A.8000807@gmail.com> Sorry for not making the meeting yesterday. I noticed that nobody is assigned to the Education SIG. Also, the meeting was on 7 October 2008, not 10 October (unless I have really lost several days!). susan Peter Boot wrote: > Hello all, > > Draft minutes of today's conference call are available at > http://peterboot.nl/tei/tcm40.html. I didn't catch everything that was > said, and during the last minute or so my connection was lost. Please > let me know what is missing or incorrect. > > One specific question: about the amber items, Lou mentioned that issue > 2055864 (Remove redundant iso-* attributes) needs more work; but I don't > think it was stated what has been done with the other amber issues? Or > was it? > > If you mail me your corrections before Monday I'll ask Chris to put this > on the website somewhere next week. > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- Susan Schreibman, PhD Director Digital Humanities Observatory 28-32 Upper Pembroke Street Dublin 2 -- A project of the Royal Irish Academy -- Phone: +353 1 234 2440 Mobile: +353 86 0491966 Fax: +353 1 234 2588 Email:` Susan.Schreibman at gmail.com http://dho.ie http://irith.org http://macgreevy.org http://v-machine.org From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Oct 10 12:50:15 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:50:15 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Aaargh, someone has stolen our acronym Message-ID: <48EF87C7.4070304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> http://www.opendd.net/resources/ODD_SpecV0.6(draft).pdf From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Fri Oct 10 12:48:38 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:48:38 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Draft minutes In-Reply-To: <48EBDB9F.9040107@xs4all.nl> References: <48EBDB9F.9040107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <48EF8766.4000404@kcl.ac.uk> Hi Peter, what I understood was that: - Amber items: the only one the wasn?t done is 2055864 Arianna Peter Boot wrote: > Hello all, > > Draft minutes of today's conference call are available at > http://peterboot.nl/tei/tcm40.html. I didn't catch everything that was > said, and during the last minute or so my connection was lost. Please > let me know what is missing or incorrect. > > One specific question: about the amber items, Lou mentioned that issue > 2055864 (Remove redundant iso-* attributes) needs more work; but I don't > think it was stated what has been done with the other amber issues? Or > was it? > > If you mail me your corrections before Monday I'll ask Chris to put this > on the website somewhere next week. > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Fri Oct 10 13:22:06 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Aaargh, someone has stolen our acronym In-Reply-To: <48EF87C7.4070304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48EF87C7.4070304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Trademark dispute time? That nearly happened when Red Hat gave the name "Fedora" to their OS when Cornell and UVa were already using the term for their open-source repository. There's an (apocryphal?) story that one of the eminences grises of the computer industry, when asked a decade or so ago about the greatest problem facing the technical world, replied, "There are only 17,576 possible three-letter acronyms". (I'm back from California and beginning to look over tei-council mail from this week.) David On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Lou Burnard wrote: > http://www.opendd.net/resources/ODD_SpecV0.6(draft).pdf > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Oct 10 13:54:49 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:54:49 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Aaargh, someone has stolen our acronym In-Reply-To: <48EF87C7.4070304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48EF87C7.4070304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48EF96E9.1030308@oucs.ox.ac.uk> That's a definite problem. First thing to do is contact the author nicely. why don't you start, Lou? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Fri Oct 10 15:53:25 2008 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:53:25 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Aaargh, someone has stolen our acronym In-Reply-To: References: <48EF87C7.4070304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1223668405.29167.0.camel@odonnelld-eng> Have we trademarked ODD? We have spoken nicely to people who've used TEI. On Fri, 2008-10-10 at 13:22 -0400, David Sewell wrote: > Trademark dispute time? That nearly happened when Red Hat gave the name > "Fedora" to their OS when Cornell and UVa were already using the term > for their open-source repository. > > There's an (apocryphal?) story that one of the eminences grises of the > computer industry, when asked a decade or so ago about the greatest > problem facing the technical world, replied, "There are only 17,576 > possible three-letter acronyms". > > (I'm back from California and beginning to look over tei-council mail > from this week.) > > David > > On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Lou Burnard wrote: > > > http://www.opendd.net/resources/ODD_SpecV0.6(draft).pdf > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > -- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Oct 11 06:54:08 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:54:08 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Re: another ODD] Message-ID: <48F085D0.1090805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Hmmm. So that's all right then. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: another ODD Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:39:24 +0100 From: Marcus Povey Organisation: Curverider Ltd To: Lou Burnard References: <48EFAEDD.5030302 at oucs.ox.ac.uk> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Lou, Thanks for getting in touch. Although we have used ODD in a number of early articles the official term we are using now is OpenDD. This is to avoid the problems with three letter acronyms you've mentioned. While some people are using the term "ODD" - generally for comic effect - - this is not the official term we sanction. Marcus Lou Burnard wrote: > Since about 1991, we've been using the acronym ODD to refer to a > document format, originally expressed in SGML and more recently > expressed in XML, which combines the specification of user-documentation > and schema generation in a single document -- One Document Does it all. > We even have an entry in Wikipedia > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ODD_(One_Document_Does_it_all) which gives > quite a few references if you want to follow them up (I recommend the > one called "RelaxNG with Son of ODD" because it's such a nice title) and > the term is pretty well established in the XML markup community. Today I > came across your use of the same acronym to describe your proposed "Open > Data Definition" for exchange of personal data and thought I'd just > register my concern about the likely confusion this might cause. Fair > enough, the same acronym is also commonly used (Mr Google tells me) for > something called Oppositional Defiant Disorder, but that's not (yet) a > commonly used XML vocabulary. And, as we all know, the biggest > challenge facing technology today is that there are only 17576 possible > three letter acronyms, so collisions like this are bound to happen! > Nevertheless, I hope you won't mind my asking if it's too late for you > to reconsider this usage, in the interest of avoiding needless confusion? > > best wishes > > Lou Burnard > Text Encoding Initiative > > - -- Marcus Povey : Senior Developer : Curverider Ltd W: http://www.marcus-povey.co.uk E: marcus at elgg.com : T: +44 (0)7824 533 666 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFI8IJcN0jMsqaPtisRApL2AJ4vX2NFvUJvRjWTN/SRUOHKY9Q8DQCfedcF ewALH0570WPw56ffmyHp3/o= =vnPx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Oct 12 08:53:16 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 13:53:16 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] another ODD In-Reply-To: <48F0825C.6000508@elgg.com> References: <48EFAEDD.5030302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48F0825C.6000508@elgg.com> Message-ID: <48F1F33C.9000001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Hi Marcus Thanks for the quick reassurance. However, I note that "ODD" is used throughout the most recent (July 2008, v 0.6) version of the Open DD specification, not least as the root element of an openDD document, which does not quite confirm your statement below. I find the phrase "ODD document" and "ODD file" throughout that version of the document. I also note that it proposes using "odd+xml" as a mimetype value, which really is potentially confusing, as we think it likely that people will want to use this also for TEI ODD