From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Sep 18 09:59:42 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:59:42 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: call, there were no objections to meet on Sep 23rd, 1300 UTC, so I would like to set this time for the conference. Perry, could I ask you to set this up and inform us of the procedure? Collection of the agenda items will start now. The agenda will also include the usual reports from WG; we also need to discuss the report from our work that we will present to the members meeting in Nancy. All the best, Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN From bogus@does.not.exist.com Tue Sep 18 09:59:42 2007 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:59:42 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Council meeting next year, I got the impression that there were no strong objections against a meeting in May in Gent, but for many a meeting adjacent to ALLC/ACH would be considerably more difficult to arrange. Taking this in account and realizing that some of us will have to make the trip to Europe thus twice within a month, I would like to propose the meeting for may 13-15, on the Thursday to Saturday pattern we had last year. This means that we start after Lunch on Thursday, so members attending from Europe could come in same day, if they wish. We will then meet the whole Friday and reserve Saturday for possible extension, bringing us to a total of 1 1/2 to 2 meeting days. The decision has not been easy (and I was wondering if there are better ways to arrive at such a decision), but I hope everybody will be able to adjust her plans and will be able to join us in Gent.

With this I would like to wish everybody a nice holiday season, whatever holiday the country you live in might schedule at this time of the year. In Japan, this happens to be the New Year holiday where once a year the whole country seems to close down for business and become busy visiting Temples and Shrines, Friends and Relatives and feasting in many other ways.

All the best, Christian Wittern

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jan 5 21:24:04 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:24:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] Comments on the conformance document In-Reply-To: <0F41634B-9414-489A-94C0-5FFD058B01A9@loria.fr> Message-ID: <200701060224.l062O4kR012397@draco.services.brown.edu>

From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 21:24:04 -0500 (EST)
[Council -- my apologies. I wrote this back in late September, but for
some reason it never got posted. The recent discussion on TEI-L had me
look for it, and finding that it never got posted here it is ... I'm
not sure there is much, if anything, new here.]

LB> The TEI's claim is that has sufficient generality and coverage in
LB> its semantics that it can be customized to meet most needs
LB> without too much effort. ... we need to have a metric to assess
LB> the interchangeability ... of the resulting documents. That's
LB> what conformance is.
While it may be a very good idea for us to have a metric to assess
interchangeability, I don't think it's a requirement. After all, P3
and P4 did not have such a metric, or at least not at the same level
of nuance. Nonetheless, I agree that it's a good idea to discuss such
a metric in the Guidelines. But I think (*very* strongly) that the
metric of ease of interchange should not be confused with a
definition of conformance. After all, I can (and should be able to)
create TEI documents that are 100% conformant, but because they rely
on my own taxonomy of type=, my own method for indicating rhyme=, my
own method for indicating rend=, etc., are not easily plopped into
your system. On the other hand, I can create a document that has an
added element which your system could accommodate with only the
smallest of tweaks.
That is, all of the degrees of interchangeability discussed at
http://www.tei-c.org.uk/wiki/index.php/Conformance describe conformant
documents (correction: #5 does not describe a TEI document at all,
and I do not think it should be on the list).
I think that we should focus this discussion on the degrees of
interchangeability, and stop mis-using the term "conformance".
Conformance is a separate (although related) issue about making what
you've done with respect to the Guidelines explicit in a specified,
predictable, way.
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 6 10:39:58 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 15:39:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] numbered divs, a proposed solution Message-ID: <459FC2CE.5080805@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2007 15:39:58 +0000
You can hardly have failed to notice the argument on TEI-L
which revolved around Ron vd B's innocuous expectation
that if he deleted mumbered divs in his ODD, he would
get a valid DTD.
I know one should not solve a general problem by dealing
with a special case case, but I also think that there is a time for
compromise and practicality, so I have a firm proposal which
I'd like you to consider. I claim it will solve this problem
at a relatively small cost, compared to the public
embarassment this will keep on causing.
The idea is that we much simplify the content model of ,
and to allow _either_ paragraph-like
objects (macro.component) _or_
div-like objects (as well as the existing top and bottom elements).
The "div-like" would be expressed as a new
class model.divLike, and its membership would be
div, div0, div1 and divGen.
Good things:
1. so long as at least one member of the class exists, any other can
be safely deleted
2. you can create new objects easily which will be allowed inside
Bad things:
1. you can interleave div, div1 and div0 ad lib.
2. if model.divLike is entirely empty, it fails at present cos of
globals being ambiguous
Strange things:
1. you can interleave div and divGen ad lib. that strikes me as
moderately desirable.

To deal with the first bad thing, I have added a Schematron test
which detects silly combinations. The second requires
some more jiggery-pokery; I think it's solvable with a lot
of patience.
My proposal for the content model of is below. The fully-worked
example is in P5/Test/testfand.odd in Subversion.
Views? I have not tried integrating this into the main TEI and running
all tests, but I have a tei_all with these changes and done
some obvious tests which threw up no funnies.
I take it as axiomatic that we cannot simply leave the
current setup as it is. We must do _something_ to allow
the simple case of "delete numbered divs" to work.















































name="pattern.body">


You cannot mix numbered divs with unnumbered divs in body


You cannot mix div0 with div1 at the same level in body




-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Jan 06 2007 - 10:40:22 EST

From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 8 05:30:39 2007 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 10:30:39 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] numbered divs, a proposed solution In-Reply-To: <459FC2CE.5080805@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45A21D4F.8020004@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 10:30:39 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> You can hardly have failed to notice the argument on TEI-L
> which revolved around Ron vd B's innocuous expectation
> that if he deleted mumbered divs in his ODD, he would
> get a valid DTD.
I agree that this is an innocuous expectation and that he should be able to
delete numbered divs. When we discussed and decided to drop support for SGML
(around 2006-09-14) it was mentioned that the support for DTDs was also
difficult. I'm assuming this is an example of that. Does this problem exist in
the generated schemas, or only the DTDs?
> I know one should not solve a general problem by dealing
> with a special case case, but I also think that there is a time for
> compromise and practicality, so I have a firm proposal which
> I'd like you to consider. I claim it will solve this problem
> at a relatively small cost, compared to the public
> embarassment this will keep on causing.
I agree that the problem needs to be solved one way or another.
> The "div-like" would be expressed as a new
> class model.divLike, and its membership would be
> div, div0, div1 and divGen.
I suppose we couldn't re-open the issue of whether we should just get rid of the
option of div0|div1 and just pick one or the other?
> Bad things:
> 1. you can interleave div, div1 and div0 ad lib.
> 2. if model.divLike is entirely empty, it fails at present cos of
> globals being ambiguous
These are both quite bad in my mind. 1) The whole point of divs vs numbered divs
is that they are mutually exclusive isn't it? I mean I'm not supposed to be
able to use both in the same document?
> To deal with the first bad thing, I have added a Schematron test
> which detects silly combinations. The second requires
> some more jiggery-pokery; I think it's solvable with a lot
> of patience.
So, is the real issue behind this whether we want to rely on Schematron for
these tests? And to do so for a special case solution? Does adopting Schematron
for this have any negative implications?
> I take it as axiomatic that we cannot simply leave the
> current setup as it is. We must do _something_ to allow
> the simple case of "delete numbered divs" to work.
I agree that something must be done. Does any one have any suggested alternatives?
-James
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 08 2007 - 05:30:52 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Mon Jan 8 12:48:10 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 12:48:10 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] numbered divs, a proposed solution In-Reply-To: <45A21D4F.8020004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17826.33754.484151.883531@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 12:48:10 -0500
I may not get to give this issue full attention for a little while,
but some brief thoughts follow.

> > You can hardly have failed to notice the argument on TEI-L
> > which revolved around Ron vd B's innocuous expectation
> > that if he deleted mumbered divs in his ODD, he would
> > get a valid DTD.
>
> I agree that this is an innocuous expectation and that he should be
> able to delete numbered divs.
I agree, too, although as I think I've said before, this could be
documented around, rather than really solved.

> When we discussed and decided to drop support for SGML (around
> 2006-09-14) it was mentioned that the support for DTDs was also
> difficult. I'm assuming this is an example of that. Does this
> problem exist in the generated schemas, or only the DTDs?
Exactly correct. The problem exists in DTDs and probably in W3C
Schemata, although I don't know that anyone has tested the latter.
The problem does *not* exist in Relax NG.

> > I know one should not solve a general problem by dealing with a
> > special case case, but I also think that there is a time for
> > compromise and practicality, so I have a firm proposal which I'd
> > like you to consider. I claim it will solve this problem at a
> > relatively small cost, compared to the public embarassment this
> > will keep on causing.
>
> I agree that the problem needs to be solved one way or another.
I have not looked at Sebastian's proposal here closely enough to give
a real opinion on it, so I am *not* saying here that I prefer the
brute-force or hack methods better. But I am curious: does the above
statement mean that you have looked at the FAND ODDs I posted on the
wiki and don't think they are viable solutions?[1]

> > The "div-like" would be expressed as a new class model.divLike,
> > and its membership would be div, div0, div1 and divGen.
>
> I suppose we couldn't re-open the issue of whether we should just
> get rid of the option of div0|div1 and just pick one or the other?
We can, and perhaps should, but it doesn't make any significant
difference. I.e., the non-deterministic content model problem will
exist whenever all numbered divs are deleted in your ODD, whether
div0 is among them or not.

> These are both quite bad in my mind. 1) The whole point of divs vs
> numbered divs is that they are mutually exclusive isn't it? I mean
> I'm not supposed to be able to use both in the same document?
Not within the same , , or .

> So, is the real issue behind this whether we want to rely on
> Schematron for these tests? And to do so for a special case
> solution? Does adopting Schematron for this have any negative
> implications?
These are exactly the important questions to address up front, I
think.

> > I take it as axiomatic that we cannot simply leave the current
> > setup as it is. We must do _something_ to allow the simple case
> > of "delete numbered divs" to work.
>
> I agree that something must be done. Does any one have any
> suggested alternatives?
While I may be convinced that something must be done, I am not
convinced yet.

Notes
-----
[1] http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/FAND1_hack and
http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/FAND2_replace
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 8 15:56:54 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:56:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] numbered divs, a proposed solution In-Reply-To: <17826.33754.484151.883531@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45A2B016.6070906@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:56:54 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
>
> But I am curious: does the above
> statement mean that you have looked at the FAND ODDs I posted on the
> wiki and don't think they are viable solutions?[1]
>
the ingenious hack #1 only works for DTDs. I am considering implementing
this directly in odd2dtd, so that when you have an empty
class, a _DUMMY_ is inserted. But it puzzles me as
to _why_ it works, since the content model _is_ ambiguous.
And what about W3C schema.
hack #2 is too complex. sorry. such a simple task
has to be easier, in my book.
>
>> So, is the real issue behind this whether we want to rely on
>> Schematron for these tests? And to do so for a special case
>> solution? Does adopting Schematron for this have any negative
>> implications?
>>
>
> These are exactly the important questions to address up front, I
> think.
>
I am sure you and James have a nice view up there
sitting on the fence :-}
but I'd rather see a concrete expression of yes
or no for the principal question.....
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 08 2007 - 15:57:08 EST
From jawalsh at indiana.edu Mon Jan 8 16:13:12 2007 From: jawalsh at indiana.edu (John A. Walsh) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:13:12 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] numbered divs, a proposed solution In-Reply-To: <45A2B016.6070906@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID:
From: John A. Walsh
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 16:13:12 -0500
On Jan 8, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>> So, is the real issue behind this whether we want to rely on
>> Schematron for these tests? And to do so for a special case
>> solution? Does adopting Schematron for this have any negative
>> implications?
I think the negative implication is that if we tell the TEI user
community that they need to use DTDs + Schematron (or W3C/RELAX NG +
Schematron) to validate their documents correctly, many of them will
run away screaming. Or they will run away silently because they
don't want to admit they don't know or care what Schematron is. And
they'll probably run back to the perceived warm comforting arms of P4
and plain old DTDs. I think the user community needs the choice
between DTD and W3C; some, including me, want the choice of RELAX NG
as well. They don't want a requirement to use Schematron, except for
their own content validation. I think it's important that we avoid a
need to use Schematron.
John
-- | John A. Walsh | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | www: | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 edu> _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 08 2007 - 16:13:26 EST
From djbpitt+tei at pitt.edu Mon Jan 8 16:13:04 2007 From: djbpitt+tei at pitt.edu (David J Birnbaum) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 16:13:04 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] numbered divs, a proposed solution In-Reply-To: <45A2B016.6070906@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45A2B3E0.3020503@pitt.edu>
From: David J Birnbaum
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 16:13:04 -0500
Dear Sebastian (cc Council),
> I am sure you and James have a nice view up there
> sitting on the fence :-}
>
> but I'd rather see a concrete expression of yes
> or no for the principal question.....
Reluctant yes. The two "bad things" bother me and I'm not happy about
having to rely on Schematron, but those limitations pale in comparison
to living in a world where one cannot remove numbered divs, and I can't
think of a better solution.
Best,
David

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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 8 16:40:11 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:40:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] numbered divs, a proposed solution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45A2BA3B.1020801@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:40:11 +0000
John A. Walsh wrote:
>
> I think the user community needs the choice between DTD and W3C;
> some, including me, want the choice of RELAX NG as well. They don't
> want a requirement to use Schematron, except for their own content
> validation. I think it's important that we avoid a need to use
> Schematron.
>
Fair view. If that's what the majority think, back to the drawing board :-{
I'm trying some more tricks now.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 08 2007 - 16:40:30 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 8 17:49:11 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:49:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) Message-ID: <45A2CA67.6020900@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:49:11 +0000
I have done some more work on this, and I am able to solve
one of the problems. I have implemented Syd's No1 Hack
in the ODD processing, whereby any model class which
has no members is replaced by "_DUMMY_". It shuts
up the XML processor nicely. So far so good,
it would let you entirely delete any kind of div.
Now, supposed we have *two* classes, one
for div and divGen, one for divGen, div1 and div0. Now
we can say that you can have one set or the other.
All well and good, we don't need the Schematron thing
any more.
Spotted the problem? yes, its . If its
in both classes, its ambiguous.
I could make _another_ class for divGen, I suppose.
Oh lordy lordy.
Anyone got a suggestion to get me out of this last hole?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 08 2007 - 17:49:28 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Mon Jan 8 18:48:35 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 18:48:35 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] numbered divs, a proposed solution In-Reply-To: <45A2B016.6070906@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17826.55379.927889.377121@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 18:48:35 -0500
> > But I am curious: does the above statement mean that you have
> > looked at the FAND ODDs I posted on the wiki and don't think they
> > are viable solutions?[1]
> >
> the ingenious hack #1 only works for DTDs.
Why do you say that? Both the .rng and .rnc files I get from roma are
valid, and seem to work exactly as expected (i.e., as the DTD does).

> I am considering implementing this directly in odd2dtd, so that
> when you have an empty class, a _DUMMY_ is inserted.
Seems like a route we may want to follow.

> But it puzzles me as to _why_ it works, since the content model
> _is_ ambiguous.
Again, what makes you say that? The content model for , e.g.,
certainly looks deterministic to me.[1] Xerces J, xmllint, and
onsgmls all say the DTD is fine.

> And what about W3C schema.
I don't know, and haven't tested, although it seems unlikely that
what is deterministic in its Relax NG source would be converted into
something non-deterministic by trang.

> hack #2 is too complex. sorry. such a simple task has to be easier,
> in my book.
Allow me to play devil's advocate. First, I will argue that it's not
an at all difficult task. To remove numbered divs go to the sample
ODD, find the part that says "copy-and-paste this section", copy it,
paste it into your ODD, and you're done. Heck, there could even be a
little check-box on the Roma web interface that caused this
oh-so-common request to happen for you.
But more to the point, when did it become the TEI's goal to protect
users from schema code? While certainly not as nice as a class-system
change, this change is still easier than it was in P4.

Notes
-----
[1] It is as follows:
(
( %model.divWrapper; | %model.global; )*,
(
(
( %macro.component;, %model.global;*)+,
(
( divGen, %model.global;* )*,
(
( div, ( div | divGen | %model.global; )* )
|
( DO_NOT_USE_THIS, ( DO_NOT_USE_THIS | divGen | %model.global; )* )
|
( DO_NOT_USE_ME, ( DO_NOT_USE_ME | divGen | %model.global; )* )
)?
)
)
|
(
( divGen, %model.global;* )*,
(
( div, ( div | divGen | %model.global; )* )
|
( DO_NOT_USE_THIS, ( DO_NOT_USE_THIS | divGen | %model.global; )* )
|
( DO_NOT_USE_ME, ( DO_NOT_USE_ME | divGen | %model.global; )* )
)
)
),
%model.divWrapper.bottom;*
)
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 8 19:03:24 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 00:03:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45A2CA67.6020900@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45A2DBCC.6040002@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 00:03:24 +0000
I am glad to say that the question of W3C schema allowing
non-deterministic content
models appears to be a non-issue. My test XSD file seems to have come
through
with no problem.
So I now have an ODD which can delete any or all of div0, div1, div and
divGen,
and the RELAXNG, DTD and XSD schemas all work as expected. div0|div1 and
div cannot co-exist.
The price I have had to pay is inventing *3* new classes,
model.divLike, model.ndivLike, and model.divGenLike.
It's a hideous price to pay, but it works.
So, if you don't mind those 3 new classes,
and you don't find it strange have a DTD like this:
_DUMMY_model.divGenLike))*,(((%macro.component;),(%model.global; |
_DUMMY_model.divGenLike)*)+ | (_DUMMY_model.divLike,(%model.global; |
_DUMMY_model.divGenLike)*)+ | ((%model.ndivLike;),(%model.global; |
_DUMMY_model.divGenLike)*)+),(%model.divWrapper.bottom;)*)>
then I claim victory, pending a full test.
Here is the final content model:


































































-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 08 2007 - 19:03:29 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 8 19:09:13 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 00:09:13 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] numbered divs, a proposed solution In-Reply-To: <17826.55379.927889.377121@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45A2DD29.8050008@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 00:09:13 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
>> the ingenious hack #1 only works for DTDs.
>>
>
> Why do you say that? Both the .rng and .rnc files I get from roma are
> valid, and seem to work exactly as expected (i.e., as the DTD does).
>
yes, sorry, I lied. The dummies are not needed in the
other languages, of course.
>
>> But it puzzles me as to _why_ it works, since the content model
>> _is_ ambiguous.
>>
>
> Again, what makes you say that? The content model for , e.g.,
> certainly looks deterministic to me.[1] Xerces J, xmllint, and
> onsgmls all say the DTD is fine.
>
yes, its technically OK. but if you have
(DUMMY | foo), (DUMMY2 | foo)
and you meet just a "foo", where does it come from?
>
> Allow me to play devil's advocate. First, I will argue that it's not
> an at all difficult task. To remove numbered divs go to the sample
> ODD, find the part that says "copy-and-paste this section", copy it,
> paste it into your ODD, and you're done. Heck, there could even be a
> little check-box on the Roma web interface that caused this
> oh-so-common request to happen for you.
>
I wish I could go along with saying that's acceptable, but I just
can't.....
> But more to the point, when did it become the TEI's goal to protect
> users from schema code?
speaking for myself, since the dawn of creation. its axiomatic
in my book. I realize we have different books :-}

Anyway, having divLike classes adds the enormous advantage that
you can now easily add your own new object to be a child of .
Don't tell me *that* was easy before!
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 08 2007 - 19:09:26 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 8 19:11:58 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 00:11:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] numbered divs, a proposed solution In-Reply-To: <45A2DD29.8050008@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45A2DDCE.2040102@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 00:11:58 +0000
I should also note that the technique of using DUMMY_model.***** to
replace any
empty class model.***** may well solve a slew of other nasty problems
which are simply less common than the unnumbered div thing.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 08 2007 - 19:12:06 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Mon Jan 8 20:50:10 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Wittern Christian) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 10:50:10 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45A2DBCC.6040002@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45A2F4D2.3010702@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Wittern Christian
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 10:50:10 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> The price I have had to pay is inventing *3* new classes,
> model.divLike, model.ndivLike, and model.divGenLike.
> It's a hideous price to pay, but it works.
It does not seem too high to me, though. Remember the class meeting,
where we invented classes by the dozens before lunch?
But seriously, I think this is the solution we have been hoping for, no
schematron, no unpleasant ODD massaging.
All the best,
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 08 2007 - 20:50:46 EST

From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 9 07:23:54 2007 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:23:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45A2DBCC.6040002@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45A3895A.8060709@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:23:54 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> So I now have an ODD which can delete any or all of div0, div1, div and
> divGen,
> and the RELAXNG, DTD and XSD schemas all work as expected. div0|div1 and
> div cannot co-exist.
>
> The price I have had to pay is inventing *3* new classes,
> model.divLike, model.ndivLike, and model.divGenLike.
> It's a hideous price to pay, but it works.
I think that Sebastian's solution is good and elegant. The only problem it
causes is in fact a great opportunity. Currently his solution allows me to
validate a document whose body looks like this:



test





test




As you can see this allows me to have *both* div1 and div0 at the top level.
However, I don't think his elegant solution should be thrown out with the
bathwater. No, no, instead this is an opportunity to solve yet another TEI
problem. If we remove div1 from the model.ndivLike class, then the solution
works perfectly.
The only side effect is that people are unable to start a document using div1
... in my mind this is hardly a drawback. (While I have no preference of
starting with div0 or div1, my cummings compromise for the month is that
removing div1 from the class is a much easier change than removing div0 from the
class and entirely.) Moreover, if people really want to start their documents at
div1, all they have to do is add it to the model.ndivLike class (and optionally
remove div0 from said class).
This is not a flaw, it is an opportunity.
-James
>
> So, if you don't mind those 3 new classes,
> and you don't find it strange have a DTD like this:
>
>
> _DUMMY_model.divGenLike))*,(((%macro.component;),(%model.global; |
> _DUMMY_model.divGenLike)*)+ | (_DUMMY_model.divLike,(%model.global; |
> _DUMMY_model.divGenLike)*)+ | ((%model.ndivLike;),(%model.global; |
> _DUMMY_model.divGenLike)*)+),(%model.divWrapper.bottom;)*)>
>
> then I claim victory, pending a full test.
>
> Here is the final content model:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 09 2007 - 07:24:06 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 9 07:37:15 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:37:15 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45A3895A.8060709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45A38C7B.9030302@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 12:37:15 +0000
Truly James he speaks the truth. This *is* the time to remove that
div0/div1 weirdness.

div1: "contains a first-level subdivision of the front, body, or back
of a text (the largest, if
div0 is not used, the second largest if it is)."
igh.
OK, whats the case for the defence?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 09 2007 - 07:37:28 EST

From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Jan 9 08:15:28 2007 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 14:15:28 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45A38C7B.9030302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID:
From: Laurent Romary
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 14:15:28 +0100
It reminds me of Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975): "Burn"
Le 9 janv. 07 ? 13:37, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit :
> Truly James he speaks the truth. This *is* the time to remove that
> div0/div1 weirdness.
>
>
> div1: "contains a first-level subdivision of the front, body,
> or back
> of a text (the largest, if
> div0 is not used, the second largest if it is)."
>
> sigh.
>
> OK, whats the case for the defence?
>
> --
> Sebastian Rahtz
> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
>
> OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
_______________________________________________
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Received on Tue Jan 09 2007 - 08:16:56 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 9 08:33:28 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:33:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45A399A8.9000705@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 13:33:28 +0000
I have just back-ported the contents of my test ODD into the body
of the TEI [1] and re-run all the tests. There are no unexpected results,
so I claim that my FAND approach works.
However, having removed div1 from model.divNLike
as per James' suggestion, I do hit a number of examples
in the Guidelines which use in that way;
if I reverse the polarity, I find some starting
elements.
There are three choices:
1. mandate div0 as the top level, and fix our own examples.
2. remove div0 entirely from the TEI
3. start again and try to reimplement the existing allowance.
I'd vote for 1.
[1] no, I have not submitted it to Sourceforge Subversion:-}
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 09 2007 - 08:33:41 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Jan 11 11:03:21 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:03:21 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Council meeting in Berlin, 2007 Message-ID: <17830.24521.896613.773882@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:03:21 -0500
Are we set for the dates for meeting in Berlin?
pre-meeting event: 2007-04-25
meeting: 2007-04-26/27
Back in 2006-11-23/26 the following folks said they could make at
least the meeting dates (and most, if not all, said they could make
the pre-event, too):
LR, SR, LB, CT, DO, CW, JC.
Those dates are also fine w/ me, for both pre-meeting and meeting.
JW posted saying pre-meeting event was OK; I presume you meant the
meeting dates were OK, too, yes? That would mean 9 of the expected 14
attendees have responded in the affirmative.
April 2007
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 23 24 25 26 27 28
29 30
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From jawalsh at indiana.edu Thu Jan 11 11:04:40 2007 From: jawalsh at indiana.edu (John A. Walsh) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:04:40 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Council meeting in Berlin, 2007 In-Reply-To: <17830.24521.896613.773882@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <59623B8F-F89C-444F-A2CB-E80AAAE7C023@indiana.edu>
From: John A. Walsh
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:04:40 -0500
Syd,
Yes. I'm clear for both the meeting and the pre-meeting event.
John
-- | John A. Walsh | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | www: | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 edu> On Jan 11, 2007, at 11:03 AM, Syd Bauman wrote: > Are we set for the dates for meeting in Berlin? > pre-meeting event: 2007-04-25 > meeting: 2007-04-26/27 > > Back in 2006-11-23/26 the following folks said they could make at > least the meeting dates (and most, if not all, said they could make > the pre-event, too): > LR, SR, LB, CT, DO, CW, JC. > Those dates are also fine w/ me, for both pre-meeting and meeting. > > JW posted saying pre-meeting event was OK; I presume you meant the > meeting dates were OK, too, yes? That would mean 9 of the expected 14 > attendees have responded in the affirmative. > > April 2007 > Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 > 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 > 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 > 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 > 29 30 > > _______________________________________________ > tei-council mailing list > tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 11 2007 - 11:04:51 EST
From mjd at hum.ku.dk Thu Jan 11 11:09:19 2007 From: mjd at hum.ku.dk (M. J. Driscoll) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:09:19 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Council meeting in Berlin, 2007 In-Reply-To: <59623B8F-F89C-444F-A2CB-E80AAAE7C023@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <45A66F3F.6562.1CA0461@localhost>
From: M. J. Driscoll
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:09:19 +0100
These dates are fine for me, too.
I'm fairly sure I'd already confirmed this, but one never really knows, does
one?
MJD
> Syd,
>
> Yes. I'm clear for both the meeting and the pre-meeting event.
>
> John
> --
> | John A. Walsh
> | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science
> | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405
> | www:
> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 edu>
>
>
> On Jan 11, 2007, at 11:03 AM, Syd Bauman wrote:
>
> > Are we set for the dates for meeting in Berlin?
> > pre-meeting event: 2007-04-25
> > meeting: 2007-04-26/27
> >
> > Back in 2006-11-23/26 the following folks said they could make at
> > least the meeting dates (and most, if not all, said they could make
> > the pre-event, too):
> > LR, SR, LB, CT, DO, CW, JC.
> > Those dates are also fine w/ me, for both pre-meeting and meeting.
> >
> > JW posted saying pre-meeting event was OK; I presume you meant the
> > meeting dates were OK, too, yes? That would mean 9 of the expected 14
> > attendees have responded in the affirmative.
> >
> > April 2007
> > Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
> > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
> > 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
> > 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
> > 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
> > 29 30
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > tei-council mailing list
> > tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council

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Received on Thu Jan 11 2007 - 11:09:34 EST

From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Thu Jan 11 11:53:58 2007 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:53:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Council meeting in Berlin, 2007 In-Reply-To: <45A66F3F.6562.1CA0461@localhost> Message-ID: <45A66BA6.6020708@kcl.ac.uk>
From: Arianna Ciula
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:53:58 +0000
I am sure I had confirmed as well, but probably directly with Laurent.
Arianna
M. J. Driscoll wrote:
> These dates are fine for me, too.
>
> I'm fairly sure I'd already confirmed this, but one never really knows, does
> one?
>
> MJD
>
>> Syd,
>>
>> Yes. I'm clear for both the meeting and the pre-meeting event.
>>
>> John
>> --
>> | John A. Walsh
>> | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science
>> | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405
>> | www:
>> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 edu>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 11, 2007, at 11:03 AM, Syd Bauman wrote:
>>
>>> Are we set for the dates for meeting in Berlin?
>>> pre-meeting event: 2007-04-25
>>> meeting: 2007-04-26/27
>>>
>>> Back in 2006-11-23/26 the following folks said they could make at
>>> least the meeting dates (and most, if not all, said they could make
>>> the pre-event, too):
>>> LR, SR, LB, CT, DO, CW, JC.
>>> Those dates are also fine w/ me, for both pre-meeting and meeting.
>>>
>>> JW posted saying pre-meeting event was OK; I presume you meant the
>>> meeting dates were OK, too, yes? That would mean 9 of the expected 14
>>> attendees have responded in the affirmative.
>>>
>>> April 2007
>>> Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
>>> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
>>> 8 9 10 11 12 13 14
>>> 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
>>> 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
>>> 29 30
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> tei-council mailing list
>>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>> _______________________________________________
>> tei-council mailing list
>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
-- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London Strand London WC2R 2LS (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 11 2007 - 11:52:41 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Jan 11 12:38:47 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:38:47 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Council meeting in Berlin, 2007 In-Reply-To: <45A66BA6.6020708@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17830.30247.305923.647231@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:38:47 -0500
> I am sure I had confirmed as well, but probably directly with
> Laurent.
Nope. You confirmed to the list, as did DP. I just missed it because
you two confirmed *after* LR's follow-up. Sorry, no insult intended,
I promise!
So that means 11 of 14 have confirmed. I'm guessing that means we're
a "go" for those dates, but would like to hear from the local
organizer (LR) and chair (CW) before writing it down in pen on my
calendar.
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Received on Thu Jan 11 2007 - 12:38:50 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Fri Jan 12 01:12:49 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Wittern Christian) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:12:49 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] test of telecon options Message-ID: <45A726E1.1070602@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Wittern Christian
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:12:49 +0900
Dear Council members,
I hope everybody had a good start into the new year, the year of the
wild pig in this part of the world. As usual, the start into the year
is very slow in Japan, with lots of holidays, so we are just getting
into working mode here again in the last couple of days.
In preparation for our next teleconference, which is scheduled for Jan
23 at 1200 UTC, I would like to invite those who have time for a little
chat at the same time this next Monday (Jan. 15). The purpose is to
test if the highspeedconferencing.com system, which allows to call in
from VoIP and landline phones would give us better acoustic performance
than our current system.
Personally, I would like to see Syd among the volunteers for this chat,
since I had the most difficulties with the line from Brown so far
(maybe because it is just on the opposite site of the planet?), but
anybody is welcome. Sebastian, would you please give us instructions
what to do?
Apart from that, I hope everybody is busy chopping away on the action
items (for a reminder, please look at
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm27.xml?style=printable)
All the best,
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 12 2007 - 01:12:57 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 12 07:16:09 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:16:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] test of telecon options In-Reply-To: <45A726E1.1070602@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45A77C09.3050604@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:16:09 +0000
> anybody is welcome. Sebastian, would you please give us instructions
> what to do?
>
>
an email should come soon, if I have done it right

-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 12 2007 - 07:16:22 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 12 07:21:34 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:21:34 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] test of telecon options In-Reply-To: <45A77C09.3050604@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45A77D4E.6050701@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:21:34 +0000
sigh. of course my gmail account cannot email council.
I append the message it should have sent you.
Dear TEI Council List,
sebastian.rahtz has scheduled a conference for:
Monday, January 15, 2007 12:00 PM (GMT+00:00)
Notes:

>From Skype call +99008275326922
In the US, call 1-712-432-4000
Calling from Europe, call
In Austria: 0820 400 01562
In Belgium: 0703 59 984
In France: 0826 100 266
In Germany 01805 00 7620
In UK: 0870 119 2350
Enter Conference Room Number : 5326922

-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 12 2007 - 07:21:46 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Fri Jan 12 07:52:28 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Wittern Christian) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 21:52:28 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Council meeting in Berlin, 2007 In-Reply-To: <17830.30247.305923.647231@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45A7848C.9040900@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Wittern Christian
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 21:52:28 +0900
Syd Bauman wrote:
> So that means 11 of 14 have confirmed. I'm guessing that means we're
> a "go" for those dates, but would like to hear from the local
> organizer (LR) and chair (CW) before writing it down in pen on my
> calendar.
I had the impression we already decided about that. Anyway, if
necessary, here we go
"there is one more thing..."
The TEI Tecnical Council will hold its annual meeting for 2007 in
Berlin, Germany from April 26 to 27, with a pre-conference workshop on
April 25. See you there!
All the best,
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 12 2007 - 07:53:06 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Fri Jan 12 07:54:48 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Wittern Christian) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 21:54:48 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] test of telecon options In-Reply-To: <45A77D4E.6050701@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45A78518.3070802@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Wittern Christian
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 21:54:48 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> sigh. of course my gmail account cannot email council.
Thanks.
> sebastian.rahtz has scheduled a conference for:
> Monday, January 15, 2007 12:00 PM (GMT+00:00)
>
> Notes:
>
>
>
>>From Skype call +99008275326922
> In the US, call 1-712-432-4000
> Calling from Europe, call
> In Austria: 0820 400 01562
> In Belgium: 0703 59 984
> In France: 0826 100 266
> In Germany 01805 00 7620
> In UK: 0870 119 2350
Is there a land line to call from Japan or New Zealand?
Just curious if we have a fallback option here...
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 12 2007 - 07:55:50 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 12 07:59:36 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:59:36 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] test of telecon options In-Reply-To: <45A78518.3070802@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45A78638.9030003@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:59:36 +0000
Wittern Christian wrote:
>
> Is there a land line to call from Japan or New Zealand?
>
> Just curious if we have a fallback option here...
>
>
no, I am afraid not, you'd have to call the US number.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 12 2007 - 07:59:48 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Fri Jan 12 11:28:02 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:28:02 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] test of telecon options In-Reply-To: <45A726E1.1070602@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <1168619282.32635.8.camel@caedmon>
From: Daniel O'Donnell
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:28:02 -0700
As much as I'd like to give it a tryout, I hope I'll be forgiven missing
a GMT 1200 (MST 0500) test call!
-dan
On Fri, 2007-01-12 at 15:12 +0900, Wittern Christian wrote:
> Dear Council members,
>
> I hope everybody had a good start into the new year, the year of the
> wild pig in this part of the world. As usual, the start into the year
> is very slow in Japan, with lots of holidays, so we are just getting
> into working mode here again in the last couple of days.
>
> In preparation for our next teleconference, which is scheduled for Jan
> 23 at 1200 UTC, I would like to invite those who have time for a little
> chat at the same time this next Monday (Jan. 15). The purpose is to
> test if the highspeedconferencing.com system, which allows to call in
> from VoIP and landline phones would give us better acoustic performance
> than our current system.
> Personally, I would like to see Syd among the volunteers for this chat,
> since I had the most difficulties with the line from Brown so far
> (maybe because it is just on the opposite site of the planet?), but
> anybody is welcome. Sebastian, would you please give us instructions
> what to do?
>
> Apart from that, I hope everybody is busy chopping away on the action
> items (for a reminder, please look at
> http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm27.xml?style=printable)
>
> All the best,
>
> Christian
>
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell_at_uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 12 2007 - 11:28:06 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jan 12 16:30:44 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:30:44 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] test of telecon options In-Reply-To: <45A726E1.1070602@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <17831.65028.155844.769109@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:30:44 -0500
> ... a little chat at the same time this next Monday (Jan. 15). ...
> I would like to see Syd among the volunteers for this chat, since I
> had the most difficulties with the line from Brown so far
I will make every effort to dial in at 2007-01-15 00:00Z [1], but as
it is a holiday here in the States, I will have to do so from home,
not from work. On the other hand, IIRC, most of the trouble we've had
hearing each other, Christian, has been while I'm at home. (I
generally take early morning conference calls from home.)
Looking forward!
Note
---- [1] Some timezone equivalents: Calgary Canada - Alberta Mon 05:00 Chicago U.S.A. - Illinois Mon 06:00 Indianapolis U.S.A. - Indiana Mon 07:00 Providence U.S.A. - Rhode Island Mon 07:00 London U.K. - England Mon 12:00 Paris France Mon 13:00 Taipei Taiwan Mon 20:00 Kyoto Japan Mon 21:00 Wellington New Zealand Tue 01:00 _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 12 2007 - 16:30:51 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Mon Jan 15 07:22:16 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Wittern Christian) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 21:22:16 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] teleconference scheduled for 2007-01-23, 1200 GMT on highspeedconferencing.com Message-ID: <45AB71F8.5030903@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Wittern Christian
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 21:22:16 +0900
Dear Council members,
Thanks to Sebastian, Matthew Driscoll, Tone Merete and Laurent, we just
successfully conducted our test on the highspeedconferencing.com system.
The results were encouraging for me; the voices from Europe much more
audible than usual. Although we missed our colleagues from the American
continent, understandably, it is hard to say how it will scale to 15
people in the line instead of just 5, but I think it is worth a try and
if successful should make the calls much less costly, since most
participants would not need to make oversea calls. However, for those
planning to use skype to connect -- please get a good headset to use,
otherwise you will spoil the whole experience.
Now, back to business. I am starting to collect agenda items. If you
have something you think should be on our mind, please post it to the
list. Updates on work items, reports, documents for review etc. please
post them and announce them here before the weekend!
All the best,
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 15 2007 - 07:23:00 EST

From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Jan 17 07:26:53 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:26:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45A38C7B.9030302@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45AE160D.8050404@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:26:53 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Truly James he speaks the truth. This *is* the time to remove that
> div0/div1 weirdness.
>
>
> div1: "contains a first-level subdivision of the front, body, or
> back
> of a text (the largest, if
> div0 is not used, the second largest if it is)."
>
> sigh.
>
> OK, whats the case for the defence?
>
(a) History. Precedent. Early doc processing systems use h0 and some h1
as the biggest class; if you were brung up on a "start from zero" one,
it's less of a headache.
(b) Safety net. If you start from div1, as sure as eggs is eggs, some
time you will find you need a bigger grouping, so you'll be glad that
div0 is there.
These both look pretty tenuous to me, but they're the best I can think
of. Any others?

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Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 07:26:57 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 17 07:30:21 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:30:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] FAND Message-ID: <45AE16DD.6030705@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:30:21 +0000
Can I ask for a decision on Monday about my proposal to
sort out numbered divs in the body/front/back? It is
encapsulated in the ODD at
http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tei/trunk/P5/Test/testfand.odd?revision=1971&view=markup
In summary:
* define 3 newmodel classes: divLike, divNLike, divGenLike
* redefine front/body/back to allow 3 basic models
1. paragraphs
2. divLike + divGenLike
3. divNLike + divGenLike
* have divNLike consisting of div0 only. people who want to start with
div1 need to do a customization
I am really very keen to not have this drag on. Maybe we can
start 2007 with some decision-making? :-}
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 07:30:33 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 17 07:31:54 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:31:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AE160D.8050404@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45AE173A.1050303@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:31:54 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
>
> (a) History. Precedent. Early doc processing systems use h0 and some
> h1 as the biggest class; if you were brung up on a "start from zero"
> one, it's less of a headache.
dont buy that one
>
> (b) Safety net. If you start from div1, as sure as eggs is eggs, some
> time you will find you need a bigger grouping, so you'll be glad that
> div0 is there.
if you have that problem, you should be using
......

-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 07:32:04 EST

From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Jan 17 11:50:45 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:50:45 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AE173A.1050303@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17838.21477.770977.617028@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:50:45 -0500
I was under the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that a large part of
the decision to support both and (just as with the
decision to support both numbered and unnumbered
s)q was because
different communities within TEI were quite stuck on one or the
other. In many ways the TEI is a set of community consensus
Guidelines (as opposed to a standard from on high or a set of best
practices, although I daresay it has elements of those, too).
I doubt those communities have changed their love of one over the
other, although perhaps with the advent of XSLT they are more willing
to have local vs interchange formats that differ.
Of course, now that our pricing structure is based on "div0" as the
most expensive, we can't very well start at "div1", can we? :-)
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Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 11:50:49 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 17 12:08:03 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:08:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <17838.21477.770977.617028@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45AE57F3.7070702@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:08:03 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> I was under the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that a large part of
> the decision to support both and (just as with the
> decision to support both numbered and unnumbered
s)q was because
> different communities within TEI were quite stuck on one or the
> other.
Indeed. I am sure that is so, but let's look forward.
What shall we do now, in P5? Is it your
belief that we should leave things as they are?
Sorry to push, but I want to avoid the outcome
of "yes it's not right as it is, but we're not sure
what to do, so we'll keep brooding over it
and maybe look again next year".
You know my views on the "it's ready
when it's ready" philosophy :-}
ebastian
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Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 12:14:43 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Jan 17 12:22:22 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:22:22 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Agenda item? Message-ID: <1169054542.7389.38.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:22:22 -0700
Hi all,
I have a topic that I hesitantly mention: tei:choice. My own conviction
is that we have too narrow a content model for the element. But I
understand that it may be too late to revisit the question?
I've been asking around to find a consensus on when an element of P5 has
been "decided" and only minor modifications are considered possible, but
we apparently don't have one.
If anybody thinks this is worth discussing at this telco or the next, I
can prepare something.
-dan
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 12:16:23 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Jan 17 12:28:22 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:28:22 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AE57F3.7070702@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17838.23734.957343.873006@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 12:28:22 -0500
You asked for the case for the defense (of both a and
as top-level division). I am presenting one: users requested it, and
unless we find out that they've changed their minds, that's an
argument to keep them both.
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Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 12:28:26 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Jan 17 13:47:13 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:47:13 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <17838.23734.957343.873006@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45AE6F31.4050504@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:47:13 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> You asked for the case for the defense (of both a and
> as top-level division). I am presenting one: users requested it, and
> unless we find out that they've changed their minds, that's an
> argument to keep them both.
>
>
What evidence do you have for this? I don't recall any formal or
informal consultation on this specific issue, but maybe that's my memory.
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Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 12:35:08 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Jan 17 13:52:17 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:52:17 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Agenda item? In-Reply-To: <1169054542.7389.38.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45AE7061.80200@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:52:17 +0000
Dan O'Donnell wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have a topic that I hesitantly mention: tei:choice. My own conviction
> is that we have too narrow a content model for the element. But I
> understand that it may be too late to revisit the question?
>
> I've been asking around to find a consensus on when an element of P5 has
> been "decided" and only minor modifications are considered possible, but
> we apparently don't have one.
I seem to have missed out on this "asking around": were you seeking
Council's opinion on the procedural issue of when/how element
definitions get fixed, or on the specific technical issue of whether the
current proposal for the content model of needs attention?
>
> If anybody thinks this is worth discussing at this telco or the next, I
> can prepare something.
>
On which topic?

> -dan
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Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 12:40:12 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 17 12:40:12 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:40:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <17838.23734.957343.873006@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45AE5F7C.603@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:40:12 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> You asked for the case for the defense (of both a and
> as top-level division). I am presenting one: users requested it, and
> unless we find out that they've changed their minds, that's an
> argument to keep them both.
>
I can see the argument, but I think it does not
hold water, because we have not done
any quantifiable user consultation for many
years; how would we know if they have changed their
minds?
you can test the water on TEI-L, but that's
pretty subjective.

Sebastian
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Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 12:46:51 EST

From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Jan 17 13:21:21 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:21:21 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Agenda item? In-Reply-To: <45AE7061.80200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1169058081.13385.15.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:21:21 -0700
On Wed, 2007-17-01 at 18:52 +0000, Lou Burnard wrote:
> Dan O'Donnell wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have a topic that I hesitantly mention: tei:choice. My own conviction
> > is that we have too narrow a content model for the element. But I
> > understand that it may be too late to revisit the question?
> >
> > I've been asking around to find a consensus on when an element of P5 has
> > been "decided" and only minor modifications are considered possible, but
> > we apparently don't have one.
>
> I seem to have missed out on this "asking around": were you seeking
> Council's opinion on the procedural issue of when/how element
> definitions get fixed, or on the specific technical issue of whether the
> current proposal for the content model of needs attention?
>
> >
> > If anybody thinks this is worth discussing at this telco or the next, I
> > can prepare something.
> >
>
> On which topic?
The one I labelled as "a topic" above: tei:choice. The "asking around"
about procedure, as the expression suggests, was informal and so didn't
involve more than a couple of casual email exchanges with some old TEI
hands in the course of other business: before proposing that we revisit
choice, I thought I better check if it was maybe too late or if there
was a procedure to indicate that certain topics were now closed or open.
The answer I got back each time was that there seemed not to be a formal
process in place covering this at council. It was suggested to me that
the procedural aspect might be worth discussing at council as well,
though that's at best a secondary interest of mine here. We seem to be
doing all right on the whole and I'm just interested in choice.
-dan
>
>
> > -dan
>
> _______________________________________________
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> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 13:15:23 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Jan 17 13:37:40 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:37:40 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Agenda item? In-Reply-To: <1169058081.13385.15.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45AE6CF4.9080201@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:37:40 +0000
Well, afaik the procedure for proposing changes to TEI P5 is like this:
You write a feature request and send it to the sourceforge site. The
editors review the list of outstanding requests and make proposals to
council as to their disposition. Council then agrees (or not) and the
change gets made (or not); or council can suggest there should be a new
work item.
Since you say you didnt want to talk about the procedure, but rather
about choice -- why not write that feature request?

