5.0266 Number Words, Mostly French (5/90)

Elaine Brennan & Allen Renear (EDITORS@BROWNVM.BITNET)
Wed, 31 Jul 1991 19:53:05 EDT

Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 5, No. 0266. Wednesday, 31 Jul 1991.

(1) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 11:03:01 GMT (9 lines)
From: Christopher Currie (IHR) <THRA004@MVS.ULCC.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: 5.0257 Number Words - The Teens

(2) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 09:45:06 EDT (23 lines)
From: Eric Rabkin <USERGDFD@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject: French counting

(3) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 10:30:20 EDT (15 lines)
From: Eric Rabkin <USERGDFD@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject: More of French counting 70-99

(4) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 14:42 EDT (13 lines)
From: Michel LENOBLE <LENOBLEM@umtlvr.bitnet>
Subject: Re: 5.0257 Number Words

(5) Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 13:27:58 GMT (30 lines)
From: UTAD005@MVS.ULCC.AC.UK
Subject: 5.0246 Number Words -- The Teens

(1) --------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 11:03:01 GMT
From: Christopher Currie (IHR) <THRA004@MVS.ULCC.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: 5.0257 Number Words - The Teens

The real question is why Standard French goes mad after 69. In eastern
dialects (Walloon, Swiss French) they sensibly have septante, octante and
nonante.

Christopher

(2) --------------------------------------------------------------27----
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 09:45:06 EDT
From: Eric Rabkin <USERGDFD@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject: French counting

Re Gordon Dohle's inquiry about counting in French from 70
to 99, my understanding is that French French uses 60+17 for
77 and (4x20)+11 for 91 but this is a vestige of an older
system that echoes in the English word "score," counting by
twenties. Belgian French uses septante in place of
soixante-dix and nonante in place of quatre-vingt-dix and
I've heard some Swiss French speakers follow the Belgian
model. I gather that the Revolutionaries tried to
rationalize the numbering system but had no longer-lasting
luck than they did with the month names. On the other hand,
they did get the metric system going. (I can't really vouch
for the history, never having really studied it formally. I
can vouch for the current practices of native speakers,
having heard them.)

Eric Rabkin esrabkin@umichum.bitnet
Department of English esrabkin@um.cc.umich.edu
University of Michigan office: 313-764-2553
Ann Arbor MI 48109-1045 dept : 313-764-6330

(3) --------------------------------------------------------------19----
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 10:30:20 EDT
From: Eric Rabkin <USERGDFD@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject: More of French counting 70-99

Karl Menninger's *Number Words and Number Symbols* (thanks again,
Willard!) discusses counting by twenties in numerous places. Of
most interest probably are pp. 66-68 wherein he explains the
counting-by-twenties in French as arising in the 11th c. with
the Normans, they already having had such a system in common
use, including the word 'skor'.

Eric Rabkin esrabkin@umichum.bitnet
Department of English esrabkin@um.cc.umich.edu
University of Michigan office: 313-764-2553
Ann Arbor MI 48109-1045 dept : 313-764-6330

(4) --------------------------------------------------------------18----
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 91 14:42 EDT
From: Michel LENOBLE <LENOBLEM@umtlvr.bitnet>
Subject: Re: 5.0257 Number Words; BC/BCE (2/25)

As far as french numerals are concerned (70 and 90) one should keep in
mind that french, as other languages in fact, had a vigesimal numerical
system (base 20). One trace of it is the old parisian hospital containing
300 beds and called "L'hopital des qinze vingt". More over not every francophone
uses soixante et onze; septante and nonante are currently sed in Belgium and
in some parts of France.

Michel Lenoble.

(5) --------------------------------------------------------------42----
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 13:27:58 GMT
From: UTAD005@MVS.ULCC.AC.UK
Subject: 5.0246 Number Words -- The Teens

Gordon Dohle asks why French abandons "rational progression of numbering at
69 and move first to 60 plus ten, plus eleven, etc and then confusingly
jumps to four times twenty, and then four times twenty plus ten, plus eleven,
etc."

I've always understood this to be a remnant of Gaulish influence on French -
the system of counting in units of 20 is a feature of the Celtic languages.
In Welsh, for example, 30 is ten-on-twenty, 31 is eleven-on-twenty, 40 is
two-twenties, 60 is three-twenties, 80 is four-twenties (pedwar ugain, cf.
French quatre-vingts).

BTW, Welsh teens are fairly complicated: 11 is one-on-ten, 12 is two-ten,
13 is three-on-ten, 14 is four-on-ten, 15 is five-ten, 16 is one-on-five-ten,
17 is two-on-five-ten, 18 is two-nines, 19 is four-on-five-ten. These numbers
combine with the units of twenties mentioned above, so that a number like 97
for example, is: dau ar bymtheg ar bedwar ugain (two-on-five-ten-on-four-
twenties). Simple really, and I can't understand why this system hasn't been
more widely adopted.

There is, though, another system of counting in Welsh intended to "simplify"
the above method. But I think its only complicated matters by giving people
two systems to learn instead of one.

Michael Morgan
Heythrop College
University of London