documents. I look forward to version 0.7... best wishes Lou Marcus Povey wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi Lou, > > Thanks for getting in touch. > > Although we have used ODD in a number of early articles the official > term we are using now is OpenDD. This is to avoid the problems with > three letter acronyms you've mentioned. > > While some people are using the term "ODD" - generally for comic effect > - - this is not the official term we sanction. > > Marcus > > Lou Burnard wrote: > >> Since about 1991, we've been using the acronym ODD to refer to a >> document format, originally expressed in SGML and more recently >> expressed in XML, which combines the specification of user-documentation >> and schema generation in a single document -- One Document Does it all. >> We even have an entry in Wikipedia >> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ODD_(One_Document_Does_it_all) which gives >> quite a few references if you want to follow them up (I recommend the >> one called "RelaxNG with Son of ODD" because it's such a nice title) and >> the term is pretty well established in the XML markup community. Today I >> came across your use of the same acronym to describe your proposed "Open >> Data Definition" for exchange of personal data and thought I'd just >> register my concern about the likely confusion this might cause. Fair >> enough, the same acronym is also commonly used (Mr Google tells me) for >> something called Oppositional Defiant Disorder, but that's not (yet) a >> commonly used XML vocabulary. And, as we all know, the biggest >> challenge facing technology today is that there are only 17576 possible >> three letter acronyms, so collisions like this are bound to happen! >> Nevertheless, I hope you won't mind my asking if it's too late for you >> to reconsider this usage, in the interest of avoiding needless confusion? >> >> best wishes >> >> Lou Burnard >> Text Encoding Initiative >> >> >> > > > - -- > Marcus Povey : Senior Developer : Curverider Ltd > W: http://www.marcus-povey.co.uk > E: marcus at elgg.com : T: +44 (0)7824 533 666 > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFI8IJcN0jMsqaPtisRApL2AJ4vX2NFvUJvRjWTN/SRUOHKY9Q8DQCfedcF > ewALH0570WPw56ffmyHp3/o= > =vnPx > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Oct 12 17:29:24 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:29:24 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] more class rationalizations Message-ID: <48F26C34.9040808@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I'd be very grateful for comments from council members on whether or not to press ahead with the minor tweak proposed in SF bug #2161974 Text of this bug says: " The members of att.segLike (cl, c, m, phr, seg, s, w) all inherit their @type attribute from that class, rather than from att.typed. Consequently they don't behave like other typed attributes, which inherit this attribute from att.typed. Thus most of them don't have a @subtype attribute (except for seg, which adds it explicitly) This seems confusing and inconsistent. I propose to remove the @type attribute from att.segLike, remove @subtype from seg, and add all these elements to the att.typed class.(Another solution might be to make att.segLike a child of att.typed, but I prefer the more explicit one suggested here)" Can anyone suggest a good reason not to do this? From jawalsh at indiana.edu Sun Oct 12 17:46:32 2008 From: jawalsh at indiana.edu (John A. Walsh) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 17:46:32 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] more class rationalizations In-Reply-To: <48F26C34.9040808@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48F26C34.9040808@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: I am definitely in favor of the change proposed below. -john -- | John A. Walsh | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | www: | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 On Oct 12, 2008, at 5:29 PM, Lou's Laptop wrote: > I'd be very grateful for comments from council members on whether or > not > to press ahead with the minor tweak proposed in SF bug #2161974 > > Text of this bug says: " > > The members of att.segLike (cl, c, m, phr, seg, s, w) all inherit > their > @type attribute from that class, rather than from att.typed. > Consequently > they don't behave like other typed attributes, which inherit this > attribute from att.typed. Thus most of them don't have a @subtype > attribute (except for seg, which adds it explicitly) This seems > confusing and inconsistent. I propose to remove the @type attribute > from > att.segLike, remove @subtype from seg, and add all these elements to > the > att.typed class.(Another solution might be to make att.segLike a child > of att.typed, but I prefer the more > explicit one suggested here)" > > > Can anyone suggest a good reason not to do this? > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From laurent.romary at loria.fr Mon Oct 13 01:48:38 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (laurent.romary at loria.fr) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 07:48:38 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] more class rationalizations In-Reply-To: <48F26C34.9040808@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48F26C34.9040808@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20081013074838.l573r0j80csck80w@webmail.loria.fr> I am just amazed that we still have such a legacy situation... It is a clear go-ahead from me! Lou's Laptop a ?crit?: > I'd be very grateful for comments from council members on whether or not > to press ahead with the minor tweak proposed in SF bug #2161974 > > Text of this bug says: " > > The members of att.segLike (cl, c, m, phr, seg, s, w) all inherit their > @type attribute from that class, rather than from att.typed. Consequently > they don't behave like other typed attributes, which inherit this > attribute from att.typed. Thus most of them don't have a @subtype > attribute (except for seg, which adds it explicitly) This seems > confusing and inconsistent. I propose to remove the @type attribute from > att.segLike, remove @subtype from seg, and add all these elements to the > att.typed class.(Another solution might be to make att.segLike a child > of att.typed, but I prefer the more > explicit one suggested here)" > > > Can anyone suggest a good reason not to do this? > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Mon Oct 13 05:16:34 2008 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:16:34 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] more class rationalizations In-Reply-To: <20081013074838.l573r0j80csck80w@webmail.loria.fr> References: <48F26C34.9040808@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20081013074838.l573r0j80csck80w@webmail.loria.fr> Message-ID: <48F311F2.1010605@kcl.ac.uk> Agree. Arianna laurent.romary at loria.fr wrote: > I am just amazed that we still have such a legacy situation... > > It is a clear go-ahead from me! > > Lou's Laptop a ?crit : > >> I'd be very grateful for comments from council members on whether or not >> to press ahead with the minor tweak proposed in SF bug #2161974 >> >> Text of this bug says: " >> >> The members of att.segLike (cl, c, m, phr, seg, s, w) all inherit their >> @type attribute from that class, rather than from att.typed. Consequently >> they don't behave like other typed attributes, which inherit this >> attribute from att.typed. Thus most of them don't have a @subtype >> attribute (except for seg, which adds it explicitly) This seems >> confusing and inconsistent. I propose to remove the @type attribute from >> att.segLike, remove @subtype from seg, and add all these elements to the >> att.typed class.