Dan O'Donnell wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-17-01 at 18:52 +0000, Lou Burnard wrote:
>
>> Dan O'Donnell wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I have a topic that I hesitantly mention: tei:choice. My own conviction
>>> is that we have too narrow a content model for the element. But I
>>> understand that it may be too late to revisit the question?
>>>
>>> I've been asking around to find a consensus on when an element of P5 has
>>> been "decided" and only minor modifications are considered possible, but
>>> we apparently don't have one.
>>>
>> I seem to have missed out on this "asking around": were you seeking
>> Council's opinion on the procedural issue of when/how element
>> definitions get fixed, or on the specific technical issue of whether the
>> current proposal for the content model of needs attention?
>>
>>
>>> If anybody thinks this is worth discussing at this telco or the next, I
>>> can prepare something.
>>>
>>>
>> On which topic?
>>
>
> The one I labelled as "a topic" above: tei:choice. The "asking around"
> about procedure, as the expression suggests, was informal and so didn't
> involve more than a couple of casual email exchanges with some old TEI
> hands in the course of other business: before proposing that we revisit
> choice, I thought I better check if it was maybe too late or if there
> was a procedure to indicate that certain topics were now closed or open.
>
> The answer I got back each time was that there seemed not to be a formal
> process in place covering this at council. It was suggested to me that
> the procedural aspect might be worth discussing at council as well,
> though that's at best a secondary interest of mine here. We seem to be
> doing all right on the whole and I'm just interested in choice.
>
> -dan
>
>
>>
>>> -dan
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tei-council mailing list
>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>>
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From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Jan 17 13:52:42 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:52:42 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Agenda item? In-Reply-To: <45AE6CF4.9080201@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1169059962.16650.12.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:52:42 -0700
On Wed, 2007-17-01 at 18:37 +0000, Lou Burnard wrote:
> Well, afaik the procedure for proposing changes to TEI P5 is like this:
> You write a feature request and send it to the sourceforge site. The
> editors review the list of outstanding requests and make proposals to
> council as to their disposition. Council then agrees (or not) and the
> change gets made (or not); or council can suggest there should be a new
> work item.
>
> Since you say you didnt want to talk about the procedure, but rather
> about choice -- why not write that feature request?
Sure, if that's how we do it. I'll just follow the model used to get the
DIV business we've been discussing added to the agenda (I thought I had
been). Since this is a current topic that has apparently gone through a
similar process, I'll presumably have no trouble taking it as my model.
I also didn't actually say I didn't want to talk about procedure. I
called it a secondary issue for me next to my interest in choice. If
we've got one, then so be it.
-dan

>
>
>
>
>
> Dan O'Donnell wrote:
> > On Wed, 2007-17-01 at 18:52 +0000, Lou Burnard wrote:
> >
> >> Dan O'Donnell wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> I have a topic that I hesitantly mention: tei:choice. My own conviction
> >>> is that we have too narrow a content model for the element. But I
> >>> understand that it may be too late to revisit the question?
> >>>
> >>> I've been asking around to find a consensus on when an element of P5 has
> >>> been "decided" and only minor modifications are considered possible, but
> >>> we apparently don't have one.
> >>>
> >> I seem to have missed out on this "asking around": were you seeking
> >> Council's opinion on the procedural issue of when/how element
> >> definitions get fixed, or on the specific technical issue of whether the
> >> current proposal for the content model of needs attention?
> >>
> >>
> >>> If anybody thinks this is worth discussing at this telco or the next, I
> >>> can prepare something.
> >>>
> >>>
> >> On which topic?
> >>
> >
> > The one I labelled as "a topic" above: tei:choice. The "asking around"
> > about procedure, as the expression suggests, was informal and so didn't
> > involve more than a couple of casual email exchanges with some old TEI
> > hands in the course of other business: before proposing that we revisit
> > choice, I thought I better check if it was maybe too late or if there
> > was a procedure to indicate that certain topics were now closed or open.
> >
> > The answer I got back each time was that there seemed not to be a formal
> > process in place covering this at council. It was suggested to me that
> > the procedural aspect might be worth discussing at council as well,
> > though that's at best a secondary interest of mine here. We seem to be
> > doing all right on the whole and I'm just interested in choice.
> >
> > -dan
> >
> >
> >>
> >>> -dan
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> tei-council mailing list
> >> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
> >>
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 13:46:43 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 17 14:20:55 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:20:55 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Agenda item? In-Reply-To: <1169054542.7389.38.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45AE7717.8070903@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:20:55 +0000
I think this is a Bug Report on Sourceforge, not a Feature Request. You
are going
to argue that the content model for is wrong, that's all, right?
But it is essential that the reports on SF be dealt with, and closed.
Unclosed feature requests going back to 2004 make us look, er, rather silly.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 14:21:11 EST
From djbpitt+tei at pitt.edu Wed Jan 17 14:23:45 2007 From: djbpitt+tei at pitt.edu (David J Birnbaum) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:23:45 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <17838.23734.957343.873006@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45AE77C1.3040005@pitt.edu>
From: David J Birnbaum
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:23:45 -0500
Dear TEI Council,
> You asked for the case for the defense (of both a and
> as top-level division). I am presenting one: users requested it, and
> unless we find out that they've changed their minds, that's an
> argument to keep them both.
>
The TEI Guidelines strive mightily to be flexible, allowing multiple
ways to do the same thing because different user subcommunities have
different preferences. The arguments for doing what users want are
self-evident and certainly sensible, but we pay a price for this, which
has been brought to our attention recently in the discussion of how
, , and do or do not play well together.
I'd like to suggest that TEI Council not be excessively shy about
expressing a strong opinion (when we can more or less agree on one)
about best practice, and about steering the Guidelines in that
direction. Users who want to do something differently have the ability
to customize, so nobody is suggesting that deviating from out-of-the-box
TEI (to the extent that there is such a thing) means exile from the TEI
community, but to the extent that we prioritize making it easier for
people to do whatever they please, we move toward guidelines that don't
guide as much as they might.
In arguing that we should not be excessively flexible I certainly don't
mean to suggest that we should be capriciously dictatorial. Rather, I
think "some people want to do it this way" is an argument that should be
treated with respect, but it is not something that puts an end to all
argument.
Best,
David
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From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Jan 17 16:13:16 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:13:16 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Agenda item? In-Reply-To: <45AE7717.8070903@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1169068396.24012.3.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:13:16 -0700
On Wed, 2007-17-01 at 19:20 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> I think this is a Bug Report on Sourceforge, not a Feature Request. You
> are going
> to argue that the content model for is wrong, that's all, right?
Conceptually wrong. I.e. that it should be much broader in what it can
contain. I don't know if that is best considered a bug, or a feature
request, or anything else.
>
> But it is essential that the reports on SF be dealt with, and closed.
> Unclosed feature requests going back to 2004 make us look, er, rather silly.
Indeed.
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 16:07:16 EST
From James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Jan 17 17:25:06 2007 From: James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 22:25:06 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AE77C1.3040005@pitt.edu> Message-ID: <45AEA242.5000707@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 22:25:06 +0000
David J Birnbaum wrote:
> I'd like to suggest that TEI Council not be excessively shy about
> expressing a strong opinion (when we can more or less agree on one)
> about best practice, and about steering the Guidelines in that
> direction. Users who want to do something differently have the ability
> to customize, so nobody is suggesting that deviating from out-of-the-box
> TEI.
Yes, and this reminds me that I have yet to finish my straw-man rewrite of the
Conformance chapter. Mea Culpa. I will indeed do so, but it got delayed by the
topic re-erupting on TEI-L. I'll try to take the issues mentioned there into
consideration when doing so. Also, I'll not be able to participate in the
upcoming council teleconference, my apologies.
Although I'm much more of a
or if necessary kind of person than a
, I am happy to compromise and support Sebastian's proposal of starting at
by default and needing a (quite easy) customisation to change that if
is preferred.
> In arguing that we should not be excessively flexible I certainly don't
> mean to suggest that we should be capriciously dictatorial. Rather, I
> think "some people want to do it this way" is an argument that should be
> treated with respect, but it is not something that puts an end to all
> argument.
Others' comments on whether switching to default start for those using
numbered divs would seriously inconvenience the TEI community, leads me to a
suggestion. How about I undertake a survey (something like surveymonkey) on
behalf of the TEI which is then publicised on TEI-L to gauge the community's
strength of feeling on this issue. Feel free to suggest questions to ask. If
the council decides this is a good idea, I'll happily do so within the next month.
-James
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 17:25:22 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 17 18:00:52 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:00:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AEA242.5000707@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45AEAAA4.7080906@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:00:52 +0000
James Cummings wrote:
>
> How about I undertake a survey (something like surveymonkey) on
> behalf of the TEI which is then publicised on TEI-L to gauge the
> community's strength of feeling on this issue. Feel free to suggest
> questions to ask. If the council decides this is a good idea, I'll
> happily do so within the next month.
it would be interesting to see what reaction we got, to test such a system.
you could offer a choice between
1. remove all numbered divs from the TEI
2. remove div0 entirely
3. always start with div0
4. allow div0 or div1 as starting point
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 18:00:56 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 17 18:05:48 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:05:48 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AEA242.5000707@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45AEABCC.9020506@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:05:48 +0000
James Cummings wrote:
>
> Yes, and this reminds me that I have yet to finish my straw-man
> rewrite of the Conformance chapter. Mea Culpa. I will indeed do so,
> but it got delayed by the topic re-erupting on TEI-L. I'll try to
> take the issues mentioned there into consideration when doing so.
> Also, I'll not be able to participate in the upcoming council
> teleconference, my apologies.
It would be immensely good if we had to draft to discuss a few days
before the
telco next week. Then we could see at the telco whether there was any
kind of consensus.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 18:06:00 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Wed Jan 17 22:33:47 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Wittern Christian) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:33:47 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AEAAA4.7080906@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45AEEA9B.7090206@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Wittern Christian
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:33:47 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> you could offer a choice between
>
> 1. remove all numbered divs from the TEI
> 2. remove div0 entirely
> 3. always start with div0
> 4. allow div0 or div1 as starting point
>
To which I would like to add
5. numbered divs always start with div1
ince that is what I prefer. Given the (perceived) demographics of the
TEI community, I would expect this to be a popular one. And you should
make it clear that everybody gets to choose only one!
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 22:34:33 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Wed Jan 17 22:39:44 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Wittern Christian) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:39:44 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] Agenda item? In-Reply-To: <45AE6CF4.9080201@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45AEEC00.2010406@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Wittern Christian
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:39:44 +0900
Lou Burnard wrote:
> Well, afaik the procedure for proposing changes to TEI P5 is like this:
> You write a feature request and send it to the sourceforge site. The
> editors review the list of outstanding requests and make proposals to
> council as to their disposition. Council then agrees (or not) and the
> change gets made (or not); or council can suggest there should be a new
> work item.
This is how it is supposed to work, however we are not that good at
implementing this protocol. Closing a topic is still something that
rarely happens, viz. div0 vs div1. But there is no obvious way to
improve that...
All the best,
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 22:41:36 EST

From Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz Wed Jan 17 22:54:00 2007 From: Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz (Conal Tuohy) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:54:00 +1300 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <[tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis)> Message-ID:
From: Conal Tuohy
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 16:54:00 +1300
Christian wrote:
> Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> > you could offer a choice between
> >
> > 1. remove all numbered divs from the TEI
> > 2. remove div0 entirely
> > 3. always start with div0
> > 4. allow div0 or div1 as starting point
> >
>
> To which I would like to add
> 5. numbered divs always start with div1
Isn't that the same as option 2?
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Received on Wed Jan 17 2007 - 22:54:12 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Thu Jan 18 00:00:45 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Wittern Christian) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:00:45 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45AEFEFD.10809@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Wittern Christian
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:00:45 +0900
Conal Tuohy wrote:
> Christian wrote:
>>> 2. remove div0 entirely
>> To which I would like to add
>> 5. numbered divs always start with div1
> Isn't that the same as option 2?
Ah, you are right. Sometimes it is better first to think, then to
write. Sorry for the noise. Now I'll try to do some thinking...
All the best,
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 18 2007 - 00:01:34 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 18 04:00:03 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:00:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AEEA9B.7090206@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45AF3713.6070809@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:00:03 +0000
Wittern Christian wrote:
>
>>
>> 1. remove all numbered divs from the TEI
>> 2. remove div0 entirely
>> 3. always start with div0
>> 4. allow div0 or div1 as starting point
>>
>
> To which I would like to add
> 5. numbered divs always start with div1
*and* keep div0? I assumed my 2. impluied your 5.
ebastian
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Received on Thu Jan 18 2007 - 04:06:48 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Thu Jan 18 04:34:42 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:34:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AEEA9B.7090206@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45AF3F32.4080905@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:34:42 +0000
Wittern Christian wrote:
> Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>> you could offer a choice between
>>
>> 1. remove all numbered divs from the TEI
>> 2. remove div0 entirely
>> 3. always start with div0
>> 4. allow div0 or div1 as starting point
>>
>
> To which I would like to add
> 5. numbered divs always start with div1
>
> since that is what I prefer. Given the (perceived) demographics of
> the TEI community, I would expect this to be a popular one. And you
> should make it clear that everybody gets to choose only one!
>
> Christian
>
>
>
Is it wise to base this decision solely on "perceived demographics"?
WHat's the basis for the perception? Where is the evidence?Those chaps
in NZ have barely started their survey yet, let alone produced any results.
I note also that we have in the past made far more radical changes in P5
(id to xml:id, lang to xml:lang) on the basis of other criteria, and
even (in the latter case) in the teeth of voluble opposition from the
"perceived demographic".
Personally I would like to have a good technical argument for making (or
not making) any of these changes.

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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 18 04:38:58 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:38:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AF3F32.4080905@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45AF4032.9040100@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:38:58 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
>
> Personally I would like to have a good technical argument for making
> (or not making) any of these changes.
The technical argument is simple. If we don't do something about the
content model of //,
the promise of the TEI that you can remove more or less any element and
things will sort themselves
is out the window.
So jump off the fence, and choose your preference:
1. leave things as they are. tell Ron to read Syd's solutions on the wiki
2. rewrite the body content model in such a clever way that it
survives the loss of div0 and div1 in DTD
3. model-ize the divXX things so that things come out in the wash (my
proposal)
4. rewrite the ODD processor to make a clean DTD whatever happens
5. all of 2, 3 and 4 simultaneously
I can't believe that we need more info, and more discussion, we've already
spent what seems like years of my life in this area, publicly or
privately...
Solutions 2. and 4. require resources, so anyone choosing those should
explain who is going to do that work (clue: it aint me...).
You could always call for a vote, Christian :-}
Sebastian
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Received on Thu Jan 18 2007 - 04:45:30 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Thu Jan 18 04:55:03 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:55:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AF4032.9040100@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45AF43F7.3060107@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:55:03 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> The technical argument is simple. If we don't do something about the
> content model of //,
> the promise of the TEI that you can remove more or less any element
> and things will sort themselves
> is out the window.
>
> So jump off the fence, and choose your preference:
>
> 1. leave things as they are. tell Ron to read Syd's solutions on the
> wiki
> 2. rewrite the body content model in such a clever way that it
> survives the loss of div0 and div1 in DTD
> 3. model-ize the divXX things so that things come out in the wash (my
> proposal)
> 4. rewrite the ODD processor to make a clean DTD whatever happens
> 5. all of 2, 3 and 4 simultaneously
That's quite a different set of proposals from the set that Christian
just presented! Forgive me if too much tropical sun has blunted my
perceptions, but he seemed to be proposing abolition of one or more of
the various flavours of div, not making them into distinct classes.
If the latter is the issue before us, we've already agreed that
references to classes should be preferred above references to elements
wherever possible, so what's the argument about?

>
> I can't believe that we need more info, and more discussion, we've
> already
> spent what seems like years of my life in this area, publicly or
> privately...
>
> Solutions 2. and 4. require resources, so anyone choosing those should
> explain who is going to do that work (clue: it aint me...).
>
> You could always call for a vote, Christian :-}
>
> Sebastian
>
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 18 04:53:27 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:53:27 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AF43F7.3060107@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45AF4397.90700@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:53:27 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
> That's quite a different set of proposals from the set that Christian
> just presented!
eh? thats a different, orthogonal, discussion (and it was my set)
> Forgive me if too much tropical sun has blunted my perceptions, but he
> seemed to be proposing abolition of one or more of the various
> flavours of div, not making them into distinct classes.
the div0 vs div1 debate follows on if you adopt my proposal for classing
divXXXs, but it
can also be had in isolation.
>
> If the latter is the issue before us, we've already agreed that
> references to classes should be preferred above references to elements
> wherever possible, so what's the argument about?
if you class the divXXX things as per my proposal, you end up allowing
... ... in a document, because I
drew the line at separate classes for div0 and div1.
I commend a thorough read of testfand.odd.
Sebastian
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From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 18 05:02:02 2007 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:02:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AF3F32.4080905@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45AF459A.60101@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:02:02 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
> Is it wise to base this decision solely on "perceived demographics"?
> What's the basis for the perception? Where is the evidence?
Hence my proposed survey. I suggest I post a survey and give people a month to
answer it. While I wouldn't want to make such a change *solely* on statistical
results of such a survey, since we have a technical need for it, if the survey's
findings point to one of the possible solutions as preferable then at least that
is some evidence. Of course, we should be aware that the survey might produce
information that only complicates the matter. (If for example there is a 60/40
split, do we go with the 60? Surely 40% of respondents would represent a
significant portion of the community and thus we'd be back to trying to
implement both.) Basically the question is whether people want to continue to
support use of both div0 and div1 as a starting element. If people are fine
with numbered divs starting only at div0, then that is fine. If a strong
contingent feel they should also be allowed to start at div1, then it is more
problematic.
> Those chaps
> in NZ have barely started their survey yet, let alone produced any results.
The University of Sydney is in Australia.
> I note also that we have in the past made far more radical changes in P5
> (id to xml:id, lang to xml:lang) on the basis of other criteria, and
> even (in the latter case) in the teeth of voluble opposition from the
> "perceived demographic".
True, and the only reason I'm suggesting the survey is that it might shed some
light on how strongly the community feels about this. (i.e. is this a lone
voice crying in the wilderness or a general consensus)
> Personally I would like to have a good technical argument for making (or
> not making) any of these changes.
I think Sebastian has already made the technical argument for making these
changes (and the argument for not making them being that we're unable to have
people cleanly remove numbered divs should they desire).
-James
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 18 2007 - 05:02:14 EST
From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Thu Jan 18 05:09:10 2007 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:09:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AF459A.60101@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45AF4746.4000802@kcl.ac.uk>
From: Arianna Ciula
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:09:10 +0000
Could we have a public summary of the 'technical argument' that people
interested can have a look at before replying to the survey?
James: I am happy to help out with the survey if you like.
Arianna
James Cummings wrote:
> Lou Burnard wrote:
>> Is it wise to base this decision solely on "perceived demographics"?
>> What's the basis for the perception? Where is the evidence?
>
> Hence my proposed survey. I suggest I post a survey and give people a month to
> answer it. While I wouldn't want to make such a change *solely* on statistical
> results of such a survey, since we have a technical need for it, if the survey's
> findings point to one of the possible solutions as preferable then at least that
> is some evidence. Of course, we should be aware that the survey might produce
> information that only complicates the matter. (If for example there is a 60/40
> split, do we go with the 60? Surely 40% of respondents would represent a
> significant portion of the community and thus we'd be back to trying to
> implement both.) Basically the question is whether people want to continue to
> support use of both div0 and div1 as a starting element. If people are fine
> with numbered divs starting only at div0, then that is fine. If a strong
> contingent feel they should also be allowed to start at div1, then it is more
> problematic.
>
>> Those chaps
>> in NZ have barely started their survey yet, let alone produced any results.
>
> The University of Sydney is in Australia.
>
>> I note also that we have in the past made far more radical changes in P5
>> (id to xml:id, lang to xml:lang) on the basis of other criteria, and
>> even (in the latter case) in the teeth of voluble opposition from the
>> "perceived demographic".
>
> True, and the only reason I'm suggesting the survey is that it might shed some
> light on how strongly the community feels about this. (i.e. is this a lone
> voice crying in the wilderness or a general consensus)
>
>> Personally I would like to have a good technical argument for making (or
>> not making) any of these changes.
>
> I think Sebastian has already made the technical argument for making these
> changes (and the argument for not making them being that we're unable to have
> people cleanly remove numbered divs should they desire).
>
> -James
-- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London Strand London WC2R 2LS (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 18 2007 - 05:11:47 EST
From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 18 05:12:11 2007 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:12:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AEABCC.9020506@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45AF47FB.4020206@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:12:11 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> James Cummings wrote:
>>
>> Yes, and this reminds me that I have yet to finish my straw-man
>> rewrite of the Conformance chapter. Mea Culpa. I will indeed do so,
>> but it got delayed by the topic re-erupting on TEI-L. I'll try to
>> take the issues mentioned there into consideration when doing so.
>> Also, I'll not be able to participate in the upcoming council
>> teleconference, my apologies.
> It would be immensely good if we had to draft to discuss a few days
> before the
> telco next week. Then we could see at the telco whether there was any
> kind of consensus.
I do apologise that this will not happen before the telco. Today and Sunday I
will be preparing for a meeting in Amsterdam. (And said meeting is why I won't
be able to make the telco.) Friday and Saturday I have previous personal
commitments. I am happy to promise to submit a draft to council within a month
(if that) of the telco though.
Apologies,
-James
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 18 2007 - 05:12:24 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Thu Jan 18 07:24:51 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Wittern Christian) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:24:51 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] solving unnumbered divs (bis) In-Reply-To: <45AF3F32.4080905@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45AF6713.1050703@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Wittern Christian
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:24:51 +0900
Lou Burnard wrote:
> Wittern Christian wrote:
>> Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>>> you could offer a choice between
>>>
>>> 1. remove all numbered divs from the TEI
>>> 2. remove div0 entirely
>>> 3. always start with div0
>>> 4. allow div0 or div1 as starting point
>>>
>>
>> To which I would like to add
>> 5. numbered divs always start with div1
>>
>> since that is what I prefer. Given the (perceived) demographics of
>> the TEI community, I would expect this to be a popular one. And you
>> should make it clear that everybody gets to choose only one!
>>
>> Christian
> Is it wise to base this decision solely on "perceived demographics"?
> WHat's the basis for the perception? Where is the evidence?Those chaps
> in NZ have barely started their survey yet, let alone produced any results.
>
> I note also that we have in the past made far more radical changes in P5
> (id to xml:id, lang to xml:lang) on the basis of other criteria, and
> even (in the latter case) in the teeth of voluble opposition from the
> "perceived demographic".
>
> Personally I would like to have a good technical argument for making (or
> not making) any of these changes.
Well, I guess you noted the tongue in cheek. But as it happens, this is
supposed to go into a questionaire to solicit some answers to this very
questions -- with results that might be quite different from what I
expected. And BTW, the original set originated with Sebastian, it is
not something I made up.
Best, Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 18 2007 - 07:25:55 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Jan 18 10:45:03 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:45:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] another content model for body Message-ID: <45AF95FF.3090405@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:45:03 +0000
OK, I think is now no longer controversial.
It keeps all the div/div1/div0 distinctions,
and also allows a 4th way, with paragraph-like
objects before optional divisions. It is now
not far off the existing model.
Personally, I think my original iteration
using Schematron was a lot more fun.
Tested for situations with div deleted, div1/div0 deleted,
and all div-like objects removed (testfand, testfand2,
testfand3 in Sourceforge)

































































































































-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 18 2007 - 10:45:07 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Thu Jan 18 19:47:01 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Wittern Christian) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:47:01 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning Message-ID: <45B01505.6040601@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Wittern Christian
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:47:01 +0900
Dear Council members,
In preparation for the telecon, I tried to take a stock of open issues
for P5. The first stop was the Kyoto Declaration:
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcw08.xml?style=printable
In the essential department, we have
(1) * chapter review, including review of examples
(2) * decision on module dependency architecture made, and if yes
implemented
(3) * remove instructions on how to invoke TEI DTD from each chapter
(4) * New user needs to have an easy way to generate customization
ODD and generate schemas
(5) * text of prose matches specs
(6) * *Specs frozen! :-)
(7) * Dictionary rewrite completed
(8) * Modification and Conformance chapters rewritten
I was wondering where we stand on these issues and how much work needs
to be done. Since there is some dependency on this, it seems to me that
we should see how much is needed to achieve (6). Also, (1) could
commence on chapters that are already checked off with regards to the spec.
Can someone remind me what we decided with respect to (2)?
Laurent, what is the status of the Dictionary chapter. When can we
expect a draft?
As to (8), that is on James' table now.
It seems to me that we should start (1), which will take a while to
complete, as soon as possible. What are the preconditions to start
here? Who will be in charge of this? These are questions we should adress.
We also need a better way to track the progress -- Maybe we should start
a Wiki page for this?
As to other open issues, I have on my list (from combing the tei-council
@lists and the minutes of our telecons, initials are the lead on for the
item):
* schematron rules (SR?)
* simplifying of dates (SB)
* 'limited phrase' (SB)
* biblItems etc (JW)
* PB followup (MD & DP)
* infrastructure for examples (LB, SB)
* FS request updates (LB, SB)
* div0, div1 decision (SB)
* choice content model
(anything else?)
All the best,
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 18 2007 - 19:47:43 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Thu Jan 18 19:53:21 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Wittern Christian) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:53:21 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] DRAFT Agenda for the TEI Council teleconference on January 23, 2007 at 1200 UTC Message-ID: <45B01681.4080407@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Wittern Christian
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:53:21 +0900
DRAFT Agenda for the TEI Council teleconference on January 23, 2007 at
1200 UTC

Expected to participate:
Syd Bauman, David Birnbaum, Tone Merete Bruvik, Lou Burnard, Arianna
Ciula, James Cummings, Matthew Driscoll, Dan O'Donnel, Dot Porter,
Sebastian Rahtz, Laurent Romary, Conal Tuohy, John Walsh, Christian
Wittern
Sent apologies:
JC
============================================================
How to connect
We will use the highspeedconferencing.com service this time.
Participants can use their skype account (www.skype.com) or regular
phones to call. When calling via skype, *please use a headset*. If
in doubt, it might be better to call via regular phone. Numbers as follow:
Calling from the US...
call # 1-712-432-4000
(long distance charges apply).
Calling from Europe, call:
Austria 0820 400 01562
Belgium 0703 59 984
France 0826 100 266
Germany 01805 00 7620
UK 0870 119 2350
The Conference Room Number is 5877524
============================================================
Please read through the following. Wherever a report is requested, a
brief note to the list before the call is much appreciated and will
help us use the time during the call more effectively.
============================================================
1) Minutes, work items, progress since last meeting:
http://www.tei-c.org.uk/Council/tcm27.xml?style=printable
Please look at the action items and report progress here before the
meeting!
============================================================
2) Workgroups monitoring:
A) PB
Dot & Matthew, please report on developments here.
WG TEI website: http://www.tei-c.org.uk/Activities/PB/index.xml
B) PERS
Matthew, please give us an update on the preparations for the meeting etc.
C) I18N
Sebastian, please give us a brief report on where we stand here.

============================================================
3) Road to P5:
I am circulating a separete message lining out some of the issues I
see. I would like to go away from this telecon with a clearer view of
the road ahead and how we get there.

============================================================
4) Meetings
Council 2007: Berlin, preparations? Do we need more meetings?
next call: Mid to end March 2007
============================================================
5) Other business TBA

============================================================

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 18 2007 - 19:54:01 EST

From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Jan 18 20:29:09 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 20:29:09 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B01505.6040601@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <17840.7909.19929.739280@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 20:29:09 -0500
Perfect timing, Christian. I was just about to post a "where I am w/
dates" item. I'll intersperse it, below.

> * schematron rules (SR?)
This one is SB.
> * simplifying of dates (SB)
I am working on this issue right now. The results of our TEI-L poll
about and are that absolutely no one except
EpiDoc said they even use them at all, let alone the children we are
going to eliminate. Since EpiDoc is already a significant
customization (P4 at the moment), with significant talent available,
they can easily add whatever they need back. (And I think it likely
that they will actually find other mechanisms when they move to P5.)
Thus I have no problem yanking 'em out. So I am right now in the process
of removing the , , , , ,
, , and elements.
Once done with that, I plan to post a summary of outstanding issues
with some suggestions, probably over the weekend.
> * 'limited phrase' (SB)
> * biblItems etc (JW)
> * PB followup (MD & DP)
> * infrastructure for examples (LB, SB)
Could someone remind me what this means?
> * FS request updates (LB, SB)
> * div0, div1 decision (SB)
Did you really mean me?
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Received on Thu Jan 18 2007 - 20:29:12 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Thu Jan 18 22:02:28 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Wittern Christian) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:02:28 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <17840.7909.19929.739280@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45B034C4.5080306@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Wittern Christian
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:02:28 +0900
Syd Bauman wrote:
> Perfect timing, Christian. I was just about to post a "where I am w/
> dates" item. I'll intersperse it, below.
>
Great, thanks. In fact I felt this was terribly late...
>> * schematron rules (SR?)
> This one is SB.
Good.
>
>> * simplifying of dates (SB)
> I am working on this issue right now. The results of our TEI-L poll
> about and are that absolutely no one except
> EpiDoc said they even use them at all, let alone the children we are
> going to eliminate. Since EpiDoc is already a significant
> customization (P4 at the moment), with significant talent available,
> they can easily add whatever they need back. (And I think it likely
> that they will actually find other mechanisms when they move to P5.)
> Thus I have no problem yanking 'em out. So I am right now in the process
> of removing the , , , , ,
> , , and elements.
Great.
>
> Once done with that, I plan to post a summary of outstanding issues
> with some suggestions, probably over the weekend.
>
Fine. It is probably as much as we can get, given the timeframe.
>> * 'limited phrase' (SB)
>> * biblItems etc (JW)
>> * PB followup (MD & DP)
>> * infrastructure for examples (LB, SB)
> Could someone remind me what this means?
That should also be SR here, the issue is how to make multilingual
examples possible -- e.g. where to put them, and what to change in the
toolchain.
>
>> * FS request updates (LB, SB)
>> * div0, div1 decision (SB)
> Did you really mean me?
No, SR as well. It seems I got a bit confused halfway through.
So, the updated and corrected list is
* schematron rules (SB)
* simplifying of dates (SB)
* 'limited phrase' (SB)
* biblItems etc (JW)
* PB followup (MD & DP)
* infrastructure for examples (LB, SR)
* FS request updates (LB, SB)
* div0, div1 decision (SR)
* choice content model (?)
All the best,
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 18 2007 - 22:03:14 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Thu Jan 18 22:13:12 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Wittern Christian) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:13:12 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] Budget news, PERS meeting Message-ID: <45B03748.2080202@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Wittern Christian
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:13:12 +0900
Council members,
I just got news from Dan that the Board approved a rollover of unspend
budget of 2006 for 2007. If I understand correctly, we thus have roughly
$4k more than last year to spend , i.e. $28k. This is a one time, no
precedent-setting affair under the assumption that P5 will finally go
out this year and thus needs some additional care. We might be able to
squeeze in a second f2f meeting of the Council or a subcommittee modeled
on the Oxford class meeting if that turns out to be necessary -- this is
assuming that the April meeting in Berlin will be significantly less
expensive than last years Kyoto meeting.
Apart from that, and much more concrete, there has been a request from
Matthew Driscoll to hold the PERS meeting in Vilnius. He expects this
will set us back around $4-5k. This would also go out of this above
mentioned budget. I would like to approve this, but am open to other
opinions from the Council. We will need to act quickly on this, so if
you disagree, please speek up now. I will set the cutoff time for
protests to Sunday evening 23:59 GMT, which will allow me to notify
Matthew of the results Monday morning JST.
All the best,
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 18 2007 - 22:13:52 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 19 03:54:08 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:54:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B01505.6040601@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45B08730.40901@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:54:08 +0000
Wittern Christian wrote:
> (1) * chapter review, including review of examples
> (2) * decision on module dependency architecture made, and if yes
> implemented
> (3) * remove instructions on how to invoke TEI DTD from each chapter
> (4) * New user needs to have an easy way to generate customization
> ODD and generate schemas
> (5) * text of prose matches specs
> (6) * *Specs frozen! :-)
> (7) * Dictionary rewrite completed
> (8) * Modification and Conformance chapters rewritten
>
> I was wondering where we stand on these issues and how much work needs
> to be done. Since there is some dependency on this, it seems to me that
> we should see how much is needed to achieve (6).
One absolute requirement here is to assess all outstanding bug reports
and feature
requests in SF, and deal with them one way or another. If, for example,
Dan is
going to raise issues about , that needs a quick agreement.
With my I18N hat on, there are now five groups translating
descriptions of specs with a delivery date of the autumn
at latest. I am taking it on trust therefore that the specs _are_
frozen to all intents and purposes.
The PERS activity will likely need some Specs adding. and dictionaries
of course.
> Also, (1) could
> commence on chapters that are already checked off with regards to the spec.
> Can someone remind me what we decided with respect to (2)?
>
I (think) we agreed it was unworkable and not probably needed. The immediate
requirement was met by the new model class facility to allow sequences
as well as alternations. I think we should let this one die a natural death
for now
> It seems to me that we should start (1), which will take a while to
> complete, as soon as possible. What are the preconditions to start
> here? Who will be in charge of this? These are questions we should adress.
>
agreed. someone has to drive this in a pretty strict way.
> We also need a better way to track the progress -- Maybe we should start
> a Wiki page for this?
>
I did wonder about running trac (http://trac.edgewall.org/) as an aide.
> * schematron rules (SR?)
>
what about them? support for them is implemented, but
I the reaction I got a few weeks ago seemed to
be against it. As I said then, I'd much rather implement
a div0/div/div1 thing using Schematron if we
accept its serious use
> * infrastructure for examples (LB, SB)
>
In my opinion, we have no resources to
deal with this. I think its a distraction this year.
> * div0, div1 decision (SB)
>
If you accept my model class reimplementation of ,
can we just agree to abide by the results of James and Ariana's
surveymonkey, and simply implement what they find out.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 19 2007 - 03:54:21 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jan 19 10:04:17 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:04:17 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B08730.40901@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17840.56817.452436.521530@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:04:17 -0500
> I am taking it on trust therefore that the specs _are_ frozen to
> all intents and purposes.
>
> The PERS activity will likely need some Specs adding. and dictionaries
> of course.
I do not think the specifications are in any way frozen. In addition
to those you've mentioned, just this week we have been discussing
possible significant changes in the , , and
specifications, and we will be discussing the revamping of dating
attributes. There are probably quite a few others, as well.
Not to mention that neither the editors nor the Council has announced
that they can be or are frozen.
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 19 11:17:53 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:17:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <17840.56817.452436.521530@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45B0EF31.7010204@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:17:53 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
>
> I do not think the specifications are in any way frozen.
in any way at all? out of 650, are more than 1% still
gelid?
> In addition
> to those you've mentioned, just this week we have been discussing
> possible significant changes in the , , and
> specifications
those are small details; bug fixes, really. They don't
affect the descriptions or semantics etc
> and we will be discussing the revamping of dating
> attributes.
details. You're zapping half a dozen elements,
and will clean up after you. I count that as frozen.
> There are probably quite a few others, as well.
>
Sorry, "probably quite a few" isn't good enough.
What others, precisely? if they are recorded
issues unresolved, let's list them, and solve them.
Of course there are always more and more issues
to find if we look hard enough, but the process must
end soon if we are to meet our commitments.
"What commitments", someone will ask?
Well, if you (all) don't think we have a *commitment* to deliver
TEI 5.0 completely ready for use by the TEI MM 2007,
then we ain't singing off the same song sheet.
> Not to mention that neither the editors nor the Council has announced
> that they can be or are frozen.
>
I didn't imply that. I said *I* regard them as frozen.
I propose a strawman timetable for us:
1st February: accept no more feature requests for 5.0
1st March: all Sourceforge bug reports and feature requests from before
Feb 1 closed or definitely put off for 5.1
1st April: all implementation resulting from those SF things complete
1st May: (after council meeting) technical freeze of specs, only
serious bug fixes allowed after that
I have a feeling you are all going to get fed up with me saying this,
but I feel very strongly that we cannot carry on in "ready when its ready"
mode. We need at least minimal project management here, and that includes
timetables and deadlines.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 19 2007 - 11:18:07 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Fri Jan 19 11:55:12 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:55:12 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B0EF31.7010204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1169225712.23841.14.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 09:55:12 -0700
On Fri, 2007-19-01 at 16:17 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Syd Bauman wrote:
> >
> Sorry, "probably quite a few" isn't good enough.
> What others, precisely? if they are recorded
> issues unresolved, let's list them, and solve them.
> Of course there are always more and more issues
> to find if we look hard enough, but the process must
> end soon if we are to meet our commitments.
>
> "What commitments", someone will ask?
>
> Well, if you (all) don't think we have a *commitment* to deliver
> TEI 5.0 completely ready for use by the TEI MM 2007,
> then we ain't singing off the same song sheet.
> > Not to mention that neither the editors nor the Council has announced
> > that they can be or are frozen.
> >
> I didn't imply that. I said *I* regard them as frozen.
>
> I propose a strawman timetable for us:
>
> 1st February: accept no more feature requests for 5.0
> 1st March: all Sourceforge bug reports and feature requests from before
> Feb 1 closed or definitely put off for 5.1
> 1st April: all implementation resulting from those SF things complete
> 1st May: (after council meeting) technical freeze of specs, only
> serious bug fixes allowed after that
>
> I have a feeling you are all going to get fed up with me saying this,
> but I feel very strongly that we cannot carry on in "ready when its ready"
> mode. We need at least minimal project management here, and that includes
> timetables and deadlines.
I agree. The board was quite serious about getting P5 done this year and
indeed had a "push money" line in the budget. The effort as currently
structured may not be sustainable much after this calendar year either,
as it is starting to take a toll on several major participants--or their
employers' patience. That's why I'd originally asked around to find out
when something is frozen.
Obviously it is a fine line: we also can't put out substandard work
either (not that that's ever been a TEI problem). And the Board and
several TEI partners seem quite interested in stability after P5 (i.e.
we should perhaps not move on to P6 right away if P6 means major
revisioning). Given the nature of what we are up, therefore, to perhaps
we should define "bug" to mean major conceptual issues with finished
work as well. What I mean by this is if somebody discovers a major flaw
in the underlying reasoning--something that would require us to move on
to P6.
I suspect from the above exchange that what we are really looking at is
agreeing on and formalising what we mean by frozen and what makes
something frozen: the things Syd mentions as not frozen fit Sebastian's
definition of frozen. Should process (or project management for the next
ten months--yikes!) be an agenda item after all? It certainly does seem
to me that we need to say "x is done--to propose changes, there needs to
be a serious issue involved."
-dan
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 19 2007 - 11:49:03 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Fri Jan 19 12:11:18 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:11:18 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Budget news, PERS meeting In-Reply-To: <45B03748.2080202@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <1169226678.23841.25.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:11:18 -0700
As an ex officio member, I believe I can still signal my lack of
protest. Speaking personally, I think it is a good idea.
-dan
On Fri, 2007-19-01 at 12:13 +0900, Wittern Christian wrote:
> Council members,
>
> I just got news from Dan that the Board approved a rollover of unspend
> budget of 2006 for 2007. If I understand correctly, we thus have roughly
> $4k more than last year to spend , i.e. $28k. This is a one time, no
> precedent-setting affair under the assumption that P5 will finally go
> out this year and thus needs some additional care. We might be able to
> squeeze in a second f2f meeting of the Council or a subcommittee modeled
> on the Oxford class meeting if that turns out to be necessary -- this is
> assuming that the April meeting in Berlin will be significantly less
> expensive than last years Kyoto meeting.
>
> Apart from that, and much more concrete, there has been a request from
> Matthew Driscoll to hold the PERS meeting in Vilnius. He expects this
> will set us back around $4-5k. This would also go out of this above
> mentioned budget. I would like to approve this, but am open to other
> opinions from the Council. We will need to act quickly on this, so if
> you disagree, please speek up now. I will set the cutoff time for
> protests to Sunday evening 23:59 GMT, which will allow me to notify
> Matthew of the results Monday morning JST.
>
> All the best,
>
> Christian
>
>
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 19 2007 - 12:05:06 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 19 12:10:24 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 17:10:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <1169225712.23841.14.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45B0FB80.4000600@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 17:10:24 +0000
The Birnbaum Declaration agreed last autumn covers
what it means to be P5 1.0, 1.1, 1.2 as opposed to P6,
I think.
My concern is that we are juggling too many
balls at the same time, without resources.
We won't get through the "Steps To P5"
if they all run in parallel, unless someone
here miraculously takes a 6 month sabbatical
and devotes themselves to TEI editing full-time.
So although of course there are circular
dependencies, let's at least try to clear
out things in sequence. In our meetings,
f2f or telco or email, we tend to have far
too many varied things on the agenda
at once....
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 19 2007 - 12:10:44 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jan 19 14:20:54 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 14:20:54 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B0EF31.7010204@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17841.6678.27216.694302@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 14:20:54 -0500
> Well, if you (all) don't think we have a *commitment* to deliver
> TEI 5.0 completely ready for use by the TEI MM 2007, then we ain't
> singing off the same song sheet.
Yes, we are singing off different sheets. Some may wonder, but I
think we are singing the same piece of music, at least, just
different arrangements, to carry the analogy too far.

> 1st February: accept no more feature requests for 5.0
This has already happened twice, and need not be repeated. Feature
requests submitted now would almost assuredly *not* be considered for
the 1.0 releaes of P5. (Sorry, Daniel.)
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From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Fri Jan 19 14:26:21 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:26:21 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <17841.6678.27216.694302@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <1169234781.5519.5.camel@localhost>
From: Daniel O'Donnell
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:26:21 -0700
On Fri, 2007-01-19 at 14:20 -0500, Syd Bauman wrote:
> > Well, if you (all) don't think we have a *commitment* to deliver
> > TEI 5.0 completely ready for use by the TEI MM 2007, then we ain't
> > singing off the same song sheet.
>
> Yes, we are singing off different sheets. Some may wonder, but I
> think we are singing the same piece of music, at least, just
> different arrangements, to carry the analogy too far.
>
>
> > 1st February: accept no more feature requests for 5.0
>
> This has already happened twice, and need not be repeated. Feature
> requests submitted now would almost assuredly *not* be considered for
> the 1.0 releaes of P5. (Sorry, Daniel.)
It's a dog's life! ;)
Frankly I suspected as much. I'm happier to see us progressing to 1.0
release than I am sad at not getting the right way of doing
choice--strong wink--into the release!
-dan
>
> _______________________________________________
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> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
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-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Associate Professor and Chair, Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Canada Vox: +1 403 329-2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 19 2007 - 14:26:27 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jan 19 23:19:30 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 23:19:30 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] , , and Message-ID: <17841.38994.991726.171153@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 23:19:30 -0500
Great minds think alike. (But are they right?)
I am in the midst of yanking out , , etc. from the
Guidelines. In doing so I re-worked several examples that use the
element. I found myself wondering if , which is
pretty much syntactic sugar for , should also be
ditched. Then I came across the following comment:

I don't think Michael ever used "shd", and I know I didn't, so I'm
giving Lou credit for this insight.

But perhaps this one is syntactic sugar sweet enough to keep. Here's
an example.

A week
before
the meeting

(Note that "P07D" is the ISO & W3C format for a period of seven
days.)

A week
before
the meeting

(Note that "d" is the symbol for "day" approved by CIPM for use with
SI units.)
is also used within and for the
same kind of thing, but it does not have the right attributes to
provide a regularized value. Thus I'm in favor of using
instead of for and .
If I had my druthers, I think I'd prefer to use dur= on in
alternation with the other three attributes:
element measure {
(
attribute dur { xsd:duration }?
|
(
attribute unit { data.enumerated }?,
attribute quantity { data.numeric }?,
attribute commodity { data.words }?,
)
),
etc.
}

At the moment I don't think ODD processors can handle that sort of
construct, so if we went this route we would probably want to enforce
it with a Schematron rule.

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From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sat Jan 20 04:59:58 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:59:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] , , and In-Reply-To: <17841.38994.991726.171153@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45B1E81E.6010809@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:59:58 +0000
1. If we are getting rid of the substructure of , then we're
getting rid of all of it, so it makes no difference whether you
represent old by or , it's still dead.
The element in particular really really has to go.
2. As it happens, yes we do have a way of representing a choice of
attributes in ODD. See
http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-attList.html. There
is a (not very good) example at 27.3.3.3 and we use it on eg
and

Syd Bauman wrote:
>
>
> But perhaps this one is syntactic sugar sweet enough to keep. Here's
> an example.
>
>
> A week
> before
> the meeting
>
>
> (Note that "P07D" is the ISO & W3C format for a period of seven
> days.)
>
>
> A week
> before
> the meeting
>
>
> (Note that "d" is the symbol for "day" approved by CIPM for use with
> SI units.)
>
> is also used within and for the
> same kind of thing, but it does not have the right attributes to
> provide a regularized value. Thus I'm in favor of using
> instead of for and .
>
> If I had my druthers, I think I'd prefer to use dur= on in
> alternation with the other three attributes:
>
> element measure {
> (
> attribute dur { xsd:duration }?
> |
> (
> attribute unit { data.enumerated }?,
> attribute quantity { data.numeric }?,
> attribute commodity { data.words }?,
> )
> ),
> etc.
> }
>
> At the moment I don't think ODD processors can handle that sort of
> construct, so if we went this route we would probably want to enforce
> it with a Schematron rule.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
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>
>
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From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Jan 20 07:51:25 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:51:25 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] , , and In-Reply-To: <45B1E81E.6010809@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17842.4173.302963.500608@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 07:51:25 -0500
> 1. If we are getting rid of the substructure of , then we're
> getting rid of all of it, so it makes no difference whether you
> represent old by or , it's still
> dead. The element in particular really really has to go.
No, actually, and were not in the list of
elements to be nuked. (The reasoning was that they are used inside
, too, I believe.)

> 2. As it happens, yes we do have a way of representing a choice of
> attributes in ODD. See
> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-attList.html.
> There is a (not very good) example at 27.3.3.3 and we use it on eg
> and
Right, but IIRC Sebastian has pointed out that this mechanism can
only be used to alternate two attributes, not one attribute with a
group of others or two groups. I am not sure whether this restriction
existed only back then, exists currently, or will in perpetuity.
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 20 09:31:59 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:31:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] , , and In-Reply-To: <17842.4173.302963.500608@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45B227DF.3070906@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:31:59 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
>> 2. As it happens, yes we do have a way of representing a choice of
>> attributes in ODD. See
>> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-attList.html.
>> There is a (not very good) example at 27.3.3.3 and we use it on eg
>> and
>>
>
> Right, but IIRC Sebastian has pointed out that this mechanism can
> only be used to alternate two attributes, not one attribute with a
> group of others or two groups. I am not sure whether this restriction
> existed only back then, exists currently, or will in perpetuity.
>
If you believe the attList specification allows what
you need, then I should implement it. I'm willing
to have a try, if its needed.
On the other hand, restrictions like this are
good candidates for Schematron, as you say.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Jan 20 2007 - 09:32:12 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sat Jan 20 10:38:23 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:38:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] , , and In-Reply-To: <45B227DF.3070906@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45B2376F.9070404@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 15:38:23 +0000
The specification says that an attList can contain any combination of
attRef, attDef, or attList, and that its org attribute determines
whether its children are to be regarded as forming a group or an
alternation. So I cannot for the life of me see what you might want that
the spec doesn't support.
If the current ODD processor doesn't support it, then it's a bug, and
should be documented.
HOWEVER, before we get all excited about using this wonderful facility,
I'd like to record my profound skepticism about the wisdom of allowing
@dur as an attribute on at all.

Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Syd Bauman wrote:
>>> 2. As it happens, yes we do have a way of representing a choice of
>>> attributes in ODD. See
>>> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-attList.html.
>>> There is a (not very good) example at 27.3.3.3 and we use it on eg
>>> and
>>>
>>
>> Right, but IIRC Sebastian has pointed out that this mechanism can
>> only be used to alternate two attributes, not one attribute with a
>> group of others or two groups. I am not sure whether this restriction
>> existed only back then, exists currently, or will in perpetuity.
>>
> If you believe the attList specification allows what
> you need, then I should implement it. I'm willing
> to have a try, if its needed.
>
> On the other hand, restrictions like this are
> good candidates for Schematron, as you say.
>
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From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Jan 20 10:55:36 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 10:55:36 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] , , and In-Reply-To: <45B227DF.3070906@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17842.15224.28276.20873@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 10:55:36 -0500
> If you believe the attList specification allows what you need, then
> I should implement it. I'm willing to have a try, if its needed.
I certainly think the specification allows this:












This states that a must have either both A1= and A2= or both
B1= and B2=, and can't have all four of them (or zero, one, or three
of them).
This could be expressed in RelaxNG as





















which in the compact syntax requires what always looks to me like an
extra layer of parenthesis, but makes sense when you think of the
outer parens as and the inner parens as :
element duck {
(
( attribute A1 { empty }, attribute A2 { empty } )
|
( attribute B1 { empty }, attribute B2 { empty } )
),
empty
}
What I'm not certain of is whether we want to change the
implementation to do what the specification permits, or change the
specification so that you can't do this. I lean towards the former,
but it may be more effort than it's worth.

> On the other hand, restrictions like this are good candidates for
> Schematron, as you say.
True. And although there are some disadvantages with using Schematron
(speed problems jump to mind), it does have the advantage of
providing a check for those who use DTDs.
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From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Jan 20 11:08:56 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:08:56 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] , , and In-Reply-To: <45B2376F.9070404@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17842.16024.499219.282091@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 11:08:56 -0500
> HOWEVER, before we get all excited about using this wonderful
> facility, I'd like to record my profound skepticism about the
> wisdom of allowing @dur as an attribute on at all.
I am also uneasy with putting a dur= on . But
simultaneously, I'm uneasy about expressing a span of time using dur=
if it is a
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sat Jan 20 11:26:48 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 16:26:48 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] , , and In-Reply-To: <17842.16024.499219.282091@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45B242C8.8040504@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 16:26:48 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> Perhaps isn't the right alternative to P4's ,
> but rather a(nother) nested
> really want to structure your relative times, you would use
>
> I was able to get online
>
> before
>
>
>
> and the rest of us would just use
>
>
>
>
That would make marginally more sense. But I stand by my original
assertion that we should drop as a child of
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 20 11:33:52 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 16:33:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] , , and In-Reply-To: <17842.15224.28276.20873@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45B24470.9060207@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 16:33:52 +0000
It's entirely likely that I have not implemented nested attlists
properly. Does gibberish
come out if you try it?
> nd although there are some disadvantages with using Schematron
>(speed problems jump to mind), it does have the advantage of
> providing a check for those who use DTDs.
I thought the argument was that the TEI mainstream can
cope with neither RELAXNG nor Schematron. If there
are people who can't/won't use RELAXNG but can use
Schematron, I am a little surprised. But maybe I misjudged
the mood. Another question for James/Arianna's monkey?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Jan 20 2007 - 11:33:56 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Sun Jan 21 20:44:37 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:44:37 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <17841.6678.27216.694302@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45B41705.9030807@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:44:37 +0900
Syd Bauman wrote:
>> Well, if you (all) don't think we have a *commitment* to deliver
>> TEI 5.0 completely ready for use by the TEI MM 2007, then we ain't
>> singing off the same song sheet.
> Yes, we are singing off different sheets. Some may wonder, but I
> think we are singing the same piece of music, at least, just
> different arrangements, to carry the analogy too far.
>
I hope that does not mean you disagree to the above statement. I also
see us firmly committed to have P5 1.0 working smoothly and to
everybodys delight by MM 2007.
Now, I see that we have disagreement about the details, e.g. what is
meant by specs frozen etc. My message indeed intended to get us closer
to understand how we can do what we have committed ourself to do. As
always, the problems may lie in the details. When we said in Kyoto,
"the specs have to be frozen", this was stating the obvious, namely that
we need to have stable specs in P5 in order to release this. However,
the specs are in fact not monolithic, but come in clusters and
individual items, with mutual dependency. While there is still some
last minute surgery going on in some quarters, I think we have to cordon
off some areas now and start to do the clean-up there, although we can't
declare the whole building finished.
>
>> 1st February: accept no more feature requests for 5.0
>
> This has already happened twice, and need not be repeated. Feature
> requests submitted now would almost assuredly *not* be considered for
> the 1.0 releaes of P5. (Sorry, Daniel.)
But we should not get carried away by sticking to the letter of some
protocol. If there are important issues that prevent from
being uses as it is, this is a bug that has to be fixed for 1.0. If we
decided to ask people to file bug reports through the SF feature request
channel (instead of the available bug report channel), we should still
accept them. In my book, the "call for feature requests" is what the
name suggest, namely a request for enhancements or new features in TEI.
It would be silly if we would stop listen to reports on problems that
exist within our existing framework. In fact, since there has been so
much underground change in P5 it seems likely that people will continue
to discover changes, for example in content models that where not
intended but are a result of the way we re-defined classes.

All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Jan 21 2007 - 20:45:23 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Sun Jan 21 20:48:42 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:48:42 +0900 Subject: PERS meeting (was Re: [tei-council] Budget news, PERS meeting) In-Reply-To: <45B102CB.3050605@pitt.edu> Message-ID: <45B417FA.9020105@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:48:42 +0900
David J Birnbaum wrote:
> Dear Christian (cc Council),
>
> No objection.
Thanks to all of you for supporting this. I hereby announce that the
Council encourages Matthew to go ahead with the planning for the Vilnius
meeting within the budget line of (at most) US$ 5000. Please report to
us on the details of the meeting and, in due time on the progress and
outcome. We all wish you a successfull and productive time.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Jan 21 2007 - 20:49:27 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Sun Jan 21 21:34:03 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:34:03 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B08730.40901@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45B4229B.4000003@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:34:03 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Wittern Christian wrote:
>> (1) * chapter review, including review of examples
>> (2) * decision on module dependency architecture made, and if yes
>> implemented
>> (3) * remove instructions on how to invoke TEI DTD from each chapter
>> (4) * New user needs to have an easy way to generate customization
>> ODD and generate schemas
>> (5) * text of prose matches specs
>> (6) * *Specs frozen! :-)
>> (7) * Dictionary rewrite completed
>> (8) * Modification and Conformance chapters rewritten
>>
>> I was wondering where we stand on these issues and how much work needs
>> to be done. Since there is some dependency on this, it seems to me that
>> we should see how much is needed to achieve (6).
> One absolute requirement here is to assess all outstanding bug reports
> and feature
> requests in SF, and deal with them one way or another. If, for example,
> Dan is
> going to raise issues about , that needs a quick agreement.
>
The editors are supposed to take care of the SF requests, we expect
updates on this in our telcon.
> With my I18N hat on, there are now five groups translating
> descriptions of specs with a delivery date of the autumn
> at latest. I am taking it on trust therefore that the specs _are_
> frozen to all intents and purposes.
In an ideal world, the specs would have the approval from the Council
before being handed for translation. I realize that reality has
overtaken us here, but it still is a situation that worries me. Maybe
we need a status flag on the specs that indicates its state ("proposed",
"implemented", "tested", "approved") to track its status?

> The PERS activity will likely need some Specs adding. and dictionaries
> of course.
For P5 as a whole "frozen" should mean the statement "we have all we
need and it looks like we want it" is true for every individual spec.
Whereas for every individual spec itself, it would suffice to be true
for this one spec to be counted as frozen. So in that sense, I think
(hope!) we should be able to say that more tahn 95% of the specs are
frozen.
>> We also need a better way to track the progress -- Maybe we should start
>> a Wiki page for this?
>>
> I did wonder about running trac (http://trac.edgewall.org/) as an aide.
Do you have experience with this? It certainly looks good, but we can't
throw too much ressources on getting this up and running.
>> * infrastructure for examples (LB, SB)
>>
> In my opinion, we have no resources to
> deal with this. I think its a distraction this year.
BUt we still need to be sure that it fits in our overall infrastructure
and leave a place where this can live.
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Jan 21 2007 - 21:34:55 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Sun Jan 21 21:41:14 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:41:14 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B0FB80.4000600@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45B4244A.5030504@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:41:14 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> My concern is that we are juggling too many
> balls at the same time, without resources.
If there are things that could be dropped (or postponed) without
affecting the whole, please indicate them.
> We won't get through the "Steps To P5"
> if they all run in parallel, unless someone
> here miraculously takes a 6 month sabbatical
> and devotes themselves to TEI editing full-time.

