Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 09:00:00 +0900
"Lou's Laptop"
>>* SO W 09 "Basic working decisions on pointing and linking"
>> http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/SO/sow09.xml?style=printable
>> Last updated Sat, 02 Oct 04
>> On or about its conference call of 2004-03-29, Council requested
>> that the WG (i.e., DD) produce a summary document of its decisions
>> and recommendations so far, particularly in the area of XML's
>> ID/IDREF mechanism and W3C's XPointer Framework. This is that
>> summary document.
>>
>>
>>
> Did council ever discuss this document? I can't remember. We;ve been
> merrily proceeding on the assumption that it has both discussed and
> endorsed it, so I hope it did!
We discussed this paper in Ghent, Mai 2004 and again in a call that
fall, where we requested some changes, and those were incorporated
into that document now, me thinks. Do you think there are issues that
need our attention?
Happy New Year to everybody,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 02 2006 - 19:00:07 EST
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 14:54:45 +0000
In the upcoming release of TEI P5, the global attributes rend and n have
a declared datatype of data.words, which in turn maps to
list{data.word}. with data.word being defined as
xsd:token { pattern = "(\p{L}|\p{N}|\p{P}|\p{S})+" }
The effect of this definition seems to be that dots are not permitted,
which seems more than a little strange, particularly for attributes like
n, which may quite reasonably be expected to have values such as "1.3.4"
Suggestions?
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Received on Thu Jan 05 2006 - 09:48:08 EST
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 11:11:05 -0500
> In the upcoming release of TEI P5, the global attributes rend and n
> have a declared datatype of data.words, which in turn maps to
> list{data.word}. with data.word being defined as
> xsd:token { pattern = "(\p{L}|\p{N}|\p{P}|\p{S})+" }
> The effect of this definition seems to be that dots are not
> permitted, which seems more than a little strange, particularly for
> attributes like n, which may quite reasonably be expected to have
> values such as "1.3.4"
I'm suspicious that the dots are permitted, and that this is just a
bug in nxml-mode. Period (U+002E) is a member of Unicode class "Po"
(punctuation, other), and therefore should be matched by the "\p{P}"
part of the pattern above. A quick test shows that jing, rnv, and
xmllint all think that period (".") comma (",") and semicolon (";")
all match the pattern "\p{P}". nxml-mode things they do not, however.
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Received on Thu Jan 05 2006 - 11:11:14 EST
Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 23:52:28 +0000
A substantially revised version of chapter ST (the one formerly known as
"Structure of the TEI DTD" but now renamed "The TEI Infrastructure") is
now available from the CVS server. It still needs a bit of work here and
there, notably in the section which lists available element classes, but
it is now definitely readable. I would much appreciate any comments and
suggestions for improvement.
For the benefit of those who haven't got round to installing all the
bits and pieces you need to work with the CVS version, I've put a copy
of the HTML version on the website at www.tei-c.org/Drafts/ST-draft.html
: note however that this just contains the text of the chapter, so most
of the links in it are broken.
Lou
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Received on Sun Jan 08 2006 - 18:53:31 EST
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 17:47:17 +0000
As discussed at the last Council telecon, Christian and I have now
drafted a charge for the "personography" TEI activity, which we have
also discussed with Matthew Driscoll.
Council is requested to review and approve the document, which is now
available at http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/PERS/persw01.xml
Matthew reports that he has already set a student (Eva Wedervang Jensen)
to work on part of the work and that she has already nearly finished
a review of the following: EAC (Encoded Archival Context), HEML, epiDoc,
various genealogists (http://xml.coverpages.org/genealogy.html and
references there), MODS, METS and NOMEN.
I am sure he would appreciate suggestions for any other schemas which
should be investigated.
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Received on Tue Jan 10 2006 - 12:39:08 EST
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:27:14 -0500
Lou,
I've reviewed the document, and it looks good. It has my vote for
approval.
John
-- | John A. Walsh | Associate Director for Projects and Services, Digital Library Program | Associate Librarian, University Libraries | Adjunct Associate Professor, Department of English | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | Voice:812-855-8758 Fax:812-856-2062
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 13:35:53 -0500
I second. It looks like a good plan, and I have no other metadata
standards to suggest.
Dot
On 1/10/06, John A. Walsh
> Lou,
>
> I've reviewed the document, and it looks good. It has my vote for
> approval.
>
> John
> --
> | John A. Walsh
> | Associate Director for Projects and Services, Digital Library Program
> | Associate Librarian, University Libraries
> | Adjunct Associate Professor, Department of English
> | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405
> | Voice:812-855-8758 Fax:812-856-2062
>
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2006, at 12:47 PM, Lou Burnard wrote:
>
> > As discussed at the last Council telecon, Christian and I have now
> > drafted a charge for the "personography" TEI activity, which we
> > have also discussed with Matthew Driscoll.
> >
> > Council is requested to review and approve the document, which is
> > now available at http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/PERS/persw01.xml
> >
> > Matthew reports that he has already set a student (Eva Wedervang
> > Jensen) to work on part of the work and that she has already
> > nearly finished
> > a review of the following: EAC (Encoded Archival Context), HEML,
> > epiDoc, various genealogists (http://xml.coverpages.org/
> > genealogy.html and references there), MODS, METS and NOMEN.
> >
> > I am sure he would appreciate suggestions for any other schemas
> > which should be investigated.
> > _______________________________________________
> > tei-council mailing list
> > tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
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>
-- *************************************** Dot Porter, Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities University of Kentucky 351 William T. Young Library Lexington, KY 40506 dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 10 2006 - 13:35:59 EST
Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 20:30:10 -0500
looks very impressive Matthew and Lou --
usan
Lou Burnard wrote:
> As discussed at the last Council telecon, Christian and I have now
> drafted a charge for the "personography" TEI activity, which we have
> also discussed with Matthew Driscoll.
>
> Council is requested to review and approve the document, which is now
> available at http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/PERS/persw01.xml
>
> Matthew reports that he has already set a student (Eva Wedervang
> Jensen) to work on part of the work and that she has already nearly
> finished
> a review of the following: EAC (Encoded Archival Context), HEML,
> epiDoc, various genealogists (http://xml.coverpages.org/genealogy.html
> and references there), MODS, METS and NOMEN.
>
> I am sure he would appreciate suggestions for any other schemas which
> should be investigated.
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
-- Susan Schreibman, PhD Assistant Dean Head of Digital Collections and Research McKeldin Library University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Phone: 301 314 0358 Fax: 301 314 9408 Email: sschreib_at_umd.edu _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Jan 10 2006 - 20:30:19 EST
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:25:31 +0900
Dear Council members,
At a recent internal meeting, I got the go-ahead and basic budget
approval for a meeting to be held in conjunction with the TEI Council
meeting in Kyoto.
The idea is as follows: From an ongoing grant we will support travel
and stay for 5 Council members by inviting them to participate in an
open workshop that is to be held the day before the Council meeting.
I hope to organize this in a way that is both productive for the
Council itself, but has also some appeal to people interested in TEI
generally. The catch is that we will need to have the papers
available for publication in the reports for our grant, so it should
be a bit more than just some powerpoint slides. What I have in mind
is *not* a training session, but rather something similar to the type
of presentations we had in members meetings so far. While I imagine
that all council members would be interested in presenting at this
workshop, I would like to reserve the right to solicit papers and
suggest topics that seem to fit best with the local interests we have
here.
At the moment, I would like to see something like the following:
New Zealand Text Archive -- TEI, Topicmaps, MADS, CIDOC... Conan
TEI Internationalization -- state of the project, examples, etc. Sebastian
Personography -- Report on the efforts of the WG etc. Matthew
P5 News -- Report on the recent developments etc.etc. Lou or Syd
--?
So there is still one slot open, suggestions welcome, also on the
slots filled.
Now, I would like to here from council members, if this looks like a
good plan. And of course I need word from those mentioned above if
they would be willing to participate.
Next, we need to look at the dates. I would propose to hold the
workshop the day before the Council meeting. That way, it can also
function as an update and preparation for our meeting itself. If we
stay with Thursday/Friday for the Council meeting, this would mean to
hold the workshop on the preceding Wednesday, for example May 17 or
May 24 followed by Council meeting on May 18/19 or 25/26.
Please comment on the possibility of this according to your schedule.
To get going with the preparations, we would need to fix the dates
pretty soon.
All the best -- looking forward to welcome you all here in Kyoto!
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Jan 14 2006 - 07:25:38 EST
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:12:03 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
>At a recent internal meeting, I got the go-ahead and basic budget
>approval for a meeting to be held in conjunction with the TEI Council
>meeting in Kyoto.
>
>
excellent!
>The idea is as follows: From an ongoing grant we will support travel
>and stay for 5 Council members by inviting them to participate in an
>open workshop that is to be held the day before the Council meeting.
>
>
sounds perfect to me
>New Zealand Text Archive -- TEI, Topicmaps, MADS, CIDOC... Conan
>
>TEI Internationalization -- state of the project, examples, etc. Sebastian
>
>Personography -- Report on the efforts of the WG etc. Matthew
>
>P5 News -- Report on the recent developments etc.etc. Lou or Syd
>
>
I wonder whether something more focussed than "P5 News" might not
be sensible? after all, personography and I18N are P5 News anyway.
but you know best what the locals would most likely
respond to.
for another talk, maybe you and James could expound
on eXist and XQuery and the like in the TEI context?
>hold the workshop on the preceding Wednesday, for example May 17 or
>May 24 followed by Council meeting on May 18/19 or 25/26.
>
>
I'd prefer the May 17/18/19, but could do the week after too.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Jan 14 2006 - 09:12:38 EST
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:29:08 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> for another talk, maybe you and James could expound
> on eXist and XQuery and the like in the TEI context?
I've sent Christian some other suggestions as well off-list, but would
happily do so.
>> hold the workshop on the preceding Wednesday, for example May 17 or
>> May 24 followed by Council meeting on May 18/19 or 25/26.
>>
> I'd prefer the May 17/18/19, but could do the week after too.
Either are fine for me.
-James
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Received on Sat Jan 14 2006 - 09:29:04 EST
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 15:52:57 +0000
This is great news... I think the idea of a pre-meeting set of
presentations would be fine, though we do need to tie down the topics a
bit carefully to avoid duplication. Speaking for myself, I'd be happy to
speak on either the overall organization and content of P5 (what it is,
why it is different from P4, and how you can do cool things with it) or
on a more focussed specific topic (e.g. using TEI P5 to mark up and
exploit language corpora; manuscript materials; literary texts; whatever)
Assuming that others agree, the onlyheadache I perceive immediately will
be the dates. LREC, the major European conference on language resources,
runs from 23-27 May and I am already committed to attend it, as is
Laurent. So the earlier week would be far preferable.
Many thanks for this opportunity, Chris!
Next, we need to look at the dates. I would propose to hold the
> workshop the day before the Council meeting. That way, it can also
> function as an update and preparation for our meeting itself. If we
> stay with Thursday/Friday for the Council meeting, this would mean to
> hold the workshop on the preceding Wednesday, for example May 17 or
> May 24 followed by Council meeting on May 18/19 or 25/26.
>
> Please comment on the possibility of this according to your schedule.
> To get going with the preparations, we would need to fix the dates
> pretty soon.
>
> All the best -- looking forward to welcome you all here in Kyoto!
>
> Christian
>
>
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Received on Sat Jan 14 2006 - 10:52:52 EST
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 17:51:29 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz
>>
>>P5 News -- Report on the recent developments etc.etc. Lou or Syd
>>
>>
> I wonder whether something more focussed than "P5 News" might not
> be sensible? after all, personography and I18N are P5 News anyway.
Right. I was jotting this down while our youngest wanted my help
making him falling asleep (I am very good at that), so did not spell
it out carefully. Please consider "P5 News" for the moment just to be
a generic placeholder for a P5 slot, which hopefully the editors will
fill with substance.
>
> but you know best what the locals would most likely
> respond to.
>
> for another talk, maybe you and James could expound
> on eXist and XQuery and the like in the TEI context?
Yeah, that sounds quite interesting.
>
>>hold the workshop on the preceding Wednesday, for example May 17 or
>> May 24 followed by Council meeting on May 18/19 or 25/26.
>>
> I'd prefer the May 17/18/19, but could do the week after too.
It looks like this is the more likely contender then.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Jan 15 2006 - 03:51:35 EST
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 10:17:44 -0500
I agree with what has been written -- fabulous news Christian. Either
dates are fine with me. And please do let the rest of us know if we can
do anything in support of the public symposium. I wonder if we might
have a poster sessions in which all of us can demo projects we are
working on utilizing the TEI, and which would allow for more informal
interaction with those attending the symposium.
usan
Lou Burnard wrote:
> This is great news... I think the idea of a pre-meeting set of
> presentations would be fine, though we do need to tie down the topics
> a bit carefully to avoid duplication. Speaking for myself, I'd be
> happy to speak on either the overall organization and content of P5
> (what it is, why it is different from P4, and how you can do cool
> things with it) or on a more focussed specific topic (e.g. using TEI
> P5 to mark up and exploit language corpora; manuscript materials;
> literary texts; whatever)
>
> Assuming that others agree, the onlyheadache I perceive immediately
> will be the dates. LREC, the major European conference on language
> resources, runs from 23-27 May and I am already committed to attend
> it, as is Laurent. So the earlier week would be far preferable.
>
> Many thanks for this opportunity, Chris!
>
>
> Next, we need to look at the dates. I would propose to hold the
>
>> workshop the day before the Council meeting. That way, it can also
>> function as an update and preparation for our meeting itself. If we
>> stay with Thursday/Friday for the Council meeting, this would mean to
>> hold the workshop on the preceding Wednesday, for example May 17 or
>> May 24 followed by Council meeting on May 18/19 or 25/26.
>> Please comment on the possibility of this according to your schedule.
>> To get going with the preparations, we would need to fix the dates
>> pretty soon.
>>
>> All the best -- looking forward to welcome you all here in Kyoto!
>>
>> Christian
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
-- Susan Schreibman, PhD Assistant Dean Head of Digital Collections and Research McKeldin Library University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 Phone: 301 314 0358 Fax: 301 314 9408 Email: sschreib_at_umd.edu _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Jan 16 2006 - 10:17:45 EST
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 22:55:55 +0000
Just a gentle reminder that some sort of feedback from council members
on the completely rewritten "TEI Infrastructure" chapter would be much
appreciated. The plan is to get a new release of P5 out before the end
of the month, so now would be a good time to provide it.
Here's the note I sent on the 8th again:
A substantially revised version of chapter ST (the one formerly known as
"Structure of the TEI DTD" but now renamed "The TEI Infrastructure") is
now available from the CVS server. It still needs a bit of work here and
there, notably in the section which lists available element classes, but
it is now definitely readable. I would much appreciate any comments and
suggestions for improvement.
For the benefit of those who haven't got round to installing all the
bits and pieces you need to work with the CVS version, I've put a copy
of the HTML version on the website at www.tei-c.org/Drafts/ST-draft.html
: note however that this just contains the text of the chapter, so most
of the links in it are broken.
Lou
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Received on Mon Jan 16 2006 - 17:57:19 EST
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:48:41 +0800
Dear Lou,
Thanks for the gentle reminder. I now looked at the chapter in some
more detail and can only say, this looks like we completed a major
milestone towards P5. We not only got the class structure nailed down
to a significant degree, but with this reference it should be pretty
straightforward to do the rest.
This chapter also firmly establish that P5 still supports the old DTD
extension mechanism and even SGML DTDs, which is propably a good
thing.
I did not spot any showstoppers in the text of the draft.
All the best,
Christian
"Lou's Laptop"
> Just a gentle reminder that some sort of feedback from council members
> on the completely rewritten "TEI Infrastructure" chapter would be much
> appreciated. The plan is to get a new release of P5 out before the
> end of the month, so now would be a good time to provide it.
>
> Here's the note I sent on the 8th again:
>
> A substantially revised version of chapter ST (the one formerly known
> as "Structure of the TEI DTD" but now renamed "The TEI
> Infrastructure") is now available from the CVS server. It still needs
> a bit of work here and there, notably in the section which lists
> available element classes, but it is now definitely readable. I would
> much appreciate any comments and suggestions for improvement.
>
> For the benefit of those who haven't got round to installing all the
> bits and pieces you need to work with the CVS version, I've put a copy
> of the HTML version on the website at
> www.tei-c.org/Drafts/ST-draft.html : note however that this just
> contains the text of the chapter, so most of the links in it are
> broken.
>
> Lou
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
>
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Tue Jan 17 2006 - 06:49:09 EST
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:13:58 +0000
I looked at this today, and found it refreshing. Nice and truthful, and
helpful.
My main concern was the enormous range it covers, ranging from
- the TEI has modules
- these are our datatypes
- here are some examples of using xml:lang
I know the Guidelines are a reference book, not a novel, but
this is hard to read.
I'd like to see two chapters
a) this is how the TEI works, as a set of modules; this is how you use
these modules in anger
b) global facilities: attributes, datatypes, classes
I think the Guidelines can only benefit from shorter more focussed chapters.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 18 2006 - 16:14:48 EST
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:10:57 +0800
Christian Wittern
> Next, we need to look at the dates. I would propose to hold the
> workshop the day before the Council meeting. That way, it can also
> function as an update and preparation for our meeting itself. If we
> stay with Thursday/Friday for the Council meeting, this would mean to
> hold the workshop on the preceding Wednesday, for example May 17 or
> May 24 followed by Council meeting on May 18/19 or 25/26.
>From the feedback I got so far I deduce a preference for the earlier
date, that is May 17-19. So I would like to settle on these dates,
please put them in your schedules.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Jan 18 2006 - 19:11:02 EST
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:22:50 -0500
I would like to second Susan's suggestion for a poster session.
Dot
On 1/16/06, Susan Schreibman
> I agree with what has been written -- fabulous news Christian. Either
> dates are fine with me. And please do let the rest of us know if we can
> do anything in support of the public symposium. I wonder if we might
> have a poster sessions in which all of us can demo projects we are
> working on utilizing the TEI, and which would allow for more informal
> interaction with those attending the symposium.
>
> susan
>
>
> Lou Burnard wrote:
>
> > This is great news... I think the idea of a pre-meeting set of
> > presentations would be fine, though we do need to tie down the topics
> > a bit carefully to avoid duplication. Speaking for myself, I'd be
> > happy to speak on either the overall organization and content of P5
> > (what it is, why it is different from P4, and how you can do cool
> > things with it) or on a more focussed specific topic (e.g. using TEI
> > P5 to mark up and exploit language corpora; manuscript materials;
> > literary texts; whatever)
> >
> > Assuming that others agree, the onlyheadache I perceive immediately
> > will be the dates. LREC, the major European conference on language
> > resources, runs from 23-27 May and I am already committed to attend
> > it, as is Laurent. So the earlier week would be far preferable.
> >
> > Many thanks for this opportunity, Chris!
> >
> >
> > Next, we need to look at the dates. I would propose to hold the
> >
> >> workshop the day before the Council meeting. That way, it can also
> >> function as an update and preparation for our meeting itself. If we
> >> stay with Thursday/Friday for the Council meeting, this would mean to
> >> hold the workshop on the preceding Wednesday, for example May 17 or
> >> May 24 followed by Council meeting on May 18/19 or 25/26.
> >> Please comment on the possibility of this according to your schedule.
> >> To get going with the preparations, we would need to fix the dates
> >> pretty soon.
> >>
> >> All the best -- looking forward to welcome you all here in Kyoto!
> >>
> >> Christian
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > tei-council mailing list
> > tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
>
> --
> Susan Schreibman, PhD
> Assistant Dean
> Head of Digital Collections and Research
> McKeldin Library
> University of Maryland
> College Park, MD 20742
>
> Phone: 301 314 0358
> Fax: 301 314 9408
> Email: sschreib_at_umd.edu
>
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>
-- *************************************** Dot Porter, Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities University of Kentucky 351 William T. Young Library Lexington, KY 40506 dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 19 2006 - 11:22:57 EST
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 07:41:43 +0800
Dot Porter
> I would like to second Susan's suggestion for a poster session.
>
> Dot
>
> On 1/16/06, Susan Schreibman
>> I agree with what has been written -- fabulous news Christian. Either
>> dates are fine with me. And please do let the rest of us know if we can
>> do anything in support of the public symposium. I wonder if we might
>> have a poster sessions in which all of us can demo projects we are
>> working on utilizing the TEI, and which would allow for more informal
>> interaction with those attending the symposium.
I like the idea and am thinking about it right now. I will get back
with a more thoroughly thought through plan in a while, probably at
the beginning of February.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 19 2006 - 18:42:02 EST
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:39:42 +0000
I'd like to make a significant new release of P5 in about 10 days.
To the best of my knowledge, P5 as of today is stable, passes all
its internal tests, generates its outputs etc; and it has enough
noticeable changes to justify a release.
So, this is like the banns before a wedding: does anyone have
a reason why a new release should not be made now? Please,
all consider your consciences, and decide whether you are
going to make any contribution of any kind to P5 in the next
few days which should be in the release.
Lou/Syd, can you write a "release notes" saying what is
significantly changed?
Sebastian
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Received on Fri Jan 20 2006 - 09:39:54 EST
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:18:59 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> I'd like to see two chapters
>
> a) this is how the TEI works, as a set of modules; this is how you use
> these modules in anger
>
> b) global facilities: attributes, datatypes, classes
>
> I think the Guidelines can only benefit from shorter more focussed
> chapters.
Lou,
I've finally had a chance to read this as well and would start by echoing
Sebastian's comments. Specifically I think 3.3 (Global Attributes) and 3.5
(Datatypes) could be moved to another place (whether another chapter, a chapter
of their own or at worst to just after 3.7). I'm less bothered about moving the
discussion of the Class System (3.6) but if, as Sebastian suggests this was
separated into a separate chapter, then it would make sense.
Other comments that occurred to me as I read:
- The second and third paragraph are some of the most important in the chapter
for users trying to understand the whole infrastructure and how it works.
Although the Guidelines seem to be positively anti-diagrams, I think that some
form of structural diagram or image which explains the relationship between TEI,
schemas, modules (core and otherwise), classes, macros, datatypes, elements and
attributes, would really help at this point. I can't think of what such a
diagram would look like, but it would form a good reference for inexperienced
users to look back on while reading the chapter. ("So this is a 'macro', what
was one of those again?"...look at diagram..."oh yeah.")
3.1 - terminology module doesn't appear to be defined anywhere in the list of them
3.2 p[2]: "As previously noted, the TEI provides an application independent way
of specifying the components of a TEI schema by means of the
element defined in..." Erm, it hasn't been previously noted in this chapter
that one can do it with the
sentence to me makes it sound like you've already described how to use this
element to do so (which is just coming up). Perhaps "TEI schema. This is done
by means of..."
3.2 p[2]: For some reason the sentence "A running XML system, such as a
validating editor, may use this specification in several different ways:"
bothers me. Firstly, the 'running XML system'... although correct and less
problematic than 'application' still seems confusing to the novice user.
Secondly, the validating editor isn't producing the schemas mentioned in the
list which follows, so the first point seems confusing.
3.2 DOCTYPE example: Is the dtd for TEI P5 really going to be called tei2.dtd?
If so, why?!
3.2 3rd list Second list item "a definition of composite texts which comprise
front matter, a group or several possible nested groups of collected texts,
themselves possibly composite..." Should mention of back matter be made here
(since front matter is mentioned).
3.3 Mention of 'TEIform' even though it isn't in the list of att.global being
discussed.
3.4 Elements defined: ____ (Blank). Are there no elements defined in the tei
module available to all TEI modules, or is it that this chapter is defining
these or some such and so at this point they aren't yet defined? If the latter
then this needs to be faked then to produce an actual list of elements defined
in the 'tei' module which are available to all TEI modules.
3.6 p[1] "A class is known as an attribute class if its members share attributes
, and as an model class if its members appear at the same locations in the
content models of other TEI elements." 1) Should that be 'a model class'? 2)
This is a confusing description of what a model class is, the explanation from
3.6.2 is much more understandable!
3.6.3 All the model.nameLike=notAllowed ... although you have explained
notAllowed way back in 3.4, it would be really helpful to see the default of
what should be allowed even if it hasn't been declared at this point. (i.e.
what is the point of telling a novice user "model.nameLike = notAllowed" or
"model.phrase = notAllowed" it isn't really helpful to them.
3.8 Any benefit in hiving off DTD-specific mechanisms discussion to a separate
location?
Hope that is of any help,
-James
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Received on Fri Jan 20 2006 - 12:19:12 EST
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:31:15 +0000
James Cummings wrote:
> I can't think of what such a
> diagram would look like,
no more can I. But I also like the idea
of alternative graphical explanations alongside
the Gibbonesque prose
>
> 3.4 Elements defined: ____ (Blank). Are there no elements defined in the tei
> module available to all TEI modules
no. this is correct. I have corrected the XSLT to omit such emptiness
>
> 3.6.3 All the model.nameLike=notAllowed ... although you have explained
> notAllowed way back in 3.4, it would be really helpful to see the default of
> what should be allowed even if it hasn't been declared at this point. (i.e.
> what is the point of telling a novice user "model.nameLike = notAllowed" or
> "model.phrase = notAllowed" it isn't really helpful to them.
catered for in revised stylesheets. you now get a list of members
>
> 3.8 Any benefit in hiving off DTD-specific mechanisms discussion to a separate
> location?
I'd vote against....
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
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Received on Fri Jan 20 2006 - 12:32:09 EST
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 22:20:12 -0500
Naive question as the new chair. Do I attend these meetings? I don't
need my arm twisted to come to Kyoto and the 17,18,19 work for me,
but I didn't want to assume I was to come!
Matt
On Jan 19, 2006, at 6:41 PM, Christian Wittern wrote:
> Dot Porter
>
>> I would like to second Susan's suggestion for a poster session.
>>
>> Dot
>>
>> On 1/16/06, Susan Schreibman
>>> I agree with what has been written -- fabulous news Christian.
>>> Either
>>> dates are fine with me. And please do let the rest of us know if
>>> we can
>>> do anything in support of the public symposium. I wonder if we might
>>> have a poster sessions in which all of us can demo projects we are
>>> working on utilizing the TEI, and which would allow for more
>>> informal
>>> interaction with those attending the symposium.
>
> I like the idea and am thinking about it right now. I will get back
> with a more thoroughly thought through plan in a while, probably at
> the beginning of February.
>
> All the best,
>
> Christian
>
>
> --
>
> Christian Wittern
> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
> 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
MZ
_________________
Matthew Zimmerman
Faculty Technology Services, NYU
Tel: 212.998.3038
Fax: 212.995.4120
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Received on Wed Jan 25 2006 - 22:19:57 EST
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 17:32:55 +0900
Matthew Zimmerman
> Naive question as the new chair. Do I attend these meetings? I don't
> need my arm twisted to come to Kyoto and the 17,18,19 work for me,
> but I didn't want to assume I was to come!
The bylaws under 6.2.2. say the following:
"... The TEI-C Council membership shall include the Chair of the TEI-C
Board of Directors and one other member, and may include such other
Directors or members as designated by the Board of Directors. ..."
This makes you a member of the Council and you are thus expected to
show up at meetings.
See you in Kyoto!
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 26 2006 - 03:33:31 EST
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 22:41:50 +0000
I would like to issue a P5 release before the end of the month.
That gives us just a few more days to fix any problems.
If anyone has got any gripes at all about the current
state of P5, air them now!
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Jan 26 2006 - 17:42:58 EST
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:18:09 +0000
The recent straying of posts from tei-board onto tei-l reminded me that I have
meant for awhile to propose that the tei-council mailing list archives be made
publicly available.
I believe that currently only subscribers are allowed access to them. We do not
tend to say anything that we wouldn't mind others reading. It would allow those
running for council to get an idea of the work that the council does. Moreover,
it would allow those who have contributed to council work (but whose terms have
ended) to continue to follow-up issues which interested them. Also, it would
have the side benefit of allowing us to provide a link to discussions on a
particular item when someone asks how/why something was decided.
I would not recommend this for tei-board however, since I _assume_ they must
discuss potentially confidential issues.
Does anyone else have strong feelings for or against this?
-James
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Received on Fri Jan 27 2006 - 06:18:13 EST
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 11:47:05 +0000
I strongly support this suggestion. I see no reason why the Council's
deliberations should be private and every reason why they should not.
L
James Cummings wrote:
> The recent straying of posts from tei-board onto tei-l reminded me that I have
> meant for awhile to propose that the tei-council mailing list archives be made
> publicly available.