(Another solution might be to make att.segLike a child >> of att.typed, but I prefer the more >> explicit one suggested here)" >> >> >> Can anyone suggest a good reason not to do this? >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 2nd Floor 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Oct 13 06:18:49 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 11:18:49 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] more class rationalizations In-Reply-To: <48F311F2.1010605@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48F26C34.9040808@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <20081013074838.l573r0j80csck80w@webmail.loria.fr> <48F311F2.1010605@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48F32089.20705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> What they all said. ;-) Seriously though, the customisation of @type on att.segLike is primarily to provide the following descriptive text isn't it? "For a cl may take values such as finite, nonfinite, declarative, interrogative, relative etc. For a phr or w, values such as noun, verb, preposition, etc., may be used. For an m element, values such as clitic, prefix, stem will be more appropriate. For a c element, values such as letter, punctuation, digit may be used." Can we preserve this helpful text in association with @type on these elements? However, anywhere we have @typed it just makes sense to have @subtype to me. According to: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/REF-ATTS.html @subtype is only available on att.typed elements and seg. (which will be just att.typed elements after you've made this change). @type on the other hand is available on: att.entryLike att.interpLike att.pointing att.segLike att.textCritical att.typed abbr app biblScope castItem classSpec constitution derivation dimensions distinct divGen domain factuality forest forestGrp form fs fsDecl fsdLink fw geogName gram graph iType idno interaction lbl list macroSpec measure metDecl moduleSpec move node note num oRef oVar orth preparedness purpose q recording relation sound stage tag tech teiHeader title titlePage titlePart usg valList witDetail xr Now, I know some of these are because we provide a suggested value list or similar for the @type on that element. Are there any that could just be rolled into having att.typed instead? Or is the problem that hoary chestnut of wanting to be able to provide att.typed but then override the value list, or descriptive text only for a particular element's definition? (Something I'd see as a good thing if possible.) Of the above list those where we *don't* provide a list of suggested or required values (but often do change the descriptive text about what @type means) and potentially could just use att.typed in my mind include: att.pointing, att.segLike (@type to be removed), app, distinct, forest, forestGrp, fs[1], fsDecl, fsdLink, geogName, idno, lbl, measure, moduleSpec[2], note, orth, sound, titlePage, and witDetail. For none of these do we provide suggested or required values delineated in the ODD. In some cases we do so in the descriptive prose that accompanies this attribute. e.g. titlePage/@type has: "Any string, e.g. full, half, Series, etc." But this kind of vague suggestion is also made on others where we actually provide a value list. I simply mention this if it is of any help in deciding whether these other elements should be made members of att.typed or in kick starting discussions about the revising of ODD. -James [1] http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/en/html/ref-fs.html the suggested value for @type in this instance is wrong because it contains whitespace! [2] "A closed set of keywords yet to be defined" is not very helpful! Arianna Ciula wrote: > Agree. > > Arianna > > laurent.romary at loria.fr wrote: >> I am just amazed that we still have such a legacy situation... >> >> It is a clear go-ahead from me! >> >> Lou's Laptop a ?crit : >> >>> I'd be very grateful for comments from council members on whether or not >>> to press ahead with the minor tweak proposed in SF bug #2161974 >>> >>> Text of this bug says: " >>> >>> The members of att.segLike (cl, c, m, phr, seg, s, w) all inherit their >>> @type attribute from that class, rather than from att.typed. Consequently >>> they don't behave like other typed attributes, which inherit this >>> attribute from att.typed. Thus most of them don't have a @subtype >>> attribute (except for seg, which adds it explicitly) This seems >>> confusing and inconsistent. I propose to remove the @type attribute from >>> att.segLike, remove @subtype from seg, and add all these elements to the >>> att.typed class.(Another solution might be to make att.segLike a child >>> of att.typed, but I prefer the more >>> explicit one suggested here)" >>> >>> >>> Can anyone suggest a good reason not to do this? >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> tei-council mailing list >>> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Oct 13 10:11:16 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:11:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Draft minutes In-Reply-To: <48EF8766.4000404@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48EBDB9F.9040107@xs4all.nl> <48EF8766.4000404@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: This was an action item for me, in conjunction with Syd Bauman. I will get on it, and will plan to have a proposal for consideration within a week. David On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Arianna Ciula wrote: > Hi Peter, > > what I understood was that: > > - Amber items: the only one the wasn?t done is 2055864 > > Arianna > > Peter Boot wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > Draft minutes of today's conference call are available at > > http://peterboot.nl/tei/tcm40.html. I didn't catch everything that was > > said, and during the last minute or so my connection was lost. Please > > let me know what is missing or incorrect. > > > > One specific question: about the amber items, Lou mentioned that issue > > 2055864 (Remove redundant iso-* attributes) needs more work; but I don't > > think it was stated what has been done with the other amber issues? Or > > was it? > > > > If you mail me your corrections before Monday I'll ask Chris to put this > > on the website somewhere next week. > > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > > tei-council mailing list > > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > -- > Dr Arianna Ciula > Research Associate > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 2nd Floor > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL (UK) > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 > http://staff.cch.kcl.ac.uk/~aciula/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Oct 16 07:33:47 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:33:47 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Pizza chef not accepting modification files? References: <48F70BB2.5080301@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: Without any prejudice concerning the appropriate answer, I would suggest to have this put on our discussion agenda. Any view? Laurent D?but du message r?exp?di? : > De : Gabriel Bodard > Date : 16 octobre 2008 11:38:58 GMT+02:00 > ? : TEI-L at listserv.brown.edu > Objet : R?p : Pizza chef not accepting modification files? > R?pondre ? : Gabriel Bodard > > I have had the same problem for some months now, and have been hand- > hacking our (soon to be obsolete) P4 DTD as a result. It is my > understanding from past exchanges on this list that support for > Pizza Chef is no longer a priority, and rather than troubleshooting > it, the response is likely to be, "You should just learn to use Roma > to generate your DTD" (or, even better, generate a P5 schema). > > G > > Brett Barney a ?crit : >> All, >> Wanting to troubleshoot an issue with our P4 dtd, I just now tried >> to regenerate it via the pizza chef. Although a dtd is generated >> without complaint, it seems to be ignorant of the modification >> files I've specifed. Does anyone have thoughts about what I might >> be doing wrong? >> Thanks, >> Brett >> ------------------ >> Brett Barney >> Research Assistant Professor >> Center for Digital Research in the Humanities >> University of Nebraska-Lincoln >> bbarney2 at unl.edu >> http://cdrh.unl.edu > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) > > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From jawalsh at indiana.edu Thu Oct 16 08:25:18 2008 From: jawalsh at indiana.edu (John A. Walsh) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:25:18 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Pizza chef not accepting modification files? In-Reply-To: References: <48F70BB2.5080301@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4EACF300-4386-49FF-B6F0-5ED05ED6A6AC@indiana.edu> I agree. A sort of related item that I think should also go on the agenda is a platform-independent TEI build process and platform- independent command-line Roma. The build issue has been discussed on sourceforge as a feature request. John -- | John A. Walsh, Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | www: | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 On Oct 16, 2008, at 7:33 AM, Laurent Romary wrote: > Without any prejudice concerning the appropriate answer, I would > suggest to have this put on our discussion agenda. > Any view? > Laurent > > D?but du message r?exp?di? : > >> De : Gabriel Bodard >> Date : 16 octobre 2008 11:38:58 GMT+02:00 >> ? : TEI-L at listserv.brown.edu >> Objet : R?p : Pizza chef not accepting modification files? >> R?pondre ? : Gabriel Bodard >> >> I have had the same problem for some months now, and have been hand- >> hacking our (soon to be obsolete) P4 DTD as a result. It is my >> understanding from past exchanges on this list that support for >> Pizza Chef is no longer a priority, and rather than troubleshooting >> it, the response is likely to be, "You should just learn to use Roma >> to generate your DTD" (or, even better, generate a P5 schema). >> >> G >> >> Brett Barney a ?crit : >>> All, >>> Wanting to troubleshoot an issue with our P4 dtd, I just