> So although of course there are circular
> dependencies, let's at least try to clear
> out things in sequence.
The dependencies are mostly on the sequence of handling individual
items, which should not prevent other things from being dealt with.
> In our meetings,
> f2f or telco or email, we tend to have far
> too many varied things on the agenda
> at once....
Very true. The main purpose of the bimonthly telcon is to track the
status of the various work items, which naturally means that there is a
lot. Maybe we should schedule addtional topical meetings that take care
of specific issues? We won't get more time out of a day, but maybe this
makes the handling more efficient?
All the best,
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Jan 21 2007 - 21:42:07 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Mon Jan 22 01:36:19 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:36:19 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <1169225712.23841.14.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45B45B63.7010108@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:36:19 +0900
Dan O'Donnell wrote:
> Obviously it is a fine line: we also can't put out substandard work
> either (not that that's ever been a TEI problem). And the Board and
> several TEI partners seem quite interested in stability after P5 (i.e.
> we should perhaps not move on to P6 right away if P6 means major
> revisioning). Given the nature of what we are up, therefore, to perhaps
> we should define "bug" to mean major conceptual issues with finished
> work as well. What I mean by this is if somebody discovers a major flaw
> in the underlying reasoning--something that would require us to move on
> to P6.
We did debate this to some degree several times, most extensively in
Kyoto last year. There is an obvious requirement to refine the model,
but we also need stability. Further maintenance of P5 would therefore
occur as subsequent (compatible) releases 1.01, 1.1 etc, whereas a major
new overhaul that might break existing stuff would eventually be
developped as P6 -- but this is not on our screen at the moment. In
fact the whole point behind the document prepared by David Birnbaum on
our request (http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcw09.xml?style=printable) is
to balance these two conflicting objectives and lay down our view of how
we want to deal with them.
>
> I suspect from the above exchange that what we are really looking at is
> agreeing on and formalising what we mean by frozen and what makes
> something frozen: the things Syd mentions as not frozen fit Sebastian's
> definition of frozen. Should process (or project management for the next
> ten months--yikes!) be an agenda item after all? It certainly does seem
> to me that we need to say "x is done--to propose changes, there needs to
> be a serious issue involved."
yes, so let' try to nail this down, by all means. We did occasionally
try to implement deadlines and milestones, but overall this was not very
successful. The major blame lies with the Chair of the Council, but
there are other bottlenecks as well. There is a document "P5 today:
current state of play
"(http://www.tei-c.org/Drafts/edw81.xml?style=printable), which was
intended as a means to give us a handle to see where we are in the
development. This document classifies each chapter into different
categories according to the type and degree of work that needs to be
done. Unfortunately, this has not been updated for 2 years, so it does
not reflect changes since then. Maybe we should start by confirming the
status of each chapter and see how many of them can be declared frozen.
Again, I think this document would also benefit from being moved to an
environment that allows easier updating to reflect the changes made.
This is part of what I would like to discuss under agenda item 3, road
to P5.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 01:37:08 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Jan 22 07:10:15 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 05:10:15 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] skype # Message-ID: <1169467815.4958.0.camel@caedmon>
From: Daniel O'Donnell
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 05:10:15 -0700
Hi guys,
I must have the wrong skype #: +99008275326922
-dan
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell_at_uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 07:10:34 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Jan 22 07:18:50 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 05:18:50 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Cancel that! Message-ID: <1169468330.4958.6.camel@caedmon>
From: Daniel O'Donnell
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 05:18:50 -0700
Oops. See you all tomorrow. What is the direct skype number for this
conference room, however? I tried skyping in but couldn't figure out
what to dial before the conference room number listed on the agenda.
-dan
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell_at_uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 07:18:53 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Jan 22 10:23:50 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:23:50 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] DRAFT Agenda for the TEI Council teleconference on January 23, 2007 at 1200 UTC In-Reply-To: <45B01681.4080407@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45B4D706.40106@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:23:50 +0000
Wittern Christian wrote:
>
> 1) Minutes, work items, progress since last meeting:
> http://www.tei-c.org.uk/Council/tcm27.xml?style=printable
> Please look at the action items and report progress here before the
> meeting!
>
I see two actions on me. One is to write a paper on the
model.header.phrase issue, and the other is to write a paper on the
issues surrounding multilingual examples.
I apologise for the fact that I haven't done either! In mitigation, wrt
the first of these, I agree with Syd
(http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2006/001986.html)
that he should proceed simply to define the class and make sure that it
works as expected: the issues don't really need re-stating. I see this
as continuing the class work we are already committed. We can refine the
details later.
On multilingual exemplification, as Sebastian has already indicated,
there isn't a lot we *need* do at the moment, which is why I haven't
given the matter a lot of thought. I am willing to do so in due course,
when we have a bit more translation activity underway. In particular, I
don't envisage any need to change the ODD system to support multilingual
examples, or to indicate the status of one example wrt others; if we
wanted to add such things, there is plenty of room for s etc.
within In fact, we probably ought to approach the problem at
a broader level by annotating the source of existing examples in a
consistent way.

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Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 10:24:04 EST

From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Mon Jan 22 11:18:45 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:18:45 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B4229B.4000003@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <17844.58341.865396.934650@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:18:45 -0500
This date attribute stuff is turning out to be a pain in the neck, so
only a very hasty few issues here:
* On our "commitment":
I probably missed something, then. I thought we were quite careful
at the MM in Victoria *not* to make a full-fledged commitment to
have P5 done by College Park. Especially with the Board and meeting
committees not sure if they want to have a 'P5 release' event in
Taiwan or not, I thought it was deliberate. Besides, Lou has
suggested, and I think he's right, that an additional face-to-face
meeting over chapter review is probably a good idea. That may (or
may not) make it quite difficult to be done with 1.0 by MM2007.
* On "frozen":
Perhaps Sebastian & I are simply using different definitions,
perhaps we completely disagree. Here's my basic take on the deal.
- "frozen" means r/o, and is a drastic step that is taken
immediately before publication
- none of P5 is currently frozen
- much of it is close -- I like the word SR used "gelid"
- I would guess some 95% of or Spec files are gelid, with a bunch
that are due for significant work, including (off the top of my
head) those affected by:
+ changes to dating attrs
+ limited-phrase decisions
+ handling regularization of names
+ handling spans
+ implementation of feature requests
+ whatever we end up doing about postscripts
+ new stuff on "placeography"
+ addition of Schematron rules
+ the div0, div1, div0|div1, or no numbered divs decision
+ potential changes to bibl, biblStruct, biblItem system
- I see that others have different takes on the definition of
"frozen" and such, and I am not at all insisting that we use
mine; but I wanted you to know where I was coming from and my
take on all this
* On feature requests and :
I do not think Daniel's idea is a bug-fix request at all, but a
feature request. I think we've already made two calls for feature
requests with cut-off dates, and we should *not* make a third. That
does not mean we should stop considering user input (e.g., bug
reports like "neither nor is not allowed between
s"), but that we should not be considering new feature
requests (like making
a permissible child of ). I
realize that in some cases there is a fine line between the two,
and room for disagreement, discussion, etc. But that doesn't change
my basic premise.
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 22 12:02:14 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:02:14 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <17844.58341.865396.934650@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45B4EE16.3020006@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:02:14 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> I probably missed something, then. I thought we were quite careful
> at the MM in Victoria *not* to make a full-fledged commitment to
> have P5 done by College Park.
Memories obviously vary. I thought we made an absolute
commitment to do this!
> Taiwan or not, I thought it was deliberate. Besides, Lou has
> suggested, and I think he's right, that an additional face-to-face
> meeting over chapter review is probably a good idea. That may (or
> may not) make it quite difficult to be done with 1.0 by MM2007.
>
why can't we have another f2f before November?
> - "frozen" means r/o, and is a drastic step that is taken
> immediately before publication
> - none of P5 is currently frozen
> - much of it is close -- I like the word SR used "gelid"
>
I agree, none of it is yet definitively r/o. Freezing, not frozen
> - I would guess some 95% of or Spec files are gelid, with a bunch
> that are due for significant work, including (off the top of my
> head) those affected by:
> + changes to dating attrs
> + limited-phrase decisions
>
these are in your ball court right now, correct?
> + handling regularization of names
> + handling spans
>
not sure about these
> + whatever we end up doing about postscripts
>
?
> + new stuff on "placeography"
>
aAgreed, thats dependent on rapid work in the Baltic
> + addition of Schematron rules
>
We don't _need_ to add any of these, do we? The facility
is there, we can use, or not, any time
> + the div0, div1, div0|div1, or no numbered divs decision
>
that's in hand, I hope.
> + potential changes to bibl, biblStruct, biblItem system
>
oh lord, isn't that dead yet ???
Anyway, even your list sounds eminently
doable between now and the Council f2f.
Just needs some hard graft.
We just work out a timetable week by week
for which issues to resolve in that week,
and stick to it. It's not rocket science....
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 12:02:27 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Jan 22 12:30:03 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:30:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B4EE16.3020006@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45B4F49B.6000104@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:30:03 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Syd Bauman wrote:
>> I probably missed something, then. I thought we were quite careful
>> at the MM in Victoria *not* to make a full-fledged commitment to
>> have P5 done by College Park.
> Memories obviously vary. I thought we made an absolute
> commitment to do this!
Me too.
>> Taiwan or not, I thought it was deliberate. Besides, Lou has
>> suggested, and I think he's right, that an additional face-to-face
>> meeting over chapter review is probably a good idea. That may (or
>> may not) make it quite difficult to be done with 1.0 by MM2007.
>>
> why can't we have another f2f before November?
I suggested a FTF meeting to review the state of chapters before
publication, yes. It could be any time before November.

In my opinion, the priorities are (still)
- triage of outstanding SF feature requests
- chapter review

The specific items Syd mentions are all things that could be resolved
quite quickly, I think, once we accept that it's more important to have
a finished product than a perfect one.
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Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 12:30:16 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 22 13:15:15 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:15:15 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] telco details Message-ID: <45B4FF33.8090403@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 18:15:15 +0000
From Skype call +99008278525675
In the US, call 1-712-432-4000
Calling from Europe, call
In Austria: 0820 400 01562
In Belgium: 0703 59 984
In France: 0826 100 266
In Germany 01805 00 7620
In UK: 0870 119 2350
Enter Conference Room Number : 5326922
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 13:15:29 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Mon Jan 22 14:06:53 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:06:53 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] telco details In-Reply-To: <45B4FF33.8090403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17845.2893.511611.763191@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:06:53 -0500
CW> The Conference Room Number is 5877524
SR> Enter Conference Room Number : 5326922
Which? (Or do we get to choose?)
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Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 14:06:59 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Jan 22 14:39:40 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:39:40 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <17844.58341.865396.934650@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <1169494780.26853.14.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:39:40 -0700
On Mon, 2007-22-01 at 11:18 -0500, Syd Bauman wrote:
> * On feature requests and :
> I do not think Daniel's idea is a bug-fix request at all, but a
> feature request. I think we've already made two calls for feature
> requests with cut-off dates, and we should *not* make a third. That
> does not mean we should stop considering user input (e.g., bug
> reports like "neither nor is not allowed between
>
s"), but that we should not be considering new feature
> requests (like making
a permissible child of ). I
> realize that in some cases there is a fine line between the two,
> and room for disagreement, discussion, etc. But that doesn't change
> my basic premise.
Happy to be put in my place. I know a couple of other people are
interested in this specific question, so I'll try to talk to them over
the next week about launching a feature request for 1.x.
-dan

>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 14:33:09 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 22 15:12:36 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:12:36 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] telco details In-Reply-To: <17845.2893.511611.763191@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45B51AB4.6030709@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:12:36 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> CW> The Conference Room Number is 5877524
> SR> Enter Conference Room Number : 5326922
>
> Which? (Or do we get to choose?)
>
*my room is definitely 5326922*
Christian, did you register another room?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 15:12:51 EST
From dporter at uky.edu Mon Jan 22 15:15:25 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:15:25 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] telco details In-Reply-To: <17845.2893.511611.763191@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <96f3df640701221215v4f3fd5c6ucd662c73668edd0e@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:15:25 -0500
If we use both rooms, will we get twice as much done?
On 1/22/07, Syd Bauman edu> wrote:
> CW> The Conference Room Number is 5877524
> SR> Enter Conference Room Number : 5326922
>
> Which? (Or do we get to choose?)
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>

-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 15:15:30 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 22 15:17:02 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:17:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] DRAFT Agenda for the TEI Council teleconference on January 23, 2007 at 1200 UTC In-Reply-To: <45B4D706.40106@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45B51BBE.2030902@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:17:02 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
>
> On multilingual exemplification, as Sebastian has already indicated,
> there isn't a lot we *need* do at the moment, which is why I haven't
> given the matter a lot of thought. I am willing to do so in due course,
> when we have a bit more translation activity underway.
bear in mind that we have no example translation
scheduled. the target is descriptions for now. The
urgency would be if we needed to change
the ODD spec, and there is no current
indication that we need to do so. There is a need
for some rules about managing examples,
and processes to be scripted, but do we see
a need for different markup?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 15:17:15 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 22 15:46:49 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:46:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B41705.9030807@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45B522B9.1080009@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:46:49 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
> While there is still some last minute surgery going on in some
> quarters, I think we have to cordon off some areas now and start to do
> the clean-up there, although we can't
> declare the whole building finished.
it makes initial sense to me to do this by module. Obviously namesdates
still has scaffolding on it, while textstructure probably just needs
some last bits of painting. If we can declare some modules clean,
we can simultaneously check the prose and do any last minute
screen of the specs.
What we *must* have is a clear schedule of affected areas;
that's why finishing the SF work is so important. We don't
want any unexpected change to msdescription popping
up there. If there are 20 or 30 unresolved things, get them
listed, work on them, kill them one by one. Don't let them
get up again.
> In fact, since there has been so much underground change in P5 it
> seems likely that people will continue to discover changes, for
> example in content models that where not intended but are a result of
> the way we re-defined classes.
>
>
Sure, that'll always be true. We can assume a degree of risk
in anything we do.
If I was drawing up a list of risks which would stop the "Finish P5 by
October 1st" project from completing, unexpected bugs with wide impact
found by users would come in relatively low. A bigger risk is dependency
on volunteer or unscheduled labour; the greatest risk is, I would
say, that no-one uses P5 when we are done. If we were a business, that
would knock us dead, it would like no-one buying Windows Vista.
It might amuse you to know that I used the conversion TEI to XML
as my case study for a course on project management some years ago.
Building up these lists of risks and so on was quite illuminating.
Perhaps I should bore you all with a SWOT analysis?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 15:47:09 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Jan 22 15:53:25 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:53:25 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B522B9.1080009@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1169499205.26853.78.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:53:25 -0700
On Mon, 2007-22-01 at 20:46 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Perhaps I should bore you all with a SWOT analysis?
Would it be a less useful than boring analysis? I'd like to know!
-dan
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 15:52:58 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 22 15:53:51 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:53:51 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B4229B.4000003@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45B5245F.5040704@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:53:51 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
>
> In an ideal world, the specs would have the approval from the Council
> before being handed for translation. I realize that reality has
> overtaken us here, but it still is a situation that worries me. Maybe
> we need a status flag on the specs that indicates its state ("proposed",
> "implemented", "tested", "approved") to track its status?
>
It worries me a little too; but I am also confident that I can work out
for any given spec which of the translations is out of date
at any given time. It isn't completely easy, but doable.
>
>> I did wonder about running trac (http://trac.edgewall.org/) as an aide.
>>
>
> Do you have experience with this? It certainly looks good, but we can't
> throw too much ressources on getting this up and runnin
>
I could justify a bit of work on this (Lou, as part of assessments for
software palette), but there is one flaw - it can't link to the Subversion
on Sourceforge. I *could* set it up to work for 6 months on
its own Subversion, copied from SF, and keep them in sync, but
I am not keen :-} Or we could use it without Subversion.
Is anyone else interested in mechanical assistance like this?
ie taking 50 open issues and managing them in an adhoc
system until they are fixed?

-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 15:54:05 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 22 15:56:38 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:56:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B4244A.5030504@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45B52506.4060804@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:56:38 +0000
> Maybe we should schedule addtional topical meetings that take care of
> specific issues?
we could try. but it will not work until we have a firm
culture within our group of accepting actions as
firm commitments with deadlines, and sticking
to them. I think I can say truthfully that we are all
fairly bad at meeting our actions :-}
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 15:56:43 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Jan 22 16:20:13 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:20:13 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B5245F.5040704@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1169500813.2854.8.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:20:13 -0700
If there is a culture problem on council--and I'm a terrible
procrastinator as well--then we need to try and change the culture for
the year. It is relatively imperative, as I understand things, that we
get through to P5 1.0 this year.
I've been going through the board minutes and while there is no magic
phrase--"We absolutely must have P5 out this year"--there is a lot of
discussion about the sustainability of the current efforts beyond 2007
(and not much hope that we will be able to). The pressure is external as
well as internal and affect both funding and cooperation with other
agencies, so it is not simply a matter of finding small amounts of extra
money.
In addition, the Board is currently working on a model for the TEI in a
post P5 world with a relatively clear idea that we are talking about
"starting next year."
I wonder if flagging items along the lines proposed here would not be
doable without taking too much time away from actual guidelines work. It
may be a very good practice as we close in on the end--and save us some
time. I'd imagine editorial judgement is required for a final call, but
we might be able to delegate somebody to go through and do a rough
sorting first?
What say?
-dan

On Mon, 2007-22-01 at 20:53 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Christian Wittern wrote:
> >
> > In an ideal world, the specs would have the approval from the Council
> > before being handed for translation. I realize that reality has
> > overtaken us here, but it still is a situation that worries me. Maybe
> > we need a status flag on the specs that indicates its state ("proposed",
> > "implemented", "tested", "approved") to track its status?
> >
> It worries me a little too; but I am also confident that I can work out
> for any given spec which of the translations is out of date
> at any given time. It isn't completely easy, but doable.
> >
> >> I did wonder about running trac (http://trac.edgewall.org/) as an aide.
> >>
> >
> > Do you have experience with this? It certainly looks good, but we can't
> > throw too much ressources on getting this up and runnin
> >
> I could justify a bit of work on this (Lou, as part of assessments for
> software palette), but there is one flaw - it can't link to the Subversion
> on Sourceforge. I *could* set it up to work for 6 months on
> its own Subversion, copied from SF, and keep them in sync, but
> I am not keen :-} Or we could use it without Subversion.
>
> Is anyone else interested in mechanical assistance like this?
> ie taking 50 open issues and managing them in an adhoc
> system until they are fixed?
>
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 16:19:45 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 22 16:23:26 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:23:26 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <1169499205.26853.78.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45B52B4E.107@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:23:26 +0000
Dan O'Donnell wrote:
>
>> Perhaps I should bore you all with a SWOT analysis?
>>
>
> Would it be a less useful than boring analysis? I'd like to know!
>
>
Actually, I think we already did the SWOT in Victoria, in our
Board meeting, informally.
In summary, for the project "P5 by October 1st":
Strengths: makes it look as if the Consortium can deliver stuff;
allows members to start using it; frees resources for other things
Weaknesses: if it isn't polished and consistent it makes us look bad
if we announce it and fail to finish, we look fools;
if we fall behind, morale suffers badly and volunteer
labour drops out
Opportunities: we can take the TEI to a new level of
interoperability if we get the mechanism right
Threats: The editorial work of the TEI is delegated to two people;
if one or both fall behind schedule we have no backup arranged.
The editors can only do their work based on volunteer labour of
others - this may dry up. The Council may reach deadlock in
discussing an issue and fail to resolve it in time.

and so on. Any ideas on mitigating the threats, or
adding to the strengths and opportunities?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 16:23:47 EST

From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Mon Jan 22 17:23:37 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:23:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] date attributes: summary, problems, and some suggestions Message-ID: <200701222223.l0MMNblR024839@perseus.services.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:23:37 -0500 (EST)
First, a listing of the attributes that are directly involved with
dating. ("dating" as in "timing", not as in "courtship" :-)

States of Play, P4
------ -- ----- --
calendar=
certainty=
value=

State of Play, P5
----- -- ----- --
att.datePart ( value=, dur= )
att.editLike ( cert= )
att.datable ( notBefore=, notAfter=, from=, to= )
att.typed ( type=, subtype= )
calendar=
precision=

Problems
--------
* Some are distressed by the fact that attributes that are of the
same datatype (data.temporal) and serve similar functions have
different names, in particular:
value= of ,

Choosing one of these requires some thought and discussion. Up front I
can only say that I don't like the 'attribute level' solution. It's
just too confusing for the average user, most of whom have little or
nothing to gain. I.e., to borrow a phrase from Perl, while it does
make the hard things possible, it does not make the easy things easy.
The others all do, presuming we make simple format dates the default
for the class or datatype level.

Notes
-----
[1] Lou is arguing that we drop the element altogether.
Although I'm interested in arguments for keeping it, it's hard to
see what purpose it serves that couldn't be handled equally well
by typed use of ,

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Jan 22 17:55:42 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:55:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <1169500813.2854.8.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45B540EE.6080504@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:55:42 +0000
If you want to see what a new low-cost tracking system
looks like, try http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac.cgi
your first name and your first name will get you in
(unless I forgot you..., tell me if so)
report errors to me
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 17:55:59 EST
From Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz Mon Jan 22 19:41:58 2007 From: Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz (Conal Tuohy) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:41:58 +1300 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <[tei-council] open issues and planning> Message-ID:
From: Conal Tuohy
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:41:58 +1300
We use trac internally @ the NZETC, too. It's a very nice tool, and it
has nice integration with Subversion. What (else) does it offer that
sourceforge's system doesn't?
Con
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tei-council-bounces_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> [mailto:tei-council-bounces_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Sebastian Rahtz
> Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2007 11:56
> To: daniel.odonnell_at_uleth.ca
> Cc: TEI Council
> Subject: Re: [tei-council] open issues and planning
>
> If you want to see what a new low-cost tracking system
> looks like, try http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac.cgi
>
> your first name and your first name will get you in
> (unless I forgot you..., tell me if so)
>
> report errors to me
>
> --
> Sebastian Rahtz
>
> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
>
> OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
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Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 19:42:13 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Mon Jan 22 20:05:24 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:05:24 +0900 Subject: Please use this to call in (Re: [tei-council] telco details) In-Reply-To: <45B4FF33.8090403@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45B55F54.5080006@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:05:24 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> From Skype call +99008278525675
> In the US, call 1-712-432-4000
> Calling from Europe, call
> In Austria: 0820 400 01562
> In Belgium: 0703 59 984
> In France: 0826 100 266
> In Germany 01805 00 7620
> In UK: 0870 119 2350
>
> Enter Conference Room Number : 5326922
>
Well, to avoid the confusion of last time, this time I did set up my own
room and announced it in the agenda. However, since your room looks
much nicer (and has already proved usable), I am happy to be your guest
tonight. So the above is the one we expect to use at high noon GMT today.
All the best,
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 20:06:12 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Mon Jan 22 20:26:24 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:26:24 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: <45B4F49B.6000104@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45B56440.1020209@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:26:24 +0900
Lou Burnard wrote:
> Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>> Syd Bauman wrote:
>>> I probably missed something, then. I thought we were quite careful
>>> at the MM in Victoria *not* to make a full-fledged commitment to
>>> have P5 done by College Park.
>> Memories obviously vary. I thought we made an absolute
>> commitment to do this!
>
> Me too.
You already know my take on this. Sorry, Syd, but this time its for real!
>>>
>> why can't we have another f2f before November?
>
> I suggested a FTF meeting to review the state of chapters before
> publication, yes. It could be any time before November.
>
As you noticed in the budget note, I am already trying to clear the way
for this. Late August might be a good time for this.
>
> In my opinion, the priorities are (still)
>
> - triage of outstanding SF feature requests
That's on the editors plate
> - chapter review
Do you mean "internal review by Council members" or do you want to farm
it out to external reviewers?
> The specific items Syd mentions are all things that could be resolved
> quite quickly, I think, once we accept that it's more important to have
> a finished product than a perfect one.
Well said. The most important thing for me would be to make sure that we
have got the structure right, so that the upper floors can be built,
decorated and populated in due time, without causing the lower courts to
collapse.
The "I18N example infrastructure" for example is such a case where I
think we might not be able to built it right now, but we do not want to
realize that we have to take some supporting walls down to get there
once it's time has come. (And in my view it does in fact have some
urgency since some people now translating might want to hand us some of
their examples for inclusion in the main source pretty soon -- I18N is
one of the major strengths of P5 and we would be foolish to do this
halfheartedly).
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 20:27:12 EST
From Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz Mon Jan 22 23:58:27 2007 From: Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz (Conal Tuohy) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:58:27 +1300 Subject: [tei-council] egXML and namespaces in TEI Message-ID:
From: Conal Tuohy
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:58:27 +1300
Can anyone explain the rationale for the guideline on namespaces in
? I am quite confused as to how (or why) it works. Frankly, it
seems wrong to me, but I'm not sure, since I don't grasp its purpose.
http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-egXML.html
"The element's contents should be marked as belonging to the namespace
http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples if they are to be validated against the
TEI scheme; if the content is well-formed XML from some other namespace,
it must be enclosed in a CDATA marked section. If the content is not
well-formed XML, the more general element should be used in
preference."
How does the use of the http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples namespace help
with validation? It seems odd to me to define another namespace (no pun
intended), because the element names in that namespace are (I assume)
the same as those defined in the namespace http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0/
Also, why must non-TEI-namespaced examples be quoted in a CDATA section?

I note also that the source ODD files have the egXML elements in the
example namespace, although the note above says to put the egXML
element's CONTENTS in that namespace. For example, if you look at the
definition of catDesc:
http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/*checkout*/tei/trunk/P5/Source/Spe
cs/catDesc.xml
The parent exemplum element is supposed to contain an element called
egXML in the TEI namespace, but instead it contains an element called
egXML in the "TEI example" namespace. I am pretty sure this is an error.
One final thing: the "TEI example" namespace URL
http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples produces a 404. It would be nice to
have a document there, perhaps with a link to the documentation for
egXML.
Cheers
Con
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Received on Mon Jan 22 2007 - 23:58:46 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 23 04:23:16 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 09:23:16 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] open issues and planning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45B5D404.8010806@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 09:23:16 +0000
Conal Tuohy wrote:
> We use trac internally @ the NZETC, too. It's a very nice tool, and it
> has nice integration with Subversion. What (else) does it offer that
> sourceforge's system doesn't?
>
don't know. I just wanted to look at an internal thing
we could use to fix up the next 9 months.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 04:23:31 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 23 05:42:46 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:42:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] egXML and namespaces in TEI In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45B5E6A6.2090103@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:42:46 +0000
Conal Tuohy wrote:
> "The element's contents should be marked as belonging to the namespace
> http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples if they are to be validated against the
> TEI scheme; if the content is well-formed XML from some other namespace,
> it must be enclosed in a CDATA marked section. If the content is not
> well-formed XML, the more general element should be used in
> preference."
>
this may need a rewrite. itself
needs to be in the target namespace, otherwise you
cannot just cut and paste stuff into it.
> How does the use of the http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples namespace help
> with validation? It seems odd to me to define another namespace (no pun
> intended), because the element names in that namespace are (I assume)
> the same as those defined in the namespace http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0/
>
true. /Examples is just a copy of /1.0 - but how
else do we manage it?
> Also, why must non-TEI-namespaced examples be quoted in a CDATA section?
>
they don't have to be in generality.
>
> I note also that the source ODD files have the egXML elements in the
> example namespace, although the note above says to put the egXML
> element's CONTENTS in that namespace. For example, if you look at the
> definition of catDesc:
> http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/*checkout*/tei/trunk/P5/Source/Spe
> cs/catDesc.xml
> The parent exemplum element is supposed to contain an element called
> egXML in the TEI namespace, but instead it contains an element called
> egXML in the "TEI example" namespace. I am pretty sure this is an error.
>
no. itself is in the examples namespace,
for good or bad
> One final thing: the "TEI example" namespace URL
> http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples produces a 404. It would be nice to
> have a document there, perhaps with a link to the documentation for
> egXML.
>
true.
I think what's needed is a better description of
is supposed to work. I guess I should write it.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 05:42:58 EST
From dporter at uky.edu Tue Jan 23 06:55:25 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 06:55:25 -0500 Subject: Please use this to call in (Re: [tei-council] telco details) In-Reply-To: <45B55F54.5080006@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <96f3df640701230355y470e1eaaub9d892d9ff2d9708@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 06:55:25 -0500
Christian and Council, I'm running a bit late and will probably call
in about 10 minutes into the meeting. Sorry for the late notice, talk
to you all soon.
Dot
On 1/22/07, Christian Wittern zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> wrote:
> Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> > From Skype call +99008278525675
> > In the US, call 1-712-432-4000
> > Calling from Europe, call
> > In Austria: 0820 400 01562
> > In Belgium: 0703 59 984
> > In France: 0826 100 266
> > In Germany 01805 00 7620
> > In UK: 0870 119 2350
> >
> > Enter Conference Room Number : 5326922
> >
>
> Well, to avoid the confusion of last time, this time I did set up my own
> room and announced it in the agenda. However, since your room looks
> much nicer (and has already proved usable), I am happy to be your guest
> tonight. So the above is the one we expect to use at high noon GMT today.
> All the best,
>
> Christian
>
>
> --
>
> Christian Wittern
> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
> 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>

-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 06:55:29 EST

From jawalsh at indiana.edu Tue Jan 23 07:51:02 2007 From: jawalsh at indiana.edu (John A. Walsh) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 07:51:02 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] updated biblItem document Message-ID: <549E8212-4302-475D-8756-A4723FC806CE@indiana.edu>
From: John A. Walsh
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 07:51:02 -0500
Hi Council,
I've updated the biblItem document at http://ella.slis.indiana.edu/
~jawalsh/tei/biblItem.html (and http://ella.slis.indiana.edu/~jawalsh/
tei/biblItem.xml) with some ODD, rnc, and instance examples.
John
-- | John A. Walsh | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | www: | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 edu> _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 07:51:16 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 23 08:47:58 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:47:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] egXML Message-ID: <45B6120E.5030901@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:47:58 +0000
I propose that the long description of this be reworded as
follows:

The element itself is in
the namespace type="ns">http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples.
The TEI Guidelines use the same namespace for the body of the
example itself, and they are validated against the TEI scheme by the
production process of the TEI. User extensions or other schemas
may this use this
namespace, or any other, for the content of egXML.
The content may also be well-formed enclosed in a CDATA marked
section. If the content is not well-formed XML, the more general
eg element should be used in preference.


Does this upset anyone? I have committed it to SF, but it
can obviously be changed ad lib.
The reason for having in the funny namespace is to allow
us to say

quoth the Raven, neverore

without having to tinker with the element. It
makes the cut and paste a lot easier.
This setup was done some years ago, for what seemed like
good reasons, and it may be that I am just used to it
despite its madness. It is also implemented, which
is a non-trivial issue at this point :-}
However, if anyone (especially Conal, since he is looking
at it) finds this weird, speak up now.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 08:48:11 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 23 08:52:08 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:52:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] content model of body etc Message-ID: <45B61308.4080001@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:52:08 +0000
Does anyone care to discuss this further? otherwise I propose that it
be given to Lou and Syd to make an executive decision on in the near
future, and implement if necessary.
This isn't about div vs div0 vs div1 (we are leaving that with James and
Ariana
to consult The Users), but about model class-ing the existing
setup.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 08:52:20 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Jan 23 09:06:50 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 09:06:50 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] content model of body etc In-Reply-To: <45B61308.4080001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17846.5754.722320.172317@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 09:06:50 -0500
> Does anyone care to discuss this further?
Yes, I do. I won't get to it today, but will take a careful look Wed
hopefully post by Thu. At first glance missing a few model.glabals,
and has an extra nesting level, but looks good. (Have you tested it w
non-DIV removals? I remember being vaguely suspicious that removing
macro.component would cause non-determinism, but I can't remember
why and I got too embroiled in dates to test it myself.)
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Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 09:06:56 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 23 10:43:49 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:43:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] content model of body etc In-Reply-To: <17846.5754.722320.172317@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45B62D35.5090004@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:43:49 +0000
Sorry, I answered Senbastian's note before seeing this. Naturally, I am
perfectly happy to wait for you to resolve your vague suspicions. Any
particular Thursday?
Syd Bauman wrote:
>>Does anyone care to discuss this further?
>
>
> Yes, I do. I won't get to it today, but will take a careful look Wed
> hopefully post by Thu. At first glance missing a few model.glabals,
> and has an extra nesting level, but looks good. (Have you tested it w
> non-DIV removals? I remember being vaguely suspicious that removing
> macro.component would cause non-determinism, but I can't remember
> why and I got too embroiled in dates to test it myself.)
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
>
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Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 09:32:16 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 23 10:53:12 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:53:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] egXML In-Reply-To: <45B6120E.5030901@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45B62F68.10605@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:53:12 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> I propose that the long description of this be reworded as
> follows:
>
>
>

The element itself is in
> the namespace
> type="ns">http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples.
> The TEI Guidelines use the same namespace for the body of the
> example itself, and they are validated against the TEI scheme by the
> production process of the TEI. User extensions or other schemas
> may this use this
> namespace, or any other, for the content of egXML.
> The content may also be well-formed enclosed in a CDATA marked
> section. If the content is not well-formed XML, the more general
> eg element should be used in preference.


>
>
>
> Does this upset anyone? I have committed it to SF, but it
> can obviously be changed ad lib.
Stylistically I think this is a whole lot worse. Too many "itself"s, and
the referent of "they" is not there. "this use this"????
are intended for particular usage remarks, not "long
description". What Conall requested was a rewrite of the element,
I think.
I will have a hack at it this evening.
>
> The reason for having in the funny namespace is to allow
> us to say
>
>
> quoth the Raven, neverore
>
>
> without having to tinker with the element. It
> makes the cut and paste a lot easier.
>
> This setup was done some years ago, for what seemed like
> good reasons, and it may be that I am just used to it
> despite its madness. It is also implemented, which
> is a non-trivial issue at this point :-}
It seems completely natural to me now...

>
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Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 09:41:34 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 23 10:45:46 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:45:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] egXML In-Reply-To: <45B62F68.10605@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45B62DAA.5000907@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:45:46 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
>
> Stylistically I think this is a whole lot worse. Too many "itself"s,
> and the referent of "they" is not there. "this use this"????
>
> are intended for particular usage remarks, not "long
> description". What Conall requested was a rewrite of the
> element, I think.
>
> I will have a hack at it this evening.
yes pliz.
now I know the technique, "rewrite it in rubbish English to
offend Lou's sensibilities and get him to rewrite it",
I'll use it more often.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 10:46:06 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Jan 23 10:49:09 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:49:09 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] content model of body etc In-Reply-To: <45B62D35.5090004@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17846.11893.21699.492548@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:49:09 -0500
> Sorry, I answered Senbastian's note before seeing this. Naturally,
> I am perfectly happy to wait for you to resolve your vague
> suspicions. Any particular Thursday?
Oh, sorry; I had meant this Thu. :-}
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Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 10:49:11 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 23 10:55:47 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:55:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] content model of body etc In-Reply-To: <17846.5754.722320.172317@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45B63003.5020103@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:55:47 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
>> Does anyone care to discuss this further?
>>
>
> Yes, I do. I won't get to it today, but will take a careful look Wed
> hopefully post by Thu. At first glance missing a few model.glabals,
> and has an extra nesting level, but looks good.
I think that level of thing, really kicking the tires
of the content model, is for you and Lou in private.
What I meant was whether Council need be bothered
by this any more, until the FAND results come back.
> (Have you tested it w
> non-DIV removals? I remember being vaguely suspicious that removing
> macro.component would cause non-determinism,
>
removing macro.component would cause the world
to fall about our ears, I think, so I suggest you don't
try that :-}
I assumed it was almost beyond belief that a customization
would succeed in making macro.component completely empty.
Now that the content model has blown up to be as big
as the original, it might even be easier to re-use the old
one with a simple substitution of classes. The interesting
part was when it was _much_ simpler and relied on Schematron.
Lou, if you want to start on it, there is some work
to do in the names of the new model classes and their
descriptions, which can be tested in testfand.odd.
When you're happy with that, it can be broken out
into *spec files. At the same time, remove Syd's
macro-based attempt to solve the problem.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 10:55:56 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Jan 23 13:47:56 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 11:47:56 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] updated biblItem document In-Reply-To: <549E8212-4302-475D-8756-A4723FC806CE@indiana.edu> Message-ID: <1169578076.31094.17.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 11:47:56 -0700
John,
The only question I have from your paper is the type attribute on
related item: this seems to me either a place for a fixed set of options
or an area where users will need to be discursive at times: type="other"
for example seems like it doesn't say very much unless it is part of a
defined set of choices ("other" than what?).
Or do you not think that a desire to be discursive will be an issue?
Would a solution be to have a

or some other element right at the top
where the relationship would be specified?
-dan
On Tue, 2007-23-01 at 07:51 -0500, John A. Walsh wrote:
> Hi Council,
>
> I've updated the biblItem document at http://ella.slis.indiana.edu/
> ~jawalsh/tei/biblItem.html (and http://ella.slis.indiana.edu/~jawalsh/
> tei/biblItem.xml) with some ODD, rnc, and instance examples.
>
> John
> --
> | John A. Walsh
> | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science
> | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405
> | www:
> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 edu>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 13:47:20 EST

From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Jan 23 14:37:59 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:37:59 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] First draft of TC M 28, notes from this morning's call, are up Message-ID: <17846.25623.799043.846750@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:37:59 -0500
I have put up on the web a somewhat fast-and-lousy first draft of the
notes from our teleconference this morning. I missed a bit more than
my usual shoddy job this time because of the tennis match. Thus, each
member of Council should read the entire thing -- it's pretty short
-- paying particular attention to items flagged with his or her
initials, the word "all", or the string "[?". Please post any
corrections, omissions, suggestions, etc., either to the list or send
directly to me.
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm28.xml?style=printable
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Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 14:38:03 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Jan 23 15:22:57 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:22:57 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] First draft of TC M 28, notes from this morning's call, are up In-Reply-To: <17846.25623.799043.846750@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <1169583777.6517.6.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:22:57 -0700
No changes from me.
On Tue, 2007-23-01 at 14:37 -0500, Syd Bauman wrote:
> I have put up on the web a somewhat fast-and-lousy first draft of the
> notes from our teleconference this morning. I missed a bit more than
> my usual shoddy job this time because of the tennis match. Thus, each
> member of Council should read the entire thing -- it's pretty short
> -- paying particular attention to items flagged with his or her
> initials, the word "all", or the string "[?". Please post any
> corrections, omissions, suggestions, etc., either to the list or send
> directly to me.
>
> http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm28.xml?style=printable
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 23 2007 - 15:22:22 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Wed Jan 24 07:03:56 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:03:56 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] First draft of TC M 28, notes from this morning's call, are up In-Reply-To: <17846.25623.799043.846750@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45B74B2C.5000100@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 21:03:56 +0900
Syd Bauman wrote:
> I have put up on the web a somewhat fast-and-lousy first draft of the
> notes from our teleconference this morning.
Thanks, well done. This is a good candidate for the price for the
shortest ever minutes. While this can't be said for the meeting itself,
I think it was pretty productive.
I missed a bit more than
> my usual shoddy job this time because of the tennis match.
Despite the tennis match (and the fact that everybody sounded like
speaking through a watering can) I could understand much more than
usual. For this reason, I am in favor of continuing on
highspeedconferencing.com for the time being (unless, of course, better
options come along).
> Thus, each
> member of Council should read the entire thing -- it's pretty short
> -- paying particular attention to items flagged with his or her
> initials, the word "all", or the string "[?". Please post any
> corrections, omissions, suggestions, etc., either to the list or send
> directly to me.
I skipped some action items, that were obvious to me, for the record:
DO: inform MD how much money is available to Council
[?...?]
he did report and we allocated the moneys.
SR: report on high speed conferences .com system
he did report (maybe only privately to me) and we did carry out a test
conference on Jan 15 -- without a tennis match, but Laurent had a funny
echo.
Here is one item I forgot to bring up:
eds.: update [SF feature request] doc ?
[?...?]
which refers to http://www.tei-c.org/Drafts/edw93.xml?style=printable, I
think. This will come up again in the road-map list.

All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 24 2007 - 07:04:45 EST

From Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz Wed Jan 24 18:25:43 2007 From: Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz (Conal Tuohy) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:25:43 +1300 Subject: [tei-council] egXML In-Reply-To: <[tei-council] egXML> Message-ID:
From: Conal Tuohy
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 12:25:43 +1300
> The reason for having in the funny namespace is to allow
> us to say
>
>
> quoth the Raven, neverore
>
>
> without having to tinker with the element. It
> makes the cut and paste a lot easier.
>
> This setup was done some years ago, for what seemed like
> good reasons, and it may be that I am just used to it
> despite its madness. It is also implemented, which
> is a non-trivial issue at this point :-}
>
> However, if anyone (especially Conal, since he is looking
> at it) finds this weird, speak up now.
I do find it a bit weird, yes.
I see the point about the convenience of declaring the "example"
namespace as the default namespace on the egXML element rather than on
its child, to allow for slightly easier cut-and-paste. That makes sense.
I don't want to quibble about it, especially given that it actually
works - I just want to understand it. What I haven't grasped is why the
"funny" namespace is needed at all. What I mean is, why can't the egXML
element and its content all just be in the regular TEI namespace?
Cheers
Con
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Received on Wed Jan 24 2007 - 18:25:56 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 24 18:44:32 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 23:44:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] egXML In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45B7EF60.3060106@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 23:44:32 +0000
Conal Tuohy wrote:
> I don't want to quibble about it, especially given that it actually
> works - I just want to understand it. What I haven't grasped is why the
> "funny" namespace is needed at all. What I mean is, why can't the egXML
> element and its content all just be in the regular TEI namespace?
>
>
practically, because it would play merry hell
with validation and processing. A simple
thing like for processing
will meet the inside the examples. It
may sound lazy, but when we set this up
I couldnt see any other way forward. Its trying
to make it very clear that this is an island
of oddity where normal rules do not apply.
Maybe we were being short-sighted? does
anyone else remember?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 24 2007 - 18:44:45 EST
From Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz Wed Jan 24 19:18:34 2007 From: Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz (Conal Tuohy) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:18:34 +1300 Subject: [tei-council] egXML In-Reply-To: <[tei-council] egXML> Message-ID:
From: Conal Tuohy
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:18:34 +1300
> Conal Tuohy wrote:
> > I don't want to quibble about it, especially given that it actually
> > works - I just want to understand it. What I haven't
> grasped is why the
> > "funny" namespace is needed at all. What I mean is, why
> can't the egXML
> > element and its content all just be in the regular TEI namespace?
> >
> >
> practically, because it would play merry hell
> with validation and processing. A simple
> thing like for processing
> will meet the inside the examples. It
> may sound lazy, but when we set this up
> I couldnt see any other way forward. Its trying
> to make it very clear that this is an island
> of oddity where normal rules do not apply.
Hmmm ... I see what you mean. Otherwise you would need to complicate any
such expression like so:

So that makes sense.
What still concerns me a little though is that the ODD language itself
has been slightly weirded in order to gain this simplicity in
processing. Personally I think it'd be better if ODD were simpler, even
at the expense of some extra processing, either by complicating various
XPath expressions (as above), or else by introducing a processing stage
to "denormalise" the ODD before regular processing. e.g. something like:

version="1.0"
xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"
xmlns:tei="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0/"
xmlns="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples">

name="local-name()"
namespace="http://www.tei-c.org/ns/Examples">









WDYT?
But this is a distraction really ... I understand the point of the
"example" namespace so I will shut up now :-)
Con
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Received on Wed Jan 24 2007 - 19:18:47 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Thu Jan 25 02:40:33 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:40:33 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] Proceedings of the TEI Day in Kyoto Message-ID: <45B85EF1.2020500@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 16:40:33 +0900
Dear Council members, dear Susan, MattZ and Amit,
I now have, finally, the printed copies of the TEI Day 2006 proceedings
in hand.
I would like to send a copy to the contributors, participants and also
to other interested members of the Council. If you are interested,
please send me your shipping adress (not to the list, but to me
personally) so that I can arrange the necessary. There is also a PDF
file for download, which I will announce on TEI-L soon.
All the best,
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 25 2007 - 02:41:09 EST

From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jan 26 00:18:56 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:18:56 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] content model of body etc In-Reply-To: <45B63003.5020103@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17849.36672.912461.821023@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:18:56 -0500
OK. Looked a little more carefully at Sebastian's testfand model. As
I said before, looks good. But it permits to occur *before*
model.divWrapper stuff at the top, and does not permit model.global
at the end. Besides, while that first group is pretty simple in what
it does, it has a needlessly complicated structure (and a false
comment -- there is no interleaving).

> removing macro.component would cause the world to fall about our
> ears, I think, so I suggest you don't try that :-}
Yup. I had forgotten (or never realized :-) that model.oddStuff was
in macro.component, so the use-case that floated through my head
(getting rid of

s and allowing only <*Spec> in of an ODD)
is totally bogus. Sorry, false alarm.
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Jan 26 02:54:38 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:54:38 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] content model of body etc In-Reply-To: <17849.36672.912461.821023@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45B9B3BE.9050200@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:54:38 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> OK. Looked a little more carefully at Sebastian's testfand model. As
> I said before, looks good. But it permits to occur *before*
> model.divWrapper stuff at the top
is that bad?
> and does not permit model.global
> at the end.
no, because it comes in each of the preceding ones.
can you make a test file to demonstrate something
that fails?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Jan 26 2007 - 02:54:51 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Jan 26 07:48:38 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:48:38 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] content model of body etc In-Reply-To: <45B9B3BE.9050200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17849.63654.420850.730026@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 07:48:38 -0500
Hasty reply, gotta get the kids on the bus ...

> > ... permits to occur *before* model.divWrapper stuff at
> > the top
> is that bad?
Yes. Defeats the purpose of model.divWrapper, which is to come before
the div-type-stuff, of which is one.

> > and does not permit model.global at the end.
> no, because it comes in each of the preceding ones.
So if after the or in my copy of the source text
there is something obliterated by a big coffee stain, I can't use
to encode that? I have to pretend there is something after it?

> can you make a test file to demonstrate something that fails?
Yes; if you haven't already got yourself one by the time I get back
...

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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 27 06:10:29 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:10:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: creating a div.like element] Message-ID: <45BB3325.9060700@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:10:29 +0000
Here's a reminder, from a relatively sophisticated TEI-er,
as to why that content model for is a barrier
to normal TEI extension processes.
ebastian
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: creating a div.like element
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 15:09:37 +0000
From: Elena Pierazzo ac.uk>
To: Sebastian Rahtz ox.ac.uk>

Hi Sebastian,

I'm trying to create an element called "bound" that should represent a
semantic sugar for

.
I'm having many problems to do it as I'm unable to locate the model in
which to include it and even which content model to give it. I've tried
with macro.bodyPart.div but it seems that inside the bound I've to
provide a
element... Can you help me please?
-- Elena Pierazzo Associate Researcher Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London Kay House 7 Arundel St London WC2R 3DX Phone: 0207-848-1949 Fax: 0207-848-2980 -- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Jan 27 2007 - 06:10:59 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 27 06:15:35 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:15:35 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] content model of body etc In-Reply-To: <17849.63654.420850.730026@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45BB3457.5000205@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:15:35 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> Yes. Defeats the purpose of model.divWrapper, which is to come before
> the div-type-stuff, of which is one.
>
I'll look at that.
> So if after the or in my copy of the source text
> there is something obliterated by a big coffee stain, I can't use
> to encode that? I have to pretend there is something after it?
>
>
you may or may not be surprised to hear that this is
not allowed in the current model either, which ends





needs some more jiggery-pokery.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Jan 27 2007 - 06:15:53 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Jan 27 08:09:21 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:09:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] content model of body etc In-Reply-To: <17849.63654.420850.730026@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45BB4F01.90906@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:09:21 +0000
If you don't have a headache yet today, read on. I can help you get one...
I have rewritten the body content model as below, to explicitly
model the sequence of
1. global stuff
2. divWrapper; if one occurs, it can be followed by more of itself
interspersed with globals
3. divGen; if one occurs, it can be followed by more of itself
interspersed with globals
4. div*Like things; if one occurs, it can be followed by more of
itself interspersed with globals and divGens
(but you have to choose between divLike, divN1Like and divN0Like
routes and there is no
going back)
4a. or maybe some paragraph-like things.
5. divWrapper; if one occurs, it can be followed by more of itself
interspersed with globals
Which I _believe_ is what we intend. The crucial thing here is that any
stage can end in globals, but not
start with them. This, with the starting globals, allows the beasts to
appear anywhere, so
far as I can tell.































































































































































-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Jan 27 2007 - 09:37:43 EST

From laurent.romary at loria.fr Sat Jan 27 11:30:11 2007 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:30:11 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] updated biblItem document In-Reply-To: <549E8212-4302-475D-8756-A4723FC806CE@indiana.edu> Message-ID:
From: Laurent Romary
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:30:11 +0100
Bonjour,
Having gone through John's note, I am close to be convinced by
.
Could we imagine (and have examples thereof) linking micro-components
of ?, like:



The Garden of Proserpine
Swinburne, Algernon Charles







The Poems of Algernon Charles Swinburne

London
Chatto

1
169-172

6 vols.



I guess this is part of the intedended mechanism, isn't it?
Best,
Laurent
PS: to Seb: that was not a real headache, but I deeply think we
should take some strong decisions to simplify the model (div*...)

Le 23 janv. 07 ? 13:51, John A. Walsh a ?crit :
> Hi Council,
>
> I've updated the biblItem document at http://ella.slis.indiana.edu/
> ~jawalsh/tei/biblItem.html (and http://ella.slis.indiana.edu/
> ~jawalsh/tei/biblItem.xml) with some ODD, rnc, and instance examples.
>
> John
> --
> | John A. Walsh
> | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science
> | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405
> | www:
> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 edu>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
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From laurent.romary at loria.fr Sat Jan 27 11:31:42 2007 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:31:42 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] updated biblItem document In-Reply-To: <1169578076.31094.17.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID:
From: Laurent Romary
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 17:31:42 +0100
Yes, a

or a could do the trick. I would support this.
Best,
Laurent
Le 23 janv. 07 ? 19:47, Dan O'Donnell a ?crit :
> John,
>
> The only question I have from your paper is the type attribute on
> related item: this seems to me either a place for a fixed set of
> options
> or an area where users will need to be discursive at times:
> type="other"
> for example seems like it doesn't say very much unless it is part of a
> defined set of choices ("other" than what?).
>
> Or do you not think that a desire to be discursive will be an issue?
>
> Would a solution be to have a

or some other element right at
> the top
> where the relationship would be specified?
>
> -dan
>
> On Tue, 2007-23-01 at 07:51 -0500, John A. Walsh wrote:
>> Hi Council,
>>
>> I've updated the biblItem document at http://ella.slis.indiana.edu/
>> ~jawalsh/tei/biblItem.html (and http://ella.slis.indiana.edu/
>> ~jawalsh/
>> tei/biblItem.xml) with some ODD, rnc, and instance examples.
>>
>> John
>> --
>> | John A. Walsh
>> | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science
>> | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405
>> | www:
>> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 edu>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tei-council mailing list
>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
> --
> Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD
> Chair, Text Encoding Initiative
> Director, Digital Medievalist Project
> www.digitalmedievalist.org/>
> Associate Professor and Chair of English
> University of Lethbridge
> Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4
> Vox: +1 403 329 2378
> Fax: +1 403 382-7191
> Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
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Received on Sat Jan 27 2007 - 11:32:51 EST

From jawalsh at indiana.edu Sat Jan 27 13:42:41 2007 From: jawalsh at indiana.edu (John A. Walsh) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:42:41 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] updated biblItem document In-Reply-To: <1169578076.31094.17.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <04CA87AB-CB50-4910-9B4B-06E4C7494F66@indiana.edu>
From: John A. Walsh
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 13:42:41 -0500
Dan,
I shouldn't have used type="other" in my example. It's confusing. I
was imagining the type attribute on relatedItem being populated with
a fixed or user-defined list. MODS (metadata object description
schema; http://www.loc.gov/standards/mods/) has a relatedItem element
with a type attribute, with enumerated values of: preceding,
succeeding, original, host, constituent, series, otherVersion,
otherFormat, isReferencedBy). We could come up with a fixed list or
suggested values.
John
-- | John A. Walsh | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | www: | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 edu> On Jan 23, 2007, at 1:47 PM, Dan O'Donnell wrote: > John, > > The only question I have from your paper is the type attribute on > related item: this seems to me either a place for a fixed set of > options > or an area where users will need to be discursive at times: > type="other" > for example seems like it doesn't say very much unless it is part of a > defined set of choices ("other" than what?). > > Or do you not think that a desire to be discursive will be an issue? > > Would a solution be to have a

or some other element right at > the top > where the relationship would be specified? > > -dan > > On Tue, 2007-23-01 at 07:51 -0500, John A. Walsh wrote: >> Hi Council, >> >> I've updated the biblItem document at http://ella.slis.indiana.edu/ >> ~jawalsh/tei/biblItem.html (and http://ella.slis.indiana.edu/ >> ~jawalsh/ >> tei/biblItem.xml) with some ODD, rnc, and instance examples. >> >> John >> -- >> | John A. Walsh >> | Assistant Professor, School of Library and Information Science >> | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 >> | www: >> | Voice:812-856-0707 Fax:812-856-2062 edu> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> tei-council mailing list >> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council > -- > Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD > Chair, Text Encoding Initiative > Director, Digital Medievalist Project www.digitalmedievalist.org/> > Associate Professor and Chair of English > University of Lethbridge > Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 > Vox: +1 403 329 2378 > Fax: +1 403 382-7191 > Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ > _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Jan 27 2007 - 13:42:51 EST

From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Jan 27 20:15:24 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:15:24 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: creating a div.like element] In-Reply-To: <45BB3325.9060700@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17851.63788.141020.628282@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 20:15:24 -0500
> Here's a reminder, from a relatively sophisticated TEI-er, as to
> why that content model for is a barrier to normal TEI
> extension processes.
Indeed, but keep in mind that this particular request demonstrates
only that
should be in a model class.[1] We were all agreed to
this back at the Oxford class meeting in 2005-09, I believe, but it
has not been implemented for a variety of reasons.
Note
---- [1] Alright, not entirely true ... it also demonstrates that it is not a good idea to leave unused specifications lying around in the source tree. _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Jan 27 2007 - 20:15:28 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Mon Jan 29 16:11:52 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:11:52 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] First draft of TC M 28, notes from this morning's call, are up In-Reply-To: <45B74B2C.5000100@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <17854.25368.513779.788414@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:11:52 -0500
> I skipped some action items, that were obvious to me, for the
> record:
I figured that, but didn't want to be presumptuous.