>
> I believe that currently only subscribers are allowed access to them. We do not
> tend to say anything that we wouldn't mind others reading. It would allow those
> running for council to get an idea of the work that the council does. Moreover,
> it would allow those who have contributed to council work (but whose terms have
> ended) to continue to follow-up issues which interested them. Also, it would
> have the side benefit of allowing us to provide a link to discussions on a
> particular item when someone asks how/why something was decided.
>
> I would not recommend this for tei-board however, since I _assume_ they must
> discuss potentially confidential issues.
>
> Does anyone else have strong feelings for or against this?
>
> -James
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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Received on Fri Jan 27 2006 - 06:38:00 EST
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:21:58 -0500
I agree that tei-council mailing list archives should be publicly
available. I can see why tei-board, which oft has to do with
fundraising, perhaps should be private. But the mailing list of the
publicly elected people who are responsible for the publicly
developed Guidelines which are intended for public coonsumption
should be public, IMHO.
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Received on Fri Jan 27 2006 - 13:22:07 EST
Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2006 14:27:03 +0900
James Cummings
> The recent straying of posts from tei-board onto tei-l reminded me that I have
> meant for awhile to propose that the tei-council mailing list archives be made
> publicly available.
That seems to be a good idea to me as well. If no objections are
raised in the nex few days on this list, I will ask Daniel Pitti to
see that the necessary changes are made.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Jan 28 2006 - 00:27:09 EST
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:32:39 -0500
I've just posted an XSLT 1.0 stylesheet to the TEI wiki that provides
a template for transforming a P4-style
P5-style
fine for the little project I was working on.
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Received on Tue Jan 31 2006 - 16:32:48 EST
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:35:38 -0500
[Sorry -- hit "send" too soon.]
I've just posted an XSLT 1.0 stylesheet to the TEI wiki that provides
a template for transforming a P4-style
P5-style
fine for the little project I was working on.
http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Change2change.xslt
[Primarily for James --]
I've been thinking that the stylesheets should be divvied up more
logically than XSLT 1 vs 2 and by first letter of the name. Perhaps
categorized by expected input as the primary division?
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Received on Tue Jan 31 2006 - 16:35:48 EST
Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 01:02:14 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> [Sorry -- hit "send" too soon.]
>
> I've just posted an XSLT 1.0 stylesheet to the TEI wiki that provides
> a template for transforming a P4-style
> P5-style
> fine for the little project I was working on.
>
> http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Change2change.xslt
Just a note that for the time being we should always give the .org.uk
form of the above. When one uses the *.org/wiki/ the apache
passthrough proxy makes it look like your IP address is that of the
Virginia Server 128.143.22.122 (jefferson.village.virginia.edu). Th
problem with this is that it is impossible to ban spammers using this
IP address without banning everyone else who might come via
*.org/wiki. This is why the link on the www.tei-c.org navbar has been
changed to the UK version. Unless viriginia takes over the hosting of
the mediawiki wiki, then we should always give the org.uk form for now
when referring to the wiki.
> [Primarily for James --]
> I've been thinking that the stylesheets should be divvied up more
> logically than XSLT 1 vs 2 and by first letter of the name. Perhaps
> categorized by expected input as the primary division?
Yeah, the way it has been categorized has always bothered me a bit.
I'm less bothered about whether a script is XSLT1 or XSLT2. I'm also
wary of over categorisation. I think I'd prefer just very descriptive
names, all categorised alphabetically together, and then more
description on the page about expected input/output/etc. If we get
over 50 stylesheets (there are currently 15) then maybe some more
categorisation would be necessary.
-James
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Received on Tue Jan 31 2006 - 20:02:14 EST
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 14:59:14 +0000
Agents of the Front for Abolition of Numbered Divs have brain-washed me
into believing that the P5-conformant version of TEI Lite I am currently
working on should make no reference to numbered divs.
How much of a ruckus do we think this little revision might cause?
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Received on Sat Feb 04 2006 - 10:02:18 EST
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 16:35:31 +0100
Changing numbered divs to un-numbered divs is a very easy transformation
(by means of XSLT, or even some Find&Replace macro).
Nowadays, markup is no longer written by hand (I hope), and hence, not so
dependent on hints like div numbers. With modern editors, tags are chosen
from a DTD-guided menu (as in XMetaL). With features like on-screen tag
collapsing, or tree-structure views, which modern editors have nowadays,
the nesting and number of divs can be easily seen and controlled, even
without the numbers. The advantages of numbered divs were more
user-oriented than process-related, so they may not be missed so much now
by encoders.
There will be complaints anyway. Call it human nature...
The only practical automatism that I can think of is limiting the number of
nested divs at a DTD level, which could be easily done with the numbered
divs. However, an XSLT script can easily perform this type of additional
validation, if required.
I think it may be time now to get rid of numbered divs, which is an
important simplification to TEI. With this, the problem of whether the
highest level division should be a div0 or a div1 would also disappear.
Eliminating divs would also improve document exchange.
XML itself appeared as a simplification to SGML. Them we could experience
that a more constrained environment (XML) was both easier to use and better
for processing purposes. In this case, reducing the options to only
un-numbered divs may have the same beneficial effect.
higher constraints = higher predictability = easier programming
This type of simplifications are usually good...
Alex.-
At 15:59 04/02/2006, Lou's Laptop wrote:
>Agents of the Front for Abolition of Numbered Divs have brain-washed me
>into believing that the P5-conformant version of TEI Lite I am currently
>working on should make no reference to numbered divs.
>
>How much of a ruckus do we think this little revision might cause?
>
>
>_______________________________________________
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---------------------------------------------------------
ALEJANDRO BIA
e-mail: abia_at_umh.es
Departamento de Estad?stica, Matem?tica e Inform?tica
Centro de Investigaci?n Operativa
Universidad Miguel Hern?ndez
Edificio Torretamarit
Avenida de la Universidad s/n, E-03202, Elche, ESPA?A
http://www.umh.es/
Tel: +34 966658542
Fax: +34 966658715
Tel?fono m?vil: +34 610806427
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Received on Sat Feb 04 2006 - 10:36:04 EST
Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 11:44:40 -0500
> There will be complaints anyway. Call it human nature...
A lot of complaints. Nonetheless, and even though I am not at all
sure that I support FANDs efforts to remove numbered
entirely (given the empty-class solution is so much better from a
user perspective), I think it is probably a good idea to knock
numbered
light.
And if some stalwart reactionary numbered-div supporting ideologue
wants to create a TEI-N-Lite that has 'em, it will be trivial for him
or her to do so.
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Received on Sat Feb 04 2006 - 11:44:50 EST
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 16:52:19 +0000
Lou's Laptop wrote:
> Agents of the Front for Abolition of Numbered Divs have brain-washed me
> into believing that the P5-conformant version of TEI Lite I am currently
> working on should make no reference to numbered divs.
>
> How much of a ruckus do we think this little revision might cause?
Its a bit (on a minute scale) like the cartoons thing
in the news. That is to say, people should be understanding
and be prepared to accept cultural differences. In practice,
it seems like needless provocation......
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sat Feb 04 2006 - 11:53:29 EST
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 19:57:07 +0000
Alejandro Bia wrote:
> Changing numbered divs to un-numbered divs is a very easy transformation
> (by means of XSLT, or even some Find&Replace macro).
Of course the the opposite is also true. It is almost as easy to change
un-numbered divs into numbers divs.
> Nowadays, markup is no longer written by hand (I hope), and hence, not
> so dependent on hints like div numbers. With modern editors, tags are
> chosen from a DTD-guided menu (as in XMetaL). With features like
> on-screen tag collapsing, or tree-structure views, which modern editors
I write mine by hand quite often (but of course generate many other
forms) and yes, do use oXygen with all its little ease-of-use additions.
> This type of simplifications are usually good...
Agreed. Of course if someone could happen to have already produced the
ODD which adds back in numbered divs (which is why I always liked the
phantom-class solution, since that makes it stunningly easy) and have it
ready at hand as soon as someone complains, then that could be a useful
public relations exercise.
However, I think it should add this only to 'full' TEI, not TEI-Lite.
-James
Moderate FAND supporter.
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Received on Sat Feb 04 2006 - 14:56:53 EST
Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 19:58:44 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
> James Cummings
>
>
>>The recent straying of posts from tei-board onto tei-l reminded me that I have
>>meant for awhile to propose that the tei-council mailing list archives be made
>>publicly available.
>
>
> That seems to be a good idea to me as well. If no objections are
> raised in the nex few days on this list, I will ask Daniel Pitti to
> see that the necessary changes are made.
No objections appear to have been raised about this. I think we should
ask Daniel to do this, and then when it has been done announce it on TEI-L.
-James
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Received on Sat Feb 04 2006 - 14:58:30 EST
Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 09:52:21 +0900
James Cummings
> No objections appear to have been raised about this. I think we
> should ask Daniel to do this, and then when it has been done announce
> it on TEI-L.
I wrote to Daniel Pitti to request the change. He will have to
investigate ways to implement this, so we should give him some time to
make this change.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Sun Feb 05 2006 - 19:52:56 EST
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 06:16:38 +0100
I fully support that with an additional argument: TEI LLite has a
true pedagogical role in the TEI community. It is important that it
reflect what we think as good practice.
Let's support FAND!
Laurent
Le 4 f?vr. 06 ? 15:59, Lou's Laptop a ?crit :
> Agents of the Front for Abolition of Numbered Divs have brain-
> washed me into believing that the P5-conformant version of TEI Lite
> I am currently working on should make no reference to numbered divs.
>
> How much of a ruckus do we think this little revision might cause?
>
>
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Received on Mon Feb 06 2006 - 00:17:02 EST
Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:42:25 +0000
Unfortunately (or not) just removing div0... div7 isn't the end of the
affair. The content models for body, front, back also need attention,
not to say radical simplification.
In the interests of speed and progress, I think what I'm going to do in
my radical revision of TEILite is to simplify the model a bit...
Can someone meantime remind me what the proposed "empty class" solution
was all about?
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Received on Tue Feb 07 2006 - 09:41:15 EST
Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 14:47:54 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
> Unfortunately (or not) just removing div0... div7 isn't the end of the
> affair. The content models for body, front, back also need attention,
> not to say radical simplification.
>
> In the interests of speed and progress, I think what I'm going to do in
> my radical revision of TEILite is to simplify the model a bit...
>
> Can someone meantime remind me what the proposed "empty class" solution
> was all about?
My memory is that this solution proposed replacing the numbered divs in all
content models with classes. So instead of allowing div1 you'd allow div1Like
(or whatever). However, while that class would be created it would have no
members, hence, be 'empty'.
The benefits of this is that unless one specifically adds in numbered divs, then
they do not exist. However, to add in a numbered div all you need to do is add
an element name to the div1Like class. Moreover, when you are doing so, you'll
scratch your head and say "If I want to limit sections to be inside chapters,
why am I calling these div1 and div2? Why don't I give them much more sensible
names, like chapter and section?". And so although you may add elements to
div1Like and div2Like etc., in order to have a content model which constrains
their placement, they will have much more sensible names at least.
Or have I misremembered this suggestion?
-James
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Received on Tue Feb 07 2006 - 09:48:06 EST
Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 15:45:56 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
> Unfortunately (or not) just removing div0... div7 isn't the end of the
> affair. The content models for body, front, back also need attention,
> not to say radical simplification.
welcome to the big bad world again......
>
> In the interests of speed and progress, I think what I'm going to do
> in my radical revision of TEILite is to simplify the model a bit...
I did this in the testoucs.odd, I see :-}
ebastian
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Received on Tue Feb 07 2006 - 10:46:08 EST
Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 09:39:16 +0900
Hi there,
I am in the process of validating a whole bunch of files that have
been transformed to P5 from P4. Among other things, this turned up a
change to the
have
(99/8/10)
but this is not valid anymore. Now I can just recreate the necessary
declarations in my ODDs, but I hope somebody can refresh my memory
about why this was thought a good idea.
The P5 docs (BTW, the examples are formatted a bit strange) want to
have just this
P4 to P5 conversion by cbetap4top5.xsl Rev. 1.4 of
2005/07/28: P5 version, intended for publication
All this is based on item 34 in edw92.xml. While this might not be as
controversial as numbered divs, I wonder if it is necessary to make P4
to P5 conversion unnecessarily cumbersome? I would prefer to have the
old content model as an alternative, but maybe I am overlooking
something?
Christian
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Tue Feb 07 2006 - 19:39:50 EST
Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 21:02:55 -0500
test--please ignore
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Received on Tue Feb 07 2006 - 21:02:52 EST
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 08:55:25 -0500
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (99/8/10)
>
>
> The P5 docs ... want to have just this ...
The docs you're looking at are incorrect. (I corrected them, but
after the snapshot was taken, I'm afriad.) The P5 representation
would be
|
| Created initial TEI XML version with BASICX.BAT
| (99/8/10)
|
The stylesheet at
http://www.tei-c.org/wiki/index.php/Change2change.xslt
will get you most of the way there. (It does not generate the
required
element.)
> I would prefer to have the old content model as an alternative, but
> maybe I am overlooking something?
You could probably convince me that the P4 model is better than the
P5 model, and thus that we should switch it back. But the idea of
having two alternative models strikes me as a very bad idea. Why
double the work of anyone querying or formatting a
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Received on Wed Feb 08 2006 - 08:55:38 EST
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 08:58:51 -0500
>
I'm not sure if the use of the solidus there is a typo or what you
actually have in your P4 files. But P5 requires the W3C format:
1999-08-10T22:31:38
The stylesheet I referred to does not do anything to fix the format,
it just copies whatever is there (from date/@value if present, from
date/text() if not) over to the right place.
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Received on Wed Feb 08 2006 - 08:58:59 EST
Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 20:14:31 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
>
>
_______________________________________________
> I am in the process of validating a whole bunch of files that have
> been transformed to P5 from P4. Among other things, this turned up a
> change to the
Well, you *were* in the room when this was discussed!
I think the rationale was that this is a bit of metadata which an
application would generate in any case, and that a simpler structure
would make that easier and clearer. I don't think anyone expressed
anxiety about migrating existing data -- tho Syd subsequently posted a
stylesheet to do just that.
T
> The P5 docs (BTW, the examples are formatted a bit strange) want to
> have just this
>
What do you mean exactly by the "P5 docs"?
At http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/HD.html#HD6 I see an
example which looks fine to me.
>
> P4 to P5 conversion by cbetap4top5.xsl Rev. 1.4 of
> 2005/07/28: P5 version, intended for publication
>
>
Or you could do
etc.
> All this is based on item 34 in edw92.xml. While this might not be as
> controversial as numbered divs, I wonder if it is necessary to make P4
> to P5 conversion unnecessarily cumbersome? I would prefer to have the
> old content model as an alternative, but maybe I am overlooking
> something?
I think I would class having the old content model as an alternative
as "unnecessarily cumbersome" -- and that was also the sense of the meeting.
Maybe other council members could express an opinion -- it's not
difficult to revert this change, if people feel strongly about it,
though I think I would vote against the proposal.
> Christian
>
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Received on Wed Feb 08 2006 - 15:12:38 EST
Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 20:47:56 +0000
James Cummings wrote:
> Lou Burnard wrote:
>
>>Unfortunately (or not) just removing div0... div7 isn't the end of the
>>affair. The content models for body, front, back also need attention,
>>not to say radical simplification.
>>
>>Can someone meantime remind me what the proposed "empty class" solution
>>was all about?
>
>
> My memory is that this solution proposed replacing the numbered divs in all
> content models with classes. So instead of allowing div1 you'd allow div1Like
> (or whatever). However, while that class would be created it would have no
> members, hence, be 'empty'.
>
> The benefits of this is that unless one specifically adds in numbered divs, then
> they do not exist. However, to add in a numbered div all you need to do is add
> an element name to the div1Like class. Moreover, when you are doing so, you'll
> scratch your head and say "If I want to limit sections to be inside chapters,
> why am I calling these div1 and div2? Why don't I give them much more sensible
> names, like chapter and section?". And so although you may add elements to
> div1Like and div2Like etc., in order to have a content model which constrains
> their placement, they will have much more sensible names at least.
>
> Or have I misremembered this suggestion?
>
> -James
>
I see how introducing these classes might help address the concerns of
those who want to be able to tell from the name of an element what its
hierarchic position is. I don't see how that helps with the fact that if
the topmost classes (div0 or div1 as was) are empty you will wind up
with a non-deterministic content model.
The second problem seems to me more serious.
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Received on Wed Feb 08 2006 - 15:46:03 EST
Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:58:13 +0000
Here's a brief note on some of the changes I am making in TEI Lite.
1. The element
complement and revised the discussion of how abbreviation should
be handled, in line with the revisions for
etc. (and introduced
2. The
actually present in any version of the teilite dtd since 2004. I've
removed discussion of it.
3. The elements
, , were previously added as
extensions; all but the last are available from the tagdocs module, so
I've taken them from there now, adding and (but not )
for good measure. I've retained as an extension. I'm open to
persuasion as to whether to remove this, or to add , ,
...
4. I have added : it has always been discussed in U5, but not
actually included in the DTD for no very good reason.
5. As previously noted, I am trying to remove numbered divs. More on
that anon.
6. I'm in the process of substantially revising the discussion of
linking and pointers, in line with the new P5 regime.
7. I've revised the discussion of figures and graphics in line with how
it is now presented in P5. I havent added yet though.
8. I plan to axe most of the discussion of character entities.
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Received on Wed Feb 08 2006 - 17:01:27 EST
Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:54:43 +0900
Lou Burnard
> Christian Wittern wrote:
>
>
>> I am in the process of validating a whole bunch of files that have
>> been transformed to P5 from P4. Among other things, this turned up a
>> change to the
>
> Well, you *were* in the room when this was discussed!
I know, this makes it all the more embarassing:-) What I was missing
was the reasoning.
> I think the rationale was that this is a bit of metadata which an
> application would generate in any case, and that a simpler structure
> would make that easier and clearer. I don't think anyone expressed
> anxiety about migrating existing data -- tho Syd subsequently posted a
> stylesheet to do just that.
It seems that the underlying issue here is making the data
validatable, which is the one big theme for P5 and the real change
from everything before P5. Not everybody will like it, but this
discussion has convinced me that in this specific case I am throwing
away structure but gain validation, which is a good thing. So instead
of adding back the old way, I'll try to be a good P5 citizen and
change my stylesheet instead, which will then have to bring the
date-and-time thing in order as well. Having said that, I think I see
another migration workgroup somewhere on the horizon...
>> The P5 docs (BTW, the examples are formatted a bit strange) want to
>> have just this
>>
>
> What do you mean exactly by the "P5 docs"?
>
> At http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/HD.html#HD6 I see
> an example which looks fine to me.
I don't have the exact URL here (it is on my laptop at home), but I
think it was http://www.tei-c.org/P5/Guidelines/ref-change.html, but
that looks fine now as well.
>> All this is based on item 34 in edw92.xml. While this might not be as
>> controversial as numbered divs, I wonder if it is necessary to make P4
>> to P5 conversion unnecessarily cumbersome? I would prefer to have the
>> old content model as an alternative, but maybe I am overlooking
>> something?
>
> I think I would class having the old content model as an alternative
> as "unnecessarily cumbersome" -- and that was also the sense of the
> meeting.
I was talking about the migration. But this discussion has convinced
me now, as I said above that it would be against the spirit of P5 to
do have both -- what a big, radical change in the TEI world!
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Feb 08 2006 - 19:55:19 EST
Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:58:28 +0900
"Lou's Laptop"
> Here's a brief note on some of the changes I am making in TEI Lite.
>
[...]
All this looks fine to me. It seems it was time somebody looked at
TEILite carefully.
> 8. I plan to axe most of the discussion of character entities.
Will you add the
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Feb 08 2006 - 19:59:02 EST
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 22:27:38 -0500
I'd also like to lobby for
John
-- | John A. Walsh | Associate Director for Projects and Services, Digital Library Program | Associate Librarian, University Libraries | Adjunct Associate Professor, Department of English | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | Voice:812-855-8758 Fax:812-856-2062
Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:16:08 +0000
Lou's Laptop wrote:
>
> 3. The elements
, , were previously added as
> extensions; all but the last are available from the tagdocs module, so
> I've taken them from there now, adding
>
> to persuasion as to whether to remove this, or to add
>
I say remove it. make Lite a strict subset. I would not add
where would people use them? and
> 5. As previously noted, I am trying to remove numbered divs. More on
> that anon.
I hit this last night in concocting an exercise for our TEI course. I
was able
to zap numbered divs, at the cost of losing
for my exercise, but you might baulk at it for Lite. The point is (as
you know),
the content model for is too fragile, it is not possible for the
user to tell
whether or not it will break when an element is removed. We went through
this back in September or so, when Syd was putting in fairly radical changes
to the models following the class meeting, and I clawed back to a sane, but
fragile, state. ,
same problem.
> 7. I've revised the discussion of figures and graphics in line with
> how it is now presented in P5. I havent added
you probably should.
>
> 8. I plan to axe most of the discussion of character entities.
I agree with Christian, add the gaiji module, and document
we have to be serious about this, or there was no point
doing the work.
ebastian
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Received on Thu Feb 09 2006 - 04:16:11 EST
Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:42:39 +0000
Sympathetic as I am to the suggestion that
Lite document, I am also feeling somewhat daunted at the extra baggage
this would entail. It isn't just a matter of adding
to add all the paraphernalia of
As a way forward, could all Council members take a moment to look at my
current draft for a P5 version of TEI Lite and dispassionately review
its contents? Suppose you have to nominate two or three topics/elements
which should be axed in favour of a proper treatment of
would they be?
I'm also ready to hear suggestions about things I have axed but should
restore, disagreement about the way I have expressed what I see as the
design goals for this revision, suggestions for a change of emphasis etc.
I am less disposed to hear arguments along the lines "we mustn't touch
this because it's already so widely deployed we can't change anything in
it"... there's a lot in the current TEI Lite which cannot be carried
forward unchanged from P4 to P5.
You can read the current draft at
http://www.tei-c.org/Drafts/lite-doc-p5.html
I would also like to open up this discussion to the hordes on TEI-L
soonish, unless anyone on the Council suggests that the whole enterprise
is fundamentally flawed.
Lou
John A. Walsh wrote:
> I'd also like to lobby for
>
> John
> --
> | John A. Walsh
> | Associate Director for Projects and Services, Digital Library Program
> | Associate Librarian, University Libraries
> | Adjunct Associate Professor, Department of English
> | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405
> | Voice:812-855-8758 Fax:812-856-2062
>
>
>
> On Feb 8, 2006, at 7:58 PM, Christian Wittern wrote:
>
>> "Lou's Laptop"
>>
>>> Here's a brief note on some of the changes I am making in TEI Lite.
>>>
>> [...]
>>
>> All this looks fine to me. It seems it was time somebody looked at
>> TEILite carefully.
>>
>>> 8. I plan to axe most of the discussion of character entities.
>>
>>
>> Will you add the
>>
>> Christian
>>
>> --
>> Christian Wittern
>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
>> 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
>> _______________________________________________
>> tei-council mailing list
>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Received on Thu Feb 09 2006 - 11:41:42 EST
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:47:45 +0900
Christian Wittern
> James Cummings
>
>> The recent straying of posts from tei-board onto tei-l reminded me that I have
>> meant for awhile to propose that the tei-council mailing list archives be made
>> publicly available.
>
> That seems to be a good idea to me as well. If no objections are
> raised in the nex few days on this list, I will ask Daniel Pitti to
> see that the necessary changes are made.
>
I am glad to announce now that this change has been made. Here
http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/ you will find the
archive of our discussions starting August 26, 2004. For some reason
the pre-history of the Council's discussion is lost here and has
probably to be excavated if it is deemed necessary. Do we need this?
Most mail addresses are moderately escpaed, but some appear in the
visible text, but they are not activated as links. Do we deem that as a
good enough protection against spam bots?
I asked Daniel also for a search button, but he said that would delay
the move by months, so I propose that we through the gates open now.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Feb 09 2006 - 18:47:49 EST
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:16:42 +0900
Council members,
I spend a good deal of the last days writing and modifying odds, which
is a remarkably pleasure nowadays. The task was to transform our
largish collection of Chinese Buddhist documents from P4 to P5 (with
tens of thousands of
of this was that I needed to work from a "hand-extended" TEI DTD that
started out as a specific view, but has seen a very unhealthy growth
over the last 7+ years. In most cases, I could somehow describe in
ODD what was needed, with the one deviation from the path of virtue
being the content model for
scratch to accomodate all kinds of ideosyncrasies (I hope I never have
to show this to Michael B.). One of the problems I have not yet been
able solve reasonably is a modification I would like to make to the
@rend attribute. At the moment, there are several different ways to
express a specific requirement (and I hope to do more alignment on
this at some point, but *not* now), one of them being just inserting
the number of required "ideographic spaces". The current data model,
which is data.words does not allow this, so I wold like to redefine
it. Now the question: How am I supposed to do this? I know we have
several times discussed that this should be doable, but now that I
want to do it I am at a loss. I do not want to change data.words
itself, but rather replace it in the declaration of @rend with my own
definition, which would be
somewhere? If yes, I certainly have not been able to find it.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 10 2006 - 07:16:46 EST
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:33:39 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
> Now the question: How am I supposed to do this? I know we have
>several times discussed that this should be doable, but now that I
>want to do it I am at a loss. I do not want to change data.words
>itself, but rather replace it in the declaration of @rend with my own
>definition, which would be
>
>
you just change the datatype of the @rend attribute, surely?
do you mean where in Roma, or just how to do it in ODD?
ebastian
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Received on Fri Feb 10 2006 - 07:33:43 EST
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:49:25 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz
> Christian Wittern wrote:
>
>>
> you just change the datatype of the @rend attribute, surely?
>
> do you mean where in Roma, or just how to do it in ODD?
The latter. How to I express this wish in ODD?
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 10 2006 - 07:49:27 EST
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:51:42 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
>
>The latter. How to I express this wish in ODD?
>
>
>
(untested)
enbastoam
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Received on Fri Feb 10 2006 - 07:51:55 EST
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:04:09 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (untested)
tested. it works as announced. thanks!! Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 10 2006 - 08:04:12 EST
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:50:13 +0000
I haven't heard a word in response to my request for comments on the P5
revision of TEI Lite last week, not even to point out the deliberate
errors which I introduced (and have now fixed anyway) :)
Come on chaps: this work is being done in your name: when they ask me
"why did you do that?" I shall say "well the TEI council didn't tell me
not to...."!
Seriously though -- it only takes half an hour to skim through the text
and see whether what's new makes sense. Why not do it today?
thanks in advance
Lou
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Received on Wed Feb 15 2006 - 05:49:30 EST
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:43:02 -0500
Lou and Council,
Just had a read through the TEI Lite draft
(http://www.tei-c.org/Drafts/lite-doc-p5.html), and it looks fine to
me. It would be nice to include
last week), but I don't think it's necessary - and I can't suggest
anything to cut to make room for it. I also don't have any suggestions
for elements not in TEI Lite that should be there.
Dot
On 2/15/06, Lou Burnard
> I haven't heard a word in response to my request for comments on the P5
> revision of TEI Lite last week, not even to point out the deliberate
> errors which I introduced (and have now fixed anyway) :)
>
> Come on chaps: this work is being done in your name: when they ask me
> "why did you do that?" I shall say "well the TEI council didn't tell me
> not to...."!
>
> Seriously though -- it only takes half an hour to skim through the text
> and see whether what's new makes sense. Why not do it today?
>
> thanks in advance
>
> Lou
>
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>
-- *************************************** Dot Porter, Program Coordinator Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities University of Kentucky 351 William T. Young Library Lexington, KY 40506 dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549 *************************************** _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Feb 15 2006 - 11:43:11 EST
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:42:31 +0900
Dear Council members,
At the last call we agreed to reconvene on Friday, 2006-02-24 at 1200
UTC. As usual, I would like to ask John to set up the call and post
the connection details.
Please send me any items you would like to see discussed, I plan to
post a preliminary agenda on Monday. Workgroup heads or liaison
persons are kindly requested to give a short report of recent work,
preferably in writing to this list prior to the call.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Feb 15 2006 - 20:43:06 EST
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 11:27:38 +0900
Dear Council members,
I know some of you are eagerly waiting for details, so I will provide
a short update on the preparations.