now tried >>> to regenerate it via the pizza chef. Although a dtd is generated >>> without complaint, it seems to be ignorant of the modification >>> files I've specifed. Does anyone have thoughts about what I might >>> be doing wrong? >>> Thanks, >>> Brett >>> ------------------ >>> Brett Barney >>> Research Assistant Professor >>> Center for Digital Research in the Humanities >>> University of Nebraska-Lincoln >>> bbarney2 at unl.edu >>> http://cdrh.unl.edu >> >> -- >> Dr Gabriel BODARD >> (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) >> >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities >> King's College London >> 26-29 Drury Lane >> London WC2B 5RL >> Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk >> Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 >> Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 >> >> http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ >> http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Oct 16 08:41:52 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:41:52 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Pizza chef not accepting modification files? In-Reply-To: <4EACF300-4386-49FF-B6F0-5ED05ED6A6AC@indiana.edu> References: <48F70BB2.5080301@kcl.ac.uk> <4EACF300-4386-49FF-B6F0-5ED05ED6A6AC@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <48F73690.3090508@oucs.ox.ac.uk> John A. Walsh wrote: > I agree. A sort of related item that I think should also go on the > agenda is a platform-independent TEI build process what did you have in mind here? an ant script? I can maybe ask Arno to look at this. > and platform- > independent command-line Roma. "platform-independent command-line"? wassat? I suppose a local Roma script in Java is not that hard, though beyond me. is that what you mean? > The build issue has been discussed on > sourceforge as a feature request. If we had any resources, I'd say a rewrite of Roma is higher priority..... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Oct 16 08:43:43 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:43:43 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Pizza chef not accepting modification files? In-Reply-To: References: <48F70BB2.5080301@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48F736FF.8040805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> someone remind me, where does this pizza chef run now? why has it stopped working? SFAIK, the underlying program (carthago) and the Perl CGI script are unchanged for 5 years or so, so its surprising it has partially broken. It may be a hosting issue, like uploads not being accepted? -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From jawalsh at indiana.edu Thu Oct 16 09:13:35 2008 From: jawalsh at indiana.edu (John A. Walsh) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:13:35 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Pizza chef not accepting modification files? In-Reply-To: <48F73690.3090508@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48F70BB2.5080301@kcl.ac.uk> <4EACF300-4386-49FF-B6F0-5ED05ED6A6AC@indiana.edu> <48F73690.3090508@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: Sebastian, I was thinking ant, which was one of the suggestions in sourceforge. I believe the "command-line roma" could also be implemented as an ant script, since it's largely a bunch of XSLT. But we could provide a package with a lib directory--with trang, and jing, and all the libraries we need, so people wouldn't have to fiddle about with that stuff. I have the command-line Roma running on my OS X machine, but I recall it being a real pain in the ass to get working. I understand resources are an issue. So I think it's a good agenda item to discuss and see where these fall in the priority list. John -- | John A. Walsh, Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | www: | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 On Oct 16, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > John A. Walsh wrote: >> I agree. A sort of related item that I think should also go on >> the agenda is a platform-independent TEI build process > > what did you have in mind here? an ant script? > > I can maybe ask Arno to look at this. > >> and platform- independent command-line Roma. > > "platform-independent command-line"? wassat? > > I suppose a local Roma script in Java is not that hard, > though beyond me. is that what you mean? > >> The build issue has been discussed on sourceforge as a feature >> request. > > If we had any resources, I'd say a rewrite of Roma > is higher priority..... > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > From dsewell at virginia.edu Thu Oct 16 15:45:05 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 15:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Pizza chef not accepting modification files? In-Reply-To: References: <48F70BB2.5080301@kcl.ac.uk> <4EACF300-4386-49FF-B6F0-5ED05ED6A6AC@indiana.edu> <48F73690.3090508@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: I agree about the difficulty of getting command-line roma to work properly. On the other hand, we have to balance the convenience we'd be providing to the people who use it against the time it takes to create and maintain packages. The Web-based Roma has higher visibility and is no doubt used by an least an order of magnitude more people. David On Thu, 16 Oct 2008, John A. Walsh wrote: > Sebastian, > > I was thinking ant, which was one of the suggestions in sourceforge. > > I believe the "command-line roma" could also be implemented as an ant > script, since it's largely a bunch of XSLT. But we could provide a > package with a lib directory--with trang, and jing, and all the > libraries we need, so people wouldn't have to fiddle about with that > stuff. I have the command-line Roma running on my OS X machine, but I > recall it being a real pain in the ass to get working. I understand > resources are an issue. So I think it's a good agenda item to discuss > and see where these fall in the priority list. > > John > -- > | John A. Walsh, Assistant Professor, School of Library and > Information Science > | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 > | www: > | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 > > > > > On Oct 16, 2008, at 8:41 AM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > > > John A. Walsh wrote: > >> I agree. A sort of related item that I think should also go on > >> the agenda is a platform-independent TEI build process > > > > what did you have in mind here? an ant script? > > > > I can maybe ask Arno to look at this. > > > >> and platform- independent command-line Roma. > > > > "platform-independent command-line"? wassat? > > > > I suppose a local Roma script in Java is not that hard, > > though beyond me. is that what you mean? > > > >> The build issue has been discussed on sourceforge as a feature > >> request. > > > > If we had any resources, I'd say a rewrite of Roma > > is higher priority..... > > > > -- > > Sebastian Rahtz > > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Oct 16 16:59:27 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 21:59:27 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Pizza chef not accepting modification files? In-Reply-To: References: <48F70BB2.5080301@kcl.ac.uk> <4EACF300-4386-49FF-B6F0-5ED05ED6A6AC@indiana.edu> <48F73690.3090508@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48F7AB2F.80705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> John A. Walsh wrote: > > I was thinking ant, which was one of the suggestions in sourceforge. > I'm not against the idea, but frankly its a low priority for me, unless the council tells me otherwise. > I believe the "command-line roma" could also be implemented as an ant > script, since it's largely a bunch of XSLT. But we could provide a > package with a lib directory--with trang, and jing, and all the > libraries we need, so people wouldn't have to fiddle about with that > stuff. ingenious idea, but that means folk knowing what a command line is, and how to type "ant". I'm keener on the little Java app, to be honest. > I have the command-line Roma running on my OS X machine, but I > recall it being a real pain in the ass to get working. took me about 10 minutes to get working under OS X, but then I know it rather well :-} In fact the entire P5 foodchain is working for me under OS X, fwiw. > I understand > resources are an issue. So I think it's a good agenda item to discuss > and see where these fall in the priority list. yes, agreed -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Fri Oct 17 06:50:36 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 11:50:36 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Pizza chef not accepting modification files? In-Reply-To: <48F736FF.8040805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48F70BB2.5080301@kcl.ac.uk> <48F736FF.8040805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48F86DFC.1040304@kcl.ac.uk> We have all of the Pizza modification files for our DTD in SourceForge SVN, so it should be easy to track-back and find out when they stopped working (if it were our fault), or at any rate roughly date when it stopped working (if it's the chef's). I ought to do a bit of playing about with this, but I'm not sure I'll have time to get to it today. I'll let Sebastian and Lou know when I have an answer to this question. (If any one wants to mess around with it themselves, the files in question are tei-epidoc-ext.dtd and tei-epidoc-ext.ent at http://epidoc.