> DO: inform MD how much money is available to Council
> [?...?]
> he did report and we allocated the moneys.
I've rewritten this; CW & DO (at least) should check this section to
see if I've got it right.

> SR: report on high speed conferences .com system
> he did report (maybe only privately to me) and we did carry out a
> test conference on Jan 15 -- without a tennis match, but Laurent
> had a funny echo.
SR has already updated this section.

> Here is one item I forgot to bring up:
> eds.: update [SF feature request] doc ?
> [?...?]
> which refers to
> http://www.tei-c.org/Drafts/edw93.xml?style=printable, I think.
> This will come up again in the road-map list.
So noted.

I've also fixed a missing URL.
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From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 30 09:53:50 2007 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:53:50 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey Message-ID: <45BF5BFE.3050200@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:53:50 +0000
Very briefly for council's approval I have set up a TEI Numbered Divs survey on
surveymonkey.com This will allow for 100 responses.
The survey is available at:
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=82203219378
and I have discussed the implications of some of the questions and the phrasings
of their answers with Sebastian and Arianna.
Question #4 may seem a little out in left-field but I intend to use it as a
sanity check. (i.e. if lots of people think we should be able to mix numbered
div content with generic divs, then maybe we shouldn't take the survey results
too seriously.)
I'll take any suggestions for changes anyone has until I post a message about it
on TEI-L in the next day or so. Let me know if there are any major typos or
questions I've forgotten.
-James
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 30 2007 - 09:54:02 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Jan 30 10:38:25 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:38:25 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em? Message-ID: <17855.26225.658719.629980@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:38:25 -0500
Since we've removed <(date|time)(Range|Struct)>, we have some leaner
classes.
- The class model.dateLike has one member, .
- The class model.timeLike has one member,
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 30 10:42:33 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:42:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em? In-Reply-To: <17855.26225.658719.629980@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45BF6769.4030108@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:42:33 +0000
I'd go for the single class. The distinction seems to get increasingly
blurred these days,
and simplification seems good.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 30 2007 - 10:42:46 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 30 10:44:10 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:44:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em? In-Reply-To: <17855.26225.658719.629980@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45BF67CA.9030402@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 15:44:10 +0000
PS
> Combining them makes the TEI class system 1 quantum less complicated,
> with only the smallest disadvantage in vanilla schemas (
> gets
unequivocally, yes, I'd say...
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 30 2007 - 10:44:22 EST
From djbpitt+tei at pitt.edu Tue Jan 30 10:49:36 2007 From: djbpitt+tei at pitt.edu (David J Birnbaum) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:49:36 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em? In-Reply-To: <17855.26225.658719.629980@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45BF6910.9030603@pitt.edu>
From: David J Birnbaum
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:49:36 -0500
Dear Council,
Lump.
Best,
David
Syd Bauman wrote:
> Since we've removed <(date|time)(Range|Struct)>, we have some leaner
> classes.
>
> - The class model.dateLike has one member, .
> - The class model.timeLike has one member,
> - Everywhere one of these model classes is used, so is the other,
> with the one exception of model.recordingPart, which contains only
> model.dateLike, and which itself is only used as the content of
> .
>
> So the question is whether to leave things as they are, with 2 model
> classes with 1 member each, or combine them into 1 model class with 2
> members.
>
> Combining them makes the TEI class system 1 quantum less complicated,
> with only the smallest disadvantage in vanilla schemas (
> gets
> However, leaving 2 classes gives users more flexibility with their
> customizations.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
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>
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From James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 30 12:28:15 2007 From: James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:28:15 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em? In-Reply-To: <17855.26225.658719.629980@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45BF802F.50208@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:28:15 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
>
> Combining them makes the TEI class system 1 quantum less complicated,
> with only the smallest disadvantage in vanilla schemas (
> gets
> However, leaving 2 classes gives users more flexibility with their
> customizations.
>
> Thoughts?

I'd argue that time as a child of recording is not a bad idea.
But then I'd be tempted to say get rid of

From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Jan 30 12:30:58 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:30:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] limited phrase, take 2 In-Reply-To: <17525.9575.141607.227353@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <200701301730.l0UHUwIf020543@draco.services.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:30:58 -0500 (EST)
>From a user perspective, the goal of the limited phrase project is to
have a smaller content model for lots of elements -- getting rid of
things like having as a child of .
But from a class-management perspective, how to do this is an
interesting question. As I started setting up a list of model classes
that would need to be changed to implement limited phrases, it
occured to me that perhaps we weren't dividing them up at the right
level of abstraction.
The current proposal boils down to the idea that model.phrase would
remain pretty much as it is -- an amalgamation of subclasses
(although some of those subclasses would be jiggled around a bit),
and a new class, call it 'model.limitedPhrase', would be created that
has as members only a subset of the same amalgamation of subclasses
that belong to model.phrase. (The current proposal is the original
proposal of some months ago modified a bit to take into account the
conversation that followed. This is what Council asked me to
implement on the last con-call.)
But alternatively, we could divide model.phrase into two main
branches: one that is the limited phrase set, and the rest. I.e.,
divide model.phrase at the top level, and use the "limited" subclass
(here called model.phrase.originated -- feel free to suggest a better
name) in contexts where a limited phrase content model is desired.
Here are the details of:
- what we have now
- the current proposal
- a division of model.phrase into 2 main subclasses
Does anyone have reasons why one of these proposals is better than
the other? (BTW, don't get caught up in the names I've come up with
-- in fact, feel free to recommend better ones!)

--------- what we have now ---------
model.phrase =
model.graphicLike = binaryObject eg egXML formula graphic
model.hiLike = distinct emph foreign gloss hi mentioned soCalled term title
model.lPart = caesura rhyme
model.oddPhr = att code gi ident specDesc specList tag val
model.pPart.data = address
model.dateLike = date
model.measureLike = measure num
model.nameLike = geogName lang placeName rs
model.nameLike.agent = name orgName persName
model.timeLike = time
model.pPart.edit = abbr add app choice corr damage del expan orig
reg restore sic space supplied unclear
model.pPart.msdesc = catchwords dimensions handShift heraldry locus
material origDate origPlace secFol signatures watermark
model.ptrLike = ptr ref
model.ptrLike.form = oRef oVar pRef pVar
model.segLike = c cl m phr s seg w

--------- current proposal ---------
model.phrase =
model.graphicLike = binaryObject formula graphic
model.egLike = eg egXML
model.hilighted =
model.hiLike = hi
model.emphLike = distinct emph foreign gloss mentioned soCalled term title code ident
model.lPart = caesura rhyme
model.specDescLike = specDesc specList
model.xmlPhrase = att gi tag val
model.pPart.data = address
model.dateLike = date
model.measureLike = measure num
model.nameLike = geogName lang placeName rs
model.nameLike.agent = name orgName persName
model.timeLike = time
model.pPart.edit =
model.pPart.editorial = abbr choice expan
model.pPart.transcribe = add app corr damage del orig reg restore sic space supplied unclear
model.pPart.msdesc = catchwords dimensions handShift heraldry locus
material origDate origPlace secFol signatures watermark
model.ptrLike = ptr ref
model.ptrLike.form = oRef oVar pRef pVar
model.segLike = c cl m phr s seg w
model.limitedPhrase =
model.egLike = eg egXML
model.xmlPhrase = att gi tag val
model.pPart.data = address
model.dateLike = date
model.measureLike = measure num
model.nameLike = geogName lang placeName rs
model.nameLike.agent = name orgName persName
model.timeLike = time
model.pPart.msdesc = catchwords dimensions handShift heraldry locus
material origDate origPlace secFol signatures watermark
model.ptrLike = ptr ref
model.emphLike = distinct emph foreign gloss mentioned soCalled term title code ident
model.pPart.editorial = abbr choice expan

--------- complete re-arrangement ---------
model.phrase =
model.phrase.transcribe =
model.egLike = eg egXML
model.pPart.transcribe = add damage del restore space unclear
model.pPart.editorial = abbr expan sic
model.hiLike = hi
model.lPart = caesura rhyme
model.ptrLike.form = oRef oVar pRef pVar
model.segLike = c cl m phr s seg w
model.phrase.originate =
model.graphicLike = binaryObject formula graphic
model.pPart.originate = corr orig reg supplied
model.emphLike = distinct emph foreign gloss mentioned soCalled term title code ident
model.xmlPhrase = att gi tag val
model.specDescLike = specDesc specList
model.pPart.data = address
model.dateLike = date
model.measureLike = measure num
model.nameLike = geogName lang placeName rs
model.nameLike.agent = name orgName persName
model.timeLike = time
model.pPart.msdesc = catchwords dimensions handShift heraldry locus
material origDate origPlace secFol signatures watermark
model.ptrLike = ptr ref
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From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Jan 30 13:11:24 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:11:24 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey In-Reply-To: <45BF5BFE.3050200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1170180684.6672.58.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:11:24 -0700
None from me.
On Tue, 2007-30-01 at 14:53 +0000, James Cummings wrote:
> Very briefly for council's approval I have set up a TEI Numbered Divs survey on
> surveymonkey.com This will allow for 100 responses.
>
> The survey is available at:
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=82203219378
>
> and I have discussed the implications of some of the questions and the phrasings
> of their answers with Sebastian and Arianna.
>
> Question #4 may seem a little out in left-field but I intend to use it as a
> sanity check. (i.e. if lots of people think we should be able to mix numbered
> div content with generic divs, then maybe we shouldn't take the survey results
> too seriously.)
>
> I'll take any suggestions for changes anyone has until I post a message about it
> on TEI-L in the next day or so. Let me know if there are any major typos or
> questions I've forgotten.
>
> -James
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 30 2007 - 13:10:00 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Jan 30 13:18:50 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:18:50 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] First draft of TC M 28, notes from this morning's call, are up In-Reply-To: <17854.25368.513779.788414@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <1170181130.6672.72.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:18:50 -0700
On Mon, 2007-29-01 at 16:11 -0500, Syd Bauman wrote:
> > DO: inform MD how much money is available to Council
> > [?...?]
> > he did report and we allocated the moneys.
>
> I've rewritten this; CW & DO (at least) should check this section to
> see if I've got it right.
There's a typo or two, but otherwise it agrees with what I remember.
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 30 2007 - 13:17:26 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 30 13:37:10 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:37:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] limited phrase, take 2 In-Reply-To: <200701301730.l0UHUwIf020543@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45BF9056.6040303@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:37:10 +0000
I find the "original proposal" easier to understand,
to be honest. Perhaps I am confused because the
other proposal makes different decisions? eg
re "corr orig reg supplied"? are they supposed
to have the same affect, or have you deliberately
moved some elements around?
But the "new proposal" doesn't seem impossible,
if you really feel its more elegant.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 30 2007 - 13:37:28 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 30 16:21:51 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:21:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [tei-council] limited phrase, take 2 In-Reply-To: <200701301730.l0UHUwIf020543@draco.services.brown.edu> Message-ID:
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:21:51 +0000 (GMT)
I think I prefer the second of your proposals (i.e. make
model.limited.phrase a superset of existing low level model classes), for
the following reasons
a) it's what we originally decided to do
b) it makes it a little easier for users to decide for themselves what
does into model.limited.phrase: because it works with the existing model
definitions, it's a bit easier to say "I want that kind of thing in my
header too" (or not)
c) it avoids having to rethink all the existing class assignations
Reasons (a) and (c) are purely pragmatic of course and largely conditioned
by the desire to get P5 out sooner rather than later.
Another (third) option, if we do want to reopen this can of worms though,
might be to define a new macro "anorexicPhraseSequence".
Let's remind ourselves of a use case for this. I am (currently) rather
obsessed by the BNC, so forgive me for harping on about that. I want to
be able to say that the

s in my corpus headers have a content model
which is a specific subset of the

s in my corpus texts (only PCDATA,
not PCDATA or , for example). How would each of these proposals help me
with that problem?
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Received on Tue Jan 30 2007 - 16:22:04 EST

From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 30 16:23:03 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:23:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em? In-Reply-To: <17855.26225.658719.629980@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID:
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:23:03 +0000 (GMT)
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Syd Bauman wrote:
>
> Combining them makes the TEI class system 1 quantum less complicated,
> with only the smallest disadvantage in vanilla schemas (
> gets
> However, leaving 2 classes gives users more flexibility with their
> customizations.
>
> Thoughts?
>

Let them be lumpen.
dates and times is the same anyway, aint they?
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Received on Tue Jan 30 2007 - 16:23:16 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Jan 30 16:48:26 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:48:26 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] limited phrase, take 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45BFBD2A.7090900@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:48:26 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
> I think I prefer the second of your proposals (i.e. make
> model.limited.phrase a superset of existing low level model classes),
can you look again, Lou and check thus? model.limited.phrase is in the
_first_
of Syd's proposals, surely?
>
> Reasons (a) and (c) are purely pragmatic of course and largely
> conditioned by the desire to get P5 out sooner rather than later.
+1
>
> Another (third) option, if we do want to reopen this can of worms
> though, might be to define a new macro "anorexicPhraseSequence".
>
> Let's remind ourselves of a use case for this. I am (currently) rather
> obsessed by the BNC, so forgive me for harping on about that. I want
> to be able to say that the

s in my corpus headers have a content
> model which is a specific subset of the

s in my corpus texts (only
> PCDATA, not PCDATA or , for example). How would each of these
> proposals help me with that problem?
not at all. but was it supposed to?
this is what god gave you Schematron for, though people are
amazing reluctant to make use of it.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 30 2007 - 16:48:34 EST

From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Jan 30 16:50:30 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:50:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [tei-council] limited phrase, take 2 In-Reply-To: <45BFBD2A.7090900@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID:
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:50:30 +0000 (GMT)
On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Lou Burnard wrote:
>> I think I prefer the second of your proposals (i.e. make
>> model.limited.phrase a superset of existing low level model classes),
> can you look again, Lou and check thus? model.limited.phrase is in the
> _first_
> of Syd's proposals, surely?
>
Sorry, I meant the second of the things discussed in his message, of
course. The first one was the status quo. So yes, you're right.
It's been a long day, and mostly on trains.
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Received on Tue Jan 30 2007 - 16:50:34 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Tue Jan 30 18:09:22 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:09:22 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey In-Reply-To: <45BF5BFE.3050200@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45BFD022.9090408@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 08:09:22 +0900
James Cummings wrote:
> Very briefly for council's approval I have set up a TEI Numbered Divs survey on
> surveymonkey.com This will allow for 100 responses.
>
> The survey is available at:
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=82203219378
>
> I'll take any suggestions for changes anyone has until I post a message about it
> on TEI-L in the next day or so. Let me know if there are any major typos or
> questions I've forgotten.
I think we should say loudly, that we will not simply count the numbers
and proceed by majority, but rather want to take account as much needs
as possible, while keeping the whole thing as easy as possible.
Christian

> -James
>
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Received on Tue Jan 30 2007 - 18:10:49 EST

From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Jan 30 19:06:48 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:06:48 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Planning Subcommittee report Message-ID: <1170202008.10415.15.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:06:48 -0700
Hi all,
The planning committee was supposed to finish its worklist by this
coming Friday. We got through the task list a little earlier than we'd
originally estimated, and so have passed this on to the editors for
review and updating (some of the material we had to work with was quite
old).
We also have a process designed in abstract for the work required to get
us from here to P5 on time. As soon as we get the revised version of the
task list back, we'll put the two things together and propose a plan to
get P5 to the church on time. We think this should be done by Monday
Feb. 12, or earlier if we can manage it.
-d
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 30 2007 - 19:05:24 EST
From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Jan 31 01:23:05 2007 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 07:23:05 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey In-Reply-To: <1170180684.6672.58.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <1170224585.45c035c9ceebd@www.loria.fr>
From: Laurent Romary
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 07:23:05 +0100
Fine for me. I have actually tried to fill the form (are the inputs already
recorded? ;-)).
Laurent
Selon Dan O'Donnell ca>:
> None from me.
>
> On Tue, 2007-30-01 at 14:53 +0000, James Cummings wrote:
> > Very briefly for council's approval I have set up a TEI Numbered Divs
> survey on
> > surveymonkey.com This will allow for 100 responses.
> >
> > The survey is available at:
> > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=82203219378
> >
> > and I have discussed the implications of some of the questions and the
> phrasings
> > of their answers with Sebastian and Arianna.
> >
> > Question #4 may seem a little out in left-field but I intend to use it as a
> > sanity check. (i.e. if lots of people think we should be able to mix
> numbered
> > div content with generic divs, then maybe we shouldn't take the survey
> results
> > too seriously.)
> >
> > I'll take any suggestions for changes anyone has until I post a message
> about it
> > on TEI-L in the next day or so. Let me know if there are any major typos
> or
> > questions I've forgotten.
> >
> > -James
> >
> --
> Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD
> Chair, Text Encoding Initiative
> Director, Digital Medievalist Project
> Associate Professor and Chair of English
> University of Lethbridge
> Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4
> Vox: +1 403 329 2378
> Fax: +1 403 382-7191
> Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/
>
> _______________________________________________
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> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>

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From James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Jan 31 07:46:47 2007 From: James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:46:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey In-Reply-To: <1170224585.45c035c9ceebd@www.loria.fr> Message-ID: <45C08FB7.200@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:46:47 +0000
Laurent Romary wrote:
> Fine for me. I have actually tried to fill the form (are the inputs already
> recorded? ;-)).
Yup, I was going to clear the results just before posting to TEI-L, but there
have been five votes so far, and they are quite consistent with what I'd expect
council to say. So I don't think I will wipe them. (Voting records IP address,
so you can only vote once (well, once from each computer)).
I will announce on TEI-L today then.
-James
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 31 2007 - 07:46:59 EST
From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Jan 31 09:12:40 2007 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:12:40 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey In-Reply-To: <45C08FB7.200@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1E0EAF45-DDBB-4DBE-A00E-094038F398A4@loria.fr>
From: Laurent Romary
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:12:40 +0100
OK. I'll try to find some other computers...
Le 31 janv. 07 ? 13:46, James Cummings a ?crit :
> Laurent Romary wrote:
>> Fine for me. I have actually tried to fill the form (are the
>> inputs already
>> recorded? ;-)).
>
> Yup, I was going to clear the results just before posting to TEI-L,
> but there have been five votes so far, and they are quite
> consistent with what I'd expect council to say. So I don't think I
> will wipe them. (Voting records IP address, so you can only vote
> once (well, once from each computer)).
>
> I will announce on TEI-L today then.
>
> -James
>
> --
> Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford
> James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
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Received on Wed Jan 31 2007 - 09:14:00 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Jan 31 10:03:57 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:03:57 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <17856.45021.632960.175415@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:03:57 -0500
SR> I'd go for the single class.
DB> Lump.
LB> Let them be lumpen.
LB> dates and times is the same anyway, aint they?

Sorry folks, but I have mislead you. It's not just that
uses model.dateLike but not model.timeLike, but also ,
, , , and . Are we still
in favor of lumping?
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Jan 31 10:16:25 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:16:25 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em? In-Reply-To: <17856.45021.632960.175415@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45C0B2C9.6060607@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:16:25 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> Sorry folks, but I have mislead you. It's not just that
> uses model.dateLike but not model.timeLike, but also ,
> , , , and . Are we still
> in favor of lumping?
>
hard to see why not. If you imagine using or
for podcasts, time might be needed.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 31 2007 - 10:16:38 EST
From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Jan 31 10:33:20 2007 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:33:20 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em? In-Reply-To: <45C0B2C9.6060607@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45C0B6C0.8030201@kcl.ac.uk>
From: Arianna Ciula
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:33:20 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Syd Bauman wrote:
>> Sorry folks, but I have mislead you. It's not just that
>> uses model.dateLike but not model.timeLike, but also ,
>> , , , and . Are we still
>> in favor of lumping?
>>
> hard to see why not. If you imagine using or
> for podcasts, time might be needed.
>
True, same may be valid for , may be less so for
and , but it wouldn't be conceptually wrong anyway, just less
likely. So I would say lump as well.
Arianna
-- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London Strand London WC2R 2LS (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 31 2007 - 10:35:50 EST
From djbpitt+tei at pitt.edu Wed Jan 31 10:41:15 2007 From: djbpitt+tei at pitt.edu (David J Birnbaum) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:41:15 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em? In-Reply-To: <17856.45021.632960.175415@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45C0B89B.9000006@pitt.edu>
From: David J Birnbaum
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:41:15 -0500
Dear Council,
Yep.
Best,
David
Syd Bauman wrote:
> SR> I'd go for the single class.
>
> DB> Lump.
>
> LB> Let them be lumpen.
> LB> dates and times is the same anyway, aint they?
>
>
> Sorry folks, but I have mislead you. It's not just that
> uses model.dateLike but not model.timeLike, but also ,
> , , , and . Are we still
> in favor of lumping?
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
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Received on Wed Jan 31 2007 - 10:39:16 EST
From mjd at hum.ku.dk Wed Jan 31 10:49:48 2007 From: mjd at hum.ku.dk (Matthew James Driscoll) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:49:48 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em? In-Reply-To: <[tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em?> Message-ID: <5FA95E40EE2AD51190380090272724BB0E8F3BE1@humxsrv1.hum.ku.dk>
From: Matthew James Driscoll
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:49:48 +0100
Lump-o-rama.
MJD
Syd Bauman wrote:
> SR> I'd go for the single class.
>
> DB> Lump.
>
> LB> Let them be lumpen.
> LB> dates and times is the same anyway, aint they?
>
>
> Sorry folks, but I have mislead you. It's not just that
> uses model.dateLike but not model.timeLike, but also ,
> , , , and . Are we still
> in favor of lumping?
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
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Received on Wed Jan 31 2007 - 10:50:06 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Jan 31 11:12:29 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:12:29 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em? In-Reply-To: <5FA95E40EE2AD51190380090272724BB0E8F3BE1@humxsrv1.hum.ku.dk> Message-ID: <1170259949.19173.0.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:12:29 -0700
TEI Council: The Lumpen proletariat.

On Wed, 2007-31-01 at 16:49 +0100, Matthew James Driscoll wrote:
> Lump-o-rama.
>
> MJD
>
> Syd Bauman wrote:
> > SR> I'd go for the single class.
> >
> > DB> Lump.
> >
> > LB> Let them be lumpen.
> > LB> dates and times is the same anyway, aint they?
> >
> >
> > Sorry folks, but I have mislead you. It's not just that
> > uses model.dateLike but not model.timeLike, but also ,
> > , , , and . Are we still
> > in favor of lumping?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > tei-council mailing list
> > tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
> _______________________________________________
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> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
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-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 31 2007 - 11:11:10 EST

From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Jan 31 13:04:19 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:04:19 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] limited phrase, take 2 In-Reply-To: <1170180176.6672.49.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <17856.55843.400002.839959@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:04:19 -0500
> I think the third version is missing elements--I can't see choice,
> for example.
Yes, is missing from the complete re-design, sorry about
that. But even worse, the membership of model.pPart.editorial and
model.pPart.originate are reversed.
However, so far those who have chimed in prefer what I called the
"current proposal", so this may be a moot point.
--------- complete re-arrangement, updated ---------
model.phrase =
model.phrase.transcribe =
model.egLike = eg egXML
model.pPart.transcribe = add damage del restore space unclear
model.pPart.editorial = corr orig reg supplied
model.hiLike = hi
model.lPart = caesura rhyme
model.ptrLike.form = oRef oVar pRef pVar
model.segLike = c cl m phr s seg w
model.phrase.originate =
model.graphicLike = binaryObject formula graphic
model.pPart.originate = abbr expan sic choice
model.emphLike = distinct emph foreign gloss mentioned soCalled term title code ident
model.xmlPhrase = att gi tag val
model.specDescLike = specDesc specList
model.pPart.data = address
model.dateLike = date
model.measureLike = measure num
model.nameLike = geogName lang placeName rs
model.nameLike.agent = name orgName persName
model.timeLike = time
model.pPart.msdesc = catchwords dimensions handShift heraldry locus
material origDate origPlace secFol signatures watermark
model.ptrLike = ptr ref
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Received on Wed Jan 31 2007 - 13:04:31 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Jan 31 13:07:11 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:07:11 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] time & date model classes: lump 'em? In-Reply-To: <1170259949.19173.0.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <17856.56015.148259.553342@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:07:11 -0500
They (model.dateLike & model.timeLike) are now lumped into one class,
model.dateLike.
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Received on Wed Jan 31 2007 - 13:07:15 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Jan 31 14:18:36 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:18:36 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] limited phrase, take 2 In-Reply-To: <45BFBD2A.7090900@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17856.60300.631175.957634@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:18:36 -0500
> >I want to be able to say that the

s in my corpus headers have a
> >content model which is a specific subset of the

s in my corpus
> >texts (only PCDATA, not PCDATA or , for example). How would
> >each of these proposals help me with that problem?
> not at all. but was it supposed to?
No, it wasn't. Which is why I have, at times, expressed doubt as
to whether or not this particular change is worth the effort. (I've
come to think it is, but if it solved the above problem it would
obviously be worth the effort -- *way* worth the effort, as my
daughter would say.)

> this is what god gave you Schematron for, though people are amazing
> reluctant to make use of it.
I humbly disagree. This is what Mrs Clark & Murata gave us
co-occurrence constraints in Relax NG for.
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From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 2 06:11:53 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 06:11:53 -0500 Subject: [tei–council] action item –– due Tuesday –– reminder Message-ID: <17859.7289.348360.7265@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 06:11:53 -0500
Responsibility: all
Action: read & comment on SB's post "date attributes: summary,
problems, and some suggestions"[1]
Due date: 2006-02-06
Everyone should please read this posting and then post opinions,
corrections, suggestions, agreements, disagreements, etc., here. In
particular, Council needs to decide whether and how to handle
permitting non-Gregorian regularizations or normalizations, and
non-W3C formats. These are discussed in the section headed "Below",
and I provide four main possible solutions from which you might
choose.
This is not easy stuff, folks, and I really don't think the editors
should be deciding this on their own.
Note
---- [1] http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2007/002164.html _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 02 2007 - 06:11:58 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Fri Feb 2 18:05:29 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 08:05:29 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] date attributes: summary, problems, and some suggestions In-Reply-To: <200701222223.l0MMNblR024839@perseus.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45C3C3B9.3050903@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 08:05:29 +0900
Thanks for the remainder Syd. Here are my comments.
Syd Bauman wrote:

>
> value= of ,
> date= of , , and
> I am not bothered by this in the least, because I think the
> semantics are clearer with these names, and the combined
> alternative (dateValue=) is at least cumbersome if not misleading
> (i.e., on
> Suggestion: leave names as they are.
fine
>
> * We haven't implemented classes as well as we could.
> Suggestions:
>
> - Put into att.datePart. This has the disadvantage of
> giving a dur= attribute, but I'm not sure it is worth
> making another class just for this one case. Thoughts?
we should not carry the class economy to far, I think. Having
attributes that do not make sense for a certain element should
automatically recommend it for a separate class.
>
> - Create a new attribute class for the date= of , ,
> and . (Any suggestions for the name?)
att.datePart.date?
> - If we keep [1] we may wish to reconsider its class
> membership, as value= is a bit silly on . It needs only
> dur= from att.datePart, making two cases that benefit from
> splitting att.datePart. (See , above.)
ee , above.

> * Users want a method of expressing things like "Oct 27 of 1909, 1910,
> or 1911" or "an Oct 27, but I don't know which one". The W3C format
> that express only a month and day explicitly (xsd:gMonthDay) means
> "a set of one-day long, annually periodic instances". These users
> don't want the entire set, they want only one. ISO 8601:2004 does
> not seem to have even a method to represent the set, let alone a
> singleton. (James, can you verify that? How would one represent
> month & day, no year, in 8601?)
> Suggestion: I haven't got one, thus defer to P5 1.1.
Whats the point of putting this in an attribute anyway?

> * At least one user has expressed a need to express dates in other
> than the [proleptic] Gregorian calendar. He believes this would be a
> requirement of many historians were they to use TEI.
> Solutions: see below
>
> Below
> -----
> Two different suggestions have been floated for trying to get a handle
> on the last three problems, to which I will add two more.
>
> The basic idea is to provide two capabilities:
> * simple date format: conform to W3C spec, easily validatable, software
> support in the world-at-large
> * complex date format: should conform to ISO 8601 if possible
>
> Note that "simple" and "complex" are mostly just labels: it is
> possible to have a W3C date expression that is more complex than some
> other format. The complex date format could be split into two: those
> that conform to ISO 8601 and those that don't; this would give us
> three formats, W3C, ISO, and User-generated.
>
> Note that P4 has only complex format dates. Further note that right
> now our P5 dates are very like the simple date format, except that a
> single complexity has been added: expressing times precise only to the
> minute or hour. This complexity is validatable, but enjoys no support
> in the world of XSLT 2.0. If we go with *any* of the following
> systems, I recommend that our "simple date" formats revert to being
> truly W3C-only, and thus those who need to express times less
> precisely than to the second would be forced to use the "complex date"
> format.
This seems to be quite desirable to me.

> The question is at what level to apportion these capabilities. Here
> are the four possibilities I have come up with. Note: the names are
> ones I have MADE UP on the spot, and are merely stand-ins for whatever
> Council eventually decides they should be named.
>
> attribute level: each of the dating attrs is split into two
> datatype level: we provide one datatype for each date format, user
> chooses which for each attribute
> class level: for each attribute set, we provide two (or more) classes,
> one for each format, user chooses which for each element
> all-in-one: syntax of attribute value differentiates
>
> datatype level
> -------- -----
> We create two or three datatypes, one for each date format.
>
> data.w3cTemporal = xsd:date | xsd:gYear | xsd:gMonth | xsd:gDay |
> xsd:gYearMonth | xsd:gMonthDay | xsd:time |
> xsd:dateTime
>
> data.isoTemporal = [if & when a datatype library is written, plug it
> in here; in the meantime, a bunch of gnarly
> regexes might do the trick.]
>
> data.usrTemporal = xsd:token [3] or whatever user chooses to use
>
> (Latter two could easily be rolled into one 'data.looseTemporal'.)
>
> The user, at schema-creation time (perhaps with easy radio buttons in
> Roma) chooses which datatype to use for any given attribute. (A nice
> UI feature would allow user to select a datatype for *all* dating
> attributes at one shot.)
At the moment, I am inclined to go with this solution. It seems to hide
most of the complexity for standard use cases, but gives the building
blocks for more flexibility, if needed.
What still bothers me is
> The rule in P4 for all of the attributes that held a date/time value
> is pretty simple. It boils down to "if you can use ISO 8601, do so; if
> not, document whatever you do in in the header".
Now in P5, we do everything in the ODDs. Do we still require this
documentation, or do we just assume that the ODD will be available?
This brings us once again to the eternal question of how to link from
the instance to the ODD that governed the creation of the schema
according to which the instance validates (the instance's grandmother,
so to say)?
best, chw
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 4 12:58:18 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 17:58:18 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] odd manual, updated Message-ID: <45C61EBA.6000603@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2007 17:58:18 +0000
Dear council (and Greg, since he asked on TEI-L),
I have updated my "TEI customization handbook"
and put it up at http://users.ox.ac.uk/~rahtz/oddmanual.pdf
I'd be grateful for corrections and, more importantly, additions.
Comments too, but I have a very limited amount of time at present,
and can't promise to implement large scale rewrites myself.
Of course, I can send the source to anyone who wants
to edit it (its in our local Subversion repository, so not simple
to just ask you to check it out).
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 04 2007 - 12:58:39 EST
From James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Feb 5 12:23:27 2007 From: James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 17:23:27 +0000 Subject: [tei–council] action item –– due Tuesday –– reminder In-Reply-To: <17859.7289.348360.7265@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45C7680F.70209@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2007 17:23:27 +0000
Comments interspersed
Syd Bauman wrote:
> Responsibility: all
> Action: read & comment on SB's post "date attributes: summary,
> problems, and some suggestions"[1]
> Due date: 2006-02-06
> First, a listing of the attributes that are directly involved with
> dating. ("dating" as in "timing", not as in "courtship" :-)

> Problems
> --------
> * Some are distressed by the fact that attributes that are of the
> same datatype (data.temporal) and serve similar functions have
> different names, in particular:
> value= of ,
> date= of , , and
> I am not bothered by this in the least, because I think the
> semantics are clearer with these names, and the combined
> alternative (dateValue=) is at least cumbersome if not misleading
> (i.e., on
> Suggestion: leave names as they are.
Agreed. It does bother me that it is date/@value but birth/@date; but
birth/@value is misleading and birth/@dateValue just seems silly.
> * We haven't implemented classes as well as we could.
> Suggestions:
>
> - Put into att.datePart. This has the disadvantage of
> giving a dur= attribute, but I'm not sure it is worth
> making another class just for this one case. Thoughts?
Agreed.
> - Create a new attribute class for the date= of , ,
> and . (Any suggestions for the name?)
Is att.dateLike taken?
> - If we keep [1] we may wish to reconsider its class
> membership, as value= is a bit silly on . It needs only
> dur= from att.datePart, making two cases that benefit from
> splitting att.datePart. (See , above.)
Erm. I'm in favour of keeping it, specifically as measure for spatial uses.
two miles It isn't just for temporal distance, remember.
> * The precision= attribute is superfluous, as the precision is
> represented in the value of the value=, dur=, notBefore=, notAfter=,
> from=, or to= attribute(s).
> One might argue that we should instead change this attribute to
> indicate that a time is precise only to the minute or hour (as
> opposed to second or fraction thereof) and thus not require our
> extension to W3C datatypes. However, this may become a non-issue
> depending on outcomes of the items discussed below; besides, I
> wouldn't make this argument, so ...
> Suggestion: delete it.
I could live with that.
> * Users want a method of expressing things like "Oct 27 of 1909, 1910,
> or 1911" or "an Oct 27, but I don't know which one". The W3C format
> that express only a month and day explicitly (xsd:gMonthDay) means
> "a set of one-day long, annually periodic instances". These users
> don't want the entire set, they want only one. ISO 8601:2004 does
> not seem to have even a method to represent the set, let alone a
> singleton. (James, can you verify that? How would one represent
> month & day, no year, in 8601?)
Well early ISO 8601 drafts allowed --12-25 for any Christmas Day... which I
think we've included in our pattern, and isn't that what xsd:gMonthDay does? Or
am I missing something?
> Suggestion: I haven't got one, thus defer to P5 1.1.
The multiple dates thing is a 'choice' if Dan gets an expanded notion of choice
into P5 1.1....

> Choosing one of these requires some thought and discussion. Up front I
> can only say that I don't like the 'attribute level' solution. It's
> just too confusing for the average user, most of whom have little or
> nothing to gain. I.e., to borrow a phrase from Perl, while it does
> make the hard things possible, it does not make the easy things easy.
> The others all do, presuming we make simple format dates the default
> for the class or datatype level.
I don't really like the attribute or the all-in-one solutions proposed, which I
guess leaves me with the Class or Datatype ones. Of these, it seems that the
datatype solution puts the least burden on the user for understanding what is
going on.
-James
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Feb 05 2007 - 12:23:41 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 6 06:34:44 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:34:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] date attributes: summary, problems, and some suggestions In-Reply-To: <200701222223.l0MMNblR024839@perseus.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45C867D4.3080206@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2007 11:34:44 +0000
Thoughts on dates
> Problems
> --------
> * Some are distressed by the fact that attributes that are of the
> same datatype (data.temporal) and serve similar functions have
> different names, in particular:
> value= of ,
> date= of , , and
> I am not bothered by this in the least, because I think the
> semantics are clearer with these names, and the combined
> alternative (dateValue=) is at least cumbersome if not misleading
> (i.e., on
> Suggestion: leave names as they are.
>
OK. its a minor annoyance/distress, but not worth arguing about
> * We haven't implemented classes as well as we could.
> Suggestions:
>
> - Put into att.datePart. This has the disadvantage of
> giving a dur= attribute, but I'm not sure it is worth
> making another class just for this one case. Thoughts?
>
no worries. I am sure someone will find an amusing use for @dur
> - Create a new attribute class for the date= of , ,
> and . (Any suggestions for the name?)
>
att.dateValue
> - If we keep [1] we may wish to reconsider its class
> membership, as value= is a bit silly on . It needs only
> dur= from att.datePart, making two cases that benefit from
> splitting att.datePart. (See , above.)
>
kill distance
> * The precision= attribute is superfluous, as the precision is
> ...
> Suggestion: delete it.
>
OK
> * Users want a method of expressing things like "Oct 27 of 1909, 1910,
> or 1911" or "an Oct 27, but I don't know which one". The W3C format
> that express only a month and day explicitly (xsd:gMonthDay) means
> "a set of one-day long, annually periodic instances". These users
> don't want the entire set, they want only one. ISO 8601:2004 does
> not seem to have even a method to represent the set, let alone a
> singleton. (James, can you verify that? How would one represent
> month & day, no year, in 8601?)
> Suggestion: I haven't got one, thus defer to P5 1.1.
>
I agree.
> The basic idea is to provide two capabilities:
> * simple date format: conform to W3C spec, easily validatable, software
> support in the world-at-large
> * complex date format: should conform to ISO 8601 if possible
>
The principle is fine, yes.
I would rule out the attribute level solution, just too confusing
for day to day use.
The class solution is sort of elegant, but falls down
somewhat in implementation problems.
The all-in-one solution is cute, but presumably not
supported by validating software or other standards?
The multiple datatypes are interesting, but "the users chooses which
datatype
to use for any given attribute" is a bit clumsy. If you switch to an ISO
or USER model, would you do it piecemeal? wouldn't it always be a
global decision?
More importantly, this means that when I see coming
at me, I cannot easily deal with it without parsing the ODD in relatively
complex ways. I really don't like the idea of @from and @to changing
their meaning under my feet constantly, or having to refer back to
ad hoc notations in the header.
What to do? I think we should basically go with the class
solution, and accept that elements will gain extra
attributes of the form value.XXX etc.
We implement it as follows:
* make all the relevant elements members of att.datable
* make att.datable a member of att.datable.w3c and att.datable.iso
(att.datable.iso is empty initially)
* att.datable.w3c defines short forms attributes like "value" and "from"
* in a new module (namesdates_complex) define a att.datable.iso
which defines value.iso and from.iso
* if the new module is loaded, all the relevant elements now get extra
attributes
* people who don't want the standard attribute kill the att.datable.w3c
class
* people who want to define att.datable.Etruscan as a new class simply
do so, and change att.datable to be member of that new class
* if desired, individual elements can be made members of
att.datable.Etruscan
* people can redefine att.datable.w3c to use ISO if they want
to freeze in hell forever and ever
We have to set up a new module, of course, for the quick switch.
I believe that the complexity of adding an extra set of attributes
is worth it for the simplicity and extensibility.
The model I am following here is that of att.global, which picks up
extra meaning if you load new modules
If you buy the "module" route, it means that we could add
att.datable.iso at 1.1 if we wanted.
Note: having discussed this with Lou, he says he agrees,
and so won't reply to this thread on his own.

-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 06 2007 - 06:34:56 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 8 16:18:19 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:18:19 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] tei release Message-ID: <45CB939B.4020201@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2007 21:18:19 +0000
We are overdue a TEI P5 release. I'd quite like
to target the last day of February; which is doable,
but I'd also greedily like a headline sexy change.
What chance we could show that deletion
of numbered divs is now possible? To
put this in requires that someone other than me
look at the proposed classes and content models
and agrees that they do the right thing. Tempted
as I am to just bang it in, I am also feeble enough
to want a shared scapegoat.
I am hoping from hints that James is dropping
that we will simply end up with divNLike,
not divN0Like and divN1Like, but I think
we get the evidence for that hope soon?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 09 2007 - 17:29:55 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Fri Feb 9 17:41:01 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 22:41:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] tei release In-Reply-To: <45CB939B.4020201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45CCF87D.4010401@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 22:41:01 +0000
I agree. More significantly, I expect to have time to spend on it next
week, even.
I aim for
- removable divNs
- q/quote argument resolved
- disposition of a sizeable bunch of outstanding SF requests
by the end of Feb.
L

Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> We are overdue a TEI P5 release. I'd quite like
> to target the last day of February; which is doable,
> but I'd also greedily like a headline sexy change.
>
> What chance we could show that deletion
> of numbered divs is now possible? To
> put this in requires that someone other than me
> look at the proposed classes and content models
> and agrees that they do the right thing. Tempted
> as I am to just bang it in, I am also feeble enough
> to want a shared scapegoat.
>
> I am hoping from hints that James is dropping
> that we will simply end up with divNLike,
> not divN0Like and divN1Like, but I think
> we get the evidence for that hope soon?
>
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From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 9 17:44:45 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:44:45 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] tei release In-Reply-To: <45CB939B.4020201@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17868.63837.318745.887157@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:44:45 -0500
> I am hoping from hints that James is dropping that we will simply
> end up with divNLike, not divN0Like and divN1Like, but I think we
> get the evidence for that hope soon?
IMHO we need not only div0Like and div1Like, we also need div2Like,
div3Like, etc. There isn't really all that much point in having
numbered divs unless each is in its own model class, so that I can
easily say " and are div1Like,
is
div2Like, and , , and are div3Like".
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Received on Fri Feb 09 2007 - 17:44:48 EST
From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 9 19:59:02 2007 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:59:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. Message-ID: <45CD18D6.60109@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 00:59:02 +0000
Dear Council,
I have closed the TEI Numbered Divs survey and would like to report on the
results. I have made a PDF of the summary report that Survey Monkey provides.
It is available for download at:
http://james.cummingsfamily.org.uk/TEI/survey.pdf

The results are interesting. There were 87 responses total.
For the first question about whether the TEI should contain both numbered and
generic div elements, 44.8% wanted there to be only one type whereas 43.7%
thought the current support for both should be preserved.
For the second question about if the TEI were to support only one of these,
which they would prefer, 18.4% wanted numbered divs, and 75.9% wanted generic divs.
For the third question on where numbered divs should start (div0 vs div1) 13.3%
thought one should always start at div0, 34.9% thought one should always start
at div1, and an identical 34.9% thought that they didn't care as long as there
was a single starting point. 7.2% thought that we should continue support for
div0 or div1 and 9.6% wasn't sure.
The test question, number four of whether you should be allowed to mix numbered
and generic divs 81.2% wanted to continue support for only one at a time and
10.6% wanted to be able to do this. I think this indicates a general level of
trustworthiness of the survey.
Question 5 was a comment question basically indicating two camps as expected,
those who like the simplicity of numbered divs and those who find them
unnecessary. There were some other comments which I found interesting, see the PDF.

Recommendations:
1) There is no clear mandate to get rid of numbered divs, the community is split
basically 50/50 on this issue. I recommend that we maintain support for both.
It is interesting that if we were to only support one type, i.e. if they were
forced to choose, that a clear majority would prefer generic divs. However,
because of the response on the first question, I don't think this is able to be
acted upon.
2) There is a clear majority who want to start at div1 (and this is increased if
we lump in those who don't care but want there to be a single starting point).
My recommendation is that we start numbered divs at div1 only and provide two
example customisations: a) One which changes the start to div0 and another b)
which returns to the current div0|div1 optional start. Sebastian has assured me
that these ODDs would be fairly straightforward. Presenting the community with
these would lessen any negative feelings occurring because of this change.
3) The use of a survey to scope feeling of the TEI community has been generally
positively received, and should be considered for other issues where the Council
feels it might be useful.
I'm sure the Council will want to discuss the results and how we should progress.
-James
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 09 2007 - 19:59:20 EST

From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 9 20:32:57 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:32:57 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] numbered divs, a proposed solution In-Reply-To: <45A2DD29.8050008@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17869.8393.173640.515800@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:32:57 -0500
I'm sorry, I just realized I never responded to this!

SR> yes, its technically OK. but if you have
SR> (DUMMY | foo), (DUMMY2 | foo)
SR> and you meet just a "foo", where does it come from?
The first parenthetical -- since it is not a it is required
to be a in order to match, as one or the other of the two
element types in the first parenthetical must be matched. But note
that if I meet just a it's not valid (since the model requires
two s in a row, presuming our good sense tells us DUMMY elements
are not allowed).

SR> Anyway, having divLike classes adds the enormous advantage that you
SR> can now easily add your own new object to be a child of .
SR> Don't tell me *that* was easy before!
Yes, absolutely. This is a definite big plus I am all in favor of
(and have always assumed we would do since the class meeting in
Oxford).
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From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 9 20:33:49 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:33:49 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <45CD18D6.60109@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17869.8445.930274.347152@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 20:33:49 -0500
Thank you so much, James, for putting the effort into this. I think,
while many of us may not like the results, it is *very* useful to
know them.
Given the results, I support all 3 of James' recommendations.

> Sebastian has assured me that these ODDs would be fairly
> straightforward.
Yes, they would be fairly straitforward. But how would a user
incorporate the example into his or her own customization?
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From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Sat Feb 10 00:18:35 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:18:35 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] Assessment of Example infrastructure Message-ID: <45CD55AB.5060304@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:18:35 +0900
Assessment of Example infrastructure
At the last Council meeting, I was instructed to asses how the current
infrastructure could cope with the internationalization of examples.
Here is the result.
1. The current infrastructure embeds examples into the *spec file of
the thing it is meant to illustrate.
2. Othe I18N features, for example the translation of elements is
handles by embedding the translations into the *spec file. Translations
are identified by their @xml:lang attribute value.
A similar mechanism could be adopted for examples, which would be the
easiest solution, that is using @xml:lang on egXML.
A drawback of the current setup (not limited to I18N) is that there is a
1:1 relationship between example and exemplified feature. This means
that if one and the same example could be used to illustrate multiple
elements, it has to be repeated. A possible solution would be to store
the examples elsewhere and indicate the identity of the thing
illustrated by a @targets element, which should then point to the @ident
value of the thing illustrated. This would require a reshuffling of
bytes in the sourcetree, which if necessary should be undertaken rather
soon.
Christian Wittern

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 10 2007 - 00:19:17 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 10 06:12:25 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:12:25 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <45CD18D6.60109@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45CDA899.9070408@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:12:25 +0000
I'm aiming to put some work in on this today,
and test James' proposal locally, assuming agreement.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 10 2007 - 06:12:43 EST
From dporter at uky.edu Sat Feb 10 07:18:16 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 07:18:16 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <45CDA899.9070408@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <96f3df640702100418l1dbf3cb2r7f11d60a4712af85@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 07:18:16 -0500
I agree.
On 2/10/07, Sebastian Rahtz ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> I'm aiming to put some work in on this today,
> and test James' proposal locally, assuming agreement.
>
> --
> Sebastian Rahtz
>
> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
>
> OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>

-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 10 2007 - 07:18:19 EST

From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Sat Feb 10 09:38:54 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 07:38:54 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <96f3df640702100418l1dbf3cb2r7f11d60a4712af85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1171118334.10295.3.camel@caedmon>
From: Daniel O'Donnell
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 07:38:54 -0700
I thought the comments about the library community were the most
convincing reason for keeping both.
-dan
On Sat, 2007-02-10 at 07:18 -0500, Dot Porter wrote:
> I agree.
>
> On 2/10/07, Sebastian Rahtz ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> > I'm aiming to put some work in on this today,
> > and test James' proposal locally, assuming agreement.
> >
> > --
> > Sebastian Rahtz
> >
> > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
> > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
> >
> > OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> > http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > tei-council mailing list
> > tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
> >
>
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell_at_uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 10 2007 - 09:38:59 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 10 09:57:01 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:57:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <17869.8445.930274.347152@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45CDDD3D.8020901@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:57:01 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> Yes, they would be fairly straitforward. But how would a user
> incorporate the example into his or her own customization?
>
There must be an 80:20 argument here. For some
things, we provide a tick box in Roma, or an exemplar.
For other things, we expect the ODD designer
to be able to read a web page on the wiki or
wherever, and know how to cut and paste.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 10 2007 - 09:57:13 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 10 10:02:32 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:02:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <45CD18D6.60109@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45CDDE88.9030909@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:02:32 +0000
comment #27 was mildly interesting, because it is a bit like
the way the TEI Guidelines themselves are marked up
(on which subject I bent Lou's ear on Friday, arguing the
Guidelines are unnecessarily complex in this respect).
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 10 2007 - 10:02:44 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 10 10:31:53 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:31:53 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] tei release In-Reply-To: <17868.63837.318745.887157@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45CDE569.3070004@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:31:53 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> IMHO we need not only div0Like and div1Like, we also need div2Like,
> div3Like, etc. There isn't really all that much point in having
> numbered divs unless each is in its own model class, so that I can
> easily say " and are div1Like,
is
> div2Like, and , , and are div3Like".
>
It's going to be gruesome, but I can't deny
the strength of the argument.
I have duly implemented all this locally
and am now running a full test. The main
downside so far is that the Guidelines themselves
are no longer valid (since they use div0).
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 10 2007 - 10:32:04 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sat Feb 10 12:27:41 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:27:41 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <45CD18D6.60109@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45CE008D.6090704@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:27:41 +0000
I think James has done a great job here. I assume he'll be posting this
summary along with the decisions arising from it to TEI-L in due course.
For the record, I also agree with his conclusions as follows:
1. we should abolish div0
2. we should retain a choice between div and div1 as the next hierarchic
level within front, body, back
3. this kind of user-consultation can be very effective
However, I feel the need for some reassurance about the way it's
proposed to make all these additional model classes. Two reasons have
been advanced:
a. without them, it is hard or impossible to define a robust content
model for body etc.
b. with them, users can use more "natural" like element names ("chapter"
"section" etc.)
Reason (a) looks plausible -- "robust" here means that you can delete
things from a schema without generating ambiguity, and this will at a
stroke reduce the number of white hairs generated when trying to make
sense of the existing content models
Reason (b) I like less. Why do we have
s at all if we are going to
do this? It is contrary to the original design decision, which was to
apply Occam's razor to this problem (you say "section" and I say "part"
-- let's call the whole thing "div"). Maybe I'm just worried about all
the rewriting that will have to be done if we take this proposal seriously.
Lou

James Cummings wrote:
> Dear Council,
>
> I have closed the TEI Numbered Divs survey and would like to report on
> the results. I have made a PDF of the summary report that Survey
> Monkey provides. It is available for download at:
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 10 12:37:59 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:37:59 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <45CE008D.6090704@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45CE02F7.5030906@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:37:59 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
>
> However, I feel the need for some reassurance about the way it's
> proposed to make all these additional model classes. Two reasons have
> been advanced:
>
> a. without them, it is hard or impossible to define a robust content
> model for body etc.
> b. with them, users can use more "natural" like element names
> ("chapter" "section" etc.)
>
> Reason (a) looks plausible -- "robust" here means that you can delete
> things from a schema without generating ambiguity, and this will at a
> stroke reduce the number of white hairs generated when trying to make
> sense of the existing content models
want to bet? the content model for body remains quite complex....
>
> Reason (b) I like less. Why do we have
s at all if we are going
> to do this? It is contrary to the original design decision, which
> was to apply Occam's razor to this problem (you say "section" and I
> say "part" -- let's call the whole thing "div").
> Maybe I'm just worried about all the rewriting that will have to be
> done if we take this proposal seriously.
The ability to name "div1" to "chapter" is already there, its just

what we now have is the ability to add "" _alongside_ "" so that
it behaves in the same manner. Good or bad? who knows. Its a natural fallout
from using classes.
I don't think any serious rewriting is needed by a decision to remove
"div0"; applying
the class struggle to divN does not affect the day to day prose of the
guidelines.
We may note that it will now be much easier to remove div4, div5, div6
and div7.
Anyway, the classification of the div elements is an obvious completion
of the
work started in 2005, and I don't see a real reason to reopen that subject.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 10 2007 - 12:38:12 EST
From James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 10 13:43:52 2007 From: James.Cummings at oucs.ox.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:43:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <45CE008D.6090704@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45CE1268.3000401@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:43:52 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
> I think James has done a great job here. I assume he'll be posting this
> summary along with the decisions arising from it to TEI-L in due course.
Yes, I will, but I will wait until Council agrees overall what should be done,
or a reasonable length of time, whichever happens first.