As mentioned, I am planning to hold a 1 day public meeting prior to
our usual Council Meeting. The plan is to attract people interested
in the TEI to come and learn more about the TEI, but also people who
have some faint, old ideas about what the TEI used to be, and fill
them with enthousiasm about what the TEI is now and will be in the
near future. For this purpose, I have asked five council members to
present papers (I will contact these five separatedly with more
details about that) about things that I hope will appeal to this
audience. This session will be in the afternoon of Wed, May 17. In
the morning of this day I am planning for a "Japanese Session" that
will hopefully make it easier to get people coming (which is usually a
tough sell for English only meetings). This part will be coordinated
with OHYA Kazushi, who is quite excited about this.
At the moment the venue etc. is not finalized, but I will keep you
updated on this.
For those not among the speakers, the travel costs will be re-imbursed
by the TEI as usual. I think it would be good for the TEI if you could
make your travel arrangements so that they allow you to take part at
least in the afternoon session on the 17th; the council meeting itself
is scheduled for May 18&19. I will have to look into accomodation in
more detail once we finalized the venue of the meeting and will keep
you updated.
For those coming to Japan for the first time, Kyoto was the capital
for more than a millenium and is still considered the cultural heart
of Japan. You could easily fill three weeks of sightseeing just
within the city and its surroundings and then there is much more in
easy reach, for example Nara, 45 minutes on the same subway trains
that serve the city, Osaka; the famous Himeiji castle (one of the
finest in Japan) and so on. May is an especially good season for
travel, right after the "Golden Week" at the beginning of May, which
is a week-long serious of holidays that most locals use for a getaway,
since the climate is very confortable -- after the cherry blossoms but
before the rainy season and the heat of the summer.
I will be back with more details in ca. 2 weeks time,
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Feb 15 2006 - 21:28:12 EST
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 09:48:16 +0900
Christian Wittern
> For those not among the speakers, the travel costs will be re-imbursed
> by the TEI as usual. I think it would be good for the TEI if you could
> make your travel arrangements so that they allow you to take part at
> least in the afternoon session on the 17th; the council meeting itself
> is scheduled for May 18&19. I will have to look into accomodation in
> more detail once we finalized the venue of the meeting and will keep
> you updated.
Another piece of info is that the closest international airport
servicing Kyoto is called KIX (or Osaka), it is 75 minutes by express
train from there to Kyoto Station.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Feb 16 2006 - 19:48:18 EST
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:23:17 -0500
Christian,
Is there any further news on the discussed poster session that would
allow participation by additional council members who haven't been
invited to give papers?
John
-- | John A. Walsh | Associate Director for Projects and Services, Digital Library Program | Associate Librarian, University Libraries | Adjunct Associate Professor, Department of English | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | Voice:812-855-8758 Fax:812-856-2062
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 10:11:34 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
> Sympathetic as I am to the suggestion that
> Lite document, I am also feeling somewhat daunted at the extra baggage
> this would entail. It isn't just a matter of adding
> to add all the paraphernalia of
I have to disagree with some other members of the council on this. I think TEI
Lite should expressly *not* contain
using non-standard character or glyph, simply that I strongly feel that if they
are doing something unusual (i.e. using such characters) then they would benefit
more greatly from using 'full' TEI and/or creating their own customisation. TEI
Lite should be just that, 'Lite'.
However, I do have the following comments:
1) Section 17: should be expanded a bit, perhaps mentioning that if one needs to
use strange non-unicode characters that the full version of TEI has the
capability to allow you to do this with
2) Section 17: It may be misleading to say "Unicode as the required character
set for all documents", as XML allows you to specify other encodings, isn't it
the parsers which have to worry about changing them to unicode.
3) Section 17: Perhaps providing some examples of unicode character entity usage
might make the last sentence clearer.
4) Somewhere there should be a short discussion that TEI-Lite is expressed as an
ODD and either a copy of that ODD or a link to it. This discussion should
mention Roma and that TEI users have the ability to make their own
customisations if they don't like TEI Lite.
5) Section 19.4: Isn't @who a pointer and so need a '#' at the front of it? In
fact, there should be some discussion of where @who is pointing to (if in the
same document). The example in 19.1.1 doesn't contain an xml:id ... it would be
good if these two examples could work together.
6) There are various other uses of @who without '#', is the same true about @hand?
7) Section 9.3: "In a modern edition, an editor might wish to represent this as
?with?, italicising the letters not found in the source." ... The 'i' and the
'h'appear bold in my browser and since you are talking about italicising them
this might prove confusing to readers.
-James
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Received on Fri Feb 17 2006 - 05:11:40 EST
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 13:38:04 +0000
Felix Sasaki wrote:
> Hi Sebastian,
>
> I checked namespaces in the tagset draft with
> http://www.w3.org/2003/09/nschecker?uri=http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-its-20060222/
> It is absolutely not important for the draft, but I saw that there is no
> document at http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0 . Might be useful to have a
> small document, e.g. like http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its
>
I have put the document in place as suggested by Felix. Hope
it meets everyones approval. Yes, I know its not strictly
necessary....
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
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Received on Fri Feb 17 2006 - 08:39:34 EST
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:00:58 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>
> Felix Sasaki wrote:
>
>>Hi Sebastian,
>>
>>I checked namespaces in the tagset draft with
>>http://www.w3.org/2003/09/nschecker?uri=http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-its-20060222/
>>It is absolutely not important for the draft, but I saw that there is no
>>document at http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0 . Might be useful to have a
>>small document, e.g. like http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its
>>
>
>
>
> I have put the document in place as suggested by Felix. Hope
> it meets everyones approval. Yes, I know its not strictly
> necessary....
Except, of course, that you can't get to it at:
http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0
because you need to put in the final / because of Cocoon...and most uses of the
namespace that I have seen don't have this.
Maybe you could put in a redirect for ns/1.0 to ns/1.0/ ?
I know someone explained this once before (probably Sebastian) but why do we
have a version number 1.0 if we aren't planning to change it?
-James
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Received on Fri Feb 17 2006 - 09:01:01 EST
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:03:04 +0000
James Cummings wrote:
>
> Except, of course, that you can't get to it at:
> http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0
> because you need to put in the final / because of Cocoon
have you tried it?
> I know someone explained this once before (probably Sebastian) but why do we
> have a version number 1.0 if we aren't planning to change it?
in case we change our minds
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 17 2006 - 09:04:33 EST
Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:06:44 +0000
James Cummings wrote:
> Except, of course, that you can't get to it at:
> http://www.tei-c.org/ns/1.0
> because you need to put in the final / because of Cocoon...and most uses of the
> namespace that I have seen don't have this.
>
> Maybe you could put in a redirect for ns/1.0 to ns/1.0/ ?
And of course, if I had waited a few more minutes... this seems to have been added.
Apologies,
-James
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Received on Fri Feb 17 2006 - 09:06:47 EST
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:26:45 +0900
"John A. Walsh"
> Christian,
>
> Is there any further news on the discussed poster session that would
> allow participation by additional council members who haven't been
> invited to give papers?
It is not yet definite, but I am working towards this plan.
All the best, Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Fri Feb 17 2006 - 23:27:19 EST
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 14:34:03 +0900
James Cummings
> Lou Burnard wrote:
>> Sympathetic as I am to the suggestion that
>> Lite document, I am also feeling somewhat daunted at the extra baggage
>> this would entail. It isn't just a matter of adding
>> to add all the paraphernalia of
This is true, but in practice most users will encounter only the
that pops up as a possible element in all content models.
> I have to disagree with some other members of the council on this. I think TEI
> Lite should expressly *not* contain
> using non-standard character or glyph, simply that I strongly feel that if they
> are doing something unusual (i.e. using such characters) then they would benefit
> more greatly from using 'full' TEI and/or creating their own customisation. TEI
> Lite should be just that, 'Lite'.
I think there are two separate issues here.
The
encoder to introduce new characters or specify attributes to existing
characters. The necessity of this arises from issues with the
underlying character encoding and is quite independent of the relative
complexity of the markup used.
Quite aside from this issue, one of the applications of TEI Lite is in
introductions to TEI (or mostly, text encoding, markup etc) that want
to provide a good overview of what text encoding is. The benefit of
having TEI Lite here is that it comes with a very condensed tutorial
which is far less intimidating than the whole Guidelines (it is also
the only part of the TEI that has so far been translated in a range of
languages other than English) and that it comes with downloadable
schema files. This latter fact is quite crucial for introductory
courses, because the concepts necessary for understanding and using
Roma to create a customization are beyond reach here. Currently, I am
preparing customized TEI Lite versions that differ from the "standard"
TEI Lite only in that they have the gaiji-module added. The
impression this makes on participants is without fail that "standard"
TEI is simply not up to the task of dealing with East Asian texts
(since that is what I have to deal with in my courses), which gives
them (in their eyes) a good excuse to avoid dealing with TEI at all.
>
> However, I do have the following comments:
>
> 1) Section 17: should be expanded a bit, perhaps mentioning that if one needs to
> use strange non-unicode characters that the full version of TEI has the
> capability to allow you to do this with
Yes, the
discussed here. I think it is also overly optimistic to say that
"For those working with standard forms of the European languages in
particular, almost no special action is needed: "
The action needed is either to convince the "any XML editor" to use
UTF-8 or if that does not work, declare the encoding of the file to
use iso-8859-1. "No action" is surely asking for desaster here.
>
> 2) Section 17: It may be misleading to say "Unicode as the required character
> set for all documents", as XML allows you to specify other encodings, isn't it
> the parsers which have to worry about changing them to unicode.
No. XML uses only Unicode. XML uses only Unicode. XML uses only
Unicode. If you specify an encoding in the XML declaration, what you
do is specify a *subset* of XML. You can not specify an encoding that
can not be mapped to XML. (Such things do exist and a friend of mine
sticks to SGML for this very reason)
>
> 3) Section 17: Perhaps providing some examples of unicode character entity usage
> might make the last sentence clearer.
Talking about entity references opens a very ugly can of worms here,
especially since mainstream P5 is not using DTDs any more. If you mean
numeric character references like you should say so.
> 4) Somewhere there should be a short discussion that TEI-Lite is expressed as an
> ODD and either a copy of that ODD or a link to it. This discussion should
> mention Roma and that TEI users have the ability to make their own
> customisations if they don't like TEI Lite.
I would say that it should be enough to point to somewhere in the
Guidelines.
All the best,
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Feb 20 2006 - 00:34:38 EST
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:22:21 +0000
> The benefit of
> having TEI Lite here is that it comes with a very condensed tutorial
> which is far less intimidating than the whole Guidelines (it is also
> the only part of the TEI that has so far been translated in a range of
> languages other than English) and that it comes with downloadable
> schema files. This latter fact is quite crucial for introductory
> courses, because the concepts necessary for understanding and using
> Roma to create a customization are beyond reach here.
we can add gaiji to Lite, but not spend much time documenting it?
> Currently, I am
> preparing customized TEI Lite versions that differ from the "standard"
> TEI Lite only in that they have the gaiji-module added.
you use the new Lite, I hope ?
> The
> impression this makes on participants is without fail that "standard"
> TEI is simply not up to the task of dealing with East Asian texts
> (since that is what I have to deal with in my courses), which gives
> them (in their eyes) a good excuse to avoid dealing with TEI at all.
you're saying most East Asian texts need gaiji?
> "For those working with standard forms of the European languages in
> particular, almost no special action is needed: "
>
> The action needed is either to convince the "any XML editor" to use
> UTF-8 or if that does not work, declare the encoding of the file to
> use iso-8859-1. "No action" is surely asking for desaster here.
tell me which editors don't do the right thing?
>
> No. XML uses only Unicode. XML uses only Unicode. XML uses only
> Unicode.
*internally*, yes.
If you specify an encoding in the XML declaration, what you
> do is specify a *subset* of XML.
I dont agree. you specify the encoding that your document uses.
Most parsers will transcode it, but do not have to.
You can not specify an encoding that
> can not be mapped to XML.
which encodings cannot be mapped?
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Feb 20 2006 - 16:24:04 EST
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:28:37 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
> James Cummings
>>I have to disagree with some other members of the council on this. I think TEI
>>Lite should expressly *not* contain
>>using non-standard character or glyph, simply that I strongly feel that if they
>>are doing something unusual (i.e. using such characters) then they would benefit
>>more greatly from using 'full' TEI and/or creating their own customisation. TEI
>>Lite should be just that, 'Lite'.
>
>
> I think there are two separate issues here.
>
> The
> encoder to introduce new characters or specify attributes to existing
> characters. The necessity of this arises from issues with the
> underlying character encoding and is quite independent of the relative
> complexity of the markup used.
True, I agree with this.
> Quite aside from this issue, one of the applications of TEI Lite is in
> introductions to TEI (or mostly, text encoding, markup etc) that want
> to provide a good overview of what text encoding is. The benefit of
> having TEI Lite here is that it comes with a very condensed tutorial
> which is far less intimidating than the whole Guidelines (it is also
> the only part of the TEI that has so far been translated in a range of
> languages other than English) and that it comes with downloadable
> schema files. This latter fact is quite crucial for introductory
> courses, because the concepts necessary for understanding and using
> Roma to create a customization are beyond reach here.
I also agree with this, Lou, Sebastian and I are using TEI Lite
documentation in the course material for a 2day course we are in the
middle of teaching.
> Currently, I am
> preparing customized TEI Lite versions that differ from the "standard"
> TEI Lite only in that they have the gaiji-module added. The
> impression this makes on participants is without fail that "standard"
> TEI is simply not up to the task of dealing with East Asian texts
> (since that is what I have to deal with in my courses), which gives
> them (in their eyes) a good excuse to avoid dealing with TEI at all.
That is a shame, and an understandable customisation as a way around
it. But is this an argument for adding
making your customisation available as well? (It is a theoretical
tangent that this is a separate TEI customisation (TEIGaijiLite?!?)
rather than TEILite+gaiji. I.e. that people should be customising
TEI, not customising TEILite)
Since I know absolutely nothing about East Asian texts and the amount
of Unicode support in that area, I had always assumed that a fair bit
of necessary glyphs had already made it in to Unicode. (I know this
will expose my ignorance both of East Asian languages and Unicode's
coverage of them.)
In teaching today Lou and Sebastian did mention that we were using a
subset of TEI called TEI-Lite, but proceeded also to describe the TEI
modules, class system, etc. before having students use Roma to
customise the TEI themselves. Using TEILite is not incompatible with
also showing how to customise the TEI. Rather than concentrate on
adding in gaiji, I would have thought it more of a benefit to show
them how to start with 'full' TEI and remove all the bits they don't
want for their exercises. If this happens to produce TEILite+gaiji,
then so be it. In fact, rather than concentrating on adding gaiji, I
would have thought it should be highlighted as a module providing good
functionality for East Asian languages and special glyphs that other
encoding schemes might not provide.
>>2) Section 17: It may be misleading to say "Unicode as the required character
>>set for all documents", as XML allows you to specify other encodings, isn't it
>>the parsers which have to worry about changing them to unicode.
>
> No. XML uses only Unicode. XML uses only Unicode. XML uses only
> Unicode. If you specify an encoding in the XML declaration, what you
> do is specify a *subset* of XML. You can not specify an encoding that
> can not be mapped to XML. (Such things do exist and a friend of mine
> sticks to SGML for this very reason)
Yes, you are right of course, when I declare my document as iso-8859-1
for example, this is a subset of XML. Since the first 256 code points
in unicode were made identical to iso-8859-1 then my subset is easily
mapped. I think what was in my mind was the way it was expressed
seemed to suggest that only one encoding was allowed, while this is
true in that it is Unicode, it might frighten people off who are used
to using other character encodings which are now part of unicode. So
I guess I wanted some examples saying that various iso encodings are
allowed.
>>3) Section 17: Perhaps providing some examples of unicode character entity usage
>>might make the last sentence clearer.
> Talking about entity references opens a very ugly can of worms here,
> especially since mainstream P5 is not using DTDs any more. If you mean
> numeric character references like you should say so.
You are right, I meant character references, so I reiterate:
'providing some examples of Unicode character references usage might
make the last sentence clearer'.
>>4) Somewhere there should be a short discussion that TEI-Lite is expressed as an
>>ODD and either a copy of that ODD or a link to it. This discussion should
>>mention Roma and that TEI users have the ability to make their own
>>customisations if they don't like TEI Lite.
>
> I would say that it should be enough to point to somewhere in the
> Guidelines.
What I'm trying to avoid by suggesting this is exactly the problem the
you were encountering above, that people think TEI-Lite is 'TEI' and
when it can't cope with something think that 'TEI isn't up to it'. I
think that TEI Lite should be proclaiming loud and proud that it is a
customisation and that 'full' TEI has much more in it.
-James
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Received on Mon Feb 20 2006 - 16:28:33 EST
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:37:38 +0000
James Cummings wrote:
>
> In teaching today Lou and Sebastian did mention that we were using a
> subset of TEI called TEI-Lite, but proceeded also to describe the TEI
> modules, class system, etc. before having students use Roma to customise
> the TEI themselves.
and I don't think anyone had much of an issue with doing this
(http://www.tei-c.org/Talks/2006/OUCS/exercise-roma.pdf). Interestingly,
the question was "why do we bother? why not just use tei-all?", to
which I had no real answer. Arguments in favour of a subset come down
to making editing work faster, and making sure you stick to your own
rules. If neither of those bothers you, you might as well have the
whole shebang.
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Feb 20 2006 - 16:39:12 EST
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 22:20:18 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>
>
> James Cummings wrote:
>
>>
>> In teaching today Lou and Sebastian did mention that we were using a
>> subset of TEI called TEI-Lite, but proceeded also to describe the TEI
>> modules, class system, etc. before having students use Roma to
>> customise the TEI themselves.
>
>
> and I don't think anyone had much of an issue with doing this
> (http://www.tei-c.org/Talks/2006/OUCS/exercise-roma.pdf). Interestingly,
> the question was "why do we bother? why not just use tei-all?", to
> which I had no real answer. Arguments in favour of a subset come down
> to making editing work faster, and making sure you stick to your own
> rules. If neither of those bothers you, you might as well have the
> whole shebang.
Yes, I mean obviously when employing a number of people to all work on
the same project then (as I believe you said this afternoon) the more
you can constrain them the better.
Instead of using Roma to 'build up' an ODD containing just the
elements you need, maybe it is a better pedagogic exercise to start
with an ODD containing everything TEI offers and selectively remove
all those unnecessary modules. Then remove all those other elements
you don't want for your teaching purposes but are in modules you
otherwise need. This highlights that TEI has lots and lots of 'stuff'
but that you aren't going to need it in this one case.
-James
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Received on Mon Feb 20 2006 - 17:20:14 EST
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 08:55:35 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz
> > The benefit of
>> having TEI Lite here is that it comes with a very condensed tutorial
>> which is far less intimidating than the whole Guidelines (it is also
>> the only part of the TEI that has so far been translated in a range of
>> languages other than English) and that it comes with downloadable
>> schema files. This latter fact is quite crucial for introductory
>> courses, because the concepts necessary for understanding and using
>> Roma to create a customization are beyond reach here.
>
> we can add gaiji to Lite, but not spend much time documenting it?
>
For example
>> Currently, I am
>> preparing customized TEI Lite versions that differ from the "standard"
>> TEI Lite only in that they have the gaiji-module added.
> you use the new Lite, I hope ?
This *currently* was in fact what I did last year. Now I would use
the new version.
>> The
>> impression this makes on participants is without fail that "standard"
>> TEI is simply not up to the task of dealing with East Asian texts
>> (since that is what I have to deal with in my courses), which gives
>> them (in their eyes) a good excuse to avoid dealing with TEI at all.
>
> you're saying most East Asian texts need gaiji?
>
Not necessarily new characters, but associating codepoints with
specific glyphs is a frequent requirement. In my specific audience -
academics dealing with premodern east asian texts - gaiji is a
frequent requirement as well. At this point in time this is also
necessary in many cases were a character exists in the latest version
of Unicodes, but the editors, operating systems etc do not yet support
that character.
>
>
>> "For those working with standard forms of the European languages in
>> particular, almost no special action is needed: "
>> The action needed is either to convince the "any XML editor" to use
>> UTF-8 or if that does not work, declare the encoding of the file to
>> use iso-8859-1. "No action" is surely asking for desaster here.
>
> tell me which editors don't do the right thing?
>
Emacs (out of the box), a whole bunch of plain text editors. It might
be the case that most XML editors now do support it, but my impression
from various mailing lists is that the problem still persists. I
think it would be enough to simply add a phrase similar to what I said
in the quote above.
>> No. XML uses only Unicode. XML uses only Unicode. XML uses only
>> Unicode.
> *internally*, yes.
>
> If you specify an encoding in the XML declaration, what you
>> do is specify a *subset* of XML.
>
> I dont agree. you specify the encoding that your document uses.
But you are always free to use any codepoint with numeric references.
These NCRs are to *Unicode* not to the declared encoding. So what you
declare is a subset.
> Most parsers will transcode it, but do not have to.
>
Show me one that does not transcode. Life would be pretty hard then,
I assume.
> You can not specify an encoding that
>> can not be mapped to XML.
>
> which encodings cannot be mapped?
>
My friend uses CCCII, the Chinese Character Coding for Information
Interchange defined in Taiwan 1985. There is also more recently the
TRON character set in Japan, which is used in PC like operating
systems and cell phones.
All the bes,t
Christian
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Mon Feb 20 2006 - 18:56:09 EST
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 11:08:37 +0900
Christian Wittern
>> If you specify an encoding in the XML declaration, what you
>>> do is specify a *subset* of XML.
Sorry, that should be a subset of Unicode.
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Mon Feb 20 2006 - 21:09:01 EST
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 16:30:35 +0900
Council members,
I meant to forward this message last week, but since I do not see them
in the archive, I assume that it went astray somehow. Once again.
Christian
From: Murray McGillivray
Subject: Re: PB Workgroup progress?
To: Christian Wittern
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:33:31 -0700
Christian, the workgroup is currently considering early drafts of two
encoding strategies for book structure, one designed to allow encoding
of the kinds of collation formulae that are used (following Fredson
Bowers) for later printed books from the letterpress era (the example
formula encoding we're looking at is of a book printed in 1671) and
easy output of Bowers-style formulae via XSLT, the other designed to
give a fully explicit account of the structure of a book (the same
book, in the example we are looking at) from that era. Lou Burnard has
posted both bits of XML to the Web site. The current tags of both sets
allow encoding of uncomplicated cases. The next example encodings, to
be received by the workgroup tomorrow or Monday, show encoding of an
uncomplicated manuscript collation and an uncomplicated incunable
collation using the same tags as in the previous example.
When there is agreeement on these tagsets as a basis from which to
proceed, after discussion and without or after amendment, the next
step is to look at more complicated cases, such as fragmentary
gatherings or misbindings in manuscripts, or cancellations and
substitutions in early and later printed books. I expect that such
cases can be considered within the next five weeks.
After that, the workgroup needs to think about two further sets of
issues: means for rich encoding of facts about pages to go in body (so
far these are represented only by pb and fw tags), and header
information appropriate to printed books that will complement the work
of the manuscript description workgroup. Other areas may well come up
as the work progresses due to the interdisciplinary and international
nature of the workgroup.
I've done a fair bit of preliminary draftiing work already in all of
these tagging areas, and expect to be able to move fairly quickly
through the areas I outline, but I will be giving workgroup members a
week to respond to each item in draft and then again when narrative
has been added to clarify the purpose of tags (i.e. draft Guidelines
text). I'd hesitate to put final timelines in place for this work at
this point, but I do think that things should be taking definite form
by three or four months from now.
I don't have a particular need for feedback from TEI Council at this
point, but I expect that it will be useful to have some as the work
takes shape, and I would particularly anticipate the need for other
eyes than the workgroup to look at page-information and
sourceDescription tagsets..
Hope this is the kind of info you want.
Murray McGillivray
Christian Wittern wrote:
>Dear Murray,
>
>I hope this message finds you in good spirits.
>
>It's me again, from the TEI Council. The Council will hold another
>teleconference next week. I would appreciate if you could give me a
>short update on the progress of the work you made within the PB
>workgroup, including any problems you had or questions you would like
>to ask the council members.
>
>All the best,
>
>Christian
>
>
>
>
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 21 2006 - 02:30:42 EST
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 16:39:17 +0900
TEI Council Members and Editors:
This is the agenda for the first conference call in 2006 of the TEI
Council, scheduled to be held Friday, February 24th, 2006 at 1200 UTC.
(John Walsh will post instructions on how to connect separately)
Please read through the following, in advance of the call.
Expected members to participate:
Syd Bauman, Alejandro Bia, David Birnbaum, Lou Burnard, James
Cummings, Matthew Driscoll, Dot Porter,Sebastian Rahtz, Laurent
Romary, Susan Schreibman, Conal Tuohy, John Walsh, Christian Wittern,
Matthew Zimmerman
(please alert me if I did forget somebody!)
In addition to the voice connection, we also expect to communicate via
IRC. Instructions to connect are as follows (quoted from James
Cumming's message):
Ok, on the day of the council call I'll set up a password (or 'key')
protected channel called #tei-council the joining instructions are the
same and I'd still suggest joining the #tei-c one. Once there type:
/join #tei-council 2expensive
and in most IRC clients that will get you there.
(instructions also at: http://www.tei-c.org.uk/wiki/index.php/IRC)
Agenda:
1) Review of the minutes and action items (10 min)
Minutes of the last meeting (2005-12-16) are at
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm21.xml?style=printable
To speed up the review of action items, *please report to the
council list* before the call as far as possible!
------------------------------------------------------------
2) Review of WG etc. progress (10 min) :
PB (see report from Murray McGillivray)
PERS Matthew Driscoll
------------------------------------------------------------
3) P5 progress: (20 min)
-----------------------------------------------------
4) Other business (5 minutes)
TBA
-----------------------------------------------------
5) Meetings: ( 10 minutes)
Next teleconference: Mid April, please have your diarys ready.
TEI Day in Kyoto 2006; Council meeting
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Tue Feb 21 2006 - 02:39:24 EST
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:06:37 +0000
>> I dont agree. you specify the encoding that your document uses.
>
> But you are always free to use any codepoint with numeric references.
> These NCRs are to *Unicode* not to the declared encoding.
agreed. but the non-entity characters are in the declared encoding
> So what you
> declare is a subset.
I guess everything is a subset of unicode, yes
>> Most parsers will transcode it, but do not have to.
>>
> Show me one that does not transcode. Life would be pretty hard then,
> I assume.
they all transcode; but they don't all support all encodings
> My friend uses CCCII, the Chinese Character Coding for Information
> Interchange defined in Taiwan 1985. There is also more recently the
> TRON character set in Japan, which is used in PC like operating
> systems and cell phones.
and these are not subsets of Unicode?
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
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Received on Tue Feb 21 2006 - 05:08:11 EST
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:29:46 -0500
Hi all,
Please see below for conference call instructions.
John
--- You have been invited to participate in a Conference Call on 02/24/2006 from 12:00:00 to 14:00:00 UCT. The Conference Access Information is listed below: Conf Id: 2947 Date: 12/16/2005 Begin Time: 12:00:00 UCT End Time: 14:00:00 UCT Voice Status: Active Announcement Entry: Tone Only Exit: Tone Only Access Type: PIN Attendee Type: Guest Phone Number: (812) 856-3600 PIN: 000920# This email was automatically generated by the IU UITS Conference system. Please do not reply to this message. For conferencing assistance please call 812-855-4848. -- | John A. Walsh | Associate Director for Projects and Services, Digital Library Program | Associate Librarian, University Libraries | Adjunct Associate Professor, Department of English | Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405 | Voice:812-855-8758 Fax:812-856-2062
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:56:38 +0100
Dear Council members,
The preliminary report of the Personography group, based on research done by
Eva Wedervang-Jensen, is now available for your perusal at http://www.tei-
c.org/Activities/PERS/persw02.xml. Please note that this is still very much
work in progress; there have been some formatting problems, in particular with
the tables, but I hope to have these sorted out before long.
Matthew
M. J. Driscoll
Arnamagn?an Institute
University of Copenhagen
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Received on Wed Feb 22 2006 - 04:56:51 EST
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 12:34:34 +0900
Dear council members,
This is an update on the state of planing for our Kyoto meeting.
I am planning a public event called "TEI Day 2006 in Kyoto" and asked
the TEI Board if they were willing to co-host it. This will be on
Wednesday May 17.
OHYA Kazuo is helping me with getting people involved. We now have
three presentations in Japanese in the morning, are planning for a
poster session after lunch (yes, yes!!) and will have five
presentations from Conal, Sebastian, Matthew, Lou OR Syd and James in
the afternoon, details tbd.