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/epidoc/trunk/dtd/ ) G Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > someone remind me, where does this pizza chef run now? > why has it stopped working? SFAIK, the underlying > program (carthago) and the Perl CGI script are unchanged > for 5 years or so, so its surprising it has partially > broken. It may be a hosting issue, like uploads not > being accepted? > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Fri Oct 17 10:21:26 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:21:26 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Pizza chef not accepting modification files? In-Reply-To: <48F86DFC.1040304@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48F70BB2.5080301@kcl.ac.uk> <48F736FF.8040805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48F86DFC.1040304@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48F89F66.9080407@kcl.ac.uk> Well this is just weird. I've rolled back our SVN to half a dozen different places in the past two years, tested the Pizza Chef with the files we used then (clearly *exactly* as we used them then) and they now seem to work just fine, even ones that haven't been working ever since May 2008 (since when I'd been unable to get any recognition of hand-edited modification files at all until today). Even weirder, however: (1) Ever since February 2008 (and possibly earlier, that's the first time I noted it in a comment), Pizza Chef was adding a stray ` (grave accent) somewhere in the middle of the entity sets in the DTD output. This no longer happens. (2) Ever since about a year ago (I have no record of the first time I tried this) the Chef would barf on me if I tried to load up *any* modification files if I had no entity sets declared. This was the only reason I did not eliminate entity sets from our DTD a year ago. This now, needless to say, no longer happens. (3) When I tried to run our modification files from revision 842 (dated 2008-02-03), which worked just fine at the time, I now get a fatal error. Just for the record, has anyone been messing about with this code since we spoke yesterday? :-| G Gabriel Bodard a ?crit : > We have all of the Pizza modification files for our DTD in SourceForge > SVN, so it should be easy to track-back and find out when they stopped > working (if it were our fault), or at any rate roughly date when it > stopped working (if it's the chef's). I ought to do a bit of playing > about with this, but I'm not sure I'll have time to get to it today. > I'll let Sebastian and Lou know when I have an answer to this question. > > (If any one wants to mess around with it themselves, the files in > question are tei-epidoc-ext.dtd and tei-epidoc-ext.ent at > http://epidoc.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/epidoc/trunk/dtd/ ) > > G > > Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : >> someone remind me, where does this pizza chef run now? >> why has it stopped working? SFAIK, the underlying >> program (carthago) and the Perl CGI script are unchanged >> for 5 years or so, so its surprising it has partially >> broken. It may be a hosting issue, like uploads not >> being accepted? >> >> -- >> Sebastian Rahtz >> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services >> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > -- > Dr Gabriel BODARD > (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) > > Centre for Computing in the Humanities > King's College London > 26-29 Drury Lane > London WC2B 5RL > Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk > Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 > Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 > > http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ > http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Oct 17 10:27:15 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:27:15 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Pizza chef not accepting modification files? In-Reply-To: <48F89F66.9080407@kcl.ac.uk> References: <48F70BB2.5080301@kcl.ac.uk> <48F736FF.8040805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48F86DFC.1040304@kcl.ac.uk> <48F89F66.9080407@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48F8A0C3.8020306@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Gabriel Bodard wrote: > > Just for the record, has anyone been messing about with this code since > we spoke yesterday? :-| to the best of my knowledge, only 3 people have the power, and none of them has said they were looking at it. I am not sure what to suggest..... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Fri Oct 17 10:41:44 2008 From: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk (Gabriel Bodard) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:41:44 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Fwd: Pizza chef not accepting modification files? In-Reply-To: <48F8A0C3.8020306@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <48F70BB2.5080301@kcl.ac.uk> <48F736FF.8040805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48F86DFC.1040304@kcl.ac.uk> <48F89F66.9080407@kcl.ac.uk> <48F8A0C3.8020306@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48F8A428.6070509@kcl.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > to the best of my knowledge, only 3 people have the > power, and none of them has said they were looking at it. I didn't really think so; I was just expressing my quizzicism at everything suddenly having gotten better. (It was never an intermittent problem before...) -- Dr Gabriel BODARD (Epigrapher & Digital Classicist) Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Email: gabriel.bodard at kcl.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)20 7848 1388 Fax: +44 (0)20 7848 2980 http://www.digitalclassicist.org/ http://www.currentepigraphy.org/ From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Oct 22 11:13:08 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] update on "Remove redundant iso-* attributes" Message-ID: Just a followup on my action item connected with SF tracker #2055864: http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2055864&group_id=106328&atid=644065 I'm corresponding with Syd Bauman on this to see if we can agree on a recommendation to bring back to Council for discussion. The query I posted to TEI-L today about date arithmetic is tangentially connected with this issue, as anyone working with BCE dates needs to be aware of the potential pitfalls in using the W3C datatype representations (something we allude to in the Guidelines in ref-att.datable.w3c.xml). David -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Oct 22 11:46:54 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:46:54 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Internationalisation - two issues Message-ID: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> Dear (Seb in particular :-}), As I was trying to figure out the best strategy with regards the thread, I came across the problem/issue/feature? that googling the TEI now points randomly to any page in whatever language. For instance "addspan tei p5" yields the following sequence of results: www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/ja/html/ref-addSpan.html www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/REF-ELEMENTS.html tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/zh-tw/html/ref-addSpan.html tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/it/html/CO.html and that's all! (I mean links to our own documentations). The issues at hand are: - the English pages do not appear - the refs are randomly pointing to the tei-c page and the tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk A second problem I discovered while toying with the pages is that you cannot switch from one language to another for the same content. For instance, from: www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/ja/html/ref-addSpan.html you come to the list of elements if you click on any language at the bottom of the page instead of pointing to the translation of the page. Is there a way to do something about this? Best, Laurent From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Oct 22 12:22:35 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:22:35 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Internationalisation - two issues