4.0706 Death and Loss of Name (4/109)

Elaine Brennan & Allen Renear (EDITORS@BROWNVM.BITNET)
Tue, 13 Nov 90 09:31:49 EST

Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 4, No. 0706. Tuesday, 13 Nov 1990.


(1) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 90 11:43 EST (17 lines)
From: Jim Wilderotter <WILDER@GUVAX>
Subject: RE: Death and loss of name

(2) Date: Wed, 7 Nov 90 10:12:56 MST (34 lines)
From: koontz@alpha.bldr.nist.gov (John E. Koontz)
Subject: Re: 4.0695 ... Death and Loss of Name

(3) Date: Wed, 07 Nov 90 13:57:13 EST (28 lines)
From: Judith Schrier <PY701010@BROWNVM>
Subject: Re: 4.0695 Queries

(4) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 90 11:00:39 EST (30 lines)
From: dgn612@csc2.anu.edu.au (David Nash)
Subject: 4.0695 Queries

(1) --------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 90 11:43 EST
From: Jim Wilderotter <WILDER@GUVAX>
Subject: RE: Death and loss of name

I have heard of some religions/cultures (which ones I can not remember
at present) where the name of the dead person is not used to refer to
them after death.

I *can* tell you that two writers, Tolkien and Fiest (science fiction /
fantasy writers), have made use of this belief when they wrote about the
elven culture.

I'm not sure, but I think that one of the cultures was a tribe of
American Indians.

Jim Wilderotter
Georgetown Center for Text and Technology
(2) --------------------------------------------------------------46----
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 90 10:12:56 MST
From: koontz@alpha.bldr.nist.gov (John E. Koontz)
Subject: Re: 4.0695 ... Death and Loss of Name

In regard to Kessler's query on names.

I think that the quotation "There's a man going round, taking names"
means, "There's a man going round making a list of names." That, at
least, is what it means to me out of context.

My interpretation of the Poe line is that Lenore is nameless among the
living because she is not present to be named (called).

I have never heard of an American or British equation of death with loss
of name.

On the other hand, among the Omaha and Ponca of the American Prairie
Peninsula region, and, I assume among other North American groups, at
least in the vicinity, male names are clan property, and one can only
use a name while living. Once you are dead, "your" name is available
for reuse, though I know of some old instances of using a deceased's
name to refer to him or her. One can also discard a name without dying.
In some recorded instances, a man discarded "his" name to take up a
prestigious name that had become available because the user had died.

I don't know to what extent this is still practiced. The Omaha-Ponca
language is falling into disuse, and everyone now has "English names" in
addition to Omaha (or Ponca) names. Some younger people don't have an
Omaha (or Ponca) name.

Note that the general principles on when it is appropriate to use a name
in reference or address differ substantially from those in American
English.

(3) --------------------------------------------------------------33----
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 90 13:57:13 EST
From: Judith Schrier <PY701010@BROWNVM>
Subject: Re: 4.0695 Queries

> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 90 10:48:00 EST
> From: Michael_Kessler.Hum@mailgate.sfsu.edu
> Subject: Death and loss of name

> references to the suggestion of the loss of one's name upon dying:
> "whom the angels name Lenore, nameless here for evermore" _The Raven_
> "There's a man going round, taking names" unidentified spiritual
> She wonders if this loss is based on a general belief. Is it uniquely
> American or also British?

I have wondered about Lenore, but I doubt if the poem is based
on any "general belief" about loss of name with death. Poe wrote
a much-republished essay about writing The Raven, in which he claims
to have chosen just about everything in it "for effect", including
the name of Lenore, with its drawn out, "ghostly" oh sound. I don't
really remember any details, but I would think he made her nameless
just for the lonely feeling it gives...

The Man taking names was making a list of those who were to die.
That is, he is taking *down* the names. I don't think there's any
implication that he's *removing* the names from the individuals.

Or on the other hand, maybe I'm wrong.
j
(4) --------------------------------------------------------------44----
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 90 11:00:39 EST
From: dgn612@csc2.anu.edu.au (David Nash)
Subject: 4.0695 Queries (8/165)

In response to the query:
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 90 10:48:00 EST
From: Michael_Kessler.Hum@mailgate.sfsu.edu
Subject: Death and loss of name

I immodestly refer the inquirer to a paper I did (jointly with Jane
Simpson):
1981. '"No-name" in central Australia', pp. 165-77 in _Papers from
the Parasession on Language and Behavior_, ed. by Carrie S. Masek et
al. Chicago: Chicago Linguistic Society.
which is one of many references recording the intimate links between
name, identity, and death, in Aboriginal Australia. Among many
central Australian Aboriginal languages, there is a noun (e.g.
/kumunjayi/ in Warlpiri) which is used just to replace the
(unspeakable) personal name of a recently deceased person, or any
other word which sounds like the name. These terms have no synchronic
analysis, and no other function. (There are name-avoidance parallels
outside Australia, which no doubt others will respond with, but I do
not know of specific replacement terms outside of Australia; I would
like to hear of such if others know of such.)

David Nash
Australian Institute of Aboriginal Studies (AIATSIS)
GPO Box 553 Fax: (06)2497310
Canberra ACT 2601, Australia
AARNet: dgn612@csc2.anu.oz.au