It would be very good if all of you think about a poster
presentation -- this is probably the best way to get into conversation
with the audience and also to have more and diverse things presented.
The Council meeting itself will then be on May 18 and 19.
*IMPORTANT* Please give me your travel schedules as soon as possible.
This is especially true for those mentioned above, since your travel
will be covered by my Institute and we will make the room bookings
etc. For the others: If you would like me to help you with the
booking, please indicate so and give me the schedule, including
arrival, departure, number of nights, number of guests etc. I
learned that May is high season for school trips to Kyoto (which is
in fact true throughout the year), so it is important to make the
reservations as soon as possible.
Looking forward to see all of you here in Kyoto soon,
All the best
Christian
-- Christian Wittern Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University 47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Wed Feb 22 2006 - 22:35:10 EST
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:52:25 -0500
> I see how introducing these [empty model.div1, model.div2, etc.]
> classes might help address the concerns of those who want to be
> able to tell from the name of an element what its hierarchic
> position is. I don't see how that helps with the fact that if the
> topmost classes (div0 or div1 as was) are empty you will wind up
> with a non-deterministic content model.
> The second problem seems to me more serious.
I don't think it helps at all in the sense that solving this problem
will still be a pain in the necks of the 'class' subcommittee members
who will try to make this work. But it does help in the sense that if
& when we have a solution, the user will get a system with the
solution in place up front.
That is, in the current system the element is already present:
- users that want it have no work to do, but
- those FAND sympathizers who want to get rid of 'em have a lot of
confusing work to do.
In the proposed system, the element is not present:
- users that want it have a small bit of almost trivial work to do,
and
- those FAND sympathizers who don't want 'em have nothing to do.
Presuming the world is divided 50/50 between FAND sympathizers and
numbered-div-huggers, the proposed system involves a lot less user
effort (at the up-front cost of our effort).
And no, I don't have any proposal in mind for how we're going to make
non-deterministic content models work in the proposed system, but I
think it may be worth considering special-casing the DTD and XSD
generating code.
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Received on Thu Feb 23 2006 - 15:52:31 EST
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:05:26 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
> And no, I don't have any proposal in mind for how we're going to make
> non-deterministic content models work in the proposed system, but I
> think it may be worth considering special-casing the DTD and XSD
> generating code.
FWIW, there is no XSD-generated code per se, its all done with trang.
the ideal answer is a much more thorough odd2odd process, which
would remove all ambiguities. I freely confess, I don't think I could
write it myself.
other alternatives:
1. pure FAND: kill numbered divs now and forever. anyone who wants
them back writes their own content model
2. loosen the current content model to allow interleaved
and
mental effort and time spent protecting people from being dumb?
2a. do 2, but add a schematron rule to say you can't have div and
div1|divo in the same document
3. trap the situation in Roma code ad hoc
I really really don't want to do 3. if I can help it :-{
-- Sebastian Rahtz Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431 OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk _______________________________________________ tei-council mailing list tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council Received on Thu Feb 23 2006 - 16:07:10 EST
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:25:28 -0500
> FWIW, there is no XSD-generated code per se, its all done with
> trang.
I know. The special-casing might have to be hacking up the RelaxNG
before it's handed to trang for XSD conversion.
> 1. pure FAND: kill numbered divs now and forever. anyone who wants
> them back writes their own content model
> 2. loosen the current content model to allow interleaved > 2a. do 2, but add a schematron rule to say you can't have div and
> 3. trap the situation in Roma code ad hoc
4. Fix odd2odd so that DTD generation is non-deterministic, and tell
_______________________________________________
>> 2. loosen the current content model to allow interleaved >
_______________________________________________
> 4. Nested divs are a concept invented by computer scientists, comparable
> speaking for the people
Sebastian
------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
> I have finished up a somewhat fast-and-lousy first draft of the notes
_______________________________________________
> - " ??_NEED_URL_HERE_??." http://" ->
> I don't think this represents the discussion accurately. The idea
> - "report document" -> report
> "however, he does not want to post it to TEI-L until these
> - Under P5, I would like the record to show that I specifically
>> - Under P5, I would like the record to show that I specifically
Figures/Tables/Graphics:
Nets:
[1] the conversion to Subversion has started, by the way. Watch
> -James
_______________________________________________
--
***************************************
Dot Porter, Program Coordinator
Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities
University of Kentucky
351 William T. Young Library
Lexington, KY 40506
dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549
***************************************
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Received on Fri Mar 24 2006 - 11:37:51 EST
There's a commonality between _______________________________________________
http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/tag.xq?name=join has an example which mentions the attribute targOrder, but there seemed to be no definition of this attribute. I guess the revision of the examples is another item on a future agenda :-)
There's a commonality between _______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
Christian Wittern wrote:
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
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Received on Sun Apr 16 2006 - 14:41:21 EDT
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
--
***************************************
Dot Porter, Program Coordinator
Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities
University of Kentucky
351 William T. Young Library
Lexington, KY 40506
dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549
***************************************
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Received on Sun Apr 16 2006 - 15:07:06 EDT
--
***************************************
Dot Porter, Program Coordinator
Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities
University of Kentucky
351 William T. Young Library
Lexington, KY 40506
dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549
***************************************
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Received on Wed Apr 19 2006 - 11:45:22 EDT
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Wed Apr 19 2006 - 22:25:03 EDT
In message <96f3df640604190845s431c95bcqe0950b4b8524f5a3_at_mail.gmail.com> "Dot
> On the other hand, must all empty element necessarily be
> E.g., if you are transcribing a long-winded speech by a boring
Phone Number: (812) 856-3600
> How does one do this kind of tape break at the moment? ID reference
Expected members to participate:
Phone Number: (812) 856-3600
Agenda:
-----------------------------------------------------
--
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Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Fri Apr 21 2006 - 20:19:04 EDT
Christian Wittern wrote:
> I have now uploaded a summary of the comments received from Council
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Mon Apr 24 2006 - 21:15:47 EDT
---------------------------------------------------------
-------- Original Message --------
Hello List,
Syd Bauman wrote:
P.S.
> My position is that biblStruct is adequate for TEI and if folks
MZ
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
Agenda:
------------------------------------------------------------
4) Standoff Markup review, cf
5) Review of the class system
------------------------------------------------------------
7) Roadmap, schedule??
8) Meetings:
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Mon May 08 2006 - 02:16:19 EDT
_______________________________________________
_______________________________________________
--
***************************************
Dot Porter, Program Coordinator
Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities
University of Kentucky
351 William T. Young Library
Lexington, KY 40506
dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549
***************************************
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Received on Wed May 10 2006 - 07:28:36 EDT
Dot Porter wrote:
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Wed May 10 2006 - 18:45:14 EDT
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Wed May 10 2006 - 18:48:10 EDT
Alternatively, if you do not want to go by bus, there is also the
1. Regularization of Names
2. Schematron
greetings from muggy kyoto!
----- Forwarded message from "Chris" Hello tei-c.org,
Home Dehumidifier Discount
----- End of forwarded message from "Chris"
-----Original Message-----
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
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Received on Wed May 17 2006 - 08:34:10 EDT
2) Review of WG etc. progress
5) Review of the class system
6) Other proposed changes:
7) Roadmap, schedule??
8) Meetings:
--
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Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Wed May 17 2006 - 18:57:01 EDT
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Thu May 18 2006 - 18:43:17 EDT
+++Drama Module+++
_______________________________________________
> Two issues have been raised in regard to this, and we need to take
_______________________________________________
> Personally, I think that route 2) is most in line with where the TEI
--
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Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 08:29:43 EDT
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 08:43:27 EDT
--
Sebastian Rahtz
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 09:30:43 EDT
> So if we accept that msdesc is currently broke, we have a choice:
> 2) use classes, with the proposed new meaning of what a "class" is
> 3) introduce and implement module dependencies, and accept that it
Sebastian has not mentioned another solution:
> Each of these routes is possible. The simplest is 1), which
> no work has been done, but it is not that hard to make Roma follow
> However, it will require serious work to look at guarenteed removal
> *Secondly*, if we do take route 2), it has serious implications for
> If you add a dependency in "msdesc" on "namesdates", but the user
> sure. if you define what the precise behaviour of module dependency
> that's module dependency...
> I don't disagree with that choice. But it leaves the TEI making
> surely, I can do that. its just "people who bought this module also
> I think I'd agree; but would note that supporting it there is
--
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 12:52:09 EDT
--
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 15:22:49 EDT
I also really have a problem with the order of all the "sequence"
I hope this is making sense.
--
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Received on Wed May 24 2006 - 04:37:44 EDT
>
> justify immense mental effort and time spent protecting people
> from being dumb?
Perhaps not *this* particular expenditure, but yes, in the overall
picture our mental effort to protect people from being dumb is effort
well spent.
> div1|div0 in the same [
This might be a good solution.
I don't understand where & how you're talking about trapping, but
since you "really really don't want to do" it, perhaps it doesn't
matter.
XSD users "can't do that". (Alright, probably not a good idea,
esp. since numbered-div-huggers are often XSD users.) Sigh.
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Received on Thu Feb 23 2006 - 16:25:32 EST
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:38:34 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>
>
> 1. pure FAND: kill numbered divs now and forever. anyone who wants
> them back writes their own content model
>
> 2. loosen the current content model to allow interleaved
>
> justify immense mental effort and time spent protecting people from
> being dumb?
>
> 2a. do 2, but add a schematron rule to say you can't have div and
> div1|divo in the same document
>
> 3. trap the situation in Roma code ad hoc
>
> I really really don't want to do 3. if I can help it :-{
>
Seems clear to me that of these 2/a is the least worst solution. We
just define model.divLike with members div, div0, div1 by default. FAND
members can remove numbered divs with impunity, and the cntent model for
body (etc) references model.divLike.
The prohibition against mixing div and div1 in the same document needs
to be stated in the text explicitly. This isnt as annoying as it sounds,
since of course the content model for div, div0, and div1 doesn't have
to refer to model.divLike but to div, div1, or div2, explicitly.
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Received on Thu Feb 23 2006 - 16:43:58 EST
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:42:40 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
>
> I know. The special-casing might have to be hacking up the RelaxNG
> before it's handed to trang for XSD conversion.
I used to do this in the pre odd2odd days. I agree, its possible
>>
>> justify immense mental effort and time spent protecting people
>> from being dumb?
>
> Perhaps not *this* particular expenditure, but yes, in the overall
> picture our mental effort to protect people from being dumb is effort
> well spent.
agreed. but there's "dumb" and "dumber" and "dumbest". people who
interleave
> 4. Fix odd2odd so that DTD generation is non-deterministic
if you can work out how to do that,
you can also write the "simplifyForXSD" script. I am sure
a decent computer scientist could knock it off in a few weeks.
Get The Great Durand to set his best and brightest on the job....
--
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Received on Thu Feb 23 2006 - 16:44:15 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:10:02 +0900
"Lou's Laptop"
> The prohibition against mixing div and div1 in the same document needs
> to be stated in the text explicitly. This isnt as annoying as it
> sounds, since of course the content model for div, div0, and div1
> doesn't have to refer to model.divLike but to div, div1, or div2,
> explicitly.
Shouldn't that be model.div1Like, model.div2Like etc, since we want to
be able to allow the renaming of "div2" as "chapter"?
Christian
--
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Received on Thu Feb 23 2006 - 19:10:09 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 00:12:34 +0000
Christian Wittern wrote:
>"Lou's Laptop"
>
>
>
>>The prohibition against mixing div and div1 in the same document needs
>>to be stated in the text explicitly. This isnt as annoying as it
>>sounds, since of course the content model for div, div0, and div1
>>doesn't have to refer to model.divLike but to div, div1, or div2,
>>explicitly.
>>
>>
>
>Shouldn't that be model.div1Like, model.div2Like etc, since we want to
>be able to allow the renaming of "div2" as "chapter"?
>
>Christian
>
>
>
Well, possibly. I'm rather unconvinced about the wisdom of that, myself.
If you think that numbered divs are a bad idea, why do you think named
divs are any better?
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Received on Thu Feb 23 2006 - 19:18:03 EST
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:20:09 -0500
> >Shouldn't that be model.div1Like, model.div2Like etc, since we
> >want to be able to allow the renaming of "div2" as "chapter"?
> Well, possibly. I'm rather unconvinced about the wisdom of that,
> myself. If you think that numbered divs are a bad idea, why do you
> think named divs are any better?
Oh, I think named are much better. Seems to me that vanilla
provide recursion and flexibility, whereas named division elements
have the advantage of promoting the logical structure to a first-
class object, as it were, and of permitting constraint based on what
a content object is, rather than or in addition to only its nesting
depth.[1] Numbered
structure is relegated to being a second-class citizen, and the
flexibility provided by type= removes most the advantages of the
rigidity provided by the content restrictions.[2]
But it is, of course, only syntactic sugar, really. If everyone at my
project agrees that
"chapters", and
content model of
exactly the same as agreeing to use other arbitrary strings, say
"part", "chap", and "sect", and modifying the content of
that it *must* have a .
However, the model.div2Like class solution (whether it is initially
populated or not) also permits the user to have multiple named
elements at the same level. So if I am writing a TEI schema for a
cookbook, I can assign "chapter" to be the
to be the
"suggested-wine", & "discussion" can all be
choose to go about rewriting content models to provide structure, if
I wanted, or I could just leave 'em as they are, either enforcing the
structure with Schematron or some other non-TEI-schema process, or
not worry about the order and number of the
Notes
-----
[1] Whether that constraint be provided by the schema, a Schematron
add-on, the stylesheets, whatever.
[2] Although you can get around this by specifying a fixed type= for
each level of numbered div. I.e., in DTD syntax:
etc.
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Received on Thu Feb 23 2006 - 20:20:13 EST
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 23:27:26 -0500
Dear Counselors,
> the ideal answer is a much more thorough odd2odd process, which
> would remove all ambiguities. I freely confess, I don't think I could
> write it myself.
>
> other alternatives:
>
> 1. pure FAND: kill numbered divs now and forever. anyone who wants
> them back writes their own content model
>
> 2. loosen the current content model to allow interleaved
>
> justify immense mental effort and time spent protecting people from
> being dumb?
>
> 2a. do 2, but add a schematron rule to say you can't have div and
> div1|divo in the same document
>
> 3. trap the situation in Roma code ad hoc
>
> I really really don't want to do 3. if I can help it :-{
Er ... what is the opinion within Council about whether numbered divs
are a Good Idea?
I ask because Council is charged with guiding the technical development
of the Guidelines, and if we, as members of Council, conclude
overwhelmingly that numbered divs are a Bad Idea, it would seem
appropriate for us to implement #1. That doesn't prevent anyone who
wants them from introducing them ad hoc, after all; it just means that
Council thinks they're a Bad Idea, and we wouldn't be fulfilling our
oversight responsibilities if, having reached that conclusion, we
nonetheless facilitated their deployment. #1 would prevent people from
being dumb, but it would do so without immense mental effort and time.
Transformation of numbered divs to unnumbered ones is much easier than
the reverse, so abolishing numbered divs would not erect insurmountable
obstacles with respect to legacy documents.
The preceding paragraph makes sense only if Council very strongly
believes that numbered divs are a Bad Idea. Should we discover, instead,
that there is significant support for numbered divs within Council, #1
would be be inappropriate. Since we have a conference call coming up
very shortly, would that be a good time to take a quick straw vote?
Best,
David
djbpitt+tei_at_pitt.edu
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Received on Thu Feb 23 2006 - 23:27:28 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 22:47:23 +1300
David J Birnbaum wrote:
> The preceding paragraph makes sense only if Council very strongly
> believes that numbered divs are a Bad Idea. Should we discover, instead,
> that there is significant support for numbered divs within Council, #1
> would be be inappropriate. Since we have a conference call coming up
> very shortly, would that be a good time to take a quick straw vote?
Personally I don't like them, and I'm pretty sure(?) that no Council members are holding a candle for numbered divs. Given the sheer amount of hassle involved; the extra complexity in the model; even a probable requirement to introduce tricky special case handling into the schema compiler ... it seems madness to me, personally, to keep hold of them, absent some pretty strong reason to hang onto them. Certainly anyone migrating from P4 to P5 will have significant work to do, upgrading their software systems to handle e.g. namespaces, etc, and this change would surely be the least of their worries. So I don't think that migration itself should be seen as an obstacle.
Regarding "named" divs such as chapter, section, would those introducing such customisations wish to add them to a div2like class or a div3like class? Or would they be divlike or merely classless?
>From my experience, the only rationale I've heard for numbered divs is that they make it convenient to go from the start of a div2 (for instance) to the end of that corresponding div2, by searching for the , where the use of un-numbered divs would make that impossible. Are there other justifications? Would it help to look at what the benefits of numbered divs are perceived to be?
Cheers
Con
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Received on Fri Feb 24 2006 - 04:47:46 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:11:55 +0000
> David J Birnbaum wrote:
> The preceding paragraph makes sense only if Council very strongly believes
> that numbered divs are a Bad Idea. Should we discover, instead, that there
> is significant support for numbered divs within Council, #1 would be be
> inappropriate. Since we have a conference call coming up very shortly,
> would that be a good time to take a quick straw vote?
I'm happy to lose numbered divs.
> From my experience, the only rationale I've heard for numbered divs is that
> they make it convenient to go from the start of a div2 (for instance) to
> the end of that corresponding div2, by searching for the , where the
> use of un-numbered divs would make that impossible. Are there other
> justifications? Would it help to look at what the benefits of numbered divs
> are perceived to be?
I think the perceived benefit is that someone might want an easy way to
constrain say sections to only appear within chapters etc. With the built in
restriction that div2 can only appear inside div1 they get this with no extra
work. This is why I like the empty-class suggestion (if an easy solution to the
technical problems can be found). As those who really want to use them can add
them back in, and name them. (In my mind, _if_ you are going to have them then
renaming them sensible things for your project is better than leaving them
div1/div2.)
An anonymous communication from a FAND supporter suggests that at very least we
could consider sorting out the div0 versus div1 problem. If numbered divs stay,
then being draconian and saying they all start at div1 doesn't seem too bad to me.
-James
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Received on Fri Feb 24 2006 - 05:12:09 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:26:32 +0000
Since I am most likely not going to be in the conference call, in reviewing the
action items from last meeting
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm21.xml?style=printable I see that I am meant to
have reviewed and disseminated that TEI CVS Readme document.
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcw06.xml Both Lou and I posted about this on TEI-L
on the 22/23 Dec. inviting comments. None have been received. I've glanced
through it again and updated a couple things, but it is generally stable. (But,
as always, if anyone has any suggested changes I'm happy to make them.)
Should this be moved to another part of the website, if so where?
-James
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Received on Fri Feb 24 2006 - 05:26:45 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:43:03 +0000
M. J. Driscoll wrote:
> Dear Council members,
>
> The preliminary report of the Personography group, based on research done by
> Eva Wedervang-Jensen, is now available for your perusal at http://www.tei-
> c.org/Activities/PERS/persw02.xml. Please note that this is still very much
> work in progress; there have been some formatting problems, in particular with
> the tables, but I hope to have these sorted out before long.
I think this is a useful and interesting report (and when you it is ready I will
be pointing several interested parties to it).
I would like to add a gloss on one part, which is that the LDS's GEDCOM XML beta
seems to have basically frozen (in that little work has been done on it since
the creation of the initial draft in 2002). It has, unfortunately, been met
with a most deafening silence by the genealogical community at large. Those
already interested in XML, like the participants of the GenealogyXML mailing
list, see that all it really does is take the previous (and extremely
widely-used by almost every genealogical software program) GEDCOM standards
(esp. 5 or 5.5) and turn it into XML. It doesn't really exploit the
possibilities of being in XML. It's take-up in commercial software and thus by
the genealogical community is extremely limited.
I appreciate the document couldn't cover all the possibilities for formats out
there. Another format it may have wished to look at is the (zipped XML) format
used by the GRAMPS software.[1] (gramps.sourceforge.net)
-James
[1] But that said GRAMPS basically uses:
which really doesn't add much.
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Received on Fri Feb 24 2006 - 05:43:15 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:06:28 +0000
I like numbered divs.
1. They make the code easier to read. eg
they make it easier to find the end of the section you are in
2. It is what most other major document systems do
3. It is much easier to write processing code (in something like CSS,
nested divs are a pain)
4. Nested divs are a concept invented by computer scientists, comparable
to the silly way they count in 8s or 12s, or start numbering with
0. they
mean nothing to real humans
5. No-one really does document re-use anyway
peaking for the people
Sebastian
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Received on Fri Feb 24 2006 - 06:06:34 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:08:58 +0000
This discussion raises an interesting political point (if that is not an
oxymoron)...
About the only credible argument I have ever managed to find to persuade
institutions to fork out money to join the TEI Consortium is that
membership gives you a vote, and that a vote enables you to influence
(NB not determine) the technical direction of the TEI by electing the
right stuff onto the TEI Council.
The Council is not formally an executive, but a body which endorses and
approves recommendations ultimately decided by the Board (it exists "to
collect, propose, evaluate, and implement editorial changes to the TEI
DTD (and its derivatives), to produce up-to-date documentation for the
TEI, and to evaluate agreements for official TEI-C training and services
and make recommendations to the TEI-C Board" it says in the by laws)
In making those recommendations and endorsements, I think that it's
really important for Council members to bear in mind their role as
representatives of the TEI membership as a whole. It would be a bad
thing for the Council to make recommendations contrary to the clear
wishes of the majority of the TEI membership, in so far as those can be
determined or are expressed.
So, in the present discussion, if all Council members individually and
personally recommend the abolitions of numbered divs, I hope they will
be prepared to defend that decision on TEI-L and to the TEI Board. I
also hope they make such a recommendation having to the best of their
ability taken into consideration the opinions of those people and
institutions which voted for them.
I should make clear that my personal opinion, if I was inventing the
Guidelines from scratch now, would be with the abolitionists. But I am
also aware of a sizeable section of the TEI community for whom the
disappearance of
abandon P4. We need to prepare for that struggle!
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Received on Fri Feb 24 2006 - 06:07:11 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:08:01 +0000
James Cummings wrote:
>An anonymous communication from a FAND supporter suggests that at very least we
>could consider sorting out the div0 versus div1 problem. If numbered divs stay,
>then being draconian and saying they all start at div1 doesn't seem too bad to me.
>
>
yeah! start at 1! I like it.
ebastian
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Received on Fri Feb 24 2006 - 06:08:04 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:20:30 +0000
Thanks for the catechism, Sebastian... I have added the needful
responses below. Are we all ready to sing from the same hymn sheet?
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> I like numbered divs.
>
... but I know this is foolish and i will mend my ways
> 1. They make the code easier to read. eg
> they make it easier to find the end of the section you are in
.... because I am using the wrong tool for the job
> 2. It is what most other major document systems do
... er i don't think Word has any divs at all, much less numbered ones
> 3. It is much easier to write processing code (in something like CSS,
> nested divs are a pain)
... which is why xslt is a better tool for the job
> to the silly way they count in 8s or 12s, or start numbering with 0.
> they
> mean nothing to real humans
... same argument applies to xml in general
> 5. No-one really does document re-use anyway
>
... because numbered divs come back to haunt them
>
> Sebastian
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>
>
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Received on Fri Feb 24 2006 - 06:18:43 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:31:47 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
>> 1. They make the code easier to read. eg
>> they make it easier to find the end of the section you are in
>
>
> .... because I am using the wrong tool for the job
its not our job to dictate what tools to use. please explain
to me how, in emacs, to quickly see my section depth?
>
>> 2. It is what most other major document systems do
>
>
> ... er i don't think Word has any divs at all, much less numbered ones
Word's styles refer to Heading 1, Heading 2, etc. Thats what people
see. I adduce HTML, LaTeX, Docbook, and DITA (I think)
>
>> 3. It is much easier to write processing code (in something like CSS,
>> nested divs are a pain)
>
>
> ... which is why xslt is a better tool for the job
no, see above about our job.
>> 4. Nested divs are a concept invented by computer scientists, comparable
>> to the silly way they count in 8s or 12s, or start numbering with
>> 0. they
>> mean nothing to real humans
>
>
> ... same argument applies to xml in general
no. XML allows nested structures, it does not say they are good or bad.
>
>> 5. No-one really does document re-use anyway
>>
>
> ... because numbered divs come back to haunt them
no. anyone who does re-use in real life has tools to sort
it for them.
If the TEI Council says "don't use divs cos none of us do, and the tools
we use
are the ones you should use too" we ain't going to get respect.
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Received on Fri Feb 24 2006 - 06:32:01 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 06:49:22 -0500
CW> How to I express this wish in ODD?
SR>
SR>
SR>
SR>
SR>
SR>
SR>
SR>
SR>
Why is the indicated mode= required? I've been tripped up on this
several times, because I thought that mode= was inherited.
If I go back and read TD carefully, will I discover this is clearly
documented, and I was just too eager to dive in before RTFMing?
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Received on Fri Feb 24 2006 - 06:49:25 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:56:43 +0000
Syd Bauman wrote:
>SR>
>SR>
>SR>
>
>SR>
>SR>
>SR>
>SR>
>SR>
>SR>
>
>Why is the indicated mode= required? I've been tripped up on this
>several times, because I thought that mode= was inherited.
>
>If I go back and read TD carefully, will I discover this is clearly
>documented, and I was just too eager to dive in before RTFMing?
>
>
as implemented, @mode is not inherited. whether it
claims to be, I am not sure...
ebastian
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Received on Fri Feb 24 2006 - 06:56:58 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:07:51 -0500
As you may have seen I sent out an announcement of the dates for the
2006 MM to TEI-L and Humanist.
If you have other lists you would like to send it to please let me know.
2006 Text Encoding Initiative Consortium Members' Meeting
October 27-28, 2006
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada.
http://www.tei-c.org
------------------------------------------------
The 2006 TEI-C Members' Meeting will take place October 27 and 28th
in Victoria,
British Columbia, Canada. The gathering is hosted by the
Electronic Textual Cultures Lab and the Humanities Computing and Media
Centre at University of Victoria and will be held at the Hotel Grand
Pacific in Victoria
http://www.hotelgrandpacific.com/ . The TEI-C has secured
favorable room rates if you choose to stay there as well.
As in past years the first day of the meeting will consist of a program
of invited speakers. The second day will consist of a poster session,
special interest group meetings, and the TEI-C business meeting at which
our annual elections take place. The meeting is free of charge for
institutional members and subscribers, but attendance is open to
anyone. The
meeting fee charged to non-members and non-subscribers entitles you to
subscriber benefits for the remainder of the calendar year.
More information including a Call for Posters, a Call for Nominations,
and a Call for Registration will follow in the next months, but, in the
meantime, mark your calendar for this exciting event.
If you have any questions please direct your email to info_at_tei-c.org
MZ
_________________
Matthew Zimmerman
Chair
Text Encoding Initiative Consortium
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Received on Fri Feb 24 2006 - 12:07:03 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 17:36:05 +0000
At today's call, I was actioned to make sure this document was
accessible from the P5 pages on the website.
I just checked, and it is already there (first item in the second
bulleted list if you go to www.tei-c.org/P5/). I therefore claim the UK
world speed record for discharging actions assigned during a telecon.
Lou
James Cummings wrote:
> Since I am most likely not going to be in the conference call, in reviewing the
> action items from last meeting
> http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm21.xml?style=printable I see that I am meant to
> have reviewed and disseminated that TEI CVS Readme document.
> http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcw06.xml Both Lou and I posted about this on TEI-L
> on the 22/23 Dec. inviting comments. None have been received. I've glanced
> through it again and updated a couple things, but it is generally stable. (But,
> as always, if anyone has any suggested changes I'm happy to make them.)
>
> Should this be moved to another part of the website, if so where?
>
> -James
>
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>
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Received on Fri Feb 24 2006 - 12:34:19 EST
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:07:00 -0500
I have finished up a somewhat fast-and-lousy first draft of the notes
from our teleconference Friday. Even if you don't have time to read
the whole ting immediately (and it's not that long), please take a
look, searching for your initials and the string "??". Please post
any corrections, omissions, suggestions, etc., either to the list or
send directly to me.
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm22.xml?style=printable
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Received on Sat Feb 25 2006 - 22:07:05 EST
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 12:53:02 +0000
"SB reports this was accomplished. It was agreed that Council members
should review the current drafts listed in Syd's summary, and SB should
revise them based on comments received."