> For the record, I also agree with his conclusions as follows:
> 1. we should abolish div0
> 2. we should retain a choice between div and div1 as the next hierarchic
> level within front, body, back
> 3. this kind of user-consultation can be very effective
Is there anyone on council who, after reading the survey results, has good
arguments for disagreeing with these proposals? (Please, speak now, I'd prefer
to hear them before announcing such changes to TEI-L).
-James
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 10 2007 - 13:44:07 EST

From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Sat Feb 10 15:48:17 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:48:17 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <45CE1268.3000401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1171140497.6077.1.camel@caedmon>
From: Daniel O'Donnell
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 13:48:17 -0700
> > For the record, I also agree with his conclusions as follows:
> > 1. we should abolish div0
> > 2. we should retain a choice between div and div1 as the next hierarchic
> > level within front, body, back
> > 3. this kind of user-consultation can be very effective
>
> Is there anyone on council who, after reading the survey results, has good
> arguments for disagreeing with these proposals? (Please, speak now, I'd prefer
> to hear them before announcing such changes to TEI-L).
My only fear is the DLF people. Do we know if they start with div1 or
div0? Syd has done work with them. Do you know Syd? I can't believe I'm
urging caution on getting rid of any of the divNs ;)
-dan
>
> -James
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell_at_uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 10 2007 - 15:48:27 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Feb 10 17:10:47 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:10:47 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <1171140497.6077.1.camel@caedmon> Message-ID: <17870.17127.991283.198786@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 17:10:47 -0500
> My only fear is the DLF people. Do we know if they start with div1
> or div0? Syd has done work with them. Do you know Syd? I can't
> believe I'm urging caution on getting rid of any of the divNs ;)
I don't have any special knowledge in my tiny brain, but I do know
where to look.
* the survey itself -- I believe quite a few librarians responded
* the current "TEI in Libraries" document, which explicitly says "we
prefer that not be used since the TEI Guidelines does not
make it available in or matter"[1]
* the proposed "TEI Tite" document, which lists as one of the
elements that has been excluded[2]
So I think we're pretty safe in ditching (as much as it breaks
my heart!)-:
Notes
-----
[1] http://www.diglib.org/standards/tei.htm
I think I've already pointed out that disagreement in
number to them, but perhaps should mention it again :-)
[2] I just realized that this draft document has not been sent to
Council or the DLF yet, which I thought was supposed to happen
weeks ago. I will send an inquiry to John Unsworth right now.
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From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Sat Feb 10 17:21:50 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:21:50 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <17870.17127.991283.198786@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <1171146110.8918.0.camel@caedmon>
From: Daniel O'Donnell
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 15:21:50 -0700
Thanks Syd.
On Sat, 2007-02-10 at 17:10 -0500, Syd Bauman wrote:
> > My only fear is the DLF people. Do we know if they start with div1
> > or div0? Syd has done work with them. Do you know Syd? I can't
> > believe I'm urging caution on getting rid of any of the divNs ;)
>
> I don't have any special knowledge in my tiny brain, but I do know
> where to look.
>
> * the survey itself -- I believe quite a few librarians responded
>
> * the current "TEI in Libraries" document, which explicitly says "we
> prefer that not be used since the TEI Guidelines does not
> make it available in or matter"[1]
>
> * the proposed "TEI Tite" document, which lists as one of the
> elements that has been excluded[2]
>
> So I think we're pretty safe in ditching (as much as it breaks
> my heart!)-:
>
> Notes
> -----
> [1] http://www.diglib.org/standards/tei.htm
> I think I've already pointed out that disagreement in
> number to them, but perhaps should mention it again :-)
> [2] I just realized that this draft document has not been sent to
> Council or the DLF yet, which I thought was supposed to happen
> weeks ago. I will send an inquiry to John Unsworth right now.
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Department Chair and Associate Professor of English Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Chair, Text Encoding Initiative http://www.tei-c.org/ Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox +1 403 329-2377 Fax +1 403 382-7191 Email: daniel.odonnell_at_uleth.ca WWW: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 10 2007 - 17:21:55 EST
From Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz Sun Feb 11 16:47:13 2007 From: Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz (Conal Tuohy) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:47:13 +1300 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <[tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results.> Message-ID:
From: Conal Tuohy
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:47:13 +1300
Cheers James!
Interesting results and I agree with your recommendations.
Con
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From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Sun Feb 11 18:13:05 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:13:05 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <45CDDE88.9030909@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45CFA301.10907@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:13:05 +0900
James, Arianna,
Thanks for suggesting the survey and shepherding it along. This
provides and excellent base for our decision.
As I was foolish enough to indicate my expectations before, I am pleased
to see them met here:-) So basically, I think we should go along with
James recommendations.
The only thing that worries me a bit is this:
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> comment #27 was mildly interesting, because it is a bit like
> the way the TEI Guidelines themselves are marked up
> (on which subject I bent Lou's ear on Friday, arguing the
> Guidelines are unnecessarily complex in this respect).
>
The comment is

We start with *div1* in almost all cases, but use *div0* where there is
some extraordinary high-level division of a text (say, division of a
work into "book 1" and "book 2"). That way, our navigation structure can
continue to rely on *div1* for user display, but we can still accurately
reflect the true structure of
the work.

If I understand things right, we would not be able to use
above
to accomodate this use case?
We should also make it clear that this was one of the reasons to *not*
use numbered divs in the first case.
(What do you intend to do with the Guidelines themselves? Continue with
numbered divs or ditching them?)
best, chw

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 11 2007 - 18:13:54 EST

From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sun Feb 11 18:19:12 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou's Laptop) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:19:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <45CFA301.10907@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45CFA470.10305@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou's Laptop
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:19:12 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
>
> (What do you intend to do with the Guidelines themselves? Continue
> with numbered divs or ditching them?)
>
After discussion, Syd and I agreed to convert the Guidelines source from
numbered to vanilla divs, and I have spent most of today implementing
and testing same (along with abolishing div0 per Council decision)

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Received on Sun Feb 11 2007 - 18:19:38 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 11 18:23:15 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:23:15 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <45CFA301.10907@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45CFA563.5080007@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:23:15 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
>
>
> We start with *div1* in almost all cases, but use *div0* where there
> is some extraordinary high-level division of a text (say, division of
> a work into "book 1" and "book 2"). That way, our navigation structure
> can continue to rely on *div1* for user display, but we can still
> accurately reflect the true structure of
> the work.
>
>
> If I understand things right, we would not be able to use
above
> to accomodate this use case?
> We should also make it clear that this was one of the reasons to *not*
> use numbered divs in the first case.
>
no, but they could put back . There is an example file in the P5
Test area now
to demonstrate this.
> (What do you intend to do with the Guidelines themselves? Continue
> with numbered divs or ditching them?)
>
Lou is working on this as we speak.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 11 2007 - 18:23:18 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 11 18:44:46 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:44:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Assessment of Example infrastructure In-Reply-To: <45CD55AB.5060304@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45CFAA6E.9090101@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:44:46 +0000
> A similar mechanism could be adopted for examples, which would be the
> easiest solution, that is using @xml:lang on egXML.
>
or some type attribute on . is always inside
.
> A drawback of the current setup (not limited to I18N) is that there is a
> 1:1 relationship between example and exemplified feature. This means
> that if one and the same example could be used to illustrate multiple
> elements, it has to be repeated. A possible solution would be to store
> the examples elsewhere and indicate the identity of the thing
> illustrated by a @targets element, which should then point to the @ident
> value of the thing illustrated. This would require a reshuffling of
> bytes in the sourcetree, which if necessary should be undertaken rather
> soon.
>
can be empty, and could use one of the global attributes
(is it @corresp? sorry, its late, am just off to bed) to indicate that
another
example (identified by ID) is equally good here.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 11 2007 - 18:44:50 EST
From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Feb 13 06:51:03 2007 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:51:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI Numbered Divs Survey: The Results. In-Reply-To: <45CE1268.3000401@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45D1A627.7000209@kcl.ac.uk>
From: Arianna Ciula
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:51:03 +0000
Sorry for replying so late. We had a power failure at King's still
affecting some of our servers.
I agree with all the recommendations James proposed and thanks to him to
have taken charge of this.
Arianna
James Cummings wrote:
> Lou Burnard wrote:
>> I think James has done a great job here. I assume he'll be posting
>> this summary along with the decisions arising from it to TEI-L in due
>> course.
>
> Yes, I will, but I will wait until Council agrees overall what should be
> done, or a reasonable length of time, whichever happens first.
>
>
>> For the record, I also agree with his conclusions as follows:
>> 1. we should abolish div0
>> 2. we should retain a choice between div and div1 as the next
>> hierarchic level within front, body, back
>> 3. this kind of user-consultation can be very effective
>
> Is there anyone on council who, after reading the survey results, has
> good arguments for disagreeing with these proposals? (Please, speak
> now, I'd prefer to hear them before announcing such changes to TEI-L).
>
> -James
-- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London Strand London WC2R 2LS (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 13 2007 - 06:51:39 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Feb 15 11:03:31 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:03:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [tei-council] date attributes: summary, problems, and some suggestions In-Reply-To: <45C867D4.3080206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <200702151603.l1FG3V2N007860@perseus.services.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 11:03:31 -0500 (EST)
> > Problems
> > --------
> > * Some are distressed by the fact that attributes that are of the
> > same datatype (data.temporal) and serve similar functions have
> > different names, in particular:
> > value= of ,
> > date= of , , and
> > I am not bothered by this in the least, because I think the
> > semantics are clearer with these names, and the combined
> > alternative (dateValue=) is at least cumbersome if not misleading
> > (i.e., on
> > Suggestion: leave names as they are.
CW> fine
SR> OK. its a minor annoyance/distress, but not worth arguing about
That was easy.

> > - Put into att.datePart. This has the disadvantage of
> > giving a dur= attribute, but I'm not sure it is worth
> > making another class just for this one case. Thoughts?
CW> we should not carry the class economy to far, I think. Having
CW> attributes that do not make sense for a certain element should
CW> automatically recommend it for a separate class.
SR> no worries. I am sure someone will find an amusing use for @dur
I'm with Christian on this one. (In part because I think Sebastian is
right, and the amusing use of dur= worries me.)

> > - Create a new attribute class for the date= of , ,
> > and . (Any suggestions for the name?)
CW> att.datePart.date?
SR> att.dateValue
Hmmm... how about att.normalizedDate?

> > - If we keep [1] we may wish to reconsider its class
> > membership, as value= is a bit silly on . It needs only
> > dur= from att.datePart, making two cases that benefit from
> > splitting att.datePart. (See , above.)
> kill distance
Is anyone in favor of keeping ? Is anyone besides me, Lou,
and Sebastian in favor of deleting it?

> > * The precision= attribute is superfluous, as the precision is ...
> > Suggestion: delete it.
SR> OK
Going once, ...
going twice ...

> > * Users want a method of expressing [known day & month, unknown
> > year, or specific possible dates within a range]
> > Suggestion: I haven't got one, thus defer to P5 1.1.
SR> I agree.
CW> Whats the point of putting this in an attribute anyway?
I suppose that's a good question, Christian. In any case, it's not
one we're going to directly solve for P5 1.0, it seems. However, when
we instantiate a "user-defined" system, users will, of course, be
permitted to whip up their own systems.

> > The basic idea is to provide two capabilities:
> > * simple date format: conform to W3C spec, easily validatable, software
> > support in the world-at-large
> > * complex date format: should conform to ISO 8601 if possible
SR> The principle is fine, yes.
> > [Including shifting representation of imprecise times to 'complex
> > date' format.]
CW> This seems to be quite desirable to me.
So, we're agreed on the basic idea, that's good.

> > attribute level: each of the dating attrs is split into two
> > datatype level: we provide one datatype for each date format, user
> > chooses which for each attribute
> > class level: for each attribute set, we provide two (or more) classes,
> > one for each format, user chooses which for each element
> > all-in-one: syntax of attribute value differentiates
SB> Up front I can only say that I don't like the 'attribute level'
SB> solution. It's just too confusing for the average user, most of
SB> whom have little or nothing to gain.
SR> I would rule out the attribute level solution, just too confusing
SR> for day to day use.
OK, attribute level is out. One down.

CW> At the moment, I am inclined to go with [datatype level] solution
SR> The multiple datatypes are interesting, but "the users chooses
SR> which datatype to use for any given attribute" is a bit clumsy.
SR> If you switch to an ISO or USER model, would you do it piecemeal?
SR> wouldn't it always be a global decision?
Not at all! Most obviously, I probably want the date= of to
be a simple format date (W3C) even if I need to use the complex date
format for the value= of that is inside my transcription of a
17th century diary.

SR> More importantly, this means that when I see
SR> coming at me, I cannot easily deal with it without parsing the ODD
SR> in relatively complex ways. I really don't like the idea of @from
SR> and @to changing their meaning under my feet constantly, or having
SR> to refer back to ad hoc notations in the header.
I think this is a really compelling argument against the datatype
level solution, even though it's not as bad as Sebastian makes it
sound. (And I don't know what these ad hoc notations in the header
are.) To ascertain what kind of date it is processing, software need
only
* follow the link in the yet-to-be-agreed-upon-let-alone-specified
mechanism in the instance that points to the schema;
* find the declaration for the attribute in question;
* see what kind of datatype it is declared as.
So while it doesn't require parsing the ODD, it is still way too
complex. Besides, it boils down to a situation in which the schema is
adding information to the instance (much the way a DTD can add a
default attribute value), which if not morally abhorrent, is at least
something that should be avoided.
So unless Christian or someone else comes up with a good counter-
argument, I think we should stop considering the datatype-level
solution.

SR> The class solution is sort of elegant, but falls down somewhat in
SR> implementation problems.
I'm confused -- you suggest a quite reasonable implementation below.

SR> The all-in-one solution is cute, but presumably not supported by
SR> validating software or other standards?
I've thought about it a bit more, and I think the all-in-one solution
is more than cute, I think it has a lot to say for it.
A reminder as to how it would work:
One attribute, syntax of value determines what kind of date format:
no prefix = entire value is a simple format (i.e. W3C) date
prefix 'i-' = remainder of value is an ISO 8601 date
prefix 'x-' = remainder of value is a user-defined format date
Thus:





Yes, this system is not supported by validating software or other
standards (although it bears a nice resemblance to RFC 3066 tags, the
two are not related in any way except that TEI might use them as
attribute values), but I think that's a red herring. None of the other
solutions are supported in any way, either.
None of the user-created formats are ever going to have standard
software suite support, so I don't think we should fret much over
that. So the question is, do we think that someone is going to
develop a datatype library for ISO 8601? Because if the answer is
"yes", then we should probably use one of the more complicated
solutions in anticipation that someday we could make use of that
datatype. If there answer is "no", then value="i-2007-02-10T17:58"
seems to be just as useful as value-iso="2007-02-10T17:58", and it
makes the whole system a lot easier on the user, and not particularly
difficult on software.
As to whether or not someone is likely to develop an ISO 8601 or other
useful datatype library, I don't know. I know there has been some
discussion about datatype libraries in general, and that Jenni
Tennison has gone so far as to prototype a declarative language for
defining them[1], but except for Elliotte Rusty Harold's
prime-number-checking example[2], I don't know of any actual datatype
libraries that have been built in the > 5 years that Relax NG has been
around. Does anyone else?

So, IMHO, we are down to either class-level or all-in-one.
SR> I think we should basically go with the class solution, and accept
SR> that elements will gain extra attributes of the form value.XXX
SR>
SR> We implement it as follows:
So, if I understand you correctly, you are suggesting something like
the following (which is different, because I've accommodated renaming
and the need for separate classes for value= and dur=):
When "ISOdate" and "UserDate" modules are loaded:
att.dateTime.w3c = @value
att.duration.w3c = @dur
att.datable.w3c = @notBefore, @notAfter, @from, @to
att.dateTime.iso = @iso-value
att.duration.iso = @iso-dur
att.datable.iso = @iso-notBefore, @iso-notAfter, @iso-from, @iso-to
att.dateTime.usr = @usr-value
att.duration.usr = @usr-dur
att.datable.usr = @usr-notBefore, @usr-notAfter, @usr-from, @usr-to
When those modules are not loaded, all of the .iso and .usr classes
are empty. (BTW, we may well decide the "UserDate" module and thus all
the .usr ones are not needed.)
att.dateTime is a member of all three att.dateTime.[iso,usr,w3c]
att.duration is a member of all three att.duration.[iso,usr,w3c]
att.datable is a member of all three att.datable.[iso,usr,w3c]
By default, the various elements are members of the superclass. I.e.,
and

SR> * people who want to define att.datable.Etruscan as a new class simply
SR> do so, and change att.datable to be member of that new class
SR> * if desired, individual elements can be made members of
SR> att.datable.Etruscan
Right, which is why the "UserDate" module and various .usr classes may
not be needed.

SR> * people can redefine att.datable.w3c to use ISO if they want
SR> to freeze in hell forever and ever
Not sure they'd freeze in hell, but I hope we can craft a definition
of TEI conformance that leaves them out in the cold of non-
conformance.

SR> I believe that the complexity of adding an extra set of attributes
SR> is worth it for the simplicity and extensibility.
Can you elaborate on how this is more simple or more extensible than
the "all-in-one" solution? I think "all-in-one" is simpler for the end
user, and not particularly more complicated for the programmer. And
both seem equally extensible. However, I think the class solution is
cleaner, and permits more flexibility. E.g., a user can choose to have
element have only a plain ("simple date format", aka W3C) value=
attribute, element to have only a "complex date format" (aka ISO)
iso-value= attribute, and element to have both. With the
"all-in-one" the user has no such flexibility: any , , or
has one simple value= attribute, the value of which may be a simple or
complex date format.

SR> The model I am following here is that of att.global, which picks
SR> up extra meaning if you load new modules
Right, makes sense.

SR> If you buy the "module" route, it means that we could add
SR> att.datable.iso at 1.1 if we wanted.
Indeed. Although personally, I'd be inclined to add the .iso class at
1.0, and then work on a datatype to actually constrain it well for
1.1.

Notes
-----
[1] http://www.jenitennison.com/datatypes/
[2] http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-custyp/
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Received on Thu Feb 15 2007 - 11:03:34 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Feb 15 11:39:43 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:39:43 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] date attributes: summary, problems, and some suggestions In-Reply-To: <200702151603.l1FG3V2N007860@perseus.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45D48CCF.3010402@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 16:39:43 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> CW> we should not carry the class economy to far, I think. Having
> CW> attributes that do not make sense for a certain element should
> CW> automatically recommend it for a separate class.
>
> SR> no worries. I am sure someone will find an amusing use for @dur
>
> I'm with Christian on this one. (In part because I think Sebastian is
> right, and the amusing use of dur= worries me.)
>
I'll concede that one, not a strong feeling on my part
>
> CW> att.datePart.date?
>
> SR> att.dateValue
>
> Hmmm... how about att.normalizedDate?
>
sure
>
> SR> If you switch to an ISO or USER model, would you do it piecemeal?
> SR> wouldn't it always be a global decision?
>
> Not at all! Most obviously, I probably want the date= of to
> be a simple format date (W3C) even if I need to use the complex date
> format for the value= of that is inside my transcription of a
> 17th century diary.
>
OK, I see the example, but that makes it even more important
not to use the same attribute.
> are.) To ascertain what kind of date it is processing, software need
> only
> * follow the link in the yet-to-be-agreed-upon-let-alone-specified
> mechanism in the instance that points to the schema;
> * find the declaration for the attribute in question;
> * see what kind of datatype it is declared as.
>
IF (a big "if") we mandated the "yet-to-be-agreed-upon-let-alone-specified
mechanism in the instance that points to the schema", I could
sort of go along. But for TEI P5 1.0, I just don't see this
work being completed and implemented by anyone.
> One attribute, syntax of value determines what kind of date format:
>
> no prefix = entire value is a simple format (i.e. W3C) date
> prefix 'i-' = remainder of value is an ISO 8601 date
> prefix 'x-' = remainder of value is a user-defined format date
>
> Thus:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
I would not actually blow up Parliament in protest
if we adopted that, but I still don't like the idea
of @value sometimes being valid with standard
datatypes and sometimes not.
> None of the user-created formats are ever going to have standard
> software suite support, so I don't think we should fret much over
> that.
agreed. but at least lets isolate them in their own names.
>
> So, IMHO, we are down to either class-level or all-in-one.
>
thats progress.
....
> By default, the various elements are members of the superclass. I.e.,
> and
> user really does not want the plain W3C flavor attributes, she can
> delete att.dateTime.w3c and att.duration.w3c.
>
> On thought on this last bit: why doesn't she just make
> direct members of att.dateTime.iso and att.duration.iso? My gut
> instinct is that this provides more flexibility: I can have be
> a member of att.dateTime.w3c,
> and my new a member of att.dateTime, thus getting both
> attributes.
>
Sure. Thats just a design pattern, though. The underlying
system remains the same. The default is to be a member
of the superclass, right?
>
> SR> * people who want to define att.datable.Etruscan as a new class simply
> SR> do so, and change att.datable to be member of that new class
> SR> * if desired, individual elements can be made members of
> SR> att.datable.Etruscan
>
> Right, which is why the "UserDate" module and various .usr classes may
> not be needed.
>
Yes. It does seem slightly simpler to define each new scheme
as a new class, rather than overload one "usr" class.
> SR> I believe that the complexity of adding an extra set of attributes
> SR> is worth it for the simplicity and extensibility.
>
> Can you elaborate on how this is more simple or more extensible than
> the "all-in-one" solution? I think "all-in-one" is simpler for the end
> user, and not particularly more complicated for the programmer.
out of the box, what would the the datatype of @value be?
how do I indicate that I am happy in a Barbie^H^H^H^H^H^HW3C
world, and I want all the datatype checking my standard
software can provide me? or how do I switch to alternate mode?
my aim would be for the simplest situation to require no
work for the user, and maximum support.
....
> Indeed. Although personally, I'd be inclined to add the .iso class at
> 1.0, and then work on a datatype to actually constrain it well for
> 1.1.
>
sure, no problem
as I read your message, you've more or less
persuaded yourself to agree with my class
proposal a la att.global?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Feb 15 2007 - 11:39:56 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Feb 15 19:04:57 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:04:57 -0500 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! Message-ID: <17876.62761.972180.960950@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:04:57 -0500
OK. I realize dating attributes can make your head spin -- heck, I
got so dizzy I had to take breaks while writing that last posting.
But given that we are in pedal-to-the-metal mode to get moving on P5,
I would like to avoid waiting for 2 weeks to see if anyone has
comments on it, only to find they don't.
Christian, Daniel, and Sebastian are working on getting a working
project management system up for P5, which will hopefully include
(among other things) a voting system for Council to use to express
its wishes. But that's at least days away, so in the meantime
Christian has authorized me to use the following far cruder system.
I really want each and every one of us to reply to this posting
within 72 hours having checked off one box for each of the following.

Issue: name of main dating attr (date= vs value=)
Solution: leave 'em as is
Vote:
___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
ahead
___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
but expect to contribute soon

Issue: classes -- @dur and @value in same or different attr classes?
Solution: split 'em into separate classes
Vote:
___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
ahead
___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
but expect to contribute soon

Issue: keep ?
Solution: nuke it
Vote:
___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
ahead
___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
but expect to contribute soon

Issue: keep precision= of
Solution: nuke it
Vote:
___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
ahead
___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
but expect to contribute soon

Issue: method of expressing known day & month, unknown year, or
specific possible dates within a range
Suggestion: defer to P5 1.x.
Vote:
___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
ahead
___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
but expect to contribute soon

Issue: constraint of date-regularization attributes: W3C, ISO, other
Suggestions:
A ("attribute level"): duplicate current attrs for each different system
B ("datatype level"): create duplicate datatype for each different
system
C ("class level"): create classes for each set of attrs from
different systems; possibly implement with a new
module so attrs are added when that module is
loaded (like att.metrical gets added to
att.divLike when verse is loaded)
D ("all-in-one"): differentiate system by value's syntax
Vote:
I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution:
___ A
___ B
___ C
___ D
I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution:
___ A
___ B
___ C
___ D
___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
ahead with whatever
___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
but expect to contribute soon

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Received on Thu Feb 15 2007 - 19:05:02 EST

From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Thu Feb 15 19:13:12 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:13:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SF FR updates Message-ID: <45D4F718.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:13:12 +0000
I'm working through my open SFFRs and haven't hit too many rocks yet.
1022116: add as child of : Done
1012817, 1561323: fiddle with in various ways: Did one, but
not the other
1022701: add as co-member of new class model.addressLike with
: Done
I'd like Council members to ponder this one though:
1007370: create new element possibly in FT
I think there's a good case for this, but it needs someone to work on
producing documentation for it. If I stop to do that, I won't get
anything else done for a week. So should I just close the ticket and say
"next release"? Could Council members please take a look at the ticket,
and then respond (to me rather than the list) with their choice from
the following:
A: this is a daft idea for the following reasons
B: this is a good idea, but needs more work: we should charter a
workgroup to do it for P5.n
C: this is a good idea and I will send you some material to support it
by St Davids Day




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From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Feb 15 19:26:48 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:26:48 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] SF FR updates In-Reply-To: <45D4F718.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17876.64072.775222.689910@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 19:26:48 -0500
> Could Council members please take a look at the ticket, and then
> respond (to me rather than the list) with their choice from the
> following:
Is there a reason to keep this discussion private?

> C: this is a good idea and I will send you some material to support
> it by St Davids Day
St David's day is 03-01, yes?
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Received on Thu Feb 15 2007 - 19:26:52 EST

From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Thu Feb 15 19:41:49 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:41:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SF FR updates In-Reply-To: <17876.64072.775222.689910@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45D4FDCD.7070704@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:41:49 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
>> Could Council members please take a look at the ticket, and then
>> respond (to me rather than the list) with their choice from the
>> following:
>>
>
> Is there a reason to keep this discussion private?
>
I will summarize the response I get to this list, obviously. I'm just
trying to reduce people's email burden.
>
>
>> C: this is a good idea and I will send you some material to support
>> it by St Davids Day
>>
>
> St David's day is 03-01, yes?
>
>
It's the 1st March, not the 3rd January.

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>
>
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From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Thu Feb 15 20:04:50 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:04:50 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] date attributes: summary, problems, and some suggestions In-Reply-To: <45D48CCF.3010402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45D50332.9070609@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:04:50 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Syd Bauman wrote:
>>
>> Hmmm... how about att.normalizedDate?
>>
> sure
fine
>>
> IF (a big "if") we mandated the "yet-to-be-agreed-upon-let-alone-specified
> mechanism in the instance that points to the schema", I could
> sort of go along. But for TEI P5 1.0, I just don't see this
> work being completed and implemented by anyone.
I will go out on a limb here and suggest a "small" solution: In the
wilderness of the XML universe, there exist already a number of ways to
associate an instance with a non-DTD schema:
XSD uses schemaLocation
oXygen uses a pi "oxygen"
nxml uses a elaborated mechanism which somehow ends in processing a
schemas.xml file
.. there will be others.
How about we just give the users a spot in the header to declare which
one they are using ("xsd", "oxygen", "nxml", "you-name-it"), without
actually implementing our own? The only thing we will have to ponder is
if we want to maintain a registry of values for this list -- I would say
that might be the price we have to pay for this.
To me, this is one of the infrastructural issues we should not lightly
postpone.
Now back to the topic,
>> One attribute, syntax of value determines what kind of date format:
>> no prefix = entire value is a simple format (i.e. W3C) date
>> prefix 'i-' = remainder of value is an ISO 8601 date
>> prefix 'x-' = remainder of value is a user-defined format date
>>
>> Thus:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> I would not actually blow up Parliament in protest
> if we adopted that, but I still don't like the idea
> of @value sometimes being valid with standard
> datatypes and sometimes not.
You will need to check for the type before blindly processing them.
What I like is the self-declaring and on-the-spot expandable property of
this proposal.
>> None of the user-created formats are ever going to have standard
>> software suite support, so I don't think we should fret much over
>> that.
> agreed. but at least lets isolate them in their own names.
Which will put a burden on you if you suddenly discover a new type of
dates in your texts to go back to the schema-drawing-room called Roma
for another round.
>>
>> So, IMHO, we are down to either class-level or all-in-one.
> thats progress.
I'm with you here.
> as I read your message, you've more or less
> persuaded yourself to agree with my class
> proposal a la att.global?

Except that we still have the all-in-one proposal. I might be biased
since I
work more or less daily with xml:lang attributes, but that solution has
the advantage
of being simpler technically.
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Feb 15 2007 - 20:05:36 EST

From Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz Thu Feb 15 20:49:18 2007 From: Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz (Conal Tuohy) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:49:18 +1300 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: <[tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE!> Message-ID:
From: Conal Tuohy
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 14:49:18 +1300
Here's my 2c
> Issue: name of main dating attr (date= vs value=)
> Solution: leave 'em as is
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
>
> ___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
> ahead
>
> ___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
> but expect to contribute soon
>
>
> Issue: classes -- @dur and @value in same or different attr classes?
> Solution: split 'em into separate classes
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
>
> ___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
> ahead
>
> ___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
> but expect to contribute soon
>
>
> Issue: keep ?
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
>
> ___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
> ahead
>
> ___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
> but expect to contribute soon
>
>
> Issue: keep precision= of
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
>
> ___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
> ahead
>
> ___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
> but expect to contribute soon
>
>
> Issue: method of expressing known day & month, unknown year, or
> specific possible dates within a range
> Suggestion: defer to P5 1.x.
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
>
> ___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
> ahead
>
> ___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
> but expect to contribute soon
>
>
> Issue: constraint of date-regularization attributes: W3C, ISO, other
> Suggestions:
> A ("attribute level"): duplicate current attrs for each
> different system
> B ("datatype level"): create duplicate datatype for each different
> system
> C ("class level"): create classes for each set of attrs from
> different systems; possibly implement with a new
> module so attrs are added when that module is
> loaded (like att.metrical gets added to
> att.divLike when verse is loaded)
> D ("all-in-one"): differentiate system by value's syntax
>
> Vote:
>
> I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution:
> _X_ A
> ___ B
> ___ C
> _X_ D
>
> I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution:
> ___ A
> _X_ B
> _X_ C
> ___ D
>
> ___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
> ahead with whatever
>
> _X_ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
> but expect to contribute soon
That last one is tricky.
I'm not sure, Syd and Sebastian, why you have characterised the
"attribute-level" solution (A) as NOT making the easy things easy, and
"just too confusing for day to day use". Could you clarify where the
confusion might lie please? It seems to me that we could have value="2007">this year and that this is easy. So I must be
missing something.
I think B and C are weaker (if I understand them correctly) in that they
would prohibit mixing calendars in a document (at least, with the same
element, so that date/@value would have to have a consistent type
throughout a document). Is that a correct understanding? Would that be a
problem for historical markup? Maybe not, in which case the objection is
probably moot. However, options A and D would allow mixing calendars. In
some ways I prefer D because it implies that the attributes have
particular semantics which are in a sense independent of the particular
calendrical "syntax" used. But on the other hand I'm not sure that it's
possible to make a hard-and-fast distinction between syntax and
semantics anyway (not in every case at least, since days and years are
pretty standard features of calendars; weeks, months, katuns, etc are
less so). The advantage of A of D would be that the attribute VALUES are
kept "clean" without TEI-imposed prefixes.
All in all, I feel quite ambivalent (multivalent actually!) about these
options.
Incidentally, if option A were favoured (whether as part of option D or
otherwise), one way to implement it might be to use distinct XML
namespaces for the different data types. We could have the default,
W3C-typed, attributes in no namespace (as they are now), and allow
customisations to add date-type attributes in other namespaces. Encoders
could then use whatever namespace prefixes they wanted to e.g. either at
one extreme St David's day or at
the other St David's day depending on
their preference.
Cheers
Con
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From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Feb 15 21:20:43 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:20:43 -0500 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <17877.5371.694544.449968@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:20:43 -0500
> That last one is tricky.
Indeed it is.

> I'm not sure, Syd and Sebastian, why you have characterised the
> "attribute-level" solution (A) as NOT making the easy things easy,
> and "just too confusing for day to day use". Could you clarify
> where the confusion might lie please? It seems to me that we could
> have this year and that this is easy. So
> I must be missing something.
With the attribute-level solution every time any user (who hasn't
removed attributes in her customization) inserts a element,
her XML-aware editor would present here with a slew of possible
attributes:
value=
value.iso=
value.usr=
notBefore=
notBefore.iso=
notBefore.usr=
notAfter=
notAfter.iso=
notAfter.usr=
from=
from.iso=
from.usr=
to=
to.iso=
to.usr=
dur=
dur.iso=
dur.usr=
not to mention the non-date-specific attributes. No simple check-box
style customization could change this. (Although, as I'm fond of
pointing out, it isn't really that hard without the check-box
simplicity.) For the vast majority of users, 2/3 of the above
attributes would never be used, and would just be in the way.

> I think B and C are weaker (if I understand them correctly) in that
> they would prohibit mixing calendars in a document (at least, with
> the same element, so that date/@value would have to have a
> consistent type throughout a document). Is that a correct
> understanding?
Off the top of my head I think that is correct if the user is using
the "simple format" date attributes, regardless of which option we
choose. That's because the simple W3C format is definitionally
Gregorian, and arguably proleptic Gregorian. Things are a little
better with ISO 8601, which is explicitly Gregorian or proleptic
Gregorian, and arguably the syntax could be used for others.
I'm of a mind that, regardless of system, we should define value= and
iso-value= as (proleptic) Gregorian. User-defined values could be of
whatever calendar the user desired. The *content* is in whatever
calendar is specified by calendar=.

> In some ways I prefer D because it implies that the attributes have
> particular semantics which are in a sense independent of the
> particular calendrical "syntax" used.
I'm sorry, I think I'm too tired (or too stupid :-) to understand
this.

> Incidentally, ... use distinct XML namespaces for the different
> data types. ... e.g. ... St David's
> day or ... St David's day
Really interesting idea (that I never thought of) that yields a
very nice syntactic result. But I don't think the implications --
that these attributes somehow belong to some other markup language
than TEI -- are acceptable.

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From Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz Thu Feb 15 22:17:02 2007 From: Conal.Tuohy at vuw.ac.nz (Conal Tuohy) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:17:02 +1300 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: <[tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE!> Message-ID:
From: Conal Tuohy
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:17:02 +1300
> With the attribute-level solution every time any user (who hasn't
> removed attributes in her customization) inserts a element,
> her XML-aware editor would present here with a slew of possible
> attributes:
> value=
> value.iso=
> value.usr=
> notBefore=
> notBefore.iso=
> notBefore.usr=
> notAfter=
> notAfter.iso=
> notAfter.usr=
> from=
> from.iso=
> from.usr=
> to=
> to.iso=
> to.usr=
> dur=
> dur.iso=
> dur.usr=
> not to mention the non-date-specific attributes. No simple check-box
> style customization could change this. (Although, as I'm fond of
> pointing out, it isn't really that hard without the check-box
> simplicity.) For the vast majority of users, 2/3 of the above
> attributes would never be used, and would just be in the way.
Would it not be simpler to make the "complex" attribute sets optional?
i.e. the the default TEI schemas would not include the complex dates,
and the user would have to explicitly add them, if they wanted them,
rather than remove them? Since most users would be fine with just
"simple" (W3) dates, for anything else it might be quite reasonable to
require a customization to explicitly add them.
> > I think B and C are weaker (if I understand them correctly) in that
> > they would prohibit mixing calendars in a document (at least, with
> > the same element, so that date/@value would have to have a
> > consistent type throughout a document). Is that a correct
> > understanding?
>
> Off the top of my head I think that is correct if the user is using
> the "simple format" date attributes, regardless of which option we
> choose. That's because the simple W3C format is definitionally
> Gregorian, and arguably proleptic Gregorian. Things are a little
> better with ISO 8601, which is explicitly Gregorian or proleptic
> Gregorian, and arguably the syntax could be used for others.
> I'm of a mind that, regardless of system, we should define value= and
> iso-value= as (proleptic) Gregorian. User-defined values could be of
> whatever calendar the user desired. The *content* is in whatever
> calendar is specified by calendar=.
Agreed. So if a user wanted to mix a Gregorian with a non-Gregorian
calendar in the same document (which seems to me quite reasonable), I
can see how they could do that with A and D, but how to do that with B
and C?
If B (datatype level), then the mixed-calendar encoder would have to
select the "loose" data type for all dates (the "lowest common
denominator" data type), and they wouldn't get the benefit of
W3C-validation of any dates which genuinely were simple Gregorian dates.

If C (class level), then you suggested 2 options:
C(1): classes use different attribute names, hence can be mixed (from
the encoders' perspective this is the same as option A, just implemented
using classes); or
C(2): classes use the same attribute names, hence they can't be mixed
(from the encoders' perspective this is like option B)
> > In some ways I prefer D because it implies that the attributes have
> > particular semantics which are in a sense independent of the
> > particular calendrical "syntax" used.
>
> I'm sorry, I think I'm too tired (or too stupid :-) to understand
> this.
I just meant that it was an attractive idea to have date/@value rather
than date/@iso-value and date/@w3-value (or whatever), since a date, no
matter how you express it, is still just a date.
> > Incidentally, ... use distinct XML namespaces for the different
> > data types. ... e.g. ... St David's
> > day or ... St David's day
>
> Really interesting idea (that I never thought of) that yields a
> very nice syntactic result. But I don't think the implications --
> that these attributes somehow belong to some other markup language
> than TEI -- are acceptable.
I think that's a strange implication to take. cf @xml:lang and @xml:id
which are inarguably (I hope?!) part of the TEI markup language, despite
belonging to a distinct namespace. Remember, too, that all the other
"TEI" attributes are not in fact in any namespace. An XML markup
language is quite a different beast from an XML namespace. But hey, I'm
not fussed about the idea ... it was just a suggestion.
Con
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 16 05:13:39 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:13:39 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] date attributes: summary, problems, and some suggestions In-Reply-To: <45D50332.9070609@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45D583D3.10001@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:13:39 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
> How about we just give the users a spot in the header to declare which
> one they are using ("xsd", "oxygen", "nxml", "you-name-it"), without
> actually implementing our own? The only thing we will have to ponder
> is if we want to maintain a registry of values for this list -- I
> would say that might be the price we have to pay for this.
>
> To me, this is one of the infrastructural issues we should not lightly
> postpone.
>
I think you need to go over the whole process and explain how it will
work in real life.
Two simple examples
a) I declare my schema to be foo.rnc, in oxygen notation. I am
processing using XSL.
in XSL I cannot read .rnc files (at all easily). how do I access
the datatype info?
b) I am moving hundreds of documents into eXist, and I pull out small
fragments all
the time. for each one, I laboriously find the header, find the
way to referring to the
schema, locate the schema, and look! I have 4 different schemas,
so how now
do I evaluate @value?
>
> You will need to check for the type before blindly processing them.
how? I'm an experienced XML processing person, and I just dread the
thought of considering it. Plus, I want my validation!
>
> Which will put a burden on you if you suddenly discover a new type of
> dates in your texts to go back to the schema-drawing-room called Roma
> for another round.
seems a reasonable price to me!
>
> Except that we still have the all-in-one proposal. I might be biased
> since I
> work more or less daily with xml:lang attributes, but that solution
> has the advantage
> of being simpler technically.
and I claim its not at all simple for validators and processors...
ebastian
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Received on Fri Feb 16 2007 - 05:13:55 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 16 05:16:17 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:16:17 +0000 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45D58471.8000100@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:16:17 +0000
Conal Tuohy wrote:
> Incidentally, if option A were favoured (whether as part of option D or
> otherwise), one way to implement it might be to use distinct XML
> namespaces for the different data types.
>
I dread this, practically. namespaces are good,
but they aren't half a pain in real life, having to declare
them all up front and interact with them in editors.
in XML schemas, of course, it means another .xsd file
to carry around.
It does look elegant, but since we are not currently
proposing it for extensions, I'd steer clear if I could.
ebastian
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Received on Fri Feb 16 2007 - 05:16:31 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 16 05:18:11 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:18:11 +0000 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45D584E3.4050205@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:18:11 +0000
Conal Tuohy wrote:
>
> Would it not be simpler to make the "complex" attribute sets optional?
>
thats just what the class-based solution would do, if the non-W3C
classes were in a module
Sebastian
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Received on Fri Feb 16 2007 - 05:27:24 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Fri Feb 16 07:30:10 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:30:10 +0900 Subject: schema association (was Re: [tei-council] date attributes: summary, problems, and some suggestions) In-Reply-To: <45D583D3.10001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45D5A3D2.2000402@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:30:10 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Christian Wittern wrote:
>> How about we just give the users a spot in the header to declare which
>> one they are using ("xsd", "oxygen", "nxml", "you-name-it"), without
>> actually implementing our own? The only thing we will have to ponder
>> is if we want to maintain a registry of values for this list -- I
>> would say that might be the price we have to pay for this.
>>
>> To me, this is one of the infrastructural issues we should not lightly
>> postpone.
>>
> I think you need to go over the whole process and explain how it will
> work in real life.
>
> Two simple examples
>
> a) I declare my schema to be foo.rnc, in oxygen notation. I am
> processing using XSL.
> in XSL I cannot read .rnc files (at all easily). how do I access
> the datatype info?
>
To do that, you only have a choice between XSD and RNG files, really.
> b) I am moving hundreds of documents into eXist, and I pull out small
> fragments all
> the time. for each one, I laboriously find the header, find the way
> to referring to the
> schema, locate the schema, and look! I have 4 different schemas, so
> how now
> do I evaluate @value?
>
This is a usecase where most of our assumptions about files and headers
fall on their face, which is reaonable IMHO, since we define a format
for *interchange*. In your document repository, you are bound to want
to normalize these kinds of things into one standard form, so the
processing required here is done on the import and then your done with it.
>>
>> You will need to check for the type before blindly processing them.
> how? I'm an experienced XML processing person, and I just dread the
> thought of considering it. Plus, I want my validation!
looking at the value of substring-before(., '-') should give you what
you need to decide. And I am sure Syd will come up with a regex that
gives you a reasonable validation on the @value
>>
>> Which will put a burden on you if you suddenly discover a new type of
>> dates in your texts to go back to the schema-drawing-room called Roma
>> for another round.
> seems a reasonable price to me!
Well, maybe. It's a week argument;-)
>>
>> Except that we still have the all-in-one proposal. I might be biased
>> since I
>> work more or less daily with xml:lang attributes, but that solution
>> has the advantage
>> of being simpler technically.
> and I claim its not at all simple for validators and processors...
>
See above.
I will need to give the whole thing a bit more thought, again.
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 16 2007 - 07:30:56 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 16 07:45:06 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:45:06 +0000 Subject: schema association (was Re: [tei-council] date attributes: summary, problems, and some suggestions) In-Reply-To: <45D5A3D2.2000402@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45D5A752.9060202@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:45:06 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
>
>> b) I am moving hundreds of documents into eXist, and I pull out
>> small fragments all
>> the time. for each one, I laboriously find the header, find the
>> way to referring to the
>> schema, locate the schema, and look! I have 4 different schemas,
>> so how now
>> do I evaluate @value?
>>
>
> This is a usecase where most of our assumptions about files and
> headers fall on their face, which is reaonable IMHO, since we define a
> format for *interchange*. In your document repository, you are bound
> to want to normalize these kinds of things into one standard form, so
> the processing required here is done on the import and then your done
> with it.
hmm. that looks like a barrier to me.
>
>> how? I'm an experienced XML processing person, and I just dread the
>> thought of considering it. Plus, I want my validation!
>
> looking at the value of substring-before(., '-') should give you what
> you need to decide. And I am sure Syd will come up with a regex that
> gives you a reasonable validation on the @value
but I want my editor to validate my dates...
Sebastian
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Received on Fri Feb 16 2007 - 07:47:24 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Fri Feb 16 07:52:43 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:52:43 +0900 Subject: schema association (was Re: [tei-council] date attributes: summary, problems, and some suggestions) In-Reply-To: <45D5A752.9060202@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45D5A91B.30206@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:52:43 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Christian Wittern wrote:
>>
>>> b) I am moving hundreds of documents into eXist, and I pull out
>>> small fragments all
>>> the time. for each one, I laboriously find the header, find the
>>> way to referring to the
>>> schema, locate the schema, and look! I have 4 different schemas,
>>> so how now
>>> do I evaluate @value?
>>>
>>
>> This is a usecase where most of our assumptions about files and
>> headers fall on their face, which is reaonable IMHO, since we define a
>> format for *interchange*. In your document repository, you are bound
>> to want to normalize these kinds of things into one standard form, so
>> the processing required here is done on the import and then your done
>> with it.
> hmm. that looks like a barrier to me.
You mean the normalizing process? It seems like a fact of life to me.
>>> how? I'm an experienced XML processing person, and I just dread the
>>> thought of considering it. Plus, I want my validation!
>>
>> looking at the value of substring-before(., '-') should give you what
>> you need to decide. And I am sure Syd will come up with a regex that
>> gives you a reasonable validation on the @value
> but I want my editor to validate my dates...
Oxygen does use the datatype to validate, so that works while you are
editing -- doesnt nxml do the same thing? Of course you will have to
tell them about your schema in a language they understand, thus my
suggestion.
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 16 2007 - 07:53:32 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 16 08:33:59 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:33:59 -0500 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <17877.45767.638704.181178@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 08:33:59 -0500
> Would it not be simpler to make the "complex" attribute sets
> optional? ...
Yes, it would, and the plan you outline is quite reasonable I think.
But it's basically the equivalent of C "class level".

> Agreed. So if a user wanted to mix a Gregorian with a non-Gregorian
> calendar in the same document (which seems to me quite reasonable),
> I can see how they could do that with A and D, but how to do that
> with B and C?
With B ("datatype level") the user would
1. create a datatype for the calendar of interest, 'data.myTemporal'
2. either
a) add a new attribute to (or better still, att.datePart)
called myValue= which is declared as data.myTemporal, or
b) add a new element, , whose value= attribute is declared
as data.myTemporal
With C ("class level") the user would
1. create a class for the calendar of interest, 'att.datePart.mine',
which declares the myValue= attribute appropriately
2. either
a) add to att.datePart.mine, or
b) create , and make it a member of att.datePart.mine
In both cases step 1 involves messing with ODD, which some have
suggested we should try hard to avoid. It is more likely that
solution C step 2(a) could be done via check-box in a Roma tool than
any of the other step 2 possibilities.

> If B (datatype level), then the mixed-calendar encoder would have
> to select the "loose" data type for all dates (the "lowest common
> denominator" data type),
Right, unless they created another attribute as above. This is a bit
of a disadvantage of datatype level.

> If C (class level), then you suggested 2 options:
> C(1): classes use different attribute names, hence can be mixed (from
> the encoders' perspective this is the same as option A, just implemented
> using classes); or
> C(2): classes use the same attribute names, hence they can't be mixed
> (from the encoders' perspective this is like option B)
I think that is a reasonable summary. But keep in mind that
* "just implemented using classes" will be, for some users, a
sizable advantage;
* no one has suggested a mechanism for actually implementing C(2).

> I just meant that it was an attractive idea to have date/@value
> rather than date/@iso-value and date/@w3-value (or whatever), since
> a date, no matter how you express it, is still just a date.
Understood.

