Re: [sixties-l] Todd Gitlin on the war (fwd)

From: monkerud (
Date: Tue Nov 13 2001 - 11:42:38 EST

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    Well Marty we can disagree over this, but essentially I see Gitlin as
    becoming more and more conservative as each year passes... the
    problem is that it started when he reached 30 (hold on there! just

    His criticism of the left for not rallying around the flag and
    "claiming" patriotism for our own struck me as only slightly to the
    left of Rush Limbaugh. And now I'm criticized for not taking his
    arguments seriously?

    Something has changed since Vietnam to make Gitlin's arguments
    serious? When I feel that I can trust the government, that the FBI
    and CIA have fundamentally changed, that those who run the corporate
    power structures are now tretding everyone fairly and providing jobs
    and livelihoods to their workers, when our military stops propping up
    corrupt regimes around the work that brutalize their citizens, when
    we stop sending our army to oppress uprisings in South and Central
    America, when start trading with Cuba ... get the idea?

    When you can show me that these things have changed and that we have
    a new America, then I'll consider becoming patriotic and rallying
    around the flag.

    In the meantime I will shy away from rallying around the flag that
    Gitlin wraps himself in and I won't take his so called criticism
    seriously. Damned called me narrow minded.

    best, Don

    >What's this, the gang of two or the gang of four has read Gitlin out of the
    >movement; not that he'd care. But the movement never spoke with one voice,
    >despite the efforts of those who believed it only spoke properly in their
    >voice. Gitlin comes out of a similar experience as most veterans of the
    >sixties and has always, to my mind, been thoughtful even if sometimes right
    >or sometimes wrong. A movement that can't take criticism, much less read
    >it, is already brain dead; a cadaver rather than a movement.
    >Marty Jezer
    >----- Original Message -----
    >From: monkerud <>
    >To: <>
    >Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 9:00 PM
    >Subject: Re: [sixties-l] Todd Gitlin on the war (fwd)
    >> Mark,
    >> The whole point here was that Gitlin was criticizing the left in his
    >> article and evaluating what the left did or didn't do. Now we could
    >> take criticism from David Horowitz and his ilk too, but what's the
    >> point.
    >> My point was that he has no influence and is isolated, so whatever he
    >> has to say about the left comes from the outside and not really a
    >> fraternal debate...
    >> best, Don
    >> >--- monkerud <> wrote:
    >> >> I have to agree with Jeff, particularily to the extent, "who cares?"
    >> >> Gitlin hasn't had any influence in the left since about 1971... I saw
    >> >> him around that time in San Francisco for an evening and he had had
    >> >> an emotional breakdown because he had become isolated from the
    >> >> movement. Does anyone take him seriously anymore, or did they ever?
    >> >>
    >> >> best, Don
    >> >
    >> >It seems odd to me that both Don and Jeff are more interested in
    >> >whether Gitlin is a "part of the movement," than they are in evaluating
    >> >analysis. Does his "influence in the left" have any bearing on the
    >> >truth to his
    >> >arguments?
    >> >
    >> >M
    >> >
    >> >__________________________________________________
    >> >Do You Yahoo!?
    >> >Find a job, post your resume.
    >> >

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