- I think the necessary actions are (a) Council Members should review
the wg outputs; (b) Syd should check the extent to which the outputs had
been incorporated into SA and elsewhere in the Guidelines (c) the
editors should agree on whether SA was now available for Council review
- " ??_NEED_URL_HERE_??." http://" ->
http://www.tei-c.org.uk/wiki/index.php/FacsimileMarkup
- "It was agreed to follow LB's counter-proposal, using e-mail on the
entire Council list. It was further agreed that rather than processing
modules in some sequential order, each member of Council will be
assigned some modules for which to propose what the class structure
should be. Action CW w/ LB's help by 2006-03-04: create list of modules
needing ?class? attention
Action CW by 2006-03-11: assign modules to Council members"
I don't think this represents the discussion accurately. The idea was to
request Council members (individually or as groups) to volunteer to
"adopt" a module or two for classificatory activity, having first
checked out the current state of play in edw84. They should then then
send their suggestions to CW, who would publish a definitive set of
assignments in consultation with LB. These tasks need to be done fairly
quickly, and I thought we had agreed on some dates, but I foolishly
didn't write them down.
- "report document" -> report
"however, he does not want to post it to TEI-L until these formatting
problems have been fixed." I don't remember Matthew saying that. Did he?
The formatting doesnt look so dusty to me -- it's quite readable anyway!
- "CT or LB to send JG name to MD.? in my notes, but I have no idea what
it means. HELP??)"
It means nothing to me I'm afraid.
- Under P5, I would like the record to show that I specifically
apologised for not having produced a progress report for this meeting
and promisedn to circulate one for inclusion in the minutes. Which I did.
> from our teleconference Friday. Even if you don't have time to read
> the whole ting immediately (and it's not that long), please take a
> look, searching for your initials and the string "??". Please post
> any corrections, omissions, suggestions, etc., either to the list or
> send directly to me.
> http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm22.xml?style=printable
>
>
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Received on Sun Feb 26 2006 - 07:49:53 EST
Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:44:37 -0500
> - I think the necessary actions are
> (a) Council Members should review the wg outputs;
> (b) Syd should check the extent to which the outputs had been
> incorporated into SA and elsewhere in the Guidelines
I don't think I really need to check much:
* SO W 01 has been superceded
* SO W 02 provides rationale, not details, but that which it
discusses is in P5.
* SO W 03 has been incorporated into P5
* The suggestions made in SO W 04 have not been incorporated into P5
at all, and as far as I know no one except me (and perhaps David
Durand and Lou Burnard) has even read this important document
* The meat of SO W 05 is advice and examples of linguistic corpora,
which has not been folded into P5 at all, mostly because it needs
some attention from someone with a stronger linguistic background
than I
* SO W 06 is completely worked into P5 now
* SO W 07 is in the exact same position as Chris' other paper, SO W
04, in that no one has provided feedback on it at all, and
therefore I have made no attempt to put it into P5. The main
difference is I don't think this one is a high priority. (I suspect
there just aren't that many people encoding graphs at all, let
alone with TEI.)
* SO W 08 has been incorporated into P5
* SO W 09, like SO W 02, provides a summary discussion for Council,
not suggested additions to the Guidlines. Nonetheless, IIRC
everything it discusses is in P5 now.
> http://www.tei-c.org.uk/wiki/index.php/FacsimileMarkup
Thanks! Fixed.
> was to request Council members (individually or as groups) to
> volunteer to "adopt" a module or two for classificatory activity,
> having first checked out the current state of play in edw84. They
> should then then send their suggestions to CW, who would publish a
> definitive set of assignments in consultation with LB.
You're quite right, I forgot the "folks are supposed to state which
module they'd like to adopt" part. But I guess I'm a bit confused:
are Council members supposed to volunteer for a module by going
through EDW84? Weren't you and Christian going to provide a concise
list of modules and a rough guestimate of how much work each needed
for Council members to use in deciding which module they'd like to
adopt? (I thought CW said he'd do that, and you said you'd help as,
now that you've put in all this effort on ST, you've a good notion of
how much work each module is likely to require .)
> These tasks need to be done fairly quickly, and I thought we had
> agreed on some dates, but I foolishly didn't write them down.
I did, though. "1 week" for whatever the intermediate stage was, and
"the next week" for completing the adoption process, which is why I
wrote it down as 2006-03-11.
What I wish we had done is also hammer out a date by which module
adopters should post their suggestions -- 2006-03-25?
Fixed, thanks.
> formatting problems have been fixed." I don't remember Matthew
> saying that. Did he? The formatting doesnt look so dusty to me --
> it's quite readable anyway!
Yes, he did. But now that I've taken a more careful look at it, I'm
with Lou -- while it may not be perfect, it's not that bad. No one
expects tables that need to be that wide and contain all sorts of
markup like that to look wonderful, anyway.
> apologised for not having produced a progress report for this
> meeting and promisedn to circulate one for inclusion in the
> minutes. Which I did.
And did very rapidly, I will let everyone know. I've included a
statement to this effect in the first para under "P5", let me know if
it's satisfactory.
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Received on Sun Feb 26 2006 - 09:44:41 EST
Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:11:43 +0900
Syd Bauman
>
>> I don't think this represents the discussion accurately. The idea
>> was to request Council members (individually or as groups) to
>> volunteer to "adopt" a module or two for classificatory activity,
>> having first checked out the current state of play in edw84. They
>> should then then send their suggestions to CW, who would publish a
>> definitive set of assignments in consultation with LB.
>
> You're quite right, I forgot the "folks are supposed to state which
> module they'd like to adopt" part. But I guess I'm a bit confused:
> are Council members supposed to volunteer for a module by going
> through EDW84? Weren't you and Christian going to provide a concise
> list of modules and a rough guestimate of how much work each needed
> for Council members to use in deciding which module they'd like to
> adopt? (I thought CW said he'd do that, and you said you'd help as,
> now that you've put in all this effort on ST, you've a good notion of
> how much work each module is likely to require .)
I am with Lou here. The discussion ended with the suggestion that we
take the list Syd provided on 2005-12-31 and ask Council members to
articulate for which of these modules they would like to investigate
and suggest improvements in light of The P5 Way of Doing Things(TM) to
their class structure.
>
>> These tasks need to be done fairly quickly, and I thought we had
>> agreed on some dates, but I foolishly didn't write them down.
>
> I did, though. "1 week" for whatever the intermediate stage was, and
> "the next week" for completing the adoption process, which is why I
> wrote it down as 2006-03-11.
Indeed. So please send me lists of modules you are interested in. The
first week was to collect the wishlist, the second week to digest them
and send out the assignments, at least that was my understanding.
>
> What I wish we had done is also hammer out a date by which module
> adopters should post their suggestions -- 2006-03-25?
Fine with me. That is pretty optimistic though.
>> "however, he does not want to post it to TEI-L until these
>> formatting problems have been fixed." I don't remember Matthew
>> saying that. Did he? The formatting doesnt look so dusty to me --
>> it's quite readable anyway!
>
> Yes, he did. But now that I've taken a more careful look at it, I'm
> with Lou -- while it may not be perfect, it's not that bad. No one
> expects tables that need to be that wide and contain all sorts of
> markup like that to look wonderful, anyway.
It shows some funny Kanji characters when I look at that page in my
system here. I was assuming Matthew wanted to get rid of those first.
>> apologised for not having produced a progress report for this
>> meeting and promisedn to circulate one for inclusion in the
>> minutes. Which I did.
>
> And did very rapidly, I will let everyone know. I've included a
> statement to this effect in the first para under "P5", let me know if
> it's satisfactory.
Thanks Syd, the notes look fine to me,
Christian
--
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Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Sun Feb 26 2006 - 19:11:50 EST
Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 11:34:43 +0900
Dear Council members,
Syd identified[1] the following module sets, which I think we should
use as a starting point.
Module Sets
------ ----
* gaiji, nets, figures
* transcr, textcrit, namesdates
* analysis, corpus, spoken (and personography, if it exists by then)
* iso-fs, declarefs
* drama, tagdocs, linking
* msdescription (perhaps MD & DB should be included in con call)
* dictionaries
I would now like to ask you to look at this list and at EDW84[2] and
then decide which of the module(s) you would like to adopt. Please
send me your adption requests by Friday 2006-03-03.
All the best,
Christian
[1] http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2005/001164.html
[2] http://www.tei-c.org/Drafts/edw84.xml
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47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Mon Feb 27 2006 - 21:35:21 EST
Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 20:13:39 +0900
Christian Wittern
> I would now like to ask you to look at this list and at EDW84[2] and
> then decide which of the module(s) you would like to adopt. Please
> send me your adption requests by Friday 2006-03-03.
Just a quick reminder.
I have heard from Sebastian, Dot and Susan (thanks!), but are still
waiting for word from the others. As discussed during the conference
call, it is important that we move forward on this quickly. Please
make up your mind and tell me.
ALl the best,
Christian
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Received on Fri Mar 03 2006 - 06:13:48 EST
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:49:41 +0000
Sourceforge now supports, I understand, Subversion as well as CVS for
source code. Who is in favour of making a switch, I wonder?
--
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*Open Source and Sustainability*
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Received on Tue Mar 14 2006 - 16:51:37 EST
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 16:48:27 -0500
> Sourceforge now supports, I understand, Subversion as well as CVS
> for source code. Who is in favour of making a switch, I wonder?
I think I'd be mildly in favor. I.e., no rush, and not if it's too
much effort. But subversion is nicer.
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Received on Sat Mar 18 2006 - 16:48:35 EST
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 18:55:44 +0000
After some discussion between myself, Syd, and Sebastian, we've reached the
conclusion that this would be a propitious time to carry out two fairly major
changes to the way the P5 sources are currently managed and deployed from
sourceforge. I say "major change" but I very much doubt whether anyone except
those actively engaged in updating those sources will ever notice it happen.
There are two parts to the change.
1. We will use the facilities offered at sourceForge for migrating from the now
decidedly passé cms CVS to the much newer better-featured and more
amusingly-named SVN system.
2. We will then change the names of all existing ODD files from their presently
rather obscure and random strings to ones that match the identifier of the
specification element that they contain.
As stated above, unless you are in the habit of daily checking files into the
repository, neither of these changes will affect you. But we thought you'd like
to know anyway.
Why is this a "propitious" time? Because while we are sitting back waiting for
input from the Council on the Class front the sources are not being changed by
us for a few days. And also because we are roughly half way between releases --
if we keep to our current timetable, the next one will be along shortly after
the May meeting.
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Received on Mon Mar 20 2006 - 13:55:47 EST
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:03:30 +0900
Lou Burnard
> After some discussion between myself, Syd, and Sebastian, we've reached the
> conclusion that this would be a propitious time to carry out two fairly major
> changes to the way the P5 sources are currently managed and deployed from
> sourceforge. I say "major change" but I very much doubt whether anyone except
> those actively engaged in updating those sources will ever notice it
> happen.
Thanks for telling us anyway. I think the way the sources are managed
should be decided among the immediately involved (and although I have
not yet started using SVN, I am sure that you considered the
implications of this move well), that is why I kept quiet on this
issue. However, the Council should have a clear image of what is
where and why, so I would like to ask you to give us an executive
summary of the State of P5 once the transition is completed.
> Why is this a "propitious" time? Because while we are sitting back waiting for
> input from the Council on the Class front the sources are not being changed by
> us for a few days.
Which gives me another chance to remind you that we are waiting for
reports on the Great Class Struggle within the next 2 days.
All the best,
Christian
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Received on Wed Mar 22 2006 - 00:04:10 EST
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 09:48:00 +0000
I have just done the first pass at making the TEI Guidelines
deliverables cope with having material in several languages.
During the course of this overhaul, I also switched all
our HTML outputs to use XHTML 1.1, in order to get us
closer to conformance with W3C recs.
If anyone thinks this approach is inherently a bad
idea, please say so now! The result will hit the public
at the next release (early June?).
--
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*Open Source and Sustainability*
10-12 April 2006, Oxford
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk/events/2006-04-10-12/
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
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Received on Thu Mar 23 2006 - 04:50:14 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 00:01:45 +0000
how is everyone else presenting their findings? I have sent in a mail
to the editors, are others doing the same or will they be sent here?
--
Sebastian Rahtz
*Open Source and Sustainability*
10-12 April 2006, Oxford
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk/events/2006-04-10-12/
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
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Received on Thu Mar 23 2006 - 19:04:04 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 00:21:19 +0000
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> how is everyone else presenting their findings? I have sent in a mail
> to the editors, are others doing the same or will they be sent here?
I believe Christian's note specified sending it to the Council list by
midnight GMT tomorrow (friday). Since I will have limited
connectivity leading up to that point I have sent my initial thoughts
to the 3 people I've been working with (and will respond to any
reactions they send me before 10am tomorrow GMT).
Incidentally. Wouldn't it be more useful if
http://www.tei-c.org/Drafts/edw84.xml actual showed the *real* content
models in the 'Content Model' table cell? Currently it does not show
attributes/attribute classes. Although the attribute classes are
mentioned in 'Classes' table cell, individually declared attributes do
not appear and so one must click on the element link (to taq.xq) for
each and every element one is looking at.
-James
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Received on Thu Mar 23 2006 - 19:21:15 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 08:54:14 +0000
Gaiji:
1.
These should be replaced by "macro.glossSeq",
which adds
these elements behave like *Spec in the TD chapter.
The
2. explicitly.
This should be replaced by (model.graphicLike)*,
to allow for
in future (eg sound recordings? video clips?). Whatever
it takes to represent the character.
3.
1. the @role, @rows and @cols attributes of
managed via an attribute class, att.tableDecoration, allowing
for future development.
2. and
This should be replaced by (model.graphicLike)*
[no change]
--
Sebastian Rahtz
*Open Source and Sustainability*
10-12 April 2006, Oxford
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk/events/2006-04-10-12/
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
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Received on Fri Mar 24 2006 - 03:56:21 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:00:14 +0000
James Cummings wrote:
> Incidentally. Wouldn't it be more useful if
> http://www.tei-c.org/Drafts/edw84.xml actual showed the *real* content
> models in the 'Content Model' table cell?
You may well be right.
it's in CVS[1] at P5/Utilities/listcontentmodels.xsl
if anyone would like to work on it. I am afraid I can't....
this space. fingers crossed, no more work will be committed to the
CVS tree.
--
Sebastian Rahtz
*Open Source and Sustainability*
10-12 April 2006, Oxford
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk/events/2006-04-10-12/
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
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Received on Fri Mar 24 2006 - 04:02:21 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:16:30 +0000
James Cummings wrote:
> Incidentally. Wouldn't it be more useful if
> http://www.tei-c.org/Drafts/edw84.xml actual showed the *real* content
> models in the 'Content Model' table cell? Currently it does not show
> attributes/attribute classes. Although the attribute classes are
> mentioned in 'Classes' table cell, individually declared attributes do
> not appear and so one must click on the element link (to taq.xq) for
> each and every element one is looking at.
>
With respect, I have to say that "content model" does what it says on
the tin. Attributes are not part of the content model!
Adding a list of individually declared attributes would be feasible,
even easy, but would require hacking the stylesheet that produced edw84
some more....
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Received on Fri Mar 24 2006 - 04:11:33 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 09:44:11 +0000
Lou Burnard wrote:
> James Cummings wrote:
>
>> Incidentally. Wouldn't it be more useful if
>> http://www.tei-c.org/Drafts/edw84.xml actual showed the *real* content
>> models in the 'Content Model' table cell? Currently it does not show
>> attributes/attribute classes. Although the attribute classes are
>> mentioned in 'Classes' table cell, individually declared attributes do
>> not appear and so one must click on the element link (to taq.xq) for
>> each and every element one is looking at.
>>
>
> With respect, I have to say that "content model" does what it says on
> the tin. Attributes are not part of the content model!
Ok, I guess what I meant was that for the current class war it would
be easier if the last column of that table had the 'Declaration' of
the element, which does include attributes.
I.e. When I click on msItemStruct, if gives me Sebastian's XQuery
which spews out the following:
http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/tag.xq?name=msItemStruct
Seeing the declaration cell of that table would be more useful.
But, that said, I'm off to Wakefield/Breton Hall.
-James
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Received on Fri Mar 24 2006 - 04:44:15 EST
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 11:37:48 -0500
msdescription
Overall, this is a module which makes use of the class system fairly well.
1. Content models: We're concerned that many elements' contents are
macro.specialPara; this really isn't necessary in all cases. Why, in
'support' for example do you need: another
msDescription, address, app, caesura, castList, cit, eTree, classSpec,
elementSpec, gap, eg, egXML, rhyme, etc. etc.
There are many elements whose content model contains sets of elements
which might be more usefully expressed as a class:
msIdentifier has a similar content model to altIdentifier. Create new
msIdentifierPart?
Other elements with possibilities for new content model classes:
adminInfo (adminInfoPart)
dimensions (dimensionsPart)
history (historyPart)
msItemStruct (msItemStructPart)
msPart (msPartPart (!) )
physDesc (physDescPart)
supportDesc (supportDescPart)
2. Attributes: Possible new classes.
msContents, msItem, msItemStruct all have @class and @defective
explicit and incipit have @defective
binding and seal have @contemporary
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 16:54:23 -0500
Hello List,
I've been having trouble getting email through to Susan today, so she
hasn't looked at this report... but I wanted to get it in before the
weekend.
Thanks,
Dot
*******
*textcrit*
1. Content models:
perhaps create a new class.
2. Attributes: Only two elements in this module have explicit
attributes, and there is not enough overlap to justify a new class.
3. Class Memberships: no suggestions
4.
This seems very liberal, and the editors might want to consider a more
specific class.
*transcr*
1. Content models: Content models for all transcr elements are by model class.
2. Attributes:
@resp. New class? (handPart)
It is probably not worthwhile to make attribute classes of one, but anyway:
addSpan, damage, delSpan, restore, supplied: @hand
damage, delSpan, fw, restore: @type
damage, supplied: @agent
3. Class membership: Should
is not empty.
--
***************************************
Dot Porter, Program Coordinator
Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities
University of Kentucky
351 William T. Young Library
Lexington, KY 40506
dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549
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Received on Fri Mar 24 2006 - 16:54:27 EST
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 12:30:00 +1200
Morning all!
Linking module
This module seemed pretty well classified already. As far as I can see, applying the procedure which Christian gave, there are no changes required.
I saw a mention in edw87 of the
Analysis
I did find a few things in this module:
// character
element c { att.global.attributes, text } // should include model.gLike?
element c { att.global.attributes, text | model.gLike }
// morpheme
element m
{
att.global.attributes,
attribute baseForm { data.word }?,
( text | model.gLike | model.blockLike | c | model.global )* // = model.mPart
}
// word
element w
{
att.global.attributes,
attribute lemma { data.word }?,
( text | model.gLike | model.blockLike | w | m | c | model.global )* // (model.mPart | w | m)*
}
I suggest defining m's content model as model.mPart, and w's content would then be:
(model.mPart | w | m)*
Finally, the element has attributes @from and @to (data.pointer type) which might be worth grouping into an attribute class. I thought these might be usable by elements in other modules which attach some metadata to a span of text, though I couldn't find any such elements myself.
Hope you all have a good weekend!
Con
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Received on Fri Mar 24 2006 - 19:30:07 EST
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 15:36:58 +1200
While I remember - while I was looking at the linking module I noticed a glitch:
-----Original Message-----
From: tei-council-bounces_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU on behalf of Conal Tuohy
Sent: Sat 25/03/06 11:30
To: TEI Council
Subject: [tei-council] analysis and linking modules
Morning all!
Linking module
This module seemed pretty well classified already. As far as I can see, applying the procedure which Christian gave, there are no changes required.
I saw a mention in edw87 of the
Analysis
I did find a few things in this module:
// character
element c { att.global.attributes, text } // should include model.gLike?
element c { att.global.attributes, text | model.gLike }
// morpheme
element m
{
att.global.attributes,
attribute baseForm { data.word }?,
( text | model.gLike | model.blockLike | c | model.global )* // = model.mPart
}
// word
element w
{
att.global.attributes,
attribute lemma { data.word }?,
( text | model.gLike | model.blockLike | w | m | c | model.global )* // (model.mPart | w | m)*
}
I suggest defining m's content model as model.mPart, and w's content would then be:
(model.mPart | w | m)*
Finally, the element has attributes @from and @to (data.pointer type) which might be worth grouping into an attribute class. I thought these might be usable by elements in other modules which attach some metadata to a span of text, though I couldn't find any such elements myself.
Hope you all have a good weekend!
Con
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Received on Fri Mar 24 2006 - 22:37:08 EST
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 10:13:13 +0000
Conal Tuohy wrote:
>
> http://tei.oucs.ox.ac.uk/Query/tag.xq?name=join has an example which
> mentions the attribute targOrder, but there seemed to be no
> definition of this attribute. I guess the revision of the examples is
> another item on a future agenda :-)
>
The testing process for P5 includes full validation of most examples
(some are deliberately wrong or otherwise weird). so its
just the _prose_ next to it which is wrong.
--
Sebastian Rahtz
*Open Source and Sustainability*
10-12 April 2006, Oxford
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk/events/2006-04-10-12/
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
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Received on Sat Mar 25 2006 - 05:15:35 EST
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2006 09:29:04 +0900
Dear Council members,
Most (All?) of you will have seen my call for posters on TEI-L. If
not, it is also online[1], as well as the preliminary program.
Now, I would like to especially encourage members of the Council, who
will travel to Kyoto anyway, to take this opportunity to present some
of their work. And, BTW, the very proposal for a poster session was
suggested in this forum first. While the overall theme is of course
TEI, the boundaries can be quite fluent and most Humanities Computing
related topic would seem appropriate to me. This would be a great
opportunity to showcase some good work and get people interested.
I imagine that the poster session could be quite crucial in engaging
in a fruitful conversion with members from the audience.
Please write me if you are interested.
All the best,
Christian
[1] http://coe21.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/tei-day/poster-call.html.en
[2] http://coe21.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/tei-day/tei-day2006.html.en
--
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47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Sat Apr 01 2006 - 19:29:05 EST
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 15:31:29 -0400
Susan and I have continued our discussion on the attribute classes in
transcr, specifically looking at the attributes for add, addSpan, del
and delSpan. As they stand, these elements all have slightly different
attributes assigned to them, but the editors may want to consider
adding attributes currently defined for del and delSpan to add and
addSpan and creating new classes.
Is there such thing as a "faulty addition" - an addition that contains
too little or too much text (as a result of eyeskip, for example)? If
so then we may want to define @status on
could be useful on (primary and secondary
additions, for example).
There are still two differences amongst the attributes for these four
elements:
share @place. We really don't think @place makes any sense for .
So, we can consider either new attribute classes for:
(@hand, type, status, with @place separate
on
OR for
(@hand, type, status, with @to separate
on
Or an attribute class with @hand, type, status, and declare @place
separete for the
--
***************************************
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Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities
University of Kentucky
351 William T. Young Library
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dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549
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Received on Thu Apr 06 2006 - 15:31:33 EDT
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:56:08 +0900
Dear Council members,
Some reports from the class assignment have been coming in, but
overall the resonance has been underwhelming. Without your work, we
will not be able to continue with the development work of P5. We need
to get this into shape *before* our meeting here in Japan, which is
only a month or so away. So please look at this and sent us your
comments within the next few days.
We also have a teleconference upcoming on Tue 2006-04-25, that is less
than two weeks from now!
All the best,
Christian
--
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Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Tue Apr 11 2006 - 21:56:43 EDT
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 19:24:56 +0100
I've been trying to collate together the reports received so far, and
thought I should check that I haven't missed any.
In no particular order, I have comments in for the following modules
from the people indicated:
Corpus (James/MattD)
Gaiji/Figures (sebastian/Christian)
Spoken (James)
MsDesc/Transcr (Dot/Susan)
Linking/Analysis (Conall)
Err, that's it. If you've sent something in which has got mislaid,
please protest vehemently. If you haven't, and should have, PLEASE DO SO
NOW!
Meanwhile -- may the easter bunny shower blessings on those named above.
Lou
>Dear Council members,
>
>Some reports from the class assignment have been coming in, but
>overall the resonance has been underwhelming. Without your work, we
>will not be able to continue with the development work of P5. We need
>to get this into shape *before* our meeting here in Japan, which is
>only a month or so away. So please look at this and sent us your
>comments within the next few days.
>
>We also have a teleconference upcoming on Tue 2006-04-25, that is less
>than two weeks from now!
>
>All the best,
>
>Christian
>
>
>
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Received on Sun Apr 16 2006 - 14:25:36 EDT
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 19:41:20 +0100
Lou wrote:
>
> Gaiji/Figures (sebastian/Christian)
and nets, pliz note
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 19:55:34 +0100
True. And while we're at it, let me take this opportunity to apologise
to James, who was responsible (with Dot) for the msDesc report, but
didn't get the credit. Dot and Susan's comments related to the Transcr
module only.
>Lou wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>>Gaiji/Figures (sebastian/Christian)
>>
>>
>
>and nets, pliz note
>
>
>
>
>
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Received on Sun Apr 16 2006 - 14:56:27 EDT
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2006 15:07:03 -0400
Susan and I did Transcr and Textcrit - both in the same email.
On 4/16/06, Lou
> True. And while we're at it, let me take this opportunity to apologise
> to James, who was responsible (with Dot) for the msDesc report, but
> didn't get the credit. Dot and Susan's comments related to the Transcr
> module only.
>
>
>
> Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>
> >Lou wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>Gaiji/Figures (sebastian/Christian)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >and nets, pliz note
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:18:37 +0100
I happened to be looking at at the 'fw' element
http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-fw.html and wondered
whether it should really be considered part of the
model.milestoneLike class (as it currently is), since, allowing content it isn't
really, well, 'milestone-like'. Is it?
Just curious,
-James
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Received on Wed Apr 19 2006 - 11:18:45 EDT
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2006 11:45:19 -0400
Susan and I also noticed this. One could argue that it's
milestone-like in the sense that a running head or catchword can
function as a reference point between sections or pages, but it does
seem odd that fw is the only milestone element that isn't empty.
On the other hand, must all empty element necessarily be milestones?
Dot
On 4/19/06, James Cummings
> I happened to be looking at at the 'fw' element
> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-fw.html and wondered
> whether it should really be considered part of the
> model.milestoneLike class (as it currently is), since, allowing content it isn't
> really, well, 'milestone-like'. Is it?
>
> Just curious,
> -James
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>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:24:27 +0900
James Cummings
writes:
> I happened to be looking at at the 'fw' element
> http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-fw.html and wondered
> whether it should really be considered part of the
> model.milestoneLike class (as it currently is), since, allowing content it isn't
> really, well, 'milestone-like'. Is it?
To me, it certainly is milestone-like and I would like to see it
treated as such. In fact, I used to massage the content model to
allow this before
All the best,
Christian
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:50:55 +0900
Dear Council members,
As you will remember, our next teleconference is scheduled for this
coming Tuesday at 1200 UTC. Please send me any items you would like
to see on the agenda as soon as possible. I plan to send out the
agenda Saturday morning (Japanese time).
ALl the best,
Christian
--
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Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Thu Apr 20 2006 - 02:51:30 EDT
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 14:51:14 +0100
This is a really good question! (posh talk for "beats me guv")
on the one hand,
= it was addded to this class to permit it anywhere
= it may be thought of as an expanded form of
mileStonelike
on the other hand
= a defining (?) feature of milestones is their emptiness
on balance i think i would rather see it in a different class, for things which
act as page decorations. this would not prevent it being a member of the global
inclusion class of course
Porter"
> Susan and I also noticed this. One could argue that it's
> milestone-like in the sense that a running head or catchword can
> function as a reference point between sections or pages, but it does
> seem odd that fw is the only milestone element that isn't empty.
>
> On the other hand, must all empty element necessarily be milestones?
>
> Dot
>
> On 4/19/06, James Cummings
>
> > I happened to be looking at at the 'fw' element
> > http://www.tei-c.org/release/doc/tei-p5-doc/html/ref-fw.html and wondered
> > whether it should really be considered part of the
> > model.milestoneLike class (as it currently is), since, allowing content it
isn't
> > really, well, 'milestone-like'. Is it?
> >
> > Just curious,
> > -James
> > _______________________________________________
> > tei-council mailing list
> > tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
> >
>
>
> --
> ***************************************
> Dot Porter, Program Coordinator
> Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities
> University of Kentucky
> 351 William T. Young Library
> Lexington, KY 40506
>
> dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549
> ***************************************
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>
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Received on Thu Apr 20 2006 - 09:51:25 EDT
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 09:55:35 -0400
> Susan and I also noticed this. One could argue that it's
> milestone-like in the sense that a running head or catchword can
> function as a reference point between sections or pages, but it
> does seem odd that fw is the only milestone element that isn't
> empty.