> I think that's a strange implication to take. cf @xml:lang and
> @xml:id which are inarguably (I hope?!) part of the TEI markup
> language, despite belonging to a distinct namespace. Remember, too,
> that all the other "TEI" attributes are not in fact in any
> namespace. An XML markup language is quite a different beast from
> an XML namespace. But hey, I'm not fussed about the idea ... it was
> just a suggestion.
Good points, although I would argue that xml:lang= and xml:id= are
somehow different. But as long as foo:bar= is in the TEI Guidelines
and TEI schemas, it is in a very real way part, albeit a separated
part, of the TEI language.
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 16 08:40:27 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:40:27 +0000 Subject: schema association (was Re: [tei-council] date attributes: summary, problems, and some suggestions) In-Reply-To: <45D5A91B.30206@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45D5B44B.2030908@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 13:40:27 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
>
>> but I want my editor to validate my dates...
>
> Oxygen does use the datatype to validate
but it can't, because the datatype will be .....
Sebastian
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Received on Fri Feb 16 2007 - 08:40:33 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Feb 16 16:01:41 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:01:41 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Re: schema association In-Reply-To: <45D5B44B.2030908@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17878.7093.457090.669596@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 16:01:41 -0500
I think Christian's suggestion ("just give the users a spot in the
header to declare which [mechanism for instance to point to schema]
they are using") has the right idea in the sense of "let's do
something easy and fast". However, I think it makes the situation more
complicated, not less.
The right thing to do, if we can swing it politically, is to get
OASIS to make a recommendation. If they do, it is very likely that at
least oXygen would use it, and possible that quite a few others would
follow suit.
I just spoke to Norm Walsh who agrees that the way forward is for me
to cross-post the idea with pointers to both previous suggestions
here and to rng-users. I will try to do that this weekend.
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Received on Fri Feb 16 2007 - 16:01:45 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 16 16:12:45 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:12:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Re: schema association In-Reply-To: <17878.7093.457090.669596@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45D61E4D.8060807@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:12:45 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> The right thing to do, if we can swing it politically, is to get
> OASIS to make a recommendation. If they do, it is very likely that at
> least oXygen would use it, and possible that quite a few others would
> follow suit.
>
>
that's fine, and it takes it out of our timeline.
we would participate as an interested party,
but would not have a dependency on it for P5.
I hold the OASIS vote for Oxford if you ever need it :-}

-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 16 2007 - 16:13:03 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 16 16:15:16 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:15:16 +0000 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: <17876.62761.972180.960950@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45D61EE4.1000704@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:15:16 +0000
>
> Issue: name of main dating attr (date= vs value=)
> Solution: leave 'em as is
> Vote:
>
> X I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> Issue: classes -- @dur and @value in same or different attr classes?
> Solution: split 'em into separate classes
> Vote:
>
> X I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> Issue: keep ?
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> X I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> Issue: keep precision= of
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> X I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
>
> Issue: method of expressing known day & month, unknown year, or
> specific possible dates within a range
> Suggestion: defer to P5 1.x.
> Vote:
>
> X I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution:
> ___ A
> ___ B
> X C
> ___ D
>

-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 16 2007 - 16:15:20 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Feb 16 16:16:37 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:16:37 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SF FR updates In-Reply-To: <45D4F718.7060302@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45D61F35.6090202@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 21:16:37 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
>
>
> B: this is a good idea, but needs more work: we should charter a
> workgroup to do it for P5.n
I'm not happy to proceed with this unless some people
who actually do mathematical texts have commented.
I suggest you raise it on TEI-L,
and explain that the default answer
is to defer to 5.1 if no-one speaks loudly.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 16 2007 - 16:16:50 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Fri Feb 16 18:02:01 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:02:01 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] Report of the planning committee Message-ID: <45D637E9.2010702@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:02:01 +0900
Dear Council members,
The planning committee has prepared a tracking system that we will use
to work our way towards the release of P5 1.0. You will find it ready
at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac.cgi
We have tried to identify the open issues and work items that have
been floating around, gathered the things from our previous attempts
at organizing the work and also looked at the SF feature requests,
although they are not integrated into the list at the moment.
We have basically organized the tasks ("tickets" in trac-speach) by
chapter; in addition to specific items relevant to the chapters, there
are a number of tasks that apply to all chapters, these include
* Review general structure in line with comments and write missing
prose
* Review datatype and class decisions
* Implement or reject or postpone feature requests
* Check text of prose matches specs
* Proof-read text looking for references to DTDs and P4 architecture
* Proof-read text in general
* Review elements for missing examples (Desirable)
Not all of them apply to everything, and many of the tickets can be
closed pretty quickly, so don't be scared by the number of tickets open.
In addition to these chapter specific tickets, there are some tickets
relevant to the output formatting and other programming tasks.
The trac system allows to organize the tickets by milestones, owned
tickets, etc.
Here is how we plan to manage the P5 development process:
* We will ask Council members to take ownerships of tickets.
The details of this is something we need to discuss. It might make
sense to build smaller groups within the Council, who will look over
groups of tasks like "proofreading", "publication process" etc.
Suggestions welcome.
To make changes to tickets, you will need to log in. I believe
Sebastian has set it up so that your name will work for the login at
both prompts.
* Tickets taken should be readied within 7 days of taking ownership.
If this seems impossible, please either divide up the task or disown
it in time before the desaster.
* Council members should get a SF account (if not yet done) and will
be added as developers to the SF TEi project. We expect everybody
to checkout the source using SVN (cf. P5 Howto) and commit the
changes back to SF. Council members will work on a branch in SF, it
will be the editors responsibility to port the changes over to the
main branch.
* Discussion of items and decisions will be done via the trac wiki,
which is attached to all tickets. This is not a full blown voting
system, but I hope it will still be easier to follow than the
discussions on council-l. This will document the discussion
and decision process right in place where the work is tracked as
well.
* New work items and discussions should take place in the trac
system. It is possible, similar to the SF system, to be alerted to
changes by email (Sebastian, did you set this up?)
As you will see, the timing is crucial and we will need to develop a
habit of keeping promises of commitment once made.
The one big open issue that is not yet covered in the above system is
the list of open feature requests. Lou and Syd are working through
this as we speek, but it will be important that Council members also
participate in the discussion. To do this, please go to
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?atid=644065&group_id=106328&func=browse
look at the open issues and comment. The plan is to be done with this
by 2007-03-01.
The discussion is open now, suggestions for improvement welcome. If
we can agree on this plan, lets implement it right away.
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 16 2007 - 18:02:38 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 17 05:41:46 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:41:46 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Report of the planning committee In-Reply-To: <45D637E9.2010702@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45D6DBEA.8010404@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:41:46 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
> To make changes to tickets, you will need to log in. I believe
> Sebastian has set it up so that your name will work for the login at
> both prompts.
>
if it doesn't work, contact me as soon as possible.
>
> * New work items and discussions should take place in the trac
> system. It is possible, similar to the SF system, to be alerted to
> changes by email (Sebastian, did you set this up?)
>
I am not sure it is working. I will be looking at this today.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 17 2007 - 05:41:59 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 17 08:41:30 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:41:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] trac Message-ID: <45D7060A.8050602@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:41:30 +0000
er, I have totally disabled access in every way tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk
(by accident).
I am now dependent on one my colleagues reading his/her email
and being able to poke the machine.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 17 2007 - 08:41:43 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 17 15:05:09 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:05:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] tei trac Message-ID: <45D75FF5.2000306@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:05:09 +0000
back in action now. sorry for the temporary screw-up
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 17 2007 - 15:05:24 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sat Feb 17 18:10:25 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:10:25 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] trac usage Message-ID: <45D78B61.4030500@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 23:10:25 +0000
just a note to say that after logging in, you should visit Settings,
and put in your email address. This will let trac email notifications
of ticket changes to you.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 17 2007 - 18:10:37 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sat Feb 17 19:15:36 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:15:36 -0500 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: <17876.62761.972180.960950@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <17879.39592.981034.559677@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:15:36 -0500
24 hours left, and we have votes from
- Sebastian
- Conal
- Lou (sent directly to me)
- Syd (below)

> Issue: name of main dating attr (date= vs value=)
> Solution: leave 'em as is
> Vote:
> ___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution

> Issue: classes -- @dur and @value in same or different attr classes?
> Solution: split 'em into separate classes
> Vote:
> ___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution

> Issue: keep ?
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
> ___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution

> Issue: keep precision= of
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
> ___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
But I'm happy to be swayed by use-cases that require it.

> Issue: method of expressing known day & month, unknown year, or
> specific possible dates within a range
> Suggestion: defer to P5 1.x.
> Vote:
> ___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
I really don't like this, but see no other choice.

> Issue: constraint of date-regularization attributes: W3C, ISO, other
> Suggestions:
> A ("attribute level"): duplicate current attrs for each different system
> B ("datatype level"): create duplicate datatype for each different
> system
> C ("class level"): create classes for each set of attrs from
> different systems; possibly implement with a new
> module so attrs are added when that module is
> loaded (like att.metrical gets added to
> att.divLike when verse is loaded)
> D ("all-in-one"): differentiate system by value's syntax
>
> Vote:
>
> I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution:
> ___ A
> ___ B
> _X_ C
> _X_ D
>
> I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution:
> _X_ A
> ___ B
> ___ C
> ___ D
Currently I rank solutions as C = best, D = pretty good, B =
accceptle, A = a bit nuts.
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From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Sat Feb 17 19:30:43 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:30:43 +0900 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: <17876.62761.972180.960950@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45D79E33.2010304@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:30:43 +0900
Well, after some more consideration, here is my vote.

Syd Bauman wrote:
> Issue: name of main dating attr (date= vs value=)
> Solution: leave 'em as is
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
> Issue: classes -- @dur and @value in same or different attr classes?
> Solution: split 'em into separate classes
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
> Issue: keep ?
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
> Issue: keep precision= of
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
> Issue: method of expressing known day & month, unknown year, or
> specific possible dates within a range
> Suggestion: defer to P5 1.x.
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
> Issue: constraint of date-regularization attributes: W3C, ISO, other
> Suggestions:
> A ("attribute level"): duplicate current attrs for each different system
> B ("datatype level"): create duplicate datatype for each different
> system
> C ("class level"): create classes for each set of attrs from
> different systems; possibly implement with a new
> module so attrs are added when that module is
> loaded (like att.metrical gets added to
> att.divLike when verse is loaded)
> D ("all-in-one"): differentiate system by value's syntax
>
> Vote:
>
> I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution:
> _X_ C
(Sebastian has somehow convinced me that D is not really feasible...)
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 17 2007 - 19:31:25 EST

From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sun Feb 18 07:19:13 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:19:13 +0000 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: <17879.39592.981034.559677@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45D84441.1050104@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:19:13 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> 24 hours left, and we have votes from
> - Sebastian
> - Conal
> - Lou (sent directly to me)
> - Syd (below)
>
>
>
Well, you're doing slightly better than me. On my consultation
concerning I got precisely three responses : two voting for
option B (seek more input) and one for option C (I will provide more
input by 1 March).
As C doesn't exclude the possibility of B, I suspect that B is the most
appropriate course of action. However, there is still an awful lot of
silence on the subject from council members -- some of whom may want to
vote for A (this is a daft idea which should be stopped now). So I will
wait a further 48 hours before doing anything.

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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 18 07:46:44 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:46:44 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] facsimile odd Message-ID: <45D84AB4.9040800@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:46:44 +0000
according to the minutes, we were going to have a full-devevloped
ODD for linking text to pages images by the end of January:


finish specifications in ODD
2007-01-27


finish prose in ODD
2007-01-31



read facsimile ODD, test schemata
2007-02-08

Any sign?
I added a ticket to trac about it.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 18 2007 - 07:47:02 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 18 07:58:12 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:58:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] conformance chapter overdue? Message-ID: <45D84D64.5060106@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:58:12 +0000
I can't find an action about this from the last minutes, but
I think I recall a fairly tight deadline for a draft being agreed to?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 18 2007 - 07:58:15 EST
From James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sun Feb 18 08:21:02 2007 From: James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:21:02 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] conformance chapter overdue? In-Reply-To: <45D84D64.5060106@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45D852BE.5030003@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 13:21:02 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> I can't find an action about this from the last minutes, but
> I think I recall a fairly tight deadline for a draft being agreed to?
Yes, this is entirely my fault. I was supposed to create a draft for people to
argue more about, and I've not finished it yet. I will definitely have time to
work on it more this week.
-james
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 18 2007 - 08:21:09 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sun Feb 18 09:21:23 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:21:23 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SF FRs update Message-ID: <45D860E3.4080601@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:21:23 +0000
I've now closed all the SF tickets assigned to me bar two or three. Most
of them are fairly trivial, though the following may be of particular
interest:
1022539: make global
1551357: loosen content model of
The following 2 are still open:

1007370 ] (see earlier note to Council)
1308688 A new floating embedded text element

(I think I now have a proposal for resolving this one, about which I
will post to TEI-L early next week)
The following are now marked PENDING
1531700 Element for supplied letters within expansion (see earlier note
to TEI-L)
1549974 and 1524523 : placed on agenda for Vilnius meeting next week
1550229: Waiting for input from requestor

I've also had a quick glance through the one's on Syd's pile and made
comments where I have anything to say.
Oh, and in a slightly devious move I assigned two particularly nasty
ones to Sebastian.
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From dporter at uky.edu Sun Feb 18 12:08:29 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:08:29 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] facsimile odd In-Reply-To: <45D84AB4.9040800@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <96f3df640702180908v42486cb5s71464fee18abe47a@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 09:08:29 -0800
I expect the hold up is on my end - I am supposed to be supplying
sample texts to Conal so he can test the ODD (which is probably
finished). I will get the testing materials to him this afternoon.
Sorry for the hold up...
Dot
On 2/18/07, Sebastian Rahtz ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> according to the minutes, we were going to have a full-devevloped
> ODD for linking text to pages images by the end of January:
>
>
>
> finish specifications in ODD
> 2007-01-27
>
>
> finish prose in ODD
> 2007-01-31
>
>
>
> read facsimile ODD, test schemata
> 2007-02-08
>
>
> Any sign?
>
> I added a ticket to trac about it.
>
> --
> Sebastian Rahtz
>
> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
>
> OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>

-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 18 2007 - 12:08:32 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 18 12:14:20 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:14:20 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] actions from tcm28 in trac Message-ID: <45D8896C.5020603@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:14:20 +0000
I have transferred, sometimes baldly, the actions from the last
council telco into tickets in trac. I hope some of you are getting emails
about it. Can I stress again that you all need to access the trac
system, go to settings, and put in your email address. Then ticket
notifications will reach you.
I think we agreed, btw, that physical bibliography is unlikely to make
it into 1.0?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 18 2007 - 12:14:41 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 18 12:37:01 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:37:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] header element to reference schema Message-ID: <45D88EBD.9040305@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:37:01 +0000
We have an outstanding feature
request to extend the TEI header to allow a pointer in the TEI
to the schema (in the loosest sense) against which this document is valid.
(http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1650195&group_id=106328&atid=644065)
The requestor boldly begs " this should be able to cope with different
namespaces... i.e. I should be
able to reference the relaxNG schema for elements starting with rng: the
tei: schema I'm using, the svg: schema I'm using, etc. I should be able
just to point to an ODD, an RNG, etc. or embed my ODD
etc."
My inclination is to say that ISO NVDL is supposed to cope with this,
and that we
could simply document as a technique how to embed NVDL in its namespace
in the header (much
as http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#tei-modularization discusses how to
add ITS
to the TEI).
However, YMMV. So, _another_ little survey, please. Answers by next weekend;
if there is no convincing consensus, the default answer will apply.
Regarding the addition of a header element (or PI or whatever) to the TEI
scheme to point to a scheme, choose one of the following:

A. I don't understand the issues and am content to let others decide
B. I think it is really important and the TEI must deal with it by
itself for 1.0
C. It is important, but best left to the industry, and we should simply
encourage OASIS to pick it up
D. It can be dealt with using NVDL and we should document that somewhere
E. We should leave it until after 1.0, and set up a working party then
F. It's not an issue, people should use whatever scheme they like
Since I was handed the ticket to resolve, I choose "C" as the default answer
by which I will deal with the ticket if Council does not give a direction.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 18 2007 - 12:37:18 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 18 13:01:21 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:01:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] recording application information in the teiHeader Message-ID: <45D89471.4070809@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:01:21 +0000
cf my post to TEI-L
If I get no serious responses, I incline towards saying
to Martin "thanks but no thanks".
If there _are_ positive responses, I will propose that we put
it straight in the header, and not bother with an
extra module. In that case, I will take it as an
action to finish drafting the new elements with Martin
for review by Berlin.
Obviously, this depends on y'll approving that
plan of campaign. I will take silence as assent :-}
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 18 2007 - 13:01:33 EST
From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Sun Feb 18 13:22:39 2007 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:22:39 +0000 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: <17876.62761.972180.960950@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45D8996F.5020901@kcl.ac.uk>
From: Arianna Ciula
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 18:22:39 +0000
> Issue: name of main dating attr (date= vs value=)
> Solution: leave 'em as is
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
> Issue: classes -- @dur and @value in same or different attr classes?
> Solution: split 'em into separate classes
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
>
> Issue: keep ?
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
>
> Issue: keep precision= of
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
>
> Issue: method of expressing known day & month, unknown year, or
> specific possible dates within a range
> Suggestion: defer to P5 1.x.
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
>
> I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution:
> ___ A
> ___ B
> _X_ C
> ___ D
I could have looked at this more, but after the discussion on the list,
I think I am convinced it's the best solution.
Arianna
Syd Bauman wrote:
> OK. I realize dating attributes can make your head spin -- heck, I
> got so dizzy I had to take breaks while writing that last posting.
> But given that we are in pedal-to-the-metal mode to get moving on P5,
> I would like to avoid waiting for 2 weeks to see if anyone has
> comments on it, only to find they don't.
>
> Christian, Daniel, and Sebastian are working on getting a working
> project management system up for P5, which will hopefully include
> (among other things) a voting system for Council to use to express
> its wishes. But that's at least days away, so in the meantime
> Christian has authorized me to use the following far cruder system.
>
> I really want each and every one of us to reply to this posting
> within 72 hours having checked off one box for each of the following.
>
>
> Issue: name of main dating attr (date= vs value=)
> Solution: leave 'em as is
> Vote:
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
>
> ___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
> ahead
>
> ___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
> but expect to contribute soon
>
>
> Issue: classes -- @dur and @value in same or different attr classes?
> Solution: split 'em into separate classes
> Vote:
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
>
> ___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
> ahead
>
> ___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
> but expect to contribute soon
>
>
> Issue: keep ?
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
>
> ___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
> ahead
>
> ___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
> but expect to contribute soon
>
>
> Issue: keep precision= of
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
>
> ___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
> ahead
>
> ___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
> but expect to contribute soon
>
>
> Issue: method of expressing known day & month, unknown year, or
> specific possible dates within a range
> Suggestion: defer to P5 1.x.
> Vote:
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
>
> ___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
> ahead
>
> ___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
> but expect to contribute soon
>
>
> Issue: constraint of date-regularization attributes: W3C, ISO, other
> Suggestions:
> A ("attribute level"): duplicate current attrs for each different system
> B ("datatype level"): create duplicate datatype for each different
> system
> C ("class level"): create classes for each set of attrs from
> different systems; possibly implement with a new
> module so attrs are added when that module is
> loaded (like att.metrical gets added to
> att.divLike when verse is loaded)
> D ("all-in-one"): differentiate system by value's syntax
>
> Vote:
>
> I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution:
> ___ A
> ___ B
> ___ C
> ___ D
>
> I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution:
> ___ A
> ___ B
> ___ C
> ___ D
>
> ___ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
> ahead with whatever
>
> ___ I have not yet had time to consider the issue sufficiently,
> but expect to contribute soon
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
-- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London Strand London WC2R 2LS (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 18 2007 - 13:22:50 EST
From James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sun Feb 18 14:51:49 2007 From: James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 19:51:49 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] date attributes: summary, problems, and some suggestions In-Reply-To: <200702151603.l1FG3V2N007860@perseus.services.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45D8AE55.1060503@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 19:51:49 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
>>> - If we keep [1] we may wish to reconsider its class
>>> membership, as value= is a bit silly on . It needs only
>>> dur= from att.datePart, making two cases that benefit from
>>> splitting att.datePart. (See , above.)
>
>> kill distance
>
> Is anyone in favor of keeping ? Is anyone besides me, Lou,
> and Sebastian in favor of deleting it?
As I stated on 2007-02-05, I am in favour of keeping distance because it is
useful for spatial distance. I don't mind if temporal distance is removed from
it, but as an element it should be considered completely separately from the
discussion of date/times.
-james
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 18 2007 - 14:52:03 EST
From dporter at uky.edu Sun Feb 18 14:55:16 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 11:55:16 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] date attributes: summary, problems, and some suggestions In-Reply-To: <45D8AE55.1060503@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <96f3df640702181155t42a5440ag4d62262abb77d71f@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 11:55:16 -0800
I agree with James that should be kept for spacial
difference and not considered only in a discussion of date/time.
Dot
On 2/18/07, James Cummings
oxford.ac.uk> wrote:
> Syd Bauman wrote:
> >>> - If we keep [1] we may wish to reconsider its class
> >>> membership, as value= is a bit silly on . It needs only
> >>> dur= from att.datePart, making two cases that benefit from
> >>> splitting att.datePart. (See , above.)
> >
> >> kill distance
> >
> > Is anyone in favor of keeping ? Is anyone besides me, Lou,
> > and Sebastian in favor of deleting it?
>
> As I stated on 2007-02-05, I am in favour of keeping distance because it is
> useful for spatial distance. I don't mind if temporal distance is removed from
> it, but as an element it should be considered completely separately from the
> discussion of date/times.
>
> -james
>
> --
> Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford
> James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>

-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 18 2007 - 14:55:20 EST

From James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sun Feb 18 15:01:34 2007 From: James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:01:34 +0000 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: <17876.62761.972180.960950@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45D8B09E.4020900@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 20:01:34 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> Issue: name of main dating attr (date= vs value=)
> Solution: leave 'em as is
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
> Issue: classes -- @dur and @value in same or different attr classes?
> Solution: split 'em into separate classes
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> Issue: keep ?
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
> _X_ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
I think this conversation is misplaced in a conversation otherwise solely about
date/time since distance is used spatially as well as temporally.
>
> Issue: keep precision= of
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> Issue: method of expressing known day & month, unknown year, or
> specific possible dates within a range
> Suggestion: defer to P5 1.x.
> Vote:
>
> _X_ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
Though I never had my comments in my message from 2007-02-05 explained viz.
whether W3C gMonthDay datatype allows --25-12 for christmas.
>
> Issue: constraint of date-regularization attributes: W3C, ISO, other
> Suggestions:
> Vote:
>
> I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution:
> _X_ A
> _x_ D
I'd vote for A, with possibly a secondary vote for D, but I find both solutions
less than elegant.
> I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution:
> _X_ B
> _X_ C
-James
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 18 2007 - 15:01:48 EST
From dporter at uky.edu Sun Feb 18 15:21:07 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:21:07 -0800 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: <17876.62761.972180.960950@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <96f3df640702181221u327d3e5dud100066d1ed18903@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 12:21:07 -0800
On 2/15/07, Syd Bauman edu> wrote:
> Issue: name of main dating attr (date= vs value=)
> Solution: leave 'em as is
> Vote:
>
> _X__ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
> Issue: classes -- @dur and @value in same or different attr classes?
> Solution: split 'em into separate classes
> Vote:
>
> _X__ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> ___ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
>
> Issue: keep ?
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> _X__ I have considered issue, and disagree with proposed solution
>
As James has already mentioned, is also used for spacial distance.
>
> Issue: keep precision= of
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> _X__ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
> Issue: method of expressing known day & month, unknown year, or
> specific possible dates within a range
> Suggestion: defer to P5 1.x.
> Vote:
>
> _X__ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> Issue: constraint of date-regularization attributes: W3C, ISO, other
> Suggestions:
> A ("attribute level"): duplicate current attrs for each different system
> B ("datatype level"): create duplicate datatype for each different
> system
> C ("class level"): create classes for each set of attrs from
> different systems; possibly implement with a new
> module so attrs are added when that module is
> loaded (like att.metrical gets added to
> att.divLike when verse is loaded)
> D ("all-in-one"): differentiate system by value's syntax
>
> Vote:
>
> I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution:
> ___ A
> ___ B
> _x__ C
> ___ D

Dot
-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 18 2007 - 15:21:11 EST

From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Sun Feb 18 18:12:08 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:12:08 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] recording application information in the teiHeader In-Reply-To: <45D89471.4070809@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45D8DD48.4070403@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:12:08 +0000
1. I certainly dont think it needs a new module
2. As a tool developer I can report that xaira certainly needs a place
in the header to store quite a lot of data: much more than this proposal
would permit (and with a more complex structure) in fact. Xaira
addresses the need by defining its own additional "XairaDesc" element
(if I were doing this properly it wd be in its own namespace) and adding
same to the encodingDesc, which works just fine. In an earlier version,
xaira also updated the revisionDesc everytime it ran: however this
rapidly became so annoying I took it out again.
So on balance,
3. I am unconvinced that this proposal is sufficiently general or
powerful as yet
Lou

Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> cf my post to TEI-L
>
> If I get no serious responses, I incline towards saying
> to Martin "thanks but no thanks".
>
> If there _are_ positive responses, I will propose that we put
> it straight in the header, and not bother with an
> extra module. In that case, I will take it as an
> action to finish drafting the new elements with Martin
> for review by Berlin.
>
> Obviously, this depends on y'll approving that
> plan of campaign. I will take silence as assent :-}
>
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Sun Feb 18 18:46:09 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:46:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] recording application information in the teiHeader In-Reply-To: <45D8DD48.4070403@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45D8E541.50206@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:46:09 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
>
> 2. As a tool developer I can report that xaira certainly needs a place
> in the header to store quite a lot of data: much more than this
> proposal would permit (and with a more complex structure) in fact.
> Xaira addresses the need by defining its own additional "XairaDesc"
> element (if I were doing this properly it wd be in its own namespace)
> and adding same to the encodingDesc, which works just fine. In an
> earlier version, xaira also updated the revisionDesc everytime it ran:
> however this rapidly became so annoying I took it out again.
>
OK, having also immediately heard from Peter Boot and Dot, the case is
probably there for it to
exist. The choice is between: a simple extensible mechanism which needs
careful definition
to let Lou use it; and a technique recommendation which says "define
your own vocabulary
in your own namespace".
This business of "when to namespace and when not to namespace" keeps
coming back
to haunt us...
I'll let this stew a bit on TEI-L, and then make you a proposal.
Incidentally, perhaps I am over-influenced by my work for the W3C, but I
like
the separation there between the standard, and the "best practices"
document to go with it. I suppose it is heresy to say that we could do
with that too?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 18 2007 - 18:46:22 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sun Feb 18 22:58:01 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:58:01 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Re: schema association In-Reply-To: <45D61E4D.8060807@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17881.8265.966631.335794@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 22:58:01 -0500
> that's fine, and it takes it out of our timeline. we would
> participate as an interested party, but would not have a dependency
> on it for P5.
This is not what I had in mind at all. I think we should try, very
hard, to get this done such that it is included in P5 1.0.

> I hold the OASIS vote for Oxford if you ever need it :-}
Excellent!
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From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Sun Feb 18 23:47:08 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:47:08 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] time to really allow instance to name schema? Message-ID: <17881.11212.530001.31343@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 23:47:08 -0500
Dept: re-opening a can of worms :-)
Two straw-man proposals have been put forward to two separate groups
for a PI that would permit an XML document instance to name a schema
or schemas against which it is (supposed to be) valid.
In April 2005 I wrote a document that at the time was circulated only
among the TEI Council members:
http://www.tei-c.org/Drafts/edw89.xml?style=printable
In July 2005 MURATA Makoto wrote a document that at the time was
circulated to the new Relax NG user's mailing list:
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~eb2m-mrt/hidden/spec.html
In both cases the documents are just proposals of their authors, not
position papers of the organizations they sometimes represent. In
both cases the syntax of a PI that an XML document may use to point
to a schema is described. In both cases the intent is that the PI
itself is optional and repeatable, and that while processors may want
to make use of the information, they are not required to.
This issue fostered some discussion on the rng-users list back in
summer 2005, with some objecting to the idea of a schema-pointing PI
(Tommie Usdin I recall was among them).
TEI P5 needs to be finished up soon, and it would be a good idea, I
think, to have this particular issue settled well before it is
published. Because TEI is so customizable, it is quite helpful for
the user if an instance can point to its schema. In general, the TEI
would be as happy or happier if someone else (read OASIS) came up
with the specification for this process, so that TEI P5 could refer
to it. My instinct is that a PI is the right place for this
information, but I'm not even sure that is a given.
I don't think there is really that much work to be done in this area
to come up with a unified proposal. Does any one else think it is
worth any effort? Is this something that comes under the jurisdiction
of the OASIS Relax NG Technical Committee?
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From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Mon Feb 19 03:33:09 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:33:09 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] time to really allow instance to name schema? In-Reply-To: <17881.11212.530001.31343@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45D960C5.50007@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:33:09 +0900
Syd Bauman wrote:
> Dept: re-opening a can of worms :-)
Ah, right. I had completely forgotten about these.
> TEI P5 needs to be finished up soon, and it would be a good idea, I
> think, to have this particular issue settled well before it is
> published. Because TEI is so customizable, it is quite helpful for
> the user if an instance can point to its schema. In general, the TEI
> would be as happy or happier if someone else (read OASIS) came up
> with the specification for this process, so that TEI P5 could refer
> to it. My instinct is that a PI is the right place for this
> information, but I'm not even sure that is a given.
>
> I don't think there is really that much work to be done in this area
> to come up with a unified proposal. Does any one else think it is
> worth any effort? Is this something that comes under the jurisdiction
> of the OASIS Relax NG Technical Committee?
I am all in favor for this to go to a committee outside the TEI to be
considered, with the TEI providing input and also a community with a
commitment to use the spec, once ready. The only concern is that this
(a) should not take steam out of our effort to concentrate on the
immediate issues for P5 and (b) that it becomes decoupled from P5, so
that we are not being held up if this gets stranded somewhere.
Christian
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From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Feb 19 06:47:03 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:47:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] time to really allow instance to name schema? In-Reply-To: <17881.11212.530001.31343@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45D98E37.7090700@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 11:47:03 +0000
According to the edw89 draft the proposed mechanism
* should be optional, ignorable, and over-ridable
* should not be TEI-specific
If the first is a serious requirement, I cannot see any point in the
proposal at all. Its only possible outcome might be a suggestion that
specifying a schema this way is one amongst the many things you might do
with a PI (but since you might also do the same thing another way, or
other things the same way, why bother to make the suggestion?)
If the second is a serious requirement, then clearly there is littlethe
TEI can do to achieve it!
Given that the proposal has already been discussed and failed to
persuade one expert forum (the rng users group), why resurrect it now?
For the record, I think this is a waste of time. The most I think we
should do in TEI P5 is to add a few sentences to SG (introductory
chapter on XML) explaining how a schema might be associated with an
instance, possibly giving the rationale for not doing it. And I'm not
even sure about that.

Lou

Syd Bauman wrote:
> Dept: re-opening a can of worms :-)
>
> Two straw-man proposals have been put forward to two separate groups
> for a PI that would permit an XML document instance to name a schema
> or schemas against which it is (supposed to be) valid.
>
> In April 2005 I wrote a document that at the time was circulated only
> among the TEI Council members:
> http://www.tei-c.org/Drafts/edw89.xml?style=printable
>
> In July 2005 MURATA Makoto wrote a document that at the time was
> circulated to the new Relax NG user's mailing list:
> http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~eb2m-mrt/hidden/spec.html
>
> In both cases the documents are just proposals of their authors, not
> position papers of the organizations they sometimes represent. In
> both cases the syntax of a PI that an XML document may use to point
> to a schema is described. In both cases the intent is that the PI
> itself is optional and repeatable, and that while processors may want
> to make use of the information, they are not required to.
>
> This issue fostered some discussion on the rng-users list back in
> summer 2005, with some objecting to the idea of a schema-pointing PI
> (Tommie Usdin I recall was among them).
>
> TEI P5 needs to be finished up soon, and it would be a good idea, I
> think, to have this particular issue settled well before it is
> published. Because TEI is so customizable, it is quite helpful for
> the user if an instance can point to its schema. In general, the TEI
> would be as happy or happier if someone else (read OASIS) came up
> with the specification for this process, so that TEI P5 could refer
> to it. My instinct is that a PI is the right place for this
> information, but I'm not even sure that is a given.
>
> I don't think there is really that much work to be done in this area
> to come up with a unified proposal. Does any one else think it is
> worth any effort? Is this something that comes under the jurisdiction
> of the OASIS Relax NG Technical Committee?
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
>
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Received on Mon Feb 19 2007 - 06:47:16 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 19 08:19:41 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:19:41 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Re: [rng-users] time to really allow instance to name schema? In-Reply-To: <45D96342.5000007@kosek.cz> Message-ID: <45D9A3ED.8090308@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:19:41 +0000
Jirka Kosek wrote:
>
> Since 2005 there is NVDL which can associate schema with namespace
> indirectly. But this doesn't solve issue of having several different
> vocabularies (read schemas) in the same namespaces -- for example full
> TEI vs. TEI Lite, full DocBook vs. Simplified DocBook, XHTML 1.0 vs.
> XHTML 1.1 vs. XHTML Print.
>
you could embed a stanza of NVDL inside the document?
Sebastian
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From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 19 08:21:57 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:21:57 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Re: schema association In-Reply-To: <17881.8265.966631.335794@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45D9A475.3080203@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:21:57 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
>> that's fine, and it takes it out of our timeline. we would
>> participate as an interested party, but would not have a dependency
>> on it for P5.
>>
>
> This is not what I had in mind at all. I think we should try, very
> hard, to get this done such that it is included in P5 1.0.
>
I hope that my request yesterday for the council to
vote on this subject will deal with the issue one way
or another? Note that I have only had one response.....
Sebastian
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Received on Mon Feb 19 2007 - 08:23:44 EST
From James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Feb 19 09:13:54 2007 From: James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:13:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] header element to reference schema In-Reply-To: <45D88EBD.9040305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45D9B0A2.3020105@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:13:54 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> We have an outstanding feature
> request to extend the TEI header to allow a pointer in the TEI
> to the schema (in the loosest sense) against which this document is valid.
> (http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1650195&group_id=106328&atid=644065)
>
>
> The requestor boldly begs " this should be able to cope with different
> namespaces... i.e. I should be
> able to reference the relaxNG schema for elements starting with rng: the
> tei: schema I'm using, the svg: schema I'm using, etc. I should be able
> just to point to an ODD, an RNG, etc. or embed my ODD
> etc."
I didn't think I was being that bold. I just felt that if we implemented a
solution one should be able to embed the schema(s) or point to them. I.e. point
to my ODD, embed its RNG, and point to some other publicly maintained schema
(say the SVG schema). Basically I'm just looking for a point at which to do
this in the header, probably under encodingDesc.
> My inclination is to say that ISO NVDL is supposed to cope with this,
I don't know NVDL well enough, but a quick glance at it seems like it might do
what we want.

> Regarding the addition of a header element (or PI or whatever) to the TEI
> scheme to point to a scheme, choose one of the following:
>
> B. I think it is really important and the TEI must deal with it by
> itself for 1.0
> D. It can be dealt with using NVDL and we should document that somewhere
I don't see these two as mutually exclusive. I think it is important, and TEI
should discuss it and document at least one recommendation on how to do it. I
don't view 'deal with it by itself' as excluding using existing standards. It
may be that NVDL should be the recommendation we choose. The only things I
could find about it that bothered me were that in all the examples in the
'annexes' of the ISO publication, it uses Relax NG Annotations for its
documentation...so that means declaring yet another namespace...
I'm assuming that NVDL has no problem if it points to a schema language or
similar that whatever is processing it doesn't understand. I.e. if I point to my
ODD, then oxygen won't die, just say it doesn't know about that kind of thing.
Similarly, this only partly answers the original spec. This gives us a way to
point to external schemas, but no recommendation on a manner to embed the same
in your instance document. (i.e. Say I want to stick my ODDs, automatically, in
an instance document so that the two are inseparable.)
-James
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Feb 19 2007 - 09:13:58 EST

From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Mon Feb 19 10:00:28 2007 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:00:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] header element to reference schema In-Reply-To: <45D88EBD.9040305@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45D9BB8C.4020809@kcl.ac.uk>
From: Arianna Ciula
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 15:00:28 +0000
I think it would highly desirable to have the possibility to point to a
publicly maintained schema in the TeiHeader for 1.0 and, I agree with
James, the encodingDesc element could be the right place.
However, I don't know enough about NVDL to vote with all awareness or to
know how to achieve this in collaboration with the industry.
Arianna
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> We have an outstanding feature
> request to extend the TEI header to allow a pointer in the TEI
> to the schema (in the loosest sense) against which this document is valid.
> (http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1650195&group_id=106328&atid=644065)
>
>
> The requestor boldly begs " this should be able to cope with different
> namespaces... i.e. I should be
> able to reference the relaxNG schema for elements starting with rng: the
> tei: schema I'm using, the svg: schema I'm using, etc. I should be able
> just to point to an ODD, an RNG, etc. or embed my ODD
> etc."
>
> My inclination is to say that ISO NVDL is supposed to cope with this,
> and that we
> could simply document as a technique how to embed NVDL in its namespace
> in the header (much
> as http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-i18n-bp/#tei-modularization discusses how to
> add ITS
> to the TEI).
>
> However, YMMV. So, _another_ little survey, please. Answers by next
> weekend;
> if there is no convincing consensus, the default answer will apply.
>
> Regarding the addition of a header element (or PI or whatever) to the TEI
> scheme to point to a scheme, choose one of the following:
>
> A. I don't understand the issues and am content to let others decide
> B. I think it is really important and the TEI must deal with it by
> itself for 1.0
> C. It is important, but best left to the industry, and we should simply
> encourage OASIS to pick it up
> D. It can be dealt with using NVDL and we should document that somewhere
> E. We should leave it until after 1.0, and set up a working party then
> F. It's not an issue, people should use whatever scheme they like
>
> Since I was handed the ticket to resolve, I choose "C" as the default
> answer
> by which I will deal with the ticket if Council does not give a direction.
>
> --
>
> Sebastian Rahtz
> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
>
> OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
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> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
-- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London Strand London WC2R 2LS (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Feb 19 2007 - 10:04:25 EST
From tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no Mon Feb 19 12:25:49 2007 From: tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no (Tone Merete Bruvik) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:25:49 +0100 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: <17876.62761.972180.960950@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <892343a4888f26993d00424071b68e50@aksis.uib.no>
From: Tone Merete Bruvik
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 18:25:49 +0100
Sorry to be a bit late, but here are my vote:
P? 16. feb. 2007 kl. 01.04 skrev Syd Bauman:
> Issue: name of main dating attr (date= vs value=)
> Solution: leave 'em as is
> Vote:
>
> _X__ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> Issue: classes -- @dur and @value in same or different attr classes?
> Solution: split 'em into separate classes
> Vote:
>
> _X__ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
> Issue: keep ?
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> _X__ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
> Issue: keep precision= of
> Solution: nuke it
> Vote:
>
> _X__ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
>
>
> Issue: method of expressing known day & month, unknown year, or
> specific possible dates within a range
> Suggestion: defer to P5 1.x.
> Vote:
>
> _X__ I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution
> Issue: constraint of date-regularization attributes: W3C, ISO, other
> Suggestions:
> A ("attribute level"): duplicate current attrs for each different
> system
> B ("datatype level"): create duplicate datatype for each different
> system
> C ("class level"): create classes for each set of attrs from
> different systems; possibly implement with a new
> module so attrs are added when that module is
> loaded (like att.metrical gets added to
> att.divLike when verse is loaded)
> D ("all-in-one"): differentiate system by value's syntax
>
> Vote:
>
> I have considered issue, and agree with proposed solution:
> ___ A
> ___ B
> _X__ C
> ___ D
>
> _X_ It does not matter to me which solution is chosen, so go
> ahead with whatever
>
Tone Merete Bruvik
Lyshovden 104
5148 Fyllingsdalen
55161123
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Received on Mon Feb 19 2007 - 12:31:17 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 19 12:58:16 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:58:16 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Re: [rng-users] time to really allow instance to name schema? In-Reply-To: <45D9A899.30500@kosek.cz> Message-ID: <45D9E538.1050300@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 17:58:16 +0000
Jirka Kosek wrote:
>> you could embed a stanza of NVDL inside the document?
>>
>
> But this would modify "information content" of document itself
it seems to me that this is what the proponents of the
idea want to do, they genuinely want to enhance
the document.
> - you will have to ignore NVDL elements during XSLT processing
>
Yes, of course; I don't see that as any big deal; just like I
ignore most metadata elements during daily processing.
Sometimes I want them. Sometimes I also want to consult
the schema, so I will read the NVDL.
And of course it did not stop XSD from adding
their horrible attribute....
The days when you got the "real" content of a document
by stripping out all tags is surely past?
> - how would you implement validation in a streaming mode if you must
> lookahead NVDL snippet first
>
doesn't the same apply to a PI? it has to be inside the root
element, so you have to open the document. and it applies
to the XSD element.
> I think that for situations where schema can't be specified indirectly
> using NVDL or similar technology using PI is the best
> solution -- easy to use, easy to implement, no side-effect in existing
> toolchains.
>
but it does require a new ad hoc agreement, and one which cannot
be checked against a schema, or contain any useful documentation.
I agree it would work (if tool vendors wanted), but I don't think
its as much fun as it could.
Anyway, I tend to agree with Lou that I want different
schemas at different times, and that I'd rather not be
dictated to by the document...
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Feb 19 2007 - 12:58:29 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Feb 19 17:54:42 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:54:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Re: [rng-users] time to really allow instance to name schema? In-Reply-To: <45DA22A5.6030202@kosek.cz> Message-ID: <45DA2AB2.5040606@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:54:42 +0000
Jirka Kosek wrote:
> I think that we are not agreeing on what is "information content" of
> document. I include elements/attributes/text nodes under this term,
> while I take PIs and comments as something which doesn't convey primary
> information of document, just some stuff which can be used by some
> users/tools as a suplemental information when document is processed in a
> particular way.
>
I probably do agree with you. But I am still prepared to use
elements for metadata; after all, you and I both work on a
W3C scheme (ITS) which is happy to store meta information
about processing information in elements the header....
> Nope, PIs can be before root element, for example
>
>
>

> ...
>

>
ah, OK. true. But you still get at that PI with an XML parser,
don't you? or do you just read the first few hundred bytes
and hope you find it?
> OK, so then you will not use
> this PI. But there are still people who need this functionality.
>
>
If OASIS or W3C want to start a workgroup to standardize
a PI, that's fine, of course. I can't believe the W3C will,
though, because they only recognize the existence of
XSD, which already has its truly horrible attribute.
So how does one start an OASIS activity to look at this?

-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Feb 19 2007 - 17:54:54 EST

From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Feb 20 16:18:53 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:18:53 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] recording application information in the teiHeader In-Reply-To: <45D8E541.50206@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1172006333.11553.70.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:18:53 -0700
On Sun, 2007-18-02 at 23:46 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Lou Burnard wrote:
> >
> > 2. As a tool developer I can report that xaira certainly needs a place
> > in the header to store quite a lot of data: much more than this
> > proposal would permit (and with a more complex structure) in fact.
> > Xaira addresses the need by defining its own additional "XairaDesc"
> > element (if I were doing this properly it wd be in its own namespace)
> > and adding same to the encodingDesc, which works just fine. In an
> > earlier version, xaira also updated the revisionDesc everytime it ran:
> > however this rapidly became so annoying I took it out again.
> >
> OK, having also immediately heard from Peter Boot and Dot, the case is
> probably there for it to
> exist. The choice is between: a simple extensible mechanism which needs
> careful definition
> to let Lou use it; and a technique recommendation which says "define
> your own vocabulary
> in your own namespace".
>
> This business of "when to namespace and when not to namespace" keeps
> coming back
> to haunt us...
>
> I'll let this stew a bit on TEI-L, and then make you a proposal.
>
> Incidentally, perhaps I am over-influenced by my work for the W3C, but I
> like
> the separation there between the standard, and the "best practices"
> document to go with it. I suppose it is heresy to say that we could do
> with that too?
Doesn't that keep coming back as well? I think this is probably a post
partum desideratum--though obviously we think about best practice as we
discuss the final spec all the time. I.e. not quite 1.1 but post 1.0.
Perhaps a separate project?
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 20 2007 - 16:15:03 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Feb 20 16:21:51 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:21:51 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] recording application information in the teiHeader In-Reply-To: <45D8DD48.4070403@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1172006511.11553.74.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:21:51 -0700
We've been coming up on this idea of multiple namespaces a lot as well.
Was James C not dealing with this question as part of the conformance
proposals?
I'm happy with Sebastian's proposal for a method of working, but I'm
wondering if what we aren't talking about here is not something that
should be cast off as a separate namespace question--each tool will
presumably have a number of different things it wants to say about
itself and it seems to me to be a mugs game to predict them.
-dan
On Sun, 2007-18-02 at 23:12 +0000, Lou Burnard wrote:
> 1. I certainly dont think it needs a new module
>
> 2. As a tool developer I can report that xaira certainly needs a place
> in the header to store quite a lot of data: much more than this proposal
> would permit (and with a more complex structure) in fact. Xaira
> addresses the need by defining its own additional "XairaDesc" element
> (if I were doing this properly it wd be in its own namespace) and adding
> same to the encodingDesc, which works just fine. In an earlier version,
> xaira also updated the revisionDesc everytime it ran: however this
> rapidly became so annoying I took it out again.
>
> So on balance,
>
> 3. I am unconvinced that this proposal is sufficiently general or
> powerful as yet
>
> Lou
>
>
> Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> > cf my post to TEI-L
> >
> > If I get no serious responses, I incline towards saying
> > to Martin "thanks but no thanks".
> >
> > If there _are_ positive responses, I will propose that we put
> > it straight in the header, and not bother with an
> > extra module. In that case, I will take it as an
> > action to finish drafting the new elements with Martin
> > for review by Berlin.
> >
> > Obviously, this depends on y'll approving that
> > plan of campaign. I will take silence as assent :-}
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
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-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 20 2007 - 16:18:02 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 20 16:24:42 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:24:42 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] recording application information in the teiHeader In-Reply-To: <1172006333.11553.70.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45DB671A.6020209@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:24:42 +0000
Dan O'Donnell wrote:
> Doesn't that keep coming back as well? I think this is probably a post
> partum desideratum--though obviously we think about best practice as we
> discuss the final spec all the time. I.e. not quite 1.1 but post 1.0.
> Perhaps a separate project?
>
>
I can see the counter argument, that if we know something
we should put it in the Guidelines; but still I can imagine
the "Big Book Of TEI Fun" as a community project where
people document how they really proceed. As you say,
a different project.

-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 20 2007 - 16:24:55 EST

From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Feb 20 16:29:50 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:29:50 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] actions from tcm28 in trac In-Reply-To: <45D8896C.5020603@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1172006990.11553.79.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:29:50 -0700
On Sun, 2007-18-02 at 17:14 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> I have transferred, sometimes baldly, the actions from the last
> council telco into tickets in trac. I hope some of you are getting emails
> about it. Can I stress again that you all need to access the trac
> system, go to settings, and put in your email address. Then ticket
> notifications will reach you.
>
> I think we agreed, btw, that physical bibliography is unlikely to make
> it into 1.0?
This is what I remember. Unfortunately.
-dan
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 20 2007 - 16:26:00 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 20 16:35:03 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:35:03 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] recording application information in the teiHeader In-Reply-To: <1172006511.11553.74.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45DB6987.1040502@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:35:03 +0000
Dan O'Donnell wrote:
> We've been coming up on this idea of multiple namespaces a lot as well.
> Was James C not dealing with this question as part of the conformance
> proposals?
>
> I'm happy with Sebastian's proposal for a method of working, but I'm
> wondering if what we aren't talking about here is not something that
> should be cast off as a separate namespace question--each tool will
> presumably have a number of different things it wants to say about
> itself and it seems to me to be a mugs game to predict them.
>
Yes, that's probably the path of least resistance,
simply to document how to add another namespaced
element to the appropriate point in the header,
to give the technique a feeling of encouragement
and approval, without codifying the details.
If I was an RDF nut, I'd point out that you can likely
do everything with that.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 20 2007 - 16:35:16 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Tue Feb 20 17:16:12 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:16:12 -0700 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: <17877.5371.694544.449968@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <1172009772.11553.99.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:16:12 -0700
On Thu, 2007-15-02 at 21:20 -0500, Syd Bauman wrote:
On this issue I must confess, I like D better than anything presented;
and think the namespace idea is sooper. We already use namespaced
attributes, of course, so could we do it?
-dan

> > That last one is tricky.
>
> Indeed it is.
>
>
> > I'm not sure, Syd and Sebastian, why you have characterised the
> > "attribute-level" solution (A) as NOT making the easy things easy,
> > and "just too confusing for day to day use". Could you clarify
> > where the confusion might lie please? It seems to me that we could
> > have this year and that this is easy. So
> > I must be missing something.
>
> With the attribute-level solution every time any user (who hasn't
> removed attributes in her customization) inserts a element,
> her XML-aware editor would present here with a slew of possible
> attributes:
> value=
> value.iso=
> value.usr=
> notBefore=
> notBefore.iso=
> notBefore.usr=
> notAfter=
> notAfter.iso=
> notAfter.usr=
> from=
> from.iso=
> from.usr=
> to=
> to.iso=
> to.usr=
> dur=
> dur.iso=
> dur.usr=
> not to mention the non-date-specific attributes. No simple check-box
> style customization could change this. (Although, as I'm fond of
> pointing out, it isn't really that hard without the check-box
> simplicity.) For the vast majority of users, 2/3 of the above
> attributes would never be used, and would just be in the way.
>
>
> > I think B and C are weaker (if I understand them correctly) in that
> > they would prohibit mixing calendars in a document (at least, with
> > the same element, so that date/@value would have to have a
> > consistent type throughout a document). Is that a correct
> > understanding?
>
> Off the top of my head I think that is correct if the user is using
> the "simple format" date attributes, regardless of which option we
> choose. That's because the simple W3C format is definitionally
> Gregorian, and arguably proleptic Gregorian. Things are a little
> better with ISO 8601, which is explicitly Gregorian or proleptic
> Gregorian, and arguably the syntax could be used for others.
>
> I'm of a mind that, regardless of system, we should define value= and
> iso-value= as (proleptic) Gregorian. User-defined values could be of
> whatever calendar the user desired. The *content* is in whatever
> calendar is specified by calendar=.
>
>
> > In some ways I prefer D because it implies that the attributes have
> > particular semantics which are in a sense independent of the
> > particular calendrical "syntax" used.
>
> I'm sorry, I think I'm too tired (or too stupid :-) to understand
> this.
>
>
> > Incidentally, ... use distinct XML namespaces for the different
> > data types. ... e.g. ... St David's
> > day or ... St David's day
>
> Really interesting idea (that I never thought of) that yields a
> very nice syntactic result. But I don't think the implications --
> that these attributes somehow belong to some other markup language
> than TEI -- are acceptable.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
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-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 20 2007 - 17:12:23 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 20 17:42:48 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:42:48 +0000 Subject: [tei–council] what to do with dating attributes –– VOTE! In-Reply-To: <1172009772.11553.99.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45DB7968.7050408@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:42:48 +0000
Dan O'Donnell wrote:
> On this issue I must confess, I like D better than anything presented;
> and think the namespace idea is sooper. We already use namespaced
> attributes, of course, so could we do it?
>
Technically, yes. But if they were in the core, we'd
have a choice of too many attributes; if it was in a
loadable module, what's the advantage over another
name, really?