In-Reply-To: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> References: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48FF534B.9010107@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Hi Laurent, I've tried googling on .com .co.uk .fr and .de for 'addspan tei p5' and in all cases The first hit is the english one at: http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-addSpan.html I double-checked my search preferences and I have 'Search for pages written in any language' rather than English or something specified. Can you confirm how you are googling for this (i.e. what site, what search preferences?) However, it does make me realise that we have no good search mechanism on the site. We could do customised google searches fairly easily for each of the language versions of the guidelines, couldn't we? Or a search page which allowed options of the entire TEI-C site, the P5 Guidelines (in whatever languages), etc. Best, -James Laurent Romary wrote: > Dear (Seb in particular :-}), > As I was trying to figure out the best strategy with regards the > thread, I came across the problem/issue/feature? that > googling the TEI now points randomly to any page in whatever language. > For instance "addspan tei p5" yields the following sequence of results: > www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/ja/html/ref-addSpan.html > www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/REF-ELEMENTS.html > tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/zh-tw/html/ref-addSpan.html > tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/it/html/CO.html > and that's all! (I mean links to our own documentations). > > The issues at hand are: > - the English pages do not appear > - the refs are randomly pointing to the tei-c page and the > tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk > > A second problem I discovered while toying with the pages is that you > cannot switch from one language to another for the same content. For > instance, from: > www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/ja/html/ref-addSpan.html > you come to the list of elements if you click on any language at the > bottom of the page instead of pointing to the translation of the page. > > Is there a way to do something about this? > Best, > Laurent > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Oct 22 12:32:45 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:32:45 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Internationalisation - two issues In-Reply-To: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> References: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48FF55AD.4080309@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > As I was trying to figure out the best strategy with regards the > thread, I came across the problem/issue/feature? that > googling the TEI now points randomly to any page in whatever language. > For instance "addspan tei p5" yields the following sequence of results: > www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/ja/html/ref-addSpan.html > www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/REF-ELEMENTS.html > tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/zh-tw/html/ref-addSpan.html > tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/it/html/CO.html > and that's all! (I mean links to our own documentations). > > The issues at hand are: > - the English pages do not appear > - the refs are randomly pointing to the tei-c page and the > tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk > hmm. I will tell tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk not to respond to Google. How to get the English ones to the top I am unsure > A second problem I discovered while toying with the pages is that you > cannot switch from one language to another for the same content. For > instance, from: > www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/ja/html/ref-addSpan.html > you come to the list of elements if you click on any language at the > bottom of the page instead of pointing to the translation of the page. > > Is there a way to do something about this that one is solvable. I may or may not be able to fix it before the next release. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Oct 22 12:35:55 2008 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:35:55 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Internationalisation - two issues In-Reply-To: <48FF55AD.4080309@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> <48FF55AD.4080309@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48FF566B.7000207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Sebastian Rahtz wrote: > hmm. I will tell tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk not to respond > to Google. Only for some things please! We *want* tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Oxford/ and /ENRICH/ etc. to be indexed... dont we? > How to get the English ones to the top I am unsure they are when I search...what am I doing different? -James -- Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Oct 22 12:40:19 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:40:19 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Internationalisation - two issues In-Reply-To: <48FF566B.7000207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> <48FF55AD.4080309@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48FF566B.7000207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48FF5773.2000501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> James Cummings wrote: >> hmm. I will tell tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk not to respond >> to Google. > > Only for some things please! We *want* tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Oxford/ and > /ENRICH/ etc. to be indexed... dont we? yes, natch -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Oct 22 12:48:33 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 18:48:33 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Internationalisation - two issues In-Reply-To: <48FF534B.9010107@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> <48FF534B.9010107@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <9832EC9F-59D3-4503-98AD-4F6B6B86A527@loria.fr> That's weird. When I search on pages in English (advanced search) for "addspan tei p5" I keep getting the same Japanese and Chinese reasults (plus a ref to http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/it/html/CO.html ; don't ask me). I am using the defaults parameters, I swear (see attached screen copy in an another message). Is there a way to master this? I would not necessarily want a search machine on our web site, since I know I am not the only one to access the guidelines by means of the general Google search... Le 22 oct. 08 ? 18:22, James Cummings a ?crit : > Hi Laurent, > > I've tried googling on .com .co.uk .fr and .de for 'addspan tei p5' > and in all cases The first hit is the english one at: > > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-addSpan.html > > I double-checked my search preferences and I have 'Search for pages > written in any language' rather than English or something specified. > > Can you confirm how you are googling for this (i.e. what site, what > search preferences?) > > However, it does make me realise that we have no good search > mechanism on the site. We could do customised google searches > fairly easily for each of the language versions of the guidelines, > couldn't we? Or a search page which allowed options of the entire > TEI-C site, the P5 Guidelines (in whatever languages), etc. > > Best, > -James > > > Laurent Romary wrote: >> Dear (Seb in particular :-}), >> As I was trying to figure out the best strategy with regards the >> thread, I came across the problem/issue/feature? that >> googling the TEI now points randomly to any page in whatever >> language. For instance "addspan tei p5" yields the following >> sequence of results: >> www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/ja/html/ref-addSpan.html >> www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/REF-ELEMENTS.html >> tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/zh-tw/html/ref-addSpan.html >> tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/Guidelines-web/it/html/CO.html >> and that's all! (I mean links to our own documentations). >> The issues at hand are: >> - the English pages do not appear >> - the refs are randomly pointing to the tei-c page and the >> tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk >> A second problem I discovered while toying with the pages is that >> you cannot switch from one language to another for the same >> content. For instance, from: >> www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/ja/html/ref-addSpan.html >> you come to the list of elements if you click on any language at >> the bottom of the page instead of pointing to the translation of >> the page. >> Is there a way to do something about this? >> Best, >> Laurent >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > > > -- > Dr James Cummings, Research Technologies Service, University of Oxford > James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Oct 22 14:14:39 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:14:39 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Internationalisation - two issues In-Reply-To: <9832EC9F-59D3-4503-98AD-4F6B6B86A527@loria.fr> References: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> <48FF534B.9010107@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <9832EC9F-59D3-4503-98AD-4F6B6B86A527@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48FF6D8F.5040200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> one thing i am going to try is putting another lang attribute in. what else does Google use to determine language. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk Wed Oct 22 14:22:26 2008 From: elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk (Elena Pierazzo) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:22:26 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Update on Message-ID: Dear all, I've been working on the (SF 2002418) https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=2002418&group_id=106328&atid=644065 I think that we need some form of discussion on the topic as I'm personally not completely convinced by the form of the proposal. I've added to the issue my comments and my alternative proposals and I will follow up with the proponents to discuss the issue. Best, Elena -- Dr Elena Pierazzo Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London 26-29 Drury Lane London WC2B 5RL Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 elena.pierazzo at kcl.ac.uk www.kcl.ac.uk From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Oct 22 14:24:04 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:24:04 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] Internationalisation - two issues In-Reply-To: <48FF6D8F.5040200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> <48FF534B.9010107@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <9832EC9F-59D3-4503-98AD-4F6B6B86A527@loria.fr> <48FF6D8F.5040200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48248850-DEC4-4ABA-8C9C-69C3BCC13F05@loria.fr> Tja. http://www.google.com/help/faq.html is not of much use, and http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/12106.htm is not making me optimistic. Sebastian, could you try to contact Google directly to ask about the best procedure? Le 22 oct. 08 ? 20:14, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit : > one thing i am going to try is putting another lang attribute > in. what else does Google use to determine language. > > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Oct 22 14:30:16 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:30:16 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Internationalisation - two issues In-Reply-To: <48248850-DEC4-4ABA-8C9C-69C3BCC13F05@loria.fr> References: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> <48FF534B.9010107@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <9832EC9F-59D3-4503-98AD-4F6B6B86A527@loria.fr> <48FF6D8F.5040200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48248850-DEC4-4ABA-8C9C-69C3BCC13F05@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48FF7138.4010600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Laurent Romary wrote: > Tja. http://www.google.com/help/faq.html is not of much use, and > http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/12106.htm is not making me optimistic. worth a try, though. I'll see if I can get this done later tonight. the more clues the better in the file. I _could_ make the non-english files tell google not to index them. > Sebastian, could you try to contact Google directly to ask about the > best procedure? > you jest. Google do not reply to email... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From dsewell at virginia.edu Wed Oct 22 17:05:04 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:05:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Web search for tei-c.org (Was: Re: Internationalisation - two issues) In-Reply-To: <48FF534B.9010107@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> <48FF534B.9010107@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, James Cummings wrote: > However, it does make me realise that we have no good search mechanism > on the site. We could do customised google searches fairly easily for > each of the language versions of the guidelines, couldn't we? Or a > search page which allowed options of the entire TEI-C site, the P5 > Guidelines (in whatever languages), etc. How easy is it with Google Custom Search to customize things such as subsections, output style, etc.? Here at U of Virginia Press we have just subscribed to a low-cost ad-free Web search service, Freefind.com (their free version includes ads) to index the online version of a book. Take a look at http://gde.upress.virginia.edu/00C-gde.html using username "tei-c", password "tei-c" (will be valid only for a couple of days as this email is getting archived). Search for example on "facsimile" or "TEI". When setting up a search interface for a site, there are lots of options to control result format, indexing, subsections, etc. http://gde.upress.virginia.edu/00C-gde.html using username "tei-c", password "tei-c" (will be valid only for a couple of days as this email is getting archived). Search for example on "facsimile" or "TEI". When setting up a search interface for a site, there are lots of options to control result format, indexing, subsections, etc. Another nice feature is that Freefind spiders the site when you ask it to, not (like Google) when it feels like it. An ad-free subscription indexing up to 25,000 pages is US$19/month. Worth considering for www.tei-c.org? -- David Sewell, Editorial and Technical Manager ROTUNDA, The University of Virginia Press PO Box 801079, Charlottesville, VA 22904-4318 USA Courier: 310 Old Ivy Way, Suite 302, Charlottesville VA 22903 Email: dsewell at virginia.edu Tel: +1 434 924 9973 Web: http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/ From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Oct 22 17:39:46 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:39:46 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Web search for tei-c.org (Was: Re: Internationalisation - two issues) In-Reply-To: References: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> <48FF534B.9010107@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48FF9DA2.9010303@oucs.ox.ac.uk> searching locally is relatively easy, once people have found the site; but I agree with Laurent that the average person expects the google search to "just work"... -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Oct 22 18:08:53 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:08:53 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Internationalisation - two issues In-Reply-To: <48FF566B.7000207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> <48FF55AD.4080309@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <48FF566B.7000207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <48FFA475.7060808@oucs.ox.ac.uk> aha. the fragment HTML pages do NOT have lang attributes or . adding now. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Oct 22 18:15:58 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:15:58 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Internationalisation - two issues In-Reply-To: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> References: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> Message-ID: <48FFA61E.2070700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I have now: - added tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/ to the list of things Google should not index - added @xml:lang attribute to all the small HTML *spec pages - added References: <8A081EBE-EAD0-4E71-B7F3-3BCA8130194D@loria.fr> <48FFA61E.2070700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20081023071039.jc2v6fcakg8wc44w@webmail.loria.fr> Thanks a lot Sebastian! Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit?: > I have now: > > - added tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/ to the list of things Google should not index > - added @xml:lang attribute to all the small HTML *spec pages > - added - made all the links to other languages in the small HTML *spec pages > link to the correct corresponding page > > the last 3 things will be in the release which I'll > be negotiating with Virginia in a week or so. > > only in about 3 weeks will we be able to tell if these > measures have solved Laurent's problem. > -- > Sebastian Rahtz > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Oct 24 04:22:12 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 09:22:12 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] example for TEI lite P5 In-Reply-To: <18688.40881.645547.206031@emt.wwp.brown.edu> References: <21dd99490810230111q4193a30cma67a549c0e5e575a@mail.gmail.com> <18688.40881.645547.206031@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <490185B4.50305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Syd Bauman wrote: >> Looking over the Chinese revision of TEI lite p5 we noticed that >> at 19.3: >> characterizes >> a single language or sublanguage used within a text. >> an example is needed. [sic] >> An example seems to be missing. Do you want to add this? >> > > If you suggest one, Marcus, I would be pleased to do so. You can in any case add one into your translation! > Hi Marcus! Good to hear from you. I hope to see you in London, no? > > Thanks for noticing this, but no, I don't think we want an example > here. The fact that and are in Lite at all is, > IMHO, a corrigible error. There is nothing light about them. So I > think the correct solution would be to remove the entire discussion, > rather than add an example. > > This rather raises the question of who is or should be responsible for editing and maintaining the content of TEI U5 though. The discussion of etc. was originally introduced into the text because it complemented the discussion of the @lang attribute, whic h definitely needs to be included there, and also because in P4 at least you really couldn't get far with non-English texts without using them in your header. I would find it difficult to justify whipping them ou http://www.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/XMLedition/URG/cdifhd.html#hdpdtct now, without reviewing many other components. possibly now regardable as non-light. I am CCing to the TEI Council for comment. From lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Oct 24 04:33:42 2008 From: lou.burnard at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 09:33:42 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] example for TEI lite P5 In-Reply-To: <490185B4.50305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <21dd99490810230111q4193a30cma67a549c0e5e575a@mail.gmail.com> <18688.40881.645547.206031@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <490185B4.50305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <49018866.7090100@oucs.ox.ac.uk> > http://www.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/XMLedition/URG/cdifhd.html#hdpdtct now, > without reviewing many other components. possibly now regardable as > non-light. > > Apologies not only for the rather convoluted sentence, but also the unintentional and entirely irrelevant URL which got pasted in to that message when I tried to improve it... both of which are of course the result of trying to deal with email before breakfast. From laurent.romary at loria.fr Fri Oct 24 05:44:47 2008 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 11:44:47 +0200 Subject: [tei-council] example for TEI lite P5 In-Reply-To: <490185B4.50305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> References: <21dd99490810230111q4193a30cma67a549c0e5e575a@mail.gmail.com> <18688.40881.645547.206031@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <490185B4.50305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <0413BEA1-5091-474B-8BAF-52F7F148B55F@loria.fr> Should we see the revision of U5 (TEI light) as part of the short term agenda? In any case, to answer the question, I think the council is responsible of the editorial maintenance of U5. Laurent Le 24 oct. 08 ? 10:22, Lou Burnard a ?crit : > Syd Bauman wrote: >>> Looking over the Chinese revision of TEI lite p5 we noticed that >>> at 19.3: >>> >> >characterizes >>> a single language or sublanguage used within a text. >>> an example is needed. [sic] >>> An example seems to be missing. Do you want to add this? >>> >> >> > If you suggest one, Marcus, I would be pleased to do so. You can in > any > case add one into your translation! >> Hi Marcus! Good to hear from you. I hope to see you in London, no? >> >> Thanks for noticing this, but no, I don't think we want an example >> here. The fact that and are in Lite at all is, >> IMHO, a corrigible error. There is nothing light about them. So I >> think the correct solution would be to remove the entire discussion, >> rather than add an example. >> >> > > This rather raises the question of who is or should be responsible for > editing and maintaining the content of TEI U5 though. The discussion > of > etc. was originally introduced into the text because it > complemented the discussion of the @lang attribute, whic h definitely > needs to be included there, and also because in P4 at least you really > couldn't get far with non-English texts without using them in your > header. I would find it difficult to justify whipping them ou > http://www.natcorp.ox.ac.uk/XMLedition/URG/cdifhd.html#hdpdtct now, > without reviewing many other components. possibly now regardable as > non-light. > > I am CCing to the TEI Council for comment. > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council at lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Oct 25 18:21:05 2008 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 23:21:05 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] P5 release soon Message-ID: <49039BD1.8070101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> I think we have now more or less completed all the tasks scheduled for release 1.2.0, due for the members meeting. The material at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Roma/ and http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/P5/ should be all in sync by tomorrow morning. So please check your favourite issue next week, and report any showstoppers before 31st October. I'd like to freeze on 1st November and get the material to Virginia to put on the web site there. -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 From pboot at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 26 12:42:07 2008 From: pboot at xs4all.nl (Peter Boot) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 17:42:07 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] example for TEI lite P5 In-Reply-To: <0413BEA1-5091-474B-8BAF-52F7F148B55F@loria.fr> References: <21dd99490810230111q4193a30cma67a549c0e5e575a@mail.gmail.com> <18688.40881.645547.206031@emt.wwp.brown.edu> <490185B4.50305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> <0413BEA1-5091-474B-8BAF-52F7F148B55F@loria.fr> Message-ID: <49049DDF.2090907@xs4all.nl> Laurent Romary schreef: > Should we see the revision of U5 (TEI light) as part of the short term > agenda? Are there any other problems reported with TEI Lite? If there are not, we should deal with this issue. I'd agree with Syd that in P5 is no longer needed in Lite, as xml:lang is, for most situations, sufficiently powerful. But it may be something for P5 1.3 (if we let customisations follow the release cycle of the main Guidelines) > In any case, to answer the question, I think the council is > responsible of the editorial maintenance of U5. I'd say the Council is responsible for maintaining the customizations that the TEI Consortium provides (Lite, bare, etc). Peter BTW: In the definition of @xml:lang in http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/ref-att.global.html, I think a reference to section vi.i (Language identification, http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/en/html/CH.html#CHSH) would be helpful. From dsewell at virginia.edu Mon Oct 27 19:51:55 2008 From: dsewell at virginia.edu (David Sewell) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 19:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tei-council] Report back on feature request to remove redundant *-iso attributes Message-ID: Re: Tracker item 2055864 http://sourceforge.net/tracker2/?func=detail&aid=2055864&group_id=106328&atid=644065 I've had a fairly lengthy email exchange with Syd Bauman over the past few days (if anybody wishes, I can bundle the messages as a text document and post them to the list) on this feature request, and our recommendations in brief are: 1. For the time being, take no action on the request. The main reason is that Lou's initial request makes the assumption that, given the flexibility of ISO 8601 syntax, @when-iso is capable of being fully synonymous with any of the other att.datable.iso attributes (largely because the syntax permits (a) the expression of a duration, and (b) the expression of from-to intervals using a solidus (/) separator. But in fact there is no way in ISO 8601 syntax to express the semantics of "notBefore" and "notAfter", so @notBefore-iso and @notAfter-iso could not be eliminated without loss of expressive ability, which defeats the goal of conflating the *-iso atttributes into att.datable. 2. The main thing you can do with full ISO 8601 date/time syntax that you can't do with the W3C Schema datatype subset of ISO 8601, beside expressing intervals using a "/" separator, is to represent dates and times with reduced accuracy. For example, to express "from 2 to 3 p.m.", W3C syntax requires