I think there is an argument for claiming that
milestone, but is not a milestone, because it is not empty. If we buy
this argument, then the question remains whether we want to
a) restrict 'model.milestoneLike' so that it may obtain only things
that are actually milestones,
b) permit things that are like milestones, but aren't empty, in class
'model.milestoneLike' (after all, that's what the "Like" is for
:-), or
c) rename 'model.milestoneLike' to something else
But I don't think this analysis really goes deep enough. Even though
the content of
*is* a reference system the same way a milestone element is.
Milestones definitionally divide a span into smaller pieces. Each
smaller piece has a milestone in front of it (except perhaps the
first such piece) and a milestone after it (except perhaps the last
such piece). This is not necessarily true of formeworkes. Imagine,
e.g., the printed work of an odd typographer who removed the running
heads, etc., from his forme for prime numbered pages.
The things a formeworke held happened to be directly associated with
the milestones of the printed page. But that, it seems to me, is
somewhat due to an accident of printing history, more than an
intrinsic feature of formeworkes. But then again, I don't know a
whole lot about it.
Thus, I'm arguing that
not because it has content, but because it's not a milestone.
On the other hand, putting
element to appear exactly where we want it. I.e., pragmatically
speaking, this is where it belongs.
> milestones?
I think you've asked the question backwards, as the answer to the
question as written is obviously not -- there are many many empty
elements that are not milestones (and are not even milestone-like).
all milestone elements necessarily be empty?" is, IMHO, a really
interesting question. I think the short answer is something like "no,
but it can't contain the same stuff of which the larger span of text
that is being divided into small pieces is made".
E.g., if you are transcribing a long-winded speech by a boring
politician, you might well have milestone elements to indicate the
spots in your transcription where one audio cassette ends and the
next begins. These milestone elements might, in theory, have content
used to describe the cassette tape, e.g.:
But they could not contain content that is transcription of the
politician's speech.
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Received on Thu Apr 20 2006 - 09:55:39 EDT
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 15:45:56 +0100
Syd Bauman wrote:
>>Susan and I also noticed this. One could argue that it's
>
> I think there is an argument for claiming that
> milestone, but is not a milestone, because it is not empty. If we buy
> this argument, then the question remains whether we want to
>
> a) restrict 'model.milestoneLike' so that it may obtain only things
> that are actually milestones,
>
> b) permit things that are like milestones, but aren't empty, in class
> 'model.milestoneLike' (after all, that's what the "Like" is for
> :-), or
>
> c) rename 'model.milestoneLike' to something else
I would argue for a) I think. However, I agree with Christian that almost
anywhere that a milestone can be used
including it in the content model by itself or moving it to another class. But
you are right, the superficial analysis doesn't go deep enough and you go on to
make some good points.
Although forme work is historically milestone-like in its relation to how it
appears on the printed page, it's function is not truly milestone-like in the
same what that milestone/pb/cb/lb are. (forme work should of course allow the
inclusions of milestones, but that does not make it a milestone in itself.)
> Thus, I'm arguing that
> not because it has content, but because it's not a milestone.
Agreed.
> On the other hand, putting
> element to appear exactly where we want it. I.e., pragmatically
> speaking, this is where it belongs.
True. I'm a hypocrite for suggesting that we shouldn't necessarily include it
simply because it is pragmatic (as I've previously suggested grouping things
with no instrinsic semantic connection), but well, it just seemed strange.
> politician, you might well have milestone elements to indicate the
> spots in your transcription where one audio cassette ends and the
> next begins. These milestone elements might, in theory, have content
> used to describe the cassette tape, e.g.:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> But they could not contain content that is transcription of the
> politician's speech.
True. I wouldn't necessarily say that milestones shouldn't contain child
elements, but that these shouldn't be elements of the text, rather metadata
concerning the milestone itself. I believe people have occasionally added child
elements to pb/milestone to record similar information in the past and discussed
it on TEI-L. (However, I can't recall the details at the moment.)
How does one do this kind of tape break at the moment? ID reference back to
-James
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Received on Thu Apr 20 2006 - 10:46:00 EDT
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:52:47 -0400
Hi All,
Here are the details for our conference call next Tuesday, April 25th
at 12:00 UTC.
PIN: 000920#
For conferencing assistance please call 812-855-4848.
John
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Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 11:40:42 -0400
> > a) restrict 'model.milestoneLike' so that it may obtain only things
> > that are actually milestones,
> >
> > b) permit things that are like milestones, but aren't empty, in class
> > 'model.milestoneLike' (after all, that's what the "Like" is for
> > :-), or
> >
> > c) rename 'model.milestoneLike' to something else
>
> I would argue for a) I think.
Yeah, me too. I would go with (a) for 'model.milestoneLike' and
create a new class (which probably goes in the very same places) for
'model.incidental' or 'model.peripheral' or some such.
> back to
Beats me, but that's not a bad idea.
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Received on Thu Apr 20 2006 - 11:40:46 EDT
Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2006 08:39:19 +0900
Syd Bauman
>> > a) restrict 'model.milestoneLike' so that it may obtain only things
>> > that are actually milestones,
>> >
>> > b) permit things that are like milestones, but aren't empty, in class
>> > 'model.milestoneLike' (after all, that's what the "Like" is for
>> > :-), or
>> >
>> > c) rename 'model.milestoneLike' to something else
>>
>> I would argue for a) I think.
>
> Yeah, me too. I would go with (a) for 'model.milestoneLike' and
> create a new class (which probably goes in the very same places) for
>
> 'model.incidental' or 'model.peripheral' or some such.
I agree to the analysis that
I want it to appear at that very same places. Having a new model
class (how about model.fwLike) is fine and allows for further
development.
BTW, the things I have been stuffing into
running heads that were written at the beginning of a scroll,
indicating the title of the text, sometimes also its author and the
number of the scroll. Later, when these texts where printed and bound
in books, these milestones-with-content where retained, but now they
appear frequently in the middle of a page, interrupting the text
flow. And of course you have something similar at the end (although
there is usually only the title). I used to have
because of it belonging to div.bottom, I later rather put
here as well.
best, chw
--
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Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Thu Apr 20 2006 - 19:39:33 EDT
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 09:18:56 +0900
TEI Council Members and Editors:
This is the agenda for the next conference call of the TEI
Council, scheduled to be held Tuesday, April 25th, 2006 at 1200 UTC.
Please read through the following, in advance of the call. Please pay
attention to the open action items, especially with regard to the SO
documents http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2005/001163.html.
Syd Bauman, Alejandro Bia, David Birnbaum, Lou Burnard, James
Cummings, Matthew Driscoll, Dot Porter,Sebastian Rahtz, Laurent
Romary, Susan Schreibman, Conal Tuohy, John Walsh, Christian Wittern,
Matthew Zimmerman
(please alert me if I did forget somebody!)
This is the message from John Walsh, detailing how to get in:
============================================================
Here are the details for our conference call next Tuesday, April 25th
at 12:00 UTC.
PIN: 000920#
For conferencing assistance please call 812-855-4848.
============================================================
1) Review of the minutes and action items (10 min)
Minutes of the last meeting (2006-02-24) are at
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm22.xml?style=printable
To speed up the review of action items, *please report to the
council list* before the call as far as possible!
------------------------------------------------------------
2) Review of WG etc. progress (10 min) :
PB (still waiting for word from Murray McGillivray), documents are
at: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/PB/index.xml?style=printable
PERS Matthew Driscoll, see http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/PERS/
------------------------------------------------------------
3) P5 progress: (20 min)
main topics:
class action,
SO results, see
http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2005/001163.html
4) Other business (5 minutes)
TBA
-----------------------------------------------------
5) Meetings: ( 10 minutes)
TEI Day in Kyoto 2006; Council meeting
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 19:51:54 +0100
Apologies for the short notice, but could we add a brief review of the
document on proposed class changes to the agenda?
I have now uploaded a summary of the comments received from Council
members, which is annotated with my own reactions to them: it is at
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcw07.xml
>TEI Council Members and Editors:
>
>This is the agenda for the next conference call of the TEI
>Council, scheduled to be held Tuesday, April 25th, 2006 at 1200 UTC.
>
>Please read through the following, in advance of the call. Please pay
>attention to the open action items, especially with regard to the SO
>documents http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2005/001163.html.
>
>
>Expected members to participate:
>
>Syd Bauman, Alejandro Bia, David Birnbaum, Lou Burnard, James
>Cummings, Matthew Driscoll, Dot Porter,Sebastian Rahtz, Laurent
>Romary, Susan Schreibman, Conal Tuohy, John Walsh, Christian Wittern,
>Matthew Zimmerman
>
>(please alert me if I did forget somebody!)
>
>This is the message from John Walsh, detailing how to get in:
>============================================================
>
>Here are the details for our conference call next Tuesday, April 25th
>at 12:00 UTC.
>
>
>Phone Number: (812) 856-3600
>PIN: 000920#
>
>For conferencing assistance please call 812-855-4848.
>
>============================================================
>
>
>Agenda:
>
>1) Review of the minutes and action items (10 min)
>
> Minutes of the last meeting (2006-02-24) are at
> http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm22.xml?style=printable
>
> To speed up the review of action items, *please report to the
> council list* before the call as far as possible!
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>2) Review of WG etc. progress (10 min) :
> PB (still waiting for word from Murray McGillivray), documents are
> at: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/PB/index.xml?style=printable
>
> PERS Matthew Driscoll, see http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/PERS/
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>3) P5 progress: (20 min)
> main topics:
> class action,
> SO results, see
> http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2005/001163.html
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------
>
>4) Other business (5 minutes)
>
> TBA
>
>-----------------------------------------------------
>
>5) Meetings: ( 10 minutes)
>
> TEI Day in Kyoto 2006; Council meeting
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Received on Sun Apr 23 2006 - 14:52:22 EDT
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 18:17:05 -0400
> Apologies for the short notice, but could we add a brief review of
> the document on proposed class changes to the agenda?
Seconded.
> members, which is annotated with my own reactions to them: it is at
> http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcw07.xml
Thanks very much to Lou for doing this work and making the summary
available. I have taken the liberty of adding phrase-level markup,
one result being it is much more readable on the web. (Still not
perfect, but ...)
I plan to insert some more of my own comments later tonight and/or
tomorrow morning.
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Received on Sun Apr 23 2006 - 18:17:09 EDT
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:20:30 +0900
Lou
> Apologies for the short notice, but could we add a brief review of the
> document on proposed class changes to the agenda?
Sure. It should be inserted here:
>>3) P5 progress: (20 min)
>> main topics: class action,
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcw07.xml?style=printable
And please have a look at it previous to the call!
Christian
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Sun Apr 23 2006 - 21:21:06 EDT
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 10:14:57 +0900
Council members,
this report came just in:
From: Murray McGillivray
Subject: Re: PB Workgroup progress?
To: Christian Wittern
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 11:55:16 -0600
HI, Christian, hope this is not too late. (I'll also try to get
something along the lines you suggest together for the face-to-face in
May.)
The PB workgroup has been examining two general approaches to
describing the structure (collation, especially) of printed books and
manuscripts, both intended roughly for "sourceDesc" in the TEI header,
the one allowing the recording of various kinds of collation formulae
varying from strict Bowers to Gesamtkatalog der Wiegendrucke, the
other providing for a more explicit encoding of book facts using more
XML-native structures . Likely both will be provided as options for
users since the strengths are quite different and transformation
between them is not elementary. Various test applications to real or
imaginary physical books have been made of both.
More recently, we have been looking at the problem of physical book
hierarchies (gatherings, leaves, pages, pre-folding sheets, etc.) and
how those can interact with existing TEI hierarchies such as of "p"
and "div" elements in the "text" (as opposed to "sourceDesc").The
general solution will likely involve two levels of recording of PB
facts, one where book-structure is the dominant hierarchy within
"text", and one using a kind (_which_ kind a current question) of
stand-off markup to coordinate page-starts (as milestone-like tags,
though they may turn out to have content of their own) and possibly
other events with the more explicit encoding (in "sourceDesc")
mentioned above.
Murray
Christian Wittern wrote:
>Dear Murray,
>
>Spring has come and it is again time for a short brief on the WG process.
>
>The Council will hold another teleconference next week. I would
>appreciate if you could give me a short update on the recent progress
>of the work you made within the PB workgroup, including any problems
>you had or questions you would like to ask the council members.
>
>We will also have a face to face meeting of the Council in Mid-May. I
>wonder if you could give us a bit more substantial information for
>that occasion to consider. I looked at your examples on the website
>and thought some descriptive prose would help understand what you are
>doing.
>
>All the best,
>
>Christian
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 18:03:03 +1200
My apologies for tonight: I am in bed sick with the flu, and won't be up to a meeting.
regards to all
Con
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Received on Tue Apr 25 2006 - 02:03:08 EDT
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 14:01:41 +0200
Dear TEI Council members,
Today I will not be able to attend the conference call, but this is not the
only issue I have to communicate.
Since late 2004 many things changed in my life, most for good: new job, new
born child, and much more... Unfortunately, now I can't find the time to
contribute to volunteer activities like the TEI Council. Many times before
I thought of quitting, and many times I thought I could find the time in a
near future. At this point I must realize I won't. My TEI Council
membership ends this year anyway, but I must admit right now (before
expending 3000 euros of subscribers money on a trip to Kyoto) that I'm not
able to make any useful contribution at present. So, much to my regret, I
have to communicate that I'm leaving the Council.
I want to say that it was a real pleasure to get to meet each of you, and
share experiences here and there. Nice work is being carried out within the
TEI. Keep going!
But don't think I won't keep working with/for the TEI. In fact, one of the
projects I don't want to abandon is multilingual markup (a.k.a.
internationalization). Currently I have a team working on building some web
resources for such purpose. Let's see what comes out of it.
Best regards,
Alex.-
ALEJANDRO BIA
e-mail: abia_at_umh.es
Departamento de Estad?stica, Matem?tica e Inform?tica
Centro de Investigaci?n Operativa
Universidad Miguel Hern?ndez
Edificio Torretamarit
Avenida de la Universidad s/n, E-03202, Elche, ESPA?A
http://www.umh.es/
Tel: +34 966658542
Fax: +34 966658715
Tel?fono m?vil: +34 610806427
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Received on Tue Apr 25 2006 - 08:02:07 EDT
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 13:45:52 +0100
Lou Burnard, OUCS
Sebastian Rahtz, OUCS
James Cummings, OUCS
Elaine Matthews, Classics, Oxford
Charles Crowther, Classics, Oxford
Charlotte Rouech?, Byzantine and Modern Greek, King's
Paul Spence, CCH, King's
John Bradley, CCH, King's
Gabriel Bodard, CCH, King's
Fiona Oliver, Ministry for Culture and Heritage, NZ
Eva Wedervang-Jensen, Arnamagn?an Institute
Matthew Driscoll, Arnamagn?an Institute
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
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Received on Tue Apr 25 2006 - 08:46:05 EDT
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 08:57:01 -0400
2nd try for Lou to include in the report
usan
Subject: [tei-council] transcr and textcrit
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 16:54:23 -0500
From: Dot Porter
To: TEI Council
I've been having trouble getting email through to Susan today, so she
hasn't looked at this report... but I wanted to get it in before the
weekend.
Thanks,
Dot
*******
*textcrit*
1. Content models:
perhaps create a new class.
2. Attributes: Only two elements in this module have explicit
attributes, and there is not enough overlap to justify a new class.
3. Class Memberships: no suggestions
4.
This seems very liberal, and the editors might want to consider a more
specific class.
*transcr*
1. Content models: Content models for all transcr elements are by model class.
2. Attributes:
@resp. New class? (handPart)
It is probably not worthwhile to make attribute classes of one, but anyway:
addSpan, damage, delSpan, restore, supplied: @hand
damage, delSpan, fw, restore: @type
damage, supplied: @agent
3. Class membership: Should
is not empty.
--
***************************************
Dot Porter, Program Coordinator
Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities
University of Kentucky
351 William T. Young Library
Lexington, KY 40506
dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549
***************************************
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--
Susan Schreibman, PhD
Assistant Dean
Head of Digital Collections and Research
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone: 301 314 0358
Fax: 301 314 9408
Email: sschreib_at_umd.edu
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Received on Tue Apr 25 2006 - 08:56:49 EDT
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 12:12:35 -0400
I have finished up a somewhat fast-and-lousy first draft of the notes
from our teleconference earlier today. Because the sound quality
seemed particularly poor at times, I may have missed more than my
usual shoddiness. Thus even if you don't have time to read the whole
thing immediately (and it's not that long), please take a look,
searching for your initials and the string "?...?". Please post any
corrections, omissions, suggestions, etc., either to the list or send
directly to me.
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm23.xml?style=printable
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Received on Tue Apr 25 2006 - 12:12:40 EDT
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:02:10 +0100
Thanks Syd for getting this turned round so fast. Not to be outdone,
I've now updated these minutes a bit from my own notes: as ever, notice
of any important corrections or omissions gratefully received.
L
>I have finished up a somewhat fast-and-lousy first draft of the notes
>from our teleconference earlier today. Because the sound quality
>seemed particularly poor at times, I may have missed more than my
>usual shoddiness. Thus even if you don't have time to read the whole
>thing immediately (and it's not that long), please take a look,
>searching for your initials and the string "?...?". Please post any
>corrections, omissions, suggestions, etc., either to the list or send
>directly to me.
> http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm23.xml?style=printable
>
>_______________________________________________
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>http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
>
>
>
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Received on Tue Apr 25 2006 - 16:02:18 EDT
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2006 21:52:21 +0100
can anyone think how we can put up ideas for http://code.google.com/soc?
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
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Received on Tue Apr 25 2006 - 16:52:25 EDT
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:37:15 +0900
Lou
> Thanks Syd for getting this turned round so fast. Not to be outdone,
> I've now updated these minutes a bit from my own notes: as ever,
> notice of any important corrections or omissions gratefully received.
> Syd Bauman wrote:
>>I have finished up a somewhat fast-and-lousy first draft of the notes
>>from our teleconference earlier today.
Thanks a lot. The notes look fine to me and surely it seems we did
get some work done (and assigned some new). Thanks to everybody for
the active participation (not just in the call,..)
All the best,
Christian
--
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Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Tue Apr 25 2006 - 22:37:50 EDT
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:54:31 +0900
Alejandro Bia
> Since late 2004 many things changed in my life, most for good: new
> job, new born child, and much more... Unfortunately, now I can't find
> the time to contribute to volunteer activities like the TEI
> Council. Many times before I thought of quitting, and many times I
> thought I could find the time in a near future. At this point I must
> realize I won't.
Alejandro,
Live is changing and we have to change as well. The council will not
be the same without you... I would like to thank you for all the
work you have done here and wish you all the best for all your
endeavors.
All the best,
Christian
> (before expending 3000 euros of subscribers
> money on a trip to Kyoto)
fortunately, its not *that* expensive to come here, so if you are in
the area, please give me a call.
chw
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Tue Apr 25 2006 - 22:55:08 EDT
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 08:21:21 -0400
Hi All,
I know the biblStruct/biblItem has been floating around for a while,
and I can't recall the status, but I'd like to suggest this issue as
a useful agenda item for our Kyoto meeting, if we think, based on
prior discussions, we could resolve it in fairly short order.
My position is that biblStruct is adequate for TEI and if folks want
to build fuller bibliographic data sets in XML there are other
standards, e.g., MODS, that are well-suited to that task.
John
--
| John A. Walsh
| Associate Director for Projects and Services, Digital Library Program
| Associate Librarian, University Libraries
| Adjunct Associate Professor, Department of English
| Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405
| Voice:812-855-8758 Fax:812-856-2062
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 11:02:01 -0400
> I know the biblStruct/biblItem has been floating around for a while,
> and I can't recall the status,
Last left, Council had asked me to prepare the bibliography for P5
using
how big a difference it was, which was easier, etc. This project was
assigned to me almost a year ago, but was almost immediately put on a
back burner because Council had other things (SO, classes, etc.) you
wanted me to work on first.
> want to build fuller bibliographic data sets in XML there are other
> standards, e.g., MODS, that are well-suited to that task.
I think I disagree because I think of
bibliographic data set than
that
a) more naturally represents the "wrapping" of one piece of a
reference (e.g., an article) by another (e.g., the journal an
article appears in) than
b) makes data capture and processing of bi biographic information much
easier than
That said, I still think
that the examples the XML-biblio group came up with need work.
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Received on Wed Apr 26 2006 - 11:02:07 EDT
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 10:02:02 +0900
"John A. Walsh"
> Hi All,
>
> I know the biblStruct/biblItem has been floating around for a while,
> and I can't recall the status, but I'd like to suggest this issue as
> a useful agenda item for our Kyoto meeting, if we think, based on
> prior discussions, we could resolve it in fairly short order.
I noted it for an item that tentatively will be on the agenda.
chw
--
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Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Wed Apr 26 2006 - 21:02:36 EDT
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 21:25:45 -0400
Hi Syd,
I take your point about
If I'm understanding MODS correctly, MODS handles this nesting by
having one or more child
content model as the root
attribute with a controlled vocabulary that helps define the relation
("preceding," "succeeding," "original," "host," "constituent,"
"series," "otherVersion," "otherFormat," "isReferencedBy").
I wonder if we could take this approach with
model of
provide an easier transition for the old timers.
John
--
| John A. Walsh
| Associate Director for Projects and Services, Digital Library Program
| Associate Librarian, University Libraries
| Adjunct Associate Professor, Department of English
| Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405
| Voice:812-855-8758 Fax:812-856-2062
Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 14:09:30 -0400
Dear Board,
Here is the agenda for the May 9th Conference call. Please review and:
1. Add any items you'd like
2. Resolve any actions items via email if possible so we don't have
to discuss them on the call.
3. Be prepared to discuss the items assigned to you.
---------------------------
Action items from last conference call:
1. Approval of minutes from last conference call
http://www.tei-c.org/Board/bm15.xml
2. SB: report on meeting with DLF
3. SR, CR, JU: report any development with moving website to virginia
4. DO, MZ: look into donation system.
5. MZ, JF, DP, VL: Discuss the role of Executive Director.
6. MZ, CR: Review secretary language in the Bylaws to ensure that we are
in compliance.
New Business:
1. JV: report on plans for 2006 Members meeting.
2. DO: report on Nominations committee
3. MZ: report on council meeting and TEI day in Japan.
4. Discussion of TEI logo, "P5-ready" logo, and TEI file icon.
5. LB ISO agreement.
6. JF: ALLC internationalziation grant.
7. MZ: Questions about recruiting while in Japan (mainly I would like
the schedule of membership fees for the different DIVs and also the
formula used to decide at what DIV and instituion joins.
-------------------------
Information for connecting to the conference call:
May 9, 2006
9:00 Lethbridge
10:00 Chicago
11:00 New York
16:00 London
17:00 Paris.
Dial numbers to enter conference:
Toll free in USA and Canada: 1.866.698.4855
Outside USA and Canada: +1 212.995.3900
Access # to get into conf.: 29048
_________________
Matthew Zimmerman
Faculty Technology Services, NYU
Tel: 212.998.3038
Fax: 212.995.4120
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Received on Sun May 07 2006 - 14:09:34 EDT
Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 14:10:19 -0400
that was for the Board conference call ;-)
MZ
_________________
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Faculty Technology Services, NYU
Tel: 212.998.3038
Fax: 212.995.4120
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Received on Sun May 07 2006 - 14:10:22 EDT
Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 14:42:27 +0900
Dear Council members,
In preparation for the upcoming meeting, I have set up a page with
information for you. It is at
http://www.kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~wittern/directions.html and is
intended to be printed and taken along. If something is missing,
please tell me, I will update it accordingly. There is also a page for
the TEI day at http://coe21.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/tei-day/tei-day2006.html.en
We have reserved rooms in two hotels, APA and Sun Hotel. Syd,
Sebastian, James, MatthewD and Conal are staying at the APA. You
should have received a coupon that is to be used to settle the bill.
For the others, that is
Dot, Susan, John (5/13- 5/20)
Lou (5/14-5/20)
David (5/16 - 5/20)
MattZ (5/15 - 5-20)
Laurent (5/18)
rooms are reserved in the Sun Hotel with the dates indicated. If
these are not correct, please contact me so that I can change it.
As it happens, we also have a new Council member (MattZ will make this
announcement soon, but now you know anyway...), Amit Kumar, who will
be staying also at the Sun Hotel for the meeting.
If you run into difficulties or forget any of the above, you could
always google for my homepage (be sure to use the one at kyoto-u) and
follow the link labelled "Directions for TEI Council members for the
Kyoto meeting". Alternatively, you could try to call me at (075)
753-6966 (office) or (0774) 63-0843 (home). You should write these
numbers down right away since they are not on the web. And yes, I do
not have a portable phone.
I certainly whish you all a pleasant trip to Kyoto. I will also start
collecting items for the agenda immediately, so if you want something
to be discussed, speak up now!
All the best,
Christian
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Mon May 08 2006 - 01:43:16 EDT
Date: Mon, 08 May 2006 15:15:45 +0900
TEI Council Members and Editors:
This is the draft agenda for the meeting of the
Council in Kyoto May 18 and 19, 2006.
Please send me items you want to have discussed / changed.
Meeting place is Kyoto City International Community House, room 3
10 am to 5 pm.
Expected members to participate:
Syd Bauman, David Birnbaum, Lou Burnard, James Cummings, Matthew
Driscoll, Dot Porter,Sebastian Rahtz, Amit Kumar Laurent Romary, Susan
Schreibman, Conal Tuohy, John Walsh, Christian Wittern, Matthew
Zimmerman
1) Review of the minutes and action items
Minutes of the last meeting (2006-04-25) are at
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm23.xml?style=printable
2) Review of WG etc. progress
PB (still waiting for a document from Murray McGillivray), the WG
website is at: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/PB/index.xml?style=printable
PERS Matthew Driscoll, see http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/PERS/
but also expecting a separate report
------------------------------------------------------------
3) State of P5
Report from the editors
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2005/001163.html
------------------------------------------------------------
cf http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcw07.xml
6) Other proposed changes:
biblItem, cf http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2006/001332.html
note, for example http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0605&L=tei-l&T=0&P=1484
------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder if we at this point could try another attempt at coming up
with a credible work plan towards a stable and trustworthy P5.
------------------------------------------------------------
next call, sometime mid July?
Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 11:15:29 +0100
Christian Wittern wrote:
> It is at
> http://www.kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~wittern/directions.html and is
> intended to be printed and taken along.
This says that a train from airport cost 2980 yen, + cab from station;
whereas the shuttle cab costs 3000 yen. Unless you're a train nut, seems
like no contest. Am I misreading that?
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
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Received on Tue May 09 2006 - 06:15:42 EDT
Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 12:20:44 +0200
Thinking the same way as Sebastian, I tried to book this shuttle yesterday, but
was unable to do so, as the submit button produced no result (I tried 3
different browsers too). Has any one else had this problem?
Matthew
>
>
> Christian Wittern wrote:
> > It is at
> > http://www.kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~wittern/directions.html and is
> > intended to be printed and taken along.
>
> This says that a train from airport cost 2980 yen, + cab from station;
> whereas the shuttle cab costs 3000 yen. Unless you're a train nut, seems
> like no contest. Am I misreading that?
> --
> Sebastian Rahtz
>
> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
>
> OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
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Received on Tue May 09 2006 - 06:20:54 EDT
Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:46:27 -0400
haven't tried yet, but was going to using the logic Sebastian stated.
On May 9, 2006, at 6:20 AM, M. J. Driscoll wrote:
> Thinking the same way as Sebastian, I tried to book this shuttle
> yesterday, but
> was unable to do so, as the submit button produced no result (I
> tried 3
> different browsers too). Has any one else had this problem?
>
> Matthew
>
>>
>>
>> Christian Wittern wrote:
>>> It is at
>>> http://www.kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~wittern/directions.html
>>> and is
>>> intended to be printed and taken along.
>>
>> This says that a train from airport cost 2980 yen, + cab from
>> station;
>> whereas the shuttle cab costs 3000 yen. Unless you're a train nut,
>> seems
>> like no contest. Am I misreading that?