-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 20 2007 - 17:43:04 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Tue Feb 20 20:10:48 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:10:48 +0900 Subject: [tei-council] actions from tcm28 in trac In-Reply-To: <1172006990.11553.79.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45DB9C18.5050308@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:10:48 +0900
Dan O'Donnell wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-18-02 at 17:14 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>> I think we agreed, btw, that physical bibliography is unlikely to make
>> it into 1.0?
>
> This is what I remember. Unfortunately.
>
Right. And I guess it will fall on me to inform Murray and the group
about this state of affairs.
Christian
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From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Feb 27 09:34:19 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 14:34:19 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] P5 internal structure Message-ID: <45E4416B.70500@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 14:34:19 +0000
Sebastian and I were actioned to determine what to do about the
formatting problems in generating HTML from the newly vanilla-div
structured P5 whilst in Lithuania.
We discussed the following options:
0. Top level divs are numbered I to VIII; second level divs are numbered
1 to 39. what is currently the first chapter of part II (numbered 4)
remains numbered 4.
1. Combine top and subsequent level divs: what is currently the first
chapter of part II (numbered 4) becomes II.1
2. Forget about the part numbers: what is currently the first chapter of
part II (numbered 4) remains numbered 4.
3. Special case the first chapter in each part so that it does something
magical to produce an extra blank page, possibly with an extra heading
or something.
We observed that:
(a) the current structure is in need of overhaul -- some of the chapters
are very small and others very large; some closely related material
(e.g. CH and WD) is widely separated; the distinction between "core" and
"additional" tagsets is defunct.
(b) the chapters that define modules should probably be separated from
those which don't, both by numbering and form of title. Some of the
current introductory material could move into the ; some of the
current "technical material" could move into the .
We concluded:
We will begin by adopting option 2 above. This is by far the simplest
solution if we want to get out reasonable looking and accessible HTML in
the near future. It also leaves room for us to group and regroup
chapters without major upheaval.
The downside is that those who have got accustomed to thinking of
chapter CH as chapter 4 will have to get reprogrammed. But they have
quite a lot of reprogramming to endure anyway.
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Received on Tue Feb 27 2007 - 09:34:24 EST
From laurent.romary at loria.fr Tue Feb 27 09:57:06 2007 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:57:06 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] P5 internal structure In-Reply-To: <45E4416B.70500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID:
From: Laurent Romary
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:57:06 +0100
Since I missed the preceding vote (vacances...), I anticipate on this
one and fully support Lou's proposal.
Laurent
Le 27 f?vr. 07 ? 15:34, Lou Burnard a ?crit :
> Sebastian and I were actioned to determine what to do about the
> formatting problems in generating HTML from the newly vanilla-div
> structured P5 whilst in Lithuania.
>
> We discussed the following options:
>
> 0. Top level divs are numbered I to VIII; second level divs are
> numbered 1 to 39. what is currently the first chapter of part II
> (numbered 4) remains numbered 4.
>
> 1. Combine top and subsequent level divs: what is currently the
> first chapter of part II (numbered 4) becomes II.1
>
> 2. Forget about the part numbers: what is currently the first
> chapter of part II (numbered 4) remains numbered 4.
>
> 3. Special case the first chapter in each part so that it does
> something magical to produce an extra blank page, possibly with an
> extra heading or something.
>
> We observed that:
>
> (a) the current structure is in need of overhaul -- some of the
> chapters are very small and others very large; some closely related
> material (e.g. CH and WD) is widely separated; the distinction
> between "core" and "additional" tagsets is defunct.
>
> (b) the chapters that define modules should probably be separated
> from those which don't, both by numbering and form of title. Some
> of the current introductory material could move into the ;
> some of the current "technical material" could move into the .
>
> We concluded:
>
> We will begin by adopting option 2 above. This is by far the
> simplest solution if we want to get out reasonable looking and
> accessible HTML in the near future. It also leaves room for us to
> group and regroup chapters without major upheaval.
>
> The downside is that those who have got accustomed to thinking of
> chapter CH as chapter 4 will have to get reprogrammed. But they
> have quite a lot of reprogramming to endure anyway.
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
_______________________________________________
tei-council mailing list
tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
Received on Tue Feb 27 2007 - 09:58:22 EST
From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Feb 27 12:39:56 2007 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:39:56 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] P5 internal structure In-Reply-To: <45E4416B.70500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45E46CEC.6000203@kcl.ac.uk>
From: Arianna Ciula
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:39:56 +0000
It is a pity to loose the old chapters references, but if the overall
HTML structure can benefit and be improved the modifications are more
than welcome.
Arianna
Lou Burnard wrote:
> Sebastian and I were actioned to determine what to do about the
> formatting problems in generating HTML from the newly vanilla-div
> structured P5 whilst in Lithuania.
>
> We discussed the following options:
>
> 0. Top level divs are numbered I to VIII; second level divs are numbered
> 1 to 39. what is currently the first chapter of part II (numbered 4)
> remains numbered 4.
>
> 1. Combine top and subsequent level divs: what is currently the first
> chapter of part II (numbered 4) becomes II.1
>
> 2. Forget about the part numbers: what is currently the first chapter of
> part II (numbered 4) remains numbered 4.
>
> 3. Special case the first chapter in each part so that it does something
> magical to produce an extra blank page, possibly with an extra heading
> or something.
>
> We observed that:
>
> (a) the current structure is in need of overhaul -- some of the chapters
> are very small and others very large; some closely related material
> (e.g. CH and WD) is widely separated; the distinction between "core" and
> "additional" tagsets is defunct.
>
> (b) the chapters that define modules should probably be separated from
> those which don't, both by numbering and form of title. Some of the
> current introductory material could move into the ; some of the
> current "technical material" could move into the .
>
> We concluded:
>
> We will begin by adopting option 2 above. This is by far the simplest
> solution if we want to get out reasonable looking and accessible HTML in
> the near future. It also leaves room for us to group and regroup
> chapters without major upheaval.
>
> The downside is that those who have got accustomed to thinking of
> chapter CH as chapter 4 will have to get reprogrammed. But they have
> quite a lot of reprogramming to endure anyway.
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
-- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London Strand London WC2R 2LS (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 27 2007 - 12:47:30 EST
From dporter at uky.edu Tue Feb 27 12:58:19 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:58:19 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] P5 internal structure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <96f3df640702270958g76b888a3y57f6563b3fd940e@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:58:19 -0500
I support this proposal as well.
Dot
On 2/27/07, Laurent Romary fr> wrote:
> Since I missed the preceding vote (vacances...), I anticipate on this
> one and fully support Lou's proposal.
> Laurent
>
> Le 27 f?vr. 07 ? 15:34, Lou Burnard a ?crit :
>
> > Sebastian and I were actioned to determine what to do about the
> > formatting problems in generating HTML from the newly vanilla-div
> > structured P5 whilst in Lithuania.
> >
> > We discussed the following options:
> >
> > 0. Top level divs are numbered I to VIII; second level divs are
> > numbered 1 to 39. what is currently the first chapter of part II
> > (numbered 4) remains numbered 4.
> >
> > 1. Combine top and subsequent level divs: what is currently the
> > first chapter of part II (numbered 4) becomes II.1
> >
> > 2. Forget about the part numbers: what is currently the first
> > chapter of part II (numbered 4) remains numbered 4.
> >
> > 3. Special case the first chapter in each part so that it does
> > something magical to produce an extra blank page, possibly with an
> > extra heading or something.
> >
> > We observed that:
> >
> > (a) the current structure is in need of overhaul -- some of the
> > chapters are very small and others very large; some closely related
> > material (e.g. CH and WD) is widely separated; the distinction
> > between "core" and "additional" tagsets is defunct.
> >
> > (b) the chapters that define modules should probably be separated
> > from those which don't, both by numbering and form of title. Some
> > of the current introductory material could move into the ;
> > some of the current "technical material" could move into the .
> >
> > We concluded:
> >
> > We will begin by adopting option 2 above. This is by far the
> > simplest solution if we want to get out reasonable looking and
> > accessible HTML in the near future. It also leaves room for us to
> > group and regroup chapters without major upheaval.
> >
> > The downside is that those who have got accustomed to thinking of
> > chapter CH as chapter 4 will have to get reprogrammed. But they
> > have quite a lot of reprogramming to endure anyway.
> > _______________________________________________
> > tei-council mailing list
> > tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>

-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 27 2007 - 12:58:23 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Feb 27 15:39:47 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:39:47 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] a chance in a million for a lucky Council member Message-ID: <45E49713.9040501@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:39:47 +0000
Who would like to step up to the plate
and pick one of the plum jobs from the list?
The task is nothing less than to design the
layout of the Guidelines. The first requirement
is to do the web version, then look at print
if it is going well.
The input is XHTML coming an XSLT
transform of P5; you can change that XSLT too,
but the first task is probably just to
take over the CSS and make better-looking pages.
Obviously whoever takes this on has to be prepared
to defend the results to a sceptical Council,
so a certain amount of hard-heartedness is required.
You also have to be prepared to work through
the nitty grit of what information is in an ODD
and how best to present it.
Only one caveat - the result cannot just be a lovely
HTML page, with an instruction saying "go make
it look like that". Finished product required.
Go on, someone on the Council wants this task.
Step forward and claim it!
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 27 2007 - 15:39:54 EST
From dporter at uky.edu Tue Feb 27 16:47:08 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:47:08 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] a chance in a million for a lucky Council member In-Reply-To: <45E49713.9040501@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <96f3df640702271347od8d0b67k73bbf757355e2d7f@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:47:08 -0500
Hi Council,
James and I volunteer for this task. We feel that we'll be more
effective working together than either of us would be separately (that
and James still need to finish up an initial draft of Conformance).
Dot
On 2/27/07, Sebastian Rahtz ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> Who would like to step up to the plate
> and pick one of the plum jobs from the list?
>
> The task is nothing less than to design the
> layout of the Guidelines. The first requirement
> is to do the web version, then look at print
> if it is going well.
>
> The input is XHTML coming an XSLT
> transform of P5; you can change that XSLT too,
> but the first task is probably just to
> take over the CSS and make better-looking pages.
>
> Obviously whoever takes this on has to be prepared
> to defend the results to a sceptical Council,
> so a certain amount of hard-heartedness is required.
> You also have to be prepared to work through
> the nitty grit of what information is in an ODD
> and how best to present it.
>
> Only one caveat - the result cannot just be a lovely
> HTML page, with an instruction saying "go make
> it look like that". Finished product required.
>
> Go on, someone on the Council wants this task.
> Step forward and claim it!
>
> --
> Sebastian Rahtz
>
> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
>
> OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>

-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 27 2007 - 16:47:12 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Tue Feb 27 19:30:55 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:30:55 +0800 Subject: [tei-council] P5 internal structure In-Reply-To: <45E4416B.70500@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45E4CD3F.9050305@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:30:55 +0800
Lou Burnard wrote:
> Sebastian and I were actioned to determine what to do about the
> formatting problems in generating HTML from the newly vanilla-div
> structured P5 whilst in Lithuania.
>
> We discussed the following options:
>
> 0. Top level divs are numbered I to VIII; second level divs are numbered
> 1 to 39. what is currently the first chapter of part II (numbered 4)
> remains numbered 4.
>
> 1. Combine top and subsequent level divs: what is currently the first
> chapter of part II (numbered 4) becomes II.1
>
> 2. Forget about the part numbers: what is currently the first chapter of
> part II (numbered 4) remains numbered 4.
If I understand this correctly, this just means that we get a sequential
numbering of chapters? This seems to be exactly what was up as P5 HTML
up to now. On http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ for
example, there are no part numbers, at least not at some visible place,
i.e. in the left sidebar.
This seems to be the least intrusive option to me, so you have my
support for it.
> We concluded:
>
> We will begin by adopting option 2 above. This is by far the simplest
> solution if we want to get out reasonable looking and accessible HTML in
> the near future. It also leaves room for us to group and regroup
> chapters without major upheaval.
>
> The downside is that those who have got accustomed to thinking of
> chapter CH as chapter 4 will have to get reprogrammed. But they have
> quite a lot of reprogramming to endure anyway.
This does not seems to be a conclusion of Option 2, but rather of the
further action you proposed. Since that is not spelled out here, I take
it that you will present your plans on this in more details later.

Christian
_______________________________________________
tei-council mailing list
tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
Received on Tue Feb 27 2007 - 19:31:49 EST

From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Feb 28 01:48:58 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:48:58 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] P5 internal structure In-Reply-To: <45E46CEC.6000203@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1172645339.11179.28.camel@localhost>
From: Daniel O'Donnell
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:48:58 -0700
I'm in favour of option 2 as well, but agree with Christian that in
principle it doesn't seem to me to involve massive changes from the
current output as it is visible to the user unless we start messing with
the order of the chapters as well... which seems to me to be a different
issue.
The immediate question for the milestone is the part vs./+ chapter
division, not the order of the chapters IMO. Once we know the level
issue, the HTML/PDF output teams can start work on the stylesheets and
design, regardless of the editorial order (which seems to me to be an
editorial issue).
-d
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 17:39 +0000, Arianna Ciula wrote:
> It is a pity to loose the old chapters references, but if the overall
> HTML structure can benefit and be improved the modifications are more
> than welcome.
>
> Arianna
>
> Lou Burnard wrote:
> > Sebastian and I were actioned to determine what to do about the
> > formatting problems in generating HTML from the newly vanilla-div
> > structured P5 whilst in Lithuania.
> >
> > We discussed the following options:
> >
> > 0. Top level divs are numbered I to VIII; second level divs are numbered
> > 1 to 39. what is currently the first chapter of part II (numbered 4)
> > remains numbered 4.
> >
> > 1. Combine top and subsequent level divs: what is currently the first
> > chapter of part II (numbered 4) becomes II.1
> >
> > 2. Forget about the part numbers: what is currently the first chapter of
> > part II (numbered 4) remains numbered 4.
> >
> > 3. Special case the first chapter in each part so that it does something
> > magical to produce an extra blank page, possibly with an extra heading
> > or something.
> >
> > We observed that:
> >
> > (a) the current structure is in need of overhaul -- some of the chapters
> > are very small and others very large; some closely related material
> > (e.g. CH and WD) is widely separated; the distinction between "core" and
> > "additional" tagsets is defunct.
> >
> > (b) the chapters that define modules should probably be separated from
> > those which don't, both by numbering and form of title. Some of the
> > current introductory material could move into the ; some of the
> > current "technical material" could move into the .
> >
> > We concluded:
> >
> > We will begin by adopting option 2 above. This is by far the simplest
> > solution if we want to get out reasonable looking and accessible HTML in
> > the near future. It also leaves room for us to group and regroup
> > chapters without major upheaval.
> >
> > The downside is that those who have got accustomed to thinking of
> > chapter CH as chapter 4 will have to get reprogrammed. But they have
> > quite a lot of reprogramming to endure anyway.
> > _______________________________________________
> > tei-council mailing list
> > tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Associate Professor and Chair, Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Canada Vox: +1 403 329-2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Feb 28 2007 - 01:49:08 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Feb 28 01:54:41 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Daniel O'Donnell) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:54:41 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] a chance in a million for a lucky Council member In-Reply-To: <96f3df640702271347od8d0b67k73bbf757355e2d7f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1172645681.11179.35.camel@localhost>
From: Daniel O'Donnell
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:54:41 -0700
I wonder if this might not need more than just two people: there are a
number of issues here: information design, layout, output formats (HTML
+/or PDF), stylesheet design, etc., etc., etc.
It seems to me that this might profitably be seen as a group of people
working under a lead who take complete ownership of the problem and
deliver by the milestone.
There are other groups/deadlines coming. You can see them at the Trac
site: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac.cgi/roadmap
If Dot and James want to lead this that would be superb. But perhaps we
could put together a larger workgroup?
-dan
On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 16:47 -0500, Dot Porter wrote:
> Hi Council,
>
> James and I volunteer for this task. We feel that we'll be more
> effective working together than either of us would be separately (that
> and James still need to finish up an initial draft of Conformance).
>
> Dot
>
> On 2/27/07, Sebastian Rahtz ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> > Who would like to step up to the plate
> > and pick one of the plum jobs from the list?
> >
> > The task is nothing less than to design the
> > layout of the Guidelines. The first requirement
> > is to do the web version, then look at print
> > if it is going well.
> >
> > The input is XHTML coming an XSLT
> > transform of P5; you can change that XSLT too,
> > but the first task is probably just to
> > take over the CSS and make better-looking pages.
> >
> > Obviously whoever takes this on has to be prepared
> > to defend the results to a sceptical Council,
> > so a certain amount of hard-heartedness is required.
> > You also have to be prepared to work through
> > the nitty grit of what information is in an ODD
> > and how best to present it.
> >
> > Only one caveat - the result cannot just be a lovely
> > HTML page, with an instruction saying "go make
> > it look like that". Finished product required.
> >
> > Go on, someone on the Council wants this task.
> > Step forward and claim it!
> >
> > --
> > Sebastian Rahtz
> >
> > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
> > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
> >
> > OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> > http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > tei-council mailing list
> > tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
> >
>
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Director, Digital Medievalist Project http://www.digitalmedievalist.org/ Associate Professor and Chair, Department of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Canada Vox: +1 403 329-2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Feb 28 2007 - 01:54:45 EST
From James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Feb 28 03:01:01 2007 From: James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:01:01 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] a chance in a million for a lucky Council member In-Reply-To: <1172645681.11179.35.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <45E536BD.1050801@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:01:01 +0000
Daniel O'Donnell wrote:
> I wonder if this might not need more than just two people: there are a
> number of issues here: information design, layout, output formats (HTML
> +/or PDF), stylesheet design, etc., etc., etc.
>
> It seems to me that this might profitably be seen as a group of people
> working under a lead who take complete ownership of the problem and
> deliver by the milestone.
>
> There are other groups/deadlines coming. You can see them at the Trac
> site: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac.cgi/roadmap
>
> If Dot and James want to lead this that would be superb. But perhaps we
> could put together a larger workgroup?
I think that this already is the case in some ways. The council as a whole is
the larger workgroup. If Dot and I work in a focused fashion to produce
something and then report back to Council, for opinions, etc., then revise what
we've produced with those suggestions in mind, then that has the same effect in
many ways. Rather than splintering the task amongst a larger number of people,
I wanted to keep it fairly tightly-knit. As you say there are lots of other
milestones that need working on, and if Dot and I take away this one, then some
of the other council members can work on the more important ones! But of course
we're happy to do this however council feels, or let someone else do it if there
are other volunteers, etc.
-James

>
> -dan
> On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 16:47 -0500, Dot Porter wrote:
>> Hi Council,
>>
>> James and I volunteer for this task. We feel that we'll be more
>> effective working together than either of us would be separately (that
>> and James still need to finish up an initial draft of Conformance).
>>
>> Dot
>>
>> On 2/27/07, Sebastian Rahtz ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> Who would like to step up to the plate
>>> and pick one of the plum jobs from the list?
>>>
>>> The task is nothing less than to design the
>>> layout of the Guidelines. The first requirement
>>> is to do the web version, then look at print
>>> if it is going well.
>>>
>>> The input is XHTML coming an XSLT
>>> transform of P5; you can change that XSLT too,
>>> but the first task is probably just to
>>> take over the CSS and make better-looking pages.
>>>
>>> Obviously whoever takes this on has to be prepared
>>> to defend the results to a sceptical Council,
>>> so a certain amount of hard-heartedness is required.
>>> You also have to be prepared to work through
>>> the nitty grit of what information is in an ODD
>>> and how best to present it.
>>>
>>> Only one caveat - the result cannot just be a lovely
>>> HTML page, with an instruction saying "go make
>>> it look like that". Finished product required.
>>>
>>> Go on, someone on the Council wants this task.
>>> Step forward and claim it!
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sebastian Rahtz
>>>
>>> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
>>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
>>>
>>> OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
>>> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> tei-council mailing list
>>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>>>
>>

-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Feb 28 2007 - 03:01:08 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 28 06:02:58 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:02:58 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] P5 internal structure In-Reply-To: <1172645339.11179.28.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <45E56162.30901@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:02:58 +0000
Daniel O'Donnell wrote:
> I'm in favour of option 2 as well, but agree with Christian that in
> principle it doesn't seem to me to involve massive changes from the
> current output as it is visible to the user unless we start messing with
> the order of the chapters as well... which seems to me to be a different
> issue.
>
I think it is almost inconceivable that the list of chapters
will remain the same as it is today, and very likely the order
will change too. It only takes 5 minutes staring at
the current TOC to see it can be bettered....
> The immediate question for the milestone is the part vs./+ chapter
> division
I have not yet heard a dissenting voice which wants
to keep the "Part" structure.
anyway, whatever happens, the chapter is the main unit,
for design purposes.
Sebastian
_______________________________________________
tei-council mailing list
tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
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Received on Wed Feb 28 2007 - 06:03:03 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Feb 28 06:04:19 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:04:19 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] P5 internal structure In-Reply-To: <45E4CD3F.9050305@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45E561B3.60407@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 11:04:19 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
>
> This does not seems to be a conclusion of Option 2, but rather of the
> further action you proposed. Since that is not spelled out here, I
> take it that you will present your plans on this in more details later.
since we have already deleted chapters, it is foregone conclusion that
chapter numbering will not be the same as P4...
Sebasstian
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Received on Wed Feb 28 2007 - 06:04:23 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Feb 28 14:45:46 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:45:46 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] a chance in a million for a lucky Council member In-Reply-To: <45E536BD.1050801@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1172691946.12701.27.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 12:45:46 -0700
Sounds fine. If I've learned anything it's not to get between tasks and
volunteers ;)
-dan
On Wed, 2007-28-02 at 08:01 +0000, James Cummings wrote:
> Daniel O'Donnell wrote:
> > I wonder if this might not need more than just two people: there are a
> > number of issues here: information design, layout, output formats (HTML
> > +/or PDF), stylesheet design, etc., etc., etc.
> >
> > It seems to me that this might profitably be seen as a group of people
> > working under a lead who take complete ownership of the problem and
> > deliver by the milestone.
> >
> > There are other groups/deadlines coming. You can see them at the Trac
> > site: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac.cgi/roadmap
> >
> > If Dot and James want to lead this that would be superb. But perhaps we
> > could put together a larger workgroup?
>
> I think that this already is the case in some ways. The council as a whole is
> the larger workgroup. If Dot and I work in a focused fashion to produce
> something and then report back to Council, for opinions, etc., then revise what
> we've produced with those suggestions in mind, then that has the same effect in
> many ways. Rather than splintering the task amongst a larger number of people,
> I wanted to keep it fairly tightly-knit. As you say there are lots of other
> milestones that need working on, and if Dot and I take away this one, then some
> of the other council members can work on the more important ones! But of course
> we're happy to do this however council feels, or let someone else do it if there
> are other volunteers, etc.
>
> -James
>
>
> >
> > -dan
> > On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 16:47 -0500, Dot Porter wrote:
> >> Hi Council,
> >>
> >> James and I volunteer for this task. We feel that we'll be more
> >> effective working together than either of us would be separately (that
> >> and James still need to finish up an initial draft of Conformance).
> >>
> >> Dot
> >>
> >> On 2/27/07, Sebastian Rahtz ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>> Who would like to step up to the plate
> >>> and pick one of the plum jobs from the list?
> >>>
> >>> The task is nothing less than to design the
> >>> layout of the Guidelines. The first requirement
> >>> is to do the web version, then look at print
> >>> if it is going well.
> >>>
> >>> The input is XHTML coming an XSLT
> >>> transform of P5; you can change that XSLT too,
> >>> but the first task is probably just to
> >>> take over the CSS and make better-looking pages.
> >>>
> >>> Obviously whoever takes this on has to be prepared
> >>> to defend the results to a sceptical Council,
> >>> so a certain amount of hard-heartedness is required.
> >>> You also have to be prepared to work through
> >>> the nitty grit of what information is in an ODD
> >>> and how best to present it.
> >>>
> >>> Only one caveat - the result cannot just be a lovely
> >>> HTML page, with an instruction saying "go make
> >>> it look like that". Finished product required.
> >>>
> >>> Go on, someone on the Council wants this task.
> >>> Step forward and claim it!
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Sebastian Rahtz
> >>>
> >>> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
> >>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
> >>>
> >>> OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> >>> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> tei-council mailing list
> >>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> >>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
> >>>
> >>
>
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Feb 28 2007 - 14:41:06 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Wed Feb 28 19:41:18 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:41:18 +0800 Subject: [tei-council] a chance in a million for a lucky Council member In-Reply-To: <45E536BD.1050801@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45E6212E.5090907@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:41:18 +0800
James Cummings wrote:
> Daniel O'Donnell wrote:
>> I wonder if this might not need more than just two people: there are a
>> number of issues here: information design, layout, output formats (HTML
>> +/or PDF), stylesheet design, etc., etc., etc.
>>
>> It seems to me that this might profitably be seen as a group of people
>> working under a lead who take complete ownership of the problem and
>> deliver by the milestone.
>>
>> There are other groups/deadlines coming. You can see them at the Trac
>> site: http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac.cgi/roadmap
>>
>> If Dot and James want to lead this that would be superb. But perhaps we
>> could put together a larger workgroup?
>
> I think that this already is the case in some ways. The council as a
> whole is the larger workgroup. If Dot and I work in a focused fashion
> to produce something and then report back to Council, for opinions,
> etc., then revise what we've produced with those suggestions in mind,
> then that has the same effect in many ways. Rather than splintering the
> task amongst a larger number of people, I wanted to keep it fairly
> tightly-knit. As you say there are lots of other milestones that need
> working on, and if Dot and I take away this one, then some of the other
> council members can work on the more important ones! But of course
> we're happy to do this however council feels, or let someone else do it
> if there are other volunteers, etc.
Well said.
Now, the next step would be to go to trac
http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac.cgi/ and take ownership of the relevant
tickets.
At this point,
"Milestone Decide on final output format (especially for reference
section)" looks like the right one to me, but you might check that with
Sebastian. If you have a more detailed plan of the issues involved,
and the way you want to proceed, we would appreciate if you also tell
trac about it and let us see it.
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Feb 28 2007 - 19:41:33 EST

From James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Thu Mar 1 04:18:48 2007 From: James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 09:18:48 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] a chance in a million for a lucky Council member In-Reply-To: <45E6212E.5090907@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45E69A78.3060209@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 09:18:48 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
> Now, the next step would be to go to trac
> http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac.cgi/ and take ownership of the relevant
> tickets.
> At this point,
> "Milestone Decide on final output format (especially for reference
> section)" looks like the right one to me, but you might check that with
> Sebastian. If you have a more detailed plan of the issues involved,
> and the way you want to proceed, we would appreciate if you also tell
> trac about it and let us see it.
I've reassigned that one to me for now. No detailed plan of attack yet.
-James
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Mar 01 2007 - 04:22:08 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 1 05:59:16 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 10:59:16 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] release 0.6 looming Message-ID: <45E6B204.8040008@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 10:59:16 +0000
I'd like to make a new release of P5 in a couple of weeks.
If anyone feels this would be a bad idea, or is desparate
to finish something off to get it in now, please speak now.
Sebastian
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Received on Thu Mar 01 2007 - 05:59:18 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 1 07:30:32 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 12:30:32 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] work for March Message-ID: <45E6C768.1080400@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 12:30:32 +0000
Happy St David's Day.
Looking at the plan of work scheduled for March, it goes as follows:
* (end of tasks relating to feature requests, 12 hours to go)
* design output format (JC and DP now on case)
* review datatype and class decisions
* proofread text looking for DTD and P4 language
the latter two involve taking each chapter, looking
for problems and ideally dealing with them. In most
cases it will just a matter of someone signing off a
chapter as having a clean bill of health. If something
comes out which cannot be dealt with in (say)
an hours work rewriting a paragraph, or making
a simple decision about a datatype, then it should
be broken out to a new task which can assigned its
own deadline and so on.
I think its "adopt a chapter" day again.
Sebastian
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Received on Thu Mar 01 2007 - 07:30:36 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Mar 1 15:51:57 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 15:51:57 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] data.multipleEnumerated Message-ID: <17895.15597.17871.698362@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 15:51:57 -0500
Sebastian --
Is there any chance of implementing a repeatable enumeration?

This would be a change to ODD such that there is some mechanism
(e.g., a 'repeatable="yes"' attribute on ) to define an
enumeration of possible attribute values which could be repeated,
i.e. instead of boiling down to
( "list" | "of" | "valItem" | "idents" )
would boil down to
list { ( "list" | "of" | "valItem" | "idents")+ }
This would permit one or more of the listed values to be specified
(with repetition possible), but still flag as invalid any value not
in the list. Thus, given the above declarations the values
"idents"
"valItem idents"
"of list of idents"
are valid, but
"valitem"
"List of"
"1724"
are not.
This mechanism would be very useful in the declaration of several
attributes. E.g., type= of , which currently has a fragment
of Relax NG in the , could be re-written declaratively:





Although TEI would not use it for vanilla P5, one could well imagine
users creating ODDs for their projects taking advantage of this
mechanism for their local constraint of rend=:





italics
boldface
small caps
larger than surrounding text
smaller than surrounding text


Council --
Is there any reason to avoid doing so?
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Received on Thu Mar 01 2007 - 15:52:21 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 1 16:14:22 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 21:14:22 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] data.multipleEnumerated In-Reply-To: <17895.15597.17871.698362@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45E7422E.1080304@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 21:14:22 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> Is there any chance of implementing a repeatable enumeration?
>
from my point of view, no real problem (though surely repeatable='true' not
repeatable='yes'?)
> would boil down to
>
> list { ( "list" | "of" | "valItem" | "idents")+ }
>
though I note that this _isnt_ the implementation
you use in the example.
Have you experimented to see what happens
when you run trang on such an RNG to make an XSD?
Does XSD support the idea?
Why don't you send me a self-contained .odd
using the feature, and we can see what happens.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Mar 01 2007 - 16:14:32 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Mar 1 16:41:33 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 16:41:33 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] data.multipleEnumerated In-Reply-To: <45E7422E.1080304@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17895.18573.501993.355439@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 16:41:33 -0500
> from my point of view, no real problem (though surely repeatable='true' not
> repeatable='yes'?)
Sure. I don't care. Whatever data.truthValue uses.

> > would boil down to
> > list { ( "list" | "of" | "valItem" | "idents")+ }
> though I note that this _isnt_ the implementation
> you use in the example.
It isn't? (I thought the example did not provide an
implementation, just a fragment of ODD; the current element
specification does exactly this with a fragment of Relax NG, I
thought.)

> Have you experimented to see what happens when you run trang on
> such an RNG to make an XSD? Does XSD support the idea?
No, and I don't know.

> Why don't you send me a self-contained .odd
> using the feature, and we can see what happens.
Just to double-check that I understand what you mean -- you want an
ODD file that pretends repeatable="true" is available?
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Received on Thu Mar 01 2007 - 16:41:37 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Thu Mar 1 17:00:24 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 22:00:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] data.multipleEnumerated In-Reply-To: <17895.18573.501993.355439@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45E74CF8.80709@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2007 22:00:24 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
>> though I note that this _isnt_ the implementation
>> you use in the example.
>>
>
> It isn't? (I thought the example did not provide an
> implementation, just a fragment of ODD; the current element
> specification does exactly this with a fragment of Relax NG, I
> thought.)
>
I may be misunderstanding. You want me to generate
RELAXNG comparable to that in ? I vaguely
thought you want a relaxng-specific lists of lists.
> Just to double-check that I understand what you mean -- you want an
> ODD file that pretends repeatable="true" is available?
>
yes, and a test file so that we can see if it fires.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Mar 01 2007 - 17:00:29 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Mar 1 21:33:00 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 21:33:00 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] data.multipleEnumerated In-Reply-To: <45E74CF8.80709@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17895.36060.877962.886648@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2007 21:33:00 -0500
> I may be misunderstanding. You want me to generate RELAXNG
> comparable to that in ? I vaguely thought you want a
> relaxng-specific lists of lists.
I don't know if it's Relax NG specific or not, but it's a list of
alternate values (repeatable), not a list of lists. Yes, I think it
is exactly like what has.

> > Just to double-check that I understand what you mean -- you want an
> > ODD file that pretends repeatable="true" is available?
> >
> yes, and a test file so that we can see if it fires.
OK. The file
http://bauman.zapto.org/~syd/temp/multipleEnumerated.tgz
contains:
multipleEnumerated/tei_rep_enu.odd:
ODD file with repeatable="true" on type= of
multipleEnumerated/tei_rep_enu.xml
XML instance that should be valid against schemas generated
from the above ODD *except* for those elements
that have "invalid" in their type= values.
Plus the following two schemas, which were generated from
command-line roma[1] without repeatable="true" and then tweaked
by hand to do the right thing:
multipleEnumerated/tei_rep_enu.rnc
multipleEnumerated/tei_rep_enu.rng
Note
---- [1] When I tried to use web-Roma to generate output schemas by uploading the ODD, I got Fatal error: Call to a member function hasChildNodes() on a non-object in /usr/share/tei-roma/roma/romadom.php on line 1851 as soon as I clicked "Submit" on the "Set your parameters" page. _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Mar 01 2007 - 21:33:06 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Mar 2 04:39:45 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 09:39:45 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] data.multipleEnumerated In-Reply-To: <17895.36060.877962.886648@emt.wwp.brown.edu> Message-ID: <45E7F0E1.3000202@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 09:39:45 +0000
Duly implemented and minimally tested; XSD and RELAXNG give right result,
DTD falls back to CDATA
See new P5/Test/testmultenu.* files
changes to XSL committed to Subversion.
Am running full test now.
Assuming no backlash or problem, Syd, you'll
need to hack the ODD to add the new attribute
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Mar 02 2007 - 04:39:48 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Fri Mar 2 09:41:51 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:41:51 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] data.multipleEnumerated In-Reply-To: <45E7F0E1.3000202@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17896.14255.131808.963811@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 09:41:51 -0500
> Duly implemented and minimally tested; XSD and RELAXNG give right
> result, DTD falls back to CDATA
> See new P5/Test/testmultenu.* files
> changes to XSL committed to Subversion.
> Am running full test now.
Excellent, thank you Sebastian. So if anyone has any objection to
this, the time to speak up is NOW.
I'm running `make dist` in Stylesheets now, will test shortly.

> Assuming no backlash or problem, Syd, you'll need to hack the
> ODD to add the new attribute
OK.
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Received on Fri Mar 02 2007 - 09:41:54 EST

From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Mon Mar 5 07:51:33 2007 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:51:33 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Digital Diplomatics conference Message-ID: <45EC1255.1060303@kcl.ac.uk>
From: Arianna Ciula
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:51:33 +0000
Dear council,
For whom is interested, I just wanted to report briefly on the
conference I came back from on Saturday: Digital Diplomatics
http://www.cei.uni-muenchen.de/DigDipl07/index_en.html
The international attendance was quite good with a majority of Germans
of course.
The majority of presented projects deal with a combination of relational
database and use of XML (lots of TEI!).
Few things to mention as far as TEI regards:
Interesting presentations
- good work done by two Italian students using TEI P5 (poster: Viviana
Salardi, Luigi Siciliano: L`edizione digitale dello Statuto di Vicenza
del 1264)
- presentation of ODD by Gautier Poupeau
- integration TEI-CIDOC presented by Christian-Emil Ore
TEI/CEI
As you may know already, the objective of the conference was to give a
glimpse on digital projects related to medieval documents (it succeeded
on this) and to work on the improvements of the CEI (Charter Encoding
Initiative: funded three years ago - http://www.cei.lmu.de/index.htm)
standard to encode these documents in XML. Unfortunately, despite the
good work of synthesis and conceptual modelling done by Patrick Sahle
and Gautier Poupeau, we didn't go very far on the latter, but it seems
to me that
- despite some more or less funded complains on the inability of TEI to
represented the archival community and its objectives, all the CEI
recommendations as they stand could easily been translated and/or
represented in TEI P5
- I will keep an eye on how the community is going to develop the
standard and see what comes up
Happy to give more details to whom is interested.
All the best,
Arianna
-- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London Strand London WC2R 2LS (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Mar 05 2007 - 07:54:36 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Mar 5 13:03:58 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:03:58 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Digital Diplomatics conference In-Reply-To: <45EC1255.1060303@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1173117838.11758.7.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 11:03:58 -0700
Thank you very much for this, Arianna. These kind of reports are always
very interesting.
-dan
On Mon, 2007-05-03 at 12:51 +0000, Arianna Ciula wrote:
> Dear council,
>
> For whom is interested, I just wanted to report briefly on the
> conference I came back from on Saturday: Digital Diplomatics
> http://www.cei.uni-muenchen.de/DigDipl07/index_en.html
>
> The international attendance was quite good with a majority of Germans
> of course.
>
> The majority of presented projects deal with a combination of relational
> database and use of XML (lots of TEI!).
>
> Few things to mention as far as TEI regards:
>
> Interesting presentations
> - good work done by two Italian students using TEI P5 (poster: Viviana
> Salardi, Luigi Siciliano: L`edizione digitale dello Statuto di Vicenza
> del 1264)
> - presentation of ODD by Gautier Poupeau
> - integration TEI-CIDOC presented by Christian-Emil Ore
>
> TEI/CEI
> As you may know already, the objective of the conference was to give a
> glimpse on digital projects related to medieval documents (it succeeded
> on this) and to work on the improvements of the CEI (Charter Encoding
> Initiative: funded three years ago - http://www.cei.lmu.de/index.htm)
> standard to encode these documents in XML. Unfortunately, despite the
> good work of synthesis and conceptual modelling done by Patrick Sahle
> and Gautier Poupeau, we didn't go very far on the latter, but it seems
> to me that
> - despite some more or less funded complains on the inability of TEI to
> represented the archival community and its objectives, all the CEI
> recommendations as they stand could easily been translated and/or
> represented in TEI P5
> - I will keep an eye on how the community is going to develop the
> standard and see what comes up
>
> Happy to give more details to whom is interested.
> All the best,
>
> Arianna
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Mar 05 2007 - 12:58:41 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Mon Mar 5 18:03:35 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:03:35 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SFFR 1007370 Theorem Message-ID: <45ECA1C7.9080000@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 23:03:35 +0000
I believe I have already asked for input from Council about this item.
On the one hand, I think the proposal has some interesting merits. On
the other, I am not sure that the proposal is sufficiently mature and
worked out to be easily integrated into P5 1.0 -- which means that I
need guidance from the Council as to whether or not it should be
prioritized above (say) floating texts, ms abbreviations/expansions, or
the generic place element.
Unless I hear otherwise within the next 48 hours therefore, I will
close this ticket off with a note to the effect that it's scheduled for
consideration at release 1.1 but not before.
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Received on Mon Mar 05 2007 - 18:03:40 EST
From dporter at uky.edu Mon Mar 5 18:42:41 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:42:41 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Digital Diplomatics conference In-Reply-To: <45EC1255.1060303@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <96f3df640703051542v17ed5778v1eaea41e409a8a0b@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2007 15:42:41 -0800
Hi Arianna,
At the TEI member's meeting, you and I and a few other people were
talking about reviving the Transcription SIG, which seems to have
faded a way for a while. Are you interested? The CEI might be a good
point to start off on - will you be at the DH conference this summer?
Dot
On 3/5/07, Arianna Ciula ac.uk> wrote:
> Dear council,
>
> For whom is interested, I just wanted to report briefly on the
> conference I came back from on Saturday: Digital Diplomatics
> http://www.cei.uni-muenchen.de/DigDipl07/index_en.html
>
> The international attendance was quite good with a majority of Germans
> of course.
>
> The majority of presented projects deal with a combination of relational
> database and use of XML (lots of TEI!).
>
> Few things to mention as far as TEI regards:
>
> Interesting presentations
> - good work done by two Italian students using TEI P5 (poster: Viviana
> Salardi, Luigi Siciliano: L`edizione digitale dello Statuto di Vicenza
> del 1264)
> - presentation of ODD by Gautier Poupeau
> - integration TEI-CIDOC presented by Christian-Emil Ore
>
> TEI/CEI
> As you may know already, the objective of the conference was to give a
> glimpse on digital projects related to medieval documents (it succeeded
> on this) and to work on the improvements of the CEI (Charter Encoding
> Initiative: funded three years ago - http://www.cei.lmu.de/index.htm)
> standard to encode these documents in XML. Unfortunately, despite the
> good work of synthesis and conceptual modelling done by Patrick Sahle
> and Gautier Poupeau, we didn't go very far on the latter, but it seems
> to me that
> - despite some more or less funded complains on the inability of TEI to
> represented the archival community and its objectives, all the CEI
> recommendations as they stand could easily been translated and/or
> represented in TEI P5
> - I will keep an eye on how the community is going to develop the
> standard and see what comes up
>
> Happy to give more details to whom is interested.
> All the best,
>
> Arianna
> --
> Dr Arianna Ciula
> Research Associate
> Centre for Computing in the Humanities
> King's College London
> Strand
> London WC2R 2LS (UK)
> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945
> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>

-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Mar 05 2007 - 18:42:44 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Tue Mar 6 02:33:43 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:33:43 +0800 Subject: [tei-council] SFFR 1007370 Theorem In-Reply-To: <45ECA1C7.9080000@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45ED1957.501@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 15:33:43 +0800
Lou Burnard wrote:
> I believe I have already asked for input from Council about this item.
> On the one hand, I think the proposal has some interesting merits. On
> the other, I am not sure that the proposal is sufficiently mature and
> worked out to be easily integrated into P5 1.0 -- which means that I
> need guidance from the Council as to whether or not it should be
> prioritized above (say) floating texts, ms abbreviations/expansions, or
> the generic place element.
in my book, theorem would come after the above mentioned in terms of
priority.
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Mar 06 2007 - 03:03:41 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 6 04:37:29 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:37:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SFFR 1007370 Theorem In-Reply-To: <45ECA1C7.9080000@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20070306093729.GD31263@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 09:37:29 +0000
> worked out to be easily integrated into P5 1.0 -- which means that I
> need guidance from the Council as to whether or not it should be
> prioritized above (say) floating texts, ms abbreviations/expansions, or
> the generic place element.
no contest. put theorem on the backburner
Sebastian
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Received on Tue Mar 06 2007 - 04:37:32 EST
From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Tue Mar 6 04:57:28 2007 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:57:28 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Digital Diplomatics conference In-Reply-To: <96f3df640703051542v17ed5778v1eaea41e409a8a0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45ED3B08.8090107@kcl.ac.uk>
From: Arianna Ciula
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 09:57:28 +0000
Hi Dot,
I remember talking about the Manuscript SIG. Is this what you mean by
Transcription SIG? Dan and Roberto Rosselli del Turco contacted me about
the former and I gave a sort of availability in case nobody was prepared
to chair it.
Should we discuss this out of list with Roberto as well and see what we
could do and report back?
Arianna
Dot Porter wrote:
> Hi Arianna,
>
> At the TEI member's meeting, you and I and a few other people were
> talking about reviving the Transcription SIG, which seems to have
> faded a way for a while. Are you interested? The CEI might be a good
> point to start off on - will you be at the DH conference this summer?
>
> Dot
>
> On 3/5/07, Arianna Ciula ac.uk> wrote:
>> Dear council,
>>
>> For whom is interested, I just wanted to report briefly on the
>> conference I came back from on Saturday: Digital Diplomatics
>> http://www.cei.uni-muenchen.de/DigDipl07/index_en.html
>>
>> The international attendance was quite good with a majority of Germans
>> of course.
>>
>> The majority of presented projects deal with a combination of relational
>> database and use of XML (lots of TEI!).
>>
>> Few things to mention as far as TEI regards:
>>
>> Interesting presentations
>> - good work done by two Italian students using TEI P5 (poster: Viviana
>> Salardi, Luigi Siciliano: L`edizione digitale dello Statuto di Vicenza
>> del 1264)
>> - presentation of ODD by Gautier Poupeau
>> - integration TEI-CIDOC presented by Christian-Emil Ore
>>
>> TEI/CEI
>> As you may know already, the objective of the conference was to give a
>> glimpse on digital projects related to medieval documents (it succeeded
>> on this) and to work on the improvements of the CEI (Charter Encoding
>> Initiative: funded three years ago - http://www.cei.lmu.de/index.htm)
>> standard to encode these documents in XML. Unfortunately, despite the
>> good work of synthesis and conceptual modelling done by Patrick Sahle
>> and Gautier Poupeau, we didn't go very far on the latter, but it seems
>> to me that
>> - despite some more or less funded complains on the inability of TEI to
>> represented the archival community and its objectives, all the CEI
>> recommendations as they stand could easily been translated and/or
>> represented in TEI P5
>> - I will keep an eye on how the community is going to develop the
>> standard and see what comes up
>>
>> Happy to give more details to whom is interested.
>> All the best,
>>
>> Arianna
>> --
>> Dr Arianna Ciula
>> Research Associate
>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities
>> King's College London
>> Strand
>> London WC2R 2LS (UK)
>> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945
>> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch
>> _______________________________________________
>> tei-council mailing list
>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>>
>
>
-- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London Strand London WC2R 2LS (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Mar 06 2007 - 04:57:38 EST
From James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Tue Mar 6 05:19:21 2007 From: James.Cummings at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (James Cummings) Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:19:21 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] SFFR 1007370 Theorem In-Reply-To: <20070306093729.GD31263@raven.linux.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45ED4029.7000403@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: James Cummings
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2007 10:19:21 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>> worked out to be easily integrated into P5 1.0 -- which means that I
>> need guidance from the Council as to whether or not it should be
>> prioritized above (say) floating texts, ms abbreviations/expansions, or
>> the generic place element.
>
> no contest. put theorem on the backburner
Ditto what Sebastian and Christian said.
-James
-- Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Mar 06 2007 - 05:19:25 EST
From dporter at uky.edu Tue Mar 6 06:06:13 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:06:13 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] Digital Diplomatics conference In-Reply-To: <45ED3B08.8090107@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <96f3df640703060306s1ae65334i4c103b86304c38f4@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 03:06:13 -0800
Hi Arianna,
Yes, that's what I meant (I was confusing my "Manuscripts SIG" with my
"TEI Chapter on Transcription of Primary Sources"). Any objections if
Arianna and I take our discussion off-list? Any other takers?
Dot
On 3/6/07, Arianna Ciula ac.uk> wrote:
> Hi Dot,
>
> I remember talking about the Manuscript SIG. Is this what you mean by
> Transcription SIG? Dan and Roberto Rosselli del Turco contacted me about
> the former and I gave a sort of availability in case nobody was prepared
> to chair it.
>
> Should we discuss this out of list with Roberto as well and see what we
> could do and report back?
>
> Arianna
>
> Dot Porter wrote:
> > Hi Arianna,
> >
> > At the TEI member's meeting, you and I and a few other people were
> > talking about reviving the Transcription SIG, which seems to have
> > faded a way for a while. Are you interested? The CEI might be a good
> > point to start off on - will you be at the DH conference this summer?
> >
> > Dot
> >
> > On 3/5/07, Arianna Ciula ac.uk> wrote:
> >> Dear council,
> >>
> >> For whom is interested, I just wanted to report briefly on the
> >> conference I came back from on Saturday: Digital Diplomatics
> >> http://www.cei.uni-muenchen.de/DigDipl07/index_en.html
> >>
> >> The international attendance was quite good with a majority of Germans
> >> of course.
> >>
> >> The majority of presented projects deal with a combination of relational
> >> database and use of XML (lots of TEI!).
> >>
> >> Few things to mention as far as TEI regards:
> >>
> >> Interesting presentations
> >> - good work done by two Italian students using TEI P5 (poster: Viviana
> >> Salardi, Luigi Siciliano: L`edizione digitale dello Statuto di Vicenza
> >> del 1264)
> >> - presentation of ODD by Gautier Poupeau
> >> - integration TEI-CIDOC presented by Christian-Emil Ore
> >>
> >> TEI/CEI
> >> As you may know already, the objective of the conference was to give a
> >> glimpse on digital projects related to medieval documents (it succeeded
> >> on this) and to work on the improvements of the CEI (Charter Encoding
> >> Initiative: funded three years ago - http://www.cei.lmu.de/index.htm)
> >> standard to encode these documents in XML. Unfortunately, despite the
> >> good work of synthesis and conceptual modelling done by Patrick Sahle
> >> and Gautier Poupeau, we didn't go very far on the latter, but it seems
> >> to me that
> >> - despite some more or less funded complains on the inability of TEI to
> >> represented the archival community and its objectives, all the CEI
> >> recommendations as they stand could easily been translated and/or
> >> represented in TEI P5
> >> - I will keep an eye on how the community is going to develop the
> >> standard and see what comes up
> >>
> >> Happy to give more details to whom is interested.
> >> All the best,
> >>
> >> Arianna
> >> --
> >> Dr Arianna Ciula
> >> Research Associate
> >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities
> >> King's College London
> >> Strand
> >> London WC2R 2LS (UK)
> >> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945
> >> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> tei-council mailing list
> >> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
> >>
> >
> >
>
> --
> Dr Arianna Ciula
> Research Associate
> Centre for Computing in the Humanities
> King's College London
> Strand
> London WC2R 2LS (UK)
> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945
> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch
>

-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Mar 06 2007 - 06:06:17 EST

From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Mar 7 07:25:11 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:25:11 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Berlin meeting Message-ID: <45EEAF27.8000402@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:25:11 +0000
Two quick timetabling questions:
(a) Will the Council meeting also be held in the Harnackhaus ("Zentrum
des "deutschen Oxford" :-))? if not, where?
(b) When do we expect that the Council meeting will end?
I am mostly concerned about the latter, as I need to book train tickets
soonish, either for the Friday or for the Saturday afternoon.

