4.1135 "Mother Of ..." (5/114)
Elaine Brennan & Allen Renear (EDITORS@BROWNVM.BITNET)
Thu, 7 Mar 91 17:30:44 EST
Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 4, No. 1135. Thursday, 7 Mar 1991.
(1) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1991 8:54:38 GMT+0300 (30 lines)
From: LBJUDY@VMSA.TECHNION.AC.IL
Subject: RE: 4.1123 ... "Mother Of"
(2) Date: 07 Mar 91 10:44:58 gmt (16 lines)
From: K.P.Donnelly@edinburgh.ac.uk
Subject: Re: "MOTHER OF"
(3) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 91 11:29:07 GMT (42 lines)
From: DEL2@phoenix.cambridge.ac.uk
Subject: Re: [4.1123 ... "Mother Of" ]
(4) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 91 17:09:09 PST (19 lines)
From: cbf@athena.berkeley.edu (Charles Faulhaber)
Subject: Re: 4.1123 ... "Mother Of"
(5) Date: Mon, 04 Mar 91 20:16:02 EST (7 lines)
From: William Crossgrove <WMCROSS@BROWNVM>
Subject: Re: 4.1123 ... 'Mother Of'
(1) --------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 1991 8:54:38 GMT+0300
From: LBJUDY@VMSA.TECHNION.AC.IL
Subject: RE: 4.1123 ... "Mother Of"
Re: Mark Turner's remarks on mothers. Let me internationalize the
discussion (I'm sure a lot of Semiticists out there will also
contribute this point): I automatically assumed, on hearing the
phrase "mother of battles", that it derived from a mistranslation
of Saddam's phrase in Arabic, by either his staff or the journalists.
In Hebrew, and by extension I assume probably also in Arabic, the
expression "mother of ..." means "the one that has priority" (usually
in size or importance though possibly also in date). E.g. "em haderech",
lit. "the mother of the road" or "the mother road" means "the main
highway", i.e. the biggest OR most important road around. "Em
hamoshavot" -- the first moshav (no suggestion that the others
were established by settlers who moved from that one). Thus
"em hamilhamot"-- "the mother of wars/battles" is understood as
"the biggest/most important battle ever". In Hebrew this particular
phrase is new, and due to you-know- who; nonetheless it's immediately
understandable in that sense, because of the already long-established
usage. If you take Saddam's phrase and translate it literally into
English rather than Hebrew, it's much less understandable. Of course
it is still understandable, otherwise nobody would have left it
translated literally; but the original metaphor, being less familiar,
becomes much more obvious ("in what sense can a battle be said to be
a mother...?").
Despite which I found Mark's remarks enlightening and great fun.
Judy Koren
(2) --------------------------------------------------------------26----
Date: 07 Mar 91 10:44:58 gmt
From: K.P.Donnelly@edinburgh.ac.uk
Subject: Re: "MOTHER OF"
Re phrases like "Mother of all battles". A similar idea which is very
common in Irish Gaelic is found in phrases like
"Ni raibh cogadh go dti e"
lit. "There wasn't a war until it"
"It was the mother of all wars"
or
"Ni raibh seoltoir go dti e"
lit. "There wasn't a sailor until him"
"There was never before a sailor to compare with him"
Kevin Donnelly
(3) --------------------------------------------------------------52----
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 91 11:29:07 GMT
Subject: Re: [4.1123 Words: "Mother Of" ]
Glad though I am that Mark Turner is analysing the metaphors of
motherhood, I respectfully suggest that he do a little more thinking and
reading before he leaps into print. In its motherland(!) the phrase
"mother of Parliaments" is reserved for the _british parliamentary
system_ and not applied to the country. Thus it is, in origin at least,
closer to his "Latin is the mother of Italian" example than to "Filth is
the mother of stench".
A couple of other points in the puff also give me pause.
> Derivative nodes must be "daughter" rather
> than "son" nodes because they in turn can serve as "mother" nodes.
Doesn't that depend on what the metaphor is truing to say? Can a modern
academic, albeit an Associate Professor of English, decree what our
foremothers _must_ have done, or forbid what our sons may do? Anyone
playing with Oedipus ideas or militarism may well want to use the
biblical phrase "a mother of sons".
> In the common cultural model of mother
How sure of we of the commonality of culture? Later he says
> There is a system to imagination. At times, it seems as if cultural
> difference is such a barrier as never to be penetrated. But you would
> not think so to hear the phrases exchanged in international
> conversation. Saddam Hussein, Dick Cheney, and Tom Brokaw all think
> they know what a mother is.
They may think it, but if you look at the (presumable) content of
the various metaphors, they are clearly saying different things.
Sorry, but I think the use of this catch phrase by these people
says more about their sense of humour(?) and poverty of communication
skills than about the "system to imagination" or the 'prototypic"
mother metaphor.
Douglas de Lacey,
University of Cambridge.
(4) --------------------------------------------------------------28----
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 91 17:09:09 PST
From: cbf@athena.berkeley.edu (Charles Faulhaber)
Subject: Re: 4.1123 Words: "Mother Of"; 1st Year Students; Children (4/124)
I doubt very much whether the "mother of all battles " has anything at
all to do with the metaphorical concepts mentioned by Mark Turner and
rather more to do with metaphorical expessions in Arabic based on
kinship relations. E.g., a "son of the night" is a thief, and the
Spanish loan translation from Arabic
"hidalgo < hijo de algo"
lit. 'son of possessions' originally meant "rich man" and has come
to mean "noble."
My first reaction to "mother of all battles" is that this was
very noticeably NOT a European coinage. Can any semiticists
comment?
Charles Faulhaber
UC Berkeley
(5) --------------------------------------------------------------11----
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 91 20:16:02 EST
From: William Crossgrove <WMCROSS@BROWNVM>
Subject: Re: 4.1123 Words: 'Mother Of'; 1st Year Students;
So are we to conclude that persuasive necessity is the mother of
rhetorical invention? Or is polemical intention the mother of
metaphorical excessity?