>> --
>> Sebastian Rahtz
>>
>> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
>> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
>>
>> OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
>> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
>> _______________________________________________
>> tei-council mailing list
>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
MZ
_________________
Matthew Zimmerman
Faculty Technology Services, NYU
Tel: 212.998.3038
Fax: 212.995.4120
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Received on Tue May 09 2006 - 09:46:33 EDT
Date: Tue, 09 May 2006 23:01:42 +0100
Last Monday I wrote to announce the existence of a first draft of
outcomes from our meeting in Oxford. Since then, Sebastian, Matthew,
and I have refined the draft a little, ironing out some inconsistencies
and infelicities in the process.
The ODD file is available for download at
http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/PERS/persw06.xml
This can be turned into draft documentation or to generate the
associated schema or dtd, using the Roma application in the usual way.
The documentation needs a lot of work, of course, but is hopefully
enough to make clear what the recommendations from this group actually
are. Matthew will be presenting them to the TEI Council meeting in
Kyoto next week, after which I hope we'll be able to open up discussion
of them more widely.
best wishes
Lou
>>
>
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Received on Tue May 09 2006 - 18:02:09 EDT
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 07:28:33 -0400
The form is designed to send an email upon "submit". When I made the
reservation on FireFox, it pulled up an email in Outlook (which I
don't use). I just copied the information into a new gmail message. I
suppose if you don't have an email program installed on your computer,
the form won't be able to send its message.
To make a reservation without using the form, send a message with the
following information to mkshuttle_at_mk-group.co.jp (replace my values
with your own). Hope this helps.
elect=13
select=May
select=2006
Name=Dorothy Porter
number of passengers=3
address=111 Buckner St. Winchester, KY 40391 USA
phone number=001-859-901-1336
fax number=
email=dporter_at_uky.edu
Airport=KIX
flight number=Northwest 69
time=6:20
time=p.m.
destination in kyoto=Sun Hotel
number of liggage=6
Other information Queries, etc=none
submit=submit
On 5/9/06, M. J. Driscoll
> Thinking the same way as Sebastian, I tried to book this shuttle yesterday, but
> was unable to do so, as the submit button produced no result (I tried 3
> different browsers too). Has any one else had this problem?
>
> Matthew
>
> >
> >
> > Christian Wittern wrote:
> > > It is at
> > > http://www.kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~wittern/directions.html and is
> > > intended to be printed and taken along.
> >
> > This says that a train from airport cost 2980 yen, + cab from station;
> > whereas the shuttle cab costs 3000 yen. Unless you're a train nut, seems
> > like no contest. Am I misreading that?
> > --
> > Sebastian Rahtz
> >
> > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
> > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
> >
> > OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> > http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
> > _______________________________________________
> > tei-council mailing list
> > tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 12:32:38 +0100
Lou confusingly tells me that the train is much more fun anyway, and
quicker...
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
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Received on Wed May 10 2006 - 07:32:50 EDT
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 07:35:56 -0400
but I see you did the form for all three of us -- so this is fine --
thank you for doing it --
usan
> The form is designed to send an email upon "submit". When I made the
> reservation on FireFox, it pulled up an email in Outlook (which I
> don't use). I just copied the information into a new gmail message. I
> suppose if you don't have an email program installed on your computer,
> the form won't be able to send its message.
>
> To make a reservation without using the form, send a message with the
> following information to mkshuttle_at_mk-group.co.jp (replace my values
> with your own). Hope this helps.
>
> select=13
> select=May
> select=2006
> Name=Dorothy Porter
> number of passengers=3
> address=111 Buckner St. Winchester, KY 40391 USA
> phone number=001-859-901-1336
> fax number=
> email=dporter_at_uky.edu
> Airport=KIX
> flight number=Northwest 69
> time=6:20
> time=p.m.
> destination in kyoto=Sun Hotel
> number of liggage=6
> Other information Queries, etc=none
> submit=submit
>
> On 5/9/06, M. J. Driscoll
>> Thinking the same way as Sebastian, I tried to book this shuttle
>> yesterday, but
>> was unable to do so, as the submit button produced no result (I tried 3
>> different browsers too). Has any one else had this problem?
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Christian Wittern wrote:
>> > > It is at
>> > > http://www.kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~wittern/directions.html
>> and is
>> > > intended to be printed and taken along.
>> >
>> > This says that a train from airport cost 2980 yen, + cab from station;
>> > whereas the shuttle cab costs 3000 yen. Unless you're a train nut,
>> seems
>> > like no contest. Am I misreading that?
>> > --
>> > Sebastian Rahtz
>> >
>> > Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
>> > 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
>> >
>> > OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
>> > http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > tei-council mailing list
>> > tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>> > http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> tei-council mailing list
>> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
>> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>>
>
>
> --
> ***************************************
> Dot Porter, Program Coordinator
> Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities
> University of Kentucky
> 351 William T. Young Library
> Lexington, KY 40506
>
> dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549
> ***************************************
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
--
Susan Schreibman, PhD
Assistant Dean
Head of Digital Collections and Research
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone: 301 314 0358
Fax: 301 314 9408
Email: sschreib_at_umd.edu
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Received on Wed May 10 2006 - 07:35:53 EDT
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 07:40:42 -0400
Christian -- how long does the shuttle take vs the train?
usan
> Lou confusingly tells me that the train is much more fun anyway, and
> quicker...
>
>
--
Susan Schreibman, PhD
Assistant Dean
Head of Digital Collections and Research
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone: 301 314 0358
Fax: 301 314 9408
Email: sschreib_at_umd.edu
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Received on Wed May 10 2006 - 07:40:40 EDT
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:44:35 +0900
Susan Schreibman
> Christian -- how long does the shuttle take vs the train?
>
It lies in the nature of things that while the train is running on a
fixed schedule and duration (75 minutes in this case), the time for
the shuttle is indeterminate. They are competing on the price, as
Sebastian noted, but not on the time it takes, which they do not
announce. Usually, they collect a few people with the same
destination for the shuttle, and deliver them one after the other, so
if you are unlucky, you might be the last and get an extra sightseeing
look through Kyoto for free.
I personally do not live in the City proper, so I have not used this
specific shuttle service, but I have arranged it for people at various
occasions and it is also popular with those of my colleagues who use
it. As always, your mileage may vary.
Christian
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 07:47:29 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz
> Christian Wittern wrote:
>> It is at
>> http://www.kanji.zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~wittern/directions.html and is
>> intended to be printed and taken along.
>
> This says that a train from airport cost 2980 yen, + cab from station;
> whereas the shuttle cab costs 3000 yen. Unless you're a train nut, seems
> like no contest. Am I misreading that?
BTW, I think the cab will set you back about 1000 ~ 1200 Yen, on rainy
days.
Christian
Date: Wed, 10 May 2006 21:44:15 -0400
Hi C -- sorry to harp on, but if the shuttle goes straight from the
airport to the hotel, does it take the same amount of travel time, 1
and 1/2 hours, or is it a significantly longer car journey than train
journey.
thanks
usan
Christian Wittern wrote:
> Susan Schreibman
>
>
>> Christian -- how long does the shuttle take vs the train?
>>
>>
>
> It lies in the nature of things that while the train is running on a
> fixed schedule and duration (75 minutes in this case), the time for
> the shuttle is indeterminate. They are competing on the price, as
> Sebastian noted, but not on the time it takes, which they do not
> announce. Usually, they collect a few people with the same
> destination for the shuttle, and deliver them one after the other, so
> if you are unlucky, you might be the last and get an extra sightseeing
> look through Kyoto for free.
>
> I personally do not live in the City proper, so I have not used this
> specific shuttle service, but I have arranged it for people at various
> occasions and it is also popular with those of my colleagues who use
> it. As always, your mileage may vary.
>
> Christian
>
>
>
--
Susan Schreibman, PhD
Assistant Dean
Head of Digital Collections and Research
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone: 301 314 0358
Fax: 301 314 9408
Email: sschreib_at_umd.edu
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Received on Wed May 10 2006 - 21:44:24 EDT
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 12:10:04 +0900
Susan Schreibman
> Hi C -- sorry to harp on, but if the shuttle goes straight from the
> airport to the hotel, does it take the same amount of travel time, 1
> and 1/2 hours, or is it a significantly longer car journey than train
> journey.
To leave the realm of speculation, I just confirmed with them. The
trip by car is expected to take between 2:15 hours and 2:40 hours.
All the best,
Christian
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Wed May 10 2006 - 23:10:39 EDT
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 13:17:19 +0900
Dear colleagues,
Following the bus vs train exchange, I added the following to the
section about getting to the meeting place for Wednesday:
possibility to use a train on the Keihan Line. From the SunHotel, you
have to cross the river to get to the Shijo station, from the APA
Hotel, you walk towards the river to that same station. It will be
three stops on the trains running north towards Demachiyanagi. This is
also where you will get off. You will then leave the station and walk
on Imadegawa towards Kyoto University, that is Hyakumanben, this is
what you will see on the map above in the upper left corner.
Also note that I am notorious for mixing up left and right; be
prepared to try the opposite as well. Where I talk about the bus
stop, I said "right" hand of the map, but meant left, corrected now.
Sorry for the added confusion.
All the best,
Christian
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Thu May 11 2006 - 00:17:57 EDT
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 11:33:51 -0400 (EDT)
Christian --
I am submitting two thoughts for potential inclusion as items on our
agenda.
-- -------------- -- -----
I think that perhaps addressing the issue of regularization of names
should be added to the agenda. Ideally Council members should review
what's been suggested so far. This includes (but is not limited to)
the work that Julia & Perry did last year, and the conversation it
kicked off. (First post on the thread is at
http://lists.village.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2005/000600.html)
There are several other solutions that should be considered that,
IIRC, were not mentioned in this thread. Most were discussed prior to
it, I'm not sure when/where for some. Things like
a)
b)
where ZZZ could be "literal", "asIs", "diplomatic", "transcribed"
or some such -- if it is "orig", then this is same as (e)
c) names *in*
d)
e) name *is*
f) Sorry, no gaiji and no other languages in your
regularizations:
Ideally, we would leave Kyoto with an answer as to how the Guidelines
should recommend the encoding of the regularization of nameLike
things.
-- ----------
My recollection (which may be flawed) is that Council has never fully
addressed the question of including Schematron constraints in P5.
Sebastian and his META group have both created the capability to do
so, and proven that it can be done. (Command-line roma will extract
Schematron rules from the ODD files of Guidelines either on a routine
build of P5 or on customization.) I have made numerous suggestions of
places where Schematron rules would be (IMO) beneficial. (Most of
these were during last summer's attribute update effort.)
Personally, I would like Council to say "yes, Schematron rules will be
incorporated into the Guidelines", and then something like "New
subcommittee X should go off and scour the entire Guidelines and
ascertain all the places where such rules are a good idea", or "Syd
should go off and develop a set of proposed Schematron rules and
present them to Council by [date]" or whatever.
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Received on Thu May 11 2006 - 11:33:55 EDT
Date: Thu, 11 May 2006 16:41:43 +0100
Syd's topics are both very interesting. However, I think we should
take a meta step first of making a catalogue of all the known issues
between "now" and "P5 being declared fully usable if not finished";
as I think is implied by an agenda item CW put in. And then rank those,
resource them, and work through them. Kind of like er um project
planning.....
I would not like us to suddenly dive into the interesting topic
of
it is in the roadmap.
I am preparing a short paper listing some work I believe would
be candidates for funding, which will be part of my contribution
to the roadmap.
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
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Received on Thu May 11 2006 - 11:41:47 EDT
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:03:01 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz
> Syd's topics are both very interesting. However, I think we should
> take a meta step first of making a catalogue of all the known issues
> between "now" and "P5 being declared fully usable if not finished";
> as I think is implied by an agenda item CW put in. And then rank those,
> resource them, and work through them. Kind of like er um project
> planning.....
Thanks for supporting me on this. Project planning seems to be a red
herring in some quarters and I clearly see and feel its limitations,
nevertheless... We need to deliver and we need to know where we are
lacking now.
> I would not like us to suddenly dive into the interesting topic
> of
> it is in the roadmap.
>
> I am preparing a short paper listing some work I believe would
> be candidates for funding, which will be part of my contribution
> to the roadmap.
Thanks for this, I am looking forward to it. I would also appreciate
an update or maybe at a comment on how
http://www.tei-c.org/Drafts/edw81.xml?style=printable compares to the
current state. (It looks like it has last been updated on 2005-03-29).
All the best,
Christian
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Thu May 11 2006 - 21:03:37 EDT
Date: Fri, 12 May 2006 10:09:46 +0900
Syd Bauman
> Christian --
>
> I am submitting two thoughts for potential inclusion as items on our
> agenda.
Thanks, but see also SRs comment. I hope that after we have hammered
out the big issues we do have some time left to pay attention to this.
best, chw
>
>
> 1. Regularization of Names
> -- -------------- -- -----
[...]
>
> Ideally, we would leave Kyoto with an answer as to how the Guidelines
> should recommend the encoding of the regularization of nameLike
> things.
In my book that falls also (at least partly) within the topic of
personography.
> 2. Schematron
> -- ----------
> My recollection (which may be flawed) is that Council has never fully
> addressed the question of including Schematron constraints in P5.
> Sebastian and his META group have both created the capability to do
> so, and proven that it can be done. (Command-line roma will extract
> Schematron rules from the ODD files of Guidelines either on a routine
> build of P5 or on customization.) I have made numerous suggestions of
> places where Schematron rules would be (IMO) beneficial. (Most of
> these were during last summer's attribute update effort.)
Could you point us to where we can find this list.
>
> Personally, I would like Council to say "yes, Schematron rules will be
> incorporated into the Guidelines", and then something like "New
> subcommittee X should go off and scour the entire Guidelines and
> ascertain all the places where such rules are a good idea", or "Syd
> should go off and develop a set of proposed Schematron rules and
> present them to Council by [date]" or whatever.
I will add this to the agenda. Thanks for bringing it up.
All the best,
Christian
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Thu May 11 2006 - 21:10:20 EDT
Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 14:49:34 +0100
Tempting tho it is, I am going to ignore this opportunity to get the
dehumidifier community plugged into using TEI...
Lou
From: "Chris"
To: tei-c.org
Subject: tei-c.org, I have a proposal, by which both will be get more traffic
Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 16:43:19 +0530
I recently find your site http://www.tei-c.org by searching Google for
"Dehumidifier" . I think our websites have a similar theme, so I am interested
in exchanging links. I was wondering if you would like to trade links with my PR
2 Dehumidifier Website.
If interested please send me the Title, URL and Description of your website or
the HTML code, so that I can put them on my website of same category and in
return you will provide a link from http://www.tei-c.org website.
Below given are the sites you have to link:
=======================================================
Site Title: Home Dehumidifier
URL: http://www.dehumidifiersx.com/
Desc: Discount home dehumidifiers!
========================================================
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Received on Mon May 15 2006 - 09:49:46 EDT
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 17:37:17 +0900
Dear council members,
I trust that you have all arrived safely and are enjoying your stay so
far. I have been busy all day, but I think everything is now ready for
tomorrow, so now I am looking forward to a great day tomorrow.
I have reserved a room for dinner at a little place close to the
University, and I hope you will be able to join us there.
All the best,
Christian
--
Christian Wittern
Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
47 Higashiogura-cho, Kitashirakawa, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8265, JAPAN
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Received on Tue May 16 2006 - 04:38:12 EDT
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 23:48:47 +1200
Greetings everyone!
I have arrived at the APA Gion hotel this evening. I would like to catch up with the other council members staying at the hotel. I imagine we will meet up at breakfast in the Shiki restaurant? Seems like an idea to catch a cab since there I think 5 of us here?
Also, would any kind soul be able to lend me a laptop power cable to charge my laptop? I stupidly forgot to bring an adaptor, and my plug doesn't fit in the wall sockets!
I'm in room 714 - I believe you can just dial the room number. If it would be possible this evening I'd appreciate a call.
Otherwise, see you tomorrow!
Con
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Received on Tue May 16 2006 - 07:48:52 EDT
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:23:13 +0100
Some of had planned to meet at the subway. HOWEVER reading
notes again I see it is a bus do tomorrow. It may therefore
be easier for all 5 Apa Gion folks to catch a taxi.
anyway, Lou, scrub plan to meet you at 9.15, we'll meet you
at the venue.
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
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Received on Tue May 16 2006 - 08:23:22 EDT
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:25:21 +0100
anyone seen Syd?
--
Sebastian Rahtz
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13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
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Received on Tue May 16 2006 - 08:25:37 EDT
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 13:32:51 +0100
Conal, yes, see you at breakfast 8am in Gion? Is Syd here?
Lou/James/Matthew - scrub the subway plan. see Christian's notes, it's a
bus tomorrow, subway other days. lets just meet at venue.
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
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Received on Tue May 16 2006 - 08:32:58 EDT
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:43:31 -0400
> Conal, yes, see you at breakfast 8am in Gion? Is Syd here?
Just got in a few minutes ago. Shuttle delivered me to the wrong
hotel. Thanks for bailing me out, Christian!
I'll plan to see the other 4 Gionners at breakfast, although I may
not make it there by 08:00 :-|
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Received on Tue May 16 2006 - 08:43:34 EDT
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 00:57:32 +1200
Just got a call from Syd - he got in just now, after being delivered to the wrong hotel. Sounded like he needed rest (25-hour journey) and he said he probably wouldn't be @ breakfast by 8.
From: Sebastian Rahtz [mailto:Sebastian.Rahtz_at_oucs.ox.ac.uk]
Sent: Wed 17/05/06 0:32
To: Conal Tuohy
Cc: TEI Council
Subject: Re: [tei-council] Catching up at the APA Gion hotel, cable
Conal, yes, see you at breakfast 8am in Gion? Is Syd here?
Lou/James/Matthew - scrub the subway plan. see Christian's notes, it's a
bus tomorrow, subway other days. lets just meet at venue.
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
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Received on Tue May 16 2006 - 08:58:53 EDT
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 13:33:48 +0100
I've put up a strawman document at http://www.tei-c.org/Council/roadmap.xml
with some ideas on milestones. It isn't
complete yet, but I wanted to get
reaction on whether such a thing
is plausible.
My aim being to knock on the head
the philosophy that "P5 is ready when
its ready"......
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 07:57:00 +0900
Agenda for the meeting of the Council in Kyoto May 18 and 19, 2006.
Meeting place is Kyoto City International Community House, room 3
10 am to 5 pm.
Expected members to participate:
Syd Bauman, David Birnbaum, Lou Burnard, James Cummings, Matthew
Driscoll, Dot Porter,Sebastian Rahtz, Amit Kumar Laurent Romary, Susan
Schreibman, Conal Tuohy, John Walsh, Christian Wittern, Matthew
Zimmerman
Agenda:
0) Review and adaption of agenda
1) Review of the minutes and action items
Minutes of the last meeting (2006-04-25) are at
http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcm23.xml?style=printable
PB (still waiting for a document from Murray McGillivray), the WG
website is at: http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/PB/index.xml?style=printable
PERS Matthew Driscoll, see http://www.tei-c.org/Activities/PERS/
but also expecting a separate report
3) State of P5
Report from the editors
4) Standoff Markup review, cf
http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2005/001163.html
cf http://www.tei-c.org/Council/tcw07.xml
biblItem, cf http://www3.iath.virginia.edu/pipermail/tei-council/2006/001332.html
note, for example http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0605&L=tei-l&T=0&P=1484
review of name regularization (cf. Syds note to the council list)
schematron rules in P5 (how to proceed)
Durand conundrum (what to do with content models rng or odd)
I wonder if we at this point could try another attempt at coming up
with a credible work plan towards a stable and trustworthy P5.
cf. Sebastians plan: http://www.tei-c.org/Council/roadmap.xml?style=printable
next call, sometime mid July?
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 03:16:38 -0400
Susan Schreibman wrote:
> 2nd try for Lou to include in the report
>
> susan
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [tei-council] transcr and textcrit
> Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 16:54:23 -0500
> From: Dot Porter
> To: TEI Council
>
>
>
> Hello List,
>
> I've been having trouble getting email through to Susan today, so she
> hasn't looked at this report... but I wanted to get it in before the
> weekend.
>
> Thanks,
> Dot
> *******
> *textcrit*
>
> 1. Content models:
> perhaps create a new class.
> 2. Attributes: Only two elements in this module have explicit
> attributes, and there is not enough overlap to justify a new class.
> 3. Class Memberships: no suggestions
> 4.
> This seems very liberal, and the editors might want to consider a more
> specific class.
>
> *transcr*
>
> 1. Content models: Content models for all transcr elements are by
> model class.
>
> 2. Attributes:
> @resp. New class? (handPart)
>
> It is probably not worthwhile to make attribute classes of one, but
> anyway:
>
> addSpan, damage, delSpan, restore, supplied: @hand
> damage, delSpan, fw, restore: @type
> damage, supplied: @agent
>
> 3. Class membership: Should
> is not empty.
>
> --
> ***************************************
> Dot Porter, Program Coordinator
> Collaboratory for Research in Computing for Humanities
> University of Kentucky
> 351 William T. Young Library
> Lexington, KY 40506
>
> dporter_at_uky.edu 859-257-9549
> ***************************************
> _______________________________________________
> tei-council mailing list
> tei-council_at_lists.village.Virginia.EDU
> http://lists.village.Virginia.EDU/mailman/listinfo/tei-council
>
>
--
Susan Schreibman, PhD
Assistant Dean
Head of Digital Collections and Research
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone: 301 314 0358
Fax: 301 314 9408
Email: sschreib_at_umd.edu
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Received on Thu May 18 2006 - 03:16:48 EDT
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 07:43:17 +0900
Council members,
this came in from Murray last night:
============================================================
From: Murray McGillivray
Subject: Re: PB Workgroup
To: Christian Wittern
Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 20:58:37 -0600
Hi, Christian. I hope I've understood what Council wanted, but I'm
afraid I haven't had much time or energy to perfect it since hearing
of the request--end of term and a massive committee responsibility
here.
Anyway, enough whining. I've mounted something that I hope will be
useful at
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~mmcgilli/PB/PBdraft.htm
for people to have a look at. Most of it needs more (and better)
explanation, but as I say, the rough shape is a function of my general
level of stress this month. (And I've made no attempt whatsoever to
approximate Guidelines style.)
The examples are from materials already circulated to the workgroup
and brought to the attention of Council with only minor adjustments
since. So only the explanatory prose is new.
Murray
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 20:59:55 -0400
Hi All,
Here are our notes for Dictionary and Drama modules.
John & Matt
Class Struggle: Dictionaries and Drama
+++Dictionary Module+++
Element content models with possible class issues:
"q | quote | cit" should be replaced by model.qLike
"hom | sense" are referenced directly in the content model. Are they
likely to be extended with similarly behaving elements? If so, then
they may be candidates for a class.
Lots of individual elements in content model: "usg | lbl | def |
trans | tr | dicteg | xr". These are a subset of model.entryParts.
Are they likely to be extended with similarly behaving elements? If
so, then they may be candidates for a class.
"sense" is referenced directly in the content model. It is also
referenced in
extensions, perhaps it should be in a class of one.
"sense" is referenced directly in the content model. It is also
referenced in
extensions, perhaps it should be in a class of one.
they likely to be extended with similarly behaving elements? If so,
then they may be candidates for a class.
Element content models with possible class issues:
References ( castItem | castGroup ), which are also reference in
"role | roleDesc | actor" are part of the content model. They should
be grouped together as a class for easy extension and addition of
simiilarly behaved elements.
References ( castItem | castGroup ). See
--
| John A. Walsh
| Associate Director for Projects and Services, Digital Library Program
| Associate Librarian, University Libraries
| Adjunct Associate Professor, Department of English
| Indiana University, 1320 East Tenth Street, Bloomington, IN 47405
| Voice:812-855-8758 Fax:812-856-2062
Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 06:06:25 +0200
Selon "John A. Walsh"
> +++Dictionary Module+++
>
> Element content models with possible class issues:
>
>
> "q | quote | cit" should be replaced by model.qLike
agree
>
>
> "hom | sense" are referenced directly in the content model. Are they
> likely to be extended with similarly behaving elements? If so, then
> they may be candidates for a class.
No. They have to be explicitly stated as part of
>
>
> Lots of individual elements in content model: "usg | lbl | def |
> trans | tr | dicteg | xr". These are a subset of model.entryParts.
> Are they likely to be extended with similarly behaving elements? If
> so, then they may be candidates for a class.
Yes. Make a class out of those elements.
>
>
> "sense" is referenced directly in the content model. It is also
> referenced in
> extensions, perhaps it should be in a class of one.
cf. above. Leave as-is.
>
>
> "sense" is referenced directly in the content model. It is also
> referenced in
> extensions, perhaps it should be in a class of one.
idem.
>
>
>
> they likely to be extended with similarly behaving elements? If so,
> then they may be candidates for a class.
>
Yes.
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Received on Fri May 19 2006 - 00:06:42 EDT
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 03:22:21 +0100
You will recall that yesterday we debated how to resolve the fact that
David and Matthew wanted a specific set of elements to be allowed
in
what they got if the elements were simply put into a model class.
I propose that the idea of a model class be extended to allow
an extra piece of information which says how it is to be implemented.
Currently, if a class foo has members a, b and c, it is instantiated
as:
model.foo = a | b | c
and it is always used as:
(model.foo)*
or
(model.foo)+
I propose an attribute on
will allow it to be additionally instantiated as either
model.foo = a, b, c
or
model.foo = a?, b?, c?
and then in real content models we could opt NOT to
have the surrounding (...)*.
I have implemented and tested this, using
and
refute the Cummings Claim (that msdescription
depends on namesdates) by making a new (ordered) class
containing settlement, region, and country.
If anyone sees a flaw in my thinking, or thinks this is a
bad idea, please speak up.
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
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Received on Fri May 19 2006 - 22:22:30 EDT
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 03:48:59 +0100
I would like to go on record as saying that I regard this development
(the Kyoto Konstruct?) as not just a good idea but a major step forward.
The problem it solves is not just a quirk of physDesc, but one that
pervades the Guidelines. The proposal builds on and extends the work we
have done so far in applying classes throughout the content models, by
providing a much needed solution to oft-repeated concerns about the
over-generality of content models based on them.
The only fly I see in the ointment is that it would appear to preclude
my using a particular class in different ways. In other words, I might
have one element in which I want members of a class to be allowed in an
alternation, and another in which I want them in a sequence. That cannot
be done in the present implementation, if I understand krekly, without
redefining the class.
L
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>You will recall that yesterday we debated how to resolve the fact that
>David and Matthew wanted a specific set of elements to be allowed
>in
>what they got if the elements were simply put into a model class.
>
>I propose that the idea of a model class be extended to allow
>an extra piece of information which says how it is to be implemented.
>Currently, if a class foo has members a, b and c, it is instantiated
>as:
>
> model.foo = a | b | c
>
>and it is always used as:
>
> (model.foo)*
>
>or
>
> (model.foo)+
>
>I propose an attribute on
>will allow it to be additionally instantiated as either
>
> model.foo = a, b, c
>
>or
>
> model.foo = a?, b?, c?
>
>and then in real content models we could opt NOT to
>have the surrounding (...)*.
>
>I have implemented and tested this, using
>and
>refute the Cummings Claim (that msdescription
>depends on namesdates) by making a new (ordered) class
>containing settlement, region, and country.
>
>If anyone sees a flaw in my thinking, or thinks this is a
>bad idea, please speak up.
>
>
>
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Received on Fri May 19 2006 - 22:49:56 EDT
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 14:26:09 +0100
Lou's Laptop wrote:
>
> The only fly I see in the ointment is that it would appear to preclude
> my using a particular class in different ways. In other words, I might
> have one element in which I want members of a class to be allowed in
> an alternation, and another in which I want them in a sequence. That
> cannot be done in the present implementation, if I understand krekly,
> without redefining the class.
>
I now propose an amendment to my scheme, to answer this. Viz, you will
able to ask
for _multiple_ patterns/entities to be generated. So potentially a
content model could refer to:
model.foo (a|b|c, alternated, as now)
model.foo.sequence (a,b,c)
model.foo.optsequence (a?,b?,c?)
Does that answer the objections OK?
--
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Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
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Received on Sat May 20 2006 - 09:26:21 EDT
Date: Sat, 20 May 2006 14:42:49 +0100
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>
> model.foo (a|b|c, alternated, as now)
> model.foo.sequence (a,b,c)
> model.foo.optsequence (a?,b?,c?)
>
Syd implicitedly noted to me that we can also support
a+,b+,c+
and
a*,b*,c*
with no further ado, and I think he is right.