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Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 07:25:30 EST

From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Mar 7 07:32:34 2007 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:32:34 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Berlin meeting In-Reply-To: <45EEAF27.8000402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <0F2BA1EB-05EC-402C-B1EE-2A5F1F7AD48B@loria.fr>
From: Laurent Romary
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 13:32:34 +0100
The council meeting will take place at the BBAW, that is in the
center of Berlin. I will disseminate a list of hotels soon (I have a
flight in a few minutes, please be all patient until Friday...).
Laurent
Le 7 mars 07 ? 13:25, Lou Burnard a ?crit :
> Two quick timetabling questions:
>
> (a) Will the Council meeting also be held in the Harnackhaus
> ("Zentrum des "deutschen Oxford" :-))? if not, where?
>
> (b) When do we expect that the Council meeting will end?
>
> I am mostly concerned about the latter, as I need to book train
> tickets soonish, either for the Friday or for the Saturday afternoon.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
_______________________________________________
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http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 07:35:26 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Mar 7 08:00:12 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:00:12 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] Message-ID: <45EEB75C.4010608@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:00:12 +0000
This response from Laurent seems to have been bounced by the server for
some reason:

> Dear all,
> OK. I take a few extra minutes... here's a hotel list for our
> meetings in Berlin. I would suggest to try to pack all issues on
> Thu-Fri.
> Best,
> Laurent
>
>
> Hotel
> Lage
> EZ-Preis
> DZ-Preis
> Sonstiges
> Albrechtshof/Allegra***
>
> Albrechtstr. 8/17
> Hotels liegen vis ? vis
> U-/S-Bahn Friedrichstr. 2min,
>
> 15min zu Fu? zur BBAW
> 95/89 EUR
>
> 115/105 EUR
>
> inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>
> http://www.hotel-albrechtshof.de/
>
> http://www.hotel-allegra.de/
>
> Angleterre****
>
> Friedrichstra?e 31
>
>
>
> U-Bhf. Kochstr.
>
> 12min zu Fu? zur BBAW
>
> 80 EUR
>
> 104 EUR
>
> inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>
> http://www.gold-inn.de/
>
> Dietrich-Bonhoeffer-Haus***
>
> Ziegelstr. 30
>
> U6 Oranienburger Tor ca. 3min,
> U-/S-Bahn Friedrichstr. 5min
>
> 75 EUR
>
> 115 EUR
>
> inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>
> http://www.hotel-dbh.de/
>
> G?stehaus der Humboldt-Uni
>
> Ziegelstr. 13 a/b
> U6 Oranienburger Tor ca. 3min,
> U-/S-Bahn Friedrichstr. 5min
>
> 30 ? 35 EUR
>
> 60 EUR
>
> exkl. Fr?hst?ck
>
> Gendarm****
>
> Charlottenstr. 60/61
> U6 Stadtmitte 2min,
>
> U2 Stadtmitte 3min,
> 4min zu Fu?
> 112 EUR
>
> 132 EUR
>
> inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>
> http://www.hotel-gendarm-berlin.de/
>
> Mercure***
>
> Sch?tzenstr. 11
>
> U6 Kochstr. 4min,
>
> U6 Stadtmitte 5min
> 82 EUR
>
> 112 EUR
>
> inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>
> http://www.mercure.de/
> NH-Hotel**** (ehem. Astron)
>
> Leipziger Str. 106-111
> U6 Stadtmitte 2min,
>
> U2 Stadtmitte 4min,
> 8min zu Fu?
> 86 EUR
>
> 102 EUR
>
> inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>
> http://www.nh-hotels.com/
>
> Novotel***
>
> Fischerinsel 12
> U2 Spittelmarkt 3min,
>
> 15min zu Fu?
> 82 EUR
>
>
>
> 112 EUR
>
>
>
> inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>
> http://www.novotel.de/
>

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Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 08:00:30 EST

From dporter at uky.edu Wed Mar 7 08:12:44 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 05:12:44 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <45EEB75C.4010608@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <96f3df640703070512l6c0023c2mabd6551aa45fee40@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 05:12:44 -0800
Is there interest in coordinating hotel arrangements? I not terribly
keen on trying to make it around Berlin all on my lonesome :-)
Dot
On 3/7/07, Lou Burnard oxford.ac.uk> wrote:
> This response from Laurent seems to have been bounced by the server for
> some reason:
>
>
>
> > Dear all,
> > OK. I take a few extra minutes... here's a hotel list for our
> > meetings in Berlin. I would suggest to try to pack all issues on
> > Thu-Fri.
> > Best,
> > Laurent
> >
> >
> > Hotel
> > Lage
> > EZ-Preis
> > DZ-Preis
> > Sonstiges
> > Albrechtshof/Allegra***
> >
> > Albrechtstr. 8/17
> > Hotels liegen vis ? vis
> > U-/S-Bahn Friedrichstr. 2min,
> >
> > 15min zu Fu? zur BBAW
> > 95/89 EUR
> >
> > 115/105 EUR
> >
> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
> >
> > http://www.hotel-albrechtshof.de/
> >
> > http://www.hotel-allegra.de/
> >
> > Angleterre****
> >
> > Friedrichstra?e 31
> >
> >
> >
> > U-Bhf. Kochstr.
> >
> > 12min zu Fu? zur BBAW
> >
> > 80 EUR
> >
> > 104 EUR
> >
> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
> >
> > http://www.gold-inn.de/
> >
> > Dietrich-Bonhoeffer-Haus***
> >
> > Ziegelstr. 30
> >
> > U6 Oranienburger Tor ca. 3min,
> > U-/S-Bahn Friedrichstr. 5min
> >
> > 75 EUR
> >
> > 115 EUR
> >
> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
> >
> > http://www.hotel-dbh.de/
> >
> > G?stehaus der Humboldt-Uni
> >
> > Ziegelstr. 13 a/b
> > U6 Oranienburger Tor ca. 3min,
> > U-/S-Bahn Friedrichstr. 5min
> >
> > 30 ? 35 EUR
> >
> > 60 EUR
> >
> > exkl. Fr?hst?ck
> >
> > Gendarm****
> >
> > Charlottenstr. 60/61
> > U6 Stadtmitte 2min,
> >
> > U2 Stadtmitte 3min,
> > 4min zu Fu?
> > 112 EUR
> >
> > 132 EUR
> >
> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
> >
> > http://www.hotel-gendarm-berlin.de/
> >
> > Mercure***
> >
> > Sch?tzenstr. 11
> >
> > U6 Kochstr. 4min,
> >
> > U6 Stadtmitte 5min
> > 82 EUR
> >
> > 112 EUR
> >
> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
> >
> > http://www.mercure.de/
> > NH-Hotel**** (ehem. Astron)
> >
> > Leipziger Str. 106-111
> > U6 Stadtmitte 2min,
> >
> > U2 Stadtmitte 4min,
> > 8min zu Fu?
> > 86 EUR
> >
> > 102 EUR
> >
> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
> >
> > http://www.nh-hotels.com/
> >
> > Novotel***
> >
> > Fischerinsel 12
> > U2 Spittelmarkt 3min,
> >
> > 15min zu Fu?
> > 82 EUR
> >
> >
> >
> > 112 EUR
> >
> >
> >
> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
> >
> > http://www.novotel.de/
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>

-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 08:12:49 EST

From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Mar 7 08:27:00 2007 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:27:00 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <96f3df640703070512l6c0023c2mabd6551aa45fee40@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45EEBDA4.4040900@kcl.ac.uk>
From: Arianna Ciula
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:27:00 +0000
I was going to ask the same.
Arianna
Dot Porter wrote:
> Is there interest in coordinating hotel arrangements? I not terribly
> keen on trying to make it around Berlin all on my lonesome :-)
>
> Dot
>
> On 3/7/07, Lou Burnard oxford.ac.uk> wrote:
>> This response from Laurent seems to have been bounced by the server for
>> some reason:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Dear all,
>> > OK. I take a few extra minutes... here's a hotel list for our
>> > meetings in Berlin. I would suggest to try to pack all issues on
>> > Thu-Fri.
>> > Best,
>> > Laurent
>> >
>> >
>> > Hotel
>> > Lage
>> > EZ-Preis
>> > DZ-Preis
>> > Sonstiges
>> > Albrechtshof/Allegra***
>> >
>> > Albrechtstr. 8/17
>> > Hotels liegen vis ?? vis
>> > U-/S-Bahn Friedrichstr. 2min,
>> >
>> > 15min zu Fu?? zur BBAW
>> > 95/89 EUR
>> >
>> > 115/105 EUR
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr??hst??ck
>> >
>> > http://www.hotel-albrechtshof.de/
>> >
>> > http://www.hotel-allegra.de/
>> >
>> > Angleterre****
>> >
>> > Friedrichstra??e 31
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > U-Bhf. Kochstr.
>> >
>> > 12min zu Fu?? zur BBAW
>> >
>> > 80 EUR
>> >
>> > 104 EUR
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr??hst??ck
>> >
>> > http://www.gold-inn.de/
>> >
>> > Dietrich-Bonhoeffer-Haus***
>> >
>> > Ziegelstr. 30
>> >
>> > U6 Oranienburger Tor ca. 3min,
>> > U-/S-Bahn Friedrichstr. 5min
>> >
>> > 75 EUR
>> >
>> > 115 EUR
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr??hst??ck
>> >
>> > http://www.hotel-dbh.de/
>> >
>> > G??stehaus der Humboldt-Uni
>> >
>> > Ziegelstr. 13 a/b
>> > U6 Oranienburger Tor ca. 3min,
>> > U-/S-Bahn Friedrichstr. 5min
>> >
>> > 30 ??? 35 EUR
>> >
>> > 60 EUR
>> >
>> > exkl. Fr??hst??ck
>> >
>> > Gendarm****
>> >
>> > Charlottenstr. 60/61
>> > U6 Stadtmitte 2min,
>> >
>> > U2 Stadtmitte 3min,
>> > 4min zu Fu??
>> > 112 EUR
>> >
>> > 132 EUR
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr??hst??ck
>> >
>> > http://www.hotel-gendarm-berlin.de/
>> >
>> > Mercure***
>> >
>> > Sch??tzenstr. 11
>> >
>> > U6 Kochstr. 4min,
>> >
>> > U6 Stadtmitte 5min
>> > 82 EUR
>> >
>> > 112 EUR
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr??hst??ck
>> >
>> > http://www.mercure.de/
>> > NH-Hotel**** (ehem. Astron)
>> >
>> > Leipziger Str. 106-111
>> > U6 Stadtmitte 2min,
>> >
>> > U2 Stadtmitte 4min,
>> > 8min zu Fu??
>> > 86 EUR
>> >
>> > 102 EUR
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr??hst??ck
>> >
>> > http://www.nh-hotels.com/
>> >
>> > Novotel***
>> >
>> > Fischerinsel 12
>> > U2 Spittelmarkt 3min,
>> >
>> > 15min zu Fu??
>> > 82 EUR
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 112 EUR
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr??hst??ck
>> >
>> > http://www.novotel.de/
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tei-council mailing list
>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>>
>
>
-- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London Strand London WC2R 2LS (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 08:27:55 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 7 08:35:24 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:35:24 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <45EEBDA4.4040900@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45EEBF9C.20207@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 13:35:24 +0000
I propose the http://www.hotel-albrechtshof.de/

-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 08:35:28 EST

From tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no Wed Mar 7 08:58:01 2007 From: tone.bruvik at aksis.uib.no (Tone Merete Bruvik) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 14:58:01 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <96f3df640703070512l6c0023c2mabd6551aa45fee40@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01DAC665-DB88-4415-8514-FEECEA2C1A0C@aksis.uib.no>
From: Tone Merete Bruvik
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 14:58:01 +0100
A coordinating hotel arrangements would be nice, or at leased would
it be nice to stay at the same hotel as some of you (nice to have
company at the way back at night). I like to stay somewhere in
walking distance from the meeting, but most of Laurent's suggestions
seams to meet that criteria, so any suggestion on which hotel to
choose would be welcome.
I need to book my tickets in a few days. I guess that we have to
arrive on the afternoon of April 24, but as Lou also mentioned, I
need to know when the meeting will end on Friday, as I have an option
to leave Friday night.
Tone Merete
Den 7. mar. 2007 kl. 14.12 skrev Dot Porter:
> Is there interest in coordinating hotel arrangements? I not terribly
> keen on trying to make it around Berlin all on my lonesome :-)
>
> Dot
>
> On 3/7/07, Lou Burnard
> services.oxford.ac.uk> wrote:
>> This response from Laurent seems to have been bounced by the
>> server for
>> some reason:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Dear all,
>> > OK. I take a few extra minutes... here's a hotel list for our
>> > meetings in Berlin. I would suggest to try to pack all issues on
>> > Thu-Fri.
>> > Best,
>> > Laurent
>> >
>> >
>> > Hotel
>> > Lage
>> > EZ-Preis
>> > DZ-Preis
>> > Sonstiges
>> > Albrechtshof/Allegra***
>> >
>> > Albrechtstr. 8/17
>> > Hotels liegen vis ? vis
>> > U-/S-Bahn Friedrichstr. 2min,
>> >
>> > 15min zu Fu? zur BBAW
>> > 95/89 EUR
>> >
>> > 115/105 EUR
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>> >
>> > http://www.hotel-albrechtshof.de/
>> >
>> > http://www.hotel-allegra.de/
>> >
>> > Angleterre****
>> >
>> > Friedrichstra?e 31
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > U-Bhf. Kochstr.
>> >
>> > 12min zu Fu? zur BBAW
>> >
>> > 80 EUR
>> >
>> > 104 EUR
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>> >
>> > http://www.gold-inn.de/
>> >
>> > Dietrich-Bonhoeffer-Haus***
>> >
>> > Ziegelstr. 30
>> >
>> > U6 Oranienburger Tor ca. 3min,
>> > U-/S-Bahn Friedrichstr. 5min
>> >
>> > 75 EUR
>> >
>> > 115 EUR
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>> >
>> > http://www.hotel-dbh.de/
>> >
>> > G?stehaus der Humboldt-Uni
>> >
>> > Ziegelstr. 13 a/b
>> > U6 Oranienburger Tor ca. 3min,
>> > U-/S-Bahn Friedrichstr. 5min
>> >
>> > 30 ? 35 EUR
>> >
>> > 60 EUR
>> >
>> > exkl. Fr?hst?ck
>> >
>> > Gendarm****
>> >
>> > Charlottenstr. 60/61
>> > U6 Stadtmitte 2min,
>> >
>> > U2 Stadtmitte 3min,
>> > 4min zu Fu?
>> > 112 EUR
>> >
>> > 132 EUR
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>> >
>> > http://www.hotel-gendarm-berlin.de/
>> >
>> > Mercure***
>> >
>> > Sch?tzenstr. 11
>> >
>> > U6 Kochstr. 4min,
>> >
>> > U6 Stadtmitte 5min
>> > 82 EUR
>> >
>> > 112 EUR
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>> >
>> > http://www.mercure.de/
>> > NH-Hotel**** (ehem. Astron)
>> >
>> > Leipziger Str. 106-111
>> > U6 Stadtmitte 2min,
>> >
>> > U2 Stadtmitte 4min,
>> > 8min zu Fu?
>> > 86 EUR
>> >
>> > 102 EUR
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>> >
>> > http://www.nh-hotels.com/
>> >
>> > Novotel***
>> >
>> > Fischerinsel 12
>> > U2 Spittelmarkt 3min,
>> >
>> > 15min zu Fu?
>> > 82 EUR
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 112 EUR
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > inkl. Fr?hst?ck
>> >
>> > http://www.novotel.de/
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tei-council mailing list
>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>>
>
>
> --
> ***************************************
> Dot Porter, University of Kentucky
> #####
> Program Coordinator
> Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities
> dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549
> #####
> Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project
> Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments
> porter_at_vis.uky.edu
> ***************************************
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
_______________________________________________
tei-council mailing list
tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 08:58:10 EST
From laurent.romary at loria.fr Wed Mar 7 09:03:31 2007 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:03:31 +0100 Subject: !SPAM? Re: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <45EEBF9C.20207@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <457A2C60-56CC-40EE-85C6-F1D06079049E@loria.fr>
From: Laurent Romary
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 15:03:31 +0100
Dear all,
You may also interested on having a pointer to the online map of
Berlin: see http://www.berlin.de/stadtplan/_html/index.html
Best,
Laurent

Le 7 mars 07 ? 14:35, Sebastian Rahtz a ?crit :
> I propose the http://www.hotel-albrechtshof.de/
>
>
> --
> Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University
> Computing Services
> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
>
> OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
_______________________________________________
tei-council mailing list
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Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 09:05:17 EST

From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Mar 7 09:12:29 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:12:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <01DAC665-DB88-4415-8514-FEECEA2C1A0C@aksis.uib.no> Message-ID: <45EEC84D.6020409@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:12:29 +0000
I suggest we appoint a hotel booking workgroup, and propose Ariana and
Dot as co-chairs!

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Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 09:12:32 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 7 09:14:09 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:14:09 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <45EEC84D.6020409@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45EEC8B1.8080705@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:14:09 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
> I suggest we appoint a hotel booking workgroup, and propose Ariana and
> Dot as co-chairs!
>
with a rider that anything which is an international chain like Novotel
is ruled out....?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 09:14:14 EST
From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Mar 7 09:27:29 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:27:29 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <45EEC8B1.8080705@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45EECBD1.7030308@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:27:29 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Lou Burnard wrote:
>> I suggest we appoint a hotel booking workgroup, and propose Ariana and
>> Dot as co-chairs!
>>
> with a rider that anything which is an international chain like Novotel
> is ruled out....?
>
How about international chains like Accor/Mercure etc. ? (I have a
loyalty card with them)

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Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 09:27:47 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 7 09:29:13 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:29:13 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <45EECBD1.7030308@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45EECC39.2000001@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:29:13 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
>
>>> I suggest we appoint a hotel booking workgroup, and propose Ariana
>>> and Dot as co-chairs!
>>>
>> with a rider that anything which is an international chain like
>> Novotel is ruled out....?
>>
>
> How about international chains like Accor/Mercure etc. ? (I have a
> loyalty card with them)
>
pah. have you no shame?

-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 09:29:16 EST

From lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk Wed Mar 7 09:32:10 2007 From: lou.burnard at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Lou Burnard) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:32:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <45EECC39.2000001@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45EECCEA.8050400@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Lou Burnard
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:32:10 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Lou Burnard wrote:
>>
>>>> I suggest we appoint a hotel booking workgroup, and propose Ariana
>>>> and Dot as co-chairs!
>>>>
>>> with a rider that anything which is an international chain like
>>> Novotel is ruled out....?
>>>
>>
>> How about international chains like Accor/Mercure etc. ? (I have a
>> loyalty card with them)
>>
> pah. have you no shame?
>
>
They made me do it (and it got me discounted wifi). But seriously, if we
are going to delegate this task, I propose we let the Hotel Booking
WorkGroup decide TEI policy on the matter.
My criteria are simple: easy access to the Hauptbahnhof and the Meeting
Location; wifi; price.

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Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 09:32:29 EST

From dporter at uky.edu Wed Mar 7 09:38:02 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:38:02 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <45EECCEA.8050400@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <96f3df640703070638w63828e3ct4a1aef81b7519bc2@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 09:38:02 -0500
I'm happy to co-chair, I guess that's what I get for being the first
to speak up :-)
Dot
On 3/7/07, Lou Burnard oxford.ac.uk> wrote:
> Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> > Lou Burnard wrote:
> >>
> >>>> I suggest we appoint a hotel booking workgroup, and propose Ariana
> >>>> and Dot as co-chairs!
> >>>>
> >>> with a rider that anything which is an international chain like
> >>> Novotel is ruled out....?
> >>>
> >>
> >> How about international chains like Accor/Mercure etc. ? (I have a
> >> loyalty card with them)
> >>
> > pah. have you no shame?
> >
> >
>
> They made me do it (and it got me discounted wifi). But seriously, if we
> are going to delegate this task, I propose we let the Hotel Booking
> WorkGroup decide TEI policy on the matter.
>
> My criteria are simple: easy access to the Hauptbahnhof and the Meeting
> Location; wifi; price.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>

-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 09:38:06 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 7 09:48:52 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:48:52 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <45EECCEA.8050400@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45EED0D4.2010005@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 14:48:52 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
>
> My criteria are simple: easy access to the Hauptbahnhof and the
> Meeting Location; wifi; price.
and I just want somewhere cute.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 09:48:56 EST
From arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk Wed Mar 7 12:45:54 2007 From: arianna.ciula at kcl.ac.uk (Arianna Ciula) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:45:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <96f3df640703070638w63828e3ct4a1aef81b7519bc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45EEFA52.4040000@kcl.ac.uk>
From: Arianna Ciula
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 17:45:54 +0000
I am happy to co-chair as well, but need to add another criterion:
- if I need to book we have to decide before Friday, because after that
I'll be on holiday for a week.
Arianna
Dot Porter wrote:
> I'm happy to co-chair, I guess that's what I get for being the first
> to speak up :-)
>
> Dot
>
> On 3/7/07, Lou Burnard oxford.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>> > Lou Burnard wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> I suggest we appoint a hotel booking workgroup, and propose Ariana
>> >>>> and Dot as co-chairs!
>> >>>>
>> >>> with a rider that anything which is an international chain like
>> >>> Novotel is ruled out....?
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> How about international chains like Accor/Mercure etc. ? (I have a
>> >> loyalty card with them)
>> >>
>> > pah. have you no shame?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> They made me do it (and it got me discounted wifi). But seriously, if we
>> are going to delegate this task, I propose we let the Hotel Booking
>> WorkGroup decide TEI policy on the matter.
>>
>> My criteria are simple: easy access to the Hauptbahnhof and the Meeting
>> Location; wifi; price.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tei-council mailing list
>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>>
>
>
-- Dr Arianna Ciula Research Associate Centre for Computing in the Humanities King's College London Strand London WC2R 2LS (UK) Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945 http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 12:46:13 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Mar 7 13:25:44 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:25:44 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Digital Diplomatics conference In-Reply-To: <96f3df640703060306s1ae65334i4c103b86304c38f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1173291945.20729.54.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:25:44 -0700
I'd made a couple of steps towards moving this forward. I was asked to
contact Fotis Jannis about this but heard nothing back from him. I'll
bug him again.
-dan
On Tue, 2007-06-03 at 03:06 -0800, Dot Porter wrote:
> Hi Arianna,
>
> Yes, that's what I meant (I was confusing my "Manuscripts SIG" with my
> "TEI Chapter on Transcription of Primary Sources"). Any objections if
> Arianna and I take our discussion off-list? Any other takers?
>
> Dot
>
> On 3/6/07, Arianna Ciula ac.uk> wrote:
> > Hi Dot,
> >
> > I remember talking about the Manuscript SIG. Is this what you mean by
> > Transcription SIG? Dan and Roberto Rosselli del Turco contacted me about
> > the former and I gave a sort of availability in case nobody was prepared
> > to chair it.
> >
> > Should we discuss this out of list with Roberto as well and see what we
> > could do and report back?
> >
> > Arianna
> >
> > Dot Porter wrote:
> > > Hi Arianna,
> > >
> > > At the TEI member's meeting, you and I and a few other people were
> > > talking about reviving the Transcription SIG, which seems to have
> > > faded a way for a while. Are you interested? The CEI might be a good
> > > point to start off on - will you be at the DH conference this summer?
> > >
> > > Dot
> > >
> > > On 3/5/07, Arianna Ciula ac.uk> wrote:
> > >> Dear council,
> > >>
> > >> For whom is interested, I just wanted to report briefly on the
> > >> conference I came back from on Saturday: Digital Diplomatics
> > >> http://www.cei.uni-muenchen.de/DigDipl07/index_en.html
> > >>
> > >> The international attendance was quite good with a majority of Germans
> > >> of course.
> > >>
> > >> The majority of presented projects deal with a combination of relational
> > >> database and use of XML (lots of TEI!).
> > >>
> > >> Few things to mention as far as TEI regards:
> > >>
> > >> Interesting presentations
> > >> - good work done by two Italian students using TEI P5 (poster: Viviana
> > >> Salardi, Luigi Siciliano: L`edizione digitale dello Statuto di Vicenza
> > >> del 1264)
> > >> - presentation of ODD by Gautier Poupeau
> > >> - integration TEI-CIDOC presented by Christian-Emil Ore
> > >>
> > >> TEI/CEI
> > >> As you may know already, the objective of the conference was to give a
> > >> glimpse on digital projects related to medieval documents (it succeeded
> > >> on this) and to work on the improvements of the CEI (Charter Encoding
> > >> Initiative: funded three years ago - http://www.cei.lmu.de/index.htm)
> > >> standard to encode these documents in XML. Unfortunately, despite the
> > >> good work of synthesis and conceptual modelling done by Patrick Sahle
> > >> and Gautier Poupeau, we didn't go very far on the latter, but it seems
> > >> to me that
> > >> - despite some more or less funded complains on the inability of TEI to
> > >> represented the archival community and its objectives, all the CEI
> > >> recommendations as they stand could easily been translated and/or
> > >> represented in TEI P5
> > >> - I will keep an eye on how the community is going to develop the
> > >> standard and see what comes up
> > >>
> > >> Happy to give more details to whom is interested.
> > >> All the best,
> > >>
> > >> Arianna
> > >> --
> > >> Dr Arianna Ciula
> > >> Research Associate
> > >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities
> > >> King's College London
> > >> Strand
> > >> London WC2R 2LS (UK)
> > >> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945
> > >> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> tei-council mailing list
> > >> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Dr Arianna Ciula
> > Research Associate
> > Centre for Computing in the Humanities
> > King's College London
> > Strand
> > London WC2R 2LS (UK)
> > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945
> > http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch
> >
>
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 13:20:14 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Mar 7 13:29:18 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:29:18 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] Digital Diplomatics conference In-Reply-To: <1173291945.20729.54.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <1173292158.20729.57.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 11:29:18 -0700
Apologies for a public email to the list. And spelling Fotis Jannidis's
name wrong.
On Wed, 2007-07-03 at 11:25 -0700, Dan O'Donnell wrote:
> I'd made a couple of steps towards moving this forward. I was asked to
> contact Fotis Jannis about this but heard nothing back from him. I'll
> bug him again.
>
> -dan
>
> On Tue, 2007-06-03 at 03:06 -0800, Dot Porter wrote:
> > Hi Arianna,
> >
> > Yes, that's what I meant (I was confusing my "Manuscripts SIG" with my
> > "TEI Chapter on Transcription of Primary Sources"). Any objections if
> > Arianna and I take our discussion off-list? Any other takers?
> >
> > Dot
> >
> > On 3/6/07, Arianna Ciula ac.uk> wrote:
> > > Hi Dot,
> > >
> > > I remember talking about the Manuscript SIG. Is this what you mean by
> > > Transcription SIG? Dan and Roberto Rosselli del Turco contacted me about
> > > the former and I gave a sort of availability in case nobody was prepared
> > > to chair it.
> > >
> > > Should we discuss this out of list with Roberto as well and see what we
> > > could do and report back?
> > >
> > > Arianna
> > >
> > > Dot Porter wrote:
> > > > Hi Arianna,
> > > >
> > > > At the TEI member's meeting, you and I and a few other people were
> > > > talking about reviving the Transcription SIG, which seems to have
> > > > faded a way for a while. Are you interested? The CEI might be a good
> > > > point to start off on - will you be at the DH conference this summer?
> > > >
> > > > Dot
> > > >
> > > > On 3/5/07, Arianna Ciula ac.uk> wrote:
> > > >> Dear council,
> > > >>
> > > >> For whom is interested, I just wanted to report briefly on the
> > > >> conference I came back from on Saturday: Digital Diplomatics
> > > >> http://www.cei.uni-muenchen.de/DigDipl07/index_en.html
> > > >>
> > > >> The international attendance was quite good with a majority of Germans
> > > >> of course.
> > > >>
> > > >> The majority of presented projects deal with a combination of relational
> > > >> database and use of XML (lots of TEI!).
> > > >>
> > > >> Few things to mention as far as TEI regards:
> > > >>
> > > >> Interesting presentations
> > > >> - good work done by two Italian students using TEI P5 (poster: Viviana
> > > >> Salardi, Luigi Siciliano: L`edizione digitale dello Statuto di Vicenza
> > > >> del 1264)
> > > >> - presentation of ODD by Gautier Poupeau
> > > >> - integration TEI-CIDOC presented by Christian-Emil Ore
> > > >>
> > > >> TEI/CEI
> > > >> As you may know already, the objective of the conference was to give a
> > > >> glimpse on digital projects related to medieval documents (it succeeded
> > > >> on this) and to work on the improvements of the CEI (Charter Encoding
> > > >> Initiative: funded three years ago - http://www.cei.lmu.de/index.htm)
> > > >> standard to encode these documents in XML. Unfortunately, despite the
> > > >> good work of synthesis and conceptual modelling done by Patrick Sahle
> > > >> and Gautier Poupeau, we didn't go very far on the latter, but it seems
> > > >> to me that
> > > >> - despite some more or less funded complains on the inability of TEI to
> > > >> represented the archival community and its objectives, all the CEI
> > > >> recommendations as they stand could easily been translated and/or
> > > >> represented in TEI P5
> > > >> - I will keep an eye on how the community is going to develop the
> > > >> standard and see what comes up
> > > >>
> > > >> Happy to give more details to whom is interested.
> > > >> All the best,
> > > >>
> > > >> Arianna
> > > >> --
> > > >> Dr Arianna Ciula
> > > >> Research Associate
> > > >> Centre for Computing in the Humanities
> > > >> King's College London
> > > >> Strand
> > > >> London WC2R 2LS (UK)
> > > >> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945
> > > >> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> tei-council mailing list
> > > >> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > > >> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dr Arianna Ciula
> > > Research Associate
> > > Centre for Computing in the Humanities
> > > King's College London
> > > Strand
> > > London WC2R 2LS (UK)
> > > Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945
> > > http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch
> > >
> >
> >
> --
> Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD
> Chair, Text Encoding Initiative
> Director, Digital Medievalist Project
> Associate Professor and Chair of English
> University of Lethbridge
> Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4
> Vox: +1 403 329 2378
> Fax: +1 403 382-7191
> Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 13:23:45 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Wed Mar 7 14:06:25 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:06:25 -0700 Subject: [tei-council] work for March In-Reply-To: <45E6C768.1080400@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1173294385.20729.89.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 12:06:25 -0700
Sebastian,
I'm about to sign up for my chapters. Are you actively working on any of
the ones assigned to you?
Do you have a recommendation for how many each member of council should
take? I was thinking of signing up for five to start and see what I
could do over the weekend. Howzat sound?
-dan
On Thu, 2007-01-03 at 12:30 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> Happy St David's Day.
>
> Looking at the plan of work scheduled for March, it goes as follows:
>
> * (end of tasks relating to feature requests, 12 hours to go)
> * design output format (JC and DP now on case)
> * review datatype and class decisions
> * proofread text looking for DTD and P4 language
>
> the latter two involve taking each chapter, looking
> for problems and ideally dealing with them. In most
> cases it will just a matter of someone signing off a
> chapter as having a clean bill of health. If something
> comes out which cannot be dealt with in (say)
> an hours work rewriting a paragraph, or making
> a simple decision about a datatype, then it should
> be broken out to a new task which can assigned its
> own deadline and so on.
>
> I think its "adopt a chapter" day again.
>
> Sebastian
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 14:00:52 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Wed Mar 7 14:12:10 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:12:10 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] work for March In-Reply-To: <1173294385.20729.89.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45EF0E8A.4030300@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:12:10 +0000
Daniel,
I am getting
daniel.odonnell_at_uleth.ca
SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:ca>:
host bellatrix.uleth.ca [142.66.3.43]: 550 Refused:
Unknown local recipient

maybe this list one will get through to warn you?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 14:12:19 EST

From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Wed Mar 7 19:49:42 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 19:49:42 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] SFFR 1007370 Theorem In-Reply-To: <45ED4029.7000403@computing-services.oxford.ac.uk> Message-ID: <17903.23974.159737.236505@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2007 19:49:42 -0500
I think since users can, if necessary, make use of and to
encode theorems for now, this can safely be deferred to 1.1.
_______________________________________________
tei-council mailing list
tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
Received on Wed Mar 07 2007 - 19:49:46 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Thu Mar 8 00:45:11 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:45:11 +0800 Subject: [tei-council] Berlin meeting In-Reply-To: <45EEAF27.8000402@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45EFA2E7.5090308@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:45:11 +0800
Lou Burnard wrote:
> Two quick timetabling questions:
>
> (a) Will the Council meeting also be held in the Harnackhaus ("Zentrum
> des "deutschen Oxford" :-))? if not, where?
>
Im "Zentrum des deutschen Berlin", apparently:-)
> (b) When do we expect that the Council meeting will end?
>
Judging from previous years' experience, I would think we need full 2
days 9 to 5; it seems unlikely that we are done before 5 pm on Friday.
I also do not think a meeting is productive, where half the participants
have to run to a train midway through. I would recommend therefore to
book for the late evening or Saturday.
We used to keep Saturday 'just in case' but never made use of it, so I
am prepared to get rid of that part.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Mar 08 2007 - 01:11:10 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Thu Mar 8 00:48:03 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:48:03 +0800 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <45EEFA52.4040000@kcl.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45EFA393.9060407@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 13:48:03 +0800
Arianna Ciula wrote:
> I am happy to co-chair as well, but need to add another criterion:
>
> - if I need to book we have to decide before Friday, because after that
> I'll be on holiday for a week.
>
Not sure if trying to do the booking would be effective; you would need
to trac(k) everybody's schedule etc. Maybe you can just figure out what
seems to be reasonable given our preferences and post it to the list?
Participants could then make their own informed decisions.
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Mar 08 2007 - 01:11:17 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Thu Mar 8 03:53:30 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:53:30 +0800 Subject: [tei-council] work for March In-Reply-To: <1173294385.20729.89.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45EFCF0A.4080807@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2007 16:53:30 +0800
Dan O'Donnell wrote:
> Sebastian,
>
> I'm about to sign up for my chapters. Are you actively working on any of
> the ones assigned to you?
>
> Do you have a recommendation for how many each member of council should
> take? I was thinking of signing up for five to start and see what I
> could do over the weekend. Howzat sound?
That's great. You will submit your changes to the P5-Council branch, I
hope?
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Mar 08 2007 - 04:41:46 EST
From dporter at uky.edu Thu Mar 8 06:56:28 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 03:56:28 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] [Fwd: Fwd: Hotels in Berlin] In-Reply-To: <45EFA393.9060407@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <96f3df640703080356v15f041deh9bc59cc10f93809f@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 03:56:28 -0800
Arianna, I agree with Christian. There's no need to book a group of
rooms together, but we can make a recommendation. I just want to make
sure I'm not alone in my hotel, don't want to get lost getting to and
from the meetings.
Of course folks are free to choose another hotel if the one we
recommend isn't cute enough.
Dot
On 3/7/07, Christian Wittern zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> wrote:
> Arianna Ciula wrote:
> > I am happy to co-chair as well, but need to add another criterion:
> >
> > - if I need to book we have to decide before Friday, because after that
> > I'll be on holiday for a week.
> >
>
> Not sure if trying to do the booking would be effective; you would need
> to trac(k) everybody's schedule etc. Maybe you can just figure out what
> seems to be reasonable given our preferences and post it to the list?
>
> Participants could then make their own informed decisions.
>
> Christian
>
>
> --
>
> Christian Wittern
> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
> 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
>

-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Mar 08 2007 - 06:56:33 EST

From laurent.romary at loria.fr Thu Mar 8 07:58:05 2007 From: laurent.romary at loria.fr (Laurent Romary) Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:58:05 +0100 Subject: [tei-council] Digital Diplomatics conference In-Reply-To: <1173292158.20729.57.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <101D63BA-1E66-4869-B4ED-431387C90D59@loria.fr>
From: Laurent Romary
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2007 13:58:05 +0100
Never mind. I actually see Fotis next week and czn put pressure on
him if you want.
Laurent

Le 7 mars 07 ? 19:29, Dan O'Donnell a ?crit :
> Apologies for a public email to the list. And spelling Fotis
> Jannidis's
> name wrong.
>
> On Wed, 2007-07-03 at 11:25 -0700, Dan O'Donnell wrote:
>> I'd made a couple of steps towards moving this forward. I was
>> asked to
>> contact Fotis Jannis about this but heard nothing back from him. I'll
>> bug him again.
>>
>> -dan
>>
>> On Tue, 2007-06-03 at 03:06 -0800, Dot Porter wrote:
>>> Hi Arianna,
>>>
>>> Yes, that's what I meant (I was confusing my "Manuscripts SIG"
>>> with my
>>> "TEI Chapter on Transcription of Primary Sources"). Any
>>> objections if
>>> Arianna and I take our discussion off-list? Any other takers?
>>>
>>> Dot
>>>
>>> On 3/6/07, Arianna Ciula ac.uk> wrote:
>>>> Hi Dot,
>>>>
>>>> I remember talking about the Manuscript SIG. Is this what you
>>>> mean by
>>>> Transcription SIG? Dan and Roberto Rosselli del Turco contacted
>>>> me about
>>>> the former and I gave a sort of availability in case nobody was
>>>> prepared
>>>> to chair it.
>>>>
>>>> Should we discuss this out of list with Roberto as well and see
>>>> what we
>>>> could do and report back?
>>>>
>>>> Arianna
>>>>
>>>> Dot Porter wrote:
>>>>> Hi Arianna,
>>>>>
>>>>> At the TEI member's meeting, you and I and a few other people were
>>>>> talking about reviving the Transcription SIG, which seems to have
>>>>> faded a way for a while. Are you interested? The CEI might be a
>>>>> good
>>>>> point to start off on - will you be at the DH conference this
>>>>> summer?
>>>>>
>>>>> Dot
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/5/07, Arianna Ciula ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Dear council,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For whom is interested, I just wanted to report briefly on the
>>>>>> conference I came back from on Saturday: Digital Diplomatics
>>>>>> http://www.cei.uni-muenchen.de/DigDipl07/index_en.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The international attendance was quite good with a majority of
>>>>>> Germans
>>>>>> of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The majority of presented projects deal with a combination of
>>>>>> relational
>>>>>> database and use of XML (lots of TEI!).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Few things to mention as far as TEI regards:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting presentations
>>>>>> - good work done by two Italian students using TEI P5 (poster:
>>>>>> Viviana
>>>>>> Salardi, Luigi Siciliano: L`edizione digitale dello Statuto di
>>>>>> Vicenza
>>>>>> del 1264)
>>>>>> - presentation of ODD by Gautier Poupeau
>>>>>> - integration TEI-CIDOC presented by Christian-Emil Ore
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TEI/CEI
>>>>>> As you may know already, the objective of the conference was
>>>>>> to give a
>>>>>> glimpse on digital projects related to medieval documents (it
>>>>>> succeeded
>>>>>> on this) and to work on the improvements of the CEI (Charter
>>>>>> Encoding
>>>>>> Initiative: funded three years ago - http://www.cei.lmu.de/
>>>>>> index.htm)
>>>>>> standard to encode these documents in XML. Unfortunately,
>>>>>> despite the
>>>>>> good work of synthesis and conceptual modelling done by
>>>>>> Patrick Sahle
>>>>>> and Gautier Poupeau, we didn't go very far on the latter, but
>>>>>> it seems
>>>>>> to me that
>>>>>> - despite some more or less funded complains on the inability
>>>>>> of TEI to
>>>>>> represented the archival community and its objectives, all the
>>>>>> CEI
>>>>>> recommendations as they stand could easily been translated and/or
>>>>>> represented in TEI P5
>>>>>> - I will keep an eye on how the community is going to develop the
>>>>>> standard and see what comes up
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happy to give more details to whom is interested.
>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arianna
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Dr Arianna Ciula
>>>>>> Research Associate
>>>>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities
>>>>>> King's College London
>>>>>> Strand
>>>>>> London WC2R 2LS (UK)
>>>>>> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945
>>>>>> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> tei-council mailing list
>>>>>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>>>>>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dr Arianna Ciula
>>>> Research Associate
>>>> Centre for Computing in the Humanities
>>>> King's College London
>>>> Strand
>>>> London WC2R 2LS (UK)
>>>> Tel: +44 (0)20 78481945
>>>> http://www.kcl.ac.uk/cch
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD
>> Chair, Text Encoding Initiative
>> Director, Digital Medievalist Project
>> www.digitalmedievalist.org/>
>> Associate Professor and Chair of English
>> University of Lethbridge
>> Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4
>> Vox: +1 403 329 2378
>> Fax: +1 403 382-7191
>> Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tei-council mailing list
>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
> --
> Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD
> Chair, Text Encoding Initiative
> Director, Digital Medievalist Project
> www.digitalmedievalist.org/>
> Associate Professor and Chair of English
> University of Lethbridge
> Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4
> Vox: +1 403 329 2378
> Fax: +1 403 382-7191
> Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
_______________________________________________
tei-council mailing list
tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
Received on Thu Mar 08 2007 - 07:59:40 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Fri Mar 9 04:39:22 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:39:22 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] TEI P5 trac server Message-ID: <45F12B4A.3080902@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2007 09:39:22 +0000
this has now moved to http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac/TEIP5,
instead of http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac.cgi
This lets me support multiple projects, and do it properly
with mod_python.
Shout at me if anything is not working
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Mar 09 2007 - 04:39:27 EST
From dporter at uky.edu Fri Mar 9 17:30:38 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:30:38 -0500 Subject: [tei-council] Hotels Message-ID: <96f3df640703091430u7574ace0pc0d52701431c6de5@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2007 17:30:38 -0500
Hi Everyone,
I've checked out the hotel list that Laurent sent and I'm drawn to the
Angleterre (http://www.gold-inn.de). Room charge for a single ranges
from 100-124 EUR (472 EUR for April 25-29), 10 EUR more per night for
a double. DSL connections in each room appear to be included in the
price. Breakfast is not included (15 EUR/day, which seems steep)
neither is the fitness area (9.50 EUR/day). 12 minute walk to the
BBAW. And it's cute!
http://www.gold-inn.de/angleterre/galerie_hotel.php
This is a good choice especially if you expect to take breakfast some
days outside the hotel, and/or if you don't exercise. So, this one is
my recommendation.
To the others...
******
The Albrechtshof and Allegra in Mitte both look nice, too
(http://www.hotel-albrechtshof.de/; http://www.hotel-allegra.de/). I
couldn't find anything on the websites about Internet access, I've
written messages to both and I'll report back what I find. I checked
the online booking system to see what the costs would be for April
25-29 and both claim to be unavailable. That seemed kind of strange so
I've contacted the hotels about that as well. Actually I don't have
much to say about these two until I hear back from them. 15 minute
walk to the BBAW.
The Dietrich-Bonhoeffer-Hotel (http://www.hotel-dbh.de/) is less
expensive but not as attractive as the first three. Room charge for a
single is 105 EUR, for a double 145 EUR. This includes Internet
connection and breakfast. The website is entirely in German which I
haven't studied in a long, long time, but I think I have the correct
information. The online booking system is not working. Pictures here:
http://www.dietrich-bonhoeffer-hotel.de/galerie.html. Short ride to
the BBAW.
The Hotel Gendarm is quite nice and private (only 21 rooms), but more
expensive at 135 EUR for a single and 160 EUR for double. Breakfast
buffet is 13 EUR; I've sent them a message asking about Internet
access. http://www.hotel-gendarm-berlin.de/. It's very close to the
BBAW, just a 4 minute walk.
On to the chains...
******
Mercure Checkpoint Charlie
(http://www.mercure.com/mercure/fichehotel/gb/mer/3120/fiche_hotel.shtml)
has both wifi access and highspeed Internet connections in the room,
though "extra charges may apply". Room rates range from 92-122 EUR for
a single (rate depends on whether you pay at time of booking or wait
until you get to the hotel). Breakfast is 16 EUR/day. Short ride to
the BBAW.
Hotel NH Berlin-Mitte is 124-134 EUR average per night for a single.
Wireless Internet is available in-room but it isn't clear whether an
extra cost is involved. Breakfast is 13 EUR/day. 8 minute walk to
BBAW.
Hotel Dorint Novotel Berlin Mitte (http://www.nh-hotels.com/) averages
139 EUR per night for a single. Wireless Internet is available but
watch for those extra charges. Breakfast is 15 EUR. 15 minute walk to
BBAW.
And finally...
*****
Then there is the Humboldt University guest housing
(http://www.ta.hu-berlin.de/index.php4?fd=502). These are small
apartments including small kitchens, ranging from 35 EUR for a single,
60 EUR for a double (sharing a bedroom), 25 EUR/person for a triple
(three bedrooms) and 30/35 EUR for a double (two bedrooms). The
multiple-bedroom apartments can only be shared by people of the same
gender. Breakfast is not included or available on-site. Short ride to
the BBAW.
Hope this information is helpful. I think I'll be booking at Angleterre.
Have a good weekend!
Dot
-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Mar 09 2007 - 17:30:42 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Mon Mar 12 13:30:16 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:30:16 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] TEI P5 trac server In-Reply-To: <45F12B4A.3080902@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1173724216.28369.69.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 12:30:16 -0600
Seems O.K.
I'd asked about whether we could just grab chapters for reviewing for
reference to DTDs and P4--I'm not sure if there was a policy, but I
assigned myself five for this week. Let me encourage others on council
to do the same so we can hit this deadline.
-dan
On Fri, 2007-09-03 at 09:39 +0000, Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> this has now moved to http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac/TEIP5,
> instead of http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac.cgi
>
> This lets me support multiple projects, and do it properly
> with mod_python.
>
> Shout at me if anything is not working
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Mar 12 2007 - 13:24:08 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Mon Mar 12 15:22:30 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:22:30 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] p5 release 0.6 Message-ID: <45F5B686.9010604@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 20:22:30 +0000
If any of you have some energy to look at http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Roma/,
you'll find it delivers a pre-release of 0.6. Please report any funnies
to me.
If you feel strong, you'll see that you can now specify a min
and max for the space-separated values of an attribute. Roma
supports this, but it is not much tested.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Mar 12 2007 - 15:22:39 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Mon Mar 12 21:54:15 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:54:15 +0800 Subject: [tei-council] facsimile odd In-Reply-To: <96f3df640702180908v42486cb5s71464fee18abe47a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F61257.7060801@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:54:15 +0800
Dot Porter wrote:
> I expect the hold up is on my end - I am supposed to be supplying
> sample texts to Conal so he can test the ODD (which is probably
> finished). I will get the testing materials to him this afternoon.
> Sorry for the hold up...
>
Dot, any news about this?
> Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>> Any sign?
>>
>> I added a ticket to trac about it.
>>
I can't find the ticket in trac, neither by looking at active tickets by
owner, nor by searching globally.
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Mar 12 2007 - 21:54:24 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Mon Mar 12 21:28:08 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:28:08 +0800 Subject: [tei-council] TEI P5 trac server In-Reply-To: <45F12B4A.3080902@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <45F60C38.3070000@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 10:28:08 +0800
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> this has now moved to http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac/TEIP5,
> Shout at me if anything is not working
Thanks, this works excellent, the response time is much better than the
previous version.
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Mar 12 2007 - 22:00:28 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Mon Mar 12 22:06:29 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:06:29 +0800 Subject: [tei-council] editing the guidelines Message-ID: <45F61535.6020405@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:06:29 +0800
Dear Council members,
The way we (the planning committee) are imaging changes necessary in the
proofreading and foolproofing process about to commence is that
1) Every Council member checks out a branch (P5-Council) from the SF
repository.
2) She then marks the Chapters she wants to work with in trac, and
3) goes about editing them in the working copy.
4) Occasionally, she commits this back to the repository.
5) When done, she does the last commit and ticks the ticket in trac off.
6) The editors look over this and merge the stuff with the trunk.

I would like to see if we can agree to this procedure and put it in
effect as soon as possible.
Comments welcome. Please speak up soon if you find problems with this
procedure, I would like to start using it after the telecon next week.
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Mar 12 2007 - 22:06:38 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Mon Mar 12 22:09:55 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:09:55 +0800 Subject: [tei-council] call for agenda items (cfa) for the teleconference next monday, march 19 at 1200 gmt Message-ID: <45F61603.9070804@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 11:09:55 +0800
Dear Council members,
another telecon is dragging closer, giving us an opportunity with
catching up on ourselves with regard to the various work items we are
obsessed with.
As usual, this is a wake-up call, please look at
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm28.xml?style=printable to find out what
work items assigned to you might yet be open.
Our main task on this telecon will again be the workplan for the next
months, this time we would try to iron out the procedures in a way that
we can start doing the necessary work immediately.
Before the conference, please look at the trac pages at
http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac/TEIP5/ and see if you find any flaws with
the overall plan, especially with respect for the timeline of items you
are involved with.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Mar 12 2007 - 22:10:04 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 13 04:50:54 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:50:54 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] facsimile odd In-Reply-To: <45F61257.7060801@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45F673FE.4070103@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 09:50:54 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
>
> I can't find the ticket in trac, neither by looking at active tickets
> by owner, nor by searching globally.
>
> Christian
>
http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/trac/TEIP5/ticket/291
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Mar 13 2007 - 04:51:02 EST
From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 13 13:58:56 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:58:56 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] editing the guidelines In-Reply-To: <45F61535.6020405@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <45F6F470.2090102@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 18:58:56 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
> 1) Every Council member checks out a branch (P5-Council) from the SF
> repository.
>
> 2) She then marks the Chapters she wants to work with in trac, and
>
> 3) goes about editing them in the working copy.
>
> 4) Occasionally, she commits this back to the repository.
>
> 5) When done, she does the last commit and ticks the ticket in trac off.
>
> 6) The editors look over this and merge the stuff with the trunk.
>
that's just how I imagined things would work.

-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Mar 13 2007 - 13:59:02 EST

From sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk Tue Mar 13 18:07:36 2007 From: sebastian.rahtz at oucs.ox.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:07:36 +0000 Subject: [tei-council] Hotels In-Reply-To: <96f3df640703091430u7574ace0pc0d52701431c6de5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F72EB8.5010302@oucs.ox.ac.uk>
From: Sebastian Rahtz
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 23:07:36 +0000
Just for the record, Lou and I are booked in the Angleterre for Wed,
Thur and Fri night;
arriving by train 8.30 am Wednesday. Both leaving after lunch
on Saturday (so allowing for an overrun on Saturday am if needed).
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Mar 13 2007 - 18:07:46 EST
From dporter at uky.edu Tue Mar 13 19:34:51 2007 From: dporter at uky.edu (Dot Porter) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:34:51 -0800 Subject: [tei-council] editing the guidelines In-Reply-To: <45F6F470.2090102@oucs.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <96f3df640703131734p4f3b6a7eqcede9a5a93bacbde@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dot Porter
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 16:34:51 -0800
In order to check out the P5-Council branch from the Subversion, it
looks like we need to be Developers - at least, I can get into SF and
view the SVN, but I can't check the branch out. It's also possible
that I just don't know what I'm doing. Can someone help, please?
Thanks,
Dot
On 3/13/07, Sebastian Rahtz ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> Christian Wittern wrote:
> > 1) Every Council member checks out a branch (P5-Council) from the SF
> > repository.
> >
> > 2) She then marks the Chapters she wants to work with in trac, and
> >
> > 3) goes about editing them in the working copy.
> >
> > 4) Occasionally, she commits this back to the repository.
> >
> > 5) When done, she does the last commit and ticks the ticket in trac off.
> >
> > 6) The editors look over this and merge the stuff with the trunk.
> >
> that's just how I imagined things would work.
>
>
> --
> Sebastian Rahtz
>
> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
>
> OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>

-- *************************************** Dot Porter, University of Kentucky ##### Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 ##### Editorial Assistant, REVEAL Project Center for Visualization and Virtual Environments porter_at_vis.uky.edu *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Mar 13 2007 - 19:34:54 EST

From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Tue Mar 13 19:50:03 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:50:03 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] editing the guidelines In-Reply-To: <96f3df640703131734p4f3b6a7eqcede9a5a93bacbde@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17911.18107.984674.355574@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:50:03 -0400
> In order to check out the P5-Council branch from the Subversion, it
> looks like we need to be Developers - at least, I can get into SF
> and view the SVN, but I can't check the branch out. It's also
> possible that I just don't know what I'm doing. Can someone help,
> please?
>From a Mac OS X or GNU/Linux commandline issue:
svn co https://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/tei/branches/P5-Council
and a new directory named "P5-Council/" will be crated and populated.
Checking in is a different story.

_______________________________________________
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Received on Tue Mar 13 2007 - 19:50:08 EST

From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Mar 15 13:35:02 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:35:02 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Test Message-ID: <1173983702.25173.15.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 12:35:02 -0600
I think this might be working now.
-dan
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Mar 15 2007 - 13:28:35 EST
From daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca Thu Mar 15 15:25:13 2007 From: daniel.odonnell at uleth.ca (Dan O'Donnell) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:25:13 -0600 Subject: [tei-council] Re: TEI Council: temporary mail list/ conformance draft In-Reply-To: <45F933C3.2050400@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp> Message-ID: <1173990313.3745.0.camel@odonned-eng06>
From: Dan O'Donnell
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 14:25:13 -0600
I'm guessing this is now an hour earlier (4 am, gulp, for me) for North
Americans due to the earlier DST?
-dan
On Thu, 2007-15-03 at 19:53 +0800, Christian Wittern wrote:
> Lou Burnard wrote:
> > Since we have a Council telecon scheduled for next week, and the
> > weekend is upon us, I've repurposed the tei-chars mailing list here as a
> > temporary substitute. All members of the council are now signed up to
> > this list, and should also be able to send mail to it.
>
> Thanks for taking care of this. I will be sending out the draft agenda
> tomorrow.
>
> > This enables me to announce that James has just delivered a preliminary
> > draft for the Conformance chapter of P5, which should be on our agenda
> > for next week. You can read the draft at
> >
> > http://www.tei-c.org/Council/conformance-draft.pdf
>
> Thanks to James as well.
>
> Christian
>
-- Daniel Paul O'Donnell, PhD Chair, Text Encoding Initiative Director, Digital Medievalist Project Associate Professor and Chair of English University of Lethbridge Lethbridge AB T1K 3M4 Vox: +1 403 329 2378 Fax: +1 403 382-7191 Homepage: http://people.uleth.ca/~daniel.odonnell/ _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Mar 15 2007 - 15:18:51 EST
From Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu Thu Mar 15 18:16:20 2007 From: Syd_Bauman at Brown.edu (Syd Bauman) Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:16:20 -0400 Subject: [tei-council] Berlin airports Message-ID: <17913.54212.273809.344367@emt.wwp.brown.edu>
From: Syd Bauman
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:16:20 -0400
Sorry if this has gone by and I've missed it --
* Which airport should we use, or does it matter?
* When & where are we expected to be on Wed 25 Apr?
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Received on Thu Mar 15 2007 - 18:16:24 EST
From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Fri Mar 16 03:16:53 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:16:53 +0800 Subject: [tei-council] Test In-Reply-To: <1173983702.25173.15.camel@odonned-eng06> Message-ID: <45FA5275.9060705@kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp>
From: Christian Wittern
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:16:53 +0800
Dan O'Donnell wrote:
> I think this might be working now.
>
It does. Thanks for clearing the roadblock.
Christian

-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Mar 16 2007 - 03:43:40 EST

From wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp Fri Mar 16 03:18:59 2007 From: wittern at kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp (Christian Wittern) Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2007 16:18:59 +0800 Subject: [tei-council] DRAFT Agenda for the TEI Council teleconference on January 23, 2007 at 1200 UTC Message-ID: <45FA52F3