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
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Received on Sat May 20 2006 - 09:42:55 EDT
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 09:59:44 +0100
Two issues have been raised in regard to this, and we need to take
a strategic decision.
*Firstly*, do we want to change the basic idea of what a model class is,
to allow
for the notion that it may encompass such things as a,b,c or a?,b?,c?
or a*,b*,c*
or a+,b+,c+ as well as the current a|b|c? If we accept the idea, it
allows us
to deal with the requests of msdescription using the class system. If we
do not
allow it, we must find another way.
So if we accept that msdesc is currently broke, we have a choice:
1) uses classes, and introduce very relaxed content models which permit
elements to repeat in unwanted ways
2) use classes, with the proposed new meaning of what a "class" is
3) introduce and implement module dependencies, and accept that
it will be harder to guarantee schemas which don't have dangling links
Each of these routes is possible. The simplest is 1), which requires no
new work. I have implemented 2), but only partly (see below). For 3),
no work has been done, but it is not that hard to make Roma follow
"suggests"
links and tick an extra box by default. However, it will require serious
work to look at guarenteed removal of dangling links.
Personally, I think that route 2) is most in line with where the TEI
ODD system has been going. But YMMV.
*Secondly*, if we do take route 2), it has serious implications
for the non-ODD extension mechanism, ie using schema/dtd
module fragments and combining them in a DTD subset or
hand-written RelaxNG schema. Lou and I had a long (and probably
incoherent) discussion about this at Kansai airport and I think
we came up with solutions. But it raised the question as to
whether we definely want to carry on with this whole
method of working.
Anyone got thoughts in this?
--
Sebastian Rahtz
Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 04:59:59 EDT
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 12:07:49 +0200
For what it's worth, I was and am persuaded by the arguments in favour of
implementing choice 2 below. Unfortunately I lack the technical knowledge
necessary to understand how serious the "serious implications" Sebastian
mentions are, but if solutions can be found in the course of a (possibly
incoherent) discussion at an airport I'd be tempted to say, let's go for it.
MJD (suffering serious symptoms of sushi withdrawal)
> a strategic decision.
>
> *Firstly*, do we want to change the basic idea of what a model class is,
> to allow
> for the notion that it may encompass such things as a,b,c or a?,b?,c?
> or a*,b*,c*
> or a+,b+,c+ as well as the current a|b|c? If we accept the idea, it
> allows us
> to deal with the requests of msdescription using the class system. If we
> do not
> allow it, we must find another way.
>
> So if we accept that msdesc is currently broke, we have a choice:
>
> 1) uses classes, and introduce very relaxed content models which permit
> elements to repeat in unwanted ways
> 2) use classes, with the proposed new meaning of what a "class" is
> 3) introduce and implement module dependencies, and accept that
> it will be harder to guarantee schemas which don't have dangling links
>
> Each of these routes is possible. The simplest is 1), which requires no
> new work. I have implemented 2), but only partly (see below). For 3),
> no work has been done, but it is not that hard to make Roma follow
> "suggests"
> links and tick an extra box by default. However, it will require serious
> work to look at guarenteed removal of dangling links.
>
> Personally, I think that route 2) is most in line with where the TEI
> ODD system has been going. But YMMV.
>
> *Secondly*, if we do take route 2), it has serious implications
> for the non-ODD extension mechanism, ie using schema/dtd
> module fragments and combining them in a DTD subset or
> hand-written RelaxNG schema. Lou and I had a long (and probably
> incoherent) discussion about this at Kansai airport and I think
> we came up with solutions. But it raised the question as to
> whether we definely want to carry on with this whole
> method of working.
>
> Anyone got thoughts in this?
>
> --
> Sebastian Rahtz
>
> Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
> 13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
>
> OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
> http://www.oss-watch.ac.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 06:07:58 EDT
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 11:39:48 +0100
M. J. Driscoll wrote:
> For what it's worth, I was and am persuaded by the arguments in favour of
> implementing choice 2 below. Unfortunately I lack the technical knowledge
> necessary to understand how serious the "serious implications" Sebastian
> mentions are, but if solutions can be found in the course of a (possibly
> incoherent) discussion at an airport I'd be tempted to say, let's go for it.
>
Currently, we map classes onto RELAXNG patterns directly.
And RELAXNG patterns are simply alternates (or interleaves).
So to support the a?,b?,c? notion in the RELAXNG modules,
I have to rewrite a fair amount of odd -> relax. But thats
my problem.
The real question is whether you also want to do the work
to make sure we can continue support the extensibility
system whereby all model classes have an "x.model.foo"
pattern which can be filled in.
--
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Information Manager, Oxford University Computing Services
13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
OSS Watch: JISC Open Source Advisory Service
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 06:39:53 EDT
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 21:29:25 +0900
Sebastian Rahtz
> Two issues have been raised in regard to this, and we need to take
> a strategic decision.
>
> *Firstly*, do we want to change the basic idea of what a model class is,
> to allow
..
> 1) uses classes, and introduce very relaxed content models which permit
> elements to repeat in unwanted ways
> 2) use classes, with the proposed new meaning of what a "class" is
> 3) introduce and implement module dependencies, and accept that
> it will be harder to guarantee schemas which don't have dangling links
>
(2) and (3) do not seem to be mutually exclusive. For the moment, we
have to consider that this will throw out a significant part of the
work we have done in the class struggle, which we will have to redo
then, by revisiting the reports and tcw07. Please see my other
message on this issue as well.
> ODD system has been going. But YMMV.
>
> *Secondly*, if we do take route 2), it has serious implications
> for the non-ODD extension mechanism, ie using schema/dtd
> module fragments and combining them in a DTD subset or
> hand-written RelaxNG schema. Lou and I had a long (and probably
> incoherent) discussion about this at Kansai airport and I think
> we came up with solutions. But it raised the question as to
> whether we definely want to carry on with this whole
> method of working.
If it buys us a more convincing class system, I think I am willing to
drop the other mechanisms. However, this is not purely a technically
issue, so in due time we should present this issue to the board me
thinks.
All the best,
Christian
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 21:43:30 +0900
Dear council members,
I trust that most of you have by now safely returned home and are now
slowly recovering from whatever pain this trip has induced on you.
While we did not get through with everything, I think we did a
reasonably well job at advancing towards a release of P5 1.0 and hope
that you also enjoyed other aspects of this trip.
Back to business. While we are waiting for the minutes to appear,
some thoughts on the open ends, as I see them.
I was hoping (and still am, in fact) that we can finish the class work
very soon now. As far as I can see, only the names-dates report is
still missing, but that will hopefully come in soon (MatthewD,
Laurent -- when do you think this will be ready?) I would like to ask
the editors to work the remaining comments into the paper and present
it to us, if possible within the next month.
Once we have that done, we might be ready to announce another
prerelease (0.5?)
I would also like to ask the editors to update the document edw81.xml
to reflect our discussions. I think it would be good, if we could use
this document to track the status of each chapter, so that we can
always easily find out where it is. For that purpose, I suggest that
for every individual task (e.g. "check class structure", "check
examples", "revise prose" and whatever), an additional column be added
and an indicator be inserted once the task has been completed. This
document could then even be made visible to those who want to track
the status of our development, for example translators.
Another thought that came me on my (admittedly short) trip home.
Wouldnt it be nice if TEI customizations could by itself be a module?
That would allow immediate inclusion of other things (for example the
new PERS stuff, but also EpiDoc for the sake of an example) into
existing customizations. This would of course require to allow module
dependencies, but I tend to the view that in the long run we will be
forced to consider them anyway.
All the best,
Christian
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 14:24:52 +0100
Christian Wittern wrote:
> I trust that most of you have by now safely returned home and are now
> slowly recovering from whatever pain this trip has induced on you.
>
little pain, unless you count sleep deprivation; but lots
of fun (especially on the eating side...). Many thanks indeed
for the opportunity!
> I was hoping (and still am, in fact) that we can finish the class work
> very soon now. As far as I can see, only the names-dates report is
> still missing, but that will hopefully come in soon (MatthewD,
> Laurent -- when do you think this will be ready?) I would like to ask
> the editors to work the remaining comments into the paper and present
> it to us, if possible within the next month.
>
I'm hoping they can go further, and implement all
the changes we agreed to; and maybe they'll need to
present some more to discuss
> Once we have that done, we might be ready to announce another
> prerelease (0.5?)
>
that needs to come out by the end of June, I'd say
> Another thought that came me on my (admittedly short) trip home.
> Wouldnt it be nice if TEI customizations could by itself be a module?
> That would allow immediate inclusion of other things (for example the
> new PERS stuff, but also EpiDoc for the sake of an example) into
> existing customizations.
>
can you explain what you mean a bit more? I don't
really see what you are asking for.
It is, by the way, possible to use the output of one
customization as input for another, if it amuses you.
Is that what you want to do?
--
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13 Banbury Road, Oxford OX2 6NN. Phone +44 1865 283431
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 09:24:54 EDT
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 14:30:39 +0100
Christian Wittern wrote:
>> (2) and (3) do not seem to be mutually exclusive. For the moment, we
>> have to consider that this will throw out a significant part of the
>> work we have done in the class struggle, which we will have to redo
>> then, by revisiting the reports and tcw07.
This does not make very happy :-{
But I think I disagree. We can solve the current dependency
issue James noted by adding a new class, and then we are back
stable again; and both the dependency Method and the
Birnbaum Method can be used to make the TEI better, not
fix existing problems.
> If it buys us a more convincing class system, I think I am willing to
> drop the other mechanisms. However, this is not purely a technically
> issue, so in due time we should present this issue to the board me
> thinks.
>
>
The Board will simply ask us what our technical recommendation
is!
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 10:17:26 -0400
There are some previous points in this discussion I may get to later,
but I think it is very important to correct right away what I
consider a grave error in Sebastian's presentation about this new
development.
There has an ongoing arch to this story line for some time now. Like
any good story, there is conflict. On one side, led by Sebastian, are
the forces trying to make P5 a more elegant, internally consistent,
easy to modify system. To this hard-working team the class system
represents a marvelous tool or solution, to be implemented even at
the cost of some of the constraints that could otherwise be
expressed.
On the other side are the forces, who include both me and David
Birnbaum, I believe, who believe that the constraints the Guidelines
describe are paramount -- if they can be correctly described with an
elegant, internally consistent, easy to modify system, great. But if
not, they should be expressed as is with a less elegant system.
The following corrections are an attempt to make sure the voices of
those who consider the constraints the Guidelines express to be
paramount are heard (even if eventually overruled).
> 1) uses classes, and introduce very relaxed content models which permit
> elements to repeat in unwanted ways
While this is the solution the corpus linguists just agreed to at our
Council meeting (i.e., our decision on
description folks are not so eager to throw away the structure they
are particularly interested in. Without the buy-in of the MS
description community (currently represented by David & Matthew),
this is not something we should pursue.
With some caveats that Sebastian already knows of (if he understood
my possibly inchorent mail :-), I think this is a Good Thing to Do
even though it does not, on its own, handle
> will be harder to guarantee schemas which don't have dangling
> links
I must admit I don't understand the "harder" part here, but I
personally think implementing module dependencies in the ODD system
is a good idea even if we (the TEI) choose not to use it. Any one of
the hundreds of other XML languages that will be expressing
themselves using our ODD system any day now may appreciate this
capability. :-)
4) Not fix the "problem", but rather document it: say "yes, in order
to use module A you also need to load module Y" and "yes, in order
change the content of element E you do have to get your hands
dirty with RelaxNG code".
> requires no new work.
And may be acceptable to solve this particular problem, but in the
long term, I think it is an extremely bad idea to have a policy of
decreasing the utility of the Guidelines in order to solve these
problems.
While I am not super fond of (4), it is *much* more acceptable than
(1).
> "suggests" links and tick an extra box by default.
Am I correct that what you intend here is that when a module M is
declared its
lists 0 or more other modules. Roma would then tick off the check
boxes for the other modules whenever M was selected? This is halfway
between (3) true syntactic dependency (you get an error if you select
M without one of its dependencies) and (4) just document it, and I
think may be a very good way to go.
> of dangling links.
I'm not sure I understand this.
> the non-ODD extension mechanism, ie using schema/dtd module
> fragments and combining them in a DTD subset or hand-written
> RelaxNG schema.
I am personally
* in favor of permitting non-ODD extensions in RelaxNG, although less
strongly so than I was 1 year ago in Paris (where, IIRC, I was the
only one in the room who thought such a mechanism was necessary;
some people (CW?) even thought it was a bad idea)
* against bothering to support extensions in other (non-ODD,
non-RelaxNG) languages, particularly DTD. (Yes, in 2002 or
thereabouts we decided, with Syd leading the charge, that
supporting DTD extensions was important. I have since reconsidered,
and think it is a complete and utter waste of TEI time and effort
to even think of it. I am also against bothering to support DTDs at
all, but there I think there are reasonable arguments on both sides
of the issue. But supporting DTD extesions seems all but silly.)
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 10:17:31 EDT
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 16:15:13 +0100
Syd Bauman wrote:
> On the other side are the forces, who include both me and David
> Birnbaum, I believe, who believe that the constraints the Guidelines
> describe are paramount
I believe in that too :-}
>> 2) use classes, with the proposed new meaning of what a "class" is
>>
>
> With some caveats that Sebastian already knows of (if he understood
> my possibly inchorent mail :-), I think this is a Good Thing to Do
> even though it does not, on its own, handle
>
what aspect of
>> 3) introduce and implement module dependencies, and accept that it
>> will be harder to guarantee schemas which don't have dangling
>> links
>>
>
> I must admit I don't understand the "harder" part here
If you add a dependency in "msdesc" on "namesdates",
but the user then deletes
you are no better off than you are now. Module
dependency is a crude tool. That's the main reason
I don't want to use it.
> but I
> personally think implementing module dependencies in the ODD system
> is a good idea even if we (the TEI) choose not to use it. Any one of
> the hundreds of other XML languages that will be expressing
> themselves using our ODD system any day now may appreciate this
> capability. :-)
>
sure. if you define what the precise behaviour of module dependency
is.
>
> Sebastian has not mentioned another solution:
>
> 4) Not fix the "problem", but rather document it: say "yes, in order
> to use module A you also need to load module Y"
that's module dependency...
> While I am not super fond of (4), it is *much* more acceptable than
> (1).
>
I don't disagree with that choice. But it leaves the TEI
making invalid schemas rather easily, as James found.
> Am I correct that what you intend here is that when a module M is
> declared its
> lists 0 or more other modules. Roma would then tick off the check
> boxes for the other modules whenever M was selected? This
yes
> is halfway
> between (3) true syntactic dependency (you get an error if you select
> M without one of its dependencies) and (4) just document it, and I
> think may be a very good way to go.
>
surely, I can do that. its just "people who bought this module
also bought module".
>
> of the issue. But supporting DTD extesions seems all but silly.)
>
>
I think I'd agree; but would note that supporting it
there is probably not much more work than in schema.
--
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 11:15:18 EDT
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 12:35:18 -0400
> what aspect of
I phrased that poorly. Of course
not as a single class, no matter how clever we make classes, they're
not content models.
The content model of
element msIdentifier {
att.global.attributes,
(
(
(
country?,
region?,
settlement,
institution?,
repository,
collection?,
idno?
)
| msName
),
( altIdentifier | msName )*
)
}
Note that in the inside set there
not optional, but everything else is.
> then deletes
> than you are now. Module dependency is a crude tool. That's the
> main reason I don't want to use it.
Ah, now I understand. This doesn't bother me because it is no
different than what happens when the user deletes a required child
element when the required child element is in the same module as the
parent. (It doesn't mean I don't think we should try to do something
nicer, it just means it's orthogonal to module dependency.)
> is.
I'm not sure how you're defining "behaviour" here. Is something
like "if a module depended on by an explicitly loaded module cannot
be found and loaded, an error condition should be raised and no
output (schema, reference doc, etc.) should be generated"
insufficient?
Well, yes, it's module dependency merely documented instead of properly
tool-enforced.
> invalid schemas rather easily, as James found.
Right, which is why I'm not so fond of it, and far prefer your
suggested 3.5 solution.
> bought module".
I'm imagining a little more forceful than that. I'm imagining "when
you buy this you get that for free" ... if you don't want 'that', you
have to explicitly say so.
> probably not much more work than in schema.
If you say so. Sometimes makes my head spin thinking of the stuff you
do. Although it's far worse today, as my head was already spinning
from jet-lag. :-)
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 12:35:22 EDT
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 17:51:26 +0100
There was an action on me to look at this subject.
a) Module "suggestions" are easy. Add a @suggests attribute to moduleSpec,
and the Roma interfaces will assist you in which modules come pre-selected.
They will not, however, stop you deselecting it. I see no reason not to
implement
this, but it does not gain a lot.
b) Module dependencies are slightly harder. You will not be able
to de-select modules which are marked with @depends (and there will
be a @depends on "core" and "tei" for all modules), and the command-line
programs will throw an error if you remove the lines. This takes us a
bit farther, at the cost of frustrating (some very few) people who
really do know
what they are doing. I can implement this if the Council decides it is
necessary.
c) Module dependency does not help element-level dependency.
Thus if
a dependency on namesdates on msdescription cannot guarentee
a result, because
namesdates. This can be solved by implementing a full schema check
which sorts out any dangling links (presumably possible to write this,
but I haven't tried).
So my personal conclusion is that b) does not really
buy us anything, since we have no current use for it,
while a) is a simple convenience we might as well put in.
c) _should_ be implemented, but I don't know how
at present.
Views?
--
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 12:51:36 EDT
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 17:51:57 +0100
Syd Bauman wrote:
>
> The content model of
>
> element msIdentifier {
> att.global.attributes,
> (
> (
> (
> country?,
> region?,
> settlement,
> institution?,
> repository,
> collection?,
> idno?
> )
> | msName
> ),
> ( altIdentifier | msName )*
> )
> }
>
> Note that in the inside set there
> not optional, but everything else is.
>
Yup. So I make an "optional sequence" class with the geographical
thangs in. Sorted (and yes, I have tested this).
>
> Ah, now I understand. This doesn't bother me because it is no
> different than what happens when the user deletes a required child
> element when the required child element is in the same module as the
> parent. (It doesn't mean I don't think we should try to do something
> nicer, it just means it's orthogonal to module dependency.)
>
>
yes, but module dependency pretends to solve this problem.
>
> 'm not sure how you're defining "behaviour" here. Is something
> like "if a module depended on by an explicitly loaded module cannot
> be found and loaded, an error condition should be raised and no
> output (schema, reference doc, etc.) should be generated"
> insufficient?
>
no, thats fine. I just don't really see when you'd use it
in the TEI. Have you got an example in mind?
msdescription/namesdates is NOT an example.
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 20:13:53 +0100
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>
> Yup. So I make an "optional sequence" class with the geographical
> thangs in. Sorted (and yes, I have tested this).
>
I must apologize! I am just plain old wrong. My solution
does not make "settlement" mandatory and the rest
optional. I don't have a way of doing that at all.
However, I believe that the MSDESCers last week accepted
a situation in which all the geographic thangs were ordered,
optional, but not repeatable.
--
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Received on Mon May 22 2006 - 15:14:00 EDT
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 20:22:39 +0100
Thinking about this as I walked home, I now see that forced module
dependency has
some point *when the user does not see it*. So if the core were split
into 5 segments,
inclusion of some or all could be forced behind the scenes when the
other modules
demand it. So the user would in that case not even know the modules
existed. However,
this precludes use in a user-hand-written schema or DTD subset.
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 12:01:04 +0100
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> c) Module dependency does not help element-level dependency.
> Thus if
> a dependency on namesdates on msdescription cannot guarentee
> a result, because
> namesdates. This can be solved by implementing a full schema check
> which sorts out any dangling links (presumably possible to write this,
> but I haven't tried).
>
> So my personal conclusion is that b) does not really
> buy us anything, since we have no current use for it,
> while a) is a simple convenience we might as well put in.
> c) _should_ be implemented, but I don't know how
> at present.
Can you explain to me again why it is a bad idea to just have element-level
dependency? I.e. the elementSpec gets a @depends so with msIdentifier it has a
@depends which includes settlement and repository (since they are unfortunately
and, I would argue wrongly, mandatory I believe). Thus when I add msDescription
module, any @depends in that are processed and it includes settlement from
names&dates module but not necessarily the entire module itself or could
include the module but only with the needed elements included. It doesn't get
rid of the need for modules as a grouping convenience or anything.
Back at work, but jetlagged (but not as much as if I hadn't had been upgraded to
first class!),
-James
(P.s. Some people were interested in my photos, they are at:
http://purl.org/cummings/family/images/Kyoto/ )
--
Dr James Cummings, Oxford Text Archive, University of Oxford
James dot Cummings at oucs dot ox dot ac dot uk
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Received on Tue May 23 2006 - 07:01:17 EDT
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 13:38:08 +0100
James Cummings wrote:
> Can you explain to me again why it is a bad idea to just have element-level
> dependency? I.e. the elementSpec gets a @depends so with msIdentifier it has a
> @depends which includes settlement and repository (since they are unfortunately
> and, I would argue wrongly, mandatory I believe).
>
Sure, you could do that, with a reasonable amount of work.
I can't recall off-hand why its a bad idea :-}
Then again you could analyze the content model and
work out the dependency automatically anyway.
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Received on Tue May 23 2006 - 08:38:13 EDT
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:24:33 -0400
> Sure, you could do that, with a reasonable amount of work. I can't
> recall off-hand why its a bad idea :-}
>
> Then again you could analyze the content model and work out the
> dependency automatically anyway.
I may be missing something obvious, here (after all, I'm so
jet-lagged I can barely stand, let alone walk -- but that's not a
complaint, Christian, I'd do it again in a heartbeat! :-) but why not
ask a validator to check this sort of thing for you? I don't know if
it's documented or not, but AFAIK just issueing `jing myTei.rng` will
do the job.
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Received on Tue May 23 2006 - 17:24:37 EDT
Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 23:01:59 +0100
Syd Bauman wrote:
> but why not
> ask a validator to check this sort of thing for you? I don't know if
> it's documented or not, but AFAIK just issueing `jing myTei.rng` will
> do the job.
>
Er, OK, but then what? Diagnosing that there is a problem
is nice, sure. But not half as nice as making sure there _is_
no problem.
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Received on Tue May 23 2006 - 18:02:06 EDT
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 02:49:49 -0400
> Er, OK, but then what? Diagnosing that there is a problem is nice,
> sure. But not half as nice as making sure there _is_ no problem.
I don't understand at all. They (the various suggestions on detecting
element level dependencies that are not met) seem equivalent to me.
1) If there is an element listed on depends= of
not declared, report an error rather than return a schema
2) Walk the tree of
which is not declared, report an error rather than return a schema
3) Generate the schema, and run it through a validator; if it is not
valid, report an error rather than return the schema (command-line
roma would need delete the invalid schema that had been generated)
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Received on Wed May 24 2006 - 02:49:54 EDT
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 08:50:19 +0100
Syd Bauman wrote:
> They (the various suggestions on detecting
> element level dependencies that are not met) seem equivalent to me.
>
I agree. The @depends on
be redundant, because one can analyze the content
model.
However, as I say, what then? If we go back to James'
situation with the current schemas, in which he
asked for msdesc but not namesdates, the end
result is a schema with dangling references. He knows
it's invalid, his parser told him so. So Roma should
have done something about it for him. A system which
lets you make mistakes and then just crows at you
saying "ha ha you fell into the trap, you lose" seems
pretty old-fashioned to me.
I want to write the content model for
in such a way as to make it _much_ harder to generate
invalid schemas. If we just want to report errors, lets
forget the class system and modules, and just write
content models which say exactly what we want.
I think we're going round in circles here :-}
--
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Received on Wed May 24 2006 - 03:50:26 EDT
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 08:50:48 +0100
I posed the question of whether we want the TEI to
extend the meaning of model classes beyond its
current meaning of a set of alternates. I believe
this to be a powerful tool; Lou has said he thinks
it's the way of the future; Syd has argued (unfortunately
not in a message to the Council - maybe you can repost
your thing about sets/lists here, Syd?) that it's a
slippery slope of confusion. Others cautiously say
it sounds like fun but aren't sure what the ramifications
are.
So what do the rest of you feel? do you
A. not understand the technical argument
B. not care, it's nerdy detail the editors should sort out
C. feel violently that this is bad technological change for change's sake
D. just _love_ the idea
E. think that the immediate problems it may solve can
be better dealt with another way, so we don't need
to decide.
Module dependencies and element dependencies are an
orthogonal issue, I think.
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Received on Wed May 24 2006 - 03:50:52 EDT
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:28:33 +0100
Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> So what do the rest of you feel? do you
>
> A. not understand the technical argument
> B. not care, it's nerdy detail the editors should sort out
> C. feel violently that this is bad technological change for change's sake
> D. just _love_ the idea
> E. think that the immediate problems it may solve can
> be better dealt with another way, so we don't need
> to decide.
F. I care, and believe it to be a good idea, but would like to see more
explanation of how it works.
> Module dependencies and element dependencies are an
> orthogonal issue, I think.
Agreed.
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Received on Wed May 24 2006 - 04:28:36 EDT
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 04:36:30 -0400
> I posed the question of whether we want the TEI to extend the
> meaning of model classes beyond its current meaning of a set of
> alternates. ... Syd has argued (unfortunately not in a message to
> the Council - maybe you can repost your thing about sets/lists
> here, Syd?) that it's a slippery slope of confusion.
Not quite an accurate representation of my (not very well-formed)
opinion. I think extending the capability of classes is a Good Thing,
with a caveat.
Classes that behave differently must be named differently. *Must*.
That means the system has to enforce it, we can't rely on the editors
to do it right. Your current suggestion, Sebastian, if I have it
right, is to have a methods= attribute on
each
one class for each distinct value of methods=, something like as
follows:
value of methods= class looks like class name
----- -- -------- ----- ----- ---- ----- ----
[none,default,always] a | b | c C
sequence a, b, c C.seq
sequence-optional a?, b?, c? C.seq-opt
sequence-repeatable a+, b+, c+ C.seq-rep
sequence-repeatable-optional a*, b*, c* C.seq-opt-rep
I think this is fine. I think even better would be to skip the
methods= attribute, and just generate all 5 classes for every class
declared, but that's a minor difference that can be hammered out.
What I think is a slippery slope leading eventually to fire and
brimstone coming down from the skies; rivers and seas boiling; 40
years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanoes; the dead rising from the
grave; human sacrifice; dogs and cats, living together; mass hysteria
-- sorry, got carried away -- is that two different classes would
behave entirely differently when accessed similarly (i.e., when named
the same). I.e. having
model.C = a | b | c
model.D = x, y, z
is icky, whereas having
model.C = a | b | c
model.D.seq = x, y, z
is lovely. That is what I thought you were recommending at first,
which is why I cried foul. The current suggestion is going to be a
rarely used but very powerful capability.
methods -- the order would be the order in which the
occur in ... in the combined P5 source and customization ODD? What if
I want to add element E to class C in my customization: is it added
in the spot where E is declared in the P5 source, or where I change
that declaration to include
be nice to give me control. I just haven't thought of a reasonable
way to do that, though.
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Received on Wed May 24 2006 - 04:36:39 EDT
Date: Wed, 24 May 2006 09:37:31 +0100
James Cummings wrote:
> Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
>
>> So what do the rest of you feel? do you
>>
>> A. not understand the technical argument
>> B. not care, it's nerdy detail the editors should sort out
>> C. feel violently that this is bad technological change for change's sake
>> D. just _love_ the idea
>> E. think that the immediate problems it may solve can
>> be better dealt with another way, so we don't need
>> to decide.
>>
>
> F. I care, and believe it to be a good idea, but would like to see more
> explanation of how it works.
>
thats A, then :-}
OK:
model.foo, with members a, b and c,
has a
"generate='alternate sequence sequenceOptional'".
On processing that generates three patterns/entities:
model.foo = a | b | c
model.foo.sequence = a, b, c
model.foo.sequenceOptional = a?, b?, c?
in the content model for any given element you can choose which of these
patterns to refer to.
There are two downsides:
a) in RELAXNG, it is idiomatic to say
model.foo |= bar
to extend model.foo with the bar element as an alternate.
Obviously if you say model.foo.sequence | = bar you end up
with
a, b, c | bar
which is not what you meant :-}
Answer: our class models are not RELAXNG patterns which are extensible
b) the order of a, b, and c is determined by the order
in which they are declared in the source ODD
(ie the source of P5)